beta-discussion

[shut patio]

Okay, so the music shope thingy might be confidential. I'll keep mum. Sorry mods. 😭 Don't throw me to the king of Eden. I want to kindnap more moffs and live a happy life. 🫂❤️

[hollow compass]

It's not confidential. If it doesn't exist in beta currently and you saw someone using it somehow, then that was not through legitimate means.

[drowsy fiber]

I haven't seen your message, but the music shop itself doesn't seem confidential to me, it's in a quest cutscene after all...

[shut patio]

I'll dm you. If that's okay.

[drowsy fiber]

I'd prefer not getting random dms. Also, what you sent me was most likely hacked, so it's best to report to TGC (if you have a link or so) and move on, and not spread it.

[shut patio]

Okay. I'll do as you said. Thank you

[dusk widget]

@fallow delta (includes spoiler for the next season) ||maybe wait for the next season to come to live, since we get a hairstyle similar to the origin Owl Hairstyle, a lot of people will get this one in the next months... well, if you can wait for that long ||

[fallow delta]

Oh
Next season
I really need this og owl hair asap

[glacial storm]

*maybe two more months cuz the hair is the final ult

[dusk widget]

It's really really close to the curent one tho

[fallow delta]

Well, if anyone in beta has the hair, are they able to do my fit req?

[tawdry pine]

We can't honor outfit requests

[fallow delta]

Wdym

[stuck rose]

Prohibited

[fast skiff]

beta is por testing not to fulfill outfit requests, see pins of #beta-screenshots-videos

[fallow delta]

I hate that

[dusk widget]

You'll find someone, I promise

[glacial storm]

So... Asteroid Jacket is gone?

[dusk widget]

From lil prince?

[tawdry pine]

It's been gone since the season ended

[glacial storm]

Lol no
I got it, it been in my closet forever
I just checked it and it gone

[glacial storm]

Yea

[tawdry pine]

You may want to bug report that-

Don't expect to have it back cause ✨ beta ✨ offers no compensation like live

[glacial storm]

Is it possible tgc remove it for a while cuz the bug where people keep spamming it

[dusk widget]

Well, mine is still there

[glass spoke]

mine too to beta bugs channel you go

[tawdry pine]

Possibly!

[glacial storm]

But the fact they still got it
Do u still have urs?

[dusk widget]

[glass spoke]

did you perhaps spam it yourself?

[dusk widget]

Maybe... you oversee it in your closet?

Or it's just glitched

[glacial storm]

I didn't spam it cuz I'm not that kind person ya know

No, I remember checking on it when people said the bug occurs

[glass spoke]

i wasn't assuming anything don't worry let me reload and check it again

yup, still there for me

[glacial storm]

Bruh
Anyway I already report it

[ancient pike]

Does anyone have a schedule for the seasons? As I understand it, they happen in a loop. (Is this wrong? Please correct me if it's wrong.)

[tawdry pine]

A loop?

[fast skiff]

as far as I’m aware, there is none

[drowsy fiber]

Events ("Days of ...") happen in a 1 year long loop, seasons don't repeat.

[ancient pike]

Oh okay
Must've been what I was thinking of. ._.

[cursive tinsel]

We do get 4 seasons a year that kind of happen roughly every 3 months
January (ish)
April (ish)
July (ish)
September/October/November (ish)

[tribal walrus]

the next one should begin mid to late april but no confirmation yet

[final garden]

So if the diving ability will be granted to new players after reaching Forest, will older players still be able to get the diving ability from Treasure Reef after Abyss ends?

[naive solar]

Huh?

[final garden]

How will players who didn't get the diving ability during Abyss get the diving ability after?

[naive solar]

I'm very lost, where did you get this information

[craggy elbow]

the diving ability is there to stay

[final garden]

Diving ability is now granted to new players after reaching Hidden Forest
This is from #beta-announcements

[iron elbow]

I was also wondering how will it work. I assume the manta custscene will be irrelevant

[final garden]

I haven't gotten the diving ability or done any of the seasonal quests in live, so if I don't get the ability before the season ends, I'm just not sure where that leaves my Sky kid

[desert token]

you get the diving ability automatically once you reach forest now (oh I’m dumb and didn’t read above lol)

[final garden]

Yeah, but my live kid did that long ago

[stark yew]

wouldn't it just automatically be added anyways? just anyone who has been to forest can now dive no matter how long it's been since you did get to forest

[desert token]

I think that’s how it should work, though I don’t know if anyone has tested it. I doubt they would implement this if it had the potential to lock people out of diving at all

[tiny tinsel]

you can still go get the diving ability from the manta without doing the quests too. i assume you’ll just have it automatically though after the season ends? i haven’t heard about this

[cobalt jacinth]

That manta initiation cutscene was/is beautiful anyway, it was just at a less noticeable place

[desert token]

I don’t know if there will even be a cutscene now

afaik there is not one required for gaining the diving ability for accounts created after this change to how you get it

[final garden]

I'm not sure how I'd feel about my Sky kid suddenly being able to dive upon my getting the 0.17.0 update. I would hope that I'd still need to go through the cutscene, since I'm not a newer player

I feel like Treasure Reef would be more confusing to navigate without that cutscene. Like, the boat drops you off near that cave and not really anywhere near the quest giver, so your instinct might be to go into the cave. But if nothing's there, then...

[tiny tinsel]

also if you don’t know about diving it doesn’t really make sense to try and look for something under water to trigger a diving prompt…

[desert token]

by that point you should have encountered water - in sanctuary for instance. I feel like the bareness of the above ground is just another way to hint that you have to look deeper - literally

[tiny tinsel]

that does make sense, also assuming even if you hadn’t directly encountered water somehow if you found the quest giver at the reef you’d definitely get the hint somehow

[desert token]

my first instinct was to fly straight over the cave - leading me to miss the diving ability for like 30 minutes. I feel like it is even harder to guess that you need to “gain” the diving ability or even know it exists than it is to naturally explore your way around. that’s just my perspective though

[cursive tinsel]

Did they say they were getting rid of the manta in abyss though? Or just auto adding the ability from forest?

[final garden]

Diving ability is now granted to new players after reaching Hidden Forest
This is all they said

[tawdry pine]

my flowchart is ruined smh
Well, at least now the issue of missing the diving ability on its entirety is fixed

[cursive tinsel]

I had read that as they are keeping manta cave ( which also links to manta cutscene in the final abyss quest) but just adding the skill beforehand so you don't miss it

[tiny tinsel]

i’d assume your sky kid would already have it then

[final garden]

With the cutscene, you mean?

[cursive tinsel]

Hopefully but I'd need a new moth account to check

[south parrot]

Guys, is the ug cape will got some changes later on? Because i think it will be better if the cape would have a season of performance icon in the back of the cape, just like abyss ug cape

[tawdry pine]

You leave #beta-feedback! I would love for the ult capes to follow Abyss' "I have my season icon as star shape"

[drowsy fiber]

No one except maybe TGC knows... It's best to send feedback...

[south parrot]

Okay thanks for the info

[vapid briar]

where's the notthatdeepfam when i need it?

no changes are being made to the abyss quests. after 17.0 for the first quest, you will technically have the diving ability already and you will just kinda be going through the motions to complete the first quest.

we understand there's a bit of a storytelling disconnect there, but we don't want newer players to be blocked from enjoying content in earlier levels before reaching wasteland, or before slogging through older content to enjoy what is now a core ability.

it's no different than the first shared space in the treehouse required you to complete the assembly story quests, but other shared spaces do not require going through those quests to enjoy that feature

sometimes time you have invoke a little suspension of disbelief to bridge the gap between narrative and game mechanics.

[drowsy fiber]

Thanks for explaining Ktjn - 3 Krill in a Trenchcoat! That makes sense 🙂

[spark lance]

Ehe whats wafo again?

[drowsy fiber]

an abbreviation for "wait and find out "

[velvet vector]

why's the abyss guide at homespace in the ts spot?

[vapid briar]

bug

[velvet vector]

thanks for the clarification

[late berry]

So did anyone notice they removed the ult hair shine ?
Is it a bug or..?

[agile hazel]

Diving ability is now granted to new players after reaching Hidden Forest
flashbacks to all the ice rink arguments

[late berry]

Yay

[final garden]

So, if I don't get the diving ability now, I'll just log in one day and have it?

[vapid briar]

yep

[final garden]

Alright, thanks for clearing that up

Any updates on the missing winged light in Shipwreck?

[vapid briar]

i put them back this morning. it'll likely be a bit until that's available on beta though

[final garden]

That's great to hear! Final question: How's your week going?

[vapid briar]

wait i have a better answer

https://tenor.com/view/liz-lemon-wednesday-what-a-week-gif-15777803

alrighty, back to my cave!

[final garden]

It was nice seeing ya, Ktjn! Thanks for the answers

[shrewd needle]

Has rocket been modified? When I try doing it with friends now, any friends holding hands lose grip and cannot be dragged along.

[drowsy fiber]

Rocket was never intentioned so I doubt there'd be any official announcement. It did get crashy for me...

[viscid sundial]

Whenever I try to do rocket the game crashes for me :/

[shrewd needle]

But we have had rocket for so long, it feels integral, especially for helping friends and getting OOB.

[karmic field]

May I ask what rocket even is?? I have seen that term couple times now and have absolutely 0 idea what that is

[twin isle]

Both offer piggy at same time to each other and both accept at same time and you shoot up into the air super fast

[karmic field]

Thank you for replying

[lilac forge]

I think I know what I'm gonna play soon with E-guitar

Hint:
Epilogue
1993 - 2021
🙌🏻🔺️

[dire escarp]

OMG the startup crashing bug is solved for me at least, thank you for all the hard work TGC!
💪

[shy ore]

Lemme guess, Android 8 bug from BETA or LIVE?

[dire escarp]

Beta, Oddly I never experienced any in live

[lilac forge]

Answer:
Daft Punk
🤖

[dire escarp]

sometimes time you have invoke a little suspension of disbelief to bridge the gap between narrative and game mechanics.

Think of it as we sacrificed ourselves in the abyss to teach the world to swim ❤️🏊‍♂️

[gilded parrot]

How many kids could a skykid kid if a skykid could kid kids?

[lilac forge]

This is how Terminator exist

[hard bear]

I just finally got my invisible cape 🥳😭 took me a while but I got it! 🙌

[lilac forge]

Have you write it on #beta-bugs-android or #beta-bugs-ios ?

[pine holly]

To be honest, I like the third version of season of the performance of the ultimated hair！

[west hinge]

damn tho, it's not just about the story disconnect, it's also about the idea that you earn abilities through traveling to places like abyss, it makes that travel to abyss as a moth valuable

if someone doesn't have the dive ability and sees someone else do it, they can and should just ask a vet how they did that who will tell them where to get it!

if it really locks them out of days of nature that much, then maybe consider some kind of special shrine in sanctuary that moths can go to for.... idk, a temporary diving ability that only works while they're in sanct?

the only other option is removing the ability to dive from people who havent went to abyss, but only after days of nature.
this obviously cant be done cos itll be rude to the moths who will be even more confused but even so

that really does kinda suck, i really hope there was effort at least and alternative methods were at least considered

because the solutions used for many problems (afk at social, shadow prince) have just so often felt like the easy way out

i know that's necessary, but i can still be frustrated about it

[vapid briar]

imagine trying to make the game more approachable for new people who didn't live through the abyss content in real time as it was released.

it does zero good to make things harder for a new person to "get ready" to jump into the game

[west hinge]

because its honestly a lot bigger than the treehouse shared space example you used

a majority of the entire emotional output created by the interaction with the upgrade manta, is it's call to make us dive

if im a moth entering abyss with the dive ability already attached, there's a high chance i wouldnt even enter the cave, and just jump off the boat and go wild lol

[vapid briar]

the thing is you're looking at the problem with your lived experience and perspective as a player. we look at it from the perspective of someone coming in with a blank slate, with no expectations.

[west hinge]

yeah, exactly, i am a player, i was the moth

in fact, ive been bodied in this chat before at the beginning of abyss in beta because i argued the same thing you are now; that we shouldnt need abyss to give us the dive ability, and i got very realistic arguments

[vapid briar]

what benefit do you find in forcing someone to jump through a lot of hoops in order to join their friends?

[west hinge]

the benefit of how emotionally powerful that interaction with the manta was

ig it doesnt mean much then tho

and the other benefit i also mentioned of making it feel like something you tacked on, something you earned through travel and exploration, through hopping on that boat you never noticed in wasteland social until now

[olive tide]

hmmm it seems like a tough issue. but historically, sky has been based on friendship; while emotional experiences are nice to have, being able to participate in friendship activities may be more valuable in the context of sky

[zenith mist]

i think a year from now people are going to have way more trouble finding the dive ability than while abyss is the current season. as a moth it took me forever to come across any of the seasonal areas, and sky doesn't really have any other unlockable abilities so what they have to do would seem unclear. it's unfortunate but its honestly the best solution

[vapid briar]

think about how people struggle with the spell shop when it's not at the boat in home?

we create shortcuts because we want people to have access to features and mechanics and empower them to enjoy sky as they see fit.

[lilac forge]

will Sky release a season where is about musical season?

[gilded parrot]

Are you sure you looked everywhere? It has to be somewhere! Remember to try searching for things in Beta yourself, and if you're struggling with something, submit that as feedback to TGC in #beta-feedback to help them improve it!

[west hinge]

its true, i wont deny the hurdle is a tough situation, but making the entire point of that gorgeous cutscene completely irrelevant is just... idk, it sucks way more to me than anyone else apparently

also, as i said, interacting with people to ask how they got that ability is a part of that communication, participation, and friendship too

in the end it's still a journey, and friends will help you on that journey, but you should still have to take it

[vapid briar]

it's not up to you to tell someone how they feel about an experience though. that's up to those late arrivals to explore how they feel when they have that tender moment with the manta.

[olive tide]

that came to mind too, that it would be an opportunity to ask where someone got the ability and then go on an adventure with them to get it. i see your point, but ultimately, for being part of a current experience, it may be better for participation this way

[west hinge]

it wont be that tender if it kinda got absorbed into you and nothing really happened except the rock you were on vanishes /:

but ah well

thanks for the chat anyways ktjin, i appreciate the interaction nonetheless, have a good one!

celina you're always everywhere doing that its incredible

[zenith mist]

imo new players not being confused and lost on what to do is more important than maybe missing out on a cutscene keep in mind that there will also be many players that don't have discord or won't interact with other players outside of sky in any way. imo the way of obtaining the dive ability is pretty obscure, and i don't think many people would think of finding a meditation spot in a (relatively) hidden area and using that to gain an entirely new ability

[hard bear]

Kinda ironic coming from you, don’t you think?

[vapid briar]

think of it like this (incoming anecdotal evidence to support my argument) i knew what was gonna happen in eden long before i played that level. when i hugged that sky child for the first time i still sobbed. and to this day it still pulls at my heartstrings every time that button pops up

[unreal python]

There's still the relationship of the manta in it's connections to the story of abyss. You see the manta both at the start and the end of that season's journey. While it may not be 100% connected to learning how to dive, it can still function as an introduction into the story of the Abyss spirits and the Leviathan.

[vapid briar]

your feelings on it are valid, i'm not trying to discount it. and it's a very real possibility that others may feel that same. but given the circumstances we felt it was more important to empower players than to force them down a specific set path before they "get to the good stuff"

game design is rarely a situation where there's a sole problem and a sole solution. it's normally a cascade of decisions (and often a lot of compromises) in order to create the opportunity for the most good with the least amount of harm.

[carmine thorn]

Something something... in game text and maybe a cutscene to show the player where to learn to dive.

[west hinge]

i mean the game isnt supposed to be played as if you were probably already spoiled for the whole thing,
yes its not supposed to be played as if you weren't, ig, but it's still a journey, it's still an experience, i know people dont like me using this word but it's still.... better... as something you weren't ready for

[vapid briar]

and your experience is unique to you. give others a chance to explore for themselves and decide how they feel about it.

[west hinge]

"come and find me in the abyss"
--blu manta boi

[zenith mist]

i think it also helps that moths don't feel pressured to go to the abyss area, they can discover it on their own. otherwise they'd probably just find a guide or something so they don't miss out on the event

[unreal python]

Could be interesting, but I've had many times where I miss a cutscene and it's text because I was distracted by something.

[olive tide]

this happened to me for my entire first playthrough, i was completely distracted by the areas and the music that i was lost the whole time

[unreal python]

"Wait, I was supposed to read something?"

[west hinge]

maybe if we're talking about canonicity for game mechanics, but this isn't "you found the master sword!", this is an emotional experience, an emotional connection you're making

it's different from just physically getting that ability, it's about how you get that ability that matters

Eden would matter a lot less if we didn't have to find every single elder to get to it

[unreal python]

Do you think there could still be an emotional experience though with that manta unrelated to gaining the diving ability? You still meet this manta and then get introduced to a lush underwater world. And you see the manta once more at the end in an emotionally touching quest. I think there is still a chance for a connection.

[carmine thorn]

Wouldn't enabling diving in Sanct for everyone and diving to other areas only for those who went through the Abyss cutscene work? I.E. new player, never "learned" dive can dive in Sanct Islands, but must have a friend teach them how to dive in other areas by bringing them to Abyss work?

Or does that add too much complexity and snap one of the rubberband holding things together?

[olive tide]

i think the difference is that you don't need to go to eden to interact with other players in the activities they're doing. meeting the elders is part of the original gameplay, which is not to say that the manta doesn't have emotional meaning. it's just difficult to compare two things that don't have the same meaning to the main story

[zenith mist]

people will still come across that cutscene and feel a certain way about it, they just experienced it differently
on the other hand, there's plenty of people that watched that cutscene and probably didn't feel any type of emotional connection at all.. and they wouldn't see the issue you're seeing right now

[unreal python]

I feel as a new player I would be confused as to why I could dive at one ocean shoreline, but not at several other ocean beaches. As a moth I was confused as to why lighting the same candles more than once per day wasn't granting me wax every time, for example.

[west hinge]

clearly it this isn't changing, and that's fine, but the problem I see here isn't the solution itself, but rather how we came to that solution

you made that solution, and instead of balancedly acknowledging every solution that could be possible, you stuck with the first solution you came up with, and then you justify it against any other possible solution that would show up

this conversation hasn't been about considering the candidness of any and all solutions, it's just been about justifying the original solution and giving arguments against any alternatives

I really don't know how I feel about that and I'm sorry

[zenith mist]

thats a very big assumption to make lol

[carmine thorn]

To be fair, we aren't in the meetings they have. We don't know all the options they weighed. Please don't assume they didn't weigh other options unless you were in said meetings.

[vapid briar]

as someone who was part of the many discussions that led to the solution we arrived at, I can assure you we didn't "stick with the first solution we came up with"

[west hinge]

okay that's good

[unreal python]

I imagine Game designers job is to test out and discuss multiple different options for a game design mechanic to find the best solution, perhaps even before beta players get a whiff of whatever solution is chosen.

[zenith mist]

the sanctity of this cutscene hasn't been ruined because people will experience it differently than we have. i think you also shouldn't assume how people will feel and experience things in the future

[vapid briar]

it is completely okay for you to dislike the design decision, that's pretty normal honestly, and potentially concerning if no one dislikes a decision. but you also don't have to fabricate explanations to justify why you feel that way.

[viscid sundial]

An "emotional connection" here really feels subjective tbh... Like other ppl mentioned some might have not felt an emotional connection at all. I didn't feel an emotional connection to how I got the ability to dive, even starting out as an Abyss (beta) moth. But moreso I formed an emotional connection with the manta itself, as my guide to the depths of the Abyss
Sorry if that makes no sense but that's just my two cents. Ppl will experience an "emotional connection" in different ways

[olive tide]

this has been a very interesting discussion (unfortunately i have to do homework now). critical thinking and peaceful discussion is something that i always appreciate partaking in here, thank you all for the opportunity to chat :)

[pale junco]

Learning to dive in wasteland sludge 😳 🥶 🤩

[unreal python]

I wonder if perhaps the removal of the dive mechanic from the manta actually could give more weight to the manta itself as a character in a story. Rather than a means to an end (being the swimming mechanic), it is now taking on more of a character role.

[tiny tinsel]

i think it’s important to consider not everyone is aware of these things via information gathered from discord, thinking from a standpoint if you only played the game with no outside info, it makes sense to get the ability sooner..

[vapid briar]

heck, there are decision we settle on that i don't necessarily like or agree with and i'm someone actively making those decisions sometimes. When I do disagree, I can at least understand why a particular decision was arrived at.

[west hinge]

well I definitely didn't fabricate it, because I wouldn't just dislike a feature just to dislike it

I was concerned about the feature specifically for these reasons, so in the end we were just voicing our differences on how it's important to us; the hurdle and the upgrade

[zenith mist]

well what do you think is the solution then?

[tiny tinsel]

i’d imagine there might still be people discovering sanctuary islands for the first time not understanding why they can’t dive in the trench like everyone else lol

[vestal rain]

😭

[vapid briar]

this is quite literally a fabrication #beta-discussion message
you made inaccurate assumptions about the decision making process regarding how players will get the swimming/diving ability after season of abyss concludes.

[west hinge]

I gave quite a few above, but they were just spur of the moment ideas

'if someone doesn't have the dive ability and sees someone else do it, they can and should just ask a vet how they did that who will tell them where to get it!

if it really locks them out of days of nature that much, then maybe consider some kind of special shrine in sanctuary that moths can go to for.... idk, a temporary diving ability that only works while they're in sanct?

the only other option is removing the ability to dive from people who havent went to abyss, but only after days of nature.
this obviously cant be done cos itll be rude to the moths who will be even more confused but even so

that really does kinda suck, i really hope there was effort at least and alternative methods were at least considered"

[zenith mist]

i don't think someone's enjoyment of the game and participation in events should depend on them asking other players what to do. this is just creating a lot of extra steps for a problem that, in my opinion, honestly isn't that big a deal

[west hinge]

ah yes, I miss worded and did not put an "if"

I will admit that not miss wording could likely have came from getting a bit too emotional about it

[tiny tinsel]

imo a game mechanic shouldn’t rely on having to ask people or find a vet and ask where to get it like you’ve mentioned though. if they introduce a temporary diving ability what’s the point ? just give them diving lol

[gilded parrot]

Hello beloved citizens! Skybot here to remind you all that if you are having trouble finding something in Beta, please submit that to TGC in #beta-feedback! Please make sure to search it yourself before asking, and together we can help many Live skykids have a great experience

[agile hazel]

This is really overthinking for something that's now meant to be a core mechanic of Sky

[west hinge]

talking to people and getting help from vets?
I agree!

[agile hazel]

Not to mention, doesn't having to ask a vet take away from the emotional investment that you were arguing was so important earlier?

[zenith mist]

i specifically went out of my way not to ask vets for help when i was a moth.. not every moth wants to depend on older players

[viscid sundial]

This also doesn't account for solo players

[vapid briar]

sometimes we feel that asking a fellow player "how do get thing" is the best way to share knowledge. sometimes that's not the best solution.

[unreal python]

Great point. Days of Nature may just be the first of many planned underwater activities to come.

[west hinge]

....no?
the cutscene is viewed on your own
also, for a lot of people, getting the courage yo ask someone something is a challenge in itself

[drowsy fiber]

It took me... half a year? or so? to unlock chat with someone I met in Sky... And I am quite sure I'm not the only one there...

[misty bone]

To be honest, you are the one playing the game. We should not be depending on others to get our task done if possible at least for me.

[vapid briar]

the flip side of influence on certain decisions is the technical feasibility of it.

[zenith mist]

i think assuming all moths enjoy getting help from veterans being carried through the game isn't giving moths enough credit for being able to figure out things on their own

[pale junco]

Does that mean skykids are programed bots by megabird that know how to fly and dive without learning 😳 /j

[vapid briar]

does it make sense to do a lot of complex engineering work to fit the need of a niche edge case scenario. is that really the best use of a dev's time with certain deadlines and other tasks at hand? and sometimes that answer is "no" also balancing around future-proofing an idea.

[west hinge]

no, it's definitely not always the best solution, but it's the most natural and non-artificial

sometimes i wonder if the og team intended for things to work like that; the "moth-vet" interaction

this is a social sandbox, and i adore that what happens communication wise between players is a natural thing, rather than something monitored by the gameplay

[agile hazel]

Oh Nature lmao, for some reason I was thinking about Bloom and was confused how it related to diving

[finite quarry]

Respectfully, a core game mechanic like diving should not depend on asking another player who happens to be online at the time, I have trouble finding people to sit on a bench for quests by itself

[unreal python]

I didn't like being led around at all as a moth. It was solo explorations only to me. At most, I would carefully watch how other players achieved a goal I was hoping to meet, but I did not talk or ask anyone specifically about the solution.

[zenith mist]

nobody should feel pressured to speak to other players because they can't figure out a mechanic in the game

[vapid briar]

you could even argue that having the first quest of abyss was the wrong way to introduce this new mechanic and should be part of the base game tutorial.

[tiny tinsel]

i think saying a solution to a game mechanic function is “artificial” is a bit unfair, tbh

[unreal python]

Days of Bloom, underwater garden version?

[west hinge]

i never let myself be led around as a moth either, but i asked a lot of questions

however yes, thats not how everyone plays the game, of course

[vapid briar]

it doesn't detract from the storytelling with the manta, but it does pose logistical issues beyond the scope of the season.

[drowsy fiber]

Don't take me wrong, but this sounds to me as an "why to not make new players ask for the diving"...

[west hinge]

as i said before, i did argue that, so yea it's an interesting topic for sure

[vapid briar]

we felt that diving should be considered a core aspect of the game now, and is subsequently unlocked when you complete the tutorial levels in the game.

[tiny tinsel]

which does make sense in my opinion ^^

[unreal python]

Players learning how to dive earlier can open up more opportunities for underwater areas, and events, I imagine. It could be a boon to all of us.

[zenith mist]

based on my experience as a moth, if i had to find diving through asking a vet for help, i would not have found it. i didn't talk to people, i purposefully avoided older players and only stuck around other moths, and played mostly solo. i felt like older players would look down upon me for being a dumb moth that needs help. im sure many other people experience the game the same way, and would not enjoy depending on others for help

[vapid briar]

and we plan to introduce more and more underwater content as we see fit in the future.

[west hinge]

so what is the manta supposed to convey without actually giving us anything

we absorb it- why?
what did it mean?
was it there to be pretty in front of us?

and i dont like that the answer, as if im a deer in headlights, is that it 'means something different to everyone'

im not sure how i feel about that
the og manta cutscene 'means something different to everyone'
the new version will just be us wondering what happened

'it means something different to everyone' is wacky cos in this case it's not just an answer to my question; it's being used specifically as an means to justify the ends of taking away diving as a part of what abyss gives to you

[misty bone]

~~ less drowning but more fun please~~

[sharp cliff]

But diving mechanism isn't really necessary in-game during the journey till eden, one can complete game without it but in abyss. I think it gives good touch to exploration as your learn new skill and go back through realms in different places to see what there is. It's just my opinion though.

[agile hazel]

Yes, but there's obviously going to be more stuff added in the future

[tiny tinsel]

to be fair finding your own meaning in a lot of the content is a heavy theme in the game i think at least..

[pale junco]

Day 685456 of no jellyfish underwater, what is this logic tgc does sky only have air jellys 😩

[unreal python]

It could be a spirit of some of the light creatures who passed away at the facility? Or the spirit of the Cannoneer who could have been trapped in purgatory. Or just a sentient form of light from Megabird who communicated to us not in words, but emotions, that it knew you could help out these trapped spirits and healing the area. There could be a few interpretations considering it's role and how it appears at the very beginning and end of the season.

[sharp cliff]

I know, but like I said you learn new skill and go back to exploration well that's how I felt it

[vapid briar]

currently no, but the world of sky is a living, breathing thing and that may not always be the case

[west hinge]

well, the problem is moreso about days of nature
or any new water things they may add

[zenith mist]

you can come to those conclusions however you want to. im sure some people will be able to come to their own conclusions as well. unfortunately a lot of the story in sky is vague and meant for everyone to find their own meaning, and also quite frankly i doubt many even find much meaning in this one manta. i don't. i see this whole issue as creating a mountain out of a molehill

[viscid sundial]

Not everything has to have a clear cut explanation imo, and I don't see why it's bad for others to find their own meaning in the manta's cutscene

[tiny tinsel]

i’m sure #lore-discussion-spoilers would be more than happy to elaborate on all their theories about the manta cutscenes and meanings in abyss

[vapid briar]

i guess one question i'd like to ask, why do you feel the need to take diving away when the turtle and the underwater area is a permanent installation in that realm?

[unreal python]

You heard it here first folks, the Sky breathes.

[pale junco]

New Underwater realm??

[vapid briar]

don't tell #lore-discussion-spoilers

[west hinge]

at the same time, sure, you're 'not removing the experience from the moth', but upgrade manta was significant to me

now it's just a vibing spirit that boops you

[zenith mist]

i think if sky's stories and meanings were that clear cut, the game would have much less of an impact. a lot of art asks you to find your own meaning in it, that's kind of just part of art interpretation
(not to sound pretentious.......)

[agile hazel]

At least we won't have to tell people to enter the cave anymore in qnh

[sharp cliff]

Pardon? How's that a problem? I mean we all ask for new content in-game and when it is given it became a problem? I'm really not able to understand your view point

[zenith mist]

how does this take away the significance of it to you then? you experienced it the way you did, and others will experience it differently. it will have a different type of significance to them as it did to you. there's nothing wrong with that

[unreal python]

Hamlet's father appears to him mysteriously as a ghost in the beginning of the play, and ends up causing a whole lot of trouble for everyone as a result.

Mysterious ghost happenings are a well used story element. 👻

[ember lake]

Are you discussing how new players learn to dive?

[tiny tinsel]

i don’t think we can really assume how new players will be impacted by certain things in the game

[near crescent]

NEW ICONS ARE SO CUTE
I'm sorry I just woke up

[viscid sundial]

I love the new icons sm, I was squealing over them when I saw for the first time

[west hinge]

i think my answer actually lies in the question; the turtle and new underwater environment are permanent

they will be explored in their own time by moths when they have diving, moths will see vets dive and want to try to get that too, the ones who are curious will explore and find abyss, and when they do, itll feel rewarding, and since it all was permanent anyways, there's no rush and they'll eventually figure it out

i also was anticipating days of nature map being moreso a reward for those who already braved abyss; we get to enjoy swimming this time instead of screaming in sheer terror

im just clearly way more into the reward and the struggle to earn things rather than just having it all, ig that's my bias

one more alternative idea, which is still prolly unsatisfactory cos it's still just more work on the pile for some poor dev, is that a slightly uncanon spirit could point non-divers into wasteland and then also in social area to the boat, for the duration of days of nature and even a bit before that

[west hinge]

well im a lorebrat so-
||ill just see myself out||

[unreal python]

I think if the extra underwater activities were to be permanently limited to the turtle, then your case of keeping the Abyss manta as the only way to get diving could hold weight.

But considering it's entirely possible that we may have another underwater activity, event, area, or maybe realm created in the future, I think it is a lot to ask that in order to participate in these hypothetical future activities and areas, that new players must go to this one specific out of the way location, 5 levels deep into the game.

[tiny tinsel]

consider again that they just said it will be a core mechanic of the game which you get after completing tutorial levels, and will be used in future underwater features which could be presented to a new player before they find the abyss area

[agile hazel]

There's plenty of players who don't touch some seasonal areas at all either cause they don't want to or don't know of it

[zenith mist]

days of nature is still a big event, they'll still be missing out on something. it's like if feast or mischiefs stuff were locked behind a mechanic you have to just go find, i don't think thats very fair or very fun to play

[west hinge]

yes, but like someone said above, we should make mysterious ghost say something then

"save us from the abyss, i will be with you"
"ooooooooooo👻 👻 👻 👻oooooo"

[zenith mist]

i think having an entirely new npc that gives you temporary diving would be more confusing if anything, and making a lot of work to solve a problem that in my opinion isn't a very big deal

[unreal python]

How would they know where the Abyss is? We had people asking where the stage was in this beta test, despite it looking like it was in Valley. And that's depending on if new players pay attention to the cutscene or read the text, and not get distracted.

[agile hazel]

Honestly, this is a great opportunity to bring back old valley ice rink. Diving unlocked after finishing Forest, ice rink will be a small and safe area for moths to get a quick tutorial

[west hinge]

to be fair sanct isnt even unlocked until 3 levels deep into the game?

bird nest's barrier uses forest spirits right?

[tiny tinsel]

as someone who gets distracted and sometimes misses cutscenes…. it’s very possible lol

[lilac solstice]

Iirc it's isle spirits actually

[unreal python]

I believe you are correct. But who's to say there won't be a new underwater event taking place somewhere else that has different entry requirements? Or if there's an underwater event taking place at home like Days of Summer Lights, or Days of Feast have taken place at home?

[tiny tinsel]

or just. being given a mechanic earlier that will be a core function of the game. and not strictly a seasonal or event thing

[zenith mist]

there might even be a new season that requires diving, what if you couldn't gain the diving ability that area? should they just have an npc that says "hey go to this specific area and go sit down at that thing and then come back later"
id feel bad for qnh if that were the case LOL

[unreal python]

I think removing the duties of granting swimming mechanic actually will be better for this manta character in the Abyss story. That way new players will see this manta more as a character with meanings to be discovered, rather than a case of "Oh, they only exist as a nice costume for the game to grant me swimming".

[dry flax]

Imagine a moth wakes up in Isle of Dawn and gets diving tutorials first!
"Go on... Be a mermaid"

[agile hazel]

pls no

[lilac solstice]

That would be way too confusing for a new player especially. Like imagine you are just told to go to some other off the path area just to do something in another off the path area.

[tiny tinsel]

the manta is still important and has meaning,,…. the last seasonal quest for abyss is impactful still

[spark lance]

All this manta talk. I suddenly want to wear my manta cape. Let's be manta

[west hinge]

its true....
thats a reason why i also gave my alternative that you could meditate at a tail shrine that appears for that event, temporarily giving you the ability to dive but only whole you're inside that area

but that'd be kinda rediculous and also a headache for devs

[west hinge]

yea ik
hmm

[west hinge]

definitely!

the last time i said they should bring it back everyone got mad tho-
(prolly cos its me but yea)

[zenith mist]

everyone disagreed with you because we thought it was a bad idea
you also said tgc wouldn't add more diving areas to the game and diving would be a one off gimmick.. look where we are now

[west hinge]

me too lol-

[tiny tinsel]

nobody is mad, just discussing lol

[lilac forge]

let's agree that we all love sky very much

[west hinge]

imo giving a character mechanical importance doesn't make it any less a character, and vice versa, but maybe it'll work like that for some people's interpretations ig

[tiny tinsel]

i think once you consider every aspect like this the devs decision of when to grant the diving ability does make sense, if anything, after prairie might even make sense too

[ember lake]

I have a question. Are there few online videos about games? When I was a new player, I learned how to play games by watching videos. Maybe later new players can do the same. (I used the translation software, and I'm sorry if I have trouble or offended others.)

[unreal python]

Yeah, I'm not mad. I disagree with your opinion in this particular matter, but that doesn't make you any less of a person.

[west hinge]

i said i was worried it would end up a gimmick fam

i have every right to care

[tiny tinsel]

there’s a lot of videos for sure, anyone could do a simple search for a lot of mechanics in the game and find guides yeah

[zenith mist]

calling people you dont know fam is odd

[west hinge]

indeed, its a habit

[lilac forge]

这里是关于测试服的，官方的在 #general-sky-discussion ,可以在那里问问
（this channel is about Sky beta, for the official will be at #general-sky-discussion , you can try ask over there)

[gilded parrot]

We ask everyone to please post only in English on this server, @lilac forge. Unfortunately, moderators and staff aren't able to support all the languages spoken by our global Sky family.

[zenith mist]

there are definitely a lot of guides out there, but the issue is we want to have things be accessible ingame without having to search for outside sources

[zenith mist]

i don't see how what they said is unrelated to the current discussion, which is about beta

[ember lake]

I understand, thank you. I don't think it is necessary to create a new npc because there will be many in the future.

[tiny tinsel]

i think they were asking in reference to how people might be able to learn about the diving

[ember lake]

Thank you. I see what you mean.

[lilac forge]

also sorry that I use Chinese on here bot 😛

[unreal python]

And outside sources could be including asking other players in the game for help too. Everything should be designed in a way that it should be possible to navigate a games mechanics and understand them without having to resort to asking others. Asking others, or watching video guides, should be a benefit, but not essential to learning how to play the game and experience what it has to offer.

[lilac forge]

well, mostly I want the players want enjoying the games on the official first, because for mostly if they see the Beta Content what they add they might felt like uhh, quickly getting bored, so that is why I tell new players to go to the #general-sky-discussion for about the discussion and guiding

[vapid briar]

so your motivation is you feel you deserve it more than a new player, why is that?

[west hinge]

i do agree that, especially with how much future water content could be in store, it's impossible to keep it locked behind abyss ig

id still like the manta to be more expressive that its actually asking for help, calling from within the leviathan

[tiny tinsel]

i think in this case it’s less about the manta and more about making a core mechanic of the game more accessible to new players ..

[lilac forge]

I will play Under The Sea once TGC staff add a lot of place we can explore under the sea

[shy ore]

How about The Greatest Showman soundtracks? /jk

[west hinge]

my motivation is that it should be earned, a new player doesnt need it at that exact moment, is not the first thing about the game exploring on the path to eden?

[lilac forge]

ooo yes, but that will be on the stage!

[vapid briar]

I ask because the concept of "I suffered and therefore others must suffer as I did" is pretty problematic, both in-game and in the real world.

[tiny tinsel]

moths already feel like they need to scramble to get cosmetics and emotes that older players have, would be a shame to carry that over to something like a game mechanic too lol

[west hinge]

oh yea ik lol, im talking about the manta just as a loose end i personally (as a lore minority) wish could be better expressed

[vapid briar]

but why? why should it be earned when it's a basic movement ability?

[lilac forge]

what if we have this cape

[zenith mist]

its funny you say you're a lore minority when fox is the one explaining most of the lore to me

[ionic bluff]

i don’t see how literal SWIMMING should be so hard to earn

[vapid briar]

you boot up the game and get your wings in the first few minutes? should we make you suffer on the ground, flightless, for an agreed-upon amount of time so that you feel you earned it?

[unreal python]

Moths nowadays: "No lifeguards? No problem!"

[zenith mist]

i don't mean this in a rude way, but more to share another persons perspective- my thoughts this whole time have been "who cares"

[tiny tinsel]

a lore minority? there’s a whole channel full of people who talk about nothing but lore! we’d be glad to have more people in there for sure

[ionic bluff]

me when I was 7

[vapid briar]

(i wasn't around for it, but i do believe in pre-launch beta, this was a thing and the designers also felt it unnecessary. some beta fossil please come in and confirm/deny )

[torn gust]

May i present to you, Shiras Isle beta archives https://imgur.com/a/1cYLqtx

with 300% more ded skykids

[vapid briar]

ah yes, it wasn't entirely a fever dream. bless shira's archivist nature

[pale junco]

not a fossil but from tara's videos on yt it was a long process you had to reach prairie to get your wing. Also in one version you have to go home from isle then have a long cutscene just to get your wing. 🏃

[west hinge]

its not a basic movement ability tho?

sanct and abyss (the two current environments we can use it in) are pretty far out of the way, and it's (currently) only relevant there

as for my idea of earning things, is that not okay, to earn things?
you're accusing me of wanting to see people suffer, which is... ouch?
experiences arent given, they're earned
i cant teleport to the top of a mountain to glean the view, i have to earn that

this is not a basic movement, this is as if you spend your whole life in a game on land but to access water areas you need a boat

from a game design standpoint, you're delegating to give them the ability to spawn a boat on any water from the beginning of the game

why do i need to dive at home for no reason when my objective is to climb a mountain and die in it?

[tiny tinsel]

suffering on the ground, flightless.... this is how the crabs live .. 😔

[agile hazel]

The more important question is what's the new diving tutorial going to be? Not really any places to practice diving in base realms as of now

[tiny tinsel]

it was just said that it will become a core game mechanic

[drifting cave]

This is how us humans live

[zenith mist]

it is a basic movement ability. it's new and special for us, but it's meant to be a core game mechanic alongside flying

[unreal python]

Humans are crabs? Interesting..

[west hinge]

but that's a deliberate, constant, full part of the game

swimming, no matter what is (appreciatedly) added in, will be an endeavor completely unrelated to flying, and to walking, and unloke flying and walking, is locked in specific, out of touch environments

[drifting cave]

Humans are crabs confirmed

[west hinge]

i dont swim to eden, i fly to it

[zenith mist]

should we have to unlock jumping and walking then as well

[unreal python]

I think that's a lot of assumptions made as to how important, or unimportant, swimming will be to Sky in the future.

[tiny tinsel]

i think it’s safe to say diving is and will be a deliberate and frequent part of the game lol

[vapid briar]

if you click that link Ash provided, you'll see that it wasn't always. I invite you to look at swimming/diving through a similar lens

[raw wasp]

I just feel bad that that cutscene from Abyss might end up trashed all together

[ionic bluff]

doesn’t mean that swimming isn’t going to help you progress through the game tho. Eden isn’t the ONLY thing that helps you progress. It’s also the things outside of it such as experiences and winged light, emotes, etc etc
which can all still be achieved through swimming, just like how it can be achieved with all other mechanisms in the game

[frigid shadow]

sanctuary got a few updates with swimming and stuff, so we can probably expect to get more updates like that in the future 🤔 and there's water in almost every realm so it doesn't seem like swimming is locked in out of touch environments?

[west hinge]

que where am blind

[unreal python]

Update to Eden incoming where you have to now swim through a krill filled tunnel with rocks flying at you.

[raw wasp]

I feel like its kind of relevant to the final cutscene specifically bc of that manta 😔

[lilac forge]

oh yeah, I wanna ask, you guys know where is the Sky music shop at?

[gilded parrot]

Beta testers' feedback is very important for TGC to create a good player experience! Please try searching for things yourself instead of asking here when possible, and remember to submit your thoughts in #beta-feedback so the devs know how to improve

[ionic bluff]

i support this. I WANT A REEEEEAAAAL CHALLENGE

[frigid shadow]

https://imgur.com/a/1cYLqtx here it is :>

[west hinge]

itll be fun and something to do, but the main point of interest, travel, and exploration will always be flying

[raw wasp]

I don’t think its in game yet aa

[zenith mist]

there will probably be many new diving areas, and it's unrealistic to expect every diving area to have an npc explain where to obtain diving, or to have every player ask others how to get it

[tiny tinsel]

this shouldn’t be a topic every single time a new event with diving as a main part of it is added also.

[zenith mist]

the point we're trying to make is sky isn't just about flying anymore.. diving is a part of the game now. view it like you would flying, not like a special ability you have to work hard to unlock

[unreal python]

"You must be this tall to ride" feeling.

[thorn cradle]

that’s the eden expansion we’ve all been waiting for

[vapid briar]

anyhoo, i appreciate the discourse, i have bug tickets shrieking the song of their people at me to be fixed. I'm not here to argue or convince anyone of anything, but i do like to ask questions. it helps me understand the community better which helps me design better content and experiences for you all in the future. Remember to always be kind and not assume malice when you have a different perspective from someone else. not all knowledge is universal, and everyone has different lived experiences that contribute to their point of view. til next time!

[tiny tinsel]

ty for your time ktjn

[zenith mist]

really appeciated having you here as part of the discussion ktjn!

[west hinge]

yea ik-

[lilac forge]

guys, need help on #beta-screenshots-videos

[ionic bluff]

ktjns going back to ktjning 😔

[spark lance]

good points all around

[west hinge]

yeah this was really cool, tysm for the chat

[raw wasp]

Also i realized i was just reiterating what someone else already said oops 🤡

[unreal python]

The music shop is not accessible in the game yet. We have to wait a little longer.

[glass spoke]

we should get it added in the next few updates though

[spark lance]

I also like the idea of having the swim mechanic be earned in abyss. It gives games more mystery and discoverability to newcomers. But ah well

[west hinge]

thats gorgeous, but was there a panel showing swimming that i missed?
they said the old beta had swimming in it

[glass spoke]

i was personally very excited for abyss a while ago, yet i don’t even go there anymore 🥲 i think i prefer flying

[unreal python]

In my opinion, if swimming was not planned on becoming a core gameplay mechanic in the future, leaving it to be discovered in Abyss would be just fine.

[west hinge]

yea but everyone has great points that it'll be really constraining as more and more water events are unlocked

[shy ore]

Im just a silent cheerleader and I wanna cheer them up silently and I'm still appreciate their works tho! XD
||As an Android 8 Sky BETA tester, I'm still cheering everyone not to lose hope. ||

[raw wasp]

Swimming is really nice but tbh the abyss area is just kinda boring after a while, in a way. Not really my ideal hangout spot

[unreal python]

I think Ktjn meant that it was more of a struggle to get your ability to fly, in some of the earlier beta iterations.

[spark lance]

Yeah I suppose. I guess I like the idea that it gives more opportunity for moths to ask questions. "Hey how do you swim?"
"AH you have to go to abyss"
"Whoa what's that??"

Though this is how I find enjoyment in games and realize it's not universal

[gilded parrot]

A "moth" is a new player. They have brown wings, they flap around uncontrollably, and they are drawn to flame!

[raw wasp]

Ngl an underwater area in the Starlight Desert would be really nice

[agile hazel]

If you spent a single day in #questions-and-help when Abyss started, you'd hate that

[raw wasp]

A dark coral reef with little light things throughout and plenty of nooks and crannies to hide in, it’d be epic!

I also like the idea of having a bunch of little tunnels to run around in turns into a sea hamster skykid or something

[glass spoke]

if they added an underwater area in sanctuary, i think with enough feedback, we’d get other areas too we already have some water in the treehouse, the only problem is that you quite literally fall out of the map if you try to get to the bottom 💀

[unreal python]

I think there is still a lot of weight in using the scenery and new emotes to entice players to explore and discover, without relying on gating a gameplay mechanic behind a later, off the main track, location.

For me, it was all about looking for hidden spirits and scenic places that kept me exploring every corner of the map.

[spark lance]

haha I meant in-game. Sometimes I think sky is missing a little bit momentum after you finish your first trip in eden. Discovering things like swimming,, sounds fun to me

[raw wasp]

HELP I WANNA DO THAT NOW join the assembly kids in the afterlife

[agile hazel]

Abyss is already enough, we need a tropical reef thanks

[stiff tusk]

Yeah but any moth like me would have been lost for like
Months
I was antisocial and afraid of anyone taller or shorter than me

[ember lake]

If the underwater world, the purple dream world, is really created in the Starlight Desert, I think it will be very beautiful.

[raw wasp]

I feel like phones could metaphorically catch fire with the existence of a coral reef too though

[lilac forge]

take me to Music Shop!!

[raw wasp]

Esp one that has a LOT of them.

[spark lance]

Ah that's perfect too, it's the perfect icebreaker when you're trying to figure something out..gives a sense of camaraderie

Though I'm not quite as anti social as many players..difference in playerbase I've come to accept haha

[agile hazel]

We've already said that it's not available yet

[raw wasp]

We can certainly dream though

[viscid sundial]

Pspspsps music shop please open. I have all my candles ready

[lilac forge]

wait, why KTJN at here

[drifting cave]

Reminds me of how my icebreaker nowadays is asking: "How long have you played sky?"

[raw wasp]

Looking for food

[spark lance]

One I find increasingly boring 😭

[unreal python]

Time to find some better questions! What's your favorite music genre? What pizza topping do you like best? Do you have any pets? Would you rather swim with sharks or go skydiving?

Real world ice breaker questions can apply to sky too.

[drifting cave]

We all desperately need more ideas 💀

[raw wasp]

Who’s your LEAST favorite spirit

[spark lance]

Not to knock on the decision, I do get it. I think its just my veiw of fun I'm projecting on sky.

One of my favorite things about online games is asking how you do/get something and someone pointing me in a direction, it feels like I'm a traveler in this world, haha

[lilac forge]

1. Classic and Pop
2. Pineapple
3. recently pass away, so no for now
4. I would like to ride it

[raw wasp]

If they answer Nodding Muralist hard block/j

[spark lance]

I'll never get tired of telling a moth where an enchantment light is when they're lost doing those quests. Seeing it click in them like "oooh, I get it, thank you!"

[drifting cave]

Probably just me, but at some point of the coversation, if i'm asking anything not related to sky, I feel either feel like i'm conducting an interview instead

[west hinge]

oh okay

then yeah i could kinda see that

in a way, i could appreciate both versions of Sky; the one representing a legitimate struggle from rock bottom, and the one where you were born and ready to take flight towards the elders and save the day

so ktjins argument didnt and still doesnt make much sense to me; i love both the challenge and the instant power, in each different case as different stories

(thanks for helping me get it lol)

[spark lance]

I relate with you, yeah. My guess is ktjn sees swimming as a default tool people should have early on. I see both sides.

A strength and maybe sometimes weakness of sky is it's open ended-ness. After gathering the emotes, I think human nature demands an endgame, and ts/cosmetics offeres that where there is none.

[lilac forge]

oh yeah, they should release the cute life saver for the swimming and diving !

[sullen relic]

I think one thing that seems weird about making diving an automatically learned ability is that new players won’t witness that little cutscene at the beginning of Abyss where you learn it from a manta spirit. The way we experienced it, it felt a lot more special than just a natural thing we could do from the start, since the whole season made it feel like a foray into a new realm under the ocean that we could never do before

Not sure I feel as if new players don’t deserve to get to it so soon as much as it actually deprives them of that same feeling of wonder to unlock it the same way we did

[spark lance]

yeah, same thoughts

[random agate]

That sounds like much to assume automatically someone wants players to suffer-

Sorry that just seemed like a bit too much in my opinion and no one else seemed to care--

[tiny tinsel]

the thing about it though is there is seemingly no total endgame on sky’s horizon any time soon

[west hinge]

people say "well new people will experience it differently and thats okay"

that makes me feel weird tho; if everything is subjective then realistically none of it actually matters

ktjin talks (as i see it) as if none of it actually matters cos they can do whatever and it's just the truth anyways, so of course they dont care about the story aspect, and of course a lot of people here dont either

theres a reason why ktjin isnt always fond of lorechat
its an understandable reason, but it's there-

[tiny tinsel]

just because an artistic game lets you interpret things in your own way doesn’t make it meaningless, subjective means you can find meaning in it in any way, quite the opposite of meaningless really

[sullen relic]

For me, it just feels weird because we can’t really share or relate over that same experience with new players if it’s changed like this, so they’re just not going to get what the hype and nostalgia is for some of us — just more a question of “where’s the magic gone?”

[random agate]

The initial person said they liked things to be earned, but then it's equated with an assumption that they want to make the players suffer. That's a big assumption to make that you shouldn't be telling your players when they're just expressing their opinions and preferences 💀

[tiny tinsel]

even if it had lore and things that were neatly laid out and explained to us directly it would still impact everyone differently.

[west hinge]

i know, and thats what a lot of people are accusing me of, even outside of this chat now and in other servers as word of this debate we had is getting spread around

tis a whole ouch

[spark lance]

It's fair to be realistic with lore expectations. Sky is not a deep lore game.

But I'm more towards spearmonkey's veiw that there will be an unnatural disconnect

[west hinge]

ah well

i still very much appreciate what happened here, this was amazing

[random agate]

^
Plus it makes it worse that others are following and accusing them of the same thing like they state here. .

[tiny tinsel]

embracing the freedom of interpreting something differently for yourself and finding a way to connect with it in your own way is refreshing nowadays honestly. don’t let anyone tell you how to enjoy or interpret sky, this goes for any side of the discussion really. but it’s important to not assume everyone will have a disconnect or that you need to have the same opinions as someone in order to find any enjoyment in the game and it’s stories

[drifting cave]

In regard about diving, perhaps adding it to the base tutorial over at isle with the manta cutscene would be ideal. When/if they'll do Abyss seasonal quests and see the manta at the final quest, the new players can go: Wait a minute...

this is heavily assuming they still remember the manta at the start of the game

[spark lance]

The question becomes is the early underwater exploration worth the compromise to abyss's oomph in terms of experience?

[tiny tinsel]

people will experience abyss differently regardless of if it contains learning the diving ability

[spark lance]

It does narrow it down a lot though (@tiny tinsel )

[rugged kayak]

with this discussion can we all at least agree that archiving and preserving sky's past is very important 🥲

[zenith mist]

did i miss something, when did ktjn say none of it matters and they don't care about the story so they can just do whatever

[tiny tinsel]

i get the reasons you guys think it would make abyss less impactful but the reality of it is it’s going to become a core mechanic of the game that shouldn’t be locked behind an old seasonal area that would be difficult to discover without using outside sources

[random agate]

As far as I know [granted I've only played for over a month, so please correct me if I'm wrong]
Abyss seems to be the only one that introduced a new mechanic like diving. While the event would be there forever, it is all the way in wasteland and we don't know what it would be used for in the future. It's kind of hard to decide what to do with it really. Keep it in abyss or move it elsewhere?
Since abyss is staying, they're going to need the diving eventually.

[spark lance]

They didn't say it didn't matter. but more it that the exploration opportunities matter more

[tiny tinsel]

they’ve def already said they plan on adding more underwater areas other places :3

[viscid sundial]

The diving mechanic is automatically granted to players now

[rugged kayak]

i very much agree with both sides of this argument, but at the end of the day no matter what the devs choose, preservation is important. if the manta cutscene is important to you, either record it if you can or download a recording of it on youtube and save it!!

[tiny tinsel]

to new players, exploration opportunities are widened with earlier access to diving

[zenith mist]

i think tgc should be able to make decisions that make sense for gameplay and make it easier for everyone to play and understand without everyone assuming they don't care about the story or how people feel about it /:

[viscid sundial]

I wish I'd recorded it, but I'm glad I got pics

[spark lance]

Yeah I know, I guess I don't find that as valuable as the discovery process and narrative flair that sky is admittedly desperately short on imo

[unreal python]

Is the cutscene being removed? My impression is that the cutscene will remain, it just won't be the way diving is granted to players.

[random agate]

Well, as of right now, to where? I don't think there are many areas that dive other than abyss and a social area [I think]
For a first run, you wouldn't really dive at all, so maybe it's best to leave it for when players come and explore a bit more the second time around?

[zenith mist]

i get sky is, in a sense, a very emotional game, but sometimes those things need to be put aside in order to make decisions that help everyone. imo everyone having fun playing the game is more important than everyone experiencing a cutscene the same way i did at one point

[tiny tinsel]

i think i understand what you mean, but they could still implement impactful discoveries via diving and with other things, it doesn’t dampen any future impactful events

[unreal python]

At least, it was talked about as if the manta cutscene would remain while Ktjn was present in chat, and they did not feel the need to correct us otherwise.

[rugged kayak]

yeah whether the manta gives you the diving ability or not, the cutscene IS very impactful especially for the abyss storyline... i really hope they don't get rid of it.

[quaint grove]

personally i think keeping it as a mechanic you get from abyss is fine because there are also areas you cant explore until you go through the game multiple times anyways moths cant explore some places that need more wing levels due to being so high up because most moths dont have that many wing levels. moths cant explore places behind star gates until they replay and get all the spirits. im not that upset about it and i can accept the change, but if we're gonna give the dive ability from the outset i think there should at least be a cutscene at the start of the game similar to the abyss cutscene so that we associate that manta with diving, then when we see it in abyss it makes more sense. just my view on it though 🏃 off to feedback i go

[ember lake]

Maybe they will expand the diving area to solve the problem of new players learning diving.

[tiny tinsel]

you meet the manta in the beginning and end with the manta regardless, it is still impactful in a sense, the decision just helps with future diving areas and makes more sense for new players to be given it directly

[zenith mist]

the areas you can't explore don't contain core game mechanics, they have things like emotes and winged light. not the same thing

[sullen relic]

I didn’t see any mention of it, but I don’t think you can view the cutscene if you already have the diving ability — so if it’s changed such that you automatically learn to dive at Forest, would the game actually functionally allow you to sit with the manta for an ability tutorial you already know?

[random agate]

I agree, I would prefer to keep it in abyss so players can discover it on their own. The boat is in the social area of wasteland and this is a social game. I don't think it would be too hard to find when you're going back and exploring what you missed the first time.

[spark lance]

The cutscene is part of it, but its also the feeling of finding something new. "You've earned swimming!"

also the custscene becomes sort of "what just happened" without the diving earned from it haha.

Not saying people "don't care about story", I just think sky needs more stuff to get other than emotes and things.

[unreal python]

I'm not sure. My hope is that it remains, but if Ktjn visits again it'd be good for one of us to ask.

[tiny tinsel]

you don’t need to learn diving with the manta for the cutscene where you have, as ktjn said, a “tender moment with the manta” to be emotional and impactful for you

[rugged kayak]

both sides of this argument i agree with too much.... haha

personally, at the end of the day as long as that first manta cutscene is kept in the game i'm happy LOL.

[zenith mist]

i think im starting to dislike that little manta for causing this much trouble

[spark lance]

don't hate on the poor Manta lol

[tiny tinsel]

i mean have any of you like, experienced when a bird irl gets really close to you and doesn’t get scared. the bird didn’t teach me to fly but i still had a moment with it LOL

[random agate]

Plus it's fun to figure out and play past seasons after they're done. Doing the season of prophecy where you have trials that take away your wings were challenging and rewarding to figure out even though i was a new player seeing this in February.

I think diving is best to be discovered in abyss and if it'll be used in the next season, introduce it there as well just to make sure. Before then players can find it and be like "whoa, cool I didn't know this!"

[gilded parrot]

Hmm I don't know where that could be, but we could jump in Beta and try searching it together! As testers, it's important for us to look for things ourselves before asking questions and submit any struggles to TGC in #beta-feedback. That way we are helping many Live children that could have the same questions

[rugged kayak]

i'm really sorry this is off topic to everything but this example but one day a black bird was somehow in my house and when i eventually coaxed it to a window i opened, it calmly sat with me for a few moments before flying off 😭

[tiny tinsel]

and have players just “learn” to dive over and over again every season..?

[zenith mist]

i think you guys are viewing diving differently than tgc does. diving isn't a new special ability you earn, it's not something you earn through hard work and gameplay the way something like 11 wings or a ton of candles are. its a core game mechanic like flying is. it's new and special to us right now, but in the future it won't be that way

[ember lake]

Will it be better for new players to watch the animation of the boat ride in the abyss season when they enter the twilight zone? Maybe they can learn to swim in this way.

[spark lance]

For me it's like imagine of Link started with the bow weapon. Then during the dungeon where you're supposed to find it, there's a cutscene with someone vaguley handing you something you technically already have.

Sure there can be 'interpretations', haha. I just find it lacking

[gilded parrot]

Hmm I don't know where that could be, but we could jump in Beta and try searching it together! As testers, it's important for us to look for things ourselves before asking questions and submit any struggles to TGC in #beta-feedback. That way we are helping many Live children that could have the same questions

[sullen relic]

Although I get the angle you’re coming from, I’m not too sure what the narrative or functional purpose of that cutscene would be if you’re only allowed to view it once, but it doesn’t appear to change anything in the game or narrative. Explaining its original purpose to new players who can already dive feels like we’re telling them about a leftover but defunct cutscene that doesn’t have the same impact the way I’m seeing it. It’d feel a bit like “why is there this one cutscene where I sit and stare at a manta, and I can only view this once?”

[tiny tinsel]

a purpose could be the symbol of beginning of abyss and closure at the end of abyss just like it basically is now

[zenith mist]

why should new players have to work for a core movement mechanic just to preserve the sanctity of this one cutscene? when i watched it i didn't think anything of it and im sure a lot of people felt the same, and i bet in the future they will as well. if i were a moth and i found out i missed out on stuff bc i didnt know abt diving id be pretty annoyed

[spark lance]

I can already see new players going "hey guys I found this cave and a manta flew up to me, and kinda vanished. what was that about?"

[quaint grove]

well i guess forgetting all the manta stuff this info is pretty exciting. i wonder what modifications and new mandatory areas theyre gonna give to the realms to make diving a necessary action to progress through the game

[tiny tinsel]

there’s encounters with light creatures like this through the entire game though

[zenith mist]

sky isn't a metroidvania where you have to work and explore for all your abilities i dont understand we're treating it like one lol

[random agate]

Thay depends on how many seasons they have diving in. While we know the next one will have diving, how do we know others after it will?

Right now, diving is currently only usefull in abyss. For a first time player, they won't need diving because I doubt they'll change the base worlds that much to fit this new mechanic that only the people who have already run through the game once already will use.

[sullen relic]

I can’t really think of another encounter that’s locked behind a single cutscene like this though, with this kind of camerawork

[spark lance]

like this one? Honestly don't recall

[tiny tinsel]

there is an area in live aside from abyss currently that utilizes diving. and they’ve stated it will be in other areas in the future. it’s not solely about seasons having it, but average areas in the maps and future events in general

[unreal python]

Yes, I think many here are viewing diving as it is right now-essentially a fun little extra ability. Ktjn is likely speaking from a point of view in where they know that in the future, diving is perhaps going to become as essential as running and flying in Sky.

[spark lance]

Not being able to swim for a bit longer isn't exactly robbing you of the game. We've managed for the entire games life span lol

[zenith mist]

why are we even discussing moths finding diving on our own when none of us even did that. this is the beta channel, we learned about it in an update LOL

[sullen relic]

I think until the point where they actually make swimming a core ability of the game, I’m not really going to see it any differently than what it seems like now — that’s asking me to look towards a future that hasn’t been actualised yet

[unreal python]

If the element of swimming stayed as it is right now, I would agree. But Ktjn has said it is planned to become an essential core gameplay element, so we can assume it will be used on a wider scope in the future.

[tiny tinsel]

like stated above, it will not be just a fun little side ability but a core mechanic of the game like flight. this is the big thing to keep in mind, not any emotional impact. ktjn stated earlier even that you could argue introducing the ability via the season was the wrong choice. but they did and they’re adjusting it to make more sense for new players

[spark lance]

The boat leading to the abyss isn't all that hidden :p. It's in plain sight

[rugged kayak]

ngl with how little they're seen in the main game outside of their cutscenes you could argue that the elders themselves fall into this assuption for new players

[quaint grove]

to be fair i think "oh random spirit people" "oh okay this guy looks important theyre probably like an important spirit person" is not that much of a stretch to connect

[sullen relic]

You’re probably looking at this discussion as if we’re saying it has to be earned through effort, whereas some of us are focusing more on the wonder of the discovery when we encountered it later into the story, even if we were guided into it quite directly

[random agate]

Well these areas would most likely just be accessible the second time around. Like someone mentioned earlier, new players can't reach certain areas the first time because they don't have enough winged light. Abyss isn't hard to find and it feels more rewarding to find it after the fact if you've missed the season.

This game is good at letting players find things when they go back and explore, let it do its thing and let people find it

[tiny tinsel]

so moths who haven’t explored wasteland (when moths tend to be anxious about exploring it already) just shouldn’t have access to areas or events that have diving until they’ve progressed that far ? seems unfair to me

[random agate]

If it's their first time around they don't need it. Plus players deserve more credit than that. They could discover a boat in the social area there and wonder where it goes and find it

[spark lance]

The boat is just right of the entrance to the realm. in fact I think you get diving in the first few steps into abyss. It's already quite easy to run into

[gilded parrot]

I ate it

[sullen relic]

In that same vein though, moths don’t have access to past seasonal spirits or most spirit gates on their first play through. They’re kinda saved as new adventures on their next time through, which I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing either

[zenith mist]

theres plenty of reasons why moths wouldnt go to the area. they're afraid to go becuase it's wasteland, they just didn't see the area (i didn't even know about birds nest or the prairie caves for a really long time), they dont expect there to be an important movement ability there because none of the other areas have that. sky doesn't have unlockable abilities like this, it'll just be weird and confusing

[quaint grove]

i mean. moths also dont have access to events in the office until they try to explore vault either

[rugged kayak]

that is true however some moths may not look at that direction when they first go to wasteland, and if theyre anything like how i was as a moth they could avoid touching wasteland at all for weeks (LOL) because it scares them

[unreal python]

It's true that it's pretty close. But if swimming is planned to be applied on a wide scope, potentially with many applications in many different realms, I would not want it to be locked behind the 5th level, on the chance I happen to look to the right of the lobby.

[spark lance]

it's not even "in" wasteland really

[tiny tinsel]

i just don’t see the need to keep a core movement ability from new players for so long

[quaint grove]

now this is just making me think what if each realm offered a different ability isle could already have flying ig since you gain ur wings there

[zenith mist]

can we not put this one manta in a cutscene over new players being able to play the game lol

[sullen relic]

Sky kids becoming sky moles by digging into the ground

[fast skiff]

I honestly don't understand the need to make things more complicated than they really are. Swimming became as basic a concept in Sky as flying. It's not a skill that has to be earned to prove one player's level over another, or as a trophy so until then the player can feel they've won something and can then enjoy everything they missed out on by not learning to swim because ‘they weren’t curious enough’. The ability to fly was present from the beginning, why? because flying encompasses mostly everything that is possible to do in Sky, why should swimming be any different? If you really want to feel like you’ve achieved something, play Sky in blind mode, but I don't see the purpose, much less the prudence, in putting all new players through the same experiences as you. Everyone has their own unique Sky experience, and not because in my experience I faced the struggle, but I feel that through my sweat I earned the place where I am, I want others to also go through the same.

[spark lance]

Sky is a really short experience and swimming is not a core mechanics, not for the long foreseeable future

[random agate]

Right now it isn't important. Even then players deserve more credit. Of course my experiences weren't the same as everyone else's, but I wasn't nervous to go back to wasteland and the boat is sight there with the home thing. If they see the home thing, they'll see a boat right there.

[unreal python]

No moth will be able to explore all of the game the first time through. There will always be more to discover for a first time player. I don't think a sense of discovery is lost if a gameplay mechanic is introduced earlier.

[rugged kayak]

yeah i think what sets this argument of swimming apart from say events is that events are temporary things that come and go, whereas, as Has Been Said Over And Over Again, swimming is Intended To Be A Core Feature and is going to become a Fully Implemented As One in the future, as sky is a game that Gets Updates and Can Change Constantly

[random agate]

They probably won't get everything the second time through too. It's a process and fun exploration.

[quaint grove]

overall i dont mind the change i just want a new cool cutscene in isle or something that teaches the moth how to swim (which is probs gonna happen seeing as how its been said itll become a core mechanic)

[unreal python]

New digging mechanic introduced in a 2026 season.

[random agate]

Yeesssss

[tiny tinsel]

if you’re still not understanding that diving is going to be a core mechanic or that putting new players above a single manta in a cutscene is more important then i encourage you to take a look at ktjn’s messages from earlier in this channel

[spark lance]

I wouldn't mind it if there's really a lot going on underwater but there isn't yet. Until then i don't think moths are going to miss out on much if at all if it's left as it normally.

[unreal python]

I think it was said that swimming will be learned somewhere in Hidden Forest. So enough time to let players get used to flying.

[zenith mist]

i dont even understand the importance of this cutscene when

• the majority of us here didn't find it on our own, this is beta. they told us to go get it
• most moths see things happening and go "huh, thats weird" and think nothing of it
• when i saw the cutscene i also thought "huh, thats weird" and thought nothing of it

[random agate]

Are they going to change the base words for first time players?

If no then teaching them diving on their first time is useless vs them discovering it on their second or third go.

[quaint grove]

that does seem like a fitting place with all the water there

[unreal python]

Sure, but better to get ahead of the underwater activity train rather than flesh out all these events and activities, but still require players to go to a relatively obscure (as in, not on the main path) location in order to participate in many activities, and only change it once the underwater world is larger.

[tiny tinsel]

also remember not everyone gets this info via discord or outside sources

[spark lance]

Yeah but there aren't many activities or even some. In beta, there was one new underwater areas in an also obscure realm (sant). I don't even think most moths will run into it before heading to gw

[random agate]

Plus not all of us are arguing because of the manta cutscene. I personally don't really mind what happens to it. I'm saying that as of right now it isn't needed until you get into the real gameplay of exploration and discovering it.

[unreal python]

Now there are not many. But there seems to be plans that there will be. Why not just sort out the access earlier rather than kicking the can down the road?

[rugged kayak]

when diving isnt involved the manta cutscene importance has to do with the abyss storyline, as the manta you save from the Beast is the one you meet in the "learn to dive" cutscene
maybe they could change the initial manta cutscene somehow to be less "i am giving you the power of swimming" and more "come explore underwater with me there's a Lot!!!"

[tiny tinsel]

i mean that’s why this is beta and not live news that it’ll become a core mechanic …

[unreal python]

In fact, changing it so underwater access isn't as hidden is perhaps more beneficial to expanding the world of underwater areas and activities. I am sure there is data where they can see how many players visit a specific area or participate in an event. If underwater events and activities show good participation because of this change, it will fuel more resources to developing even more usage of underwater and swimming.

[zenith mist]

okay, but why do we need to explore to gain this Core Gameplay Mechanic. A Core Movement Ability Like Flying. there's really no need to make things harder for moths

[spark lance]

Because it renders abyss a "so what?" realm for however long it'll take for swimming to be so core to the game that it needs to be open asap. Atm the change seems a little pointless

[random agate]

Core mechanic for what parts of the game?
For the base islands? Extra areas? Events?

[zenith mist]

you think the entire abyss area quests are going to be rendered useless and "so what?" just because players start with diving instead of gaining it through a cutscene?

[tiny tinsel]

yes ..? in any aspect of the game. not just events

[quaint grove]

i mean we'll find out whenever they add more stuff with diving they already said they would

[random agate]

What aspects?
Are they changing the first experience for new moths going for the first time?

[unreal python]

There are other solutions into making an Abyss not a "so what" realm. Social wax is one way for example, shown in Sanctuary. Perhaps there could be other plans too.

Also, there is the story itself, the emotes, and the rebreather mask that still function as attractions. As well as the natural desire to explore new places.

[fast skiff]

new players may create their initial most meaningful memories underwater, which may seem like 'not missing too much' to you

[zenith mist]

just because there aren't many places to dive now doesnt mean there won't be in the future. ktjn said earlier that they will be adding more, and they said it is a, and i cannot stress this enough, core movement ability no different than flying

[spark lance]

honestly I don't even think most people will naturally start diving before they discover abyss. There just isn't much bodies of water let alone ones with stuff under it

[lilac solstice]

They are already adding a new event that uses diving. In fact a whole area to sanctuary, that afaik, isn't going away anytime soon. They'll most likely add more too

[tiny tinsel]

wish i could give you a perfectly laid out answer but i am not a developer and none of us know what they have planned specifically but they’ve explained their decisions and the reasons

[bright portal]

With the changes , u can say abyss is similar to sanctuary , moths will only do the story line for the sake of knowing the story for that area, that's fine by me

[unreal python]

Well, of course that's true at the moment. Because we only just got diving, yours and others experiences for the past 2+ years is that diving wasn't available, so what was the point in trying?

[sullen relic]

I do find the change quite hard to justify with the game and underwater level areas in its current state. They might convince me to change my mind if more underwater areas and activities were introduced to beta to show us the direction they want to take it in, but as of now (yes, even including the Sanctuary trench), it seems more like a gimmick to me outside of the Abyss area. For anyone not understanding why I'm particularly attached to the manta cutscene, it's very much a lore/storytelling thing with the way it was delivered when we first encountered it -- that feels like a pretty big loss in my books, even if you may not feel the same way as me as an individual.

[spark lance]

It's nice they're adding things later but that kind of development takes a really long time.

To call it a core mechanic right now just isn't really the case

[tiny tinsel]

there’s literally already going to be an event that utilizes it, and abyss hasn’t even ended yet. it’s not like so much time is passing without an underwater ability being used

[bright portal]

I agree with this

[zenith mist]

they literally said thats what it is and will be in the future, and there will be more locations that require diving

[unreal python]

It will be though. I think its better they address it now rather than kicking the can down the road and only fixing it after Sky and TGC gets complaints about locking access.

[quaint grove]

this conversation is just "but diving isnt a core mechanic thats used anywhere else" "but it will be" "but its not" "but it WILL BE" "BUT ITS NOT"

[random agate]

Then why use the argument of it'll be important for all aspects when you don't know if it'll even affect the base game for new players?

If it'll be for new areas to discover later, I would say to leave it in abyss to discover because this game is a discovery game where you find new things after the first time.

New players don't need it until they finish their first edan run and start the 'real game' that's mainly what my argument is for why it should stay in abyss

[gilded parrot]

Are you sure you looked everywhere? It has to be somewhere! Remember to try searching for things in Beta yourself, and if you're struggling with something, submit that as feedback to TGC in #beta-feedback to help them improve it!

[bright portal]

I still don't see the issue with this change ...nothing's really at a disadvantage for that

[sullen relic]

It's fine to leave it as just that -- the important thing that some users may need to recognise is that discussing different opinions doesn't always entail trying to convince the other side or outright invalidating their argument, which I seem to be seeing a lot of attempts at

[tiny tinsel]

again…. we’ve literally been told it will affect the game as a core movement mechanic . is this not clear or enough info

[spark lance]

Hard disagree that there will be all these complaints for inability to access 1 sanct area asap.

As it stands this mechanic is a light gimmick. It needs more development imo

[zenith mist]

i thinking you guys should stop focusing on how diving is used now and instead focus on how it will be utilized in many areas in the future, as the devs have repeatedly stated. so what if it's only used in abyss and sanctuary right now? should we just grant everyone the ability when you personally deem it important enough?

[unreal python]

My point has not been about locking the current 1 Sanctuary area...it has been about not locking the as-Dev-stated planned future core gameplay content. Your argument seems to be that you want there to be more swimming gameplay elements before you'd like this change. Why should they not do it ahead of the game, so they can have more participants of swimming events in the future?

[spark lance]

The loss on abyss being the place where you first dive is not worth this future waaay down the line. I think you're all underestimating the length this will take.

[fast skiff]

I was just curious as to how you decide what new players need or do not need

[tiny tinsel]

underestimating the “length” of what was said will be a core movement mechanic for the entire game apparently 🤧

[sullen relic]

I've mentioned it earlier, but just to make it clear if it didn't come across clearly: I'll be open to that when they've actually shown us future plans to a level that makes me feel as if it will have become a core mechanic once it has all been implemented, but I do not feel as if changes should be made to diving until that is actually happening with the content being shown in beta. As it is now, I don't feel like it's reached that stage.

[gilded parrot]

📱iOS/Android: Learn about the sign-up process and how to get notified when invites happen in #beta-faq!
Switch: The Switch Beta testing period has ended with Live launch. All future content testing will be conducted on Mobile only.

[viscid sundial]

Are we still on the manta cutscene discussion

[zenith mist]

why does it matter how long it will take to add new diving areas? we got the new sanctuary area not very long after abyss. if not now, when is the time then? how many new additions and areas does it need? who cares??

[unreal python]

Having the new Sanctuary event added so close after Abyss' development has been pretty quick, in my opinion. Seems like a good sign for future underwater development.

[viscid sundial]

At this point is this rly about beta ...

[spark lance]

If it matters so little I don't see why people are defending the change so hardcore

[sullen relic]

It is though, since the change to the diving mechanic hasn't been implemented in live yet (unless I'm mistaken) -- that change is still beta-pending

[random agate]

I know that it's going to be a core mechanic but the whole game really starts after that first run. We don't know of they'll change the base experience for a first run which is why I don't think it's necessary to move if it'll only affect the core gameplay after the first time.

If it changes the first time, then sure, move it. But if it doesn't that's where my thought stand.

[zenith mist]

thanks for twisting my words moe

[viscid sundial]

I'll have to check, both patch notes blend in my head at times

[unreal python]

For example, if a moth during their first time gets to explore an underwater riverbed in Hidden forest and collect wax shells, is that really a detriment to their first experience? In fact, wouldn't it make them more excited to explore more underwater locations in their future runs?

[tiny tinsel]

i think it’s a bit dense to assume moths can’t enjoy the game or mechanics of the game or events that utilize something that was first introduced later in the game progress until they’ve completed eden.

[random agate]

When did I say it would be detrimental to their experience?

I'm saying we don't know if the first time will be changed, leave it, if it does change, them move it

[random agate]

I think it's a bit dense to assume I'm trying to impede their enjoyment.

[zenith mist]

i think this whole conversation is dense

[viscid sundial]

I was gonna say the same lol... I don't know why y'all are still on this

[sullen relic]

It's less that they "can't enjoy" and more that some content is given to them more upfront, which can potentially diminish the pacing and experience of the game. An easy comparison to make there would be why new players can't automatically jump to 11 flaps, though that does start going into the territory of "earned abilities" a little more (though that's intrinsically tied with staggered content pacing)

[spark lance]

I didn't mean to, but the "who cares" argument doesn't do much for me

[zenith mist]

youre right, the issue is some people care a little too much

[unreal python]

Admittedly I think we've hashed on this topic for quite some time, I'm going to step away because I can recognize I am getting a little frustrated and caring about this too much for a weekday.

All the same, it is nice that we were all able to participate and share opinions. I'm glad I don't have to do game design for a living though, I suppose.

[spark lance]

Right, so telling them to care less is not all that compelling

[random agate]

Fair point

[zenith mist]

im starting to think this is more of a "new thing bad" situation rather than an actual issue

[tiny tinsel]

no matter what we all think tgc is going to make a decision not everyone will agree with but they’ve stated their plans and reasons for it. if u cant fathom that a moth will get diving a little earlier that’s not my issue really

[sullen relic]

If anything, the devs seem to encourage us to discuss what we care about provided discourse is healthy -- there generally hasn't been too many cases of "care too much" as opposed to "poor handling of how users care about something"

[spark lance]

Well then you're not seeing where we're coming from, which is a shame

[random agate]

I think it's more people have different ideas on what to do and that we don't know what all is happening yet, so we're throwing out ideas and sticking with them. [Myself included, I won't lie here]

[zenith mist]

just because we disagree doesn't mean we don't see where you're coming from. being condescending is not the way lol

[spark lance]

Saying it's because we think "new thing bad" makes it rough man, just being straight with you

[spark lance]

(Referring to this)

[zenith mist]

im going to be straight with everyone and say this conversation is going nowhere

[spark lance]

I thought it was productive. But oh well

[zenith mist]

it wasnt
or at least..it was. a couple hours ago

[random agate]

I never even closed myself off to that idea??
Like i said, if it changed the first time, go ahead. It makes sense to move it then. If not, it makes sense to leave it where it is personally. Please stop assuming things that I have stated that I was not opposed to

[sullen relic]

It was actually pretty productive in terms of letting people voice their opinion on the matter -- I feel like it only looked unproductive to people who were looking to make a clear winner out of an argument rather than letting people voice how they felt

[spark lance]

Agreed..man

[tiny tinsel]

i did not directly reply to your message for a reason. it was a general statement.

[zenith mist]

im going to do the mature thing and disengage. have a blessed day to anyone choosing to continue this topic lol

[sullen relic]

The choice is ultimately up to TGC, but seeing more of what we think helps inform them of how they may want to try approaching the whole thing

[random agate]

I kind of assumed since it was generally me and you discussing, so my bad

[viscid sundial]

Wouldn't it be epic if we moved onto smth else now

[tiny tinsel]

yeah i’m gonna head out of here too. i’ve got some trials to do. toodles

[viscid sundial]

Cya fox! Gl with trials

[spice mason]

Hey don't yall think this is wild that performance is my 8th beta season

[viscid sundial]

Damn that's crazy, it's my 2nd

[spice mason]

Whoops. 8th. But yea. Nddhhes

I've been around for a while i am just kinda vibin...

[viscid sundial]

Beta testers truly are vibin

Haven't been able to get on today cuz my wifi has been out

[shy ore]

I'm 6th

[gilded parrot]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593565781166391316/832872714967842826/Untitled90_20210416150354.png

[thick ibex]

reminding me how I have had 0 motivation to get on live or beta because gender dysphoria but getting back on today to do some cr is pretty nice ngl

[west hinge]

some people care more about the storytelling and emotion, and the louder larger rest seem to not enjoy deeper experiences

[west hinge]

yeah ktjin was pretty adamant about wanting a tutorial, maybe we'll actually see it come to fruition thatd be sick!

[west hinge]

they said that??
yoooo thats actually nice!

i still support whoever had the idea for the ice rink to be the swimming tutorial, that'd be great

[viscid sundial]

That'd be neat, also there's #beta-feedback to send ur ideas to as well

[west hinge]

nah i have confidence, i even have hope in a 2nd underwater season someday

[west hinge]

yeah, it's kinda sad people just... stick to their sides /:

its impossible for many people to openly consider other ideas, that goes for a lot of things in life, that's the reason why discrimination exists...

[west hinge]

definitely yee

[unreal python]

I did want to say, being painted as not caring about the storytelling and emotion, or not caring about deeper experiences, just because I support a gameplay mechanic being more available to newer players feels a little hurtful.

I care a lot about the story. In fact, part of the reason I support this change is that I believe it will better benefit the story of the manta. Instead of being interpreted as a fancy way the game gifts you an ability, now it stands as a character in its own right.

[lucid star]

Man argue whatever you want but it's a little corny to go to a different channel and start calling the person you had a conversation with aggressive and such without their knowledge I'm just saying like

[viscid sundial]

Yikes... I just saw

[west hinge]

yea, in a way, i kinda only did that a little out of spite of being painted as someone who
"wants moths to suffer" just because i want players to be able to have deeper experience

it was rude of me tho, so im sorry wander

[raw wasp]

Random but the manta felt a bit like that one Luma in super mario galaxy

[carmine thorn]

Maybe adding a second meditation stone to enable diving in forest somewhere...

[unreal python]

Thank you, I appreciate the apology. I know it can get easy to be attached to your values and opinions, so I understand. But know that even if someone disagrees with a point of view, it doesn't necessarily mean they care any less.

In fact, I think the reason why we all discussed this for so long is because we all cared about this a lot.

[west hinge]

idk, it just felt like a lot of pressure, was really interesting tho, im so glad it happened

[west hinge]

tbf i was aggressive too
in one moment i accused the devs that they didnt even try to think about other options
i got really heated for a whole second and it was uncalled for

[viscid sundial]

There's no need to vaguepost about ppl tho

[lucid star]

You're frustrated that she made an assumption about you based on what you said, but you did the same thing. Everything she said to you was to your face, so it's only fair to give her the same consideration. I agree that Ktjn can say harsh things, but starting a conversation about it without her input fixes nothing.

[west hinge]

you're frustrated
yea
in the end, i reserve that right ig

but saying "waitwaitwait that was pretty aggressive of you" is irrelevant and would have halted the discussion, i cared more about having that talk than my feelings, it's called self control, of course i didnt break down right there and then lolol

there's just frankly nothing to fix
i took a deep breath after it all and in the end it's whatever

[unreal python]

Tone can also be hard to read over text as well, sometimes. I've had cases where I thought I was coming off calm, only for the other person to feel like they were being yelled at.

Just offering a possibility for how the past conversation went down.

[lucid star]

Hi Ktjn 😁

[west hinge]

yea, many people say i have a problem stating my tone, its true lol
i enjoyed the dispute way too much tho i was just glad to hear and be heard

[vapid briar]

i must say it's fascinating to watch in real time how i'm talked about when it's presumed i'm not around.

[lucid star]

I think it would have been simple to just clarify that's not what you meant instead of taking it to heart

[unreal python]

A thorough analysis of the subject must be done. 🔍 🕵️

[vapid briar]

even moreso to see how quickly words get twisted

[west hinge]

they certainly do

[vapid briar]

I'd say that I didn't make any assumptions about what Jam said, but I did deliberately apply as much bad faith to their argument/reasoning as they applied to design decisions I helped make.

[tardy hawk]

[lucid star]

That's fair

[spark lance]

A little petty maybe

[west hinge]

yea, which was understandable

in general, im sorry for being so rude, it was absolutely childish of me

like stated before, i couldnt have known what went on

[placid iron]

(Bit offtopic but) I'm just wondering but what are yalls opinions on the season logo? I like it

[viscid sundial]

May be better in #beta-season-test-chat !

[frigid shadow]

kraft singles 😎 (not that it's a bad thing lol)

[placid iron]

Yea probably

[vital dune]

Fancy fancy. I like that it resembles stage curtains

[vapid briar]

I very much appreciate that they took the time reflect on that and let me poke holes in their stance on it. I have the luxury of the full context of what led to the decision, and the considerations made before arriving at it. they have only as much context as provided (which is why i popped in to give more) and rely on guesses and assumptions about the rest, which could have easily been spot on as it much as (this time) it was not.

we spend a lot of time settling on what level of progression to gate content, and we had entertained the idea of blocking the nature content behind unlocking diving from wasteland. ultimately we felt it was more important to break the 4th wall a bit there to include a larger section of the playerbase in what we hope is a lovely experience, a new permanent activity in an earlier level, and make use of this cool new mechanic that we feel is strong enough to have a seat at the "everyone should get this as soon as possible" table of game mechanics. and the consensus was pretty unanimous. it also made take a look at other things that require a certain amount of game progress to achieve.

[cursive tinsel]

Oooh of course, you need diving for days of nature turtle event..or at least to enjoy it to the full

[vapid briar]

lowering the barrier to entry has a dramatic effect on whether or not a new player sticks around for more than a few hours or few days. which, for you all as dedicated players (so much so that you participate in beta, and joined the discord server and care about the world of sky so much you are willing to go to bat for things you believe in) may find it difficult to look at things as obstacles and nuisances instead of cherished experiences.

[lucid star]

No I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. We're a little less inclined to see something as an obstacle because we've been playing for so long. I know when I first started beta it was interesting to have so few wings again and realize how tough it is for newer players to get around.

[west hinge]

yee in the end i was sold, there's just no better way yea

i still think itd be cool if the manta would speak in text to us like the voice in the intro, asking us to save it from the abyss, but yea
(and yes I'll put in feedback lmao)

[misty swallow]

and we already knew the spirit locations and wing locations.. it was a hard time i still haven’t got many of my wings back out of laziness

[vapid briar]

i poke and ask questions because i want you to step outside your own lived experiences and look at it from a different perspective. it's never out of malice, but may be intentional to provoke an emotional response. at the end of the day we're human, perfect decisions don't exist but we hope that we arrive at the best decisions considering the circumstances. and if we don't, we do our best to recalibrate to achieve that. sky's a live, ever-changing game, which means the "best" decision today might not still be the best decision months from now. it is both a blessing and a curse that nothing is truly concrete. it's great because we can react and make changes, and also terrible because change can be very scary and easily maligned before giving it a fair shake, especially if it's not fully understood.

one of the nice things about introducing diving early now is it's very low stakes for a moth, there aren't a lot of places they could accidentally drown in a puddle. we'll likely continue to polish the new player experience to prevent that from happening when we do add some more dangerous puddles

[lucid star]

Bold to assume a moth wouldn't simply walk into the isle ocean out of curiosity

[tardy hawk]

slay ktjn, you’re girlbossing so hard right now

edit: face me like a man bea

[lucid star]

STAR WHAT

[tardy hawk]

I SAID WHAT WAS NEEDED

[vapid briar]

bold of you to assume we'll let them

[torn gust]

No joke thats literally absolutely what i did 😭 saw the big obvious tunnel and was like “hm thats sure where they WANT me to go. What if i go the opposite way and swim into the ocean incase theres SECRETS”

Then the windwall said

[west hinge]

well this isnt a change we can come back from if we theoretically find a better solution

we cant give the ability to them then take it away later so yea

this will end up being pretty solid in the path the game takes

[lucid star]

Sometimes as a moth you just gotta fight the game, you know?

[west hinge]

in the end, as i said before, i had recognized it was a lecture and a prodding for deliberate reactions, and i didnt appreciate that, as i said, but i like being uncomfortable, its fun, so this was pretty cool nonetheless

glad you got the reactions you wanted!

[vapid briar]

looking at it from the perspective that'd we need to take it away in the future is prolly a rough start point. better to think about how we build up to the point of it being unlocked. keep in mind you still need to wade through a few levels before you cannonball into the sea.

[raw wasp]

Obviously the moth could just put on some 72 inch platforms and slay their way through the windwalls 💅

[lilac solstice]

I definitely didn't do that as a moth and hit a wind barrier while flying.. No no..

[tardy hawk]

purr 💅🏾

[raw wasp]

See: high heels game

[zenith mist]

no matter what ktjn said, going to the lore channel afterwards to talk about it and directing people to read the conversation is really weird.

[lucid star]

30 Times The Windwalls Were Not Strong Enough

[viscid sundial]

All of the 30 times were beta testers table driving to the penguin suit

[torn gust]

example one: windwall maze to Penguin vs Throwing a table repeatedly at the wind

[crude parrot]

if we all go towards it at the same time the windwall can’t stop us all

[vital crystal]

Skids together strong

[lucid star]

weekend plans

[tardy hawk]

yknow they said that about area 51… i mean, it’d be hella worth a try

[lucid star]

Maybe we can nab the elder/questgiver zodiacs at last

[crude parrot]

scribbling that onto the to do list

there will b no such thing as rest until isle elders zodiac is found

[lucid star]

Then maybe we can still eat the 25 cents and reeses pieces if Ash doesn't want them

[cursive tinsel]

Yes that table drive to the golden angels/skykids oob in starlight never had a role ig....makes you wonder what the concept for metallic gold kids was about

[crude parrot]

25 cents n reeses pieces rlly is a steal

[lucid star]

Buy now and we'll throw in a rock absolutely free! It even travels!

[thick ibex]

My beta skykid is roughly a year old and I don't know why it surprises me

[solid scroll]

Is anyone else having trouble with revealing the floating spirits memory from vault- i keep going through the loop of following its path and at the end restarts

[pale junco]

Are you sure you are reliving the right spirit

[final garden]

I recognize that you're referring to the table drive, but thank you for the mental image of a Sky kid being smacked in the face by a chair they threw into a wind wall

[knotty shadow]

Has anyone found the legit way to get to penguin-chan yet
Edit: I’m talking about the penguin suit

[timid basalt]

did u pray at the altar before lighting the spirit?

[tawdry pine]

Wdym by legit way?

[viscid sundial]

There is a wind maze you can navigate but it's hard to go through it (especially solo), ppl have though, and there are maps in screenshots if you search

[knotty shadow]

I found it! Tysm!

#beta-screenshots-videos message

[misty bone]

hope it would be easier for the solo peeps.. i still cant get thru the wind walls to the penguin orz

[cursive tinsel]

Has anyone's shared memories disappeared yet? Timed out like a shrine message after 48 hours?

[lilac forge]

So the new guitar is e-guitar and not base guitar? 🤔

[misty bone]

yes, we already have 1 base guitar... (dun go from belonging).. this one is the electric guitar

[tawdry pine]

Acoustic and Electric Guitar

[cunning vessel]

How do you get the clam to work ?

[timid bough]

i think it still broke

[delicate stratus]

just like android 8
that they can't fix even now

[shy ore]

Stop thinking about it! There's still hope to fix it!

[vast grail]

Random thought, but it would be so cute when the season hits live to see a server full with four pairs of kids duet dancing in unison and shaking hands vigorously after. We having a Sky ball.

[shy ore]

Don't tell me it's a PROM SEASON?!
Pls be fake

[vast grail]

Fake? the current testing had new friendship emotes that allows us to duet dance and have a new handshake.

[shy ore]

Im just kidding

[timid bough]

everyone: a 2 player friendship dancing emote would be cute imagine a ball
TGC:** SWING DANCING IT IS**

[oblique tiger]

hello may i ask i just saw about the
Next season will be a season themed around the
legendary giant-beaked kangaroo crabs is that true or?

[oblique fractal]

We don't have legendary giant-beaked kangaroo crabs... we have a penguin and stage theater

[oblique tiger]

for next season?

[oblique fractal]

Yes, next season is themed around performing ignore the penguin part

[oblique tiger]

because i heard that there will be a upcoming anime season

[oblique fractal]

That's just a rumor or fan made thing, so far nothing in beta can prove that

[grim cradle]

Sounds like clickbait to me

[oblique tiger]

oh okayyy omgawd there is an stage theatre

[vivid cave]

Anime season??

[oblique fractal]

The seasonal area is small tho, but the backstage is the main focus

Find some photos of the seasonal area in #beta-screenshots-videos

[oblique tiger]

yea i heard that they are collaborating with japan anime?

[oblique fractal]

No?

You meant kizuna ai?

[oblique tiger]

nope like after this the next season

[oblique fractal]

No. The next season has no collab

[carmine thorn]

Next they give us a "mosh pit" friendship action.

[oblique fractal]

Where have you heard of this "anime collaboration season"? There is no such thing in beta or live sky rn

[oblique tiger]

i tot that was true cause i saw the game designer was talking about it

[oblique fractal]

Anything that is true about a collab or so will be announced in a #beta-announcements for testing or in #news in patch notes and such

[carmine thorn]

Anime Japan is a convention. Iirc, TGC has a presentation during the event.

[oblique fractal]

Yep, but there is no anime collaboration season

[oblique tiger]

ohhh ic okay thank you

y’all seems to be friendly

[oblique fractal]

I'm too serious sometimes 💀

[oblique tiger]

hahha can see

[slender pendant]

Will the hair be changed next season?

[oblique tiger]

isn’t this

but the new version? of edit

[timid bough]

after performance we will have a season themed about mythical huge-fanged panda spiders
people are just getting too excited about events so let me dispel some rumors

• thatgamecompany is holding a presentation at AnimeJapan (an event) on march 27 with famous voice actor Yuki Kaji (mostly as presentor), where according to the TGC news post will talk about the next season (performance? idk) and other sky stuff

• TGC recently got an investment of 160 million coming from TPG (an investment company), along this news they are also getting Edwin Catmull a co-founder of pixar as an advisor

all these exciting news has caused some rather unconfirmed 'information" to come out, the reasons maybe for clickbait or pure excited speculation, but let's put that aside

there is NO clear sign of a collaboration YET besides the vague "you'll love it when you see it" from one of the TGC QnAs

nothing from Pixar neither Disney

[carmine thorn]

I would love a "to infinity and beyond" reference in a cutscene or something, though.

[timid bough]

saving that for the space season

[oblique tiger]

ohhh i see i understand thank you so much

because i’m from the chinese version of sky and everyone started to post around cause of nick! the (game designer) and they mistaken it

[idle spade]

Hi I wanna to get beta how can I get it ???

[drowsy fiber]

Read #beta-faq , it should have all the information you need. If you have further questions feel free to ask in the channel here 🙂

[spring goblet]

Which spirit has the music sheet?

[ornate yacht]

Haven't sent your test invite yet? It has been three months since the last release.

[glass spoke]

tgc doesn’t have a specific time for sending out invites. they only send them out when more testers are needed

does no one read #beta-faq anymore 🥲

[ocean verge]

i love how tgc staff always word their #beta-known-issues so well they make it creative by giving the spirits a reason for their buggy behavior and "encourage to get rest" aka fixing the bug

[slender pendant]

momoda

[lime spire]

why was i expecting the electric guitar to sound more metal? i was lowkey hoping sky metal could be a thing

[snow steppe]

Is the turtle pack included the ornament on top and the cape for 20$ while the turtle cape only for 15$?

Still on wip?

[pale junco]

In the first build
Turtle cape was separate for 14.99 usd
And Turtle pack: Turtle accessory was for 19.99 usd with 75 normal candles
Idk if that has changed

[radiant drum]

From the #beta-announcements note:

Because Days of Nature is still quite early in its development, we do not have tentative prices to share in the release notes. As usual, we do plan to donate a portion of the net proceeds[1] from Days of Nature charity items. We’re still shoring up details on partnership and specific numbers and can't wait to share those later once they’re confirmed!

[snow steppe]

All clear thanks for the info

[strong inlet]

[maiden timber]

[spark lance]

Imagine a spider themed season hahahaha

[fleet cave]

pls yex!!!!

YEX

[gilded basin]

prophecy 2 when 😳

[fleet cave]

inhales

don't

[gilded basin]

do

[worldly saddle]

I've been missing so much beta testing my iPad broke a while ago and I have to wait another week for a new one😭 I hope performance has been really fun so far!

[lament belfry]

no thanks, as a person with severe arachnophobia i don't think it's a good idea.

[gilded parrot]

Hello beloved citizens! Skybot here to remind you all that if you are having trouble finding something in Beta, please submit that to TGC in #beta-feedback! Please make sure to search it yourself before asking, and together we can help many Live skykids have a great experience

[solid scroll]

Yeah i eventually got it, when i restarted a couple times it fixed itself, thank you

[fleet cave]

we're inverse i love spiders lol

[rugged kayak]

i also personally think that a spider and/or bug themed season would be fun, however fear of bugs and spiders is a bit too common to have a season based on them 😅

[drowsy fiber]

It will appear at reset+50 minutes I think, then every 2 hours. Stand on the island the nature guide is on and watch the sea around you (or dive into the sanctuary abyss with the corals etc)

[viscid sundial]

Along w this, it's easy to think of it as every 5 min after grandma

[lilac solstice]

Now with even more painstakingly difficult parkour

[fleet cave]

unfortunately 😓

but it would be a dream. no doubt

||well, less for ace||

[fleet cave]

I doubt anything will be harder than the air test... *vietnam flashbacks *

[lilac solstice]

Air trial isn't even the hardest for me. It's earth but doing it normally

[rugged kayak]

air trial annoys me a lot only because i have beef with it x'D being unable to switch flight modes back then sucked

[minor falcon]

yesss more funky gameplay testing please

[rugged kayak]

now i personally find all the trials. fine. for the most part. save for the current lighting issue(?? i hope) in fire trial

[lilac solstice]

They're not too difficult until you come back after not doing them for months

[fleet cave]

i...Don't need air and fire trials 2.0 Version...thanks

[tiny tinsel]

i kind of blow through trials now for the most part except fire trial because of the lighting bug (unless i bring a friend )

[nocturne wigeon]

||Someone is trying to hint at the next season in cozy and I'm ||

[lilac solstice]

Yeah I saw that

[dawn cairn]

I finally logged onto beta again and I was wondering, ||why is the abyss quest giver where the ts usually is?||

[drowsy fiber]

Are you on the 186720 build? It was said to be fixed in patch notes...

[dawn cairn]

I likely am not, I just got back into my account from a while ago I'll update it and see if that fixes it

[kindred fossil]

Doot

[autumn sundial]

DOOT

[naive solar]

THE

[proud coral]

hi fellas

[kindred fossil]

Foot

This upfoot includes:

• Constellation polish
• Updates for Days of Nature Light turtle in Sanctuary
• Season updates, including cutscenes, sound effects, and cosmetics
• Shared memories improvements
• Other bug fixes and improvements

[peak mason]

doot doot doot sound the trumpets

[autumn sundial]

😭

[minor falcon]

dooooot

[pale junco]

Oh?? Doot

I don't see on playstore

[drowsy fiber]

Google is always slow... Try searching for the app, find the app under the "installed apps" play store part, clearing the cache... Those might help but none is a guarantee, sometimes Google just needs a while.

[pale junco]

Ik Google hurry

[minor falcon]

ready to make another ult hair collage /hj

ult hair band is gold again!

[autumn sundial]

I’m working 🥲 I’ll see you later my beloved gold band

[kindred fossil]

Rev up those fryers!

[minor falcon]

or rather a shade of gold/silver... ack, archive it is brb

[desert token]

has anyone managed to open the large shell that spawns with the turtle event yet

[drowsy fiber]

Last update no, current one I don't have yet.

[cursive tinsel]

We have 30 mins until we find out then ....

[desert token]

I realise I forgot to report that specific bug as well - got tired after 6x reports about the seasonal quests 💀

[pale junco]

Android updoot is here

[river pine]

That was quick

[cursive tinsel]

Did anyone work out what they meant by 'logic' in the last update notes?
"improved logic that determined how and to whom the turtle appeared during its periodic visits"

Makes it sound like that lack of sunset and turtle isn't a bug....

[pale junco]

Google is again saving up hours to turn them into a day later..

[river pine]

I was wondering that too, I thought maybe there had to be a full server in the area or something

[desert token]

I assume it was a fix to address that the turtle/sunset was very inconsistent, though it seems to still be that way somewhat. mostly, I think it addressed that fact that your turtle might be underwater forever if you show up too late? but yes, it is quite confusing overall

[agile hazel]

Nice, wasn't expecting an update until next week

[cursive tinsel]

Maybe it was just improve the consistency of it appearing...still doesn't solve the shell lift issue....or puzzle?

[odd island]

I. Am. ENAMORED

that the red scarf costs EIGHT seasonal candles 😍😍😍

[fleet cave]

what the crabis doot

[fleet cave]

oh that Journey Character Clothes?

[odd island]

The rockstar spirit in season of performance 🌚

[viscid sundial]

UPDOOT ?

Updating right now let me in

[gilded basin]

UP ⬆️ DOOT 🎺

[viscid sundial]

Music shop please open

[gilded parrot]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593565781166391316/832872714967842826/Untitled90_20210416150354.png

[viscid sundial]

It is that deep actually

[gilded parrot]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593565781166391316/832872714967842826/Untitled90_20210416150354.png

[proud coral]

Please, it is deep

[viscid sundial]

HELLO???????

[gilded parrot]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593565781166391316/832872714967842826/Untitled90_20210416150354.png

[minor falcon]

[gilded basin]

it's deeper than skybot could ever understand

[viscid sundial]

Who is controlling you skybot...

[gilded parrot]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/593565781166391316/832872714967842826/Untitled90_20210416150354.png

[gilded basin]

[minor falcon]

that's enough bot overlord

[ionic bluff]

skybots having a mental breakdown

[viscid sundial]

Skybot and I are going to fight

[kindred fossil]

We’re 6ft deep Skybot

[viscid sundial]

WE GOT ICONS N NAMES

[naive solar]

I HAVE BEEN SUMMONED

[desert token]

was it just me or did the amount of memory candles drastically decrease last build, only to return to the original amount shown in this one? I'm back at 6 per area now instead of the 2-3 I had this morning ;w; whyyyyy

[viscid sundial]

The!!!!!!! Headbob emote icon!!!!!!!! Is so cute!!!!!

[fleet cave]

...my play store are asking me to delete 3,34GB to updoot my Sky.....

[naive solar]

BRUH

[fleet cave]

I am 99,9% sure that this is not the size of the updoot. i hate u, Play Store

[gilded basin]

hnnghfg the head bop emote icon is so cute i hope it'll become a server emoji once it hits live

[lilac solstice]

Oh Yay Doot Doot!

[viscid sundial]

Turtle accessory was moved to a different location on the avatar, since this one confided in us that it's actually a little afraid of heights
buddy....

[fleet cave]

poor baby turtle

[viscid sundial]

Turtle goes on ur shoulder now!!!!!

[iron nacelle]

The wingbuff is back!

[agile hazel]

I love the idea, but it looks so janky

[fleet cave]

i- i wanna see this so bad

[naive solar]

I LOVE THE TUTLRLTE I LVOE JT SO MYCH

[viscid sundial]

The little buddy...

[orchid frigate]

Heyyy the missing WL is back!

[viscid sundial]

The hair looks practically perfect now imo

The pink tint??? I love that!!

[gilded basin]

pink, blue and white, as all things should be 🏳️‍⚧️

[pale junco]

"Enabled by default"
Does this mean assembly shared space no longer requires the quests to be finished?

[viscid sundial]

I love the hair even more now noticing this

[ionic bluff]

TRANS HAIR TRANS HAIR

[lilac solstice]

This hair has become even more of a favorite

[viscid sundial]

Performance guide is a trans icon (all spirits are but yknow..)

[agile hazel]

trans pingu hair

[light panther]

i approve of this 100%

[gilded basin]

man i might give it a try now that it's pink 😳 i also like the new silver band a lot more than the other one

[kindred fossil]

Slay

[craggy elbow]

🙏😔 silver hair scrunchie cute
and the blue shade is back

[kindred fossil]

Music shop continues to be non-existent

[final garden]

The little turtle looks so squished on my shoulder. It's also no longer unlocked for me, and I can't buy it again, so that's fun

[light panther]

maybe the music shop is the frie-

[twin isle]

How do I get baby turtle out of closet Is it not in pack anymore and we have to buy? It's not on season guide and game says I no longer own turtle

Turtle needs to feel sun on its mossy shell

[craggy elbow]

maybe they dont even know how to make the music shop

[gilded tree]

skybot took it and we've been trying to get them to give it back... wish us luck

[vast grail]

Turtle acting like a parrot. (They’re perched!)

[final garden]

Took it? Skybot probably ate it

[lilac solstice]

Did skybot eat it?

[gilded tree]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-and-egg-dog-with-egg-in-mouth-i-dont-want-it-dog-jukin-video-gif-15365683

[craggy elbow]

it ate and its gone now

[viscid sundial]

I apologize for fighting with Skybot I'll pay up with candles
Plz I need that music shop

[light panther]

i sure do hope the turtle wont fly off with my awful flying skills

[drowsy fiber]

Good luck. And Skybot, stop taking the things of the devs that are supposed to be in the game.

[kindred fossil]

“Skybot… give it back… we need to test it…”

“Fam. It’s not that deep.”

[fleet cave]

*sad Music Enthusiastic noises *

[gilded basin]

it's a neck accessory now 😳

[gilded tree]

we're reminding skybot that sharing is caring

[twin isle]

I see it but can't wear it. Game says I don't have Is it a bug I can't take turtle out of closet and can't buy anywhere that I can see?

[late berry]

Note to veterans
Pleas owls don't ruin our penguin hair bcz you feel jealousy please

Im literally gonna cry if tgc edit the ult hair again:"(

[kindred fossil]

As an owl hair haver & veteran, I am going to do triple backflips

[fervent ridge]

Uhm, where's the little turtle? it shows like I need to get it again?

[gilded parrot]

Reminder that as testers, we should try looking for things in Beta ourselves when possible! If you are still struggling to find something, please remember to submit it in #beta-feedback as that feedback is very valuable for TGC and can help many players in Live

[craggy elbow]

😔 did you mean to tag me tho
im a lowly android moth i --

[reef lion]

One day android fixes will be made orz

[viscid sundial]

Oooh I need to check if turtle event is rn

[late berry]

Some of them are mad latterly penguin hair dosent look like owls 💔

[gilded basin]

i mean it's only been the band and hair color, the shape hasnt changed at all since the second version it'll still look mostly the same once it hits live unless one of the devs goes rogue and gets at it with some shears

[final garden]

Thanks for bringing that winged light back, Ktjn!

[late berry]

I didn't see it yet , i hope they bringed back the second version

[fleet cave]

how much storage did Updoot take?

[pale junco]

37.7 mb

[fleet cave]

.........

[slate shuttle]

“Turtle location on the avatar was moved, it’s a little afraid of heights” mine isn’t. He’s built different.

[compact jetty]

Antigravity ponytail🐧

[fleet cave]

Playstore: so, u need 3,34 GB

[slate shuttle]

Also Ty for the update TGC staff thats so swag

[light panther]

medusa ponytail?????

[pale junco]

Yes, you need around 2 gb of free space to update 😔

[gilded tree]

Can confirm, the shape of the hair itself has remained the same since the second version you guys saw The hairband though has been tweaked though a few times thanks to all of your beta-feedbacks! (Of which there has been many regarding this hair )

[craggy elbow]

oh im pretty sure like 80% of the feedback was the hair at this point

[light panther]

I love it so much. I've always wanted something close to the owl hair. Soon enough (when comes back as a ts..-) i'll finally be able to make my sky sona lol. Can't wait for this season (i pressed enter too early)

[proud coral]

Turtle event now shows no shell but we still have a cutscene to show the shells "location"

[pale junco]

Turtle is afraid of heights but can clearly float- something isn't adding up

[craggy elbow]

I want the owl hair so i can finally use the tiger mask without clipping

[lucid star]

I love seeing all the creative edits of this hair in beta screenshots. I can't remember who it was but someone added a bow, which I thought was really neat.

[feral berry]

There’s no turtle anywhere… not in my closet, with the turtle spirit at home or either spirit in sanctuary… where did he go?!? 😭

[frosty trout]

I can confirm the accuracy of this statement

[final garden]

The turtle accessory doesn't really look quite right on a chibi's shoulder

It gets kind of scrunched up

[pale junco]

Next update: turtle has learned to fly and now circles skykid's head and follows them

[spark lance]

i want the penguin hair band be black

[final garden]

I always wanted the bird to do that

[light panther]

How sticky is the turtle...I do too many flips and I don't want it to fall off!!

[wraith agate]

nexo noooo the turtleee

[gilded tree]

turtle secretly has retractable claws hidden in its flippers that it uses to hold onto your shoulder with

[frosty trout]

We gave it some extra invisible velcro too as a backup

[light panther]

Oh no i can imagine the sound

[pale junco]

After seeing the "shoulder" placement i prefer the head one
Also we cannot wear turtle anymore because it moved to the props closet

[agile hazel]

Wearing the bird and turtle?

[wraith agate]

Ohno 😭

[wraith agate]

oh well sounds like a fair change

[spark lance]

unpopular opinion: but I think that this new addition of shared memories is something very polluting for the map, if it was in specific locations or in smaller quantities I wouldn't think so bad, However, there are so many candles on the map that it leaves the game map polluted

[final garden]

I have no problem with the idea of the turtle being on my shoulder, but it gets hidden by a lot of hairs, and it needs to be smaller for chibi shoulders

[pale junco]

Alr asking them to sit on my head for a treat

[light panther]

bird can carry the turtle

[pale junco]

What shoulder 🧍

[final garden]

I'm now imagining a gravity-defying stack of head accessories

[craggy elbow]

Boat 2 eletric bogaloo

[frosty trout]

Have you found the impact changed at all after the total number of candles that can be shown in one area was reduced?

[viscid sundial]

Not the person being asked, but having less of them shown helped a lot imo, but after this update it went back to being very polluting :c

[spark lance]

not much has changed, there are still a lot of candles scattered around the map, in the home there is an exaggerated amount of candles I believe there should be a limit number of candles appearing.

[gilded basin]

same 🤝 my only problem with it is that for whatever reason the lowered candle density only made the candles on the constellation stage and home shrine show up

[frosty trout]

Thanks! That sounds like it's not working as intended then. I'll pass this along

[final garden]

I'd like to see an option in the settings to just hide all of them, or hide them by whether they're from friends or strangers

[viscid sundial]

I think the constellation spot might need a bigger range where you can't place candles, cuz ppl r somehow still placing them on it... as well as in the air above it

[final garden]

I'm not really likely to open messages or shared memories anyway, especially if they're not from friends, so it'd be nice to not have to see them

[light panther]

As long as the candles dont block really nice looking areas/functionality then i'm okay with them!
(I play on both an ipad {small screen}, and switch so tapping things is a pain already)

[desert token]

in the build just before this I would see around 2-3 candles at home, now it is back to 6-7 (additionally, there are still lots of memory candles blatantly infringing on the areas that were supposed to be forbidden per beta updates)

[twin isle]

I still think my idea to make the shared candles white mushrooms that are small and low and glow like flowers is a good idea

vvvvMaybe flowers if they didn't look like glow orb ones and little small ones. Can't blend in too bad

[viscid sundial]

Would love for memory candles to look like flowers Should send that to feedback

[wraith agate]

cottage idea for the cottage wishlist

[spark lance]

well, for those who play on android, did you notice that the pixelated graphic has been fixed?
Before the graphics had a lot of blur at a long distance, and the clouds shaking

[frosty trout]

I hope you all will send these comments about the shared memory candles to #beta-feedback too ~~so that there's more to gather there than just comments about the ultimate hair ~~
🙏

[final garden]

I have no real opinions on the ultimate hair

[gilded basin]

hey there's also 50 messages from me about how cool the guitar is

[desert token]

I don't enjoy the feature where it auto-plays either - I got jumpscared trying to move off the constellation table when I first logged in since me dragging the joystick activated the candle that was placed in the middle

[light panther]

the guitar is cool though, don't blame you

[gilded basin]

YEAH like i was so apprehensive about having an electric guitar because i thought it'd be immersion-breaking but having it run off gems was super sick and lore-friendly i wish we got that design where there were gems where the dials should be from one of the earlier builds

[desert token]

I'm also still enjoying the sunset...

[gilded tree]

im so glad you caught those little details!!

[modest creek]

Anyone help... I couldn’t find the way to buy the new turtle accessory... it tells me to buy in the shop, but my shop is empty🥲

[drowsy fiber]

I've heard it's in the shoulder accessories area now, also maybe try checking at the sanctuary islands shop of the event spirit... Other than that I have no idea.

[stuck rose]

Idk if anyone mentioned but those dots on the left bottom of constellation u can actually hold and drag to swipe between the pages there but its hard to understand which dot for which page

[gilded basin]

it should be a neck accessory now but if it still doesnt show up then send in a bug report

[hollow compass]

They’re still litter and far too easy to accidentally click instead of whatever other button you’re aiming for. Currently, there is one candle that interferes directly with the friend constellation.

[modest creek]

I’ve checked all shops... including the one in sanctuary islands. Nothing there too... and it is the icon in the shoulder accessory which tells me to buy it🥲 is it bugs that caused it not to appear in the shop? Or is it because I have already bought it when it was still a head accessory

[twin isle]

Put into feedback but I really think the split issue of wanting shared memories vs thinking they are litter can be solved by giving an option to turn ui interactions off for them. Or visuals too if the look doesn't change to something less... Candle-y.

[frosty trout]

I think I've seen the candle you're talking about. But yeah, the team is working on ways to reduce that interference, though I don't have an ETA on when that will be in an update.

[hollow compass]

I don’t see how these memory candles will be any different to the message boats. Players will just use them for heart farming and now with the added “bonus” of being annoying with sounds and deep honk flashes.

[twin isle]

I think they're cute. They can be very helpful directing people to places (like one showed me how to get to wl in New area)or just showing cute memories. I like to go around and see what people do in them and listen to music people play.

That being said I've already talked about changing the look and ui interactions for them. Because yes issues with that and I'm mainly a switch player so when(if) it comes to live I'll suffer.

[stuck rose]

Or they should cost much more to reduce such behavior maybe like um around table spell maybe?

[light panther]

I just want to show people my cool piano playing
but yes, it's a shame it'll be used for heart farming and whatnot

[drowsy fiber]

To me yes there was a difference, a few candles like two or so felt far better than the 6 or 7 we had before. Especially since candles tend to be in similar spots all. I don't mind small reminders of Sky being a lively world but the 6 or 7 are too many in my opinion, the whole area feels too full of them. I am not sure what causes this, probably the candles somewhat interrupting the area a lot.

[fleet cave]

ey guys i'll buy the guitar 2morrow!!

[hollow compass]

Oh, they’re cute-ish here in beta, because we’re testing them, but I’ve already seen some not so nice examples that just make me worried for Live release.

[wheat panther]

I’m curious to know if we would get the ability to translate messages from Shared Memory candles

[stuck rose]

I wish we could at least copy messages from notes with long press as it works for chat so I could at least paste it in Google translate easily

[azure canopy]

where are the new spirits?

[gilded basin]

they're all in a new seasonal area inside the village of dreams, it's just past the entrance slide to the right

[sage dome]

not sure if this is the right place to ask ashkm but is anyone able to let me know where the spirit is in today's daily quests? i broke my phone so i can't see what one it is 😭

[kindred fossil]

Confetti Cousin you’ll find her atop the muffin dome at butterfly fields

[sage dome]

ohh thank you so much!!

[iron nacelle]

can nobody else get the shoulder turtle? i wanna equip it but cant get it :(

[kindred fossil]

No one is able as far as I can tell

[shadow stratus]

Can android 8 still not open the beta app?

[gray forum]

It makes so sad because I need the shoulder turtle.

[molten panther]

Please, no candles in Eye of Eden for Sky's sake! I couldn't light a shrine because of a badly placed candle. Eden is difficult enough without those candles. I think we should have dedicated areas for these. They're too all over the place.

[iron elbow]

did anyone place a candle behind that one column at the end of eden? cause I haven't been there yet but i need it so much

[raw wasp]

I think placing candles in eden has also been really helpful to some too though…

[viscid sundial]

You can also hide the candles btw...

[molten panther]

Why? They don't charge you as fast as the shrines do.

[raw wasp]

Ppl can deepcall you can they not?

[iron elbow]

they are recordings of deep calls

[molten panther]

You really like watching those memories in the middle of Eye of Eden? I got hit by rocks twice trying to close one candle that was blocking me from lighting a shrine.
That's 10 wings lost.

[iron elbow]

I dont see why a simple click would be inconvenient ( if a candle is placed in a convenient place, ofc)

[viscid sundial]

This would be better in #beta-feedback tbh

[fast skiff]

if you have feedback you’d like to send to TGC try #beta-feedback, avoid randomly cold pinging devs

[molten panther]

I already sent feedback. I guess it wasn't enough if said devs resorted to texting us directly here, no?

[iron elbow]

they just wanted to found out more about the issue, pal, feedback is enough

[viscid sundial]

To be fair they were asking someone else at the time

[molten panther]

I think you miss the point of this channel then.

[steel sapphire]

the winged light is finally free from the wall!

[viscid sundial]

Either way you shouldn't cold ping devs