dnd-discussion

[minor cargo]

I think you might have misunderstood what was I saying. Let me try again: I think the mechanics (dice rolls and HP) should inform the narrative.

I’m saying you should trust in the mechanics, but realize what story is unfolding because of them.

You mentioned knowing how things will end. This isn’t what I’m driving at, though I can understand why you might read it that way.

[crimson gulch]

if your changing HP on the fly you are not trusting the mechanics though

[rough basalt]

Yeah that's my thoughts too.
If players decisions don't matter cause you're waiting for someone specific to land a hit and they keep missing for example then its gonna be worse than a boss getting ran over imo

[remote wadi]

But hey. Silver lining is that if I do ever come back there after a few levels, that's a +13 stealth that could make a few choice items a chance to be free.99

And if I really wait around and somehow come back at level 11, I could have a vendetta against him to make stealth checks +23

[nova trellis]

I just have HP threshholds/bars and depending on the context. I remove or add those thresholds. Like, if the party is clearly sick of the encounter or we need to end early. I can shave a bar off or to.

[crimson gulch]

and the moment your players learn that your changing things behind the screen you lose their trust

[minor cargo]

Haha I trust them at the start! It’s how I build my encounters.

But we all have experiences where what was planned to be a difficult fight by the books ended up being a breeze (and vice versa) (I assume).

Yes sometimes that’s just how it goes, but at key junctions in the narrative, sometimes I want the gameplay and narrative to be more harmonized. So I might start with a boss having N HP. And then noticing I tuned it to a lower level, I might decide last minute it should be N+M HP.

[rough basalt]

Ye cause what else are you changing

[minor cargo]

My players know I do this. And they trust me? I get what you’re saying but if we want to get personal, yeah, that’s not my table.

Maybe for others - so that’s fair I suppose.

[rough basalt]

Me personally as a player if I find out my choices don't matter I'm leaving.

I'd rather someone crit my character arcs final boss 4 times in a row instantly killing them then their moment getting taken away so I can do 2 damage and "oh they died"

[minor cargo]

So “DM changes HP” means “Player choices don’t matter”? Sorry if that sounds accusatory but looking to make sure I’m understanding.

[crimson gulch]

Yes i have had those expereinces where my fights get dunked on, and i have learned from those on how to better challange folks.

Gamplay and narrative are in harmony when the narrative flows from the gameplay and is not cut off from it by fudging the numbers, if you want things to go a very specific way you don't start a battle you just narrate it.

[minor cargo]

You keep saying I want my battles to go a certain way - but I keep saying I want dramatic tension. I don’t see these as equivalent.

[rough basalt]

That's how I see it.
Changing it on the fly means that choices ultimately don't matter cause it means that whatever choices you made to reduce HP weren't choices you made, it was the DM deciding you vibed hard enough to do damage.

[nova trellis]

Any Resident Evil 4 fans here? That game has something called adaptive difficulty where depending on how good the player is, the game then spawns or removes ammo and healthbars or even slightly tweaks the encounters in the next room.

[crimson gulch]

Yes, because your players built their caricters with capabilities to deal damage, cast spells and do all these other wonderful magical things, and by fudging the numners you in fact take away the potency of those choices by forcing a more specific outcome that you desire

[still plover]

Add a goblin, take a goblin.

[nova trellis]

Are we also against increases or lessening gold amounts, maybe tweaking future encounters based on the performance beforehand?

[jade hatch]

That's my reminder to throw more health potions in loot pools lol

[minor cargo]

But… they didn’t know how much HP the enemy had in the first place. They still do the same amount of damage. 34 fire damage on a fireball is still 34 damage - and likely not easily ignored (assuming like… an encounter where it’s supposed to matter).

[empty thicket]

bro... i already didnt had more than 160gp and im using it in materials for stuff, ammo and weapons.

[rough basalt]

If a regular bugbear takes like 80 damage cause the dm wants one specific player to hit to finish it off, people are probably gonna notice.

[empty thicket]

and rations or info, idk how it feel having more than 200🥀

[nova trellis]

I brought the Resident Evil 4 example because good adaptive difficulty isnt something you're supposed to notice.

[empty thicket]

we have a golem book and i doubt we ever reaching the price for it, not even a clay one

[rough basalt]

Yeah like players are breezing through a Bandit dungeon so Bandits who were on patrol come back and find the carnage so they ambush the party mid-encounter

[crimson gulch]

sounds like your encounters need to be harder overal if this is your experience, I build tension with Narration, Banter, Envronments that inspire fear. and i track HP dilligently

[rough basalt]

That to me is adaptive difficulty that's healthy to the game

Not one Bandit just rapidly regenerating or magically getting hurt without being touched by anyone.

[nova trellis]

@minor cargo go, go further. Add secret phases to bosses if the players surge them down. Or simply not if the players enjoyed the encounter.

[rough basalt]

Phones about to die so final statement would be
If all that decides combat is vibes then why are there character sheets and dice.

[minor cargo]

It’s weird that you keep criticizing my style as if it’s some gotcha.

Like because I do it differently, my style has a deficiency? This feels weird.

But I guess to keep going, I’m also talking about when I tune an encounter TOO hard. There have been times when I look at a monster and I say “Okay, this should be medium difficulty” - and it stomps them.

So I watch as the combat goes. If I feel like having the players’ heads knocked around is a good narrative beat, I leave it. If it’s incongruent with the narratives I change it.

[minor cargo]

Yeah. I do this too. And I have enemies that might join in later - as was mentioned. To me, this sounds like the same kind of tool as HP tweaking.

[rough basalt]

I just let the players die if the monster is a killer.
Cause if they aren't running away from a combat encounter gone wrong then it's on them.

Having additional enemies show up organically is very different than deciding combat based off vibes

[empty thicket]

sometimes a reality check is good. Doing a strong attack that almost down one of them is a good way

[sturdy adder]

In an upcoming campaign, I'm playing a noble who grew up in an elvish territory, but I don't know much about the actual lore or locations. Any suggestions as to where she could be a noble of?

[rough basalt]

Better off asking the dm

Cause a nobles lore will be dependent on region, setting, and the dms lore if that setting is their world or their take on a setting.

[empty thicket]

yeah, the dm will have more context and can help you better.

[crimson gulch]

I am criticizing your style very much right now because I have been at a table where the DM admitted to doing this, and when I looked back i realized that nothing ever mattered in his game because his attempts to build a narrative were not backed up by solid mechanics.

And i feel very strongly on this topic as a result. so when someone says they are not tracking hit points because of their narrative desisres, that is a red flag to me.

if i sit down at a table and hear that HP is not getting Tracked, i get up and leave.

[jade hatch]

I think your player style just doesn't line up then and that's fine

[crimson gulch]

Agreed here, player charicters die in my games

[jade hatch]

Imo if I do 78 and you decide 1hp on the next turn isn't gonna matter then that's fine

[minor cargo]

I don’t really see it as that different. So to something you said earlier: you value player autonomy. Like your decisions should matter.

Of course that’s valuable!

But when another wave of enemies show up, it’s important it feels like it’s still respecting that feeling right? I’m saying that if you tweak HP, it can still feel that way.

Yeah you can do it badly, just like you can introduce a new wave (or boss phase, which was also brought up) badly. But that’s why I see them as similar.

[rugged hawk]

If players aren't dying, you're not using enough Terrasques.

[nova trellis]

Is it really though? More enemies are just more health bars and if you decide to add enemies(with the choice to add or not add them in depending on the encounter) you're still changing a encounter based on vibes ya?

[crimson gulch]

Suprisingly i have never got a PC kill with a Tarrasuqe, and i have ran them a lot

[rugged hawk]

The trick is to use Terrasque Demiliches

[shut thistle]

Hello everyone. I am going to be dm for first time. I was just wondering how I should make the bosses I made a map and a story but bosses are what makes it hard. any tips?

[jade hatch]

I'm chill with a DM on the fly going "you know what, a phase 2 with fire immunity would be neat", but that's because I'm here for the fun improvisation

[jade hatch]

#dm-discussion can help you out more specifically (though I'd always say don't do a single monster, go with 2 medium minions)

[minor cargo]

So… again??? I DO track HP?

I used a pithy line because of the meme?

I’m saying HP informs my DMing, but I ultimately referee it - and I use it to reinforce the narrative (fun)?

Maybe we can hit the pause button. Obviously this has caused you problems in the past and I’ll recognize that. The situation you described sounds frustrating.

But I’m trying really hard to clarify that this bad experience you’re describing is NOT what I’m describing.

[shut thistle]

Appreciate it mate

[empty thicket]

Each time we say Skavens from wharhammer vermintide, the dm add 5k more of skavens we are going to fight.
Im expecting is a joke but im already trying to make bombs and molotovs, one is never ready enough.

We are now in 130k skavens.

[elfin narwhal]

Okay, which should my DND OC be?

1. An elf mage who turns out to actually be a robot modified to look like an elf.

2. A weredeer/weremoose elf mage who is super cute and adorable until she transforms into a large deer like monster

3. A simple fox girl with autumn vibes

[lavish flame]

This is necromancy, but I made a boss with like 100 health or something that the party just regular damaged beforehand. The story was the finale, not the entire fight. Level 7 sounds right to me, but I don't exactly remember. The fall was around 30 damage, the barb passed a save to take half damage the enemy failed, barb had Rage up so that got halved again. The enemy just ate the 30 damage or whatever and croaked.

[oak grotto]

I can tell you that werecreatures aren't really playable options unless you specifically pick a certain blood hunter subclass.

[molten pumice]

Some people view D&D strictly as the game it was designed to be where the only stuff that matters is what the game mechanically allows and you only have freedom to tweak how you describe the game doing what the book suggested you're allowed to do within the confines of its specific programming. Other people view D&D as the game it advertises itself to be, where you're able to do whatever you want because the ultimate goal is to tell engaging stories with your friends.

In a story, the bad guy dies when it makes the most sense for the bad guy to die, even if it looks like the hero did a particularly relevant hit to cause the bad guy to die. If you play D&D for what D&D has been promising for the last decade, which is captivating stories, then it makes sense for a crit from the character who has the most narrative connection to the villain to be what kills them. If you play the game just to move pieces on a grid and shave away hit points, then you'd obviously feel cheated by not getting to watch yourself shave then down. It's 2 different games sold in the same box so it leads to a lot of back and forth between people who would never play together anyway.

[crimson gulch]

im fine stepping back from it if you like, but your very first message ended with

So I change the HP. And if I’m changing the HP anyways that’s where I challenge that being strict about it is not nearly as necessary as a lot of folks seem to think.

and memes aside i still feel strongly that this is not a good practice to engage in or recommend to others.

[nova trellis]

If a DM added more health to boss to extend a encounter. You still did damage no? Like, to get to the point of the DM basically adding another phase, you still got the boss down to that point. Bit of guess on my part but I feel your DM probably did a lot more then adaptive difficulty to make you lose that trust.

BTW, thats just a guess, honestly, fill in those gaps in the story.

[crimson gulch]

Adding HP is basicly eracing Damage, so did you really deal any?

[empty thicket]

welp, sometimes a dm dont expect a damage outpost. I think its better for some encounters having enemies with lots of hp and few AC instead of high AC and normal hp.
Hitting feel better than missing lots of times

[minor cargo]

So then if I can try to summarize: you feel it’s a bad practice because:

1. It erodes trust with players
2. It betrays the game design
3. It’s a stop gap for bad DMing (prep and design)

That’s not meant to point a figure or anything but get on the same page.

[gray garden]

one of the most forgotten dnd creatures has to be plants so why not allow druids to use there wild shapes to turn into not just beast but plants as well

[empty thicket]

you arent wrong, still, you can flavor some attacks like you were using plants

[fickle heart]

Do you have any examples of situations in which you've nudged HP up or down to dramatic effect? Examples almost always serve to get people on the same page, in my experience.

I'm assuming that you aren't referring to widely dramatic changes of HP, like "double it", and that "nudges" are more accurate, but let me know if I'm getting that right.

[empty thicket]

Charm? Use some flowers with a sweet smell
Poison? Make some fungus and explode them in the enemies or spray them with those toxins
etc. etc.

[crimson gulch]

That is a fairly good and concise summary.
Additionally the downstream effect of changing hp to reinforce the narrative can lead to other ways of forcing an outcome

[lavish flame]

I wish Plants and Oozes had more love

I'm very happy with 2024's Gulthias Blight and Blob of Annihilation tho

[gray garden]

ikr i just think it would be funny to turn into a awakened shrub and pretend to be a tree to get out of a sticky situation

[empty thicket]

polymorph wont let you do that already?

[gray garden]

polymorph is still beast only*

youd need true polymoprh of shape change

[empty thicket]

Damn... like, if im not wrong i read one time about... oh true, Wild magic sorc. One of the dices turn you into a plant

[gray garden]

its number 42 ive gotten it many times

[empty thicket]

jejejeje "at least i look like a pretty plant?"

and the unicorn from wild magic i find it funny too

[fickle heart]

Overall, I would largely agree with the assessment that tweaking HP can be a net benefit to the experience, though. If there is an opportunity to make a relatively small modification where the benefit far outweighs the cost for narrative purposes, I think you can get extremely notable game-moments from it.

A hypothetical example I'd give is that a notable monster's HP is slightly tweaked such that a certain PC whose backstory is heavily intertwined with that monster ends up delivering the killing blow, as opposed to requiring one more attack that would detract from the overall narrative. You end up with a significantly more satisfactory narrative resolution to what could be the closing of a PC's narrative arc than if you just kinda shrugged and said "them's its HP" and metaphorically 'robbed' the group as a whole of that moment that the PC can now roleplay very impactfully.

[minor cargo]

Good call!

Okay so there’s a boss. She’s built to be “warlock” (not really, just hexblade stuff plus “pact” vibes). She is the end of a small storyline that focuses on an NPC who connects the party with a guild of artists.

The party knock around this boss and she knocks them around a bit (and one party member is saving civilians).

After I think the 3rd round of combat, the cleric and rogue and sorcerer had all gotten ROUGH hits in (spirit guardians, a crit chromatic orb, crit sneak attack) - which she survived with like maybe 2-5 HP.

I just ended the combat there. The boss went from like 5 HP to zero because it felt narratively right to stop it.

[fickle heart]

Exact scenario I was thinking of (in my above hypothetical), hah!

[nova trellis]

I mean, yeah? The point of doing that is extending the encounter so players don't get disappointed by said encounter. Mind you, theres nuance with adding extra phases and knowing when not to do it because the encounter ended on a satisfactory note. Sometimes you hold extra adds because the encounter didn't need them. The point is to give your players a good experience. Some DMs skill at delivering that, can vary.

[fiery nimbus]

DM's that manipulate monster stats mid-combat are weak against drama

[woven flint]

Tamms. 👀

[crimson gulch]

And I will allways leave my boss with 5hp in this situation because an enemy on their last thread that gets one more turn is an epic narrative moment that I would not want to deny my players, they could be on the very brink of death and with their last gasp take as many of yall down as possible

[crimson gulch]

I never had My players get disappointed to hear "3 crits in a row????? HOW DO YOU WANT TO DO IT?"

[minor cargo]

Again fair. But I made the call that another round was a waste of time for everyone. The story was coming to a close, and another round wasn’t gonna increase the tension. Even if the boss got another round (probably not, probably low initiative), after a really good round by the players, that felt like the prime time to do a “how do you want to do it”.

[fickle heart]

I think this entirely relies on the actual in-the-moment situation, though. If the Rogue gets a hard crit or similar and then the boss dies to what could be seen as chip damage from the next person in initiative, I think the DM entirely flubbed what could have been a really cool moment.

[nova trellis]

And the boss is left with 4 hp. Do you end it there or let the player get the kill with the triple crit?

[jade hatch]

As with many DM things, it's a tool to use in the right moments or to ignore if you choose

[nova trellis]

You said thats pretty cool, I think that pretty cool.

[minor cargo]

(For reference my example is slightly different. I think we should keep going, but clarifying that for anyone tuning in.)

(Oh lol Also I’m going AFK. Please feel free to ping me. I’ll see it after I land.)

[fickle heart]

Personally, I'm much more inclined to minions or general enemies in a dungeon getting additional turns as they attempt to wear the PCs down, but with bosses, I much prefer the classic story approach of "exposition, rising action, climax" where the combat ends at the climax instead of the "falling action".

[crimson gulch]

The fight is over when the hp hits zero

[hushed mason]

Unless I'm about to kill a PC... why wouldn't I give them another round to finish the baddie off? Or for the baddie to run away? Sounds like exactly when they will make a last-ditch attempt at escape

[crimson gulch]

Nah, changing the hp would still be a mistake

[lapis sonnet]

kinda random but do these matches look doable and fun?

druid vs satyr in a 200 ft sprint
fighter vs a minotaur in a sumo match (ring is 30 ft big)
thiefling vs hobgoblin captain, the first to hit the other 3 times wins
cleric vs gnoll packlord, the first to kill the others hyena wins

[fickle heart]

I suppose I disagree with you on that. I think not changing the HP would be a mistake and make for a worse narrative.

[golden lily]

You got the perfect warlock, your weapons and supplies

But you need a place to track your stuff cause ya so disorganised

[nova trellis]

You didn't answer tho 😕 The boss survived with 4 HP. The player got a triple crit. Do you let the player get the kill even tho the boss survived with 4 hp?

[crimson gulch]

I have a hard line against fudging hp numbers of my enemies, been chatting about it here for about an hour?

[marble lion]

That definitely makes it less peculiar. It wasn't a oneshot.

[crimson gulch]

The boss survived the hit with 4hp, means the boss survived the hit with 4hp

[fickle heart]

I'm aware. From my own experience, though, I'm much less satisfied on both sides of the table with boss combats ending with chip damage killing the boss, because it feels like the DM threw away the narrative tension to uphold some arbitrarily standard that made the combat's ending worse.

[jade hatch]

Because it might be less satisfying for your table if the enemy is instead killed by something like Graze

It's a situational thing

[woven flint]

A Druid can definitely outrun a Saytr in mozt wildshape forms

A Whoever hits who first Is completely chance

And a whoever kills who just depends on who's stronger or just damage output

It's kinda hard to make most of these fun 😭

[crimson gulch]

The solution here is to ask the group as a whole "how do you all want to do this

[nova trellis]

Its situational. The point of the convo is the merits(or not) of adaptive difficulty.

[jovial shadow]

Why are your players fighting a Boss by himself anyway? In addition, no Boss should fight to the death anyway. At maybe 25% of their HP left they should be trying to negotiate or escape if they have the means (eg. teleport, hidden secret door etc.).

[coarse ravine]

Burrow

[jade hatch]

Well a t-rex might not be the negotiating type to be fair

[coarse ravine]

Not really a bbeg tho

But trex has minions.

[empty thicket]

unless the boss isnt too smart, i would place an int threshold for such things.
An ogre with 5 int would fight until dead
A giant with 10 int would surrender when it see its getting overwhelm

[fickle heart]

I think this largely detracts from the singular player's really impactful moment in the combat and doesn't let someone bask in the spotlight that they set the stage for. I'll admit I'd probably lose a bit of faith in a DM that asked the entire group how they wanted to kill the boss if I myself just crit it and expended something to boost my crit. I would similarly lose a bit of faith in a DM that said that if someone else crit it and expended something to boost their crit.

Essentially, I see the DM having a massively cool moment practically handed to them on a platter, and then they bungled it. A PC (and probably the entire party) will remember the crit that killed the boss, whereas the retelling will be significantly less exciting if it was "a crit that got the boss down close to death, and then...the Wizard used Fire Bolt to finish it off..."

[jade hatch]

Maybe not in tier 4, but it could be in someone's campaign. I agree minions are great, but in my experience they go down first

[lapis sonnet]

ugh i thought i nailed it. what if i make the satyr a quickling, make it so the sumo match has thin walls that u have to break before u can knock the person out, and the winner of the goblin fight is the one that amuses the crowd the most (taunting and hitting emotes and stuff)

[jovial shadow]

I guess not if your Bosses only consist of semi-intelligent reptiles

[coarse ravine]

Well like a trex could bring raptors etc

[lapis sonnet]

a quickling is way too fast nvm

[coarse ravine]

Yes!!! They are fantastic to run

[crimson gulch]

Strong disagree it reinforces teak work quite well in my experience, and that is a great way to enhance the narrative without fudging the numbers

You make it clear who defeated them and then left everyone pile into the victory celibration

[fickle heart]

Which is likely a different style than mine. I see that as detracting from the narrative, and thus my enjoyment. I'd view that as a failed opportunity from the DM, personally.

Psychologically, the tension in a combat would reasonably peak at the intersection of a massive burst of damage and the boss being extremely near-death, and the DM leveraging that tension to resolve the combat at the perfect climax is what would cement the combat in my memory, whereas the chip damage would make it more forgettable to me.

[still plover]

If I wanted good for the narrative to be a factor in the mechanics, I'd run Fate. When it's D&D I let the dice lay as they fall.

Your table may vary, of course.

[crimson gulch]

And I will never fudge the numbers to force an out come and don't reccomend that others do that either

[fickle heart]

While I would recommend others do that for dramatic pacing 😅

[near meteor]

First and session went well today lol
Had to roll for my stats and got 18 16 16 16 16 12

[still plover]

Now, non-standard statblocks, unique or customised content? Absolutely!

[lapis sonnet]

jeez 😭 lowk why i dont like rolling stats, causes some pc's to just gap the others in power

im a point buy enjoyer

[fickle heart]

Phrased differently, the crit finishing off the boss puts direct important on the crit happening at that exact moment, as opposed to the crit happening at all. Crits are cool, and killing bosses are cool. Killing a bosses with a crit is exceedingly cool, and leaning into that when the resolution would reasonably be the same regardless is something I think detracts from the experience.

[near meteor]

What's the point in stats tho
Didn't use them my whole session?

[still plover]

Well done rolling dice there.

[glass granite]

Yo can I borrow some luck

[near meteor]

I mean during my session I did succeed an arcana roll for so,e cursed dice that roll perfectly for me when I need to in exchange for disadvantage every other time

[lapis sonnet]

they are the values used in any kind of calculation/dice rolling during your game. need to roll for initiative? dexterity. want to see if that spell hit? charisma. how much hp do you have? constitution.

[still plover]

See, one person gets a bunch at +3, even a +4 from blind chance, and someone else might be wondering what to do with their best, a mere +2. Makes a difference in how the players see the game and their part in it. I always favour fixed allocations.

[near meteor]

Tbf I am only a druid so it's not like I'm using my stats to 3 shot bosses solo or anything

[fickle heart]

I think this is a perfect example of what I would consider as a "fail state" for this scenario.

[near meteor]

A support druid I should say

[fossil hollow]

All druids are supportish

[cursive thorn]

I choose the middle path.

Remember that dice don’t run your game — you do. Dice are like rules. They’re tools to help keep the action moving. At any time, you can decide that a player’s action is automatically successful. You can also grant the player advantage on any ability check, reducing the chance of a bad die roll foiling the character’s plans. By the same token, a bad plan or unfortunate circumstances can transform the easiest task into an impossibility, or at least impose disadvantage.

[coarse ravine]

Yeah you controly the battlefield and a pseudo supporter and second best healer

Druids are best at controlling battlefield.

[lapis sonnet]

how is a tarrasque 2x slower than a quickling.. how does a tarrasque even move 60 ft 😭 isnt it gargantuan

[near meteor]

2nd best? I mean I am only lv5 atm but I litteraly only have access to 1 cure wounds cast every long rest

[coarse ravine]

Cleric is best druids are second best

[fossil hollow]

Cleric is the de facto king of healing

[coarse ravine]

Would recommend healing word 100%

[nova trellis]

If it makes players happy if that crit got the kill instead of boss dying to a pebble next turn.. and what is fudging really. Have you never adjusted gold or item shop items on the fly? Or gold values from the chest. Or decided to withhold adds because the encounter doesn't need them?

[crimson gulch]

If the last hit point dosent matter in your games, do any of them? My position is no, and hit points are the pacing mechanic for combat.

[near meteor]

I can't find that anywhere on dnd beyond

[nova trellis]

DM as the referee and someone who contributes to the story along with the players. Thats how I see DMinh.

[crimson gulch]

There are a lot of things you can improvise on the fly in DnD. Not hp though

[cursive thorn]

You choose what matters, I get that you do not agree with Steve's point, but can you see where he is coming from?

[crimson gulch]

Yes, he wants to determine the outcome, not the dice, and I disagree

[cursive thorn]

Disagreeing is 100% fine, everyone plays the game differently and values different aspects of the game. But you can see what he is trying to convey, right? that he would rather fudge HP for a more appealing outcome.

I completely get his not bothering with another round if the enemy is at 4hp, I think Matt Colville has a video on the subject, about hp for monsters being a range, and he just tends to wait until they are in that range and end when it fills more cinematic. IIRC.

[crimson gulch]

Yes, I understand his point but I disagree that it'd a good one or can lead to better outcomes because you erode pc trust by forcing outcomes and fudging numbers

[cursive thorn]

Okay so you dont fudge anything?

[fickle heart]

Just for transparency, I'm not a big fan of casually fudging stuff, and that's not what I'm supporting. I'm supporting the tactical usage of slightly (this word is very important) nudging values to maximize the player experience for little cost.

A good example would be the idea that you just had a Paladin crit, expend a high level slot to smite, and get the boss to something like 2 HP. The Fighter is next and the Fighter has Graze, so they will kill the boss with their first attack regardless of what else happens. Do you:

1. Have the crit kill the boss and let the party celebrate the moment (and by extension celebrate the Paladin)?
2. Make it go to the next turn and have the Fighter automatically kill the boss?

My personal stance is that 2 is unaligned with my desires and I'd be unsatisfied with the result regardless of if I was the Paladin, Fighter, or otherwise, though I'd be pretty miffed if I was the Fighter and especially miffed if I was the Paladin (assuming the DM is experienced enough to understand the dynamics I'm referring to.)

[crimson gulch]

I don't fudge combat stats that's for sure, I open roll and tell folks the modifiers, ac saving throws ect

[knotty basin]

I agree with urizt

As a player I would hate if I my DM was fudging rolls

[crimson gulch]

If a player is dying and I'm rolling to execute them, I tell them " if either of these dice are above an 8 you will be killed" and roll where everyone can see

[coarse ravine]

Healing word and aura of vitality for measures. Its concentration but can be extremely useful

[cursive thorn]

I get that, thats dramatic and cool.

[crimson gulch]

If a boss is near death I write down its remaining hp and hold that up after a pc attacks

[fickle heart]

Yikes, I wouldn't like that.

[near meteor]

If theirs 3 things I e learnt about dnd today tho
1 it's a lot less tame than I thought it'd be
2 my groups gotten overly attached to a 2 year old goblin I'm very much tempted to kill
3 I like smashing walls :3

[crimson gulch]

My players love it, it's how committed I am to mechanical integrity of my games

[cursive thorn]

Yeah, I think we are just playing different games at this point TBH.

[crimson gulch]

If I write down a 22 and the player does 18 damage they see the 22 and know he has 4 left

[glass granite]

I think both sides have valid arguments

[minor lake]

i'm picturing this like the round cards in a boxing match

[fickle heart]

I think both sides definitely have valid arguments, and the important bit is the recognition that styles differ, and that there isn't a "best one", but a "preferred one".

[crimson gulch]

If they deal 24 damage and see that 22 it's a sweet victory

[cursive thorn]

100% this. I don't think Urizt was saying there was a right way?

[coarse ravine]

Oh yeah "Tame" is not in dnd it gets as wild as the players and Dm can have imagination within the mechanics

[cursive thorn]

I may be wrong though. I was wrong apparently Lol

[crimson gulch]

Yeah, it's wrong to fudge hp

I'm being quite firm on that stance

[fickle heart]

Urizt was saying that it's a bad practice to engage in or recommend, which I think can be construed as saying there's a right way.

[molten pumice]

It would be wrong for your table because that is not where y'all find fun.

[knotty basin]

Fudging is fine as long as you make it clear to your players that you’re doing it

[marble lion]

call me evil

[cursive thorn]

Oh ok, I thought you just couldnt see steve's point my bad.

[crimson gulch]

Yes

[knotty basin]

Ok. Evil.

[marble lion]

i think that statement is kinda like saying its bad to tell kids about santa

[coarse ravine]

Id say the only time its fine like maybe end of round and martial rolled low. So you give the martial a turn to finish the enemy. So they get their turn

[glass granite]

Hi evil

[near meteor]

Question
Is cure wounds set to just be a 1 time use until i long rest?

[crimson gulch]

Oh no I fully understand his position

[fickle heart]

For example, I'm already pretty aware that I would likely not prefer Urizt's games, as our styles would heavily clash as Urizt doesn't put value on things I find very important for D&D, such as backstories. That's not to say that Urizt's games are bad, just that they wouldn't end up meeting my criteria for what I personally consider "good D&D".

[molten pumice]

To label it as inherently wrong is to suggest there is only one way people can enjoy the "do anything" game, which is a level of hubris that is the only real wrong in the game

[knotty basin]

Depends on where you can cast it from

[glass granite]

Only if you got it through magic initiate and don’t have any other way to cast

Else, it’s depends on how many spell slots you have

[marble lion]

i think its fine to find something wrong

[nova trellis]

He's not forcing a outcome. He's slightly adjusting values for player experience. That crit example we keep coming back to is a done encounter. Its dead. The only difference is a player doing it with a big attack for the player experience and enjoyment. You can dislike that but that doesn't mean your way is the only way.

[glass granite]

Same

[cursive thorn]

Yeah, this is why I didnt think they were saying it was wrong, I missed that part.

[marble lion]

as long as you dont insult people for it, its not evil to think your way is generally better

[near meteor]

I go to my spells section and cast it fro, their

[glass granite]

What’s your class?

[marble lion]

i think this whole "there is no right and wrong" is assuming thats its bad to be wrong sometimes

[near meteor]

Owlin druid

[halcyon forum]

I think its funny you say that because fudging only really works if you lie to your players about it imo

[glass granite]

Then you can cast it multiple times per long rest

[marble lion]

its okay to find things right and doing things you think are better. just dont insult others over it and maybe dont go on about it all day

[knotty basin]

And lying is wrong, therefore fudging is bad

[marble lion]

i disagree though. i think fudging is fine but disagreeing is fine

[near meteor]

How do u make that so on dnd beyond
Cause so far I only get to do it once

[marble lion]

im fine with lying

just not to hurt people. thats when lying is bad

[glass granite]

That’s…odd
Did you expend your other spell slots beforehand?

[knotty basin]

Most people don’t like being lied to, though, regardless of the reason

[fickle heart]

I think it's totally fine to find something wrong, but I think the important bit is the self-awareness to recognize it's an opinion based on one's personal values and that it doesn't necessarily hold any validity when applied to others values.

[nova trellis]

Also, I feel theres a bit of hypocrisy when being miffed at slight hp adjustment of hp and not being miffed at withholding/using adds when thats a even bigger mechanic retroactive change.

[marble lion]

thats why you dont let them find out poker

[halcyon forum]

my stance is always: I fudge a bit for newbies at low levels, otherwise, I am honest with my rolls and monsters

[near meteor]

HOW TF IS NO IDEA NOT ENGLISH TF

[cursive thorn]

wdym witholding/using adds?

[crimson gulch]

Yep, I have met players that haven't enjoyed my games and I don't want them to play if they aren't going to have a good time. I'm running 9 campaigns it's my full time job and my players are locked in and love my games and pay me very well to run the games the way I do.

[glass granite]

lol
Also for future reference chill on the full caps

[near meteor]

No idea

[halcyon forum]

they mean like adding more minions than planned to a combat on a second wave for example

[woven flint]

No-Eye-Deer

[knotty basin]

Oh, I hate that too

[knotty basin]

As opposed to the one-eyed-deer

[nova trellis]

Folks mentioned adding extra adds in a fight to extend an encounter or holding them when the encounter doesn't need them. If the argument is about encounter integrity then wouldnt that be also be a no no?

[keen cargo]

Yo

[fickle heart]

Aye, and I wouldn't say to change your games, but I think it's worth the consideration that those who don't enjoy your games may not enjoy them for entirely valid reasons, as I assume you recognize when someone lets you know that your styles don't match.

[woven flint]

It was me, Tokii.
I was that one-eyed-deer the whole time!
Not a silly Cleric Cat...!

[molten pumice]

Thinking your way is better can be fine if you say "well here's how I personally like to do stuff" but once you're pointing at how someone else likes to do stuff and saying "you're doing it bad and wrong" then you're not really contributing anything meaningful because if everyone at my table enjoys critting on a 15 then in my game we have fun critting on 15 and that's how we play. What everyone else does in their game is irrelevant to our enjoyment

[fickle heart]

Unfortunately, the logical extension of saying there's a truly right and wrong way of doing stuff is that one must inherently believe there are more or less valid ways to engage, which is totally fine for some things in life, but not necessarily fine for others.

[knotty basin]

I think there is a generally right way to do it

[glass granite]

I…think it’s fine for them to express that they think a way of doing things is wrong.

[crimson gulch]

Yeah I get lots of bad matched players because there's so much hype for My games, no less than half a dozen folks have told me to run pathfinder instead and I'm like. No

[knotty basin]

And you have to be very careful to do it another way

[glass granite]

This is a discussion channel, people are free to express their opinions.

[nova trellis]

If you wanna have that stance of not changing anything retroactively. All pure, no fudge. Fine, but then extend that to everything and not pick and choice. Especially when you're preaching about how a dm style is the only right way.

[near meteor]

So ,y cure wounds appears for 1st level but every other level it isn't their

[fickle heart]

Based on values, absolutely. But it's extremely difficult to try to prove something is right or wrong without involving values.

[glass granite]

Yes, that’s because it’s a first level spell

[crimson gulch]

And there's no hard feeling when there's a bad match and a player moves on, that opens up the seat for the next player that will lock in

[knotty basin]

Agreed

[near meteor]

Y is speaking with animals in every level then (1 to 5)

[crimson gulch]

I put the deck of many things in every campaign, most dms will never touch that either

[high vine]

I have an enemy npc a flame thrower, do you guys think it should do 2d6 or 3d6 fire damage? 🤔

[knotty basin]

This is my stance. Don’t change things on the fly unless it’s the result of a PCs action

[woven flint]

3d6

[minor lake]

how high level are the pcs?

[knotty basin]

Our DM gave us one at level 1

[fickle heart]

A very basic example I think of is the values around backstories. To someone who puts no value on backstory, someone who puts value on backstory is wasting their time, and vice versa.

[minor lake]

3d6 sounds more fun lol

[glass granite]

That’s a very good question that I don’t have an answer to

[high vine]

They'll be level 2-3

[halcyon forum]

what if you messed up the encounter balance? mistakes happen

[minor lake]

3d6 could probably 1 shot a level 2

[knotty basin]

Too bad, learn and do better next time

[high vine]

It is a rechargeable weapon to give them SOME break

[halcyon forum]

but why punish players for your mistakes?

[crimson gulch]

It's just never been as important as the for story that we'll all tell collaboratively in game

[high vine]

I'll do 2d6 if they're level 2 and 3d6 when they're level 3

[crimson gulch]

In my experience

[knotty basin]

So you can be honest with them

[high vine]

It's a reoccurring villain potentially so it'll work 😎

[minor lake]

good plan
honestly there's something to be said for the drama of the 3d6 regardless especially if it has a cooldown

[fickle heart]

Which is totally fair. In my preferred style, backstories drive the game, and are massively important for how they tether the PCs to the world.

[knotty basin]

I’d say 2d6 for your big bad with a cooldown at level 2 is too low

I’d go for 4d6, honestly

[high vine]

It's just a big bad minion

The big bad is a blue dragon wyrmling and the minion is a kobold with a flamethrower

[crimson gulch]

And that's fine if that works for you, I'm not going to knock that style.

I don't expect My players to write the campaign for me, just play in it after i have prepared it.

That method can work well though if done right for sure

[high vine]

Thanks! I've been doing simulation battles to fine tune the encounters and the minion keeps only doing 3-6 damage with their weapon so I thought maybe a little juice would work! Plus I made it work like burning hands so a dex save can half the damage

[fickle heart]

With everything said, I think that defining varying degrees of fudging is something the community would benefit from, but that would be its own exercise.

[halcyon forum]

You can be honest without ruining the game for everyone else, and sometimes a small lie is better than to ruin it as well

[knotty basin]

I don’t agree

[crimson gulch]

You are on to something there, for the sake of discussion

[minor lake]

oh yeah in that case 3d6 is probably fine

[knotty basin]

As a player if I knew the DM was fudging anything combat-related, I’m out

[high vine]

Yeah basically makes it a burning hands gun!

[fickle heart]

I'm painfully aware of how discussions on subject such as fudging can devolve into "well, I don't like fudging because my DM [describes what people would consider the worst kind of fudging]" when in reality there's a lot of nuance to be had.

[halcyon forum]

If my DM realizes mid combat their monsters is way too much for us even with average luck and then does some minor stuff to soften the encounter a bit because that wasn't the intention, then I would praise that if I knew. Its strange to me that you insist on not fixing mistakes.

[nova trellis]

You really mean everything. No changing of loot in a dungeon, changing of encounters slightly later for pacing. Have you ever not removed/added a goblin in.a encounter? Genuine question, not trying to do a gotcha.

[knotty basin]

Yes, I would dislike all of those things

[fickle heart]

One situation would be whether people limit fudging only to rolls done in combat, or whether people view fudging as a more broad representation of the DM tweaking aspects of the game.

Joel kinda beat me to it tho

[tame estuary]

hmm fudge

[fickle heart]

One could easily consider the concept of "default kills" in the optimization space as fudging, for example.

[knotty basin]

What’s a default kill?

[remote wadi]

This entire combat session, i only had one damage dice that got above average damage

[crimson gulch]

Fudging hp, ac, saving throw rolls, to hit bonus and the dc of skill checks should not be done in my opinion

[fickle heart]

The concept of the players deterministically winning a combat in a way such that it can be largely abstracted and not played out as a true combat beause the results can be predicted to a degree of certainty.

[coarse ravine]

Are you looking at a feat? Or under spells

You should have access to your spelllist

[fickle heart]

Out of curiosity, how would you define fudging? It seems that Poker would consider your tweaking of encounters as fudging, for context/example.

[coarse ravine]

I like when dms roll openly i agree

[remote wadi]

A 1, 2 3s, and a 4 for a d8, 3 for a d6, and then 2 2s on a d4

[near meteor]

I'll send u a pic in dms it's easier for me

[nova trellis]

Let me reword the goblin part of the question. Have you ever had goblins fight to the last goblin or had that last goblin run away. Or decided to not have that goblin throw a vial and instead hit with sword. Have all goblin encounters been ran optimally? Not playing a goblin to full potential could be considered fudging.

[tame estuary]

looks like you aren't grinning and bearing and actually have a problem with the group

[indigo cedar]

Fudgiing the dice or an encounter is just another tool in the GM toolbox, now how its used should really depend on the style of game. If the premise of the game is a game that is deadly and gritty where actions have consequences fudging the dice takes away the entire premise as the dice being rolled suddenly are a lot less impactful. If the campaign is more focused on building a narrative story, fudging dices can be a very powerful tool if used properly

[coarse ravine]

Yes goblins and kobolds ya gotta have environmental hazards etc

Their traps and trickiness is the most fun part.

[coarse ravine]

Id say a default kill is like throwing a singular cr 5 or two cr 5s at tier 3-4 play

[knotty basin]

I play the monsters as how I believe they would behave

It’s less fun if the goblins just run up and stab the players every time

And also, with a good arena, not very effective

It’s not fudging to give the monsters interesting behaviour

[crimson gulch]

Changing ac, to hit bonus hp, saving through bonus or any other stat on the monster stat block after you roll for initiative.

[fickle heart]

Would you extend that to monsters you've tweaked yourself or just static statblocks? I think your style of only using official materials may be one of the causes of disconnect, possibly.

[crimson gulch]

Poker seems to Agree with what I'm saying about things so I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to

[crimson gulch]

I make custom monsters, and I wite down those numbers before combat

[knotty basin]

I would also extend fudging to include adding more monsters after the all the ones you initially planned for have died

Removing monsters before they die would depend on context

[crimson gulch]

Sometimes a customization I make is just owlbear-but undead and immune to poison, and I use all the other numbers from the manual

For example

[fickle heart]

Poker mentioned that they would dislike "changing of loot in a dungeon", "changing of encounters slightly later for pacing", and "remov[al]/add[ition] of a goblin in an encounter" based on Joel's question [here](#dnd-discussion message), so they seemingly have a broader definition.

Whether or not they truly consider that fudging is something I'll let them speak on, but they did say they'd dislike those things.

[crimson gulch]

I will prepare the loot in a dungeon in advance if i am creating it, or use what's written in a campaign book if I'm running it.

And encounters my encounters I prepare in advance for 90% of them to be hard via the 2024 exp budget, so I never skimp on challenge.

[fossil hollow]

That do be the case

[crimson gulch]

If players one round an encounter, there is another ready to go as I usually have 9 to 12 prepared to run on any given session and will do 3 to 4 in a 3 hour session of heavy combat

[elfin narwhal]

Do DND characters get to transform for a turn?

[fossil hollow]

what?

[hushed mason]

Like a transformer?

[elfin narwhal]

No, just like a stronger form for a single turn

[empty thicket]

polymorph, transform in beasts, animals, etc.

[stuck shuttle]

There’s many ways to “transform” depending on what exactly you want

[knotty basin]

Some do

[empty thicket]

or if you want to call it, rage could apply on "stronger for a signle turn"

[stuck shuttle]

Though most transformations last for a lot longer than a turn

[fossil hollow]

If a feature lets them transform, they do yes

[stuck shuttle]

You could always flavor an ability as “going all out for a turn”

[soft garnet]

Changeling?polymorph? Wildshape? Or just emotionally?

[knotty basin]

If you’re using rage for a single turn, something is wrong

[fickle heart]

I gotta admit I get bored of that heavy of combat, as I think videogames (multiplayer or not) just scratch that itch better for me 😅

[hushed mason]

It's not like an automatic kind of thing. Depending on the species or class involved, they may have the ability to 'transform' in some matter.

[elfin narwhal]

My character is a cute deer girl who can transform into a much larger, scarier deer monster. But I didn't want her to be overpowered, so I wanted it to be short-lived

[empty thicket]

Could apply said, and something might be good too, you and your team managed to get rid of the problem fast

[hushed mason]

blinks.

[knotty basin]

That’s not how D&D works

[fossil hollow]

I would suggest looking at the official classes and spells and see what you can reflavor to be like that. Wildshape and Rage can easily be reflavored as that

[elfin narwhal]

Sorry .. I'm still really new....

[fickle heart]

I'm a big big fan of exploration, for context, even if I love me some dungeoncrawls (as I consider the crawling part of dungeoncrawls to be exploration.)

[knotty basin]

Personally I’d go with a path of the giant barbarian satyr

[fossil hollow]

that does check off a lot of boxes

[crimson gulch]

Exploring in dungeons is absolutely exploration

[fossil hollow]

cant wait for the Waterdeep Menaces to head to the Mad Mage

[crimson gulch]

I love running dungeons, seeing how players solve deadly challenges is intense

[elfin narwhal]

What does Rage consist of? I think that might fit

[crimson gulch]

My mad made campaign last night went so hard

[fossil hollow]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/character-classes#Barbarian

[fickle heart]

r u gonna use dungeon turns?

[knotty basin]

(Also keep in mind you are free to describe your character as you like- but that doesn’t change the mechanics of the game)

[fossil hollow]

Ok, i remember hearing about this before, but dont remember it

[elfin narwhal]

Is there any way that I could have it simply be an aesthetic thing rather than a gameplay change?

[fossil hollow]

thats what reflavoring is yes

[knotty basin]

Yes, we call that reflavoring in D&D

[elfin narwhal]

Like her just transforming doesn't do anything for stats or anything like that, she can just do this

Or maybe it's part of her character and she wants to get it solved? Its something she can't control

[fossil hollow]

Again, thats called reflavoring

[glossy swan]

Hey new to serve worry to interupt, is there a dungeon master looking for a newbie to join there guild?

[turbid vessel]

Think of it like a coloring book. You're free to color inside the lines, and thats totally fun too! But nothing stops you from doing what you want if your party and DM is cool with it

[fossil hollow]

#find-a-game

[elfin narwhal]

I'm really sorry if I'm being annoying I just dunno what I'm doing

[glossy swan]

#find-a-game

[fossil hollow]

highly suggest checking out #learn-to-play and #dnd-newcomers

[crimson gulch]

Man I'm sad I'm off for 2 weeks at the shop, but at least I'm only down a few online games with the holidays

[knotty basin]

You’re fine. Have you read the basic rules yet?

[elfin narwhal]

No, I'm sorry

[fossil hollow]

youre supposed to go there to look for a game...

[idle oar]

Like actually click that link to be taken to the #find-a-game channel to read up on how to use our Looking For Game channels

[fickle heart]

They're basically ways of making dungeons dynamic by breaking up what the PCs are doing into discrete steps that the DM can react to, as opposed to trying to juggle everything happening at the same time. They're also often used to track time and monster roaming.

[coarse ravine]

Druids. Casters with polymorph or other higher casters. Can always flavor "form of dread" as transforming and other abilities

[fossil hollow]

mind if you got a link or full explanation? 👀

[fickle heart]

Can't remember where they originated, but dungeon turns are definitely not new, to my knowledge.

[coarse ravine]

Well dont think overpowered as a deer lol. However there is a spell called enlarge reduce

[elfin narwhal]

Is there anywhere I can post the drawings I made of her?

[hushed mason]

#dnd-arts-and-crafts , maybe?

[idle oar]

Check the #channel-guide (and yes we have a #dnd-arts-and-crafts channel for sharing your D&D arts and crafts)

[fickle heart]

Here's two different links I found, but if you ping Joji over in DoMT and ask about links for dungeon turns, I'm sure he'll be able to get you the best one, because iirc OSR uses dungeon turns as a core part of the game.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuJNIVcvHZ4
Blog: https://theangrygm.com/making-things-complicated/

TL;DR: Dungeon turns make stuff happen in the dungeon by breaking up stuff into discrete time pools.

[elfin narwhal]

Okay I posted her

[fossil hollow]

AHA! DoMT to the rescue!

[limber trail]

Your art looks like it'd be perfect for a barbarian with the path of the beast subclass

[glossy swan]

I added a form looking for DM do I just wait for someone to DM me then?

[elfin narwhal]

Thank you haha! Even the normal form?

[coarse ravine]

Id also go look at "looking for players"

[hushed mason]

You can also look through the postings of DMs that are #looking-for-players

[coarse ravine]

As those are dms needing players.

[glossy swan]

Okay thank you

[hushed mason]

I found two people that way that I'm going to try out in our group tomorrow!

[limber trail]

Well normal form could be your character normally, and then the scarier, cryptid-like form could be your barbarian rage

[elfin narwhal]

I wish I could have minis of her two forms...

[tame forge]

Cryptid form is cool.

That is a Nathiira approved concept.

[tame forge]

They will either DM you or reply to the post itself.

[glossy swan]

Thank you, Preciate the kindness and help from everyone

[tawdry sentinel]

I really like the Angry gms tension pool alongside dungeon turns.

Picking a lock. Takes time, makes it more likely something picks up your scent and starts closing in. Add a d6 to a pool.

Kick a door down, fast and loud. If something is already nearby, it'll now know where you are. Roll the pool, if it's a 1, random encounter.

So the longer you spend moving through the dungeon, the more likely your loud actions are to lead to a scrap.

[fickle heart]

D&D has definitely shifted away from dungeonplay over time, whereas legacy editions definitely had it be a huge part of the game, so it makes sense that the past can help here.

[stable solar]

When was the last time someone used an 11 foot pole lol

[fossil hollow]

ive seen mage hand fill in the slot of 11 foot pole

[stable solar]

True its much more versatile

[umbral girder]

To be fair, how many mage hands have you actually seen in person? /jk

[glass granite]

1 single one

[crimson gulch]

I disagree, dungeons are still the highlight of my games

[glass granite]

I feel like as a whole most games have moved away from it tho

[limber trail]

It's a thing where, I've seen it go from, every game does this to more of a, some games run it based on taste. I've played a few games where dungeon crawls are done and loved, but all the same, I've played with both DMs and Players who dislike dungeon crawls.

[fickle heart]

Dungeons and dungeonplay are quite different, as dungeonplay is basically aspects of the rules that are specifically focused on highlighting the rules of play working more exclusively in dungeons.

[limber trail]

I think every mage hand I've ever seen used has been from AT Rogues so..... none technically

[meager fractal]

I see

[umbral girder]

Yeah I play nearly entirely dungeons at my games and the ones I’ve joined

Roleplay is usually the set up to the next dungeon

[fickle heart]

It's not a big secret that the 5e rules are significantly less equipped for dungeonplay than earlier editions, tbh.

Though actual dungeonplay is often either really crunchy or heavily skill-based.

[quaint mulch]

Does anyone know alternate names or spellings for Kobolds

[fossil hollow]

Cobolds

[glass granite]

Korbodes
Idk

[eager marsh]

If you want to get technically. Ghost

[fossil hollow]

... explain

[eager marsh]

German root folklore as household spirits. anything from making noises and pranks like a poltergeist to being helpful in the kitchen and can even be bribed with food items

[fossil hollow]

... ok, checks out

[umbral girder]

Kol /jk

[glass granite]

I giveth the kobold cheese. We friends now.

[hushed mason]

tiny-dragon-people

[quaint mulch]

I'm wondering this for a project with both canine and reptilian kobolds

And I want to have a way to differentiate the two by name

[fossil hollow]

I like cheese

[eager marsh]

it's like how 'Goblin' is supposed to be a lot more Fey coded in their own root folklore than most fantasy settings portray them. iirc pathfinder has leaned into goblins beig fey

[fossil hollow]

Dracbolds and Dogbolds

[quaint mulch]

I have cheese allergy 😔

[glass granite]

I pity thee

[quaint mulch]

As in I really just don't like the taste of cheese

[hushed mason]

bought $60 worth of cheese today.

[quaint mulch]

I am able to consume milk products but cheese just gives me the ick

[umbral girder]

Kobold and Koitalicized

[quaint mulch]

Ehhh

[eager marsh]

you forgot Kob__underlined__

[quaint mulch]

I still want one of them to be called Kobold

[umbral girder]

So like a Goblin and Hobgoblin situation?

[valid geyser]

justice for kobstrikethrough, automod deletes it

[umbral girder]

How they are both a type of Goblin.

[quaint mulch]

Sort of

[still plover]

Kobold Gothic Kopperplate?

[eager marsh]

Yea the poor Kobstrikethrough really does get the short end of the stick sometimes

[hushed mason]

KOBUPPERCASE? That actually sounds good...

[umbral girder]

KoFilled Accent Red 6

[quaint mulch]

[fossil hollow]

just how many of you are dads

[hushed mason]

Not I....

[glass granite]

Kobig?

-# Kosmol?

[rigid crypt]

so my friend really doesnt want me to steal from him
so i have overpowered speed but he has literally god
so how do i rob him

[fossil hollow]

correction, how many of you are aparent

[fossil hollow]

dont?

[glass granite]

Jokes on you, I’ve made that joke before!

[umbral girder]

How many are apparent? No clue

[rigid crypt]

(i will not stop the robbery)

[fossil hollow]

... have fun ig

[rigid crypt]

my character robs everyone and likes mind challenges

[eager marsh]

Yea you're on your own mate

[glass granite]

Don’t rob him, have him steal something he can’t get rid of and is just a hindrance to him

[rigid crypt]

oh nice
i tried stealing a silver coin from him and ended up in a bag of holding and getting punched

[glass granite]

A cursed rock that constantly shouts dad jokes into your head, for example

[umbral girder]

Oh yeah I got to try out Vancian spellcasting! Not as complicated as I thought

[hushed mason]

I have a 12-yr-old child.

[rigid crypt]

he has a "Lmao Get Trolled"

[glass granite]

Also, poor execution, as apparent doesn’t make a lot of sense here. A better way would’ve been “a lot of you, a-parent-ly.”

[fossil hollow]

no

[hushed mason]

It looks like I'm the only one willing to admit it.

[eager marsh]

I'm not a dad, just a dad friend

[glass granite]

Hi not a dad, I’m Nugget

[eager marsh]

perfect, I was feeling hungry

[fossil hollow]

oh god, back to death with you Kokusho

-# Junji is so much better

[eager marsh]

perish heathen

[fossil hollow]

The ability to get back a creature from graveyard is much better than 5 hp loss

[glass granite]

For the record, chicken nugget and Nugget the chicken are not me and also different beings.
There’s me (Nugget), then Chicken Nugget (cousin), then Nugget The Chicken (who belongs to LadyisLay).

[eager marsh]

its 5 life bleed. And you use it in multi-player games

[glass granite]

I’m not edible, apologies

[eager marsh]

factually incorrect

[glass granite]

Hmmm. Spectacular point

[hushed mason]

Ooo, Nugget, we're getting pigs!

[eager marsh]

gonna slow cook this nugget

[fossil hollow]

Junji gets discard two and still bleeds 2

[glass granite]

When I said I was cooked a few sessions ago when I was getting jumped by a zombie stag, this was not what I meant

[scenic zinc]

Most societies frown upon cannibalism

[fossil hollow]

Theyre a Nugget

[eager marsh]

Come back when you get banned in Commander as the commander

[scenic zinc]

Doesn't mean they're not a human nugget.

[fossil hollow]

doesnt mean theyre one either

[scenic zinc]

@glass granite

We need a ruling. Are you a human nugget?

[glass granite]

No, who’s A Human Nugget? My name is Nugget.

[limber trail]

What kind of nugget

Perhaps a gnomish nugget?

[glass granite]

Here? A DnD Nugget

[scenic zinc]

An elven nugget?

Or is it Elvish?

[glass granite]

Good question

I’d say elven

[eager marsh]

still delicious

[minor cargo]

Thanks for the conversation @crimson gulch @rough basalt @jade hatch @fickle heart @cursive thorn @knotty basin and others (sorry if I missed you!). No response needed. Just a blip in your history!

If the topic comes up again, I'm happy to be pinged to keep discussing our styles!

[crimson gulch]

You are very welcome.

The discussion got me prompted to add some more detail to the book I'm writing

[limber trail]

Oh I missed this, and maybe someone has covered it, I've had some evolving thoughts on HP as I do more DMing. I do not enjoy adding tons of HP to encounters prematurely where I can, it feels awkward. What I do like to do in its place, is I calculate three hitpoint totals for enemies: Their Max HP (they roll 8s on all their hit dice), Their Average HP, and their Min HP (they roll 1s on all their hit dice). Then I'll pick one of the three to be their main HP total. For a big miniboss in an encounter I might give them their max HP total, for a minion they might have their min HP. If a fight is definitely won and it's just cleaning up the trash, maybe all the remaining enemies will be kicked back down to their min HP.

[coarse ravine]

I can get behind that... player crits for like 50+ damage and leaves your monster around 3 hp.... Just let em die sometimes would make it more theatrical.

[rugged hawk]

Well, this takes all the fun out of it. Y warlocks only get up to spell level 5?

[eager marsh]

Keep reading the class

[limber trail]

For example, I just ran a fight in a dwarvern forge. The big Tannurak demon who was commanding the enemies got his max HP, as a big meaty target to hurt the barbarian and paladin. Meanwhile the bulezaus had their normal HP, and the old dilapidated clockwork stone defenders that would periodically wake up were rusty and worn, so they had their min HP. Then, once it became clear the fight was won and we were getting late in our session time, I kicked the last few bulezaus back down to min HP to keep things moving.

[crimson gulch]

When I prepare encounters I often give the monsters their max hit dice value. This is part of me designing encounters, not something that happens after initiative is rolled

[rugged hawk]

I know about the Mystic Arcanums, I just don't like I can't take both Steal Immortality and True Polymorph

[eager marsh]

Steal immortality sounds 3rd party anyways

[crimson gulch]

Yeah thats not an official spell

[minor cargo]

(Why does Discord insist on making my 🤝 yellow? Why can't I have my melaninated mano moments???)

[timid anvil]

I think you can blame the Simpsons

[rugged hawk]

Grim Hollow. On marketplace, but partnered.

[crimson gulch]

D'oh

[rugged hawk]

Frankly, I accept anything WotC puts in the Marketplace as 'official enough'

[remote wadi]

Is it normal to feel discouraged because trying to think and play smart never matters against playing simply and recklessly?

[eager marsh]

partnered doesnt count as official at all.

[raw ocean]

Don’t feel discouraged, one time I made a 15 step plan and the DM told me that they had permanent future sight

Some DM’s encourage creativity more than others

[limber trail]

It's different types of games. I do find that in games where GMs are less punishing, reckless plays are less often punished. You might enjoy playing with a GM who is a bit tougher, where those smart plays are rewarded and reckless moves are punished.

[minor cargo]

I think if Person A and Person B both spend X and Y energy on a task, and X > Y, but the result is the same, it's reasonable for Person A to be frustrated.

I don't know if that's helpful. 😅

[rugged hawk]

I'm aware of this. That said, if WotC wants to go to the trouble of integrating and selling 'third party' content in DNDB, I'm more than happy to allow it. I'm not a fan of flatout HOMEBREW, but anything in the Marketplace I consider fair game.

[eager marsh]

third party is legally homebrew by all definitions. Beyond doesnt even separate homebrew from official content by default either

[crimson gulch]

Yeah youn can separate it out with the checkboxes

[rugged hawk]

Well, maybe we wouldn't need to go to partnered content if WotC would just give us these options to begin with

[rocky shoal]

Anyone else have trouble looking for a game. I look at the posted listings but by the time I see them they already have 2x the requests to join then what they asking.

[remote wadi]

Example A: merchant who jacks up the prices because of the lack of competition

Team fails to haggle, but merchant hasn't met me.
Use my Soldier Background to try and get a military discount of sorts? Nope, background means jack crap in this world
Try to gather and sell loot we got to get more gold to work with? Nope, selling them would be a fifth of the total value
Try to show a will to the Death House, showing we went in there and dealt with a lot of crap and will again if prices aren't reasonable? Nope, he doesn't give a care and threatens me to buy or get thrown out
Used up every last ounce of my starting gold just to get supplies for the team

[crimson gulch]

Curse of strahd be like that

[eager marsh]

5e is terrified of teh concept of splat books after 3.5 so all the supplemental books have been deliberately staggered and even then they still arent fully and thoroughly playtesting what releases

[crimson gulch]

The lack of bloat in 5e is a feature

[hot reef]

There’s a lot of third party content that may not be up to standards with the rest of 5e. Too much content bloats the game

[eager marsh]

3.5 infamously released SO many books simultaneously and none were balanced against each other. They're the root cause of why AL was plagued by the +1 rule for so long

[remote wadi]

It doesn't excuse how much my creativity feels crushed. How am I supposed to care at all about what I do if none of it matters at the end of the day?

[rugged hawk]

That's not a feature, that's corporate greed at its finest. Here's less content at higher prices.

[eager marsh]

you only need a book once for a whole play group and higher prices is just inflation at work really

[knotty pasture]

Play Ranger

[limber trail]

This sounds more than anything like a conversation to have with your DM about it

[remote wadi]

Wanted to talk about it here before I do

[limber trail]

Part of curse of strahd and the setting of Barovia/Ravenloft is that's it's a grim, dark setting. Part of that might just be that the GM doesn't want to be forgiving and wants things like supplies and resources to be hard won and expensive

[rugged hawk]

Besides, even if you do kill Strahd, well....

[fickle heart]

From experience, you largely just need to know where to look. Even in homebrew communities, third party stuff isn't always seen as well-made.

[crimson gulch]

How much were 3 e books?

[eager marsh]

you get out of Barovia and thats what matters. him not staying dead is his punishment

[minor cargo]

I’m pretty sure you don’t mean it this way, but I think it’s good to have less content as long as the text is dense.

That is, I’m okay with less pages - and even paying a lot for it - so long as there’s a lot of “concept” for the “space” it takes up.

(Over the years, I’ve talked a lot about “conceptual density” in TTRPGs.)

[crimson gulch]

That's on you, if you don't like the game don't continue, find a new table

[loud tendon]

it's good to have ideas, but they aren't all guaranteed to work. Solider background for example, might hold more sway at a barracks or official armory, a regular merchant may not give a hoot.
If loot is set at a merchant seller's market price (ex: inflated costs) then it would stand to reason they'd buy at a lower rate as well.. which sucks as a person trying to offload gear pr haggle, but would at least be consistent with that merchants MO.

Is the DM allowing any roles for persuasion at all? if they aren't allowing you to roll for any ideas at all, that might be something to discuss. But sometimes PCs can't be swayed..

[eager marsh]

Approximately $30-40 per book for 3e books, which were all priced roughly 25 years ago

[crimson gulch]

Ah so adjusted for inflation the books are cheaper now

[remote wadi]

Anyways, example B was our Fighter deciding to smash the lock to a basement and let a vampire loose on the roof by just going "Door's open, you can leave now"

Shoot him down, then getting others to restrain him? Nope, he just regenerated all the hits
Shoot him at the limbs to specifically make it hard for him to crawl around and lose his grip? Nope, it doesn't make it easier for him to fall. Oh, and I had to make those attack rolls with disadvantage, by the way

I had to use up Favored Foe AND Ensnaring Strike just to get him down (he broke out instantly on the next turn) as I had to remind our Paladin and Fighter that they can literally just grapple him and drag him back to the basement

[eager marsh]

the playershandbook 2 my beloved was $35 specifically

[crimson gulch]

And fewer of them are coming out, that's the opposite of greed to me

[rustic vine]

um hi everybody

[meager fractal]

Do you still hear the falcon's cry?

[crimson gulch]

Not gonna lie, the way your dm is running it as a huge challenge sounds awesome to me

To many folks pull punches

[rugged hawk]

Yeah, no, I was largely being existential with that one. I get the concept you're speaking of. Actually, the latest book I got (Forgotten Realms: Heroes of Faerûn) gave me exactly the kind of feeling you're describing.

The whole Factions of the Realms section was SUPER insightful and useful

[rustic vine]

im kind of new and never played D&D before but um im a fan of mha and if anyone is looking for players do you think i can posably and if its ok with you can i be deku i found a post someone made on the offical D&D page thing if not then il try to make my own charecter but im not very imagative but il try but again its nive to meet you all

[eager marsh]

try #homebrew

[remote wadi]

I'm really questioning how you view this as awesome. So far, all of my attempts at trying to think outside the box and be creative never worked out at all
The fact that I haven't been able to get any positive effect from trying to think my way through things, and worse had to have penalties for things that would not have even mattered, is not enjoyable

I would genuinely have to hear in what world that would be fun for me to have it be considered remotely positive

[fickle heart]

There's a lot of discourse to have on this type of thing, but one of the things that feels unsatisfying but can be necessary is "sometimes you just have to give up on something".

[fossil hollow]

gug

[fickle heart]

It's possible to get yourself into a situation you aren't equipped to handle and that you have to kinda go "whoa, we should probably get out of here."

[remote wadi]

What is the point of a challenge without a fitting reward? Was there something I missed about "Oh, you wanted to shoot his limbs specifically to get him down without causing too much trouble? Well, too bad, that does nothing towards your goal. Oh, and make your roll with disadvantage, by the way. Smaller target."

[echo agate]

In terms of DnD beyond, why does Force ballista not go under bonus actions

in the 2024 artillerist They're broadcasted with the normal buttons and automatic rolls for damage, but when i tried making a character for 2014 Only flamethrower is shown there and not

[eager marsh]

Because Beyond is spaghetti code

[echo agate]

i see i see, just wanted to confirm it wasn't something that i completely missed between going from 2024 to 2014

[fickle heart]

The part that can be difficult to come to terms with is that not every challenge necessarily resolves in a way that is satisfying, especially when the challenge was more self-imposed.

[eager marsh]

anything that looks even slightly off is because Beyond is just garbage coding

[remote wadi]

This was thrust upon me, though. I didn't go around picking fights I couldn't finish, I was trying to find a way to get rations for the team because I was the main and close to only person who actually brought any beforehand. And my options were
A. Use up the remainder of my gold just so the party and DM wouldn't bat an eyelid about my sacrifice and attempts to haggle
B. Tell my team "Tough luck" and let them choose between no long rest benefits or taking them with a level of exhaustion

That's the thing. Not a single challenge so far was talked over with the party or could be solved easier with clever thinking

[fickle heart]

I'm more focusing on the vampire aspect for now, but for that portion, I think it's entirely valid to just say "Hey, I tried, and I'm not necessarily willing to blow all of my gold for this."

[remote wadi]

A little too late now, unfortunately

Besides, out of character and in, I tend to lean towards altruism. Or AT LEAST, quid pro quo

[fickle heart]

As it sometimes is. Social dynamics-wise, I don't necessarily think the DM is to blame, especially if the rest of the PCs had nothing they could contribute to resolving their own issues.

I don't know your group, but I'm always a bit of a fan of intra-party conflict when the group is mature.

[remote wadi]

They did likely have spme of their own starting gold leftover, but I did an entire thing of talking it out with the party on what things I would take from the party inventory and for what purpose

Just to have it mean nothing because none of the plans I had mattered in the end. I wanted to play this session to feel like I have control over at least something, not be given a reminder of just how little I or what I do matters

[fickle heart]

Do you think it's a tonal clash with the setting/game or a style clash with the DM/group?

[remote wadi]

I wouldn't be able to tell you

[daring pecan]

Low-key sad AF today

[wet laurel]

Guys, if me and my players are all new to dnd, can I ignore the numbers and we just roll the dice for a bit because I haven't tackled the math part of dnd yet

[daring pecan]

No

[wet laurel]

aw man..

[remote wadi]

Bard only appeared for a session or 2, but ruined what little of a leg up we had by backtalking to Strahd himself and getting knocked out

[stable solar]

Some dnd (ish) sessions are mostly roleplay with minimal dice (if any)

[loud tendon]

are you the DM? because you can choose to do things differently.. but ignoring the numbers won't help you learn them faster. It's sort of the integral part of the game

[remote wadi]

And the rest of my party were not the brightest crayons in the box. I felt like a babysitter who also gets kicked in the head too many times by Lady Luck

[wet laurel]

I'm still a bit new sadly , I'll try to learn it as the story progresses, since we still have the entirety of christmas break, and I'm still writing the few acts of the story. we're currently in act 4 BUT I made 8 so I can tackle the math part when we don't have sessions (Yes, I'm the DM)

[loud tendon]

if you are unhappy, you should talk to your DM about expectations for the game and how you currently feel. But it can be a bit unhelpful to just blame the other characters/players for the things they tried not working. Or by calling your other group members essentially "dumber than you".. that really isn't nice and not conducive to building trust and fun in a group

[rugged hawk]

Sounds like you could've made an argument that you need a +1 Luck bonus per player you're babysitting.

[wet laurel]

How big is a party to become a guild.. asking for a friend (I'm babysitting 13 players rn)

[crimson gulch]

That's not really like an official thing, I have over 50 players spread over 9 campaigns and they are all just parties

[wet laurel]

Yeah, They're all in just one campaign, at first it was a little overwhelming but I'm starting to get the hang of it

[crimson gulch]

I try to cap games at 6

[wet laurel]

Will do next time

[crimson gulch]

I think 4 is my favirote party size

[wet laurel]

Also, would it be wise to make their final boss, Hastur, the wise aka the king in yellow...

[crimson gulch]

Dunno who that is

[rough basalt]

Most players I'll do is 5

I can probably do 6 but I'd rather 5

[remote wadi]

I don't like insulting the party either, but there were just too many times people did not think things through. In between packing rations at all for anyone aside from me (Fighter only did it after I advised him to when left with starting gold)

Fighter opens up a door to the basement and makes us waste over 30 minutes on a fight because he let the vampire walk out of the basement

Fighter and Paladin keep forgetting that 30+ feet away means that javelins will be at disadvantage and you wouldn't be able to grow bigger and grab him off the roof

Wizard immediately uses a second level spell slot, even when being in danger of a grapple (which he never attempts to break out of or disengages)

And I also left some messages earlier about why I'm also ticked off from this (TLDR: trying to be creative and think outside the box only resulted in me essentially getting mocked and/or penalized)

[wet laurel]

It's pretty interesting, he's like an omnipotent being. whoever looks at him immediately gets their mind flooded with infinite knowledge of the future, past, and present. that makes the person go insane instantly

[rough basalt]

Is this a CoS game?

[remote wadi]

Yes, but that doesn't feel like a good reason for things to happen the way they did

[rough basalt]

Oh I was just asking cause I think I know what encounter you're talking about and yeah it's bad if the party doesn't know what their doing

CoS has a good amount of encounters that can kill parties who don't know what their doing

[remote wadi]

What got me ticked off about it was because you would think that a person who wanted to end this fight without using up limited resources would be rewarded for thinking outside the box

[meager fractal]

yeah it has a reputation for being a bit of a meat grinder

[remote wadi]

But no. If anything, I got punished for trying to be smart about what I did and essentially be told that nothing i actually did mattered

And I wanted to talk it out here to both give me a chance to relax a little and think about how to bring this up to the dm

It's not so much the challenges I hate as much as seeing and believing that nothing I do changes anything

[fickle heart]

Maybe a bit of a counterquestion as food for thought: If the player is being creative, should that automatically mean that the DM makes something work?

[nova trellis]

No, being creative is great but that doesn't mean it works.

As referee, you just have to say no sometimes.

[crimson gulch]

Not automatically imo

[remote wadi]

I don't think you've considered how often "never" occurs for some thinking that has paid off yet

[nova trellis]

Examples?

[remote wadi]

Let me count the ways...

[loud tendon]

some of the points are here.. #dnd-discussion message

[nova trellis]

We have a player that constantly tries to do absurd things with shape water that are simply not possible.

My favorite is walking up a tower by freezing and unfreezing his feet on the side of the wall.

[fickle heart]

I'm not trying to invalidate the negative experience, but put it into context from the opposite end of the spectrum to try to deconstruct said negative feelings about it. I think an important question to ask oneself for tempering expectations is how they would prefer a DM say "no" if the DM is going to say "no".

Would you prefer the DM saying "no" explicitly and therefore not having the freedom to try something without the possibility of success, or would you prefer having the DM let you try things, with no knowledge of the potential of success or failure?

[remote wadi]

First, trying to be distant enough from the party so I can be stealthy about progressing? Paladin casts a massive light source on a player, and the Death House is a claustrophobic's worst nightmare

Second, needing to escape the house with 3 simple, but brutal rules

1. Main rooms need a con save at the start of the turm to avoid taking poison damage
2. Doors are replaced by scythe blades that do 2d12 slashing damage on a failed check. Your options were either passing through and hoping for the best (Acrobatics check) or waiting an entire minute and searching for a timing window (It just becomes an intelligence check. That's it). They weren't traps, so they can't be disarmed or otherwise shut down
3. Interior walls can be broken down, but exteriors cannot. Also, a swarm of rats spawn every time you break a wall

[nova trellis]

"DnD is a fantasy world but its still a world with internal logic. Be out of the box, creativity is great. But understand theres limits."

[rugged hawk]

I feel like #3 is solved by liberal application of Fireball, but maybe I'm crazy

[remote wadi]

No, you couldn't make a makeshift mask to get some easier passes on the Con save
No, you couldn't break exterior walls and avoid some of the doorways
It literally only came down to "rely on luck or spend a minute to rely on luck with overall worse modifiers"

[nova trellis]

First time I did Death House, we ended up skipping most of it by breaking in from the top floor window.

Pfff, been ages.

[loud tendon]

having died with two different characters on two different runs through Death House.. yeah.. those are real things.

[remote wadi]

1. That would likely spawn at least 5 swarms of rats
2. That is literally impossible. Not just because the rest of my team used up all of their spell slots, but also because we were level 2

[loud tendon]

please don't post adventure spoilers

[rugged hawk]

Okay, if you break the wall, rats pour out. What if you just set the walls on fire and let that deal with the rat infestations?

[remote wadi]

Me or someone else? Because someone did ask me for examples, and I can edit spoilers onto my messages if need be

[remote wadi]

Then that solves absolutely nothing. They only spawn when you break a wall. No wall broken, no rats to get damaged by the fire

[rugged hawk]

Oh, so they're not inside the walls.

[remote wadi]

I don't know at this point

[loud tendon]

another user posted something.. but we shouldn't drop too many specifics.. Spoiler tag doesnt really apply since we ask for no spoilers at all outside the spoiler channels.

[rugged hawk]

Then it sounds like time to set a wall on fire. For SCIENCE!

[remote wadi]

Again

No spell slots

[rugged hawk]

You're adventurers. LIGHT A TORCH.

[remote wadi]

In a house that is already filled with smog from fires?

[nova trellis]

Breaking down walls i understand not allowing, at least for lower levels.

[remote wadi]

Walls could be broken, just not to ones leading directly outside

[crimson gulch]

The death hose has a very accurate name

[remote wadi]

And to the person saying to break the horizontal walls, that requires starting and/or ending a room that requires a con save to not take around 10 poison damage

[rugged hawk]

This whole scenario reminds me of Tomb of Annihilation but much more flammable. Unless there's something you're desperately trying to obtain in the Death House's guts, I'd consider just giving it the Scorched Earth treatment of attempting to burn it to the ground with some well-placed torches and alchemist fire.

[remote wadi]

My point is, it's tiring to hear people say "Well, DM's shouldn't ALWAYS reward smart play" when the reality for my campaign is not being rewarded ONCE for trying to think and play smart. For escaping the house, the only main available game plan was just "roll dice, get lucky, pray you don't get 2 shot when you have virtually no healing to begin with"

[loud tendon]

that really isn't going to help you defeat the house.. it'd likely just kill the PCs faster.

[loud tendon]

How many sessions have you had?

[rugged hawk]

I mean, it sounds like they're basically dead anyway, might as well do as much damage as they can before kicking the bucket.

[remote wadi]

Just completed the 4th

[fickle heart]

I get this, and it may just be a mismatch of expectations between the adventure and what you want of the adventure.

[crimson gulch]

As written, curse of strahd is a brutal campaign, if this is not the kind of challenge you enjoy then I would not continue

When I run it I tell folks that they better have backup charicters ready and to hold on tight

[remote wadi]

What I want of the adventure is to not feel like I'm the only one who is trying to be conscious of what I do and why. But that doesn't haopen because I am given even more difficulties for literally no reward

[crimson gulch]

You can't control the other players

[fickle heart]

That's seemingly a social problem mixed with an expectation problem, alas.

I'm not even saying that you aren't valid in feeling this way, but that feeling this way may be a noteworthy possible hint of a mismatch in what you want and what you are getting/will get from the adventure.

[loud tendon]

Is the DM relatively new to the game? or any of the other players? these could all be factors in making things seem more painful.
I honestly get that you are feeling frustrated. you have expressed that clearly and in some regards it makes sense. But 4 sessions and dealing not only with Barovia (CoS) and Death House, it is a tougher environment. It's not sunny nor happy most of the time. This chapter can actually tpk groups..

What it really sounds like is that you need to speak with the DM first about all this.. then maybe the part out of character. See where you all stand.

[nova trellis]

You should use Prestidigition, tap all the pcs noses, and make the smell poop. Literal brown noses.

[crimson gulch]

That kind of behavior would prompt me to remove a player

[remote wadi]

I unfortunately don't know any of the players that well. This is an online game due to my inability to find, host, or travel to in person games

I was trying to use the chances of roleplay to finally try to break the ice, but that meant nothing when all they did after the main combat was done for today was instantly dip

[rustic vine]

um hello i um have this thing and im looking for a dm along with some other players

if anyones intrested i mean

[glass granite]

For the record, I’m fairly sure this is stated in the module

[loud tendon]

most of us playing online don't know our groups at first.. that doesn't mean you can't talk to them.

like "hey folks, I know we just started playing but I'm struggling to connect with the game right now and feel like we maybe aren't on the same page. How are you feeling about the adventure so far?"

[glass granite]

Type /looking-for dm

[rustic vine]

yea i have one in looking for DM

[remote wadi]

It wouldn't surprise me. But if that were to be the only problem, then this wouldn't have been as huge of an issue. The size of the problems were larger, and the core issue of the problems was repeated

[loud tendon]

hi there, please check out #find-a-game for instructions on how to use the commands and find a DM. We don't allow group solicitation or formation outside those channels, but I welcome you to the server and wish you best of luck connecting with a solid DM

[raw ocean]

If D&D Beyond released a brand-new VR headset that let you play D&D seamlessly as a player, with an overhead operator-style view for DMs, would you try it?

Assume it already comes with an enormous library of pre-made modules and maps.

[rustic vine]

oh sorry about that

[nova trellis]

Thats would I do as a calling card when breaking into a nobles house. On a more serious note, a fun trick you could do is copy the smell of a guard dog's master when breaking into a house. 50-50 the dogs dont maul you but hey, better the 0.

[hushed mason]

lol. no.

[raw ocean]

Sword art online full dive levels of VR, if I had to describe it

[rustic vine]

i already have one looking for a dm but im also looking for some other players

[crimson gulch]

No, project sigil crashed so something like this is not happening.

Dnd is best when unplugged and ok with minimal digital tools for online play

[remote wadi]

It is possible and what I will likely do at some point, but everything in life is hitting me full force and it is leaving me both physically and emotionally unwell

Saying this because it won't be as big of a surprise to tell you that I am not motivated at all for just about anything, and this campaign making me feel powerless and humiliated is not helping

[loud tendon]

Same meat, different gravy.. you'd post in #looking-for-players to ask for more folks to join a game. Instructions are still in find a game

[fickle heart]

Facing rules, is that you?

[raw ocean]

By VR, I literally mean playing as your characters

Not just being in a VR environment with a D&D board in the middle

[rustic vine]

im sorry i think i dont know if i should be here at this point i think i should just go this all way to confuseing im sorry for the bother

[raw ocean]

But it seems like everyone's pretty negative to the idea so I won't push on the question anymore

[frail wasp]

i would rather play a generic dungeon crawler with a game master in VR vs "D&D in VR"

[loud tendon]

you are not a bother at all.. we just have dedicated spaces for group formation so that it keeps things organized and flowing. I'm trying to direct you to the most direct path to getting both a DM and more players..

[remote wadi]

They already left-

[crimson gulch]

Yep I understand. And I wouldent do that

[nova trellis]

Going to a channel called #looking-for-players was too complicated for them. 😔

[loud tendon]

you don't need to @ me in replies, I am here.

I'd already typed the answer out before they left.. shame.

[glass granite]

Hello here, i am Nugget

[remote wadi]

It's a habit. But I will keep that in mind

[nova trellis]

Watching Frieren makes me wanna go full caster again.

[nova trellis]

Honey mustard, barbecue, or ketchup?

[cobalt owl]

As someone who doesn't have any of the expanded books, is getting Monsters of the Multiverse a good choice now?

[fickle heart]

I do think that there could be some neat play patterns from having 3D representations in play, but Talespire does already exist.

[remote wadi]

So yeah. Spending my time here for now before I eventually try to ask my dm about this

[glass granite]

That’s a damn good question

[crimson gulch]

Still a great book yes

[cobalt owl]

Cool, there's the gift set (xanathars tashas Multiverse) on sale near me

So I'll probably grab that

[fickle heart]

I really should crack open Campaign Cartographer 3

Hopefully my desktop can run it with some meaningful speed.

I'll likely have to come to terms with the fact that splines can be good, and it's the function that defines their use

[remote wadi]

Not going to lie

I don't want to talk to the DM about what happened

I don't think i can take another instance of trying my best to word things carefully and thoughtfully just to have none of it matter

[idle oar]

If you're not communicating that back to your DM and group in a constructive manner, then yeah you're not going to get what you want from that D&D group.

[glass granite]

The DM can’t read your mind

[hushed mason]

(I missed what the problem is... what do they need to talk to the DM about?)

[glass granite]

They don’t seem to be enjoying their time at the table

[hushed mason]

That's it?

[crimson gulch]

Sounds like you need to leave that game then, you have been complaining here for a month

[humble cairn]

No D&D > Bad D&D

[fickle heart]

If you feel like you can't even talk to the DM to resolve issues, I think it's a good idea to consider if it's worth staying in the group, aye.

[glass granite]

And some of the issues seem to be an issue with the module more so than the DM…

[hushed mason]

Ah. Which adventure?

[idle oar]

Curse of Strahd

[glass granite]

Curse of Strahd

[hushed mason]

Oh. That seems to be very popular.

[glass granite]

Indeed

[knotty basin]

Almost as popular as crappy one-piece homebrew

[crimson gulch]

I love curse of strahd, have ran it 3 times

[hushed mason]

I acquired "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft", but I have yet to read it.

[crimson gulch]

Ah the 3e book?

[hushed mason]

That's what I play.

[remote wadi]

TLDR: CoS is definitely brutal, but I'm not sure it gives enough of a reason to make virtually every attempt to play smarter and not harder not only accomplish nothing, but also constantly comes with a punishment

[glass granite]

Thing is, everything you did has a reasonable explanation on why it didn’t work

[crimson gulch]

Sure does, it's a hard campaign

[knotty basin]

No spoilers please, I’m in a CoS group rn

[glass granite]

Ope, time to cut the spoilers

[knotty basin]

Not that you were yet

[glass granite]

We were damn close tbf

[remote wadi]

You could technically find some way, sure

This is every single instance not working out, with close to half being made worse as a result from trying

[glass granite]

Modules are usually more linear, and with one with the reputation of CoS I’m not surprised in the slightest

[remote wadi]

As i tried to say before, I appreciate a good challenge. But I at least want to feel like putting effort into playing smart actually pays off

[glass granite]

It does, but it seems you tried everything that doesn’t work

Which would naturally mean that it wouldn’t pay off

[loud tendon]

not just CoS. but Death house

[hushed mason]

Sounds like you need to find another game?

[glass granite]

We’ve been telling them that for a fair while, tbh. CoS just doesn’t seem their style

[hushed mason]

Okay, I think I'm caught up now. Thanks. 😄

[glass granite]

Hi caught up now, I’m Nugget

[remote wadi]

It took me 3 months to find a game with the only 4 requirements of "Saturday afternoon, no heavy amounts of homebrew, doesn't have massive red flags before session 1, and will actually let me join instead of rejecting me after several days of silence"

[knotty basin]

Careful, if you keep doing that you might awake to a wife and kids

[fickle heart]

It's admittedly quite tough to try to give usable feedback on this, because it seems like you have a specific desired game response in mind, but the entire issue is that your expectations may inherently not align with the game, which is not an issue that can be fixed without talking about it with the DM/party.

[glass granite]

And you also don’t seem to be too enthusiastic to talk about it with the people who matter

[hushed mason]

I can appreciate the challenges in trying to find a game. You see, I choose to play an older set of rules, so there are even fewer options and even more homebrew/Frankensteined rules.

[crimson gulch]

Finding free games that fit your shedual can be hard allright

[remote wadi]

I likely will at some point in time because if harsh reality of "Nothing has a chance of getting better if I don't try to fix it myself"

But not right now. I was already feeling terrible before because I was frustrated at having to choose between having bad experiences in anything or nothing at all

Made worse quickly by having my small escape from reality also be filled with instances like this

[remote wadi]

You have the luxury of finding happiness in it, which is good

[fickle heart]

The difficult question you may have to ask yourself is: "If my problems with this adventure are actually inherent to this adventure, do I want to continue playing it?"

There's nothing wrong with saying "no, I don't want to continue playing it."

[rough basalt]

True not every adventure is for everyone

[remote wadi]

Well, yeah. If I needed to bow out of it, I absolutely could with no shame. But unfortunately, I am a very flawed human who wants to stick around and make something work out instead of abandoning something and moving on for the umpteenth time

[rough basalt]

i wasted a year with a strahd group that never went anywhere

[fickle heart]

Where you will likely find the most agony if your issues with it are inherent to it is the idea that it could be so much fun if it just was different, despite the possibility of that being near-zero.

[plucky flame]

Guys hate to break up the discussion, I just have a question (i hope this is the right place to ask). For my 3rd campaign I am thinking of using Tasha's cauldron to everything for making my character, do you guys think its too early to dive into this book for me?

[rough basalt]

No.

[crimson gulch]

Not at all, that's a good book

[hushed mason]

How long were your campaigns?

[plucky flame]

were they not able to find the artifacts?

[remote wadi]

4 sessions, roughly 4-5 hours each

[crimson gulch]

That was the first book I bought after the core 3

[hushed mason]

I think no spoilers?

[rough basalt]

there was a multitude of issues

[remote wadi]

Presumably so. DMs are open if you want to talk there

[rough basalt]

We'd go through Death House in 3 sessions roughly

[remote wadi]

Elaborate

[plucky flame]

damn

[rough basalt]

then after that the games would just go wrong

[remote wadi]

As did we

[rough basalt]

DM didnt wanna run sessions

[hushed mason]

That was directed at the guy that mentioned artifacts. I just forgot to @mention @plucky flame

[remote wadi]

Oh

[rough basalt]

One guy couldnt stop making nsfw jokes which would make the dm end sessions early cause "we laughing too much"

[plucky flame]

i apologize

[remote wadi]

Well, dms are still open

[rough basalt]

Then DM didnt backup his campaign so it got deleted in a fantasy grounds update

so we had to restart

[hushed mason]

I mean, that a campaign invovles searching for McGuffins isn't much of a spoiler. But someone mentioned it earlier, so I just thought... anyway. 🙂

[rough basalt]

then same thing happened

the DM likes the idea of playing dnd not actually doing it

[remote wadi]

Should we talk elsewhere?

[crimson gulch]

This is wild to me, like how does that even work? These digital tools

[hushed mason]

No, not at all. I'm not a policeperson, anyway.

[rough basalt]

Fantasy Grounds is pretty crappy

[remote wadi]

...huh?

[rough basalt]

Unless you're the type of person to look at Microsoft Excel and go woo yeah baby

[hushed mason]

It's not my job to shush folks about spoilers.

[rough basalt]

Its basically the Microsoft Excel of VTTs

[hushed mason]

Oh, I like Excel!

[rough basalt]

If you know how to use it? You can make it sing, dance, or both.
If you dont know how to use it? Absolute nightmare

[remote wadi]

Oh. I just wanted to talk in dms to not flood the chat and talk with you more directly

[hushed mason]

Sure, if you wish.

[rough basalt]

There was so many times i wanted to quit just cause of FG alone

cause of how frustrating it was to use

[plucky flame]

i use dnd beyond mostly, but I am thinking of switching

primarily because I cant use half the spells and items in the website

it redirects me to buy the books

[fickle heart]

Basically, if your issues with Death House are just what Death House is meant to be, trying to reject those things that are baked-in will like just lead to resentment instead of satisfaction.

[crimson gulch]

Games ran on paper are best imo, even online

[plucky flame]

and the problem isint buying the books, its just that they dont do relative pricing, and that kinda sucks

[errant bramble]

Where are the combat rules for different sized creatures at? Can't seem to find them.

[nova trellis]

Your local libraries probably have DnD books 🙂‍↔️

[crimson gulch]

Relative pricing?

[crimson gulch]

There aren't a lot of differences, just grapple and movement reallt

[fickle heart]

Oooh that'd make it pretty difficult indeed.

[errant bramble]

Really? Though they had less damage with heavy weapons if they were small, or could move through large creatures spaces and stuff.

[crimson gulch]

No, heavy weapons just have a flat stat requirement

[plucky flame]

basically pricing stuff at a tag which is feasible for the people of a country

[knotty basin]

Nope

[crimson gulch]

That's a recent cha ge though

[errant bramble]

Huh. Ok then. So being small isnt really worth that much. No bonuses to AC or stealth?

[crimson gulch]

Ahh, regional pricing, understood, yeah they cost more here too

[crimson gulch]

No

[errant bramble]

Rip

[crimson gulch]

Halfings have a particular bonus to hiding, but not just all small creatures do

[glass granite]

You can ride medium creatures!
-# for all that’s worth

[knotty basin]

This is why druids tend not to like halflings

[remote wadi]

It doesn't feel satisfying, though. The only reason everybody got out alive wasn't some teamwork and creativity, it was just because none of us got screwed over by Lady Luck past the point of no return. Nothing I really did to try and think outside the box mattered, and this persisted outside of Death House

[errant bramble]

What would a medium mount be? lol. Dog seems like it would be a small, and a horse is large.

[knotty basin]

Dog is a medium

[errant bramble]

Dang, so small is Smol.

[glass granite]

Steel defenders and beastmaster summons

Extremely niche and not practical, but it’s cute

[plucky flame]

I wanted to ask you about managing your things on paper, any tips?

[crimson gulch]

Sure, every campaign I run is in a notebook, players track their own sheets

[fickle heart]

Aye, CoS can definitely be like that, at least at some points. If anything, that can be a dynamic used for narratives where the protagonists are intended to have feelings of powerlessness.

[nova trellis]

Anyone else play fighters as a stealth class?

[glass granite]

I usually use rangers for that

[kind gate]

How would you make that work?

[glass granite]

Eh, skill expert (optional) , light armor and Dex weapon

[kind gate]

Never thought of any of that

[glass granite]

At least that’s what I’d do

[remote wadi]

I guess my best way of wording it is that a well designed unkillable boss does have more than one way of avoiding death

But a poorly designed one is that you didn't have ways of trapping it, distracting it, or anything else. You're alive purely because of dice rolls that didn't screw you over enough to need a new character

[kind gate]

If you combined it with expertise in stealth, that could be really good

[undone fable]

rangers are better than fighters for stealth

[glass granite]

Indeed

Well, they’re easier

[nova trellis]

Use the echo as a teleport. Just look under a door or thru a keyhole and bam. Or leave behind you as a get out of trouble card.

[kind gate]

Also, I spent a while cooking up a High-DPS build for the Artificer, wanna hear it guys?

[remote wadi]

As i keep trying to say, I love good challenges in games. Ones that test your knowledge, force you to think carefully before you act, and if by some chance you find a small opening, you can leverage that at least a little bit or have high risk, high reward

[kind gate]

It does 130 damage per action at max

[nova trellis]

A echo knight acts as more versatile shadow monk.

[fickle heart]

I mean, this is largely what a dice game can come down to, honestly.

[glass granite]

Bring it to #optimization

[kind gate]

Okay thanks

[glass granite]

Maybe they’ll even find a way to make it stronger

[nova trellis]

Theres also battlemaster with the ambush maneuver, a 1d8 for stealth, dexterity, or initiative.

[remote wadi]

I'm saying that luck should not be your only option and what is stopping you from a quick departure to the hereafter

[nova trellis]

But echo knight is my prefered choice for stealth.

[fickle heart]

It shouldn't always be your only option, of course, but sometimes it truly is.

[remote wadi]

This is starting to annoy me. I'm not saying that luck should not be present. I'm saying that luck should not be your only way forward

[glass granite]

And Death House is usually one of those places

[fickle heart]

I'm not saying that luck should be for everything, but sometimes the entire game just revolves around luck and what you are describing is one of those places.

[woven flint]

The gambling game relies on luck?! /lighthearted

[fickle heart]

I don't know how else to say it, but what you are playing might just not be for you, y'know?

[nova trellis]

Theres also the rules as written version where you can TECHNICALLY use echo avatar to move up to 1000 feet and teleport to your echo with basically no consequences.

Of course, a QnA made a erata for that.

[limber trail]

Part of the reason we play DnD with dice and not just by saying what things do is because the randomness is an important part of the experience. with luck, you might survive adventures. At points across the entire adventure, there is an element of chance in playing the game. You can influence that luck with your modifiers of course, but that luck is a core part of the experience

[remote wadi]

Is it really that bad to want my attempts at creativity and attention to details result in me playing at a higher difficultly for no real reward?

Is it really?

[fickle heart]

It's not bad at all, as I mentioned before. I'm just saying that sometimes that want may not be engaged with in the way that you desire, especially if you're referring to module-based stuff.

[humble cairn]

There are games and modules called "meatgrinder" games where you're just expected to die and make new characters. This sounds like a meatgrinder. It's not wrong to like something different, but it might be weird to go into a meatgrinder expecting something different.

[fickle heart]

I am specifically saying that if you want something that runs contrary to the module, the module might not be for you, y'know? That isn't to say that your want isn't valid or anything of that matter, just that your want may not be met by a module, a type of content that is famously "static".

[limber trail]

It also varies from group to group. Every group does play DnD differently. Every DM rules differently. if the way one DM plays the game isn't fun for you, there are others out there

[humble cairn]

Not bad, but not matching every game style.

[nova trellis]

I would just play for a bit past Deathhouse. Thats all ill say.

[humble cairn]

Which is why Tamms is basically saying it might be a mismatch in expectations.

[limber trail]

Yes - death house is famously brutal compared to a lot of other CoS

[crimson gulch]

My players living or dieing comes down to the dice like every session

[remote wadi]

I guess it being a meatgrinder makes sense for it being CoS

But what is the point of trying to be invested in how the game plays out if playing the most mediocre thoughtless plans yields the same results and lower difficulties than plans that have even a hint of tactics behind it?

[humble cairn]

Some people like that

You, it seems, do not.

[fickle heart]

Aye. Do I like that? Nope! But some people do, and I know that a module is the worst thing to attempt to push against in that way, considering it's predesigned module.

Which is why, as I've said a few times, the module might just not be your jam, and that's totally okay.

Like I said before, the part that will bring you agony is trying to make the module your jam, if it clearly isn't.

[nova trellis]

Deathhouse can basically be its own mini module. Play like 2 sessions past it, drop it if not for you.

[remote wadi]

Let me get this straight. You take the choice that costs the most, has the least amount of thought behind it, and gives no sense of accomplishment

And there are people who are into that

[nova trellis]

Watch like, Frieren if you cant find a new group.

[fickle heart]

People may get accomplishment from it anyways, but yup!

[humble cairn]

Some people just like the sheer gamble of having everything depend on luck of the dice.

[limber trail]

Sometimes people do it for the sake of doing it, because it's fun. Me personally, as a player, even if something isn't necessarily the smart choice, it might present an opportunity to do or experience something fun. And I think that's a good enough reason on its own.

[glass granite]

It’s allll or nothinggg!!

[humble cairn]

The point is, people like different things, and that's okay.

[remote wadi]

Then they would go for something high risk, high reward. Not "hit modifier of +8 to land an entangled and end the fight nigh instantly"

[nova trellis]

I dont know, I don't think busting down walls is all that creative honestly.

[humble cairn]

This was a hypothetical. I'm not really going to get into the weeds with it when it just seems you're using it as a way to just vent your frustration.

[remote wadi]

This is literally just "you need a spell slot used up because one of your party members deliberately created an oopsie. Don't try to think of ways to accomplish this without a spell slot. It will be harder for you and accomplish nothing at all."

[fickle heart]

Sometimes, it very much could be.

[humble cairn]

Also I'm not one of those people, I try to minimize the power of the dice in my games, so I'm not the right person to answer.

[fickle heart]

But again, nothing any of us say will actually make you enjoy the module more if you don't like the module. We did not make it, nor do we control it. It's up to you to figure out what you want to do if you aren't having fun.

[limber trail]

I do think bloodline, you'd be best off sitting down and talking with your DM about how the session went and some of your frustrations. As much as the people here have insights or advice, ultimately nothing we say or do has any bearing for your game. Your DM and group are the ones who can change that and make you have a better experience.

[hushed mason]

I disagree. I don't think this is solvable with a DM chat. Better to just get on with finding a new game.

[fickle heart]

Venting is totally fine if your goal is to actually vent, but I'm admittedly not very good with venting because I'm a "fix-it" type of person, so I'm possibly not the best person to help in that regard.

[remote wadi]

To recap one of the problems, a vampire is on the roof and won't come down. Priest wants him alive

Can't bum rush damage with arrows, he just heals
Can't get a crit, that will certainly kill

[nova trellis]

Personally, this is me making a assumption. The more I hear, the more I think its you having certain expectations and not being able to roll with the punches.

[remote wadi]

So my other plan at that moment was probably the best thing I could do: attempt to shoot at his limbs so he can't cling onto the roof and fall off

[limber trail]

In my opinion, that is a very reductive stance that I think isn't all that necessary after what I'm presuming has been one to two sessions. I wholeheartedly believe every issue can be made better by communication. Talking things out is the best way to solve TTRPG problems. What it seems to me is that there's a difference of expectations with what the DM is expecting vs what the players are expecting. So talk about it.

[remote wadi]

Not only did the DM just decide i am making these rolls with disadvantage

They accomplished worse than nothing towards getting him off the roof

[hushed mason]

One or two sessions? Okay, perhaps I misunderstood. This sounded like it was a much longer term problem than that.

[limber trail]

This sounds like it's content from very early on in curse of strahd. So I'm assuming one or two.

[hushed mason]

How long have you been playing the game, Bloodline? How many sessions?

[fickle heart]

The DM deciding that makes sense, as you can't technically do called shots normally in 5e, so it's entirely possible that the DM just says "no". You would normally shoot for center of mass, so adding a penalty to attempt to aim at a smaller portion is a pretty reasonable expectation.

[glass granite]

4 I believe

[nova trellis]

A battlemaster with trip attack would be useful here. But like, that sounds like normal DnD. Like, the DM sounds totally reasonable there.

[hushed mason]

There are no called shots in D&D, are there in fifth edition?!

[remote wadi]

This is an example of the problem I am facing. Not only am I paying the price for someone else's blatant mistake, my attempts at thinking outside the box with what little I have to meet the desired outcome without paying a huge price not only made it harder on myself, but also resulted in just "Wasted arrows, should have used Ensnaring Strike"

[limber trail]

Not in 5e. The closest was sharpshooter and gwm in 2014.

[nova trellis]

The DM is basically allowing homebrew for you at the moment.

[hushed mason]

Okay, thanks.

[nova trellis]

Something something, every martial should have maneuvers. 😔

[fickle heart]

Simply put: You attempted to do something with a lower chance of success than if you aimed center mass, so logically it makes sense to have a lower chance of success.

[limber trail]

Ultimately, it's up to the DM. Remember that they're human. I won't speak for every DM around, but I know I've personally made rulings in the moments and gone on to decide they were unfair or otherwise.

But also, I think it's fair and I think the same, that a roll is more likely to succeed when there's some resource expenditure involved. Dropping a spell slot to achieve something making it easier to achieve that thing is pretty reasonable in my eyes.

[remote wadi]

There was no battlemaster, this is level 3

Heck, the only 2 people who could reasonably reach him was me and a wizard who casted a concentration spell despite not only being in range of and quickly becoming grappled, but also decided to attack the vampire with a staff instead of disengaging, fleeing off the roof, and then resuming the attack (They were an Owlin and flew up there near the start)

[fickle heart]

Additionally, a vampire's regeneration making it not fall when shot also makes sense.

[glass granite]

DnD encounters are usually made to sap resources. They’re more so designed to see what resources you should spend, instead of repeatedly trying to find ways to not spend them. Of course, examples of both exist, but in my experience that’s how it usually goes.

[fickle heart]

Does that mean your disappointment is invalid? Definitely not. That feeling is definitely valid. Even so, that doesn't mean it would change the result if the DM was using what they see as internal consistency.

[remote wadi]

I do agree. If you are using something like a spell slot to make the outcome easier, that is perfectly okay

But this is being essentially forced to use a spell slot and be unable to find a way to make the outcome of subduing and recapturing the vampire without a spell slot

[glass granite]

Basically, you can try to use smart ways around things, but being upset when those methods don’t work because of a consistent and fair reason is…

[fickle heart]

Sometimes this is actually how it works, yes. Even with a spell slot it may not work.

[nova trellis]

I was being cheeky mentioning battlemaster. Anyhow, from the description, the DM didn't do anytging bad. Aiming at limbs doesn't exist and he allowed homebrew ruling just so you can do that. Would easier aiming at center mass, hence the disadvantage.

[glass granite]

Someone could’ve tried and grapple it towards the party, tbf

Or at least off the roof

[remote wadi]

Hence my disappointment with shooting him in the limbs not only resulting in disadvantage (higher risk), but resulting in the same exact outcome (no change, need a spell slot)

[glass granite]

Well, it’s reasonable

[remote wadi]

It was 30 feet away bare minimum on a roof

[limber trail]

Sometimes, if things go bad and a situation gets worse, there's just not a good way to achieve something without a spell slot. Or rather, it sounds like the vampire was on the ground, but fled to the roof. Capturing it while on the ground was how you recapture it without a spell slot, and that didn't work out so the situation got worse.

[glass granite]

Still

[remote wadi]

How?

[humble cairn]

You're disappointed that something with a high chance of failure failed?

[glass granite]

Get the owlin to grapple a high strength character to the roof, and grapple them there

[fickle heart]

This is something on the exact topic we're currently discussing that was discussed in another server within the past few days.

[remote wadi]

No, I did hit the creature still thanks to a high hit modifer. I'm saying thay despite this hit, it resulted in no progress of getting him off the roof

[fickle heart]

It didn't need to, is the point being made.

[nova trellis]

Limb shooting doesn't exist in DnD yet the DM allowed it. It would be a high skill thing to do, hence the disadvantage.

[hot reef]

There was a higher chance of failure for no benefit
That’s what I see as the problem here

[nova trellis]

Plus, the thing you were asking for would be akin to a fighter maneuver or a ranger spell.

[remote wadi]

They have easily megative strength modifiers. If anything, the reverse occurred, which resulted in me also having to save our grappled Owlin Wizard

[humble cairn]

Ahh, yeah as a DM it would have been better to disallow that in the first place if they weren't going to have it do anything.

[glass granite]

Noone in your party had strength?

[glass granite]

If the DM disallowed it, they’d be complaining their DM wouldn’t allow them to use their creative mind at all

[remote wadi]

I will say this again
The only 2 people that could hit this creature 30 feet in the air on a roof was me and the Wizard who put himself right in harm's way

[glass granite]

And I will say THIS again. Yall could’ve carried an ally with said wizard and get THEM to grapple

[remote wadi]

They can't climb

[glass granite]

No need: the wizard with flight can carry them

[remote wadi]

They are stuck on the ground, I am using my bow, and the wizard flew up

[humble cairn]

Voluntarily failing the grapple save against the Owlin so they could be carried.

[raw ocean]

Anyone have a favorite sub-class that they like to use that dosen't get alot of spot light?

[fickle heart]

I think it's worth deconstructing how this interaction could have gone, because it's obvious you're dissatisfied but I think the part worthwhile to deconstruct is if you're dissatisfied because of the gamble not paying off, because you were allowed to make the gamble, or because you think the entire situation was unfair.

[humble cairn]

Honestly none of these suggestions mean anything since it already happened. Just chalk it up to a frustrating session, those happen.

[glass granite]

Does Spore Druid count?

[raw ocean]

Never heard of it, so yeah

[glass granite]

Helll yeaaa

[nova trellis]

I think Artificer Alchemist is pretty fun. Possible free flight at low levels is always a good time.

[remote wadi]

The only real option so far was the wizard carrying someone up and carrying the vampire off the roof

Heck, that is a very good example of high risk (they shove you off and you take damage from the fall) and high reward (subdued with no larger resources used)

[nova trellis]

Any boarded up windows in that scene?

[crimson gulch]

i mean at that point, if it wasent threataning you just let it go?

[glass granite]

Did yall try nets?

[remote wadi]

This thing was supposed to be in the basement. Which our Fighter decided to let go

[undone fable]

why do meatgrinders exist?

[remote wadi]

No one had any

And I used up the only money I had available getting rations for everyone's unprepared decisions

[glass granite]

You’re a ranger with goodberry, no?

[crimson gulch]

Challenge is fun

[viscid chasm]

I think part of why some people like it has to do with liking grimdark experiences

[undone fable]

have you ran a meatgrinder?

[remote wadi]

This was supposed to be in the basement. Our Fighter decided to smash the lock, see the Vampire, and basically go "Stop running away from me. The door's right there, feel free to leave."

[crimson gulch]

Several

[remote wadi]

No, I have Hunter's Mark, Cure Wounds, and Ensnaring Strike

[undone fable]

i love hunters mark

[fickle heart]

I'm going to present a situation that may sound radical, but I promise it's entirely possible: What if you legitimately lack the tools to solve this problem and you are forced to abandon the effort for a lack of progress? What if the only way for this to be resolved at the moment is either you walking away or for the DM to throw you a bone and say "well, you tried really hard, so I'm going to take pity on you because you keep bashing your head against the wall" (not verbatim)?

Essentially, how would you react in a situation that you can't reasonably resolve to your satisfaction at the current moment?

[remote wadi]

And even if i did have Goodberry, not going to tie my rations to a quick to deplete spell pool

[remote wadi]

Then it would be abundantly clear to just treat it as an impossible task and move on. Even that can be done well and make it fun, but it being almost mandatory is the opposite

[fickle heart]

So the follow-up question: What should the DM do in that scenario? Throw you a bone?

In that case, it may not be actual creative thinking that resolved the situation, but the DM saying "ah, I guess that works..."

[nova trellis]

So, a vampire is currently mauling you/also sticking to celling. I feel you could like, go outside.

[crimson gulch]

If it's on the roof it's not mauling anyone on the ground that's for sure

[remote wadi]

Perhaps a small part of it is not have the solution fail or having the problem start because of someone's incompetence (often to the point of if someone said that they were doing this on purpose, you would believe them)

As of now, it required me to bail the team out again (like that will never get old at all...) or a plan that, despite being well thought out, required quite some time to think about and requires our Wizard to not charge in and make the problem worse

[crimson gulch]

Lots of things that you do in a dnd gamr will fail

I had a cleric burn his divine intervention last night to try and geas a death knight, he dropped a legendary resistance and i quipped that "your holy words are meaningless, your God has no power here" and it was an epic moment

[fickle heart]

But the solution might not actually have been good enough, which is what I'm getting at. Just because you assume that shooting the vampire's limbs is gonna make it drop, doesn't mean it will actually make it drop. The second part is something I think that has more room for you to be frustrated about, and is potentially the real sticking point here.

[remote wadi]

If anything, this just makes me wish I didn't spend all that time trying to solve things diplomatically

[fickle heart]

Out of curiosity, how new are you to D&D?

[glass granite]

You tried to be diplomatic with vampires?