💬┃general

[south moat]

Hello there

[primal abyss]

Hope the day is treating you and everyone well

[balmy arrow]

[south moat]

Spent a lot of it outside, more work to do tomorrow still
Finally time to relax though

Hope your day is starting fine

[main frigate]

I noticed your discord is sleeping on pc instead of your bed recently, are your dicord okey?

[gritty helm]

hello there

[primal abyss]

My Discord is fine!

Sometimes I might just leave it on 😆

[main frigate]

Do your discord want to go for a holiday trip?

[primal abyss]

Maybe. Even Discord needs a little R&R sometime

[main frigate]

R&R?

Rest & Relaxation or Rest & Recuperation oh

what place are your choices for Rest & Relaxation or Rest & Recuperation?

? Isn't Derrick on the way of his holiday trip 🤔 Something must go wrong on his discord

[barren mural]

900-1200 c is good- after 5k same drops...

[primal abyss]

I wouldn't be worried about anyone based off their Discord status 😆 but for me, it just depends. Most of the time, It's playing games, watching movies and eating.

[median perch]

[main frigate]

oh yes. You're a real gamer. Nice to grab one to ask them:

1. Why are you want to join in in-game events?
2. What kind of in-game events would you like?

[primal abyss]

In-game events are just one other way we can provide some fun, interesting or just different approach to play LE. I'd like in-game events that everyone can do and share experiences.

[main frigate]

Cool.
❎ Races
❎ Time challenges
❎ Kill challenges
❎ Seasonal
❎ Savenger hunts
✅ Other (comment below)
I'd like in-game events that everyone can do and share experiences.

Share experiences is hard to do because players must played what the topic is relevant, the range can quite vast

[gritty helm]

something like idk, where winds meet has currently an event where players show they characters and vote for the best looking ones ? Not exactly that, but something along those lines ?

[turbid silo]

Good day all!

[primal abyss]

Hello Derrick~

[turbid silo]

Really appreciate everyone that's voted and shared thoughts in our recent survey!

[main frigate]

lol Derrick learnt my eye magic

[south moat]

Hey Derrick

[primal abyss]

All of those you can do and talk about them to your friends before, during or after. So those all count. As a whole we'd like to do our best to provide not only feedback but a chance to liven up LE and your seasons.

While we cannot make a promise to include a certain thing...just know that we're doing whatever we can to properly share all of this information.

Thank you so much for being engaging, Kirra. I know if you play an in-game event you'd definately talk about it here 😆 so that's more of that

[elder wedge]

any time frame yet for next season?

[primal abyss]

Got the details - #news message

[turbid silo]

Hey nub! How are you?

[turbid silo]

March 26

[main frigate]

? I don't being engaging. I just want an answer for confusion brought by Kain yesterday

[proper sluice]

Hi! Guys, I calculated the chances of success for crafting 2T7 items, and I made a video to explain my results, but since it didn't seem to reach out as many people as I hoped, I shared some info here, as I believe there's some useful stuff for any min-max enthusiast. #👑┃item-showcase message
there's way more information on the video. If you want to check it out, here it is: #🎥┃video-shoutout message

[main frigate]

how your trip going? You should enjoy your trip instead of staying here

[turbid silo]

Not on it just yet!!

[main frigate]

Sad. Judd should approve you go off work since now to enjoy a trip

[round lake]

are future leagues will also be like.. 1/2 league per year?

[south moat]

Pretty good, tired though
How about you?

[turbid silo]

Doing well. Lots of anxiety preparing to travel and all that, but excited at the same time.

[main frigate]

what place are your choices for this holiday?

[turbid silo]

Heading to Seattle

[main frigate]

to visit where in Seattle?

[turbid silo]

No need to get into specifics, but visiting family

[main frigate]

Oh family stuff. Not an interesting topic for me too.

I wish I don't have a family if I can.

[night marten]

all we want is a merch store 😛

[main frigate]

what about a floating epoch?

[primal abyss]

You just want a Gregory plushie. Don't deny it....because I do too

[turbid silo]

Yes

I want one too haha

[strange fulcrum]

Will there be any soft reset before season 4? :)

[main frigate]

why you can't get one?

Just ask Wick for the picture and custom the size, pay then a template will give to you in a week

[primal abyss]

Got it. Make Wick do all the work 🫡

NIFE, no news or plans but I would strongly ask that you throw that into the #suggestions

[strange fulcrum]

Ill try, thanks :) !

[main frigate]

Wick or Kain? Kain maybe

[scenic fog]

Good morning Travellers

[main frigate]

oh but the hat will tricky to deal... It's a mini barrel

[turbid silo]

Hey Tigress!

How are you

[scenic fog]

I dunno yet, lol. How are you?

I am still phasing into the waking world.

[turbid silo]

Haha, I'm doing alright

I know that feeling

Shake the cobwebs

[scenic fog]

That's what the coffee's for. sips

[turbid silo]

I just took a sip myself haha

[scenic fog]

I've really been having a blast with the elemental nova build I made up

[turbid silo]

Oooo nice!

I'm having fun with my runemaster lighting build too

[scenic fog]

it uses the primordial ring and 3 different sets for +3 to skills

and those sets give me enough flat damage to scale nova into 6 digit tooltip

150k right now

[primal abyss]

I love hearing stuff like that

[scenic fog]

higher with ascendance

i figured out a way to make nova level 40

then i built high radius and stun into the build

and because of the sets, i have lightning meteors for boss nuking

[elder wedge]

will the time between seasons stay this long?

[turbid silo]

It's important for us to deliver the content our players deserve so we have shared seasonal updates will have more time between them to accomplish this goal @elder wedge

[elder wedge]

oke thx for the explanation, any chance we can get a corruption leaderboard next season so you have something to aim for later in the season?

[scenic fog]

That is such a good idea

[turbid silo]

I can say that this has been discussed internally and something we want to do

[elder wedge]

glad to hear, would be so nice

[simple heart]

Corruption leaderboard probably require a try to balance skill and masteries. (And monster scaling too that is particularly bad at high corruption)
Or that would just confirm that ballista rogue still can go up to 30k corruption.

[elder wedge]

just decrease the range of it, so it can't shoot out of screen

[simple heart]

Yes, so you agree that we need a try to balance thing

[main frigate]

Oh man even plan to a leaderboard...

[elder wedge]

there will always be one thing thats more OP then the rest, thats arpg

[main frigate]

Corruption is the most boring mechanic for endgame. The game just more boring with one more leaderboard

[simple heart]

Ofc perfect balance is not needed.
But an range of x100-1000between skills is too much to consider seriously a leaderboard.

[scenic fog]

Has PvP been discussed as a feature?

[barren mural]

37k corrp:)))

[scenic fog]

Oh oh, and party lobbies!

[simple heart]

Pvp is not good in hns, as it needs very specific balance works. To be honest only verypvp oriented games manage that and always with hard restrictions on possibility on loot.

I would prefer they try to improve cooperative pve instead.

[turbid silo]

PvP would be interesting, but would require a lot to make it work well

[barren mural]

me vs allserver i can kill with 1 shoot:)

2 day later40k corrp:))

75k coming soon

[simple heart]

Good luck vs reflect 70k true damage

[barren mural]

cannot work reflect on me:)

[simple heart]

Ha yes ballista!

[barren mural]

monster life almost %60k in this corrp for now:)

so i hittin multi trilion x9999999 dmg:)

[simple heart]

Lol that's why pvp is not a possibility in this game, it is just not designed for it. You would have to do a total rework to make it happen in a serious way.

[barren mural]

🙂

[simple heart]

Multi trillion dps skill
And there is cinder strike that max at 200k with full dps investment.

But they talk about the leaderboard... Guys leaderboard is for games that are taken seriously ! You can't be taken seriously when a skill does 100 000 times the dps of the next skills!

[barren mural]

i dont thinnk so bro

cuz my build most hardest in this game

people cannot play this build i see

7 button hardcore gameplay

[simple heart]

7 buttons when there is only 5 accessible ? How?

[barren mural]

can u check my last video / video-shoutout

can u check now here

community

u will see there

• potion and + dodge

manuel gameplay full

[turbid silo]

Crazy fight!

[barren mural]

its not easy- its not a bug- its not broke

[elder wedge]

not everyone has to like leaderboard, ppl who like it can enjoy it

[barren mural]

and nerfed this build x10 times

this build just gameplay bro

[simple heart]

Lol so you can do the same with any other serious build. As it is your gameplay that carries you up to 40k.

[barren mural]

i can go with all builds

cuzi know this mechanics

but people just going max 7 8 k

problem not builds

melee builds just must play oblivion confluence so x5 shade ----- projectile builds can only go normal Shade

if u want to push corrp

[simple heart]

You obviously play very good and pushed hard, but I don't think all build are equal at all and by a large margin. And i don't trust you when you say you could push any other masteries than falconer past 10k corruption.

[barren mural]

i can say maybe will be Wrong ( sorry my english is not good ) maxroll not a good guider for this game. cuz steling my builds and putting in the site and no credit wtf really. and only builds kill uber just lol

[barren mural]

season 1 with wraithlord was 8.8k 🙂

i can do now 25 30k

25 30k corrp with primalist ( with all build)easy

[balmy arrow]

Abomination

[obtuse bay]

[barren mural]

just go oblivion confluence with abom

[balmy arrow]

[barren mural]

and u can go 20k corrp in 1 2 week max

if u have keystone:)

[balmy arrow]

have accumulated them again

[barren mural]

hehehhe

[willow sentinel]

Can't wait to see 20k corruption Swarmblade

[barren mural]

we can bet:)

i m live all the time on twitch:)

closed 20 min ago:)

[balmy arrow]

AHAHAHAH

[barren mural]

ultra easy with swarm

just need more practice

for every version shades

i killed 50k + shade in this game maybe more:)

[balmy arrow]

You're already the lord

[barren mural]

gimme ur power mate:)

[balmy arrow]

[barren mural]

Bet????

[willow sentinel]

I mean sure

I would love to be proven wrong

[barren mural]

🙂

[barren mural]

i can show .. if u have horizon mao so echo cuz need more keystone i can start tomorrrow

1k corrp/1-1.5hr

for first 10k:)

[simple heart]

I am interested too. I will check tomorrow for your progress with the swarmblade past 10k corruption.

[barren mural]

i can but i said vlad will open horizon map for keystones cuz i dont have my all done:)

100 keystone 1k-1.25k corrp

+- 100 200

so need 1000 keystone

btw i cant downgrade my corrp cuz we cant kill reset zone guardians:)

ultra mega hard

[simple heart]

So you only do orobyss map and not echoes at 37k ?

[barren mural]

nooonono

i played 100k map maybe more:)

i have all gears of all builds:)

and COF

100%

i ll rush corrp for swarmblade just this

[scenic fog]

Are there any characters that can use a 1h axe in each hand?

I'm theorycrafting

[barren mural]

wraithlord

can use

and with T8

each hand? ahh

i mean just 1 hand

[scenic fog]

Interesting suggestion nonetheless, thank you.

[barren mural]

check passive tree of class

i dont remember now

[simple heart]

Primalist

[scenic fog]

Looks like its time to create JurassicMark

from accounting

Watch out, because he's here to make some serious budget cuts... to the monster population...

pushes up spectacles

[obtuse prawn]

reminds me i still have some S3 stuff to do...

[bold axle]

I wish we could make private leagues so that we could do fresh starters when seasons are delayed 🙁

[willow sentinel]

You could go saf or scf, if you haven't done it already

SCF is always fresh start

[turbid silo]

Definitely add this to the #suggestions channel -- We gather everything there weekly!

[brittle hollow]

Did you ever share your tri-ele build?

[scenic fog]

No I havent gotten around to it yet

I should, later today maybe

The thing I am apprehensive about is getting unsolicited advice after I post it

talked down to, you know?

Egos and whatnot

There is nothing I abhor more than unsolicited advice

[stone leaf]

Def could use a mid-season boost of some sort since there is so much time left lol

[copper sorrel]

wat about an xp boost, since it's cristmas time all over aain

[south moat]

Eh xp boost
Not sure how good that would be realy

[copper sorrel]

it would be te lazy, but effective way, to offer sometin. cool would be tins like items, special santa's pants

[night marten]

the only problem is with an ex boost...you would increase favor and stuff too

[brittle hollow]

I understand. I was asking because it sounded interesting and I would love to try it. If you never upload it that’s fine!

[brittle hollow]

That’s not necessarily a problem. I would prefer to actually get my favor and stuff faster. Don’t really care about reaching 100 though

[copper sorrel]

could you cane your time on pc and constantly apply a cristmas-time exp-boost? if it was coded
in offline

[night marten]

except people would then think that is the normal favor rate even tho it isnt. and when you dropped back to normal, people would then get mad at a 'nerf'

its happened before

[brittle hollow]

Ah… yes. Now I understand, even though I don’t like it..

[night marten]

yeah

[calm jay]

Unless I'm totally misreading this Lich can also do it, although it's 25pt so you have to pick it as your Mastery. But they can do eet!

Plus a 10% damage stim for having axes equipped

[gritty helm]

XP boost ? Meh
Corruption boost ? That sounds better tbh

Or even drop boost, but that one probably opens a can of worms

[short vessel]

Tbh the pack events are good, they increase mob density a noticeable amount

[hearty crystal]

for the quiz do they mean races as in dragons elfs etc or like races as in running

[night marten]

if you have to ask likely shouldnt be taking the survey

[fervent lintel]

I was looking at Plaguebearer staff and torn about if Aco or Prim is a better vector for it

I lean toward Aco tho

[calm jay]

I feel like I looked at Prim's poison stuff and it's basically limited to... Thorn Totem and Poison Spear? But I didn't really look at Druid morphs either

[frank bramble]

If poison I would say acolyte too

Some hungering souls multihitting shit

[fossil wolf]

I dun broke my pc clearly lol..

[fervent lintel]

I had what I believe to be a solid idea that I posted in #suggestions to help the game survive/thrive. I'm curious what people here think about it since that channel isn't really for discussing the suggestions, merely posting them.

For reference: https://discordapp.com/channels/368953963267096586/1422222828601606185/1450981444024271042

[brittle hollow]

If you give points when gifting the game you are technically making them lose money. Unless you convert 1-1 the people you gift to MTX paid supporters… they will “technically” lose money.

Suggestion is good.. it’s just… lacking? I don’t know how to describe it

[fervent lintel]

That assumes a bunch of things, but no--"technically" the MTX don't cost them anything other than the initial development time. Any sales on those are pure profit.

[brittle hollow]

Well giving you points for free is costing them money.. since the only way to get them if I’m not mistaken is to buy them ?

[fervent lintel]

And even if someone gifted enough games to buy all the MTX--EHG made a ton of money off of that, and the players who received the game may either buy MTX and/or gift further games

It still drives income

[brittle hollow]

drives income purely from you buying the game and gifting it yes.

[fervent lintel]

As it stands now, the MTX are priced at a point where I can't justify them

[brittle hollow]

Giving you shop points means they are giving you money.

[fervent lintel]

No, because I can't sell those shop points for real money elsewhere

You're mistaking "money" with "value"

[brittle hollow]

NO BUT you could have bought the coins with real money

[fervent lintel]

And I won't

[brittle hollow]

And that’s fine.

[fervent lintel]

Unless they cut the cost of MTX

But they also need players

This drives interest for the game and income at the same time

[brittle hollow]

Your suggestion does not include anywhere that fact. You are asking for free stuff when you gift the game

[fervent lintel]

People who bought the game in beta were given points for the cost of the game. This is no different.

[brittle hollow]

That’s not what you are suggesting either

[fervent lintel]

No, I left that part a little more open-ended, because it may not be appropriate for it to be the same

[brittle hollow]

But instead you are suggesting they give you free stuff. Say you use the free stuff for the cosmetics you clearly don’t like.. are you buying more ?

[fervent lintel]

You're putting words in my mouth now. That's bad faith debate.

[night marten]

yeah. i gift game to monell, i get points. monell refunds the game.

[brittle hollow]

It’s not a bad faith debate. It’s an actual debate.

[night marten]

its incredibly too easy to scam

[fervent lintel]

Just forestall the points until the refund window closes

[fervent lintel]

No, that's now how you do it

[brittle hollow]

You may not have attributed a 1-1 value of dollar spent to a coin. But EHG clearly has a attributed a value, whatever that may be

[fervent lintel]

And that clearly isn't working for them

[brittle hollow]

By giving you the point they, at the minimum, lost the value of those coins. You may have gifted the game so they may have gained some

But it’s not necessarily net positive, and if it is, it doesn’t guarantee anything. I may not play the gifted game. I may be the average player, once and done..

I’m not going to go to the complete opposite side of the spectrum

[fervent lintel]

Whether you actually play or not, they made money on the sale of the game

And you always have the option to come back later

[brittle hollow]

As I said. Your suggestion is good. But it’s lacking… something.

[brittle hollow]

And they lost the value of the coins at the same time

[fervent lintel]

That value is only perceived, though.

It doesn't exist until a purchase is actually made

[brittle hollow]

It’s not perceived. People have been using that value to buy stuff.

People have made purchases based on that value which has been there for what? 5 years?

[fervent lintel]

It is only virtual value when comparing it in the sense that you are

[brittle hollow]

It is not a virtual value when there is an actual mechanic to BUY them for dollars.

It is an actual value that somebody decided exists.

[fervent lintel]

If people don't feel it's worth the cost, they don't buy it--it doesn't hold that value

Other people may buy it, it does have that value

It is perceived

[brittle hollow]

It is not perceived. Just like every other purchase in the history of purchases, some people buy it some people don’t.

[fervent lintel]

You're conflating "cost" and "value." They are not the same.

And what matters is actual dollars in EHG's revenue stream

Doesn't matter which channel it comes through

[brittle hollow]

And you are trying to devalue and de-evaluate every single purchase from every user that has bought MTX from the shop.

[fervent lintel]

They don't lose anything by giving you points for it

[brittle hollow]

They are losing the real dollar value of the coins.

[fervent lintel]

No, they aren't

[brittle hollow]

Yes they are. And they are also making a ton of people angry as well.

[fervent lintel]

That is wrong on both counts

[brittle hollow]

It is not. Why, when I bought the game for myself I didn’t get coins? Is my purchase worth less than the purchase I made for a friend ?

[fervent lintel]

Because that isn't how they did it at the time. They are allowed to change things.

And arguably, you should get points when you buy for yourself

[brittle hollow]

Why did I spend 30 dollars on MTX plus the 35 dollars of the game cost, I can now get 30 dollars of MTX for free if I gift the game to a friend ?

Ah they are allowed to change things. Arguably, YES you should. But that’s not the debate we are having

[fervent lintel]

This hasn't been decided. We don't know how many points is fair. I think 1:1 is, but EHG may not, yet still think the concept is good enough to do some.

If it's too little, people won't care. So there's risk in being too stingy about it.

However, I do think that one way or the other, points should be included in every purchase--because they need to incentivize the shop more

[brittle hollow]

That, I can agree 100%. That would be an excellent suggestion to stand by itself although people would probably riot… once again… “why didn’t I get points”

[fervent lintel]

They can absolutely retroactively grant people points if that's what it takes

[brittle hollow]

Nope..

[fervent lintel]

Easily

[brittle hollow]

I know they have the capability . It’s something they would not do and probably should not.

It’s still money lost for their perceived or non perceived value of the points.

[fervent lintel]

It depends if people really care about it being "fair" or not--and if EHG thinks it's worth it for the PR side of things

[brittle hollow]

Right. People would riot.

[fervent lintel]

Not if they get the points

And the positive PR can be worth it

[brittle hollow]

Eh

You are right on that but I’m sure people would riot

[fervent lintel]

I mean, most Live Service games don't even have to have their arms twisted over something like this. They hand out a bunch of free points right at the start just to get you to engage with the shop.

[brittle hollow]

In any case. Your suggestion is banking on the fact that people would gift the game, people would spend their points (so they would still need to fix their MTX since it’s generally agreed it sucks) and all that would be enough to generate interest from outsiders to come play

[fervent lintel]

And whether people buy points or copies, EHG gets much-needed revenue and expands the player base

[brittle hollow]

Right. Putting aside the issue of coins and what their value is for me vs for you…

[fervent lintel]

The "lost value" of the points is only through the lense of opportunity cost--but they don't actually lose any money

They just gain money

[brittle hollow]

Again, putting aside that issue. We clearly have a different stance and we will not agree.

[fervent lintel]

At minimum, it buys them some breathing room to figure out if other forms of paid dlc are truly necessary

[brittle hollow]

I don’t know how many people would go and spend 35 dollars to gift the game when they spent 35 dollars to buy the game… only to get some measly worthless coins for worthless shop

[fervent lintel]

That's the thing. It brings other people into the game too. Even if the MTX isn't worth much right now (according to most people), they at least have people to potentially play with.

[brittle hollow]

If the points were included in each purchase that’s a different suggestion, probably best for them. Which by the way if they did THAT, then their points would have no real value until realized in future purchases.

Currently people have to buy the coins to buy MTX. So there’s already an attributed value

WHEN/IF it changes then you can say the coins have no realized value until they are bought using real money

Does that make sense?

[fervent lintel]

They still have no value until purchased. They only have a cost.

[brittle hollow]

Right. But right now the only way to get them is to purchase them.

So they have a value

[stoic frigate]

♻️

[fervent lintel]

Not if people don't buy them, and right now, there are a bunch of reasons that people aren't:

• too expensive
• low quality
• low faith in the game's longevity
• dwindling player base to even show off to
  etc

They still have to fix the quality issue either way

[brittle hollow]

I gave you my thoughts on your suggestion and I have nothing further to contribute to it

[fervent lintel]

On the issue of quality, though, I would consider it if they were cheaper and there were more in the Skill Effects category (since the player models look like Play-Doh).

Look at the Sanguine Summon Skeleton, for example. They look terrible, but cost $5 USD.

Chain of Torment Heartseeker looks reasonably good, but it's $10 USD. That's way too much for just one skill.

[golden jacinth]

i mean i think there priced like other games i would not consider them to expensive

but being that the game is buy to play its diffrent ofcourse

[fervent lintel]

They are expensive in other games too, fwiw, but they don't justify it at all here

I do also think the era of overpriced MTX is on its way out, though. I think gamers are generally tired of feeling fleeced about it.

[golden jacinth]

yeah i can see it but the art deparment has mostly not made the most stunning gear sets and stuff

i mean the quality has to be a but higher in my opinion but its depending on the art style and who draws ofcourse

[fervent lintel]

And there are some things I actually do like in the shop. They are just unreasonably priced for what they are.

Opportunity cost plays a big part in it, especially on PC (because of Steam). I can pay $15 for a decent MTX, or I could get a great game on sale.

So the quality must be there to compete

Here's a good example: Eterra's Messenger Wings
Actually looks pretty good. Is it $15 good? Not as long as the player model looks like Gumby.

[autumn socket]

i'm just using a one button spell for my sorcerer fireball and shield ward gg

[balmy arrow]

[rugged zinc]

imo last epoch is on a downhill trajectory with the latest news breaking their promises they made in the kickstarter for the game

[quick magnet]

There's no accounting for taste in mtx. You just have to put out a spread of decent stuff

They're poorly manned is the main problem. But it runs so deep it's hard to right the ship.

At this point, the fact that folks would rather bemoan the direction of the game than talk about the game itself is more the problem. And EHG only have themselves to blame for that.

Also the way the game looks is still better than it used to be. Is it better than other options? No, but other options had way more staff and money too so that comparison is pretty bad, even if it's valid.

[shut quiver]

THIS 😂

I keep pointing this out every chance i get that people should talk about the game, the content of game or lack thereof, anything related to end game, grind and so on

Because ultimately thats what players care about, at least the majority of them

But for some reason the only topics I see in this thread which are obsessively discussed are how EHG broke a promise, how krafton sucks and how monetisation of game can be improved

[cyan sail]

i just want the game to grow and get bigger....i am an og to the game and have seen the great changes and horrible changes...im not here to offer my opinion just to say i want this game to get big and take off....we had Summit playing, shroud, asmon, peon....some huge names playing this game during release...and i doubt they were paid to do so bc lets be real...could they really have been paid anyway? two cents has been given

[fervent lintel]

"But for some reason..."
It's because there won't be any of the rest of the game to talk about if they don't right the ship.

I think it's worthwhile to offer EHG ideas that are realistic to that end, btw. We all want the game to survive because we enjoy it and wish to continue being able to. I can't tell you how much it bums me out that Firefall no longer exists, and it fell for roughly similar reasons (taken to further extremes).

[shut quiver]

I don't know what to say about how u specifically picked "But for some reason.." part which neither I nor anyone else cares about but completely disregarded what followed which was the point being made

[fervent lintel]

Because it sounded flippant and dismissive

[shut quiver]

[fervent lintel]

You're still doing it, and your point wasn't even a good one. People talk about that "one topic" because it's important. Simple as.

[quick magnet]

It's importance isn't the point. No one wants to talk about anything else anymore

[fervent lintel]

That's not even true. I was in here earlier and people were talking about builds.

[quick magnet]

It's also moot because it's not likely to change. This has just weeded out people that didn't really care for the game enough in the first place. Likely for good reason, really, but still. The general sentiment has decayed into...this mess.

[fervent lintel]

It's just that when people do want to talk about that issue, others want to cry that people are talking about it.

[quick magnet]

Yeah the handful of the same people. Look outside of the bubble and you'll see most folks are done with LE

[fervent lintel]

Only if that doesn't change

[quick magnet]

and that was happening before krafton got involved, let alone this paid class noise

[fervent lintel]

That's the whole point

[quick magnet]

No, actually, I'm pretty sure this one move the needle meaningfully anymore. Not after all the shit I've seen.

[fervent lintel]

If people take that attitude, then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy

[quick magnet]

I'm one person. Not people. People are already fed up

[fervent lintel]

We can try and maybe fail, or maybe not. But if we take on this fatalism, we will fail.

All we can do is try to talk to EHG about it

[quick magnet]

They have been trying but people don't have any patience left for their attempts. I've been nothing but patient but I'm not gonna pretend my outlook is positive.

[fervent lintel]

The most obvious things they need to do is walk back that paid classes stuff, but the realistic probability of that is extremely nebulous.

Aside from that, their art team needs to get crackin'. Otherwise paid content is the only option.

[quick magnet]

The only comeback I see is them sloughing off the old guard and cultivating a new playerbase somehow. How that happens is anyone's guess.

[fervent lintel]

That's part of what my suggestion aims at

Not necessarily ditching the old, but definitely cultivating new

[quick magnet]

Iunno, "the art team" hasn't been given any actionable feedback about the overall look of MTX

What they CAN do is target the builds that are actually being played with skill effects

[fervent lintel]

Until recently, I don't think they've really asked

[quick magnet]

They wouldn't have to if there were something cohesive to take from the complaints

[fervent lintel]

Which is wild considering how much their model depends on it

[shut quiver]

U see how u made the point that playerbase has been unhappy even before all of this and how that point was summarily disregarded? Thats what happens in this thread mostly nowadays 😂

[quick magnet]

The problem is that people are loud and petulant with no real interest in giving feedback about what they don't like about cosmetics so much as complaining

[fervent lintel]

Because it's just crying about what people want to talk about

[quick magnet]

Yeah, yeah it is

because ffs, the conversation is over

I wanted to enjoy the game, talk about the game, but there's like 10 people left to do that with and i'm god damn well tired

This is what's chased me off, me, dr3ad, my few friends that even cared about LE in the first place

This is a mess and spiraling about it isn't changing anything, nor is it helping

[fervent lintel]

Honestly, I do feel that. I've tried a few times in the last week to talk about other things, but nobody really does--even among the people here that complain about the issue most at hand.

[quick magnet]

Yes. That's the root of my frustration. The community is actually collapsing

I am not a doomer. I don't like beating this already skeletal horse. But this is the most visceral decline I've ever seen in a community I've been a part of and it's rough

[fervent lintel]

Well, it ain't my first rodeo, lol. I have seen games come back from this, but most don't.

And I think if they don't walk back the paid classes thing, it's hard to see how this one does

[shut quiver]

Idk about collapsing and all. I'd say the community just isnt active and hasnt been for a while

Now what that'll translate to in coming months especially if there's no update in March, thats another thing

[fervent lintel]

They need to push the next season out in Jan or Feb--under promise / over deliver

[shut quiver]

Heck! Im pretty sure I saw screenshots of other arpg games in this server but not of this game

That goes to show what kind of interest players have in replayability or retention of the game

But God forbid anyone wanna talk about this issue

[fervent lintel]

That's another thing. Other ARPGs aren't doing anything exciting for me right now.

POE2 doesn't exist to me. POE1 is still decent, but heavily depends on season. TLI same way. Most others are offline/single player.

Obviously, not everyone feels that way, but for those that do, LE's competition isn't super stiff atm.

[shut quiver]

U know time and time again u just amaze me with ur ability to cherry pick arguments 😂
I say there might be a problem with replayability or end game in THIS game, there might be a problem with player retention and u picked up "how does poe bother me? Well it doesn't"

[fervent lintel]

That's not what I was getting at

I was suggesting that there's a window of opportunity for them to do something

[shut quiver]

Well u werent getting at the point I was making either

[fervent lintel]

I mean, people are playing other games. What's there to get?

[shut quiver]

Think of it like this. For ppl to spend money on the game, the game has to be captivating enough for them to stay here for more than 2 weeks. Because if they know they're not gonna be here for more than that time frame, they wont spend money on anything, no matter how pretty it is

[fervent lintel]

I agree with your premise, but not your time window

Just because we see a ton of people are willing to spend on POE and only play the first couple weeks of a season

[lean berry]

I've spent thousands of dollars on PoE, haven't played the last two leagues because meh. I'll go back again when I'm feeling in the mood.

[fervent lintel]

But as for the premise, yes--if you do only plan to play a few weeks each season, do you want to buy for a game that only gets 1-2 seasons a year?

[lean berry]

LE has nothing that's actually worth spending money on. That's a business strategy issue.

[shut quiver]

Out of curiosity, would u say u were fairly active when u spent that kinda money?

[lean berry]

Of course. I wouldn't buy anything for PoE out of the blue, it would be because I'm actively playing. LE has certainly had a lot of time to course-correct their poor monetization strategy, though.

[shut quiver]

In terms of content I mean. Was it engaging enough to keep u active?

See thats what Im saying

[lean berry]

Let's not forget PoE's origin story. GGG achieved more with PoE using less people and resources. Just because they're big now and the game is much more vast doesn't negate the fact that PoE overcame bigger hurdles than LE has had to.

[fervent lintel]

I've seen the same patterns in TLI as well. It's part of why a good seasonal schedule is important to monetization

This relates back to the earlier debate over perceived value. The other guy was arguing the price tag was the value, but clearly it can't be or the model wouldn't have failed.

Value is what someone is willing to pay

[shut quiver]

Yup! But i was pointing out that the main focus was always content. Im not gonna pretend that they didn't try and insert monetisation options where they could but content was always there along with it

[fervent lintel]

Totally agree.

[shut quiver]

And they even had the justification to go along thats it a f2p game

[fervent lintel]

Their model allowed for that though

EHG made a promise that disallowed that

And now people are mad

[lean berry]

Right, "what about X or Y or Z" is irrelevant because these either 1) aren't the same customers complaining or 2) entered into a completely different monetary agreement

[fervent lintel]

EHG can't just focus on content when the model relies on the cosmetic MTX being good enough to sell--and they either aren't good enough, too expensive, or both

So they have to either break that promise, or get real creative with other monetization strategies

Because it didn't work

[lean berry]

The fact that the state of cosmetics was never revisited or reassessed, like nobody is turning their head and going "wow, our cosmetics suck and maybe we should do something about that" for years is a competence issue, not an "oh well, what can ya do" issue.

[fervent lintel]

Completely

[lean berry]

So it's really just negligence IMO and I hope that changes.

[fervent lintel]

I think they were forced to see that

[shut quiver]

I don't think anyone's complaining at all tbh. I think ppl have just accepted that LE is a decent game in which u can put in 60-80 hours and then move on

[fervent lintel]

It's a great game, if we're honest. I'm 900+ hours. We just need it to survive, lol

[lean berry]

It's a redeemable game, but they're under heightened scrutiny now so they have less wiggle room with all the recent loss in good faith.

[fervent lintel]

Great game, bad business model. Important to not confuse/conflate the two.

Also not a perfect game--that's important too

[lean berry]

I mean it's a good game regardless of the state it's left in. I still think it's easily worth the price tag for what you get. But now they can't really sell the game to new customers with the "we'll never have paid expansions or paid content ever" thing.

[fervent lintel]

Lots of ongoing, unaddressed bugs still floating around

[lean berry]

That said I'd still recommend the game to a new player with the understanding that yeah you might not be able to get as much content as you want out of it if you're expecting permanent free updates.

[fervent lintel]

If they just want to do the Grim Dawn thing, I'd be okay with that--just be honest about it.

[shut quiver]

I still think it's easily worth the price tag for what you get
Thats the point I was trying to make. This is what I think most players feel like and so once u're done with 'what u get' there's no reason to stick around

And that would have been okay if only it weren't a live service model 😂

[lean berry]

LE doesn't even have a good co-op experience and the only good thing about the live service is Merchant's Guild.

[fervent lintel]

I was indirectly agreeing with you--if you get even a portion of the hours I did for that price, you should be thrilled about it.

[lean berry]

Single-player with P2P co-op like Grim Dawn would've been fine IMO and also at least that way the game would also have a thriving mod community.

[fervent lintel]

I wonder if them trying to hold onto the Live Service model is naive at this point

[lean berry]

740 people online right now, it's probably not costing them too much in cloud compute. Their live service backend is probably fully scalable with automatic cluster resizing based on concurrent player counts.

[fervent lintel]

Or straight up vain

[fervent lintel]

But how many are buying MTX?

[lean berry]

None, of course. But at this point the big expense probably isn't the servers (like, not at this moment) but actual people.

Because yeah, I can't imagine there is any cashflow right now from new customers.

[fervent lintel]

Assuming nothing else changes in the short term, what would a season need to look like to turn things around?

[carmine smelt]

Probably for a lot of people yeah, though for many people even if you aren't a primarily "co-op player", online can still be a pretty important aspect of an ARPG imo.

For one it acts as a shared progression environment which allows you to compare your character to others on even footing giving a sort of relative sense of accomplishment, it also acts as a legitimacy checker (eg. this character was built by a person and not edited into existence), it also has leaderboards if you want to compete (or even if you don't, watching others compete), stronger community ties (eg. more people making and sharing builds or strategies, more people chatting in forums, reddit, discord, etc.), opportunistic co-op (eg. can someone help with this boss, or anyone want to join for prophecy procs), etc.

Also COF group play isn't bad tbh

[lean berry]

I wish I could say specifically with any confidence. If I knew, I would gladly give this information to EHG for free lol. Ultimately I think they're going to have to do more than simply meet the bare minimum expectations, obviously. The situation seems to have gone beyond criticisms against the shift in business strategy, the sentiment seems a bit like "breaking a promise to charge more for an unfinished game that's still very much early access in quality"

[fervent lintel]

I think that's a pretty fair characterization--at least from what I hear generally

The wild part to me is that it seems so unnecessary to break the promise--for now, at least

It's not clear they have exhausted all the other potentially viable options

But because people feel betrayed about it, many will deliberately not buy it just out of spite

If they play at all

[lean berry]

There's definitely value in having stuff like shared progression and leaderboards, just don't know if the choice for a live service is actually paying off for LE as opposed to the alternative. It's all just "what if" any way and for all we know the GD approach could've failed miserably for LE too. I'd have been okay with it, but yeah I can only speak for myself.

Personally would've loved to have seen a modding scene grow around a game like LE, a more modern game engine that's easier to mod (even the Unity IL2CPP scripting backend that LE uses is fairly easy to mod these days).

[carmine smelt]

GD probably only works because they keep their operating costs extremely low, it's a really small team with no real infrastructure costs

idk if LE is compatible with that model without some major changes

[fervent lintel]

Yeah, the issue is that modding precludes MTX, so something would need to be wildly different with the overall model

[lean berry]

I know the cost of infrastructure, especially cloud infrastructure. So I can somewhat confidently say LE is losing lots of money on infra during new seasons relative to revenue being generated.

[carmine smelt]

I also doubt that Krafton would be interested in going that route considering their investment

that ship probably sailed

[lean berry]

Yeah GD sustained in just selling the base game and content DLCs for years, and their model is already incompatible with LE's promise too because, well, content DLCs.

EHG made a bad promise in good faith and to a large extent they're being held accountable to those words and I find it difficult to blame customers for being upset about it.

[carmine smelt]

I don't know EHG finances but I would think the infrastructure costs during new seasons is probably not that large relative to wages which are paid all year

[lean berry]

Oh yeah I agree wages are and continue to be the biggest expense.

My hope is that Krafton doesn't try to rock the boat between now and the next couple of seasons.

I really hope Krafton gives EHG the chance to hire and put the work in before pulling any plugs.

Despite the blunders, I don't think this is an irredeemable situation at all.

[fervent lintel]

On a certain level, they are still (partially) trying to keep it. I remember not having a problem with paying for expansions for GD, Diablo, BL2, etc, so I might not with LE--but I also understand that on their side it might be too much hassle to try to manage player segments that have none/some/all of the available gameplay DLC, so optional paid classes actually looks like the lesser of two evils.

Between the two, general content DLC would feel way less optional than extra classes

[lean berry]

Yeah, it's hard for me to be angry at EHG for the whole thing because I actually do agree that it's naive to actually believe that promise, it was just infeasible for a live service that seemingly had no evidence of a sound monetization strategy in place. I could still tell they genuinely meant to keep that promise, and that's ultimately what really mattered to me so I hate to see them getting crucified by their own naivety and innocence as a game dev.

But also yeah I get people being upset.

[fervent lintel]

That's my general feeling as well, except that I think they still have other options available before needing to push the big red button.

[lean berry]

Most consumers seem to only care about the end product any way. Release something good and there's a lot that most players are willing to overlook or forget.

All of this outrage wouldn't have been as pronounced as it was if the people who were upset (which was most players, to be clear) actually thought LE was a great value for the money they spent.

[fervent lintel]

I think for the general game, they do. But I don't think they feel that way about the stuff to pay extra for.

[lean berry]

Yeah, that's an important distinction to clarify. I mean the perceived value of what they paid and what they're being asked to pay for. To be clear most players seem to agree that what they're being asked to pay for belongs in the base game considering (for example) the campaign is still unfinished.

[carmine smelt]

To be honest, I don't know why the unfinished campaign is brought up as much as it is, considering how often people want ways to make campaign even shorter, and avoid actually playing through it

[lean berry]

Basically actually finish the game, fix all of the longstanding bugs and make it actually feel like a polished, fully released 1.0 game before asking for more money.

[fervent lintel]

Yeah, speaking for myself, don't care about campaign

[lean berry]

It's the perception of the unfinished game that people latch on to.

Obviously still (after all these years) only having a single endgame system doesn't help with that perception either.

[carmine smelt]

So it seems like the end game is a higher priority than the campaign, no?

[shut quiver]

I did at times feel like campaign is a tad bit too long for base game only but on the other hand, its the end game grind that follows the campaign is something I dont find enjoyable

[lean berry]

If we're itemizing, then yeah 100%

[fervent lintel]

Would 100% take an Adventure Mode from D3 over LE's campaign

[lean berry]

I'd go for that. Wouldn't mind skipping the campaign and jumping straight into monos for leveling in a new season or something if that was made possible somehow.

But only because I dislike the campaign, not because I particularly like monos (I do, just not all the time)

[carmine smelt]

you basically can though

[fervent lintel]

"Basically" can and "actually" can are different--especially on a fresh season start when you aren't given any keys yet

And still stuck doing some of it because they foolishly tied skill points to it

And idol slots

[carmine smelt]

you only really need to go to like act 5 then you go straight into monos

its like 2 hours at the start of a season then you are in end game, once you get keys do your dungeon skips for passive / idol, and temp sanctum for act 9 + faction, with the dungeon skip those are like 2-3 minutes tops

it's pretty close to nothing

[fervent lintel]

It's a lot of hassle, and on a fresh start with no gear or anything, it's not that fast for me

Going into monos underleveled with no gear is no fun

[carmine smelt]

I mean even call it 4 hours at the start of a season, then subsequent characters have really powerful tools for progressing faster

[fervent lintel]

Even 4 hours is an exaggeration. Start is always a slow process for me.

[carmine smelt]

its pretty generous compared to games like PoE

[fervent lintel]

And I don't know any friends who do it that fast either

People make the same bloated arguments in POE as well--"Only takes like 4 hours" or w/e, but campaign is dull, grindy, and overly long

[carmine smelt]

how long DOES it take?

[fervent lintel]

Depends on the character

On a build I know well,not so long. I like to try stuff I haven't done on fresh starts, but often end up regretting it for exactly this reason.

[frosty ridge]

try doing it in poe

[carmine smelt]

I'm obviously biased but surely some amount of progression before "end game" begins is reasonable, no?

[fervent lintel]

I do and it sucks, lol

[fervent lintel]

Why?

[frosty ridge]

yep le is casual mode compared to that. thats not a bad thing

[carmine smelt]

What is the alternative, you begin monos at level 1?

[fervent lintel]

It's just the devs experience Sunk Cost fallacy

[frosty ridge]

bro its like 4 hours to mono in le compared to like 18 hours to maps in poe2

[fervent lintel]

POE2 doesn't exist to me

[frosty ridge]

like what

[fervent lintel]

Talking about the good POE

[frosty ridge]

i remember doing monos on smite paladin at lvl 24

[fervent lintel]

With gear, ya

[frosty ridge]

no

just healing hands smite paladin

if you're complaning about making an alt in le where they actually have tech to get your alt leveled, you need to play like minesweeper or something

[fervent lintel]

I'm talking about not wanting to do the campaign

Live Service games in particular don't need them

[carmine smelt]

The thing about LE is that the first time you do campaign it takes a long time, you don't know what you are doing, this is the "campaign experience". Then as you gain experience it gets significantly quicker, and there are tools to make it even quicker. End game "unlocks" at level 15 or whatever you are when you get to End of Time.

Unlike PoE where you still need to go through the full campaign and get all the passives / stats specifically, LE has alternative routes and has more passive rewards opportunities than the maximum meaning you don't need to do them all.

I am a pretty bad leveler compared to people who actually practice it and it's still around 2 hours to end game for me with passives and whatnot. Empowered monos in well under 8 hours with some gear set up, faction unlocked, etc.

One improvement I would love to see is passive / idols as rewards for completing timelines to completely remove the need for campaign quests, and maybe some better indicators to campaign shortcuts to reduce the need to memorize stuff.

[fervent lintel]

I don't consider the first time you enter EOT "endgame"

A couple hours to reach that, sure

[carmine smelt]

No dude, I'm like level 50 actually doing monos in 2 hours

entering EOT isn't end game for sure, I said that's when it "unlocks"

if its an alt you can probably just start doing it

[fervent lintel]

Yeah, that depends on the build

[carmine smelt]

sure thats fair, a lot of skills just suck for leveling

but you can also mastery respec now, and skill respec is fairly easy, changing gear early on is fairly easy, etc.

[fervent lintel]

But that's what I was talking about earlier--punished for trying new builds, forced into these "leveling" builds just because campaign is an unnecessary/arbitrary chore

[carmine smelt]

even if you could just start doing monos immediately it would be the same problem

some builds require certain items to get started, some builds lack base damage so they don't work until you get some on gear, some skills need certain passives you don't get until level 50+, some skills need full skill bar unlock, or 20+ nodes allocated etc.

if anything it sounds more like a complaint about balance

[fervent lintel]

No, I just don't like being forced to do the extra quests and stuff

[carmine smelt]

that I agree with lmao

[fervent lintel]

I just want to start a character, start leveling, not worry about that other stuff

[carmine smelt]

So you wouldn't mind campaign if you could just go from zone to zone without talking to NPCs or getting quest items or whatever

[fervent lintel]

Not have to go out of my way for extra passives or idol slots, or anything else

The problem with campaign is that it is useless progression

Once you're ready for monos, you don't want to think about campaign anymore

I don't want to think about it at all

Hence why D3's Adventure Mode was so brilliant

[carmine smelt]

yeah that's why I said it would be nice if timeline completions granted idol and passives

then you don't need to worry if you missed stuff earlier

[fervent lintel]

Yeah

[willow sentinel]

Good morning travelers

[gritty helm]

morning

[muted cape]

I wish it was morning for me!

[south moat]

Good morning ☕

[scenic fog]

Good morning!

[barren mural]

morning....

[severe socket]

o/

[dusk tinsel]

Hello my favorite ARPG fellas

[barren mural]

i dont enter the game. server error.... any guys in game? or only me?

[severe socket]

Are you using any sort of VPN connection, by any chance?

And what's your region/server?

[barren mural]

i dont use vpn or any. i did repair files again same....

[severe socket]

What's your region/server?

[barren mural]

eyü

EU

other games working but just LE doesnt work

[severe socket]

What's the error code/message?

[barren mural]

lost Connection - when entering end of time

i have internet already.. im online:)

i tryed diablo 3 poe and other games and working so good

just LE lost connection

any DEV here?

you lost connection the game server.

lol i changed region eu to US

its working

EU servers faill

[severe socket]

Might want to send a bug report via F8.

With Crash/Disconnect as the report category.

[barren mural]

ty bro

again same . EU servers GG....

i sent report. let see

[hoary shard]

What is the different of block mitigation and block efectiveness? The describtion on both say "the percentage by which damage is reduced when you block a hit" on both

[willow sentinel]

Do you have an exemple with both wording in game?

You can se'd screenshot in #❔┃ask-the-community

[balmy arrow]

[primal abyss]

[severe socket]

Hiya Van.

How're things on your end so far?

[primal abyss]

Heyas there~!

So far so good. Hope you're doing well today 🙂

[barren mural]

are u live in game now?

[vernal nymph]

look at this guy living way off in the future like he didn't say good morning at 12am

[night marten]

timezones are a thing

[primal abyss]

Could you imagine them not being a thing? Everyone was just on the exact same time... would be wild.

[vernal nymph]

yeah everyone knows the sun gets eaten by the ocean every night and spit back up on the other side of the sky in the morning

[scenic fog]

Everyone knows the Earth is just God's coin, flipping eternally in the void.

[obtuse bay]

[balmy arrow]

[night marten]

it'd be so much easier to communicate.

if everyone just used gmc time or w/e

like sure my day might start at 1am...but the actual time on the clock doesnt really matter

long as the sun is up

[primal abyss]

Very much so.

[south moat]

Happy friday

[primal abyss]

nub from the future 👋 Happy Thursday and Friday depending... 😆

[south moat]

oh wait
right it's not friday yet

Turns out that messed up sleep schedule & stuff messes up your sense of time

[simple bison]

Yeah but would kinda suck for when you travel and have to learn that 1 am is now lunch time

Kinda like how December is in summer for some

[south moat]

Yeah
And if you wanted to plan stuff with people from other places you'd still need to think "Okay so 1am is... it's in the middle of the night for them while it's midday for me so probably can't do that"

[primal abyss]

wow nub.. you didn't take that sleep..it took you haha

[night marten]

🤷‍♂️ if hungry, eat. simple

[south moat]

It sure did

[main frigate]

Do a reminder happen on threads in #suggestions if threads get updates?

I don't see anything here

[simple bison]

What do you mean by that? Which threads?

[vernal nymph]

that's still pretty much how it is already lol. having friends globally is pretty normal nowadays

[primal abyss]

Could you elaborate on this a little bit more for me, please?

[main frigate]

ok so no reminders

[main frigate]

sent the link by modmail

The art team of EHG will know what I mean by these projects because I'm sure these are jobs they're doing

[primal abyss]

Aah. Okie~ Thank yoooou

[main frigate]

Thank you, messenger Van

[turbid silo]

Good day folks!

How we doing today

[severe socket]

o/

[main frigate]

As usual, waiting meet the team come back

But I'm trapped in snow and meet the team is in a house 1000km away 🤔

[balmy arrow]

[main frigate]

The epoch is lost, it's the only device can help me reduce the distance. Wick is the only man know where lost epoch is.

[primal abyss]

Welcome Derrick

Wick has probably hidden the Epoch again

[severe socket]

So still no rest for the Wicked, huh...

[main frigate]

: 🥴

[severe socket]

CHOO CHOO

[honest belfry]

"Again" implies I ever stopped doing it in the first place.

[fleet moth]

just add a campaign skip and ill pay for dlcs

[brittle hollow]

#suggestions I guess

[main frigate]

Yes I think Van is right at this time

I want to know Kwan's story so much

When can I meet with Kwan?

Ross and Holly's story is still on the way too

If you can. Van's story is welcomed

... Single member per month is pretty slow. I want double stories.

[primal abyss]

Kirra wants it all!

[zinc blaze]

[main frigate]

hard to give orders...

No idea when Wick can do interviews with everyone in EHG

I think I'm 30 or older in that time

Flowers are dead in that time too

maybe members be interviewed just half of them in that time

[muted cape]

Yo when ram gonna go down smh I want 64gigs grrr. Need to upgrade comp

Im finally going to get screen wide 4k reso on a third monitor for last epog

[inner finch]

Cya in 2028

[thick lotus]

[vapid stream]

[obtuse bay]

[zinc blaze]

[barren mural]

FINALLY 38.006 corruption yay

[inner mango]

man. only 03/26 next cycle

[barren mural]

so?

[muted cape]

[zinc blaze]

[crimson pebble]

Noticing the game's pretty quiet, is it because people are waiting on the next season to drop to hop back in?

[fervent lintel]

Alright, let's see if I'm allowed to play LE today, or if it's going to keep crashing.

[fervent lintel]

No, it's because of some drama that EHG foolishly dropped right before going on holiday

[main frigate]

Remain 212000 members are here

[crimson pebble]

Oh right, the dlc problem, got it. Thanks

[lean berry]

It's kinda both, the DLC issue and the long time until the next season.

Pretty normal to have a non-existing playerbase during off season periods.

[muted cape]

Yep same in the other arpgs. in the beginning they had long wait times too until years after release then it was smooth as 🧈

[main frigate]

The ridiculous thing is both of GGG and EHG just left art team can be isolated from the gameplay chaos. Nothing from their art teams can be complaint but gameplay... Sigh

[muted cape]

Poe one season 3 to season 4 was 5 month wait time for example, totally normal

Yeah ehg art is top tier quality in my opinion. They can take art you think of in your brain and make it exact reality

[main frigate]

🤔 ? That's basic requirement for them

[muted cape]

No, it's just common

Well, for poe, diablo4, and le that is. I dont like paid expansions in video games personally. I like poe and le style updates.

Ofc it's preference, many options now. Got 5 major arpgs to play lol

[main frigate]

I dislike anything paid after I paid for the game

[fervent lintel]

Yeah, unfortunately that isn't how Live Service ARPGs are modeled. EHG tried, but it failed.

[low cradle]

I just hope we don't have release rogue or d4 paid expansion classes over again.

They already tend to release things strong may be double so with monetary incentive

[fervent lintel]

I mean, you can do the same thing for a right reason and a wrong reason.
You release a paid class that is strong:

• It's because they want to push sales
• It's because people would feel ripped off if it wasn't

Take your pick.

[fervent lintel]

I will say this about it:
When I bought the Necro for D3, I wasn't evaluating it as a comparison to the other classes or their relative power. I was interested in the various builds it had available and if those felt fun. I might have noticed the power issue if it was severely lacking, but I didn't notice because it seemed fine. Was it OP? I have no idea. Was it weak? Nope.

It was fun, though.

[stoic frigate]

D3's only competitive aspect is time based leaderboards, LE has a competitive player-based market aspect to it that makes glaring gaps in build strength more obvious (faster/more consistent farm = more money)

[fervent lintel]

If they cared about that so much, Sentinel would be getting lots of nerfs, lol

[stoic frigate]

I know, I think it should. Barring maybe FG because it isn't much of an outlier outside of EHP.

Falconer also needs substantial nerfing still, they can still take down Uber Abby on shoe string gear after barely 10 hours of the season being out.

[south moat]

morning 🥱

[fervent lintel]

I'd rather they not, tbh--I'm just saying that a class doesn't need to be OP. It just can't be weak.

[stoic frigate]

I don't like balance being an absokute shitshow, in any game I play.
I criticize huge outliers in everything, because I enjoy having at least relatively equal options to pick from.

[fervent lintel]

I don't mind the outliers when they are positive. It is when they are unsufficient that they bother me.

D2 being a great example: Until you start getting high runes and can assemble certain runewords, there aren't that many builds that are Hell-viable at a comfortable pace. Given how rare those runes are, I always saw this as the most glaring flaw in that game's balance. The solutions are either to reduce the rarity of some of those runes, or up the base power of many of the builds that otherwise depend on them. Some of it is just that immunities were always a bad design decision, so undoing that could have solved a lot by itself.

[stoic frigate]

I mean

I think D2 is a dogshit game, so

[fervent lintel]

It's not, but it has bad balance

[stoic frigate]

Matter of opinion. To me, it's just not good. Every aspect of it is littered with flaws and the only real excuse for it is "it was 2000 so they didn't have much to iterate on"

[fervent lintel]

Nah, I still enjoy it these days. It isn't just nostalgia. It offers some things that not many games in the genre does, so I still see appeal in it.

[stoic frigate]

I disagree, but whatever

[fervent lintel]

That's fine. My point was just that it has a lot of under-served builds because immunities destroy the balance that might otherwise exist, so the only way to make them viable is to overcompensate with high runewords.

Since LE doesn't have immunities, it doesn't have that issue. Balance isn't exactly "simple," but the nobs, levers, and pulleys available to tweak it are easier to understand and more numerous to access.

If a class build is underperforming, it shouldn't be hard to fix it.

I would even say it's okay to overbuff, then dial back if needed

[vernal nymph]

I would say D2 was good for its time but has aged very poorly compared to the modern ARPG landscape

ProjectD2 has been pretty fun to jump in occasionally

[fervent lintel]

I was genuinely surprised they elected to keep immunities and give us half-baked Sunders instead.

[vernal nymph]

yeah that was certainly a choice

but to the point of nerf/buff, nerfs are extremely important in maintaining a healthy balance. if you take the route of exclusively buffing the under-performers, then you end up with the absurd scaling that D3 had

[fervent lintel]

At minimum I would have removed Phys immunes. Preferably all, but at least that.

That's only because the buffing was absurd

And I'm not saying never nerf stuff, but it should be done cautiously, and reluctantly

Otherwise you end up with the problem so many other games do (like POE), where you "balance" all the fun out of the game.

[iron halo]

I think most gamers are manbabies when it comes to nerfs

[stoic frigate]

That is a hilarious take

[vernal nymph]

yeah, I disagree with that

[stoic frigate]

And my cue that this is a worthless discussion

[iron halo]

Just suck it up and get nerfed, dweeb

[vernal nymph]

nerfs always feel worse than buffs but they're incredibly important in keeping things level

[iron halo]

Nerf only feels worse because you have tasted sin

[fervent lintel]

And blocked

[iron halo]

You are addicted to high numbers

Block me all you want, you know that God is judging your fallen theorycrafts

[fervent lintel]

For egregious outliers, sure. Not much in LE strikes me that way though.

That does mean not nothing

[vernal nymph]

honestly anything that easily flies past 1000c I would consider an outlier. not just things that can get there and beyond eventually, but the things that can sneeze and be there

or anything that can delete uberoth in a few seconds without a ton of investment. BearQuake is a good example of that

[fervent lintel]

I mean, 1000c is an arbitrary metric, and any number will be, but if the devs say they want to choose a target number as the point of reference for balance, I'm okay with that

[vernal nymph]

anything in corruption would be since it scales infinitely

[fervent lintel]

If the standard is "you should have reasonably good gear to reach x# corruption," and they are consistent about it, that would be fair enough

[vernal nymph]

like for my random jank builds, I set Normal Abby and 500c as my success metric

[vernal nymph]

yeah i agree

[fervent lintel]

The issue I often have with game devs who are nerf-happy is that there is no standard. It's often "vibes" or knee-jerk to some fotm thing. I hate that approach.

See POE again

[vernal nymph]

i think that's mostly because they don't publicly put forward what their metrics are

[fervent lintel]

I don't believe they have any

[vernal nymph]

just "This is an outlier and needs something done"

[fervent lintel]

I think it's driven by player usage, not player progress in relation to effort

So if you look up some stuff on poe.ninja, there's a good chance the most popular stuff sees nerfs in the next season or two

It doesn't always happen, but I would feel safe betting on it

The game used to have a lot more viability during progression--now you pretty much need to pre-assemble all the pieces for certain things to work right, or they just aren't strong enough

It feels gross to play that way

The big shift toward this issue happened when they deliberately pulled power out of the skill gems to try to focus more on item scaling--in a game with horrendous RNG 🤮

And it's now one of the most imbalanced messes of any ARPG

Not in any fun way either

[glass cove]

im doing level 100 at 100 corruption...what do i need to do to get higher corruption?

[vernal nymph]

reset the timeline with a shade of orobyss

go far out in the web, you'll eventually see a node that will reset it and add corruption

just keep doing that to keep climbing corruption

[fervent lintel]

You may want to look at a timeline that has an item you want to target for farming and focus on doing it there as well

[glass cove]

thanks

ive complete 100 levle quest (900 stability) i see that mentions orobyss...is that waht you mean by reset timeline with orobyss?

ssorry if iasking dumb questions....ive hit 91....farthest ive ever gotten n the game

never did levle 100/100 corrupton till now

[fervent lintel]

Despite a lot of hours in the game, I seldom take characters very far into corruption, personally. That's just not the interesting part of the game for me. I have way more fun just exploring various builds in general.

[scenic fog]

Being stuck on a build for so long is kinda boring in a way, I feel exactly the same way.

[steel mesa]

When it comes to LE I'm the same way, it's pretty easy to get a build going compared to PoE and grinding corruption is boring

[steel mesa]

This is what makes PoE2 campaign feel so bad imo, the rng of getting a good weapon upgrade makes or breaks how your experience feels.

[fervent lintel]

LE's leveling uniques are also way more enabling than POE's

[steel mesa]

Yep! Especially on a second character

[scenic fog]

Some of the most satisfying gameplay I have is leveling a new character twinked out the wazoo.

[shut quiver]

Lol

[gritty helm]

I think balance wise 1k and Uber Aberroth clear times are decent starting points

I'm more in the "buff the rest" camp, but there likely are some outliers that should be nerfed

yk, good old gaussian curve

[fervent lintel]

Use either. Use both. Just use a standard. 🙂

[gritty helm]

Yeah, and I think I like when balance accidents are broken beyond belief builds rather than buffed build being still unplayable

[fervent lintel]

I'm not sure what you mean

[gritty helm]

I prefer when buffed builds are overpowered, than underpowered

[fervent lintel]

I mean, it is fun to play OP stuff sometimes, but that's usually the stuff people cry to get nerfed. I just want maximum variety and viability among builds.

[steel mesa]

idc if some things are OP, it's only when something is like 100x stronger than everything else or when a build requires no effort to get a lot of power when other builds need lots of gear. I think it's fine for builds to be powerful once you've gotten god tier gear.

[obtuse bay]

[primal abyss]

[south moat]

Hello there Van

[primal abyss]

Heyas nub

Hope you and everyone are well

Happy Friday, for real this time

[south moat]

Happy Friday to you too
And I'm good. a bit annoyed at PoE2 but you know how it is
Hope you're having a nice day so far

[primal abyss]

So far so good...and yeah PoE2 can be PoE2 I get it hahaha

[balmy arrow]

[primal abyss]

[obtuse bay]

[chrome basalt]

Why won't it just show me which blessings come from which monolith timeline, it's just irritating being forced to use a website to try and work out where things come from to know which ones I want to farm. Especially when they are RNG from completing them too. It's not like you can just do them all once and know after that. You still have to google them for some reason...

[barren mural]

u can see in end of time. just click Npc ...

[chrome basalt]

no you cant

[barren mural]

u can

[chrome basalt]

He doesn't show you undiscovered ones is exactly my point I am looking at him right now

you need to refarm the monlith until it reveals them all by having received them all

[barren mural]

undiscovered yea just play and discover then.

[chrome basalt]

god you are annoying

[barren mural]

kill the harbingers

[primal abyss]

This is something I'd 100% say throw in our #suggestions area!

Cannot promise it is something that is going to happen but putting it there allows us to take it and put this infront of the team

[chrome basalt]

It's just frustrating, as I really need to focus ones that benefit me greatly first to push harder to farm better gear to get stronger but I get these useless ones constantly even just getting rid of the annoying quest spam on the side of the screen first for every monlith lol

And I remember how mandatory I considered the crit avoidance one from the dragon but not sure that one even exists anymore but I've gone armour and crit reduction instead this time anyway

[brittle hollow]

I think crit avoidance was reworked to include dodge as the affix. So it’s crit avoidance and dodge rating. It still exists as a blessing as well.

[fervent lintel]

Honestly wish they'd rework it so the value is what you farm for by clearing them repeatedly, but it lets you choose whichever bonus you want from a complete list.

Among the eligible ones for that timeline, that is

[chrome basalt]

yeah that is a kind of cool idea just letting us pick from all but increase the amplitude of the bonus by refarming it to get it higher, I like that idea a lot lol

[primal abyss]

🤔

You already know what I'm going to suggest

Especially if these are neat ideas too

[severe socket]

Hiya Van.

Question for you, btw: what kind of music do you prefer?

I mean, genres, styles, whatever.

[primal abyss]

That's really hard because I listen to a wide variety

[severe socket]

Could I drop a link for you? Just to share the mood. 🙂

[primal abyss]

That or a title and artist... you know just in case I want to track down more songs

Wondering if it's something I've heard before or not 😆

[chrome basalt]

suggestions just deletes my suggestions for some reason even if I try to type them nicely and I can't be bothered trying to type them again, that's definitely the 2nd one I had deleted now lol.

[shut quiver]

Im gonna throw a suggestion for ur suggestion. Ask chatgpt to write a suggestion with your idea and copy paste it here 😂

[fervent lintel]

Yeah the format bot is a pain

[primal abyss]

It's very selective of the format when inputting. What do you have? mind copy/pasta real quick? The fields do have a minimum requirement

Title:
Suggestion:

[fervent lintel]

Should suggest they remove the format bot 😏

[primal abyss]

I dare you to make that a suggestion

[fervent lintel]

In fact, that channel should probably just be threaded so there's also a place to discuss them

[shut quiver]

Yeah that would be a bad idea

[primal abyss]

I'll say this, we are currently discussing these threads so they might change slightly

[fervent lintel]

Explain

[shut quiver]

I've said this over and over and i'll say it again. Very few ppl speak up about the state of the game as it is about what they want/need

[fervent lintel]

Number of people has nothing to do with organizing the ones that do come through

[shut quiver]

See this! I didnt even finish what I was saying and u jumped in with selective thoughts

[fervent lintel]

You didn't say you weren't finished. It wasn't selective.

I responded to what you said

You just like to be contrarian though

Seldom make good points

[shut quiver]

Now imagine someone who'll come here with a suggestion and ppl jump in on shutting the person down with the excuse of "discussion". They just wont bother speaking up ever again to avoid the crazies

[fervent lintel]

And now trying to sling an ad hominem to hide behind it

Those discussions would actually help to flesh out the merits of a suggestion

People shouldn't be discouraged by that

[primal abyss]

Now folks, I enjoy discussions regarding things but just remain to keep it chill. The purpose of these threads is to have a place where your feedback can be shared without the fear of having others react to it. One thing is for sure, not everyone plays LE the same way so it is only natural to expect various perspectives. It's on us to take what we have, organize it and present it to the team.

By react I mean, turning it into a back and forth. You can react to things via emoji in the threads now

[shut quiver]

But that would be considered as "flippant and dismissive"

[fervent lintel]

Now trying to take a quote out of context to put words in my mouth. Gfys

[night marten]

thats enough

[primal abyss]

What it comes down to is this: If you have any sort of feedback or suggestions, place them in either #feedback & #suggestions. The team will see it.

At this point, the conversation has come to an end.

[simple bison]

It actually used to be in thread format but because of discord thread limitations it wasn't sustainable

[shut quiver]

I remember that and given that we are off season it might even work currently

[simple bison]

Changing something like that every few months is also not sustainable considering they're scraping the channel to compile all the posts

Imo having it be a normal channel like it is currently is optimal but instead of just deleting the wrongfully formatted posts it could delete them and then send a copy back as a private message so you can copy it and reformat to repost. Not sure if or how that'd be doable with bots though, I don't know much about discord bots personally.

[reef dock]

This should be enforced using Discord modals w/ a bot command for submission. That way people don't have to discover they didn't fit the format after the bot has already deleted what they wrote. It's not a great UX. API Docs: https://discord.com/developers/docs/components/using-modal-components

[primal abyss]

Thanks for sharing this. Yeah, like I said we're discussing some things with the current threads to ensure it less of a headache, if possible 😆

[reef dock]

I'd also be happy to write a quick bot for it if EHG can host it. I'm a software engineer by trade and have written a few discord bots before

[primal abyss]

Thank you for that offer, kidpid! Means alot. Will def keep that noted 😆

[chrome basalt]

If you get Experimental Armor applies to Damage over Time from exiled mage dropped gloves, can you transfer it onto unique gloves using, was it the cool snake dungeon machine with legendary potential? Do experimental affixes from items work in that machine?

[willow sentinel]

Yes

[chrome basalt]

Thanks!

[south moat]

As long as there's exalted mod on the gloves

[honest belfry]

Good morning all!

[chrome basalt]

Can the experimental affixes be exalted themselves? I haven't been paying too much attention to that yet, but you are saying it needs one exalted to use that machine at all are you? I guess I want the best I can get anyway since its probably going to do the wrong ones lol

Good morning!

[south moat]

Gm Wick

[south moat]

Yes, they can drop as exalted affix
exalted is just tier 6 or 7 after all

[primal abyss]

Goood morning, Wick!

[honest belfry]

How are you all today?

[primal abyss]

Peachy! You? Got anything cooking? 👀

[honest belfry]

Yeah actually. I'm planning a holiday party for tomorrow and i turned my house into an escape room.

[primal abyss]

So what happens if someone can't escape? Will they just be stuck there?

[honest belfry]

haha obviously not.

[primal abyss]

Oh dang. That would've been an entertaining story to hear.

[chrome basalt]

Its not about actually being trapped, it's about the implication

[primal abyss]

Reminds me of a movie called "Dave made a Maze"

[chrome basalt]

is that the cardboard box one?

[primal abyss]

Yes, it is

[chrome basalt]

That was really good I remember it lol

[primal abyss]

It was a fun watch lol

[honest belfry]

I'll have to watch it.

[round lake]

Buying poe supporter packs to buy new cool mtxes 😌 then i will play LE for a moment to progress my hc char then smash poe all night with wife until morning.

[obtuse bay]

I am excited for new season MTXes

and imagine If we had druid mtxs...

spriggan, swarmblade, werebear... 🫦

jealous of lich's death reaper skin...

[reef dock]

I'm excited for the rogue changes, though I'm bummed it won't be until march

[chrome basalt]

Eagle Wing 1h axe feels like it doesn't drop properly to me or something. I also remember feeling this way when I played last time lol

[royal sapphire]

So I guess we aren't getting any mid season event or a reset?

[obtuse bay]

high possibility for events

but we don't know when

[static plover]

can anyone help me locate the last epoch folder to delete the cosmetic stuff? im in local app but dont see last epoch

[obtuse bay]

do you mean mtx?

[static plover]

check first pinned message, this is regarding a solution for those whose cosmetics are getting resetted upon logging out

kk found

[obtuse bay]

oh I see

muffin replied

[round lake]

here? they will be like poor 2011 power rangers with metal bends like plastic and 2$ temu fur xd

i wish they employee someone who know basic of art to make better skins and bone/body proportions to do actual skins and not the mutated hurted mtx'es like wolf hat = flat york with no shape like dried apple .

[primal abyss]

All good then?

[static plover]

had to enable hidden folders on my file explorer to show appdata/local, also accessed via terminal

will confirm if my cosmetics are staying on after logging out

[round lake]

whats with the mtx issue now? it's something new?

[static plover]

not a groundbreaking issue but a huge nuisance, apperance gear resets after logging out

[main frigate]

Van, the announcement mean EHG's sea stable will be cut because all staff is on holiday?

EHG's stable = EHG's members online here.

[static plover]

deleting the two files on the local low resolved the cosmetic issue, thank you. Can you also pin my message regarding hidden folders to help those having trouble locating their localapp folders

[zinc blaze]

I'd imagine EHG fellas would pop in from time to time while on holiday

[obtuse bay]

[primal abyss]

Good to hear. It's currently pinned via Muffin but we will keep an eye out~

There will be members online throughout holidays as well as folks checking in so that won't give any of you an excuse to act up

[honest belfry]

We usually do. We may be off, but we still check in from time to time.

[zinc blaze]

got any fancy foods your making for the holidays Mr Wick?

[final geode]

sup lads

me and my friend are considering buying last epoch and we have classes in mind we want to play

but we wont get it if they are payed,

payed classes as i just read the recent reviews

is void knight and spell blade payed classes?

[lean berry]

Nope, there are no paid classes right now.

I'll be completely up front with you. I think the Steam reviews are justified based on the promises the dev made to those players at the time. But if you're buying the game for what it is right now then I will just say I think the game is 100% worth the $28 (discount) price tag. There are no paid classes yet, those are coming much later.

[final geode]

alright sick

answers my question ^^

game looks sick on trailer

[lean berry]

It's a good ARPG, absolutely.

[primal abyss]

I do wish every single one of you have an amazing holiday, though. This community has been pretty awesome since joining EHG. Give yourselves a pat on the back and an extra sweet treat this weekend.

[zinc blaze]

no u

[glacial crow]

yeah ever since the whole thing blew up no one really gave a significant update since then

every other game is giving out updates, except u guys youre promising a million things and delivering nothing

youre going to have to work overtime, like a slave, or youre not going to make it. grim dawn is going to beat u with new expansion. poe2 i dont even to mention, and even the horrible d4 is stepping up their gayme

you gave this cute roadmap, but when you deliver is a story of its own

[stark frost]

The frustration is understandable, but things take time.

If you're going to compare it to other games, they also postponed and underdelivered on promises. The point is, it's really difficult to release a good product, and even more difficult to set the right expectations and deadlines.

[glacial crow]

if d4 is stepping up their game, you know you have to step up yours, seriously. because d4 is the lowest of the low, and their now beating u

there is no excuse

now listen to me, ive been in the industry very long

drop the paid class crap and apply the grim dawn d2r model of selling expansions

although its not even just that, every industry does, and if youre trying to be special youre failing

even one of the long standing models guild wars 2 is doing it. and theyre one of the biggest names around

[stark frost]

Then you also know this thing called Crunch time is very real and ideally is avoided altogether. You can't just flip a switch and produce a product and magically meet your deadlines and roadmaps; it's difficult.

[primal abyss]

Hello and welcome, Erane.

While we can understand the frustration, the team is hard at work at not only gathering feedback but also remaining transparent.

While we appreciate the feedback, we invite you to also provide it in the #feedback thread so we can pass it to the team. Providing constructive feedback and suggestions will always be accepted. This will only help aid us in moving forward. If you have any suggestions, please drop them in #suggestions. Be sure to use the proper format when doing so.

With everyone's help, some patience & understanding, we can aim to make sure Last Epoch the experience we want to offer and worth your time. There is also a survey in regards to Community Engagement that I would like to share if you've not seen it already. It can be found here: https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/eleventh-hour-games-community-engagement. By providing more engagement to you, we hope to also provide more ways to voice what you want us to bring to you in 2026 and beyond. You'll have until the 23rd to vote so don't delay!

In the meantime, feel free to stay up to date with the latest by following the #news channel as well as keeping an eye on our official forums. Remember to abide by the [rules found here.](#rules message)

[inner finch]

They did, by giving us a proper roadmap.

Also nothing is here to beat anything. If the game supplies content - we will provide attendance. Nobody is forcing me to pick one ARPG at a time

[lean berry]

I gotta admit, the ARPG landscape has been extremely competitive the past couple years. Words are easy, but I understand EHG is in a very difficult position.

[glacial crow]

for now last epoch is just a class fantasy made proper, but nothing more. if i wanted sometihng more i'd go to grim dawn, poe or even d4 (yes d4 has more to offer right now to your shame)

[lean berry]

The sudden explosion of the ARPG market has been a wild ride.

D4 still has a higher upfront price than LE, even when D4 does their 50% discounts.

[inner finch]

The deal is always binary in my books. I don't believe in sensationalizing and categorizing the situation into neat brackets. If game good and fun and content is fresh = i play

[lean berry]

That said, D4 is also more polished.

[glacial crow]

i despise d4, and im not joking. but somehow it has more to offer right now than your pipe dream.

d2r remodded is the best arpg right now

go look it up

[inner finch]

The reason different ARPGs can coexist, is that they offer different experiences for different players

[lean berry]

I'm sure it's great, but nobody actually plays it.

[inner finch]

I would vote to not force each one I play to turn into the one i like the most

I like them very different, very much

Wait, i just realized something....

man, i almost fell for it again

[quick magnet]

If nobody was playing anything people wouldn't talk about them. That's not really any kind of rebuttal

D4 is absolutely being played by thousands of people, myself included.

[lean berry]

Not D4, D2R Remodded.

[quick magnet]

Same difference

[lean berry]

D2R Remodded isn't even in the same playerbase league as LE

It's basically a non-existent product.

So it has no actual relevance to LE's success.

[quick magnet]

Hell, it's D2R, why would anyone expect "player numbers lmao"

[glacial crow]

i hate blizzard with a pashion, and D4 is the rot to my soul, and yet somehow it delivers more than LE, thats why im warning you

[quick magnet]

You're also sort of coming off as indignant for no reason.

[lean berry]

I get that D2R Remodded is great and all, but it contributes nothing to the wider discussion of ARPGs.

And in particular it contributes nothing to LE's situation.

[glacial crow]

D2r is not median xl, it has miles to go before it reaches that apex

[quick magnet]

Nothing is going to "contribute" outside of EHG's personal effort. That's not the point

I'm pretty sure it was just used as an example of a solid baseline to look at

[lean berry]

If you're going to compare ARPGs to LE, stick to actual competitors IMO.

[quick magnet]

the problem is that it's also not a live service game which confounds that comparison inherently

[lean berry]

LE isn't losing players to D2R Remodded.

[glacial crow]

beyond my criticism, i love the skill system like everyone else does, but it should not end there

[quick magnet]

Well it will if they don't happen to deliver any other engaging parts. But that remains to be seen

[lean berry]

There are meaningful non-live service vs live service comparisons in the ARPG market. The big ones are Grim Dawn and Titan Quest 2. Those games do actually compete with live service games like LE, D4, PoE.

[quick magnet]

No, actually, there aren't.

And I only say that because the confounding part is the players' collective expectations

[glacial crow]

and wtf is a paradox class? the poe classless garbage where you have to insert skill gems? can someone explain to me what the paradox class system entails?

[quick magnet]

The problem with the single-player/live service comparison is that people expect a different level of engagement from the developers from the onset.

[lean berry]

I can say with some confidence that LE will lose active players to Fangs of Asterkarn when it releases.

It's a meaningful comparison.

[quick magnet]

offline ARPGs are under no such pressures, and they aren't obligated to make decisions deliberately for the sake of retention. Live services are.

The content therein has to bend around those pressures as a result, so the comparison eventually falls flat enough to be pointless. If you strip the live service context from the game, then many things between them just stop making sense and it collapses.

[lean berry]

The only thing that matters in these comparisons is the overlapping playerbases, IMO.

[coarse swallow]

We'll probably play it as well! We're fine with sharing - no matter what you chose to play, you're still welcome back 🙂

[lean berry]

Grim Dawn and LE do absolutely share overlapping playerbases.

Despite being offline vs online.

[lean berry]

Right on! Let's hope it's good

[quick magnet]

You're not wrong. But people often forget the need for different approaches because of that fact.

The point a live service game decision comes from is very different from many, if not all, other version of even the same genre.

[glacial crow]

already elder scrolls online player are complaining that classless systems dont work in rpgs, and ESO is now dying due to the melting pot of classness system (because my response was too edgy i had to use different wording)

go look it up, its not working

[quick magnet]

Is it not working? or is it not to everyone's taste and will be shifting things around?

Frankly the class rails never belonged in the game in the first place being what it is.

The problem is a deeper balance issue than just lifting the iron curtain

[glacial crow]

elders scrolls online is now losing a massive playerbase because of loss of class identity, there's a word i cant use right now right.

[inner finch]

So, what was this discussion about?