do you think it's because of people who have the role?
#suggestions
lucid ledge
lapis nymph
could you also try leaving the group and then seeing? Or maybe leave and then rejoin
lucid ledge
cos nola didn't have it and he could se it
mhm
it might be good to delete the group in the first place but idk 😅
ik you only wanted a trial of it
yep, that was it lmao
lapis nymph
that's certainly strange
anyway, the idea is that we trial the channel like this and see how things go
gritty geyser
You guys should make a general nur Deutsch chat then have one for each level: A1 A2 B1 B2
This way people can learn with others of the same level
lime sparrow
people can do that in #beginner-german with one another
if you only allow A1s in a channel then you’ll just have a bunch of people learning wrong things from each other and that’s no good
static pulsar
People only want to teach b levels or higher usually though
fathom fulcrum
You can also use the #general-2 like a less serious #german-only where you can try to chat in German while also using English.
If that helps.
static pulsar
The problem is, I can only speak very basically, with improper grammar. If someone replies, I have trouble understanding a lot of what it said or even working out which info corresponds with which verbs/order of stuff.
lapis nymph
@gritty geyser Please use >suggest when making a suggestion so it's recorded for us.
The problem with multiple channels for each level is, in my mind, threefold:
- People of the same level will have a sort of "echo chamber" where they will repeat the same mistakes and the other people, none the wiser, will not know those are mistakes and may repeat them. It's generally better to have a mixed range of levels together talking to each other, who can help and learn from one another.
- Lower levels usually have limited vocabulary or grammar skill, and their subjects will be restricted on which they can talk about. While it's true that they may feel nervous trying to participate in higher level discussions, simply listening to such discussions can help a lot. Seperating the channels into each level might give the people the idea that they do not "belong" in the higher level channels.
- #general-2 already sorta fulfills this purpose where we encourage German to be spoken, but you can use English too to help. #beginner-german also aims to do something similiar, but that is more aimed towards learning. We could probably better advertise these things though.
peak holly
sorry do you expect to already know the language when you start using it?
static pulsar
Is that aimed at me?
peak holly
yes
static pulsar
Why did you feel the need to say that
peak holly
it came out more aggro than i intended, but to answer your question, i'm bothered when i see people limiting their own progress by way of faulty mindsets, especially when it's to do with language learning
lucid ledge
I think having a bit of anxiety is completely normal
and to be overwhelmed is normal
although the problem maple posed is sadly one that I don't think the server can solve
static pulsar
If that is the case, then maybe say "hey, this server is not for beginners, or A levels"
fathom fulcrum
This server is primarily for beginners. But what berzi meant is more so that being confused is a normal part of the process and creating a space where you're not confused actually will just mean you're not learning much.
Like unfortunately, even though it can be unpleasant, being confused and making tons of mistakes is an inherent part of an environment where you are learning something like a new language.
It might seem tempting and more comfortable to have a chat for beginners only, but in the end, it will harm you more than help you. We already have the environments set up here that we feel strike the best possible balance, with #questions , #beginner-german , #general-2 and the various lessons that are held.
lofty oracle
Yeah, I've seen level As teaching wrong stuff to each other more than once when they're left alone
The other channels seem good enough, at least other people can watch and correct them
peak holly
yes. What I meant was that making grammatically incorrect sentences with many mistakes and poor vocabulary is perfectly normal. In fact, there's no way in the world to get to a better level than that without passing through that stage. Which is why that shouldn't stop you or anyone from using the language, no matter how little you know of it. This server has seen plenty of people start from that and get to a very respectable level over time, just by way of trying
fathom fulcrum
(Including me)
sturdy nacelle
suggest I suggest moving practice, lessions text channels to the "voice channels" category
Since they have equivalent voice channels
lucid ledge
@sturdy nacelle >suggest to suggest it
wild aurora
commands don't work in edits
to be frank I'm not sure if suggestions work at all at the moment but please give it a try lmao
sturdy nacelle
All right this is some very formal process, I just wanted to give a small hint xD
peak holly
nah you just have to post your suggestion with >suggest at the start, even if it's small. The mods do all the work after that
fathom fulcrum
If you wonder "Why do you have this weird system?" it's because it lets people have discussions about things here without us worrying that the suggestion gets lost or anything. We can record it and look it up any time we want.
magic jasper
You have to repost it Kiiya
@sturdy nacelle
You cant just edit and have the bot log it
sturdy nacelle
Nah it's not important
magic jasper
Hmmm
I'm going to steal your suggestion
suggest I suggest moving practice, lessions text channels to the "voice channels" category, since they have equivalent voice channels
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
magic jasper
Too late, if it gets approved and people say how great the suggestion is, I get all the glory
sturdy nacelle
Congrats
fathom fulcrum
@magic jasper @sturdy nacelle Could you elaborate a bit on this idea? To answer your suggestion to some extent: the #beginner-german channel and Practice Room are not associated with each other.
fathom fulcrum
They have similar ideas (a place for beginners to practice where people can't disturb it with memes) but they're separate in terms of when/how you use them.
magic jasper
But lessons does get dumped with vc lessons
fathom fulcrum
If you were using the Practice VC, you would use #voice-chat or #voice-chat-2 to type.
magic jasper
So I can see how people think pratice would be similar
fathom fulcrum
The #lessons is an exception because it's a channel with multiple uses. It's primarily for planning and announcing sessions and posting the important content so it's easy to find. We just also use it for the session itself so all the material is together.
thick skiff
Xmas emojis:
rough violet
The snowman is golden
crude orbit
@cursive mauve what do you think of the emotes?
ember iris
suggest I would like to see each voice channel have an associated chat channel , or at least the # nur deutsch channel.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
cursive mauve
They’re ok @crude orbit
royal pasture
suggest I'd like to see activies here (like little games for begginers or something like that); if the server already has it, I'd like to see more.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
lucid ledge
I think movie-nights would be fun for stuff like that :3
fathom fulcrum
@royal pasture Can you give more info about what kind of games you want? VC? Text?
lucid ledge
occasionally people play scribble.io in german here, but it's not official
umbral blaze
I only want officially sanctioned scribblio on my server
sand bramble
The mods must approve of any scribblio for it to count. 😤
static pulsar
I would like to play scribblio
lucid ledge
I could host a game when you're home after the reading session
Just dunno who to ping for it
wild aurora
If you want to do it in german you could ping the activities group
royal pasture
@fathom fulcrum It could be either VC, Text or the both(dictation). It could be even games like GARTIC (with words/objects/... in German), or something like that.
fathom fulcrum
@royal pasture Okay, so you're not asking for anything specific? You're just asking us to run activities?
royal pasture
yes
fathom fulcrum
If so, then the basic answer is that it depends on whether we have anyone who wants to volunteer to host it. You're welcome to host sessions like that, if you wish.
royal pasture
unfortunatety, I can't. But thanks anyway
magic jasper
suggest how about a calendar command so can see what the upcoming activities are. Like if there's a next lesson. Rejected: people can rummage through the channels for these.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
static pulsar
suggest prizes for diligent and studious learners
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
static pulsar
That's a shit prize
rough violet
What kind of prize do you have in mind?
Will the use of GLaD be charged weekly then so the team can provide prizes? 
static pulsar
Worm on a string
static pulsar
YES
sonic surge
can we get a we irritating server emoji
i would litcherally buy nitro
just to have it
lucid ledge
What would that look like
sand bramble
A gif of hecke enjoying steak with ketchup.
lucid ledge
What do you mean, it's just this 
lavish bane
lessons or activities that work better for us NA folk, especially on west coast time, on Saturday or Sunday evenings
lucid ledge
@lavish bane evenings?
Idm postponing then to 10pm CET or so
Making it just over midday for most
lucid ledge
Oh yeah I understand :(
Well you could ask base or @rough violet , I know they used to do them and they're most active during evening NA hours 
lavish bane
@fathom fulcrum @rough violet would something like that be possible for either one of you? if there were enough other people that joined in?
midnight wolfBOT
@magic jasper, your suggestion has been rejected:
@ember iris, your suggestion has been rejected:
@royal pasture, your suggestion has been accepted:
@magic jasper, your suggestion has been accepted:
@gritty geyser, your suggestion has been accepted:
@static pulsar, your suggestion has been rejected:
fathom fulcrum
@lavish bane What time?
lavish bane
sometime after 5 or 6 pm PST would work best for me, but I understand that a lot of people on this server are inactive are during those times, so I get it if that doesn’t work
@fathom fulcrum
fathom fulcrum
Okay, I'll consider it.
lavish bane
danke dir (:
magic jasper
Why is g-trans and g-writing in off topics
fathom fulcrum
For now I think it's just because we've put all the "group" channels in there. We may adjust it later.
sand bramble
Heyo lovely community memers. Over the next few days we'll be porting the group system over to the new development bot. Since we know there have been limitations and downsides of it, we'd like to use this chance to hear some of your thoughts and see what we can do to improve the system. We're going to be reimplementing it entirely, so at this point it's easy to make changes of all kinds. What do you think can be done better? And while it's probably not a matter for the implementation, how can we make more people aware of groups? Admittedly, #282831147942281216 didn't do a good job of describing them until recently, which has now changed.
How would you feel about a system where all groups are visible to everyone by default, but you can only send messages to them if you have the group role, and for people who want to reduce clutter by hiding the groups visible by default, they can do something like >group hidedefault or similar to remove their read access from all the groups they're not members of?
umbral blaze
I dont like all groups being visible by default. It just makes everything more cluttered for people who just joined us.
lucid ledge
I actually am a fan of the latter idea
fathom fulcrum
I think it's a cool idea. But yeah, I also like when I join a server and can join groups by opting in. As long as the info is accessible and I can join myself, I usually like that system.
lucid ledge
I wouldn't know any other way of making people aware they exist without forcibly explaining to each one.
The argument also stands that if members would like to be active in these communities they would search them out themselves
fathom fulcrum
Usually they are made aware by the information being available in an info channel.
umbral blaze
I also dont really get this push to make side groups more populated. I think that considering this is a german learning server, it is understable that most people only care about the learning channels until they are more familiar with the community. You dont join German Learning and Discussion to talk about videogames.
fathom fulcrum
Most servers these days have opt-in roles so most people (who actively use discord) are used to the system anyway.
umbral blaze
If someone cant be trusted to find out that groups exist, they shouldnt be trusted to know how to remove clutter by opting out
While these groups are fun, they are definitely not vital to the server as a whole and get ignored by a broad majority of people that are well aware that they exist.
That for me speaks against making them a default.
fathom fulcrum
We could consider making a dedicated roles info channel to make it easier though.
sand bramble
Well, it doesn't necessarily have to apply for all groups, but with things like dialects, translation or writing (or even totd if we decide to make it a group again), it would likely make sense. And then if people wonder about all these weird channels, they might find the fun offtopic groups as well.
umbral blaze
are dialects, translations and writing group channels?
umbral blaze
dialects neither as far as i am aware
fathom fulcrum
Yeah.
sand bramble
Oh right. Dialects used to be a group but was promoted to a regular channel.
umbral blaze
if its part of learning, i have nothing against making it opt-out
lucid ledge
admin more like badmin 
umbral blaze
but everything unrelated to learning german should be opt-in
in my opinion at least
lucid ledge
by that argument we should lock general 99% of the time too 😔
lofty oracle
I feel like some groups are kinda underused and pointless
umbral blaze
im not saying glad isnt a place for off topic discussions
lapis nymph
I agree with @umbral blaze
fathom fulcrum
Well, this chat is more so for discussing the system itself. Discussing the usage of individual channels may be for another day. @lofty oracle
umbral blaze
just that this isnt why people come here so i dont see why we should push for people getting into niche groups
lapis nymph
All learning groups should be promoted, and the others left in the shadows.
lofty oracle
Okay fine
sand bramble
We don't have to push them into it, but I just wish there was a way to make people more aware of the fact that there are indeed other channels that we have, because I do see stuff like "oh there's a coding channel? how do I get in?" often enough. Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if people actually read #282831147942281216 but reee. Maybe it isn't something we can actively combat ig.
fathom fulcrum
Maybe the group list command a bit more explanatory might be good too.
So people can just post that when they want to answer people, in the same was as we use >faq
lucid ledge
While the primary goal of the server is to learn german I believe a lot of the reason we are so active and why many people choose to stay is because of the community. Not being strictly a 'learning german' can enable new people to find others to share their interests with here, and hopefully give them a little more motivation to stay and to learn on a longer term.
It's also often been the case that groups will see little activity once locked behind a role (I'm referring primarly to millie's reading sessions and pferds writing as an example). Awareness of options is a big issue that most people who join have, and I at the moment can't see how to promote that.
umbral blaze
I think the effect that has on why side groups dont have many active users might be a bit overestimated though
again im in favour of making reading and writing more visible
fathom fulcrum
@lucid ledge Neither of those are locked behind a role though?
lucid ledge
Millie's reading was locked behind advanced reading
sand bramble
Yeah, but with reading/advancedreading, they don't have their own dedicated channels, the groups are just used for pings, so the channels visible by default idea would do nothing about that.
lucid ledge
g-writing is still role-locked as far as I can see
alright, sorry arrem, I wasn't aware
fathom fulcrum
Pferd posts the prompts in #writing and #beginner-german though.
umbral blaze
in any case, regarding hecke's argument
sand bramble
No need to apologize nerd lmao.
lucid ledge
which promptly get lost as people post in there @fathom fulcrum
umbral blaze
i dont think you get involved in side channels and then gradually become part of the community
you become part of the community and through that get interested in the side groups
Maybe not entirely, but I feel that especially with groups like gaming, this is the case
umbral blaze
lmao knots
wild aurora
Lmao
lucid ledge
ahaha god knots
gaming is pretty redundant and dead, which is surprising because of the interest people privately express in wanting to take part in it
lofty oracle
I actually said something useful this time too 😔
sand bramble
I agree with that, Mami. But learning groups are an essential feature of the server, and offtopic groups do contribute to the health of the community, so making them both slightl more visible would not be a bad idea. It's just that I'm not sure if there's a nice way to do that.
umbral blaze
I am not against making offtopic more visible somehow
lucid ledge
and I'm sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean what you wrote there.
I mean it can help facilitate a feeling of inclusivity and community, not that it's the only way to go about it.
umbral blaze
but making them opt out is the wrong way
sand bramble
togglebroob
dull horizonBOT
OwO.
sand bramble
There Knots, you have been uncursed. 
lucid ledge
I'm agreeing to them on the basis that I don't really know what else to do to promote visibility.
umbral blaze
with learning channels however, i think making them opt out is a good idea
lucid ledge
if there was another option I wouldn't agree to it either
sand bramble
Sure, it might be. This (part of the) discussion is all about finding the right way.
fathom fulcrum
I don't think it makes sense for any learning channels to be opt out. Discord already has a feature built in for people to mute and hide channels on their own.
umbral blaze
See i think the status quo is better than making them opt-out hecke
i think no change would be preferable to promoting visibility in that way
true base, im mainly against the fact that theyre hidden from the start
how you can hide them if you dont want to be a part is not very relevant to me
lucid ledge
As I said before, talking to people privately or on general there IS interest in activities where the 'interest' channels could get some use. It would be nice to utilize those, but I can't say for certain whether that hasn't happened yet because of lack of visibility or because of lack of motivation of actually investing.
It's been established many times before that people will easily say yes to things but not as easily commit to their answer.
umbral blaze
theres interest in a wide range of activities but 1) not everyone is interested in the same stuff and esp in the case of offtopic servers id argue the majority is not and 2) activities are seperate from groups, if you made an activity for gaming an advertised it somewhere else, people would come, but the fact is noone wants to plan any activities for interest groups not many people are into
sand bramble
Well, one thing here is what a group should even be. Currently we have three types (excluding the bercow group):
- Learning groups with backing channels like g-writing and g-translation
- Offtopic groups like science, coding or food
- Groups exclusively used for pings like Grammar, Reading and Advancedreading
How to handle groups depends entirely on which of these categories you're thinking about. I do agree with Base that it might just be worth making the first category regular channels, (e.g. renaming #531485369154273280 to #writing-prompts and #531447608888000522 to #translation-exercises or similar).
For the other two though, and especially the third, there is a question of how you make people more aware of them. Because while not everyone has to know about offtopic groups, it would be good if the new members knew that they can subscribe for pings about lessons.
lucid ledge
@fathom fulcrum as I understood you are against making all channels visible. I'd like to ask what problems you see with letting the users have the responsibility to mute/unjoin certain channels personally
umbral blaze
Arrem, the way i understand it, advanced reading is for higher level reading right?
Why doesnt advanced reading just ping level C and maybe B
sand bramble
Yeah. Reading targets level As and advancedreading targets Bs and Cs.
wild aurora
Because that would be hundreds of people
lucid ledge
ah, it was my thought that reading was for every level
lapis nymph
Because these levels are self assigned and rarely a good representation of reality
Also imagine the rage lol
sand bramble
And yeah, it would motivate people to get rid of their CEFR role if they don't want the pings.
lucid ledge
wild aurora
Imagine someone pinged Learning German 
lucid ledge
imagine if someone pinged everyone to show them a cool new shirt they got
umbral blaze
I would suggest making 1) opt out or simply standard groups although i personally prefer the former, doing not a whole lot about 2) and really trying to promote the visibility of 3)
what does the grammar role do actually?
for grammar sessions?
sand bramble
I can agree with all of that because I think people who know about 3 will also find out about 2 if they're interested, but I'm not sure how to actively promote visibility of 3 in an effective way.
lucid ledge
how would you all personally feel about bot DMs giving an overview of the groups upon joining?
sand bramble
Yeah, Grammar sessions, where the levels very much vary depending on the host and the group.
wild aurora
Not everyone has DMs enabled
umbral blaze
i think more info on groups might be given in the inital bot message
sand bramble
How would you feel about the welcome message- yeah.
lucid ledge
the bot sends them a cute friend request uwu
fathom fulcrum
Just a note on the reading vc advanced reading thing: Reading is technically for everyone, but many people wouldn't be able to read texts that fall under "advanced reading" (after all, most people in the server are Level A) so it makes sense to split it up so that people can choose whether to be pinged for hard or normal texts.
lucid ledge
yeah, thats the impression I got too base
reading is for everyone, advancedreading is only for higher levels
why not just mod mami
umbral blaze
king me
fathom fulcrum
Well, that's not really true either. Everyone is welcome to join either type of session freely. But the advanced reading lessons have a likelihood of wanting to have faster sessions, so people might be asked, per individual session, to not read.
But the tag itself doesn't exclude anyone.
umbral blaze
i like the current reading roles
sand bramble
What I'm not a huge fan of is the welcome message being too bulky.
Hello and welcome @lucid ledge ! Please look at #282831147942281216 to get started 😄
Check out >group list for a list of our groups.
Would maybe be okay, but that gets rid of the German translation. Which I personally don't really care about that much.
lucid ledge
mm, also arrem advanced reading iirc also had it's own voice channel
fathom fulcrum
What about the suggestion I made earlier about a dedicated role info channel? Most servers have one of those.
lucid ledge
I think that could work better too
fathom fulcrum
Usually just called #roles
sand bramble
All groups can have their own text and voice, but not all are there by default. For advancedreading, if a session is taking place and needs a dedicated channel, one can be created.
sand bramble
I wouldn't mind that Base, but I'm again not sure if people would bother checking it out. Though honestly at that point there isn't much we can do about it anyway I guess.
umbral blaze
Ive seen some servers ping you in a message explaining the roles in a seperate roles channel
when you arrive ofc
i think people can handle two pings when they join
pings are usually annoying if you do something else
lucid ledge
oh that is another option, pinging people underneath the rules/info/roles then deleting that message within a few mins/secs to save clutter
fathom fulcrum
Like I said, I think most people who use Discord understand the concept of role assignment pretty well these days and most people will check the #roles channel upon joining.
wild aurora
People rarely read #282831147942281216 or even #announcements , I‘m not sure if a dedicated roles channel would help in that regard
fathom fulcrum
I think it would.
umbral blaze
i think it would in combination with the second ping
lucid ledge
I agree with base here, I think it's a better option
I'm generally against long single-text channels explaining everything in the first place, my patience usually can't handle it either
breaking it down might help people find what theyre lookign for easier
fathom fulcrum
I don't see any benefit of pinging people about roles though. I think most people will actually ignore that, more than they ignore the channels.
sand bramble
What we could do is have the bot ping them in #roles and then delete the ping immediately so they get a ghost ping and there's no clutter. But the downside is that everyone else also gets an unread message notification.
fathom fulcrum
Like if I joined a new server, I would probably not care about some random bot pings. I would instead look straight to the roles channel myself.
sand bramble
Though then again, just mute #roles lmao.
lucid ledge
yeah but you're more dedicated than most base 😅
fathom fulcrum
No, I don't think I am. I think that's normal behaviour.
For normal discord users. Not for people who are new to discord.
umbral blaze
when people arrive is the only moment you can be 100% sure they arent annoyed by a ping because they are on discord
lucid ledge
^
umbral blaze
usually people click on a channel to make the ping there go away
lucid ledge
I think if everyone had your outlook, regardless of how new they are to discord, this isn't a discussion we would be having
umbral blaze
whose outlook henk?
lucid ledge
base's
fathom fulcrum
What outlook? The outlook is "I want to see the hidden channels" and so I look what they are and join the ones I like.
sand bramble
How do you all feel about the ghost ping idea?
lucid ledge
I can take it or leave it
umbral blaze
whats a ghost ping?
lucid ledge
I think it will help only a very minute percentile
but at this point thats what you're trying to accomplish
umbral blaze
you mean percentage henko
lucid ledge
one of those words
sand bramble
What we could do is have the bot ping them in #roles and then delete the ping immediately so they get a ping notification in #roles, but there's no message with their username, so they'll just see the roles immediately and there's no clutter. But the downside is that everyone else also gets an unread message notification.
lucid ledge
accurate how I look over
fathom fulcrum
I dislike it. I wouldn't like it if I were new to a server.
umbral blaze
see i dont think getting a second ping is any issue for people who just joined
they just expressed interest in the server
lucid ledge
me neither, in fact in a lot of popular servers it's the norm
umbral blaze
they definitely have the time to check out some stuff
they are definitely on discord
lucid ledge
people won't leave because of it, at worst they'll click on the channel to get rid of it, at best they may actually read it
umbral blaze
and they will very likely understand that the server is trying to show them whats up
if you leave because a server you joined pinged you twice im not sure youll be very active anyway
you can have a ghost ping to avoid clutter on the channel itself but then id keep it for around a minute
sand bramble
people won't leave because of it, at worst they'll click on the channel to get rid of it, at best they may actually read it
Yeah, I agree with that. And I really think a ghost ping would be a nice solution. You just get the (1) next to the #roles channel name, motivating you to open it and get rid of the message, and when you do, you're greeted with the roles.
lucid ledge
@umbral blaze the problem with the last part is that sometimes (especially when a link gets posted somewhere) multiple people join within the span of seconds
people will then click on the channel to see a list of names 😓
umbral blaze
does the (1) stay after you deleted a message?
lucid ledge
mhm
sand bramble
Yeah.
That's why it's called a ghost ping. You get the notification, but there's no message.
umbral blaze
oh okay then it can be just a few seconds
lucid ledge
it's why I can see how many messages from your rants you delete 😔
sand bramble
Base, how do you feel about that?
umbral blaze
its a good strategy to keep you invested in whats going on in my life hreckie
lucid ledge
I'm always invested slut
fathom fulcrum
If you want to do it, I won't argue with it, but like I said, I would personally dislike that as a person joining a new server.
lofty oracle
Well you could just try and see if anyone complains
lucid ledge
by the way, since a lot of people may not want to read this whole conversation or may come home late, do you wanna shortly summarize the options and pin them temporarily?
umbral blaze
i should really start working at this point so bb
sand bramble
But if you personally are joining and plan to look at #roles anyway, then why is a red button next to it that'll go away as soon as you click a problem? Plus, if it's sent at the same instant as the welcome message, it wouldn't even make two sounds or anything.
fathom fulcrum
You could just as easily turn that around: if I'm going to look at it anyway, then why would I need to be pinged for it? If the channel is named correctly, I'll be able to find it myself on my own time.
And imagine if someone has no interest in roles. Then they are being pinged for a channel they have no plans to read.
lofty oracle
Well I like the idea cos it's just like a videogame that points you to important windows to look at when you begin
fathom fulcrum
It's true that it's only one click and not a true problem, but it can still create a negative impression upon joining.
lofty oracle
I still think it'd be interesting to see what the newcomers themselves will think
fathom fulcrum
But to summarize my main reason for being opposed to it: I wouldn't like it, so I can't justify inflicting it on others.
wild aurora
I'm not sure how I feel about a ping in general but I also definitely dislike the idea of a ghost ping, doesn't seem very professional to me
sand bramble
if I'm going to look at it anyway, then why would I need to be pinged for it?
Yeah, but my view is that the average memer wouldn't normally look at it, and with there being a red button that they want gone, they'll at least have to click on it. But still, given that this does seem to be a polarizing issue, I think it's worth implementing the minimal feature set i.e. just the #roles channel, and then evaluating how that plays out before adopting further measures.
lucid ledge
we could keep them for a few minutes but again, t could clog the channel on multiple joins
fathom fulcrum
If it were some unique channel for some unique server concept, this would be a different story. I would appreciate hints for something that is essential to using the server or somehow has some significance. Off-topic channels, however, is just a generic server feature that pretty much everyone is aware of and should be able to find on their own.
As well as being unimportant to the server.
sand bramble
Yeah, I can see that, though it wouldn't apply to people who are new to Discord and/or don't really care about roles to begin with.
lucid ledge
I don't think many people believe that a german server would have such channels, they were made purely from the community to have a place to talk about their interests
wild aurora
can you see all the channels when you join the server at the moment ?
lucid ledge
thats why I can understand if people do not expect or know about the options available to them
sand bramble
You can if you read #282831147942281216. But they're not visible by default.
wild aurora
what
sand bramble
Yes. You only get access to everything in the offtopic category if you >sub to it.
A user who has just joined would not see an offtopic category at all.
wild aurora
yeah but you can see #general for example when you join, you just can't type for the first 10 minutes right ?
lofty oracle
you can't?
crude orbit
I'm personally in favour of the ghost ping idea for new members - we already ping them when they join
fathom fulcrum
I think we could justify a ping if we made Lessons the focus of the #roles channel, and I think we could do that if we found a way to make lessons more structured.
sand bramble
Yeah, you can see all the publicly accessible channels. And you need to be a member of Discord for 5 minutes before you can type. So if you have an older account and just join, you'll be able to type immediately.
fathom fulcrum
So my personal stance is that we should revisit the idea of a ping after we work more on the community involvement review.
lofty oracle
oh, alright
sand bramble
Fair and seconded for both points, Base.
crude orbit
we should pingspam everyone at 4am German time to weed out those not strong enough for German
wild aurora
mh what about we push that responsibility to the bot by only making #282831147942281216 #rules and #roles visible for the first 10 minutes ? that way people would have time to read stuff and we probably wouldn't even need to ping them because they'd be curious anyway
lucid ledge
didnt you get banned from thsi channel callum
fathom fulcrum
Hmm, it's an interesting idea, Syro. Not sure if it would work for a server of this size though. 🤔
sand bramble
We've generally decided against such ideas in the past. I personally don't think it feels particularly welcoming to have to wait that long.
fathom fulcrum
I think it's something we would have to think about in terms of how such barriers affect large servers.
lofty oracle
I wouldn't like that one
Would feel kinda weird, joining a server and immediately being isolated
dull horizonBOT
fuck off knots :unamused:
sand bramble
Oh sorry I restarted it lmao
lofty oracle
Arrem didn't you turn this off
fathom fulcrum
Yeah. I personally think giving people the freedom to do as they wish instead of forcing them to read stuff is better. I think we have a good stance of allowing people a lot of responsibility in the server and I think that meshes well with this being a community-driven server.
Maybe for a different server it would be fine, but for me, it clashes a bit with our usual approach.
lucid ledge
I suggested that before but it got shot down 😔
I also think it's a good idea, it's what a lot of larger server implement these days
fathom fulcrum
Can you send me some DM invites to some examples?
lucid ledge
I can't remember but I could find some
fathom fulcrum
Sure, that would be helpful.
wild aurora
I just think you have to lead them by the hand to ensure they actually get the necessary info and I'm not sure if a ping is sufficient for that
I agree that it's kinda isolating at first though
sand bramble
Well even if I'm locked in for 10 minutes, doesn't mean I'd actually read it, maybe I'd just go do something else for 10 minutes and come back.
lucid ledge
I just checked this server I sent to base, you're required to answer messages regarding the rules to actually get in
but that seems like it would isolate more people than bring in
wild aurora
yeah but imo the probability is higher ^^of course it's not a guarantee
fathom fulcrum
Oh yeah, that server is way too intense, lol.
wild aurora
yeah that might be a bit too much 
sand bramble
In my view, we should do our best to draw attention to it, but accept the fact that if someone really doesn't want to read about roles/groups we can't do anything about it and shouldn't really aim to do so in the first place. Giving you the information in a compact way in #roles is already generous, possibly drawing your attention to it with a ping too, and that's where I'd stop.
fathom fulcrum
Yeah, I agree with that, Arrem.
lucid ledge
I feel both options are good, but I feel the latter is certainly going to put a dent in join/leave rates
sand bramble
Any sort of a lockout could affect new member retention rates imo. Arguably, who knows if people who can't be bothered reading the rules and info and would rather leave would even be good members of the community, but we probably have a good bit of regular members who didn't bother reading it when they first joined and then maybe later came back to it.
fathom fulcrum
Well, to give the example of my experience in joining a server just now, I felt like I would be happy to read the rules later, but my initial impulse is that I want to see what the server is like and who posts there and maybe say hi first.
wild aurora
I mean sure that's fine too, I just wanted to point it that it's also a possible alternative
should we write a short summary of what we have so far ?
lucid ledge
it would be nice for people who wanna comment later
sand bramble
Probably would be nice for everyone else who wants to participate, but I have to go to uni in like 20 min.
fathom fulcrum
Maybe you can just repost the original post later (when different people are online) with the summary and see what happens.
lucid ledge
if nobody else had time I could write up a short one in 30 mins
just with the options so far or opinions too?
sand bramble
Yeah, could do. I've pinned it and updated both my messages to tell people to look at the pin.
I'd just go with the options to avoid essentially copying the whole convo lmao.
But anyway, since I won't be here for a while, for everyone else who might come and want to share their thoughts, I encourage you not to focus entirely on this one point of group visibility, but to also share you general thoughts. Since it's being rewritten anyway, is there anything that we could do better?
peak holly
since groups often concern themselves with stuff unrelated to german (and that's kind of the point of them not being regular channels on the server) I would be against their being visible to all by default.
I would say an announcement would be enough to advertise new groups. And maybe the bot could periodically send a message in #general encouraging people to look through the list of groups to see if they want to join one
sand bramble
Yeah, I think the visible by default for all groups idea has pretty much been scrapped now.
What are your thoughts about the #roles channel discussed above?
tardy barn
I'm happy as long as bercow stays the elitist shitpost it is <u<
peak holly
@sand bramble tl;dr pls?
lucid ledge
Ideas discussed so far:
● people being able to assign roles with reactions
● Extra ping in either #roles/#282831147942281216 upon member join
- ghostpingging to remove clutter in the channel
- keeping the pings up but risking clutter
● an extra #roles channel separate from #282831147942281216
● making 'learning' groups visible to everybody (plus renames)
- with an option to opt-out
- without such an option, leaving it up to users to mute/ignore
● making ALL groups (off-topic and learning) visible to everybody
-with the option to opt-out
● 10 min lock before being able to join the server
- only have channels under the Server tab be available
- having to confirm they read the rules/info before having access to the channels
● change to the welcome message to show groups
● some groups being under-used/pointless
- do we promote such groups or is there no point
● periodic messages in general reminding people about the existence of groups
● DM message from the bot upon joining
- problem: some people have DMs disabled
jesus ok, thats not a tl;dr
fathom fulcrum
Just to clarify: those are things discussed, not things we're necessarily considering doing.
tardy barn
create another glad spin-off for memes and giggles :^)
peak holly
● making 'learning' groups visible to everybody (plus renames)
leaving it up to users to mute/ignore
that'd be pretty much like making them regular channels. If they're german-related topics i'd be ok with it, personally.
lucid ledge
@tardy barn thats a convoluted way of asking for a meme channel
tardy barn
magic jasper
Which is against the rules umu 😠
sand bramble
Yeah Berz, promoting all learning groups (currently writing and translation) to regular channels in order to make them more visible is what that refers to. For the similar reasons as totd.
magic jasper
But I can see how useful for people to have default roles and if they get annoyed can opt out
But some of the default roles comes with pings
And people may rage. Otoh this might force them to ask how to remove the stick poking them
peak holly
i don't quite get what was proposed #roles to be but i could see it as a channel the bot monitors, with an embed explaining all available roles. Users would post there just easily mentioning the group/roles they want and the bot would apply them. All messages would be deleted after a couple seconds to keep the embed nice and visible.
fathom fulcrum
@peak holly It's just a channel where the roles and lessons info is posted by itself so people don't have to scroll down in #282831147942281216 to find it.
tardy barn
I'm good boi who read the rules and the group description when i first joined i just didn't read any of the updates that came later
peak holly
@sand bramble yeah that is probably a good idea. Perhaps using the group phase as a test and if it gets traction and is relevant it would be "promoted"
wild aurora
fathom fulcrum
People don't like groups as tests because they feel that if it's a group, they can't post there for some reason. @peak holly Such as with #totd. We made it a group to start, but no one wanted to post in it unless we made it public.
sand bramble
Essentially that, but role assignment in the channel hadn't been discussed before, though I feel like it could be interesting.
fathom fulcrum
Yeah, role assignment in the channel isn't bad. We can even do emote react assignment for CEFR roles if we want.
wild aurora
A lot of servers use that method, I think it would be nice if we had both options
tardy barn
that seems like a good option
sand bramble
Yeah, I like that.
lucid ledge
that sounds really good 
unkempt socket
As in "People have to assign themselves a role to get access to the rest of the server"?
sand bramble
No, just a channel that describes all the assignable roles (cefr and groups), and gives you the option to get them within it.
sand bramble
There's a pinned one of all the ideas we discussed above, but the role thing isn't in it since it was brought up just now.
lucid ledge
it is when you compare it to the memery before
fathom fulcrum
tldr: we discuss group system, we discuss how people get in group
lime sparrow
some opinions on ideas mentioned (not gonna read up on the whole convo, sorry if things have been said already):
people being able to assign roles with reactions
strongly in favour
Extra ping in either #roles/#282831147942281216 upon member join
ambivalent about it, doesn’t seem particularly necessary to me. maybe just include some form of “Please check out #roles” it in the welcome message
an extra #roles channel separate from #282831147942281216
don’t care either way, extra channel is easier to manage
making 'learning' groups visible to everybody (plus renames)
- with an option to opt-out
- without such an option, leaving it up to users to mute/ignore
if the roles are getting pinged, they should be opt-in. channels themselves should be open, imo
making ALL groups (off-topic and learning) visible to everybody
I’d keep off-topic gated, combined with role reactions it shouldn’t be a hurdle
some groups being under-used/pointless
I believe the fact that groups are currently somewhat arcane and well-hidden is a big part of it. I’d monitor them after revamp and then see which remain underused
periodic messages in general reminding people about the existence of groups
not necessary if the roles or info channel spells stuff out clearly; currently it kinda doesn’t
DM message from the bot upon joining
hate it
bascially my ideal system would probably be quite close to what’s been discussed:
-learning-related channels are open to everyone
-roles channel or detailed message in #282831147942281216 has up-to-date info on all available or otherwise important roles (incl. stuff like what the difference between mod and admin is, scope of the accessible off-topic channels etc)
-roles either give access to an off-topic channel or are there to be pinged for events, preferrably not both at once
-bot kindly tells you where to look when joining the server
-reactions for getting roles. slight issue with A/B/C roles being exclusive but I don’t think it’d be possible for the bot to easily remove your reactions if you give yourself a new one
lucid ledge
I don't think there is any difference between mod and admin now
since everyone is now an admin
sand bramble
Well Moderator is atm reserved for new mods. It still exists and has a slightly reduced permission set.
In theory it would just be 3 buttons a b c. When you click on it, the bot gives you the role and removes your reaction. So you could always click, and I'd also add a sanity check so that you can only change your role 2 times per minute or so to prevent abuse.
umbral blaze
you mean i cant make a nice rainbow role that switches every second?
lime sparrow
ah you make the bot remove the reaction right again that makes sense
lofty oracle
So if you abuse the command you become insane?
sand bramble
Okay, that's a pretty neat system.
For the >group commands themselves is there anything you'd like changed?
lime sparrow
well, making them also via reactions
the system I know from other servers you react to get the role and unreact to have it taken off
sand bramble
Hm, idk how I feel about reactions for groups. They can be pretty random so finding appropriate emoji is a problem, they're not exactly constant, so there'd need to be a way to update the reactions/message description and make sure to get the order right, and above all, we'll sometimes just >group assign people to groups in case of group mods, or just give them the group role (in case of regular mods), all of which kinda breaks the reaction system.
lucid ledge
Is it difficult to have both?
peak holly
I would avoid reaction based stuff, it's not as good a system as it may sound
If there's to be a channel for roles, the bot can keep it clean and listen to messages without needing a prefix, which would already make it much more usable for the average user
sand bramble
We can do that for groups, but for cefr where there are three things that are quite common to get, I think a reaction-based approach would be good. While still keeping an option of either typing it into the channel or doing >getrole as before.
For groups, I'd just do type the name in the channel or do >sub. But managing groups via reactions, especially with the remove reaction to leave feature has the potential to get messy.
lime sparrow
I would avoid reaction based stuff, it's not as good a system as it may sound
we use it on the conlangs server and it works flawlessly, though we use an external bot for it
(numbers are low becasue we recently reset the message)
this is right below a long description of what each role does
what annoys me is that the bot seems to do the thing in reverse order
and like, of the 1500 members on that server (of which there are probbaly like 500 that have ever written sth), almost 300 have grabbed the nerd role - I doubt as many would’ve done that if we had you type a bot command
but of course we don’t have the data
mossy gulch
I would put a short summary of every CEFR level in the message where you would get the role
Probably the most asked question here by new people is which level they should choose
lime sparrow
for sure, yes, and include sth like the link to that self-assessment grid or at least to the wiki page below it too
midnight wolfBOT
If you see something like A1, B2 or C1, these represent the proficiency of a speaker in a language they're not native in, and are called CEFR levels. They are valid for any language, not only German!
Roughly speaking, A levels are beginners and C levels are experts. Remember that CEFR level are self-assessed and indicative!
You can see more specific names and descriptions on the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages
🗨 How do I know what level I am?
If the table on Wikipedia is too generic for you, you can try using this one here:
https://rm.coe.int/168045bb52
Just check each column one at a time: if you can do all it describes, move to the next column. Your level is the highest where you can do the most things.
Alternatively, you can use this questionnaire to estimate your level more accurately:
https://www.laits.utexas.edu/fi/sites/laits.utexas.edu.fi/files/Self Assessment Checklist European.pdf
lime sparrow
I would personally write something like:
Level A: You’re relatively new to German. You might already know a lot of words but struggle to hold a conversation beyond smalltalk. Or maybe you just started out.
Level B: You’re intermediate. You can hold a conversation fine and know all the important bits of grammar, but there’s a lot of things left to learn.
Level C: You’re advanced. You have no problems speaking to people in German, even about complex topics that you might not be so familiar with. You know not only the necessary parts of grammar but also lesser used bits. Your accent is alright.
sand bramble
I think a short explanation, together with something like see faq for more detailed info would be nice.
lime sparrow
yea
tardy mirage
wenn du merkst, dass du nicht einmal die Bedingungen fürs B-Niveau erfüllst
lucid ledge
^^^ lol
peak holly
i mean, there's stuff left to learn for everyone including C levels. That's not the defining point
the ability to comfortably discuss complex stuff is what sets C apart from B the most (though it's far from being the only thing)
icy mortar
The #languages channel isn't mentioned in the channel categories in #282831147942281216
grand prairie
I think you should only be able to assign B or C level to yourself if you provide a certificate or if others have witnessed your language level for some time.
lucid ledge
Ngl I have a C certificate but it doesn't make me good at german
In fact I still make mistakes constantly
I don't know what the certificate does nor doesn't change if it's misinformation
grand prairie
Yes but I still think it's more trustworthy than people arbitrarily assigning levels to themselves.
lucid ledge
Why do you need to trust them
grand prairie
Because you need to prove that you're comptent enough if people want to ask you questions.
lucid ledge
Ok but here's my point
B Levels make mistakes constantly
C levels make mistakes constantly
Even natives can give misleading advice
Two natives can have an entirely different perspective on how natural one sentence sounds
It's the learners responsibility to approach any answer with a healthy scepticism, and try their best to figure out themselves the validity of what is being said
There is no way to avoid it entirely, just to prevent misinformation as much as possible
If somebody assigned themselves level B or C and they're not ready the only person they're fooling is themselves
grand prairie
I didn't say it would remove misinfomration entirely but it can significantly limit it and it would give the server a more authentic feelings.
And while no one is perfect, there are objective standards to see how comptent and skilled someone can be in order to help others.
I just think it would make things more reliable
And while it is ultimately the learner's responsibility, i still think we can make the process better for them.
fathom fulcrum
We usually ask people to change their role if there is a significant issue with their current assignment. Do you feel that is insufficient? @grand prairie
grand prairie
@fathom fulcrum Oh i didn't know that. In that case, there's not much to fret about, but I think providing certificates can still be useful.
fathom fulcrum
A lot of people don't have certificates.
I don't, for example.
But anyway, if you notice someone who you feel might have a negative impact on other learners by using a misleading role, feel free to contact a moderator about it. (After making sure they actually understand the meaning of the levels, of course)
ancient glade
@fathom fulcrum, @grand prairie, I learn online, how would I get a certificate?
grand prairie
@ancient glade language centers next to you should provide language exams
ancient glade
I live in an area without a language center
-_-
grand prairie
Really? That's weird. How far is the closest one to you?
ancient glade
Allow me to look, @grand prairie.
4 hours QwQ
I can't just go places either; I haven't a licence to drive.
still grove
I agree with the points hecke made, specifically the healthy scepticism part. I mean if you approach language learning like you do studying math, you're going to have a hard time. There's just too many things to consider while learning.
lime sparrow
certificates are expensive and only a small subset of learners actually need one
peak holly
and their standards for evaluation are much more arbitrary than you might think
not to mention, not everybody lives in a priviledged country or situation, and it would be rather arrogant of a discord server to require a user spend time, money and effort into a certificate just to have a coloured nickname
gloomy matrix
i'm late to the party, but re: locking users out of all channels except rules and info for 10 mins when they join is imo a bad idea, especially if they can't see or read the other channels. when i join server I want to be able to see the mood of the chats and get a vibe for things. I'm also quick to judge if I want to give a server a chance and I think a lot of people are. If I'm not shown something I like within that first 10 minutes I'm highly inclined to leave. Of course most people who come here want to learn german and that's incentive to stay, but they don't know whether or not this is a good community to support them in that goal.
Re: proving your level
people have already put forward good points for this, but I'd also like to add that even within the levels there's a huge variety in peoples skills, and it's not a black and white jump between levels, but a gradient. And naturally, not all skills progress at the same level - there is especially often a noticable gap between passive and active skills. E.g. understanding written texts and recognising grammatical errors vs. using correct grammar intuitively and having a healthy active vocabulary. For me around B1 that was especially noticable I think.
I think in terms of assessing quality of answers, when I first joined when I was still in the As I primarily looked to natives and C levels. I think C level would be the only one I'd be concerned about accuracy of placement for, and I think the mods can easily spot and deal with when someone clearly isn't a C.
I also don't know the actual role numbers, but observationally in terms of active users I think B level is probably the least populated CEFR role so it wouldn't really matter there because there's so few of us anyway. And it isn't really harmful to have someone more skilled than A wearing the A role. So that only leaves C, but the point from above still stands there
fathom fulcrum
@gloomy matrix Actually, just to add to you last point, we generally don't allow people who are advanced to have A role either, lol.
Because we feel it can be intimidating or discouraging for new learners to see people who are "beginners" speaking very good German.
umbral blaze
What's up with heckie then?
fathom fulcrum
I have no idea.
wild aurora
exceptions may apply for the memes, however those are only temporary and in this case have already been reverted yesterday during the lession
umbral blaze
I want exceptions may apply for memes to be rule 9
lucid ledge
Lmfao
sand bramble
Sorry, rule 9 is already taken. 😔
umbral blaze
Rule 69 then
gloomy matrix
that's a good point that I didn't think about
and am also in favour of rule 69
fathom fulcrum
Please use the >suggest command to make suggestions.
gloomy matrix
poop
midnight wolfBOT
Sorry but this suggestion is too long (1046/1000).
You can always add more explanations to your suggestion after the initial post.
Sorry but this suggestion is too long (1009/1000).
You can always add more explanations to your suggestion after the initial post.
static pulsar
Oof
gloomy matrix
so close
suggest
Suggestion to the admins: For each audio chat provide one text chat, so that people can use the text chat with the same name and don't get confused about in which actual text chat to write. At the moment there is different people in the same audio chat using different text chats, and everyone is just switching between text chats permanently.
I think you could probably just use 1 channel called Study Groups for the two study groups considering their small size. Lessons is normally also paired with the lessons text chat already. one could theoretically pair Practice Room with the practice text chat. But channel order makes that a bit of a pain in the ass to make it clear they're connected.
I don't think every vs needs its own text channel though. Based on what I usually see from voice activity people are usually split between casual and nur-deutsch. so another permutation could be one text chat called vc-casual, one vc-nur-Deutsch, and optionally a third catchall vc-other-channels?
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
gloomy matrix
yuss. soz melonboy but no room for credit there
upper prairie
suggest
i think there should be an opt-in text channel about motors/Fahrzeuge
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
umbral blaze
I think a German server is legally obligated to have one
delicate hawk
this is gonna get rejected lol. use general/ allgemein
peak holly
can't users make groups? There would be nothing against this being a group
umbral blaze
What's up with all the joke roles? I though there was a rule against that.
fathom fulcrum
@umbral blaze Which?
umbral blaze
I think in the old mod code
I don't mind that much, I just hope it's temporary since it's kinda confusing
And also makes glad seem like a more exclusive group
sand bramble
It's a thing we've been doing for Christmas for 3 years now, it'll be gone at the end of the day, and since everyone can ask for one, I don't think anyone will feel left out.
umbral blaze
Oh I was more reffering to what hecke and Lillie have got
sand bramble
Both of those have already been deleted.
umbral blaze
Oh okay, nevermind then, sorry
lime sparrow
This isn’t really a suggestion per se, but I noticed that #announcements always takes ages to load on my laptop, and I assume it’s that “follow” feature that’s causing it
sand bramble
On the Factorio server they fixed that by removing reactions from all messages. Those are probably the culprit here too.
peak holly
:0 arrem plays factorio
lucid ledge
is that really surprising
peak holly
no, not really
gloomy matrix
Observation: mentioning something in here appears to up the user participation in that thing. E.g. there are now a bunch of people contributing to ToTD after its lack of activity / pferd was the only one contributing was discussed in here
wild aurora
I believe that‘s because it‘s no longer a group but a regular channel that is open to everyone
lime sparrow
though we’re also seing more low-effort contributions imo
still, there’s also more good ones
lucid ledge
What's your idea of a high level contribution 
static pulsar
What do you mean low effort?
sand bramble
Well there were a few posts which were wrong or incomplete, which is indeed not optimal.
static pulsar
ahh
peak holly
or just a dump of dozens of words out of context
restive trail
A counting channel that people count in german numbers :) it would help in practicing it
and we could make it just an event that lasts a week or something
wild aurora
umbral blaze
I bet syro would be the first to mess up
lucid ledge
Honestly
wild aurora
Einz
lucid ledge
BAN SYRO TIME 
lime sparrow
What's your idea of a high level contribution
something well formatted, informative and interesting
lucid ledge
By who's standards I mean lmao
lime sparrow
mine
gritty geyser
Selfies channel ^^
fathom fulcrum
To make suggestions you must use the >suggest command. @gritty geyser
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
gritty geyser
There we go
static pulsar
It will be rejected.
gritty geyser
can you hear me?
umbral blaze
Just to add my two cents, I actually agree with Sascha that some of the contributions were pretty low effort by my standards as well.
Quick question: why does syro's message with 16 stars only appear on stargazing with 2 stars?
gritty geyser
what would be the point of a selfie channel?
tacit relic
self doxxing
lime sparrow
seing your beautiful faces
lucid ledge
Lillie just wants 500 emote of her again 
umbral blaze
ill trade two hecke selfies for a base one
lucid ledge
I'll trade a base selfie for a pot of greed
umbral blaze
What does pot of greed do?
unkempt socket
Lillie just wants 500 emote of her again
lofty oracle
Wir wollen Fickflasche
umbral blaze
Adding to the totd discussion: many of these posts are also just random vocab which at least in my understanding goes against the group. I personally don't think totd having only 2-5 posts a day is a bad thing if those are actually interesting and not just level A vocab lists.
peak holly
yeah the point (in the original suggestion I made to create such a thing) is exactly that there should be relatively few entries a day, but they should be useful (or interesting, if not both)
if there's few of them, one could research entries and learn something. If it's just a dump of random stuff in huge quantities there's no real way to use it other than maybe scanning through it and hoping something randomly sticks
sand bramble
I can agree with the long list thing, but I think lower level content isn't necessarily bad, for the sake of level As.
peak holly
as long as it's not low effort, i agree that there's nothing bad with content that non-As would already know
static pulsar
I dont see an issue with A level vocabs being posted
peak holly
low effort isn't even a good way to put it, because imo even something like "Word of the day: der Spaghettilöffel." is acceptable
and so would be a thematic list of a few words related to each other, such as names of cooking utensils
but a dump of random words isn't acceptable, be them basic words or exotic ones
lucid ledge
I agree with maple and arrem, this is a server for learners of all levels. What's interesting for higher levels or natives will naturally be different
May I suggest a format for totd posts?
Like the one me and pferd mostly use
It may make things cleaner
sand bramble
It absolutely would but enforcing something like that is the big hard.
peak holly
the way i've done it with my bot it publishes them as embeds and has commands to add entries to it and publish them periodically
so one wanted, the channel could be restricted so that only the bot can post there and all entries would have to go through the bot, enforcing format and even pace
sand bramble
What's your command format? The format Horse uses is a bit complex.
lucid ledge
@sand bramble we can do it the same way we enforced writing
I agree with arrem where it does sound complex and leaves room for mistakes
sand bramble
Say do it like this and then have one guy complain about it for 2 months? 
lucid ledge
Plus it makes it a little more inaccessible to new posters, something we wanted to heavily discourage with making it public
@sand bramble but they're so much fun 
sand bramble
I mean, we could define a format, encourage it and say if you don't stick to it, curators might repost your post themselves.
wild aurora
I believe that restricting posts to one word or expression would suffice tbh
it's still suitable for all levels and you don't get this dump of vocab lists anymore, hopefully people will put a bit more effort into the post this way
bringing the bot into this makes it more complicated than it has to be imo
sand bramble
You're just saying that because you don't want to code it. We'll just have henko do it.
lucid ledge
you better give me all the 20 cents in the world for that
wild aurora
I meant more complicated for members
peak holly
What's your command format? The format Horse uses is a bit complex.
it's basically
language input_string
where input_string istype|content(|extra). type becomes "<type> of the day" (like "Word" = "Word of the day"), content is the thing itself, and extra is an optional explanation that could contain the translation or examples.
The first arg is language because my bot is made to support multiple languages at the same time. The rest of the input could be made to support translations and examples explicitly to format them in a specific way
i keep this format because i want to easily be able to add multiple entries in one go, but i could also easily make an interactive command that prompts the user for data step by step. With my bot i'm the only one adding entries at least for now, but if i opened it to the public i'd go the interactive way
wild aurora
@umbral blaze btw to answer your question, #announcements is an ignored channel so the bot only counted the stars from arrem and pferd since mods bypass the ignore
lapis nymph
our stars are the most important ones anyway
lucid ledge
lmfao
lapis nymph
@gritty geyser Danke für deinen Vorschlag. Bitte gib Vorschläge mit dem Kommando >suggest ein. Eine Erklärung, wie dein Vorschlag Deutschlernen dienen könnte, wäre auch ganz nett.
gritty geyser
suggest
Philosophy role :3 and maybe a channel for it. This will be advantageous for many people on this server because there’s so many philosophical works in german that interests students worldwide, and I think they’re most likely going to be on that channel to ask questions and incentivize learning around that theme specifically.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
lapis nymph
ich bedanke mich bei dir 💋 @umbral blaze
gloomy matrix
suggest a lieb emote
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
sand bramble
What is a lieb emote?
wild aurora
Heyo memes, the next big feature we would like to port over to the new bot is the FAQ system. How do you feel about the current one ? Is there anything that could potentially be changed and/or improved ?
Would be nice to hear some of your thoughts on it uwu
wild aurora
yes
fathom fulcrum
Ja. He wrote it himself.
mossy gulch
Ahh I see
gloomy matrix
suggest advanced reading session - b1+ that is an easier book like harry potter but the goal isn't to translate into english but to try and explain/rephrase concepts using german.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
gritty geyser
@gloomy matrix wie bitte :D ?
gloomy matrix
eine forgeschrittene lesengruppe, in der ein einfacher Buch z. B Harry Topfer gelesen wird und das Ziel ist nicht das Buch auf English zu übersetzen, sondern Begriffe und Konzepte auf Deutsch zu erklären :p
fathom fulcrum
It might be hard to do something like that with books.
It would make more sense to get texts which have some comprehension questions alongside them, I think.
Like what you might read in your native language class (English class for us, for example).
gloomy matrix
good idea
fathom fulcrum
Although stuff like that probably exists for books like Harry Potter. But I mean moreso, you know, you won't get through much of the story.
Rather discussing excerpts.
Or reading before the group and then coming back to discuss.
gloomy matrix
also things like how would you describe Umhänge in german
fathom fulcrum
Umhang? Like a wizardly cloak?
gloomy matrix
yeah
fathom fulcrum
Are you saying you want a lesson about how to use vocab? Or a lesson where people try to describe nouns in German?
gloomy matrix
the point being to work on communicating ideas using other words without having to rely on a bilingual dictionary
fathom fulcrum
Realistically I think you will have a hard time running a session where people aren't allowed to use a dictionary.
A lot of people want to expand their vocab, more so than just use what they already know.
gloomy matrix
but it would be learning new words. just learning them in terms of german rather than in terms of the english equivalent. like looking up a word in the duden instead of dict.cc
fathom fulcrum
So people could use a dictionary for their descriptions? Just not using the original word?
gloomy matrix
i suppose so. as long as their like learning umhang = eine langere Kleidung, die einen Zauberer um dem hals und am Rücken trägt... rather than umhang = cloak
and the point of it being advanced but with a simpler text would be that the people there don't need to rely so heavily on a dictionary to begin with
fathom fulcrum
Are you going to host it?
gloomy matrix
i could give it a shot
gritty geyser
whait with the dictionary
gloomy matrix
assuming that's a question of ideas are good but people rarely are willing to get sweaty for their ideas rather than a question of are you qualified - i'm not sure i am but for the sake of we can't expect hecke and mods to do everytjing for us i'm willing to try
gritty geyser
becaise sometimes, thats not what you actually want to know
static pulsar
my german is fetal german
gritty geyser
not sure if interrupting sth. here , but it will help you alot to have someone to ask, if sth. you read at a dictionary is really the thing you wanted to be clarified
fathom fulcrum
You don't have to be advanced at German to run a session, sunset, so don't worry about it. Most likely you will have at least on native speaker in the session anyway.
Especially when you're talking about a session for advanced speakers, because once you're at that point, you have a lot of responsibility for your own learning and should be able to learn responsibly with someone of the same level.
gloomy matrix
and it wpuld also be a good way to practice speaking your own german sentences without the potluck that vc is. e.g. the wie geht's loop, the mods are asleep so lets get political or other bitch fests, and the reduced anxiety that this is a structured learning session provides. because nur-deutsch can still be super intimidating at times
also rip thumb typing essays on mobile
fathom fulcrum
Yes, anyone is welcome to host such a session any time.
Although it's worth noting that Practice Room is essentially that, but 24/7.
gloomy matrix
can anyone request a ping for the reading roles or should i just pop a post in lessons?
- regardless i'll think if times and write something up when i'm back home so either the other side of tonigh (5th) or tomorrow (6th) after sleep depending on how tired i am when i get home
sand bramble
To prevent abuse, not everyone can by default, but we're happy to give permissions to anyone who asks, so just get in touch with us when you know more. (Vor allem whether you're targeting Reading or Advancedreading)
gloomy matrix
Suggestion: make sunset gayer
sand bramble
@lucid ledge please implement
lucid ledge
@gloomy matrix babe come over my parents arent home
gloomy matrix
nyoom
wet python
suggest Hello, can we please have a channel for missconceptions and false friends that learners here have encountered themselves while learning, because others might encounter them as well.
Like:
Macht comes not from machen but from *mögen *
Hospitalismus is not Hospitality but hospitalism(psychology)
...
preferably slow-mode^^
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
wet python
wait how can I delete a suggstion?.. i think that was unnecessary
lofty oracle
.>suggest allow users to delete their own suggestions
fathom fulcrum
Huh, what's wrong with #thing-of-the-day for that? @wet python
lofty oracle
But really is there no way to delete a suggestion if you changed your mind or made a mistake?
wet python
@fathom fulcrum it would be great if they are pinned there.. because they are relatively important
fathom fulcrum
But you could argue that thousands of things are important enough to be pinned, by that reasoning.
It's not really possible to explicitly highlight everything.
@lofty oracle Sure there is. Just ping the mods and tell them about it and they can just reject it or whatever.
lofty oracle
Without bothering the mods, I mean
wet python
they have a big heart
fathom fulcrum
Its not a big deal. It's not like people post suggestions and take it back very often.
Maybe this is even the first time ever.
wet python
I see what you mean there, but my point is: why I think they are relatively important is when someone sees a word that is similar to another english/french or german word, then she/he will just assume she/he knows it without bothering to look it up in a dictionary or whereever
and then turns out they have a total different meaning
fathom fulcrum
Then perhaps a more important thing to highlight is the importance of learning the language without making assumptions.
fathom fulcrum
Danke.
midnight wolfBOT
@wet python, your suggestion has been rejected:
wet python
*insert pepesad*
gritty geyser
Nice
umbral blaze
Not a concrete suggestion per se, but seeing hecke's messages on astrophysics made think on whether there is any general interest from members of GLaD to have/make this kinda thing for more topics since I personally find it super interesting to see what other people here are passionate about. If there is such an interest, im also wondering if the mod team could do something about making such quality stuff more visible.
What I mean are a series of messages which start here https://canary.discordapp.com/channels/221708975698083841/305746952929280001/664100755065798656
hexed dew
I do not know how to do that, but on another server I'm in, there is a text channel hidden per voice channel existing, and they only appear when you enter the related voice channel. I think it would be better than having one text channel that is called "voice-chat"
wind lodge
Never seen that before
hexed dew
Actually, it's done thanks to a bot that the server owner coded
fathom fulcrum
@hexed dew Why better?
hexed dew
it would make the conversations easier to follow if each voice channel had its text channel
fathom fulcrum
How so?
wind lodge
What you could do that would be much simpler is put each voice channel with its text channel in a group and you could just minimize it. But that will result in too many channels I think.
hexed dew
which is why they're hidden until you join the related voice channel
wind lodge
I'm assuming the bot assigns you a certain role? Either way it seems like too much work for too little benefit.
hexed dew
for instance, when Thib shared his pictures earlier in #voice-chat, if he had a #study-group-2 chat, he could have sent them over there
no, the bot doesn't assign any role. this is why I do not understand how it's done
the bot even tracks who joins / leaves the channels
fathom fulcrum
Sure, but I'm just curious what's the benefit of posting it in a dedicated channel vs #voice-chat
Currently our reason for only having 2 channels is that you rarely have both channels used at the same time, let alone 6-7 channels.
Even if 4 VCs needed to use them at the same time, it's fairly easy for 2 conversations to fit in one channel, right?
But if you have some other comments or ideas, feel free to share them.
peak holly
the only reasons i can think of are (relative) privacy and blocking interference from people who aren't in the voice channel
anything else would be solved by having more voicechat text channels, if there were a need for those
hexed dew
it was more of a QoL suggestion than a required one, if that makes sense
I just felt like, knowing it was possible, I could share it there
fathom fulcrum
Makes sense. I mean, even if something might not fit the server in the end, we always appreciate hearing the feedback and ideas.
midnight wolfBOT
@gloomy matrix, your suggestion has been accepted:
lime sparrow
isn’t the lovely member hosting it literally sunset themselves
wild aurora
yes that's the joke
gritty geyser
uhm since we're talking in #general about books... how about a simple recommendation channel where a command is implented to reccomend a book and give a short discription.... not for chat /discussion...but i mean sth. like "command feature > hey i can reccomemd regarding x topic because y and it's maybe ok for level abc "... not sure if sth. like this is of interest to anyone or not just a thought
fathom fulcrum
@gritty geyser Yeah, we have channels for that. #resources and #archived-media
Btw make sure to use the >suggest command to make suggestions.
gritty geyser
oh ok thanks didn't know/realized those 2 were used for it, the second point was on purpose (this time lol) so it's not a duplicate and can be closed quickly .. and you did thx :)
midnight wolfBOT
@upper prairie, your suggestion has been rejected:
@gritty geyser, your suggestion has been rejected:
@gritty geyser, your suggestion has been rejected:
wild aurora
do you see a meme channel ?
gloomy matrix
sand bramble
or a broob channel
lucid ledge
gritty geyser
That’s just one name of a philosopher
Bro, believe me when I say philosophy enthusiasts make up 1/4th of this server (probably.)
Yet you guys got a science role but no philosophy role (disgraceful!)
lucid ledge
kant is also german
gritty geyser
Yeah
wild aurora
okay on a serious note: mentions of a certain word are not a good indicator for what topics are discussed on a server, it's just not valid at this point
gloomy matrix
then all of the server are sex enthusiasts
lucid ledge
yeah what if the next 45 pages just say 'Philosophy sucks'
gloomy matrix
so is sex
gritty geyser
It’s like something you actually study.
gloomy matrix
so is sex
gritty geyser
Lol, whatever clown
lucid ledge
tbh this server talks more about sex than phiosophy
fathom fulcrum
@gritty geyser You are always very welcome to discuss philosophy in any of the discussion channels. What we mean by "discussed a lot" is more so "discussed so much that no one else can even have a conversation". That was the case with #science, hence why a separate channel was made for that.
gritty geyser
How about this:
Create a channel that ONLY those with a specific (Philosophy) role have access to.
It will not be visible to other members (so it won’t create a clutter.)
Consider it. 🙂
fathom fulcrum
Yes, that is the suggestion that we already rejected.
midnight wolfBOT
@gloomy matrix, your suggestion has been rejected:
gloomy matrix
:(
midnight wolfBOT
@gloomy matrix, your suggestion has been rejected:
tacit relic
suggest some cute special roles for helpful members like Susana and Directing UwU
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
delicate hawk
Purple is pretty active too.
And roman amd starbreeze are also there almost eveyday to help people.
gloomy matrix
suggest When a formally organised / prearranged and not spontaneous lesson is happening in the lessons VC have a mod or session holder temporarily rename the channel to E.g. Lessons Beginner+ or Lessons - Intermediate+ or maybe Current Lesson - Beginner+ all depending on the chat name length limits and how much gets displayed.
That way it's a bit more clear what's happening in the lessons channel and there's less of having to have that awkward conversation of 'you started learning german last week so tbh you probably are gonna have no idea what's going on right now', and on the other end of things, to signify to beginners that this something they'd specifically want to join in on.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
gloomy matrix
what the channels could potentially temporarily be renamed to is very variable and up for working on, but I do think it would be handy to have a more obvious way to signify that a planned lesson or reading session is currently going on. E.g. rename to Beginner Lesson or All Levels Reading Session etc
sand bramble
Could be done. We can just give session holders the permission to change the channel name, but we might also experiment with a bot-based approach, which would automatically reset the name once the channel is empty or something like that.
peak holly
or once all session holders leave, since some people probably stay even after the session is done
lime sparrow
put it on a delay tho, just in case the holder has to go afk for a minute or sth
lapis nymph
bitte mach deinen Vorschlag mit: >suggest
midnight wolfBOT
❌ Bad argument: text is a required argument that is missing.
stable kettle
suggest Ich denke das ihr einen Chat machen sollst mit dem Name „Umgangssprachlich”. Damit konnte die Deutschlerner(innen) rausfinden wie man echt spricht
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
fathom fulcrum
We have #dialects for discussions about dialects (and you could discuss slang here too) and #thing-of-the-day where people post interesting stuff, including slang. You're also welcome to discuss or use slang anywhere else in the server where discussions are allowed.
Is there something that those don't cover?
@stable kettle
stable kettle
Nope thanks
static pulsar
suggest putting something in the rules that protects vampires from bros hate, and lets them know that they are indeed welcome here
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
umbral blaze
suggest banning maple for abusing the command
lofty oracle
I wonder if mods are seriously discussing it
peak holly
suggest add this emoji instead of one of the other trillion useless ones kthxbye
https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/637959069738598400.png
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
unkempt socket
static pulsar
I like galaxythink more than headtap
gritty geyser
suggest A role which is something like „Hardcore“, in which messages in your native language are deleted. E.g. people learning German can basically only send messages in German, and vice versa? Idk if that makes sense or is possible (probably a bot idk) Just thought it‘d be cool
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
peak holly
let me tell you right now that it'd be a ton of expensive work to make that work, and it would still be error prone ^^"
fathom fulcrum
Yeah, it would be too difficult to do automatically. And I think it's fair to expect people to decide their own limitations.
I'm sure if you let a mod know, they can overmeme you for a week every time you don't use German.
static pulsar
LOL
gritty geyser
Yes please "overmeme" me haha.
@fathom fulcrum I am letting you know as a) you are a mod and b) you can o v e r m e m e me.
lime sparrow
sounds kinda pointless, you can look that up in a dictionary
and we have a dictionary lookup iirc
wild aurora
the lookup command is still broken and doesn't feature the gender but it might in the future yeah
gritty geyser
suggest can we get sth. like a #tech channel ( regardless the language) for discussing stuff regarding some general hw/sw topics without bugging general or other channels ?
fathom fulcrum
@gritty geyser Any reason why you can't use #general-2 for that?
gritty geyser
@fathom fulcrum regarding the current topic about smarthphones, their OS, and the cost i just feel it' doesn't belong there and might interrupt others discussing sth real # "allgemeines/general"
fathom fulcrum
#general-2 is specifically made so people can use it if they don't want to interrupt #general
gritty geyser
so i thought a "tech"-channel would be sth. for topics like this, because i think people want to discuss other topics in those chanels ( but it might be only me 🙂 )
fathom fulcrum
No one really uses #general-2 so feel free to use it.
gritty geyser
hello, i am new here but have a suggestion. what do you all think about a channel where you say something in german but it has the english translation beneath it? would that be helpful to anyone else?
fathom fulcrum
Hmm, why do you feel that would be beneficial?
And what happens if someone doesn't know the translation of what they want to say?
gritty geyser
i just think consistent exposure to both translations would be a little helpful to new learners. i suppose since the channel is specific to that, the person communicating in it could use google translator to accommodate for it. just my thoughts on it.
that would help me a lot. sometimes I write in German and I am not sure if the other person understands what I am saying. So I write the English version too. would be awesome to get feedback if what I said in German == what I meant in English
plus if you're new like me it would be nice to see the actual structure of the sentences
in comparison to english
fathom fulcrum
Hmm, regarding Google translate, we specifically discourage using translators in most cases. It's a bad habit that harms people's learning most of the time.
gritty geyser
that makes sense.
magic jasper
We have something like that. See the weekly writing prompts. They are accompanied by the translations. @gritty geyser
You can probably post that on #thing-of-the-day
midnight wolfBOT
@tacit relic, your suggestion has been rejected:
@gloomy matrix, your suggestion has been accepted:
@stable kettle, your suggestion has been rejected:
@static pulsar, your suggestion has been rejected:
@gritty geyser, your suggestion has been rejected:
peak holly
suggest include the suggestion itself in the reply embed, even with a character limit, just as long as the concept can be grasped without having to jump around.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
lime sparrow
I second that because quite often the links seem to be dead
dunno if that’s because something messes up or because the user deleted the suggestion
wild aurora
do you happen to have an example of it in mind ?
lime sparrow
first one of that batch
ah wait it works now
may be a client-side problem
still I’ve run into issues with these embeds not taking me to the suggestion
tacit relic
suggest piratedoggo2 emoji: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/221708975698083841/661183488954859561/ucc2.png
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
sinful kiln
suggest Just a thought, perhaps separating German-speaking voice channels by level of comprehension? (A, B, C)
gloomy matrix
that was already suggested a few days ago
magic jasper
Can't wait for the rejection reasons :)
static pulsar
Same, lol
smoky helm
Beginner channel 👀
glacial stump
use the >suggest command
ornate gale
suggest
midnight wolfBOT
❌ Bad argument: text is a required argument that is missing.
smoky helm
suggest beginner channel
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
smoky helm
suggest making #suggestions much higher in the channel list. It'll be harder for people to find this channel and it in a way discourages suggestions from people. Nothing wrong with having it up top.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
lime sparrow
that’s a feature, not a bug
smoky helm
I never said if was a bug
ornate gale
suggest 玫瑰是紅色，葉子是綠色，我不會說瑞典語，您必須了解...
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
lime sparrow
suggest (without using the command cause I’m no spammer) that this be considered spam
lofty oracle
Even if it actually was a serious suggestion but in a language no one understands
I mean we could call umu
lime sparrow
it says, according to google translate, roses are red, violets are blue, I don’t speak swedish, you must understand
lofty oracle
Yeah someone's getting the ban
lofty oracle
At least the suggest command ban
fathom fulcrum
Yeah, we don't ban people from the server for abusing bot commands or misusing channels, we just don't let them use the bot or certain channels anymore.
gritty geyser
Hi
The info thing says "For more information about CEFR levels, please see the pinned information in #general."
But there's nothing there, just a discord invite and a "happy birthday" to the sub
peak holly
go to #botchannel and type >explain cefr levels
suggest Fix: The info thing says "For more information about CEFR levels, please see the pinned information in #general."
But there's nothing there, just a discord invite and a "happy birthday" to the sub
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
gritty geyser
Thank you!
sand bramble
Yeah that's slightly outdated but we'll update it later today, since I don't dare touching info on my phone.
lime sparrow
I wonder why… what could possibly go wrong
midnight wolfBOT
@peak holly, your suggestion has been accepted:
peak holly
suggest Roles for native speakers and people living in DACH to indicate (if they want to) what area they're from, so that accent and regional expression/grammar can be inferred without having to ask every time.
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
lime sparrow
I feel like that goes in the same direction as the dialect roles in that you have to wonder how specific you wanna go and how to reasonably indicate it
like say I have a role “switzerland”
assuming it doesn’t give a special color or anything
- how do I get it?
- who would look at it?
I mean people don’t notice the CH / swiss flag in my name…
peak holly
- with the bot. There is a command for getting roles already
- I would. I'm sure many also look at the Native Speaker role without saying a thing even though we only notice the people who don't understand how roles work and have to ask explicitly
I mean people don’t notice the CH / swiss flag in my name…
i blame discord's font choice for not supporting actual flags there (at least on windows desktop).
Also if anything, this is an argument for having that information elsewhere too
wild aurora
ofc this is a bit of an exaggeration but I think you get the idea and see what's potentially problematic about this
lime sparrow
I mean I don’t think it’s useful to go into detail
if such a thing was implemented I think narrowing it down to ≤10 macro-regions would be best
wild aurora
also Native Speaker is only assigned by mods in order to prevent abuse, by going for a bot based approach we wouldn't even have the opportunity to check the legitimacy of it
lime sparrow
like all of switzerland can be one area, austria and bavaria another and the rest I don’t know well :P
you could make the command only available to natives, if it was supposed to indicate “I am a speaker of this region”. or make it independent of speaker level and just say “I associate with this region” (e.g. live there, want to move there, want to learn how people speak there)
both would be sensible imo
peak holly
@wild aurora below you can see a simplification of the situation in italy. We have regional roles on the server and they work well:
when more granularity than just the region is needed, it's rare enough that it's no problem to ask about it, and it's generally its own conversation rather than a simple question that, to be asked, needs to interrupt an existing one
lime sparrow
if one went purely off dialects, this map would provide about seven groupings, but I don’t know how useful they’d really be cause there’s a distinction to be made e.g. between low saxon and the german spoken in that region
(and similarly e.g. grouping all of alemannic may be corerct from a genealogical standpoint, but the language attitude is drastically different across the border)
I think regions would make more sense than dialects
cause most speakers here don’t identify as speaking a dialect anyway
whereas everyone lives in a region
wild aurora
I'm afraid it's not as simple as shown in the map yeah :/
peak holly
friendly reminder that my suggestion wasn't to add roles about dialects
lime sparrow
I don’t know germany well enough to split it into regions
peak holly
there are things called bundesländer
lime sparrow
are they a good indicator of things? aren’t a few of them just single cities?
wild aurora
Yeah they are
peak holly
they're a decent enough indicator for these purposes
lime sparrow
you might wanna group some together probably
peak holly
you don't say "I don't understand people who come from this exact area [uploads picture of map coordinates]". You say "I don't understand people from BaWü"
you don't have to overcomplicate things where precision isn't needed, you know :)
lime sparrow
I propose switzerland get two roles - ”zürich” and ”actual switzerland”
wild aurora
I don't know, personally I just think adding this many roles just clutters the role list unnecessarily while providing minimal additional value
Often enough people don't even realize who's native and who's not, they don't bother looking at roles
peak holly
i addressed that exact argument before
lime sparrow
I’d be a bit annoyed at making roles for bundesländer specifically cause I get a feeling I won’t be getting a Graubünden tag but a Switzerland tag
whereas with “regions” that’d be better :P
peak holly
you only notice people who don't bother looking at roles, you don't notice those who do because they don't say anything, having already gotten the info they wanted silently. It's a textbook example of selection bias
lime sparrow
(I understand the fact that making a role for each swiss canton would be absolutely silly)
wild aurora
Well you're assuming that they do, you can't say for certain
peak holly
honestly even something as simple as {"Switzerland", "Austria", "Southern Germany", "Central Germany", "Northern Germany"} would be kinda fine
and don't give me the "too many roles" thing on a server where meme roles are a thing
wild aurora
Which one of our current roles are meme roles ? they are only temporary for like a few days at max but whatever
While this seems like a reasonable approach at first I think it's a bit misleading at a second glance
I'd have to take the Northern Germany role in this example and there's no way I would ever say I speak Norddeutsch lmao
lime sparrow
and I don’t think that should be the expectation
peak holly
northern germany doesn't mean norddeutsch
lime sparrow
but you still do things more like other people from northern germany and less like, e.g. me
peak holly
i mean, technically it doesn't even mean you speak german. Under my original suggestion you could very well be a level A who lives in northern germany
wild aurora
Okay yeah that's fair, but I do neither
peak holly
in my experience, natives don't often notice their own regional biases very easily
i.e. if any native speaker here told me they speak perfect hochdeutsch i'd consider them arrogant and not believe them
lime sparrow
I’d ask them to define that word and then inevitably get into an argument
wild aurora
Oh yeah of course there will always be some regional influence
I'm just saying that it's difficult to agree on a set of roles that caters to everyone or at least to the majority
Because if you don't have that, people will either assign themselves a "wrong" role which kinda makes it obsolete or won't use them at all
So if you want to have some accuracy you inevitably have to go into detail and then we're back at 48506736 roles :/
And tbh I think we can just agree to disagree here :D Maybe we can have some input from others too later on
peak holly
i mean i don't care too much about this feature, i just think it's useful proportionally to how much overhead it adds (= not much, imo). On the italian server there are plenty of cases where a native user says stuff that is only really valid in their area and it's useful to be able to click on their name and see where they're from. We do it because we know those roles are there and have been for a while, and we have 20 of them (one per italian region, despite the situation being worse than what i showed with the map above)
like, one of the other mods of the server comes from my same region but when we speak sicilian we are barely able to understand each other, that's how different language gets within just one region, and yet the Sicily role is and has been useful plenty a time
gritty geyser
suggest streaming in gaming channel
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
umbral blaze
Could you elaborate on that? As in allow it or as in encourage it to happen?
gloomy matrix
also re: regional roles: there are natives here who don't even have the native role. I think the number of people who are A. are willing to narrow down their physical location, and B. are arsed enough to read the rules and info to know such roles exist would consist of only a subset of the server regulars which you could probably count with just just your fingers and maybe also toes
lucid ledge
^
lime sparrow
there are also about 10 natives here who are consistently active, though, so the math works out
and of those I’m pretty sure all have shared their rough location
gritty geyser
most of the "active" natives are never in vc tho
lucid ledge
gloomy matrix
informal suggestion: change the server to dutch learning and discussion for april fools
gloomy matrix
is that why you're no longer a mod lol?
lucid ledge
yes 
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
wise salmon
suggest more bots like mee6 or even music bots
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
fathom fulcrum
@wise salmon It's best if you tell us the specific features you want, rather than specific bots. We will implement useful features on our own bot.
lucid ledge
Just a comment cos I know that mods have been busy lately but reimplantation of the music feature would be really swell, it's sorely missed :(
fathom fulcrum
Np, feel free (everyone) to mention specific bot features you want. We won't implement everything but it's useful for us to know what's wanted.
sand bramble
Agreed. Currently, we plan an incremental replacement and we're focusing on the moderation and management commands (e.g. groups, filters, faq etc.), but once that's done we can give some attention to the less essential ones too and prioritizing by what's used most would make sense.
gritty basin
I dont know how many people prepares for testdaf but could you create a chat room for testdaf?
kind glacier
Um, I guess sending a DM to Freddy Faulig is not the best way of pointing out an error I've come across in one of the bot responses...?
fathom fulcrum
@gritty basin We won't create a channel just for testdaf. But if you have testdaf-specific questions, you may ask them in #archived-culture-study-visa, and if you have questions about the test itself, e.g. grammar questions, you can use #questions , or to work together with people e.g. doing a practice exam together or discussing how to answer a question, you can use #beginner-german .
@kind glacier No. You can DM or ping one of the moderators and let them know.
kind glacier
Fine, didn't want to bother you, but here goes: there is a mistake in the entry for "beide":
- Die beide sind verlobt. (they are engaged to one another)
Should be "Die beiden sind verlobt.
:)
@fathom fulcrum
fathom fulcrum
Okay, thanks.
peak holly
I've corrected the faq, thank you
lime sparrow
(noting that imo the original one is also grammatical but means "these are both engaged (to some other people)")
umbral blaze
Oh really? To me it still sounds ungrammatical, even in that case.
Guess I should actually look up the rules
peak holly
i think it's because he interpreted "die" as a demonstrative (which would only make it work informally)
umbral blaze
Hmh I don't understand why that would change the meaning then
midnight wolfBOT
@peak holly, your suggestion has been accepted:
@smoky helm, your suggestion has been rejected:
@smoky helm, your suggestion has been rejected:
@ornate gale, your suggestion has been rejected:
@peak holly, your suggestion has been rejected:
@native crown, your suggestion has been rejected:
@grave glade, your suggestion has been accepted:
@wise salmon, your suggestion has been rejected:
peak holly
re: "noun declination" command: please don't give it the name declination, because it's wrong ._.
sand bramble
Noun declinition, got it chief.
peak holly
i'm not a chef
peak holly
inflection is a more generic term, it would require the reader to extract from context
static pulsar
Inflection is when you injure yourself and then dont sanitize and the site gets inflected
peak holly
i hate you
static pulsar
;_;
peak holly
jk 🤗
lime sparrow
they just have to give you permissions so I suppose it boils down to how much they trust you
sand bramble
No, as a session holder you have it per default.
magic jasper
Yaaassss
hexed dew
suggest move this channel below #introductions
midnight wolfBOT
Thank you, your suggestion has been submitted!
fathom fulcrum
@hexed dew How come?