ik-2

[carmine gate]

I've been putting my arms in an A-pose for elbows

[robust tangle]

Where are the five IMU’s located?

[carmine gate]

waist, thighs, legs

[robust tangle]

No shoulders then

[tight aurora]

you can also have more than 5

[carmine gate]

and upper body parts are planned in the future

it's just a matter of adding them to the software

[robust tangle]

Since the hands are tracked absolutely with controllers

Rotation hints for the upper arms will probably work very well

[carmine gate]

yea

[tight aurora]

upper body is difficult because fk mixed with ik is a pain

[robust tangle]

I’m curious how well foot tracking works in slime VR without an absolute foot position tracker

[tight aurora]

quite well

[carmine gate]

when you have extensions on the feet to get their rotation, it works better, otherwise, it's still really good, but there's some noticeable sliding

[robust tangle]

I imagine if you do a dance that keeps your feet planted they may drift around a little

[carmine gate]

yeah basically

[tight aurora]

the more sensors the better the tracking with slime

[robust tangle]

Are the IMU’s rotation only? because they would know that they aren’t translatiobal acceleration at the moment and could be assumed stationary

To reduce drift

Oh it’s forward K never mind

[drifting steeple]

yes and off the the other one

[clever thicket]

i honestly want this bug to stay

thats funny as hell

[zenith glacier]

interesting, i will check that out

[wet crag]

Added a toggle to measure avatar scale by either arm-span or by height guessing this is for the editor? If so, fucking praise be! Making my avatar my real life height will no longer be a chore

[clever thicket]

it's an in-game toggle

[robust tangle]

This is an in-game thing for how it determines world scale. Let’s say you have an extremely tall avatar with minuscule cartoonishly short arms.

Scale by width will make your arms match your real ones and you will just feel like you are on stilts

Scale by height will make you feel as if you are normal height but your real arms will far over-reach your avatars t-Rex arms.

You get to choose which you prefer

[wet crag]

Oooooooh that's still pretty cool

[robust tangle]

For most avatars that are realistically proportioned you won’t see a major difference between the two settings

[wet crag]

Thank yooou

[high nest]

it's something lots of people have been emulating by futzing with user real height for years but it's great to see it finally supported as an option

trying out new avatars will no longer be a chore

[robust tangle]

Provided people actually put in their real heights

[high nest]

no reason not to anymore

(also VRC could potentially measure it by head-to-foot-tracker distance during calibration...?)

[robust tangle]

With scale by height the only variable becomes whether or not your floor height is set correctly in your play space

[tawdry glen]

Big numbers go brrrrr

[carmine gate]

haha setting floor level correctly on rift be like
[timelapse video of redoing entire guardian then using ovras space fix with dream speedrun music on top]

everytime I accidentally move a sensor

[robust tangle]

Oculus devices historically have been absolutely awful at both floor height calibration and also remembering it later

[carmine gate]

as long as I dont move anything, it can be stable for months

[robust tangle]

Especially OG Rift on 3 sensors, the 3 cameras would keep adjusting their positions relative to themselves in a triangle and all three world eventually drift off from origin over the course of days lol

[carmine gate]

I don't have that ever

[robust tangle]

They didn’t peg one as absolute origin for some reason. They might have fixed it. It’s been years

[carmine gate]

There were definitely some changes to constellation gen1 at some point

[brazen condor]

@oak pendant I'm still noting some floor sinkage even after the patch and trying the options. What options should I look into to make sure this is the same issue?

I redid my room calibration as well as remeasured my height to make sure, I'm still sinking 4-5 inches into the ground

[dusk anvil]

plus gives a reason to move to sdk3
(jk pls fix)

[mint abyss]

I haven't tested it out, namely because I'm unable to use VRChat for a week, but do trackers 're-initialize' automatically if you happen to turn on trackers after launching VRChat?

[final raven]

I assume a bit of documentation will be made for IK 2.0 once it's ready to finally get pushed to live to help the more general community understand all the settings and nuances for the system so they'll be able to get the most out of it~?

[mint abyss]

I recall having to restart VRChat if you didn't turn your trackers on before you launched VRC

[dusk anvil]

https://twitter.com/Kung_VR/status/1498560436731785217?t=PQ2NfhmJzcUIkkEOdykw_A&s=19
kung i see you cropping out your height in this tweet

Kung (@Kung_VR)

VRChat IK2.0 Beta version 11702 update is out now!

• Allow more forward shoulder reach
• Adjust Lock Head mode to favor less hip movement
• Added a toggle to measure avatar scale by either arm-span or by height https://t.co/jke60W6uvP

Likes

595

Retweets

194

Twitter · Mar 1, 2022, 7:27 AM

[zenith glacier]

didnt had to do that for over a year now at least

[mint abyss]

you could probably do some math or trig because of how the VRC menu works assuming he is using the avatar he always does to determine his height.

nvm

i forget your avatars don't scale to your real height

yet

[dusk anvil]

just commenting on that because the last time he showed that menu here his height setting was visible at "5 foot 7"

[mint abyss]

not bad

[dusk anvil]

haha short

(i am not taller)

[mint abyss]

my height is about as average as you can get

so i'm roughly two inches taller

I forget my height.

[tawdry glen]

I'm 5`8" lol.

[short vault]

hi

where do you download the beta?

[vagrant vector]

You can now subscribe to the IK-Beta on Steam, the same way you'd access the normal Open Beta. No password, it should just be available in the list. Check open-beta-info for instructions on how to opt-in to Steam betas. Short version-- right click VRChat, click Properties, go to the Beta tab.

[short vault]

huh cool

is it compatible with others too?

like non-beta

[vagrant vector]

The Ik beta is live compatible yeah

[short vault]

cool ty!

[robust tangle]

I should inform creators of blatantly bad rigs that are broken on the new IK that they should fix their stuff, right? These aren’t bugs?

Example: All Rexi base with their backwards chest

[silver geyser]

yeah that probably be a good idea

[carmine gate]

about that, I think once any rig requirements from the new IK are set in stone, we should have a 👍 from the devs, so that people can start officially testing/upgrading their avatar fleet

[coral cairn]

Same with scaling

[devout current]

wow does user real height scaling work well

[coral cairn]

It does what it does, your floor will line up 🙂
Depending on the avatar, your arms may feel too long or short

actually, I haven't tested this, does height scaling work with legacy IK?

[mint abyss]

wait, is that a real issue?

rexouiums are the staple of the fullbody community for a lot of people, if that's broken then .w.

[robust tangle]

Tosca bases as well

[mint abyss]

it is called an open beta for a reason

[robust tangle]

They’ve had years of people saying not to use rig hax though so yes they will probably need to be reuploaded. But old IK is going to be a choice for a while even on live for this reason.

[mint abyss]

i can undo rig hacks ^^

[ionic heron]

the rexonium bases have flipped hip bones for some reason - do they have flipped chest bones too?

don't even know what that'd ""fix""

[digital grove]

After seeing people "check" the rig requirements page and say with absolute conviction "yes I checked my avatar is correct!!!!" while being deadass wrong... I am not surprised anymore . some people go to ridiculous lengths to convince themselves they are in the right

[ionic heron]

also the rig requirements page also has a big banner at the top stating that it's significantly out of date

[devout current]

btw am I the only one who noticed that eyes are behaving a bit weird with the new IK?

[robust tangle]

What are you seeing

[digital grove]

I didn't see anything weird with the eyes

[timber grove]

I'm still confused. Can someone help me out? What do the FBT lock settings do?

Also, I have yet to try out the brand new 11702 beta out.

[carmine gate]

It's explained in the #open-beta-announcements chat, but let me try and dumb it down

[zenith glacier]

To be short:
Lock to hip: you hip tracker is always accurate, but your viewpoint may drift a little
Lock to head: your viewpoint is always accurate, but your hip can drift (depending on position a lot)
Lock to both: both are accurate and your avatar will bend in any way necessary to keep it

[carmine gate]

Lock Hip: Most people mode
Lock Head: Kinect mode
Lock all: Kung mode, nobody can make their avatar as good

[zenith glacier]

that one is a perfect description

[harsh lagoon]

could it be renamed to kung mode now

[tranquil cipher]

the different lock settings change how your spine works. Lock head/lock hips will both prevent spine crunching, but the compromise is that they let the non-locked point drift away from the tracker a bit.

Locked hips is similar to what it used to be, because it allows the head to drift away from the viewpoint. When sitting down, this can be particularly bad. But this mode is pretty good at looking fine to other people.

If you don't like the head drifting away from the viewpoint, you can use lock head, which will have the opposite problem: hips will drift. But for most people, that's less of a problem.

If you really need full fidelity, you can use lock all, but it requires that your avatar has pretty good proportions. If it's not perfect, it can get spine crunching which looks bad. You can tweak this and prevent it by changing how you calibrate though

[timber grove]

Thanks!

[zenith glacier]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/886367576194695229/948343995002675240/unknown.png

[coral cairn]

or immersive scaler 😉 (probably eventually works well enough for me)

[zenith glacier]

thats a comparison picture without upper chest (left) and with upper chest(right) in a resting position. It feels already more natural (dont mind the weightpaint please, its a 15 minute adjustment there and just for testing IK and my locomotion stuff)

[carmine gate]

tbh, lock head is a legit godsend with Kinect

because the 30hz hip, even with the damn fastest C++ code and interpolation in town

[robust tangle]

I’m still not sure how upper chest should be painted

[carmine gate]

is still lagging behind the 1000hz tracking on headsets

[robust tangle]

Or rather - how chest should be painted when upper chest exists

[carmine gate]

and lock head allows it to drift and catch up to you without making you look like a bobblehead

[zenith glacier]

i dont know about this as well, but from what people told me it is roughly under the armpits

[carmine gate]

I'm glad bobblehead mode is still an option though

[robust tangle]

Lock head is the most immersive setting for me. I use Vive trackers.

[coral cairn]

I'm glad they're somewhat open to having actual options for stuff now though. I was not expecting them to casually drop height scaling mode.

[robust tangle]

It just feels like 3 point with legs

[carmine gate]

lock head is pretty much the only thing I've been asking of VRChat for like a year now.

[timber grove]

Kung is a busy man. He works on VRChat on avatars 25 hours a day

[zenith glacier]

lock head in the pose i am showing in the pictures is a complete "no, it doesnt work) since it currently pushes the hips up

[coral cairn]

25 hours a day, 300 hours a week

[robust tangle]

12 days a week, apparently.

[timber grove]

wait a minute

[ionic heron]

kung otw to rip apart the fabric of spacetime:

[next gyro]

my elbows are still inside me, its better than live but still not realy good

[robust tangle]

Depending on how big your avatar is, and, uh… how large your chest is, it’s entirely possible that no angle will avoid clipping. Your hands will hit their IK target regardless.

[devout current]

When walking my eyes are moving up a tiny bit, they aren't doing that with legacy IK, I'll make a canny about it tomorrow with a video showing it

[solar sluice]

Need to make a video, but noticed a bug with an avatar that had dynamic bones set up for bewbs.
Bewbs flattened to make avatar male, dyn bone script turned (unticked in Unity) off, but bones still there in armature (i'm scared to touch armatures lest i break things).

When calibrating, one of the hand controllers, for a split second, grabs the bewb bones in the armature and drag the weights off into space, where they freeze as dyn bone script is turned off. (why controller tracking point's are grabbing 'anything' near the chest is beyond me, and doesn't happen in live.
Female avatars with dyn bone scripts turned on just see the tiniest of jiggles.

I'll make a breif video replicating bug later tonight.

knee tracking is neat tho

[next gyro]

my avatar isnt very small or very big. And its chest is pretty much flat

[timber grove]

I forgot to ask. Can you see other people in the IK beta or no?

[tranquil cipher]

yes, IK beta is live compatible

[timber grove]

sweet

[silver geyser]

basically it's a different client doing different ik and then it goes to the network so the live version doesn't particularly care that it's a different version

as it just sees bones going over the network

[strong oak]

I was listening to Skuld and thought this was talking about the updated menu, turns out its real, the placement is really click prone

[meager sand]

bruh vrc devs have been putting out so many betas lately

osc beta drops, and like the day after it goes live on the release version we get a new ik beta

[vital inlet]

Hey Im trying to access it but it says I need the code to unlock it

[final raven]

No code should be necessary. You should be able to access it from the drop down above the code input field.

[vital inlet]

Oh ok

[carmine gate]

This usually fixes any issues with betas

[solar sluice]

Back to this, i want to say nevermind, verifying integrity of game files after patching to IK beta in steam seems to have fixed +^_^+

[dusk anvil]

measure by height works a lot for me thx 4 adding that toggle

[oak pendant]

That's good to hear. I've been getting a lot of positive feedback on it. I'm actually considering it for the new default on release. It would be nice if I could get a bit of feedback on that idea, so I opened a post here: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feedback-requested-should-measure-avatar-by-height-be-the-new-default-on-release

If anyone is inclined please post your thoughts in that there.

[dusk anvil]

upvoted

[dusk anvil]

so basically what it does for me is it makes my arms feel less short, but it doesnt effect how tall i am and feel

(that's good! arms are supposed to feel good.)

[oak pendant]

Awesome! Hopefully if enough upvote, the devs will see it! (j/k upvoting actually helps to get more people to give feedback, thanks!)

[oak pendant]

In general it has more potential to make arms feel bad however. Because scaling isn't based on arms at all

But people seemed to have a stronger reaction to not being able to get floor height correct, but this may be more of a FBT thing.

[dusk anvil]

top: measure by arm
bottom: measure by height

hard to see but i feel like my reach is good and that my arms aren't short in measure by height

[oak pendant]

Yeah it totally depends on your avatar's height/arm-width ratio

[dusk anvil]

basically: my avatar doesn't reach as far as my actual arm while in measure by arm, while it does by measure by height.

probably due to some faulty height thing in either my avatar, or my settings, but nonetheless it is good that my arms can feel more natural while in my main avatar.

(and other avatars feel better too, i tested.)

[dusk anvil]

this setting is magic i want it default

[silk magnet]

My custom controller seems to be broken on ik beta where the head height isn't variable when doing the walking between standing and crouching animation in full body like it is on live. Currently using lock both

[clever thicket]

which one was the default before?

[oak pendant]

If you can make a canny post showing video of difference that would help understand the issue (also any issue reported only on discord won't be looked at when I go through development tasks as a list of things to do, if you want it on that list it's gotta be on canny)

[dusk anvil]

arm

[silk magnet]

Alright. Will do. Although I probably expect it to be something dumb on my end

[dusk anvil]

it doesnt change too much
my avatars reach is just like a couple centimeters or so more offset then my irl reach on arm span then height span, not worth making a big deal over

[oak pendant]

scale by height is a new thing, scale by arm is the old default on legacy, but new scale by arm uses a different scale factor targeting just straightening arms at t-pose, this new scale factor confused people in the previous patch of IK-Beta, and will probably confuse people on release too

[dusk anvil]

other users likely don't have this issue as my height setting is probably innacurate as i just fucked around with it until it looked and felt right

(i forgot my actual irl height)

[oak pendant]

scale by height seems more intuitive I think, and has also gotten good feedback so I'm considering it for the new default

[dusk anvil]

do that and i will send you an emoji of a cookie

[oak pendant]

🍪 I've got one right here actually, thanks tho

[dusk anvil]

but you will have two

[oak pendant]

(also by new default I don't mean removing the option, just what people have as a first setting when they start up at first)

[dusk anvil]

yes i know

[oak pendant]

(just in case someone else is reading through and gets worried)

[dusk anvil]

conspiracy time

vrchat is removing vr!111!!!! (joke)

[elfin sleet]

I think having it as the default option would be good

[silk magnet]

@oak pendant would it also be beneficial if I uploaded a unity package of my controller or would just screenshots suffice?

[final raven]

and will probably confuse people on release too

I assume there will be detailed docs or something of the like once this releases so even these who are not savvy to this, haven't tried the beta, etc will easily be able to get the most out of IK 2.0?

Because I'm definitely going off the assumption there are people most likely still unaware of this going on and once this drops, will probably be like "why does my avatar feel slightly off?" and "what do all these new options even mean?"

[strong sundial]

It may not be bad to also have a tutorial video that releases with the update and have a link to it in the quick menu banner

[coral cairn]

I actually think scale by height may not be the best default. Most people I talk to don't even notice that the floor doesn't line up, but people will notice if hands don't follow controllers. The balance shifts a bit when using 5+ point tracking though. Detailing in the canny.

[dusk anvil]

that's odd.
haven't noticed any floor offset in height scale

but maybe i'm the one with the odd situation if it lining up isn't normal 😅

[coral cairn]

on old ik

[dusk anvil]

O

yea i use new ik
thx for clarifying that

(old stinky)

[coral cairn]

I'd ask about "don't you want to fix the floor" and they'd look down and not actually be able to see anything was off.

[dusk anvil]

no more floors only floatign

[coral cairn]

idk maybe people won't be able to tell if their arm maxes out but personally I think that's more obvious, especially without full body.

[oak pendant]

sceenshots should be enough

[silk magnet]

okay 👍

[oak pendant]

Yeah great feedback, please leave in the canny too. And yeah that was my initial thought also and why arms is the default in the current build, but the reaction to height-scaling was more positive than expected too...

Also, I'm very aware that this channel and people who'll see the canny are a subset of FBT enthusiasts, and that 3pt users are the majority. I wouldn't base a decision just on number of votes or something like that. Just want to get people talking about pros and cons. Good feedback so far, thanks!

[dusk anvil]

i currently dont have full body but im considering it

[coral cairn]

crazy idea, what if instead of a button it was a slider

[dusk anvil]

how would that work if you dont mind me asking

[coral cairn]

calculate world scaling factor by arms, calculate the factor by height, and just do a linear interpolation between. Far left is the same as by height, far right is the same as by arms.
I don't know if you can scale unity scenes that fast, and you'd need to reset fbt calibration as soon as you touch it.

[dusk anvil]

thats a mouthful

[coral cairn]

tbh this is a bit redundant with user height. If you care about scaling that much you can probably just tweak that a bit and playspace

[dusk anvil]

i can see where youre getting at tho

[high nest]

I'll point out that re Kung's comment about getting good feedback over height calibration, I expect that folks who are happy with arm calibration just aren't commenting (you didn't break anything for them after all), so it's unclear what the proportion is here

[rancid glen]

I'm happy with having the height based scaling as an option, i much prefer it over wingspan (it makes everything too small)

[devout current]

Yeah idk with wingspan in IK 2.0 I always have the issue of my trackers not being postioned right

a bit in the floor

but it works perfect with hight

[minor rampart]

I still have issues with sitting cross legged.

Even with height.

It’s a lot better, but still not there.

Knee/leg movement is very poor though. It hugely exaggerates things.

If I sit on the edge of something and let my feet dangle, then move around my feet, with the old Ik?

Very accurate. Barely any knee movement.

With the new one, my sitting stance is overly wide and my knees move up/down/bow out erratically

Made a canny about it, but posting here too.

[harsh lagoon]

would be neat if there were a collission thing like how they implemented the upper arm to not clip through the chest, but with the legs not clipping through themselves?

[silk crow]

Will the scalling by hight work better if u have an avatar with longer arms and torso

I always had problems trying to fit into my avatar even when i scaled the arms and legs

[final raven]

Wonder if this change was included in the ik-beta stuff when that came out but just realized but looks like they adjusted the range your head can look up and down while in desktop so now your head will literally look all the way up or down whereas before it had a limit.

[empty solar]

imho, IK 2.0 feels like it's more meant for people who disable forced locomotion than those who have it enabled, and doesn't work well with some of the custom locomotion layers out there

[final raven]

Mmmmm, it seems to work well with Franada's gogo loco for me.

[tawdry glen]

That's hilarious lol.

Obviously broken, but still hilarious.

[devout current]

tbh I actually preferer it more over the locked movement we had before, people never knew that I was actually looking at their face while in desktop because of the old limetation

at least looking up looks okay

looking all the way down looks a bit meh

[final raven]

Looking all the way down looking decent will definitely be very avatar dependent I feel~

[mint abyss]

the looking up thing looks hilarious

[devout current]

true

[final raven]

gremlin mode activated~

[devout current]

I made a canny about a problem I noticed about eye movement in FBT while walking, I also included a video and made a comment that I feel like eye movement / "tracking" is a bit weird with the beta IK in generall.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/eyes-move-upwards-while-walking

[devout current]

yeahhh that looks weird xD

[digital grove]

what the fuck is this

[tawdry glen]

One of the best parts of VRChat is watching peoples avatars break down in hilarious ways when something go's wrong.

[zenith glacier]

be sure that most get fixed when the ik stuff is closed to finished. current "issues" with the fbt part with custom locos is currently, that once the hip is set to "animate", it locks the head into an animation as well for some reason

[empty solar]

yeah that's honestly annoying

[zenith glacier]

well, its called beta for a reason so

[final sphinx]

Yo what is this overlay

Is it udon or avatar

[final sphinx]

also wtf

[final raven]

It's an udon script, third person camera for desktop in the world.

[final sphinx]

i want those thingies as avatar overlay stuff qwq

osc/shaders would work but im no shader wizard

[zenith glacier]

i am thinking, would "flying" be considered IK as well? That is basically the only feature i am really missing for smaller avatars in half body and desktop

[final sphinx]

?

therws colliders and ovra

it would technically prob be a mix of avatar dynamics and osc (the input way = osc / the transform way = avd)

[mint abyss]

new ways to disturb vr users on pc

i cannot wait

[final raven]

Going by the definition. Not really.
Inverse kinematics is the use of kinematic equations to determine the motion of a robot to reach a desired position.
IK in this case just mainly refers to bone position, rotation etc.

[zenith glacier]

was just thinking about a pretty similar game to this which had the stuff for it in the locomotion layer as well, but if its not really IK related, then i guess i will have to look into the feedback site

[mint abyss]

I really do like it when my body does not clip through invisible colliders and freezes

[final raven]

Someone just brought this canny up, an option to measure by both height and arm length. Would such an option even be feasible? I feel like there would be a major compromise with this.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feature-request-add-option-to-measure-avatar-by-both-height-and-arm-length

[snow mirage]

Currently the scaling system scales you the player, to do this they would need to scale the avatars bones to match instead

[final raven]

Just realized the old method of loading into 3pt while in FBT (opening SteamVR while loading into an avatar) no longer exists. Makes sense honestly, now that there's a dedicated button for toggle on and off FBT.

[final sphinx]

It feels like this still exists tho

sometimes when i join worlds i loose the calibration and end up in 3pt

might just be an av3 thing tho

[final raven]

I've tested and it doesn't anymore.

[final sphinx]

hm i shall do more testing ig

[final raven]

Here, I'll do a quick recording.

[final sphinx]

Nah it sometimes works and sometimes doesnt when (re)joining a world / different instance of the same one

And i dont even switch to steamvr / unfocus the game

[mint abyss]

@final raven I want you to test lying on your side (e.g. on your side on a bed) and see if your spine bends horribly like in the old ik.

if you can

[zenith glacier]

it doesnt anymore with new ik

[mint abyss]

ayyy

people are going to love this update who can afford it

[final raven]

Update benefits even those solely in 3pt as well.

[mint abyss]

tracking loss detection would be amazing, since some trackers have patterns as to how they lose motion

e.g. moving at a perfectly constant rate

or for example your soul trying to escape from your body when your chest tracker drifts at 10 km/h

[final sphinx]

Interesting

[tawdry glen]

That's one way to describe it LOL.

[final sphinx]

drift/playspace desync (on quest) is horrible

"whats going on with your body dude"

[final raven]

I've noticed that due to the way the locking modes work, I haven't really noticed the infamous "avatar pulled by the hips" tracking loss anymore.

[mint abyss]

here, let me rest next to you in VR whole body thrusts itself into oblivion

[robust tangle]

There’s no real way to avoid hybrid drift. The two tracking universes are completely blind to each other with no common reference point

[marsh elm]

eh just do stage tracking

i callibrate once per session and thats it

lasts me however long i play for the day

even if i drop the headset to take a piss or something

[charred heath]

The near clip became too much in the last update it's noticible on quest

It used to do this before too but fixed after avatar switch now the bug stays and half the body is dissapearing and arms too

Basically the near clip being too big persists and won't go away anymore making it half gone

[robust tangle]

The vast majority of Avatars in VRChat are far taller than their wingspan. If scale by height is set as default on new accounts, all of these avatars will feel like they have comically short arms and I don’t think that will be a good impression. Floor height is not very important to upper body only users.

[devout valley]

not setting near clip to 0.001 in every world

oof

[robust tangle]

But muh Z-test precision

[devout valley]

They shall be accosted and shamed by an army of the smallest avatars possible!

[robust tangle]

Use a shader that ignores near clip :p

[devout valley]

That implies everyone has control over every avatar they use.

[robust tangle]

I know. Just saying, reducing near clip does have rendering side effects. It makes Z-fighting far more common unless you keep planes very far apart

[devout valley]

I think menu visually being cutoff is a bigger issue than zfighting tbh. But this is off channel topic so.... HOW BOUT DAT NEW IK DOH

[tender fractal]

I still haven't tested my avatars in the beta yet lol

I am desktop bound

[tiny token]

I’m getting much better results for head/both lock if I look down a bit (lowering the hmd) during fbt calibration. Anyone else?

[strong nova]

Haven't been able to test it, but are we able to "Naruto run" (arms backwards) with the new IK?

[tiny token]

Yes, one of the first things I tried lol

[strong nova]

Yessss! Was about to try it out tonight.

[tawny swan]

Hi guys~ does anybody knows what is lock hip and the other two means?

[silver geyser]

Lock to hip: you hip tracker is always accurate, but your viewpoint may drift a little
Lock to head: your viewpoint is always accurate, but your hip can drift (depending on position a lot)
Lock to both: both are accurate and your avatar will bend in any way necessary to keep it

[tawny swan]

Thankkksssss!!💗💗

[tawny swan]

I’m abit confused on what’s lock to both

*Bending avatar

[silver geyser]

head & hip both locking is Lock to both

[tawny swan]

What’s the meaning of bending avatar 🥲🥲

[silver geyser]

basically if it has to do weird things to the spine to keep both positions accurate

[tawny swan]

got it！thanks！

[clever thicket]

https://tenor.com/view/write-this-down-taking-notes-take-notes-gif-17975847

embed failure please dont laugh at me

[silver geyser]

yeah I've been noticing its misbehaving today embed

[robust tangle]

Lock both may look good to you but watch out it looks quite odd from the side most of time

After playing for a while lock head only is my favorite

[clever thicket]

lock head looked weird for me when sitting down before the patch, its kinda better now though

[tawny swan]

Do anybody know what’s avatar measurements?

https://tenor.com/view/anime-umaru-cry-crying-tears-gif-5184314

[clever thicket]

measures your avatar either by arm width or by height

[tawny swan]

What’s the difference

https://tenor.com/view/anime-tohru-honda-thanks-my-bad-blushing-shy-gif-15386618

[clever thicket]

Scale by width will make your arms match your real ones and you will just feel like you are on stilts, scale by height will make you feel as if you are your actual height but your real arms will over-reach your avatars arms

[tawny swan]

ooh～thanksssss！！

[strong nova]

🇮 🇰 2️⃣

[robust tangle]

Real hot take which one should be default on new accounts, knowing most users won't know an option exists

[clever thicket]

i'd say width

i think your arms not matching up is much more noticeable than legs in most cases

[gleaming imp]

I hope the arm scale setting stays in the live version
I find it works better with my avatars

[coral cairn]

Unless you have a mech suit then it's reverse ;)

Height scaling is way simpler to think about and see how it works but I'd argue you don't want that, you want people to not think about or feel the need to question scaling. However if you do start questioning its really easy to find out what's going on now.

[dusk anvil]

its good that we have these settings now :)

[steel ocean]

Is there a way to allow more shoulder pull with arm movement? The shoulders seem to lock to hip so moving arms farther in an inward direction results in more clipping since the body locks forward.

[devout current]

or under-reach, it all depends on how the Avatar is rigged

or it will fit perfect, that's also and option

[coral cairn]

currently if you want it to fit perfect you need scale by height, although scale by arms is pretty close.
idk if it's just me that has it too small or if it's just person to person variance

is this something I should add to immersive scaler with measurements?

if it's the same for everybody it wont be something commonly adjusted.

[devout current]

I have to say that one upside from scaling by height is that changing your height in the settings does exactly what it says to do, it changes your height. Arm-Span in comparison changes your arm-span which can be a bit confusing if the setting you are changing is for height. At lot of people (me included) changed their height with the old IK so that the length of their feet is fitting and not that the length of their arms are fitting.

[empty solar]

a question I have is does the new IK fix the bug when you disable locomotion that it randomly makes the avatar disappear in mirrors and cameras?

[wooden lion]

what does it mean when calculating by armspan and calculating by height are almost exactly the same?

[devout current]

That your avatar has a really good rig xD

[thick rose]

You achieved good proportions

[final raven]

#ik-2 message

[empty solar]

gonna test out my rig tweaks later to see if the way I have the armature set up now makes any lick of difference for proportionality

[empty solar]

thank you

[lean badger]

On the same topic of arms not reaching being more noticeable than e.g. feet height, I still find arms too short a lot of the time for a lot of avatars (unless I heavily modify user real height when in arm span mode and counter-adjust with play space mover, which is messy and has other downsides as well)

In the old IK - in 6 point - your upper body would be pulled a little to avoid having your IRL hands "disconnect" from your avatars hands. I find this was really effective at masking the mismatch in arm length, as even looking in a mirror you kind of just accept this movement. Would it be possible to have this as some sort of "Lock Hands" option in the new IK?

I have opened this canny post about it a while back, but I'm not sure if you saw it: https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/request-add-back-torso-leaning-as-an-option

[lean badger]

Would be potentially useful to be able to have torso leaning in 3/4-point as well. It used to be only applied in 6 point tracking for some reason

[robust tangle]

That particular Avatar’s wingspan to height ratio is very similar to that of a real human

Where an avatar that’s extremely tall with t-rex arms and you’ll see a big difference

Or a short avatar with gorilla arms

Most anime characters are much too tall for their wingspan so you will see a difference between the two options - historically the game made wingspan match and just let the floor height be wrong since few notice

Most don’t have fullbody and so don’t care about the floor, But arms being short would be very bothersome to pretty much everyone

[solar cloud]

For 3pt width might be better I think

Since legs don't really matter there

[robust tangle]

Scale by height fixes The floor height on many avatars in full body at the cost of feeling like the head is ridiculously tiny

[lean badger]

I think I prefer by armspan even in FBT. But I also find arms being too short more annoying than having stilts or so. Although I guess with a "lock hands" option by height might be preferable? Or maybe just not that different.

[robust tangle]

The hands are always locked

[coral cairn]

Do you think current scale by arms is a good scale?

[robust tangle]

Unless you mean you want the hands to tug on the head again, Personally I hated that

[coral cairn]

Hands detach, so while they're locked its lower priority than hips and head. The logic here is mostly that you don't see the head.

[robust tangle]

To me personally headlock and never drifting no matter what is vital to me that’s why I’m very happy we got headlock

I use head bound huds and stuff so having them drift is annoying

[coral cairn]

Mhm. I'm appreciating dual lock for that reason.

I can get behind 'hand lock' for small movements but it's gotta be really hard to draw that line.

I think the scaling ratio should be such that it's really not needed. Maybe let the shoulders give more.

[robust tangle]

I don’t know, personally hands tugging on your body doesn’t look that good in first person, and it definitely doesn’t look good for other people

And there is a danger of toggle Bloat

[coral cairn]

Do you think it's an issue at all for 3 point?

[robust tangle]

I’ve been playing 3 point for four years and I would say as long as you have scale by width, hand lock is a not a necessity

If scale by height were the default I would consider the best move to change it back to scale by with by default XD

That’s just my opinion

[coral cairn]

I think so long as scale by width actually covers stuff. Going to reach for something in range and your hand just not reaching is pretty bad.

[solar cloud]

ooo what you have for huds?

[lean badger]

I find it at least neccessary for 6-point, and I would prefer to have it in 3-point too

[lean badger]

I think I prefer scale by arms, but ffor a lot of avatars (most) I have to set "User real height" to a lie (not my actual armspan or height) and then fiddle with space mover to not get the viewppint too far down. Even with scale by arms, It's not a good experience without hand lock IMO

[coral cairn]

You raise your real height?

[lean badger]

yeah. for short-armed avatars it helps a little

[robust tangle]

That just means scale by width isn’t working correctly

Or their view position is wrong which shouldn’t be addressed with this

Make sure the shoulders are lined up with your real shoulders if they aren’t it shouldn’t be fixed by IK changes

[coral cairn]

Scaling is done neck to hand now, it used to be head to hand. Actual arm length shouldn't matter

[fiery herald]

if i get the beta, can i play with people who dont have it?

[ionic heron]

yup! this beta is network-compatible

[lean badger]

Maybe it’s a case of shoulders being too short, but I can't claim to be an IK expert. All I know is that some avatars where before the arms felt long enough with no faffing about with "user real height" now require significant messing around with user real height (different per avatar) to get the arms to feel even remotely good. and even despite that it feels worse (arms "disconnecting"). btw this new behavior is more or less consistent with what I've seen on one or two other social vr platforms when I've uploaded the same avatar there. Only evere VRC was able to work around the problem with how the torso is pulled by your arms whenever the hands would've otherwise not reached.

So for all its faults, the Legacy IK, it was fairly good at "one size fits all". (And let it be said that the new IK is amazing on the avatars where I don't have as bad short-arm syndrome/that more closely fit my proportions. I'm just trying to add constructive critique.)

Maybe a bit of a case of avatars being made to work with the legacy IK as well, of course

[ionic heron]

note that issues/feedback reported in this channel are not reported properly, see https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20 o:

[lean badger]

I have made a canny asking for adding back torso leaning as an option, because even I might want to turn it off for an avatar not exhibiting this problem

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/request-add-back-torso-leaning-as-an-option

Maybe I should've called it "hand lock" though

Should I try and take video to illustrate the problem and post it as well?

[devout current]

Sure, why not

[mint abyss]

could someone make an issue in the canny to have it to where you don't freeze when you clip two inches into an invisible wall, or have they already addressed that?

or just having FBT freeze when clipping through walls in general

[coral cairn]

Hmm I'll need to play with it a bit more tonight on arm scaling. It's interesting how some have long enough arms and others don't

Could be a shoulder thing.

I can feel that something is only slightly off with arm length in arm scaling mode but it's hard to put my finger on it.

[pure basalt]

What does ik stand for

Not like the “I know” but in the beta name

[gleaming igloo]

inverse kinematics

basically, calculating the position of joints/bones when only some parts are being tracked (e.g. just head, hands, and feet)

[ionic heron]

mathematical process of calculating ways to place the end of a kinematic chain (i.e a hand, foot, etc) in a given position relative to the start of the chain

in animation for example, it's a lot easier to use inverse kinematics to just move a hand where you want it, versus setting the angle of the shoulder, and then setting the angle of the upper arm, and then setting the angle of the forearm, etc

[zenith glacier]

why dont make it yourself? besides, almost sure they do it with half body as well anyway

[mint abyss]

You're assuming I have access to VRChat this week, I don't, I'm just asking for a helping hand since I don't have the tools to see how the Beta is.

[devout current]

but what do you need VRChat for to make a canny?

[mint abyss]

Canny requires a VRC account, I literally am not on my native computers and use Authy (which I happen to have linked to THAT computer), can't log in if you can't verify yourself -w-

[devout current]

well that actually makes sense now

[mint abyss]

if you can, see if you freeze when you clip into walls in FBT

[devout current]

I mean yeah I still do

at least yesterday and all the days before that I still did in beta

[coral cairn]

Sounds more like a general gameplay thing than an ik thing?

[devout current]

Yeah

[final raven]

A reminder that now that we have access to VRChat's IK 2.0 that this world exists and should go a long way for model makers looking to make their avatars as proportional as possible. Very good proportions with both arms & legs are 👌
https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_fc86fd1c-ec01-405a-ace1-4a2c5930a256

[zenith glacier]

check the wold in pins as well

[final raven]

Mhm, I'm aware of that one as well.

[coral cairn]

Or just throw it through immersive scaler the lazy way if you have it in blender ;)

Gotta get some slight elbow enforcement in there soon. Having height scaling changes a couple things.

[robust tangle]

I use authy and can log in to canny via iPhone btw

[solar cloud]

I use Aegis or Bitwarden 2FA

[tiny token]

What do y'all feel about FBT calibration moving you to a "room" where

• you can't see other players
• other players can't see you
• there is a mirror
• IK options UI in the room

[robust tangle]

the "new" calibration method (actually it's like over a year old now) doesn't need a mirror. Just put feet together, look forward, calibrate.

[tiny token]

I've noticed that I don't stand as straight up or face forward as accurately as I feel. The mirror is useful.

[robust tangle]

You might be on the old calibration then? The old one needed you to face a specific direction

and stand in an exact spot

[tiny token]

I've never used the old calibration that needs to be enabled with a flag

[lean badger]

Personally I feel it's the new one that requires a mirror, since I can't look down at my feet...

[lethal light]

has anyone noticed that the spine on IK-2 does not "point" forward, even if leaning back, leading to a very awfully-looking position. I checked the canny but couldn't see anyone mention this specific issue, and wanted to check here before opening an issue/bug. Here is what it looks like (on my avatar which has quite good proportions [and yes, I did test some others and they seemed to have issues as well, at least the few I looked at]):

[lean badger]

I don't want to have to end conversation with people just to calibrate

[lethal light]

And this would be a more proper-looking leaning back

[robust tangle]

You don't need to, though, they'll always be right below you

That said, the slow dampening is annoying. Why is that there?

Remove the dampening.

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/remove-motion-dampening-during-calibration

[tiny token]

it would be an option. atm im running to a mirror to calibrate anyways, but if you're very familiar with your avatar and don't need to use tricks to calibrate, calibrate in place should still be a thing.

[tiny token]

which locking mode are you using

[lethal light]

head + hips

[tiny token]

does it happen with the other modes?

[lethal light]

haven't checked, I can real quick, but still, unless something is wrong on my end, the spine should be able to point forward in that mode for more accurate-looking arching

[tiny token]

Try the trick where you look down 20-30 deg when calibrating for head+hip lock. It's still seems to be an issue because I don't think the hip-spine joint should be able to bend like that lol

[robust tangle]

That is the side effect of using "Lock Both" - it's in the tooltips that the other two modes avoid this issue. If your head and hip get closer than they were during calibration, they will form a \_/ angle on your spine. There is no way to avoid this, if the two end points are locked, and move closer, the bones connecting them must buckle; they have no where else to go.

[tiny token]

you can avoid it by looking down a bit when calibration, lowering your hmd

[robust tangle]

theoretically having an upper chest bone should give one extra angle to soften the buckle

[lethal light]

Yes, I understand that they need to buckle, which is what I want, I am just saying that there are cases the spine/chest should buckle forward instead of backward

[tiny token]

its not final and has to be tuned. we can't re-rig and re-paint every avatar

[lethal light]

Yep, I will add this when I get around to it

[lethal light]

no, it does not happen in other modes, but the angle is not very extreme compared to what it should be

(because they are not absolute positions like Adeon was saying with the buckling)

[tiny token]

i think the head+hip calibration needs to be tuned because as soon as I click my triggers, my avatar hunches over, without me moving irl

[lethal light]

hmm.... I don't have the hunched over issue on my avatar, although now that I do look, it seems the spine also does not gracefully buckle left or right when leaning either....

I might try to rig and paint an upper chest and then if it still doesn't fix, make an issue on the canny

[raw wadi]

That my home for idk as long as I remember

[tiny token]

Ik2 should be fixed or tuned as much as possible in VRC to work with avatars without the upper chest bone. Do try the looking down slightly trick

[lethal light]

ohh I completely agree, as most avatars won't have the extra effort put in. I did try the slightly look down trick, and it did not fix it. Instead, it caused the hips to raise slightly and I had to hunch down further to get the spine to start bending

But I might as well right the bone if it makes avatars look more natural, and then there is also more data/situations I can provide in the canny.

[tiny token]

This is also a reason to support chest tracking :p

[lethal light]

xD for sure, I hope they do that as well. I might need to get 10 point tracking first though

[tiny token]

at this rate every spare outlet in my place will be used for charging a vr tracker

[lethal light]

I just plug everything into my usb ports.... Oh.... I will need a expansion card

[tiny token]

i acutally have a 6 port usb charging hub that i thought would be enough....

[lethal light]

I mean, dongles are a thing.....

[robust tangle]

I just plug the trackers into the same USB ports that the dongles were using to charge them

[tiny token]

ik2

[final sphinx]

just get a 8 port one

this one was like 20 bucks

[spark junco]

Damn, that's a lot of USBs.

[robust tangle]

That’s a lot of Universal Serial Buses

[lethal light]

with head + hips locked?, could you send me a pic of the armature if that is your model?

[whole glacier]

I got a 10 port charger. 🙂

[final sphinx]

I wouldnt be surprised if a 20 port one existed

I bought this one specifically for the 8 (7) tundras tho

[whole glacier]

I bought mine for 8 Tundras.

Plus controllers.

[final sphinx]

i just got a dock for my knuckles

[whole glacier]

I have hooks for everything. 🙂

[silk crow]

Should i make my shoulder bones longer if my arms are quite long compared to my body?

I have some issues with my arms not lining up with the beta

[silk crow]

I have had this issue for a very long time because my irl arms are very long compared to my body and even when i tried to scale them to be longer i always had issues with reaching to the sides as they would not go as far as my really hands

[kind tartan]

dude I think that would be really cool, but with a slight variation:

it wouldn't have to literally be a separate room, just kind of a semitransparent instance of a mirror room that you can only see in front of you (kind of like how the walking vignette system works), while your friends and the real world you're in are still visible behind or off to the side... and the calibrate mirror can just fade out when you're done calibrating.

And as for players can't see you while calibrating, that's already the case: you just stand in place with slightly stomping feet during calibration.

actually being able to spawn a mirror of yourself at any time (without a bunch of custom camera tricks on your avatar ) would be genuinely useful anyway

[tiny token]

That's good too. I thought maybe a separate room would let me get full FPS while calibrating at an event where I'm getting 20 FPS

[marsh elm]

Oh no, the mirror dwellers are mobile now

😂

[clever roost]

Do you need trackers for the beta?

Jw

Cause if not cool

[lethal light]

you don't

[clever roost]

Good good

Yay

[keen yarrow]

Is there a reason we aren't getting 11 point tracking? Where's our chest tracker?

[still badge]

Extra development for a niche of a niche of a niche ,

[stone harbor]

wait why Is this it's own Build? opposed to the Open Beta? is "something" else happening at the same time sooooooon?

[devout current]

Yes, the IK beta has it's own channel and also canny site. This is because it will be longer then other betas, it will also always be network compatible with live and they could (if they want to) still use the normal open beta for other stuff.

[marsh elm]

I will not rest untill we achieve complete 12 point with chest and dangle&berries trackers for maximum immersion

[whole glacier]

It is the most poplar suggestion on the feedback forum. :)

[prisma meadow]

does the knee tracker only really track left-right rotations?

[robust tangle]

They are actually upper leg trackers

[prisma meadow]

tomato tomato

[rustic berry]

there's a canny post about it

they're looking into it

there's different ways to implement it, and UI is another consideration

[final raven]

Voice your feedback here if you wish to see it implemented.
https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-trackers

[lyric heath]

no chest tracking Oo

[keen yarrow]

The reason I bring it up is because NeosVR already supports 11 point tracking, and I've seen people in-game doing 11 point with a chest tracker, via some funny third party stuff. They demonstrated it in front of me. So I know its at least possible, and does make a difference for specific body movements.

[keen yarrow]

Thank you

[robust tangle]

I believe the current choice was made because because trackers with only one bone between (chest-neck-head only has neck) can’t be tracked perfectly without causing huge deforming of the neck. So instead it would only be used for rotation hinting. Which is not as much value for your $100+ purchase

[vagrant vector]

You get diminishing returns for the same price, for a lot of people its just not worth it

[robust tangle]

As you add more tractors you need to discard more of the data from them, even the elbows and knees are not purely tracked points, chest would be even less

[prisma meadow]

chest trackers are why i added an upperchest bone to my avi

[keen yarrow]

It just seems like an oversight not including it, even if it is diminishing returns. There are people who want it and those who are already using it.

[robust tangle]

Feet, hands, and then either head, hips, or both, are fully tracked

[prisma meadow]

fbt above 6 pts is diminishing returns

worth just depends on the person

[robust tangle]

Even six point with lock all has issues

You have to drop either the head or hip as perfectly tracked to avoid shoes

[vagrant vector]

I wouldn't really call it an oversight, Kung is actively asking for why they should add it so they still might 🤷‍♂️ its a beta for a reason

[robust tangle]

People will blame the substandard chest tracker on VR chat though is the issue. People tend to have very wild expectations

And I think they also want to avoid making menus with 1 million little options

[keen yarrow]

I know a few people in Neos who do 4 trackers, feet, hips, and chest, no elbows or knees.

Though that's specifically because of Neos's full body jank.

[silk magnet]

People's avatar rigs are usually the issues, but that's because anime stylization doesn't always equate to proportionally accurate.
Mine is accurate to me and I have a need for at least elbow trackers.
knee trackers would be nice

[vagrant vector]

I was just going to convert my old vive wands in knee/elbow trackers and then probably do knees since I sit down in VR all the time

[silk magnet]

Isnt that process irreversible?

I use my old wands as backup controllers, so flashing with tracker firmware would be inconvenient if I couldn't use them anymore

[vagrant vector]

Not from what I read, you open some file, tell the controller that its a tracker instead, can always go back and flip it to a controller again.

[silk magnet]

Oh okay

[vagrant vector]

I havent done it yet, but you should look into it at least if they are just sitting around

[silk magnet]

For sure. Not looking to spend a fortune on more trackers. Ultimately might just wait for SlimeVR to start shipping since they have cheap bundles

[vagrant vector]

Yeah I saw tundra trackers is doing sales again but its 360 for 3 when I only need two so fuck that lmao

[ionic heron]

ye, people might be expecting too much out of their avatars with gorilla arms and chihuahua legs lmao

[silk magnet]

Most mmd models are long legs though. Nothing wrong with that, but not the most intuitive when trying to force to match real proportions

[strong nova]

Moderation prompts aren't appearing for votekicks. Affecting live, and beta.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/bug-reports/p/live11702-votekick-prompts-do-not-appear

[harsh lagoon]

interesting thats annoying

[final raven]

Noticed that as well the other day, upvoted.

[prisma meadow]

just need to have correct proportions

[strong nova]

Ah, it was merged. Thanks, 1.

[prisma meadow]

or even just putting it through immersive scaler makes it look good enough

[spare path]

can i use the ik 2 beta on live servers

with people not running the beta

[runic rover]

Yes

[devout current]

I dare you guys to make us decide between the IK beta and the Avatar Dynamics beta....

[stone harbor]

seeing as avatar dynamics will likley not be Network compatible

ik beta is fine for full time useage if they also fix the Votekick bug in that build too

[clever thicket]

ik beta will get that patch too

[robust tangle]

https://i.imgur.com/Xwr4BXe.jpeg

[devout current]

lmao

[hot fulcrum]

move on time...
has been cancelled....

[solar prism]

IS there a Avatar world for the new IK beta

with some avatars to try the new features?

[vital warren]

what is ik 2 beta?

[oak pendant]

You might be thinking of Avatar Dynamics. IK Beta's new features work on all avatars.

[vital warren]

nice

[oak pendant]

IK2.0 is separate from Avatar Dynamics and is an update to our IK system. Right now IK-Beta is compatible with the normal release build (you can play on IK-Beta and see your friends who aren't using any beta)

This means IK-Beta isn't merged in with Avatar Dynamics at this time though

[solar prism]

I was mostly thinking if there was a Avatar world like when Avatar 3.0 was released

But thanks!

[oak pendant]

I'd suggest people who want to beta-test get on the Avatar Dynamics build, and then if you're still interested in the new IK2.0 stuff, use it when you want to see your friends in the release build.

[vital inlet]

How important would a chest tracker be anyway, would it even make a difference?

Hey what the code for ik-beta for pc

[oak pendant]

It would make a difference, but it may or may not do what people expect. There's discussion about it in the Canny. I'll definitely be doing some explorations there because the number of Canny votes express that it's a wanted feature, but this still isn't at the stage to call it a planned feature just yet. Right now I'm working through a bunch of the various little issues people are having before jumping on another large change.

[oak pendant]

ik-beta doesn't require a code. It should just be listed there in the dropdown. If you're not seeing correct beta stuff listed, restarting steam can help

[vital inlet]

I only mentioned because some people using the other solution seem to think the updates not as good because of a lack of a chest tracker option

But I thought about it and chest IK with all the other points known has to be pretty accurate, still though hard to get over peoples assumptions

[oak pendant]

Yeah the feedback in the canny has been useful, and I've received the communication that it's very much a wanted feature.

[calm torrent]

Oh, hi Kung, while you're here, can I try convincing you that the feature to ignore all animations is IK-related and belongs in the beta/update/IK 2.0?

[zenith glacier]

i was testing some stuff out with panda yesterday. seems like i got sort of the best results with hip&head lock when i had the back slightly bent backward from spine onwards, like this:

neck however still a bit buggy, but when i was calibrating looking down like 10 degrees fixed worked around that

[calm torrent]

There's a bunch of arguments in support of it:

• It directly relates to how IK handles weights for limbs/tracking points and/or animations
• It applies to both AV2 and AV3, so it's not purely an AV3 thing
• It's about personal preference of avatar user, not avatar maker. It shouldn't have been in avatar descriptor in the first place precisely for this reason
• Something something chairs (idk, I also don't want chairs to mess with my FBT pose either)
• With 50 upvotes, if it were in IK 2.0 canny board, it would have been fourth most-upvoted post - and that's even without direct exposure from people scrolling that board
• It's one of the more-known/used features in [redacted]

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I've been suggesting* to people to look down a bit if they want to tighten the spine, but this introduces a bit of drift in both the hip and feet trackers. Seems people prefer it. Lock all must have a breaking point somewhere but looking down allows you to bake in an offset in the rest of the lower body to unload some of the strain

[zenith glacier]

looks like this

god finally, i had to turn her black cause the bot was like "nah its grey and nsfw" lol

i actually encounter pretty much the issue, that i have to increase my real height by like 14cm to match her armature better (calibrates to red then). real height calibrates to yellow. I am wearing my trackers on my feet/shoes. (i think it already got reported in the canny, but i thought i can show it more easily here)

i expect pretty much most of the "heeled" avatars to have that^^

[oak pendant]

Even though the canny is moved out because it's more of an animator customization thing, I'm still aware of it. The biggest problem is that it would require more UI options. That's a valuable and limited resource, I know your personal opinion differs there (actually my own personal opinion is probably the same as yours, but I'm not working on IK2.0 as a personal project just for me, it's an update to VRChat for all users.) I'm pretty sure that discussion in discord about having more UI options or not would derail pretty quickly because any human asked incrementally, "do you want the option to X, or would you rather not have the option? will say they want it. But some of the same people would be turned away if the UI looked like an airliner cockpit.

So before discussion derails there, I think it's best to keep the "more UI options or not" stuff contained to that relevant canny.

[calm torrent]

Well, there's also a canny post for "give more options", which is third most-upvoted, and doesn't seem to have anyone strongly opposed to it for the time being.
Also, people keep reposting it, in part because canny search is just bad, but also because no such post can be found in IK 2.0 board anyway (see https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/toggle-for-locomotion-in-game for the latest one) - would this warrant at least moving the post back so it's discoverable?
But thanks for clarifying it anyway.

[oak pendant]

That makes sense because at the red X the rotation from your real foot would more closely align with the bone pivot. That will likely continue to be the case for high-heeled avatars, unless people wear heels IRL, but I feel like that could get dangerous in vr.

[zenith glacier]

yeah xD i dont know however if its possible to sort of get an "y" offset for the foot trackers in these cases?

i mean, i personally dont have any issues running around with a 1,93m setting despite being 1,78 in RL, then i can finally feel taller 😄

[oak pendant]

I'm not so opposed to moving it back, but if someone else on the team is going to be working on animator related options or something like that, they'd be less likely to see it. You're the one that posted it right? I'm alright with moving it back if you'd prefer it. If* you'd like me to, can you link it again?

[spiral mesa]

so ik don't work with live now?

we have to switch back?

[zenith glacier]

ik beta works with live

the other one doesnt

[spiral mesa]

oh i see theres 2 now

[oak pendant]

It's not technically impossible, but you'd be able to functionally get the same behavior by messing with user real height and offsetting playspace height with other tools, so I expect enthusiast users will already just do that

[zenith glacier]

that would be with legacy calibration no? if I would playspace with normal calibration, the avatar should follow me

and yeah, enthausiast just do mess with playerheight anyway like they always did.

anyway, i gotta go dancing in vr now, so ik beta, avatar with shown spine - lets hope it will look good for the people xD

[calm torrent]

You probably have more knowledge of what's going on inside the team to know if it's likely that anyone else would work on something like that anytime soon. To me personally it doesn't sound like something that directly relates to the Dynamics beta, but I have zero inside info.
So I'd suggest having it in the IK 2.0 board for the time being, given the amount of reposts, people's expectations, and slightly-less-cluttered state of the board. It can always be moved back out if it's firmly decided that it won't make the cut as a part of IK 2.0 update (i.e. beta ends, or a decision is made to not add more options, or it isn't added as an option in favor of other options).
The post itself is here: https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/add-an-option-to-disable-locomotion-animations-on-all-avatars

Thanks!

[alpine lantern]

I tried to download it but it keeps saying I'm missing file privileges'.

[oak pendant]

Looks like a general steam issue. I can't verify the effectiveness or safety of doing these things myself, so use at your own risk, but here's a list of possible fixes: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/1458455461474727488/

[alpine lantern]

Thanks. Also damn, that's a pain, I was hoping I was just missing a code for the beta. =_=

[fervent aspen]

so I noticed with IK 2.0 that the shoulder bone appears to be locked in place, so when you do something like stick your arms up, it ends up looking really weird in the gap between the shoulder and upper arm bone. is there something I can do to improve this?

[round vale]

how do i join both of these betas?

[devout valley]

You can only join one at a time, so you have to choose.
Also #open-beta-info

[last rain]

Erabe

[harsh lagoon]

weird, i've noticed the exact opposite, for my avatar, the shoulders are far better than ever and look fantastic when stretching and reaching

yours appears to not be using the shoulder at all which is odd, i'm guessing it has something to do with the armature of that avatar, i know the shape of that avatar isnt ideal for the perfect humanoid

[zenith glacier]

guess its a weightpaint thing as well. But here i notice too (head+hip lock) that the shoulders dont move up unless the arm drags it up

oh btw, it did work well and it seems that ik with that avatar responded like i wished to, so good job @oak pendant

[fervent aspen]

shoulder -> arm -> elbow -> wrist, pretty standard armature

[harsh lagoon]

yeee i know but i meant more like the possible size and position of said shoulder

[spare mist]

🤔 I wonder if the shoulder and upper arm bones have to be connected for shoulder bone to move in the IK chain (though I assume not since Unity probably treats bone chains differently to Blender)

[fervent aspen]

according to unity it's definitely connected

[spare mist]

yeah, I figure Unity just connects bones together in its rigging solution

[oak pendant]

What you're noticing is an actual issue, I'll be doing a further cleanup pass on shoulders related to some other updates later on. The shoulders are allowed to be pulling up by the arm stretching up overall (which is why others are saying it's working for them), but in your situation the arm isn't over-reaching upward, because the hands are relaxed. Basically straightening the arm upward can pull the shoulder a lot, but the upper-arm alone (with the forearm relaxed) doesn't have as big an effect. This still needs improvement, so thanks for mentioning it. You could post it on canny if you feel inclined, but I'm already aware of this one.

[vital inlet]

Votekicks dont work on ik-beta branch
its on the last patch i think

[oak pendant]

Ah you mean 2022.1.1p2 in the live release right? Yeah this needs to be merged in, I was hoping to get some more updates together before the weekend, though not sure I'll get that in. In any case, whenever the next patch to IK-Beta comes through, it'll have this too

[wanton inlet]

just wanna say the community appreciates the recent updates!

its cool to see VRChat get these new features

[brazen condor]

Dumb question, is there any comparison of 6 point vs 10 point tracking in terms of accuracy and fidelity

Was curious if I wanted to get the extra 4 trackers >.>'

[fervent aspen]

ah! good to know 🙂 I can post a canny if you'd like anyway for external tracking purposes

[oak pendant]

Sure, that would help others know it's not just them

[oak pendant]

You'll see the biggest difference in elbow positioning accuracy. The knee prediction in 6-point tends to be much more accurate than the elbow prediction in 6-point so the change there would be more subtle.

[brazen condor]

I already went for feet tracking and waist to sit the entire time so I feel I can't go worse >.>'

[wooden lion]

i straightened out my spine bones and the new ik still crunches my chest and mangles my spine

[vital inlet]

neat good to know

[oak pendant]

If you wanted to get some more trackers, maybe start out getting 2 and then bind to your elbows, then swap to your knees, you can use them in either mode. That way you can try it out

If you think you need the knees all the time them buy 2 more

[brazen condor]

I was debating about grabbing 4 as at worst a full body set for a second person

Since I have 4 base stations, can stick someone in another room with 3 trackers and bam

Double fullbody

[oak pendant]

Though there will be further improvements to 10pt tracking during this beta period too

In any case, IMO elbows make a larger difference than knees

[brazen condor]

Not sure if I'll have it by the time the beta ends

Knees do seem relatively accurate for the most part

Feet are much more restrictive than hands (And one less joint)

So getting the knees right seems easier

[devout valley]

is it possible to have elbows instead of feet?

[oak pendant]

Not at the moment, but that request is in the canny and something I'm considering

[devout valley]

i only have 3 trackers currently and would like more expressive upper body

oh nice

[oak pendant]

I'll be making some improvements to how the body parts pick up trackers, because right now you can have the knee trackers close to the feet and they can get bound reversed. When I'm doing that I may work in other tracking combos too

[devout valley]

based. Do you have the link on hand?

I wanna follow that canny

[brazen condor]

Oh, dumb question, are you aware of the issue of controllers getting bound as feet trackers?

[oak pendant]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/feature-request-hip-tracking-elbow-tracking

[brazen condor]

I've noted sometimes if a tracker or controller drops they all get re-assigned at random

(Favorites included my left hand becoming my hip so I could do some funny pevic thrusts)

[oak pendant]

hand controllers bound as feet? I hadn't heard of that happening

[brazen condor]

I could try to reproduce it to get you a video, it happened around 2-3 times during my testing. Clearing Steam VR and VRC fixed it

[oak pendant]

I've heard of feet trackers getting set to hand if steam tracker config role has them set as "held in hand"

[brazen condor]

Couldn't really determine it it was a VRC issue or Steam

I will note that the "Controller" looked like a Tracking puck oddly

The little white orb

And I could no longer use the controller to opperate the menu

[oak pendant]

Yeah, if you can get some clear steps to reproduce the issue that'd be great, and setting up a canny too

[brazen condor]

I'll give it a shot

It might honestly be a steam issue given the odd interaction with the controller tho

[mild nimbus]

all of my Tundra Trackers were assigned that before I changed it

[oak pendant]

leave info on what controllers you use and if you've done anything like flashing custom json config on them or something

Yeah, that held-in-hand is default is a bit of an issue

[brazen condor]

Will do, (Just plain Index controllers)

[wooden lion]

this spine is straight enough right?

it's significantly straighter than it was before and has not improved IK at all

[oak pendant]

Depends on what issue you're trying to address. But the way unity will see it, it's actually not very straight

Just a sec and I'll illustrate why, (bone root to bone root)

[wooden lion]

unity does this

[wooden lion]

in the armature configuration

which is essentially undoing what i changed

is that what matters to IK?

i would have to move the neck bone forward or chest bone back significantly which is not desirable

[oak pendant]

the chest bone will end up pointing to the neck root, so it's not as straight as is looks there in blender

This might be something I can address later in the beta, but for now it expects a mostly straight spine. Thinking of where the vertebrae are in the body, I think there's room to move the chest back some, and also the hip forward some

if you want to move the chest as little as possible, something like this would probably work

[wooden lion]

hm, i think i'll wait

this is a model i'm planning to release and i don't know what changes i need to make yet

i don't want to have to undo any changes later on

[oak pendant]

Yeah, best to wait until much later in the beta then. The IK-Beta is planned to last for a long time to get feedback on all the incremental changes that affect people in so many different ways

[fervent aspen]

yeah, my avatar has a non-straight spine and has a slightly off behavior with the new IK. but it's not outright broken

[oak pendant]

(For example, people are re-scaling to the new arm scale factor but there's a 50/50 chance that's gonna change in the next or a soon update)

[fervent aspen]

saw there was already a canny about the rexouium and the non-straight spine and the new IK behavior

[oak pendant]

Yeah, currently it'll use a bent spine as slack in the spine and the rest pose bend will be largely ignored

[wooden lion]

ik 1.0 handled curved spines fine but obviously handled foot placement worse

i would like to see a balance

[oak pendant]

people having trouble with spine tightness will have more trouble with a built in corner in the spine, and also the normal state after they bind will look different compared to what they set up in blender

[robust cove]

Does the avatar have to be compatible with the new update to work?

If so how do u make it compatible im a avatar creator

[oak pendant]

Legacy IK doesn't do much bending in the spine-chest joint at all, it's basically frozen to the rest pose state, so people's built-in bends stay there, but that means they don't get as much nice curving over the whole spine (and the hip-spine joint over absorbs stuff) anyway, it's a known issue, but unsure if it'll be solved or not before end of beta, there are other things with a bit more priority

[oak pendant]

It should just work in most cases (if you're talking about IK2.0 just making sure you aren't thinking of the Avatar Dynamics open beta)

[robust cove]

Its not working for me, the avatars in the world are but other normal avatars are not

Is there something I need to do

[oak pendant]

Are you talking about Avatar Dynamics?

[robust cove]

Yes

[oak pendant]

Ah, ok. This is the channel for the IK-Beta. It's a separate beta running to test the new IK2.0 system (how vr controllers and trackers move the body) The Avatar Dynamics is general open beta and you'll need to ask about it in #open-beta-discussion

[robust cove]

I've tried but no ones getting to me TvT but sorry for talking in the wrong chat

[oak pendant]

Ah, it could be your permissions maybe. In the quick menu settings make sure you set the avatar interactions to be allowed for everyone (and of course make sure you've loaded the Open Beta build on steam)

I want to be careful about troubleshooting Avatar Dynamics in this channel though, because as the flood gates opened over there, a few people spilled in here, and having that discussion in here will just confuse them more

There's a bunch of info with the release, make sure you go through the announcements and read the docs. That should answer most questions you may have

[coral cairn]

So will the avatar dynamics branch get merged into the IK 2 branch or vice versa? They both have aspects that are 'feel' based but I'd argue the consequences of getting ik wrong are worse long term.

[oak pendant]

Things could change, but currently it looks likely that IK-Beta will be around even after AD gets to full release, reason being IK-Beta is live compatible, so not a huge rush to get it to live release because people can use it as that right now if they wish

So when AD gets released, the live compatible IK-Beta would then be compatible with AD too at that point

So we'd AD + IK2.0 testing there before IK2.0 goes to full release

Again, not a concrete announced plan or anything, but looks like it'll end up going that way I think

[coral cairn]

Gotcha. Yeah it being network compatible is a huge help and it's better to take the time to get it right.

[mild nimbus]

I assume IK 2.0 is operating under the assumption it won’t be pushed to live till everything is fixed/addressed or at least there’s no clear cut off point where you’d say good enough

[frosty loom]

everything

[mild nimbus]

everything

(Yes I know this stuff is way more complicated under the surface)

[oak pendant]

It'll never get to the state that everything is fixed, because good for some people is broken for others. But the idea is to give it a decent amount of time to bake because changes need reaction from the community because it affects people in so many different ways

There would still be updates to it after it releases, so basically once it's time to move on and get it out, it'll come to release. The legacy toggle will still be in for release, so arguably even if it isn't perfect, as long as it's an improvement over legacy it would be fine to come out at that point

But yes, it'll stay in beta state for longer than the usual open betas to get some good feedback and polish on it

[mild nimbus]

I appreciate the detailed explanation 😄

[icy ferry]

honestly i'm vibing with the update pretty hard. most of the issues i have are already posted in feedback too which is nice. i think for a start though it's really, really well done and i can tell you listened carefully to feedback in the past.

i honestly think it's one of the most thoughtfully done updates i've seen. i'm excited for it to get to a releasable state.

[oak pendant]

A lot of stuff currently sitting as feedback is in the works, not all of it is marked as planned because things need a bit of internal testing before committed to. But more improvements are on the way

Just FYI I've gotta go afk for a bit so I'm not gonna be in this channel for awhile

[icy ferry]

i'm really glad to hear that even unmarked stuff is being considered. i know this will all take time but i'm probably not gonna switch back to live for as long as this beta runs cause i just enjoy it that much as is, even with the stuff that still needs fine tuning.

[south mica]

How do you leave the beta on quest

[carmine gate]

Same way you entered, just set it back to live

Also, IK2 beta isnt on quest, are you on the wrong chat?

[wooden lion]

i'm pleasantly surprised by how much measure by height just works without that many issues in most cases

[vague crypt]

Anyone have tested out PhysBones yet?

[prisma meadow]

ik 2.0 doesnt work in the dynamics beta

[delicate prairie]

Code??

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-stress-stress-meme-gif-23427373

[gleaming igloo]

No code, just select the beta in the drop down and it auto installs

[winged obsidian]

what is the ik-2 beta?

[oak pendant]

#open-beta-announcements message

[zenith whale]

Does the IK beta also fix the viewpoint issue when you lay down?

[final raven]

In ‘“lock head” and “lock all” mode yes.

[torn nacelle]

Every single one of the avatars I tested this morning completely broke with the beta so I’m not even a little exited about the update. In fact I don’t even want it at this point. It’s not worth it imo

[acoustic snow]

The current (now legacy) IK is gonna stay in vrchat.

[torn nacelle]

Oh thank god. That’s a huge relief 😮‍💨

[devout current]

and you can also make canny about what you don't like 😉

[minor rampart]

yeah, it does.

you don't need lock head or lock all to improve things.

it's dramatically improved over live IK.

it's just if you don't want it to shift or move AT ALL guaranteed, you use lock head or lock all

[zenith glacier]

if you would provide additional information on what kind of issues they are getting, it would help out on potentially fixing them you know?

[ionic heron]

^ https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20 make or vote for a canny post, otherwise the issue won't be fixed

[edgy ember]

Hello :) I was wondering if anyone can help me activate the dynamic bones on my quest 2 I've read the things here but I'm still very confused:/

[ionic heron]

This channel is for the beta for the new IK, not for physics bones - see the top of #open-beta-info c:

[signal elm]

Instead of the weird walking my legs do this now, yay

[timid lichen]

Ik-2 seems to break a bunch of parent constraint set ups that i use.

World constraint type things, and parent constraints to my hand and avatar root for particles.

When i set my particle constraint to my avatar root, it moves dramatically in opposition to my head movements.
My main avatar feature, a world constrained pet system, does the same thing.

[robust tangle]

Curious which ones you are seeing that broke. To my knowledge, the only stuff that breaks are the stuff using rig hax they've been saying to stop using 2 years ago

maybe longer

[torn nacelle]

I don’t even know what a rig hax is 🤣

[timid lichen]

^

same, and many of my models are pretty broken too.

[rustic berry]

rig hacks are tricks that people used to make the IK behave a certain way by moving/rotating bones in certain ways that aren't standard

[robust tangle]

the main one is upsidedown hip bones

or backwards chests

in the new IK that will give you... an upsidedown hip and an actually backwards chest.

Normally, those problems only showed up for fullbody users and made their life annoying. in the new IK, it gets to annoy everyone.

Maybe now people will stop xD

[zenith glacier]

you could send a screenshot for example to let us see how your issues look like, we might help telling whats wrong

[devout current]

actually inverted hips work fine right now

[digital grove]

weren't you the one complaining about some model with inverted hip that wasn't working "correctly"?

[devout current]

yes, but it works now

ik inverted hips etc shouldn't be used, but there are so many old and sometimes also no longer updated avatars which would all break

[dusky ridge]

Do you guys have any idea how to upload a Avatar?

[ionic heron]

That's unrelated to the IK beta, #avatar-help would be more suited to that - you'll need Unity 2019.4.31f1, the most recent version of the VRChat SDK, and some modelling software of some kind, likely Blender c:
https://vrchat.com/home/download
https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/setting-up-the-sdk
There's tons of SDK3 tutorials out there (i.e from Sippbox, M.O.O.N, the official VRChat learning channel, and etc), along with channels like #avatar-help, #3d-modeling, #avatar-rigging and etc

[raw wadi]

No

[dusky ridge]

Right i have it already but when i click upload it seems it can't find the file that it's looking for

[spare mist]

if the name of the root avatar object (the one you have the descriptor on) has characters that aren't supported in filenames then it'll break the upload

[thick pivot]

how do i make hair move dynamically with this I am currently having trouble

help?

[lethal light]

You should probably ask in the #open-beta-discussion , as this is for the IK beta

[thick pivot]

oops

srry but they were arguing like crazu

[frosty sluice]

Anyone know how to revert the beta in vrchat

I switched back to the live version on oculus and it still hasn’t reverted

[vital inlet]

how do you download the openbeta with only quest 2

its not working for me

[raw wadi]

Not sure if the IK beta is on quest

[lethal light]

It is not

[vital inlet]

ok

[coral cairn]

idk why it never occured to me before, but height change + playspace is straight up not an option on quest, and that's a huge portion of the vrc playerbase. Will probably be more going forward if physbones works out.

[raw wadi]

Why 3pt need height change?

[acoustic snow]

Aligning the floor can be a reason

[raw wadi]

If the avatar origin is placed correctly. Shouldn't be issue

[acoustic snow]

mmmk

go try out some anime avis

legs long as shit, they clip the floor if you go by arm length

[raw wadi]

Was arm length what is currently the default? Avatar are usually above the ground

Maybe the sole a little on some

[rough stream]

Or tip toeing everywhere

[raw wadi]

Probably the floor height is wrong

[carmine gate]

https://raytracing-benchmarks.are-really.cool/3EuK3bL.mp4
Please for the love of god, thanks.

[fiery plinth]

If you make it smaller than the generated one, vrchat will just use the generated one. Bigger is fine for camera cull reasons though. Is this ik2 related

[carmine gate]

it's related to tiptoeing, which I wouldnt want people assuming is related to IK2.0, so if they have it happen on their avatar, they should check this.

and then see if it's still happening

[subtle rune]

It would be cool if the ik2 beta was on quest

[lost nacelle]

Hmm, the IK beta is not terrible but I absolutely despise the new locomotion animations with FBT, they're just unnatural and awkward. I feel like I'll need to look into getting an animation override now.

[oak pendant]

You can vote on the canny for that here: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/request-revert-full-body-hip-movement-animation

[lost nacelle]

Thank you lots

[uncut holly]

I don't know if others have encountered this, but in IK Beta 2 I've encountered an issue where my friends on Live are stuck at spawn either in a T-Pose state, or their last position my game recieved.
They can see me move, but for me they're stuck.

[harsh lagoon]

happens in different worlds?

and different avatars maybe?

[uncut holly]

It happened once off, I'll test again once I get on again

[oak pendant]

If you're testing some more, there's a difference for how the pose during a user's t-pose calibration is transmitted on live vs IK-Beta. If it's while the live user is calibrating, it's expected/known that there may be some strange behavior. If it happens at all times / when they're not calibrating, that's unexpected but would still be low priority because this would only be an issue during the beta period and would be solved by everyone being on the same build. If it happens between IK-Beta users that's high priority and make sure to set up a canny with any steps you found to reproduce the issue in that case.

You can still set up a canny for it with your findings too in any case even if it's only seen on live users from the perspective of IK-Beta users.

[uncut holly]

Player in the bird avatar is a non-FBT user, so it was a surprise seeing his avatar in a t-pose state.
I'll be hopping on later this evening, and I'll make a canny if this happens again

[final sphinx]

Cool you guys broke noclipping

My arms act like a desktop player when im outside of a collider

[devout current]

Is this now a good or bad thing ? XD

[final sphinx]

1: right hand stuck in wall
2: hand working outside of collider
3: left hand stuck in collider

Bad

Noclipping in vanilla is kinda broken now without arm control

Stop breaking useful shit plz

[ionic heron]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20

[final sphinx]

Ye

I dont wanna install mods for this, hope theyll fix it in the next update and not keep it like this

Theyre nuking every cool thing and most of the time taking away features like that without a replacement

[tranquil cipher]

what exactly do you mean by noclipping?

[ionic heron]

[final sphinx]

I can post a vid

[tranquil cipher]

is that a world feature or an avatar feature?

[final sphinx]

av3 and ovra

[tranquil cipher]

so playspace mover?

[final sphinx]

requires av3

[tranquil cipher]

huh?

I know that you can move with av3, and I know you can move with ovra, but I'm not aware of any technique that combines both

[final sphinx]

Thats what i mean by noclipping

Nvm i cant reproduce it anymore

[tranquil cipher]

that's always been like that

[final sphinx]

Was a temporary thing

[tidal trellis]

hax

[desert lion]

if you use the 'disable locomotion' state behavior while you playspace move, your avatar will go through the wall while tracking correctly

[final sphinx]

Yep

[desert lion]

Yeah!

[final sphinx]

The arms broke for me for some reason (screenshots)

Thought this was permanent as i never had this before, my bad

[fierce bay]

the ik 2 added hip/head lock buttons, and an auto in game height adjust button, which is more accurate if you do it manually.
i'm still seeing jerky movements and clipping too.

[final sphinx]

Nah the arm thing happens randomly

[fierce bay]

i meant clipping through the chest and doesn't wrap around. not the clipping you were talking about.

[zenith glacier]

but its unrelated to ik stuff and this is the ik channel 🤷‍♂️

[fathom gust]

Has IK 2 already been released?

[bleak anvil]

No

[fathom gust]

Ahhh okay

[errant cypress]

oh me dum dum and miss clicked channels. let me move it up.

[empty solar]

does anyone have a reference rig for the new IK system?

[fickle tangle]

How do you get out of beta on quest?

[silver geyser]

basically same process you did to get it onto the beta but you select live and then reinstall

[fickle tangle]

Wait

Okay

[sleek plume]

I've done that three times, not working for me

[prisma meadow]

im trying to scale my avatar to my exact proportions. Is there a good way to do that outside of guessing and checking

[loud patio]

I was told to hold off on this. The scaling and proportions may change throughout this beta so don't do anything to your avatar until IK2.0 is out of beta

[prisma meadow]

i assume that if i get my proportions exact not much will change no matter what they do

[loud patio]

Proportions have changed actually already since the beta's release

[prisma meadow]

like in blender if i scale each bone to its actual irl length

[loud patio]

That won't work as VRChat has it's own system to scale your arms and legs to the avatar

[prisma meadow]

well they got the scale to floor thing

[loud patio]

It's not as simple as that since everyone is different

Right and that's the best we have so far

[prisma meadow]

I use 10 pt also. so i need the proportions to be as exact as possible

[tranquil cipher]

hold off on weird rig hacks or generalized "best practices", but by all means feel free to tweak it to adjust to your own body better

[prisma meadow]

ya. Im just thinking thats theres gonna be a better system to scale proportions to yourself than trial and error

[tranquil cipher]

usually people just take a picture of themselves in tpose and line it up

try to take the picture from as far away as possible and zoomed in, so that it's not distorted by angles

[loud patio]

I also use 10 point so I understand. However like I said it's almost impossible to scale every avatar to any person since everyone has different proportions themselves and so does every avatar have different armature setups. This tool can auto-scale your avatar to 'ideal' proportions however again, IK2.0 may change the way scaling works and so this tool might break your avatar in the future. Also the tool is very hit or miss depending on your armature
https://github.com/triazo/immersive_scaler

[prisma meadow]

im just trying to scale a singlular avatar to myself

not trying to scale it to everyone or anything

[loud patio]

Right but unless you know your exact human bone proportions to a tee and have an avatar with those exact scales, you're not going to get it perfect

[tranquil cipher]

that's what they're asking to do though

[prisma meadow]

hypothetically then. how then would you scale each irl bone to a blender bone

[tranquil cipher]

it will always help to have an avatar that is closer to your real proportions. The scaling changes are to help with avatars that are not scaled to your real proportions

[prisma meadow]

when i look in blender I can only scale a bone based on its current size. But i need to know how to scale that bone to an actual measurement

[tranquil cipher]

take a picture of yourself, put it in blender, line it up with your avatar, scale the avatar to the picture

[loud patio]

It's not worth the effort. I suggest just using the Immersive Scaler tool and seeing what it does

[prisma meadow]

already have done

[loud patio]

Then you'll need to do trial and error

[tranquil cipher]

the immersive scaler tool is just a quick guess to fix avatars that are wildly wrong, it's not going to match to any specific person

[prisma meadow]

so there is no way to scale bones to a measurement then

[tranquil cipher]

I literally just told you

take a picture of yourself, put it in blender, line it up with your avatar, scale the avatar to the picture

[prisma meadow]

I know that you can do it that way.

just entertain me. is it possible to do that?

[tranquil cipher]

yes

[silver geyser]

just you would have to do the work yourself as far as scaling the Avatar to match the picture

[tranquil cipher]

that is how people do it when they want absolute precision

[safe veldt]

so in blender you can actually measure by imperial or metric theres an addon called "measure it" you can see how long the bones are

[tranquil cipher]

getting an actual measurement of your real bones isn't possible without a full body xray

a picture of yourself is the next best thing, and you can just eyeball it pretty closely

[prisma meadow]

i can get within an inch or so

[safe veldt]

yea that's probably as close as youre gonna get, theres also the thing of that a 3d armature isnt gonna align with how an actual human skeleton works

usually the thigh bones are lower in 3d, spines in the middle of the torso instead of the back, stuff like that

[coral cairn]

before vrchat had the problem where if you measured your avatar to be perfectly to your proportions and then moved it into vrchat, it'd be pretty far off because of vrchat's scaling, so it always made sense to prioritize what vrchat did. That's what immersive scaler did well. It's still the best bet if you want to use arm scaling, but what it does now is it makes it so that arm scaling matches height scaling for any given avatar.

[tranquil cipher]

the new scaling does make the difference between legs/arms a bit less important. But elbow and knee trackers make it apparent that shoulder width and hip width also matters!

[coral cairn]

I may actually do a running release of immersive scaler with the current constants, people using it are probably already on the beta and I can leave a note for the new release, it's miles better than using the old constants anyway, then just rerelease it later once the constants change again.

[coral cairn]

but more importantly I think imscale needs to change purpose a bit. Arm scalling == leg scaling is no longer the gold standard for avatars fitting, and you can get much better. Maybe actually do a thing where you input tailor measurements or something.

[oak pendant]

With scale-to-height now available to users, the arm span based scale factor is even more subject to change. I had given an attempt to tune its accuracy, but people were getting very confused about the difference in scale, and no way to have the exact same scaling as in legacy. With scale-to-height I no longer view scale-to-arm as a mode enthusiast users (chasing simulation style accuracy) would use.

[tranquil cipher]

yeah, tailor measurements are a good standard that people could get anywhere. I don't know anything about that, but in theory if you can take those measurements and translate that to the position and scale of the bones then it might work

[oak pendant]

I think there's more than a 50/50 chance that the arm scale factor gets reverted so that it's exactly the same as legacy was, just to lower friction and confusion for people moving to IK2.0

[coral cairn]

Including the neck/head swap?

[oak pendant]

If I fully revert it, then yes. The initial idea was to increase consistency and accuracy, but scale to height excels in that

So scale to arm's main function would shift to be more of a mode to let people have new IK2.0 features with scaling that they're used to.

[coral cairn]

Do you know what the thought behind scaling to head in the first place was?

[oak pendant]

Scaling to head? Just checking because it sounds like you mean scale to arm there

[coral cairn]

the choice to measure wrist to head instead of wrist to neck. I was always confused by that.

[oak pendant]

Ah

Well it's possible to have a humanoid avatar without a neck bone, so that could have been the reason. I wasn't part of that original decision though.

scaling arm-to-neck gives a less diagonal line measuring out towards the tpose so it's more consistent for the vast majority of avatars that have a neck bone. But if the avatar doesn't have a neck it'll switch back to measuring to the head.

[coral cairn]

Just from when I was asking around, people seemed to like the new scaling more, people not scaling by height. Personally I think somewhere between the two would be best, as people were still maxing out and reaching past arms. That's still a pretty small sample compared to all of vrc. Could also be some shoulder dynamics but I'm not as knowledgeable on that.

Do you think there's something to be said for oddly proportioned avatars with say, really long necks (maybe a robot or something)? If you're just measuring based on 3 points the head is legitimately farther from the hands than in a short neck, but if you're just measuring from the neck that change won't be reflected.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I think that scaling to neck is still going to be more consistent, but it might be better for the initial release of IK2.0 to keep the default scaling on the default setting the same as legacy. A lot of initial bug reports and other issues people had like thinking that 10pt didn't work correctly, or the floor height was bugged in some case turned out to be confusion over what all scale affects and that scale was different

Later on an incremental update could be made to for example measure from neck, because I agree that it's the more consistent method.

[vital inlet]

…

[oak pendant]

But because the scale by height alternative now exists, I'm thinking it may be better to have scale by arm the same factor and method as legacy. It would be a shame for users to miss out on IK2.0 just because they don't like the scale change and thinking something is "wrong" with their avatar so they hit the legacy toggle.

That's not set in stone, but wanted to mention it as I see people already starting to try to adjust avatars etc (tried to warn before too that it will likely change over course of beta)

[vital inlet]

The beta features were nice

[final raven]

What is scale-by-arm done by currently? Have kept up with the convo as best I could but still not certain of the technical details.

[oak pendant]

Currently on IK-Beta scale-by-arm will measure from wrist to the neck and it uses a new scale factor that in general would cause the avatar to fit more tightly

[tiny token]

did the hands always move with fbt loco on? like they separate from my controllers

[tiny token]

i prefer this to needing to lie about my height

[oak pendant]

The idea is that now the new scale-by-height option solves the issue with people needing to lie about User Heal Height, and makes scaling arms much simpler for people interested in doing that (if your arms are too long, just make them shorter in blender)

And because the scale-by-height option exists for that segment of users, previous efforts messing with scale-by-arms might be reverted because although it was technically a better fit, it caused issues with confusion over the new scale, and also split opinions on the tendency to increase IRL arm over-reach issues.

[final raven]

That's one thing I definitely like about the new scaling method yeah: user real height actually needs to be accurate now.

[strong sundial]

Scale by height doesn't work well for avatars with heels in my experience.
But the current scale factor on scale by arm actually works really well for them and it would be a shame if it was changed back

[rustic berry]

hey kung, any updates on chest tracker talks? or about being able to have trackers not just be rotation hints, but actually also track position?

[oak pendant]

I think the benefit you're seeing there though was a pain for a lot of other people, that being trackers ending up in an offset position vs the foot bone (with all else equal when compared to legacy scaling)

Handling offset foot positions where you don't wear heels IRL but your avatar has them will be an edge case that requires a bit of user work around. Adjusting default behavior for that would cause more issues for more people overall

(the way you'd work around it is use scale by height, slightly decrease user real height beyond IRL and playspace move to fix floor height)

[strong sundial]

I understand, it is more edge case behavior.
I think problems like this also really show the use case for a canny like this: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/provide-in-depth-ik-configuration-options-for-enthusiasts. Allow us to actually change the scale factor without needing to break TOS. The current live scale factor works better for most people, but for edge cases it would be nice to change it to the beta scale factor without having to do weird workarounds

[oak pendant]

No updates, meaning the sentiments expressed in the canny posts are still accurate, that being "looking into it / interested"

[rustic berry]

gotcha, thanks. if there's anything we can do to help, like providing feedback or testing, I'm sure me and knah would be more than happy to help 👍

[tiny token]

for some reason i feel like this didnt happen before

[scenic fern]

pretty sure they did not

[oak pendant]

At this point I think I've gotten a good amount of info on people's expectations for how they'd use it, though if you have anything more to add in that context feel free to add it to the canny posts. Beyond that, there are a lot of other little issues people reported that are currently ahead of it as I work through things.

[oak pendant]

Can you be more specific by what you mean about the hands moving?

[tiny token]

affected by loco animation

[strong sundial]

When moving in fbt with the animations on. Your hands are like 2 inches behind where they actually are and it's jarring

[oak pendant]

I see what you mean, is this with a custom locomotion layer?

[devout current]

With it being reverted to the same sacling as the old IK would there even be a need for the old IK to still be there?

[tiny token]

yes but i havent changed it in a while. locomotionfix v5

[strong sundial]

I also was on a custom locomotion layer. An older version of the same one. I havent tested without it on

[oak pendant]

I believe currently if there's an offset at your viewpoint, there will also be the same offset at your hands. This is probably something that can be handled better by IK2.0 yeah

[oak pendant]

Yeah the legacy toggle is still needed. There are a lot of little changes, and FBT affects things in very personal an intricate ways for people. So I'm keen on not forcing changes of any kind on anyone.

Who knows, maybe someone was using the spine-twist issue as a feature somehow 😅

[devout current]

xD

[oak pendant]

"This change is the worst, my helicopter avatars no longer function!"

[devout current]

xD

Makes sense though, I mean the system for to use the old Ik is still there

so no real reason to remove it

Oh and btw any estimate on when we can expect an update for the IK beta?

[tiny token]

ok with locofixv5, head lock gets overridden by animation

i feel like i would have noticed this before. im going crazy

kung can i dm a recording

[oak pendant]

No precise time set there, but because live has moved on to 2022.1.1p2 I'd like to get a patch out with that rolled in somewhat soon. I was biting off a bunch of little things for the next update so originally it was going to be awhile but I might just need to do something smaller and sooner to get that rolled in

[devout current]

I mean it's network compatibile, so why not wait until Avatar Dynamics is out of beta?

No real reason to upgrade to the current live version tbh

You could technically also just update it to the live version without any IK changes in it, just so they are both based on the live version.

[oak pendant]

This may already be reported on canny: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/when-hipanimation-in-tracking-control-headhmd-movement-is-also-seems-ignored

[final carbon]

Hello.
I don't know if IK is directly related to this, but I was very happy to see that the update no longer sucks your feet on the ground when walking.
Frankly, this is the only feature I would like to see updated at this time.
（Of course there's a lot to be happy about, like my arm now stretches properly and my shoulder doesn't twist anymore!）
https://twitter.com/0ne_chan/status/1500739130036461581

みよこ_Miyoko (@0ne_chan)

新しいIKならLower Bodyの
「Force Locomotion animations for 6 point tracking」をオンにしててもピョコピョコならないんだ…！？ﾔｯﾀｰ！（IKの問題とは違うかもしれないけど）
#VRChat https://t.co/vPgZG81awq

▶ Play video

Twitter · Mar 7, 2022, 7:44 AM

[oak pendant]

There are a few bug fixes from p2 that would be good to get in. Anyway, no exact time set for next update to IK-Beta but would like to do soon

[devout current]

Okay, thanks for letting me know though ^^

[tiny token]

was there a ik beta update today

[oak pendant]

Please leave your feedback here too. If I implement what's suggested in this canny, the benefit that you're seeing in that video would be reverted/gone: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/request-revert-full-body-hip-movement-animation

[oak pendant]

no, it's been awhile since last update

[devout current]

exactly 6 days ago to be specific

[tiny token]

im going insane

[final carbon]

Oh... I get it!

[oak pendant]

Yeah that canny wants the hip height to match with the hip in the walk animation, so it would have to be pulled back down again.

[devout current]

btw Kung, are you planning to allow for more complicated spine setups? I sadly still have the issue that the new IK straightens out my spine & chest bone

if I rember correctly we already talked about it when the beta came out and you said that if there is a canny for it you might implement a fix for it, just wondering if there is any update on it ^^

this is tbh basically the only issue I still have with the new IK personally xD

[oak pendant]

It's still currently in the state of may or may not account for. I'd say it's too early to go through and adjust avatars' rigs for because one of the goals of IK2.0 is to support more rig types. But, the question is if supporting this causes more issues / limitations for all rigs overall.

'Just do it like legacy' isn't an option there because legacy is much stiffer at the spine-chest interface, which allows for holding on to rest pose angles there. IK2.0 allows more bend there and that's ideal for most cases, but treats a spine with a built in crimp as available slack to be used in solving the spine curve.

Letting the rest angles through while still solving the bone rotations pointing along the curve is technically possible, but more of a hacky solution. Right now it's medium low priority. Once I can get to trying out solutions and ensuring that they don't negatively impact users without a spine crimp built in, it may be put in, but still in a "we'll see" state right now

[devout current]

Hm yeah that's understandable, but if the goal of IK 2.0 is to support more rig types it's defiantly something that should be implemented tbh. Every Rexouium Avatar as an example has a bit of a rotated spine & chest (and there are a lot of these Avatars). Would be sad if everyone of these would start to look a bit weird in IK 2.0 compared to the old IK.

[devout current]

Okay, thanks for letting me know ^^

[digital grove]

I thought you said your inverted hip was fixed

[devout current]

That's something completly different

This has nothing to do with IK hacks or anything

This is the canny for it:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-bone-gets-moved-back-when-its-not-directly-above-spine-tilted-a-bit

[lone knot]

My avatar has issues with the toe bone bending upward, checked both versions and it only happens in the beta, just thought I should post it here incase theres a fix

[fiery plinth]

It was mentioned to be involved with the crouch animation blending in funnylike

[zenith glacier]

@tiny token yeah, the one kung mentions there is the one which affects the locofix as well. I already posted my assumption on what happens there as well

[zenith glacier]

and to give a short list of when locomotion has issues/breaks:
IK beta:

• locomotion animation of custom controllers (like gogolocomotion or locomotionfix) lock the head whenever they set hip to animation as well (this is a bug already reported)
  https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/when-hipanimation-in-tracking-control-headhmd-movement-is-also-seems-ignored
• hip movement seems to look odd (what others say) - has a canny as well
  https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/request-revert-full-body-hip-movement-animation

Physbone beta:

• locomotion can completely break when dynamic or physbone component is on the hip bone (this one is known as well to the vr devs, just to tell you to make the list complete)

Pretty sure franada for gogolocomotion is aware of all of this, as i am for locomotionfix.

[torpid helm]

I'm currently making my first avatar, with full body tracking I was having issues with the hip tilting sideways, so I tried the IK beta and everything worked great.
I've followed the documentation as closely as possible for the rig/skeleton, so I'm happy that the new IK works well as long as you follow the rules and doesn't require any weird adjustments.

[dull lily]

Ohh, that's why my gliding locomotion avatar's hands seem to desynch with my own when I move. Good to know..

[subtle arrow]

So can't check the feedback since til tonight, but has anyone talked about the IK for the shoulders with elbow trackers. I was trying out the beta last night and was surprised it doesn't allow shoulder shrugging. The way the solver handled me shrugging actually required it to move the elbows away from the tracked location instead of allowing the shoulder bones to rotate

[prisma meadow]

think we need a chest tracker for shrugging

[subtle arrow]

I'm having trouble imagining a solution for the IK bone positions when both upper arms move upward that isn't the shoulder moving up but has the chest bone rotate.

[waxen tree]

whats the difference between ik-2 and the open beta?

[subtle arrow]

IK-2 is just the beta for the new IK system in VRChat, open beta is for the avatar dynamics (phys bones and avatar interactions). they are separate branches. IK-2 is compatible with live networking, open beta for avatar dynamics is not compatible with live networking

[raw wadi]

I know SDK 2 avatar don't get smack on the ground when playspace now

[cyan parrot]

Can anyone confirm that the digitgrade leg constraint workaround breaks with the new IK? And, for bonus points, are there any fixes for it?

[dusk anvil]

i have noticed that while my more porportionate avatars feel better with height scale, less porportionate ones feel wonky (which is likely intentional)
so while height measurement is good for my main avatars, arm length measurement is good for a lot of the other avatars i may use because they're less humanly porportionate

considering how many users may use less porportionate avatars for whatever reason i now think that maybe arm scale should still be the default maybe probably

height scale is still a pretty good option though for those with more porportionate avatars though, and to be fair, there's not much of a difference switching between the two in more human scale avatars.

[halcyon shadow]

This is where i am suppose to ask for help regarding the beta right? Cuz i got a problem and not the slightest idea on how to fix it.

I had an avatar, i autocoverted all the dynamic bone to psy bone, i test uploaded it after checking in unity to see if everything works, not a single bone is jiggly in VRC but they all are in unity.

[zenith glacier]

#open-beta-discussion this is is IK Beta

[halcyon shadow]

Oh my bad.

[final flint]

Hi, this might have been asked/answered already, but can someone explain the "Lock" head and hip function?

[silver geyser]

Lock head the head always stays accurate but the hips might drift. Lock hip the hip always stays accurate but the head might drift. .lock both both of them stay accurate but it turns your spine into a pretzel to do it if need be if your avatar proportions don't match your actual body

[final flint]

drift?