ik-2

[hot fulcrum]

try on live also and see if it on both or not.

also try other avatar (maybe public one) to see any local issue theory

[floral turret]

So go on the beta vrchat

And no it doesn't work for any avatars

[hot fulcrum]

try live and ik beta, both.
also check any existing canny for it.

[floral turret]

Nope nothing

[hot fulcrum]

then...looks for existing canny (mayin in beta section or in general).
If nothing exist, make new canny

[timber grove]

Tracking and ik section in big menu

[floral turret]

Were can I find it in the big menu @timber grove

It's not there @timber grove

[timber grove]

what about the ik section in quick menu

[floral turret]

Ya doesn't work @timber grove

Hey @stoic jetty could you help me please 🙏

No one can help me out please 🙏

[timber grove]

Those settings will only appear if your trackers are on

[hot fulcrum]

(Also don't spam mention people .... you need to be patient)

[floral turret]

My tracker is on. I can click the button where it says locomotion animation but it just doesn't work for me

[stoic jetty]

Sorry, I don't work on avatars! (Or customer support! 😅)

[floral turret]

It's fine I was just wondering if you could help all good sorry @stoic jetty

[stoic jetty]

No worries! I hope you'll find a solution. Good luck!

[floral turret]

I hope so I love vrchat

[crimson mountain]

There's still a toggle in Unity on your avatar's descriptor for force locomotion animations. I'm not sure how that syncs with the FBT locomotion toggle but I suspect if that's toggled on in Unity that'll be what's causing you to still have those animations even if it's toggled off in-game

[floral turret]

Okay 👍

[left locust]

did the osc query update not get pushed to ik beta?

[final raven]

Not yet. Kung's work day isn't over yet I believe so there's still some time left~

#ik-2 message

[left locust]

ah ok

[stiff light]

swag

[past spruce]

woah, those are some big updates👀

[oak pendant]

Yeah, I'm very glad to be able to get that network rotation jitter fix in

[vestal ridge]

👀 yo is that the immobilisation thing

[lean zodiac]

KUNG i love youuuu

really really, THANK you for that jitter fix its been in the game so long now

[oak pendant]

Yeah, very similar to that but with mitigations to the downsides

[vestal ridge]

yooo

[honest apex]

Mitigation to the turning jitter~ able to share how it was accomplished?
Does the player root still rotate?

[lyric shore]

late night ik beta 👀

[oak pendant]

Yeah, pretty much that. GetRotation on the player object will continue to give the head-rotated orientation

[lean zodiac]

kung needs a pay raise frfr so much work

[honest apex]

neat

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134159699755933787/makesweet-rprfei.gif

obligatory

[lean zodiac]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134159699755933787/makesweet-rprfei.gif

yes

[hot fulcrum]

nice one Kung

[mossy tendon]

oo, will look forward to testing that

[oak pendant]

Ah, I may have missed your edit. The player root doesn't rotate when in FBT now, unless you're locomoting. But GetRotation on the player object via Udon will continue to always give the head-rotated orientation (so you can spawn an object "in front" of the user for example)

[rapid goblet]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134159699755933787/makesweet-rprfei.gif

[honest apex]

Great way to do that!

What I was hoping for honestly 🙏

[oak pendant]

One thing to note, there's also handling for networking tweening when you were facing the wrong way and started locomoting, but for live users to see that they'll need to wait for full live release of the ik-beta changes

[hot fulcrum]

understandable

[honest apex]

So they could see you snap for a few frames if drastically changing directions?

[oak pendant]

It's a very minor thing that doesn't really break "live compatibility" but it means if you locomote, turn 180 in playspace and then locomote again, the live users will see a quick turn as the player root aligns with locomotion

[honest apex]

survivable quirk

[oak pendant]

More like trying to tween the rotation of the root while you're already facing that way in FBT, so kind of like a very short exaggerated version of the jitter that was always present before this update. Anyway that's unavoidable until live gets the part of the update to have special handling there

But live will still see the effect of not always rotating the player root in all other circumstances, so the fix largely carries over for viewers on live

[honest apex]

Understandable
Though I think 95% of the friends I visit in VRC will be on IK beta now anyway

[tardy dune]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/845804212075233310/943898868049928322/20220217_075428.gif

[devout current]

Wait what?! Network IK jitter has been fixed?!

I didn't expect to see that in this beta

[hot fulcrum]

then.....enjoy
and good morning.

[tawdry hound]

rejoice now, for the wiggles have been vanquished at long last

[devout current]

How does this work? Can we just calibrate with one controller by pulling the trigger on said controller?

[final raven]

I assume it's just pulling the trigger of the controller that's currently active.

[wheat river]

new build aaaa

[oak pendant]

It's an option in the main menu. When one-handed-calibration is enabled, pulling either trigger will lock in the calibration

[devout current]

Ahh

[wheat river]

Very nice surprise!

Kung, would you mind explaining how you reduced the jitter over the network? Is it the "stopping locomotion" fix?

[oak pendant]

It's similar to other fixes that immobilized the player. If you're in FBT then your player object won't rotate unless you're locomoting (moving around via joystick etc)

However if an Udon script does GetRotation on the player object it will still give the rotation as if it had rotated with the head's facing direction

[devout current]

👍

[lethal bridge]

Kung doing the work of the heavens

[devout current]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134160577695064115/makesweet-srmafp.gif

[wheat river]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134160577695064115/makesweet-srmafp.gif

Very nice 👍

[deft spruce]

Perfect

[sullen bloom]

Will the one handed calibration only occur when you only have one controller active or will it also be a toggle in the menu?

Edit: I can't scroll up and read apparently

[empty root]

what a blessing for etees

(the trigger sucks)

[north lagoon]

hey guys just double checking does the latest IK beta include the fixes to the camera

[hot fulcrum]

it include ik beta fix top of live fix.
if it fixed for live, it fixed on ik beta too

[north lagoon]

👍

[timber grove]

what was wrong with the camera? I don't think I saw anything weird

[devout current]

Look At Me & Auto Level didn't work as people wanted them to anymore.
It originally kept the camera leveled while still following the player on the yaw axis. Recently it got changed to where it just ignores that Auto Level was enabled and would just normally follow the player.
This change got reverted in the last open beta though.

[severe arrow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134159699755933787/makesweet-rprfei.gif

[robust tangle]

Woo! Freeze tracker fixed

[pulsar pelican]

Very happy for the one handed calibration <3

[grand lynx]

the no more foot wiggle with head move is amazing

kung is doing work

[deft spruce]

I noticed that when one Tracker gets occluded from a Base Station’s visibility, it doesn’t drift off for a few seconds before freezing anymore. It just stays at the last known position.

Just another welcoming change I noticed with the latest IK Betas.

[golden yacht]

Super happy about the one handed calibration!

[vital inlet]

Maybe this? https://github.com/SouljaVR/AutoImmobilizeOSC

[mystic urchin]

No

[vital inlet]

4 Minutes until your bedtime.

[lean zodiac]

For some reason (I think it's the head jitter fix), other desktop users have this weird janky animation when locomotioning.

we are both on ik beta

[oak pendant]

Thanks, confirmed. Working on a fix

[lean zodiac]

🙏

[oak pendant]

Ok this should be fixed now

Note that for FBT users, some very small period of not tweening the animation is needed to not counter-rotate with the entire root as it aligns for locomotion, and this is expected

[deep forge]

Kung doing god's work

[oak pendant]

But the bug was it was affecting all users (3pt, desktop etc)

[lean zodiac]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134159699755933787/makesweet-rprfei.gif

[lean zodiac]

Yeah I noticed that

Just a little compared to the desktop users before lol

and 3pt

It was pretty funny not gonna lie

[oak pendant]

Yeah, it could look particularly bad on desktop

[lean zodiac]

Especially if they’re spamming their ASWD keys

glad it’s good now tho I’ll check it out in a bit

by the way, when I lay down in 6pt, my hips look a little weird like my tummy is folding in a little bit compared to lock head, is that normal/expected behavior?

[oak pendant]

I'd need a screenshot to know if it was expected, but it sounds plausible. If your TPose has a forward bend (like hero-pose puffed out chest) baked into the spine, because the default TPose orientations of the bones are now carried through the IK solving, it will have influence there as well

So unless you're laying plank-flat I assume there's some curve towards your tummy which would be possibly fighting against the baked in TPose curve (if your avatar as that) causing it to max out quickly on the compression fail state

[lean zodiac]

The avatar uses the “Selestia” booth base if you are familiar with it

[oak pendant]

That's just a guess without seeing what's going on though

[lean zodiac]

I’m not sure if it has it tbh (the baked tpose)

[oak pendant]

Yeah I can't view from the booth page

you'd be able to see how it behaves when you calibrate

especially if you view in the bone checking world I'm often recommending for debugging https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2 (huge thanks to kurotori for making that world btw)

A screenshot of the calibration TPose (from the side) and also of the offending pose when lying down would probably be enough to know what's going on

[lean zodiac]

I will take a look at it in there

Okok

[oak pendant]

There will be some avatars that still don't work well with lock-both though

But at least I might be able to see why if that's the case

[lean zodiac]

I do love lock both now ngl

I always used lock head before

I’ll take those screenshots when I get back to my pc

[lean zodiac]

Left is Head, Right is Both

Left is Both, Right is Head

[finite basin]

Thank you for fixing the avatar thrashing when laying down and rotating the head issue!

I did some testing last night with some friends also on the ik beta and it's reduced so much now.

[oak pendant]

Hmm yeah I think the bones are moving as expected. And actually doesn't look all that bad to me. There's a bit that could be improved with the weight painting at the bottom of the ribcage area maybe. You could also lower he hip bone to elongate the spine for compression over a wider area. But yeah I think this appears to be working as intended

[devout current]

Btw what do you plan on changing / implementing before pushing this beta to live? @oak pendant

[hot fulcrum]

roadmap....what would be like

[oak pendant]

There isn't a good way to answer that concretely, but IK-Beta has been getting pretty good response from testers last few updates, so hopefully no large changes are needed.

[hot fulcrum]

[raw wadi]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/1332-trackingtype-get-stuck-on-the-same-value-if-freeze-tracking-on-disconect-is

[nimble turtle]

Wasn't that also the case in live?

[raw wadi]

the TrackingType was changing since freeze tracking is not in live

[raw wadi]

Well now thinking about it, it should stay the same as we it does

[nimble turtle]

I've defiantly seen the reported behaviour on live (with freeze trackers on disconnect set), Funnily enough I noticed it because of gogo

[lean zodiac]

yeah.... was my first time weight painting something completely.
but that's good to know that it is working as intended, just wanted to make sure.

thank you for all your hard work kung

[charred pulsar]

launched vrchat for the first time after the new ik2 beta update and my pc bluescreened ☹️

[oak pendant]

Woah, sorry to hear that. There are some links for contacting support here: #vrchat-support. I know "contact support" might sound like 🙄 but at least from my perspective inside the team they're very active with helping support tickets and are the best ones to know all the edge case troubleshooting tips.

I really hope you're able to get the issue sorted out. I'm glad the ik-beta boosted your interest in vrc

[charred pulsar]

no worries, i'm not too worried about it haha. i launched again after my pc did some updating and restarting and it worked fine. could have been my fault instead of the vrc application's

not sure if i can replicate it but i can still put a support ticket if that helps you guys out!

[oak pendant]

Oh nice that it's working! I think if it's working for you now then you don't need to.

Support is for helping people solve their individual issues, so sounds like it's solved for you for now at least. But if it occurs again then you could contact them. Then on the other side there's the Canny board: https://feedback.vrchat.com/ which is where bug reports etc go, which is the place for helping out with info on categorizing issues and replication steps

[charred pulsar]

sounds good ^^b thanks for all your hard work on the ik2 beta!

[raw wadi]

If we get trackers to freeze, what about the entire ik. No need to have those expensive constraints clone mesh

[devout current]

Thanks for the reply, hope to see it go live soon ^^

[honest apex]

This~ Would be neat to have a toggle menu for this along with a readable/writeable param.

[mystic basalt]

I think this channel isn't added right in the new discord channels and roles thing

I had ik beta selected but still couldn't see this channel till I searched for post and then clicked add channel at the prompt that popped up

[honest apex]

It only adds the IK beta role, yeah~

If you ever can't find a channel, you can right click id:customize and select "show all channels" or visit there, check the browse channels tab, and add whatever you might be missing.

[mystic basalt]

Discord has been making some weird decisions recently

[vital inlet]

hi, how do you do one handed callibration?

[oak pendant]

You can turn on the option "One Handed Calibration" in the Tracking & IK page of the main menu

[livid skiff]

Really liking the current ik beta and didnt run into issues so far. The spine behaves way better for me and it keeps my viewpoint a lot more accurrate. Still a little shifting wenn sitting like a caveman but not much.
People tell me the body shaking when wiggling my head around is a lot less too.
The motion prediction slider is great too. I turned it up quite a bit to reduce the delay but still getting decent local jitter reduction.
Such great work. Thank you so much Kung! Fbt is way more enjoyable for me now.
Hopefully there wont be too many buggy surprises anymore so it can go live soon ^-^

[oak pendant]

Awesome! I'm really glad you're enjoying the changes! Yeah fingers crossed that it can go live soon and that it goes smoothly when it does. Hopefully the long ik-beta has already helped find the kinds of issues that sometimes only pop up when things hit the masses. 🤞

[livid skiff]

Oh i still need to check if the sudden Neck and Chest angle change is still there when reaching a certain distance to the floor. Forgot about that.

[oak pendant]

If it's due to the default animations then it probably still would be. Redoing the default anim set has been out of scope for the ik-beta (was mostly targeting the spine behavior but slightly branched out with improved tracker behavior)

That issue is due to the crouch animation being active underneath your FBT pose. Which can be solved by either turning off the locomotion animations (it turns off the whole base layer animator) or by making your own base layer that doesn't do that

It might be sliightly improved actually, the changes of* making sure the default TPose bone orientations carry through to the FBT IK result could actually lead to an improvement there now that I think about it. But the fundamental issue of the default animation set not having a lot of FBT specific handling still remains

[livid skiff]

I dont know tbh, it was a thing i noticed since forever. Especially when laying fown and when i got closer to the floor my neck and chest where kinda snapping a little and making my back basically quite C shaped xD so i tended to pull myself up a bit and float a bit higher to avoid that. But yeah maybe the beta made that better too. I Need to pay attention when i get on later

[oak pendant]

It would change when the base animation changes from standing to crouched, and again from crouched to prone. And that base animation would be feeding in under the IK

So anything you do to either remove (locomotion disabled) or swap out (custom base layer) the default animation set would improve it

But the spine (including the neck) may be more stabilized now with the recent changes, so it might be worth a look to see if it behaves better for you in ik-beta

only lock head and lock both modes would have potential improvement though. Lock-hip has been left mostly unchanged

[livid skiff]

Oohh i see. Never really touched locomotion stuff because i'm lazy and always in fbt anyways xD
Very curious now if i'll notice improvement when i'm on. But Overall all the changes improved so many things that where bothering me in fbt for a long time. So i'm already very happy

[oak pendant]

If it does turn out to still be an issue, the most surefire way to suppress the behavior is to turn off* FBT locomotion animations in the quick menu. Though then you'll be sliding around everywhere when you locomote

[livid skiff]

I'm not a fan of the sliding but if i'm just chilling and only slightly change my position i guess i just turn off locomotion to avoid avatar back pain if it's still that present in the ik beta xD

[oak pendant]

Yeah that could work, the alternative would be to set up your own base animation set that handles it better. It's not totally simple though, because if you were low to the ground you'd probably want it to be blending to a crouch-like pose when you move

[mystic basalt]

is there going to be time between ik beta and live? or will ik beta be available up till it is pushed? i don't want to go back to normal ik lol

[raw wadi]

Beta stays up until it's live

[kindred acorn]

It should transition directly into a normal open beta

[rancid glen]

last night after the latest update i noticed that shifting (or stepping) from side to side causes some weird viewpoint "snapping" and a short freeze as if my avatar object got repositioned if i moved too far away, i need to do some further testing and make sure it wasn't just the world or other avatars that were simply randomly destroying my framerate

apart from that i'm very happy with the changes, its a massive improvement over live

[empty root]

ive not noticed this myself

what id like to see is some improvements to knee tracking tho, even with a tracker it feels a bit off

[devout current]

Oh? I thought it would just go live directly

[kindred acorn]

Probably not 🤷

[devout current]

[tardy dune]

I'd see it

Considering there are some bugs that can't be fixed without making it no longer network compatibility

So I'd see at least a week windows between ik beta -> beta -> live

[kindred acorn]

It would be network compatible. No definitive answer here to be clear, also it's Sunday, but going into a normal open-beta before live just better matches the way changes are shipped currently.

[empty root]

osc trackers are always visible

not sure if its something caused by real and osc being used at the same time tho

[oak pendant]

By design, if you use the "system" option for the tracker display, the OSC Trackers will remain visible

[empty root]

i dont think that makes sense

[oak pendant]

They should go away like others if you choose a tracker model other than "system" (if they don't then that's a bug tho)

[empty root]

i have it set to system but the other systejm devices arent visible, but the osc one is

id expect it to follow the same behaviour as other system trackers

[oak pendant]

There isn't any inherent behavior for OSC system trackers because we were creating a new thing, there are no render models for example supplied via SteamVR or anything like that, so we took the opportunity to use it to help OSC Tracker app devs visualize the tracker position by keeping it always on in OSC system mode

[empty root]

i think an option or mode to hide them would be nice

as i prefer seeing the actual devices positions when the menus open, but not in game

[oak pendant]

Does the existing tracker model option not solve your use case?

[empty root]

and some of my avis have an exposed waist (where thr osc tracker is), which makes it quite annoying locally

[empty root]

as in the system, balls, and anti-tank things?

[oak pendant]

Yeah

[empty root]

if so, id say not really

tho its a super niche usecase i have

[oak pendant]

If the setting is anything other than system the OSC trackers will be hidden. So I suppose it's that you'd need to see the SteamVR rendermodels and simultanously have OSC trackers hidden?

[empty root]

thats not quite what i mean

[oak pendant]

Ah I guess I'm not understanding how you're trying to use the tracker model displays then, what's your use case?

[empty root]

i want to see my trackers when the big menus open, and when hidden to not see them at all

the osc tracker persists even when the menus closed

[oak pendant]

If you select a model type other than system the OSC trackers will appear when the menu is open and be hidden otherwise

(or they should, so if they aren't then thant's a bug)

[empty root]

yes thats what i mean, but its always shown when system is selected which is odd behaviour inwasnt expecting

it doesnt really follow the logic of the other displays or even devices also being shown under system

[oak pendant]

I see, so the issue wasn't so much lack of use case support but just that it was unexpected?

[empty root]

yea

[oak pendant]

Ah ok, yeah good point on that. It could at least be documented in our osc trackers docs page. I don't think it is.

[empty root]

or ideally a suboption to make them follow typical behaviour?

dont bother if its too niche tho

[oak pendant]

Yeah, that was the reason for consolidating the behavior into the model select for the previously undefined "system" model for OSC trackers

Like, it'd be pretty useful for osc tracker app devs, but outside that pretty niche so not enough to take up an option slot. By consolidating into the undefined system model option it doesn't need to take up an option slot and the behavior is still configurable.

[empty root]

thats fair

[little surge]

⤴️

[tardy dune]

I wonder if it would be possible to allow osc tracking to have custom body parts

So I could use my phones camera to track objects such as a bottle, or prop and have it display on my avatar

[honest apex]

I like lock both but feel like it's too extreme on certain avatars still. How impossible would it be for the IK options to instead be a slider?
0.0 Lock Hips <-> 0.5 Lock Both <-> 1.0 Lock Head

Would be interesting to be able to go to a middle ground~ EG at .75 you'd have a 50/50 mix between lock both and head.

Edit: Made a canny for this.
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/1335-lock-mode-sliders

[modern lynx]

I use a system where players are permanent attached to stations (own station is set to mobile, other ones to immobilized). The position and rotation of stations are synced (PlayerApi.GetPosition, PlayerApi.GetRotation). I use this system to be able to walk around planets. This worked fine before ik-2.

In this scene, my feet points to a mirror and I turn my head to the tiger. When I turn my head from tigers perspective, my feet slaps to its body and my head points in another direction. I seems like the rotation will be applied twice (root + head).

It is the same behavior, when I turn with my controller. When I move slighly forward or backward, I will suddenly rotate back in the right position.

As I understand from previous posts, this is the new expected behavior. How can I sync stations with ik-2, so that there are no rotation offsets/jumps?

My world is not public yet. But there is a world, which uses the same principle and where the behavior can be reproduced: https://vrchat.com/home/launch?worldId=wrld_bff9dcbd-d43a-4815-8dea-ef0d9455feba

[empty root]

shin tracking shin tracking shin tracking shin tracking

let me wear twice the amount of trackers‼️

[icy crescent]

I'm using my index controllers and my fingers aren't moving in game, only the thumb moves
the grip sensor does work properly when I use the test controller thing in SteamVR

[icy crescent]

turns out it switched to legacy bindings
so by switching it back everything worked again

[robust tangle]

Anyone else getting this on only the beta? https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/changing-avatars-knocks-you-out-of-seated-mode

[modern lynx]

I remarked this issue yesterday in the "Cyanlaser - The Sphere" world with the ik-2 beta. I can test later with the released client to compare.

[modern lynx]

The issue in the mentioned world related to stations - not to 3pt tracking "seated/standing" mode. So, please forget this part.
But I have tested your described behavior in 3pt tracking in live and in ik-2 beta and I can confirm that in ik-2 beta it switches back to "standing", but the button stays on "seated".
Additionally I remarked another issue, that when FBT will be disabled and re-enabled again, the button is stll labeled with "seated/standing" instead of "calibrate".

Created a new canny for the detected issue:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/1333-wrong-label-of-calibration-button-after-re-enabling-fbt

[frozen smelt]

@oak pendant is this true?

Good luck, given VRC's IK itself is built off of FinalIK which is the reason *why* it's a whitelisted component.

[oak pendant]

I'm not sure of the context for "good luck" but currently FinalIK is still in the mix acting as boilerplate for handling reading and writing bone arrays from the avatar. IK2 sits on top and does the solving on those bones and passes it back to FinalIK which applies it to the avatar.

[frozen smelt]

Is it true that FinalIK components might be unable to be used in avatars?

Forgot to give context my bad

[oak pendant]

Ah, it's hard to be concrete about "might" and the indefinite future, but it's not out of the question I suppose. There's no current plan to disallow it though. If we did need to go that route I think it'd be nicer if we could have the component incur a very strict performance rank cost or something rather than totally disallow, but this is all hypothetical.

[modern lynx]

Created a canny to keep this issue documentated:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/1333-unexpected-behavior-of-playerapigetrotation

[oak pendant]

Sorry for slow response on that one, it required some special handling. I've responded in the Canny now

[timber willow]

Speaking of canny, it looks like you've implemented this in the latest betas: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/featureaccessibility-add-support-for-one-handed-calibration

[oak pendant]

Oop thanks, hadn't updated the status there yet

[timber willow]

I'm glad it got worked on 🙂

[empty solar]

I honestly feel this is IK 2.5

[dusk anvil]

hi kung

great work on the beta

im enjoying it

[lean zodiac]

more like IK 3 since theres so many fixes

[robust tangle]

Again this one is not related to stations, Just the sitting mode that adjusts floor height. Bug only appears for me on IK2 beta, but I’d like to know if someone else is getting the behavior because it’s weird that nobody else is mentioning it: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/changing-avatars-knocks-you-out-of-seated-mode

[round vale]

When will the IK beta be updated to match the new live changes?

[devout current]

As soon as Kung has time I would suggest :p

[final raven]

Dang, didn't even wait ten minutes to post that. :v

[strong nova]

Interpolating Kaleidoscopes 2.0

Kung, if you're reading this, hi.

[tardy dune]

Anyone else constantly being spammed "Your being rate limited. 30 seconds remaining" and it won't go away

[chrome ore]

Yes yes

It still updates the chat box tho, even with that message up

[tardy dune]

Yea, and you can still change avatar and everything too

I don't even know why I'm getting rate limited. 🤔

I'm using osc, but it's not spamming values

So no reason to be rate limited

[chrome ore]

Yeah, it's weird. But didn't they change some osc stuff lately? Maybe some access points or whatever you call em got changed and now it's spamming it, just without being obvious?

[deft spruce]

Yeah, that has to do with any usage of the API. They intentionally put in rate limits for using the Chatbox via OSC since it was implemented.

[tardy dune]

But like this is a bug tho?

[deft spruce]

Not really. But if you are using VRCX in the background, it can contribute to your total number of API calls at a time.

[tardy dune]

No, I'm using VRCOSC

And also, this msg doesn't even go away

So I have no idea why I'm spamming the api-

Even with VRCOSC off

Despite this msg, I can still use vrcosc, chats, change avatars, get invites, you name it

[deft spruce]

Could be a bug then, but test with the live branch and see if the same thing happens. Then report a bug to the Canny.

The updated Creator Guidelines outline what the API usage rules are and what can be the reason to get rate limited.

[crimson mountain]

A canny has already been made to track this: https://feedback.vrchat.com/bug-reports/p/timed-out-for-spam-30-secs-remaining-false-positive

It's affecting the ChatBox as well, it may be a separate issue but it seems linked

[tardy dune]

VRChat really broken right now lol

[empty solar]

Am i the only one noticing the snapping behavior when people turn in VRChat

[elfin relic]

The FBT jitter fix has a temporary bug for people on the live build, if you mean that.

[empty solar]

Like when people turn it's like as though they have snap turning on even though they dont

[sharp ore]

Suggestion: I and a couple of others that I know prefer the headbobbing animation when having locomotion animation enabled, but we don't have that unless we put either WetCat's Locomotion Fix or GoLoco on our avatars while using the 2.0 IK rather than the legacy. I personally don't like having to go back into my Unity projects just to put a locofix on all of my avatars, and if there was a way to have an option to toggle the headbobbing animation while running in the 2.0 IK, that'd be absolutely amazing.

[elfin relic]

Well I think the implementation for the jitter fix made it so it only updates the root rotation when the joystick is touched, compared to updating with your head.

But if you are using the IK-2 beta then it shouldn't be that causing issues.

[sharp ore]

One reason I want this to be a thing is because there are also a couple of 2.0 avatars from a public world I love using but those avatars will not be getting updated, so I'd have no way to get the headbobbing back other than to switch to the legacy IK (which I don't really like doing because it's deprecated by VRChat anyway)

[robust tangle]

Headbobbing was a thing? I’ve never seen that on any avatar in vr, fullbody or not

The head is always gyroscopically stable for me

[rancid glen]

You only get headbobbing if you have locomotion enabled and hip tracking disabled turing running

turning the hiptracking off while running will give you a better version of the old IK1 running animation

which also allows your head and hips to move around

just like on desktop, except you can still move your hands and rotate your head

its sad that most people in FBT seem to turn off locomotion tho, i hate the slidey slide everyone does

[robust tangle]

In fullbody when running I’m always hunched forward awkwardly is this what you are referring to

[rancid glen]

yes

while running in full body in IK2 by default you get the 3pt running animation, aka your hip and head are super stiff and locked into position and just kinda "slide" around. That is unless the latest few IK changes did change that, you had to turn hip tracking off in your Avatar Tracking Component while running to get back the "hunched over" IK1 like FBT running animation

i vastly prefer the hunched over running (although you only hunch over as much as your underlying animation makes you)

if you want less hunch you should finetune the locomotion layer and running animations, specifically you want to make sure the sprinting animation is never used, it bows you down very far resulting in an extremely hunched over running animation, the running animation itself should be much better and sufficient

you could also replace the forward running animation with a custom one that doesn't bend your chest/spine/head forward although last time i tried that it broke the locomotion layer because it didn't like mixing proxy and full animations

[dusk anvil]

but i can make it look like i'm driving an invisible car

[rancid glen]

it could, if people used it for that, they dont however

they just stand there, slide around awkwardly while looking everywhere around them

breaks immersion

i'll have to check if the current IK beta does have the old running animation without turning hip tracking off

or if lock modes make a difference

[naive karma]

wonder where redirected walking users are on the scale of immersion

[rancid glen]

redirected walking?

you mean the walking in your room, playspace turning and continuing to walk in a circle thing?

[naive karma]

ye, though that's just one method of doing it

[empty root]

its a dumb gimmick

i only use it when index controllers are being index controllers and cant do fine adjustments

(valve cant make reliable hardware)

[naive karma]

Something related to VR is a dumb gimmick? wow what a suprise I am shocked

[robust tangle]

Huh. Opposite here honestly, the hunched over run looks terrible to me. Nobody runs like that

Seeing it from third person when others do it just looks like a glitch/bug

[marsh elm]

eh, its not really immersive

because you have to be extremely aware of the real world

otherwise you bonk into the wall lol

its fun though

[naive karma]

I'd say that depends on the size of your playspace

[marsh elm]

unless you play on a plane hangar, not really

you gotta turn around somewhere

guy in the other server got too immersed into it, and managed to bonk the walls with a 9x4m space lol

[hot fulcrum]

ahh, IK beta update

[oak pendant]

Just a little one 🤏

[deft spruce]

Little, but mighty!

[honest apex]

quick early morning update

[crisp socket]

major update :pog:

[oak pendant]

Oh yeah, but you're always keeping the Japanese community up to date with the ik-beta patch notes. I'm always really thankful for your efforts on that! 🙏

[hot fulcrum]

I just posted.

My pleasure

[latent knot]

goood..

[honest apex]

In case it got missed the other day, any note on the feasibility of something like this?

[oak pendant]

That's something I had considered, but it wouldn't really match well with the more bespoke solving for each of the two modes right now. Not out of the question for a future release down the line some day, but probably not during this current ik-beta.

[honest apex]

Understandable. Also some UI work load too.

[sullen bloom]

Will second this. It's definitely fun and gets reactions out of people which is usually a good time.

[primal valve]

Have you tried Mocopi on the Android build yet Kung?

[sullen bloom]

Random question, how much does the head in 'lock head' influence other parts of the avatar. I was lying down yesterday and was bobbing my head back and forth and noticed one of my knees was rotating quite a bit. I did notice my hips were moving slightly, as they should in that mode, so I'm just assuming I was just in some position where the ik solving was just causing the knee to move more than usual

[oak pendant]

We don't currently support combining OSC Trackers with flat screen mode unfortunately

[primal valve]

Dang

[oak pendant]

The head will influence the position of the hip, but not rotation. So the lower body (pelvis and below) shouldn't be rotated by the head, but if the legs were just on the edge of knee bending or being straight depending on a slight change in hip position, movements at the head could cause movements at the hip which cause the knee bend to ride both sides of that threshold and bend

[viscid goblet]

Wanted to ask. Would it be possible to take into account an avatars leg angles (when not flat straight, like most anthromorphic avatars) and make it so angle 0 for IK legs is the starting avatar leg angles, while IK angle 90 for the calves are also angle 90 for the avatars calves, kind of averaging it out so that it looks more natural and prevent calves from going into the thighs. I thought muscle settings could prevent this, but it's ignored with full body.

[rustic berry]

muscle settings aren't ignored for FBT

[viscid goblet]

Odd. I tested it and muscled settings didn't work for me. Only worked while in half body or desktop.

[rustic berry]

it's possible some settings are ignored or overritten if they're asking for something impossible

[oak pendant]

I see, in this situation the feet would have to freely drift from the calibrated tracker position though. It may look odd when your IRL feet are solidly grounded on your IRL floor

You could actually play around with approximating this using constraints to rotation copy from proportional humanoid legs to extra bones with the mesh on them

[viscid goblet]

You mean because as the calve is bending, visually the feet aren't moving at the same angle amount, could start averaging out near the end of the 90 degrees so users can't tell a difference.

Sorry, just been thinking about IK solutions for anthro avatars without using constraints that could be interesting.

[oak pendant]

Because for the tracked hip and tracked foot positions to both match, given the length of the leg bones, there's a particular trigonometric solution to keep both positionally aligned. You basically fit a triangle with two set side lengths (the bone lengths) and one more side length (the distance between the calibrated trackers) and then plug in the three side lengths to get angles. What is sounds like you're suggesting is taking the nice looking angles that result from human proportioned bone lengths and applying those angles to different bone lengths. If you apply the same angles (or even blend to those angles) to a triangle with different side lengths, then the positions of the corners need to slide around, which is why the foot would have to drift freely

[sharp wing]

just wondering is it intended that when you freeze tracker (like obscuring it) and playspace moving it keeps the tracker position in the world.
sorry im bad at explaing it.

[oak pendant]

Sort of, maybe 'unavoidable' is better than 'intended'. The design is that it'll freeze relative to your playspace. If you use OVRAS space drag for example, you're moving your entire playspace, and anything relative to it will be dragged along.

[sharp wing]

ahh fair enough. its a lil annoying but not like mega bad issue.
i feel like there is a way you could change it to not do that but would posibly be more work then is worthwile

[oak pendant]

There may be possible workarounds, but VRC doesn't know if you have moved within the playspace or you've dragged your playspace. So it'd be similar to how it was before (making it relative to the head or something like that) which people didn't prefer

For now it's probably best to move around via joystick if you have frozen trackers

[marsh elm]

"wtf dude how do you have so much space" 😆

[sullen bloom]

That and "dudes living in a warehouse, look at hom go"

[devout current]

Time to implement an OSC endpoint for that xD

[oak pendant]

Just cleaning up some canny statuses that I should have updated sooner

[dusty dew]

Kung, do you intend to keep improving the network jitter or did you stop there?

[tranquil cipher]

in what case are you still seeing it? It should be completely gone, unless you're just talking about something else entirely

[dusty dew]

So, for me there is still this jitter, it has not completely disappeared

[tranquil cipher]

can you explain or show a video?

also are you seeing this on other people? If they're not on the IK beta then you'll still see jitter. The fix only applies to seeing people who are on the IK beta

[dusty dew]

Oh then i think this is the case

[rancid glen]

i need to record a video to show how it looks, it looks fine from first person, also in camera and mirror

given others should see the same it should look fine

[robust tangle]

I've seen it on stream cameras as they run around and it looks pretty unrealistic! Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. either way it's not beta behavoir

[sonic briar]

So, ever since I've opted into the new Ik-beta, I've noticed that a lot of avatars I work on just look incredibly stiff.
When I bend forward/back, most of the rotation ends up happening at the spine bone with the rest of the bones above that (chest, chest2 and neck) being effectively stiff. This ends up making the upper body look incredibly stiff.
After testing and changing up the spine on my main creature, trying to alleviate things, I tried out a handful of different avatars to check if things like a second chest bone or an inverted hip made any difference.
The only way I got any sort of significant forward/back rotation out of chest1 was when I used one of my foot trackers as an impromptu chest tracker.

Idk if this is a question or a report, but is there anything I could do to get the spine to just...bend more? xD I know that the point of the update is getting less of a bent-spine by dynamically changing the distance of the bones as needed. But now I feel like a lot of avatars have the opposite problem, as they end up "squishing" too much, rather than bending. Especially when they could be making use of chestBone(s).

Attached are two vids kinda showing off the awkward folding. (Im using head-locked tracking on both clips)
First one is just my normal fbt setup, second one Im using a foot tracker as an impromptu chest tracker.

[rancid glen]

Might be because you are in head lock mode, try lock-both if that makes it better, maybe your hip and head just don't match well with your rl body

[oak pendant]

It looks to me like you're expecting a lot of forward rotation of the chest bone which is already back-rotated quite a bit in your default pose. One of the new changes is that the TPose of the avatar will have an effect on the result of the IK. It's hard to know exactly what your TPose looks like without seeing you during calibration, but based on the standing straight angle of the chest bone in your video, it appears to be pretty back-rotated vs the spine. So as you bend forward it does rotate a decent amount, but it's taking into account the default pose as well, so as it rotates forward it* ends up roughly straight

Here's a picture to illustrate:

The orange arrow drawn on the second picture on the right is about what the chest bone would have been relative to the spine bone's rotation if it hadn't rotated against it at all. But it has rotated down to the current blue arrow.

One solution would be to not have a baked* in backwards tilt at the chest bone if you'd like it to be able to bend forward more (you could either do this by editing the model in blender, or uploading it with a custom TPose with the chest bone not rotated so much against the spine). Another solution as you've found is to use a chest tracker to feed data in more directly

A difference with the old IK is that it would have pre-straightend your spine, basically throwing out the TPose angles of the spine bones. But users didn't like this because if the spine was posed like yours is in the TPose it has the effect of kind of caving in the chest when it brings the bone from puffed forward into a straighter alignment. To get a better idea of what's going on and why it acts the way it does currently, here's the Canny with feedback that lead to the current behavior of respecting the TPose bone orientations: https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/chest-bone-gets-moved-back-when-its-not-directly-above-spine-tilted-a-bit

[sonic briar]

I straightened it out a lot and it seems to have worked a little. Still think itd been nicer if the spine "did less work" but its good enough for now <3 thx

[dusky robin]

Is that from a discord server?

[mystic urchin]

yes, the bot keeps track of indexed canny posts

[frozen smelt]

So basically it will override the TPose Chest bone placement to be parallel to the spine?

I usually work with Blender models made for the Blender’s many IK system addons.

Some of em are titled forward/backward.

Never sideways

[oak pendant]

It does on live, on ik-beta the TPose bone orientations will have influence on the IK result.

[uncut kettle]

Hey just a question but does anybody know why whenever i'm calibrating my leg trackers the little spheres are just below the knee instead of being around the foot, any way to fix this? (It also causes unrealistic tracking such as tapping your feet.

[agile arrow]

Set your floor height in steamvr

When you set your controllers on the ground they should match the in game floor

[uncut kettle]

They do before I callibrate on vrchat

I've got a base station that isn't mounted so it's about waist level on my drawer

[olive badger]

does smoothing wotk with osc tracking?

[acoustic snow]

sounds like your avatar is pretty wildly disproportionate. is it an anime style avatar? if it is, you can compromise on the disproportion by adjusting your wingspan ratio (i forgor exactly what it's called)

[raw wadi]

emoji dont seen to appear

should be instant like in live

[honest apex]

Which animation/animator should we update?
In the example IKPose animator, the state is named Tpose
In the example TPose animator, it's IKPose
confused

Whoever made the example animators just out here for chaos

[oak pendant]

Oh huh, I'll need to look into that. It's whatever is slotted in to the TPose layer in the avatar descriptor

[honest apex]

alright

[oak pendant]

So if you're doing it custom the example ones shouldn't matter, but yeah there may be something off with the examples in the SDK

I've somewhat recently checked that the actual state of an avatar with the default animations is correct for when the IKPose and TPose are being activated, so it might just be a naming thing in the SDK examples, I'll have to look into it more to confirm

[honest apex]

Ive got a baked in backwards tilt and my spine crunches a lot
Could I get away literally moving it like the 2nd image or would that cause issues?

[rustic berry]

enable Connected on the Spine and Chest and move them to be as straight as possible

[honest apex]

The weighting really doesnt like that unfortunately

gotta find a tradeoff somewhere

[rustic berry]

could probably tweak weights a little bit

either that or use Pose mode to move the spine bone back

so that the mesh goes with it

[honest apex]

Straight aiming hip to neck or 0'd on the y axis from hip to neck?

[oak pendant]

I don't think it would do anything because the direction from the chest to the neck isn't actually changed by doing that

[honest apex]

noted, heck

[oak pendant]

This kinda illustrates the fundamental issue:

if you start with a bended back spine, and you bend forward IRL it takes a longer path (the bend) and scrunches it as it kinda unbends it into a shorter path "(straight-ish). If it started out without as much back-bend kinda baked in from the start, then as you bend forward it can take a longer path and thus less scrunching occurs

If the spine bone itself is longer, then it'll distribute the scrunch over a greater length (this would require tuning up the weight painting as well)

If you wanna get extra theoretical about it you'd adjust the forward/backward position of the bones causing the baked in curve so that the amount of scrunching roughly approximates the length change in an IRL spine when the curve of multiple vertebrae are lumped together into a single avatar bone:

(though it's kinda fruitless to chase that until after you've really locked in the viewball position of your avatar, because then you'd be inducing extra length change in the distance between the head tracking and hip tracking if that was off)

But it's something you can adjust by changing your rigging. Too much scrunch when leaning forward? -> adjust the TPose curve of the spine to bringing the bend forward rather than back. Too much stretch when leaning forward? -> do the opposite, adjusting the TPose curve of the spine to bend back rather than forward.

For the lurkers... this is a bit of a deep dive to answer ZenithVal's question, but it's good to keep in mind if this all seems complicated that it's not necessary to do any of these adjustments. Lock-both is designed to work such that the dynamic spine length is where any mismatch collects. It's fine to just let it collect there, or just use lock head instead. This is just going in depth on how changes in the rig may manifest in changes in resulting behavior.

[honest apex]

🙏 Bookmarking this for sure.
Going to attempt to straighten the overall spine as much as possible before messing with the Tpose.

[oak pendant]

Straigtening in blender pose mode, or straightening in the TPose animation should actually have a similar result. The default humanoid rig config applies a TPose based on the model's rest pose as exported from blender. So it might be quicker to experiment with changes in an animation rather than changes requireing re-export of the model

If you need to actually move the bone transforms relative to the mesh though (so like edit mode on armature, not pose mode) then that's a blender-only thing

[honest apex]

https://gyazo.com/9786392484edb7e1724b5bbf7353e909
So the changed tpose might look something like this?

[raw wadi]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/make-the-controller-freeze-like-the-tracker-when-the-connection-is-lost

[oak pendant]

Yeah, like that. And the purpose of doing it as a TPose animation being that you can play around with iterating changing the curve by different amounts. So maybe in the end it doesn't end up that way but that's the kind of curve that would reduce scrunch when leaning forward.

If the cause of the scrunch was the baked in spine curve at least. If it's due to a viewball offset then it might not help as much

[narrow yew]

speaking of tpose animation, there was discussion in one avatar creator's discord couple of months ago that you should place your viewpoint to be in correct position when you are in your tpose animation. tpose can move your head a lot compared to your model just chilling in unity. doing that apparently fixes legs bending when you look down with pandabase

[honest apex]

Any tricks/techniques for optimal viewball placement?
Never seen any proper docs on it, just hearsay.
I've always just gone with trial and error until it feels comfortable and my arms rest straight on my sides.

I understand the logic of an anime head issue. The bigger the head, the more the viewball travels with angle changes. Compared to a human anyway.

[empty solar]

so since we have jitter fixes for IK could those fixes be applied to Avatar Dynamic components?

[honest apex]

It's not the same problem/solution.

[rancid glen]

Honestly when thinking about it, i can't really explain why physbones jitter so much when locomoting, i think it might be due to how locomotion works, moving around may actually not be smooth... or its simply too fast too handle for the way physbones update. Dynamic Bones had the same issue really. You can kinda help it by making your physbones "world immobile" to the point that they can just barely move around in the angle limit you have given them (if any), not allowing physbones to "smack" against the angle limits constantly seems to help the jittering a lot

[empty solar]

if you wanna test this out a bit better, go in desktop mode and lower the game's frame rate to 59. For Physbones, they will not jerk as much when compared to Contacts, which even below 60 still have jittering issues.

[rancid glen]

I haven't noticed any jittering on contacts (unless i did bork it up)

But i noticed physbones becoming increasingly more jittery and unstable as your framerate drops

which is KINDA expected

although could be completely circumvented by running them completely separate from the main rendering, which technically they should, they are multithreaded and run separate so regardless of your framerate, whenever a new frame update happens it should take the latest available data and use that, given that they are in separate threads they should also be able to update much faster than your framerate thus never getting into a situation where two frames use the same data (which wouldn't matter anyway and shouldn't cause jitter)

also on Desktop with 60 FPS i get 0 jitter

they are perfectly stable, on VR they aren't.

[empty solar]

the thing is they're not supposed to be framerate dependent, but I couldn't help but notice that when put on a higher FPS the stutter happens. The reason why VR could be like that is it's framerate is capped to whatever the headset can output and it varies on what is in each world.

[rancid glen]

but i can see them starting to occasionally jitter a tiny bit on 59 FPS... physbones are updated with 60hz i think

oof

it happens with weird framerates

60 is perfectly smooth, 30 is perfectly smooth, 36 (half of my quest 1) is jittery as it is in VR

this REALLY should not be the case at all

physbones should update at your framerate, not a fixed value

[empty solar]

that's the incorrect approach

[rancid glen]

well to be fair they shouldn't even jitter to begin with regardless of update rate and framerate

[empty solar]

when regards to anything related to physics they should not be dependent on your frame rate

[rancid glen]

well yes, obviously but they also shouldn't even be jittering regardless of update rate, they should just take whatever last values it had

[empty solar]

if physics were frame dependent your CPU would struggle to handle that and the network wouldn't like that at all either

[rancid glen]

it makes even less sense that having any framerate lower than 60 (the physbone update rate) causing stuttering

weren't physbones moved to GPU?

[empty solar]

no

if they were that's news to me

[rancid glen]

idk

PhysBones
Please stop using Dynamic Bones. They are CPU-bound so slow down the performance for everyone. PhysBones use your GPU which is better.

The VRChat SDK can automatically convert your bones to PhysBone. Please use it and tweak the new bones as necessary.

i also kinda remember them mentioning that in their dev videos i think

aside from being multithreaded

each script is its own thread

so technically speaking you want to "space them out"

[empty solar]

the DB script they whilelisted in the past was very single core dependent

this is the first time I'm hearing about Physbones using the GPU, which I though where using Unity Jobs

[tranquil cipher]

dynamic bones are also converted to physbones in-game, unless you disable that option. So I wouldn't harp on people too hard for still using dynamic bones, only problem is that the conversion won't be perfect and they won't be able to make use of physbone features, which is entirely up to them

and yeah, they don't use GPU. They're highly optimized for multi-threading and fast execution using burst on the CPU

[empty solar]

I figured

[rancid glen]

interesting

[empty solar]

the next thing to give multithreading to would be constraint components

[tranquil cipher]

unity constraints are multi-threaded for the actual execution, it's just that the dependency sorting and scheduling has to happen on the main thread and that's the expensive part

so a fully multi-threaded constraint system would need to be designed in a very clever way to make the sorting happen off the main thread

a lot of multi-threading is just designing stuff from the beginning in a clever way and accepting the limitations that may cause. It's not just taking the work and moving it around

[rancid glen]

Well i'm not using any constraints in general

[short knot]

https://vrchat.canny.io/vrchat-ik-20/p/spine-yaw-doesnt-follow-head-anymore-with-only-feet-trackers

[rancid glen]

all i've ever multithreaded so far was simply an experiment to move some heavy work filling my preferences window with data in an off-thread to keep it from stalling the client when opening

though that's a one-time fill occasionally which can happen in the background, i'm not talking about doing this every frame, at that point it becomes a little more complicated

[empty solar]

I feel that is possible to do, and if it could be done it would benefit a lot of Quest users who aren't able to use constraints and have lost the VRC_IKFollower script. Plus if it could lighten the load for those on low-end PCs that can also make the game a bit more accessible. Plus knowing how y'all are you'd add some extra goodies for us creators to play with c:

it's kinda why I made the canny post over a week ago to have something like the animation rigging constraints be available in the SDK

[rancid glen]

I find the limit of 0 constraints on quest to be too much anyway

i see so many people crying all the time that constraints are bad and the worst thing ever, when the extreme crashtests have shown that it requires hundreds, or even thousands to make real differences

having 1-2 constraints allowed on quest shouldn't be a problem really

a single constraint could improve a lot of things already, i don't have to have 5 copies of an item all over my avatar

not to mention you could squeeze it into a good rating still

i obviously wouldn't use it for IK related things... or even IK copies (like multiarms) but attachments that would be good

[empty solar]

phasedragon already said the main reason why constraints aren't on quest, which is the scheduling issue. Mobile hardware is different from the desktop/laptop stuff, plus when some people use constraints, they typically would use it for twist bones

[rancid glen]

well with a single allowed constraint you cant

you get exactly 1 constraint, that's it, hard limit, boom done

[empty solar]

i prefer to have more and new options for constraints

[empty solar]

especially to be able to use parameters in twist components for blendshapes via parameters

[oak pendant]

We'll close down the ik-beta branch on Steam shortly. The Open Beta is live compatible and includes all the ik-beta changes as well as other general fixes that are part of the next release. So all the ik updates will still be available if you switch to Open Beta

https://tenor.com/view/boat-gif-8825532

[timber grove]

goodbye IK enthusiasts

[oak pendant]

Huge thanks to everyone who participated providing feedback and testing during the ik-beta!!

[timber grove]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134159699755933787/makesweet-rprfei.gif

[devout current]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134160577695064115/makesweet-srmafp.gif

[robust tangle]

So long and thanks for all the fix

[mild nimbus]

until next time!

[devout current]

[oak pendant]

Thanks everyone! It's very rewarding working for such an awesome community!

https://tenor.com/view/keanu-reeves-pointing-gif-14709641

[rustic berry]

https://tenor.com/view/breathtaking-youre-breathtaking-keanu-reeves-cyberpunk2077-e3-gif-14310969

[oak pendant]

Looking forward to all the improvements going to release and seeing the improved IK on everyone! Not to mention youtube videos and streamer content too. Floppy necks and network jitter begone!

(or at least be improved)

[devout current]

Were there any changes between the last IK beta and the new open beta?

[rustic berry]

one question, not sure if this has been answered before. I noticed that when disabling FBT, if I have Freeze trackers on disconnect, my avatar stays mangled. is this intended behavior?

[deft spruce]

Actually, thank you for making IK 2.0 even better for all of us. You rock!!

[rustic berry]

I'm asking because last night while watching a movie, my hip tracker died because I forgot to charge it. I got up, plugged in my hip tracker, came back, and disabled FBT. I noticed I was still mangled, and needed to also disable the freeze trackers option to fully go back to half body IK

[oak pendant]

The AvatarRoot tracking data may be available now, not sure if we sent out the SDK yet

[rugged trench]

Praise our Hero Kung!

[oak pendant]

The QM option to disable FBT should be setting you back to half body I think (so this could be a bug?). Though without disabling FBT if you turn off all your trackers, but keep freeze on disconnect option active, then you'll remain stuck to the ghost trackers

[rustic berry]

to be more specific, my feet and arms trackers were still on, but my hip tracker was off. I wanted to fully disable FBT because no hip would make the movement weird. simply turning off FBT didn't make me go back to 3pt

[empty root]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134160577695064115/makesweet-srmafp.gif

[rugged trench]

to be fair, I don't know if there are others then Kung working on the IK stuff, if so: Praise them as well!

[honest apex]

🙏 Thank you for all your work Kung
2023 FBT mega tutorial up the pipeline somewhere maybe? Would love to have the knowledge you shared in this channel be easily accessible.

[rugged trench]

Thank you for being so interactive with the community, and actively involving us (:

[empty root]

next up: skeletal input :3

[rugged trench]

I think most of his 2020 FBT tutorial is still relevant to this day

[honest apex]

Oh for sure.

[oak pendant]

Our UI team did a lot to streamline the IK stuff in the QM and move some settings over to the MM, though I think that's out on live too

[empty root]

oh kung!!!

[oak pendant]

Thanks for getting involved!

[empty root]

the osc trackers not showing until 2nd calibration after boot bug is still around D:

[rugged trench]

well yeah... but that is "just" UI stuff >.< not that complicated, compared to the whole IK and all the edgecases of it.
soooo... praise them just a little? >.<

they already got their big praise with the 2.0 Menu update >.<

[oak pendant]

Hmm, the issue I was addressing there was that the first time calibration didn't bind as expected (though did work). So OSC trackers just aren't appearing at all during your first calibration?

[empty root]

nossir

the calibration points try and go for the actual trackers, so i have to calibrate twice when i launch vrc for the osc ones to then show

[oak pendant]

So in a hybrid setup you mean?

[empty root]

yea

[oak pendant]

The OSC trackers are completely ignored on first calibration? (do the tracker models themselves appear?)

[empty root]

osc ones are completely ignored on first calibration, i dont think the models show? i cant tell tho cuz theyre inside me

[oak pendant]

Oh I should add that the core of the network jitter fix was a network engineer! I just unblocked the final part of it messing with GetRotation

The head rotation thing I mean

[deft spruce]

I dunno if it’s too late but it would be interesting if there was the option to save what Lock Hips/Head/Both option is used depending on the Avatar used. Save data stored locally of course.

[oak pendant]

Hmm... At least during my last time testing this, I'm pretty sure it was working on my end. I specifically tested first time calibration because there was an issue with it binding to the wrong spot (the OSC trackers would get "first pick" rather than checking both systems)

So I'll have to test again then

[empty root]

this is using hais double waist/chest btw. i doubt its specific to that program but its still occuring

i did create a canny previously tho https://feedback.vrchat.com/vrchat-ik-20/p/osc-trackers-dont-show-in-mixed-device-configs

[oak pendant]

Too late to add now for this round/release, Open Beta is "feature locked" so now it's just up to fixing what's there. But also we often see issues with settings not set as the user expected (often people drag the menu and set the wrist or knee angle sliders and then don't know what happened), so this could add a pretty large support burden if settings change per avatar... but it also makes sense because modes can be better per avatar, but yeah that would be the hypothetical argument against

[deft spruce]

That’s very fair.

[oak pendant]

Ah I may have misinterpreted then. My local reproduction was that you could have a tracker not participate in calibration because OSC was taking first pick... but that would mean the OSC would grab the hip when you wanted it for the chest etc

[deft spruce]

Maybe let’s take this time then to update the Rigging Requirements on the Creators Documentation on what is recommended for full IK 2.0 support. I think it’s overdue for a revision.

[oak pendant]

I'll have to do more testing to see if I can reproduce

[empty root]

ah its the opposite for me. for me actual trackers take president compared to osc

[oak pendant]

Yeah, it should be revised, but it's mostly now that there are fewer requirements

[deft spruce]

Lmao

[honest apex]

poof

[empty root]

nothign ever happened

[oak pendant]

Ah yeah, before I forget. Disabling IK-beta in 10... 9...

[empty root]

waiting to be last

[deft spruce]

Last

[chilly oyster]

Bye!

[deft spruce]

No I’m last

[empty root]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134160577695064115/makesweet-srmafp.gif

[oak pendant]

ah nono!

not the channel

haha you can still talk about stuff

the steam branch

[honest apex]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946881839400882196/1134159699755933787/makesweet-rprfei.gif

[oak pendant]

ik-2 channel stayed around after old ik-beta as well

[empty root]

so long great friend 🫡

were having soft tacos now :3c

[deft spruce]

Lmao your countdown was accurate. Well played.

[empty root]

huh..?

[oak pendant]

Steam takes awhile to propagate sometimes

oop meant as reply for just above

[deft spruce]

I saw the Branch Deleted from the SteamDB.

[honest apex]

Any notes on viewpoints for the masses?

[oak pendant]

Oh yeah, use the TPose animation as a reference for where it'll end up

[narrow yew]

there's an option in gesturemanager to put your model in to tpose and you can then set the viewpoint to the correct location. copy the values because when you exit play mode it will reset

[honest apex]

o7

[narrow yew]

options / states / t pose in gesturemanager

[latent knot]

@oak pendant I like the "Lock Both". But the feet are slightly raised off the ground. I made a good skeleton of my avatar, and adjusted the depth of the camera. If I use a "Lock Hip", then this does not happen. Maybe add +/- 5% to the leg bones? I would also add +/- 5% for the neck bone.

[oak pendant]

If your spine bone is very short, the amount it'll be allowed to stretch will be less, you could get more stretch range by having a longer spine bone which might help

once it's at max stretch it'll be allowed to pull the hip

[latent knot]

I have sufficient spine bone length. Ideal weight painting.

[honest apex]

Hip bone behind legs. Usually an issue right?

[oak pendant]

It shouldn't be any more

[oak pendant]

I mean, sufficient is relative, the longer it is the more range of stretch you'll have

[honest apex]

Oh
Well that makes straightening my spine easier. Wew

[oak pendant]

Another thing to check is that you're looking at least straight out or even a bit up if you're unsure, when you calibrate (if not using legacy calibration)

[latent knot]

No problem. I've been making avatars for a long time. Now I'm changing the skeleton so that it works well with the new IK.

[oak pendant]

if you look down you'll stretch the spine

[latent knot]

It was like this 3 days ago. Better now.

Feet lift as I swing my hips.

[oak pendant]

If it were me I'd try putting the spine bone around here:

Just considering the pelvis hip bone protrusions (I think called iliac crest)

[oak pendant]

Try looking up when you calibrate (not legacty calibration) that'll bake in some compression to the spine bone, meaning it has even more room to stretch under motion

[honest apex]

Oh my god I've always felt insane for thinking my viewpoint was askew to the side.
when in the t-pose animation, 0 on the X axis is not in the center of the head anymore.
Right cube is the center relative to the head. Left is world space 0'd X

[latent knot]

It will ruin weight painting. Not only the skeleton is important, but also how the avatar's body flexes.

[oak pendant]

Ah yeah, I haven't done anything to change the base animations at this stage including the default TPose. I remember mentioning an issue with that before I was hired even

[honest apex]

Sanity restored.

[oak pendant]

Yeah, shifting it by that amount would require touching up the weight painting. Maybe try looking up a bit when calibrating to see if baking in some compression improves stuff for you

[latent knot]

I have tried various options.

[honest apex]

Safe to bump the view position on the X axis to compensate for the t-pose shift?

[hot fulcrum]

Seems to be something coming up with open beta than IK beta?
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/fullbody-calibration-broken-stacks-avatars

[oak pendant]

Hmm, I'd suggest making a custom TPose that fixes it

[honest apex]

kk

[oak pendant]

Did anyone who tested on ik-beta experience this? (trying to isolate where issue appeared)

(messaged as reply to reference that post, but asking anyone not just Tony_Lewis)

[honest apex]

Nada. Been rapidly switching between lots of variants too

[pastel cloud]

I was on the ik-beta before i posted this as i updated to the open beta

and it was fine

[oak pendant]

Cool, thanks for the confirmation. Yeah it seems like avatars aren't getting onloaded or something, I don't know if that's part of something I touched, but will have to figure that out talking to other engineers internally

[pastel cloud]

All good, all i hit was calibrate when i loaded in my avatar and it got stuck like that

[hot fulcrum]

(I believe not Kung side fault at least.)

[raw wadi]

I saw that when making the GoBroke scaling, so people that use that variant have the model correctly center.

[latent knot]

@hot fulcrum Tested. No probleme. (legacy calibration)

[hot fulcrum]

I just forwarded from #open-beta-discussion to let Kung know and confirm by community but thank you for confirming.

[scarlet peak]

so do we still have the ik updates, just in the "open-beta" now?

from my understanding?

[scarlet peak]

yes my friend did

in his home-world, first calibration of the session

[final raven]

Everything that was in the ik-beta has been merged into the open-beta and the ik-beta branch has since been deleted.

[devout current]

It's also now "feature locked" so there won't be any new features, just fixes.

[pastel quest]

I actually wanted to test it, but now it's gone

[hexed summit]

Hello, I was looking for help on this. I think I got my answer, but just to make sure. I was looking for the IK beta option for my FBT on steam, and it wasn't showing up. Is it just the open beta option now?

[hexed summit]

Thank you so much!

[pastel quest]

okkk

[urban pumice]

feedback: i don't like the UI changes in the IK beta hiding the manual IK calibration buttons, or hiding the horizon adjust buttons, or making the reset horizon/etc buttons smaller

feedback: the small square menu not being grabbable is a huge problem for one handed users, especially those lying down

[final raven]

Please direct all suggestions and feedback to the canny.

[vital inlet]

i swear theydegraded the ik in the recent ik update

org ik beta was assome ,even tho echest tracking isnt goodanymore

currnt org beta

[junior wolf]

i dont think they added this part

which it's a bit upsetting that ik beta was removed, because now tracking just feels worse in open beta compared to the time using ik beta

[oak pendant]

Lock-Head positional chest tracking should be working in the Open Beta. The Open Beta has all of the updates that the ik-beta had

You can see the expected behavior of it at the very end of the preview video here: https://ask.vrchat.com/t/developer-update-3-august-2023/19212#vrchat-ik-beta-6

[junior wolf]

i dont know why it feels different then. ill play more later and see i guess

[oak pendant]

It's supposed to be quite subtle. Hmm maybe it's possible some of your saved settings got messed up from switching to Open Beta? Might be worth seeing if you were on lock-both before and remembering that behavior, or maybe trying lock-both and seeing if that's how you were expecting it to behave.

[junior wolf]

I don't think so. i was testing a lot on ik beta for the other modes but just stayed on lock head the whole time, which im still on now. Ill look for actual specifics the next time i play. could just be me placebo-ing myself

[oak pendant]

Here's the expected difference in how far the positional chest tracking can bend the spine to the side (I'm doing the same motion, trying to jut my chest to the side in both cases)

Focusing on how far this bone is allowed to tilt gives a pretty good sense of the relative subtleness of lock-head mode vs lock-both

[north lagoon]

I have been going insane trying to fix this for the past month

everything i try doesnt work and I have no idea why it happens

[devout current]

Just a random tip, if you change bone positions in Blender, you need to reset the import settings of your avatars FBX in Unity, as all the default humanoid bone position are still the same.
Could be related to that.

[north lagoon]

actually just a question do do you mean reset the pose and then re-enforce t-pose?

oh wait do you mean reset the fbx itself then reconfigure everything?

ah fak wait resetting the fbx reset all my materials back to default dang it, hmmmmmm

[devout current]

I at least always had to do that to prevent my self from looking completely broken after I made some bigger changes 😅

[north lagoon]

usually just remapping the avatar should fix that no?

[devout current]

Hmm not sure, you some how need to "reset" the humanoid bone positions. That's just how I did it, there could be better ways to do it.

[north lagoon]

out of curiosity is your hip, spine, check, check and head bones all 0 on the x axis? some of mine are a weird value like 1.732652e-16 even though in blender they are 0 on the X axis

[devout current]

That's just normal floating point precision

It is basically 0

[north lagoon]

okay good I was worried that may have been the cause

one of the interesting things I've found is that other models that I went back and checked from other creaters have the issue aswell and I think just not many people have noticed

even a model I got from Cam who is like a unity wizard has the viewpoint issue, so im wondering if it might be somethign sdk wise causing it

[devout current]

Hmmm weird

[north lagoon]

because without the Tpose animation applied the viewpoint is fine but with it applied its moved over

see this is without TPose

and this is with

@oak pendant I dont suppose you might have any insight on what could be the cause behind this? because its been driving me a little mental for awhile now.

[oak pendant]

tbh it could be an issue with our default TPose animation. I haven't touched that at all myself yet. (So far changes to default anim sets has been out of scope for the IK changes I've worked on) It's plausible that it has issues and in fact I remember having some problems with it from before I was hired

I'd recommend approaching it by trying to make your own custom TPose rather than changing your avatar in a way to make the default one work

(of course if the default has issues, that's totally something we should fix, but just responding from perspective of what you can do right now)

[raw wadi]

That's just the unity humanoid that somehow does this. Give a little x offset in the tpose

[chilly oyster]

Seems like lower arm twist with elbow tracker causes too much rotation to the elbow, and it looks broken even with a usual twist bone. People are doing own fixes for it already on their avatars. Any chance it will be solved on IK level instead?
https://vxtwitter.com/norio_709/status/1693626644219490694
https://vxtwitter.com/kurotori4423/status/1694249091730174458

[north lagoon]

would using your tpose animation fix that?

nvm tested it and the answer is yes, you the best franada

this just made my day genuinely

I just removed the scaling layer from your t pose animtor and bam instantly fixed the viewpoint issue that has been plaguing me FOR MONTHS

[north lagoon]

Franada fixed the issue ^-^

[honest apex]

Nah this is just the t pose animation

[devout current]

That seems to be the case here yeah

[honest apex]

(I reset pose any time I update the fbx)
Across all my comms and personal models if you get close it’s evident it’s offset to the side

[devout current]

I just mentioned it just in case ^^

[devout current]

Ah nice ^^

(Nice that you reset the pose, not that there is an offset) 😅

[north lagoon]

its so nice im ingame testing the ik with the fixed viewpoint and it finally feels right, for the longest time it felt....off

only slightly but like might left leg was always slightly bent and now I know why

[gleaming igloo]

whoa this is wild, unity's default tpose really is just slightly offset along the x-axis

Guess I never noticed cause fran put the offset in the gogo loco tpose and i've just always used that haha

[rustic berry]

fr?

that's weird

[weary coyote]

holy crap its ik 2-2

[mystic basalt]

I noticed this for a long time when calibrating but wasn't sure what to do

Seems this is a pretty widespread issue

[acoustic snow]

oh no, USB naming

[neat surge]

ik 2 ver. 2 gen. 2 rev. 2

[crimson mountain]

That's just semver now. 2.2.2.2

[neat surge]

USB consortium was just ahead of the game

[prisma meadow]

Seem to be having an issue with my 11 pt where when I kneel down too much my legs just start freaking out

[formal spear]

Ik beta gone?

[hot fulcrum]

combine into open beta

[formal spear]

ooh Oki thank

[winter abyss]

am I the only one who believes they fucked necks again with Lock Head?

[devout current]

?

[winter abyss]

Forced to use Lock Hip because of it. My head goes inside of my body when laying down while using lock head

[devout current]

Could you show us some pictures?

[winter abyss]

yeah maybe later

not in vr at the moment, just wanted to know if people knew

[frozen smelt]

Has the pose animations with 4-PT tracking has been adressed?

[north lagoon]

so Im not sure why but when I calibrate my avi no longer follows my head

[final raven]

You may have toggled on legacy calibration.

[north lagoon]

ahhh mayhaps, is that a new setting at all or has that always been an option?

[final raven]

It's been one since IK 2.0 has been a thing.
Main Menu Settings > Tracking & IK > Calibration & Debug

[north lagoon]

nope its off but acting like its on

[jade wyvern]

Has anyone noticed an odd bounciness in your knees when you straighten your knees in Lock Head or Lock Both mode, but not Lock Hip? I've noticed this since before the ik2-2 beta. The main issue is when dancing or jumping around a lot, your knees look really bad when straightened, so I calibrate with really bent knees to mitigate it for Lock Head/Both, which also isn't great. Here are 2 example videos in open beta with the same tracker setup, Lock Head first and Lock Hip second, with hip/knees/feet trackers and zero prediction.

[winter abyss]

lock head

lock hip

please fix lock head lol

[oak pendant]

It's difficult to see from the screenshot whether or not it's working as intended. If you'd be willing to share the avatar id for that avatar I can inspect the behavior. You can send in a message request if you'd prefer to DM

[oak pendant]

Using lock head will allow any bouncing at the headset to pull the hip up and down too which will be amplified at the knees if they're just on the edge of bending or not. If you use lock-both there should be a bit of leeway to stretch in in the spine which would stop the bounce at the head from propegating past the hips, but only if you're not already at the stretch limit. Assuming you're not using legacy calibration, I suggest that you look slightly upward while you're calibrating (maybe just ~10 degrees above horizon-level) this would bake in a bit of compression to the spine giving it more room to stretch back out to absorb bounciness at the head which could be pulling on the hips.

[jade wyvern]

gotcha, thanks for the explanation. I'll switch to Lock Both and try that

[idle roost]

I found that If we enabled "Freeze Tracking on Disconnect" and disabled "Allow Full-Body Tracking", it looks FBT is not correctly disabled.
I confirmed with multiple avatars.

[charred pulsar]

that avatar is too cute, did you make it yourself? i’d love a link for the hair

[charred pulsar]

? T_T

[winter abyss]

it's a hair my friend made but isn't sold anymore

[torpid heart]

I personally dance in locked hips mode as my legs don't seem to straighten out otherwise with lock head and the back seems to break in lock both when doing something like a handstand. Folds weirdly and makes an S shape almost

[ruby karma]

Lock Both is mostly for if you have a chest tracker on cause it will enable the chest IK.
If you don't have a chest tracker on and then you use lock both, then yes, your spine will be broken cause you don't have a chest tracker in place for it.

[fossil shale]

so like this used to be a thing before, when I opem the oculus menu or turn of my headset, normally my touch controllers would freeze from its last position not sure if its an oculus thing, steamVR, or VRChat

controllers used to freeze to its last position before, when controllers disconnects or if the headset disconnects, instead of going back to its desktop arms phase

[narrow yew]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/bug-reports/p/avatar-hands-switch-to-default-position-whilst-controllers-are-idle

[fossil shale]

ahh so its a VRChat issue then, atleast its known now

[rancid glen]

Not only is it known, it was also explained, its a side effect of some other fixes

#ik-2 message

It may eventually be fixed.

[burnt granite]

how can you lock your head with the legacy ik solving? because the new one is fucked

please, this new ik is unusable and looks horrible

[rancid glen]

That sounds like an avatar issue, not an issue of the IK.

[warm jasper]

really do hope they fix this soon, i like falling asleep in VR with friends, its nice to freeze tracking and tunr the headset off. but now arms kinda spaz out if a default animation isn't set. most either tpose or put arms straight down now. tbh it feels like this is not that hard to fix, if they can add the same freeze on tracking loss that every other tracker gets. its clearly reading it as a disconnect in game and falling back to idle pose.

its been an issue for several months now. and its only an issue in VRC, steam, other VR games, and more don't have an issue and they use the same API's and devkits from meta.

[burnt granite]

it happens on every avatar i tried

[raw wadi]

you can edit the idle for fbt so the arms are in a certain position when you hands die

[warm jasper]

this really isn't a reasonable solution. because its EVERY single avatar in game. and not one has had this fixed because it wasn't a problem at all till about 2 months ago. and i know i'm not gonna reupload 88 avatars back to the game to fix something an update broke.

[rancid glen]

Yea, that's not a solution really, your desired hand position may change wildly depending on when you go into standby.

[rancid glen]

Which begs the question have you tried it on avatars that have a decent armature that fits you

[burnt granite]

yeah since all of them worked perfectly fine bevore the update

[solar cloud]

What is a decent armature?

Like what would fall into that category?

And you can set idle poses now?

Before if my trackers died arms would just go down on tracking loss

Does this work with 3 point too?

[devout current]

That's the first time I'm hearing that

Could you elaborate the issue you are having a bit more in detail?

Maybe also try to take a few pictures in this world:
(it would be best to have one while calibrating and one normal)
https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[burnt granite]

it looks like my entire body is squinting

[solar cloud]

I need to check my avatar again I guess too but gonna need to find someone with fbt for that

[burnt granite]

i managed to fix it by moving my hip tracker really far down using the adjust fbt and having my chest tracker tilt down pretty far

[burnt granite]

i can send you some pictures later

[devout current]

Just post them in here please ^^

[solar cloud]

Is the Ik update live already?

[devout current]

yeah

[solar cloud]

Ok good since i can never convince friends to download the beta haha

So i can't test until it goes live

[devout current]

Since Thursday I think

[burnt granite]

ok

[acoustic snow]

Ik betas are historically network compatible fwiw

[devout current]

Oh yeah, he and his friends know. They just never wanted to bother with switching over to it xD

[solar cloud]

Yeah but i need a friend to test

I can't do it on my own

[rancid glen]

And then complain when their specific issue wasn't found

[solar cloud]

Are there even still any betas related to ik2?

[devout current]

no

the only public beta right now is Unity 2022

everything else is already live

[native nexus]

im with fupa on this, i kinda hate this ik

and im not gonna just ditch every avatar if setup for myself ive spent too much money to do that

its legitimately immersion-breaking

[final raven]

Are ppl really having that much issue with the new IK? Lock-all especially works well for me then ever before.

[rocky root]

so the "better" ik2 looks rly eh in my opinion...like what is that upper body moving no one moves like that when only moving your neck.... and yes i tried lock all then my avi moves aslo unnatural.. :/ worked 100% better before the update (old ik)

[rustic berry]

same, it works fantastic

[fiery plinth]

better overall, but yeah the chest/upper chest moving with head and hip rotations is a lil bleh for slow wiggles

[rustic berry]

do you use a chest tracker?

[fiery plinth]

nope, but my friend does and the chest now moves with head or hip rotations

[rustic berry]

sounds like they're not using Lock all

[fiery plinth]

we went through every option, settled with the funny legacy toggle

[agile arrow]

We are reaching a point where the legacy toggle needs to be a selector for each iteration of IK

[rustic berry]

I don't think that is necessary. it would create a lot of clutter

[final raven]

It's going to be deprecated at some point in the future anyway.

[crimson mountain]

Honestly, that's just a Rex issue. The Rex has a terrible skeleton and I just had to accept that when testing. The position of each of the spine bones have a lot of impact on how the upper body moves without a chest tracker when on lock all

[final raven]

Yeah, someone I know who is a rex also has issues, and it always just seems to affect rex avatars so definitely something up with the skeleton of those.

[oak pendant]

If the way that head waggle interacts with the torso is the main pain point, lock-hip is the mode that would be best to avoid that, or possibly lock-both with a chest tracker if you have one.

[acoustic snow]

last i checked the rex has several "rig hacks" that cause issues in a post ik-2 universe

[solar cloud]

I had an issue of the upper torso stretching when looking up/down and what fixed that for me was setting the viewpoint way farther back into the head

[empty root]

my avi doesnt do this. probably a bad rig

[vital inlet]

is it me

or the open beta stuck at loading

for 2022.3

2023.09.03 18:47:13 Exception - Unable to load DLL 'EOSSDK-Win64-Shipping'. Tried the load the following dynamic libraries: Unable to load dynamic library 'EOSSDK-Win64-Shipping' because of 'Failed to open the requested dynamic library (0x06000000) - The specified module could not be found. ;(

[vital inlet]

nvm found the issue

[mystic urchin]

98 support was dropped awhile ago

[solar cloud]

Lmao

[timber grove]

What’s wrong?

Could be a number of problems including:

• bad rig
• ik settings not tuned correctly
• bad calibration

[fiery plinth]

chest tracker seems ignored, cant just stand still and wiggle hips

whole chest moves opposite

[timber grove]

I think lock both mode has some chest influence configuration settings you can mess with.

also,

• lock hip: no chest movement
• lock head: some amount of chest movement
• lock both: full chest tracking
  (Copied from Sacred)

[vital inlet]

this^

[rustic berry]

if you have a chest tracker, my recommendation is to stick to Lock Both and fix your avatar rig if needed

[native nexus]

Thr rig was totally fine before the IK update, I played around with pretty much every setting with no luck, and recalibrates baybe 10 different times.

Whatever spine adjustments they made to Lock Head makes it so that my spine almost sort of folds when im laying down

my hips are a lot higher than they were before

[timber grove]

does lock hip improve it?

[native nexus]

Yes, but then my viewpoint is offset like a lot

and generally my movement doesnt look good with lock hip

Lock Both has all the same issues as Lock Hip

[rustic berry]

sounds like either:

• your user real height is not your real height
• you're using Wingspan instead of Height scaling
• your avatar rig is malproportioned (it does not matter if you think it was fine before, now it's not)

[native nexus]

The fact that enough avatars need to adjust their rig just to have decent fbt is a pretty good indicator that the ik is just bad

like

I have 17 different avatar bases and almost all of them are messed up

I dont think its reasonable to force so many users to learn how to edit a rig just to fix something that wasnt an issue before the update

[rustic berry]

the point of the IK beta was specifically to catch major issues with the new system before being pushed to live. if it's such a big problem, why wasn't it brought up during the beta period?

[native nexus]

Less people use the beta, lower sample size

idk

but im not the first person to say something about it

[rustic berry]

it's also not exactly reasonable to think that every single rig will keep working throughout updates forever. there's backwards compatibility, but to a point. if implementing a better system requires breaking really old setups, it might just have to be that way.

I'm not kung, I don't know what decisions were made/not made internally, so it's hard for me to say exactly how things went down

but I can say that without any changes, the rig that I've been using since IK2 first dropped has kept working and has only gotten better and better

when IK2 released, I edited my rig to match my proportions as best as possible, and to work best with IK2 (that is, very straight spine, and using Upperchest)

[deft spruce]

A great amount of people used the IK Beta since it was Live-Compatible. Many issues and Cannys were brought up at the time and have since been resolved before being put in the Public branch.

[native nexus]

ok

still now i have to edit like 17 different rigs

[rustic berry]

if you need help fixing your current rig to work best with the new IK, we are happy to help

[native nexus]

Yeah how do you even do that 😭

[rustic berry]

editing it in Blender

[native nexus]

...can you elaborate?

[rustic berry]

it would help to see what your current rig looks like, so I can point out issues with it

also, your viewpoint posiiton in unity matters a lot too

if it's too far forward, it will cause issues

[native nexus]

I think ive uploaded like 20 versions of my avatar just trying to fix that and i havent been able to find the right spot

[rustic berry]

X should be 0, it should be at eye height, and it should be inside the head, almost aligned with the neck bone

[native nexus]

that seems really far back

[rustic berry]

it is

[native nexus]

ANyways

[rustic berry]

yikes

yea, quite a few glaring issues

[native nexus]

yay

😭 🔫

[rustic berry]

• the legs should be straight when viewed from the front. right now, they are canted outwards. there should still be a slight knee bend.
• the arms should be straight, and either in a T or A pose. right now, they are sagging downwards, when they should be a straight line from the front. there should be a slight elbow bend backwards
• the spine seems mostly ok, but I would make sure the bones are connected. I'd also probably shorten the neck bone to make the head bone a bit bigger.

[native nexus]

if i fixed the legs in pose mode and just applied transforms would that be enough for that

[rustic berry]

you can use pose mode to fix the alignment, and then use CATS's Apply Pose as Rest Pose

[native nexus]

with the arms do the shoulders also need to be straight because most rigs ive seen are angled at least somewhat

[rustic berry]

I have mine straight, but a slight bend shouldn't matter too much

[rustic berry]

can you try shortening the hip bone a bit (shrink by half), and also shrink the spine a little bit (3/4 size)

you can just move down the top part of each bone to do that

[native nexus]

?

Are we adding upper chest or smth

is this not gonna seriously fuck with weightpainting or something

[rustic berry]

looks good, I'd maybe just make sure the spine and chest are set to Connected (bone properties). Upperchest does help, but it's not strictly required

if you don't want to do any weight painting, don't bother with it

[native nexus]

thats just a really large chest bone is all

[rustic berry]

it's fine

[acoustic snow]

a bit late but there's a lot of good visual ref in the docs

https://docs.vrchat.com/docs/full-body-tracking

[solar cloud]

if i ever get fbt i hope i wont run into issues with that, currently i have it larger than i am currently with 3 point tracking to fit properly to my arm length

[native nexus]

are you saying like this

[rustic berry]

your head is slouched forwards, it probably should not be like that

this is causing you to be putting your viewpoint more forward that it should be

[native nexus]

yippee

im going to go insane

[rustic berry]

nah you got this 👍

[native nexus]

Im having to edit armatures for accessories too

because

clothes

[rustic berry]

aim for something a bit more straight like this

[native nexus]

i mean i figured

[rustic berry]

when calibrating, this is likely the pose you'll be in

after calibrating, you're free to slouch forwards if you want lol

[native nexus]

ok so slight issue if i make it straight im just looking up

[steady turret]

technically the mesh does not need to have a straight neck, its about the bones

a slouched neck like that can be a stylistic choice, especially with something like a hyena

long as the armature is straight it should be fine

[rustic berry]

sure, you can do that, but then in order to have your viewpoint in a position that makes sense for the IK, it would have to be really far back in the head

in their case, almost aligned with the ears

[steady turret]

viewpoint position matters yes, but depending on the avatars proportions, it might not always look best in the same spot

e.g. i have avatars where head rotations look best when the viewpoint is just barely inside the head. they should probably just test and see what looks best and then iterate based on that

[acoustic snow]

Could also run a constraints setup, have your cake and eat it too

Not that it'd be any fun to setup

[solar cloud]

How do i make the lines show up in blender like above?

And how do i move the camera?

mmh i only got this. how is that?

[native nexus]

so im testing the rig in vrchat now and its somehow worse

[rustic berry]

when you imported the modified version in unity, did you reset the pose in the rig config?

Pose > Reset, and then Pose > Enforce T pose

in the scene view, if the pose doesn't update after that, use Pumkin's to reset the pose

[native nexus]

i did yeah

ok actually

moving my viewpoint forward helped

still not as good as before

so, cool. wasted several hours

[rustic berry]

what IK settings are you using in game?

• legacy IK or no?
• height or wingspan?
• user real height your actual height or modified?
• which locking mode?

[native nexus]

• no
• Height
• Modified
• Lock Head

i also did it witrh wingspan, real height, and different locking modes

so like

whatever im over it atp

[rustic berry]

hm, strange. what exactly feels weird? is it when normally standing up, when sitting, laying down?

and have you used this world to see if anything weird was happening? https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[native nexus]

its when im laying down

[rustic berry]

it's also possible the proportions of the limbs are wrong. for example, if your legs are too long or too short, because the avatar is scaled with the height the hips will end up in a different spot

[native nexus]

im comparing the new rig to the old rig so proportions are kind of oput of the questionm here

those never changed

im just gonna revert it

[rustic berry]

I still think it's worthwhile spending the time to proportion the limbs properly, as it can make a pretty big difference

[native nexus]

I like my proportions

ive said earlier that whatever happened is breaking my immersion, so changing my avatar's proportions is mgonna break it even more

[timber grove]

wrong proportions can feel like garbage

make sure they align with your irl body

Also is your height your irl height?

[oak pendant]

If you can send me your avatar ID in a dm/message request I can inspect the behavior and see what's going on. If you still have an upload in the old/unmodified state that would probably be best. Also if you could share a screenshot or even better, a video of the issue you're having when you lay down that would help. If you can visit this world when taking ss/vid that also helps: https://vrchat.com/home/world/wrld_01025423-c339-4735-8af9-ba45cc9e46f2

[teal apex]

so ive run into a problem when my chest bone is going weird in fullbody mode while locking head. seems to be a problem only happen with quest headset+ light house base fullbody tracking

ive have friend using valve index and they dont have the bone issue

this is how it looks like when looking up with quest pro(left and valve index (right

it looks like how it would look like back in the day with lock both, but now it does it with lock head too

pivot head left and right will also cause the chest to go weirdly left and right like a noodle

[oak pendant]

When you calibrate, if you turn on calibration visuals do you see anything binding to the chest tracker? (If you could post a screenshot of what the calibration visuals look like before binding in that would help too) If this is a difference between your setup and your friend's Index setup it may be the case that something involved with the mixed tracking / a continuous calibration tracker / etc is being bound to the chest bone as a chest tracker.

[teal apex]

i have a continuous calibration tracker sticked onto my quest headset

is there anyway to have it set so its not set to chest bone

[oak pendant]

The quickest way is to reduce your calibration range slider in the main menu tracking & IK settings. The best way is to use the new --ignore-trackers=serial1,serial2, etc launch option, and put the serial number of your continuous calibration tracker in there

If you use the launch option, then it'll never participate in calibration

(it'll still be visible though)

Also I think there's an option in the continuous calibration space calibrator branch to move the tracker up by 1km or something so it's never included in calibration, so that could work too, and then it wouldn't be in your face during calibration (if that's a problem)

[vestal ridge]

I think it's titled along the lines of "hide tracker from application" or something

[teal apex]

pogpog

[vestal ridge]

I do recommend kungs launch option solution though, it allows for three point to function correctly with a calibration tracker
For the all the rare occasions you'll be in three point, lmao

[teal apex]

tru

thanks~

now i just need to see what the serial is

[vestal ridge]

It'll say it in space calibrator if you only turn the tracker on on its own

Not sure how else you'd get it

[teal apex]

i see

i might be able to see it in the calibration window thing

yeah

[fiery plinth]

Its also in the test controllers window, all of my stuff started with LHR

[primal valve]

Does the motion prediction option not show up unless I'm actively in full body?

(trying to get a screenshot of it to help someone :P)

[lilac spear]

only applies to pucks afaik, not hands or hmd

[devout current]

Hmm, I mean it's only relevant in fullbody so I could see that being the case

[devout current]

not sure though

[elfin relic]

There is relevancy to it for controllers at least ("smoothing" your head would be a bad idea), always had it up 20 or so % on OVR smooth tracking, helped with jitter, probably mostly coming from my own hands.

[devout current]

It is not applied to controllers

only additional trackers

[elfin relic]

I am aware of that, thought you meant there was no reason to smooth out the controllers.

[primal valve]

Also, weird question, but how do I change the pose I go into when controllers aren't detected? I have a custom stand in Action and Locomotion but using one controller still has my arm straight down

I have one controller only (other is being RMA'd atm)

[robust tangle]

int TrackingType is 3 when you have head and hands, should drop to 2 or 1 while bool VRMode stays as true when a controller dies so you can detect and play an animation that way. This is more of a #avatar-general though not really for beta

[naive sandal]

If you have 2 feet, you stay in 6 pt

[rustic zodiac]

Suggestion for future IK improvement:
Would it be possible for Vrchat to somehow show you when a tracker is mis-behaving or disconnects?
I think this would be IK related as it would need the IK solver to check if outside of sane bounds.

My solution would be ignoring that tracking point temporarily when this happens and showing it locally as the config ball or equivalent, but in Red to indicate it's either not tracking or out of bounds, if you wanted to get fancy, even a temperature system to show trackers that consistently do this when re-calibrating.
This would make it good for debugging tracking issues more easily.
I know it's not really a VRChat specific issue, but a QOL improvement that I see as something VRChat could provide players.
Sometimes tracking doesn't stop completely, but instead tracking starts to drift and this can be quite annoying.

[devout current]

VRChat does now actually freezes Trackers in place if tracking is lost

You can for example put a blanket over your trackers and they will just stay in place

[rustic zodiac]

True, but is there any way to see what trackers have stopped tracking?
For example elbows etc, can be a bit difficult to tell unless you know positions normal IK solver can't achieve properly.
Also this doesn't account for trackers being intermittently lost or having bad data (interference), Mirrors

[devout current]

With VRChat it self there isn't a way to see that

I think there was a canny about a hud for that

[lilac spear]

i find it pretty obvious to see when a tracker is offline

[raw wadi]

instead of snapping the rotation of the root in fbt when moving the joystick, could we get a lerp effect ?

[primal valve]

dang, extremely niche uscase but sad i can't use a tracker for my hand

[ember drum]

I’ve been having a problem since after the most recent IK update where some of my avatars eyes are darting all over the place and going way outside of how far they are supposed to move. Any idea as to what I could do to minimize that? For note I have no eye tracking on a valve index with 3 Vive trackers for full body. I know it’s the update that caused it cuz I switched back when it was in beta and that fixed it.

[primal valve]

wait, i can set to hand in steamvr

[finite bough]

yeah running into the same problem

except i do have valve index

[empty root]

you can but it goes wonky af

[solar cloud]

You can try using VRCFury eye look fix temporarily

Have the same thing happening

But it seems fine with that fix

[barren summit]

Hi, Kung-san. On the three-point tracking environment, the FBT-related buttons appear if you connect a gamepad to your PC. Could you check this issue? https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/the-fbt-related-features-wrongly-appear-if-a-gamepad-is-connected

As browsing X aka Twitter posts, this happens from VRChat 2023.3.2 Build 1344 that merges IK updates including "too many SteamVR devices" issue fix. So, I guess something has changed in the device detection process.

[rustic berry]

you should just be able to disable gamepad support in steamvr

in the settings I believe it's just under Manage addons

[hot fulcrum]

some still use gamepad so it still the new issue.
(as patched before)

[ember drum]

Funny that your the one to respond as im pretty sure it’s your avi that im using that was broke by the update, I will look into the thing you mentioned, thanks!

[solar cloud]

Mmh interesting. Yeah my Public avatars don't have that fix yet but i didn't do much testing with that one in general yet

[ember drum]

Ah ok thanks for lookin into it. I didn’t want to message or @ you directly as to not bother you lol

[rustic berry]

I'm curious as to what the "eye fix" is exactly

[barren summit]

This one? (I tried it now, but it didn't fix the issue.)

[rustic berry]

no, in SteamVR

[hot fulcrum]

They meant, in SteamVR, under auto start add-on section. there is gamepad option.

(Actually that is global setting)

[barren summit]

I found it. I have to switch the Advanced Settings to Show. And it works. Thank you.

[hot fulcrum]

ah

[solar cloud]

seems to help with the issue mentioned though

[rustic berry]

so the issue is people having bone roll on the eyes, which was already known to be bad

skill issue

[solar cloud]

never heard of that and not my model

[rustic berry]

not specifically talking about your models, but in general it's a known fact that the head and eyes should be perfectly upright with 0 roll

[solar cloud]

thats stuff related to rigging which i dont understand lol

i have like 0 blender/rigging knowledge

[raw wadi]

eye go derp even when strait, was always the case, some avatar seen to be more prone to do it

[empty root]

its not general known

i didnt know that til now, and im a hit more into avatars than the average person booth bashing

[wet trout]

i have a weird issue with the feet on an avatar that seem to not stay in place with hip movement, but only on the new ik. i am convinced its some weird bone issue or something with the avatar. is this a good spot to post an example vid and see if it makes sense to anyone? or moreso in one of the avatar sections.

[deft spruce]

Go Derp

[mint night]

center the bones properly or disable eye movement but i don't know how this would be affected by IK if the avatar is rigged properly

[undone plinth]

Fairly specific IK-2 question which is why I'm asking here rather than in #avatar-rigging

When using a chest-tracker with an upper-chest bone in lock-both, it seems like it disproportionally influences the "Chest" rotation, resulting in heavy scrunch from bending, rather than the spine compressing (in this example, the torso on the model is longer than my actual body). Based on my actual pose, I would have expected to see more compression and less rotation.

If I disconnect the chest tracker, I get a SIGNIFICANTLY cleaner bend down the entire spine where it does compress more, rather than scrunch rotationally (don't have a screenshot of this on-hand).

Is the distance of the chest tracker to the actual humanoid chest bone (not upper-chest) potentially a cause of this? Spine, chest, and upper chest are all about the same length. That places the chest bone a tad low, but not absurdly low.
When I look at the calibration bubbles, it's pretty centered, but there's a fairly decent distance from the tracker/calibration bubble to the chest bone.

Trying to figure out what about the chest tracker is increasing scrunch, as when I don't have the chest tracker, I get a much better spine deformation where it doesn't protrude the chest out as far backwards, and compresses it more instead.

[rustic berry]

you did your rigging under the assumption that UpperChest is a replacement for Chest, with Chest simply being an extra "spine", which is not the case. UpperChest should be a smaller bone between the chest and neck, giving more mobility to the neck area and thus reducing in smoother bending

Chest should still be the largest bone in the spine

[undone plinth]

Source engine lives on in our brains

Thank you for the side view as well. That's a great example of the proportions

Will try something like that.

[rustic berry]

it's also important to keep the spine as straight as possible

[undone plinth]

I know that IK2 uses the baked rotation since the spine compression was added. Are you saying it's important specifically if you are using the extra bones? Or just in general (since it no longer pre-straightens)?

[rustic berry]

in general, it helps avoiding snapping when looking up/down or bending up/down, because there's very little slack

it also kinda makes more sense. if you're standing up in a T pose, your spine should basically be at maximum "tension" anyways. (when T posing, try to be relaxed, don't stand "overly" straight/stretch out). when you confirm the calibration, in theory there shouldn't really be a way for the spine to become any longer

depending on the proportions in your avatar, it's still possible that when you stretch your back for example, it causes extra tension in the avatar's spine, but that's what the new spine squishing and stretching is for. it helps compensates for the discrepancies between your body proportions and the avatar proportions

[undone plinth]

👍