open-beta-discussion

[timber jewel]

You can also put in an end point without needing an extra transform (empty object)

That's what the Endpoint Position is there for

[mortal plume]

it'll behave the same way though

it's just easier to add a bone

[timber jewel]

Yeah

But you avatar will have one more bone and one more Phys Bone transform in your Performance ranking :p

[mortal plume]

adding an endpoint is still going to add an extra transform

there's no difference between a bone and an empty object in unity

[timber jewel]

Ik, but I wasn't sure if it's also counted for your performance ranking

[timber jewel]

@floral barn I feel like this could create a few problems for bone chains

[floral barn]

why?

[timber jewel]

bone chains would then have those empty areas where the bones meet

not really a big problem though

[floral barn]

so don't use it on bone chains

I'm suggesting it as an option

I've only wanted it on chains one bone long

[timber jewel]

okay yeah that's an valid point

[turbid saffron]

I wonder if a skip root function would be good for tidying up messes.

So if someone has a root bone set for everything that's null and needs things to ignore that.

[timber jewel]

just set the bone after that as the root then?

[turbid saffron]

More of a weird not-optimization hack.

[floral barn]

I'm not positive, but I think that would mean less data but not less calculations, and the latter is the only real bottleneck

is this a known problem with building on android in the beta?

[timber jewel]

I have not seen that before

[floral barn]

the descriptor doesn't look like it's working right either

[timber jewel]

I think your SDK is a bit broken

[floral barn]

agreed, but why/how

[timber jewel]

idk honestly

have you tried re importing it?

[floral barn]

will try importing it in android mode in a bit...

what is that bit about "animations: male", anyway?

I've never noticed that in the proper editor, is that a thing that can be set?

bizarre -- just switched back to Android again and this time it's fine. weird fluke

[timber jewel]

weird

[steep umbra]

How fix?

Error: Could not load signature of VRC.Dynamics.MathUtil:DistancePointToPlane due to: Could not load file or assembly 'Unity.Mathematics, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null' or one of its dependencies. assembly:Unity.Mathematics, Version=1.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null type:<unknown type> member:(null) signature:<none>

[floral barn]

I got something like that; I deleted the SDK completely and reinstalled the latest one

but bear in mind that might erase all your components (I didn't try)

[steep umbra]

I've done that over 20 times in the last week, and I'm not exaggerating

[floral barn]

no idea then, sorry

[bright jungle]

Import the Mathematics and Burst packages in Unity's package manager

[steep umbra]

They are imported, updating now

But if a subversion on my maths was breaking all of it; I'm gonna break shit

[timber jewel]

and? was it that?

[steep umbra]

Testing the upload now

#3d-modeling

Actually fucking fuming

Gimme the servers

I have gods work to do

@bright jungle DM me

[bright jungle]

would probably get more/better answers by asking here lol

[steep umbra]

You were right

So DM me

[timber jewel]

lol

[mossy python]

This is an SDK bug that happens occasionally when switching build target to android. Simply close Unity and re-open it to fix the issue.

I’ve had it happen my fair share of times. It’s been happening less in recent times however

[slow moss]

Is there a live release date yet?

[timber jewel]

nope

but a lot of people hope for next week

[mossy python]

The answer is likely soon™️

[slow moss]

Well, does VRC ever announce big, major updates?

[mossy python]

No

That’s why I said soon™️

[silver ledge]

me already crying in the number of avatars i will have to update

[timber jewel]

I would have fun doing that ngl xD

[silver ledge]

but good job to the vrc team to make the physbones pretty easy to use and converting not too difficult 👍

[warm cedar]

You haven't even started? BAHAHa

[humble pulsar]

Yeah it’s really good to use

[warm cedar]

Oh I am slow that message wasn't read, woops

[humble pulsar]

I still have old SDK 2 avatars uploaded which are lost to time so I won’t be ever be able to update them lol

[silver ledge]

nah, im IK beta all time since i want to have a close eye on potential locomotion changing stuff, so i can push out update when needed for the "locomotionfix"

[timber jewel]

It's funny how the Dynamic Bone script is basically just everything in a list without any organisation or documentation

[warm cedar]

that's most C# scripts

[timber jewel]

Phys Bones are so organised in comparison

[silver ledge]

thats true, also limiting angles as well as pickable multiple child bones behaviour eliminates weird graphs, so well thought out 👍

[sullen elk]

I love how many things in Phys Bones came with tooltips to describe how things work

[timber jewel]

yeah it's really great

[molten cobalt]

the vrchat team would be well aware of how many people would be looking at their code compared to the dynamic bones developer

[stable wagon]

I feel you on that o.O

[small surge]

updated 60issh, have both old dynbones/phys , didnt use the autoconvert it was abit bleh having to set isanimated off constantly

[reef vault]

I'm on oculus quest 2 with oculus link, but I switched vrchat mode from the beta to the live version, game crashes when loading in

Is that issue still a thing?

I heard something about this a while back where switching the beta can mess things up

[timber jewel]

Just wondering, but is it planed to completely remove dynamic bones and force auto conversion at some point in the future?

[hazy linden]

The docs say as much https://docs.vrchat.com/v2022.1.2/docs/physbones

[timber jewel]

well, I really should have just looked at the docs xD

Btw the Minimum Displayed Performance Rank is missing the info of what happens when you have to many Phys Bones.
https://docs.vrchat.com/v2022.1.2/docs/avatar-performance-ranking-system#minimum-displayed-performance-rank

[near grove]

Things explode

That's all that would need to be said

[bright jungle]

would imagine that it's the same as DBs, where if you have too many, it'll just disable all DBs for that avatar

that's conjecture though, not definitively sure if it's the same for physbones

[swift prism]

does the DynBone > PhysBone converter not convert colliders yet?

I’m still using regular Dynamic Bones to keep feature parity with stable for now but I noticed that hair-brushing didn’t quite work on beta.

[sour epoch]

it should, even inside colliders

[swift prism]

regular dynbones auto-converted just fine, but colliders didn’t

[sour epoch]

odd, that's worth investigating. anything odd about them?

[swift prism]

nothing unusual: colliders on each hand and dynamic bones at each hair group, breasts, and skirt

(to be specific, the colliders are set on the index fingertips)

[sour epoch]

oh, maybe those get replaced by the built in colliders? I could see that being a thing

[swift prism]

imo, using a one-size-fits-all solution for adding colliders sounds like a really bad idea in a game heavily reliant on user-generated content

and I know it wasn’t working because my hand was clipping deep inside my hair and not a single strand was disturbed

[sour epoch]

sounds broken one way or another

[swift prism]

it works on stable

[sour epoch]

usually the built in finger colliders are pretty good

[swift prism]

usually

[slender ocean]

make sure the bones you want to interact with have a radius > 0

[sour epoch]

maybe the old colliders are interfering with the process of adding built in colliders. I wonder what happens if you just remove them

[swift prism]

bone radius?

[slender ocean]

yeah, physbone

[swift prism]

dynamic bones don’t have radius parameters

afaik

[sour epoch]

yes they do

[slender ocean]

they always have, and so do physbones

[swift prism]

it works fine on stable

[slender ocean]

difference is, physbones cant be bopped if radius is zero, dynbones can (but can be hard to hit the tiny colliders)

[sour epoch]

but if you don't set it then the collision wouldn't have worked even in DB

I think

is that wrong?

[swift prism]

i didn’t even know dynamic bones had a radius parameter to begin with

[sour epoch]

is it 0 on your bones?

If that works in DB then PB should add that too. I haven't heard anyone bring it up yet

[slender ocean]

I dunno I think its useful to be able disable collision on a per-bone basis by controlling the radius with a curve, though perhaps auto-converted bones should be limited to 0.001 or something at minimum

[swift prism]

@slender ocean @sour epoch They’re all 0.

[slender ocean]

well then that would be why you cant interact with them

[swift prism]

submitted the bug report

[timber jewel]

I think having a collision radius of 0 should still just turn off collision, because with that we can use curves to turn on / off collision for specific bones. A better solution would be to give every auto converted DB a small minimum collision radius if they don't have a custom one.

There is already a canny about that

[timber jewel]

I feel like the Contact Count performance stats aren't working, I have 2 Contact Receivers and one Contact Sender

[timber jewel]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1188-contact-count-in-main-menu-avatar-details-is-always-0

[warm cedar]

Enjoy it while it lasts, before you know it you'll be very poor

[timber jewel]

I have 3 Contacts, I think I'm fine xD

[warm cedar]

NO

YOU ARE NEVER SAFE!

Very poor! no fun allowed!

[timber jewel]

I am actually Very Poor anyway xD
So I don't think it matters that much lmao

[eternal pawn]

So how do I get the open bets vrchat for oculus like so I can see the fizz bones

[upper mountain]

#open-beta-info

[eternal pawn]

I'm a little lost cause I do have the open beta just dont see where I can activate the physbones

[timber jewel]

This is how it looks in VRChat

and that's how it looks in Unity

and also how it should be

any ideas why it's moved forward ingame?

[mossy python]

Might be because there’s also a physbone component in the same object

[timber jewel]

that's not the problem, works fine on my Avatar (Phys Bone is used to grab the bat with the left hand)

The scaling seemed a bit weird, so I changed that

(uploading right now to see if it fixed it)

and that wasn't it....

I'm clueless

[timber jewel]

using a different baseball bat it now works

just experienced this when testing with a friend

[fallow rock]

ah yes, the edge falling. I get this a lot in the minesweeper world on Live

[silver ledge]

Use custom locomotion layers like gogoloco or locomotionfix, they try to detect a flapping ground state and if they do, they disable falling animations (does not help if ik is doing stuff itself)

[timber jewel]

I haven't experienced this with my Avatar, probably because I use locomotionfix lite

[silver ledge]

Yeah, it has this detection built in

to explain it shortly: that detection is basically looking out if grounded switches from false to true and sends itself into a roughly 1 second cooldown. if grounded becomes false within that cooldown, the cooldown will get reset and the check begins anew. Only if one has grounded = true for more than one second, it will allow a jumping animation to play

[olive hare]

For some reason I'm missing a Values option, can someone help me out?

I'm using the most recent beta

[warm cedar]

it sends out the necesarry value to the parameter.

If it's a boolean, it will send it out as is, same with int or float

[olive hare]

WDYM? So if my Parameter is an int/bool/float it will work without that box?

[warm cedar]

Yep!

just remember to spell both correctly

Practically place the parameter in the "parameter" box, and you're ready to go

[olive hare]

Well, that's another issue, I have both my parameter set the exact same (via control c/v) and I get an error saying the Parameter is not found.

[warm cedar]

Is it on your animator?

[olive hare]

Yep

[warm cedar]

well can you show the error message?

[warm cedar]

Could you also show your contact with it filled in, and the animation parameters? Let's make sure everything is okay here

[warm cedar]

Well have you placed the controller in the anination component on the avatar?

[olive hare]

The controller or the FX? because Bow_Toggle is a Toggle Prop

[warm cedar]

Fx

Fx on the animator component on the avatar, otherwise unity doesn't know where to look

[olive hare]

or like this?

[warm cedar]

Yes

2nd

The first is for vrchat, the second for unity testing

[olive hare]

I'm still getting the error

[warm cedar]

Well that is odd

Does it also not work? because I'd recommend to test the functionality tol as it's a warning

[olive hare]

it did not work

Well Skeleton_Pull is connected to an animation (not an immediate change), would that be a problem?

[warm cedar]

Not to my knowledge, it should work if it's set on the contact and the animator

[olive hare]

is there anything that relates to collisions that should be in my avatar?

[warm cedar]

Nope, this error has to do with the animator

well, it's actually a warning

Warnings: 🟨
Error: 🟥

[olive hare]

yea

Wait should I have a separate controller for the avatar itself? Because I'm currently using the FX for the animator

[warm cedar]

The fx is the animator

Unity will look for the parameter on the animator of the avatar

[olive hare]

so having both the animator and the FX base as the FXController is fine?

[mortal plume]

why would you do that though

the one in the Animator gets replaced at runtime

you only need to put something there for testing purposes

[olive hare]

Oh

[timber jewel]

you can use the AVatar 3.0 Emulator to also test stuff out

really usefull

[olive hare]

I've got that installed

[timber jewel]

have you enabled it?

[olive hare]

I think I'm using a different one- lyuma's

wait nvm

[sand vale]

Is there a way for me to test contact receivers with avatar 3.0 emulator?

[timber jewel]

Just make a contact sender and give it a custom tag

Is mouse speed based on frame rate again?

[mighty glacier]

could anyone tell me what is this?

[floral flint]

That should be the pickup script

Unsure how you got to that point

[timber jewel]

what is the Test Marker for btw?

[raw forge]

#avatar-general message

[timber jewel]

ah okay, thx ^^

[mighty glacier]

wdym? i was just looking through to see new stuff

[small surge]

openbeta sdk has a bunch of stuff im not sure should be there

[floral flint]

It might be containing stuff from the world jam SDK

If anyone can make a canny about it that'd be cool

[mighty glacier]

ahh ok

[open kite]

Not anymore

The Emulator broke in the most recent SDK update due to changes in Contact behavior

Unfortunately the Emulator has not been updated yet

[timber jewel]

it still works for me

[open kite]

The Emulator works, but it cant emulate Contacts anymore

[timber jewel]

ohhhh

[small surge]

2.9.7 works? ive used it for some days

[sand vale]

Anyone know why the default state on this animator seems to stick around longer than it should? https://files.catbox.moe/uojh6s.mp4
Here's what it looks like, and what I have the transitions set to.

Entry and Exit aren't set to loop, Default is

[sour epoch]

disable exit time

even when set to 0, it'll still have to wait for the end of the animation

er, well, you don't have any conditions so you can't disable exit time... I'm confused, do you not want exit time?

well anyway, whatever transition in this process that does have a condition, if it does have exit time, disable it

not seeing all your transitions so can't say for sure though

[sand vale]

Ah, it might just be saing that since they're all selected... Transition from Default to Entry activates when the parameter NoseBoop is set to 1, transition from Entry to Exit activates when NoseBoop is set to 0, and transition from Exit to Default has no condition, just waits for the animation to finish

[sour epoch]

you can select multiple transitions at once but they'll all show up in that list top right and only the one that is highlighted will show up in the inspector

you cannot edit multiple transitions at once

[sand vale]

Ah, gotcha

I'll disable exit time and see how that works

Something else I want to do is maybe set up interruptions or something so that it holds up if someone taps my nose quickly. Should I just make a transition from Exit to Entry that activates when NoseBoop's set to 1?

Oh, seems like it already works fine when that's being done. Nevermind

Thanks for the help Phase, I appreciate it

[open kite]

Yeah but not on the newest Beta SDK

Like, it works, its just Contacts that cant be Emulated anymore on the recent SDK

[timber jewel]

aka they can't drive the parameters anymore I would guess

since that's what got changed

[small surge]

This is the newest sdk, were using it earlier

[timber jewel]

They work if you use floats for contacts I think

cause it didn't work with bools for me

[open kite]

Yeah something like that

[small surge]

ah bools no mine are floats

[timber jewel]

(in editor)

[open kite]

Its weird

[small surge]

can test it again tho, pretty sure they work fine

[open kite]

Then youd be the first person I know that it still works for

[timber jewel]

yeah floats were the only way it worked back then, now you can use floats, ints and bools

and the emulator doesn't know that

[austere quail]

out of curiosity, when would you want the new Momentum in advanced mode to be different than 1?

[slow moss]

So, is the new SDK up for the AD beta?

[hollow hatch]

The Avatar Dynamics Beta has been up for weeks

[slow moss]

The SDK?

[timber jewel]

#open-beta-announcements ?

[slow moss]

Ah, well tbh, right now the SDK is not a big deal for me

I'm currently working on making avatars

I just need a teacher

Because that's how I learn best (:

[timber jewel]

That's not what this channel is for, if you need help for creating an Avatar please go to #avatar-general or #avatar-help .

[slow moss]

Sorry

[timber jewel]

This channel is for discussion about Avatar Dynamics, so Phys Bones, Contacts and so on.

[slow moss]

I understand

[hollow hatch]

If you need help specifically for those, that is what this channel is kind of for, but general avatar creation is in the channels DrBlackRat shared

[timber jewel]

Yup

[slow moss]

Ok

[lost frost]

Where do I join the avatar dynamics beta

[hollow hatch]

#open-beta-info for how to get the beta client, read all of the information before you do

[pine dune]

where do I find avatars that can work w this beta ?

[hollow hatch]

Likely only used by people who do their own avatars and are testing, or in the world created by VRChat specifically for testing avatars. I can't remember the name, probably something with Physbones or Avatar Dynamics in the name

[pine dune]

Thank you

[sullen elk]

https://youtu.be/PriDLyZW8XI
It is finally time to show off!
Here she is in full.
Nearly as ready as she can be for Live Release <3<3

Feedback, questions and comments would be appreciated as well as sharing!

[verbal scaffold]

I can't seem to switch from Beta to Live on the quest version of vrchat.

[bright jungle]

you can thank Meta for that lol - try switching to the Live branch, then reinstalling the game

If that doesn't work, wait a couple hours before reinstalling

[verbal scaffold]

well I am already on Live for my pc-version, just can't seem to find where to switch back, unless it's linked to the account.
Note that I never switched to beta for quest version, which means that it was likely account-linked, since the last time I used quest was last year.

[bright jungle]

It's not account linked afaik
check the top of #open-beta-info for instructions on how to opt in/out of the beta

[echo harbor]

Is it known if theres an issue with the latest beta SDK where, if you toggle -any- float parameter, you simply freeze in place for everyone else in the world? You can freely move around from your perspective. But upon exiting the parameter, you simply teleport from everyone elses perspective but your own to where you currently stand? Because currently that happens for me lol

I do not know if this is somehow localized for me, but it happened over several worlds. It's rather odd.

My current SDK version is: 2022.04.14.17.35

[carmine moat]

Hey, i have a question about the Contacts parameter's called "Local Only",
on the doc they only say "Limit this contact to only work on the local client." does it mean it will only work for the one who interract with it or only for me ?

[hazy linden]

It'll only trigger for you locally. Other people won't see it trigger, but they can still interact with it if you have it set

[sullen elk]

But if you have the local that changes a synced parameter, the network sync will have the parameter eventually match up as far as I’m aware

[carmine moat]

okay thanks, so there's no way to make a contact that will only work for the one that clicked on it ?
for example:
i want to make a contact that do a funny thing when you click on it but only and only for the one who clicked on it and no one else

[hazy linden]

Potentially, yeah there may not be a way. Though I'm not sure

[carmine moat]

no, i'm asking if there's a way to do that ?

[hazy linden]

That's what I was responding to yes. I'm not sure if there is a way at all

[carmine moat]

because if the contact local is only for the local avatar and not the remote it wont work

okay

[sullen elk]

Depends on what you’re trying, the closest you can get is an effect that happens in a very tiny radius.
Otherwise you’d need to go down some pretty advanced paths to get an exclusive person effect

You can make it so that you specifically don’t see it using the IsLocal native parameter

[carmine moat]

the fact that i see it or not is not an issue, the real issue is that i want only a specific person to be able to see it

and not everyone

[carmine moat]

also, is it me or even with that "momentum" parameter there's still no real momentum in physics bones... i tried as much as i can to make a rope like object with/
pull : 0
momentum : 1
Stiffness : 0
immobile : 0
gravity : 0.01
gravity falloff : 0

it just keep wobble back and forth infinitely (for a really long time it seem to stop after a longwhile) without going in rest pose like a rope will do or like dynamic bones did...

it seems putting a little stiffness works but it seem like there's something else that also make the momentum not working correctly, like if i remove gravity and remove the stiffness to there's still something that make it stop even if there's no force to make it stop rotating

[winged hamlet]

Hey dose anyone know the name of the world where all betas hang out?

[sullen elk]

That's because Pull is how much the chain wants to go back to its rest pose.

[carmine moat]

it's not pull but momentum

[fallow rock]

Pull would try to return it to the default orientation like a spring whereas for something like a rope I would drop the momentum from 1 and give a little bit of stiffness

I'm just playing with it now. I'm on 0, 0.95, 0.01, 0, 0.01, 0 just trying that out with collisions

[carmine moat]

exactly what i did and it works... but if i try without gravity it doesn't works as intended.
if you put everything to 0 except momentum to 1 and compare to what dynamic bone do with everything on 0 it doesn"t do the same thing as it should.
if you take something that have 0 resistance and make it rotate in space, it will rotate indefinitely (the result you get with DB)
but with physics bone it stops after a few second like if there's a phantom friction somewhere

by activating the debug menu and forcing momentum to 100000 it fixed it but it still seem stoping slowly and acting weirdly

[timber jewel]

when I put everything at 0, but momentum at 0, it spins around fine, but as you said it get's slower over time

as if there would be friction

[carmine moat]

exactly that's not a big issue but it's there and it is not normal

[timber jewel]

yeah probably not a big issue (idk any reason you would want something to spin all the time and use a dynamic bone for it), but if you want, you could still make a canny for it

[carmine moat]

it's for a sphere that i can spin around my hand like the sphere with songs and springjoint that everyone use, but i want to use physbone to make anyone able to grab it

[timber jewel]

would you need it to spin around all the time?

[carmine moat]

but i found another solution so it's fine i just wanted to make everyone aware of this issue

[timber jewel]

what's the solution?

[carmine moat]

no it's a little complicated to explain but yeah the momentum issue make me struggle to fix it

[carmine moat]

using a spring joint that move a really stiff physbone attached to the sphere so anyone can grab it but it won't do that slap-back i wanted when you release it

[timber jewel]

btw what would be the way to make it spin with dynamic bones?

[carmine moat]

everything to 0

if you put everything to 0 there's no force at all so it keep it momentum

[timber jewel]

it also get's slower for me, at least Iit looks like it does

yeah it does get slower too

[carmine moat]

yeah but not at the same way and it feel like it stop slowing at some point

[timber jewel]

but it takes more time

[carmine moat]

yup

you can have the same result with momentum to 1000000000 in debug mode

[timber jewel]

how would you even put it at 100000? xD

[carmine moat]

in debug mode

[timber jewel]

interesting

[carmine moat]

it's called spring in debug

[timber jewel]

that's probably worth to make a canny for xD

[carmine moat]

but even with momentum to 100000 you will see it doesn't work the same way as DB at all and the more bone you have the worse it gets

[timber jewel]

lol, they actually get slower really similar xD

[carmine moat]

ok with momentum > 1 and gravity unity crash XD

[timber jewel]

it's just that phys bones move around a whole lot why doing so

[timber jewel]

sometimes it does yeah

I got them to behave really similar @carmine moat, you wanna see?

the look mostly the same

[carmine moat]

me to i just put some stiffness for the last bones and it works well enough

[timber jewel]

I used immobile

So this is how it looked before: https://youtu.be/XwhmQJJlp4U

[carmine moat]

okay i see it works too hehe

[timber jewel]

and this is how I got them to work the same way:
https://streamable.com/yjogj1

[carmine moat]

yeah but with immobile that strong it will be completely stiff no ?

[timber jewel]

you can also use lower immobile values

[carmine moat]

yup

okay so now there's only one issue i need to fix and it seem not possible... transform animation of physic bones XD

[timber jewel]

just check IsAnimated lol

[carmine moat]

not really

[timber jewel]

wdym?

[carmine moat]

can we vocal together it will be easier to show x3

[timber jewel]

sure

just call me when you are ready

[carmine moat]

yup

i just setup an animation to show you

[final ferry]

[carmine moat]

so there's an issue with the animation of physic bones, the animation of a transform wouldn't work if your phys bone don't have a pull parameter > 0.
here's my canny about it

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1188-transform-animation-on-phys-bones-rely-on-pull-parameter

[sand vale]

Is there a way to test/move physbones with my mouse in the editor?

[warm cedar]

Yes, use a camera and tag it as "Main camera"

then press play

You can also translate (move) the avatar in the scene view, to test physbones

(While in play mode)

[vestal vigil]

will you be able to grab players by moving their root bone as a physbone?

[timber jewel]

idk try it out xD

Moving your whole Avatar might be hard, but you could make it so people could rotate you xD

Yay, turn speed in desktop mode is based on your frame rate again :/
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1181-turn-speed-in-desktop-mode-is-based-on-frame-rate-again

[limber quartz]

It looks to only be the case if you uncap though? Otherwise having it match the refresh rate of my monitor seems fine.

[timber jewel]

hm I never really go below 60 in desktop, so it's hard to test

[raven laurel]

you can always set limit in launch options tho

then test it

[timber jewel]

true

I forgot about that

interesting, it seem to only effect your turn speed when you have those higher frame rates

updated the canny post

[turbid saffron]

This regression is back?

[near grove]

If open beta could be on the same network as live then that would be fun to be able to play with friends that can’t go on open beta bc they don’t want to and stuff.

[timber jewel]

it would also probably create a tone of problems

[near grove]

Yeah

[limber quartz]

Speaking of regressions, seems very likely there could be some performance regressions as well. During CM the other day, I came across some nasty hitches I've never really encountered during CM before. Was also our first time being able to test the current AD OB in an 80 player instance as well. Previously we had to hold off on it due to the audio bug that was rampant on it, but thankfully the audio issue seems to have been resolved as I hadn't come across it at all during the meetup aside from one minor instance where it popped for like a small moment.

Performance regression I was talking about.

[near grove]

How is your day blackrat?

[timber jewel]

so far it has been good xD

[near grove]

Lol 😂

Life feels quick I felt like I was 4 years old just yesterday lol 😂

[limber quartz]

I will say though, it is very nice when a lot of people are loading in all at once (like when a lot of people are joining into the world) and things no longer hitch during that period of time.

[timber jewel]

interesting, when I help a friend updating his Avatar to Phys Bones he had performance issues in VR when ever we were testing it, I thought he might just have something open which he normally doesn't. Maybe there actually are performance issues with the current beta?

[near grove]

From me going from 4 years old to 15 it was a crazy journey

I wonder when physbones will be in the live version

I’m excited for it

[hazy linden]

I was also at the community meetup and had the same performance issues.
Im also on a ryzen 3900x that has 12 cores so if physbones are heavily multicored, it shouldnt be them causing the issues

[timber jewel]

hmmmm

someone should probably open a canny

[hazy linden]

Yeah, I was thinking of making one soon if no one else does

[near grove]

The bad thing that would come out from physbones being in the live version would be nsfw avatars

[hazy linden]

But right now Im making one for a seperate bug where collision checks dont get counted correctly if a collider is used by more than 1 component

[limber quartz]

>>Maybe there actually are performance issues with the current beta?

Could potentially be the case yeah. Gonna make a canny for it just in case.

[timber jewel]

good, I hope devs can make some performance tests

[near grove]

Physbones wouldn’t be a good idea being on the live version for quest bc of nsfw avatars. There are a lot more kids on quest than pc.

But overall I think physbones would be great bc of hair movements and etc

[timber jewel]

this has nothing to do with the topic of this conversation

[jovial sedge]

Block and report people doing stuff they shouldn't be lol

[near grove]

😂

[jovial sedge]

Why gate a feature off for something like that

especially considering Quest might have less dumpsterfire performance with physbones :^)

[near grove]

Wdym

[jovial sedge]

Quest already struggles with fps

[near grove]

Yeah..

Doesn’t vrchat cap at 30 fps??

For quest

[shrewd estuary]

no

[near grove]

Hmm

[shrewd estuary]

it's the unoptimized content that's dragging it down to that

[hazy linden]

Vrc caps at whatever fps the headset supports. For quest, that's 72 fps in general.
Just vrc can be an intense game because of the user content, so it usually doesnt reach that

[near grove]

There is a possible way to allow it to always cap at 72 fps but the side effects can cause damage

[limber quartz]

https://vrchat.canny.io/open-beta/p/1188-likely-performance-regressions-in-the-current-avatar-dynamics-open-beta

[hazy linden]

Ty for creating it! You should also probably post it in the meetup discord for people to see Nevermind, you just did that

[near grove]

The storage can affect your vrchat fps most of the time

Also I normally turn off 120 fps cap and it works a good amount of the time

Sometimes when I use or have avatars that have a really high amount of mb I sometimes remove them or don’t use them so my fps drops

The higher the mb can cause your game to sometimes lag

[hazy linden]

This is a topic for #quest-general, not open beta

[near grove]

I just figured this out lol

[near grove]

Alr

[hazy linden]

Found a bug with collision checks https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1188-collision-checks-arent-counted-accurately-if-a-collider-is-used-by-multiple

[timber jewel]

oh gosh unity in light mode

[hazy linden]

I know, im a monster

[timber jewel]

as long as you don't use discord in light mode everything is fine

[hazy linden]

I dont, thank god

For some reason, unity is like the only program I like in light mode

[timber jewel]

your eyes will be thankful

I'm honestly surprised by how many new cannys were made for 1188, I really didn't expect so many new problems to come up.

[last viper]

Big changes cause big issues

[hazy linden]

I would bet it's not new problems mostly, it's just people reacting to the news of a release candidate being potentially soon ™️. So it's a rush to get bugs reported

[timber jewel]

yeah, it's mostly old issues which were just now discovered

[wet bluff]

are you on windows 11?

[timber jewel]

she is not

I am though xD

[wet bluff]

also wait, his cpu is thermal throttling at 32% usage

[muted brook]

ouch

[wet bluff]

me too lmao, having to make sure the right windows are on top and fullscreen is annoying

fpsVR do make it easy though

[reef vault]

That something that helps with frames?

[timber jewel]

not really, it's just a tool to measure your performance

[wet bluff]

yes, it has a windows 11 section that ensures your currently running games are focused, so they are prioritized by windows scheduler

[wet bluff]

they snuck in a total chad feature for windows 11 users

[limber quartz]

She* and yeah, I'm still on Win10 :v

[timber jewel]

oh fuck I'm sorry

I forgot

[wet bluff]

i forgor 💀

but ya if you minimize steamvr or vrchat you will see your cpu frame times slowly get larger until you crash

not fun

but @limber quartz it looks like you don't have good enough cooling on your cpu... is it a beefy laptop?

[small surge]

Might wanna do something about that temp, its definatly throttling 100c isnt healthy

[wet bluff]

Hopefully not; not much you can do to cool a laptop

[limber quartz]

beefy PC*
GPU: RTX 3080
CPU: i7-10700k

Probably some seating or thermal paste issue. I'm not sure.

[small surge]

very similar to my pc except half the temp

[wet bluff]

ayy it's an ez fix

that's gonna be satisfying, getting all those frames back just with some thermal paste

[hazy linden]

It'll only help so much. The issue wasnt the throttling necessarily, it was this beta performing much worse compared to live.

[limber quartz]

☝️

I usually don't have these kinds of perf issues during a hard capped instance.

[hazy linden]

Even with the potential thermal paste/seating issues, she only noticed the throttling issues on this beta. If previous meetups were causing them, then I assume she would have noticed

[limber quartz]

I've alerted our residential benchmarker (@/Table) about the issue. Only problem is trying to organize a large group like that again and they were unsure if updates would be hold off on anything by next meetup. 🤔

[wet bluff]

ya I'm not too surprised large lobbies suffer from lag; with everyone being able to collide with everyone, that's a CPU nightmare

[limber quartz]

Mmmmh, but getting hitches like that is not common at all for me.

I've gone to Loner instances before and performed better then that.

[hazy linden]

Turning off collisions/pausing interactions atleast for myself, didnt do anything for cpu frametime. It was just as bad.
And my ryzen 3900x cpu has 12 cores, 24 threads and physbones are supposedly super multi-cored

[wet bluff]

hmm, so I haven't messed with PB with others very much yet, is there an option to disable seeing interactions between other people?

[hazy linden]

Yes, there's a button on the launch pad of the quick menu to just pause all interactions, even your own.

[wet bluff]

oh ok, so that button disables ALL interactions

cool

ya then I believe yall; would not be the first time we've seen random performance loss lol

[hazy linden]

Yeah, we'll have to see what it is.
It's kinda weird since the OSC beta also had a similar, but not as bad, performance regression that was fixed before it got pushed to live. And now we're having another performance regression with this beta

[silver ledge]

might be that your vram got hammered pretty well in that instance too. you can basically see it increasing/decreasing all time when you turned around, meaning it is potentially swapping out some texture files into your normal ram. A friend of mine made a post about that as well if your are curious: https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/texture-size-limit-as-a-setting

[hazy linden]

It is probably related, but Community Meetups always have 80 person full instances that get close to filling up vram. It's just that previous ones that were on live performed much better than this recent one that was held on the AD beta

[limber quartz]

But I've never had hitches as bad as that on Live before though.

[wet bluff]

what was the average performance rank of that meetup?

[hazy linden]

Meetups require medium or better

[limber quartz]

[wet bluff]

ok ya that's definitely not normal lag lol

[silver ledge]

yeah, i feel you.i guess that strong hitches you had are a result of multiple factors at once

[wet bluff]

other people have been noticing worse performance though, so it's definitely not just sal

sal just had it bad in that video

[limber quartz]

A few people in the meetup discord brought it up as well.

[silver ledge]

well xD guess the only option to properly test that is to have such a full lobby again. Or once they push it to live some events will test it out naturally

[timber jewel]

or for the devs to do some testing

[limber quartz]

[wheat fjord]

For some reason a physbone that was working prior to the two last updates doesn't work with the same settings as before

it doesn't move at all

It's strange cause it moves in unity

[timber jewel]

are you using the latest SDK?

[wheat fjord]

Yes

[timber jewel]

what are the Phys Bone settings?

[wheat fjord]

gotta double check one sec

.7 on pull

.1 on spring

[timber jewel]

just send a screenshot xD

[timber jewel]

do they not move when they have collision or when you move?

or both

[wheat fjord]

they were moving before now they don't. It's not suppossed to collide but it doesn't even if I set it on or not

[timber jewel]

hm

they don't even move a tiny bit?

[wheat fjord]

not even a bit, I alter the settings and nothing happens no matter what I change

[timber jewel]

so they move in unity but not in VRChat it self?

[wheat fjord]

They move in unity the same with way no matter what setttings I use but in vrc I get nothing no matter what

[timber jewel]

hm

are they shown when you turn on the overlay?

ingame

[wheat fjord]

it shows the phys bone there but it doesn't move

[timber jewel]

that's really weird

I mean your immobile is kinda high, but it should still move at least a little bit

[small surge]

immobile is abit high, try it very low see if they move

[wheat fjord]

I set it at 0

same result

those were the settings it worked at before

[timber jewel]

can you show us the hierarchy?

[wheat fjord]

Its a single bone

I can't show the hieararchy but it is a single bone

[timber jewel]

well, that's why it doesn't move then

[wheat fjord]

doesn't matter whether a endpoint is specified though

I've already tried making an endpoint

still get the same result

It never needed an endpoint before

[timber jewel]

how does the bone show up in scene view?

[wheat fjord]

as a capsule with the blue bellshaped angle at the bottom

[timber jewel]

hm

could you still send a screenshot please?

what is it attached to?

/ what should it move?

[wheat fjord]

it's attached to a mesh with bones, object isn't turned on because it uses constaints, getting it to show in unity is a pain

[timber jewel]

hm okay

just out of curiosity, when you turn on the Phys Bone overlay in game, the blue collision capsule and the white line in the middle are completely static?

[wheat fjord]

yes they do not move

[timber jewel]

hm okay, then I'm kinda clueless ngl

is the bone animated?

[wheat fjord]

no

[timber jewel]

then I have 0 ideas left

One thing, have you tried removing the script and adding a completely new one?

[wheat fjord]

yes

[timber jewel]

hm, maybe someone else has any ideas?

[wheat fjord]

will it not move at all if animated?

[timber jewel]

the bone transform or the PhysBone script?

[wheat fjord]

physbone, if I am turning on the physbone script with an animation

[timber jewel]

if you want to animate the bone transform you need to enable Is Animated, the Phys Bone script it self sadly can't be animated :/

[timber jewel]

turning the script on & of works fine

[wheat fjord]

do I need to check isanimated for that

[timber jewel]

just animating the values it self wont work

nope

Is Animated is really just there if you want to animate the bone position aka the transform

[wheat fjord]

then this still makes no sense

[timber jewel]

yeah I really have no clue why tf it isn't working

for you

[wheat fjord]

Yeah even tried making extra game object, changing parenting. It will not move no matter what

I have a similar object also uses contraints it moves just fine

Hierarchy is also the same with this object too

[hazy geode]

I have a dieing feeling

that

the update is going to be out starting from here to the end of this week.

Just a guess.

[wheat fjord]

Gotta be a release candidate first

[muted bloom]

The release candidate usually doesn’t last more than a day

[timber jewel]

yup

depends on how good it works

[warm cedar]

Better private the broken avis lol

[wind talon]

I think others have pointed this out, but we can't consider this a perf regression if you're thermal throttled (which, at 100C, you absolutely are)

Most (if not all) other profiling has shown a pretty massive reduction in frametime with PB

[acoustic meteor]

Just realized tupper said it isn't exactly a release candidate so now I have to really prepare my avatars for physbones.

[wind talon]

I've had an avatar dynamics branch on my avatar project git that I've been working off of lol

[timber jewel]

Hm weird, other people also said they felled like the performance was worse though

[wind talon]

To be blunt, "people said X" isn't enough to override months of profiling. :V

[acoustic meteor]

I should really backup the open beta so I can swap between the installs easier. I have so many avatars to work on.

[wind talon]

Just use git

[timber jewel]

yup, git is great

[warm cedar]

Sorry to go off topic but I fixed all my cherubs! (yaay)

[acoustic meteor]

I will try to use git at some point.

[wind talon]

github desktop makes it a ton easier. You don't have to upload, just keep the repo local (but back up your drive in other ways, like backblaze)

make commits any time you make major changes, branch off for betas, merge in changes you want to keep from betas, etc etc.

[timber jewel]

Hm yeah kinda true, I suppose you have also done profiling for 1188 so yeah

[acoustic meteor]

^

[sullen elk]

My performance has been fine for all of my avatar dynamics testing.
But also there isn't enough PC players to test with to really see.

[topaz void]

mhmm

[warm cedar]

Mine wasn't, I did only lag once but it was another one of those elitists who like to overuse components

y'know the ones, 400+ mat slots, 8 skinned mesh renderers, etc

Had a lot of simulated hair and accesories, I enabled it and dropped nearly 40 frames!

[sullen elk]

Hm. I'm imagining it was one of those native 2000-4000 DB collision check models that exploded on conversion because of addition of hands and fingers.
Those are the types of avatars I'll have burned in the barrel of hidden avatars.

[warm cedar]

Meh I've warned enough creators, if someone's avi crashes entire lobbies and they're too lazy to fix it it's more or less their own issue.

[topaz void]

truee

[sullen elk]

They all must burn

[warm cedar]

I'm hoping for the day avis with obsessive amounts of material slots get burned.

[timber jewel]

Okay yeah I can't agree with worse performance xD

I just build & tested my world with 5 clients, with db on my avatar I had around 20 fps, and with phys bones I had 50 😅

(Switched between the ik beta and open beta)

[warm cedar]

Multithreading is doing it's magic

[timber jewel]

not just that, but in general Phys Bones run way better

[warm cedar]

Let's hope that we won't have to wait much longer to show the rest of vrchat our wacky creations lol

[timber jewel]

yessss

[warm cedar]

I mean, to my local timezone I can go to bed and wake up with a patch, they always release around 3 am here

[timber jewel]

same

I feel like the photon is mad at me

[warm cedar]

orrrr

nah jk

[timber jewel]

it probably didn't like me building & testing my world every 2 minutes with 4 clients

[warm cedar]

It just kinda went "that's enough buddy, that's. that's enough! buddy.

[timber jewel]

like, give me a warning okay? xD

no more testing performance for me then I guess

I just wanted to do one more test with DB meh

[hazy linden]

Then it may just be something happening in larger lobbies. We had 80 real people in a lobby and most people were having issues worse fps than normal.
My cpu should have been running better compared to a normal meetup, but it was far worse.

[timber jewel]

Hm not sure then tbh

That test also isn't really scientific though tbh.
To be actually sure you would need everyone in the same Avatar at the same position etc

One with DB on live and one on beta with PB

[limber quartz]

Mentioned this with @noble sluice and could try to organize 80 people together in his planck world for a more controlled test.

[timber jewel]

hmm I mean yeah we could do that

but isn't stuff like that more up to the devs then to players?

[limber quartz]

It wasn't so much low FPS I suppose as it was, frametime just absolutely going down the drain with hitching.

[timber jewel]

I would have loved to atleast conclude my own test, but Photon was no more testing for you

[hazy linden]

When the community manager is dismissing the claims, we kinda have to start profiling for ourselves

[timber jewel]

hm yeah

[limber quartz]

I don't disagree with @wind talon, but something else was up other than that as I've never had that sort of frametime hitch happen at a full community meetup before.

Just wanna be certain my assumptions are wrong before this thing ships.

As before Sunday, we never had a proper opportunity to test in an 80-player instance before. (Was blocked from doing so due to audio bug)

[timber jewel]

Depends on how much profiling they do for every beta update, I'm sure they will be doing at least some before it goes live

[limber quartz]

They've also got Table who provides plenty of benchmarking data for them and even they seemed concerned when I showed them the canny earlier.

[timber jewel]

hmm

it's at least worth investigating

[limber quartz]

They wanted to try organizing 80 ppl together in Planck tomorrow (Tuesday)

[hazy linden]

Vrc also doesn't do much profiling for larger lobbies. Updates have shipped before with performance regressions that were only found later in the week from large rp lobbies having issues

[hazy linden]

Hopefully it provides good data! I'd want to join if you guys need people at all

[timber jewel]

let me know when that is happening, or is there a discord where that will be organised?

[jaunty knot]

General question. Is there a good way to get the contact receiver to better shape like a semi sphere?
I'm trying to utilize the capsule shape, but it seems that if the radius is greater than the height it overtakes the height

sorry to detract from the performance discussion :x

[limber quartz]

I will have to let you know directly ^^;
I'll also try posting in here as well~

[timber jewel]

thanks ^^

[jaunty knot]

Essentially trying to make a button that utilizes the proximity receiver to press it

[timber jewel]

I don't think there really is :/

had the same issue earlier

[jaunty knot]

Dang, I'll have to just have an awkward amount of collider under the floor then i think

[timber jewel]

you could put a lot of small contact receivers next to each other xD

[timber jewel]

what is that for btw?

[jaunty knot]

Trying to make a footwork practice game thing

where you place your hands in the middle then kick out to individual buttons

and go between 6 different buttons

[timber jewel]

Ahhh sounds cool

[jaunty knot]

So in this situation you would hit the middle right button

[timber jewel]

Sounds fun

[hazy geode]

Avatar's should not brake...

Auto dynamic bone conversation

[warm cedar]

They do buddy, they do.

[hazy geode]

[small surge]

auto conversion on some avatars ingame are... interesting, seen some giant colliders

[warm cedar]

^

[hazy geode]

It needs some work then

Before it had in game auto conversation and SDK conversation

[warm cedar]

Conversation X,D

[hazy geode]

AYGWSHEH

[small surge]

Not likely these will be updated , old ones ive seen it on , like dirt old

[hazy geode]

I just got out of VR, my typing is scrambled

[timber jewel]

It mostly seems fine for me tbh

The auto conversion

Especially since the last beta

[small surge]

Had a few that their collider was bigger then the world, clicked and looked at stats, it was hiddious

[warm cedar]

nothing is perfect

although, this IS unity.

[hazy geode]

I'm confused

I tested the early beta

It auto converted fine

[jaunty knot]

its avatar to avatar

[hazy geode]

Avatar SDK replaced Dynamic bones with Physics bones with eass

[jaunty knot]

some will update fine some wont

[warm cedar]

Like cherubs, they are FUCKED.

[small surge]

its rare , not often you will see on thats totally messed up, but they stick out

[hazy geode]

Worked fine on my Taidum

[warm cedar]

They are fucked when I use them, And that's the official unitypackage

[hazy geode]

What broke?

[small surge]

If they are on a humanoid bone 🔨

[warm cedar]

cord physics go SGEUSHS

[hazy geode]

Cuz I have so much shit on my model. I'm not redoing it all unless VRChat upgrades to Unity 2020. (Even Better, Unity 2022)

In that case, then I'll 100% redo all my shit

Cuz then it's worth it

[small surge]

Redid 70 something avatars cause i might as well fix the radius to match it better, then a thin line

[hazy geode]

Would be so annoyed if I had to redo everything

Everything is animated, and most of my toggles have custom icons.

[warm cedar]

You most likely will have to, unity is a bitch

[timber jewel]

I mostly just turned off Is Animated for stuff which didn't need it and set some limits

So stuff doesn't clip through my body

[hazy geode]

My Quest avatar on the other hand

I optimized the shit out of it

It's medium performance, still has working toggles and everything. Still looks good visually.

I fixed it up to allow the import of Physic bones.

[warm cedar]

That's great

[hazy geode]

Thanks.

It's not hard when you take the time to learn how to optimize

[warm cedar]

all my public avis are medium, I am not part of the E-avatar group

[hazy geode]

Good

For Quest. Medium is the best you can get before it looks like Shit

For PC, Best you can get before it starts to look like shit is Good performance.

Sometimes Perfect, but rarely.

[mental marsh]

E

[bitter cliff]

Dynamic bones converstion is... interesting at times currently. Had clothing with dynabone cloth just balloon out because of colliders expanding and had jiggle go from 'just enough they don't look static' to 'I've used cheat engine to ramp up the jiggle physics to be 200% of DOA Xtreme Vollyball 3'

[solemn nexus]

can't wait for the live update, being able to have bones at a party and not lose 20fps sounds great

[mental marsh]

Ikr it’s going to be so fun

[slender ocean]

most my auto-converted bones dont even move lol, I think its the max angle

[wind talon]

For cases like that you're likely going to have to go back and reupload a version you've converted and then tweaked/fixed.

[near grove]

does anyone know when the open beta complete update is out?

[bright jungle]

when it's ready, generally

no ETA has been provided

[warm cedar]

Everytime tupper becomes active something is bound to happen

[hardy cave]

How will the phys-bone effect pc?

[open kite]

Performance boost of around 10 - 20x compared to Dynamic Bones

Even if worst case scenarios Phys Bones still perform over 10 times better than DB

[hardy cave]

Ohh will you be able to switch phys bone off?

[open kite]

For a while after release yeah

But that feature won't stay forever

You will be able to toggle off phys bones after the update for some time, but DB will be completely removed at some point

[hardy cave]

DB?

Ohh wait dynamic bones that sucks what

[open kite]

DB suck

They're extremely performance heavy and I'm glad we're leaving them behind for good

[hardy cave]

ah I thought dynamic bones looked more lively and nice I’m not too sure abt phys bones

[open kite]

You can get pretty much the exact same look

At this point phys bones offer more features than DB

[hardy cave]

ghhhh not too excited abt them being removed

[open kite]

I mean, it automatically converts all DB into Phys Bones as soon as the update hits

And by the time the DB toggle will be removed enough Avatars with properly set up Phys Bones will be uploaded and released to make a seemingless transition, that's the goal

[hardy cave]

I’m gonna hope they look better in live version then

[open kite]

They already look really good tho?

Unless you're talking about auto conversion

But that will never be 100 % accurate for all Avatars

[small surge]

If you never used radius on your dynbones, convertion not gonna add it for you (impossible to grab)

[open kite]

Phys Bones that are properly set up by hand have basically 0 visually difference to DB, if anything they offer a lot more freedom

Auto conversion kind of screws a lot of Avali avatars tho lmfao

[hardy cave]

^^ that’s what I’m not excited for

[small surge]

< phys bone with radius added in unity , auto converted that had no radius>

[open kite]

It's mainly because they have a wing bone right next to their hand

So when auto converted, they will always grab their wing bone when trying to grab anything, making it impossible to grab other people's bones and stuff

[sour epoch]

daily reminder that if you have a specific example where auto conversion looks totally wrong, please post in the canny with as many details as you can like the settings used

nothing about auto conversion is set in stone, if you want it to be better then they need more datapoints to work with

and before a lot of issues were because the simulation was completely different, but now with advanced integration, the auto conversion has the potential to match if the settings can be translated correctly

[open kite]

Oh yeah it's gotten a lot better

They've been doing a great job patching it up so far

[sullen elk]

Every time I hear complaints about phys bones I just look back and it’s the same thing as Av 2.0 creators clinging on to not go to Av 3.0

[sour epoch]

well, av3.0 didn't try auto converting from 2.0 😅

[sullen elk]

True, there’s even less reason to complain now

[open kite]

People will always complain lmao

Changes = Bad

Even if those changes are good

People fr complaining about a 20 times performance uplift

Cause they gotta learn a single new component which is almost exactly the same as DB

[formal breach]

they can live with their dynamic bones, i'll just use the autoconversion and they can suffer

[fallow rock]

But all the tools they use so they can click one button and everything is done for them will break. Now they actually have to learn something

[open kite]

Not gonna take long for new tools to arrive tbh

Wouldn't be surprised if Dread is already cooking smth up

[tacit slate]

imo, auto conversion should work in 8/10 cases and it would be good enough

no point in delaying feature because of dynamic bones backwards compatibly

[open kite]

Content breaking over time is just the nature of a game like this, it happens

Technology advances constantly and its not always guaranteed to be backwards compatible

[winged scarab]

Humans for you lmao, I know I am not any different. But it's better to be excited and look into the changes so that you know the benefits. But some people don't want to

[warm cedar]

Auto conversion only breaks when the user wasn't utilizing DB very well, or the DB was so god-awfully put together it was unstable to begin with

[near grove]

i'll take a new system thats mildly painful to use but incredibly optimized than a system thats easy to use but not optimized at all!

[timber jewel]

For me Phys Bones are way easier to use than Dynamic Bones, it so more organised and documented.

[molten aspen]

Gizmos are nice too.

[timber jewel]

yup

you actually see everything you do, which is especially useful for Limits

[molten aspen]

Dynamic Bones is like some script a dude made and put on the Unity Asset Store, heck the Neos developer even made their own "dynamic bone", although that is set up in runtime (like everything else in Neos). 😰

I wonder how much money the Unity Asset Store guy earned from VRChat users paying for it. xD

[modern flame]

It's been the #1 selling asset for years

The answer is probably enough money to drift for years

[bitter cliff]

Kind of making the assumption they know unity at all. Lot of people have bought one or multiple 30-40$ avatars off gumroad and now with the new system they might be broken with no understanding of how to fix them. Not saying it's a reason to not use avatar dynamics but it's easy to see why people would be upset. Especially if there is no guarantee the original author will upload a fixed version

[mossy python]

There is literally a fucking button to auto convert them in the SDK

There is no excuse to not use PhysBones

[warm cedar]

Sdk2 I don't wanna learn how to make decent functional avatars I wanna stay in defunctland!!! 😢

At some point the vrchat team will have to violently dropkick support for sdk2

[hazy geode]

[muted bloom]

Support was already dropped; that’s what deprecated means.

[warm cedar]

I'm talking full on deletion of avatars writer

like a full wipe.

[muted bloom]

Use it if you want to but it’s at your own risk

[warm cedar]

The only way to get people to do something, is to take the thing away right before there eyes most of the time

[hazy geode]

SDK 3 if anything is easier

[muted bloom]

They are not going to do that. They will stop accepting new uploads of SDK2. Old blueprints will either need to be replaced with SDK3 or just eventually bit rot like all the Unity 5.3 uploads that are still in.

There is no benefit to deleting blueprints

It’s not to say they will keep working forever. Once they can’t be updated with new versions of unity unless it’s converted to SDK3, the shaders will eventually bust

[mossy python]

I will say SDK2 was better for worlds but avatars? SDK3 easy

This is coming from someone who started with 3 for both

[muted bloom]

SDK2 was absolutely not better for worlds. Udon is an actual language, I don’t know how people handled triggers my brain just doesn’t work like that

[mossy python]

SDK3 is better for worlds because of all the functionality of Udon, but it also opens the window for horrible coding practices

[muted bloom]

My world’s were nothing but static models until Udon came along

[warm cedar]

That's on vrchat's end, if they can't supply us with the right tutorials that's on them

[mossy python]

In my experience 99% of SDK2 worlds outperform SDK3 worlds at least on the Quest side of things

[muted bloom]

That’s just because they simply weren’t scripted at all

An SDK3 world that also isn’t scripted is going to be the same way

[mossy python]

And again, this is coming from someone who actively works with and uploads SDK3 worlds with custom U# scripts and graphs

My point being

I feel like they shouldn’t have discontinued SDK2 worlds

Because it’s easier to learn and more performant most times

[bitter cliff]

Convo was literally about how it doesnt always convert properly and some users might not have the know how to tweak it but go off I guess

[muted bloom]

Do you want to make your Worlds with Triggers just download cyan triggers

[mossy python]

Nah I don’t have a need since I started with SDK3

But I have lots of legacy creators who prefer 2 and wish it was just still an option

[muted bloom]

SDK3 isn’t more laggy, people are just actually doing complex things now

Because you can’t on SDK2

[mossy python]

I’m aware

[dreamy skiff]

The HDS series worlds sorta did do complex things with SDK2

[mossy python]

But it again also leaves the door open for coding bugs that SHOULDNT lag but do

[muted bloom]

And how does having SDK2 as an option solve that door being open

[mossy python]

Great example: one of my favorite worlds runs flawlessly but due to a U# error, the master of the instance will get horrible stutters and frame drops into the 20s

[mossy python]

It solves it because this world is very basic in function and doesn’t have many complicated scripts running, all things that COULD work on SDK2

But that’s not an option, so instead it uses custom scripts that accidentally cause horrible problems

[muted bloom]

Then you could accomplish the same thing without SDK2. There is no benefit except you’re expecting some people will intentionally choose an outdated version instead of just grabbing something like Cyan Triggers. You shouldn’t be protecting users from themselves.

Giving people a reason not to update is the opposite of what you need to do lol

[mossy python]

I’m just saying the trigger system is faster to learn than Udon. If it ain’t broke and it’s quick to pick up and you don’t plan on making complicated scripts, it should be an option

Perhaps a future SDK3 Lite or something to the effect

[muted bloom]

I would not say this is true

[hazy geode]

SDK 3 if anything is easier

[muted bloom]

Maybe for some, not for everyone, certainly not for the majority. If you are learning either SDK2 or SDK3 as your first, SDK3 is easier. For both worlds and avatars, for most people.

[molten cobalt]

and like most people are just going to be dragging in prefabs that are people made so how easy it is to code is not much of a relevant factor for folks just trying to make chill bedrooms

[mossy python]

I was completely baffled by udon when I first picked up SDK3 for worlds

[muted bloom]

For the most basic user, “ just edit the proxy animations and rename them to not have the word proxy” is easier than using an animation overrider in SDK2 and filling up the slots

[timber jewel]

Any idea why this error occurs?

[mossy python]

I already said I agree that SDK3 avatars is better, just believe Udon is too complicated for noobies

[timber jewel]

for some reason only the last bone in the chain will move, all of the other ones are completely static, no mater what I do

[mossy python]

It took me far too long to set up teleporters and mirrors and there’s no way I could’ve done it without tutorials

[warm cedar]

I used to have one of these with my cherubs, fixed now, but assertion issues are internal script errors in C#

[timber jewel]

how did you fix it?

[warm cedar]

Sdk update...

Yeeeahhh.. I know..

I had something about epsilon

[timber jewel]

hm

[wind talon]

Rotated in the wrong direction, maybe?

Anyways, I've updated the docs for AD/PhysBones.

[warm cedar]

Waah!! God there he is again!

[wind talon]

Updated:
https://docs.vrchat.com/v2022.1.2/docs/physbones
https://docs.vrchat.com/v2022.1.2/docs/contacts

Pending update:
https://docs.vrchat.com/v2022.1.2/docs/permissions-and-settings

[warm cedar]

We're inching really close to a candidate now, aren't we?

[wind talon]

not really, I woke up really early and didn't have much to do 🙂

but also, maybe

who knows

[warm cedar]

Oh TUPPER Dammit! Stop it!

Well guess I'll fix all the broken cherubs I still have

[sullen elk]

I never fully understood how powerful curves were until recently

[timber jewel]

It's not getting better

[wind talon]

Seems like one of your curves is broken doc

[timber jewel]

hmm

would be nice to know which one xD

[wind talon]

sure would

but that's a unity assertion

not us

[small surge]

Had a few of those errors, not sure what its caused by, maybe a really wierd curve, have some thats small at start and end, but not the middle

[warm cedar]

will we get a beta for the group functionality, actually? since that was also on the roadmap

[timber jewel]

yeah some curves in the phys bone script created those errors for me

[solemn nexus]

I'm sure Tupper will let us know all about groups if there's an upcoming beta
It's his baby after all if I remember
Best bet is to not worry about it
It'll come when it comes, probably after they finish the main menu ui update

[warm cedar]

We'll see

[muted bloom]

I'd still disagree there. For a total newbie, a node based language like udon is easier to set up simple programs than doing the same with triggers and animators.

I'm talking learning either blind without prior unity experience

[timber jewel]

hmmm this will move fine with dynamic bones, but with phys bones only the last thing in the chain will move, any ideas?

I really don't get what the problem is

[dreamy skiff]

Think you missed a spot. This isn't true anymore

[timber jewel]

I found out why

It's because of this:
https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1187-small-bones-no-longer-move-at-all-with-physbones

[lyric ocean]

i think thats what multi child tipe is for

o wait thats a diferent one

[timber jewel]

yeah, that's also why only the bottom one moved

because it's bigger than the other ones

hope this will be fixed before a release

[timber jewel]

Maybe also add the same warning there is on the component, so that it should really only be used if the bone transforms are animated and that it is better to leave it disabled when not needed for better performance.

[next spire]

how do you display collision boxes in the newest release? can't find the option anymore

[timber jewel]

You mean the Avatar overlay ?

[plucky owl]

One thing I want added to physbones is update rate

[timber jewel]

I don't think that's something we will get

What is the update rate from Phys Bones btw?

[plucky owl]

believe it's the same as the defaults from dynamic bones which is 60

[next spire]

probably?

[plucky owl]

only reason for adding update rate would be to mimic the miles morales style for deforming

[timber jewel]

if so it's still just in the action menu

[next spire]

oh alright

[timber jewel]

miles morales? xD

[plucky owl]

from the spiderverse movie

[timber jewel]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh

oooof

xD

[plucky owl]

like looking like you're either lagging or a low frame rate character

[timber jewel]

yup, know I know what you mean xD

[lean raven]

That'd be so cool

https://youtu.be/Ad4T0gY62oM

It's be like this

[jaunty knot]

Was making a canny post and noticed my icon was extremely old and wrong.

How do I update it?
It doesn't match whats on Vrchat and the upload image button doesn't work :x

[timber jewel]

yeah that icon thing is kinda broken

[jaunty knot]

😢

[plucky owl]

https://feedback.vrchat.com/feature-requests/p/increase-the-update-rate-for-osc-parameters

[timber jewel]

at least you don't have it as bad as I do........

[jaunty knot]

D:

Mine was an avi I bought and then realized I didn't like it and never used it again D:

[plucky owl]

wait I found the post https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1181-update-rate-setting-for-physbones

[timber jewel]

I have to say this looks fucking hilarious xD

One question, when I allow friends to be able to interact with me, but they have their interaction set to Nobody they still can't interact with me, correct? Both need to enable interaction with each other for it to work.

[shrewd estuary]

yes

it should do that iirc

[timber jewel]

okay good, wasn't sure if it only was an, if I allow you, you can touch me, even if you don't want to

[shrewd estuary]

yeah both users need to have it allowed

[timber jewel]

the hand icon should be changed then tbh

[shrewd estuary]

change it back to the handshake, the handshake was helpful.

[timber jewel]

since just because the hand of someone is yellow, doesn't mean I can interact with them

[shrewd estuary]

make a canny for this

please

(i can't rn)

not feeling like logging into vrchat on my phone in public with people directly next to me

[timber jewel]

I think the best way would be to show the hand icon just like now if they allow me to interact, but show the handshake if we both allow to interact with each other.

[shrewd estuary]

yes

that sounds good

[timber jewel]

I mean Salbug made a canny about this ages ago xD

https://feedback.vrchat.com/open-beta/p/1184-interaction-icon-feedback-dynamic-swap-to-handshake-icon-when-perms-is-gran

[shrewd estuary]

how useful

[timber jewel]

let just hope for it to be implemented

[shrewd estuary]

if it doesn't then uhhh

:copium:

[raven laurel]

imo it would be cool

[shrewd estuary]

so upvote it

[timber jewel]

I mean just the hand alone is kinda useless ngl

since it doesn't really tell you if you can actually interact with them

you would still need to look in to your menu to see if you have allowed interaction with them

[shrewd estuary]

me hoping devs watched this conversation so far

[timber jewel]

idk they probably have other things to do xD

[shrewd estuary]

literally my first thought when i got into the new version of the dynamics beta was "why the fuck did they get rid of the handshake"

[timber jewel]

lol

[olive hare]

Do you think the AD update will be released later this month, early-late May, or early June? I just wanted to know what people's thoughts were

I'm just waiting for it to be Network-Compatible (which probably won't be until release-)

[hazy geode]

If you ask me, VRChat needs kinda what Neos has

Would be nice to actually hand people files

(for trusted people of course)

[muted bloom]

That’s the fun part

[hazy geode]

I'd like to take an image, or video, or unity package, and hand it to someone in game. Would be a nice VRC+ perk

Like hand it to them like a card

[olive hare]

I wish we could let certain people access private avatars, it'd me much easier to do commissions that way

[hazy geode]

Yeee

A Id whitelist

Allowing it to be uploaded under more than one account

[jade flicker]

Couldn't that be abused? With bad creators removing access after time

[olive hare]

Good point

[jade flicker]

Would being able to transfer avatars be better?

[bright jungle]

good lord no

inb4 people spreading malware

[hazy geode]

Good lord yes

[hazy geode]

"Trusted users"

[bright jungle]

people already run shady .exe files from randos in discord DMs

[olive hare]

Imagine handing someone a rickroll lmao

[hazy geode]

"safety settings"

Neos has it,

Why not VRChat

[bright jungle]

implying that trusted user rank means anything
implying people use the safety system

[shrewd estuary]

yo man download this
(totally not a virus.exe)

[jade flicker]

yup

[raven laurel]

neos is more of sandbox then game about chatting

[molten cobalt]

vrchat trusted rank does not mean they're trustworthy in the slightest

[olive hare]

Yea maybe just photos/videos/YouTube links

[shrewd estuary]

trusted users here can't actually be trusted with that kind of thing

[bright jungle]

being able to send arbitrary files ingame is so not a good idea imo

[hazy geode]

Omfg not what I meant.

Sjrjivnsnvks v

[shrewd estuary]

[molten cobalt]

there is no good way to establish actual trustworthy in this as a mechanical system in vrchat

and vrc plus would not be a suitable mechanism

[olive hare]

The ranking is more based on how much you played (and play time =/= trust)

[hazy geode]

I say one word incorrectly and I get instantly backlash. I'm on a phone, otherwise I'd love to give more

[muted bloom]

I don’t think Valve is going to permit FTP in a game on their platform

[shrewd estuary]

skill issue

[jade flicker]

too true, knew someone who got deranked and got trusted again. He did this five times lol, we all joked he was prestige 5 lol

[hazy geode]

What I'm saying is... For the the metaverse to be a metaverse, it needs to be a more open platform

You need to send files,

[jade flicker]

Do you though

Vrchat isn't the metaverse

[muted bloom]

Screw the Metaverse I don’t want one

[olive hare]

I wouldn't go for exe/zip files tho

[hazy geode]

With the input of "bad idea" you need to be safe using the internet all together.

[molten cobalt]

vrchat has never described itself as the metaverse

[hazy geode]

I could send a file

Right here

[olive hare]

again, videos and images

[hazy geode]

Right now

If you download it it's your fault

[molten cobalt]

yes and a chat mod would probably whack you on the head

[bright jungle]

1: this
2: being able to send files ingame is a terrible idea imo, and would lead to malicious use nigh-instantly

[olive hare]

We're trying to be reasonable not mean (or at least me)

[bright jungle]

In a public forum that's a lot easier to moderate in real time
where you don't have kids who will gladly run any .exe file you give them

[timber jewel]

Why not com back to the topic of this channel....
The open beta

[olive hare]

yea

[jade flicker]

I'd see it used for more harm than good, especially based on the toxic side of vrc

[jade flicker]

+1

[bright jungle]

also ye, beta

[olive hare]

^ this ^