tc-research

[regal agate]

the assassinaiton apl has trinkets in the item sublist

# Special Case Trinkets
actions.items=use_item,name=ashes_of_the_embersoul,use_off_gcd=1,if=(dot.kingsbane.ticking&dot.kingsbane.remains<=11)|fight_remains<=22
actions.items+=/use_item,name=algethar_puzzle_box,use_off_gcd=1,if=dot.rupture.ticking&cooldown.deathmark.remains<2|fight_remains<=22
# Fallback case for using stat trinkets
actions.items+=/use_items,slots=trinket1,if=(variable.trinket_sync_slot=1&(debuff.deathmark.up|fight_remains<=20)|(variable.trinket_sync_slot=2&(!trinket.2.cooldown.ready|!debuff.deathmark.up&cooldown.deathmark.remains>20))|!variable.trinket_sync_slot)
actions.items+=/use_items,slots=trinket2,if=(variable.trinket_sync_slot=2&(debuff.deathmark.up|fight_remains<=20)|(variable.trinket_sync_slot=1&(!trinket.1.cooldown.ready|!debuff.deathmark.up&cooldown.deathmark.remains>20))|!variable.trinket_sync_slot)```

so what you would need to do is

[maiden cargo]

ahh i could change that whole line basically for trinket1 basically

[regal agate]

essentially copy the ashes condition.

actions.items=use_item,name=ashes_of_the_embersoul,use_off_gcd=1,if=(dot.kingsbane.ticking&dot.kingsbane.remains<=11)|fight_remains<=22```
and modify it
```yaml
actions.items+=/use_item,name=verdant_gladiators_badge_of_ferocity,use_off_gcd=1,if=(dot.kingsbane.ticking&dot.kingsbane.remains<=11)|fight_remains<=22```

then add it back to the list

and make it in a copy statement

[maiden cargo]

alright i'm gonna give this a shot then - and just sim with a custom APL entirely

[regal agate]

so if you want to compare it

[maiden cargo]

yeah i dont mind running separate sims entirely

[regal agate]

you copy paste the apl

so /simc
copy the apl in

and then add the copy statement below

copy="new trinket use"
# Special Case Trinkets
actions.items=use_item,name=ashes_of_the_embersoul,use_off_gcd=1,if=(dot.kingsbane.ticking&dot.kingsbane.remains<=11)|fight_remains<=22
actions.items+=/use_item,name=verdant_gladiators_badge_of_ferocity,use_off_gcd=1,if=(dot.kingsbane.ticking&dot.kingsbane.remains<=11)|fight_remains<=22
actions.items+=/use_item,name=algethar_puzzle_box,use_off_gcd=1,if=dot.rupture.ticking&cooldown.deathmark.remains<2|fight_remains<=22
# Fallback case for using stat trinkets
actions.items+=/use_items,slots=trinket1,if=(variable.trinket_sync_slot=1&(debuff.deathmark.up|fight_remains<=20)|(variable.trinket_sync_slot=2&(!trinket.2.cooldown.ready|!debuff.deathmark.up&cooldown.deathmark.remains>20))|!variable.trinket_sync_slot)
actions.items+=/use_items,slots=trinket2,if=(variable.trinket_sync_slot=2&(debuff.deathmark.up|fight_remains<=20)|(variable.trinket_sync_slot=1&(!trinket.1.cooldown.ready|!debuff.deathmark.up&cooldown.deathmark.remains>20))|!variable.trinket_sync_slot)```

[maiden cargo]

ok sweet, i'm gonna delete the part about <= 11 though

cause i wanna use it RIGHT when KB goes out

it lasts 15 (and kb lasts 14)

[regal agate]

oh yes, feel free to modify it as you want

[maiden cargo]

ok thanks so much man

[regal agate]

if you run into issues, just ask back

[maiden cargo]

ok sure thing

Yeah looks like I got it right...

And it's just worse anyway

By about 4.4% less than Ashes

Well that was fun to do anyway, thanks for the help @regal agate

[late oar]

so this may have been asked and i checked the pins, but whats the best way to sim for dungeons

[finite sparrow]

Dungeonslice instead of Patchwerk, and you may want to disable most raid buffs

[late oar]

okay cool.

[marsh sluice]

Hi, i can't find an answer in ctrl-F, is there a way to add vantus buff in simc? or a thing like we enchant an item +500vers (enchant=500vers not working)?

[regal agate]

you can add a enchant with 500vers to an item as you mentioned

the easiest way is to add a shirt, given that you don't need to worry about your items
can just paste your /simc in advanced sim and copy the below in after

copy="+500vers"
shirt=test,enchant=500vers```

example simulation

[marsh sluice]

Thank you, working perfectly!

[wheat kiln]

Is Raidbots broken right now (or am I broken)? My 489 Vault Head is simming 9k lower than a 483. Both with activated Enchant. Furthermore my Quicksim (5min no buffs) is saying 114k DPS, if I add Hunters Mark its 159k DPS.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7ucD6ScD3535VxsVAWz1bo GV Sim
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8du24LLpM4cz9Q5R78Nkjm W HM
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cjs8rDPw8zMJdRCzotHQsA No HM

Ah, was in the wrong specc for Quicksim. But the issue with the low simming Head is still there.

[finite sparrow]

Your helm is making you loss 4 set tier bonus

You can click the + symbol to catalyze it in your top gear inventory

[wheat kiln]

Omg thank you ❤️

[dusky gyro]

i was poking around to try and find some sort of "intro to simming yourself" and discovered that this channel's pin has a link to https://www.ravenholdt.net/sim-yourself/ which says "no posts found." do we have any updated links?

[finite sparrow]

maybe this https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/how-to-sim-your-wow-character-a-guide-to-raidbots

[dusky gyro]

are there any class/spec specific things to be aware of that wouldn't be covered in a generic guide? that's the main thing i was looking for

[finite sparrow]

Rogues can sim Dungeonslice instead of patchwerk to help make gearing/talent decisions for keys (not every spec supports dungeonslice)

It's a 2 minute boss + 4 minutes of trash packs with variable size and duration, with some downtime, restealths between them but some chainpulls also

[dusky gyro]

haha it's like you read my mind

[finite sparrow]

nowadays (at least for Outlaw) I almost exclusively sim 1t patchwerk for raid (full raidbuffs) or dungeonslice (no raidbuffs except Lust) for aoe/keys

there are not many reasons to deviate from sim results except for some trinkets like Cataclysmic Signet Brand depend on kill timers to actually look good, and the value some talents like Deft maneuvers depend on your pull sizes, which is a little bit arbitrary

[dusky gyro]

makes sense. what's 1t patchwork mean? 1 boss?

[finite sparrow]

yea 1 target.

Council of dreams could be 2 target patchwerk if you really wanted to sim for that I suppose

[dusky gyro]

can't believe you mentioned it, literally my least favorite fight lmao

tyvm for the breakdown though!

[finite sparrow]

[dusky gyro]

also, am i just blind or is there no way to get pawn stat weights without running the "stat weights" tool on raidbots

[finite sparrow]

i'm not sure, stat weights are a bit outdated for modern wow

[dusky gyro]

what's the modern way to gear compare in-game?

[finite sparrow]

most people have generally stopped using them

[dusky gyro]

gotcha, all raidbots all the time?

[finite sparrow]

raidbots top gear all day

[dusky gyro]

bummer but understood

[tender mauve]

From a little write-up/PSA thing I wrote w/ one of my previous raid leads back in Shadowlands:

FWIW you can use stat weights to spot items that could be potential upgrades, as long as you understand:

• Pawn is not an accurate way of determining if an item is an upgrade.
• If Pawn says an item is an upgrade then that means it's worth running a Top Gear sim with it.
• To be clear - the people who follow Pawn/stat weights blindly are either uninformed or lazy. The only reason you should do this is to reduce how frequently you are redoing your Top Gear / Droptimizer sims.
• A set of stat weights are only valid for the exact combination of items, enchants/gems, talents, and consumables you were using when you ran the sim. In other words, if you change any property of your character, then you need to redo your stat weights from scratch. This includes:
  • Changing which phial/weapon runes you're using.
  • Swapping virtually any non-utility talent (e.g. Numbing -> Atrophic is fine).
  • If you wanna be as rigorous as possible:
    • Replacing a Normal raid drop w/ it's Heroic/Mythic version.
    • Spending a bunch of crests on non-trivial upgrades, like veteran 1/8 -> 8/8, Hero 1/6 -> 6/6 etc.

IMO the best use case for stat weights is when you're 483 ilvl and want to farm keys for pieces that will optimize your secondary stats, but Droptimizer is usually a better way of doing this anyway

[raw knoll]

tldr: use droptimizer from dungeons & raids to look at upgrades from your current gear.

[dusky gyro]

awesome, tyvm. this is pretty close to how i'm using it, as a way to minimize my sims. i don't get a ton of upgrades and i don't particularly spam dungeons for upgrades

[wind pond]

@fleet thorn Simulation failed am i doing something wrong ?

[fleet thorn]

probably, but it's okay. I had a feeling this would happen, haha. I ran yours just in case

Here you go:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/g6uJuR3HJREamxCa2mk8U6

[wind pond]

@fleet thorn Thank you but i still dont understand

should i keep using versa flask and buzzing runes

and potion of ultimate power

[fleet thorn]

The bottom of that where it just says your name is what you are without anything on.

This sim is showing that for dungeon slice, you should use Phial of Tepid Vers and Whetstones (the attack power weapon oils)

[wind pond]

wtf is static empowerment

😄

[fleet thorn]

Static Empowerment and Charged Isolation aren't good for us

they're really just usually not good in general because they require you to Stand Still / be 10 yd away from all allies

[wind pond]

ahh i see

what about charged isolation

ahh both of them i see

now i understand how it works

i will use Whetstones instead of buzzing runes

Thank you so much @fleet thorn and @regal agate ofc

[warm zinc]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e1jhnEsquYBGPybtD7aSEY
could someone explain why taking swift death instead of ephemeral bond (every other talent was the same) results in a dps downgrade?

[proven sparrow]

It seems like theres some error with the symbols logic whenever youre not using dust and you have swift death specced. It shouldnt be a dps downgrade but its also not really a dps increase

As you would still want your symbols to line up with you 2 minutes you cant really be using it at 25/50/75/110 which you would with swift death. You just need to hold it which kinda defeats the point of the talent to begin with

Or you could delay your 2 min for it if you know the fight length and youre not losing a cast because of it. In a simulation setting that would probably mean a lot of iterations that are ~4:20 or something like that would end up significantly lower because they dont get a good second burst of and probably be lower overall

[hollow wraith]

Heard a rumor that haste is useless now? Is this personal preference or is it true that haste is (as they said) detrimental to casting because it speeds up attacks faster than energy regen can maintain? I can see both sides, curious if there's a math answer.

[warm zinc]

The gcd for rogue is not affected by haste

[hollow wraith]

I'm behind in terms, gcd?

I'm assuming not greatest common denominator >.>;

[warm zinc]

Global cooldown, the delay between your spell casts

[hollow wraith]

Gotcha! Okay cool, I didn't think so, tysm!

[regal agate]

rogue has a static 1 second gcd, the only spec to modify it is outlaw with adrenalin rush which lowers it to 0.8.
haste does increase attack speed, tick rate of bleeds and energy regeneration,
so how valuable it is will depend on how well the spec can benefit from the mentioned.

[finite sparrow]

the value of haste is different for each specialization, it is broadly not "useless" -- such as for outlaw, you won't stack 6000 haste but it tends to be decent until a certain point

[hollow wraith]

Coming from assassin standpoint mainly, and saw an incredible build of mostly mastery and crit with 0% haste which raised the question. They hit for 848k with a Kingsbane, chef's kiss, but then it led down a rabbit hole of why 0% haste. Obviously it's working for them, or maybe not because we were discussing JUST that one hit.

[finite sparrow]

the "math answer" is letting raidbots determine what haste pieces to wear and not think too much about it

[regal agate]

^ it also considers talents, gear, fight style and other factors

for more extreme stat distributions, both outlaw and subtlety are usually the specs which keep haste on the lower end
while assassinaiton likes a mix of stats

[hollow wraith]

I'll never turn down a good guidance bot but I do hesitate to lean too heavily on it. Raw math is def preferred.

Mix of stats: that's where I'm testing and curious, because especially in PvP, stacking crit is another fair question with the universal 50% reduction.

[regal agate]

i don't think simc has official pvp support by now

so using it as a tool for pvp gearing is not recommended

[hollow wraith]

Also good to know x.x

[regal agate]

pvp uses diffrent modifiers for spells

so e.g. for subtlety for example

how much damage you deal with finishing moves vs. combo point builder can vary a lot

[finite sparrow]

Modern wow cannot use "raw math" to determine the value of stats

[regal agate]

besides that, the goal of pvp is burst damage

the apls, even for pve are not designed around dealing as much damage as possible in a very narrow/specific time frame

there are infrequently people who do want to add support for pvp to simc

but, unless something changed very recently, they never lead somewhere

but if you are familiar with c++ and want to start/approach it.
The simc discord server is likely happy to help you learning the codebase or answer questions

[hollow wraith]

I haven't seen a whole lot of consistent PvP support, and most of the questions I come across are PvP related. We noticed that the original guides from WoWhead or Icyveins for PvP are feeling kinda outdated since the nerfs/buffs changes and shy of telling someone to stand in an arena and take a few hits, we're having some difficulty measuring where to give and take in the stats.

Back to original question though, haste on gcd was my initial confusion. Like I've done rogue since WotLK and I didn't THINK that was a thing but I wanted to check and calculate accordingly if I missed something lol

Actually since BC. But I haven't touched since WotLK and came back in DF season 2 >.> Some shock factors that I'm still trying to work out. I do see that it's incredibly difficult to raw math the newer stuff for instance, but even a ballpark is nice.

[regal agate]

haste is logically seen as useless in pvp

mastery and versatiliy both give you direct damage (on sub/assassination)

a lot of the benefits of haste can be played around

e.g. you can pool energy, and unless you are energy constrained during coodlowns don't need extra income

[hollow wraith]

This has been awesome and very helpful, thank y'all ❤️ ^^

[regal furnace]

Hello dear people, please tell me. do you use Hekilli with the outlaw rogue?

[raw knoll]

wrong channel mate. #outlaw

[regal agate]

How to compare Tier set Bonuses:

• copy your /simc to advanced sim.
• paste the following below.
  Note: This does not include talent changes, which have the potential to impact tier set vlaue.

copy="No Tier set"
set_bonus="tier31_4pc=0"
set_bonus="tier31_2pc=0"
set_bonus="tier30_4pc=0"
set_bonus="tier30_2pc=0"
set_bonus="tier29_4pc=0"
set_bonus="tier29_2pc=0"

copy="T31 - Season 3"
set_bonus="tier31_4pc=1"
set_bonus="tier31_2pc=1"

copy="T30 - Season 2"
set_bonus="tier31_4pc=0"
set_bonus="tier31_2pc=0"
set_bonus="tier30_4pc=1"
set_bonus="tier30_2pc=1"

copy="T29 - Season 1"
set_bonus="tier30_4pc=0"
set_bonus="tier30_2pc=0"
set_bonus="tier29_4pc=1"
set_bonus="tier29_2pc=1"```

[noble pendant]

it also doesn't include any of the bugs that absolutely exist from those tier sets after the rework

[regal agate]

I did quickly put up simulations for all 3, but it is advised to do your own or ask/discuss in the specific spec channel.
Note: There is potential for specific bonuses to benefit from talent changes that are not included.

-- IMPORTANT: ALL TIER SETS WILL BE ADJUSTED, SO YOU CAN PICK THE ONE THAT SOUNDS THE MOST FUN TO YOU --

🟢 Assassination Single Target
🟢 Assassination Dungeon Slice

🟡 Outlaw Single Target
🟡 Outlaw Dungeon Slice

🔵 Subtlety Single Target
🔵 Subtlety Dungeon Slice

Links to the vote can be found In this post.

[regal agate]

[noble pendant]

"so any bonuses you choose will be tuned to be as strong as any others."

[regal agate]

can you link the post?

[noble pendant]

the blue post lmao

the last paragraph

[regal agate]

that sounds like a lot of work

[livid lynx]

Its also probabyl a lie

[noble pendant]

yeah I mean the whole point though is to pick the gameplay, not the power

kinda confused why we're simming the sets when they've already announced that they're going to tune them

regardless of how the implementation actually functions given all the specs got reworked

seems really pointless

[regal agate]

my bad. I did not see this post/detail.

[west prism]

They would have to redesign the symbols set for sub. Seems really strong for shadowcraft, and do you even vote for the same set at that point?

[regal agate]

Th problem with t30 (season 2) for subtlety would be that the refresh behavior of the tier set.
We still look at only Pandemic refresh with diffrent pandemic timers for the Tier set instance of symbols and a regular cast

[proven sparrow]

Yes unless they change how the 2p from aberrus works for sub its going to feel terrible to play with now after the rework

[rugged pumice]

T31 tier is fun to play t29 was just boring.

[gaunt grove]

Yo @regal agate I wondered if my simulation is maybe messed up, I tried to sim thorncaller but the numbers were a bit off. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mNTU1EkqdK7NhtK53SBYU4

And this is for example the sim with the crafted molten-long blade https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6vaHQnPmDkm5FU6UdnUjcL

Does the simulation can't really process the passiv of thorncaller?

[light void]

My guess would be you ran dslice where the weapon isnt really as good and the crafted has MH ilvl advantage

[finite sparrow]

it is expected that thorncaller is not the clear winner in aoe sims like dungeonslice because it is missing agility

[gaunt grove]

But if we talk about practical damage it should be better compared to a crafted MH

Or does Thorncaller make only a bit diff in aoe

[finite sparrow]

why, because it is more single target?

[gaunt grove]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eaitKcLWYh9xC7p312U26u This is the ST sim from thorncaller

[finite sparrow]

yeah I know, but I would hesitate to call it more practical dmg

[gaunt grove]

Gotcha, I think I'm gonna play some dungeons to test it out

To get a better feel on it

[finite sparrow]

Would prefer crafted unless you want boss dmg

[half karma]

Also one thing to consider is that claw is split damage so it won't be more prio damage for most things, just more boss damage

If you don't have adds on bosses

[gaunt grove]

Yea I'm rather looking for aoe dmg, it's rather crafting the weapon or the belt

[noble pendant]

[tribal gate]

no axis labels

[noble pendant]

I can infer the axis labels, I'm mostly confused why we're doing a line of best fit

are we trying to interpret in-between values or something

2.4 targets

[quasi quarry]

True

It is damage scaling with number of targets

dumb dumb move

best fit is just so you can see that the dmg scaling is nonlinear

[turbid dome]

How do i sim my character to determine enchants and gems?

[fluid drum]

(1) Can ask this in #wow-general since this is more about theorycrafting.
(2) Use Top Gear

[quartz coral]

Do you think it's reasonable to sim Gnarlroot and igria as hectic add cleave?
Extra question is it possible to change the adds uptime in the hectic add cleave sim?

[regal agate]

you can creat your own fight style using raid events

one thing to consider is, apls are not always optimized for everything you throw at them

e.g. none of the rogue apls (to my knowledge) has specific handling for vulnerability events

so if you want to have a optimized simulation for a specific custom fight style with vulnerability phases
consider looking at the sample sequence and adjusting the apl to generate reasonable results.

[grand torrent]

how can I simulate an external buff - it would seem that "Mettle" embellishment which is used in pvp does not function as intended, since it should proc off from kicking the target as well as cc'ing the target. Patchwerk and castingpatchwerk produce identical results, and in the detailed report there is no buff that is tied to this embellishment.

I would like to make a workaround for this as we did with aura nerfs before they were implemented in simc (ie patch was going to nerf opportunity, we used to manually change the proc chance for double ss % to overwrite old values). How should I approach this?

[proven sparrow]

It does not proc of kicking a target. It does however proc of gouge, even when the target cannot be gouged, that is the only reliable way to proc it in pve

[grand torrent]

"interrupting an enemy" would count kicking it no?

[proven sparrow]

Well youre assuming it works like the tooltip says

Which is not the case

[grand torrent]

Imma try this after work today

shiv should also work if the tooltip is how it works

[stray bolt]

stun and blind do not count?

[proven sparrow]

Only if it stuns or blinds the target

Which it will not do on raid bosses

[grand torrent]

Confirmed that it indeed does not work as intended. Gouge does proc it however it would impede the rotation significantly

can also confirm that shiv DOES NOT work even though it states that dispelling a target would proc the effect.

[fast ermine]

does anyone know if there's a way I can specify to simc that I want it to treat critical strike damage as 1.5x instead of whatever it is by default?

[noble pendant]

there is not

pvp sims are completely unsupported with no plans

[grand torrent]

wait cant you write it off as an aura? or that doesn't work with crit damage?

also was curious, is there any way i can use advanced simulation options to sim for funnel damage? for example there is a certain plate leg embellishment that gives haste similar to shard of cor from shadowlands when you damage a new enemy. Thinking of something like hectic add cleave but with adds that have 1hp just to simulate buff uptime, would that be possible?

[noble pendant]

Yeah that’s possible, would look into raid events on the github wiki. Sounds like you’re looking for pulls

[grand torrent]

Update on this: It seems to be fixed with interrupts now, did not test shiv yet, simc still doesn't work with it however

[uncut canopy]

sorry if this isnt the right place for this, but is there a way I can sim by starting the encounter out of stealth and with e.g. deathmark already on cooldown?

[finite sparrow]

out of stealth yes, deathmark cooldown i dont think so

you would have to edit the APL (the rotation the sim uses, found here) and remove the precombat stealth action

then you can paste this entire new APL into the custom APL box inside raidbots

[thorny fog]

you can make deathmark not usable until x in the fight with a condition just remember to put it before the other things and dont mess up the and or or conditions with it

[finite sparrow]

i assume that would disrupt the rest of the apl unless you know what you're doing

[thorny fog]

correct

not really recommended

although most of the sin apl is syncs so it would just do what you would do normally esp delay the other cooldowns

[uncut canopy]

thanks for the help! is there an example of that ability not useable til x condition i can take a look at?

[finite sparrow]

think you can attach &time>60 which wont be true unless 60s have passed since combat began for example

but the apl has several conditions that check cooldown.deathmark.ready which is still true, or cooldown.deathmark.remains which is zero, even if you attach a time condition to the deathmark action

not familiar with the sin apl enough to know if things would get freaky if you start arbitrarily delaying deathmark like that

[uncut canopy]

gotcha, yea what i want to do is probably too awkward to get working correctly, but ill give it a quick look anyways. thanks!

[spiral light]

Yeah the entire apl will break if you attach a condition like that to Deathmark. It is completely useless and not usable.

[keen pike]

about this, In Mimiron where do we find all items available without having to introduce the id manually?

[noble pendant]

You… don’t? The sim only knows the ids that have been added to the simulation

Raidbots is just a fancy user interface and a cloud computing system, it doesn’t magically just know items. Still have to feed it the ids, which is why fuu made those gear imports

[regal agate]

adding to what whispyr stated.
you can add items in Gear compare.
And if you want to add an item to top gear, you can do so by going to the wowhead entry and copy it from there.
Lets take Matrix Restabilizer as an example.
you find the entry to copy the simc import string at the very right of the page under the Links button.
the string looks like this:yaml trinket1=matrix_restabilizer,id=68994
if you would want to change it to a certain item level you can add a item level modifier
and add a # in front to indicate that its in your inventory.ansi #trinket1=matrix_restabilizer,id=68994,ilevel=483 copy/pasting this below your /simc in top gear will add a 483 item level version of matrix restabilizer.

[keen pike]

was wondering because i wanted to add some crafted/embellish into my mimiron raidbots but with my aug evoker

and they don't have your simc strings for gear

[regal agate]

you would need to create them yourself, dropoptimizer can be quite good if you need some help.
If you want to do so, also make sure to add the correct bonus id's.
Raidbots uses bonus id's to identify sockets and some other things, it becomes a bit more complicated but you can find things usually in the spell data.

[sleek stirrup]

Hello guys, do one of you know if the Audacity bug is accounted into the sim ?

[half karma]

it is

[sleek stirrup]

Thanks

[sleek stirrup]

Hello mates, a quick question again, do the fact that the thorn does proc heal and not 100% proc as damage is taken in account in the current sims ?

[sleek stirrup]

Ok so the passive heal proc part of the thorn boots are taken in account already then ?

[regal agate]

it does assume you trigger the effect for damage

[sleek stirrup]

At 100% ?

I ask because for me it is procing like 30-40% of my procs as healing procs

so if the sim account 100% of the proc rate as damage, it is clearly way oversimming

Meaning that double shadowflamme should be better in any situation

[regal agate]

i don't remember exactly if both procs got separated or if they still share the same icd. So need to look up/ask.
But if it still shares the same proc rate, it would oversim for you if it triggers the heal frequently

[sleek stirrup]

Yes, that is the key part ^^

If you can provide me that information that would be great

[regal agate]

The heal effect still seems to share the proc chance.
And abilities do trigger the healing effect if they do so in game.
However, you using abilities that trigger the effect you need to actively use are not included by default.

So your simulation should be overall correct

[sleek stirrup]

Ok thanks

[naive thicket]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8US953nED1aDKWwz3dFBoS

What do you recommend I improve on my equipment or craft?

[regal agate]

this question is more fitting to #assassination

if you want to find out what craft would be best, the pins have a text file.
pasting this to top gear allows you to add crafted items comfortably into it.

[naive thicket]

ok thx

[grand torrent]

Alright I've tried everything about the "Mettle" embellishment in simc, I could not find a bandaid solution. Currently the sim does not take into account that you have equipped the embellishment, meaning it doesn't apply the buff after a kick/stun/dispel. Would it be even possible to fix this by myself or where should I contact for help about this?

Don't know the structure of simc github, so was concerned about opening a issue there, how would I even contact them about this?

[thorny fog]

you can make PR to koji if he can check the implementation in the general simc module or rogue one for triggers

[grand torrent]

PR as in github Pull Request? I'm a boomer idk how I am supposed to, can you DM me?

[oak sand]

i tried the exact thing last season for enha

cause it was bis m+ embellishment due to sundring (2p)

me and some other shamans tried it even with help of big brains like kyrasis etc. but we couldnt find any way to add it without being scuffed

so as a good advice, stop bothering, its time waste trying to implement the embellishment 100% correctly

and also from a logical perspective i dont think this specific embellishment was/is/will ever be good besides S2 Enha Shaman

[red hazel]

hello any have the simc for all raid trinket ? (voti,aberus and amirdrasil)

[finite sparrow]

don't think so but you can generate them in raidbots gear compare, by creating the items and then scrolling down to "show simc input"

Seri is also working on a way to generate items directly into top gear soon(tm) which will be nice

[red hazel]

okok thanks

[thorny fog]

you can get the string from wowhead too

[regal agate]

Season 2 trinkets:

################
## TRINKETS
################
#Aberrus, the Shadowed Crucible
#trinket1=dragonfire_bomb_dispenser,id=202610,ilevel=447
#trinket1=screaming_black_dragonscale,id=202612,ilevel=447
#trinket1=elementium_pocket_anvil,id=202617,ilevel=447
#trinket1=ominous_chromatic_essence,id=203729,ilevel=447
#trinket1=beacon_to_the_beyond,id=203963,ilevel=450
#trinket1=neltharions_call_to_suffering,id=204211,ilevel=457
#Halls of Infusion
#trinket1=globe_of_jagged_ice,id=193732,ilevel=447
#trinket1=irideus_fragment,id=193743,ilevel=447
#Neltharus
#trinket1=mutated_magmammoth_scale,id=193786,ilevel=447
#trinket1=erupting_spear_fragment,id=193769,ilevel=431
##Brakenhide hollow
#trinket1=frenzying_signoll_flare,id=193672,ilevel=447
#trinket1=idol_of_pure_decay,id=193660,ilevel=431
##Uldaman
#trinket1=homeland_raid_horn,id=193815,ilevel=447
##Neltharions lair
#trinket1=naraxas_spiked_tongue,id=137349,bonus_id=6654,ilevel=431
#trinket1=mark_of_dargrul,id=137357,bonus_id=6654,ilevel=447
#The Underrot
#trinket1=lingering_sporepods,id=159626,ilevel=447
#Freehold
#trinket1=harlans_loaded_dice,id=155881,ilevel=447
#Aberrus, the Shadowed Crucible - tradable
#trinket1=igneous_flowstone,id=203996,ilevel=447
#Dawn of the Infinite
#trinket1=mirror_of_fractured_tomorrows,id=207581,ilevel=447
#trinket1=accelerating_sandglass,id=207566,ilevel=441
#trinket1=prophetic_stonescales,id=207528,ilevel=441
#Paracausal Fragments Trinkets
#trinket1=paracausal_fragment_of_azzinoth,id=206972,ilevel=424
#trinket1=paracausal_fragment_of_doomhammer,id=206964,ilevel=424
#trinket1=paracausal_fragment_of_frostmourne,id=206983,ilevel=424
#trinket1=paracausal_fragment_of_sulfuras,id=206956,ilevel=424
#trinket1=paracausal_fragment_of_thunderfin_humid_blade_of_the_tideseeker,id=207005,ilevel=424
#trinket1=paracausal_fragment_of_shalamayne,id=207024,ilevel=424

Season 1 trinkets:

#################
### TRINKETS
#################
##Vault of the Incarnates
#trinket1=,id=194299,ilevel=415
#trinket1=,id=194301,ilevel=421
#trinket1=,id=194302,ilevel=421
#trinket1=,id=194305,ilevel=421
#trinket1=,id=194306,ilevel=421
#trinket1=,id=194308,ilevel=424
#trinket1=,id=194309,ilevel=424
##Temple of the Jade Serpent
#trinket1=,id=144113,ilevel=421
##Halls of Valor
#trinket1=,id=133642,ilevel=421
#trinket1=,id=136975,ilevel=421
##Court of Stars
#trinket1=,id=137486,ilevel=421
##The Nokhud Offensive
#trinket1=,id=193697,ilevel=421
##Algeth'ar Academy
#trinket1=,id=193701,ilevel=421
##Ruby Life Pools
#trinket1=,id=193757,ilevel=421
#Must be traded
#trinket1=eye_of_skovald,id=133641,ilevel=415
#trinket1=gift_of_radiance,id=133647,ilevel=415```

^ you can use these from th text files i created, but need to replace the ilevel=xxx parts

[thorny fog]

if you want to do some funny simming next season's ilvl is 489+42 more for special items

things like boon or icon are going to get SLAMMED hard

[viral mist]

BTW, Seal of Diurna's Chosen ring does not appear to proc from damage done by Fyrakk's Tainted Rageheart. Not important now of course, but i suspect next patch that would be the combo to go to in a lot of cases.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wb2csWxNjnh2t9XvGjCJ17

vs https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jvUr3Ad6qdgyrJMXLSAfmP

[noble pendant]

Is it proccing in game?

Element mismatches like that are highly inconsistent and shadowflame while technically being half shadow half fire doesn’t count for pure shadow/fire things a lot of the time

The hybrid elements are all really spaghetti

[proud wadi]

I don't remember, did shadowflame patch proc the ring?

[viral mist]

Hmm, not sure

[regal agate]

think it did, but i did dissenchant my one so can't test

shouldn't be a problem tho, we can test it once season 4 ptr opens assuming you can still get gear from a vendor on ptr

[thorny fog]

the weapon enchant did at least

[noble pendant]

the enchant and the patch did

I'm having a friend test the trinket

it does

trinket idk

cause it's stupid

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4MPmrYNQ9wgnXfHA#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=13

[proud wadi]

[noble pendant]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZhNLya9ftrjA28Gm#fight=5&type=damage-done&source=13&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%24242321289.0.0.DemonHunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24394453^0%24Separate%24%23909049%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%24242321289.0.0.DemonHunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24425461^0%24Separate%24%23a04D8A%24damage%240%240.0.0.Any%24242321289.0.0.DemonHunter%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24425701

aight

does proc

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qsoJYBTmTDAW4hzJF5DQJL

and here's a clean sim where it doesn't proc from rageheart

since you did have bandolier equipped

[oak sand]

Kazzak Neck + Ring + 2x SF Weapon Enchant + Rageheart + La Bomba confirmed BiS Setup? 🫣🫣

[noble pendant]

definitely not

the ring isn't that strong, but you also hit the proc limit on the ring with like

a third of those

[thorny fog]

zskarn trink and weapon enchant were already quite competitive back in s2

before it got nerfed again

but i think there will be at least 1 trinket tuning pass

some trinkets are kinda broken

[rugged pumice]

Timestrike dagger looking still strong and bis for all 3 specs in offhand I assume. I am having EoN flashbacks

[regal agate]

yes, timestrike is good enough to make them good in offhand slots

however, its vital to not compare it to EoN, Timestrike is a fairly weak bonus so the diffrence between having the dagger and not having it will be low

[thorny fog]

depends how much you highroll with it

but still not a huge % just like 1 or so

[bronze gale]

Isn't DotI gear going to be low ilvl next tier?

[noble pendant]

"low"

with the ilvl drop changes for dungeons m0 is 1/6 hero track iirc

[finite sparrow]

m0 is champion track, not confirmed if we can get a hero track from hard mode or vault i think

but at least for outlaw, a champion track nick is (unfortunately) fairly on par with max lvl offhands

[noble pendant]

ah, I thought I saw something bout vault but could be hallucinating

[finite sparrow]

the m0 vault is hero track but not sure if doti will be in the loot pool

[indigo mist]

would suck if we have to avoid doing m+ to target m0 loot. lol

hard mode m0 might be hero track, but thats once a week?

[proven sparrow]

Its not. The m+ row only contains loot from m+, even if you do heroics n stuff

[proven sparrow]

Only last boss loot as well, unless they changed it from last season

[indigo mist]

although, it was 447 which was mythic last season

[regal agate]

Season 4 gear strings for Top Gear:
Should be complete, but let me know if something is missing/wrong.
Best is to use Raidbots - Mimiron to have all items available.
(ADVISE: Use a trimmed version or the reduced crafted gear list as the full version will lead to a laggy website experience)
Note Includes BoE's, Catalyst and tradable items. S4 tier set tooltip is not working on Raidbots.

[slate torrent]

the m0 VAULT

is hero track

that means that the drop is champ track?

what about hero mode doti

[regal agate]

hero mode doti changes the loot in the adventure guide to hero track.
It is unclear if the drops are also hero track outside of last boss.
If anyone tested, any information on it is welcome.

[proven sparrow]

The dungeon vault row is based on the seasonal dungeons only. However you fill up the slots (timewalking, heroics, m0 etc) doesnt matter, it still only draws from the seasonal dungeon pool. To explicitly avoid situations like this where people would play 8x of something and not play any m+ to gamba for something

[unkempt crescent]

So it's one chance per week for m0 dagger and everyday hc one

[jovial scroll]

on my sim its only better by 8 dps for a dungeon slice vs the crit verse heroic dagger

[charred hill]

did you ever find any more information on this? Havoc is in the same boat for DT and i havent found a soul who has tested hard mode

[regal agate]

haven't tested it myself, so no

[noble pendant]

first bosses are champ track

[charred hill]

🫡

[slate torrent]

later bosses are hero track?

in particular iridikron?

[noble pendant]

I didn't run the whole thing but I would assume so

[slate torrent]

good news for prophetic stonescales

[regal agate]

Season 4 gear strings for Top Gear:
Should be complete, but let me know if something is missing/wrong.
Best is to use Raidbots - Mimiron to have all items available.
(ADVISE: Use a trimmed version or the reduced crafted gear list as the full version will lead to a laggy website experience)
Note Includes BoE's, Catalyst and tradable items. S4 tier set tooltip is not working on Raidbots.
update Fixed trinket id of jagged ice globe, changed mirror to heroic track.

[hollow summit]

is there a resource or FAQ on the discord that shows how to use these^

[half karma]

this is simply pasted under your /simc in top gear

[thorny fog]

i have a video about it i think

but it is not hard like zac says

do the shortened one tho so you dont get a super pasta

[regal agate]

its copy/paste, just like this:

[violet scarab]

How do I run a ptr sim?

[finite sparrow]

for top gear you would have to put ptr=1 in simc expert mode > header box

but there is no reason, all ptr gear changes are also on live servers

[violet scarab]

I'm confused. I need to run ptr version cause its a different tier set for me

[finite sparrow]

the new tier sets are new items that you can add/equip without ptr=1

[violet scarab]

https://i.imgur.com/CFtLV45.png

just this?

[finite sparrow]

for outlaw they use the season 2 tier name (lurking specter) but have the season 3 bonus

[jaunty forum]

@regal agate do you think sims are accurate rn?

saw some dev / arms sims

[noble pendant]

most classes aren't getting a ton of changes going into season 4

so they should be fairly accurate

there's obviously always changes and stuff to find, especially if it's older tier sets

[jaunty forum]

so 437k Dev Evoker?

[regal agate]

^ feel free to do simulations. We might push some specific trinket updates before reset but shouldn't rly effect the outcome much

[jaunty forum]

Mhh

[regal agate]

arms/dev do seem like outliners with noticably higher damage with full equipment

keep in mind that there is still a gearing curve, so this diffrences will take some time to show in logs

[thorny fog]

haste is a hell of a drug

[regal agate]

additionally, raid design will play a central role for the overall standing on wcl

[jaunty forum]

Yeah i thought someting like the same. Also fight time will have its value

[wild marlin]

I'm pretty sure Thistle Tea isn't simming the buff pandemic. In game it looks like a 30% buff duration pandemic. When spammed, combat log shows it goes about 8sec but the sim only gets 6sec.

[noble pendant]

@knotty oriole for visibility 👁️

[knotty oriole]

Yeah I saw. There is an issue with this not parsing automatically. Not sure how much practical difference this makes though. But should be able to put a fix in.

May try to fix in the core if possible.

[noble pendant]

yeah practically there is no difference but probably good to fix just in case hero talents are jank

[wild marlin]

Thanks! That was my thought as well, not something we can abuse today but maybe soon with TWW.

[solar swift]

hi, brand procs from procs update already been added to simc?

I don't see this change on the github commits

[thorny fog]

for rogue it does not do much at least

we could already kinda fill all the rppm

[finite sparrow]

I never saw the spell data parsing pick up the change. Not sure it even happened

But yeah it also does literally nothing

[half karma]

It did

Recently

Was like the day after I was complaining I couldn't see any spell data change @finite sparrow

So should be in sims now

[finite sparrow]

[light void]

how many hits does it need to fill out the rppm of brand? if someone knows

[regal agate]

its 3 rppm

[regal agate]

Doti Hard mode.

Hard mode puts every Dawn of the Infinite drop on heroic track.
A fair warning, the hard mode is tuned fairly high and doing it is not trivial.

Nick of Time - Comparison:
Assassination - Single Target - Dungeon Slice
Outlaw- Single Target - Dungeon Slice
Subtlety - Single Target - Dungeon Slice

Summary:```ansi
Relative DPS gain from Nick of Time(Hard Mode version):
Assassination - Single Target +0.7% - Dungeon Slice +0.1%
Outlaw - Single Target -0.4% - Dungeon Slice +0.3%
Subtlety - Single Target +0.4% - Dungeon Slice +0.3%

[regal agate]

^ just a note, Doti hard mode and non hard mode share the lockout, so you can't do both.
(it is a common question, so i feel like adding this information here is relevant)

[regal agate]

Dawn of the Infinite Hard mode DEATHLESS:
Deathless turns the loot from the last boss to mythic track.
This puts a Crit / Haste belt and the Mirrors of fractured tomorrows Trinket to our mythic track gear pool.

Trinket comparison:
Assassination - Single Target - Dungeon Slice
Outlaw- Single Target - Dungeon Slice
Subtlety - Single Target - Dungeon Slice

Summary:```ansi
The mirror of fractured tomorrow trinket on the mythic track is not strong enough to be considered a worthwhile farm.

[regal agate]

^ another question i see a lot is how to activate hard mode. There is a npc at the start of the dungeon for that.

[thorny fog]

The npc in question is our boi bronze aspect nozdormu

[stray bolt]

With APL optimization from #1065730164077645916 message, I think the build of
BMQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEJJJJSQAAAAAAIlkItkAAAAAAAaJJIBSSKpFRE5ARScgEJNlIBA
makes a desirable candidate for Season 4 Sin in m+.
It provides a high target amount scaling in AOE similar to "Hybrid 5Tar" in bloodmallet, while maintain a close runner-up in ST compared to traditional left-mid hybrid (CT considered).

[stray bolt]

Current Gear is the single shiv + DS variant, CT/DS/1ZR/1Scent/KB/DTB/IC.

[spiral light]

I would be slightly weary on hyper-optimizing talents, profiles and the apl with so many things changing for TWW with the removal of key talents, major changes to existing ones and introduction of the Hero Talents. Makes sense now to force Scent-saturation, but might not work in the future with the nerfed KB, removal of Nightstalker and changes to Dance/Vanish.

[stray bolt]

That being said, the potential of 1-rank scent was not explored and if not changed how scent works on 1 rank, it would still be a potential adoption in future.

[spiral light]

Absolutely, but I think it might lose quite a bit of value with the aforementioned changes. But definitely something to look into more when we have the finished Class/Spec talents as well as the Hero Talents.

[pastel raven]

Hi guyz, how is the support of Dungeon Route for Sub and Outlaw ? does it work well ?

[noble pendant]

all the rogue specs support it because they support dungeonslice, but there is no specific additional support for dungeonroute outside of that

[pastel raven]

ok, so dungeon route doesn't require any additional tuning outside of dungeon slice support ? Just a custom MDT route ?

[noble pendant]

correct

[regal agate]

it does not require apl changes, but dungeon route has only very small use cases and dungeon slice is in general the better choice

[pastel raven]

why it has only very small use cases ? Isn't it best to do at least a sim for each dungeon to adapt to each ?

[regal agate]

because its a very static enviroment

[rugged pumice]

Just use target dummy xyz target and 1 minute

[regal agate]

you sim for one specific pull strategy, with one specific group constellation on one very specific key level.
And even then, the sim only tells you how well your spec performs with default gameplay, a lot of more specialized routes might want different cooldown use.
And there is no variation, the pulls are always the same, it is very easy to hit a local maxima as a result.

[pastel raven]

ah yes ok i see

[noble pendant]

this might be even worse

[rugged pumice]

Patchwerk same

Works for dh

[noble pendant]

aoe patchwerk sims are pretty much worthless for dungeon comparison sims

[regal agate]

low duration multi target simulations are also static and don't represent a dungeon well

[noble pendant]

it's ignoring a ton of things

[regal agate]

if you want a somwhat reasonable sim, use dungeon slice

[rugged pumice]

It helps to see xyz pull

[rugged pumice]

Good because in m+ you don't have much if any buffs

[noble pendant]

what's that got to do with anything

[regal agate]

1 mintue simulations is the newest trend because we told people to not do 20 - 40 second multi target simulation

the misunderstanding here is, that you can sim "one single pull" doing so

[pastel raven]

the no variation issue is also present in dungeon slice isn't it tho ?

[noble pendant]

dungeonslice has variance

both on pull size and length

[regal agate]

but any regular pull will set you back with cooldowns, you possibly won't have all cooldowns, combat potion etc every single pull

just to illustrate what i mean, over the years i saw hundrets of simulations with 20-40 seconds (now 60 seconds because the word goes around that 30 seconds is not good anymore)

[pastel raven]

ah yes, but isn't the variance given to dungeon route by the diversity of pull lenght and size given by the MDT route ?

[regal agate]

simulations have a typical 20% time variation so 30 seocnds is more like 24-36 seconds.
People typically leave Bloodlust on, a buff that lasts 20 seconds.
So what you evaluate is basically how strong your initial cooldowsn are and how well you benefit from bloodlust.
This asside no apl i know is optimized for 20 seconds fights, so you would need to even after that go in and make sure to hard code the 20 abilities you use to get the best result

ignoring this deal breakers already, a dungeon pull will not have all targets up for the entire duration

a dungeon pull will naturally get lower in target count over time

[noble pendant]

no, because each pull will be the exact same length every time, so the sim assumes you'll have the same cooldowns at the same point every time, but that's not really how dungeons work for players, bosses can die slower/faster, trash packs might die slower/faster, other people might mess up their burst. Dungeonroute takes none of that into account and statically runs the dungeon with the exact same timings

[pastel raven]

ah ok i thought it was given the mobs HP and was actually damaging them in the sim

[noble pendant]

it does

[pastel raven]

so they die in real time

[noble pendant]

but there's no variance in that

[regal agate]

dungeon slice is a mixed fight style.
You can essentially think of it as a 2 minute "boss fight" at the beginning.
We designed it this way to make it easy to support it, you don't need any specific apl changes to hold for specific timings.
After this initial "boss fight", packs of diffrent size are spawned, a smaller and a bigger one alternating.
The duration of each element is randomized, so each mop in a pack (mob packs will vary in size too) will live for a different duration and there will be overlaps.
Dungeon slice also allows restealths, but depending on how pack overlaps they are not guaranteed every time

[pastel raven]

but how does the lenght could be the same every time if there is different size of packs in the route ?

[noble pendant]

because if you reach pack #8 at 7:34

you reach pack #8 at 7:34, every time

[pastel raven]

but how is it possible with the rng of the dmg ?

the variance should come naturally isn't it ?

[regal agate]

there will be some natural variance, but neither of the groups will change at all

dungeon routes can be a tool to see what pulls naturally align well with spec cooldowns

but you rarely can utialize this information unless you spend a lot of time carefully planing around the exact key level and group constellation

[pastel raven]

you mean dungeon route isn't it ?

[regal agate]

dunegon routes is a nice concept, but it is as a fight style not generalized enough to be useful outside of the very specific snapshot you create

[pastel raven]

ok so in your opinion if i understand well, dungeon route should have the randomization that dungeon slice have to be less specific isn't it ?

[regal agate]

yes, statistically spoken. If you have diffrent key levels, strategies, groups and random factors like human error (as well as diffrent dungeons)

having one static, non changing snapshot is not a good way to caprute everything

[pastel raven]

ok

ty 🙂

tho even in dungeon slice i dont see any randomization in packs length and size

length at least seem to be static for the 2 kind of pack isn't it ?

[noble pendant]

all of these affect the duration

[regal agate]

there is 1 or 2 standard deviation of change

[noble pendant]

and these are packsizes

[spiral light]

Standard deviation

[regal agate]

if you want to read up on it

wiki page - Standard deviation

[pastel raven]

ah ok

ok thx 🙂

so just to wrap up on dungeon route, are thoses deviations applicable (theorically) on dungeon route fight style ?

[regal agate]

dungeon routes are just raid events, similar to dungeon slice. So technically you can add variation if you re-write these events to fit whatever you want to emulate.

you can read up on raid events in the apl wiki - raid events.

[pastel raven]

ok thx i will 🙂

is it possible to add restealth between packs as you did on dungeon slice ?

[regal agate]

dungeon routes has restealths iirc

[pastel raven]

oh ok nice ! thx 🙂

[regal agate]

it is unclear what you trying to achieve, it would help to give more context

[pastel raven]

i'm just trying to have a more generic dungeon route

with more varations

[regal agate]

if you want more variation, export multiple diffrent dungeon routes and sim all of them

and statistically analzye the results

[noble pendant]

more generic dungeon route is just dungeonslice

[pastel raven]

yes but would be best to do this directly in simc and simc giving me the average best insi't it ?

[regal agate]

thats why we have dungeon slice ^^

[pastel raven]

yes but a dungeon slice slightly tuned for a dungeon

[regal agate]

its a generalized fight style with mixed pack sizes, restealths, etc

[noble pendant]

okay, so dungeonslice

dungeonslice is based on dungeons

that's where the name comes from, it's a slice of a dungeon

[regal agate]

i think this was coined a bit more towards higher mob counts recently, but dungeon slice has mixed pull sizes

[pastel raven]

what i would like is to discover if a specific set of trinkets for exemple is better for a particular dungeon

just an exemple

yes i wanted also to make a custom dungeon slice with highter count of mobs in packs

because i think 4-6 , 1-3 is too small

[regal agate]

your question seems more targeted towards opimizing for one specific pull than an entire dungeon

[pastel raven]

thats 2 different needs

i would like to sim an entire dungeon for specific dungeon tuning, and i would like to tune dungeon slice to better represent an actual dungeon "slice"

[regal agate]

your best bet then is to create a statistical analysis off pull sizes and distribution from Warcraftlogs.
After that fine tune the variables of dungeon slice to represent that.

btw. this is exactly how it was tuned when it gets changed

[pastel raven]

yes sounds great ^^

ok

i just feel it lacks a big pull in the dungeon slice

just one

[regal agate]

but if you want somehting even more specific, you need to create your own fight style or fine tune one to your needs

[pastel raven]

and maybe +1 to the 2 kind of packs

2-4, 5-7

[pastel raven]

yes thats what i was planing, with raid_events

[regal agate]

dungeon slice does typically only get tuning when it seems too diffrent to game statistics

but feel free to suggest changes if this is the case

best is to do so in the simc discord tho

https://discord.gg/tFR2uvK

[pastel raven]

yes ok 🙂

sure ^^

i'm not sure of how to create the statistical analysis for Warcraftlogs but i will search

[regal agate]

you can do so by using the warcraft logs api, keep in mind that working with api's probably requires a little tiny bit of programming.

[pastel raven]

ah yes i was supposing it would be with the api

ok thx i will see to that

[regal agate]

it has nothing to do with apl, simply writing a script that reads data from warcraft log records

[pastel raven]

u meant api ?

[regal agate]

the alternative (more time consuming) option would be to just write down the timers, etc on your own in e.g. a google or excel sheet. Keep in mind that you migth want a high enough data size to have a good representation.

[pastel raven]

but why it has nothing to do with the api ? shouldn't i use the warcraftlogs api to get the records ?

[regal agate]

api are interfaces you can usually communicate and redrive data from.
E.g. the wcl, raider.io or world of warcraft armory api allow you get character details or other statistical data.
apl stands for action priority list, and is a set of logical arguments to define how the simulation plays the game.

you can go to the wow armory and look at your character to get the same data as from doing so through the api.
The same applies to raider.io or warcraft logs.
So there is the option to, in theory just write down everything manually from the website but it is very inefficient compared to writing a small script to gather the same data.

i hope this clarifies the differences and eliminates confusion.

[pastel raven]

Thx for the recap but I think you miss read earlier, I didn't tell you about apl

[pastel raven]

I was talking about the api

But thx anyway 😉

[regal agate]

oh, possible^^

[pastel raven]

Np ^^

[knotty oriole]

Actually this isn’t quite right now since it was updated somewhat in Dragonflight to have longer durations.

[knotty oriole]

The current numbers are more like this

DungeonSlice approximates a "slice" of a M+ dungeon. A single boss mob followed by alternating then interleaving large/weak trash packs (4-6 mobs for 18 seconds) and small/strong trash packs (1-3 mobs for 30 seconds). Durations are randomized on a per-enemy basis within 2 standard deviations of the mean. Due to the offset cooldowns, all add waves beyond the first of each type can potentially overlap, leading to a semi-random pattern between 1-9 enemies at any given time, with an average target count across the entire duration (including as enemies "die") of 4.

For people who may be confused by the fact that these numbers are larger than the singular raid events

[jaunty forum]

Guys does someone have the String to simstring to compare Chromatic Essence attunements?

Checked the Pins and i thought it will be there

[regal agate]

#tc-research message

best would be to remove the trinket line from each of the copy statements

results in:```yaml
copy="Ominous Chromatic Essence (Obsidian/All)"
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_dragonflight=obsidian
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_allies=obsidian/emerald/bronze/azure/ruby

copy="Ominous Chromatic Essence (Ruby/Versatility)"
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_dragonflight=ruby
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_allies=obsidian/emerald/bronze/azure/ruby

copy="Ominous Chromatic Essence (Bronze/Haste)"
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_dragonflight=bronze
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_allies=obsidian/emerald/bronze/azure/ruby

copy="Ominous Chromatic Essence (Azure/Mastery)"
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_dragonflight=azure
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_allies=obsidian/emerald/bronze/azure/ruby

copy="Ominous Chromatic Essence (Emerald/Critical Strike)"
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_dragonflight=emerald
dragonflight.ominous_chromatic_essence_allies=obsidian/emerald/bronze/azure/ruby```

[jaunty forum]

ty

[jaunty forum]

@regal agate may i ask a question?

i simmed it like that but im confused from the results

[regal agate]

if its theorycrafting related, best to ask in this channel.
If not maybe better to talk in #subtlety

[jaunty forum]

its about the essence sim

its not even for rogue its more like an overall thing

[regal agate]

the parameters used int he above : https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ExpansionOptions#trinkets

so the above assumes others using the trinket too

might not be the case this tier

[jaunty forum]

i guess you will have some buffs (why not?)

[regal agate]

well other players in your raid need to use the trinket

wowhead - chromatic essence

[jaunty forum]

they do i just want to find out which attunement will be the best for me

[regal agate]

^then putting this below your /simc in advanced sim is all you need

reguardless of what class you are

[jaunty forum]

yes i paste it #actors

because i remebered season 2

[regal agate]

You get a result like this: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cnVSbVjU36rpkMoaGNdWQ1

so inm this case the azur flight (giving you mastery) is the best option

the locations can be found in the wowhead comments

[indigo mist]

how do I get a spell effect id?

[regal agate]

you can use the search funtion in the spell data dump from simulatrioncraft.

[indigo mist]

amazing, thanks!

[strong gorge]

Also it's the ID in the wowhead link.

[indigo mist]

Those are just spell ids. Some items or spells have multiple effects that have their own ids but isn't anywhere on Wowhead

[fair kernel]

they are all on wowhead... it can just be hard to find the correct one for the spell/effect you are interested in.

[pastel raven]

@fuu I didn't manage to get the count of mobs in dungeon pulls from wcl api (its not directly obtainable and tedious to derive apparently) but if i want to just make a +1 on each trash mob packs on raidbots i just have to put :

  raid_events+=/adds,name=SmallAdd,count=6,count_range=1,first=140,cooldown=45,duration=18,duration_stddev=2
  raid_events+=/adds,name=BigAdd,count=3,count_range=1,first=160,cooldown=50,duration=30,duration_stddev=2

in footer of expert mode ? This will override the selected fight style in graphical ui ?

[regal agate]

you need to use advances sim if you want to sim custom fight styles

[pastel raven]

ah ok, shame its not feasable in expert mode because it would let me use the standard ui when testing this ^^

[finite sparrow]

there is a way but i need a minute to figure it out

[pastel raven]

ok 🙂

[half karma]

I think you would need to use dungeonRoute fight style instead

fight_style=DungeonRoute
override.windfury_totem=0
override.arcane_intellect=0
override.power_word_fortitude=0
override.battle_shout=0
override.mark_of_the_wild=0
override.mystic_touch=0
override.chaos_brand=0
override.bleeding=0
single_actor_batch=0
max_time=2100
enemy="Uldaman: Legacy of Tyr 29 Tyrannical"
enemy_health=9999999
keystone_level=29
keystone_pct_hp=27``` like for example this is the header of one

[finite sparrow]

i could have sworn it was like this

ignore_invulnerable_targets=1
max_time=360

raid_events+=/adds,name=Boss,count=1,cooldown=500,duration=135,type=add_boss,duration_stddev=1
raid_events+=/adds,name=SmallAdd,count=5,count_range=1,first=140,cooldown=45,duration=18,duration_stddev=2
raid_events+=/adds,name=BigAdd,count=2,count_range=1,first=160,cooldown=50,duration=30,duration_stddev=2```
but fight_style=none does not exist anymore (?)

maybe u can just put dungeonroute

[half karma]

doing that im sure you wont be able to restealth etc

[finite sparrow]

ignore_invulnerable_targets=1 is secretly part of dslice and lets you restealth

[half karma]

[finite sparrow]

i think there is also a secret raid event that spawns an invulnerable target tho

[pastel raven]

where you would put it tho ? in footer of expert mode ?

[finite sparrow]

yes it would all be in footer

[pastel raven]

ok thx 🙂

[knotty oriole]

DungeonSlice doesn’t use invulnerable targets anymore but it does inject the raid events automatically and the skipping of the main target is based on the fight style

[stray bolt]

what would be the correct fight style? I tried to copy dungeon slice using the provided raid event lines but it always put a boss there.

[finite sparrow]

discussed it in raidbots server a bit, it's not possible to run an edited dslice anymore

[pastel raven]

is there a version of the consumables advanced input with weapons enchants Main hand / Off hand combinations ? (not the same in main and off hand)

[regal agate]

just tick "replace gems/enchants" and select the weapon enchants you want to sim

[pastel raven]

i meant the Runes

in the consumes.txt

(its called enchants in the file thats why i called them this sorry ^^)

[regal agate]

###################
### Weapon enchants
###################
copy="Weapons: (haste) Howling rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:howling_rune_3/off_hand:howling_rune_3
copy="Weapons: (mastery) Hissing rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:hissing_rune_3/off_hand:hissing_rune_3
copy="Weapons: (AP) Whetstone rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:primal_whetstone_3/off_hand:primal_whetstone_3
copy="no weapon oil"
temporary_enchant=disabled
copy="Weapon: (crit) Buzzin rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:buzzing_rune_3/off_hand:buzzing_rune_3

thats for the weapon oils/runes

[pastel raven]

yes but there is only both hands same rune

i was just asking if there is a version with different rune in hands combinations

i can do this myself but its tedious ^^

[regal agate]

the syntax is easy, you can simply replace one.
e.g. if you want a mix of haste and mastery you can change one part of the line

temporary_enchant=main_hand:howling_rune_3/off_hand:howling_rune_3

And add it to a new line with changed title like this:

copy="Weapons: (haste/mastery) Howling/Hissing rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:howling_rune_3/off_hand:hissing_rune_3

[pastel raven]

yes i know, but its tedious to do for all combinations ^^

just wanted to know if it already exist

[regal agate]

need to do a copy for each combination you want to sim
so you have a maximum of 10 combinations to add

[pastel raven]

but if no i will do np

[regal agate]

or to visualize it, this would be the combinations

[pastel raven]

ok i will do it then thx

[regal agate]

its not that tendious if you use any modern text editor, can just double click select words and copy/paste

[pastel raven]

yes sure

i will do it and post it here

[regal agate]

i did count the disabled option to, its actually only 4, so 6 combinations.
i stopped time, was less than a minute of work.
can just copy/paste this below the above.```yaml
copy="Weapons: (haste/mastery) Howling/Hissing rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:howling_rune_3/off_hand:hissing_rune_3
copy="Weapons: (haste/ap) Howling/stone rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:howling_rune_3/off_hand:primal_whetstone_3
copy="Weapons: (haste/crit) Howling/Buzzing rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:howling_rune_3/off_hand:buzzing_rune_3

copy="Weapons: (mastery) Hissing/Stone rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:hissing_rune_3/off_hand:primal_whetstone_3
copy="Weapons: (mastery/crit) Hissing/Buzzing rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:hissing_rune_3/off_hand:buzzing_rune_3

copy="Weapons: (AP/crit) Whetstone/Buzzing rank 3"
temporary_enchant=main_hand:primal_whetstone_3/off_hand:buzzing_rune_3```

[pastel raven]

Lisan al gaib 🙏

thx you very much fuu ^^

[grand torrent]

when can we expect sample simulation profiles for TWW beta sim stuff?

[regal agate]

1-2 months from now

[grand torrent]

but thats no longer beta

[regal agate]

if you want to sim your character, you can do so on raidbots, the simc addon works on beta. Apl support is still experimental, with most things not optimized around. This is also because many things are incomplete and buggy in game as well as in sims

[grand torrent]

[regal agate]

beta is for testing, its is misunderstood as a game mode or content release like the 10.2 patch.
This is in part because of how it was advertised, but the reason to play it is to be able to give feedback on the forum and to file bug reports.

[grand torrent]

thought I'd need to download simc client to sim beta, if I can do so on raidbots thats a big plus

[regal agate]

just keep in mind, that things might not work and you possibly need to jump through loops to make them work.

[grand torrent]

nah you know me I always ask for data n shit for the past 3 years or so before any patch/exp comes out like 6 months prior

mostly also wondering what others hav been cooking, we might see lots of apl changes eventually obviously due to tier sets and loss of shadow dance on sin/outlaw

[regal agate]

I just wanted to highlight, that BIS, talents and Spec choice are more free on beta. Bugs are typically documented in the spec channels if there are breaking ones. The best way to play beta is to try to have fun and report bugs if you encounter them.

(also we likely see changes to talents, trinkets, balancing and other things making any moentary evaluation quickly outdated)

i think #tww-outlaw has some preliminary simulations pinned, maybe that's something interesting.

[finite sparrow]

outlaw stuff is pretty much implemented, though not sure about the broader scope of war within stuff (like trinkets)

[minor quartz]

am i able to access that channel somehow?

[proven sparrow]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1266125190761414727
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1065730004920586350
The link is outdated anyway

[regal agate]

the beta channels are closed, thats why

[minor quartz]

oh ok, thank you

[regal agate]

the iformation is now in the regular spec channels

[minor quartz]

was looking to poke around some sims is all 🙂

[regal agate]

have fun, just a kindly reminder that there are a lot of bugs in game.
So making comparisons between specs/classes based on simulations is currently not recommended.

[minor quartz]

of course :), just poking around, im at an impass on what i want to play and looking for things to influence me lol

modded for OT or bug?

my bad either way

[regal agate]

non TC discussions or chit chat please in the spec channels.

[minor quartz]

yep, my fault

[regal agate]

The War Within gear strings for Top Gear:

Best is to use in Raidbots Top Gear to have all items available.
How to use: copy/paste the content of the text file below your /simc in top gear.

Note The crafted gear list is trimmed and does not include embellishments added to gear, use the + symbol to add embellistments to the crafted piece of your choice.
Note - Delves There is no complete Delve item list, the Delve items in the gear list are unlisted items and could be incomplete. I will update the list once we have a confirmed list of all drops.

[limpid fossil]

what does pmultiplier refer to in the APL

[regal agate]

it references snapshots (if a multiplier is active on the spell)

e.g. it is used in the assassination apl to figure out if a garrote has the 50% damage bonus snapshot from improved garrote

[vocal ore]

It's also used with Rupture and Crimson Tempest but for those, it should have no effect (always be 1) and is mostly a safety thing in case blizzard adds snapshotting to them.

[spiral light]

Yeah, was primarily used for Nightstalker-esq effects and currently doesn't do anything special for CT/Rupture. But like said, no reason to remove it either as it doesn't really change anything and we would have to reimplement it once Blizzard decides to bring Snapshotting back again as they tend to do every now and again.

[pastel raven]

@regal agate Hello Fuu, regarding the debate on dungeon slice being too generic and dungeon route being too specific, couldn't it be a balance between the 2 where we run a dungeon slice x4, so not a "slice" anymore but a real dungeon duration (and number of bosses / packs) with maybe 2 kinds a trashs pack and varations, one like on atm (4-6, 18s / 1-3 30s) and the other to determine. To determine the other kind I was thinking of doing a statistical analyse of the most used dungeon routes, what do you think of this ? Would it be a good idea ? (the general idea and to use routes to determine the properties of packs 2 and 4)

[noble pendant]

the problem is that in order to run a full duration dungeon, dungeonroute removes variance

dungeonslice is already way too slow at 6 min with variance

making it 40 is just not viable

[pastel raven]

oh ok 😦

so we are bound by computing power here ?

[noble pendant]

I mean for the sake of a full dungeonroute with variance added back in, yes

composite dungeonroute comparisons of talents and stuff with like one run of each of the 8 dungeons back to back takes like 16-18 hours from my experience

it's not really something that's viable for the entire public to sim their vault for

[pastel raven]

ah yes, indeed ^^

ok so thats why they opted for a "slice" at the begining

its more clear to me now thx ^^

[noble pendant]

np

[knotty oriole]

The real key observation here is that as much as people debate it, the recommendations for both still tend to be almost identical and the things that it differs by are only different by extremely small margins

I think people have this secret belief bubbling under the surface that if the model was slightly improved or more "accurate" that it would unveil some big new build or gearing approach, but that just hasn't really been the case for Rogues in any significantly meaningful way over the years.

You can certainly optimize more for ST or more for AoE as a personal decision, but no model is going to tell you that

DS is still likely the best "balanced" approach as a generic way to sim such things. Anyone who cares to do anything far more targeted at a specific damage profile has already probably fallen out of the realms of any sort of dungeon sim giving them the answer they want.

[pastel raven]

Yes ok i understand, thx for the reply Kojiyama. I was just trying to improve the caveats that DS can have in being sometimes too generic but i guess that DS paired with some specific DR (where you feel that it might differ from DS) is the most viable way to make the most viable results

[regal agate]

Sorry for the late answer, Koji already started to make a good point. (and whispyr mentioned some problems)
Dungeon slice is a very good balanced approach, and it is significantly more useful than suggestions like 10 target 40 second simulations or similar.

However i would in general see it as one data point, simming different fight styles can be very insightful for comparisons. E.g. doing a Patchwerk sim and a 5/8 target simulation can help you decide how much Single target and AoE output you trade off with talent choices.

Dungeon Slice Randomizes everything, each individual mob duration, how many mobs are in packs, packs can overlap, etc. Dungeon Slice also starts with the boss fight, making sure to have cooldowns line up well naturally.

Dungeon Routes is another interesting point, but it has its own set of problems.
It is completely static, means every run has the exact same mobs for the exact same hp at the same time.

The fight style might be not optimally supported because the APL(priority list which decides how the robot plays) isn't (typically) optimized for random sequencing of enemies and as a result mostly measure how well your cooldowns align to the specific route.
This does not generalize well.
The solution to it would be to run many different routes against each other, but if you do this you essentially just re-create a slightly different version of dungeon slice.

[indigo mist]

is it possible to vary when Boss1 dies? I think it always dies at 2:14 atm. Might increase variance a lot though with some classes lining up CDs better and others sending it into boss at the end then having downtime (although that might happen now already with 2min classes that drift a little).

[noble pendant]

it's 2:15 with variance

it's randomized every iteration within 1 standard deviation of the mean (2:15)

[strong gorge]

Imo Routes are best for simulating different routes in a dungeon and more importantly - cd usages. When to hold and when to go on cd for a full team when you're at an "MDI" level of consistency in your dungeons.
It's a lot less valuable in "trying apl changes". For that, as Koji said, if you find any improvements it's probably only due to it causing CD timings to differ and line up better with the route used and thus doesn't tell you much of anything, especially if you're running a lot of comparisons and only looking at the dps number - then that approach is frankly useless.

[chilly dawn]

The main apl changes that dungeonroute can produce are

• targeting, funnel
• prioritzing dpet (on low target time to die) and resource efficiency in aoe since the aoe pulls in route are a lot longer compared to Dungeonslice (unless of course U build aoe with patchwerk, then ignore this)
• cooldown flexibility

The main problem with Dungeonslice imo is that it's extremely rigid, maybe even more rigid than dungeonroute regarding the wave of adds. If you want to change the dungeon, you just add a pull or use a completely different one. Whereas Dungeonslice always starts with st that lasts just over 2mins followed by the same pattern that hurts certain cd patterns alot more than others

Generally I would be happy if dungeonroute would be more supported from other specs, since to me it allows for a better comparison within the specs (regarding trinkets and talents, ww sees a large difference between Dungeonslice and dungeonroute) and against each other (even tho that's really only a sidenote, we are not doing this to determine which spec sims the best). But that's just an outsider pov

That said, I also maintain a spec that does not have to manage any dots on the targets which simplifies dungeonroute alot (only have to adjust cooldowns slightly)

[regal agate]

I think the definition of rigit you use is very diffrent from what i would lable as such.

e.g. i highlighted how having a very specific pulls and static enemies is a bad dungeon generalization, while it almost reads as if this is not a concern.

to go further you highlight how 2 minutes followed by add waves/combinations is very bad for damage patterns, but most classes have cooldowns reaching just over this duration. Optimization can, for both consider add spawn timers so there isn't rly a big difrence there.

I am not saying dungeon routes is bad, but it feels a lot like trying to oversell it as a general purpose tool.

(to be clear it is a cool project and i like it a lot)

[chilly dawn]

it's bad because in dungeonslice this incentivizes holding pretty much every 2min cd (it's a considerable damage gain to use it on the aoe pack instead), which can make it inaccurate to do standard in dr; and the way dungeonslice is setup 90sec/3min patterns get murdered because always around the 3min 4:30 mark are large breaks to make such patterns much more inefficient

and then there's the whole healthpool part (being very bad at one aspect will be punished in dr more than in ds because the mobs live longer accordingly)

so we actually came to the conclusion with data that dr was reaping more accurate results

[regal agate]

i don't understand the 2 min cooldown part

if you have a major cooldown thats relevant for aoe

why is using it on pull and then not using it close to the "boss dying" a problem

i would say this is what players do in game too, so how is this considered a problem that breaks accuracy?

[chilly dawn]

it's not necessarily a problem with accuracy? I think I may not have been detailed enough, it's mostly a pain in the ass to ensure that said cooldown is then used appropriately outside of this situation (and not held in situations where you would not use it) to not lose too many casts /disalign it for more favourable dungeonslice pulls

there's only 1 specific pattern u want ur 2mins to be used in ds and all others are significantly worse

whereas this may not be the optimal numbers in a more flexible different pull situation

[regal agate]

isn't what you discribe a win for slice if we compare the two

[chilly dawn]

so ds may lead you to false conclusions

[regal agate]

because essentially dungeon routes can send any aribiary sequence of enemies at you

this means this problem is amplified

all arguments so far are applicable to both fight styles and happen in a more controlled enviroment with slice

[knotty oriole]

APL is intended to be generalized rules. There’s never going to be a truly one-size-fits-all approach to cooldown optimization. There’s always pros and cons.

You can run the same CD logic for an improvement against every different DR and get some being plus and some being minus.

Similarly, chasing gains in DS can be folly if it’s only due to specific alignment windows. But I think some aspect of alignment (knowing there is a large pack after a boss) is general enough to be worth considering.

DS’s damage patterns are not actually that deterministic though. The overlaps are random and the only one that happens super consistently is the first set.

[pastel heron]

is there a spread sheet with tier set sims out?

[finite sparrow]

fuu can prob add it to his sheet, though for outlaw the 4 set is so minimal (< 1.5% dps) that using 2 set + items with better stats are still considerable

[noble pendant]

assa is in a similiar spot, you'd want to wear tier eventually but it's 1% for the 2pc and 4pc each

[spring bough]

Has earthened been simmed for how it'll compare to other races?

[proven sparrow]

Its among the bottom in terms of sim dps. It removes your well fed and replaces it with a buff thats worse and the ability stinks

[regal agate]

Tier set Bonus:

Spec - 2p - 4p
Assassiantion - 1.6% - 3.4% (1.8% up from 2p)
Outlaw - 0.4% - 1.2% (0.8% up from 2p)
Subtlety - 2.3% - 5,8% (3.5% up from 2p)

Simulations:
Assassination | Outlaw | Subtlety

[ruby agate]

Don't forget that you get 10% armor instead of a damage stat

10% armor bonus plus potential stam or versa food buff replacement reads as "for people who want that little bit of extra thickness" and not really damage-first

[pastel raven]

Hi Fuu, thx for answering 🙂 Yes it would be a slightly different version of dungeon slice, but it would be a more accurate and realistic version of dungeon slice and that's what interests me ^^ But as Whispyr said it seems that it would take too much time to compute unfortunately, but, until which magnitude of variance does it become to take too much time to compute ? Is there a threshold ?

[regal agate]

Unsure what you trying to achieve.

[thorny fog]

sims are for parsing which gear is better not to get a number

i mean for builds maybe you could argue effectiveness in group/dungeon but that is where your choice comes in

[regal agate]

if you run world first keys, the best option is to export a lot of routes

this gives you a good graph of what pulls lead to good cooldown alignments

[thorny fog]

you first try diff cooldown configurations

[regal agate]

for general purpose, there is no accuracy gain but rather a loss

because of the static nature of the fight style (dungeon route)

[pastel raven]

i might have not clear enough, i was asking until which value of variance it wouldn't take too much time to compute a dungeon route with variance

[regal agate]

running one single dungeon route is faster than dungeon slice

its not slower

because its static

dungeon slice randomizes a lot of things, which results in the longer sim duration

[pastel raven]

yes, that's why i ask until which value of variance a dungeon route becomes to takes too much time to compute ^^

[thorny fog]

Depends on your hardware hard

if you hook up some new EPYC rigs you could have it in minutes unless you put like 2 billion combinations

but if you want to do it in your own computer compiling from source

it will take years

[pastel raven]

on a raidbots premium account for exemple

[regal agate]

the idea i proposed was to export diffrent dungeons with diffrernt routes to generalize

trying to find a good mix

but this involves doing statistics, e.g. starting with the very first question

how many diffrent routes do i need to eliminate bias

and without doing the math, i assume it will be a lot

and this opens the next can of worms

[pastel raven]

but woudln't it be better to have a litlle route variance in addition to this ?

[regal agate]

because you will have certain pulls never happen

and fundermentally

the HP model is flawed

you don't contribute equally to each pull

it is part of dungeons to figure out how your party rotates cooldowns

e.g. just a very simple example

subtlety does very weak damage outside of cooldowns

this means a hp driven model will take way longer between pulls

so it is more likely to have big cooldowns up for your next pull

while this would be a big time loss in a dungeon if you delay things

[ruby agate]

delveslice tho

[pastel raven]

yes so putting variance into routes seems to be the best option isn't it ?

[regal agate]

levy, can you add brann to the sim pls

[pastel raven]

maybe in combination to mixing routes

[ruby agate]

...can we even log brann? does that work?

[regal agate]

don't see why it wouldn't

[regal agate]

possible if you don't want to use a randomized fight style

what you can do is run multiple routes

then statistically analyze them

to have a generalized model

[pastel raven]

yes but u just said that it would surely takes too much routes

[regal agate]

but this comes back to the above question, given that the routes are limited in amount and introduce bias

if you rly want to have a "general dungeon" estimate, you would need to run multiple keys

and see how you can work around adding pulls you won't relaistically take

i like dungeon routes in idea

but it is for me a more specific tool aimed at the very top end

so i would suggest using it for this use case

[pastel raven]

but it lends results that are more like the real logs of dungeons

at least the ones i saw

[regal agate]

yes thats the idea

[pastel raven]

what are the variance that route would need to be generalized enough ? the same that in DS ? variance in number of mobs and time to kill ? (as this would account for the variance in the dmg of the group on different packs)

[pastel raven]

i mean generalized enough for a particular dungeon obviously (not for a totally general result like DS)

[regal agate]

if you want to make a custom fight style, can always go for whatever you feel fit

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/RaidEvents

^ the wiki can be of help

[pastel raven]

i don't want to create a new fight style as the dungeon route one is already what i need but i would be able to tweak it a bit

like is it possible to add a standard deviation on the healthpool of the mobs in a pull event ?

[regal agate]

dungeon routes essentially creates a custom fight script, so it is the same thing.

[finite sparrow]

Totally custom fight style is not completely doable through raidbots

there has to be some preset fightstyle, the closest would be dungeonroute but then your raid events must have a health bar etc. to comply with dungeonroute

[chilly dawn]

always been a project of mine to turn some of the raidbosses into raidevent sims

never got round to it

[noble pendant]

Yeh the problem with raid boss things is that sims aren’t optimized to play around downtime and movement so it kinda just… doesn’t work

[gaunt void]

Patchwerk is still the goat

20 years later

[thorny fog]

wax still a wip btw if anyone wants to try it

[regal agate]

had a small typo, reupload

## TWW Consumables (Food/Weapon oil/Flask/Combat potion):
Copy/Paste string to sim all consumables.
How to use:

• Open Raidbots: Advanced Sim
• paste your /simc
• paste the content of the text file below
• press Run Simulation

[finite sparrow]

yes, bubbling wax is not implemented atm

[regal agate]

did put a disclaimer in the post

[rugged pumice]

Any idea when?

[regal agate]

we will put a notice, but you can alternatively follow the simulationcraft commit log

[untold robin]

Thought I'd drop it in here as well - Shadow Focus is simming 0.5% higher over Improved Shuriken Storm for ST Sub

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aFZQGeWTWPAWcffb8nEc6g

[supple valley]

Hows the wax behave ingame if you have two, Double trigger rate, double damage, or both (unlikely)

[regal agate]

needs to be tested more. The damage does not go up and it was not obviouse if the proc rate increased

it also procs from white hits, so the tooltip is not accurate

[supple valley]

: White Melee, Yellow Melee, Generic Hostile Spell, Magic Hostile Spell in the driver so that checks out

[proven sparrow]

Seems to be neither

[supple valley]

Right i'll push this then without it doing either

which produced that

gotta make sure its aoe scaling works ingame too, a lot of things haven't been working in TWW

[proven sparrow]

More specifically it seems to not proc if its on your offhand, even if you only have one

[supple valley]

I'm not sure how to go about implementing that, so this'll have to do like this where it just only works with one, and you'll have to tell people its MH only or smeone else changes it.

[proven sparrow]

Idk just making it not stack should be good enough, it shouldnt matter

[supple valley]

yep

it'll be like 6-8minutes until raidbots rebuilds on latest with the oil. Appears to work locally but I'm trusting that generic_aoe_proc sets up the split scaling properly (which it should)

[regal agate]

oh, interessting

so it is probably not a stacking problem but just the offhand slot not working

[rugged pumice]

So mainhand wax offhand whetstone correct?

[supple valley]

yes

sims will accept the other combination but if you do that ingame you wont deal any damage with the wax

[ruby agate]

It does if the last argument is set to true, and defaults to 5 target softcap - completely safe rockets in df used it

[supple valley]

gotcha and fixed

that's on me i only searched for 3 examples and none of them used true. The fourth one did

[ruby agate]

Related: koji already accidentally merged a condition to filter the proc to poisons and white hits instead of all hits to the rogue module already, but forgot numbing poison in his poison list

[regal agate]

@ruby agate you know if the forced item level flag is already supported?

[supple valley]

I only just spotted your pr for it levy xd

awkward

is it proccing only from poisons + white, or is yellow hits also working?

[ruby agate]

Only if you manually set damage on the action with effect.average

And it's really obvious if you don't because it does 0 damage otherwise

[regal agate]

oh, so sim is correct

nice

[ruby agate]

White + poisons as far as we can tell

Didn't think we've had anyone link a non poison non-aa trigger yet

[finite sparrow]

if it's RPPM then it shouldn't matter right, it's just for correctness or

[ruby agate]

Yeah, instant poison alone is going to saturate it's 3rppm

[supple valley]

yep lemme go add numbing

[ruby agate]

So I'm not really concerned

[supple valley]

impl now is basically identical to waht you have, except i make sure its only unique because of the offhand thing

What a weird consumable

[ruby agate]

Yeah, I doubt only one working is intentional - might be tied to how the ilvl scaling was hooked up

[supple valley]

yeah

[ruby agate]

Is the bugs() condition available in the special effect module? Could be useful to still have the option to sim with two

[supple valley]

It is

I made it mainhand only, do you want me to make it scale with damage if you have two and the bugs is set to 0?

[regal agate]

haha, i need to double check the consumable string now

okay, i was lucky to have it as main hand default

[ruby agate]

I think it'd probably scale with proc rate if it wasn't bugged, given the item description? But it's up to blizz ultimately

Proc rate vs proc damage are gonna be the same avg sim DPS for now anyway

[supple valley]

Fair

It increases damage for now, it's super simple to make it do the other behaviour though.

[sacred shore]

@supple valley I see you too are a rogue enjoyer

[supple valley]

I mayhaps enjoy assassination from time to time and a tiny bit of sub here and there

[agile path]

what exactly is bugs=0 referring to here

[supple valley]

A player option in simc that changes how things sim. By default bugs is set to 1.
With bugs=1 (the default):

Sims work as they do ingame including all things assumed to be bugs (E.g. Wax only working on Main Hand)
With bugs=0:
Sims work with things that were assumed to be bugs 'fixed'. It appears sub has a lot of negative bugs so the result of changing this increased DPS.

In rogues case, that's a lot of things you'd have to go browsing through the module to find

[regal agate]

the attribut decides if bugs are active or not.

[finite sparrow]

not super useful because it broadly enables or disables whatever we assign a bug

Instead of individual bugs

[sacred shore]

could make rogue specific options per bug as well

we did that with a few last expansion

[finite sparrow]

oh nice, I would actually use that

[agile path]

I was aware of that I just meant what bugs was it fixing 🙂

[ruby agate]

rogue.outlaw.audacity_bug inc

[finite sparrow]

yepp

[rugged pumice]

So double wax is bis now?

This for sub/sin/outlaw?

[finite sparrow]

double wax is not working, it is a bug where wax on offhand does nothing

hence the discussion

[rugged pumice]

mb sry yeah I know doesnt work really double thats why I am asking what all the "bugs" mean

[regal agate]

wax mainhand / stone offhand. But lets move discussions like this to the spec channel

[ruby agate]

do note that "one wax is bis" isn't gospel while still gearing up, since wax scales with weapon ilvl (presumably - it may be ilvl highwater mark or avg ilvl in reality) - so for your current ilvl you'd still have to sim to know

[sacred shore]

if you guys need any help adding these lmk

[heavy stream]

Wax is proccing when placed in offhand (I had no other oils on MH) or is the specific issue when wax is on both main and oh?

[proven sparrow]

Ye it seems to work for some, it didnt when i tried but ive seen others. Either way it doesnt stack two of them

[heavy stream]

gotcha

[fickle aspen]

So is the wax thing a bug or is it an actual thing though?

[vast harness]

which part of it?

We don't know the intended behavior

[spiral light]

Should be a pretty safe bet to use one in MH and whetstone in OH

[fickle aspen]

Yeah, i was just curious if anyone actually knew if it was intended for it to not work having 2.

[livid lynx]

@regal agate Do you maybe know if https://www.wowhead.com/item=221882/potion-bomb-of-power is implemented?

i couldnt sim it, maybe the sim doesnt recognize it as potion?

[regal agate]

sounds like a fun option, i don't think its supported

[livid lynx]

tbf i just realized

The primary stat isnt increased with higher levels

only the dmg

and the DF dungeon gave around the same

so prolly whatever

[twilit granite]

can you add versatility food to that (the one that gives 469)? 😛
profileset."Beledar's bounty (versa)"+=food=beledars_bounty

[regal agate]

oh, did i miss that one

sure, can add

[twilit granite]

Thanks

[regal agate]

## TWW Consumables (Food/Weapon oil/Flask/Combat potion):
Copy/Paste string to sim all consumables.
How to use:

• Open Raidbots: Advanced Sim
• paste your /simc
• paste the content of the text file below
• press Run Simulation

[fickle aspen]

Random SimC question, things like this:

Are they refering to TWW PTR? Cause i never heard of VV not triggering doomblade oO

[proven sparrow]

Hes saying that sometime during TWW beta VV was included in the doomblade damage, but now on live it is not

[fickle aspen]

[native moat]

Outlaw channel didnt answer so I try here, is Void Reaper Contract undersimming when using the weapon set bonus?

[regal agate]

the set should be implemented, if you have avidence showing it doing noticable more damage consistently over more than one fight log, you can post evidence here or in the simc discord for it to get looked at.

[native moat]

Should be fixed shortly

[finite sparrow]

some relevant trinket overrides

override.spell_data=effect.1142009.coefficient=116.748345 # Sikran's Endless Arsenal
override.spell_data=effect.1142320.coefficient=97.2903435 # Sikran's Endless Arsenal
override.spell_data=effect.1142341.coefficient=64.860159 # Sikran's Endless Arsenal
override.spell_data=effect.1144430.coefficient=86.2554 # Overclocked Gear-a-rang Launcher
override.spell_data=effect.1149788.coefficient=23.349708 # Twin Fang Instruments```

[thorny fog]

the knife too they lessened the agi if anyone wants to check that one

[fickle aspen]

Wax only on offhand, its for sure proccing on offhand now. I'm pretty sure someone said that wax didn't work on offhand but i guess they might have stealth fixed it with the RC stealth fixes they did yesterday.

[thorny fog]

No we found the problem just if you die it stops working

[fickle aspen]

dafuq lol

So, die with it on and it stops working?

[thorny fog]

yes

[fickle aspen]

;s

Oh yeah, def isen't working anymore. Well that's interesting lmao

[unkempt crescent]

What happens if you un- then reequip the wax weapon?

[regal agate]

^ try unequipping and equipping it again.

[narrow valve]

reequipping the weapon after death seems to work for me

[brisk grotto]

This is awesome, thanks for sharing

[thorny fog]

yes and if you die unequip and reequip the weapon

[regal agate]

its more a question for spec channels.
But wax is basically:

• only use it on one weapon
• unequip and equp the weapon with wax again after a whipe to enssure it is active

[half portal]

#assassination message

Stealth fix?

[regal agate]

possible, needs to be tested more to confirm

[jolly wave]

tested in raid (EU), not working.
still have to re-equip weapons

[thorny fog]

same in nexus princess i can post logs had 2 or 3 where i forgot to reequip

[jolly wave]

outdpsed my co-rogue by sole amount of wax damage on ansurak kill because he forgot to rearm weapons

[half portal]

[regal agate]

can confirm, still works as before(not fixed).

[thorny fog]

Maybe we will need someone in NA to confirm tomorrow

but for now it stays like that

[hushed needle]

Why are we using it only on one weapon?

@regal agate

Ah it doesn’t stack

[cosmic widget]

how do input this?

[finite sparrow]

in simc expert mode > footer box

note that simc will pull the trinket tuning when they are added to live servers later today

[tawdry burrow]

Anyone know if this was patched after update on eu perhaps ?

[half portal]

NA as of 22:00 CST you still had to reequip if you died

[tawdry burrow]

Thanks wil need to open more bug reports regarding this it seems

[restive mica]

Guys, anyone knows if Culminating Blasphemite effect work with same gems in every slot or I need to get one gem with diff color?
My question is about that description (per unique algari gem color).

[honest jewel]

need different gems

[cosmic widget]

how do i do these updated sims?

with queen trink etc

I tried inserting it into custom apl but not working

[thorny fog]

updated queen apl should be pushed quite soon

anyway

if you are on nightly

[cosmic widget]

alright sweet thanks

[gritty socket]

Does raidbots only try to force the different gems if you tick the option or is that 0.15% crit effect just not worth it? Neither outlaw nor subtlety seem to like going for multiple colours...

[finite sparrow]

only if you tick the option. for outlaw, it could be a whole 0.3% upgrade to mix n match gems

[runic bison]

sorry but where is the option in raidbot

[merry pike]

click the gem in the gem section

and thn click always use and then click 4+ mix

itll show up

[shadow gorge]

Has anyone Tried using the Shark of Azinoth from the Black Temple timewalking?

I just looted one and am curious about it, its champion-path gear

[warm comet]

If it’s tuned like df it’s hot garbage

[gleaming kelp]

queens mandate simming incorrectly maybe? seems to outdmg what the sims say

[finite sparrow]

that sounds unlikely, remember it deals up to 50% more damage based on missing health, and has very significant variance based on critical hits

[loud marten]

this is going to sound like a dumb question, but would potion bomb of power ever be worth it if the group had a people keeping the buff up indefinitely? Would that increase group dps enough to offset the 10 people who would be using an inferior potion?

[thorny fog]

the potion makes other potions go on cd so no

[loud marten]

For the other players in the raid?

i.e. You use the normal potion and some other sacrificial player uses the potion bomb of power while the group is stacked. I would assume that would net more dps than the sacrificial player using a normal potion.

[thorny fog]

if you get hit by the potion of power your main pot goes on cd

no idea if you get efffect if your main pot is on cd tho haven't tried

[loud marten]

I just tested it with a friend, their main pot didnt go on cd after being hit by a potion bomb

[thorny fog]

oh that is nice in beta it did

[regal agate]

it would need to outdo the benefits of a regualr pution

[loud marten]

across an entire raid though I would assume it would

[regal agate]

however i don't think its implemented in simc, so difficult to have a estimate

[thorny fog]

it seems you can use both and healers/tanks get less benefit from pots

most you can do is parse the st benefit for someone

and rawdog x5 it

call it raid dps

[loud marten]

Yeah it would be a nightmare to try and see overall output

[thorny fog]

well for other dps maybe not worth but tanks likely have less use of it healers do need the mana pot unless it is not prog tho

[loud marten]

it was just a thought I was looking into after working on engineering

[thorny fog]

nice find now we just need to check if they stack

[loud marten]

from a min/max point of view there might be something but it would require a bit of coordination to be practical

[thorny fog]

not really many classes have cds every x mins just group those together and blast them on their second use or whatever but now for TC things wonder if we could at least implement the 1 hit on us

[cerulean pecan]

Doing a little bit of research at the moment, it seems our sims are still simming, with vanish+ambush combo within the APL, it seems the it calculates this as a dps gain as it thinks that currently using ambush to reapply mark (with DN up) that once you consume DN it will also use a charge of DsM, this was fixed to no longer consume the DsM stack and only the DN buff, any idea how or why our sims accounted for the bug, but have NOT changed since the bug fix two 10 days ago? Trying to fix this for an addon is all.

[thorny fog]

yea the DN bug is still in game but we expect it to be fixed as they already did it once

[knotty oriole]

Yes, was informed it was planned to be fixed quickly which is why it was not implemented.

[cerulean pecan]

No its not thats what im saying its not in game, but still sims as if it is

Our sims go like this,

Spend DsM 3, 2, 1, > Darkest Night is active, > Vanish > Ambush

The sim thinks, that during the vanish>ambush,(reapplying DsM) we are going to the spend on an evenom that will;

A: Consume Darkest Night,
B: Consume a DsM Stack going from 3, down to 2, at the same time,

This interaction is no longer in the game.

Was fixed at the same time echoing rep was fixed with deathstalker - 10 days ago

OR Is there another bug im unaware of that the sim is counting?

[cerulean pecan]

Ah i thought this was in response to Hachadino saying there is still a bug

So, the sim apl just hasnt been changed yet?

[noble pendant]

it's not an APL thing, the bug would need to be added to the core

but we were expecting a quick fix so it wasn't added in

[cerulean pecan]

Sorry i've adhd and my heads everywhere from this, but are you saying there is currently still a bug, or am i getting lost somewhere, its the part where you said we were im getting lost i think

Sorry

[noble pendant]

the game has the bug, we were expecting it to get fixed early this week since it's impactful, so it did not get added to the sims

[cerulean pecan]

So, is the gameplay loop MEANT to consume DN and a DsM, that was INTENTIONAL? As i thought that part was the bug and they removed that interaction on purpose

[noble pendant]

yes

[cerulean pecan]

Jesus, how did i get that so damn backwards

I could have sworn i had seen it wasnt meant to interact like that, the gameplay feels better that was anyway could damn, i guess i clearly missread it somewhere and screwed this up, hmm alright

[noble pendant]

the bug is a little more far reaching than just DN for what it's worth, you straight up cannot consume DsM stacks while you have DN, regardless of finisher or target

[cerulean pecan]

Yeah Ive no idea why i thought that was intended design

[noble pendant]

so if you go into an aoe pack as assassination for example, with DN up, and you ambush something for DsM, then rupture twice, CT, that mark is still sitting there on 3

[cerulean pecan]

aaaaah i get you now

[noble pendant]

it's a similar thing for subtlety as well during dance

[cerulean pecan]

Yeah that is weird actually, it literally doesnt consume any marks regardless, ok i see you

[noble pendant]

also sucks in open world when you're opening on a new target, etc etc

[cerulean pecan]

Yeah, that makes total sense, thats very strange it works that way, likely a very simple fix though, strange why it wouldnt have been fixed earlier yeah

Its like a botched if statement haha

Alright, well thank you for informing it, it was driving me up the wall trying to understand it

[noble pendant]

np

[meager nymph]

I am SO glad I came into this channel and had a read. I started noticing this last night and thought I was doing something wrong

[queen oak]

Hey, i'm sorry if that has been asked but i'm not sure how to search it.
Is there any research on a fatebound opener in the case of early similar coinflips in order to guarantee a sequence of 7 tosses and unlock the 7% agi boost early in a raid fight in order to benefit from it for the rest of the fight?

Since Deathmark gives 1, coldblood gives 2 and breaking stealth gives 2. In the case of a series of 2 or more, wouldn it be worth botching the opener in order to guarantee the buff?

Pushing this reasoning to the extreme, would it be worth doing a VERY botched opener with
First time breaking stealth toss : 2
Deathmark : 3 (+1)
Vanish : 5 (+2) edit : The vanish toss is not guaranteed to be on the same side, my mistake, i'll leave it up just in case / when i tested on dummy it didnt even toss a coin but might be bugged too bcs of dummy combat rules ⚠️
Coldblood : 7 (+2)

I feel like if it was the case someone would have most likely came up with the idea already, but I kinda want to know the reasoning behind it (I guess most likely the DPS loss from guaranteeing the 7% buff is not worth the stats gain)

[noble pendant]

this has been tested extensively and nothing major has been found

it's just strictly better to cold blood/vanish the edge case flip

you can get a little lucky and land it naturally off that like if you get 2h from stealth, the rupture flips 3h, envenom 4h, deathmark envenom flips 5h1t, vanish cold blood1 is 7h3t, cold blood2 is 8h4t

but it's kinda all hinged upon the rupture/envenom before your deathmark cooperating

you can cold blood the opener but then you don't match edge case flips

and it's just suffering

[queen oak]

ok I see thanks a lot for the answer

[noble pendant]

and it would still be hinged on rupture

[queen oak]

I guess even tracking it and maybe JUST delaying cold blood for exemple isnt even worth because of the cases where it fails

[noble pendant]

correct

[queen oak]

Damn, feels bad to not really be able to even control a slight bit of the whole thing but thank you, at least i'll stop thinking about it at night

[sacred shore]

fwiw bubbling wax had some hotfixes

[proven sparrow]

Yep its unusable on the ilvl of weapons we have right now, likely reserved for leveling only i guess?

"Target is too high level"

[karmic hamlet]

try on a weapon below ilevel 610

[regal agate]

works on a 590 item i had in my bags

the item level requirement disqualifies most weapons

[brave carbon]

Is todays Transmitter cd nerf included in sims, when running Mad Queens/a second on use aswell?

[noble pendant]

what nerf exactly? It's still 1:30

[thorny fog]

hotfix for 30 secs was already accounted for because it only affects specific timers

[noble pendant]

oh like the shared cd?

[thorny fog]

it is just more annoying to play with as you have to pop it before

[brave carbon]

yessir

[brave carbon]

gotcha. Thanks!

[worthy thorn]

Is it possible the Ritual-Knife sneakily had the proc rate increased? last week I had the debuff active 5-10% of any given fight, yesterday I had uptimes of nearly 38% on one fight. ;[

[jolly wave]

yes, its certainly possible

[muted raft]

I wanted to sim harvester's edict but didn't find any info of how the buff is implemented in the sims on the discord. I finally found that we can alter the intercept chance by using thewarwithin.harvesters_edict_intercept_chance and noticed that, on my sim, using 0.9 instead of the default 0.2 simmed higher.
My question is, is it possible to alter the intercept chance during the sim to simulate intercepting the orb before/during our cooldown and letting it pass and do damage otherwise?

[finite sparrow]

there is not a way to expose intercepting the orb through the APL

[finite sparrow]

it is still 0.5 rppm as parsed by the game files

0.5 rppm will cause extreme variance in uptime

[cosmic widget]

where is mandate custom apl?

[finite sparrow]

#1065728795455266888 message

[merry cedar]

does anyone have the data as to why siphoning stiletto is bad for sin rogue?

it looks like it would be everything that i want in single target, no?

[spiral light]

Yes we have simmed it multiple times

[merry cedar]

i used google but no such luck lol

[spiral light]

Yeah we don't talk about it

Because it's shit

[merry cedar]

is the PPM too low or... ?

[spiral light]

It's a kiss-curse effect

But the kiss-portion is terrible

[merry cedar]

yes. like the symbiosis sigil.