#subtlety

949229 messages · Page 950 of 950 (latest)

tribal blade
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based

sacred jewel
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did u timeline all of your shadowdances or what are those

short radish
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i am monkey and cannot think

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so i need someone to think for me

tribal blade
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that's it get stealthi to make the dust spreadsheet again

fossil forge
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Why tf u got bananas laying around in ur inv

short radish
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why else

fossil forge
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Wtf

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I carry greasy whale milk

short radish
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trading someone bleach is too toxic

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trading a banana is funny

fossil forge
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Wait do you remember

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Last season

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When u go tazavesh

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U could buy a boy

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Box

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When j used it monkey ran our of you

short radish
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i do not

fossil forge
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Faaaak

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Idk the name

short radish
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i wish i knew that

fossil forge
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It was on the boat

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I had it macrod in my cds

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I got it

somber sun
glacial cloak
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does anyone actually use sap in mythic+

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im doing 16's and never used it

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idk if im trolling or not

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same as distract

potent heath
random mason
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distract you can use to stop patrolling mobs

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if they don't have truesight

fossil forge
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sap in mc distract in aa

vale pine
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fun fact, you can sap certain enemies with true sight before they get in combat with you

wheat edge
vale pine
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I used it when i speed-run fungal folly

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the delve in general allowed a lot of creativity to speed up the clear

wheat edge
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yeah I also like sapping the big mobs that are part of the like "bonus" loot but dont count towards count

vale pine
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was sadly later reworked 2 times

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the spores ended up static and damage on mobs was reduced in the last iteration

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still useful, but could not cheese as much as before

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there is sadly less benefits from doing delves now

wheat edge
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I might have a small delving problem

image.png
vale pine
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haha

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to be fair, i think delves would have been a very cool speed running content

wheat edge
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I play 3 alts so I just end up doing a bunch of delves garf

vale pine
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at least some of them

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if you only select the ones with cool cheeses, would absolutely play more delves

wheat edge
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I am hoping the Labyrinth thing coming out later will be somewhat cool

vale pine
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i think blizz did well in terms of casual content

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even tho neither of these content types is for me

wheat edge
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yeah also in general, delves have gotten better with every patch that has come out

vale pine
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Loot from delves got nerfed sadly

wheat edge
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season 1 tww delves were demonic at the start where the tuning changed every day kekw

vale pine
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but outside of that, agree

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as mentioned, i did like some of the delves initially for the potential of cheeses

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like fungal folly which later did not have similar potential

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some of the current delves are "busy work"

wheat edge
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yeah it can wary a lot, my personal favorite tho is the one in zul'aman where u have to rescue 7 things, doing that on rogue is so fun

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cause you can just stealth through the whole thing

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then you have whatever the fuck the grudge pit is kekw

vale pine
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the arena one is ... annoying

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idk how its called

wheat edge
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that is the grudge pit yeah

vale pine
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ahh

void ocean
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thats one of my fav

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i like to kill everything in any delve and collect everything that is to collect, so delves that have small area are great

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grudge pit u just pull the entire pit

hazy lichen
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!fuu

wicked joltBOT
lilac stag
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@tribal blade winning meta battle dracthyr_kek

image.png
vale pine
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dk is meta, hunter isn't

lilac stag
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SV about as close to meta as you’ll get.

vale pine
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idk, arms seems to be more popular than any of the hunter specs

image.png
lilac stag
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Did an AA and the shaman didn’t hit skyfury until after the third boss. garf

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that’s not a fun time as arms.

vale pine
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lol

foggy estuary
vale pine
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Don't think thats the case tho

foggy estuary
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Myth track gear means nothing now, and prolly is one of thr reasons myth raiding has seen decline

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No? Its so easy to gear up now. Mythic raiding isnt as rewarding brother

vale pine
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think it is incredibly hard to make this point

coarse nexus
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All the best stuff still comes from raid

vale pine
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because i have no idea if mythic is played less or more than e.g. last season

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i would intuitively say more, not less

foggy estuary
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Myth gear will drop from world quest for the first time now next patch. I mean…

vale pine
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so, in order to have the discussion

foggy estuary
vale pine
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we would need to have some amount of information

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so we have evidence of the mentioned decline

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because else its just anecdotal, and as such just your own perception

hallow mortar
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i have two alts basically bis withnout seeing more than 4 bosses in raid with pugs

foggy estuary
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Yeah i get what you mean, i dont have data to support this, however i think i can make this case if i look into it.

hallow mortar
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this season is poop

vale pine
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what i can say, that is probably provable in data is that we now have the first content draught

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where there is not much to do to further increase your power gain

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thus, we see a lot of people drop out of the game

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which will also be more common because its summer

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i mentioned earlier, that my guild did not manage to get 20 players to show up on a raid day even tho we have a 28 player team

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so my evidence is similarly anecdotal

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i don't know if this is the same for other guilds, but you could potentially look at player retention rates going from how many wcl and m+ runs are created

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but in my theory, mythic loot is not a (big) factor

foggy estuary
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I believe you played long enough to have a “feel” for this, you dont have to be a nuclear scientist to know that the sun is a ball of nuclear energy in the sky, so i bet you can “feel” the game becoming more easy, and its only logical, blizzard is a company and wants to max profits.

Think how m+ was in legion bfa and even dragonflight.
No where near as easy as now.

Again, this is my personal thoughts 🙂

foggy estuary
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If you can be full mythic and not step foot in raid, why commit to myth raiding? There is some corellation, no?

vale pine
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how does this differ to crafting

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not saiyng you are wrong

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but technically what you say is

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Dragonflight and The war within had a drastic decline in raiding in general

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because crafting basically allowed you to get mythic gear without raiding

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in every slot

foggy estuary
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Yeap, i agree

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Crafting is another reason.

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I dont know if its nostalgia or im stuck there, but wow peak was legion and nothing came close ever since - for me at least.

willow mantle
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i agree that legion is the most fun ive had, but i dont think that you can solidly make the case that gear is the only, or major reason people mythic raid

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here’s max talking about kinda what im saying at this timestamp

grand viper
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I mean they made like everything easier, which doesn’t really promote longevity since people are reaching their goals faster or just getting bored with a simpler game

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Plus I don’t think causal/new players mythic raid which is what they’re trying to grow I feel

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Also this raid tier is sooooo bad imo

vale pine
hazy breach
vale pine
grand viper
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Yea but some people only do m+/raid content for the achievements like aotc/ksm

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Given how easy it was, the crests didn’t really limit that

vale pine
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e.g. to go over this season, we had delayed raid starts, very late crest uncapping, the recent weapon + trinket upgrades and with 12.0.7 another borrowed power system as well as new gear upgrades

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comparing this to e.g. legion, you now chase the gearing carrot for the entirety of a seasons duration

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while you would be done fairly fast in legion

grand viper
hazy breach
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Since there's always more carrot added next week

vale pine
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wdym

hazy breach
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Why even bother going for it, as it will be futile immediately

vale pine
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you talk about the current or legion?

hazy breach
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Now

vale pine
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oh yes, absolutely

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thats my point

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what you discribe is a form of fatique

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which is what can happen if carrot on a stick systems are done to excessive

foggy estuary
vale pine
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blizz seems to try to balance it out just enough to keep people engaged

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without burning them out

foggy estuary
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Its a tough spot to be especially after all the game history. It is after all the best mmorpg ever created, and can argue about overall best game ever, but i digress. Im not a doomer, please dont get me wrong. I love the game as long as it has a dps rogue spec ill keep playing it.

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It has seen better days tho🙃

graceful osprey
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Personally, I’d advocate for more solo player challenges and content. I like delves and the delve bosses. I’d love for more mage tower type content.

swift tinsel
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delve labyrinths come in 12.1 iirc

graceful osprey
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Yessss I can’t wait for that

swift tinsel
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but then you also get stuff like Abyss Anglers which is just...why

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dev time and effort went into that. not necessarily much time, but time nonetheless

vale pine
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to be fair, you are done with the anglers event in an afternoon

swift tinsel
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right

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which is why I don't really understand its purpose

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or why dev time was allocated to it

vale pine
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it also feels like it was a weekend project

graceful osprey
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I feel like it’s okay, but some of their side content things needed more time for development.

analog hearth
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Ds better on lura

swift tinsel
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if it had longevity that's one thing

analog hearth
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I have confirmed it

vale pine
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so would argue it isn't super polished

swift tinsel
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but I just fail to see why it came to fruition

vale pine
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more content is not always bad

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you can ignore anglers and the patch is still fine

swift tinsel
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but its essentially nothing content

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I don't get why it exists lol

vale pine
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thats fine, you are not the target audience then

swift tinsel
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but I also don't know what a target audience could even be for it

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the underwater harpooning crowd?

vale pine
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remember that delves are for most of the more hard core players

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also "why" content

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remix too

swift tinsel
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remix has plenty of rewards

vale pine
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classic and classic+ the same

swift tinsel
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that carry over into retail

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I don't think its an apt comparison between remix and anglers

graceful osprey
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What if wow had something like infernal horde from D4? Void Devouring Horde

vale pine
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both is content for collectors, both offers some amount of rewards

swift tinsel
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the only real collecting items are the pet and recolor of the diver suit

vale pine
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anglers has less reward as its designed to be finished in one evening or two

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while remix has a more rewards as it was designed to be played for over a month

swift tinsel
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idk it just comes across as very banal content for the sake of saying "you get more content more often"

foggy estuary
# graceful osprey Personally, I’d advocate for more solo player challenges and content. I like del...

Id love to see the game adopt the flex myth raid number, which plagues myth guilds at the mo apart from rwf myth guilds afaik, and more unlimited high tier content like m+ for smaller groups.

But make it actually hard challenging rewarding and impactful.
They dont need to make the game easier for everyone, just make it that every class has a purpose in that high tier content and is equally impactful.

swift tinsel
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drip feeding grains of rice when you order stir fry isn't very fulfilling

vale pine
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i found remix boring

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you grind to have very delayed fun

modern sentinel
vale pine
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ye

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same

fossil forge
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remix was very ahh

vale pine
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there was nothing exciting in it

fossil forge
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good for lvling alts though

vale pine
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you did it to get some of the rewards

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then dropped out

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if it was fun on its own, you would not see the reward as the main focus

modern sentinel
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got friend to carry me thru a 20 m+ was it?

vale pine
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yep

vale pine
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most events we get are now good for gearing and leveling

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it is a legit question

foggy estuary
vale pine
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because even my gf, who has like 30? characters

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does not know what to do with more alts

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because, initially, especially players who like to play multiple classes

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get excited for events which give you oppotunities to level fast

fossil forge
vale pine
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but there is the tripping point, you actually can't utialize these events anymore

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because you already got everything

swift tinsel
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anecdotally, there's a few people in guild who have max-level toons they play now because they leveled them in mop/legion remix

vale pine
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some of them twice or three times

modern sentinel
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hc loot useless

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kinda

vale pine
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to come back to the argument

swift tinsel
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who otherwise didn't really want to level something in addition to their one to two regularly played characters

vale pine
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my point was, most of the systems in wow are actually not that exciting or good

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but have other ways to keep you engaged

swift tinsel
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and we get a new not exciting one in the folio

vale pine
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e.g. via rewards

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i mean it works

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wow sustains for a long time now

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it wouldn't if the formula is bad

swift tinsel
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I would be interested to see metric data on the number of new players that have joined and currently play midnight

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through all 3 seasons (assuming its 3 again)

fossil forge
vale pine
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I know Dragonflight was a success in getting more players back to the game

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but why that worked is discussable

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e.g. Shadowlands was a very low point in wow

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the next xpac only needed to be mediocre to get people back

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was dragonflight mediocre, was it great, was it outstanding?

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i honestly can't tell

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but what i can say is, if it was outstanding, why did everyone forgot about the story and story characters already?

short radish
vale pine
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yes, but i legit asked players

swift tinsel
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Iridikron is coming back trust

vale pine
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in guild, friends who play at high levels, etc

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and they kinda already forgot about the story entirely

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from what i know

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TWW did not improve much over DF in terms of players and retention

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i actually wonder how much midnight changed this

swift tinsel
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they seemed to really want to entice new players, and have arguably the most active marketing I've seen in a long time

vale pine
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yes

swift tinsel
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which is why I'm curious how many new players, not just returning, were drawn in and still play

foggy estuary
vale pine
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midnight felt like a big gamble to win new players

swift tinsel
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yeah, at the risk of alienating current players

vale pine
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to a degree yes

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it seemed to me, the idea was that the loyal playerbase would not mind the shortcommings

foggy estuary
vale pine
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while the changes open up the oppotunity for growth from new players entering the game

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i don't know how well this worked out

swift tinsel
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anecdotally, there's at least four people in our guild talking about quitting the game because of the design direction its going

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meanwhile, we have zero players that are new to the game via midnight

vale pine
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i don't have any data on it, and my contacts also seemed to get less data related to this now

jagged hamlet
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i still love hte fact they think that weakauras were inaccessible to new players but downloading 500 addons is somehow better lol

swift tinsel
vale pine
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addons ended up as an interessting point

swift tinsel
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usually its just banners on wow sites

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idk if I've seen tv adverts for wow expansions between wotlk and midnight

vale pine
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i think one unexpected result of the addon purge was the instability created

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basically, wow addons ended up stable for 10+ years

swift tinsel
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I dont think I'd call it unexpected instability

foggy estuary
vale pine
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you downloaded and things rarely broke

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now, things can break in hotfixes or patches

swift tinsel
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I think it was very, very expected

vale pine
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and many of the addons are young or vibe coded

foggy estuary
vale pine
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api's are also not all as stable as before

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so the entire enviroment changed

foggy estuary
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Claude the unsung addon hero 😂

vale pine
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i don't think this was expected as a result from blizz

latent remnant
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having those vanguard dispells suddenly turned back into a private aura is funky

swift tinsel
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I mean the writing was very blatantly on the wall it would happen

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due to how blizzard went about it

vale pine
swift tinsel
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it was not a well-planned, metered approach

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they went scorched-earth and incremental backtrack

vale pine
swift tinsel
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they completely upended the addon creation and use environment

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I don't think its that mysterious that that would cause stability problems

vale pine
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like even in software engineering, its not always the case

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e.g. most websites now run on linux servers

swift tinsel
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I don't have a tech/programming background and it was very clear it was going to be a mess

vale pine
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but linux was a mess, it was less performent, less reliable and less stable

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if people know that

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why would linux become this big

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common sense would mean that we would now have almost all servers on freebsd

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as its one of the most stable, reliable and performent systems that was out there and still offers most of it

jagged hamlet
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fuu, what are your thoughts on tier sets having such large impacts on rotation. like i think it maybe makes sense if they are testing to see if something should become a full time talent etc but the thought that the spec is going to play completely differently next season without longer shadowblades and guidon is kinda cringe

vale pine
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but companies work diffrently, linux was popular in universities, and google pushed its adoption and invested a lot of engineering hours into it

foggy estuary
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Muh industry standard

vale pine
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i hope i don't get too abstratc

foggy estuary
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No no its good analogy

hoary orchid
vale pine
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2nd/3rd is usually when blizz likes to experiment

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if someothing from a tier set works well, or improves play. It def. opens the potential to bake it in the baseline

foggy estuary
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Foreseeing anything for us Fuu?

jagged hamlet
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i feel like the sblades duration probably should be a capstone or something

swift tinsel
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This set in particular is problematic, or at least losing it will be

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It’s basically the enabler for double Sectech, barring gearing more aggressively into haste

vale pine
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I actually don't know what the plan is for s2, tier sets typically focus around a core mechanic in s2

swift tinsel
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But if we play deathstalker that doesn’t matter as much

vale pine
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if we follow this

swift tinsel
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I want cool Loa themed sets

vale pine
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we would see apex talents empowered from the new tier set bonus

swift tinsel
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Let me be Halazzi

vale pine
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but apex talents seem less exciting than other systems like e.g. hero talents

swift tinsel
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Also please don’t make me play De Other Side next season

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At least without cutting it down

foggy estuary
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Maybe they will shift more into DS for raids? But hopefully fix the haste stat cap 🙃

vale pine
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dungeon pool is a funny discussion too

swift tinsel
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Apex is weird territory

vale pine
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neither of the season 2 midnight dungoens

swift tinsel
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At least for some specs

vale pine
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looks super appealing inherently

foggy estuary
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Yeah…

vale pine
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not saying they are bad, but they arn't bangers for sure

swift tinsel
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Not looking forward to Den

foggy estuary
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Cant wait for nalorak and murder row rp 🙃

swift tinsel
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Or Arena

vale pine
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especially some passages with annoying waiting times, mobs, etc

swift tinsel
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The area between penultimate and last boss in arena is going to be pain

vale pine
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my assumption is we will see some updates to these dungeons

foggy estuary
vale pine
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i don't think they get live in the way they are now

swift tinsel
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Maybe they’ll nerf them based on mO like they did to sub garf

vale pine
swift tinsel
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Lower blades duration and losing guidon

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Double whammy of gearing next season

vale pine
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guidon i don't mind

sullen hare
swift tinsel
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The implication of higher haste breakpoints is not appealing to me

vale pine
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gnu is more restrictive

sullen hare
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Is it?

vale pine
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bsd is essentially mit license

sullen hare
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Ah ok I didn't know my bad

jagged hamlet
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i would also like to see them fix how deepening works or make it retroactively increase the duration

swift tinsel
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Deepening and Sectech cdr both need to be changed

vale pine
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gnu is a infectious license, if you make changes, you need to make them openly and license them under gnu

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bsd does allow you to do whatever as long as you keep the credits so to say

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it is why e.g. playstation (and nintendos consoles unless i missremember) are based on freebsd

sullen hare
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I didn't know that. Neat

vale pine
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there are a lot of polarizing discussions around licensing in these OS project communities. I think both can have their benefits

vale pine
swift tinsel
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I agree completely

sullen hare
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Yep

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I'm not gonna claim that's what would get me back but it would help

swift tinsel
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It would be one thing if Sectech was more freely used and the hasted cdr meant something differently for the ability, but as it stands for our most-used and most flexible hero tree it just doesn’t do anything besides act as a hurdle

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And extended dance duration is problematic for the obvious reasons

sullen hare
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I mostly just keep looking at that bug tracker and it only ever gets longer lately

swift tinsel
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Like compare Sectech to something like fists of fury. Similar cooldown, both hasted, but drastically different use cases and talent/ability interactions

sullen hare
vale pine
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I like the idea of getting one charge of secret every dance, similar to how shots in the dark works

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but i think this would need other changes to the spec too

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haste as is feels a bit like gatekeeping

swift tinsel
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So the hasted Sectech cdr is basically just “you need enough haste to use once per dance” which is very poor implementation

vale pine
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you need a certain point before its "fun"

swift tinsel
#

Exactly

vale pine
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while unlike other classes

swift tinsel
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Which is really bad design

vale pine
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you don't get the benefit of going

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"woah" when bloodlust hits

swift tinsel
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It should make your spec feel better, not playable at a base level

plush roost
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Hasted cdr makes the most sense when the button is pressed on CD in a short cd window

swift tinsel
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Precisely

plush roost
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Like blade dance

swift tinsel
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Not macroed into a spell with a fixed cooldown

vale pine
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so we get the "best" of both worlds.

  • Haste breakpoints
  • No benefits from haste buffs like bloodlust, which is lovely when everyone else does
plush roost
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Should make sec tev clone damage scale with % haste

swift tinsel
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Yep

plush roost
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Or apex

swift tinsel
#

Way more compelling interactions

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Or do something with ShT overflow

sullen hare
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!bugs

wicked joltBOT
swift tinsel
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They either need to throttle stack acquisition or do something with the extra stacks

plush roost
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I still think there should be a choice node with shadowcraft that makes sht add some oomph

swift tinsel
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Right now lust is “hey wanna see how many ShT stacks I can get above 14?”

plush roost
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So u choose big dam pool sht, or lots of sht

swift tinsel
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Let it consume all current stacks

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Per finisher that consumes them

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As an option

plush roost
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Or just abilities that consume sht do x% increased dam

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Per sht

swift tinsel
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Yea that’d be pretty neat

sullen hare
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Uh. Is that Google sheets link not working for anyone else or is it just my phone shitting the bed

plush roost
#

Ur phone

swift tinsel
#

It kinda goes without saying our bottom gates/capstone need attention

plush roost
#

Just let me play goremaws rotten

swift tinsel
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But that’s a tale as old as the DF rework

plush roost
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I mean even before s3 df

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The initial tree

swift tinsel
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Idk it’s just a flat circle

plush roost
#

U kinda hard locked

swift tinsel
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Our big choice atm is 1/2 or 2/2 finality

plush roost
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Ur choice was flag or dark brew

sullen hare
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My favorite was when they robbed our capstone that they gave us the DF rework in order to turn it into an Apex

plush roost
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And didnt even fix the premed bug

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Actual yoink

sullen hare
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Nope

plush roost
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Same spell

swift tinsel
#

I honestly think our apex is cool

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Among the more interesting ones

plush roost
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Ye its fine

swift tinsel
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It would be cooler if it worked with everything

plush roost
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The optimizations around it are fun on ds

vale pine
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I think many talents also got made more boring

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danse macabre as a single target damage increase

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to me feels way less exciting

swift tinsel
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Yeah

vale pine
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the removal of cleave from nimble

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less exciting

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finality becomming a passive you don't rly play around

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etc.

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can go on

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it def. worked out to make the spec simpler

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but i am unsure if it made it more fun

sullen hare
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For all the slot machine nonsense it involved I didn't mind finality empowered ruptures at the end of the df era

plush roost
#

S2 df where youd intentionally rupture into rupture for finality

#

Was neat

vale pine
#

i think dots as a concept only work

#

if they are tuned high

#

or if they play itself

sullen hare
vale pine
#

diffrent specs design towards both

#

assassiantion is more towards the "play itself"

swift tinsel
#

Yeah rupture was too vestigial by the end of TWW

vale pine
#

shadow priest from what i understand more of a "high tuned"

swift tinsel
#

SW:P was a monster dot last I saw

vale pine
#

the removal of ruptue for me mostly feels like a necessety

#

to make assassiantion players happy

swift tinsel
#

When they spec into it

vale pine
#

its less about subtlety, but more about not having a constant comparison between damage on both specs

#

because during the last xpacs

swift tinsel
#

Idk for sub it was just an ability you didn’t want to cast during flag

#

Which, with its enormous duration, wasn’t usually an issue

vale pine
#

assassiantion players had many times, they felt bad because rupture did less damage than on subtlety

#

which made the dev team always correct it

swift tinsel
#

Pandemic’d rupture for sub lasted way, way too long to be meaningful

vale pine
#

so this fricition point was removed by simpyl purging it from subtlety

swift tinsel
#

For the damage it did

vale pine
#

and as a bonus point you can say

#

that subtlety got easier too

sullen hare
vale pine
#

which was big point for midnight in general

hazy breach
plush roost
#

Bamh

vale pine
#

haha ye

plush roost
#

Bang

swift tinsel
#

Yeah that’s a way cooler haste interaction

plush roost
#

I wish rupture was embraced instead of removed tho

swift tinsel
#

Would enjoy that on clones a lot

sullen hare
#

Blizzard would have to care about subtlety first ComfyBear

plush roost
#

They should have made a capstone where your powders progress rupture by x seconds

swift tinsel
plush roost
#

Reward setup

vale pine
#

dark brew changing rupture to shadow worked well

#

and finality empowering it worked in favor

plush roost
#

And also apex rupture could just be a second dot

vale pine
#

its just

swift tinsel
vale pine
#

rupture was not tuned simialrly high

plush roost
#

So now u have 2 ruptures to set up

swift tinsel
#

Could have had it advance ticks, add stacks, etc

plush roost
#

Could make some insane gameplay

vale pine
#

e.g. you can look back and see tier sets, new talents, etc

#

not including rupture

#

meanwhile rupture getting a buff on assassiantion baseline

plush roost
#

S3 df shadowed rupture gamba

#

I yearn for the mines

vale pine
#

haha ye

sullen hare
#

S3/4 Shadowlands was where I picked subtlety up again and I didn't mind those times

swift tinsel
#

They could even have Apex rupture act like DRW blood plagues

vale pine
#

s3 sl was a bit weird

swift tinsel
#

Each cast is a unique dot

vale pine
#

the tier set lead to a very boring gameplay

#

where most cooldowns ended up used on cd

#

not my favorite interaction

sullen hare
#

Literally just sent everything yeah

vale pine
#

dragonflight and tww added a lot of good changes

swift tinsel
#

Cleaved strikes and infinite blades uptime

vale pine
#

but also many of them got reworked or removed again

sullen hare
#

We're not exactly to the point where all of it got removed and reworked but it feels like all the cool stuff mostly did

hazy breach
#

Tbf i feel like the baseline gameplay loop of sub now with the proper haste level is pretty solid and good. Major gripe is why does it have to get jank if we get more/less haste and the discrete breakpoints for dance.
I would be quite surprised if none of the changes for the next season adds more rotational complexity

swift tinsel
#

I assume we’ll get some new gameplay “hoops” to jump through, and if they’re fun or compelling the spec will be better for it. I mostly agree the baseline gameplay is pretty solid, just lacking a little bit more depth

vale pine
#

i think the baseline gameplay loop for m+ is not good

#

for raid i agree

plush roost
#

Goremaws added to the gameplay loop

#

Lock in

vale pine
#

but its the first time i get borred playing subtelty in m+

#

and i play subtlety since 10 years or more now

plush roost
#

I wish DS was good in m+

vale pine
#

you can kinda make it work

swift tinsel
#

I think having some aoe rotational button on a 15-20sec cd would be fun

vale pine
#

with dark brew

plush roost
#

I did some skyreach 21 as DS

#

And it was more engaging

swift tinsel
#

Did you play around unshakeable drive in aoe?

#

Or just kinda ignored it

plush roost
#

Not at all

#

Full borpatyping

#

I was so eepy

swift tinsel
#

Vaguely remember talking about playing it like sin is now where you’re striking at 3 stacks even in aoe but Idr if that stuck

vale pine
#

interessting, i might try ds in m+ too

hazy breach
#

Seeing as striking once per dance as tricky is like -0.3% or something and a prio gain

#

I suspect the unshakable thing is like +0.3% or something

swift tinsel
#

Hmge

sullen hare
swift tinsel
#

I do agree though it would be cool if DS was fun/more viable in m+

vale pine
#

I think i would play DS more if we could move mark again with strike

#

i am not a fan of how mark works now

dreamy needle
#

what causes stealth to cancel

hazy breach
#

I dont know why they wanted it to be its own button

sullen hare
#

Mark was DOA even more with the changes they made to it for me

hazy breach
#

But i dont think moving the mark is annoying at all now

swift tinsel
hazy breach
dreamy needle
swift tinsel
#

I wouldn’t mind a 10sec cd in Mark moving

sullen hare
hazy breach
#

Idk depends on what context youre experiencing it

dreamy needle
dreamy needle
vale pine
sullen hare
vale pine
#

it makes sense if you only look back one iteration

#

but not if you look back further

dreamy needle
swift tinsel
#

It’s like old redirect or soul swap

hazy breach
#

Idk it doesnt, because the previous iteration of just applying it with strike/garrote

#

Is the same thing

#

Except it doesnt require an extra button

vale pine
#

well no

#

because we don't look that far back

#

we only look at the now

#

and future

#

not the past

sullen hare
#

We used to have a dagger last expansion that did it too because it was warbound but intellect and siphoned stats from nearby friendlies and that broke stealth for example

vale pine
#

so the questio is

hazy breach
#

Idk you dont have to look in the past for it

vale pine
#

is the seperate button a improvement overn no seperate buttons

#

and the answer is a clear yes

#

so its shipped

vagrant fossil
sullen hare
#

I get your logic but it doesn't make it feel any better fuu

vale pine
#

the end result is the same

dreamy needle
#

hmm

vale pine
#

but how you get there is diffrent

vagrant fossil
#

I think the best thing would have been both options. Considering they wanted Assa to use Garrote

vale pine
#

basically

#

you create a problem

#

then create a solution for it

vagrant fossil
#

So you had the mark, but if you didn't ahve a mark on a target, then shadowstrike and garrote should just apply it

sullen hare
#

The end result is me not playing DS lmao

vale pine
#

let me make a paint to explain what i mean

sullen hare
#

It's not like the end result wasn't me not playing DS

vagrant fossil
#

Not that he's the smartest guy, but Asmongold described it as "You give us a sandwich, then you shit in it. Then we complain there's shit in it. Then you give us a new one without the shit and then expect us to be happy even though we told you there was shit in it before you gave it to us"

sullen hare
#

I played DS sub one key in tww and did not like it

vagrant fossil
#

I only palyed DS sub in arenas

pliant topaz
#

holy what a banger design job

strange chasm
#

turns out doing big damage = fun

vagrant fossil
#

DS might be able to do big dam

#

And big dam is like meth

#

Addicting as shit and will ruin your life when you don't get the big dam fix

pliant topaz
#

people still didnt play it

#

LOL

plush roost
#

The gameplay loop of forcing apex on DN and chargers is fun to me

#

Apex makes ds enjoyable

slate marlin
#

my issue with ds is how cool the theme is vs what it actualy is

vale pine
#

alright

image.png
#

this might be easier to understand

#

if we ignore the "blue" part

#

we only have the happy curve

#

problem exist, problem solved

#

if we include the blue part

#

we suddenly realize

#

would at least for me explain the situation

pliant topaz
#

bro thats just all companies LOL

#

ngl

high star
#

Nba does the same with flopping and ray charles calls on the game

#

I wish theyd move away from that practice 🙁

#

the blue part

pliant topaz
#

i was about to go on another i hate msft rant but im reformed

vale pine
#

haha

#

to be fair, they doing fine for slop coding their os

#

did mostly see positive changes lately

pliant topaz
#

theyre so fucking stupid i hate them

#

i hate them so much

vale pine
#

🤣

pliant topaz
#

like did u see fabric notebooks breaking on friday?

#

im 99% sure its ai slop related

#

that shit cost us 7 figures

#

now we are gonna beat their ass

vale pine
#

F

#

It isn't exclusive to microsoft btw

#

did you see google basically removing their expensive ai plans because they could not fix their backend?

tepid trellis
#

my muscle memory was too strong

high star
#

Does ds feel much better to play than trickster?

hazy breach
#

It is more involved

tepid trellis
#

imo its more fun on single target

#

on AoE i hate it

high star
#

I don't have enough haste to try it yet. I know its stronger in st.

swift tinsel
#

Feels nice to apex DN, the double finishers progress mark faster

#

Ope

distant rapids
#

anyone have a link to DS sub build or rotation?

swift tinsel
#

Got another one

sullen hare
#

@teal coral please nuke it

#

It's crypto garbage but worse than that it's Mr beast crypto garbage

dreamy needle
#

just got puzzle box does that mean i swap to assa

sullen hare
#

Nvm ronkley ejected him into space

high star
sullen hare
#

S3 tww?

balmy mauve
#

so what talents are you guys running on ST and AoE, new to rogue here

tepid trellis
#

!guides

wicked joltBOT
sullen hare
#

!guide

wicked joltBOT
glass kelp
sullen hare
#

Dw I've slept since then too

glass kelp
#

whats the theory on vanish usage in raid? ive been pretty much using it to refill energy/combo points quick between st dance windows when i need but should i be hitting it immediately following blades on the next dance?

#

akaik its not really a gaining ability right now

lilac stag
#

woyer out of gaze pug prison kekw

image.png
glass kelp
#

finally rolled one on our myth clear friday

warm marlin
lilac stag
#

Nice. I think I need to do heroic to try to snag str trinket from Vol

pliant topaz
#

but hes in rogue jail

#

sit down pookie

#

and ask schizo for heals

lilac stag
#

imagine any of us playing rogue

#

Welcome to a month ago

vale pine
pliant topaz
#

his girlfriend must be a lucky lady

warm marlin
#

I am temporarily released

pliant topaz
#

bro just do what claver does lowkey

#

after prog

#

full send league

#

go insane

#

thats the move

warm marlin
#

I am key pushing

#

is that more or less insane

swift tinsel
#

tough call

vale pine
#

depends

warm marlin
#

mostly pugged

swift tinsel
#

okay then yes

#

mostly insane

vale pine
#

if you do it on feral, would argue, more insane

pliant topaz
#

its kinda fun i started playing since last sunday. took me like 2 days to go from 250 ilvl to 285 then got resil 20s now cant pug anymore cuz the spec im playing isnt meta

#

now its league time again ig

vale pine
#

lol

swift tinsel
#

I think we're done next week

warm marlin
#

what spec? i thought you mostly had meta classes

pliant topaz
#

i played sp

swift tinsel
#

might be doing spore on mythic, might not

warm marlin
#

oh ye thats cooked

pliant topaz
#

idk man i swear its strong

#

like sure im not top overall

lilac stag
pliant topaz
#

but my damage profile is so insane

warm marlin
#

snow does infinite damage on that spec btw

#

its just squishy

pliant topaz
#

like i did a 21 academy

#

with 3 monutes left on timer

swift tinsel
#

I kinda went off about it lol

keen dome
lilac stag
#

Oof

swift tinsel
#

so we got like six pulls on dragons this week

pliant topaz
#

but thats about it

#

i can beat most things except uhdk and dev

quick horizon
#

Hi quick question please, do we prefer to darkest night eviscerate as last gcd of dance, or build again to have ancient arts on the darkest night eviscerate but outside of dance ?

pliant topaz
#

but anywyas pugging for my specs cooked at this key range so its back to league time

warm marlin
quick horizon
#

Trying to practice on dummy and I get this situation a lot

swift tinsel
keen dome
#

oh no

#

Why do they fear the aoe

swift tinsel
#

was 3rd on boss dmg too

#

idk dude you'd think people would love add padding

#

its the same on dragon orbs

#

its one of our warlocks, a ddh, and me usually in the top 3 dragon orb dmg

dense geode
#

Must be nice bro

swift tinsel
#

its really not lol

dense geode
#

Why not

keen dome
swift tinsel
#

bc we aren't grouping orbs like at all so ranged not nuking down the ones that aren't grouped means they live really long

keen dome
#

My casual heroic guild is having similar issues except on heroic so infinitely more frustrating

swift tinsel
dense geode
#

are you progging or parsing

swift tinsel
#

progging

#

I cba to parse cheese

dense geode
#

Oh I see why that wouldn’t be nice

keen dome
#

Haha

#

Hey if you think about it every fight is parse cheese.

swift tinsel
#

yeah its frustrating

#

lotta Void Bolt dmg

image.png
#

sorry, 9 dragons pulls all week

keen dome
#

They should give us Midnight Manifestation as an ability

#

I dunno wtf it is but it sounds cool

swift tinsel
#

it does sound pretty slick

keen dome
#

"Guys, I've got my cooldowns up. I'm gonna.. MIDNIGHT MANIFEST"

#

🛌

fossil forge
#

lura p1 wipe factory gaming

keen dome
#

Tell them you are midnight manifesting

distant rapids
sullen hare
dense geode
#

P1 so chill now

#

P3 is pain

vale pine
sick lichen
#

is deathstalker playable on beloren or am I cucking the raid too hard by focusing on boss damage rather than cleave with trickster?

lilac stag
#

are you adds dead?

sick lichen
#

errr just started progress on wednesday

#

and I just watched, nothing really happened that was properly supposed to happen

lilac stag
#

I think you’re losing burst in egg phase

#

More than the adds not being dead

#

Trickster still winning boss and overall on wcl fwiw

vale pine
#

i like trickster on it more

tepid trellis
#

pretty sure DS wins on egg

#

now that its infinitely long

vale pine
sick lichen
#

hmm i'll try DS then, didnt like trickster a lot after buff-nerf

lime vortex
#

And if we play DS on Beloren, should use black powder to cleave adds or we should just focus on boss anyway ?

torn cedar
#

is dropping flawless form a skill issue or RNG boning me?

strange chasm
swift tinsel
torn cedar
#

i've got alot of times it just drops literally 0.2 seconds before sectec

#

backstab just not generating it

swift tinsel
#

sectech applies fazed/grants flawless form

torn cedar
#

yeah i'm aware of that, i just have a 13s dryspell at random where i get none from any other source

tepid trellis
#

doesent matter, you aint doing any dmg during that period anyway

swift tinsel
#

^^

torn cedar
#

well, i want 5 stacks rather than 0 for sectec xd

normal chasm
#

Between dances as DS do you just auto attack and press no buttons whatsoever after getting to the last stack of DN? Seems like you might be able to spam backstab at max combo points so as not to spend shadow tec points, I dunno if that's what people are doing or black powdering.

swift tinsel
icy helm
#

what are aura/procs that needs to be tracked?

swift tinsel
#

but you don't want to BP, that'll consume the last stack of mark

normal chasm
#

Cheers, sometimes feel like a bit of a bot just sitting there auto attacking for 8 seconds, especially when blades is nearly up and I'm holding dances

swift tinsel
#

yeah you just kinda have to ignore that feeling lol

#

bc sometimes you're autoattacking for a while

#

sub ends up doing that more often than not

lilac stag
#

Worse on deathstalkermark

strange chasm
#

!fuu

wicked joltBOT
normal chasm
#

Speaking of which - are you wanting something like 1.5 shadow dances for blades? Feels like waiting for all 2 gives you a better time after blades ends

swift tinsel
#

you're still fitting 2x dance in blades

glass kelp
swift tinsel
#

you send first dance with blades, then 2nd when it has 8 sec left

normal chasm
#

Sorry I mean as in holding dances for the followign blades, with trickster i believe having a full one and one with 10 sec left on cd was the play

swift tinsel
swift tinsel
normal chasm
#

Alrighty ty for the help! 🙂

balmy mauve
#

are we playing DS on ST and Trickster on AoE?

silver pelican
#

When they gonna bring rogue into the modern era and remove timers on poisons

sharp flower
#

Hi all - im trying to figure out how to optimize my stats better and looking for suggestions (ilvl will help too when i get the crest) I see on murlockio alot of rogues using crit/mast in neck instead of haste/mast, but that drops me down to approx 550 haste (after i use phoenix oils) and obviously i need gaze/imperator trinkets but is there anything i should change crafted wise? All crafted items have haste/mast, currently missing the belt which should prolly go crit/mast im guessing.

image.png
vale pine
#

you want a bit more haste and less vers

#

vers is basically the stat to "avoid"

#

haste you want at least 700 but can go up to 800 even

#

mastery is basically the stat to aim for after haste, crit is after

#

so "go to 700-800 haste"
as much in mastery as you can
mix with crit
avoid vers

fossil forge
#

i need to change gear fuu?

#

so over..

vale pine
#

57 vers

#

damn

#

same for me

image.png
hallow matrix
#

do we use guidon pre dance/blades as DS ? or just send all together?

swift tinsel
#

I use it the global before evisc, since the evisc after will make sure dance snapshots the haste

vale pine
#

ohh, the above only has 50 vers

#

thats fine

#

vers is low

vale pine
fossil forge
#

i just pop the trinket check trinket cd and go off at 1:29

#

Works every time

tight moss
#

is it still worth using puzzle box in dungeon when our mastery hits 1k, i thought the value of it diminish after 1380 something like that

vale pine
#

box has a bit more "immidiate" burst

#

but is essentially a 3 min cooldown

#

so unsure if the trade off is worth it

fossil forge
#

guidon better more uses Trashpandascheme

main blade
#

any uuhhh log checkers

tepid quartz
#

can DN get removed by the hero talent for DS?

swift tinsel
#

Only with evisc, can’t cancelaura it anymore

vale pine
main blade
#

!log

#

Oh shit

dire forum
#

any thoughts or suggestions what would rogue could provide in a 5 man party to become valuable like most classes in m+

vernal drum
#

!fuu

wicked joltBOT
vale pine
sharp flower
vale pine
#

ye, i realized that your vers is low

#

the bars just misslead me visually

vernal drum
#

@vale pine hey, why does the raidbot stuff showed in "character profile" is totally different from yours ? btw i counted everystat on this one and he said without buff going for :
🟣 Critique : 954
🔵 Maîtrise : 875
🟡 Hâte : 538
🟢 Polyvalence : 57

why so few haste ?

somber sun
#

its a bot

#

polyvalence Chadge

vernal drum
#

haha, vers in english sry

somber sun
#

yeah dw I understood that pepelaugh

vernal drum
#

for a bot he aim 120k dps

#

much better than 90% here i guess

vale pine
#

mastery should be your top stat in m+

warm marlin
normal chasm
#

!log

summer peak
#

How does lura work for Backstab? Do we use the from behind benefit ?

subtle spruce
#

!macro

wicked joltBOT
#

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like wowhead WoWhead or IV Icy Veins.

coarse hound
#

Guys was there an add on to get cold blood to stfu

grand viper
#

@coarse hound

sly shore
#

!fuu

wicked joltBOT
coarse hound
trail rover
#

Quick question: besides BL are there situations where you are saving the second dance in blades window to supercharge sectec or just always send with 8sec of blades left?

tribal vortex
#

In BL you don't need to save dance

#

you just send and you naturally have ST

#

maybe like 1 GCD delay?

sullen hare
#

I can't believe people hate my boy cold blood 😭

gentle temple
#

How can I track the pre potion buff in the CDM?

hazy breach
#

You cant by default, maybe ayjee or arc can

wild sapphire
#

Hey guys, as sub what buff do u pick in AA?

hazy breach
#

Pretty sure everybody should always be picking vers

shadow lance
oak grotto
#

Do you have Guidon macrod to Blades or just use them seperate?

vestal rune
#

Do not macro them

vestal rune
vestal rune
sly shore
#

deepening shadows doesn't update instantly basically

undone cliff
undone cliff
#

Or for survivability?

hazy breach
#

Vers is the biggest damage number too

#

Because 3% vers is 162 worth of stats, the other ones are 130-140 worth of stats

#

Since its 3%, not rating

#

Or well, mastery and vers are tied in sims, but vers also gives damage reduction

undone cliff
#

Ah ok. Thank you

woven ruin
#

o is it both

ashen warren
#

!fuu

wicked joltBOT
small sleet
vestal rune
#

Same same

ashen sleet
#

which; has felt fine to me