tc-subtlety

[river folio]

With shadow techniques, is sub’s finisher rule still finishing on 6+, 5+ in dance?

With Deathstalker, I found myself trying to push out finisher at 5 exactly more frequently to try to keep the Mark churn going and get more DNs out.

Also for the skipping finishers with DN, I’ve been wondering about the competing incentives at play when you, for example, enter Dance with DN. The tier set pushes us to sectec first, so that can benefit the DN, however if you do evis first then sectec, you might be able to get 2 DNs inside the dance window.

[rugged solar]

good point

6+ outside of dance seems to still hold up

[past fable]

@remote sparrow @rugged solar Did some work to simplify/clean up some of the lines (symbols/dance/vanish) and split some of them into a dust and a no-dust line to make working with them easier (since you dont need to double check you didnt screw over dust builds when trying to improve non-dust etc) as well as hopefully easier to read. A lot of the stuff i cleaned out was aberrus tier set stuff but a couple of other things as well. Also found some minor gains (~0.7%) for DB builds by aligning the cd symbols to blades rather than flag. I double checked most setups/scenarios so it shouldnt be a loss anywhere, this also includes the changes from my previous post #1065728795455266888 message

[remote sparrow]

nice thank you! i think its a good format to keep things more readable/easier to adjust

[past fable]

I tried splitting flag as well but they both ended up very similar and not much shorter than it was currently so i just skipped it for now

[remote sparrow]

Ill go through it and maybe I can add some comments too to make it a bit more readable

[rugged solar]

nice, thanks

[past fable]

Some cooking (only singletarget as of now)

• ER stuff
• TFD dance stuff
• Non-dust subterfuge usage
• Lingering shadows ( )
• Rupture
• Tea

[remote sparrow]

to track some of the ideas eleem and I discussed:

• adjust CB usage : during cds better to CB the 2nd sectech than first potentially due to 2nd sectech having more flawless form stacks + more flag stacks
• adjust Sod usage so the tier buff gets consumed on 2nd sectech instead of first sectech.
  all to be tested

[rugged solar]

oh wow, thats a lot

[past fable]

Heres a bunch of aoe changes as well, we should probably push some version of a new APL so it doesnt break once prepatch launches for people that arent using custom APLs

[ivory kestrel]

might at least want to push all the NS kill switch

[rugged solar]

ns will be removed automatically

the apl updates seem fine to me

so could push it to simc

[past fable]

Didnt have any grieftorch line and it also had tww consumes so people who were using it for live got scuffed results

[rugged solar]

perfect

[lyric anchor]

Just noticed that raidbots are using seqtech at the end of shadow dance. Is it supposed to do that?

[rugged solar]

usually not

moment, ill check

i assume it is because of cdr

[lyric anchor]

Probably, might just have been raidbots doing wonky stuff

[rugged solar]

it is less than 20 seconds between. I assume there would be a possible optimization of a delay here

[remote sparrow]

Add a condition for sod when blades isn’t active to wait until sectech cd less than 16 seconds?

[ivory kestrel]

if it is db you can add a condition for 16 or 14 secs of sec tech cdr left

so it does not enter dance

[rugged solar]

it has, but could be not tight enough

[cerulean flint]

not sure if this actually causes an issue in the sims but the tooltip for Bolstering Shadows is incorrectly displaying as the same as Poised Shadows

[ivory kestrel]

dont worry the effect is the same but they have diff ids

[cerulean flint]

Coup is giving multiple DM stacks in game but not on sims as well, not sure if that's intended though

[remote sparrow]

thats been fixed as of last night. check again with latest build

[low breach]

you mean the dm stacks or the sim?

because it still gives dm stacks

[past fable]

In the sim is what he means

[cerulean flint]

still seems to not give DM stacks in sims but maybe i'm using the wrong thing

(Just using mimiron raidbots)

[remote sparrow]

Use regular raid bots on latest build

[remote sparrow]

works in sims now

[rugged solar]

i like the icon

[past fable]

A bunch of changes since the last one, most of them in collaboration with @remote sparrow, probably not suitable for pre-patch, use the one in #subtlety pins

[rugged solar]

nice, well done

[remote sparrow]

we found a lot of gains actually! and turns out db and dust are very very close

[rugged solar]

what did you change?

[remote sparrow]

so i think the changes were in the following order....

1. when 4 stacks of escalating blades -> bp over evis until dance was like 0.7%
2. if fazed not up, cast sectech first, else coup first was another 0.7%
3. if youre at 2 stacks of escalating blade always sectech first if youre in dance was another 0.7%
4. trinket adjustments another 0.5%
5. eleem fixed some stuff that caused non optimal finishers (like 5 cp finishers because subterfuge was active even though we were outside of dance etc)
6. i think eleem fixed a lot of dust stuff
7. we dont really know whats going on but seems like in aoe, its worth to bp for dm stacks if you have tornado, otherwise not worth it.
8. we dont storm when flawless form is up

theres a bunch of other stuff from previous iterations as well for aoe with deathstalker like always consume darkest night if up.

this is basically the breakdowns right now

dust has a lot higher variance than db

trickster has a lot higher variance than deathstalker

[rugged solar]

both beeing so close is actually quite good

[remote sparrow]

well.. not really

fatal intent isnt in sims yet

so deathstalker is like 3-4% ahead

[rugged solar]

the last buff was quite big for deathstalker

so can image

[remote sparrow]

but also triuckster is under simming by about 1% because of trickster ordering of form being applied + dm stacks ordering

oh yeah and deat hstalker had some optimizations around storming in single target for ilke 0.5%

oh I guess other things, serums dead. we use grim batol trinket now

[rugged solar]

also because is not giving 3 stacks of DM ^^

(i assume)

[remote sparrow]

nah coup correctly gives 3 stacks of dm in sims too

[rugged solar]

oh

[remote sparrow]

but the ordering is a bit off. like the hits arent benefiting from the stacks

[rugged solar]

not sure its worth optimizing around it

[remote sparrow]

for the dm stacks?

it was about 0.7-0.8%

[rugged solar]

no, because its a bug

so likely to get fixed

i am certain its a damage gain

[remote sparrow]

oh I guess. but just trying to push coup earlier in dance in generaal was about 0.7%

also we tested with storm instead of bs if youre at 3 stacks

and it was uh interesting.

[rugged solar]

probably needs to be very specific

to be a gain

[remote sparrow]

it made it so that every dance opened with coup, but it breaks at 1:30 because of the rythm of how u get coups and it just falls off

so like it was find until then, but then after 1:30 its flow breaks

Ill do more testing to see if I can fix this because from dummy testing semed like a viable option

oh and inev seems to be better than sepsis for all builds pretty much

and dslice its better to take inev over tornado

[rugged solar]

its possible too tight of a condition then

[low breach]

Did you test with the rotten build dust? So take the whole left buttom? @remote sparrow ?

[remote sparrow]

maybe, its a bit weird because theres 1 dance we skip at 1:30 and send empty sod + sectech that in actual gameplay adusts this desync and fixes things. but the sim doesnt skip that so it continues desynced

if I can get it to do the skip, might be good to go again

[remote sparrow]

yeah dust builds take rotten

[rugged solar]

rotten is decent

i think the rotten bugs are not in simc tho

[remote sparrow]

its quite strong. it kinda carries dust actuaally

specially with the buff to deathstalker rn

[rugged solar]

ye

[remote sparrow]

the 40% strike damge hits hard

[low breach]

May I ask what exactly?

[rugged solar]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues?q=is%3Aopen+label%3A"Rogue%3A+Subtlety"+label%3A2-Dragonflight+rotten

[low breach]

thank you very much.

[low breach]

Hey I hope its fine I post this here. But with the recent changes to clear witnesses we do now shuriken storm in st. It does more damage then backstab or even gloomblade.

[rugged solar]

storm is def. quite good

[low breach]

Yeah and I found out at the dummy after reapplying mark you want to instantly storm again instead of bs. In dance you dont do that.

@rugged solar is the storm rule already in the sims?

[rugged solar]

yes

we have some clear the witness optimizations

[low breach]

Ok sorry then I am dumb xD

Because I thought was only valid since the changes yesterday

[rugged solar]

does not mean there are not more optimizations around it

[low breach]

Do you guys think its worth the hold onto your 3rd Escalating Blade and just shuriken evis in ST instead of backstab and black powder with 4 stacks of Blade?

[past fable]

It simmed worse when i tried it

[low breach]

By how much and would you be so kind to explain the reason the sim does this?

[past fable]

Some massive changes to dust with this APL, instead of the trying to squeeze an extra flag cast every fight by misaligning the cooldowns and vanishing to pull different cds together it seems now (not sure what changed, it wasnt worth in s3 when we checked but ) its more worth to play dust exclusively as a 90 second spec. IE always holding flag for shadow blades to be ready. This was a fairly large gain without any stat on-uses (~3%) and an even bigger gain (~6%) with the new Treacherous Transmitter trinket, which is a raid trinket with a bunch of agility on-use with a 90s cd (it does have an annoying minigame similar to witherbark's branch though).

DB also had some slight improvements to 5+ target aoe, before using your opener flag you want to rupture almost EVERYTHING, regardless of how many targets there are you rupture until theres 1 or 2 targets left without a rupture and then you send your opener. This was a very sizeable gain (~2%) and reinforces the idea that DB is for aoe while dust is for singletarget, which is definitely how the numbers are shaping up right now, but theres definitely more tuning and changes to come.

[turbid pulsar]

blessed timeline

[rugged solar]

pinned it to have the latest iteration on top

[past fable]

In theory you could still move it around for fight mechanics if you need to, but it seeming to not be the baseline behaviour is good at least

[rugged solar]

simplifies dust quite a bit

[turbid pulsar]

Yeah, we take the small Ws

[ivory kestrel]

nice to see

[river folio]

Does Vanish with WaT line up appropriately to always have a charge ready for that 90sec cd set?

[turbid pulsar]

at some point you are gonna run out

but it would take a while

[river folio]

Yeah I figured as much, just intutiviely the cd number doesn't match so it's going to happen eventually, extra charge doesn't prevent that but it does delay it

[ivory kestrel]

at around 7 mins+ if you non stop combat should be a little delay but not huge

[golden rain]

I'm curious how much this was affected by fight time if it was mostly tested vs 5 min sims. Our desync behavior in sims was already not great for weird fight lengths like 2:30/4:00 and I bet it's still a gain to desync where you gain a usage on some fight times. The existing APL was quite fragile and didn't do ideal syncs of blades/flag in lots of cases and the dust nerf probably made it worse

[past fable]

I didnt test literally every single fight length no, and dust wasnt nerfed

[lilac crescent]

0 > 1.5 > 3 > 4.5 > 6 > 7.5 all seem to be fine uses

after that you'll get some desync cos you don't have a vanish at 7.5 mins

so it's either delay to 8 mins for vanish or only use on fights that are 6-7 mins at most

[ivory kestrel]

and even in long fights depending on need you may get some natural delays and end up ok anyway even if longer

[river folio]

Yeah, a 15sec intermission x2 and you're back on track

[lilac crescent]

there are a few bosses that have really stinky timings and holding cd's may be of some value due to moving out of melee

but then DB may line up naturally better alongside that so

remains to be seen

I found on ptr that timings for even regular shadow dances were really bad, even if you held and did a lil desync

I think it's going to be quite difficult to actually compare sims to the real fights, at least in first patch

[past fable]

Some stuff weve found over the last week or so, most notably triple dance bursts as trickster dust (with 3x sectechs). Which does lead to symbols without dances afterwards, but thats just how it is.
Also added some fixes for the treacherous trinket, because its very cringe and also incredibly good numerically. Its even worth to use with DB as a 2 min trinket, which means holding it for blades, oh what joyous times we live in

[untold gorge]

How do you guys figure this stuff out? do you change the apl and run it through sims and see what the output is?

I know probably more complicated than i put lmao

[remote sparrow]

You have ideas, you implement them and test them

Then you look and see what the sims doing, what seems like it could be better, and improve that too

[untold gorge]

so in theory, there could be even more optimal rotations/build out there, but noones tested those specific APLs yet?

[remote sparrow]

Most likely, but the gains are probably very very small. Usually gets a lot harder to find meaningful gains as you go

[rugged solar]

you can infinitely optimize a apl

but as armin mentioned it gets harder as you go

low hanging fruits are quickly solved and after that you usually start to refine things or reduce edge cases

we usually test/optimize for non popular talents too, so it is less likely that there are missed options

[untold gorge]

Very cool, I'd love to get to that point

[rugged solar]

it is just about getting started

[untold gorge]

Dont think I'm smart enough tbh, I'll have a look

Cant even play the spec nevermind tc stuff

[turbid pulsar]

its just about having ideas

[rugged solar]

it looks a lot scarier than it actually is

[turbid pulsar]

the annoying part is learning how to write apl ngl

[rugged solar]

once you get the initial understanding, it is mostly about having the right ideas

there are some very complicated things you can do, and we sometimes do in the apl

but they rarely hinder you form trying your ideas

[river folio]

Does triple dance burst mean 2 vanishes during the burst?

[untold gorge]

Reading the APL in windows notepad is ass

[river folio]

Use a code editor program like sublime or notepad++ or vim or whatever the kids are using these days, set the language to python

[remote sparrow]

No trickster gives u 10% sextech cdr so u can get 3 dances and 3 Sectechs with one vanish

[river folio]

It's not python language but that seemed to give me the best coloration on the APL lines

[remote sparrow]

Just need to be a bit precise about it

[untold gorge]

amazing , thanks

[river folio]

Ah ok, then you still just treat it like a 90s spec and do 3 every time?

[remote sparrow]

Yep. 3 dances, 1 empty sod, 1 dance, 3 dances.

But it’s not exactly doable without wind fury if u wanna dummy test

[fickle shore]

if you use vscode there is a simc extension

[rugged solar]

most younger folks like vscode

[fickle shore]

looks like this

[lilac crescent]

that is one good thing about outlaw apl

every line commented

[rugged solar]

or this (sublime, markdown syntax)

[rugged solar]

subtlety too if you look at the retail one, the beta one we haven't done that to

[lilac crescent]

Yeah I think commenting every line adds accessibility to people who want to look at it

time consuming though

[untold gorge]

Is the newest Eleem one the best to go from?

nvm, seen the pins

[rugged solar]

the pinned one is the best to use for reference

you usually want to copy/paste it in
And then use a "copy" statement to test your change

[untold gorge]

Great, thanks guys

[rugged solar]

e.g. like this

copying the "builder" list
and removing the line mentioning "backstab"
to make the copy not use backstab

[remote sparrow]

with sub it just gets way too hard idk

like imagine if you have a vanish line

except u need 6 different vanish lines base on deathstalker / trickster or dust/non dust

[fickle shore]

we have the exact same

[rugged solar]

and it turns out not using backstab breaks a lot of thing s^^
sim

[remote sparrow]

how do you go about it?

[fickle shore]

# Stealth Cooldowns Builds with Underhanded Upper Hand and Subterfuge (and Without a Trace for Crackshot) must use Vanish while Adrenaline Rush is active
actions.stealth_cds=vanish,if=talent.underhanded_upper_hand&talent.subterfuge&(buff.adrenaline_rush.up|!talent.without_a_trace&talent.crackshot)&(variable.finish_condition|!talent.crackshot&(variable.ambush_condition|!talent.hidden_opportunity))
# Builds without Underhanded Upper Hand but with Crackshot must still use Vanish into Between the Eyes on cooldown
actions.stealth_cds+=/vanish,if=!talent.underhanded_upper_hand&talent.crackshot&variable.finish_condition
# Builds without Underhanded Upper Hand and Crackshot but still Hidden Opportunity use Vanish into Ambush when Audacity is not active and under max Opportunity stacks
actions.stealth_cds+=/vanish,if=!talent.underhanded_upper_hand&!talent.crackshot&talent.hidden_opportunity&!buff.audacity.up&buff.opportunity.stack<buff.opportunity.max_stack&variable.ambush_condition
# Builds without Underhanded Upper Hand, Crackshot, and Hidden Opportunity use Vanish into a builder to activate Double Jeopardy without breaking the current coin streak, or to activate Take 'em by Surprise
actions.stealth_cds+=/vanish,if=!talent.underhanded_upper_hand&!talent.crackshot&!talent.hidden_opportunity&(!variable.finish_condition&talent.double_jeopardy|!buff.take_em_by_surprise.up&talent.take_em_by_surprise)
actions.stealth_cds+=/shadowmeld,if=variable.finish_condition&!cooldown.vanish.ready```

[rugged solar]

its fine

[fickle shore]

uh read this instead that shit above is unreadable

[remote sparrow]

hmm, i see

alright ill go through the pinned apl

and add comments

[fickle shore]

i love comments

[remote sparrow]

if we are doing that, might as well break the lines

[fickle shore]

its super helpful

[remote sparrow]

because eleem didnt wanna add 6 different lines of vanish

[fickle shore]

i think its better than having a very confusing vanish line

[remote sparrow]

so just added everything into one line

[fickle shore]

that is unreadable

that was our issue

so we broke it into a few lines

instead

[remote sparrow]

yeah ill go and change it, break it into multiple lines

but the fucked up part is the apl gets way too long now

because its not just vanish

its flag

its sod

ist dance

its sectech

every one of them has 6 different conditions

based on trickster/deathstakler dust/ db

its fine, ill make it easy to read this weekend

[past fable]

I did add all those lines

Its just messy either way

And for some reason theres stealth_cds in the regular CD section because we dont care about subterfuge

Merging them was way too much of a hassle when i checked, probably not that hard but i cba

[remote sparrow]

yeah subterfuge is just great isnt it.

[remote sparrow]

ill do it this weekend when i have some time.

[rugged solar]

stealth_cds makes sense

to seperate out cd's that trigger stealth from regular ones

the stealthed sublist is a bit weird

[past fable]

Ye but when theres as many lines of dance and vanish in the regular section

[rugged solar]

it could be just "stealthed builder" instead

[past fable]

as there is in the stealth section

Its a bit weird

[rugged solar]

probably needs some cleanup then

it is why i am tempted to re-write the apl, simplifying and cleaning up where possible

[ivory kestrel]

yea it happens sometimes

also why i struggled to get some things to work inside and outside dance sometimes

[low breach]

In this APL does coup de grace work? So does it work with nimble flurry? Or is the "bug" in the apl. So it actually shows the current results like ingame?

[past fable]

Coup the grace is cleaving in the sims because its a major bug were expecting to be fixed

If its not fixed by the time relevant content rolls out we'll probably introduce the bug into simc as well, but for now no

(not to mention coup itself is a hugely convoluted and complicatedly coded spell that makes no sense whatsoever, which is why it has so many bugs to begin with)

[ivory kestrel]

yea some things are krangled together

dmg spread only makes sense in a hookah dream

[cerulean flint]

is this Baseline apl the most up to date version?

[rugged solar]

#1065728795455266888 message

the pinned one is the latest

[low breach]

how much -dps would it be if it aint fixed? I have a very hard time thinking this will get fixed and the DM stacks are just a token to compensate for this.

[rugged solar]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/diFDZ67SFLQwLfejLSbiZ9

[mental dirge]

15 black powder casts 🚬

[deep latch]

Dont mind me im here for the numbers

[lilac crescent]

Using BP to not spend coup stacks is nuts

what a timeline

[remote sparrow]

u can storm instead of backstab to not proc the 4th stack if u want

but thats a bit worse than bping

[lilac crescent]

easier to just BP tbh

[remote sparrow]

yeah its also more dps to bp

[low breach]

still like only 0.3% to storm on 3 stacks and bp just with 4?

[remote sparrow]

Probably more. Unseen blade is stronger now

[low breach]

So what is "better" to storm at 3 or BP at 4?

[remote sparrow]

Bp at 4

[ivory kestrel]

it is also easier to keep track because of resets you have less chance to waste 1

[low breach]

Is this still up 2 date?

[ivory kestrel]

yes

but most of the st things are in trickster rn

deathstalker is a bit diff because of how the sec tech cdr node works so you only double dance in theory

[low breach]

Ok ty

[remote sparrow]

I guess to share some ideas Eleem and I went over, one dust db builds might be worth looking into for deathstalker M+ specifically.
theyre about 4% behind best single target simming builds, while about 6% better aoe than these builds. might be able to get more gain out of them by dropping 2nd vanish charge. the sim is alraedy playing them with cd timers around 0/2/3:50/5:40, might as well drop the 2nd vanish charge for vigor and tea as theyre kinda dead points pretty much for it

[deep latch]

[golden rain]

I knew it

[remote sparrow]

only for deathstalker. and its a maybe

[golden rain]

1 dust swift death

[remote sparrow]

oh no swift death didnt seem great

made the rotation less awful

but wasnt great

[low breach]

Sorry I do not understand swift is suddenly now bad if we would play this build?
In full dust builds swift is so nice!

[remote sparrow]

It’s for m+ so you’re probably dropping swift for RS regardless

But also swift makes u dance too much and doesn’t give u enough cdr so u end up sending naked sods again

[low breach]

just rs feels so bad without finality imo

[remote sparrow]

how?

it litearlly doesnt even work with finality

[low breach]

oh yeah it doesnt I forgot.

Man so many stuff is buggy. Forget about it sorry

[golden rain]

In dungeon slice, yes

In practice in keys, no

Due to downtime between packs

Not sure if dungeonslice accounts for that

Don't think I've ever sent a naked sod with 1 dust and always had a dance sectech up

The other thing I do is sometimes pull blades to flag with like 5-15s left on blades, and focus on sending flag on CD. Seems to be quite a bit better but again idk if apl does this

[remote sparrow]

It’s fine in aoe yea. Breaks in single target. I’ve tested on dummies myself

Regardless though, I’m pretty sure regular db is better

[golden rain]

Do you have the latest sub apl pinned somewhere, wanna mess around with some builds (don't see it)

I just don't see how regular db can grab anything better than 1 point of dust

[remote sparrow]

Pretty sure they pushed it today

[golden rain]

As in to raidbots by default?

[remote sparrow]

Yeah

[golden rain]

!fuu

[gilded crest]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[remote sparrow]

Inev and dd are quite strong now

U have to take PV over those two to take dust

[golden rain]

Inev is ehhh

Dd yeah it's big

Why would inev get stronger this patch

Unless ur playing trickster

[remote sparrow]

Yea was about to say. Trickster really likes inev

I guess maybe a bit less important for Deathstalker

[golden rain]

Is there some latest sim with tww gear and hero talents somewhere I don't see any

Just so I don't have to make it all myself

[remote sparrow]

U can use this profile #1065728795455266888 message

[golden rain]

Nice ty

What's the DB trickster dslice talents just same as prepatch or

I assume that's the top simming dungeon build atm

[remote sparrow]

No the talent strong is for pure single target, u can mess around with different strings. There’s already some in there commented out (I think)

[golden rain]

Yeah I know that sim is, we were talking 1 dust dungeon builds tho

Or did I misread

[remote sparrow]

Oh, haven’t looked too much into actual dslice itself. Mostly aoe and single target components of it

Might look into it later

[golden rain]

Yeah in 5t 5 mins DB is def gonna win

But in dslice/real dungeons I bet 1 dust DB builds will be very competitive due to downtime and syncing up burst with big pulls

[remote sparrow]

well they’re only 1.5% ahead of db. Might be better with some optimization but yea

The thing is, it’s only for Deathstalker and tricksters like 12% ahead so…

[azure drift]

I am editing outlaw's default consumables in simc. While i'm at it, do you guys want sub to use 1 bubbling wax by default?

[rugged solar]

hard to say, the gain on the bis profile is 0.1% dps

so it seems more like something that can easy backfire

[azure drift]

will leave it alone

[rugged solar]

perfect

[azure drift]

on another note, I recommend removing use_off_gcd=1 from the serum trinket, for one I don't think any cast trinket is off-gcd anymore, and two I think it is a significant performance hog

[ivory kestrel]

you can use off gcd on serum

but still has a cast time of 1.5 so yea

[azure drift]

oh that is unusual

[rugged solar]

probably better to use off gcd then

to reduce downtime

[twilit hearth]

I was thinking about "pooling" a darkest night buff to consume it after sec tech to have that one fat number.

If Darkest night is ready AND new mark was already applied with shadowstrike, try to fire SecTec first, so DN Evi will be buffed from 4p + more DM stacks

It turned out to be a damage win on my current gear and even bigger one with default profile. Its like 0.8% but i'll try fiddling around with it

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hd9Hc4Ef6XTVC6hxNTMBwH

-actions.finish=variable,name=secret_condition,value=((buff.danse_macabre.stack>=2+!talent.deathstalkers_mark)|!talent.danse_macabre|(talent.unseen_blade&buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.escalating_blade.stack>=2))
+actions.finish=variable,name=secret_condition,value=((buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3+!talent.deathstalkers_mark)|!talent.danse_macabre|(talent.unseen_blade&buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.escalating_blade.stack>=2)|(buff.darkest_night.up&debuff.deathstalkers_mark.up))

[remote sparrow]

Hmm I think this has to do with their recent change on mark behaviour, I tried this before wasn’t a gain. Great find tho

[rugged solar]

nice

[remote sparrow]

Oh actually all it does is it pushes sectech to 2nd finisher even when darkest night is up. 0.8% is about the same change as when eleem found this too. Maybe he can double check @past fable

[twilit hearth]

i've also increased the DM stack requirement from 2 to 3, because 2 felt way too low
(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3+

i mean you get initial DM stack by activating dance, second stack for first builder in it

[past fable]

Yes its 3 locally here too, just havent pushed it yet. 2 is fine for trickster but accidently pushed it for both

[past fable]

Ye seems to be the same as ```actions.finish=variable,name=secret_condition,value=((buff.danse_macabre.stack>=3)|!talent.danse_macabre|(talent.unseen_blade&buff.shadow_dance.up&(buff.escalating_blade.stack>=2|buff.shadow_blades.up)))

[ivory kestrel]

yea have to do the clean slam

[remote sparrow]

maybe we can add a condition to secret condition based on knowing unseen_blade

[ivory kestrel]

yea that is what he did

so it slams if escalating is >=2

[remote sparrow]

but I also dont think we should put everything in the same line

its getting too messy with all the conditions

[ivory kestrel]

you can put them in diff ones

[remote sparrow]

kinda similar to vanish lines before we split it for dust and non dust

[ivory kestrel]

just make the trickster one go first

so it checks that one then deathstalker after

[remote sparrow]

yea

[ivory kestrel]

that way it also checks fazed etc

[low breach]

@rugged solar
I do not know how to sim it, but you can 100% use double on use with transmitter + let's say grim Bartol trinket. If you really min max it you can have up to 10 sec of double on use. Any idea how to sim that or implement it? The idea is to delay solving the transmitter "task" as late as possible.

[rugged solar]

what trinkets do you want to stack

trinkets typically trigger a cooldown on each other

so its hard to stack

[lyric anchor]

Its a 14 sec cooldown right?

[rugged solar]

20 secs

[low breach]

Yes and we have 15 sec to solve it

[low breach]

Transmitter and grim Bartol 2min in use

[rugged solar]

e.g. serum + transistor

[low breach]

Yeah or that same idea

Yeah but you can delay solving the task

The time to solve is 15 sec even more iirc

[low breach]

Other way around first transmitter then the 2nd on use

And just wait 15 sec and solve transmitter then

[lyric anchor]

So you want to solve it at the end, wait 5 secounds and then use your other on use?

[rugged solar]

oh, i guess

i understand what you mean

[low breach]

Yes

[rugged solar]

i don't think thats possible in the sim without changing internals

[low breach]

[low breach]

So not worth to implement? I especially think for trickster it might be worth it.

[rugged solar]

on short fights yes

[lyric anchor]

Wouldnt that mean that you are missing the agi buff for the entire opener?

[rugged solar]

but you can't overlap after the opener

[low breach]

No you prepull use transmitter anyways

Like at a 15 sec pull timer u solve it at ~8ish

Also when to solve the puzzle can also be optimized in the sim

[low breach]

Yes true.

I just think there is some damage left on the table with this trinket in sims

[past fable]

It wasnt worth it when i tried

Because theres no other good on-uses that line up well

[remote sparrow]

And playing it is aids. Could barely get it to work on a dummy during beta

[low breach]

You mean apart from the opener?

[past fable]

Ye

[rugged solar]

Quick update to Some Trinket Conditions:

Condition changes for Transmitter and Queens Mandate.

actions.items=use_item,name=treacherous_transmitter,if=cooldown.shadow_blades.remains<=2|fight_remains<=15
actions.items+=/use_item,name=mad_queens_mandate,use_off_gcd=1,if=(buff.symbols_of_death.up&!talent.lingering_darkness|buff.lingering_darkness.up)&dot.rupture.ticking&(!equipped.treacherous_transmitter|trinket.treacherous_transmitter.cooldown.remains>20)


Quick discription of the changes:
Transmitter - Just use it earlier to be able to trigger the buff before secret (simc limitation)
Queens - Use it during Symbols (Trickster) or during Lingering Darkness (Deathstalker), I also added a condition to use Transistor first if used in combination.

Gains:
Transmitter: +0.4% dps
Queens Mandate: +0.4-0.9% dps
When using both at the same time: ~4.5% dps

__ Updated apl:__
Apl with the changes is attached.

[rugged solar]

Quick update on this, adding a check to use it when the fight is about to end is a small additional gain

actions.items+=/use_item,name=mad_queens_mandate,use_off_gcd=1,if=(buff.symbols_of_death.up&!talent.lingering_darkness|buff.lingering_darkness.up)&dot.rupture.ticking&(!equipped.treacherous_transmitter|trinket.treacherous_transmitter.cooldown.remains>20)|fight_remains<=15

Quick discription of the changes:
Queens - Just use it if the fight is about to end.

Gains:
0.2-0.6% dps.

[ivory kestrel]

Is lingering darkness bug though in the trinket usage?

[past fable]

Yes, that bug is in simc

[rugged solar]

wouldn't be a damage gain to use it during lingering else.

[azure drift]

you can remove use_off_gcd=1 as it is not possible to cast it between gcds

In fact use_off_gcd=1 has the unintended effect of skipping its cast time entirely #244072792948080641 message

[rugged solar]

oh true, i forgot to remove it when copying the line

thanks

[low breach]

@rugged solar does this change anything?

[remote sparrow]

yes. makes mandate a lot worse

[low breach]

Like we are talking how much %?

Even worth taking anymore?

[remote sparrow]

it was a bit better now its probably a bit worse

for deahtstalker specifically

[low breach]

So I guess we want transmitter + x passive for it and trickster Trans + Queens

[remote sparrow]

no mandate is awful for trickster

it was only good for deathstalker now its noy good for deathstalker either

[low breach]

Ok 👌

Ty

[turbid pulsar]

considering the way queens mandate is used as deathstalker dont see how that changes does anything to it

[low breach]

So we just use it still during lingering?

[turbid pulsar]

yeah you would

that buff lasts for 30 sec after blades end

[low breach]

Ok 👌 still makes it a bit more tight imo

Like gotta use queens at the last seconds of lingering

[turbid pulsar]

blades lasts 20 sec

so unless im clueless and the talent does not function as advertised

the change shouldnt do anything

[remote sparrow]

it does unfortunately.

with 20 sec cd you could get it during lingering darkness 3 times

now u can only get 1

ill give you rough timer ideas

[turbid pulsar]

the math aint mathin

[remote sparrow]

first cast is roughly 26-27 seconds (means the trinket is up at 2:26-2:27)

2nd blades cast ends at 1:57ish

u can cast the trinket 1 second before lingering goes away

but after this change, u cant cast mandate at 26-27 since 30 sec cd

so u miss the 2nd windo

similarly, if a boss timer is like hard enrage 6:30 like kyveza, u cant do a 6:30 anymore (u could before), now it has to be 6:40

or u send it outside of lingering at 5

regardless, u could do 3 in lingering. now u can only do 1

thats 60%

[turbid pulsar]

shift cds by a few seconds and you are still able to get it off in lingering (which is very likely to happen inside of raids anyway)

[remote sparrow]

kinda, but like the boss you would probably consider this the most is kyveza

and problem with taht fight is that if u dont hold cds

[turbid pulsar]

princess is getting nuked from orbit

[remote sparrow]

u can get one more set at exactly 6:15

if u delay even a few seconds, u lose ane entire cd set

[remote sparrow]

as in, nerfed? or boss dies before enrage?

[turbid pulsar]

nerfed lol

[remote sparrow]

maybe

[turbid pulsar]

no

[remote sparrow]

its just so unfrindly for melee

[turbid pulsar]

not a maybe

without defensives on every charge you die

[remote sparrow]

and u cant feint

AHAHAHA banger boss

[turbid pulsar]

yep

[remote sparrow]

its okay, elisveness surely great

[low breach]

Elusivness

[turbid pulsar]

everything on that boss currently one shots you

[low breach]

Gotta use then stammina gems 🤣

[remote sparrow]

not if you have 25% vers

outlaw giga chads were right

someone stop guy

he cant keep getting away with this

[turbid pulsar]

thats the vers i have as sub

charge still does 4.2mil

[remote sparrow]

thats not in execute range though

you just natty live then get topped

[turbid pulsar]

there is ticking damage

• a dot that does 1.2mil a tick after it

[remote sparrow]

yea the dot will execute if u dont get isnta topped

i think p3 is gonna be a nightmare like this

u cant even top anyone

[rugged solar]

sounds very targeted at subtlety

O.o

[ivory kestrel]

they did a sweep on trinket cds and things they also fixed kiss of death with other on uses and slapped changes to it

no idea if it is documented anywhere

before antidote was on using trink now antidote is on jumping

[low breach]

That was my thought. So any idea how much of a nerf it is?

[ivory kestrel]

the nerf itself wont affect overall boss performance likely but in some situations you may want to delay cds a bit

like stealthi said before

[low breach]

That will change imo to much and overcomplicate trinket usage

[ivory kestrel]

sub tax

[low breach]

Someone smart should sim it

[rugged solar]

probably none at all

transistor triggers its cooldown when you use it

so you have 12 seconds of extra time

[turbid pulsar]

^

[low breach]

Ok 👌 ty

[rugged solar]

will still re-evaluate the trinket conditions quickly

[ivory kestrel]

only thing that changes is likely fringe cases where you cant use it at the end now

[low breach]

Ok I should then start tracking lingering

[ivory kestrel]

yes also what armin said you just look at trinket cd

[rugged solar]

Slightly more relaxed Trinket condition to adjust for shared cooldown adjustments.

actions.items+=/use_item,name=mad_queens_mandate,use_off_gcd=1,if=(buff.symbols_of_death.up&!talent.lingering_darkness|buff.lingering_darkness.up|equipped.treacherous_transmitter)&dot.rupture.ticking&(!equipped.treacherous_transmitter|trinket.treacherous_transmitter.cooldown.remains>20)|fight_remains<=15
```__Gains:__
~+0.3% with transmitter + queens

__Updated apl:__
Attacked to this message.

[twilit hearth]

do you guys have any idea how impactful is that DN bug is? 1-3ish %?

[rugged solar]

around that yes

[low breach]

What exact bug are we talking about?

[twilit hearth]

when you have DN buff up, you cant consume any marks from hero talents

so we have way fever DN procs during the fight

[low breach]

ohhh

ty for info yeah noticed that

[twilit hearth]

and using sec tec while DN is up is prob a dps loss now (didnt tested, feelycrafting)

[lament ivy]

Why can't you feint ? It's during burst so bye bye damage?

[remote sparrow]

It doesn’t work with feint. Counts as targeted

[rugged solar]

^ just copy/pasting the apl because i accidentally copied a gear string with it

[rugged solar]

even tho this is a bit offtopic for this channel, showcase on how to use a custom apl:

[past fable]

The mandate APL is now default on raidbots, no need for a custom APL

"but i sim lower with the new default rather than the one fuu linked"

• Yes thats because in the fuu one had mandate being used off-gcd, which is not possible ingame so its slightly less (0.3-0.4%)

[minor lantern]

Sims with the APL in the latest build appear to have fewer uses of Mandate. It looks like it may be holding for Lingering Shadows every time, whereas the custom APL was lining up the first use and then sending the 2nd on CD, allowing for a 3rd use in a 5 minute sim.

Latest SimC (2 casts)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cQTdxTJ5dCFVS8iDDpSMTu

Custom APL (3 casts)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5YR3z3gekaJFhw4ME4hK2W

[rugged solar]

the custom apl uses the trinket off gcd

eleem changed it, because it can't be done in game it seems

thats why its slightly worse in output

[past fable]

Nah hes partly right, it uses like 2.1 times instead of 2.6 that it could with a small change

Its like 0.2-0.3% rather than the 0.8% the sims shown above

But ill change it

[ancient jolt]

yo do we have an idea of what our dps look after 0.5 patch ?

[remote sparrow]

not yet. Supercharger isnt in sims yet.

and its also bugged with shadowed finishers in game

[ancient jolt]

bug with rogue never seen those live oh wait ... actualy we dead xd

[sly nexus]

I have no idea what the apl is doing here with mandate. It makes no sense. It goes at 34, then instead of going again at 2:34, it holds for another minute but not to get into a lingering window, but just to randomly go again at 3:34 (3 minutes later exactly instead of 2).

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cQTdxTJ5dCFVS8iDDpSMTu

[past fable]

Lingering isnt up at 2:34

[sly nexus]

it's not up at 3:34 either.

[past fable]

It is

[sly nexus]

I see it now

[past fable]

#1065728795455266888 message

[sly nexus]

I mean if it's a two minute cd, and you hold for 3 minutes, you have delayed the cd by 33% to gain a 30% damage buff

does the math, math?

I guess on some kill times it would

looks like you go at 30, 2:30, then you want to go at 4:30 but cant because its time for treacherous, so you hold for that lingering and go

[ivory kestrel]

Is there any way to check supercharger if it resets on boss combat begin?

like enter an old LFR in ptr?

[rugged solar]

it should, the first and second cp might stay active

[ivory kestrel]

yea that was what i wanted to check because on normal combat you can prepull symbols and it stays

possibly for a rupture and sec tech

[coarse laurel]

According to the spell data changes it should just be the 1 and 2 buffs, but 3-7 should reset on encounter start

[ivory kestrel]

Will try this weekend a bit but seems like even if it does not work for raid bosses it will be quite good for dungeons

[twilit hearth]

i've been through weekly droptimizer sims and noticed that something is off in APL

it turned out to be that i had some random custom APL i've been messing with a week ago

did resim without custom APL input and the default APL were lower than my apl with bad rupture in dance

Edit: the gain was because of this #1065728795455266888 message

[low breach]

What did you change in the apl?

[twilit hearth]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/j8qpT6pcRah5cF7SPoVxpe
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tPS1mwdSBb4EzVyK8ECCVg

[twilit hearth]

idont remeber exactly, need to compare

i know that i've noticed that default APL is firing off sectec as second finisher regardless of having DN buff up or not, like there, tried to do something about it, but i suck at APLing

[past fable]

#1065728795455266888 message

[twilit hearth]

oh i forgot bout this one

ty

[twilit hearth]

uh, i found a minor dps win (+1%) by doing an /cancelaura on darkest night buff at 8+ targets during shadow dance

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/r85A5jXXcLYoLThtzMiyGb

keep DN up only when we are about to use Evi to extend S&D

in APL

# Executed every time the actor is available.
actions=stealth
+actions+=/cancel_buff,name=darkest_night,if=buff.slice_and_dice.remains>12&buff.shadow_dance.up
actions+=/kick
# Make sure Slice and Dice is always active
actions+=/variable,name=snd_condition,value=buff.slice_and_dice.up

Do an Evi before rupture to extend S&D if its about to run out

actions.finish+=/secret_technique,if=variable.secret_condition&(!talent.cold_blood|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>buff.shadow_dance.remains-2|!talent.improved_shadow_dance)
+actions.finish+=/eviscerate,if=buff.slice_and_dice.up&buff.slice_and_dice.remains<=12&buff.darkest_night.up
actions.finish+=/rupture,cycle_targets=1,if=!variable.skip_rupture&!variable.priority_rotation&spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=2&target.time_to_die>=(2*combo_points)&refreshable
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=!variable.skip_rupture&buff.finality_rupture.up&(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains<=3|buff.symbols_of_death.up)
# deathstalker bp

+1% assuming this one is the default M+ DS setup
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e1gV3PbNaU3GMZnKJTYwN8

please someone doublecheck it, it sounds too cursed to be used in game

[rugged solar]

interessting idea, i don't like the thought of using /cancleaura macros tho ^^

[rugged solar]

11.0.5 APL Update/Rework

The 20th Anniversary Patch removed Shadowdust, the removal means a lot of the APL optimizations around Dust are no longer relevant.
The new talents Supercharger, the additional dynamic from Death Perception and lower cooldown of Shadow blades are quite noticeable changes.

State of 11.0.5 Simulations:
We cleaned up the old apl initially, which lead to a workable baseline.
However, I started to do a completely re-implementation of the APL around a week ago to re-evaluate assumptions/decisions we made when creating the old APL.

The result is, we currently have 2 APL's with the cleaned up version being superior in most cases.
The new APL is in a excellent state, given the short ~1 week of time we (Eleem, Armin and Me) now worked on it, but there are certain talent combinations or scenarios i haven't had time to look at which would need more attention.

As such, i recommend checking the TC channels frequently to stay up to date.

[rugged solar]

Cleaned up apl (old - cleaned up):

New implementation:

^ this was the latest change i did today:
Changes:

+
actions+=/variable,name=shd_cp,value=combo_points<=1|buff.shadow_techniques.stack>=7|buff.darkest_night.up&combo_points>=7|effective_combo_points>=6&talent.unseen_blade
~
actions.cds+=/shadow_blades,if=variable.maintenance&variable.shd_cp&buff.shadow_dance.up&!buff.premeditation.up
~
actions.stealth_cds=shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_cp&variable.maintenance&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<=24&(buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=6|buff.flagellation_persist.remains>=6)|fight_remains<=10

[ivory kestrel]

Is there any way to check how many first dance procs we would need to overtake wm?

for slice it seems quite easy to recommend it but for st it was quite close last time i checked

[rugged solar]

I think koji plans to add a apl condition for it

it is with current implementaiton 1% behind

so could int heory be a option

i forgot to add it to the pin because it seems like a interesting question

[ivory kestrel]

yes just to have a parsing thing because i recommend using it the gameplay loop is very good no need to have krangled time on opener and in dungeons that will help but then we will have the TANK KEEPS PULLING people so

[rugged solar]

the talent is flawed in design

[ivory kestrel]

the duration is too long

it irks me

[rugged solar]

the 6 second timer requirement would need to go for people to start using it

as long as its there, it is to use stealthies words

DoA

[ivory kestrel]

not really lots of dungeons have that timer problem is also lots of dungeons dont

[rugged solar]

the talent could be good even in simulations

but it comes with a lot of research you need to do to know where/when to utialize it

as such, its not an obviosue benefit to play it and ....

i don't see people using it

[twilit hearth]

Wax is not bis anymore? profile from APL is using 2x whetsone

[rugged solar]

thats just the default

wax is probably 0.2 or 0.3%

[twilit hearth]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dbvQd86SJzSSXshEeQERL9
forgive me Lord for what i have cooked

EDIT: IT HAS BEEN HOTFIXED!!!1

# Combo Point Builder
actions.build=shadowstrike,cycle_targets=1,if=debuff.find_weakness.remains<=2&variable.targets=2&talent.unseen_blade
-Hotfixed, not working anymore
-actions.build+=/shiv,if=debuff.find_weakness.up&((buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.premeditation.up)|!buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.darkest_night.up)
actions.build+=/shuriken_storm,if=talent.deathstalkers_mark&!buff.premeditation.up&variable.targets>=(2+3*buff.shadow_dance.up)|buff.clear_the_witnesses.up&!buff.symbols_of_death.up|buff.flawless_form.up&variable.targets>=3&!variable.stealth

[past fable]

Gotta make sure it actually works ingame to begin with

[twilit hearth]

yes, of course. Had fun doing it anyway

will delete if it wont work tomorrow on NA

[remote sparrow]

Good catch, we can def have a more optimized version for it that doesn’t waste a dance gcd/rotten stack. We’ll see if it’s in tmrw

[twilit hearth]

actually, when let sim to use shiv as a first global in dance (with premed) it was a ~0.5% more than simply "use when not in stealth or dance"

DM stacks are real

[remote sparrow]

I’m assuming that’s because outside of stealth it’s using the supercharger stacks on non dance finishers

Not dm

Like shiv damage is very low and strike + rotten is very strong, dm wouldn’t make up for it really

[twilit hearth]

the best case would be to use it somewhere just before symbols/dance, but we will see tomorrow

lets go for 1.560 kek

[fickle monolith]

how bad would it be if you, say, moved that very first symbols to on pull

so it would buff a shadowstrike and a vanish shadowstrike

instead of a shiv cast

[rugged solar]

best use might be just close to symbols

you can stack supercaharger

so can start each symbols cycle with 4 stacks

[fickle monolith]

hmm, does this possibly make finality value go up

so we don't even worry about rotten

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/294LwrzjF1Y1L7sMC6RLAa nope it is still dismal even with a lot more buffed finishers

[rugged solar]

I think best would be to wait for the patch tomorrow to get confirmation of the bug still existing

if thats confirmed, we can look to optimize it in the sim, but it is probably fairly easy

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/h1hR64AAvQK3UVJ1cMrHHc

thats just using it beofre symbols, its not perfectly optimized

just re-using the symbols condition

builder = lettuce's condition

[past fable]

Shiv does not give supercharged

[remote sparrow]

is ptr back up?

[past fable]

Yes

[remote sparrow]

oh nice nice! im assuming no bugfixes

[past fable]

Probably none, only checked the shiv stuff

[fickle monolith]

that's probably for the best

[shrewd sage]

this is on US release also ?

wait with the shiv bug we are doing more than sin LMAO

[rugged solar]

ptr had a update in the night from yesterday of today

eleem tested it after, i also double checked earlier today

we saw some hotfixes too, the new talent (thrill seeking) is now implemented.
It chanegs nothing on subtlety, because all it does is give outlaw 2 grappling hooks

its unclear if we see more chanegs/bugfixes but we will know soon™️

[shrewd sage]

bugfixes probably but changes dont think they would do something drastick a few hours before release

shame honestly

would have taken anything just to at least do more ST in raid

than sin

even if it meant only slightly

[rugged solar]

detahstalkers mark fix would be big, but i don't expect that one

[visual blaze]

The prio the casters over anything for bug fixes unfortunately

[rugged solar]

We should discuss it in #subtlety

but i do think there is some spaghetti code behind deathstalekrs mark

so a fix is not easy

[remote sparrow]

i like how we've fully given up on shadowed finishers bugfixes. like darkest night version, or supercharger version or follow the blood version or singular focus version, take your pick

[rugged solar]

i plan to re-check all bugs within the next week (when i get time)

so lets see, maybe something is fixed

[remote sparrow]

ill check the major ones when patch goes live in Na

[rugged solar]

oh nice, please report back on it

[low breach]

is fleshing knives still in?

[rugged solar]

just to have the latest apl here too, should be soon on Simc, Eleem made a pull request just some minutes ago.
Changes compared to the previous version:

• Cleanup of Trinket conditions (by eleem)
• Small update to use strike more intuitively with vanish/stelath (by me)

[rugged solar]

possible

is NA already live?

[remote sparrow]

not for another 4 hours ish

[remote sparrow]

no bug fixes that i could see

[versed condor]

Is there a reason that the sample ability log in the sim doesnt use cold blood inbetween shadow blades? I presume it's probably minor but it's missing a use inbetween each blades right?

[remote sparrow]

I think coldblood has a "only if in dance" condition, and it might ebe that it burns through all dances before cb is back up and afks for 50 seconds until next cd set. but in later sets at 1.5mnin + it probably does use it

[versed condor]

Ah that does make sense, I did have a glance through and it wasn't using it inbetween any cds, even the later sets past 1.5 min

[ivory kestrel]

yea there is a thing we might get some wins with the 45 secs after CDs dances

after 1:30 so it sends a natty sec tech with nothin

then again when it gets CB back with dance and SoD

[rugged solar]

Small update

We found some gains by improving symbols handeling.

actions.cds+=/symbols_of_death,if=(buff.symbols_of_death.remains<=3&variable.maintenance&(buff.flagellation_buff.up&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<8|!talent.flagellation|&buff.flagellation_persist.up&talent.unseen_blade|cooldown.flagellation.remains>=30-15*!talent.death_perception&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<8|!talent.death_perception)|fight_remains<=15)

Changes:

• More strict Symbols use with flagellation
• More leeway for symbols use for Trickster

Impact:
Simulation

• 1% Deathstalker
  +0.6% Trickster

New apl:

^ based on a change from eleem

[past fable]

^ Note that this isnt some gameplay shifting change, its just moving the sim closer to current gameplay

[ivory kestrel]

Any things on the CB usage

[rugged solar]

wdym

[ivory kestrel]

Making a condition to not use secret tech if CB is less than 10 secs or 8 migt be a good thing it happens on the fourth dance and also after cds a bit on the 2 mins or so that it sends sec tech then holds cb until flag instead of using it with a dance

[remote sparrow]

I can check that in an hour sure

Good idea

[twilit hearth]

i noticed that trickster likes crit waaay more than DS and ran simple droptimizer for it. it looks like that ansurek ring is the bis now? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/87ws6nDJJNDuD6y9tzAEwS

[rugged solar]

possible, at least seems like an upgrade

[twilit hearth]

aside from that gear sim above, I found a minor gain (~0.2%) by doing black powder instead of Evi outside of cds when

• coup is ready
• sec tec cd is below 13 sec
  https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4TbEUbwSAmifeYTsknwPm3

actions.finish=secret_technique,if=variable.secret
# Maintenance Finisher
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=!variable.skip_rupture&(!dot.rupture.ticking|refreshable)&target.time_to_die-remains>6
actions.finish+=/rupture,cycle_targets=1,if=!variable.skip_rupture&!variable.priority_rotation&&target.time_to_die>=(2*combo_points)&refreshable&variable.targets>=2
# Direct Damage Finisher
-actions.finish+=/black_powder,if=!variable.priority_rotation&variable.maintenance&variable.targets>=2&!buff.flawless_form.up&!buff.darkest_night.up
+actions.finish+=/black_powder,if=(!variable.priority_rotation&variable.maintenance&variable.targets>=2&!buff.flawless_form.up&!buff.darkest_night.up)|(!buff.symbols_of_death.up&!buff.shadow_blades.up&!buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.escalating_blade.stack=4&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<13)
actions.finish+=/coup_de_grace,if=debuff.fazed.up
actions.finish+=/eviscerate

there might be some more room to improwement, because i saw use use order on some sims going like symbols -> BP -> (build) -> Sectec

[ivory kestrel]

supercharger can be a bit interesting to do things with yea

[twilit hearth]

when i did some raiding yesterday it felt very nice to keep using coup after sec tec

having to press shadowstrike when you have 4 stacks already + unseen blade reset from sectec is a pain though

[rugged solar]

we had a delay starategy in before, but sounds plausible

interessting indeed

[ivory kestrel]

yea i always prio getting sec tech on cd if coup is up

the cdr adds up

[remote sparrow]

it seems like an incredibly rare occurance actually but there might be more there

[twilit hearth]

I've put together the APL gains and droptimizer gains. Ended up with a nice, round number
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iRvEbzqpJoEmkhNC4exMFz

ovinax trinket thou

[ivory kestrel]

ovi nax trink did climb a lot i talked about it for a bit the other day

[twilit hearth]

also, switching embelishment from ring to offhand is some margin of error gains too, it looks like the new sub scales with stats a bit better than before

[remote sparrow]

pretty sure its simbait ngl

[rugged solar]

the egg you need to stand still

you move too much on most figths to utialize it

[ivory kestrel]

no you dont need anything special but be a mind addled drone

any combination of 20 11 is fin e

you can stay put and adad adad

or move all the time and stay still sometimes

but i would not play it tbh for like 0.x%

[lyric anchor]

Feels like egg trinket makes shadowstep a dps cd

[twilit hearth]

egg is like 0.2% compared to contract from kyveza

no way a sane person would play it

[remote sparrow]

good to also double check embels

with lens vs silken vs ascension

seems like stats are more valuable now

[remote sparrow]

okay quick check dusk is 0.2% off of bis

dawn is 0.4%

ascension is 0.2%

fascinating

[balmy linden]

So embellishments really don't matter

[rugged solar]

they are all rly bad

[remote sparrow]

realistically dusk might be bis then

since it atually does something in m+ vs the other ones

[twilit hearth]

if you get some more mastery over vers then dusk should be even more valuable

[remote sparrow]

maybe

[steel jasper]

Something weird I noticed while simming was that the APL is casting sstorm right after vanishing in the opener rather than casting sstrike as Deathstalker. It's probably a minimal difference since it only happens at that one point, but I was wanting to check it out just in case, but the linked apl in the pins seems to be outdated (updated 7 months ago) - is there an updated apl link I could grab? Thanks!

[past fable]

Dont need a custom APL, the default is good

Yeah theres practically no difference between the storm and the strike, weve just opted to leave it out because fixing it adds a bunch of text to the lines

But its frequently asked about so ig we should change it anyway

[modern fern]

Any APL for the 11.0.7 ring?

[remote sparrow]

not yet

pretty sure it wont change anything thho

[modern fern]

[rugged solar]

the effects are not gamepla impacting, so there is no apl change needed.
The ring also seems quite meh.

[scenic schooner]

hi, how do i force a target swap in sim apl?
i want to try if it would be a gain for deathstalker multitarget to just keep alternating targets and ss to apply new marks and getting clear the witness buffs.
so durning shd: strike, finish, storm, finish, swap target, strike, finish, storm finish.

[remote sparrow]

your 2nd builder (the storm) would apply FW to all other targets so oyu dont need to target swap. Fuu did some testing a while back, on 2 targets its worth to keep up FW on both targets only as trickster. I tried it for 3+ targets and it wasnt \worth it.

the thing you need to remember is, strike hits first, then applies FW. so the damage you would gain on your cleave from trickster on the other targets because of FW needs to be worth the damage loss from striking a target without FW, which it wasnt for 3+.

you can look at the APL lines and see how fuu does the 2 target FW spread. Pretty sure he has a comment on it

My initial guess also would be that its not worth it to do this as deathstalker. striking in aoe means a lot less CP income, which would mean less finisher damage. I dont think CTW is strong enough to make up for it

[scenic schooner]

my idea is not for fw tho, its to get the "clear the witness" buff and proc it multiple times

[remote sparrow]

yes, the CTW concern is my last line of comments

the FW was for trickster stuff, and that theres a line for it in the apl by fuu, u can just play with it

[scenic schooner]

okok ty

[scenic schooner]

okey tested arround with this today, its actually a decent upgrade.
change is to swap targets and stike to reapply mark "early" to proc CTW

gains:
ST talents:
3 targets: +5.7%
4 targets: +8.5%
6 targets: +6.9%
dungSlice:+5.2%
AOE talents:
3 targets: +4%
4 targets: +6%
6 targets: +2.7%
dungSlice:+1.2%

Still behind trickster in dungeonslice, but 5% ahead of trickster on 3targets

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5SKLjZ5mM2A25gW5YAWo5f
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hS7nonXnfGKSDxd3JAps3p
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3P6FfxPCDqJPuzyUcF1BMn
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/17xXbcFrt3EFVv8BGMjHm3

[remote sparrow]

ill look into it a bit more in detail but something seems off.

just looking at a baseline and the changes, the increase in damage done from CTW is about 3ish %

but singular focus damage is 2% lower as well

mark damage is like 3% lower

like it seems like ont he baseline its not even storming, bp damage is alos higher on the change

my guess is, its a weird sim and its actually not aoeing properly

idk ill look at it later

[scenic schooner]

okey could be, i got the base apl from github

[rugged solar]

AoE has some room for improvements, good job, will take a look at your changes later.

[past fable]

I think the main thing is that since the huge BP buffs the eviscerate with DN just sucks

So doing this lets you use more BPs as youre not forced to eviscerate to maintain the mark

But idk theres something weird because it loops around to being +-0 again at like 8 targets for some reason, when it should be just better all the time, ill look into it more

[remote sparrow]

I think thats because of CP defecits no?

this thing is striking more than storming if im not mistaken

so once youre gauranteed saturated, it just falls off maybe

but also nice catch about the bp thing, I wasnt sure why it was higher, but your explenation makes sense

[past fable]

Not sure why singular would be lower though

[remote sparrow]

wait Im actually super confused about the logic here. In the changes, storming with ctw and 2+ targets is higher, above strike cycle

so if it has CTW it will storm over strikign which i correct, which means it only ever strikes what 2 times in dance? maybe 3?

because if u strike a new target, it gives you ctw so your next builder youre storming.

I think singular focus is down because of this

because your finisher consumes mark, you have no mark out now, but you have ctw, so you storm, so you lose 2 seconds of no marks being out, so all of the damage from rupture, the finisher that came from storm->finisher isnt going towards it

unironically this reduces your uptime on the mark if im not mistaken

[past fable]

Those lines made it stop using tornado at all, thats why it wasnt as big with more targets

[past fable]

I made it only do it during blades, thats another win at all target counts

So overall this is a pretty sizeable gain (~5%) in aoe cleave scenarios, but i must say it feels terrible to play

To actively work against your "big payoff spell" with the hero talent, and you get annoyed with shadowcraft procs because it makes it so you have to eviscerate instaead of BP

[scenic schooner]

ya that was the idea, adding those lines that way was the easiest way i could think off to implementing it

[scenic schooner]

oh, compleatly missed this ty

[past fable]

actions.build=shadowstrike,cycle_targets=1,if=debuff.find_weakness.remains<=2&variable.targets=2&talent.unseen_blade|!used_for_danse&!talent.premeditation
actions.build+=/shuriken_tornado,if=buff.lingering_darkness.up|talent.deathstalkers_mark&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=32&variable.targets>=3|talent.unseen_blade&buff.symbols_of_death.up&variable.targets>=4
actions.build+=/shuriken_storm,if=buff.clear_the_witnesses.up&variable.targets>=2
actions.build+=/shadowstrike,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.deathstalkers_mark&!debuff.deathstalkers_mark.up&variable.targets>=3&(buff.shadow_blades.up|buff.premeditation.up)
actions.build+=/shuriken_storm,if=talent.deathstalkers_mark&!buff.premeditation.up&variable.targets>=(2+3*buff.shadow_dance.up)|buff.clear_the_witnesses.up&!buff.symbols_of_death.up|buff.flawless_form.up&variable.targets>=3&!variable.stealth|talent.unseen_blade&buff.the_rotten.stack=1&variable.targets>=5&buff.shadow_dance.up
actions.build+=/shadowstrike
actions.build+=/goremaws_bite,if=combo_points.deficit>=3
actions.build+=/gloomblade
actions.build+=/backstab```
Is what ive come up with for now. Its roughly 5-6% for deathstalker in pretty much all aoe scenarios. Below is the full APL with this part included

But like i mentioned above it feels really scuffed and unfun to play with so hopefully we see some adjustments so we dont end up needing to play like this

[remote sparrow]

what you mean? the hero talent is so well thought out and well designed! they really care

[ivory kestrel]

tornado is so krangled

imagine if you could cancel aura DN

[scenic schooner]

removing the condition to do this only durning blades was a gain for me for aoe, but weirdly a loss in dungeonSlice (+0.5% to +1.3% depending on targets and -0.4% in dungSlice)

[past fable]

Whats "aoe"

I checked 4, 6 and 8 targets 5 min cleave and it was 0.5-1% gain

[scenic schooner]

did sims for 3 5 and 10 targers

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4AbcQGUwnwGCihG7tBjYFV
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hR5sWwBh4JzjjtPDCgpMTF
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sq1AEWyFxvnXoKv1cX1yzu

[past fable]

I guess that was before i moved nado, and it probably let through some nado casts

Could also be different talents ig

[past fable]

Yep its the rotten making the extra strikes better

[scenic schooner]

did koji do implementation of how we assume the tierset is gonna work? or are we waiting for it to be fixed till he adds implementation?

[remote sparrow]

usually wait till its coherent atleast

right now its kekw meme on ptr

[scenic schooner]

ya, i know xd

after so many years blizzard still manages to surprise us

[remote sparrow]

ngl fam thats on you! I wasnt the least bit surprised

i woulda been surprised if it worked with shadowed finishers properly though

[river folio]

fool me once shame on you fool me twice, uh, can't get fooled again

[remote sparrow]

that has never happened outside of 11.0 tier

[scenic schooner]

oh i was expecting something to be broken, but not everything lol

[remote sparrow]

fool me three times, shame on you again. youre clearly taking advantage of someone who easily gets fooled

[scenic schooner]

fool me for 8 years straigth... i think there is something wrong with me

[remote sparrow]

fool me 4 times, plot twist, u fell for my trap

fool me 5 times, shame on me, u clearly knew i was bluffing and was fulled the 4th time too

fool me 6 times, shame on society, they cant let you keep getting away with this

but also regarding tier, the tooltips vague. is evis/bp supposed to proc the 15% per cast or per damage instnace? right now its damage instance for both sub and sin.

rupture in aoe deletes all stacks for sin

bp in aoe insta drops all stacks for sub

coup counts as 6

evis counts as 2 etc etc

[scenic schooner]

do we know that coup counts?

[remote sparrow]

its 6 eviscerate hits

so it should count atleast right now

[scenic schooner]

it doesnt proc other evis shit tho

whats intended and what will actually happen is gonna be worlds apart tho lol

but well, guess i will have to wait to test the compleatly degen cursed shit i had in mind

[remote sparrow]

its pretty simple why its like that if youre aware of how its coded. basiclaly is it proc'd on the evis cast or evis damage instnace. tier seems to be damage instnace, since coup proc 6 evis damage instnaces, it should proc it 6 times

snd is on evis cast, so no proccy

[scenic schooner]

ahh okey, makes sense

[coarse laurel]

I’ve been really busy recently but hoping to stub things in on the weekend even if stuff isn’t 100% yet

[scenic schooner]

okeyy thx koji

[rugged solar]

nice

[ivory kestrel]

dont worry it still does not work correctly with the shadow things

so we dont even know which ones will be bugged yet even !

time to make a bingo of the shadow dmg things and see if we can score

[crimson vault]

i thought this one got fixed, no?

[remote sparrow]

prob, dont know

[ivory kestrel]

best to ask in assa chat we dont really follow it day per day there were some fixes 1 or 2 days ago for sub at least

[sly nexus]

does dark brew and lingering shadow get impacted by the winning streak procs?

[remote sparrow]

🔮

tier doesnt work so who knows

[low breach]

first steps it seems to work a bit with bugs said fuu. from 0-4p is ~12% and from 0-2 is ~5.5%

[rugged solar]

there are still some problems in the implementation take any sim with a grain of salt

[low breach]

yes doing that

also apl is not really up to date or not been testing by trying to rupture instead of bp or evis outside of cds

[low breach]

you think it will be more?

I think 12% is already pretty decent imo

[rugged solar]

will likely be higher, but the bonus might get nerfed too

[lilac crescent]

also going from 4p to 2p2p to 4p

unless those numbers include that

[past fable]

Posting any numbers about tier rn is completely pointless as the set doesnt work properly

[rugged solar]

^

[remote sparrow]

^ the current implementation (while bugged in itsself) is also a guess of what we think the final tier is going to behave like.

since tier in game is also bugged

[ivory kestrel]

Found for more consistent tier set krangling spread and not having to sit on and risk losing stacks when they are high it is better to move the dance after first round of cds for trickster the 30 secs or so one(DS cant really do this one because of CDR but might try and see how it is after moving it)

to the 60-70 place instead of using a SoD sec tech there you would use it after it comes back on pull

that way you also dont have to use snd or refresh rupture more than once in between dances in the whole 45 set to cds in 90 secs

[low breach]

Can you further explain? So its about keeping winning streak right?

[ivory kestrel]

it is so you dont waste a lot of time after the 45 secs dance to 90 secs using any finisher that can reset winning streak

remember in 11.0.5+ we just used a SoD+ sec tech there but that can reset stacks

so we move the dance at 30 secs to there and if we reset the stacks with the SoD+ sec tech at 30 it is whatever

as you will eventually get them back for the 90 secs one

[low breach]

is that simmable?

[ivory kestrel]

didnt really have time to try diff apl things but it is a general idea because on dances after the 90s one we kinda do this anyway but every 2 sets you recover 1 extra dance

it would be kinda like 2 - 1 1 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 1 2

a bit of a headache to try and do it same as the CB thing to make it use it on second sec tech in cds and 1 time in between

it just krangles always

[ivory kestrel]

@rugged solar @past fable tried to make above work but it only kinda works for first set but second one krangles it again idk if you can try and see. What comes to mind is putting it so it goes more off CB cd and also use dance if flag has xx secs of cd left and you have almost capped dances like what would happen at like 60-70 if you skipped the 30 secs one

[faint yarrow]

quick, question, i'm looking at the APL specifically this line:

actions.build+=/shadowstrike,cycle_targets=1,if=talent.deathstalkers_mark&!debuff.deathstalkers_mark.up&variable.targets>=3&(buff.shadow_blades.up|buff.premeditation.up|talent.the_rotten)

Is there a reason i am currently ignorant to, to cycle deathstalkers mark with cds up or should this just not be a cycle?

[fickle shore]

its so you never proc dn in aoe

[faint yarrow]

oh boy, well now i know, thank you.

[ivory kestrel]

if you have shadowcraft ready you also change at 2

to not pop the mark or use strike with full cp

[cunning ore]

@woeful skiff

[shrewd geyser]

profileset."nerf"+="override.player.spell_data=effect.742089.ap_coefficient=0.19"
profileset."nerf"+="override.player.spell_data=spell.1218143.max_stack=8"```
If anyone wants to sim the nerfs beforehand

[rugged solar]

👍

[low breach]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ahTH9xMEco1QTVGzKcs2K2'
Sectech nerf is 1.1-1.2% and tier nerf is 1.6% roughly 2.7% overall nerf

[rugged solar]

The pin in #subtlety has a sim with a comparison

[oak dust]

Hiya! I'm seeing this line in the APL actions.finish+=/rupture,if=talent.unseen_blade&cooldown.flagellation.remains<10
Now I don't play Sub at all, so this is probably not an issue for common talent builds, but this will always be true if you play trickster without Flagellation. I assume adding &talent.flagellation or |!talent_flagellation would be what's intended?

[past fable]

You are correct, but running without flagellation talented is not really a thing

[oak dust]

Aight, no worries then! 😄

[zenith anvil]

Was wondering whether "The First Dance" extra 4s dance duration would make sending a backstab worth it in ST since the gain in 6% dmg due to Danse Macabre would apply to 4 more spells and the opportunity cost of using a backstab would be relatively less since the SS would account for less of the total dmg within that initial dance window. Also would this change how many targets you initially Shuriken Storm at even if we arnt using Black powder at that target count yet.
Mainly a question for M+ i guess.

[remote sparrow]

I think I tested this a while back, and it was a small gain. but that was for 11.0.5, not sure about now. Can probably check later today after work

[rugged solar]

a very primitive test shows it to be a gain on 5 targets
> Simualtion <

but if you go to higher target counts, it seems to get more neutral/worse

interesstingly also holds up without tfd

[zenith anvil]

hmm okay thanks for checking. im asumming ST never worth then

[rugged solar]

hmm i don't know

possible

haha

[zenith anvil]

and guessing SS would still be 2nd gen since premed on ss is more worth?

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dbJX41hpSY8efHfQ4G5mDF

🙈

[zenith anvil]

[rugged solar]

there is a certain irony, because it was not worth it in the past, but possible for that to come back

[remote sparrow]

seems like a much bigger gain than when i tried it in 11.0.5 btw

it was 0.2% ish back then

[rugged solar]

it was neutal in best case when i tried with the apl rework

the tier set possibly pushes it ahead

would need to look a bit more to refine the condition

[zenith anvil]

ayo free dps !?!?

[rugged solar]

oh wait

i need to put in the nerfs

let me quick sim with these

[zenith anvil]

how did yall learn to do this btw?

[rugged solar]

okay, still holds up but not that big
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ux4VDZSWto1NVc68KVEAp5

[rugged solar]

it isn't too hard, the apl is mostly logical conditions

the https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ActionLists

wiki is rly good, so you can find a lot of information there

but outside of that, its just about getting started

i do this for quite a while now, started when raidbots was not a thing ^^

so we had to run the simulations locally on our computers

[zenith anvil]

damn how long ago was that

ill have a look round the wiki thanks for the link ^^

btw do you make any of your own weakauras? wondering if you have any links for that too

[rugged solar]

Legion

i was also one promoting raidbots and trying to push people to use it early on

because i thought it made simulating a lot easier ^^

[rugged solar]

you can use !wa in #subtlety

i create my own weakauras but other sets are great too

i know le puts a lot of work into her set, and it has a lot of fancy functionality

[zenith anvil]

bless, could not imagine a world without raidbots ngl

ah i was wondering moreso on how to get started making my own weakauras with custom functionalities and the like

[rugged solar]

you could start with the templates and work from there, but maybe ask le for advise as mentioned shes is rly good with weakauras.

[zenith anvil]

okay will do thanks

[mellow quartz]

is it normally good procedure to put your modified call at the top of its respective list when comparing Copy's?

as almost a brute-force to get sims to run it through that condition first any time it may arise

[rugged solar]

putting the backstab at the top ensures it to be triggered first when reaching the list

[mellow quartz]

just noticed you put the backstab one at the top of yours, and zac had me put the storm/toss call at the top of the ones I ran for 5cp dance builders

ah gotcha, I thought so

[rugged solar]

good practice would be to name the profile with something more representative of the change, like "backstab in shadow dance".

[mellow quartz]

Yeah that's typically what I've been doing

make it intuitive

[rugged solar]

i just default to test, force of habit

[mellow quartz]

I think I had something like "Storm at 5cp in Dance" or something like that

[rugged solar]

we had a ptimization like this

but lets check

[mellow quartz]

also I don't see used_for_dance defined anywhere in the apl on the github, is that something behind the scenes in simc?

[rugged solar]

restricting it too much seems to be not worth it

[remote sparrow]

did we ever check general backstab during blades condition btw?

[mellow quartz]

wait are we backstabbing for danse again

[rugged solar]

i don't know, but i can check

[low breach]

Its only worth with tier set fd?

And also worth up till 5 targets?

[rugged solar]

seems to be worth it with more tagets.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nNQECxipt5GgtTTQoBcEnR

[remote sparrow]

but not in st?

[rugged solar]

we already backstab in blades

in single target

look

same on one target

is not a gain

[split crystal]

Is that just in blades or with premed?

[remote sparrow]

oh right right

[rugged solar]

but it makes sense with more targets, because you keep inev for longer

[remote sparrow]

sorry me brain no worky worky

[rugged solar]

actions.build=backstab,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&!used_for_danse|!variable.stealth&buff.shadow_blades.up

[remote sparrow]

need a 2nd coffee

[rugged solar]

is the condition

basically:
use backstab if it wasn't used in dance - during dance
if not in dance/stealth use backstab during blades

[remote sparrow]

alright well, thats a pretty noticable gain on aoe we found atleast. nice

[split crystal]

How does it look to always backstab in dance on single target with premed?

If we’re backstabbing with blades it seems logical to use it with premed too imo

[rugged solar]

i mean you only have premed once

so it wouldn't do anything diffrent

[split crystal]

Yeah for the Danse stack outside of blades

[remote sparrow]

how is this line positioned compared to storm for 2nd rotten proc? like is the dance sequence in aoe -> backstab -> storm -> strike?

[rugged solar]

the line is just at the top, we would need to see if moving it further down is a gain

so it will always trigger first

moment ill create you a cast sequence quick

[remote sparrow]

I think in a normal dance you have to just backstab first for premed. but during blades maybe a better idea to strike first for rotten, then storm then backstab?

[zenith anvil]

so this means bs instead of sstorm during blades outside of dance?

[rugged solar]

posisble, it isn't that simple

backstab is basically to word it a bit more modern

the wettest of all noodles in terms of output

then further you advance in dance, then worse the damage trade off gets

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/twj3pVGS5gew8SaDhoGxVH

[remote sparrow]

yeah, im thinking it kinda has to be before sectech

[rugged solar]

here is a quicksim with the apl

[remote sparrow]

so pretty much always first.

[mellow quartz]

esp for trickster for fazed spread

[rugged solar]

it currently does something like this

which sounds not bad

[remote sparrow]

but that brings up a new question mr @rugged solar. considering youre rottening a backstab -> finality might now be better then

[rugged solar]

lets see

[split crystal]

Gloomblade might be worth looking at if we’re backstabbing in dance too

[turbid pulsar]

credit to eleem

[mellow quartz]

1/2 finality was performing well in pre-nerf up until recently

[remote sparrow]

eleem and I share the same brain cell

but his part works faster

:c

[rugged solar]

ye, seems to be marginally ahead

[remote sparrow]

poggies!

[mellow quartz]

[remote sparrow]

cool maybe we can share these then when we're done with the testings! pog

[remote sparrow]

is this 5 min single target sim? just saying use premed on backstab and tfd over wm? cuz thats disgusting for how bad wm is then LMFAO

[low breach]

wait when was that again tech?

[past fable]

Why say many word when few do trick

actions.build=backstab,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.premeditation.up

[remote sparrow]

I think his logic was to also backstab over storm in aoe while blades is up, and outside dance

assuming trickster i believe but yea

[past fable]

But we should be in dance for all of blades?

So why would we backstab over strike except for the stack

[remote sparrow]

yeah thats what i thought too. dont think the extra part ever gets executed.

[split crystal]

As we’re casting more backstabs with damage amps, has anyone tried speccing gloomblade instead of replicating shadows for single target?

[remote sparrow]

I doubt the extra damage of gb matters tbh

also im a gb hater so idk

[split crystal]

Tier gives bonus to shadow dmg too

Just a thought

[low breach]

To gloomblade too?

[split crystal]

yeah extra shadow dmg per winning streak stack in dance

[past fable]

Seems like its fine, if you want to grief your aoe possibilities for no payoff you can

[split crystal]

Thank you for checking, I’ll definitely be using rs with those numbers now the bug has been fixed!

[rugged solar]

you are right:
Mine:actions.build=backstab,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&!used_for_danse -> 62 chars
vs.
Yours:actions.build=backstab,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.premeditation.up -> 68 chars
(you fooled yourself, just joking tho)

should do the same tho^^

[rugged solar]

thats easy to verify, lets see

[past fable]

Is the last second of every blades

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/29vXadNnGEEJSA68MXUAC5/simc

its 2.5 executions in the sim, so rare

Its interessting to see the optimization come back

[rugged solar]

can confirm this, its mostly when blades runs out looking at the sample sequence (last 3 sec or so)

[ivory kestrel]

So i just came home likely we may go back to stab in in tfd dances and maybe finality instead of rotten?

[rugged solar]

finality is in the same-ish ballbark

so the diffrence is not that big

still interessting to think about

[ivory kestrel]

i already saw tfd favoured a bit more mastery than usual

so finality makes sense kinda

[mellow quartz]

is there a notable difference to bs for danse for 2nd sectech in flag vs in all dances while playing Rotten?

i.e. with The Rotten - play first flag dance normal, then bs just before 2nd sectech to still spend rotten on strike

[rugged solar]

makes little diffrence
Sim

almost cuts the amount of backstabs in dance by 2/3

before

[mellow quartz]

thanks for looking into it!

[rugged solar]

no problem, it wasn't very complicated ^^

[modern fern]

So bs in dance is worth it and will swipe rotten to finality?

[mellow quartz]

if I add use_for_danse to a line, does that mean it will just cast that ability once in shadow dance?

[rugged solar]

yes

it is a check to know if the ability was already used to generate a danse macabre stack

[mellow quartz]

gotcha, I figured but wanted to make sure

[celest nimbus]

hmm, I noticed that sub apl is still using effective_combo_points

which can make you for example use sec tech with only 3 CP if you have a supercharge

but strangely, fixing it didn't yield a gain

I'm confused

[rugged solar]

thats correct, you only care about absolute combo points

[celest nimbus]

here's a 3cp sec tech

seems very strange that this can be good

[past fable]

My guess is that its really good for coup

[celest nimbus]

maybe some additional effort is required here

[past fable]

Possibly

[celest nimbus]

force 6+ cp for sec tech for example

maybe allow coup at very low cp

[rugged solar]

moment ill do a quick check

[past fable]

But like if youre at 2 cp with coup outside dance. You would risk proccing extra unseen blades before reaching 6+

And sending at 2 is already fine efficieny wise

Since its effectively 7

[celest nimbus]

both outlaw and assa apls got rid of effective_combo_points at least

something is a bit fishy

[past fable]

Assa was pretty much +-0 with effectives last i checked

[rugged solar]

forcing it to be 6+ cp is no gain - sim

^ apl line

[celest nimbus]

I’ll look a bit more later

I guess it only happens outside cds really anyway