♿│accessibility-discussions

[ember umbra]

Could you team up with 1 on discord either flow farm or they tell you where the flow is… Im happy to help if your in Europe

A bit buggy in first round if I had chat open (on twitch) but I really love it, it could be a fun game to keep with fun rewards and 1 more Way to win random items Maybe needed in quest🤔

[chilly shale]

I'm doing so much better at it once I reread the rules more closely and noticed that when going for suit instead of three of a kind it had to be 1 of each. I spent so many games wondering why my pair and a spare never counted. 😛

[fair willow]

Hotpot isn't working well with my anxiety. I've seen more than one person complain about people that use their timer up, and now I am anxious about how much time I spend looking at cards. :/ I've only played 4 games. I'm not comfortable with the cards or the controls yet. So worrying about the timer makes it all very un-fun for me.

[ember umbra]

Aw Im Sorry to hear, guess they want farm tickets fast, I love to play with you, if that could help… if we Can.
Ah just checked wrong region

[woven knot]

Sadly, I'm in North America

[ember umbra]

Oh to bad, I hope some One Can help you

[static wolf]

oh I'm sorry to hear that, I do think that's a pretty small minority of people fortunately, but of course they are a vocal minority. my ign is same as my user here, if you want to add me and play when I'm in game, I don't mind people taking their full time!

[wispy iron]

We should have a codeword to put in the chat in-game. For all accessibility group people(🤣)

So that we all hollar out: purple elephant, and we answer back, then we can group with people in-game that has an understanding of our issues ❤️

Wow my English is bad today, I'm sorry ! I hope you guys still get where I'm going with this:p

[oak valley]

You can always play with me! Im Na and I was nervous with the hotpot mainly not knowing how to play but once I figured it out it’s easy and fast 🙂 ❤️

Oops lol 😂 I pinged the wrong person

[ember umbra]

Im all in for that… and we Can balance each other out to
Shorter easier to spel Maybe

[wispy iron]

Yeah it was just an example 😅 but it would be nice to have a word we could just shout out, and anyone who knows and is able to, can join in/assist/just aid in some way 🙌

[ember umbra]

Lets do it lets find a Word… prefere if easy to type on switch
And Yea if we get that i be Running to help if I Can

[static wolf]

This is unrelated to the card game, but I just wanted to shout out for controller support (specifically my wired Xbox controller) they've added a lot of rumble- including shakes with each nibble on the bobber. This has helped me a ton with fishing because the rumble is so much more reliable than my eyes missing a nibble or mistaking other motion for a nibble. It's another one of those things they don't put in the patch notes, but is very helpful for accessibility

[ember umbra]

Fishing with out the rumble would not be posible for me, it was there always on switch … its on of the reasons games like this I prefere with controller… thats its just easier on my hands

@wispy iron about Word Sunflower? As that Also conect to sunflower laynyard and Maybe there even is a sunflower icon for chat for easy aces 🌻 and if not Maybe we Can get Them to ad 1

[obtuse jacinth]

colorblindness mode when ;-;

[chilly shale]

What areas of the game does it currently impact?

[ember umbra]

What would help?

[unique crag]

for one, seeing what ore a rock is is probably difficult if you cant distinguish colours as good

(heck, im not colour blind and i still mistake a bunch of them)

[chilly shale]

I get caught up on the stone/iron ones regularly especially the small ones. That isn't just color, that is bad model design.

Same with palium actually, hit the right time of day and palium and stone seem to look a bit too similar.

[ember umbra]

Good point so do I

[ember umbra]

Yup until you right up on it, Maybe palium could have some Sound or shimmer… but then we might need sliders for that or to turn it on of…

[hoary heron]

There are also multiple things in the Temple of Gales that are camouflaged or in shades too similar for good discernment though that also impacts non color-based visual impairments. I can also imagine some challenges with certain crops looking too similar. Or challenges seeing the circle on the map for a quest and needing the ability to change that to something more distinct.

[unique crag]

tbh i wonder if having labels might help more for ores - a pop-up (maybe with button/option to toggle on/off) that says what resource youre looking at
handy for bugs etc too since some are palette swaps

for hunting items in temple, im reminded of the feature in dragon age inquisition where you can press a "search" button and it highlights hidden objects/put a marker on the minimap hud briefly
that would be really handy for hunting down those collectables

[chilly shale]

Eh, don't know about the "Here I am!" markers...but a high contrast alt vision mode for "Tracking" things might be nice? Have all environmental doodads just kinda fade out and everything interactable in a sharper contrast to it so you have to search but it will still be very clear when you look at it?

[ember umbra]

Oh thats interesting ideas I like Them

[ember umbra]

Well if it Can be togle on of and only in a specifik distance

[chilly shale]

Does the switch have any available buttons still for a quick toggle on it? Because a window popping up when you get close I can see really messing with things like peoples aim if they were trying to chase a bug and got too close to a mining node as they went after it.

[unique crag]

id worry that fade out/high contrast would risk causing issues with motion sickness or photosensitivity, so id definitely want something less visual-effecty for those reasons personally

[chilly shale]

And limiting the toggle to only when the tool was out...might work, not sure how irritating it would be to have to switch to the tool just to check if it is worth going for the node/animal.

If the highcontrast mode only works when standing still?

[ember umbra]

True… hmm not really it would need be a setting thing… Maybe x is free when just running around

[unique crag]

theres a button to toggle crop fertilisers right? is that one used for other stuff too?

[chilly shale]

That was a hold not a toggle I think? And awkward to use if also running around? Or can it be set as a toggle?

[unique crag]

if not i think itd make sense since itd be a similar kinda "press to show details" use case
(this is all hypotheticals either way but that feature seems underused for non gardening mechanics!)

i think it might be just hold only but honestly i think they should add a toggle option like running has either way! i know many folks have issues holding buttons down so its a good QOL change

(long slowmode makes discussions tough waow)

[ember umbra]

Lots of things like this need be in settings… as what help some might hinder hinder others.

[unique crag]

yeah, for sure - though the fact that running has toggle vs hold etc options is a good precedent for some more of the hold-button tasks getting more options!

[ember umbra]

@unique crag Long slowmotion Also hard when on mobil snd dyslexia… as I often prefer post small bits as I Can keep up with it

[chilly shale]

And throws me off constantly as I am used to the hold to run and keep forgetting it is toggle...which is great when I remember as it is so much easier with the toggle...I am just so used to hold... 😛

[eternal skiff]

Replying so I can pin this for later

Also real quick, @ people with issues reading/seeing, are the fonts in Palia good? Like, easy to read? Or should there be another more legible option?

[eternal skiff]

One thing I did notice too, is the tools wheel, on the Switch, and I assume this is also an issue on PC for any controller-user: I find the placements of tools pretty inconvenient.

To clarify, the tools that are needed quicker are more complicated to select with a joystick, as they are on the "x" axis rather than the "+" axis.

It makes it much harder for people with praxia issues and other types of disability to select the bugcatching bag and the bow.

Does anybody else think this an issue?

[chilly shale]

I haven't tried it myself but from what I understand the tools can be moved around in that ring. I am not sure if it involves dragging them around in the main menu screen or not though...

[eternal skiff]

!!! I had no idea but you're right! I stand corrected.

Wait nevermind, I thought I'd found how to do that but I didn't lmao, I spoke too soon.

Lemme try again
Edit: nope, can't do it. Might just be me not getting it right though.

[ember umbra]

Not really good… quite small and while I Agree light text on Black is best to not dominant screen I find it hard to read (always has, not sure if that conected to my dyslexia… that i just dont see the patteren that Well when light text)
Its Also VERY fidely on switch

[chilly shale]

Just did it myself. on PC Hit 'I', grab one of the tools on the ring and drag it over the spot you want it, the tools will switch and they do change when using the wheel menu.

[ember umbra]

If you figure ot out please share becouse yes hard to Quick chsnce tool

[ember umbra]

Then its just how on switch

[eternal skiff]

My issue is that I'm on Switch and see no option for it.
I'll try on PC with a controller on the off chance it's been overlooked with controllers in general

[ember umbra]

Its bad if overlooked …

[eternal skiff]

Do you think they should give options to change the font itself? Would that help? There are different options that are easier to read for dyslexic people.

I personally know comic sans ms is neat for me, and some variations too.

[ember umbra]

I would love font type and even size choice, coming sanse work Well for me to… I light mode would Also help me (I Think it usally do but have never tested in a game)

[chilly shale]

Okay, just did it on Switch. Menu > Inventory > Tools Tab > Highlight Tool > Press 'A' > Highlight new tool location > Press 'A' again.

[ember umbra]

It do help when people dont writ a novel in server chat to talk to friends… but that cant really be helped so I just Tune out chat during things like that

[ember umbra]

Thank you … Think I move my dang bug bag … that might help me

[eternal skiff]

Thanks! I didn't think to look that "deep".

Edit: I'm used to have the option to do that on the tool itself in game, not in menus. It's probably because of Animal Crossing: New Horizons

[chilly shale]

Eh, it gave me a reason to finally start Palia on the Switch for more then just getting that link up reward. 😛 ...It also made me quite jealous of one feature the Switch has that PC does not...It logs you straight in without having to enter the password...really wish PC had an option for that...

[ember umbra]

I love we help each other with figuring out and learning about others need

Wow I Think I would scream if I had to type password every time i need restart

[chilly shale]

To make things worse I did a generated random password for my account for the added security...the thing is a beast...

[eternal skiff]

It's definitely smoother! But I suspect it's safer that way?

[ember umbra]

Oh I started using a password tester… they still made by me so I sort of rember but… they Wild

[eternal skiff]

Okay, I know that speaking of security, this is ironic but... I just bypass writing it cus I copy and paste the thing from my password list. And I KNOW it's a hazard, my dev friends already lectured me but I can't use other ways to compensate with my mnesic disorder, trust me I've tried!

[ember umbra]

Yea any One could start my switch but Can they do anything with my acount from it (bedid wrecking my lot)

[ember umbra]

I have a book but for most other it look like irteret chaos.. as I sensor memory so I know if on left or right side I know feel of thiknes… and I know what is doodled near by and… Yea
We do what we Can with what we have

[chilly shale]

Yeah...for this password I do that too. 😛 That is why I want the auto login, it would actually be safer then regularly adding it to my clipboard for any open program to grab.

[ember umbra]

I sort of like how twitch make me log in every Mont or 3

Its not a constant hazzel, it have some safte level, and i practis rember my code

[wispy iron]

I love that! 🙂 🌻 is a good choice!

Sorry i haven't been responding, we've had two of the worst storms in history, and subsequently been without power 😅 as from 10minutes ago we're back to living like civilised humans again😅

[unkempt hatch]

Does anyone else find it inhibitive that in Hotpot we are unable to see the cards in our hand and those on the table simultaneously?

I play a lot of online card games and have never come across this view set up, unless of course 'memory' was intentionally part of the challenge.

[ember umbra]

Oh dear are you ok?

Now how do we spread the Word? It will only work if many use it

[ember umbra]

Yea that do make it hard

[wispy iron]

We are fine! Only small damages to our house and garage! Just tiny ones! Others were not so lucky, there's quite a few barns down, roofs gone etc. But no one got hurt! ❤️

I don't know. Maybe @eternal skiff has an idea? 🙂

[ember umbra]

I could defently use my streaming Twitter to spread the info we Agree on… and I Think we could post both in general and quest help here….
Maybe S6 will help?

[wispy iron]

Maybe if we could write it down, and have it pinned? Or something?

And yeah, posting it several places, several times would probably be a good idea!

Who do we contact in that case? If we where to ask s6 for help?

[ember umbra]

So happy you ok, stay safe as you check and fix things and get you self some warm to drink to relax

[ember umbra]

No idea the modbot e-mail ? Maybe it Can get a command like the support thing? This is an easy Way to Them to show goodwill

[wispy iron]

Yeah, I'm about to put my phone on the charger to actually charge it up now, and do some damage control👌 and warm drink.. smart! I'm definitely doing that asap!

[ember umbra]

The digital sunflower 🌻

[ember umbra]

We talk later no stress, we find a Way … Maybe this be a good tool

[wispy iron]

I love that! If they would be willing to do that! 🌻

[ember umbra]

We do need s6 to help get the 🌻 emot if ot isnt already there

[pastel mica]

I believe that's a standard emote. Whether the in-game font supports it I'm not sure.

[wispy iron]

I can't find the 🌻 on palia chat

[pastel mica]

Yeah not all fonts support emojis by default

[chilly shale]

Are you on Switch or PC? There is a key, I think 'E', on PC that pulls up your hand while you are in the draw step to check what you have when making the decision.

[static wolf]

Yes, but when you pull up your hand you don't see the available cards, which is frustrating

[chilly shale]

But if the alternative is having to show both at a smaller scale to see them all? And be able to click on the one you want without hitting another by accident? A fast toggle between the two does seem the better option. PC might have the screen space to show both on larger monitors but Switch already seems a bit cramped.

[ember umbra]

Yes its a standard but chat dont have all standard

[static wolf]

yeah, a toggle would be nice- but it could also be that when you pull up your hand, it shows the cards currently on the table in a more compact layout

[unkempt hatch]

Yes but then your hand covers the cards on the table. There doesn't seem to be an option to see both simultaneously, which is what I'd find helpful 🙂

Edit: Just read further and saw this has been pointed out lol.

[polar grove]

Totally agree, the game could use a lot of little improvements to make it a bit easier to bounce between the different option to view. Also sometimes (On switch) you have to click A twice to take a card from the discord pile. Sometimes you only have to click once. What this ends up doing is throwing the drawn card immediately back into discard.

[silk mountain]

Yeah that happens on PC too, especially for the first draw. I almost always have to use the spacebar for the first one and give it a second otherwise I just toss it by accident

[polar grove]

Right, yeah you just have to be really careful which you know, sometimes I am not 😦

Then I make a mistake and betray evvvverrryoneee at my table I hope they forgive me

[eternal skiff]

Aaaa I'm sorry, I'm not sure I can be of much help for the moment because I don't really understand the sunflower idea for now (per usual after work when cognitive fatigue hits me up lol)

Should we also discuss the disabled characters in a survey about Palia?

Damn I feel stuck on my survey. There should at least be something that measures player satisfaction about accessibility in the game ig

[ember umbra]

Its basiclly an idea that when needing help or joining an activity and wanting to say hey Im disable to post a 🌻or the Word sunflower (as the emote note in game) a bit like the sunflower lainyard/keychain/card for hidden disabilities and IF we could get that normslised then that be a Way to get patient support from other players and Maybe stress less… at least thats how I understood @wispy iron idea

[eternal skiff]

Ooooh!!! That's clever!

[ember umbra]

In real life Im very happy for my sunflower string and badgedes

[eternal skiff]

Ooooh they're lovely!!! I'm rereading your previous conversation with Yllis, am I reading right that the sunflower emoji might not be usable in game?

[ember umbra]

Sadly its not 1 of the emoji but Maybe we could get it… its an already established symbol and easy Way for s6 to show support for disable players

But i surgested that Word symbol becous Yllis Word I knew was hard to spell but I like the idea and hoped we could piggyback on this project https://hdsunflower.com/

In real life I love how subtil it is.
Yet if you know you reconice the string/thsirt/badge ectra imidialy and they for all disability … so thats my reasoning

The fancy part with the flower is that companies get a litlle teaching in disability and helping (i Think just a pampflet) if they sign up … it started in uk in with airports but now its so many more countries and places…

That Said we could use difrent Word … i dont know what emotes IS in the game

[eternal skiff]

That could be a good idea!

So... I think I finished it? I'll give it a try and if it turns out to be a dud I'll edit it, so. Y'all can try it anyway.
@barren atlas I didn't name your Discord name directly in the credits, please tell me if you want me to.

@lost obsidian @wispy iron @hoary heron @cyan flame

https://forms.gle/dG7RFnQUGf5V3CSm6

[ember umbra]

What do it do with my e-mail? Do you get it?

[ember umbra]

I dont Think the project have a digital side … but Yea piggybacking on the consept might be handy still

[eternal skiff]

nope, Google just ensures that you can only participate once by registering your email. It's pretty common with Google surveys, and that does not make it legal for them to use your email address.

I just wanted to make it explicit

[wispy iron]

@eternal skiff & @ember umbra

Yes bruje you got it:) if we could have a word or a symbol that people could use if they need help/support or just someone who understands if something takes time/is difficult. Or if one wishes to announce that they are available for anyone who might need it. That would maybe be useful for a lot of people❤️

Sorry I'm a bit short today, migraine day👌

[wispy iron]

I love(!!) That you put the 🌻 idea in there! ❤️

[ember umbra]

Get Well, we Think more and Maybe how to ask s6 when you better.

[ember umbra]

Things like that always poke my anexity … so Thank you for ckarification, dont mind it makeing sure innonly ones but dont want it shared

[ember umbra]

Im sure it would be usefull thats we I love you brought up the idea… even omw🌻 for a grow will indicate Running might not be fastland same if asked question about when arive during run

[wispy iron]

Right! Yeah.. One could even use the 🌻 to indicate that the person who found the grove/pal/tree/stag whatever, isn't in a hurry, and are fine to wait ❤️

[barren atlas]

Lol no please dont name my discord name in the credits 😂

[ember umbra]

Yup it would need some Ground work here and on orher platforms to spread the Word… and best if we Can get s6 on board (get the emote snd they inform as Well) its still no guartee for rude people swooping in but Maybe it help) now how do we ask s6?

[barren atlas]

Ive tried to change it before and discord implodes and locks me outta changing it for a week rinse repeat. Wound up giving up.

[eternal skiff]

yeah that's what i thought lmao!!!!

[cyan flame]

This is probably out of your control, being most likely something on Google's side, so I'm dropping this more as an advice for others.
If you click on the link that leads to the results in progress of that survey, be careful with where you move your cursor!
With the pie charts I noticed that, if you accidentally catch the pop-up label under the cursor, it will flicker real quickly. Just a heads-up for any photo-sensitive folk that might stumble across that page.
P.S.: I'm talking about this kind of "pop-up labels" 👇

[pastel mica]

Yeah it would be worth it I think.

[eternal skiff]

I'll probably redo smth when I have more ideas then

[eternal skiff]

tbh I'm curious what y'all think of the representation we get in game.
I like it, personally, even if sometimes it borders on tropes I'm not a fan of

[cyan flame]

I've definitely pinpointed different flavours of neurodivergence and at least two-three obvious PTSDing villagers.

(I also noticed three NPCs that are on the physically disabled side.)

[cyan flame]

Which just reminded me: if we could have customisation options for physically disabled humans, that would be neat.

[chilly shale]

Ugh, I know it probably isn't what you meant but I just had the image of motorized wheelchair options in character customization that people use as gocarts ingame to launch off points and basically add racing...

As if Eshe didn't have enough to complain about with all the humans running around... 😄

[cyan flame]

For real tho, that could be doable too, in the eventuality that devs might add some form of mount (a regular horse, a Sernuk like those in Subira's entrance scene) to roam the areas.

[chilly shale]

I still dread the thought of them adding mounts in the traditional sense. Outside of the effects on the hunting minigame with faster movement possibly scaring away prey from even greater distances, there is also the matter of how it divides the playerbase. If only some of a group have the mount then if you try to move around as a group for resource gathering you are left with the constant waiting for the rest to catch up, negating the speed bonus, or potentially missing out if a group is able to travel around faster and harvest everything before you can get there.

One of the really nice things S6 did with the glider was make it slower then running speed so it adds to mobility options without overshadowing regular movement in the long run. Now if the mounts they might add in the future were an expansion on the storage space by being basically portable chests instead of faster movement, that I could see as a nice utility feature to gain while playing as it would add functionality without dividing the playerbase as sharply.

[eternal skiff]

Definitely!!! They're all neurodivergent imo safe for Galdurs who are just. I'm gonna assume within the norms of what a Galdur's supposed to be (i conflate psychological and cognitive neurotypes behind that label, anything not in the norm goes) like gods.
Majiri society is HORRIBLE TOO. So many of them are traumatised.

Of course there are those who wear glasses (which is a disability often overlooked and boy do I have a lot to say about that phenomenon in itself), Najuma has a prostetic leg, Tish is ill with something unspecified, apparently from birth?

And then there's Zeki who's maybe or maybe not missing an eye. At this point I trust nothing about that guy.

I'm also not a fan of a mount in mmos krkrr it's often a mess yeah.

But being able to customize our characters to be visibly disabled would be cool.

I don't see how it'd work with wheelchair users tho because Palia is not adapted for that at all rip

[chilly shale]

Clearly it would have to be a small walker instead of wheeled, you know... AT-ST style! 😄

[eternal skiff]

that could be good!

Issue is, there's little to no precedent to that kind of representation in terms of technical development.

We have eons of work on the physics of a character moving, running, jumping, and very little to nothing on the physics of using mobility aids.

That's partly why it's so janky when you mod a wheelchair into the Sims 4, or a cane.

It's kinda why we have so little body diversity representation too, because 3D models of bodies who are not within social norms are very scarce, and the development of their physics in video games even more so

[chilly shale]

There is also the disconnect mentally for many I think when you consider the amount of physical activity shown in the games that implies a minimum level of fitness that we don't associate with certain body types.

Actually...is WoW now the top of the list for representing the most body diversity? I am drawing a blank on other options...

[noble kelp]

How are people supposed to only pick 5 accessibility features as bare minimum? I want to pick all of them, they all should be the bare minimum

[ember umbra]

If not a wheel chair tjen build on the Najuma design with letting us Pick a bas where 1 or 2 arms or lehs have mecanical support. … and some lore that this is what is used as aid …

And Yea so many inbthis little village with traumer … Also even if the Big war theyvtslk of was 100s of years ago, there was SOME thing during Asurhas life.
The shunning of people not sticking to pat … and the almost jedi like early takeing kids for the order must Also give scars.

[chilly shale]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overchoice This is a thing. Seeing the one thing you are after is great, but too large of a selection causes it's own problems.

I've had a few games where the sheer possibility offered by an extensive character creation, or mod support for even more customization, has actually left me burned out on the game before I actually even get into it to play.

And even for things that can be changed ingame after the start, too many sliders and toggles to fine tune to get everything just right before the game can even be played can be exhausting.

There are also UI considerations. Too many options makes a setting panel very complex and can make it very difficult to find the particular option you need. In a single player game you can have the game paused while the menu is open to find that particular setting as an option, but in multiplayer that isn't there, which can mean finding an important setting while under the time pressure of things not waiting for you for something you might not have known was going to be a problem till it happened.

Of course all this is said without looking at the actual list you have to choose from. 😛

[eternal skiff]

I encourage you to complete the survey, you'll see you are able to do that in a later section.

[eternal skiff]

There's some very serious bad stuff going on. Majiri society outside of Kilima sounds like hell tbh. If I go there I know it's gonna be a mess. The Order is already dystopic enough on its own, but the fact that they forgot part of their cultures but keep following traditions without questionning the meaning they have... It's bad, bro, it's so ******* bad

It's a really good mirror to our own society and the representation of mental health is def smth I like.

[eternal skiff]

I agree about overchoice being detrimental when it comes to superfluous options, but take a look at Warframe and you can see a good example of how to keep it all tidy and usable, even if it's not perfect.

When it comes to accessibility options, those are not facultative, they're bare minimum to have.

So the reason why I limited the numbers of replies to that specific question isn't due to that. It's because the question is meant to narrow down what people think is most normal to have. Two latter questions gives the possibility to select all options.

Edit: oh and I actually think your participation in the survey could be good btw

[cyan flame]

I can tell you that Zeki ||is not missing any eye. he has a dialogue that tells you what that monocle is really for. I got it only once and already forgot what he said specifically, but I do remember him mentioning that he did not lose an eye.||

[eternal skiff]

Yeah I had that dialogue!! Thing is!!!!! I don't trust that lil guye!!! He's a facetious person!!!! He could be saying anything just to mess with us!!!!! Bro just acts that way because he enjoys keeping people on their toes, I'm sure of it.
I love him and I hate him and I love him and I hate him for it.

Peak ptsd representation, that dude has so much baggage at this point it's a whole caravan

[noble kelp]

I really really love cats, but don't like Zeki at all. Was so disappointed from when I first started playing that the only cat-person was a greedy capitalist. Why aren't there more cat people? It seems weird to have only one

[eternal skiff]

It might be foreshadowing, since Zeki's species is prejudiced against, and we're in a rural area where his kin isn't likely to end up in.

[noble kelp]

Weird to have prejudice in a cozy game >.>

[cyan flame]

They have prejudices even between Majiri themselves.

[eternal skiff]

Nah actually, it's more comforting that way. It has substance, it's comforting because it's a Fix-it game

Cozy because the world is perfect and nothing is ever wrong is just. Void. It'd be souless

[chilly shale]

There is a lot they could do with the fact that we are in a rural area that they can call out if they ever introduce the city as a zone to visit. Even something like intentionally having the city be wheelchair friendly when the town noticeably isn't could be used to add some depth to the world design.

[eternal skiff]

The communication team might be forced to spam us about the cozy factor but the writing team has got real stories with refreshing narratives to present us.
That's why I care so much about that game.

[noble kelp]

I wouldn't know about the writing, I haven't been able to play since August

[pastel mica]

So much of the dialogue talks about Bahari City so hopefully one day we can go there.

I would hope we get a lot of the major bugs with the current areas out of the way before they add more areas to the map though.

[wispy iron]

Oh I would love braces for my dainty joints! 😅😁

[flint nexus]

I'm not too interested in "real" depictions of how bad things are, and there's nothing comforting about stuff that makes my and others' lives difficult IRL. I don't find stuff like that "refreshing" either tbh, it's just the same old.
Refreshing would be a vision of a better world. And if we want to get anywhere in our real world then we need to see a way

[ember umbra]

Oh I dont recal that Maybe havnt had it… Maybe forgot it.

[molten swift]

You can have plenty of things to fix and conflict to resolve without it being tied to things like prejudice which can make players feel out of place and uncomfy in a game that is supposed to be cozy and where the motto or catch phrase is "welcome home"

[eternal skiff]

I agree with you but I feel like the game could let us influence things to be better. Humans are literally OP in this, and bit by bit we help NPCs with their troubles.

Btw nowhere did I refer to prejudice-based narratives as refreshing. What I find refreshing is how the men characters are written, for example, Ashura and Chayne especially. They're two figures of power who acknowledge their faults. I'm also pretty happy about the portrayals of parenthood, with how diverse it is, and Tish's attempts at taking back agency on her health.
There's also the sisterly feud between Elouisa and her sister (can't remember her name rn bcus of mnesic disorder), which is rare to just be included at all.
It's not revolutionary but rare enough that I called it refreshing, is all. To me those do give us a vision of a better world, without renouncing reality entirely.

But I understand why reminders of injustice would smart. I know my personal preferences are due to how allergic to taboos and "keep the peace mentality" I am.

I think the game allows us to make ourselves home, but for that to truly succeed, it'll need to part with its liberal take on it, because the mellow preference for compromises (thinking of Jel's level 4 friendship quest ending here) will only do so much. It's a risky bet but I'm willing to wait it out more given what I've seen so far, personally.

[eternal skiff]

What do we think of that?
https://twitter.com/playPalia/status/1754928029623779835?t=G8C35iQLBBDYDFlTubk8sg&s=19

Palia (@playPalia) on X

Need help mastering Palia's controls on Nintendo Switch? 🎮 Fear not! We've got you covered with this handy guide that will ensure you never miss a beat while navigating your way through the world of Palia. 😍

#Palia #PlayPalia #CozyGames #CozyMMO

Twitter · Feb 6, 2024, 6:00 PM

[hoary heron]

The graphic is something we've been asking for; however, the design choice is poor for visual accessibility. The text on the buttons themselves fails all levels of Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG), and the definition text out to the sides~~ only passes WCAG at the mid-range level, and that's only if the text is large. That means the "Nintendo Switch Controls" part passes WCAG AA, but not WCAG AAA and all the text out to the sides to define the buttons fails WCAG at all levels.~~

CORRECTION (I had the wrong background value for the definition text): The definition text out to the sides PASSES for WCAG AA, but fails WCAG AAA.

[molten swift]

The one plus I can think to give to the visual is that there don't seem to be color blindness issues with the graphic itself.

[hoary heron]

This is a great tool I was referred to by one of the other Shepps: https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/

[eternal skiff]

y e a h that's what I thought but I felt nitpicky so I wanted another opinion.

I also wondered about this because we had a talk about whether or not controllers worked efficiently on PC, but now I realize this train of thought is kind of moot because this is specifically about the Switch

[hoary heron]

Edited my previous assessment as I realized I'd made an error in capturing the hexcodes for the background for the assessment of the definition text.

[eternal skiff]

Oh @hoary heron while you're around, do you think there could be a way to boost the survey, if you think that's useful?

[hoary heron]

There are somewhat grouped Palia communities here, on Facebook, Reddit...you might get some traction sharing it on Twitter or Bluesky (which is no-longer invite-only as of today).

[eternal skiff]

I don't use FB enough at all, but the others are worth a try.

[lost obsidian]

To that, you could probably try the official Palia subreddit. It's ran by mostly shepps, i don't think they'll have any issues with it. Just run it by the mods to make sure it doesn't conflict with any of their rules (like self advertisement for example) and you should be good to go

[eternal skiff]

Oh I just found this https://www.reddit.com/r/Palia/comments/1akcmre/want_an_easier_way_to_share_location_in_game/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
maybe it's useful for other people. I know I get lost a lot cus of proprioception issues

[eternal skiff]

... How do I find a mod to talk to again? I mostly lurk on Reddit, I rarely ever interact,,

[lost obsidian]

I also treat reddit as read only

You can scroll down a bit on the sub's main page, then you'll see the option on the right

[ember umbra]

Good info bad presenting… hard to read

[eternal skiff]

sdfdsfsf it was right there but because it was in French my brain overlooked it istg

thanks you!!

[static wolf]

Also the controller graphic isn't in game, right, just on Twitter? That's completely useless imo

[hoary heron]

Eh, I think it has some use--but should be designed with accessibility in mind, and posted in more places than just twitter. Within the game itself is a good idea, though I wonder if it would be too small to read on the Switch screen...

[eternal skiff]

It probably would, which would be ironic. And weird, because Stardew Valley manages to adjust things just fine

[eternal skiff]

i want a flappy hands emote in game

[pastel mica]

I've been asking for some kind of grid on the in game map for what feels like forever

[eternal skiff]

Or coordinates at the very least!!! It'd be so helpful.

[ember umbra]

It would…. Atleast like this

[ember umbra]

Would Also work when people play in like french and tryvto tell they have a flow tree but dont know english name for where.

[eternal skiff]

Yep it would be accessible in terms of language in general

Wait @ember umbra are you French too??? I am!!

[pastel mica]

Trying to describe spots with no landmarks nearby is something.

[timid pilot]

Yeah. It would also be easier for switch users bc it is hard to write on there

[ember umbra]

Nop danish I reconiced some thing looked like french (and other be Maybe italien/spanish) if they do german and VERY simply decrip i might get it… its been many years but did have it in School… not french though that Im

[ember umbra]

Yea imagen if we could Mark map and send that in chat… but yes even koordinats be niiiiice

[pastel mica]

I do think they put in a way to drop a flag for us (and maybe your party I'm not sure) to see iirc but it's not linkable to chat. 😦

[eternal skiff]

They did?? Well then that's even more of a miss 😭

[ember umbra]

Yes there is a Way with party flag but I have no idea how party work… Also the invite last Way to short I Got 1 when fishing and before i Got my fish the invite expired …. Even if I hadnt been fishing 🤷🏼‍♀️ an other time i must have gotten One but I dint see it, as it dint popup until expired

[ember umbra]

I just know i dont know how on switch and that invites do NOT give me enough time to react

[eternal skiff]

The survey has nearly 50 participations, which is much more than what I expected in so little time! Thanks you all a lot, and feel free to share the posts I made about it on social media too!

https://x.com/BrujeButch/status/1755688445366677858?s=20

https://www.tumblr.com/palia-tive/741616347420737536/inaccessibility-in-palia?source=share

Sadly the subreddit's mods have not reached back to me, but I'll post it there too when I can.

Bruje Butch | il/iel (@BrujeButch) på X

#Palia #accessibility #DisabledGamer Hey, I play the game and I'm concerned about the lack of accessibility in it, I also care about accessibility in general, and in video games too, so I made this survey:
https://t.co/ryppHo0W1K

Anyone who's a gamer can participate.

Twitter · Feb 8, 2024, 8:21 PM

[eternal skiff]

@lost obsidian @hoary heron I'm real sorry to @ you two out of the blue, but I tried to follow your advice contacting the mods on r/Palia but I haven't gotten a response at all. Is it usual to wait a week for a response? I might have submitted my message the wrong way or smth

[warped latch]

sorry it must have split through the cracks, I will check now!

[eternal skiff]

oh it's ok, I really could have sent it wrong too!

[warped latch]

Heya i'm kinda in the middle of 100 things so i've passed it onto the other mods since it got lost in modmail and either a team or person will get back to you!

I didn't want to keep you waiting when I said I would check, so I hope thats okay!

[eternal skiff]

it's all good don't worry!!! don't urge for my sake it's fine if it waits i'm just used to not sending forms properly krkrrk

[eternal skiff]

Reposting the link to the survey on accessibility in Palia because it is nearing 100 participations, which would be a nice first milestone to communicate the results and try and reach out to Palia's official team. Feel free to participate if you haven't, and share it around to anyone who plays video games, even if it's not Palia!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfglyfd3Ey_xiyiMD-AULas8ohhYaf8eXeI4YfGFKlF8LOyUw/viewform?usp=sf_link

You can also share the post about it that I made on Tumblr and Twitter, it would be really helpful!

• https://www.tumblr.com/palia-tive/741616347420737536/inaccessibility-in-palia?source=share
• https://x.com/BrujeButch/status/1755688445366677858?s=20

Sorry for the repost on two channels at once, I'm only going to do it here and on the man discussion channel, no worries.

[sly dew]

Just want to thank you for the labor that went into this!

[eternal skiff]

It was mostly a group effort prior to me writing it, but thanks you still.

[safe harbor]

Do we know if there is EVER going to be a way to rebind the camera key off of K? I'm a lefty and use OKL: for movement instead of WASD and that's all I want. A tiny little rebind option.

(Yes I've opened multiple tickets and asked here before with no response)

[quartz maple]

no idea. s6 is just wack like that and we have no idea what they plan behind the scenes most of the time

[hoary heron]

It's been a part of the known issues for a while, and I bring it up periodically in my spaces as well (along with other common accessibility issues) to try to keep it top-of-mind amidst all the other development pushes they've got going. I suspect that key may have unexpected impact when attempting to rebind it or allow it to be rebound, and thus takes more work/time/testing. I do not work for S6, and I can't make promises on their behalf, but I do believe this is something that will be fixed eventually.

In the meantime, you may have some success using a controller (XBox-related ones seem to work most consistently, but I've managed with a 3rd party PS3 USB controller) for most gameplay, though Hunting and Bug Catching on controller is still pretty frustrating.

[burnt rock]

hi guys, i'm trying to play on my PC with my friend who is on Switch and we just can't!!! any useful tips?

[hoary heron]

What's the issue that you're running into? Are there limitations you're hitting due to a disability? Or are you in different geographical regions (e.g. North America vs Europe)? You can get into the game but can't seem to get into the same server with each other?

[burnt rock]

both in the same city. SHe's not getting my friend's request

[hoary heron]

Ah--I was going to recommend you ask your question in #💻│tech-help as this is a technical issue; however, it seems you have a conversation going there already. If they can't help you and the request still isn't showing up, you may need to submit a support ticket.

This channel is more focused around discussing Accessibility in Palia, where the gameplay design, even when working "correctly", has conflict with our disabilities making it difficult, if not impossible, for us to play happily and/or safely. Disabilities and personal needs can cover a whole lot of things too--as seen in the aggregate post in the pins, as well as recent conversations--not only things like captions for spoken words and auditory cues or color-settings to support those with colorblindness, but even certain keybindings being designed initially with the assumption that PC players would be using the WASD keys for movement as though they were right-handed, which causes problems for left-handed players who are dependent on K for movement and can't use it here because it's forcibly bound to the Camera/Kamera.

We talk about the challenges we have here, hone our feedback, empathize with each others' struggles, and share workarounds that we've found that may be helpful to others!

[burnt rock]

got you, thank you x

[hoary heron]

Good luck! I hope you and your friend are able to play together soon!

[restive wren]

Thank you for all the great info today I appreciate you so much!

[hoary heron]

Thank you for supporting an important conversation like that on your stream, and for seeking accessibility support for your own community as well! ❤️

[restive wren]

omg you would be so proud of me i posted in my server and even linked this chat. If there is ever anything i can inform my community on let me know o7

[glad light]

as a lefty who uses WASD, i wonder how things wouldve changed if the tools i use to play were adapted to being left handed vs me figuring out right handed controls for things anyways
this is... interesting to think about

i have a mild level of proficiency with using my right hand in things because of that (and other tools), so idk if it was all bad cuz being able to do things with either hand is a pretty good skill, but hm. neat!

[placid gorge]

Idk if anyone has thought about this but what about like cooking recipes so many times at star quality depending on their value then after that being able to auto cook it?

So like cooked fish 5 times but crab pie 10 or something then you can like cook in bulk after that without having to do the mini games unless you choose too
This is for two reasons 1 the mini games are really difficult for some recipies and people really struggle so they could get help for the first few then be able to auto cook after and 2 when you get the higher focus bar you go through a lot more food and cooking takes ages

[sick ingot]

never would have occurred to me but that’s a great idea

[pastel mica]

That would be cool to have something like that. It'd make getting food for decent worm production easier as well.

[hoary heron]

My eldest kiddo is a lefty who grew up using WASD too (it just kind of happened)! I remember how excited we were when we visited Downtown Disney back in the day and there was a shop of ALL lefty things. All kind of utensils, tools, etc. that are usually mass-crafted with a right-handed orientation, but they were all crafted for left-handed folk! Hopefully we can keep moving things forward so accessibility is a standard, not a novelty!

[glad light]

thats neat!!!! my main barriers i come across are desks and can openers
i do wonder if part of the reason i learned wasd/right handed was because like, i grew up using shared devices. eg library computers, family computer, etc. makes it easier for me to pick up and play stuff and since i started that way it was pretty intuitive
also learned violin right handed but the bonus left hand dexterity is nice lol

[hoary heron]

Oh wow, I'll bet! Especially since you really want that for those complex shifts and fingerings! (I played viola in elementary school, but now I'm a ukulele player and my left hand definitely has to "think" harder and reach more!)

[glad light]

for tools that arent static i think lefty adaptions should be 100% there. lefty scissors were a game changer! it doesnt hurt! tech stuff i think should be adaptable but learning right handed wasnt really a detriment, makes it easier for me to pick things up especially since most budget mice are not ambidextrous

[static wolf]

that's a really cool idea! I definitely think we need some ability to cook faster for focus food, and I think that's a cool way to implement it.

[chilly shale]

Strongly right handed here and I still try for ambidextrous mice whenever possible, I don't actually find most ergonomic right handed mice to be comfortable at all. Only reason I bother at all is the extra buttons available on MMO mice... Being able to switch the hand using the mouse is nice when I am doing things like eating while browsing the web.

As for the cooking bypass...I think it would be nice...but only if it was slower then cooking with the minigame. If you provide a bypass that is objectively better then people would take it, and at that point you basically destroy the minigame as the skip would actually pressure players into using it with the time saving it would give. The other balance method would be making it more wasteful then cooking manually but that is a route I would really rather they not go down.

A slow cooker that takes 5-10 times as long but you don't even need to be online for similar to the worm farms and seed makers could be a nice thing to work towards. Just leave it running overnight to have food the next time you log in. Though to keep at least some of the cooking mechanic aspect, maybe have it where you have to wait till the food is done, no pulling it out early. Put in enough for 5 servings and it won't open till all 5 are cooked.

[eternal skiff]

I think that there should be recipes that can be auto-cooked by default too. Like, the basic ones, that were there since the open beta release.
They're not super important in terms of quest content and it'd just be fair imo

[eternal skiff]

I'm not knowledgeable enough on accessibility in terms of left/right handedness but it's def smth to take in account with Palia.

So far, switching pov is the one thing I've seen people say was missing, but I must have overseen others?

[eternal skiff]

We're a few participations away from 100, so if you wanna share this one more time it would be great! Any gamer can participate! https://forms.gle/6RQdLF59haidxDk7A

I know 100 is a small number but still... Btw I wonder how many people are registered to have played the game.

[wispy iron]

Have you shared it in global, and the other relevant chats? Game help, cafe, chill, newbies etc?

[elder veldt]

This is pretty incredible work! Mind if I DM you about it? O:

[eternal skiff]

Not everywhere no, I'm a bit intimidated. But I've been sharing it in #💬│palia-discussions once in a while.

[eternal skiff]

thanks you, I really just reunited data that already existed, trust me. and sure?

[cold vault]

Can a dyslexia friendly font be added to the game and an option to make the text a little bigger? Or if it already exists maybe someone can point me to where it is?

[eternal skiff]

As far as I know it doesn't exist but we've asked for it.

[cyan flame]

Just a heads-up about this 👇
It's not necessarily Palia-related but I'm sharing the two cents here, since it's one of the anonymous feedback in the survey about accessibility.

If navigating through webpages causes any kind of discomfort for whatever reason, and the sites don't come with a dark mode toggle, there's an extension called "dark reader" for both Firefox and Chrome, and (IIRC) should also work with mobile browsers.
https://darkreader.org/

Once installed, the extension will automatically slap the "dark mode" on every single site you'll visit, but you can also toggle in which one to keep the thingy enabled.
Just as an example of how it works, this is a comparison between "dark reader" enabled and disabled respectively, on the survey results page (also hidden under spoilers, just to avoid a case of "MY EYES!")

[eternal skiff]

that's good to know!! Just to be safe I did change the colour tho lol

[cyan flame]

Tbh, I'm so dependant on that extension I never even realised that the original background was a shade of "MY EYES!" yellow

[eternal skiff]

I made a real rookie mistake and forgot to add a question in the survey, about if ppl want to be kept updated!!! If you see this and have participated already pls emoji react once to this message so I can know to @ you when I make a new one or publish it

[eternal skiff]

@hoary heron @lost obsidian would either of you be okay with sharing this in other channels to make it known? I don't think I'll get much attention by posting it myself. If it's too close to endorsement I understand.

I made this format so far, which would be the more concise and clear I'm able of writing:

Hello! I created a survey to address the lack of accessibility in the game, following conversations in the #♿│accessibility-discussions channel! Please do give it a moment if you'd like to contribute, regardless of your profile! It'd be good for data diversification.
So far it is nearing 100 participations all in all, which is a first milestone for it to be credible.

https://forms.gle/no8Z3Xb2M9x593QLA

If possible, I'd also appreciate it if you could share the posts I made on Twitter or Tumblr about it.
Twitter: https://x.com/BrujeButch/status/1755688445366677858?s=20
Tumblr: https://www.tumblr.com/palia-tive/741616347420737536/inaccessibility-in-palia?source=share

[lost obsidian]

So, we are generally advised against doing stuff like that. We don't really want to open up the issue of endorsing certain projects, but not others, so for now, i'm going to have to say no

Even if we don't carry much weight at the moment, it could become a problem in the future. I would be more than happy to share this, but i don't want to burden existing and new shepps with having to make similar decisions as the program grows

Have the reddit mods got back to you about the post? That could be a good angle to get a bit more traction

[eternal skiff]

That's okay, I've expected that!

Well, the reddit mods had a response similar to yours, sadly, with other reasons for their refusal at my inquiry

[lost obsidian]

Aww. I see

Well, maybe you could also bring it up around patch times. Next one should be on the 27th, as that's when the Maji Market ends. I don't know about any other upcoming announcements until then sadly

Game News pings do bring a lot of people out of hiding for sure haha!

[static wolf]

personally, I think it's fine if the bypass is "objectively" better (in terms of speed, maybe give it the same 10-15 seconds as food cooked on a grill or it waits the same amount of time you're allotted to cook the food) because there are a lot of reasons you cook besides focus

• social aspect (tbh I don't care much about keeping my focus up, but I love cooking with my friends in vc)
• along with social aspect, it allows you to not have all the resources if you cook with a friend. presumably, with autocooking, you'd have to contribute all the resources yourself
• cooking skill xp/challenges (could make it so auto-cooking earns a bit less xp toward the cooking skill)
• starred food (could be that there's a lower % chance auto-cooked food is starred, given the exact same starred/nonstarred resource input, compared to cooking with mini-game)
• some people just enjoy the mini-game

It's like how with this market, the "objectively" better decision would be to ignore the chase and do the hotpot game during that time instead because the hotpot game gives so many more tickets during that time. People still do the chase though, for numerous reasons. And when you're playing hotpot, it's "objectively" better, in terms of tickets, to go for all 3-of-a-kind sets, even if you lose, because it makes the table points better and can earn you more than the winner bonus if most/all people at the table do it, but at the same time, there are other reasons people play hotpot (like just enjoying the game and wanting to win), so people still do 1-of-each sets.

All that long ramble to say that I would love for alternative methods to cooking to be comparable, time wise, to regular cooking with the mini-games (as opposed to taking longer), and even if it was I'd still probably cook with the mini-games on many types of occasions.

[steady phoenix]

@safe harbor hey, have u tried playing one key to the right? I tried and it works as P L ; ' for WASD

oh @safe harbor if you switch item slot numbers to something else u can use 8 4 5 6 on the num pad. probably way more comfy

[chilly shale]

Except for the market tasks they incentivized it by including rewards for doing the less optimal paths, and I wouldn't really want them to do that with the alternate cooking method. If they made it so that starred foods could only be gained from playing the minigame, or the weekly tasks only count if done manually, it locks out that content from those that can't do the minigame at all. Simply having it take longer still leaves it as able to do everything but not turn it into the recommended path.

You can see it checking the various other channels here, and it is in games across the board. "What is the fastest way to do 'X'?" "Is there an easy way to get 'X'?" and other similar questions are constant, players want to know the most efficient way they can achieve a goal, and if that answer is "Skip the intended mechanic and do this other method." then they have either found an exploit or the game is not designed right. "The only winning move is not to play" is a morality answer on war, not on good gameplay design.

As for the reduced xp gain, or lower chance at starred foods, functionally that is the same as just making things cost more resources or being wasteful. It can also be very difficulty to balance as you are now calculating the cost of the waste compared to the time saved for determining the most efficient route to leveling. Making the food take longer but at the same material usage means it is a more direct and clear cost to benefit calculation of time spent.

[static wolf]

For the lower chance/reduced xp gain I don't think it should be by too much, it could just be like a little buff (ex. your chances of getting starred food from things seem to go up by a little bit each level? so maybe doing mini-games by hand gives you a little bonus as if you were one level higher, and for xp maybe just a little 1-2% bonus for doing it in person, though I'd be fine with no buff too). Also agree medals shouldn't require mini-games, but I think there's one for social cooking which would likely necessitate not fast-cooking. Personally, the long extended timers in lots of elements of palia (like crafters) make the game much less playable because it requires me to track a bunch of things and consider what I need to do this gaming session to be able to do what I want to do next time (and hope the thing I'm fixating on this time is what I'll fixate on next time)

I think some players do want to get things done in games as fast as possible, and others don't. Like a lot of games have people who speedrun them (often using exploits/glitches), but there are still plenty of people who play those games as intended, even if they're aware of ways things can be done faster. I don't play final fantasy, so I can't speak directly to this, but others have brought up in previous discussions that they have had events in the past with ways to "skip" platforming elements (again I don't remember exact details), which is a win for accessibility, but plenty of people still do the platforming elements. I think having multiple methods allowed that offer more accessibility, even if some are "easier" or faster, is good. Same as how I think one-click fishing, which others have suggested as something that would be immensely helpful as a way to overcome the accessibility issues with the fishing mini-game, would be awesome, though as awesome and faster/easier it would be, I would still probably play the mini-game because it's not an accessibility concern I specifically struggle with.

Since it's not a competitive game, my personal belief is that people should play the way they want to play, and if that means skipping intended mechanics with accessibility tools to better access the game (even if players don't have specific accessibility concerns with that area), then that's an overall good thing. There's not really anything a person can gain at the expense of others by not doing the cooking mini-games while still getting the same foods.

[chilly shale]

The issue with skipped content is more of a development issue. If the content is skipped then the time spent coding it in is in some respects wasted. Spending 100s of hours coding and debugging in a game system compared to the few to code in a skip then compare that to what percentage of the player base uses each. I've seen too many games where older content is basically rendered pointless with new patches and content to the point that new players just coming in won't even bother touching that old content, even having other players actively discouraging new players from even trying the content as a waste of time. That is a problem to actively work against, not just shrug the shoulders and go "That's how games are now."

As to the extended timers in Palia...yeah they can be a bit irritating, but the game as a whole seems to focus on time management being one of the skills to practice. The daily cycles and setting up a route to go through each game day and lining it up with things like the growth cycles of your garden and the activity cycles of whatever fish or bug you might be hunting down. Under the life sim look of the game it seems to very much be a resource and time management sim.

[safe harbor]

I’m just so conditioned to OKL; for every other game it’s hard but yeah I’ve thought about this. Also for the numbers I have an MMO mouse so all the numbers I use are actually on my mouse anyway so it works well 🙂 thank you for the ideas I appreciate you

[hoary heron]

If your content is enjoyable, people who enjoy it will play the content, even if a "skip" is available to them, because it's fun. So not only are the people who are enjoying it able to still enjoy it, but the people who are miserable and/or can't play it are able to progress and be included as well, which means more people playing the game and having fun.

If everyone skips your content once a "skip" is added, then you need to reexamine why no one finds your content fun. That being said, there are plenty of folks who find cooking fun and would continue to actively to it even if a "skip" is added.

The example referenced above was for the Moonfire Faire event in Final Fantasy XIV; they kept in the challenging obstacle course and jump puzzle, but added a secondary alternate course that was more focused on movement than jumping/platforming, and a third option (narratively written to be the most hardcore of all because your character was doing the hard course with their eyes closed ❤️ ) and you know what happened?

• Folks who enjoyed the obstacle and jump puzzle routes still did those courses and told their friends about it.
• Folks who had skipped previously but thought they might be able to handle the secondary route tried it, felt accomplished, and told their friends about it too.
• Folks who had been unable to participate at all or hit too much frustration took the third option, and enjoyed that they weren't shamed for taking the out, also sharing their excitement with their friends.
• Folks who cheerfully ran the other courses on their main characters enjoyed also having the third option to run the event on their alts, which encouraged further participation in the event and more playing together.

Accessibility can help everyone, without breaking a game.

[chilly shale]

Did they ever release stats on how often each option was taken? Having that along side with a further breakdown on choice made on main versus alt would be interesting.

[hoary heron]

They did not--but it was visible in the area, the hordes of people going through the different paths, standing in cutscene, etc. Like--it was plain to see, and then the alt-choices are anecdotal bits of evidence from the communities I play with, who happen to be more alt-heavy players.

[radiant sun]

Exactly this. No one goes into a game not wanting to play it - that's the whole point of gaming, to experience the game. Skips are an optional last resort for those of us that are often left out of development or those that have simply had enough of horrid RNG systems.

[chilly shale]

Always beware of absolutes. Especially when including anything like an MMO in the arguement. I've mentioned before you can't consider an MMO a single game, it is a social platform collecting a number of different kinds of games. And there are many cases of people joining up to play one of those sub games and looking to skip past the others because they don't want to play them. The moment a game develops "Endgame Content" you will have players stop caring about the rest of the game in favor of jumping to the end, either to catch up to friends, or because that is where game companies put the focus on for adding new content. This is why I said it was a development issue, if the skip is not a better option for the average player of their target audience they can be sure that the content they spent time making will receive the attention it deserves for the amount of work that went into it.

For the FF event, did the skip narration last as long as actually running the content would have, or was it notably shorter?

[radiant sun]

Sorry, I was speaking in the context of Palia - which I personally don't consider to be an MMO, it's more a singleplayer game in a multiplayer setting.

MMOs are a different breed though because they have content (PVP and/or PVE) that often encourages racing to the endgame because endgame = better gear. They also have different types of players (RPers, PVPers, Achievement Hunters/Set Collecters, etc) compared to Palia which, largely, only has one (not to say there aren't achivement hunters or RPers but they're a small minority).

[hoary heron]

Honestly, my biggest question here is why someone is arguing against accessibility options in the channel where we talk about how we're locked out of content due to a lack of accessibility in Palia.

I'm going to step away now to put my kids to bed.

[chilly shale]

The argument was never against skips being in the game, the argument is about how to balance them with the existing content so they don't replace it.

[chilly shale]

That is the great thing about so many single player games. Something as simple as a difficulty setting is an easy and common thing in many of them so we can all play at our own pace. The number of times I miss something as simple as a pause button. Easy to have in single player, not so much in multiplayer...

[warm grove]

I honestly do not see an issue with an option to skip the cooking minigame itself. I can understand your point in regards to "it being wasted" in regards to how much coding that has taken, etc etc... however, as it's been mentioned here, with FF as an example... tons of people would and still enjoy that content/part of a game, and will continue to do so.

I knew people, and still do, who very much enjoyed the cooking minigame. I enjoyed it when I could play, when my hands & disability were not struggling with keeping up. However, on the days when I have flare ups, or when I just... can't process what's happening at all at the time, having an option to "skip" the minigame entirely... would be very much welcomed.

It doesn't even have to be, "oh hey bam, it's done." But it could at least still correlate to the time for a dish to be cooked. I'm not sure what the ""Balance"" would be of that. Could even just be the player going to each station at least once, to do said task, and it can last a specific amount of time. Instead of just having to rely on said minigame.

Either way, I don't see how it'd be an issue. There would still be plenty of people who would partake in the minigame, however there would also be people who would benefit from an option to skip, make it easier, whatever.

It's already been brought up, but yeah. FF is a good example. For a game that advertises itself to be inclusive... there really just... should be an option for this, personally.

[unique crag]

It's also worth noting that for many people, the choice wouldn't be "do I skip or do I play the minigame" but actually "do I skip or do I not participate in this feature at all"
If you aren't able to take part in the minigame because its inaccessible to you, the argument here is irrelevant - the system is already "wasted" coding to these users, because they can't use it

[radiant sun]

Exactly^ - especially with Palia when a large part of the game (the bundle system) relies on using inaccessible skills.

[silk mountain]

This is true for me and not because I can't, but because I hate it. I don't see it as a worthwhile use of my time for the reward.

[warm grove]

And yes, there will definitely be people who will use this to just... get things done faster... it's fine. I don't see an issue, esp if it'd help those who actually need this feature/option.

[unique crag]

Likewise for me - I'm lucky enough to be half decent at it when I want to be but the system itself isn't fun. I'm the hypothetical "player who will just skip the content instead of doing it as intended" because I do not enjoy the content on top of it being inaccessible, and I don't think "people find it unfun and want to skip it" is a good reason to avoid accessibility features in the name of "balancing"

[radiant sun]

I don't think, personally, that the first response to an accessibility suggestion should be "but what if people abuse it?" - if that is a concern then the real question should be why they would need to

And this isn't even touching the fact that Palia relies way too much on RNG for a self-described cozy game

[chilly shale]

The first response to any modification in a game should be "What if people abuse it" that is part of the design process. Adding an awesome weapon to an FPS game can be neat but if you don't balance it with existing content it can break game balance. If adding an enemy highlight option to assist players with vision problems will render an already existing stealth strategy that is popular completely useless, then yes it needs careful balance considerations.

In this case, If the bypass for the cooking game is too easy and is a solo activity, what affect could it have on group cooking? Will those that use group cooking as a way to get around the particular cooking tasks that they can't do stop joining groups to cook with because the skip is easier for them? Will that make it more difficult for players that like to cook in groups to find people to group with?

If the skip mechanic still requires that the individual cooking stations be made but no longer requires us to interact with them, what affect will it have on how we design kitchen layouts? Will we just shove all then stations together in a high density mass in an other wise blocked off room except for the single station we need to start the whole process?

Will it introduce any economy issues? If the player can leave their housing plot while letting things cook, does it open any opportunities to go collect cooking ingredients at the same time changing the rate at which income can be generated.

Can the player queue up multiple across different cooking stations or one at a time? Can they change plots while the cooking is happening? Being able to switch between a number of them each with their own kitchen making a food solo, potentially cranking out food faster then expected?

I will repeat an earlier comment, the argument was never about leaving out the skip. There was never a suggestion that it didn't belong, the only issue is about how to balance it to avoid replacing the current minigame.

[radiant sun]

My brain is too fried to say all I'm thinking, but ultimately; if introducing accessibility options makes some content in a game null then that content wasn't serving its playerbase to begin with.

[unique crag]

(You know what never mind I'm deleting this. I'm not here for people to start debates with me about accessibility and I have better things to do with my limited energy than have to defend myself for pointing out why "what about the balancing" derails can come across as rude.)

(same as above - leaving edits vs just deleting fully so theres still some context that i posted here for the replies below)

[cyan flame]

@eternal skiff I have news for you

[pastel mica]

The only thing I want to add to Himo and froggies points:

There is no player based economy to "damage" since there is no trading and the like. It wouldn't have any more effect than cake parties for example.

[radiant sun]

Didn't have the energy to explain it last night, but exactly! (And I'm still not jiving with their excuse for not adding player trading - it's just so they keep forcing players to do the wack RNG)

[pastel mica]

For some folks their fun is racing to gold cap and they'll do that anyway regardless.

I've said it since closed beta: not having trading is certainly a choice for something you are trying to call an MMO.

[elder veldt]

Just wanted to chime in as someone who Doesn't have accessibility-related problems with the cooking mini-games, and is an avid cook who hosts cooking parties routinely:

I think the option to skip the cooking mini-games is a brilliant idea. Those who want (or need) to, can. Those who don't want (or don't need) to, won't. I won't. And that doesn't affect me in anyway. Kind of like how I'm sighted and don't go touching braille everywhere I go because it wouldn't really do anything for me. But it does for other people and that's kinda' important.

Edit: On a more serious note, I've also heard points about it breaking balance before, which is quite interesting considering there isn't an in-game system that requires balancing. No player economy. No, economy, in actuality, to speak of. Just people either cooking for fun or cooking for gold to purchase bathtubs for their own—personal—home plot. If it became an issue in the future, well, one could imagine balancing the in-game economy around this accessibility feature. Disabled folk find ways to adjust around inaccessibility all the time! I'm sure the opposite can be figured out.

[eternal skiff]

LET'S GOOO

@chilly shale hey, I think I see your point about accessibility "skip" options being abused by players, and I share your concerns cus TONS of Palia players treat it like a satisfaction machine, at the detriment of balance, which is super important in MMO, including this one, true, but I truly don't think arguing about this here is the best idea cus people are coming from a way different pov then yours.

We're gonna offer ways to make the game truly inclusive and playable by as many people as possible, and then it's up to S6 to balance things out.

First step is us speaking up and suggesting, second step is them working it out and putting in an actual effort about this. Third will be a compromise between the two first, I hope.

I don't think you're involving yourself in bad faith in this channel, but you seriously need to work on a thing: you seem to have more empathy for the people making the game (paid and making money off of players) than you have for disabled players.

And look, I get it, when you're passionate about gamemaking, it's easy to make that mistake.

But a studio like S6 doesn't need gamers to defend it against its disabled playbase. You got it backward.

[old vector]

in cozy games "what if people abuse it" should NOOOTTTT at all be the first question. comparing it to an fps game is disingenuous.

see also all the other arguments, but i just wanted to add that on

[radiant sun]

^ especially when cozy games are so popular because they're supposed to be low-consequence, casual games.

[old vector]

accessibility is faaarrrr more important than "balance"

[desert inlet]

Balance can't even exist if there's a percentage of your player base that can't even play/play properly bc they can't access things.

[lucid raft]

So. I like decorating. A lot. Which includes planning how I want my plot to look like etc. And now that I'm in a point of finally have all the rooms, all the plot cleared out so I can plop all of them down..
But when I was trying my best to get my plot to look nice, I notice that the plot's grid system is small. Like way small to see. I might have taken a hard way to do my planning, but my god how hard is to count the small all of the plots small squares one. by. one.
If it could be liitttle big bigger those squares, it would make me much more happier and not cursing out loud.

Also in the same note; there should be an option for the "search items" window, that you can hide it, if you need to. My god. It would be the best thing since, while doing the earlier plopping down houses and the item window was constantly on my way. Even when trying to rotate the whole plot in a way, so I could count things carefully, the items window was always in the way.

[chilly shale]

Please don't strawman the issue being discussed. There was never even the suggestion that people had to come up with perfect game ideas in this channel. The start of the conversation was on a possible skip for cooking. That part of the conversation ended with two views, one having it cost more resources, and the second (mine) having it take more time. That one ended.

What followed was a shift in topic to a more general discussion of skips and their place in game design, FFXIV was brought up an example for how devs implemented a skip and the focus of it all was not player suggestions but developer implementations and gameplay effects on players. The final point I made on it was talking about the design process and why balance needs to be considered By the Devs not for players with their suggestions. I only linked it to cooking because that was the more recent topic and seemed a nice way to tie the conversation back to Palia while giving some more solid examples of how things are interconnected.

[unique crag]

I've deleted my previous messages because parts of them are being misconstrued in ways I don't like, and I'm not interested in having an argument about who said what when my goal was to point out how conversation derails like this often work to silence disabled players. This is the last I'll be saying on the topic so don't respond to this, please. Let the topic go back to accessibility and how the game could be improved to benefit people.

[noble kelp]

Your past words were really good and really important. I think more people need to have that perspective laid out in front of them to understand how ridiculous it is for them to not want accessibility options available when the entire point is that it's optional

[warm jungle]

Just poking my head here again, and.... honestly, what's the point of coming into an accessibility discussion channel to constantly argue against accessibility options? What's the goal?

like, unless my memory is super wonky, I feel like this is far from the first time I've seen this

[radiant sun]

Your memory is definitely not wonky - I remember having this happen in the past

[molten swift]

It's really exhausting esp for a channel where you can expect most of us to already be exhausted before these conversations.

[eternal skiff]

I got a lot of participations in the survey I've made earlier that month, and I wanted to thank everyone again for sharing it and contributing! On another note I've been thinking about a conversation we had a while back, about visible, cosmetic representation of disabilities.

I hadn't included anything about it in the survey because I felt I didn't have enough material to go off of, but I remember we had talked about including hearing aids, and canes, and other mobility aids, like prothetic limbs. Does anyone have other suggestions?

[glad light]

knee/ankle braces?
i do wonder about how canes could actually be implemented, especially considering how the movement system in the game works.

[radiant silo]

Braces, compression gloves/socks, wheelchairs/walkers, glasses, (medical) corsets

[eternal skiff]

I hadn't thought of braces even tho I got limbs detachable like damaged and old Barbie dolls lmaooo thanks for the reminder.

And yeah sadly that's a concern I got about the cane, it's not something that's easy to implement, even in modding like in the Sims 4 because the physics of mobility aids just.... Never really got studied in the game design industry rip

@radiant silo more glasses would be good and all ideas sound good, even if some would also be difficult to implement.

I'm thinking vitiligo and scars too?

I guess we technically can create a character with albinism already...

Tbh the game needs more body diversity in general, it would help with disability representation in the same swoop.

[glad light]

cane/wheelchair/other mobility aids that require different types of mobility probably would have been in the game design from the beginning because of the ways it impacts how people move.
sliders for body diversity could be a good idea, but that... also should have been in the game and adapting the sheer quantity of cosmetics would be hard unless they were designed to be adjusted in that way.
idk if this is my place to speak though, as i can only comment on this from the perspective of a developer/artist and things i see in the world

[eternal skiff]

No no I agree. Those should be norms in every video games that allow real character customisation by now, even if it's not specifically a fault of S6 here. It's just too bad that they try to set a precedent but fail to do so in here

[static wolf]

I agree that at this point it will be hard to adapt the game to things like more body shapes and mobility aides (and it gets harder every patch as we have three more outfits that need to be adapted), but I do think it's something that's worth the effort, from my pov. Especially since one of their selling points was "inclusive customization"- I find it hard to believe many people can actually represent themselves with the default bodies

[glad light]

semi tangent but i do wonder what a game that implements various mobility aids would look like- would things like wheelchairs/canes be modified in such a way to make the typical run/jump movment possible, and how? locking players out of movement systems would probably be... not good.
braces and prosthetics would be easier in that there is less a fundamental change in how point a to point b is mechanically achieved.

though i suppose it could also be done in a fantasy worldbuilding way, where these other mobility aids are able to function for more people?

it seems a major issue with this is that the marketing is done in such a way it simply... isnt delivering on. im lucky? in that my body actually is represented aside from the palian version being considerably stronger/more athletic but... im not everyone

[static wolf]

(But also I'm biased because the body shape literally gives me dysphoria except for a few outfits, so I just really want it changed so my character can wear different clothes)

[warm grove]

Yeah, I never felt like I could really be "myself" in Palia, customization wise. I got really close before i stopped playing, but not in regards to showing my disability or body type.

I can shrug off the body type in a sense (not completely) though, except for the fact they have stated a few times (if i remember correctly) that they were going to add that.

But it def would be nice to have some sort of cosmetic to represent or showcase disability in some regard, i think. A walker or a cane would be something I'd look into for myself tbhtbh. Or hand braces.

[static wolf]

Yeah, I think it would have to be done in a way where you can still do every movement option- it would be interesting to consider how a wheelchair could be adapted for climbing (though the imagination that requires is probably one of the barriers to implementing it, unfortunately)

[glad light]

give wheelchair legs so its like a little mech?

[warm grove]

That'd be cute and I can see Jina actually being excited and looking into creating something similar to that, and asking Tish for design ideas for it, tbhtbh.

[static wolf]

Najuma would definitely create the coolest climbing wheelchair

[glad light]

let me know if my input is not appreciated btw, i know im not the best with words.
sometimes im having thoughts of like, but would this hurt the aesthetic theyre going for, but why should additional ways to navigate the world harm the aesthetic? its fantasyland.

[glad light]

it might be easiest to start in a singleplayer thing, and maybe npcs represented first because it leaves a little more space for jank/exploring ideas until it can actually be done properly. this area of games is... pretty unexplored.

[static wolf]

Your input is definitely appreciated ❤️
I personally don't think mobility aids hurt the aesthetic- we already have a character with a prosthetic limb, so disabilities are already built into the aesthetic in a way. And besides that, I think in a general sense fantasy aesthetic has a history of leaving more vulnerable segments of the population out for the sake of the aesthetic (ex. European fantasies with no black people), so I think it's good to build out inclusive fantasies where everyone is welcome/part of the aesthetic, not just certain groups

[glad light]

i wonder how much of it is also being scared of doing things wrong. like, thats the point of getting outside input but being wrong/learning is scary. its easier to just not do it at all.

not an excuse, but just a thought even i have sometimes. many of my characters and stories look like me and have experiences i have had.

like for me, fantasy without people in diverse backgrounds is weird because i grew up in a really diverse area. but disability is more complicated, and something i would like to explore, but dont know how to do with care yet.

[eternal skiff]

I agree, I'm not even that out of the norms and even I don't feel represented- I might be picky, but still not being able to have a fat avatar in a game that does have fat characters is ridiculous.

[eternal skiff]

The issue of diegetical accessibility would def be a problem... Like a lot of all this is about climbing. But I think even wheelchairs could be represented, if they're not changing walking/running speed as to not break pace, like... We don't have the paraglider on us at all time and we just accept it pops into existence and creates a new animation when we jump and activate it.

What if we just had to equip it as "default moving cycle" instead of the current one? And it just. Folded back into nothing when it's not in use (climbing or jumping)?

Like. It's magic. That's the explanation.

And ambulatory wheelchair users exist, and I'd wager that relative representation is better than none at all?

[eternal skiff]

Omg if it were included and addressed in lore we could have Jel working on it too!! We coule have Najuma and Tish talking about their experience about disabled characters, exchanging over the purpose creation serves, be it aesthetics or to aid them! Like Najuma's legs!!

Edit: also imagine them two talking about it and Jina timidly chiming in about her own difficulties and coping methods, if she has any in canon yet

[glad light]

good point

[eternal skiff]

Zeki could sponsor the brand of mobility aid they make... Bcus of his soft spot for Najuma..... Oooh my brain is BRAINING

[glad light]

other neat thing worth adding might be just... a squat/sit emote cuz i do have pots so the not doing anything so ima pop a squat so i dont pass out thing might be fun to do when waiting around

[warm grove]

Yes! This is the kind of stuff that I think would also help introduce it into lore, the gameplay, etc. Just have those little things from characters helping create them, or building them. Or designing, etc. It'd be nice

@glad light unless I'm misunderstanding, there is a sit emote! at least on PC, i dont know how any of that works on switch haha

[eternal skiff]

Yeah!! More emotes in general would be cool and them serving to add more representation would be so much fun.....

Tbh if I had any knowledge at all on how to manage 3D models in Unreal Engine I would just create the content myself and freaking knock at S6's door to drop it off like.... Dude I'll do the labour just give me the means because it IS doable technically

[glad light]

ue has a marketplace with animations too which are designed with commercial use in mind

[eternal skiff]

https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace/en-US/product/physically-disabled-characters

https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace/en-US/product/rigged-wheelchair-pack-10-in-1

https://www.unrealengine.com/marketplace/en-US/product/walking-sticks-pack

So stuff like this? Except I'm guessing that S6 would only have a use of the blueprints, "each consisting of a Skeletal Meshes and Animation Sequences"? But the meshes would be useless?

Editing this as I find more usable things (maybe) (i'm not Unreal Engine literate)

[glad light]

ping me about this in a few hours i have to get ready for work

[eternal skiff]

That being said those are the only posts on that marketplace that are on disabled people explicitely. Which is a bit sad

@glad light okok!!

[eternal skiff]

Omg wait

why do we stick to wheelchairs

like yes ok that's realistic and realistic representation does matter to a point, and tbh if we could have the opinion of people who are in fact using wheelchairs it'd be great, BUT

Palia is a world where magic is usabled legally by Humans. What if there were just. Floating devices to sit on. Or mini Galdurs who carry you in some way. Not typical, humanoid Galdur, but as a technology it could be like Baymax is in the Pixar movie, adaptable?

Imagine your avatar being able to use a magical swing with flowers and ivy plants on it that just... Takes them places. Or a broom. But not as a mount, because a mount's purpose in game design is to be better than default walking. Just as an equivalent.

Maybe there's even Yokais that could be used in the lore as little helpful creatures? I mean they did make Kitsunes friendly

[glad light]

oki work is slow so im back

• my comment on animations from the marketplace was mostly in regards to emotes because there are a lot of them, but it would essentially be taking the animation data and matching it to a mesh. the default meshes would probably not be useful, but its a thing

and i like that idea! something sorta like crutches that modifies to support the player's need for movement could also be cool, like oop, climbing? time to help make handholds and pull ya up

though this sort of thing feels a bit more personal to each individual's type of disability to the point where an mmo might not be the right place for that, in that all of that would be big to code. im not sure how much data these things would take but having that many options would eventually be difficult to implement and on the user side, navigate

im 100% gonna be keeping some of these ideas in my pocket for char designs in the silly lil game im working on tho :o

[eternal skiff]

it's true it's true but i'm not rlly trying to be realistic for now, i'm more throwing ideas out there and brainstorming them krkrkrkr

I think at this point in gaming we should use the Overton Effect to our advantage for advances to be made, thinking outside the box or the bounds of what's been done before-- because trying to be simple and "reasonable" about it wouldn't really serve us in being heard and listened to. It hasn't so far.

[glad light]

good point, its fun to think about! makes those much more important, yet technically simpler suggestions seem more reasonable while also making an interesting goal for the future

games like vrchat that have a lot of user generated content might be an excellent medium for exploring this

i was really hoping me saying work was slow would get people to actually come in and make me do my job, dagnabbit >_>

[old vector]

i will say there's a benefit to it mimicing real life beyond just realism. like, many wheelchair users view their wheelchair as an extension of their own body.

and yes you can change whatever you'd like in an mmo, even in regards to your body, but you may not want to.

does that make sense?

[eternal skiff]

it does! so as a compromise, we could have both wheelchair models or more fantastical/technofuturistic alternatives? Frankly this is the type of thought-train that could use more input from the discussed party. I'll see it if it's still possible to include it in future community projects.

[glad light]

btw i just finished this book. it was a good read.
made me think a lot. it seems up this channel's alley

[eternal skiff]

Oooooh on the same branch may I recommand Disability Visibility: First-person Stories from the twenty-first century edited by Alice Wong!! It is difficult to read because it bluntly addresses and quotes ableists, but it's really good and can be comforting as well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHjGjhPFrM0&ab_channel=Libro.fm

[glad light]

plopped that on my wanna read list

[pastel mica]

From a technical perspective a cane would change the walk cycle of the model a bit and it would need a left/right side variant. Forearm crutches (I'm not sure of the proper name for them) would be similar situation.

Wheelchairs and the like would involve entirely different animations. Definitely doable though.

In terms of canes though it would be cool to have them and then it turns into a tool when you go to use one.

[green kelp]

Seeing that Nightingale has a page listing current accessibility features (which are quite a few) and that Palia has this channel is so discouraging.

[pastel mica]

That's good to know that Nightingale has them. Ive been looking forward to that game for a while. 😮

[warm grove]

I've heard the game runs pretty clunky though, sadly! Either way, when games just drop, i usually try to wait a while so they can patch things out and iron it up. It looks interesting and it's nice to know that the game has accessibility features. I always get so happy

[pastel mica]

My only basis for survival games ATM is Ark SE and Valheim so my experience isn't much.

[eager seal]

True, and Palia should have one, but I just looked through that page and there are only four features that Palia doesn’t have that would actually do anything.
Gamepad Dead Zone, Custom Waypoints, hold to gather, and Reduce player breath sounds.
Everything else palia has or literally wouldn’t do anything if implemented (like arachnophobia mode)

[wispy iron]

Now that there's a few people in here:

I'm struggling with my vertigo these days.
And I really want to play, so:

Does anyone know a good "vertigo friendly " game with similarities to palia? I love this game! Used to love Warframe, and donkey Kong (🤣) other than that I only play merge games, left 4 dead, in silence etc. But none of them are really vertigo friendly 😅

Sincerely

• "desperate for something to do when most games are no-go, I can't physically read books like this, and ears get tired from audiobooks"

[green kelp]

Brightness? Granular audio? Speech input? Palia's accessibility needs being fewer just makes the complete lack of accessibility features more glaring. They can't even be bothered to include low hanging fruit like brightness controls.

[desert inlet]

Or adjustable text size 🙃

[pastel mica]

They haven't bothered with the bits they could do that the engine has built in support for.

https://docs.unrealengine.com/5.0/en-US/accessibility-in-unreal-engine/

[static wolf]

Also while arachnophobia mode wouldn't do much because there are no spiders, I think a mode that more generally replaces bugs could be beneficial for some people (ex. The centipedes can bother some people a lot, and they just pop up when you mine)

[lost obsidian]

Whenever this topic comes up, it reminds me of how Satisfactory handled this. They just replaced spiders with static JPEGs of cats and people absolutely love it

[static wolf]

Omg that's so cute

[hoary heron]

Lethal Company literally replaced theirs with the word SPIDER in red block letters. The sound is terrifying but the visual makes me cackle.

[ember girder]

Heyya, guys! Just a friendly reminder of Community Guideline 1: Let's prioritize respect and kindness above all. We all know that we are striving for the improvement of the game-criticism, discussion, and debates about the game are fine but we hope we can refrain from using inflammatory words promoting violence in any form towards others.

Thank you very much!

[eager seal]

Woops, I missed the voice-chat features, my bad.

I admit that as I play mainly on Switch, I don’t know what the graphical & video settings include on PC. If they don’t have brightness, that is a big issue.

[warm grove]

There's no brightness/contrast/gamma slider for PC either.

[eager seal]

Switch has a built-in brightness slider so I had assumed that’s why it wasn’t included.

[warm grove]

That's fair, and i can understand that. But yeah, it's just not a thing for PC and has been something that we've asked for in general since the beginning.

[green kelp]

The CVAA is a great tool for forcing the hand of companies like S6. "Inflammatory words promoting violence" 🤦

[eager seal]

Also: My apologies if this message came across as a judgement or attack on either game.
Tone can be hard to communicate through text. My intention was to be reassuring.

[warm grove]

I think a lot of us understand here that tone can be difficult to portray and read.

[eternal skiff]

Yeah that intervention had me puzzled, what happened? There's nothing in chat hinting at someone being disrespectful

[eternal skiff]

Your message was frankly just fine, unless entire chunks were edited? It's important info to have, even if it turned out you were missing on some details

[cyan flame]

If you mean "farming sim where you can play also with other players", the only that comes to my mind would be Stardew Valley. You can look some gameplays up on YT to see how things would go for you.

[wispy iron]

Thanks, I'll definitely check it out 🙌

[silk mountain]

Roots of Pacha also has multiplayer and is a really fun farm sim.

[eternal skiff]

My Time at Portia is sometimes free on the Epic Games store and the other titles of the IP might be a better single-player alternative than Palia.

But you might also want to check out Fortnite's Lego mode, since it's free and allows multiplayer? I've heard it can be played on more private and peaceful servers than the usual game, and allows a whole bunch of farming sim mechanics on top of others. Now I didn't try it nor research it in depths myself so I recommand double checking beforehand as to not waste time.

[radiant sun]

So they're gonna be on Steam in March and still haven't addressed accessibility at all.

[cyan flame]

Yeahhh. My senses are all a tingle of the "this game's gonna be bomb reviewed the moment it's dropped in that store" kind

[pastel mica]

I'll definitely be writing a review on steam once we can and include the lack of accessibility features. Public commentary on it is really the one big thing we can do to get it acknowledge.

Small aside: I still think games with third party launchers going through Steam (and similar) is weird.. because you still need the other launchers anyway to run the game. 😓 I know this is all just ultimately to get more eyes on Palia.

[radiant sun]

I'll 100% be writing a review and it certainly won't be a good one.

It's hard watching a game that could have been so good die become something so unlike what you thought.

[pastel mica]

There is so much about this game I do like - primarily the story and the characters. But it's lacking so much in other areas it still leaves a lot to be desired.

[radiant sun]

Same. After they made clear they don't care about accessibility it really soured my taste of the game.

I've asked in every channel, including directly in a reply to a sixer, and it's been ignored so I guess that answers my question. Update: I got a nodding fit reaction to asking if they can ask about accessibility. It's a literal crumb, but I guess it's something?

[bold bough]

You weren't ignored. #💬│palia-general message

[radiant sun]

Yeah I just got the notification for that now.

[noble kelp]

It's such a non-answer, and one they've been giving from the very beginning

[old vector]

im so clucking peeved off fiddlesticks i hate this 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 (trying to not get my thing removed) im so angry

[radiant sun]

Yeah. It's the same thing we've been told from the beginning of closed beta. I would like to believe that they're actually working on stuff, but after all this time I find it hard to believe.

[quartz maple]

unless someone who is a higher up or the ceo of s6 speaks up, i dont care what anyone else at s6 says about accessability says. id rather hear it from the person whos running everything and the truth if they actually care or are just trying to keep brownie points to feel good about themselves

[green kelp]

The only people at S6 that look in here are the mods so they can accuse people of promoting violence. Worthless.

[pastel mica]

Mentioning x accessibility features are on the docket for the future would be something at least. Even without dates or version deadlines.

[granite kite]

Hello, everyone. Stepping in quickly because I can see that this is getting heated. I want to remind people of two things:

• People are allowed to share their feedback in the game as long as they're not insulting other people. It is okay if some of those feedback are negative.
• If we step in and ask people to be more polite in sharing their feedback or take moderator actions, that is because we feel this conversation is moving into a territory that is upsetting for the overall chat.
  May we always keep in mind our rule #1: Respect and kindness above all in sharing our suggestions/feedback for the game. Thank you so much for your patience and understanding.

Furthermore, if you feel the need to have your feedback shared directly with our team, please feel free to utilize the following channels:

!feedback

[hardy vigil]

Feedback & Suggestions

Looking for where to share your game feedback & suggestions for Palia?

• To share feedback directly with the team: https://palia.info/feedback
• To discuss feedback with other players: #🦋│issues-discussions
• To read the latest Dev Updates: https://palia.com/news
• For bug reports, contact: https://support.palia.com

[wispy iron]

I haven't really been a active part of this discussion, but I've been watching, and reading closely.

While I understand that the mod team, Devs, and Shep's don't want this to get ugly. I also can see clearly why things seem to be heating up a bit 🙂

I find it quite concerning, and abelist that these concerns we as a disabled community are voicing doesn't seem to be actively taken into consideration/to heart. But rather the fact that people are getting more upset is visibly audible to you.

Please read this comment with the kindness I'm trying to convey! ❤️

I think that if you'd comment properly on the accessibility concerns, and not just the perceived tone of the concerns, we would feel heard, instead of "bum"hurt! ☺️

[radiant sun]

I've noticed, unless messages are quickly deleted, that sometimes those messages come in when conversations are completely respectful too - it can feel kind of infantalizing sometimes

[green kelp]

Heated? 🤦

[radiant sun]

Also these feedback channels, when used to talk about accessibility, are ignored so there's no point in using them if our concerns aren't even addressed there.

A few weeks ago people were in here talking about how using those feedback forms to talk about accessibility were never responded to, but other feedback that was unrelated to accessibility, was given responses so telling us to go there when it clearly isn't being heard there feels a little 🤔

[warm jungle]

Okay I know I've only been talking in here lately to grump (I've been around lurking! just didn't want to talk over people with more skin in the game than me, and I've been distracted with other things) but it's not really a great look to be finger wagging at this channel especially for getting "heated". Especially when it's...not.

You don't get to make a channel for something like accessibility discussions when the game is so hostile against it then expect everyone to always be sunshine and daisies.

I feel like I see more mod intervention in this channel especially when it isn't needed as opposed to when things are going haywire anywhere else

[radiant sun]

Literally. Especially when that's the only time this channel is even acknowledged compared to other channels. (Also it's funny that message came right after proving the message above its point)

[warm jungle]

I've been definitely having issues with this server overall about how moderation feels like it's not about actually protecting users so much as it is trying to keep the boat from rocking, though that goes past this lmkjahsdas, but it definitely annoys me when I see the mod copypastas here so often when there's no actual reason for there to be. It comes off more as "shut up and be quiet" than actually trying to keep the peace.

And well, that's obviously not going to help with the understandable frustration as to all these issues as it is

[pastel mica]

Admittedly I have no idea what goes on in other channels as I have everything besides info & updates and the feedback channels muted/hidden.

[warm jungle]

I've dipped out of most of the discord since I moved onto other games, mostly I just check up on here and discussions, but it definitely feels like it's the same as ever.

[pastel mica]

During closed beta I had all the channels still visible and it quickly became sensory overload for me essentially. As all big servers tend to do.

[wispy iron]

U and me both! I only ever read in here, and in the news/status ones:p general once in a blue 🌙

I'm still hopeful tho, that I'll be able to play again soon. I love this game! And I really want to be able to play more than 30min a time again 😅

[pastel mica]

I do hope things get better and that's why I'm still here now even though I don't play near as much as I did initially.

[green kelp]

It is the same thing the mods do in General when they suddenly pipe up about off-topic except they do it in here disproportionately. It is just to discourage conversation for fear of getting bonked, hence the vague messages.

[quartz maple]

things werent even remotely getting heated. what the heck??

at this point either s6 just comes clean about their intentions for accessability or we can keep going in these pointless circles 😔

[green kelp]

2 days in a row they've pulled it. At least, it is attention from S6.

[warm grove]

Yeah, this is the 2nd day in a row, and I just assumed maybe the first time there was messages maybe deleted I missed. But it definitely looks clear now, that isn't/wasn't the case, at all.

I understand the mods have their own "jobs" to do, even though, and this is why it's in quotation marks, doesn't seem to be doing a whole bunch from what I can tell. It's nice that some are trying to be friendly with others, or pretend they're "part of the community" (which yes, technically they are), but sometimes you have to make it seen/known you're a mod instead of just...

Acting as if you're just a message to randomly be said here and there without much notice. I just hope some of this is because S6 has told them that they can't actually do much in the modding department, and/or are just very underqualified or even overwhelmed, but... it gets upsetting.

Especially when people are just talking about why they are frustrated, without it actually getting heated at anybody (at least nobody here) in particular. And even if it does, we usually pull it back and start to go take a break, from what I've noticed. (not counting when people come in to actually cause problems on purpose or anything.) People here have just been expressing how the lack of accessibility is awful.

Just more and more of this is just making me more and more not hopeful for Palia.

[eternal skiff]

I think writing those on Twitter or other media could be worth it, especially if we do that as an organized group. At the very least having a CM take note of our outburst would be worth it.

So far, it doesn't bode well, I keep thinking back to the refusal message the reddit server wrote me when I asked them for permission to post my survey... The way they went about it has me thinking it's more about censorship than actual security concerns.

I decided to try a more blunt approach in general, since so far nothing sticks. If it gets deleted quietly I'll take a less dignified route about it all, off this server and online in general, frankly.

[eternal skiff]

Your studio has failed to be kind to us disabled players in how you keep avoiding the blatant issue of inaccessibility in your game, that markets itself as inclusive.

Your studio fails to be kind to us because it isn't even decent.

The messages previous to your intervention were nowhere near actual heat. You've been using the kindness rule as a faux promise of keeping peace when instead, you (general you of you and your employers, whether or not you are an employee or benevolent) are only limiting our means of expression over a subject of what is, in the end, mere equality.

People have been voicing their discontent with your blatant casual discrimination, with your silence on something so simple to address.
They have used the correct official means of communication, and by intervening without being @ you've proved that your team is well aware of our exchanges.

Yet so far your studio still fails to acknowledge us.

Do not come to patronize us as if we haven't already seized the proper means of communications. We have. You have failed to respond.

[cyan flame]

https://tenor.com/view/queendugif-hell-yeah-thats-it-gif-13653942

(I not always post messages or replies in this channel/whole server, that doesn't mean I'm not reading other people's messages. )

[warm grove]

It just saddens me that accessibility still isn't properly talked about, mentioned, or anything, and it's going to be releasing on steam. It was expected, Very very expected, but it's still disappointing and discouraging to see.

[eternal skiff]

I've always aimed to be proactive, constructive and relatively civil in this channel, because I decided to give the studio the benefit of doubt, and wanted this channel to be built up in good faith.

This message we got from moderation has damaged that already dwindling faith (mind you I say faith because it is not trust; faith is baseless as opposed to trust, in my mind).

I can play the song and dance. But there are hecking limits.

I work 10 hours a day to make ordinary school accessible to disabled students, I'm a cr!pplepunk to my core and an active French anti-ableism militant, during the heights of the Covid crisis I worked in a health home with residents suffering of various forms of cerebral palsy and held a 35 years old woman's hand as she was losing the last of her cognitive abilities because of ableist mistreatment, I've helped multiple people deal with the aftermath of losing their loved ones to systemic ableist abuse, I will not treat accessibility in a video game that presents itself as inclusive as a lost cause, or a small issue, nor will I let go of this whole mess until it either gets better or collapses on itself, because I've seen how smth as simple as video games can make people who are otherwise isolated because being unhealthy ostracises us, and if this is too heated for the Palia official Discord, then Palia as a whole doesn't deserve to be a thing. Cus it's not inclusive, nor cozy. It's complacent with a status quo of systemic exclusion whose violence is silent and unseen.

[glad light]

so much of these problems seem to be marketing. is palia actually an inclusive game? is it cozy to everyone or just to people who enjoy a particular playstyle?
many cozy games are not marketed as such. by marketing it this way it builds expectations. palia is clearly not delivering. this is harmful because it will be touted as an example.
the problems wouldnt go away if it wasnt marketed as cozy/inclusive.... but thats because right now, it is not.
we need transparency. what is actually being done right now? new features take time. where are these on the list of priorities?

[woven knot]

I gave up waiting for them to respond to accessibility concerns and I just quit

[cyan flame]

Speaking of "making some noise", I did my (very humble) part on Youtube, a là "IYKYK"

[quartz maple]

people wondering why were finally snapping vs us being treated like absolute dirt ever since the game was concived but it promotes inclusivity and all but hasnt done a thing and made it even more inaccessable, while adding in barebones options

[eternal skiff]

I DON'T EVEN WANT IMMEDIATE SOLUTIONS CUS I KNOW THAT'S NOT THAT EASY

But at least them acknowledging they screwed up and then telling us where they're at on that side of things. Like c'mon.

Urg. Frankly I'd have been willing to be much more patient still, had it not been for that insulting mod message. We're not freaking children to pacify with some meaningless, rehashed diatribe.

[green kelp]

Warned for being rude. Got em right in the feels. This is getting ridiculous, mods.

[radiant sun]

Good god and the discord-server-thoughts channel still isn't back so we can't even voice our concerns about this behavior in an open space.

[green kelp]

Soon, it will be just a "All Praise Palia" channel and a "Slight Concerns" channel (that you can't get a role for so can't post in.

[quartz maple]

yup. im never stepping foot in general again unless its to read whateve mess is going on there

[eternal skiff]

@wispy iron still here!

[wispy iron]

Haha I forgot to extend the issues tab 🤣

But can you blame me for actually thinking for a sec it was removed? 😅

[eternal skiff]

Tbh no, I can't

[quartz zephyr]

I'm a big lurker in these channels usually, but as a person that doesn't normally struggle with accessibility, I just wanted to thank y'all for having conversations about it. The topic is something that helps me think about how to better serve clients I work with at my job, so it's been really beneficial to read up in here. ❤️

[placid gale]

I have to say I've only gotten more disappointed in S6 as time has gone on when they still haven't been transparent about anything important.
it feels like they're actually never planning to add any more accessibility and are only keeping up pretences so people don't leave. even if they said tomorrow that they're gonna be working on all the things people have asked for in 6 month's time it would be better than nothing at all and leaving us in the dark and never mentioning accessibility ever, but instead it feels like every update and patch is always gonna be too busy with events and outfits and characters. we need a roadmap, dates of updates to look forward to for accessibility options being added gradually, something.

if they don't start being much more transparent soon I'm just not gonna play palia again because it's leaving a bitter taste in my mouth, and I'm sure we're all tired of trying to fight to be treated better to a brick wall that sometimes pops in to tell you to tone down your emotions. I already have to fight to be treated better by my family and work places in real life, it's upsetting having to do it for a game that we're supposed come home to and feel safe.

[green kelp]

I would encourage everyone to post a review on Steam, when able, voicing your feelings about S6 and Palia. I hope the Steam release is as memorable as the Swtich release was lackluster.

[north mesa]

Lots of things are true at once - this is effectively a player only channel that was removed when feedback was removed from discord then restored for player to player discussion at player request, no feedback in discord is official due to volume and understaffed CM team so it is unlikely to be seen, the discord moderation is severely understaffed(sort of surprised that folks have said it is staff/contract rather than player volunteers honestly), the subreddit is no longer moderated by s6, the lack of basic accessibility features is frankly shocking in light of the ones built into the engine, the lack of a publicly acknowledged accessibility plan or engineer or team is absurd, s6 is making changes in patch cadence and approach approach to reduce new bugs (longer between patches) and fix bugs (alternating focus between content and fixes each month), 0.176 patch notes didn't mention several bug fixes included in it, s6 fell victim to the shareholder value/profit bs layoffs, CS/help desk isn't handling accessibility feedback remotely well if it's not even getting an auto response via the feedback form

[placid gale]

I didn't know some of that, thank you for sharing. I didn't know any of the moderators were volunteers and that honestly feels shocking and ridiculous, it sounds like most of the problems S6 have are because they are so understaffed, I wish the higher ups would give them more funding so they can hire some more people cause that's ridiculous for a live MMO like this

[old vector]

whew i just got unmuted and this is the only channel im gonna look at bc abled people treat disabled people like dirt and people like to cover it up 😄

it's not just an issue of understaffing, it's an issue of higher ups actively not punishing instigators and bigots, even knowing full well what's going on. DARVO is rampant in this server.

[green kelp]

I had a stupid amount of messages deleted yesterday. 1 mentioned the lack of inclusivity and action on bigots. It seems like S6 would rather people find out for themselves.

[cyan flame]

I never had the chance to write lenghty reviews on Steam, so I need to ask: is there a character limit for reviews?

[quartz maple]

dont think so

we shouldnt hold back a word in our steam reviews and go 100x in exposing s6 and the state of palia. abled people can argue all they wanna but when you advertise and say your game is inclusive but it isnt, then you deserve the backlash thats about to happen. they cant delete steam reviews so theyll be visible no matter what, especially if people look at the negative reviews compared to positive

[cyan flame]

I had to look up what "DARVO" means. All my Warframe-rotten brain thought for a split second has been "what did that sketchy arm dealer do?"

@quartz maple Not holding back is exactly why I asked about a possible characters limit.

[placid gale]

oh trust me I know, I had a horrible time in this discord at one point in the closed beta of a bigoted person saying really horrible things and that message got left up for ages while mine and other's reacting to that saying that this discord wasn't doing enough to stop people being discriminatory and hateful got deleted really quickly and given poor excuses for why. it was incredibly upsetting and frustrating and told me that s6 cares more about "peace" where everyone shuts up and doesn't say anything negative rather than actual justice or equality

[old vector]

oh, basically it's when an abuser says you're abusing them. so if i say "you're being racist" and someone says i'm bullying and harassing them by saying that.

[quartz maple]

the mods on this discord just dont know what moderating even means it feels like. its like s6 didnt do any background checks for discord or reddit mods. a company thats been around for 5 years now with ex blizz and riot devs. my behind 🙄

[north mesa]

Volunteer moderators is standard for reddit, modequette used to require no mods were paid but it shifted to no compensation for specific mod actions (ie no bribes or quid probqou) so a bunch of companies run their own subreddits now as pr or help desk. S6 tried that and it didn't go well so they turned it over to players/users - sixers and shepps still have flair so it's still offcialish like a partner community.

Proper/adequate active round the clock moderation at the scale would require so so so many people that it's cost prohibitive - 2 people for each busy channel and 1 for each other sections 24/7 even in just English is really expensive which is why I expected it to be like 5 sixers and then like 20+ volunteers moderating the discord

[green kelp]

What made me realize how bent a good portion of the player base is was when my partner got a 10 minute bigoted rant directed at them, the mods did nothing and others in Discord told them not to complain because it made them feel uncomfortable. Most awesome Discord ever.

[old vector]

the toxic positivity of this community makes me want to jump off of a very tall something

[quartz maple]

if your a company making a professonal game, and knowing how rampant issues are on two of your social platforms are, why are they doing the bare minimum in the first place? they got 50 mil in funding and i bet more from the constant cash shop purchases. its no where near an explenation or an excuse as to how horrific the discord is managed. maybe they should of thought about it more before commiting to everything

like volonteer games do better at managing a discord with 100,000+ members then an entire company. when indie developers do better then a 5+ year company, you know your screwed regardless of what anyone says. i dont care about their side at all with how this discord has been managed and how so many of the people are in it.

[old vector]

to be clear, i mean toxic positivity mostly in the sense of covering up negativity instead of fixing the issue, not in the sense of "oh everythings happy all the time and i'm being cranky"

[quartz maple]

general chat is the worse of it all in this discord with how there's barely any slowdown mode, yet so many other channels get 30+ seconds or longer. its just laughable at this point

[radiant sun]

honestly not surprised seeing as the shepp that harassed people is still a shep

[quartz maple]

ugh god. i need to remind myself to block and report them for that mess. this just prove s6 is happy being super disconnected with their fanbase

[north mesa]

(got auto deleted for an idiom so trying again) it seems that only CMs know how badly off the rails an official community can go and that it is 100 times worse with live chat and that gaming is the worst offender - how leadership doesn't know this 30+ years in to this problem existing, I don't know. The work simply isn't valued and most experienced CMs refuse to work in gaming.

Treating community management as a necessary evil that you try to skrimp on is not smart - just like cleaning, maintenance, and it a well running team is worth so so much to the company's health

[old vector]

this makes me furious.

and i know for a fact there was a bunch of evidence (like 10+ some odd pages) brought against a player here and the cms refused to do anything because said player is in their dms. and this player had access to modmail bcos one of the mods was sharing modmails with her.

[quartz maple]

wtf y'all put this in the steam reviews and DOCUMENT THIS RN!

[silk mountain]

Wtf???? That's messed up. That mod should be fired.

[radiant sun]

Exactly. There were multiple people that had issues with said shepp. The favoritism is wild

[old vector]

they're not 😄 and this person is still in the community. and has threatened to doxx people before so like i feel afraid talking about it

[green kelp]

The Discord seems more a frat hobby than a professional communication hub.

[silk mountain]

It's been an issue for a while. I got scolded for pinging mods to remove a n@zi sympathizer rather than people agreeing with me 🙄

[old vector]

oh no this person isnt in s6, this is a normal player like us. who the mods have been sheltering and covering up.

[radiant sun]

Part of me feels like that's why they closed the discord-server-thoughts channel so people can't talk openly about this kind of misconduct, like we've had to in the past - forcing us to use modmail which many of us don't trust will be handled correctly.

[quartz maple]

frat boy house behavior fr. when steam is launched ooooh i cant WAIT to see the mess that will happen and hopefully the press covering it >:]

[north mesa]

That and 3/4ths of the content was about the game instead of discord

[radiant sun]

That too, but that's honestly somewhat because the channels are so redundant already

[green kelp]

I was sad to see Einarbot got laid off and they have some free intern named Gearbot doing the same job.

[old vector]

btw. i do have proof. but obvi im like scared bc obvious reasons

[quartz maple]

dont hold back a thing when it releases on steam and we can write reviews. they cant do a thing about steam reviews

[elder veldt]

Hey everyone, there's quite a few new faces here since I was last around but it's really good to see this channel still around and giving voice to the disability community—us—in light of the various concerns that have been going on for some time now.

I've always heard, felt, and shared the frustrations and sometimes even the despair that comes from what you're all talking about. I know you're all exhausted, angry, tired. So... I think maybe now is a good a time as any to roll out a project that's been in the works for some time now. Quite some time.

[old vector]

ooo this sounds exciting

[elder veldt]

TL;DR Shepps and Palians come together to make a survey for you to provide feedback on accessibility in Palia, you should take it here: https://forms.gle/ttxAFhdA4a79fLdm6

MelodicBlue, Mavebrick, Admiralsky and I have all come together to work towards having S6 consult the Palian community on accessibility and disability. We can't go into full details (because everything is still being discussed), or guarantee anything at this early stage. But! We feel confident this effort will be able to reach S6's attention.

Our only hope and goal, is that we consolidate and magnify everything that's been done here already.

At this time, we have produced a survey which aims to give you, the player, a chance to comprehensively provide your feedback and experiences with accessibility in Palia. Regardless of whether you have a disability or not, whether you are affected by accessibility or not, whether you still actively play Palia or not, this survey is for you.

If you know others who may be interested in this survey, we encourage you to share it with them, as well.

More information and an open letter from us can be found in the survey itself. Thank you for taking the time to read all this, please remember to take care of yourselves~

EDIT: The survey has been extended by a week and closes on <t:1710572340:F> (local to your timezone!)

[hoary heron]

A few questions you may have:

Isn't there already a survey about accessibility and Palia?
Yes! While there are a few questions that overlap, the data we're gathering in this survey focuses on other impacts of accessibility (and the lack thereof) in Palia, and will hopefully help us reach investors and leadership at S6. Prior to the release of this survey, Bruje was consulted and credited, and their survey is another part of the comprehensive package we're presenting to S6.

Isn't this even more unpaid labor on an already taxed community to provide?
Absolutely. We acknowledge that (it's unpaid for us as well), and when we start collecting testimonials (more thoroughly explained in the Open Letter within the survey) that topic is definitely going to be a part of mine. We invite you to join us as much as your spoons/battery-power/energy allows. The survey is what we're starting with, and its length adjusts based on your responses to save you the effort of sifting through questions that are irrelevant to your situation.

Please Note:

• This project is a comprehensive effort to knock on the doors of S6 and hold out a hand in partnership. Whether they will clasp it firmly and we move forward together remains to be seen. But frustrated and tired as I am, I still can't help but hope.

• This is not intended to replace/stifle conversation in this channel, or any other public conversations. It's simply a method to capture the experiences brought up in these discussions in a centralized location and help drive this information across a variety of communiation styles.

[old vector]

this is so well done and professionally made :OO

[quartz maple]

nice just got warned. warn me all you want mods, im not going to be nice cause im absoluely over the state of the discord rn

[old vector]

what did you get warned FOR???? being mad? i hate that the mods feel comfy warning us for our emotions LOL

[quartz maple]

i got the "kindness above all" rule warning. i got warned once for it before. idc about the warnings. they dont mean a thing in general. but if i suddenly stop talking or disappear form the disc then they banned me for being rightfully angry then lol

[silk mountain]

Funny how it's only ever the victims who have to be kind, and not the bigots or anyone else

[quartz maple]

freaking real. its ridiculous

[green kelp]

If the mods did something about the bigots, nothing would have to be said.

[static wolf]

This sounds like the kind of thing that would be good to reach out to one of the CMs (like asherelle) about- I know the CMs are always busy with a million things (especially since December now that there's only 2), but like this seems very important and something to raise to the highest ups

[old vector]

oh no. nononono. the cms have been covering this up. actively. they did go to the cms about this directly and the cms covered it up and kept the mods in charge. a 10 page document was brought to their attention outlining this behavior.

and yes, the cms who are still active.

[quartz maple]

i dont think the CMs can do anything with how garbage managemnt is at s6. and whay eyore said. the CMs arent innocent in this, regardless if theyre just forced to follow orders or not.

[elder veldt]

I appreciate that! It helps that all four of us had lots of contributions to it. We encourage everyone to participate if they can, and to send it to everyone they know!

Edit: I also freed my schedule up for today and tomorrow to facilitate any questions, comments, concerns regarding the survey. Or if people needed help with anything, I'm around.

[radiant sun]

Yeah...there's a reason why many of us don't use modmail and it's for that reason; there's not much trust with management at this moment.

[old vector]

the cms are who i'm talking about when i say people are participating in coverups.

[quartz maple]

yeah. i only used it ONCE before realizing it was just pointless to do

[old vector]

there's actively distrust for me. the cms (yes. two of them. yes.) are on this person's side and are actively making decisions based on her. it's not just them being too neutral, it's them taking her side. scary stuff

[radiant sun]

100%. It's not all happening in a vaccum

[quartz maple]

i wanna say thats very criminal and could have legal reprecussions but at the same time i am not knowledgeable about stuff like this :x

[old cargo]

I don't know what's being discussed here but I was requested to pin a survey and I will do it. If there are any concerns about CM behavior then let's raise it properly. I am not aware of what's being said here. I am going to take a lunch now. Thank you.

[quartz maple]

raising it properly hasnt done a thing im assuming however, so thats null and void in its entirety. either face up or dont. your welcome to block me.

[radiant sun]

The only options given to "raise it properly" are directly through the hands of those that the concerns are about

[old vector]

im just going to ignore that lol bc i know it's been raised properly

[cyan flame]

Love the initiative. The only thing that boggles my mind is that the userbase has to get to this kind of lengths to have proper/effective accessibility tools implemented in a game. 💀
I had yet to see this happening, as all games played so far already had their share of actual tools available (even when still in beta). I guess there do be a first time for everything.

[old vector]

yes, who am i going to go to about cm behavior???? the devs??

[elder veldt]

Thank you Ashe! Sincerely appreciate the pin.

[radiant sun]

it's giving when companies go "our company investigated our own crimes and have determined we are innocent"

[old vector]

sometimes i rly wish this was more private or like a groupchat or something

[elder veldt]

It is what it is, I know almost everyone is pretty much beyond the point of exhausted and fed up. So I get the anger and resentment. I know for many it even feels too little, too late. But I sincerely am here to help where I can and put in the work where I can if that's what it takes. The survey is just a start.

I think everyone here should take a look at that open letter in the survey. There's a lot more coming than just the survey. https://forms.gle/ttxAFhdA4a79fLdm6

[static wolf]

The issue I've always had with roles to access channels is that it can be challenging to know how to add a role (or that you need to add a role), which makes it so people who want to participate can't. So a role is kinda a double edged sword because it can keep ableists out but can also keep disabled people and allies out

[pastel mica]

Yeah. Like the wiki channels role you have to know where to go to opt into it since it's not with the others.

[old vector]

hi! i just wanted to ask, what would you put things like asking for a toggle instead of click and hold under for 5-A?

[green kelp]

The whole opt-in decision was a poor choice, in my opinion. Feedback is the whole point of beta so any barrier to doing that should be removed.

[old vector]

i agree, and i dont necessarily want a role that says i'm disabled and care ab accessibility, even though im v open about it, bc ppl are rude. mostly i just hate that this server tolerates ableism so much.

[fathom charm]

I respect the initiative but please don’t do free labor for multi million dollar companies. They have all the resources and ability to do this already they are actively choosing not to. you only reward bad behavior by doing this for them

[elder veldt]

Hey Eyore~ I think you're talking about keybinding of sorts. Do you think Mouse / Keybinding / Controller limitations might be the right category?

[old vector]

probably!! :DD

[old vector]

respectfully, yk how much i love you nande, i think this might be the only way to get their attention,which i agreee SUUUUUCKS, but it's kind of loselose as a disabled person. and if you want to, you should, even recognizing it's at your own expense. again, d*mned if you do dmnd if you dont

[elder veldt]

I hear you! I really do. I live by "capitalism stinky". But right now the options are sit here and do nothing or do something. Everyone is free to do what they think is best. I and the others have consciously made the decision to do this because we see a silver lining. Again, can't discuss it in detail. But there's a silver lining.

I have a job and I'm doing a Master's degree in Critical Disability Studies. I wouldn't do this if I thought it was a complete waste of my time, and all of yours.

[quartz maple]

its either we do something and bring s6's garbage to light or sit here and let them keep getting praise they dont deserve at all

[old vector]

just finished! 😄 mine is lowkey depressing im like i hate this game this game makes me feel doomed like there's no good in the world (not literally but its kinda got that vibe)

[elder veldt]

There have absolutely been issues. There continue to be issues. That's putting it very lightly. Nobody is happy with the way things are. You are right. And I think, if you have the energy and time for it, this survey is going to be something worth your 15 minutes to an hour today depending on just how much you have to say. If you can, I sincerely hope you're able to give it a look and see what I mean.

[warm jungle]

genuinely I do wonder who we're supposed to go to if CMs are part of the problem. because yeah, like mentioned before, there's big "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing" energy in this place and has been for a long time.

this place is more focused on not rocking the boat than keeping people safe and it's one of the reasons I'm not around as much anymore, my time playing the game aside.

[quartz maple]

yeah. im assuming no where cause we cant even contact s6 directly. i hope your there with us when steam release happens and we go marching to the battlefield

[warm jungle]

Oh yeah I am not quiet lmao. I'll speak out about stuff I don't like, even if it's part of something I do like. You should've seen the length of the feedback form I filled out for FFXIV fanfest last year hooooooo boy

[elder veldt]

Thank you so much for putting in the effort! Make sure you share it with anyone you know who should have their voices heard. We're really hoping to get as much quantitative and qualitative data to bring to the table.

[quartz maple]

i finished my survey. it may be sparce because i am very bad at conveying stuff usually

[elder veldt]

Thank you so much. Honestly it probably isn't even you being bad at conveying stuff - the process of filling out a survey can feel like waiting in an election line. Pointless. So it really becomes hard to convey anything when it all feels meaningless. We're gonna' do everything we can to make this one anything but that, though.

[past gate]

Great work on the new survey, folks! I am in awe of your productivity.

[hoary heron]

Thanks, Vexy! It's been such a great team effort and partnership between Shepps and Community because at the end of the day, we're all Palia players.

Thank you eveyone who has contributed to and/or shared the survey so far! It feels good to share skills to build this, and our stories and experiences to drive it together.

[elder veldt]

And we want every single person coming in and out of this channel, whether you talk or lurk, to know that you were an integral part of making this happen, too. Indirectly but not inconsequentially; the conversations, debates, and analysis we've all had here together is what guided our approach towards making this survey! Towards trying to find a way to constructively bring everyone's genuine, real grievances to the table.

[fair willow]

Thank you. I have put in my responses, and sent the survey to my sister who used to play.

[elder veldt]

We appreciate you and your sis for that! I've also sent this to peeps who used to play!

For people wondering what we're talking about: https://forms.gle/ttxAFhdA4a79fLdm6 (it's also now pinned to this channel, courtesy of Ashe)

[green kelp]

"Have you ever played" should be changed to "Do you currently play", to make the available answers make sense.

[hoary heron]

I don't think we can change them at present without impacting the already-captured results

Ah--I see the third answer does look a bit confusing. If no one has selected it yet, I think we can action on it

[elder veldt]

Very good catch, and just in time! Tysm!

[green kelp]

Orwell would be so fascinated by this Discord.

[eternal skiff]

You got muted?? For what?? I've never seen you behave in a way that warrants getting muted, what are they doing???

[eternal skiff]

What the *****

So I was right in screenshooting every single message I posted, uh.

What's up with that? This behaviour reeks of purposeful mismanagement.

[old vector]

for calling someone transphobic (they are transphobic, btw..)

[eternal skiff]

It's giving "we keep the peace" abusive workplace/family environment. Blame the ones calling out there's a fire and accusing them of pyromania.

[old vector]

yes, for sure darvo behavior 🫠

[eternal skiff]

What the hell. Did you get it screenshot? This is unacceptable, "transphobic" does not constitute an insult in any shape or form?????

I always knew the mods were terrible at their job but this is ridiculous, and them being volunteers as I sadly suspected is irrelevant to such lack of competence AND proper ethics.

Sorry @old vector I meant to reply to you, not myself

[old vector]

nah it got deleted before i could bcos i was being "aggressive", sadly. i shouldve ssed bc i knew it was gonna get deleted when i said it but ugh yeah

[eternal skiff]

The what now

[molten swift]

Also to be clear, the last I knew the discord mods specifically are paid staff hired by s6, as are the CMs, while the shepps are volunteers. If that is still the case then moderation issues are likely a direct reflection of s6, either they are failing to properly train and enable mods or their instructions to mods are to act as they are. Either way it's ultimately up to s6 to ensure the safety of their official discord, the company is responsible for the behavior of its employees acting on its behalf as mods and cms.

[eternal skiff]

Ok this makes me sound like I did waaay more than what I've actually done so jsyk yall did an amazing job, I'm blown away like im so happy about this

[warm grove]

Yeah, a lot of these kind of things is what makes me really really lose hope for S6 and Palia. I know it's technically not exactly a part of S6 (the mods and things), but... also, they kind of represent them in a sense when you go in their discord for the game... it doesn't look good. doesn't look great.

especially since it makes me assume that they know this happens to an extent, and/or told them to make sure this is how it is-- not as in making it an "unsafe place", but turning it into one by proxy by them just "trying to keep the peace."

It's very clear the mods either are not confident with actually being a moderator (imo) or they just aren't really around (there's some that I never see speak), try to be "too friendly", or even could just be too anxious to try to put their foot down in case they cause disruptions or not having "peace" or whatever. I'm sure ppl know what i mean by this, i hope. my words are starting to scramble and be alphabet soup in my mind currently lol.

[eternal skiff]

Yeah that reminds me, if I get given a cookie by a mod one more time I'm gonna crawl inside their walls to eat the cables and mess up their floorboard or smth

[hoary heron]

You and your efforts helped show us that folks are willing to bother with filling out a survey, and the construction of ours also included lessons learned from your foray as well! Between the two, I think we're getting a wealth of important data, both things that are useful to communicating to the Devs what we need, and useful in reaching those in executive and financial positions!

[eternal skiff]

K this sounds like it's covering up some serious shady stuff though I'm obligated to look into it, it stinks.

[warm grove]

and I know and understand modding for servers, especially ones for as massive as this one, is stressful as all heck. But, whether it's something you're being paid for, or are volunteering for, you do have a job to make sure the space is safe and/or comfortable, etc.

And this is by no means me saying they should be here 24/7-- I mean, we all have lives!--, but there's just so many times where I just don't see any mod around, or some that just seem inactive (I know of at least one who has been inactive for at least over a year, at least with posting in the discord). Which isn't great or a good look, personally.

[eternal skiff]

That's a valid concern but consider: this is making them look bad. Us going to such lenght is making their image look rotten.

And gathering the type of data our surveys have so far is key to the Disability civic movements and Disability studies in general.

With my wonky survey alone I've raised awareness and made abled people angry enough they decides against spending money on the game lmao.
Might be small but that's still an impact.
But I understand your pov and I respect it. It's just not my way.

I like to be a nuisance to people who treat me as one y default :^)

[warm grove]

and I do want to thank you, and everyone else who have taken their time to speak up a lot about this. It's very very appreciated

[eternal skiff]

I'd suggest rocking the boat in places outside of the official platforms.

I'm talking typical online civil protest stuff, like flooding tags and make it so that when someone googles "Palia", "ableism" is a keyword that pops up on the first page of results.

I've been accumulating pieces of evidence on their lackluster moderation, their liberal and hate speech-tolerant approach to conflict and community management, as well as the ableism and overall inaccessibility.

The more they come in to tell us to "express ourselves properly" the closer I get to posting it and spamming those on all the platforms I can.

Steam, Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit and maybe even Bluesky and Facebook, to start with.

It's just I have more pressing matters to attend to, (being homeless and all lmao)

If that causes damage to the game's image, it will only be by their own doing since I'm not gonna do anything other than display case their methods so

See I knew something must have happened for yall to be so over it but I do appreciate know what was actually up instead of being called a bootlicker ajfkkfkfkf but I see who the culprits were now lmao (not that I had any doubt before beside my good will and faith but hey I knew I was betting on a sick horse)

bUT WAIT A MIN I THINK I WAS HERE FOR THAT?? Except I had no idea they had been harassing people and unwittingly had sided with their version of the story 😬 yikes

I thought they had been given a hard time by S6 but I see now

[old vector]

i totally do that too sometimes when im entering a new community and they all seem peeved for some reason and im like LOL

[warm jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/혼파망-피자-당황-community-chaos-gif-16635574

[old vector]

nooooo literally except the fire is invisible so everyone seems to be freaking out for no reason BUT ITS VERY REAL. just invisible until u feel it

[eternal skiff]

I'm this close to making my first Palia fanarts and it's gonna be the characters shaming the studio for their seemingly voluntary ableism

[eternal skiff]

I just answered the survey. Thanks you again for this work.

[hoary heron]

Thank you!

For anyone coming in after work or just haven't swung through here today, here's the post about the aforementioned survey:

#♿│accessibility-discussions message

And here's a collection of anticipated questions and our responses:
#♿│accessibility-discussions message

Or your can just jump to the survey itself and read our open letter there! https://forms.gle/ttxAFhdA4a79fLdm6

[elder veldt]

I'm around and lurking for today and tomorrow, making myself immediately available for anyone who has questions or difficulties with the survey! Or if they wanted to chat about the issues in general.

We ask for you all in your help to distribute the survey to everyone you can think of who has ever played Palia. The more diverse the participants, the better.

[eternal skiff]

Will you be sharing it on other platforms?

I have started the # palia accessibility, trying to regroup the few posts already up on tumblr on the subject. Adding your work to them in reblogs might help?
https://www.tumblr.com/palia-tive?source=share

[elder veldt]

That's the goal! We need as diverse of a participant pool as possible.

[eternal skiff]

Pls @ me when you do, I'll boost it?

[elder veldt]

Yeah! This should be a great help. I encourage you to share it and distribute it to Everyone. Only sharing the survey here, or to disability/accessibility-focused groups will be interpreted as the data being skewed. We want to account for any (understandable) scrutiny the survey will receive.

[hoary heron]

That would be amazing. I technically have tumblrs but I do not fathom how to tumblr. 🤣

I'm working on drafting a tweet-sized post to share it out on my twitter and bluesky.

[eternal skiff]

Bloop https://www.tumblr.com/palia-tive/743073097367814144/hey-palia-has-the-potential-to-be-a-great-game?source=share

And what about Reddit? Are y'all gonna ask the mods permission to post the survey there too?

[hoary heron]

We'll see what we can do! I don't know if it'll go any different, but it's worth a shot.

[radiant sun]

Didn't someone else try to post the first survey there and they said no? Worth a shot anyways

[eternal skiff]

Yeah that was me but I suspect their argument to not hold much water. It sounded off

[elder veldt]

We'll make another concerted effort from our perspective and see what happens. Fingers crossed for a display of good will!

[past gate]

Please note that Eyore's representation of events is no less biased than anyone else's. This event was moderated 3 months ago and the full story is not represented. Moderation actions are not public knowledge unless they're made that way. People are welcome to believe what they want, but please take this event's description in particular with a grain of salt.

[elder veldt]

Of course, there are always two sides to any story. Eyore presenting their side, and likely the perspective of many here. And of course the team having their side which, as you mention, it is important to remember that not much can be said from that side.

These situations are difficult and messy without a doubt. What I'm thankful for, is that this channel and community is no stranger to having mutually respectful discussions from various perspectives.

[radiant sun]

My message just got deleted for no reason?

I never mentioned the person by name nor said anything harmful.

Stuff like this doesn't help morale at all, just saying.

[warm grove]

This is honestly the kind of thing that makes people feel uncomfortable and not safe to say anything in a server, unfortunately.

[radiant sun]

And I can't even go to modmail to get more information because it's only going to be seen by the same people doing this stuff.

Honestly, even if they somehow address accessibility, this all has left a bad taste in mouth

[warm grove]

Understandable. This kind of stuff doesn't feel great. Doesn't make the space or server (which, ends up also leading towards "community" for the game as well.) feel unsafe. And as if you have to be positive 24/7, which ... isn't healthy.

I do want to note:: It is also understandable if you (general you) dont' want names, and this and that to be said. That is completely fair. I haven't seen anybody (unless it's been deleted/removed/edited) mention any names. It moreso seemed like people were discussing concerns to me.

[silk mountain]

Honestly, I think that's part of the problem--the fact that some actions aren't public. Obviously we can't (and shouldn't) know every single mod action that gets taken, but from what I understand about this particular event is that it was rather public. When those things get handled, they should be handled publicly--that's part of what it takes to hold people accountable. (And by handled I mean the actions taken and resolution should at least be addressed publicly.)

When things are only ever handled behind closed doors, it continues to breed mistrust among the community because we can never know what's actually going on.

To be clear, I'm not saying we are owed anything or that every detail should be shared or anything like that. But to foster a sense of trust with your community, it's important that there's a level of transparency from the top, and we repeatedly are denied that by S6. As time goes on and that continues to be the track record, it's no wonder many of us are so disenfranchised.

Granted, I was moving across the country when this happened, so I'm only working off of what's been shared here and there, so if I'm dead wrong, please feel free to correct me 😅

[old vector]

there's certainly a lack of transparency that leads to gaslighting, darvo, and the like

[old vector]

the random deleting of messages just proves mine and your point tbf, like we as the plebs here cant ever figure out what's going on, only those in power can.

[radiant sun]

The fact that I didn't even say their name and it got deleted speaks volumes

[quartz maple]

that event in question needs to be brought up more. if stuff keeps getting randomly deleted and such, i lose more and more trust in the mods and some of the shepps here to where i will never have trust again.

whats the point if we cant even speak normally when our messages get deleted just for talking for the sake of "keeping the peace" and us just venting to one another

[old vector]

right, at some point it just becomes yall not wanting us to share information amongst ourselves

[quartz maple]

and with how shady things are in this discord in general, i feel like encouraging people to speak up more and stop trying to walk on eggshells. im tired of it

[radiant sun]

Would you be open to sending the info you have in DMs? Just in case something happens so the information is in more hands

[old vector]

absolutely

[elder veldt]

Sorry ahead of time for the text-wall but I know how delicate the matter is and don't want to step on toes, while also speaking to it.

I think what we're witnessing, at least from our (my, hello DID) perspective, is that the issue of accessibility has very much boiled over out of the pot it was originally in. That is, issues of accessibility in a videogame. We're fixed on specific incidents and specific people now because of a string of issues that have happened these past months, as I've taken note to try and catch up on things.

And while those problems were absolutely, 100% agreeably egregious and completely unacceptable (because they were, evidently, actioned upon by the team), we also have to remember that none of us are new to the fact that this work was never easy. Things have never just been handed out to us out of grace or a natural understanding of what it's like to have a disability. This is no different - there are people involved in this process who are people. And people make mistakes. That's part of the process of trying to bring two sides together that misunderstand each other.

If we don't have any faith, any trust, or any good will at all for the system we want to see improve, then it's already over. We might as well pack our bags and go home. I don't want to ask people to "keep having hope", but I do hope we still have some belief that things can be made better.

[past gate]

I have a feeling the reason the messages were moderated is because this is an accessibility chat. Now I’m not allowed to ask anyone to please move the discussion elsewhere, because then I’ll just be called a minimod. But I think it really detracts from the purpose of the channel to dredge up months old moderation actions here and stoke flames of conspiracy.

[radiant sun]

Yeah, that's fair, but if that were the case usually they're open about the fact they deleted the messages for that reason - at least in past experience. And this is the only place to talk about it since the discord-server-thoughts channel is closed.

[quartz maple]

i honestly dont wanna be quiet about it because stuff like that is important to keep in the public eye cause its really serious stuff and at this point we might as well because ablesist can walk freely in here and talk nonsense and we have to fight them off, but nothing is done about them at all.

[elder veldt]

I think the idea that "things have become personal" may be applied here as well. Which really won't help move things forward, on either side.

Edit: And. I think it's important to acknowledge that it's natural for these things to get personal because it's a personal subject. But engaging in that ends discussion, it doesn't facilitate it.

[quartz maple]

either the abelist that end up here actually get punished or things keep going the way they are right now. its not hard to punish those people at all

[warm grove]

And if that is the case, they should say something. They do this not just here, but in other channels (whether that's deleting, or not even mentioning why something was deleted or moderated 100%). This also ended up with people getting frustrated and venting out for a moment, since there is no other channel that has felt safe for us to talk to amongst ourselves. Yes, this is accessibility as the main and primary focus.

We realize this. However, the amount of times where people have gone to other channels to talk about this or that, have felt talked down to? Whether that's from the community or feeling infantilized because of how things get handled. Or it doesn't even seem like things get handled at all.

People go off topic in other channels more often than not. And topics can easily diverge/stem into others quite easily. It wasn't even something that people were going to talk about a lot of it here, from my understanding. It genuinely was people bringing up concerns, which, yes, it did stem from accessibility. And this channel feels safe to some of us here, so feels more comfortable to try to speak with one another, instead of somewhere else.

[old vector]

i would screenshot stuff as you say it if im so honest rn

[quartz maple]

fr. im just tired of being talked down to or reprimanded for no reason, or even just defending myself. its something that shouldnt even be happening and i shouldnt be punished for it period. if the mods actually did their job by watching whats going on when hate is thrown around, instead of relying on just modmail, things wouldnt be as bad as they are rn

like how hard is it to see someone being abelist and not even remotely punish them in the slightest??

[radiant sun]

Unfortuntely its not uncommon for folks who've never been in here to come in and talk over the folks that have been here

[quartz maple]

exactly. we've been dealing with this stuff since it started and we KNOW how it goes

[warm grove]

And if anybody is wondering how that could stem from "accessibility" ... well, because of concerns on how things are being handled on that front. Which easily can go to, "oh hey, I don't think this is being handled very well either."

[past gate]

Just an FYI: I was here a lot before the switch release discussing the controller and work arounds to try and make it usable. Branding me someone just here to police you is an example of assumptions before proof.

[old vector]

seriously like ok if u care ab accessibility come on cool welcome but if ur just here to police what i say and randomly delete my messages without saying a thing about it and admonish me for no reason please leave

[elder veldt]

I hope everyone here knows that if I ever step out of bounds and talk over others or misrepresent what anyone is trying to say, I'm super receptive to criticism and caution, so you can just tell us (me) to do better!

[old vector]

you were here a lot BEFORE the switch release. you're here now to defend your friend. not to talk about acceessibility. there's a difference and i wont be gaslit lol

[past gate]

You're assuming my motives. I could say the same thing about you being here to talk dirt about my friend and not accessibility. Couldn't I?

[warm grove]

Just replying to this because either, I somehow thought I saw messages before, but... they aren't there now. I was going to properly look through them after I typed, but... well.

[elder veldt]

Escalating. Things don't have to escalate, everyone.

[old vector]

no, because i'm ALWAYS in here talking about accessibility and whatever the topic is. i didn't even bring him up, someone else did

[radiant sun]

Point is, it's noticed if you're only ever here to talk over people or whatever

[old vector]

i also didnt say anything ab u saying my pov was biased. it certainly is. i tried to just talk ab the facts but OF COURSE IT IS BCOS WE'RE ALL UNRELIABLE NARRORATORS! obviously.

[elder veldt]

These talks are really hard to have without it being made personal since it personally affects everyone involved, and not everyone in the world has had the experience to approach things from a mediatory / reconciliatory in nature.

One thing sets off one person and they respond, then the other responds, and it never ends.

On a different note, we've (I've) been trying to get back into understanding what the new accessibility issues are as of late. Could you all help clue us in on what those issues are? Haven't played the game in a month or two.

[past gate]

Sorry about the mess, Marceline. I hope you and Melodic's survey goes amazingly, as I said earlier. I do hope the gossip stops so you can get back to the more pressing matter of S6's lack of accessibility options.

[old vector]

i still cant stand the idea of logging in due to fishing and watering being such nightmares for me, also the temple looks horrible, personally.

[quartz maple]

its ridiculously hard to not be biased in this discord when we've been failed by moderation multiple times. idk when a mod actually got someone banned who actually deserved it instead of it being some sort of lighthearted mistake but it was never reversed.

as for rn, the FOV being bugged is a major accessability issue for me cause i cant focus a thing with how its like a fish eye, and nothing fixes it at all no matter what. watering is an issue too, and i wish only SOME of the tools had durability and the others were just fine. why would a belt and watering can need durability? unless it was old and rusting, it shouldnt be getting damaged at all. the lighting is also still a massive issue too

[old vector]

im going to punch something by the way just so everyone's aware. no reason.

[eternal skiff]

messages that were off topic and even discriminatory never got deleted. This started recently, after a mod intervened to tone police us when we weren't even "heated".

There's no "stoking flames of conspiracy" happening by bringing up how your moderation team keeps manipulating the spaces we have for discussions.

Your team is not trustworthy and that's on you. You're failing your disabled playerbase and the only times you ever come talk to us is to deflect or tone police anymore.

[elder veldt]

Thank you for the apology, I hope everyone here can take that as a general apology and understand that we're all human. Mods having a title or you having an icon next to your name doesn't make you a flawless human being. Just like the people here aren't flawless either. None of us are.

[elder veldt]

What are the issues of fishing and watering for you rn?

[quartz maple]

the markets are also painfully inaccessable in general cause i hate the 2nd currency system and how hard it is to get said currency. why cant we just, get it from doing stuff around the game like harvesting crops n such? why do i need to force myself to play a game i dont like to get an event currency i have to get massive amounts of just to buy one thing??

[past gate]

Not sure if this is clear or not, Marceline, but I'm not a moderator. I'm a shepp. I don't have any power to moderate the chat. I use modmail like anyone else.

[warm grove]

For me at least, the main issue has always been the fact it's a "press to hold", rather than something that is toggleable. Since you can't toggle it, it ends up hurting my hands/fingers tremendously and inflaming them (which ends up resulting in my arms/shoulders inflamed).

[old vector]

the holding down the click button instead of toggleing hurts my joints a lot 😦

[elder veldt]

Yep, that's clear. That's what was meant by the fancy little icon. Thank you for the clarification though, just in case I did need it

[quartz maple]

with how a shepp that openly harrassed someone is still a shepp and in the discord is around, im very on the fence about the shepp official definition now

any yeah idk why its not just a single click and you gotta hold the mouse down. same with tilling and everything else tbh. the most basic game mechanics are inaccessable for some

[radiant sun]

Although it likely won't do anything, I will be getting in touch through modmail tomorrow when the brain is braining better to go over all of this. I encourage anyone else to do the same if they have the spoons ❤️

[eternal skiff]

No you could not, because eyore never named anyone. They weren't targeting your friend. But you, someone who's been given the Shepp status, come in and only actively participate to, in fact, defend your friend.

And having brought up the issues of controller before does not make you untouchable or unquestionable. Again, the bar is on the floor. Calling out lack of accessibility is not some kind of incredible feat. It's basic decency.

[eternal skiff]

Yes, I was that someone, and I was concerned about this Discord's history because it matters in how we can federate efforts and resources in order to make things better.

The fact that there are taboos at all is a huge red flag.

[elder veldt]

I can't with the anxiously waiting 40 seconds to reply to so many different people so I'll do this:

the markets are also painfully inaccessable in general cause i hate the 2nd currency system and how hard it is to get said currency.

What are the difficulties with the current way of getting said currency? How does it affect you? @quartz maple

Since you can't toggle it, it ends up hurting my hands/fingers tremendously and inflaming them (which ends up resulting in my arms/shoulders inflamed).
@warm grove This is really, really good insight. Did you add it to the survey?

the holding down the click button instead of toggleing hurts my joints a lot
@old vector Same as above, I'm sorry it's literally hurting both you and Valk :c

[past gate]

Y'all want to continue arguing with me, I have DMs. No promises. But I have no intention of continuing this discussion when I've already made my point.

[old vector]

i did add it to the service!! i think!!! sometimes its so bad i wanna cry when i play palia something makes me so sad 😭

[eternal skiff]

I'm not a fan of gossip myself but your behaviour is just insulting and dismissive. You're trying to set up an "us vs them" mentality that is not welcome here.

[warm grove]

I did, yes. I tried to put as much info as i could (and could remember, because dissocation/memory related problems) in regards to it.

It's one of the few reasons I stopped playing Palia, because it was just affecting me this much.

[eternal skiff]

Good, your intervention wasn't pertinent to begin with anyway, thanks you for the baseless accusations and needless vitriol ig

Acting as if there are parts of the history of this community that should be kept quiet is REALLY not a good look, especially when none of our concerns have been addressed publically yet.

[quartz maple]

i just cant understand the hotpot game, and its the only way of reliably getting a large amount of the currency and there isnt any other way, except to spend lucky coins and to do that you need to buy things to get them via RNG and even then, RNG is just garbage

[warm jungle]

Oh boy I'm getting some hella deja-vu scrolling up. I knew I recognized some names, lmao.

[elder veldt]

You've got a point Bruje, but in all fairness, we're right now contributing to the us vs. them mentality ourselves, too. Nobody here wants to, or is trying to, but it's what we're showing them by consistently rehashing the same problems which the other side has stated they've dealt with. Again, things can only move forward if we have a slither of faith that they are trying even if there are clearly issues there.

But again. This is so far out of the scope and realm of what we Can work on here: which is talk about accessibility in a video game. The people here aren't strangers to having to be the bigger person and taking insults to the face, moving on, and talking about what we as a community can action on.

Added: this is an unfortunate and really painful reality of being part of a marginalized community within our own marginalized identities. Things get messy, but we have to keep on track.

[pastel mica]

You get significantly more tickets if you play with other players vs against NPCs.

If you get 2 different color sets of 3 cards and 1 color set of 2 cards you can get a decent score. (So like 111 222 33 )

[quartz maple]

i dont really like playing with other players, esp with how toxic some can be. id rather just solo if possible and an option to be added with solo players in mind would be great

[pastel mica]

It'll automatically start a solo game if you go to a table and no one else joins before the start timer runs out. But there's no way to force it to unfortunately.

[elder veldt]

i did add it to the service!! i think!!! sometimes its so bad i wanna cry when i play palia something makes me so sad
@old vector I'm really glad the survey enabled you to talk about that specific issue then! There'll be future efforts to get stories like yours and others' here to the table.

It's one of the few reasons I stopped playing Palia, because it was just affecting me this much.
You are not at all the first, or fifth, or tenth person to tell me this. So, know you're not alone @warm grove

i just cant understand the hotpot game, and its the only way of reliably getting a large amount of the currency and there isnt any other way, except to spend lucky coins and to do that you need to buy things to get them via RNG and even then, RNG is just garbage
So then the issue is that it's all luck-based, which sounds innocent and cute at first, but you're put in a disadvantage because relying on repeated attempts at RNG literally hurts you as a person with a disability, yes? @quartz maple

[fallow dirge]

Have they explained their reasoning for not having a minimap in the game? or at least an unlockable map for areas like temples? I'm pretty much locked in the wind temple because I can't retrace my steps well enough to be able to know where I haven't been yet, and this feels like a really basic necessity for an open world game

[pastel mica]

I'm not sure if they've replied specifically to that inquiry before. I know it's something I've mentioned on every feedback survey I filled out.

[past gate]

There was some indication early in development that they wanted people to take in the world around them and not stare at a minimap. I've brought this up several times, including during alpha, but it seems to be a sticking point of their design.

[quartz maple]

yeah. rng in general can be tricky but in some games its fine. palia doesnt seem to have stable rng it feels like, let alone a based in pity system

and thats a really stupid hill to die on. minimaps HELP in navigating and taking in the world because it helps you see where your going

[fallow dirge]

That sucks cause it legit makes this game impossible to advance in. The day it dropped, I spent several hours running/flying in circles and making 0 progress.

[quartz maple]

i swear s6 chooses the dumbest hills to stay on and act like its good game design

[radiant sun]

Unfortunately that's the case for a lot of features they refuse to add :/ like player-trading

[pastel mica]

I know there are fair few video guides on Youtube if it might help.

[fallow dirge]

Like, i get that they want to flex their skills because a lot of them are already previously established industry professionals & I respect that to an extent, but they're a business and they have to appeal to their customers and by not doing that, they're basically saying they don't care about us or our feedback 💀

[eternal skiff]

See, I agree with you, thing is, I'm merely acknowledging that the studio and their employees and volunteers have othered us in such a way we are subpar compared to the rest of their playerbase. Even on the Discord, I only ever see disabled people getting an unfair treatment that bad, and I'm not including myself in that observation.

I still do have faith. But I don't believe in the studio acting in good faith in return, not anymore.

Edit: about ''rehashing the same problem'' I have to add smth. It is perfectly normal for that to happen since things don't get addressed. In a community where the rule of silence is golden and where we are treated like children it is not abnormal that people keep bringing back the same old issues when there are no advancements, no updates on these issues.

And since the modding approach for the last six months of open beta I've been for has always acted in such a way, it's dealing with the logical consequence now. Nurturing a culture of taboo and "i don't see i don't speak i don't hear" just does that. It's been studied, and the characters' lore even proves that at least SOMEONE in S6 has to know that.

The irony is nearly touchable at this point.

[fallow dirge]

Yeah I might take a look. but I hate that I have to do that, not because it's respectably difficult but because it's genuinely impossible to navigate. I think even someone with "average" short term memory capacity could struggle with it

[pastel mica]

I got turned around so many times in the Gales temple. And I had to stop a few times because of motion sickness which didn't help...and I don't normally get motion sick. x_x;

[fallow dirge]

like if I have to resort to guides to advance in a game that I can reasonably play otherwise... I don't wanna play and that shouldn't be

[elder veldt]

@fallow dirge Unfortunately as far as I know there hasn't been a direct response to that concern, but if you haven't already, you should check this out: #♿│accessibility-discussions message (link to a message regarding a crowdsourced survey created by members of this community)

The survey allows you to speak about your specific issues about anything and everything accessibility related.

yeah. rng in general can be tricky but in some games its fine. palia doesnt seem to have stable rng it feels like, let alone a based in pity system
Heard. @quartz maple I'll keep a mental note of this for now because I think it depicts a really strong case of "just because you didn't intend to leave us out, doesn't mean you didn't".

[fallow dirge]

omg same i only get motion sickness in cars usually, but when i walked away from the PC, I was super dizzy after. The effects are excessive. I get wanting a look, but it's not necessary at all, we understand it's in the sky and all that, all the weird blur and like... vibrating (?) that things off in the distance do is jarring

[quartz maple]

mhm. and sometimes i just forget what im doing here and there so thats another thing thats needed is like a check list fo sorts

[radiant sun]

Yeah unforuntately the response to a lot of good features is usually "we like it this way so no"

[pastel mica]

I would be careful if you every go to try the optional Tower obstacle course in the Underground. It has similar effects going on, though the sky in it it is darker so maybe they won't be quite as bad.

[fallow dirge]

That's crazy. I just completed a degree in game design & if that was my genuine response to feedback from players, I'd fail that assignment

I can imagine a specific teacher's face in my head too 💀 he's big on accessibility & inclusion

[pastel mica]

Yeah you definitely have to balance what kind of look you are going for with what is accessible and actually works.

[elder veldt]

What would you, and/or your teacher do differently? How were you taught in your program to approach issues of accessibility as a game designer?

[fallow dirge]

That teacher always required justification for any technical/gameplay decision we made in development - if we added something to a game mechanically, the reasoning of "well this is typical of this genre" wasn't ever an acceptable answer. But excluding it for the sake of wanting to be unique with no actual technical justification would also not have been acceptable. He would require us to take feedback, and either implement it if we reasonably could and had the skillset to, or find a compromise that could strike a happy medium. The happy medium with the map issue, for example would be making it a slowly unlockable map, where it's basically blank until you explore the area and map it yourself. In an adventure game that just seems logical, story-wise and technically. But having no map available in an area that's basically like 1/4-1/2 of the size of the main areas and relying on memory in a game that doesn't require you to do so otherwise makes 0 sense in any vein

[pastel mica]

That would be a good compromise for the temple maps - lighting up as you explore I mean.

[fallow dirge]

And on top of that, there's all the other puzzles (which, admittedly are not terribly hard for me, but not necessarily all 100% straightforward either, maybe 99% at easiest) but to also make it a navigation nightmare, multiple levels & mechanics going on... god

[eternal skiff]

And it's not accessible to ppl like me who have mnesic issues.

... I just realized that. I'm just used to feeling stupid ig.

[fallow dirge]

I have working memory issues caused by a decade with depression & anxiety. I totally sympathize and I am so sorry

[radiant sun]

For me, personally, the biggest accessibility issue that impacts the most of the gameplay has always been the lack of trading. Due to the way they've decided to design the bundle system it's impossible for Disabled players to complete if they have issue with the skills (mainly cooking and fishing) required to complete them. Unfortunately it seems unlikely, based on their response in the infamous Reddit AMA, to ever change.

[elder veldt]

This is a seriously helpful perspective. Have you filled out the survey? It'd be good to capture this in there as a suggestion as part of your answer(s) to the testimonial question.

Definitely stick around though because we'll need experience like that to offer up systematic solutions to these problems.

[pastel mica]

Hint buttons would go a long way with some of the puzzles for those who have difficulties. With the option of a solution button after a point if folks wanted it.

[silk mountain]

Even Islands of Insight, a puzzle game that just came out, has ways to help you solve the puzzles built into the game, even though that's the whole point of the game.

[pastel mica]

There's no reason not to have them. It's just roadblocking folks out of story.

[eternal skiff]

I appreciate this trading system as much as I hate it tbh.

Cus I think it's cool that we can't just ''carry'' someone and ruin the fun of the game for them.

But at the same time, there should be a way to help those who cannot get the stuff they need.

A compromise could be allowing ppl to request items they never got, but a limited amount of times per day/week?

[fallow dirge]

I'll try to do it soon. I'm still pretty fresh out of uni, but I took the theory of game design really seriously, and focused mostly writing & narrative and diversity, inclusion & accessibility. I chose to ruin my experience of playing games because i overanalyze tf out of them so I could get in & help the game industry be better, and ofc I graduated at a time where everyone's getting laid off so finding an entry level job is impossible rn

[pastel mica]

I did see a suggestion at one point for like a community donation bin of sorts. Like folks could put in mats /food / w/e they don't need and take something out as exchange.

[past gate]

I've always been of the mind that the requests should have an "amount" value selected by the one requesting it. Right now you either get way too little or more than you want.

[radiant sun]

Yeah, I never found their reason for the lack of a trading system to make sense (their excuse was it would harm the game economy). If they set the items to have a predetermined price then any issues would be eliminated.

[fallow dirge]

I think the other issue is a lot of ppl who have been in the industry for awhile don't have respect for current education standards regarding game design. But then they don't give input on what they think should be different, so those of us coming out of college have 0 "practical" experience compared to them and a lot of the theory, but we are able to problem solve a lot better than just relying on feedback - we can anticipate it before it even comes sometimes because of the way we were taught.

[pastel mica]

There's no economy to balance so S6 can afford to be more creative with solutions in this case.

[old vector]

i'm BACK hi i had to do other stuff how is everyone also yes i think requests are a mess speaking of does anyone rmbr that way too louuuuuuuuuddddd ping they had for that one patch for like a day or smth when someone requested smth

[pastel mica]

Cause if someone wants to race to gold cap for their fun that's cool. It doesn't hurt anyone else.

[fallow dirge]

If there's no trading there's no economy to balance what the heck. and they can just put restrictions if they want. i do not understand LOL

[radiant sun]

I think, personally, a lot of it isn't economy issues or whatever but more-so that due to the lack of content in the game they've made a lot of things harder than they need to be to increase playtime metrics

[warm grove]

Oh gosh, yes. It gave me such bad headaches. I had to just mute my game entirely or just not play.

They also had that during the first Maji Market, too. (That one was a bug, though.)

[eternal skiff]

That's highly possible, even if the game's healthy to encourage leisure imo.... It's too much at that point. I do believe there's an economy in game but it's barebone and you're all right, it doesn't need those drastic measures to be kept afloat

[elder veldt]

Oh my gosh there's no rush or pressure to get into it at all. Whenever you have time really. I just wanted you to know your opinions are so valuable. Everyone's is, of course. One from a literal student of game dev though is

Just reminds everyone in the room that it can and is being done.

[pastel mica]

I do hope the change in their patch schedule means we'll get more significant bug fixes and improvements each time but we'll see by the end of Feb I believe?

[old vector]

this ... this is what kills my hands. at a certain point the progress and dopamine you get just doesnt correspond to the amount of flow trees i have to hunt, palium, etc.

like i effectively stopped playing when subria got introduced bc of those furniture items. not worth it sorry subria <//3

[radiant sun]

Yeah I haven't played since the first maji market ended because all I had to do was the RNG fishing for bundle completion which is impossible for me due to the inaccessibility of fishing.

[eternal skiff]

Yeah, like, I understant that so many people are frustrated, so am I and I've been for a long time, but I still believe our efforts are worth smth. Any kind of data collection on accessibility in video games is already a big deal since this intersection of topics is so niche already.

[static wolf]

If the end of the market date is any indication, we'll see by Monday

[pastel mica]

I wish I could help others with the furniture situation for stuff like Subira's quest or if people just wanted anything even. I usually have tons of mats and I intend to make everything to unlock it all anyway.

[old vector]

to lower expectations... froggie asked the CMs this when the steam launch was announced, and both of them said "things are being worked on but nothing to announce in the near future" ... i may have gotten angry at that

[eternal skiff]

Tbh if you wanna try it again I'll gladly give resources I got, because on my end I've accumulated a vunch of stuff just playing and gathering for the sake of it alone.

Guess it's doing smth for the monkee brain lmao

[radiant sun]

Yeah it was basically the same non-answer we've been getting this whole time lol

[old vector]

does anyone have that doomer meme 🚬😪

[pastel mica]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that's been the case for longer than just open beta as well tbh.

[past gate]

It's unfortunate that the CMs are restricted on what they can say with specificity. Either they give a non-answer or make a promise they might not be able to keep.

[fallow dirge]

That sucks but that's unfortunately the reality of business. They don't dip their hands in development typically and therefore they're not allowed to make comments like that, cause they're not always kept in the loop. CMs sometimes are underappreciated & underutilized

[eternal skiff]

Yeah. I hate liberal management. It gets us nowhere.

[old vector]

thats very sweet but then u could only give me like 3 things at a time and im kind of burnt out on the rest of it too. i rly liked the mahjong game though, like a lot a lot.

[past gate]

Hotpot for home plot when?

[old vector]

finaallyyy something we can agree on! (i hope u take this in the spirit it was intended 😭💗)

[old vector]

(slight spoilers) i pushed thru finishing all the bundles ||and then was so frustrated at the rewards. not at all worth it||

[radiant sun]

haha yeah the only thing that really interested me was the furniture as someone who likes to decorate

[warm grove]

Decorating!! <3 my beloved.

I will always be proud of the little cafe that i made for myself on my plot.

[elder veldt]

Love to see it. This community is capable of so, so much. We'll get there, all in due time.

Our (my) DMs are open by the way if people want to vent and rage or share their experience about any issues outside of the realm of accessibility / disability. We sincerely welcome every single person here to treat us like your own personal, pocket mediation lawyer. And hopefully we can all work together towards getting the work done to bring each and every one of our stories to the table.

[fallow dirge]

I wrote a whole novel in that survey

[elder veldt]

And let me tell you I cannot wait to read your novel

In all seriousness though, thank you, sincerely. For taking all that time and effort to share your story. I know this doesn't come easily. Talking about this stuff is painful and exhausting. So for you to take the time and energy isn't something to just haphazardly dismiss. Thank you. I hope the survey didn't make you feel too detached or alienated - as surveys often do.

[old vector]

i wanna be you when i grow up

[elder veldt]

pls everything you think you see in us is already in you!! it's in everyone. just in different ways, is all.

[fallow dirge]

thank you for making the survey cause otherwise it wouldnt have been easy to share it at all

[elder veldt]

I'll be sure to pass that along to Melodic, Mavebrick, and Admiral! Team effort, after all. Though I'm sure they'll see that anyway since they always lurking around here if not actively participating in convo. Your support of our support is a very lovely little snowball of support

[fair willow]

For me, HotPot is an anxiety thing. I only login to Palia for 30-60 mins or so each day and that's mostly to tend to my garden. IF I magically login when the Market is running I might get in one game of HotPot, and it is taking me some time to learn it. I get the concept, but the fiddly controls, weird color combos and graphics, and the timer all make it a lot to process. (Like what even IS that weird color change that happens mid-game?) When you have people actively complaining about people "using up the timer" and not making "optimal" matches... It makes people like me not want to touch it. I literally find a table alone, and pray no one else joins. Inevitably, someone usually does and I either start crying or I get upset and leave. Because I feel anxious about "wasting other people's time" and "not giving them enough points with my poor matching process". This may not even be the reality for the person joining, but it's the way my anxious brain works. PLUS I have arthritis and neuropathy, so getting the right keystrokes and clicks isn't always easy or speedy for me. I probably sound stupid, but it's my reality. I can't get the things I would like to have from the market, because I cannot make the currency necessary. I got a few things thanks to the Twitch drops, and I am thankful for that.

[eternal skiff]

Aaaaaaa I'm so sorry!!! I'd love to play Hotpot with you if you wanna play with no pressure (i just follow arbitrary recipes that make no strategical sense for fun sometimes, to give u an idea of how seriously i take this game) and pls know you're not wasting anybody's time! Screw people who want to optimize at the expense of others, this isn't some corpo workplace, we're not playing for that at the core of this game or games in general.

And I'm so glad I'm not the only one that found the controls for that minigame fiddly!!! I need to stop gaslighting myself lmao, thanks you for bringing this up and making me reevaluate.

Now the initial anxiety topic you broached reminds me I wanted to ask, anybody that wanna make a Sunflower community? Like, to help each others in tasks with understanding and stuff.

[wispy iron]

I forgot to add pressure on finger joints to the survey 🤦🏼‍♀️ any chance we can go in and add stuff? 🤣

[wispy iron]

I agree with this!

Being able to only play for a little while at a time, makes it impossible to achieve the bundles. And for me it's only the fishing that makes it impossible, cause I can't spend ours fishing! I get dizzy and sick after about 30minutes, but constant fishing kills my finger joints in half the time 🤷🏼‍♀️

[green kelp]

Imagine believing the arbitrary moderation and how the Discord and Shepp program is ran isn't pertinent to the accessibility discussion. But you're seen with your .

[fair willow]

The fishing RNG feels pretty bad to me, but it could just be my awful luck. I can only fish for about 20 minutes before my hands/wrists start to give me trouble. (Pain and/or numbness, depending on the day.) I wanted a Prism Trout. An uncommon fish. I caught SEVEN rare Shimmerfin fish, many common fish, and never got an uncommon fish. Even when fishing in the appropriate place with the correct bait at the appropriate time. I had to go back multiple times to get ONE Prism Trout because of my limitations. That is frustrating. (And this was when requests were broken, so I couldn't even ask for one because it only showed me what I had caught in that session.)

[radiant sun]

Yeah, the fishing RNG is a bit wack. They should make it so once you've caught a certain fish the chances of catching it in the loottable go down.

[hoary heron]

I have fishing RNG challenges in other games too--but some of that is mitigated from additional abilities you're given in the game as well as different baits (of we have what, two?). E.g. there's an ability called "Surface Slap" that you can use right after catching an unwanted fish and for a period of time, that type of fish will stay away.

I heartily recommend trying a controller for fishing for anyone who struggles with Mouse & Keyboard as far as things like running around and fishing controls go (it is generally not better at present for hunting or bug catching); however, I also recognize that not everyone has means/access to a controller. It doesn't do anything for my RNG, but the motions involved are easier on my hands than using M&K.

[hoary heron]

The problem I see with that approach is that you might need multiple of the same fish, and I'd get frustrated that a fish I successfully caught once effectively became more difficult to catch.

[radiant sun]

Yeah I can see that, that's just the only way they could really make the RNG not suck lol

[hoary heron]

This is pure speculation, but I think they're trying to keep fishing "simple" with only two (I suppose 3 if you count empty-hook) bait options, time of day, and location as the main factors on what fish tables you're pulling from, and that puts too much weight on RNG. Maybe there aren't enough distinct nodes to make the fish tables for each location smaller. Short of just entirely reworking the RNG tables, I think adding in some options of what we can do prior to casting a line to attract certain fish and/or repel certain fish in a node would be helpful--though the means of getting those abilities/tools would need to be made available in an accessible fashion.

[whole trail]

I wonder if alternatives to the fisherman’s brew would be doable. Idr all of the ingredients for it, but since it’s a campfire recipe there’s no headache of actual cooking for it and it could just be the base recipe + a fish rarity of what you want to repel/attract for a specific time (so base brew ingredients + one uncommon fish for attracting uncommon fish for x-amount of time).

[hoary heron]

Oooh--I definitely like the idea of keeping it a campfire thing so the accessibility limitations of cooking don't come into play! I think this kind of feature could also be something that helps those that perhaps don't have a disability impacting their ability to fish, but have other limitations on playtime (which are also often shared by disabled players) in the form of things like family/caregiving, work, school, etc. I'm sure there's a way it can be built to be reasonable, accessible, and make the time we spend fishing for specific fish/fish-types feel more meaningful.

It would be another way that shows accessibility can have a positive impact on disabled and abled folks experiences. I'll always come back to the example of the accessible doors with the metal button--sure, they're designed so that a disabled person can go through doors without having to wait on someone else to open it and hold it for them.

But it also benefits:

• parents walking hand-in-hand with two children
• people walking in carrying heavy things
• people walking in with a beverage in hand
• people pushing carts
• and more

[desert inlet]

That would be nice. It's difficult when you're trying to do bundles or achievements and don't have literal irl days for 1 single fish.

Then add in flare up days and whatnot and it's just game over

[pastel mica]

This was specific to ye olde Gaia Online's fishing mini game. But they also had a fish exchange to help mitigate poor luck and help with accessibility since you could exchange certain amounts of different fish for avatar items.

But you could exchange say 10 little fish for 1 of a rarer fish, etc. And eventually earn your way up to to the rarest fish even if you weren't able to catch them in game.

[hoary heron]

Oh! That's a cool idea too! FFXIV does a similar thing with the fancy mounts that drop from extreme trials--if your RNG is bad, you still walk away with a token for your attempts, and if your RNG luck is really bad, you can still get the mount through an exchange NPC that takes a certain amount of those tokens representing your attempts, and hands you the mount.

[pastel mica]

Those tokens have saved my butt so many times on getting mounts. ~~99 Thordan EX back in the day 🙃 ~~

[hoary heron]

I think an Einar's Fish Exchange could be really fun!

[silk mountain]

Having done similar in WoW where I've gone thousands of attempts without a drop, I much prefer the FFXIV way 😂

But bad luck protection and/or helping with RNG is always a plus

[pastel mica]

Yeah I've dealt with the WoW terrible RNG for many years too and I was so relieved when XIV did something different.

[silk mountain]

Same! I was like "Max 99 attempts? That's nothing!" 😂

[pastel mica]

So many years of weekly Karazhan for that dang horse.

And the exchange could unlock the stuff like the Ancient Fish once you finish the bundle.

[hoary heron]

And like it's not actually nothing; it's still a considerable investment of your time, but compared to how many runs based on RNG alone it could take? Definitely perspective improver.

[silk mountain]

Oh yeah absolutely. I definitely meant more like nothing compared to the time investment I was used to at the time lol

[pastel mica]

I wouldn't mind having a starred exchange as well to exchange enough non starred fish to get a starred one for your house or gifting.

[silk mountain]

Love this! I'd love to see this be true across the board tbh

[pastel mica]

Yeah there's a bunch of starred bugs I'd like to have too that I've never gotten but I've gotten loads of normal ones.

[hoary heron]

With how difficult the controls are at times for bug catching, especially the ones needed for bundles, and even more especially when they get stuck in rocks/walls/etc...Auni's Bug Exchange would be neat too. I'll bet there's a balanced way it could be designed.

[whole trail]

I’ve been grinding starred star stones and my rng has been so bad with it. I’ve thought that it would be nice to be able to turn X of a regular quality for a starred one. This could def apply to any starred item - the rng gets particularly disheartening when you want starred items for fun, decor reasons.

And once requests are a bit more streamlined, it would be easier for community members to help each other get starred quality items by gifting extra regular quality items to one another

[pastel mica]

Yeah definitely starstones as well. I actually forgot that they added the starred ones to the game. 😮

[pastel mica]

Over 250 bug fixes in this the next patch apparently. Wonder if the notes will have them all listed this time. ^^;;;

No mention of accessibility though.
https://twitter.com/playPalia/status/1761128085435658696

[raw hull]

Hopefully the fix the server invite bug. If I send one to my boyfriend he never gets it. Sometimes I get his. Mostly it's the spinning g wheel of death. Only sometimes does the party invite work. Mostly when I accept, its says I declined....like whaaat?

Beautiful game despite the bugs I LOVE LOVE LOVE IT

[pastel mica]

Yeah it probably just never actually shows up on his end and the server thinks it eventually times out. 😦

[hoary heron]

Y'all--this is awesome; we're already at nearly 60 completed surveys!

[pastel mica]

Heck yeah! I'd be curious to see the data once it's all coalited. (sp?)

[hoary heron]

I'm already excited about the preliminary data we've gathered--we'll leave the survey open for two weeks, and then we'll go through and seeing the stories it tells!

[radiant sun]

I ask every patch update on twitter and never get a response :/

[pastel mica]

rip. I asked about accessibility and QoL and crickets of course.

I think they just mostly schedule tweets and bail.

[static wolf]

yeah, idk that they're that active on twitter. replies very, very, very curious to see if QoL includes any accessibility related things.

one "bug" that I'm hoping to see "fixed" is the starred requests. When beta first started, you could send starred items to people through requests, but they'd downgrade to non-starred. patch .166 or .167 (ish) they said they added the capability to send starred items - but that capability was immediately "bugged", and then eventually stopped being listed in the list of top bugs. So ever since, we've not been able to send starred items at all (very frustrating when I can only harvest star quality crops at this point). I have no clue if sending starred items is one of the things they've fixed, but I would sure see that as a QoL improvement and I think it could help with accessibility (since some requests require starred versions of things). So star requests as part of this patch

[cyan flame]

QoL should also include what is considered "accessibility". But also: I'm still being on my toes on this, aka: I'll believe it when I'll see it.

[pastel mica]

I definitely agree yeah.

I worded it as QoL or accessibility in my question to hopefully avoid people on Twitter being grouchy is all.

[eternal skiff]

Hey, I managed to grab a small french Palia's attention, I'm thinking we could start raising awareness that way too now?

[quartz maple]

yeah. that'd be great! we definately need all the awareness we can get

[sand tide]

Still no mention of making it accessible for us with disabilities?

[cyan flame]

All they mentioned in the announcement has been (I quote) "some QoL (quality of life) improvements". If that includes anything related to accessibility, it's something we'll have to wait and see.

[sand tide]

Fingers crossed then I can start playing again along with many others

[nova coral]

hi im new to this im asking if anyone would like to voice chat with me

[eternal skiff]

I do NOT understand why they refuse to just freaking address it upfront. What do they think they're achieving with that?

#💬│palia-discussions message Oooooh this is super good imo, what do y'all think of this map add-ons?

[cyan flame]

Watch the devs call this one "unfair advantage"

[eternal skiff]

I don't think it'd be the devs, they don't make decisions. But if that argument comes up I'm gonna get mad for real

This competitive, macho and purist mentality of making games hard just for the sake of being "more rewarding"- but making no space for these games being playable by all- has to GO.

It has no place in game design in big 2024, and especially not in an "inclusive, chill and cozy" game

[elder veldt]

Hi! Welcome to Palia! Are you asking if there'd be anyone who could play with you or did you have any particular questions?

[elder veldt]

I'm glad this question gets routinely asked by everyone here with each update, because it's a good and important question. The fact we all end up asking this is telling of the months long journey most of us have had since the start of this open beta back in August.

I think the difficulty here is there probably needs to be a comprehensive, detailed road map towards making the game fully accessible – or at least as much as possible. Without that, there's nothing to "announce" about. In that way, I think the CMs making the posts might have their hands tied.

So, either there is no road map at present, or there isn't one that everyone is confident in enough to make a big announcement over, I think. Either way the people making the announcements are limited in both capacity and authority. Which is why we're all working so hard to get everyone's voices directly to the table, past the surface layers of community-studio communications.

[pastel mica]

Are you able to include links in steam reviews at all?

If you can I'm gonna include the community made accessibility workarounds sheet in mine so folks can find it outside the Discord if it's alright that it's shared.

[eternal skiff]

@elder veldt I've been wanting to write another feedback thru their site but I got no idea of how to start it because it's sectioned in different groups of accessibility. I'm also wondering if there are other people who have already written feedback on specific issues?

[wispy iron]

Workarounds? 😁

[static wolf]

I usually pick the one that's like "other" so I can write up a ton of things at once, or if I think it works for multiple groups

[static wolf]

it's a spreadsheet of some things people have gotten to work maintained by Melodic, featured in the pinned comment here: #♿│accessibility-discussions message

Not everything helps everyone, and they aren't solutions to many problems that require features in the game, but some of them are very helpful!

[pastel mica]

Thanks for finding that. I didn't see the ping since I was finishing up tax stuff.

[static wolf]

speaking of workarounds, this isn't necessarily a workaround, but something I've found useful. We've talked a lot in here about cooking being inaccessible- if hotpot is more accessible for you, all the foods in the maji market are 1:1 lucky envelope price to focus (so a 500 ticket item gives 500 focus). Additionally, while some items (zeki's foods and the hotpot takeouts) are bugged so you can't get star quality, the ones that can be star quality are bonus focus for the same price (at the same rate for all foods).

Since the market is going away with the patch on Tuesday (likely early AM in the US), I thought it would be good to bring that up so people have the chance to go on a spending spree with their extra tickets. The maji market is the only reason I've had a full focus bar, for the first time in months

[grim ridge]

I'm not sure what your particular access needs are, so sorry if this suggestion doesn't apply, but I've been able to pretty much replace cooking with the pickling barrel for my focus needs. the jars pile up pretty quickly

[wispy iron]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one 😅 thanks!

[eternal skiff]

I've been considering doing that but I'm afraid they'll just dismiss it then...

[eternal skiff]

also, once someone bought a food item, it's possible for them to send that food type to them right?

[static wolf]

I believe so? I don't know about maji market food specifically, but that's typically how it works

[errant gate]

So i feel like this is approprite here.... The amount of people losing their minds over me "stealing palium" is getting too much. I am colorblind and so every since mining node is 100% the same to me so until i break it and loot it i dont know what im hitting. ive had people legit blow up chat saying how awful of a person i am because im doing and and "waning" everyone to leave the server cause im a theif.

[desert inlet]

Honestly even the regular rocks look like pal to me until I'm legit on top of them. Pal respawns. It's... not a big deal for someone else to just go break some other rocks.

[elder veldt]

I always selected accessibility > other for general recommendations / suggestions across the board

[elder veldt]

I might be playing Palia again for the first time after a while tonight, would you like someone to mine Palium with so you don't have to be anxious about that? I know it's not an ideal solution, but it's all I can offer to actually be of immediate help rn I think

[twin blaze]

This isn't super accessibility helpful BUT I'm sorry you're dealing with this 😦
Both online and irl with rude/obnoxious people rn my current solution is to lean in and commit to their bit.... I think if (and when) people do this you should say that you are a thief and their stockpiled pal in their plots are next

Fully act like you're going to put on a palian ski mask or Robin hood outfit or something

[static wolf]

Frankly I block people who do "callouts" like that in chat- not sure exactly how blocking works & if it means I won't be on a server with them in the future, but there are so many accessibility (and valid non-accessibility) reasons why palium might not be called out. I'm not a fan of the notion of shaming people in chat

[fair willow]

I don't think you can in reviews, but I've seen links to external sources in the community guides section for games. (I turned off the ping, because it's late and I didn't want to be a pest. I apologize if that's annoying.)

[pastel mica]

No worries :> I'll still mention it and say it's available in the Discord here if nothing else.

[rain panther]

Don´t worry, anyone rude to you needs a report and feel free to block them. You play with your time how you want, no matter what people say. They´re the rude ones. If people can´t be kind and polite then it´s on them.

[clear raven]

Man that’s just awful, even if you weren’t color blind it’s okay to mine pal by yourself if you wanted anyway, as long as you don’t break a pal that someone called for others and the guy is still next to it i dont see any issues. We really should get an option to change the colors to help color blind peeps like you, again i’m sorry to hear that :(((

[past gate]

"You took MY precious palium!" Yeah, no. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I do hope they're considering some colorblind aids 😦 But you're not wrong for doing your thing. They need to chill out.

[eternal skiff]

That's bs omggggg it's not even that big of a deal, Palium isn't that rare! So sorry it happens to you.

[rain bough]

I'm not even colourblind and I sometimes have a hard time distinguishing it until I'm right on top of it. Tell whoever is accusing you to go kick rocks. It's not like palium is even as rare as it used to be!

[wispy iron]

Jeez! Now that palium spawns everywhere, there's not much need to go off on people! ♥️

I do however Lett my ADHD rage show when we are looting and people just come in and take the resources we are standing waiting for eachother by. Specially when we type out stop, or wait and they don't 😅

Yesterday we were helping a new player, and they had a hard time navigating, so we had to wait for them all of the time. And almost every iron node, and palium node we were waiting for him by, these two players just chopped, even tho we where standing with our mining ⛏️ tools on top of the rocks 🤦🏼‍♀️ telling them to wait 🤷🏼‍♀️
Then it could be that I maybe got a bit rude in the chat 🤣

[eternal skiff]

frankly that's different and more legitimate
ok that 1 minute cooldown rlly needs to be made smaller like seriously

[hoary heron]

I know there's been a lot of feedback submitted as well as chatter in Discord and on the Reddit about node etiquette--it's been a challenge for a long time. Hopefully we'll see some positive change on that front too--I know a lot of suggestions have been raised by the community on how it could be handled.

While not necessarily as overtly accessibility-coded as something like colorblind-filters, captions, or UI scaling, I think there is the potential for some good accessibility progress if they are able to make changes to mining nodes so it's less competitive and less anxiety-inducing.

[eternal skiff]

Frankly for once I'm not putting this on the game dev team at all. I think it should be up to the players to self regulate and formulate etiquettes among ourselves. People who get mad at others about resources "stealing" in this game are just plain immature, unless there's an incident specifically like the one Yllis just told us about.

It shouldn't be needed for the game makers to step in and weaken the game balancing when it's literally not that hard for someone to just not be rude. I understand being upset, but there are ways to communicate it without being hurtful when it comes to resources, and we literally all signed the same rules, regardless of who actually read them or not.

People who are aggressive to others, who shun and shame, all because they didn't get resources that will repop in less than a hour, are breaking the ToS and imo the best way to treat the issue is to discourage that type of behaviour ourselves by reporting and blocking.

And by reporting I don't just mean in-game, but also screenshooting and bringing it up online in fandom spaces, censoring the names but still showing the behaviour that just don't belong in a game.

Toxic gaming culture can be the game maker teams' responsibility but on that one specific aspect, I think they've already done enough.

Edit: this is my personal onion and I don't mind if others have different ones, and encourage all to share their own pov of the topic. me taking part in discussions is not me attempting to silence, I just have a strong worded writing style.

[hoary heron]

Oh I agree that bullies are a community problem, and violating the spirit of what we agreed to when we started playing. But even when there's not toxic activities, there's still a lot of frustration, and some folks just dropped Palium entirely because they don't have time to wait on it, but they don't want to make things difficult for others or be seen as greedy.

I believe there are things that can be done without damaging game balance to improve the experience and make it more accessible.

[eternal skiff]

I see; I agree ultimately, I'm just unsure of how the game balance could be improved at that point. I do lack the acute game design knowledge on that topic tho

[wispy iron]

Completely agree!

I always say sorry even for hitting a plain rock, if I see someone with a ⛏️ straight after I smash it.. it shouldn't be hard to be a little nice and compassionate about eachother in-game 😅♥️

[fickle thunder]

But you didn't in 2023, why would any rational person expect this to be true?

And this was from the update from November 2023

[fair willow]

I am one of those "dropped Palium entirely" people. I found it REALLY stressful before they made it spawn 'everywhere'. To the point my heart would race and I would feel nauseous any time I came across a palium node. This lessened to some extent when they made it an alternate chance with Iron spawns, but then I started getting mixed signals from the player base and their harassment undid whatever relief I received by the larger spawn chances. I have a similar but lesser anxiety with Flow Trees. So I just don't do those things, because it's not cozy or fun for my silly brain. I basically avoid Bahari Bay unless I have to go for a quest.

[fair willow]

I swing my camera around in a million directions because I worry I will have missed someone nearby. I do this for every resource, and between hits on resources that require multiple hits. >.<

[wispy iron]

I do that if I know that people are around, but If the chat says that noone is around, and I haven't seen anyone, I just chop 🤷🏼‍♀️😅 and if I happened to miss someone who was coming for the resource I chopped, I apologise and be on my way 🙂 if they're going my way, I just give them a chop, and wait to see if they want in :p

[rain bough]

Sometimes you just end up looking like a jerk, and it's unavoidable. I called out for two medium flow trees earlier, and nobody came. I couldn't take them by myself, but needed a single piece of flow wood. So I saw a teeny tree nearby that I could chop by myself, and chopped it. Double and triple checked that there was nobody around, and just as I get that last chop in, someone comes running out of nowhere and I get the stink eye lol It happens

At the end of the day, it's a game. If someone is SO pressed that you took a resource, especially a small one, when they're as plentiful as they are in-game now, then they have issues

[cyan flame]

Have you tried through this other (official) feedback channel? It's the one I was sent once in a response to one of my support tickets.
https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7456733/Palia-Beta-Feedback

[static wolf]

i've... never seen this survey... only the one at palia.info/feedback

the fact that it immediately asks for email gives me a bit of pause

[molten swift]

Palium is the current top tier metal and rarest node in bahari, but there are more furniture sets that rely on palium than iron, and new sets added so far have been palium dependent not iron or copper. It's poor design imo to make your most plentiful metal less useful than your rarest metal (I'm excluding silver and gold bc they don't have their own nodes). You create a huge disparity between how much iron vs palium is needed and used by players, which makes the already rare palium feel even more rare. When we spend hours mining solo just for one piece of furniture's worth of palium but stacks of iron and stone and fewer uses for it... That's a balance problem imo. And if we don't clear out the other nodes then the palium spawning is lessened bc of the few palium nodes that you mine even fewer respawn as palium, so the spawning situation encourages players to strip mine but the crafting situation often leaves players with excess of other materials.

[north mesa]

looking at it, that's probably for a few reasons - making sure it comes from someone who has actually played the game, reducing spam/noise since it has to be an actual player, and letting them look at your account to see what's up if you report a bug

[static wolf]

that's possible, but everywhere in discord an alternate survey is linked (by the people who review the feedback) which doesn't ask for email, so my guess is that is the preferred survey

[north mesa]

what's the other survey? if you mean the zendesk form, well they get your email from that too

[static wolf]

the pinned one, in this message: #♿│accessibility-discussions message

[molten swift]

This palium issue gets really compounded for people who don't have a lot of time to sink into mining or have any sort of difficulties with mining in the game.

And sure, people shouldn't be rude or shame each other, but some people are adamant in their stance that not calling out palium is rude and it's why they shame. There is no clear indication from s6 that they aren't correct either. The amount of "palia etiquette" videos out there telling people to call out palium and if you don't you're the problem is wild, but they think they are objectively right.

[north mesa]

ah - i think that'll be a beta feedback vs general feedback thing as https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7456733/Palia-Beta-Feedback was first shared back in early august (closed beta, so limited access and I think it was sent in an email, but I didn't save any update emails) while https://palia.info/feedback is general feedback and was shared in late october was posted in august as well actually... maybe august_-ish_... it's an edited comment from a (now former) sixer

[static wolf]

I mean, palia player feedback has non-accessibility options as well: I remember them swapping over to a new form about that time (October ish), though I don't remember the link to the old one so that might be it. Maybe one of our shepps could ask to see if the beta feedback one is still looked at? But my guess is that support might have old links

since the feedback option on their support website also redirects to palia player feedback

[hoary heron]

I'll check on this

[olive acorn]

Palia please add a keybind for taking pictures! I am left handed and instead of (WASD) I use (IJKL) and I can't move backwards because (K) is set to the camera and I'm not seeing anyway to unbind that key. As a left handed gamer it's difficult to play many video games that do not have custom keybinding adjustments. It would mean so much if this could be changed in the future because I know I'm not the only one ❤️ Thank you!

[indigo notch]

I just filled out that survey. I recently got back into playing Palia (I started in open beta on my laptop and now play on my Switch) and I've noticed the same issue with motionsicknesd that I noticed originally.

[eternal skiff]

I doubt I have cus I only ever saw the other one, available on their general support page

Edit:I might be confusing things tho

[eternal skiff]

That's a real problem bcus just checking the view count on those videos should make it clear that they only reach a small portion of the global playerbase

[eternal skiff]

thanks you very much for those two links, I'll fill out both forms now

[cyan flame]

It asks for email and IGN, yes. It's not so different from logging into Palia's support site by typing in email and password. 🤷‍♀️

Also: @north mesa , thank you for incidentally enlightening even me on why there are pretty much two different forms for the feedback.
(As I said: one of the support team guys mailed the link to me in a response to one of the tickets, so I simply took for granted that it was another channel to send feedback, no questions asked. )

[eternal skiff]

Just wrote back one general feedback. Since the other link has no "accessibility" subcategory, I can't imagine it'd be worth it to write anything after all.

oops i might have had a small epilepsy episode and double posted the same ticket twice tho, oop

[elder veldt]

TL;DR Shepps and Palians come together to make a survey for you to provide feedback for on accessibility in Palia, for us to take directly to S6. (You should take it here: https://forms.gle/ttxAFhdA4a79fLdm6)

Just a friendly reminder from us and MelodicBlue, Mavebrick, and Admiralsky that we're still collecting responses until March 8th! Please circulate this widely wherever possible. The sorts of discussions that happen in this channel, especially, would greatly benefit the work we're trying to accomplish via this survey (amongst other initiatives, detailed in the survey!)

[tawny mulch]

I filled out the accessibility survey and just wanted to say this is one of my biggest pet peeves as a deaf player. I have to rely on the chat to find the grove since I won’t hear the pings. I don’t have limited vision and I already think the groves are hard enough to see as is without having to get close.

[glad rose]

You‘re talking right out of my heart about all the palium accessibility.
I just wanted to say, that - as someone who used to say that calling out Palium is rather important for the player community as a whole - that you‘re hating a bit much at the moment. I really understand and can feel that this know-it-all behaviour of some players is really annoying 😂 (as is in rl). However, in this case you wouldn’t be better than the others. There are some that really smash it in you‘re face, about that you have to call out, that‘s right. However, some people that say that someone should call out Palium just want EVERYONE to benefit from a node since everyone gets the same loot and thus the Palium get’s multiplied by the amount of Players that participated in the picking. These players are just thinking about more people than themselves especially if they know that there are currently several other people on the server desperately searching for Palium besides themselves. It‘s just not fair of you to just put a prejudice out there for people being social, even if you mean it the anti-hate way, because believe me … I still get what you mean and yes that is not good, but hating back doesn’t solve the problem. Especially not in the way you doing it. Rather try it in an understanding way. First, before you post messages like this, think in the other perspektive and ask yourself why someone would think, that what they’re doing is important. It will not only spare you a lot of grief but will even get you more supporters than doing it the hater-way.
So yes: You are calling out an important aspect!! I really support you for that, but on the other hand I feel a bit hurt for just wanting others to benefit. I‘ve seen a lot of none-callers picking palium right in front of my nose already as well, although they could have waited or at least looked for a second if someone is around. But they did not and by the time i arrived they just mined it and ran away. Not very nice either is it?

[eternal skiff]

Nah people should just cope with not getting a resource that's not actually that rare actually.
Calling out someone for mining Palium on their own is making a load of assumption on why they did it (edit: it might be due to a disability, as we initially brought up) and engaging in bad faith, which is closer to hating than anything else. Plus it's never done with tact or grace.

Edit: plus it just make people feel worse, especially when it's an accident.

Getting palium mined right in front of me happened to me plenty, and sure it's annoying but it's literally not that bad. Unless someone is taunting about this (it happened once, was super weird tbh), I roll with it. Better than to risk making someone anxious feel even worse or smth

[glad rose]

I think you understood me wrong. I just said that me for example, I dont hate when someone doesn’t call out palium. I understand that hate for not calling is unreasonable. I‘m just saying that some people that are calling out are doing it because they want others to benefit from it too which is why I think not calling out at all wouldn’t be in the mind of the developers. However, I understand both mindsets. I just wanted to say that hating hate doesn’t solve the problem ;)

and mining in front of others really is the worst case of it all. However, I would still not hate people for doing it because somtimes you just hold your camera onto the node and wont see people approaching. Just stating the cases or perspectives, but no opinion.

except for using „worst case“ maybe. - Eynia out

[cyan flame]

The thing is: there already is a visual clue for the grove, and it's also a bit hard to miss (unless you're across the map. Or it's buggy or something on user's end, in which case better notify the devs through a ticket to support).
(Btw, I borrowed the screenshots from a Tumblr user)

[clear raven]

True except when you need to be 2 meters close to the grove for the glow to appear (its like that for me these days)

[past gate]

Palium mining etiqutte is an ever-present topic. I understand there are a lot of feelings on both sides. I think, though, we're focusing on solutions for those with accessibility needs who are suffering anxious encounters due to a need for more clarity in the nodes.

[desert inlet]

There's also the factor of some of us have disabilities that don't always allow us a ton of time to play before we flare or because we are in a flare/what have you.
Calling out pal and subsequently waiting 5 to 10 mins for players to make their way around... or spending time looking around every hit because you're expected to be overly aware at all times, is just not realistic of expectations.
I don't always have the physical, emotional or mental capacity to do this.
While I'm not going to come swipe a node from under someone actively mining it, I'm also not going to sit spinning wildly in circles every hit or bringing up chat every hit to see if it shows players nearby.
This is especially true if I'm on my switch as it triggers extra flareups of issues I have.

There's so many invisible reasons someone may not be fully engaging "community" play styles.

[desert inlet]

This happens to me a lot and always has. That visual cue is definitely not there for me sometimes until I'm at the base of the cliff of say like, pulsewater or windy Grove spawn.
I've ran right by statue garden grove bc the glow didn't appear at a reasonable distance lol

[rustic oar]

100% agree with this. While I can understand trying to encourage players to interact as a community, making the most valuable resource so excessively rare is always going to cause issues - players are mostly nice about it for now, but it can easily turn ugly just by nature of its value + scarcity. As a veteran beta player of Sky, I can attest to this - when the high value commodity (candles) was more prevalent, players were far more likely to be kind and share resources; after the devs heavily nerfed acquisition, players were vastly less likely to share, even though the entire game is structured around community. A balance has to be found, and I don't think Palia's there yet - palium feels way too rare.

[desert inlet]

I personally had an easier time in its previous state. In theory, it spawning wherever iron does is great, but it was so much easier to just loop inside the Bluffs cave. I had a lot easier time then. Especially if I was there, another person or group was in flooded fortress, and/or another over by tamalas.
I know others don't agree and find it easier now.
But either spawn rates need increased or maybe need to merge old ways and new ways.

Pal just gives me anxiety in its current state. Cause if I play how I'm comfortable and what fits my disabilities, I'm not a "team player" and risk harassment and being called out over it. Sometimes I just walk right by pal because I simply have no desire opening that can of worms.

[elder veldt]

The tricky thing with the palium situation is that the accessibility issue (visibility & identifiability), is lumped in with two broader issues: social interpersonal conflict and limited resources in a limited space.

When I think of limited resources in MMOs, I think of many nodes across multiple maps across 10, 20, servers you can server hop between.

Palia has capped (i think) random spawns for a single map. On a server you get randomly assigned (and affixed to your friends list). Just too many people, not enough space to coexist quietly rn. I wonder if the etiquette problems would solve themselves with the release of more maps / locations with palium? The accessibility issues themselves need an explicit fix, though.

[timid pilot]

Yeah for me mining is also hard.
On thought i had was that they could additionally make it like the silver and gold ore, so that you have a change to get it while mining other material.

Im not able to give the location of the place palium spawns bc im not able to write on the switch also remembering where i am is hard. So with that we would be back at the issue that was already discussed here with easier ways to communicate (and communicate places)

[hoary heron]

It definitely seems like something that, upon a bit of rework, could be beneficial from an accessibility standpoint and helpful to other folks who may be abled, but have system-limitations like playing on Switch. crosses fingers hopefully

[radiant sun]

I think having some kind of direction system would be good too. Unless they've added once since I've played (I don't believe so) everyone calling out ores used to be some version of "There's palium above the A in Proudhorn Pass" which as you can imagine means a lot of waiting for people to figure out where exactly it is

[desert inlet]

Thats still how it is

[hoary heron]

Oh there have absolutely been times that I've seen the location call-out, made the attempt, then responded again in chat, "Nevermind, don't wait for me--I cannot figure out where y'all are within a reasonable time. Enjoy!" and then go about my day.

Oh! I also realized something (and maybe I mentioned in here already, but just in case I didn't) that changed somewhere in the past few patches--when a quest puts a circled area on the map where you need to go to find something, I've always struggled because I keep having to toggle in and out of my map, since we can't map and move at the same time, and no minimap; HOWEVER, they added a thing where the moment you step inside the area circled on your map, your compass-bar along the top of the screen will start gently glowing! So there's a visual indicator that you're within the bounds of the place you're supposed to be looking for something, and it stops when you step outside of it or when you've achieved what you needed to do and the circle vanishes from your map.

[molten swift]

I find it extremely ironic you're asking me to consider other perspectives before posting messages but seems you did not consider other perspectives including those that had already been shared here before posting yours. This conversation started because people here have shared they have been bullied in game for mining palium and how their real life disabilities contribute to how they mine palium and experience this bullying. That is the purpose of this space, to discuss how our disabilities affect us in game. Did you consider that there are a ton of issues players face that could cause them to not realize they are mining palium in the first place? Or unable to look around in game and check nearby players in chat every single time they mine a node that might be palium? Did you consider a single other perspective before writing your message? It's also pretty judgemental of you to assume I'm hating or what it is I'm hating. I love seeing sharing happen in servers and I call out and flare palium in game when I am able and willing to wait. I have guided people to difficult to find palium nodes, I do try to share when I can, but I would never shun or shame someone else for not doing so which is the issue that sparked this convo. I don't even blame people with your opinion for having it, that's s6's fault imo as I laid out in the first part if my message here #♿│accessibility-discussions message.

Palium is too rare for the amount of need the game creates for it plain and simple, it's a balance issue which leads players to these sort of behaviors and then players sit here and point fingers at each other and blame and shame, but we didn't create the scarcity problem, and it's not cozy.

Please keep in mind that this channel is here for players to talk about their disabilities, ways that palia (the game itself) is inaccessible to us, and finding support and workarounds to those issues.

[clear raven]

that's just the worse ahah i had the same experience, for me it began to do that a few days ago but hearing that it always happen for you is wild omg

[polar grove]

I typically assume if someone mines the Valium they probably have a reason and that reason is not mine. Can only control what I do and not worth letting myself be bothered because others don't do what I want them to do. I try all the time to firework palium but even doing that sometimes I check my inventory and find some when I didn't even realize. Best to not lash out without all info and ruin someone's experience.

[desert inlet]

There are some occasions it seems to be less... extreme but gosh it's exhausting to try and climb all the places just to see if there's a Grove when no one has found it lol

[polar grove]

Palium stupid fingers don't work anymore.

[molten swift]

First I agree that the accessibility issues related to identifying palium etc need an explicit fix.

Second I think there's only 2 straightforward solutions to the scarcity issue rn, either reduce the amount we need in the game for the furniture etc or increase spawn rates. A more involved method would be to change or tweak how palium is acquired, maybe by adding palium as a rare drop from iron or something. Adding another zone with more palium nodes might help but if those are also extremely rare the issues might just carry over into the new map. Hard to say.

I agree also that I think a lot of the etiquette issues will resolve themselves if the scarcity is addressed.

[desert inlet]

It would be nice if they'd let a couple pal spawn in the mine on our plot that goes to bahari even if just 1x a palian day and it was only 1 or 2 and randomly generated of size

[clear raven]

sorry if this message doesnt contribute much to the convo but i just wanted to say that you summed up my thoughts in a way i couldn't have, so yeah i totally agree

[molten swift]

I've thought and said the same, and a personal mine like this giving us a few resources and a more reliable way to get even a small amount of palium would be great

[hoary heron]

I have had two experiences with Flow Groves as a hearing player:

A) I'm far enough away that I can't hear them or see them, and I run all over the map trying to figure out where they are

B) They spawn right behind me and the sound jumpscares me like I'm about to get eaten by a ghost in a paranormal investigation game

I don't think the visual effects are strong enough from a distance and I don't like stressing about finding stuff so I end up stuck waiting for scenario B (which the jumpscare isn't exactly great for my POTS but at least I can find the dang thing then)

[desert inlet]

B happened to me the other day and I about crapped myself and it also messed with my POTS but then my ptsd from sudden loud sound 🤣

[hoary heron]

Oh noooo! 🤣 POTS-ies unite! Yeah, early on in my diagnosis, my partner accidentally jumpscared me as I was walking out of the bathroom--my heartrate spiked and I just dropped. My partner caught me and made sure I was okay before bursting into giggles and lovingly dubbing me his "fainting goat" 😅

[desert inlet]

We are goats. Crave the mineral (salt) and faint 🤣

[hoary heron]

Also, I know Palium has been a good chunk of the conversations in the past 12-24 hours, but wanted to send an encouraging reminder that there are lots of areas of accessibility in Palia that need some love, and those can still be talked about here. (And if you haven't already, take a spin through the survey in Marcy's post in the pins, and/or share it out to your friends so we can gather more data for this research and action project! We're up to 84 responses so far!)

[north mesa]

It definitely needs to be seen as soon as you have a visual on the spot at least (though having the pink glow taller so it's visible from even further could be good too) because for flooded fortress south and pavel mines you have to get closer than the others to see it cuz high cliffs

[hoary heron]

I wonder if part of the balance challenge there is making it visible (but not on the map itself) yet trying to be careful that the visual doesn't trigger photosensitivity? (I'd like to think that where they can, they're trying to avoid building in more accessibility, especially after how loud we all got about the Gales temple)

I'm curious as to what ideas folks have to make the groves more visible from a distance (like your suggestion of making the glow taller, Celosia) that wouldn't risk triggering photosensitivity-related conditions or be overstimulating?

[north mesa]

If the glowy sparkle flash effects (game wide really - fertilized spots, flow trees, floating runes, butterflies) could be made still/static with a reduced animation type user setting it'd help a bit

[molten swift]

I really think they should just show up on the map and you should get a marker on your compass and there should be a toggle where you can turn that off if you don't care about the groves or have fun hunting them down

[pastel mica]

I suggested a long time ago for them to do something similar to what ARKs in-game map has to make callouts easier. They could simplify it to letters and numbers even. (Ark uses longitude and latitude.)

[hoary heron]

My brain needs grids and standard points of reference for map-reading and I love having coordinates in other games. I get overwhelmed sometimes in FFXIV trying to describe where I am, so it's nice that I can just put <pos> in the chat and it'll send a message with my coordinates that, when clicked, add a little red flag to a person's map, which they can then use to locate me.

[pastel mica]

Would adding more colors to the sparkles that go up in the air help? So the shift is more than just purple and pink.

[desert inlet]

Any time I'm trying to call something out that's just in a rather blank area so I can't just say "above the e at flooded steps" or something 😭 I feel so bad esp bc I rarely carry flares

[hoary heron]

Ooh--it might; I get that flow is apparently purple-pink glow colored, but other colors might be more visible, or at least visible to a wider range of players.

[molten swift]

Omg that sounds great

[glad rose]

Seriously this is just a big missunderstanding! I really really thought about the perspektives you told! Which is why I was shooked about how outrageous this message sounds to me. I didn’t want to anger you! And I have no different opinion than you! I hate bullies and especially the ones that have to pressure their way onto others. So I wanted to rather support you in a way that just added one more teency aspect to the whole picture. I didn’t want to sound like I have nothing against the ways how it is done untill now. I do! Because your message opened my „normal“-person eyes. I just wanted to add what you repeated in the bottom of your message. I want nothing more. So excuse me if there was sth for you to read between the lines. I meant no harm. Which is why I will also stop talking now since I have the feeling one more word of myself would lead to one more misunderstanding.
I‘m no english mothertongue so maybe this is also an aspect that could lead to stronger missunderstanding.
Most important for you to know: I dislike every bit of cybermobbing, doesn’t matter if it‘s on other platforms, in a big or „small“ form (i think every mobbing is kinda big, which I think you agree with me. Im not stressing things like that to act as if Im arrogant. I dont want to be). I‘m also against any kind of boundaries that keep us all from properly playing together and I‘m totally up for just improving the play feel for everyone, which is why you missunderstood. You initial message just sounded to me as if every player who calls out, is a possible bully to you, but as you said it clearly isnt to you, so I‘m fine. Everything solved.
I hope you have a nice week and some more wonderful hours of gameplay ❤️

[icy juniper]

I was wondering if there was any talk around adding different font sizes to game settings I find the current font size a little hard to read.

[hoary heron]

There has indeed, at least among players--it's a highly desired feature, but we don't have any info yet on if S6 will be implementing a feature like that.

[unkempt hatch]

I may have been unclear, I was meaning directional 🙂 The sound cues for groves are directional. The clock is effective enough for knowing WHEN the grove appears, but while my daughter can promptly run in the general direction indicated by the sound, I have no way to know whether it was north, south, east, or west of my location. A visual indicator could allow us the same information - eg vague directional sparkles, not exceeding the info available via directional sound for those without hearing impairment. 🙂

[left aspen]

correct me if i’m wrong, but doesn’t the wind blow in the direction of the grove location? there is a visual indicator which direction the wind is blowing. maybe it’s just a coincidence, but that is something i felt like i have noticed before

[cyan flame]

Ohhh, now I see!
Yeah, even I have troubles guessing the direction of the grove's noise when it spawns. If so far I could go straight to it, it's been only because of players writing in chat "grove in [insert general area's name]". Some even go to the extent of deploying a flare.

[unkempt hatch]

It sounds like (pun haha) it might be helpful to many players to have a small visual clue as well as sound. The grove sound is both an indicator of distance (louder = closer) and the general direction. My daughter can pick up on both the distance and direction, but it is subtle enough that she still needs to look for it. Any visual indicator should (IMO) be similarly brief and vague to allow equal participation without eliminating the need to seek it out. that was why I thought of some sparkles - they could be brighter the louder/nearer it is and the general direction could be indicated by their position on the screen (not sure exactly how that would look, but you get the general idea) 🙂

[static wolf]

I never knew the sound was directional, I've just been wandering around lost. We absolutely need like a compass indicator for that

[north mesa]

yeah if you spin the camera it'll be louder in the direct of the grove and if you're too far away you can't really hear it at all

[desert inlet]

i knew it was directional but i rarely can tell from which direction. i normally just assume if i hear it i'm on the correct side of the map lol

[fair willow]

Oh man. That's another reason to avoid Bahari for me then! I already get jump scared by bugs and creatures startling. I didn't know the Grove could too! That's midnight game time, right?

[hoary heron]

We have confirmation! The form for feedback is the one pinned here in the chat: https://palia.info/feedback

I passed it along to the CMs and hopefully any future redirects from the Support team will point to this form 🙂

[static wolf]

Thank you for checking in on that!

[elder veldt]

Good news everybody! Just wanted to thank everyone here for their participation and circulation! After just a few days, the survey has almost reached its 100th participant!

We've already (almost) met our minimum standard, and are now aiming for the stretch goal of 400 responses by next Friday, March 8th!

If you haven't already, you can complete the survey (or share with your family, friends, and fellow Palians) here! Remember that this survey is for Everyone who plays, or has ever played, Palia.
https://forms.gle/ttxAFhdA4a79fLdm6

[old vector]

why oh why did we get cooldowned we almost never argue in here nd the only reason we do is when nondisabled or people here just to cause trouble are here :,,,) pls

[static wolf]

wait is the cooldown longer than usual? (EDIT: unsure if it was changed at the time of your last message, but to me the cooldown looks the same as it has been for a long while in here)

[rain panther]

Awesome ❤️

[eternal skiff]

From a longer distance, aurora borealises in the background? Some kind of effect on the map after you've come close enough/been at Bahari Bay long enough?

[eternal skiff]

Already modmailed about it, maybe they'll be more likely to listen if more people bring up the topic?

[cyan flame]

... You know what? They could spawn ||Ancient Flowbugs||. (Spoilering a good chunk because I'm dumping temple of gales small spoilers).
||Flowbugs are found in the temple of the gales and look just like regular Paper Lantern bugs and their green counterparts, but in a very distinct hot pink colour, because flow reasons. Instead of keeping them secluded on that airborne temple, devs could add those also in Bahari at ground level as visual indicators whenever a grove spawns, and then have them fly-floating in the general direction of said grove.||
Since single servers are known for hosting a total of 25 players max, spawning one of them nearby the single players in the same server shouldn't even be that big of a deal.
It would also be still very in-lore, given that the story (in short) goes as ||the more temples are unlocked, the more Flow™️ is increased in the area, especially Bahari bay||.

[static wolf]

that would be a very cool implementation! For me, the current visual indicator is practically useless- I usually can't see it until I'm in the grove, it just blends too much with the color of the sky for me. I think this idea has the added bonus of adding an indicator that's more at ground level, which can help with navigation more when there are visual obstructions (like the wall and cliffs) between where you are and the grove

[cyan flame]

If it won't slip my mind by then, once I'll be back home I'll send that suggestion in a feedback too.

[static rain]

Don't know if it was mention yet or reported to S6. Would like to have gamma in settings so I can make those nights in Bahari less dark. No way to see a bug on dark green grass for example.
Seems to go back and forth on light at night on various updates. Let us choose pls. It breaks my eyes.

[quartz maple]

Ironically nighttime is still too bright for me

[cyan flame]

The two comments above are a fine example of why sliders in settings should be a thing.

[naive anvil]

I personally preferred the darker nights as it was easier on the eyes for me + made warm lighting feel really cozy at night.
That being said, I am in full support of just... yknow, adding sliders so everyone can have day and night set to whatever brightness is best for them?
I honestly cannot comprehend why S6 seems so adverse to the concept of just... letting people adjust brightness themselves, there just isn't going to be one perfect flawless brightness level that works perfectly for everyone. That's not how it works, and the sooner S6 understands that, the better >>

[desert inlet]

Brightness. Text size. So many things that really aren't anything beyond standard.

[unkempt roost]

Game definitely needs a tom-tom like co-ordinates readout for calling out.

[woven knot]

Unfortunately I can no longer see dark text and light background so I can't fill it out.

[elder veldt]

Have you tried a high contrast extension for your browser? I think it may work with the google form

Let me know if that works, if not, I can figure out a workaround with you that suits you if you'd like!

[woven knot]

Yeah. They fix backgrounds/ excess screen space but not documents themselves.

You can go to File Settings and change background color to the off black and then the text to Light Grey 2, but you would have to select all of it so... I'm sure the feedback I would have put in there is already there and I am simply waiting around not playing anymore until it is implemented.

[elder veldt]

Would you like to (if you still even have the time / energy to participate) go through the survey directly with me in DMs here on Discord (which thankfully has dark mode)? Everything would be kept confidential, and you could opt-in or out of any questions you aren't comfortable answering.

In case you'd like more transparency about who you'd be working with: I'm a Masters student of Critical Disability Studies at York University. Although this survey is strictly made by the Palian community and for the Palian community only, I am very well-versed in established policies on ethical research (which applies to things like facilitating surveys and assisting individuals in submitting responses).

This offer is also open to Anyone who found or finds they have accessibility-related issues with the survey itself!

[pastel mica]

@woven knot This one works for Google forms and such.
Chrome - https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/dark-reader/eimadpbcbfnmbkopoojfekhnkhdbieeh
Firefox - https://addons.mozilla.org/en-CA/firefox/addon/darkreader/

[past gate]

Cooldown? Hmm does seem a little longer than it was? I could be mistaken.

[fair willow]

I use the Firefox DarkReader and I really like it.

[cyan flame]

The only downside of DarkReader is that it makes me forget that I am, in fact, using DarkReader.
Like the survey that's been linked: initially I saw people complaining about the bright yellow background, and I was like "... wut...? "

This is how the survey looked (and still looks) to me.
It's actually the page with the results, but the look also applies to the actual document.

[fair willow]

It also makes some pages even more unreadable sometimes, depending on the website's design. I have the keyboard shortcut to toggle it off memorized because of this. I still love the extension.

[elder veldt]

Just a quick little disclaimer that the screenshot posted is not the results page of the survey that we are responsible for and have been circulating

[grim ridge]

curious if anyone has thoughts about the gathering methods of pal vs flow trees? the more negative interactions I see between players, the more I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to (1) have pal regenerate health the same way flow trees do, so it can only be solo gathered if it's a small node (2) prevent small flow trees from spawning in groves at all

[hoary heron]

I don't think it would necessarily be a good idea to force more group-play when folks already have social anxiety with the current system, and can't participate in flow-groves and many flow-trees due to chat being too small for them to read (or otherwise visually inaccessible).

[static wolf]

I'm definitely against both (other than I do think the saplings in groves specifically should be upgraded to small, but small flow trees are fine)

I would much rather them make palium (or even all) nodes like forageables where a ghost node sticks around for a few minutes past when it's initially mined

[hoary heron]

That would be SO NICE. Tap it, flare it if you want, and keep moving.

[static wolf]

I'd also love to see large flow tree health regen reduced a bit (or a stronger tool) so they could be taken solo if necessary. I hate when I find a large tree, call it out multiple times, and nobody will come to hit it so I just have to skip out on resources

[green kelp]

Definitely not in favor of punishing solo players by limiting how much they can gather.

[grim ridge]

nod nod nod! appreciate the thoughts, maybe I went in the wrong direction. it does seem like having FT have a certain system that pal doesn't match to is causing some of the strife, but y'all are right, making everything FT-like is probably too limiting. I like the ghost-node idea for sure

[hoary heron]

Thanks for being open to feedback! Sometimes folks just drop in here, throw down their take, and get mad when we explain the challenges that arise with it. Welcome to the server!

This channel is where a number of Palians with disabilities and/or who have accessibility needs often gather and talk about the limitations we're experiencing with the game due to our disabilities/conditions/etc., share workarounds we've come up with, help validate each others' experiences, and talk about ways the game could be more accessible (which also helps us shape our feedback submitted on the feedback form). We also presently have an initiative going where we are surveying lots of Palia players to gather more data that we can present to S6 (more on that in Marcy's pinned post)!

Not everyone chats in here, and sometimes it gets a little spicy, but there's a lot you can learn about your fellow players in here, so lurking is fine too. 🙂

[haughty pecan]

I don't know if it's been said here but I think there should be a colorblind mode, not only that I think palium should either be shinier or make some kind of noise when you're up close, I'm not even colorblind but too many times I've mistaken regular rocks for pal and so many others have flared for them too

even just a lil sparkle like how some of the foraging items do y'know? sum to seperate it from the regular rocks

I feel I've said something wrong🧍

[static wolf]

Oh yeah, for sure, I feel like that's one of the top five things we discuss. I am not colorblind either, and I legitimately cannot tell Iron apart until I'm smacking it, and can't tell palium until I get very close

[grim ridge]

yeah of course! I didn't mean to seem like I was coming from on high with the best idea ever or anything, apologies if that was in any way the vibe it's just something I keep thinking about and that was my first-thought solution, which clearly doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, lol, but I'm sad at the increasing frequency of players clearly hitting clashing needs/expectations with the two rarer gatherables

[haughty pecan]

no yeah like if there's a heavy shadow on a regular rock I'll go "ooh iron" and then I hit it and it's just rocks

[hoary heron]

I think Palium makes a different, more chime-like sound when hit compared to other rocks, but it wouldn't hurt to have more things to help it stand out better!

[haughty pecan]

it does however you have to hit it to know, I don't wanna hit every regular rock to know which ones are palium and which ones aren't😭😭

[hoary heron]

Oh, it's been an issue at least since Closed Beta. And nah--I didn't think you came in with that vibe; was just extra appreciative of the openness you showed 🙂

[haughty pecan]

I just think the visible difference could be more,,,different if that makes sense

like maybe it sparkles a lil bit idk, just something to pull it apart from the rest aside from the color, something easier to notice from far away

[hoary heron]

Oh I don't disagree, and yeah--especially since it isn't self-repairing like a flow-tree and does not have the above-mentioned and hoped-for ghost-node function, having to hit it to confirm the node type is definitely a problem.

[haughty pecan]

yeah, and I wouldn't recommend a sound either because lots of people play without sound not to even mention deaf and hard of hearing players, I just hope whatever solution they find is added soon cuz I keep damaging my pick for regular rocks😭😭

[static wolf]

It also doesn't help that the tool to help you find nodes highlights iron too, so you can't even use that to try and figure out if something is palium

[grim ridge]

on that part specifically I was thinking that if saplings and small trees (which I was mistakenly thinking of as the same thing, I think) didn't spawn in groves there wouldn't be a risk of a solo player coming in to grab them; basically saying through design that groves are for group gathering... but doing something like that would also necessitate spawning way more saplings and small trees in general overworld, to make up for the lesser quantity of the drops

and gosh yeah I used an ore compass for the first time recently and was really surprised that iron and palium use completely the same symbol. I guess it helps avoid one person grabbing all the pal at once but still

[static wolf]

Yeah, I can see that argument, and it's frustrating because it means the groves overall net you like... 25 flow wood. I think if they made some other adjustments first (like having an automatic indicator for flow Grove locations, for example) to make flow groves more accessible, I'd be in favor of them consisting of only medium and large trees

Though I have had servers where nobody comes to the flow grove when I've called it out, so I'd also want them to make the change where you can solo large trees (even if it's very slow)

[hoary heron]

I think a sound is still important for players with vision-based conditions/disabilities; however, you are correct that it should not be the only solution because that would be excluding towards deaf and hard of hearing players as well as those who play with sound off for various reasons (auditory sensitivity/overstimulation, preference for their own music, no headphones, etc.), so a better visual indicator would be appreciated for sure.

[haughty pecan]

yeah and at least 4 trees also I'm tired of only 3 like what

[haughty pecan]

no yeah I just meant as an only solution, I think a combo would be best

I just know it's hard to implement a bunch of stuff into games, but I also don't know anything at all so like, what's realistic and what isn't y'know?

[hoary heron]

That's fair--though you have the benefit of not being the developer here so you don't have to figure how to make it realistic; your value is in sharing your experience, how the current setup makes you feel, and what might help it feel better/more fun! At that point, it's the devs' job to listen to all of that and determine what is realistic/achievable, and how to go about implementing it if that's the direction they decide would be best to go with for the game. That's not to say that devs should do every little thing we demand, but it's definitely easier for them to understand when there are problems with something if we communicate them. The sky is the limit for your ideas! In here, we just have the advantage of being able to help each other refine those ideas a bit before sending them off in the feedback form or through the survey we're running right now (in the pins). ❤️

[green kelp]

If they adjusted world flow tree spawns, everyone would benefit. If they then made groves group only, only groups would benefit. This punishes solo players, still.

Solo players are already blocked from large flow trees, both world spawns and groves. I don't see the point of further restricting that.

[grim ridge]

do you think there's good way to benefit solo players without just increasing the amount of FT loot drops without affecting the loot disparity?

would it be any better if all trees/nodes were always doable solo, and the difference with groves is that there's more trees/nodes at once?

[static wolf]

I think that would definitely make it better, I believe by default everything should be doable solo

[north mesa]

I've seen the suggestion of adding a bonus for doing nodes or trees together instead of having them be limited or require others - so more pallium nodes and big trees are eventually soloable, but if you don't with others then you get more logs and you get more ore or a higher chance of gold/silver/star stones. So that there's less basic resource issues especially for solo players, but an incentive to cooperate if you want to

[grim ridge]

yeah, there's the mechanical bonus for fishing together, so it wouldn't be unprecedented either

[noble kelp]

Why does there have to be incentive to play multiplayer? Playing with friends or making new friends is a reward by itself when people are up to it. For those who can't play multiplayer because their anxiety doesn't let them, they'll feel awful about not being able to progress at the same rate as everyone else and having to grind more

Making communication fun and easy really adds to that. Like adjustable sizes to the chat, text to speech, a good range of useful (not just cute!) emojis, easy to use emotes (which I don't think they are very easy as they are right now)

[north mesa]

palia already gets eviscerated for calling itself an mmo for how little coop/multiplayer it has now, so reducing that could be a problem having a bit of trade off in the change would make that hopefully less of a loss

[north mesa]

except where they haven't (steam tags and description just now feb 29th)

nintendo site (just now feb 29th)

[cyan flame]

Ahhh, my bad. Should've clarified that that's the result page of the first survey. The one about (in)accessibility in Palia, that is also encouraged to be answered by people who don't play this game specifically.

[cyan flame]

(just skimmed through the patch notes)
Well... Still disappointed but no longer surprised.
https://palia.com/news/patch-177

(And yes, I am in the right channel, a là "IYKYK" )

The only QoL I see is the mining nodes behaving like forage items, so players can now stop to (virtually) rip heads off left and right when someone "steals" the ores, especially Palium.
(Oh yeah, and the fact that we can finally go to Bahari bay without passing through Kilima first.)

[hoary heron]

I think the nodes acting like foraging items is a positive move for general gameplay and accessibility--we were just talking hopefully about that as a possibility in here yesterday. @static wolf actin' like an oracle, predicting stuff

There's also a new glow-thing they mention about forageables to help indicate when they're going to disappear--I believe there was effort put into it to make not a new accessibility-problem, but definitely give feedback on how it feels for you!

[elder veldt]

I agree that it seems like there's at least some implicit attention being given to the rising accessibility concerns. At least that's one good sign for our future efforts I think

[old vector]

i feel like thats not really an accessibility though bc so many ppl who wouldnt label it that wanted it so badly. people have been. really mad about it for a while, and not from an accessibility standpoint. i mean, it's a win for sure, i like the change too, but i'm not sure if i can call it an accessibility win? maybe im just grouchy though

[green kelp]

It helps accessibility for some so I'm glad it was added but I give zero credit to S6 doing it due to accessibility. There are much easier accessibility asks to fulfill than groves and palium reworks, such as a simple brightness slider, that nothing would convince me that S6 had accessibility as even a tertiary thought when doing them.

[elder veldt]

It's definitely a fair position to hold given what has been seen (or the lack of it) so far. That said, hopefully by not taking more steps backwards, we have an easier time moving forward to that proverbial table. 🤞

[old vector]

thats exactly what i was trying to say yeah-- like it might be an accessibility win on the consumer side but accessibility was not the thought behind it :,,)

[elder veldt]

If it helps at all with keeping people's hopes up that we're making some tiny progress slowly towards bringing the voices here to the table: we were able to post the survey to the gen chat with the eyes of the CM team/mods without any hassle! People outside of this immediate community have been showing their support.

So, we're not alone in our frustrations.

We're definitely working with baby steps here.

[eternal skiff]

Hm.

[north mesa]

just read through the patch notes (aka just woke up). Seems like some of the qol improvements and bug fixes are kinda sorta tangentially almost accessibility related

• Forageable items will now also have a “despawn” glow effect after being foraged on other players’ screens.
• We’ve extended the duration flare arrows stay active to support the change to mining nodes.
• You can now go directly to Bahari Bay from your Housing Plot! (fewer loading screens!)
• the ghost nodes (already discussed ) should help folks with social anxiety, any sort of trouble with chat, trouble with discerning node type, and folks with limited time (fatigue or responsibility related) play solo without vitriol
• fixing(not adding or expanding) switch and controller functions
• fixing some unintended visual issues in spots throughout the game (lighting, textures, frame rate, rendering)
• fixing some missing translations
• The compass’ text should now be a little larger, and easier to see.
• fixing missing hover/alt text
• fixing incorrect tooltips
• fixing missing visual effects/indicators
• fixing button states
• fixing duplicate/looping/out of sync animations, audio, and texts

[static wolf]

I can't believe how many things I called for this patch, I feel psychic. I wasn't even really expecting the node one

[pastel mica]

I'm excited for the node change and all the new decor \o/

[north mesa]

so. much. new. decor. and bug fixes! plus there are new found item quests wich is nice since I only had 2 quests left to do before this patch

[static wolf]

Yes, agree! And I'm so grateful they listed out all the fixed bugs this time (and omg, shoutout to Ashe and Mel for how long that must've taken), it really helps us understand where we should expect to see improvements.

That said, the known issue with requests has me a bit scared, it felt like the system just finally "fixed" last patch, and I had hoped they were going to improve it this patch.

[north mesa]

i didn't count, but I don't think they listed out all 250+. Having a list this time is good though, there were fixes in the last patch that weren't even obliquely referenced

[static wolf]

I had felt like I scrolled through 250, but you're right that I didn't count, so there probably wasn't the full full list. (edit: counted ~115)

[pastel mica]

They never end up listing out everything they fix. But it could also be many of the fixes they did resolved multiple things.

Hopefully the requests thing hasn't affected too many people cause that could become a progression blocker early on.

[cyan flame]

I'd like to apologise for the burst of "bittersalt" from earlier.
I didn't know that what can be considered as "accessibility" has been accounted for in the patch notes under "QoL" and even "fixes".
For example: I've read that someone mentioned the thing with the nodes acting more like the forage items. Lo & behold, it's right there in the patch notes. I completely missed that suggestion; most times my brain automatically shifts into "nope" when it's about trying to read through a lot of text.
I'm now actually glad that the devs have been allowed to take some further steps on the accessibility side, no matter if it's called either "QoL" and/or "fixes". As long as they can implement the thing(s), imho all is still good.

[pastel mica]

A lot of stuff for accessibility will probably be listed under QoL updates tbh just because of the nature of what the updates are likely to be.

[north mesa]

accessibility is critical for people who need it and quality of life improvements for everyone else - accessibility features do help many people without the targeted disabilities which is why they're great for growth

[elder veldt]

Baby steps in the right direction! We'll get there.

[pastel mica]

The new rummage is apparently in NE Bahari Bay today. 😮 I will find the specific spot once my game updates.

[quartz maple]

i was hoping it wasnt a rummage pile based on rng but im honestly just really sad n tired about it...

[pastel mica]

It'd be nice if it was guaranteed to give a pattern a day until you run out of ones you can learn from it then it's mats.

[north mesa]

someone's got it #1172250012873408615 message

[pastel mica]

Awesome!

[noble kelp]

I want a patch notes that is just accessibility for once, since they've ignored it for so long

[north mesa]

i think the sign of that coming would be s6 hiring and accessibility engineer

heads up - the chat box on pc sometimes flickers after the patch (definitely a bug and not intentional)

[whole trail]

I’m not available to play to check this myself - are you seeing the flickering text box on Switch or PC? —just saw the message edit; thanks~

[north mesa]

didn't see this in patch notes (just said compass text was bigger), but the icons have a background so we have that light dark contrast regardless of what you're looking at. Seems like they sneak in tiny accessibility improvements here and there

[static wolf]

oooh, that's so nice!

[hoary heron]

Thank you for calling those out! It's nice to see, even if they aren't listed under a big banner saying "ACCESSIBILITY!"

[pastel mica]

here's with text

[hoary heron]

I do agree that it would be nice to have a set of notes or a devblog specifically dedicated to talking about accessibility in Palia, acknowledging the missteps with the community and all the feedback we've given, and then what they've been doing to change that and what they are committing to doing to continue improving it for the future.

[pastel mica]

and that's what the new checkmarks on furniture look like for things you've crafted

[hoary heron]

It's not perfect but someone is clearly starting to think about color-contrast!