dnd-discussion

[jolly canyon]

lvl 15?

[knotty vine]

mainly cause it can just turn into this https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/3731044-scion-of-stronmaus

[paper portal]

depends on the party

[umbral girder]

Both my Friday groups would murder both Sul Khatesh and Rak Khatesh at the same time, it would be sick to do one shot to do.

[knotty vine]

which would wash a level 10 party

[severe rampart]

I wonder what's the most spells you can cast in one turn, because Fey Touched, Fiendish Legacy, etc. exists so you wouldn't be expending a spell slot (5.5e)

[knotty vine]

ive done 4

[jolly canyon]

lets say i got a party of 4 balanced sqaud all new/newish. best guess on lvl.

[severe rampart]

the true best spellcaster, a bard with a (literal) silver tongue

[severe rampart]

let's see, Cantrip, Magic Action, then what?

[umbral girder]

Reaction spell from a magic item
Eldritch Knight level 15 (I think) action surge for Two
Thief rogue or Fey touch Misty step for a bonus action

So 4 spells I’d say.

[severe rampart]

Cartomancer too yeah?

[knotty vine]

nah hold person into slivery barbs into divite smite into scorthing ray

[umbral girder]

Mainly because action surge in 5.5e cannot use the Magic action

But Eldritch knight can cast a spell with the Attack action bypassing that.

[knotty vine]

yeah

improved war magic!

[paper portal]

meh im doing a thing rn where a guy has like 400 dpr (including hit chance) so with good initiative this thing would die before its first turn

[severe rampart]

mmm Dissonant Whispers Eldritch Blasting someone

[paper portal]

lone monsters in general are very easy to beat just through sheer action economy

[knotty vine]

put divine smite into an enspelled weapon

yummy

[paper portal]

also it doesnt have anything with big range

[severe rampart]

been thinking of in the future giving my battlemaster elf (player) a magic item that can transform into any melee weapon

[knotty vine]

Conjuration, Divination, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation school of magic. The weapon has 6 charges and regains 1d6 expended charges daily at dawn. While holding the weapon, you can expend 1 charge to cast its spell.

divivne smite is an evocation! and its also a proper spell now

[umbral girder]

Yep! Did this for my Paladin in one of my games and he gets to smite way more often a day

[severe rampart]

I'm 5% sure this already exists

[knotty vine]

i feel like there should be an epic boon for bypassing immunity to damage

[umbral girder]

Eh

[fallow lintel]

im at school rn

[knotty vine]

we can bypass resistance but not immuntity

[paper portal]

rip

[fallow lintel]

lol im at my recognition

[paper portal]

i dont think i would recognise you

[severe rampart]

before you go on, please don't give out any personal information on the internet

Any way, how is everyone doing today?

[paper portal]

no im very truthworthy and you can tell me everything /j

[idle oar]

ahem, please mind the User Safety rules folks

[severe rampart]

Trench coat... no... it can't be... two kobolds in disguise

[paper portal]

youre right it isnt

[oak grotto]

I am very confused. Why is Favored Enemy showing up as an amalgamation between its 2014 version and its newest version on DnD Beyond?

[empty thicket]

its... weird...

[oak grotto]

Is that supposed to be a thing?

[empty thicket]

it depend, in 2014 was something that most people said it was a waste of feature

in 2024 it kinda dont exist at all

[oak grotto]

So why is it still showing on DnD Beyond for 2024 rangers?

[empty thicket]

might be a #ddb-feedback that, if not i dont have any idea

could be bugged, it happen too
Can be you have 2014 rules enabled
etc.e tc.

[oak grotto]

Yeah, I have posted this same question there. I'd like some clarification.

[small geyser]

Good Night everyone. One question, If a have a paladin with 8 Dexterity, and I want to use a Heavy Crossbow without Disadvantage, I could use the cantrip of True Strike to attack with Charisma, this Will allow me to bypass my low Dexterity and shoot the Heavy Crossbow without Disadvantage

[umbral girder]

Heavy property is still there

[small geyser]

Lets say I have 13 Strength

[umbral girder]

Still there

Changing your attacking stat doesn’t change how the Heavy property work

[lavish flame]

u need Dex for a heavy ranged weapon

[small geyser]

Lets say I use the 2024 versión of True Strike, and Attack with Charisma

[umbral girder]

True strike does nothing to the Heavy Property

[frail wasp]

true strike doesn't bypass heavy

[umbral girder]

Just like how Pact of the Blade doesn’t either

[small geyser]

That I did know

[potent vector]

You could technically bypass it by having Advantage since they cancel out, but otherwise you're outta luck til you have better Dex.

[umbral girder]

Or don’t use a heavy ranged weapon

[empty thicket]

I find weird to see a paladin using a Longbow but i feel it would fit him a H.Crossbow ngl

A H.Crossbow with symbols and stuff on it

[toxic sand]

Besides consumables and enspelled items, are there any items in either 2014 or 2024 that cast haste? Preferably a staff

[eager marsh]

Enspelled Staff is literally that sorry

[hot reef]

Blackrazor

[small geyser]

Look for Spell Scrolls. If You have the spell, You only need Arcana to make them

Is an alternative

[cobalt escarp]

I mean you could just homebrew an item

[toxic sand]

Eh, I'm playing a thief/wiz and was looking for more ways to get off turn sneak attacks when true strike Scrolls are scarce. Lol

[eager marsh]

if scrolls for a cantrip are scarce, anything else would likely be harder. but this feels more a conversation for you and the DM

[toxic sand]

The campaign will likely end around 12. So very rare and beyond will be pretty tough. And Attunement slots will likely be a pain

[toxic sand]

Yeah you're right. They're a new DM. They still figuring out how to handle stuff. And I didn't want to burn through like 60-120 gp of Scrolls every combat if I can help it. Lol

[eager marsh]

I would instead recommend against trying to minmax for a new DM but thats not a topic for this channel anymore. good luck

[small geyser]

One question. How in 2024 DnD How often players use or make spells scrolls? I started to look how to make them, and I did find it amazing thing to do as roleplay and as a combat bonus

[eager marsh]

not a rules question. but entirely up to the DM

[toxic sand]

Lol. They're a player in my pf2e game. I helped them optimize there. They knew what to expect when they invited me so they could learn. Plus.... it's a Rogue, likely the weakest class in the game.

[cobalt escarp]

i would use the rules that a wizard has for copying spells into their spellbook but modified in some way

[viral kraken]

as a rogue i am offende... oops i died

[eager marsh]

That isnt what they asked and scrolls have existing rules for creation

[toxic sand]

It seems there's a ton of conflicting info. If you have down time to craft, extra gold, or a stronghold. Pretty often DM permitting. If you have a GM that is stingy with items and counts them as one of the 100 you're suppose to get by lvl 20. They'll be tough

[small geyser]

Any character with spells and Arcana can make spells scrolls

[toxic sand]

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Rules:Scribing Spell Scrolls

[rough basalt]

Monday game hit level 6

[woven flint]

Yeah we did, we're gonna die

[rough basalt]

Now they got divine duties

[fallow lintel]

holding a d20 in school

[sour pecan]

never played dnd before, is dnd fun?

[fallow lintel]

yes

find a campaign right now or ele

[sour pecan]

on a scale from 1-10 how fun

[sour pecan]

uhh idk how to find campaign

[fallow lintel]

infinite ofc

[rough basalt]

When it's fun, 10

[sour pecan]

where do i find one

[fallow lintel]

i so love dnd

[rough basalt]

Sometimes you'll have unfun moments.

[fallow lintel]

nah even tho i havent been in a campaign dnd is somehow fun

[sour pecan]

so how do i find a campaign whatever its called

[rough basalt]

#looking-for-players and other places with LFGs like r/LFG subreddit, other dnd discords, discords for virtual tabletops that dnd is played on.

Lots of places

[sour pecan]

like how do i find one thats right now

[rough basalt]

You don't

[sour pecan]

shucks

[rough basalt]

Finding a game as a player can take days, weeks, even longer, it depends on luck

[lavish flame]

its the most fun you can have with your mind

[rough basalt]

Cause you're competing with loads of other people also applying for games

For DnD, for example the common ratio mentioned is 10 players per 1 dm.
Personally I believe it's more 100 players per 1 dm.
A DM is who runs the game.

And not all DMs are currently running games, or need players for their games.

[fallow lintel]

i did 7p 1dm in rr and 9p 1dm in mc okay..?/ref

[rough basalt]

Huh?

[prime basin]

Quick question for you guys, do you guys think that 10 feet of blindsight is too much for a subclass feature? I know the blindsight fighting style exists but this is just one of the three subclass features for a subclass I'm making

[broken imp]

depends

[empty thicket]

Its okey, only useful if using Reach weapons or some specific Range weapons.

[broken imp]

on it's own it's fine

[humble cairn]

Ranger gets 30ft of blindsight so no, it's not too much for a class feature.

[empty thicket]

It depend of the rest of content too.
If its some sort of "gloomstalker" first features, if you know what i mean. Would need some lil balance in other parts

[umbral girder]

Yeah Ranger has fog cloud so they can bully people with the combo for example

Will this subclass have something with it?

[prime basin]

Funny that you mention that because that was the class this subclass was for

I forgot about the 18th level ability

[empty thicket]

Oh and depend for what class it is too.
If its for fighter i would say its okey like feature

or the whole concept of the subclass

[prime basin]

It is for ranger

[empty thicket]

10ft of blindsight in a class that can access to fogcloud and other stuff
What is the idea//concept of it?

[umbral girder]

In a class that already gets blind sight too (although pretty late unless it’s the fighting style)

[humble cairn]

Blind Fighting is also a fighting style.

[prime basin]

I'm making a snake themed subclass and one of the primary attributes about how they hunt is through there senses so I was thinking of adding blindsight or tremor sense

[humble cairn]

There are multiple layers of redundancy.

[prime basin]

Indeed

[umbral girder]

Tremorsense could work well

[prime basin]

It can, snakes use vibrations to detect prey but I find tremorsense to be kinda weak

[umbral girder]

Good for dealing with underground things and I think through walls?

[prime basin]

at least in a 10 ft radius

[umbral girder]

Dwarf moment

[humble cairn]

How about letting the subclass have an extra fighting style (Blind Fighting being an option) with the ability to swap that fighting style every level up?

Then you can have your blind fighting style and then swap it out when you get blindsight naturally from Ranger?

[umbral girder]

This is getting to more #homebrew but this is about snakes

[empty thicket]

Okey, so smelling or thermosensitivity would fit, resistance to fire damage (?)
Apply poison in an attack that could be unharmed would too or spit venom or lure enemies//apply some status doing a sound like a rattlesnakes.

[prime basin]

Nah, just seems extra

[prime basin]

I know but it was simply a question about one thing

[empty thicket]

if not graple have advantage too

[humble cairn]

What, really?

Champion gets an extra FS.

[prime basin]

An extra fighting style doesn't really fit to me. It's an ability based on sense not necessairly better fighting

[prime basin]

I'm just thinking of an ability for sense for now

[humble cairn]

Then make it the Blind Fighting Style only?

[prime basin]

Yeah but then it becomes redundant at level 18

[feral fulcrum]

Because Champion is a pretty boring "Fighter, but with Extra Fighter."

[humble cairn]

Then allow it to swap out?

[prime basin]

Which is why i suggested tremorsense, but what would a good radius for that be?

[prime basin]

I'm not doing a fighting style, period

[humble cairn]

Ok 🤷🏽‍♂️

[prime basin]

anyway do you guys think 10 or 15 is better?

[feral fulcrum]

10 is basically the standard for such senses

WOTC generally ignores exotic senses that are not Darkvision. With the only ways to get acces to them is through things like Polymorph and the like, generally.

[woven flint]

Back to tremorsense, I think it's STRONGER than blindsight honestly, because it can go through to a certain radius in other rooms you're not in

You can detect things without even having to see them or be within sight of them

[feral fulcrum]

It's kind of dissapointing that Earth Gensasi didn't get some kind of Tremorsense

[umbral girder]

Makes me want to try a Dwarf

[light cape]

ya thats fair

[woven flint]

Maybe if they get updated they will

[feral fulcrum]

I kind of doubt it

[woven flint]

We can hope, right?

[umbral girder]

Since Dwarves can get temporary tremor sense

[feral fulcrum]

WOTC seems allerigc to exotic senses being easy to a PC to access

[light cape]

if their blind i think they have it outright

[feral fulcrum]

Limited to a Minute, and to being on Stone. it is at least, 60 feet

[umbral girder]

60ft is pretty big

[feral fulcrum]

yeah but unless you're in a stone building, on bare rock undeground (because above ground,... your eyeballs are vastly more useful), it does basically nothing.

[woven flint]

Stone is also a VERY common building material

[feral fulcrum]

So, kind of niche and situatuional

[woven flint]

Especially for let's say....

Dungeons

[feral fulcrum]

For dungeons, but wood floors are the most common.

[woven flint]

I think it's more up to dm fiat what the floors are made of in some places, don'tcha think?

[feral fulcrum]

Shrugs

[umbral girder]

Hmm thinking about it, the module I’m running Tokii. How many maps didnt have stone floors?

[feral fulcrum]

All floors are now plastic by DM fiat

[woven flint]

Literally only the ship we've been on

[umbral girder]

Which was partially in stone

[feral fulcrum]

I'm just not a fan of "Only works in X scenarios" Abilities because that's so terribly easy to get early 2014 Ranger Syndrome

[umbral girder]

Ok now I’m realizing every map in that module does…. As does…… ok I think Tyyranny of Dragons had a wooden floor map twice

Yeah thinking of all the modules I have ran, stone floors is crazy common.

I had a homebrew’d game that was a lot of desert and overland travel so that one would be a good “very little stone” game

[woven flint]

That's the thing though
It's WAY less situational than something like favored terrain/enemy

[umbral girder]

I need to check Phandelvar I know at least 1 map that has none, I need to check if there is a 2nd map that has no stone floors

Nope I’m wrong! Even the inside of buildings are stone!

It’s all stone! How is there so many stone floors and I have never noticed?

[woven flint]

It's not specifically something always looked for lol

[limber trail]

Oops all stones

[umbral girder]

So I guess that tremor sense is pretty common?

Ok this is gonna be a counter in all my campaigns moving on

[woven flint]

Tremor Sense is also an incredibly valuable tool because it's not a visible way of detection or something you have to cast like a spell

[fickle heart]

The unfortunate downside of this is kinda what we're seeing with "oops, all THP" and "oops, all teleportation."

The game arguably reversed too hard.

[umbral girder]

Even CoS??? How much stone floors are there?

I guess the reason could be “what if players try to burn it down”

Or “what if they cast fireball”

[woven flint]

Delvers Claws giving Blindsight over tremor sense annoys me greatly

I get that they're like
Moleclaw shaped gloves, but c'mon!

[supple barn]

Calling all adventurers! I made a D&D-style game—still rough and the combat system isn’t fully built yet. Can you try it and tell me if it’s fun and worth continuing the quest?

https://dnd2024.itch.io/1

[fallow lintel]

ok

[ripe nimbus]

“in a stone building with bare rock floors underground” is like half the game in many, many adventures

that’s basically Default Dungeon™

[livid owl]

All this is making me want to play a worm again, damn it

[ripe nimbus]

Dwarves are awesome dungeon crawlers in ‘24

[flint ledge]

Hellooooo everyone!

[fallow lintel]

wsp somebody

[light cape]

wsg guys

[flint ledge]

Having a nice day thus far

[hoary totem]

Peace cleric should have kept the name of Unity Cleric. Emboldening Bond is NOT peace...

[round mountain]

Peace through violence obviously

[burnt grove]

If you achieve peace through violence are you any better than those tyrants who you dethroned to get there?

[odd valley]

yes

[burnt grove]

Just another face wielding the mace

[limber trail]

I do not agree at all, if you topple a tyrant with violence you aren’t as bad as a tyrant

[burnt grove]

If you enforce the peace you created with violence was there any change to begin with?

If they only listen because of violence

[odd valley]

oh that’s a different thing

[limber trail]

There is 100% so much room for change

Let’s say you start a revolution to kill a tyrant who was executing people in the town square. Did you use violence to topple them? Yes. Is that technically enforcing peace? Yes. Does that make you as bad as them? No.

Violence isn’t a yes/no binary, it’s a tool, there can be evil pacifists and noble warriors

[pure python]

Hi guys,I am new and does anyone want to talk?

I don't really know about this server but I came to play dnd because it seemed fun

[reef copper]

It is more quiet here than usual

[reef copper]

I guess wait like 1 hour and most of eu will be awake to chat

[pure python]

Okay

Are you free? I have few questions

[reef copper]

Shure, will go more or less whenever i have to so might randomly disappear. But have a few minutes atleast

[pure python]

Okay so I am like new new to dnd and want to know that what is bare, wizard, fighter etc? And you know the basic stuff

[knotty pasture]

#dnd-newcomers

[reef copper]

I love introducing people to ”a crap guide to dnd” for a class breakdown. But for dnd you can approach it more or less however you want. You have all from low magic tribalism stories to magic scifi.

Dnd is a game where all players basically are protagonists in a book and the dm is the worldbuilding and all the side characters

Dice introduce the random aspect to make the game a bit unpredictable and arbitrarily add extra layers of stakes

[reef copper]

I recommend that your first character is somewhat based on a character you like so you have an idea on how the character would react on a lot of things. Or that you basically make a self insert that have abilities you find would be interesting to have

[pure python]

I came to this server after seeing a short where person who I think was bard decided to dance with the whole to distract enemies. I love random chaos

*Bar

Should I check dnd new comers? I am done talking and you can talk if you want

[severe rampart]

Yeah but those are mainly meant for engagement and etc. And does not reflect the real game, unless the table/campaign is like that

[fair summit]

Yeah any popular dnd podcasts tend to lean more towards roleplay and improv over mechanics, since its the former one that most watchers are gonna care about, and have higher production costs especially if popular, so a game you're gonna play in yourself is likely gonna feel lot different

[paper portal]

podcasts are made to be fun for viewers, dnd is made to be fun for players

[knotty pasture]

Also bc podcasts are made by entertainers

Most of the community isn't as professional as that and are just here for a good time

[paper portal]

unlike me

im also not professional but im here for an EVIL time

[fair summit]

It's why my favourite podcasts are less popular ones, and I enjoy them because of more balanced focus on the game part of roleplaying game 😌

[round bay]

What's a creative way using True Polymorph?

[toxic sand]

Cast Simulacrum, Cast Magic Jar, have simulacrum true polymorph the original body into an Amethyst Dragon. End magic jar. Wizard with a dragon body.

[red steppe]

using Atropals to print nigh-infinite wraiths

[dim wasp]

Are there any dragon mounts that aren't small

[glad arch]

I mean a dragon can be a mount, you just gotta convince it to be one

[dim wasp]

(or force it)

[glad arch]

Gl forcing a dragon to let you ride into a battle

[humble cairn]

Well .. unless you're Tiny sized you can't use any mount that's Small anyway, so just about anything you would be able to mount has to be Medium at the smallest.

[hot gate]

Dragonnels are dragons that are known for being mounts.

The book that showed them off (Fizbans) suggests that they could be a valid mount for Find Greater Steed

[green mirage]

Man, I love multiclassing with warlock, It's truly a fantastic class that allows you to create so many interesting combinations

[paper portal]

true!

druids also get credit for being the easiest to multiclass

[green mirage]

it's a shame that they're all less strong than relying on eldritch blast and its invocations

[green mirage]

really?

[paper portal]

yep cus they have the least reliance on stats so you dont have to worry about being MAD

[green mirage]

like i was trying to find good synergies between pact of the blade and the arcane archer subclass, but it ends up being a downgrade to just using eb

[green mirage]

interesting

[hot gate]

You could always just flavor eldritch blast as your warlock using some sort of shadow bow

[paper portal]

yeah average martial experience

[green mirage]

now that you mention a couple of players in my main campaign have dipped or play druid

[green mirage]

that's what my dm said as well lol

for how much i love playing warlock i usually avoid using eb

[paper portal]

i used to be the same but the more i use it the more i like it

its just so good

[hot gate]

Ah, fair enough. I think it got quite a bit easier with the more flexible approach to invocations in 2024 to do that.

[green mirage]

You have so many good options when building the class, but you'll always do better if you invest all your invocations into a single cantrip

the fact that eb scales with character level instead of class is also wild

I think that's what truly makes it busted. I think they should have just made it a warlock feature

[paper portal]

well thats all cantrips

tbh they shouldve made extra attack the same

[humble cairn]

I mean they did make it less accessible to non warlocks in 2024.

[green mirage]

instead of relegating it to this weird limbo

[worn lagoon]

they made everything warlock inaccessible to warlocks as if they didn't make warlocks alluring enough to play

[humble cairn]

And without some decently heavy investment into invocations, it's not really that much better than Fire Bolt.

[worn lagoon]

I did EB-less warlock once. Pact weapon was a bow and I ran 1 fighter 5 warlock. Had 14 sharpshooter so it was more damage than EB.

[green mirage]

yeah, but it's so easy to just put two to three invocations on it

[worn lagoon]

two levels into warlock as an otherwise non-warlock is a heavy investment

[humble cairn]

Bladepact in '24 also does three attacks, so that's nice, too.

[worn lagoon]

It's not close to compensating for old SS' loss though

[green mirage]

yeah but Eb scales with tot level so you already EB as well as a full warlock, isn't that crazy

[humble cairn]

Old SS was too much, and skewed the balance. It's good that it's toned down.

Like how it's good that Surprise was toned down.

[worn lagoon]

I completely disagree with any nerfs to martials

[humble cairn]

I mean also, old SS was surprisingly bad sometimes.

[green mirage]

imagine you could dip 2 into figher and get multi attack based on character level

what's ss

[paper portal]

yeah they buffed a lot of stuff but the strongest martials got worse

so the divide is bigger now

[worn lagoon]

It's kinda wonky because if you're not already a charisma caster you either have wonky stats or you barely benefit from it

[humble cairn]

Overall I don't even think it was a martial nerf, it was a rebalancing to make more martial builds viable. And I think it worked, personally.

[hot gate]

I have to say at my table it feels a lot more even all around.

[humble cairn]

I don't agree, not for most tables.

[humble cairn]

Yeah, that's how I feel, too.

[worn lagoon]

And if you are a charisma caster besides warlock
you're either delaying magical secrets, the best thing about bard, by two levels
or you're unable to benefit from innate sorcery since it's not a sorcerer cantrip

[hot gate]

I also have no idea tbh

[humble cairn]

Having SS and GWM be must have Feats to even be considered viable as a martial was toxic. Now more martial builds are viable.

[humble cairn]

Sharpshooter

[green mirage]

oooh

[paper portal]

well it is table dependent yeah but generally the more optimized you go the bigger the divide is, and its to the extent where some tables that arent consciously optimizing at all can still feel its effects

[worn lagoon]

It's more along the lines of the ceiling was lowered for all martials

[hot gate]

Gotta say, being in the latter category, that's news to me.

[worn lagoon]

It's not that it made the power feat-less martials good, you just gutted their one lifeline.

[humble cairn]

Same. It doesn't feel like the divide is bigger, it feels like it's smaller. The divide was never about damage, in the first place, it was about Utility options.

[paper portal]

yeah they needed to buff the other options not nerf the only good one

[humble cairn]

Not how it feels to me.

[worn lagoon]

Okay.

[green mirage]

i mean unless you're about to get magical secrets then it's a great trade off

[paper portal]

same as ranger, they gutted gloomstalker when it was really that the other subs needed a buff

[hot gate]

True, and utility has since increased in 2024, with everyone getting more options.

[pliant sapphire]

New GWM is nice. Sad is only for melee, HCrossbow or longbow

[humble cairn]

I totally disagree about Ranger '24. I'm playing one and it's great!

[paper portal]

yeah warlock is arguably the best class in the game for dips

cleric being its competition

[worn lagoon]

They might've destroyed the ceiling, but the floor is higher, and the bar to feel good in D&D and succeed in typical encounters is not high enough to warrant optimization.

[paper portal]

sorc is fantastic too, i wonder what all these classes have in common

[worn lagoon]

If you're never getting to magical secrets I'd just not play a bard personally. A bard without magical secrets is missing something essential.

[paper portal]

bards are such a nothing class they will forever be my least favourite

[worn lagoon]

The know-everything caster takes a bit too long to know everything and is stuck with a worse wizard/cleric spell list until then.

[humble cairn]

I'm even playing in a campaign where the DM is not taking it totally easy on us and I'm not only keeping up, I'm giving some fairly crucial contributions to the party.

[worn lagoon]

I mean, you have spike growth. Ignore every other ranger feature and that will still allow you to contribute greatly.

[humble cairn]

I consider myself a Bard main. Last timeI played a Support/Control heavy Lore Bard was great!

[humble cairn]

I have literally never used that.

[worn lagoon]

You should give it a try, it's fun and strong at once.

[paper portal]

spike growth is so peak its probably my second favourite spell (behind of course plant growth)

[humble cairn]

Bane/vicious Mockery/Cutting words was such a great combo to make enemies look like total fools.

[worn lagoon]

Especially if the party cooperates with it and uses synergizing spells in tandem.

[humble cairn]

I favor Entangle and Summon Beast/Fey.

[worn lagoon]

Command in 24 to make people walk across it works now

[humble cairn]

My summoned Fey hits pretty decently. I am a Wis maxed Ranger, Shillelagh baby!

[worn lagoon]

entangle's strong too

terrain spells are king in general

[humble cairn]

Nets are also very under rated.

I contribute a lot of restrained.

[paper portal]

yeah control is much more important than damage

[worn lagoon]

still, give lego bricks a try, you won't regret it

[humble cairn]

I asked my DM whether he would allow Conjure Barrage to be duplicated from my companion once I hit Beast Master 15 and he said yes, so .. can't wait til I can do that.

[worn lagoon]

conjure barrage is one of 24 ranger's better features

[humble cairn]

Pretty sure Ranger '14 had it too?

[paper portal]

ranger 14 had conjure airstrike too though

[humble cairn]

Oh they increased the damage.

[humble cairn]

But that one isn't a Self spell, so it can't be duplicated from the companion.

[paper portal]

true

[humble cairn]

Yeah I don't have a lot of partymates that push/pull.

[paper portal]

even on its own spike growth is fantastic

[green mirage]

well if we're doing low level play you aint getting it anyway

[paper portal]

yeah exactly

[humble cairn]

I just recently played a level 5 Lore Bard and it was awesome!

Hobgoblin Harper Agent, I packed a lot into the Help Action.

[worn lagoon]

not even one cleric or paladin?

[humble cairn]

One Paladin who just joined.

[worn lagoon]

ah, they can command

that's potentially 6d4 damage + however many oppurtunity attacks, an entire wasted opponent turn

[undone rain]

I really like divine favor, its a decent spell that i always pick up

[worn lagoon]

it sure is a spell

[paper portal]

that's true!

[tall forge]

Divine favor looks pretty strong

(2024)

[undone rain]

Its pretty good tbh for a level 1 spell

[tall forge]

2014, it certainly exists

[worn lagoon]

idk you could've blessed with this

[paper portal]

it's just hex but without a target and less damage

[pliant sapphire]

You can do both

[worn lagoon]

oh they at least removed concentration on it
thats nice, its not entirely useless maybe

[paper portal]

they're both concentration spells

[paper portal]

oh right i forgot

[worn lagoon]

much needed buff

[undone rain]

I certainly can stack damage with it, play a guardian aasimar, they get a racial ability to do more damage, stack that with divine favor and then smite

[flint ledge]

Well true strike also existed in 2014

[tall forge]

That is what i said, teah

[lyric viper]

@pure python Looking for group!

Best move into this channel, now.

[pure python]

Hey lich, I assume you are here for a while. Can you tell me how to look for players to play dnd with and if I do gather the player where we can play?

[cosmic roost]

Ready to play Dungeons & Dragons?

Visit #find-a-game for everything you need to start your search, including:

• Instructions for finding a game here on the server (including how to post in our #looking-for channels).
• Suggestions for finding a game outside of this server.
• Basic advice to help you in your hunt.

[lyric viper]

Getting a group together can be one of the first big hurdles for sure.

For online. I recommend looking out for newbie friendly games, oneshots (short games that last one session or so), and Adventure League (Organised play ⁠⁠al-general ), or westmarches (large servers where people run spontaneous games for players).

For in person, check out local gamestores, libraries and so on. Advertise a D&D game.

Or... kidnap some existing friends and run a quick oneshot for them, see how they like it >.>

[pure python]

I have tried but somehow they always escape.

[atomic kayak]

More chains

[pure python]

Nah I will just use more steel strings. They are much effective trust

[lyric viper]

Must have good Dexterity stats then. Def check out #find-a-game here (and other platforms) if considering online play. If can take a li'l bit to put together a forever group.
The above are all ways of meeting people quickly and playing with them, to see if you get along- think of it a little bit like speed dating. You want to know you all click before committing to a full game together for ages.

[pure python]

Thanks lich.

[undone rain]

Good morrow

[empty plover]

yo where u i tell ppl my ideas and like advertisments??

im trying to collect ppl to make like a multi month/yr camp to civilization

[lyric viper]

If you want players for a game check out #find-a-game

[glad arch]

Check out #find-a-game

[fast latch]

Can a Yuan-Ti blink?

I know snakes can’t, but humans can, and Yuan-Ti are part human part snake

[undone rain]

I forgot about those little lads, i should make one

[severe rampart]

Definitely, revamped my Warlock with a Snake Primordial as a patron using a Yuan Ti instead of an Eladrin

[empty plover]

u da goat man

[undone rain]

Ohhhh cool

[empty plover]

tysm

[severe rampart]

No I'm the snake man

[empty plover]

u da snake man

[flint ledge]

Up to the DM/campaign probably

[severe rampart]

Too bad poison damage is crap

[undone rain]

Reminds me of ninjago now, with all the serpentines

[round bay]

Hey people, I jst polymorphed to a Giant Ape

What if i jst crush my enemy? It has to deal damage, right? I'm big 💔

[undone rain]

Am a sneeeeek

[flint ledge]

I wonder how much damage someone could potentially do with a full poison build

[lyric viper]

Unfortunately it's one of the most resisted/immune damages.

[severe rampart]

not much, Poison Spray is nice though, d12

[flint ledge]

True that's pretty nice

[severe rampart]

if I were to play this character into a campaign I'd definitely lean more into collecting poisons from creatures and coating it in my weapons, or just eldritch blasting my way with flavor

[lyric viper]

Heck, Periapt of Proof against poison in 2014 didn't even need attunement. All other items that gave even resistance was, but that gave full immunity for nothing.
2024 at least gave it attunement, but it's still full immunity.

[severe rampart]

iirc there's something to bypass resistance, but not immunity

[flint ledge]

I mean you'd think there's some really good poison build that they felt the need to make so many enemies immune to it

[flint ledge]

But no it's buns...

[blissful ibex]

poisoner feat eats resistance IIRC

[severe rampart]

I'm pretty sure there are PCs that are immune to poison too, or at least resistant

[lyric viper]

Had to start giving ancient greens homebrew elemental bane to treat immunity as resistance and reistance as normal so on for them to be even a bit scary.

[blissful ibex]

several playable species are resistant to it by default

[lyric viper]

Just eat heroes feast for breakfast and bully all poison based dragons.

[atomic moat]

They should have a class of monsters vulnerable to poison to balance things out. Maybe insects since they have to breath through their skin.

[severe rampart]

lmao would you look at that, not even the unique species either, dwarves are resistant to being poisoned iirc?

[lyric viper]

yep!

[severe rampart]

yeah but realistically, those are never gonna be used 💔

[buoyant oar]

I have always felt that giving out blanket, resistances and immunities on a species level is a bit too much

[pure python]

Hey guys so what is this server for? Like just discussing what?

[severe rampart]

Discussing and finding games, yeah

[lyric viper]

Pretty much. We discuss D&D and it's various topics, and have a space for finding a game, but don't host games here.

[flint ledge]

I don't think any species has an immunity do they?

[lyric viper]

We are the official D&D discord, so also a good place for getting official news in the announcement channels.

[severe rampart]

yuan Ti is immune to poison no?

[flint ledge]

I don't think so no

[severe rampart]

ah, the poisoned condition, not poison

[flint ledge]

Ah in Volo's they do

[buoyant oar]

The original pure blood was immune to both the condition and the damage type

On top of the magic resistance they had

[flint ledge]

In Motm they're resistant to both

[flint ledge]

Magic resistance is WILD compared to some of the other species in those books imo

[buoyant oar]

I just think that there's a much better way to give species a flavor rather than having the damage of something being cut in half or giving them advantage on a saving throw.

I'd much rather those resistances or abilities come through either class features or backgrounds or feats. Because we can say that we're moving away from the one species is just better than all the others all we want. But if we still give them those kinds of things, those comparisons will inevitably continue.

[lapis sorrel]

Wow this is a cool place

[severe rampart]

I am worried for when my owlbear free storage runs out, would be a pain to re-organize everything

[still plover]

Check out the #channel-guide for a real overview of what goes on here. Folk talk about their characters, their worlds, share art and maps, discuss the lore, collaborate on homebrew and much more!

[flint ledge]

Like yuan ti get magic resistance, poison resistance and spellcasting and Minotaur get to make a BA unarmed Strike every Tuesday at 5:30

[severe rampart]

I'm already at the halfway point but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it

[still plover]

Protip: use folders to organise your resources. It's easier to clear the deck and do a batch upload than go through all your files one by one.

[empty plover]

does any1 even visit #find-a-game ?

[severe rampart]

a lot of people do

[still plover]

Yes, folk looking to advertise a game, community, or themselves as players. Posts are raised by a bot. Type

/looking

And pick the option you need. I believe you're looking for players, right? Select that, hit Send, and fill in the form.

You can even do that to see what the form looks like, cancel out and assemble your answers, and do /looking again when you're ready.

Remember you only get to raise one post in each of the looking channels per week, so make it a good one.

[crimson gulch]

It's not you just keep organized in your local files on your computer and delete what's not nessisary from owlbear

[empty plover]

thx man u da smith

[fallow lintel]

daps

[paper portal]

hi chat

what subclass would be the most broken on a different class

[severe rampart]

Hm... Battlemaster on a monk maybe?...

That's a tough question

[crystal latch]

Conjuration Sorc

DSS1 dip but we instead take Minor Conjuration

[brazen saddle]

What do you guys think is the best lvl 4 feat for a fighter in dnd

Is no one online

[delicate owl]

Idk, wait like 10 more minutes for a reasponse instead of 2s and you might get answers

[woven flint]

Depends completely on your build tbh

[brazen saddle]

My sig weapon is a Greta axe

[woven flint]

Great Weapon Master, perhaps

Or Slasher

[brazen saddle]

What does slasher do

[woven flint]

I think they're the same, but, 2014 or 2024 rules?

[brazen saddle]

I’ve been considering the great weapon master but the cost seems to be too great

[cobalt owl]

Great weapon master rules but does blow pretty hard if you miss, which is way more likely

[still plover]

#optimization would certainly have some opinions. Personally the regular ASI feels like a good pick, given fighter's additional feats.

[woven flint]

Ah, so, 2014 rules?

[cobalt owl]

Its very much an "all in"

And in 14 20 str is kinda mandatory to really get the most outta gwm imo

[brazen saddle]

What asi

[cobalt owl]

+2 to stats instead of feats

[brazen saddle]

So great weapon master or slasher

[paper portal]

great weapon master

its by far the best in 2014, if youre playing 5.5 something like mage slayer would give it competition

[brazen saddle]

Does mage slayer do more damage to casters

[paper portal]

no it lets you succeed on mental saves

i forget how often but i remember its very good

[brazen saddle]

Is the nerf on great weapon master a permanent thing

[pliant sapphire]

Once per short/long rest

[paper portal]

yeah unless you switch back to 2014 rules like a lot of people did

[brazen saddle]

Sp what happens in 2014 rules

[woven flint]

Art thou winging it?

[paper portal]

you can take a -5 penalty to your attack roll in exchange for +10 to damage

[paper portal]

always

[hidden spindle]

Nice.

I thought of a fun fact. That Clerics and Paladin's lost the ability to create Holy Water (without Tasha's Ceremony Spell)

[woven flint]

Mhhh, yes 🧐

[limber trail]

2024 rules doesn’t have a nerf in it - it removed the penalty and added another bonus in its place

[paper portal]

yea which overall is worse

[limber trail]

The player wasn’t asking about the quality of the feat in the two editions. They were asking if the -5 is permanent

[cobalt owl]

Eh, you hit more which does more damge

You consistently hit slightly less hard vs you hit less but way harder

[paper portal]

the maths has been done many times, old gwm was much better

[cobalt owl]

I haven't crunched the numbers but I'd believe that

[limber trail]

It varies and I don’t think it really is as simple as this one is always better than that one. But that’s a topic for the optimization channel which I made a concerted effort to avoid

[minor cargo]

Hey @turbid vessel @humble cairn @still plover - A few days ago I was talking about how I view D&D's genre as (my term) "colonialist fantasy".

Link here: #dnd-discussion message

Y'all reacted that you wanted to talk about it more in detail. Not sure if now is a good time or not. 👀 (Actually, this is one of those situations where a thread would actually be super helpful lol.)

[blissful bolt]

hello

[still plover]

Looks like I'm the only one online right now, but I can give a headline take: killing the Other and take their things is very much a default mode of play. I know the game is moving away from certain folks being always CE, but I'd like to see more. Let's have more conflict than combat.

[minor cargo]

Yeah, I definitely agree it's the default mode of play. What do you mean you want to see more CE, though? Like the game should be designed more around this default rather than move away from it? Not a judgemental or "set up" question or anything. I honestly just want to make sure I'm understanding.

[flint ledge]

Not the server for this I don't think

[tall forge]

I personally try to run more of a survival/trial based campaign instead of CE

My favorite thing to do is to put Dungeons in the world as something meant to be cleared

The loot being a reward

Maybe a god creates small pocket planes as tests and trials, if you die they get your soul

[still plover]

More movement away from treating certain folks as always the baddies. Anyone can be the opposition.

[thorn wedge]

What does ce mean here?

[limber trail]

chaotic evil

[tall forge]

I was guessing coloniast expansion

But thats my memory failing terribly

[limber trail]

But actually colonialist expansion makes more sense

[tall forge]

Lmao, it almost certainly was meant to be chaotic evil

But thats all good

[thorn wedge]

Amoral power-fantasy might be a better way of putting it imo. Colonialism has some other implications that I would argue arent really present in most DnD games. Theres definitely some where it is, but thats a different can of worms.

As for why many players just play like murder hobos, it’s a many faced problem. One of the issues is that a majority of DnD’s rules revolve around what you can do in combat. If you give a person a toolbox with only a hammer in it, you can expect things that shouldn’t be hammered to get hammered.

There’s also the issue of setting. Generally DnD doesn’t offer any real way for civilized society to keep super powerful adventurers in check. The dm usually has to come up with and improvise them. If there’s no in game reason not to just murder hobo, it becomes more likely, just like in real life.

I think the final big problem is running nuanced social conflict that doesn’t just fall apart at the first hurdle is really hard. It’s much easier to just slap a big monster on a grid and roll a loot table.

[tall forge]

Either way, the answer does lie in the basis of colonialism

People like easy answers to problems

Its just easier to say goblins are all evil creatures we gotta murder and take the stuff of

Personally i think that’s a lazy writing choice, but it’s also effective in getting your players to do stuff

[minor cargo]

Yeah, it's tough... There is a non-zero amount of community members in D&D who are just wildly loud bigots. The classic advice is of course, to ignore them. But I can empathize with the frustration of having to see this kind of stuff come up. Yeah, you can report and all that stuff and try to take away their platforms - but it's not really a satisfactory action IMO (especially because they rarely get deplatformed).

The next thing someone could do is try to convince them that they're wrong.

But that takes so much time and effort, and it's usually doesn't even make any difference unless you're already a trusted person. So... yeah. Not sure where I was going with this other than "I'm sorry. It sucks."

[limber trail]

I do agree that at its' core, the concept of dungeon delving and taking long lost treasures and artifacts from ancient tombs does have a lot of colonialism undertones. I would also say that it's not always a facet of the game that DMs engage with to the extent they used to, especially as the game continues to evolve

[tall forge]

One of the biggest questions also being- on what level is a sentient creature ALLOWED to be naturally evil?

[thorn wedge]

This too. The players are here to feel like they’re doing something good or memorable (usually). The easiest way to make that happen is give them someone unequivocally bad to fight, usually.

[tall forge]

Drow arent all evil, its a culture thing

Same with bugbears, goblins, etc

Thats where dnd is heading, somewhat

[woven flint]

In Menzobarrenzen ✨

[tall forge]

But what about beholders?

[limber trail]

I typically reserve the label of being biologically evil to mainly just Devils, Demons, Celestials, and other beings tied to the upper and lower planes, because they're in a way manifestations of the alignment system themselves

[tall forge]

What about Vampires?

[woven flint]

Beholders predisposed to being incredibly paranoid

[tall forge]

What about like, plenty of pretty evil sentient creatures

[limber trail]

But that's in my games and not necessarily even true for other campaigns or settings

[flint ledge]

Well not all vampires are willingly turned into them no?

[tall forge]

But thats sorta my point

Putting real life morals into dnd is kinda tough

Same as making real life connections to the underlying subtext

[thorn wedge]

I think many people come to dnd to escape real life moral quandaries too. Not all, but a fair chunk. People come here to be the hero with the moral high ground and do things in that light.

[tall forge]

It should prob be thought about, but sometimes i want my escapist fantasy game

[flint ledge]

Imo people who willingly Turm themselves into vampires would usually be evil but unwillingly most likely not

[rugged hawk]

Predisposed
Well yeah, they've got two simultaneous personalities that deliberately lie to each other.

[minor cargo]

Gotcha, this is what I thought you meant - glad I checked!

Yeah, if I can even extend that, I think D&D is moving even further away from "opposition is conquered through violence". The rules and this sentiment are a bit at odds with each other (to Dooterino's point that the majority of mechanics are centered around combat/violence), but I agree that I think this is the direction it's moving.

Sometimes we talk about 6E or whatever, and I think this is probably the next place D&D would try to emphasize. Would it warrant a new edition? Eh, not sure. But it is something that I think the game wants to cover, but does a poor job at the moment.

[sweet mica]

I saw the word vampires in chat, and now my brain is thinking about how I would love to play in a vampire themed game siigh… one day maybe

[tall forge]

Im running a vampire heavy game :)

Specifically killing them. Killing all of them

[limber trail]

I've got vampires joining the arena with all of the other types of baddies in my campaign shortly

[tall forge]

Bc my answer to the moral complexities of “is it ok to write an entire species as evil” is

Dont think about it, vampirism is a curse that makes you evil

[thorn wedge]

More rules and suggestions for social interaction and that side of the game would help. As would limiting spells like charm. It’s really hard to have convincing social problems when the party can just spell or violence their way through a problem much easier.

[tall forge]

Mind flayer type stuff

[limber trail]

I've got:

• Tons of Humanoids
• Demons
• Devils
• Celestials
• Dragons

All in some decently substantial capacity

[sweet mica]

I do love vampires, but I’m less the type to kill them and more fraternize with vampires for the plot

[tall forge]

I love my pure evil creatures with intelligence

[flint ledge]

I'm running an elemental focused game. Cause I think they haven't gotten enough love to be important

[limber trail]

And vampires joining the fray real soon

[sweet mica]

I love complicated NPCs… I want to work their brains more than kill for the sake of killing

[tall forge]

I do like complicated npcs, i just dont find vampires that complicated

Theyre parasites by nature

[hollow stone]

it is impeccably hard to avoid murdering people in DND.

[tall forge]

I mean more of morals in the sense of “is it ok to write an entire species to be biologically primed for evil”

The writers morals.

[hollow stone]

oh, yea that's hard

[flint ledge]

Reminds me of when one of my groups recently were about to fight goblins and got absolutely flabbergasted that they could speak common

[limber trail]

There are some interesting conflicts to be found in the concept of a creature that is a parasite, that recognizes itself as a parasite. An idea I always like is the vampire who wants to kill other vampires and believes their own existence to be a stain on the world.

[tall forge]

Absolutely, but that sorta makes the answer of vampires specifically real simple

They should not exist in a world

You want a morally complex parasite, Mind Flayers

[still plover]

I don't mind angels and devils. Cosmological constants, metaphysically wrapped around their own concepts. And still there's room for nuance, variations, exceptions.

[woven flint]

That one follower of Lathander, Jander Sunstar

[flint ledge]

I mean one could argue mosquitoes are parasites yet they serve a role too

[tall forge]

Not an argument, they are parasites

[limber trail]

That’s where I don’t consider vampires to be an all encompassing faction. Different characters are vampires, they have varying feelings on their own vampirism and the vampirism of their species. Some want to end vampires, some want to leave them alive. Conflict. Tons of positions a character can have on the issue

[tall forge]

But vampires are a very specific type of parasite that actively self destructs the original species, then themselves

[sweet mica]

In the games I run, I always have a very grey morality setting, and I avoid just creating enemies for the sake of “you get to just kill these guys” — I will humanize enemies even vampires. They’re bloodsuckers for sure, but they’ll do things out of love and even for protecting those that need it…

[hollow stone]

a way to make this even more fun is a vampire who sees the operations of their kind as corrupt, wicked, and parasitic, but also doesn't agree with genocide, and keeps searching for solutions to the blood thing and getting caught in the dilemma of trying to prevent a vampiric genocide and also not trying to side with people like Strahd

[woven flint]

He's an Elvish Vampire, but still follows Lathander because he retained his humanity after his undeath and seeks to kill other vampires

[thorn wedge]

I don’t really see a problem with it as long as they aren’t making real life parallels or arguing that it represents real life tbh. It’s when people start equating fiction and real life or trying to emulate fiction that it’s an issue.

[tall forge]

So a vampire turning a humanoid into a vampire is objectively an evil action

[limber trail]

Exactly, I think there’s so many fun perspectives a character can have for a campaign like this

[limber trail]

I have a vampire in a player backstory who turned their player while they were on deaths door, as a last ditch effort to preserve their life. Morally grey sure but that’s a (very niche) situation where there’s an argument of morality there

[tall forge]

Unlike mind flayers, which are an entirely new parasitic species completely seperate from humanoids

[woven flint]

Yeah, but being a vampire is also not typically a biological thing

[tall forge]

Yea, i mostly speak on the pure stance of logistics, its a negative action that will eventually cause problems

[woven flint]

Dhampir exists, but they don't have to FEED like Vampires do, they just have a mental compulsion to do so, but can indeed control it

[tall forge]

Dhampirs are bs

[woven flint]

They are, but that's just how it is

[tall forge]

I love alucard but that stuff is all bs

[woven flint]

Welcome to D&D

and fiction in general

[tall forge]

Its bs in the world of dnd too >:(

[limber trail]

I just use them conceptually as a playable Vampire race

[tall forge]

What do you mean youre HALF undead

[sweet mica]

That’s such a fun decision I love the conflict of a vampire wanting to preserve somebody’s life, and having to choose the vampire scenario for them… I hope your player enjoyed that story decision

[flint ledge]

Don't you need to do dark rituals to become a vampire outside of being bitten

[woven flint]

They're not half undead though, thats the thing

[minor cargo]

When this comes up, I like to also tack on that sometimes "making real life parallels" isn't a conscious choice. For example, if you give your Evil Fantasy Creature a long hooked nose and warts, you may not realize that this evokes a specific kind of imagery for some people - and that it might actually be rooted in racist depictions of their ethnic group (edit: when combined with other signifiers you might have included, like their clothes or language). It also doesn't mean you're some kind of bigot for having done that.

It's further complicated because having Evil Fantasy Creatures like this in a home game has way less impact than, say, WOTC publishing it in a book.

[tall forge]

Drow were considered an evil race. The dark skinned elves were considered the cruel and evil ones

[thorn wedge]

Assuming we had a sentient mosquito for a moment, and assuming the mosquito doesn’t have any biological dispositions to evil. You could be an ethical mosquito.

There’s been a lot of takes on the ethical non evil vampire as well. Ones that feed on animals, blood donations, etc. Being a parasite doesn’t make you evil or mean that any “good” person needs to kill you just bc you’re a parasite.

[paper portal]

what did gygax mean by this?

[tall forge]

Absolutely, but the main issue comes with turning others into vampires

Youre actively increasing a need for parasitism without any benefits other than personal gain

A mosquito cant turn you into a mosquito

[limber trail]

It’s been a ton of fun and I’m very keen for some Vampires to come into play and really start to test this PC

[tall forge]

And even if it did, it wouldnt be immoral if thats just how the species grew- its why mind flayers arent evil to me, just objectively different

And im not saying that vampires cant be good

[woven flint]

Illithids are a hivemind
There's very few that break free from it
But like.
If you're part of a hivemind and the main mind is evil.. you're... kinda evil?

[tall forge]

But the existence of a vampire can be categorized as an evil existence

[sweet mica]

Hmmm have you ever considered that it would just be cool to be a vampire? And just because something is in your nature, doesn’t mean all vampires are nurtured that way

[thorn wedge]

In most fantasy turning people is a choice made by the vampire. As long as it’s only choosing to turn people willingly, and the blood consumption remains ethical, Is that still evil? Maybe if the entire world decided to become vampires, but then it becomes a food source issues rather than a parasitism issue I think. Vampires killing people for blood isn’t really different from people killing people over a lack of food.

[flint ledge]

I mean the main mind is all about achieving the grand design

[tall forge]

Purely in the sense that it is a parasitic action that permanently damages the world/species the vampire comes from, yeah. I try to base morals on a sense of what fits in the biological imperative of the species

Most humanoids in dnd, and humans irl have the express interest to be social and kind to one another

Its better tho i suppose to move away from words like “morality” and go more into “negative” and “positive”

[woven flint]

Vampires can be kind and normal people too though?
Looks at Jander Sunstar again

[sweet mica]

I wish you all the best!! and god speed to your player who will be tested…

[woven flint]

Jander actively hates his vampirism, and when he feeds on others he doesn't try to change them or take more than the little that is needed.

I think the problem of Vampires isn't inherent evilness, but losing humanity typically when you become an undead in general

[limber trail]

They’ll have such a cool and normal time, nothing bad is gonna happen to them, they’ll be so fine

[flint ledge]

I mean morality and ethics becomes complicated in a world where there's flying eyeballs shooting lasers

[tall forge]

Its important on the writing side to me, as a dm

Ethical writing ig

[woven flint]

I think we can all agree that the true evil in D&D is Volo.

He's incredibly bigoted and his guides show as much

[tall forge]

So true

Lets get em

[flint ledge]

Leave my silly bard Impostor alone

[remote geyser]

anyone do camapaign?

[thorn wedge]

I think if we’re going so far as to say that unintended associations that other people make about your words are your responsibility, it would become almost impossible to communicate serious or complicated ideas morally. Anything you say that isn’t perfectly clear might be misinterpreted in a bad way and then that is on you morally. I think that does way more harm than good.

[minor cargo]

To maybe +1, I think it's important to think about as a DM so you're better prepared to present interesting challenges to players/characters. Like as a DM, I don't actually care about the answer to ethical questions (in general) just like I don't care about how someone might cross a chasm.

My main focus is to make sure the challenge is fun and/or satisfying.

[woven flint]

I mean, to be fair, Volo's guides are SUPPOSED to be false representations from an individual who has little to no experience with most species they write about.

[limber trail]

Volo haters rise up

That beautiful moment on Friday when we were all united in hatred….

[sweet mica]

I don’t know who Volo is because I play mostly homebrew games, but I will rise nonetheless

[woven flint]

A level 1 Wizard bum who Spreads misinformation in the realms

[limber trail]

He’s a deeply annoying little guy who needs to leave my pc and his party alone for their own good and also stop asking for money

[minor cargo]

Although I think it's a person's responsibility to be as sensitive as possible with their fiction, I'm by no means saying people have to be perfect like this. Like I said, just because someone makes an insensitive foible, it doesn't mean they're a bigot.

I do think good writers can learn and grow with time. And they should be open to feedback (which doesn't say anything about whether the feedback should be accepted wholesale or even if it's valid).

[still plover]

Check the listings in #looking-for-players for games that want people, read the details, respond as appropriate and cross your fingers.

Type /looking and select the option for #looking-for-dm to advertise yourself as a new player in search of a group. Be sure to include your regular availability!

There are other Discord servers where people gather for games. You can find them in #looking-for-community .

Aside from here, you could also try LFG areas in sites like Reddit, Roll20 or the D&D Beyond forums to get started.

[woven flint]

I still can't believe I gave him 1000 gold 😭

It was mostly for our expedition, though

[limber trail]

Tokii let’s forget Manshoon and Xanathar, let’s help Waterdeep the real way and kill a real enemy

[limber trail]

We did get 1000gp worth of value tbf

[sweet mica]

You can make him more annoying by asking people to pay him for his silence a walking AD, who goes away if you give him 12gp a month

[thorn wedge]

Why does it ipso facto damage the world? There are symbiotic parasites, and assuming the vampire is getting his blood morally, he’s doing no moral harm. It’s no more damaging than a person having a child, no? There are vampires who don’t follow these rules, but I’m mostly just saying, propagating parasitism doesn’t directly have to be evil.

[limber trail]

10 healing potions

[woven flint]

Thing is, I think killing Volo would have more negative effects than killing Xanathar and Manshoon tbh lol

[limber trail]

I just wanna try, we can revive him, I wanna see him die

[woven flint]

Between you and me, if we kill Xanathar I have an interesting plan to put in action

[limber trail]

Ooh, tell more?

[woven flint]

One of the things was if we kill him, we fearmonger his men into helping us find Manshoon

[limber trail]

I also will say, I can get us allies for that mission if we’re interested

Above table, Jarlaxle mentioned he would be willing to help us with our project in a private chat with Hokrun

[woven flint]

Too many big names in this campaign, I swear
Bigby and Mordenkainen are just gonna appear outta nowhere next lol

[limber trail]

We’ve stuck to the big three

I don’t know if Waterdeep even usually features all four groups though, or if that’s Ti being Ti

[hot marlin]

Just kill Jarlaxle.

[tall forge]

Creating an immortal life sucking creature out of a mortal one will eventually destroy the world

[hot marlin]

He has a lot of info, so kill him and then enslave his ghost

[limber trail]

He gave me a gun, I would die for that drow

[woven flint]

Jarlaxle already works with us anyway lol

[tall forge]

Parasitism has a cycle where it grows and dies, vampirism just grows

[limber trail]

He’s also one of my PC’s three friends who don’t actively live with him so

[tall forge]

Realistically vampires arent actually parasites

[limber trail]

He’s protecting our inn

[minor cargo]

Counterpoint. Romance him.
This sounds more fun, anyways. 🫦

[hot marlin]

Of course they aren't. A parasite is a living organism, vampires are undead. And parasites live inside or on another living organism

[thorn wedge]

Similar arguments could be made about the propagation of humanity. Eventually we are going to use all resources, assuming humanity doesn’t end first.

Creating more humans will eventually destroy the world.

[hot marlin]

Wait, there's another definition of parasitism that actually fits vampires...

"A predator that eats the prey in units less than one". Meaning, that it feeds on the prey but leaves it alive, allowing it to recover for next meal

[uncut zenith]

The closest thing to a “parasite-based” vampire I think I’ve ever seen in fiction is in The Strain, but that’s very different from D&D vampires

[hot marlin]

Wait, no. That would make me the parasite of the plants of my garden

[tall forge]

We arent immortal , we eventually die off as part of a natural life cycle

[timid current]

The Necroscope series has parasitic vampires. Sort of

[uncut zenith]

The Strain mostly just tried to bridge the gap between science and folklore in an overembellished way, but in D&D they’re just… undead

[tall forge]

Parasitism is the relationship between two organisms in which one species benefits and propagates itself by causing another harm

Living within or inside another is part of the definition iirc from my parasite research job

[hot marlin]

Yeah but there are multiple definitions. The one I cited was the one used by Edward Osborne Wilson, apparently an important entomologist

[tall forge]

Yeah but i speak on an ecological standpoint, parasitism is specifically the relationship between the two creatures

[hot marlin]

That is true

[minor cargo]

( 🤓 uhm achtually, some parasites engage with commensalism, where the host experiences no damage. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7149714/. /lh obviously we're talking about something specific here and this specific example doesn't add anything to our conversation.)

[tall forge]

Yep, but thats why i say parasitism is its own thing

A parasite is a creature who mainly uses parasitism to survive

[hot marlin]

If I remember correctly, which is arguable, I think the rule is that relationship between two species is symbiosis. And then there are multiple types of symbiosis.
Mutualism for when both parties benefit
Commensalism when one party benefits, the other neither benefits nor is harmed
Parasitism is when one benefits, the other is harmed
Amensalism is when one party does not benefit, and the other is harmed
Competition is when they are both harmed
Neutralism is when they neither benefit nor are harmed

[thorn wedge]

People as individuals, humanity as a whole persists. Also there’s nothing saying vampires can’t choose to die, or die through things other than old age or disease.

[tall forge]

A little wrong, but close enough (competition is a little tough)

[flint ledge]

What are we even actually discussing here? It's not like vampirism is natural even in dnd. The first vampires literally had to engage in dark magic to become vampires

[tall forge]

Im saying being a vampire is by nature, a negative force on the world

[thorn wedge]

Whether or not propagating a parasitic organism is de facto an evil act

[hot marlin]

So yeah if we use that standard, vampires are parasites. Wait, do we consider vampires to be a "species"? That can't be right

[naive cedar]

Vampires arent a species so the discussion regarding symbiosis doesnt apply

[tall forge]

That’s also the problem lol

[naive cedar]

Vampirism is much more analogous to a disease than a species

[tall forge]

Its a mix

[hot marlin]

A disease primarily harms the host. Vampires harm other people a lot more than they are harmed

[naive cedar]

The original legends about vampires in the real world likely came from both fears of the undead “coming back”, and certain terminal illnesses that, at the time, may have made people look more dead than alive

[thorn wedge]

Depends on what fiction you’re drawing from kinda. But even if it were a disease, we can just shift the parasitism label from the vampire to whatever pathogen causes the vampire.

[naive cedar]

I’m referring to something like rabies

[thorn wedge]

There can be symbiotic bacteria, viruses, etc.

[flint ledge]

Do you consider a zombie as part of a species?

[hot marlin]

Rabies is a lot worse for the rabid animal than for the people in the way of the rabid animal. First off, it doesn't necessarily cause frenzied hostility in everyone

[naive cedar]

That is true but rabies spread via bite

[hot marlin]

Well it's not a pathogen, it's a magical thingy

[tall forge]

The problem about vampires being a disease is that it doesn’t really fit in their ecological impact

Well, it does

Bc all diseases are parasites

[uncut zenith]

I wouldn’t even call it a disease, it’s a curse. A disease would imply there may or may not be some sort of scientific basis to it.

[thorn wedge]

I’m just saying that it doesn’t matter. If it is a pathogen, we’re discussing the pathogen, if it’s magic we’re discussing the thing that magic creates.

[hot marlin]

Do they really have that much of an ecological impact? They can leave their feeding victim alive without transforming them, the result would just be a few temporarily anemic people.

[naive cedar]

I mean at the end of the day vampirism is a fictional and magical condition, but I’m saying that it likely came about from people without access to modern scientific knowledge trying to explain terminal illnesses

[thorn wedge]

Either way the overall argument of whether or not it’s moral to allow such a thing to propagate is unchanged.

[tall forge]

Since their immortal, yes actually

They eventually need to consume too much

[humble cairn]

Hi sorry, I am busy seeing TV stars!

[hot marlin]

What do you mean?

[naive cedar]

Well that depends on the legend

Or the media

[hot marlin]

Their consumption of resource remains relatively constant. I don't think an older vampire needs to feed more than a young one

[tall forge]

Can’t ethically consume blood forever if theres only 3 humans left

Or if theres 8 trillion vampires who all want to live

[thorn wedge]

Assuming many more vampires are being created than destroyed. Also, the same arguments can still be made about humans, that we are consuming far too much and ruining our own environment.

[hot marlin]

If there are only 3 humans left, you consume elves.

[naive cedar]

Or gnomes

[hot marlin]

Or dwarves

[tall forge]

Humans return back resources to the ecosystem by dying

[naive cedar]

Or kobolds

[hot marlin]

If we're talking about that kind of "returning resources back", most of the resources you give back will be returned by your bodily waste, not by your corpse

[thorn wedge]

It’s all the things we do in between here and there that’s the issue. Vampires presumably do the same, just at a slower rate as well.

[flint ledge]

I think if there is only very few humanoids left then there is a very different problem than the vampires

[hot marlin]

But vampires are undead. In theory they neither defecate nor urinate nor sweat. Which means the blood they consume might just... Disappear. Like, be annihilated. In the physics definition of annihilation

Normally an organism gets energy by transforming something into something else. But undead? Where does that energy actually come from?

[naive cedar]

Well that’s where it becomes tricky to apply science to magical creatures

[thorn wedge]

Having too little food is an issue of planning for food resources. I’d argue that this is a problem both vampires and humans share. If vampires are evil for this, so are humans since there are currently many starving humans.

[hot marlin]

Oh wait, are we talking ecology or morality?

I may have misunderstood the conversation

[thorn wedge]

The original discussion was about whether or not vampires are de facto evil morally because they are parasites that don’t die.

[hot marlin]

That is completely irrelevant and nonsensical though?

Whether or not something is parasitic and immortal has no bearing on their morality

Mosquitoes have no alignment, even an immortal mosquito is still unaligned

[thorn wedge]

on the morality of someone allowing them to exist

[hot marlin]

Now whether or not they are harmful is another matter entirely

[tall forge]

Which is why i said earlier to move it to negative and positive

[thorn wedge]

Knowing what they are and will eventually do

[tall forge]

Negative being harmful to the planet/original species

[hot marlin]

But even "harmful", as a concept? Everything harms other things. There is not a single organism whose survival does not require harming another

[tall forge]

In ecology, it is! Mostly bc there are objectively bad plays that wipe out species

It is harmful for a disease to immediately kill its host most of the time

[hot marlin]

OK so strictly speaking, we are talking about ecological harm, meaning systemic, not towards individuals?

[tall forge]

I am, at least

Im not talking individually at least

[hot marlin]

Yeah it's fine, it's a good way to define the basics of this conversation.

[sweet mica]

Oh yeah that makes sense. As a whole it’s harmful, but individual basis is its own thing

[uncut zenith]

You know what I wish were more interesting in D&D than vampires? Werewolves

[sweet mica]

REAL

[hot marlin]

So then we must consider: Are vampires, taken as a group, so harmful ecologically/on a systemic level/holistically that it is immoral for an individual with the opportunity to kill a vampire not to take it? Is that the question posed here?

[naive cedar]

I wish werewolves got more attention in general

[uncut zenith]

I just wish they weren’t sapient

I like the classical vibe of werewolves who have no control over their actions when they shift

[naive cedar]

I want more writing about other types of were creatures

[flint ledge]

I mean dnd has a few

[hot marlin]

OK so if we consider this question like that, we would first need to define the level of systemic harm brought on by vampires, and compare it to their potential systemic benefits. Then we would need to consider which moral system we are using, and only then would we need to weigh those two together.

[sweet mica]

I have a friend who always complains about how there’s no good Dog races (like tabaxi, but dog)

[jolly canyon]

Dogbaxi

[naive cedar]

Yeah but they’re kind of ignored. Wererats have some stuff but they’re just, like, a different flavour of sewer bandits

[tall forge]

We would also have to consider a basis on vampires

[sweet mica]

I like your thinking….

[hot marlin]

Does anyone have any idea how often a vampire needs to feed and the quantity required to feel satiated? Without this information, the question is simply impossible to answer

[naive cedar]

I don’t think DND has a consistent answer to that question

[tall forge]

Do they change the mentals of a person, and do they require specific blood is the main points that are issues

Otherwise they are just problematic immortals

[flint ledge]

Technically what requirements does a creature need to have to get a version of lycanthropy after them

[thorn wedge]

Weremoonrat. He shifts most of the time into a stupid rat but sometimes he shifts into a genius rat.

[naive cedar]

In Baldur’s Gate 3, ||Astarion is chill with snacking on the player enough to make them “woozy”||. I’m not sure if any more official DND media defines it

[woven flint]

A vampire doesn't have to kill, control or alter an individual in any way to feed besides consuming their blood.
They could just wait for someone to fall asleep

Jander Sunstar, which I'll keep bringing up
Fed enough on people to be satiated but never killed them while feeding

[naive cedar]

Good example!

[flint ledge]

For example are there were dinos? There's werewyverns clearly

[tall forge]

If they require humanoid blood at all, it immediately becomes harmful to the humanoid species no matter what and causes it to be negative

If they get by on livestock, it doesnt matter that much

[woven flint]

My assumption as to WHY vampires need blood is probably because their state of undeath still leave them with living complexion and probably still need blood circulation or whatever

[keen zenith]

Hello guys

[sweet mica]

hello blab

[woven flint]

They can indeed feed on livestock

Jander Sunstar did mostly, but humanoid blood DOES work better for them.

[naive cedar]

There’s also a distinction between humanoid and livestock blood. They can live off of the latter in a weakened state

[hot marlin]

I don't get it. Are we moving from systemic ecological reasoning to anthropocentric reasoning?

[tall forge]

Being immortal is still negative by nature, and we prob shouldnt allow vampires to create more vampires

[hot marlin]

Because from a systemic ecological reasoning, feeding on people is no different than feeding on cattle. In fact it could be argued to be less harmful

[tall forge]

Yesnt, its about the limitation

[woven flint]

Most immortal beings that AREN'T undead in 5e typically don't HAVE to feed.

[sweet mica]

But consider this: maybe a vampire just needs immortal companionship :((

[tall forge]

If people blood is a requirement, its bad

[hot marlin]

Who is "we" here?

[tall forge]

Me. Im killing all vampires 😎

[woven flint]

Its not a requirement, but it does work better for them.

[tall forge]

If its cattle blood, vampires are still a negative but more so bc theyre immortal

[hot marlin]

I mean, at the end of the day, people will do what they want to do, and their moral justifications will only be created after the fact, if at all.

[rough basalt]

Ended up on dnd Twitter for 5 minutes. I need a lesser restoration cast on me.

[woven flint]

Vampires don't have to FEED enough on beings for them to DIE, though, unless they're out of control.

[hot marlin]

But thing is... They're not immortal. They're killed by sunlight, they're killed by running water, they're killed by vampire hunters.

[tall forge]

And also the whole undead thing but thats magic bs that I won’t even try to argue for or against

[hot marlin]

Most things in nature do not die of old age either.

They are simply unaging and... Nope, not even immune to diseases and poisons.

[tall forge]

So thats where we get into the fun and also depressing part of ecology

We only care about humans

[rough basalt]

It's hilarious to me that any time I engage with the community outside of here its always the same
"DnD dun have danger anymore, damn you Matt Mercer!"

[tall forge]

More specifically the human species

[woven flint]

Peach, no offense, but your only point for vampires being amoral and horrible are that
They're potentially immortal and typically feed on people.

[thorn wedge]

Vampires are definitely more difficult to balance ecologically than just humans, but it’s definitely possible to create a system that does so ethically.

[tall forge]

*negative, not immoral

[limber trail]

How bad can it possibly be

[rough basalt]

Just the usual "dnd dun have danger, it's Matt Mercers fault"

[tall forge]

Made a post a while ago specifically to move it toward that

[jolly canyon]

"Dnd don't have danger" meanwhile utzi the dm is on his what.. 70th pc kill of the year?

[thorn wedge]

Because it’s possible, it would mean that allowing vampires to exist and propagate is not always evil or negative, although it still could be situationally.

[rough basalt]

And that everything in dnd must be comfy and safe cause Matt Mercer and CR said so.

I swear, fans of Matt Mercer and CR are less obsessed with him and CR than miserable "dnd players"

[tall forge]

I wanna get into my reasoning but gotta do work stuff unfortunately so itll end up completely fractured

So sorry gotta dip from the convo

[woven flint]

My points as to why they're not inherently negative are

They don't have to kill things they feed on, they can feed on things that aren't human
And vampires can feed on different things depending on type, such as Psychic energy and Dreams.

[thorn wedge]

Mercer is a great dm, I get why people want to emulate him. I wish that people would emulate him a bit less and be more comfortable doing their own style, or not use him as a benchmark or standard other people need to live up to.

[uncut zenith]

What truly makes vampires “evil” doesn’t necessarily have to do with their feeding habits, it’s the lack of empathy for anything and the methods they historically go through to get what they want.

[woven flint]

An immortal parasite isn't bad so long as they're not completely ravaging a population and killing everything they see.
It's just a nuisance.
It depends on if that vampire can hold onto their humanity, which is rare from my understanding

[thorn wedge]

For our argument we were using vampires that don’t undergo psychological changes, and considering the group as a whole rather than individually.

[uncut zenith]

Their feeding habits are unorthodox, but what makes them evil is their tendency to become power hungry megalomaniacs who would rather enslave everybody around them than try to find an ethical way to coexist. Because by their very nature, they’re incapable of empathizing.

[woven flint]

That's the thing though
You CAN'T consider vampires as a group because there are vastly different people that become vampires to really put a scope on one specific kind.

ANY person can become a vampire.

[uncut zenith]

But there is often a psychological change too. In a lot of vampire media, when someone becomes a vampire, they’re internally dead too. It’s not just physically becoming undead that makes them scary, it’s the death of their humanity that makes them horrifying.

[hot marlin]

In fact, since vampires can feed without killing, one could argue that, on that regard, they are less environmentally harmful than... Well, anything

[woven flint]

You've got your Strahds, Your Kas' your Jander Sunstar's.
They're all functionally different types of people, the main similarity is Strahd and Kas were ALWAYS terrible people in life anyway!

[hot marlin]

There are some philosophers who would argue that the death of someone's humanity actually would make them more moral, not less

[thorn wedge]

Depends on the fiction you’re drawing from. If there are psychological changes that obligate them to act immorally, then they are de facto evil. But the ones we were considering in our argument do not have psychological changes.

[rough basalt]

Oh no by obsessed I mean they blame him for anything they don't like in dnd.

Bad roll? Matt Mercer must have been involved

[uncut zenith]

One could argue a vampire feeding on human blood is little to no different than humans who milk cows

[woven flint]

If your "in this case" vampires don't change psychologically, then there are going to be terrible people who are vampires and good people who are vampires.
It's up to THEM to decide how they effect others.

[woven flint]

Truthfully

Overall, losing a LITTLE bit of blood isn't harming anyone

[tall forge]

Still working but not true technically

[hot marlin]

That is true.

[hot marlin]

Replace the "anything" part with "a lot of things"

[tall forge]

Mosquitos

[uncut zenith]

Well losing a lot of blood definitely can be. So I guess it comes down to just how much self-control a vampire has.

[woven flint]

Yes, vampires are immortal, but that doesn't mean that they're overall negatively impactful just because of how they feed.

Their INFLUENCE really determines the negativity of their existence.

[hot marlin]

So we come back to this: Without knowing how much blood a vampire needs, we are at an impasse.

[crystal latch]

3.5e tells us how much iirc

[hot marlin]

Ah, if you do know please share

[woven flint]

Also, a vampire could just.. feed on multiple different people in a night if they REALLY needed to drink enough blood to kill someone

[keen zenith]

Is a D20 really even or higher chance for a number then a other?

[sweet mica]

I think we just gotta agree to disagree on whether vampires are bad, because it keeps going back and forth I'm just in favor that they add a little bit of spice to a campaign and I would personally love to play a vampire themed campaign that isn't just "Bleh blood death and violence", but rather getting to know how complicated a vampire could be as an individual

[tall forge]

I have no issues with vampires individually

(Lying)

[hot marlin]

A balanced die has equal chances to land on any given result. In the case of the D20, it's 5%.

[crystal latch]

3.5e info would be - feed once per day (energy drain), once per three days (blood drain) to avoid negative effects

[keen zenith]

Okay

[crystal latch]

Libris Mortis page 10

[hot marlin]

That does not seem too bad.

With a large enough prey pool, like a big city, it would be completely unnoticeable

[woven flint]

Indeed to what Star Said

I've also brought up Jander Sunstar a few times and he's incredibly fun because he's an example of how a vampire can try to cause as least harm as they can
He's also like.. painfully actually tragic because he's still a genuinely good person

[uncut zenith]

Also bringing it back to classic vampire folklore tho (which I understand doesn’t necessarily apply to D&D specifically), vampires are known for being creatures of overindulgence.

So in my mind they always go as far as they can

[hot marlin]

Jander Sunstar is also the star of the novel Vampire in the Mists, where the narration from his point of view calls a young girl given to him by Strahd as "ripe yet maidenly"

[hot marlin]

That would vary individually though

[woven flint]

Oh. That's.. weird.
But still!

[tall forge]

I think we gotta kill this guy tokii

[umbral girder]

Last I checked becoming a full vampire also rots all the good qualities about you too right?

[woven flint]

Kill who?

[tall forge]

This guy

[crystal latch]

It's entirely possible for a vampire to be a functioning member of society - that said, the transformation itself does come with an alignment shift in both 5e and 3.5e

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, there’s generally a death of their humanity

[woven flint]

Jander Sunstar?
I mean, he's an Elvish individual, I dunno what they mean in those terms 😭

[sweet mica]

guards , kill jander sunstar

[hot marlin]

It's just not a very good novel

[woven flint]

It's also probably not a good representation of said Character

[tall forge]

We at least will kill that version

All agree?

[hot marlin]

That opens up a whole other can of worms. What's a "good" quality as opposed to a "bad" or "neutral" quality?

[light cape]

hallo everyone

[glad arch]

Hello

[crystal latch]

There is of course a huge difference between "your alignment becomes evil" and "you literally always cause maximum destruction", vampires being evil doesn't mean they'll kill everyone

[hot marlin]

Considering that he was invented for that novel...

[light cape]

how you doing?

[sweet mica]

Hello oinkers and luuk and welcome to vampire hour (i think it's been 2 hours)

[tall forge]

Ok back to killing that guy

[light cape]

ohhh yay i love vampire hour

[glad arch]

Damn they still on that

[hot marlin]

Yes but spoilers.

[crystal latch]

Overall, being a vampire is awesome because dying sucks

[woven flint]

OH

[light cape]

fair

[umbral girder]

“Love turns into hungry obsession, while friendship becomes bitter jealousy.”
These are the examples it gives so that can give examples on what it means.

[sweet mica]

that's just me without meds

[woven flint]

Could also just.. use the Clone spell to achieve immortality
just make that BREAD

[umbral girder]

Yikes

[sweet mica]

please laugh

[crystal latch]

Vampirism has advantages over Clone

[woven flint]

Sure, I guess

[tall forge]

laugh track

[crystal latch]

Like regenerating passively

Or creating spawn

[glad arch]

Damn wizards trying to cheat death in the 30th way

[woven flint]

It's more concerning than it is funny 😔
I hope you're doing alright

[hot marlin]

I can name a dozen people for whom vampirism would change nothing, then.

[umbral girder]

There is likely other books with stuff but I’m a tad busy to look it up now

[woven flint]

Yeah, like, I already eat people
Why do I need to be a vampire?

[tall forge]

My homebrew world , i make it so specifically a vampires most shameful traits are expanded on

Basically ego death

[crystal latch]

Vampirism is cool but there are also other cool paths worth considering like lichdom

[tall forge]

But anything that changes my personality is a no

[hot marlin]

You joke but... We kinda do eat people.

[woven flint]

If my immortality comes at the cost of mass suffering, I think I'd rather remain mortal.

[umbral girder]

Or not becoming immortal and just move on

[woven flint]

Who said I was joking?

[crystal latch]

Not being immortal is cringe

[hot marlin]

Whenever we buy food grown by people who are barely better than slaves, starving and exploited, some of whom end up dying from those conditions, are we not feeding on their death?

[tall forge]

You’re crying (get it)

[woven flint]

Eating millions of souls just to be immortal is.. also kinda cringe as there are other ways to get it lol

[umbral girder]

Especially since people actually know for a fact there is an after life too that is judging you.

[hot marlin]

If a product we buy is only available because a war opened up the trade, are we not feeding on the death of everyone who died in that war?

[crystal latch]

Afterlives in the D&D multiverse tend to suck a lot

[hot marlin]

In a sense, we are already cannibals.

[woven flint]

Just be a follower of Lathander, doy

[wooden reef]

Any experienced dnd masters or players? I need some feedback on the dnd project, could you have a look to see if it's a good or a bad idea???? I'm 100% new this will be my first time attending a D&D I got excited after helping my girlypop with the D&D project, making me want to join kind of as a side dish character!! O_O

[woven flint]

I actually dislike Lathander

[sweet mica]

that's why i make the afterlife a second life in the celestial realm, and then once they die in said afterlife (can be a choice), they rebirth back into the material realm

[crystal latch]

At the bare minimum, you're losing every single class feature you gained, all your power etc., to become an insignificant being wandering an Outer Plane that could at any point just be blown up by any planar traveler who encounters you

The afterlife in D&D is a fail state, in past editions you would also literally merge with your deity or the plane eventually
You're decomposing, that's all it is

[tall forge]

Remember the wall of death and torture for atheists?

[crystal latch]

Good and evil deities are two sides of the same coin, the only way to win is apotheosis beyond mortality

[tall forge]

Oh myrkul, you silly guy

[wooden reef]

Anybody? ;(

[woven flint]

To be fair, in a realm where deities give some people power and their existence is widely proven...
Being an Athiest would be the dumbest thing ever in the FR

[tall forge]

Absolutely, but also i dont want to crucify flat earthers

[hot marlin]

Being an atheist does not necessarily mean denying the gods exist

[woven flint]

Not a lot of my characters actively worship God's, but they don't deny their existence

[rugged hawk]

Atheism in FR isn't about not believing gods exist. It's in acknowledging them or not as beings worthy of worship.

[tall forge]

In forgotten realms lore, to the torture wall you go 😎

[hot marlin]

In Ancient Greece, for example, it was understood as being someone who had contempt or disregarded the gods, participating in no religious festival

[crystal latch]

In order to go to the wall you need to be rejected by all deities, so that nobody collects your soul when you die

[woven flint]

Ilmater, the GOAT coming to accept me because nobody else would

Just hope Ghaunadaur doesn't accept your soul first 😔

[rugged hawk]

There's rules even gods have to follow about who they can claim

[tall forge]

It was technically created by Myrkul for anyone “who claimed no patron god”

[river wagon]

If I was a tortle barb with a con and dex of 18 what is my armour class?

[rugged hawk]

Ilmater or evil gods can't just be like 'He's for the wall? I'm taking him, even though I've got no claim'

[crystal latch]

Notably, demons do tend to rip souls out of the wall sometimes and run off with them

[woven flint]

Because it doesn't stack with your natural defense, you can choose one over the other

[river wagon]

Damn

[crystal latch]

And you can make pacts with devils while on the Fugue Plane

[rugged hawk]

Notably, there's an entire rebellion movement by goodly forces dedicated to that, as well.

[minor cargo]

Sorry, I got pulled into a meeting. Not sure if the conversation is still here, but in case it helps, Libris Morits from 3.5E (Book of the Dead) has specific rules on this.

Vampires are diet dependent (meaning they have to feed to remain mobile; some undead like zombies and mummies exist purely on negative energy). Unless they feed, their link to the Negative Energy Plane grows weaker until they become immobile or lose their abilities. Undead cannot be starved to "destruction". The book says most diet undead can go 3d6 months without feeding before losing all mobility.

Hunger, however, is also listed. This sidebar says after 3 days for diet dependent undead (like vampires), they start making "will saves" (Wisdom saves). If the undead fails the save, they take wisdom damage and when reduced to zero, typically goes into a frenzy (unable to use judgement).

This is on Page 10 of the book itself.

[rugged hawk]

Ah, the good ol' Libris Mortis, one of my favorite tomes.

[woven flint]

Hello, newcomer, would you like to go on the wall of pain death and torture with me?

It's just a bunch of wizards casting
"FULL BODY WAX!!!" Over and over again

[tall forge]

That’s not true

[woven flint]

It is now!

[tall forge]

Half of them cast that, the other cast “HAIR GROWTH”

[woven flint]

Ah, yes!

[tall forge]

Its my night job tokii, gotta get it right

[woven flint]

Sorry, my princess, won't happen again /silly

[tall forge]

To the wall you go

[woven flint]

I'm already there, waiting for you 🧐

[tall forge]

I already pledged myself to the bestest of gods

Shar

[sweet mica]

what on earth is going on......

[tall forge]

This random lady with a weird name really sold her goddess to me and im convinced this is a good investment

[crystal latch]

Shar might not be the greatest deity, but she's an opposing force to Mystra so I support her

[woven flint]

Anyone that hates Mystra is a good person in my books

[tall forge]

Ive said it before, ill say it again

I feel mildly bad for mystra

[woven flint]

I'm asking Ti to kick you from his server even though I'm the one who asked to invite you there in the first place

[tall forge]

LET ME EXPLAIN

[jolly canyon]

Isn't there like a farming God? Can I just choose that one instead of shar or mystra

[woven flint]

You can choose ANY Deity

[tall forge]

I feel bad specifically for Midnight, the mystra before the current mystra

[crystal latch]

Shar backed Netheril 2.0, I like the Netherese

[woven flint]

Oh, the actually based one?

[tall forge]

The current mystra is an amalgamation of mystras that midnight created bc she knew shed die

[tall forge]

Yeah

And i feel bad for the midnight parts of that amalgamation

[woven flint]

I consider Mystra and Midnight two incredibly different beings still

Midnight is incredibly tragic
While
Mystra is incredibly SHIT

[tall forge]

I blame mystrl for all of mystras shortcomings

Mystrl was also incredibly shit

And the mystra after that sucked

And midnights tragic and sad

[woven flint]

Mystrl.. the Wizard god that's head over heels for Mystra?

[tall forge]

And current mystra sucks but like, theyre made of 2 shitty versions of themselves

[crystal latch]

Mystryl was terrible

Karsus did nothing wrong

[hot marlin]

What exactly did current Mystra do to be considered to "suck"?

[woven flint]

Being Mystra 🔥

[tall forge]

Current mystra embodies the flaws of all previous mystras

So, tldr she grooms gale

[crystal latch]

Daurgothoth is a potential Really Big Problem that she's actively cultivating
Sure, it fits her portfolio, but that's still a huge threat

[woven flint]

That too
Daurgothoth is a threat to EVERYONE but she favors him because of his Devotion to magic, yeah?

[crystal latch]

Also upholding the ban on 10th+ level spells is dumb and petty

Especially since epic spells exist anyway

[tall forge]

Its debatable whether or not thats a good idea

Theres also some things you could say about original mystra, specifically that some sources

Make her out to literally be a child

[umbral girder]

Previous Mystra’s were more neutral than good right?

[tall forge]

But i dont really know if that child was mystras literal reincarnation or just a child who became mystra

[woven flint]

Honestly?

Mystras children are typically way better people than her as well lol

[umbral girder]

Alustriel doing her best

I think she was one of the earliest people to invite Orcs into polite society even during their war with them.

[rough basalt]

Karsus really ruined everything

[tall forge]

If mystra 2 was infact just a child who became a god, i feel mildly bad

But she was infact the worst mystra

[umbral girder]

I am amused Alustriel did a Tokyo drift on a bunch of trolls with a flaming chariot tho.