dnd-discussion

[rough basalt]

It is most definitely not a nerf

[lost ice]

bruh

[valid geyser]

yeah two weapon fighting got buffed significantly

[echo meteor]

wait, oh its both attacks with 1 action

[humble cairn]

Light Weapon property: Allows anyone who makes an attack with one of these weapons to use a Bonus Action to make an attack with another such weapon. There's no such thing as an "offhand" attack, this can be done with the same hand, as long as it's a different weapon.
Nick Mastery: Allows that previous attack to be made as part of the same Action instead of the Bonus Action.
Dual Wielder: Triggers from the Light weapon property but allows a different and separate Bonus Action attack with a weapon that doesn't have to be Light as long as it isn't Two Handed.

There is value in taking both because you can get two extra attacks out of it instead of one.

[lost ice]

it changed the target audience, it used to be utilized by Str characters with 2 longswords and etc.
now it is utilized by dex light weapon users

[valid geyser]

yeah nick frees up a bonus action, which dual wielding lets you make one more attack if you have that bonus action still

so it actually lets classes that might want to use their BA on other things to consistently get value out of it

[echo meteor]

so can you use nick to attack with main/off

[rough basalt]

Hell a strength user could use it too if they wanted.

[south terrace]

I hate when my motivation for a character I’m making disappear’s. I think I tried to do to much art wise and burnt myself out really quickly.

[valid geyser]

also off-hand doesnt exist. thats not a rule

[echo meteor]

then you use bonus to attack with off?

[rough basalt]

Since nick melees have finesse

[echo meteor]

you used to be able to make an attack then bonus attack with light

u can’t do that anymore?

[humble cairn]

Yes, I made a 22 Str Paladin who used Nick weapons.

[valid geyser]

you could, but the rule was never about main or off hand

[lost ice]

yeah it's technically possible but not effective on any build

[humble cairn]

This is how it works now: #dnd-discussion message

[exotic sinew]

How do you get 2 extra attacks out of it??

I am not trying to over complicate things but I want to be prepared for when we reach level 4 so I know what I should be taking.

I am tossing up between dual wielder and piercer cause shortsword and bow does piercing.

I am also tossing up with my fighting style archer or two weapon fighting.

[humble cairn]

I dunno, I found it pretty effective on my Paladin.

[humble cairn]

You get to add an extra attack with Nick, which becomes part of your Action. If you have dual wielder you can then use your Bonus Action to attack as well. That's two more attacks than standard.

[echo meteor]

could u give me the actual thing in the phb instead of paraphrasing?

[lost ice]

at that point if you're not multiclassing you could just go dex paladin and have good AC and dex save are more important than str saves

[rough basalt]

Reminds me I wanna do a paladin that uses a shortsword and dagger then just pulls out a flail for the dual wielder BA attack.

[humble cairn]

Heavy Armor and a Shield gave me pretty good AC.

[lost ice]

the plot twist weapon juggler

[delicate owl]

When they said it triggers from the light weapon property, they meant that it requires you to use a weapon with the light property, but isnt your light property attack. So its extra because it doesnt replace that attack, just adds onto it.

So attack, nick attack (light weapon property used here in the attack action), bonus action dual wielder attack (is not the light weapon property attack, but is allowed if you use a light weapon during your attack action)

[humble cairn]

And then I used all my Nick stuff to throw light hammers and Tridents.

[silk hare]

so like, how about u search it up, u have the key words now

[exotic sinew]

But I would already be able to make one of those attacks without the dual wielder feat anyway or if I had 2 short swords I can still make an attack with a bonus action. So it’s just 1 extra attack or am I missing something.

[lost ice]

how do you use dual wileder while holding a shield
juggling?

[echo meteor]

can’t find it

[humble cairn]

Thrown weapons.

[humble cairn]

Oh also my Paladin used Nick, but not Dual Wielder, because I wanted to Smite.

[rough basalt]

Windmilling that stuff lol

[delicate owl]

As stated above it is not the light weapon property attack, it just requires you to use a light weapon to attack with your attack action. It is a special ba attack given if you do that.

[humble cairn]

Throw your weapon and your hand is free to .. throw another one.

[lost ice]

I hope you carry a big bag of daggers then

or javelins or any other thrown weapon

[echo meteor]

bro i was right about light weapon

Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative

the heck yall on about

[exotic sinew]

So it’s one extra attack then not 2?

[lost ice]

bro you're lost in the plot

[exotic sinew]

I can attack short swords, nick on short swords attack with scimitar, bonus action attack with dual wielder because I used nick.

[lost ice]

I think it's easier for you to state the weapons you're using on what class and then you'll be given the answer that's applicable for your case

[humble cairn]

A please might be nice for the work you're asking me to do.
Light Weapon Property
Nick Mastery
Dual Wielder Feat

[valid geyser]

shortsword does not have nick so youd use the scimitar first but yes

[humble cairn]

What do you think you're being right about?

[exotic sinew]

Short sword, scimitar and long bow on a ranger. I am starting at level 1 but want to be prepared for the future as vault tec would say

[lost ice]

it's not stated which weapon has to have nick, if you're attacking with a shortsword you can do the nick attack because the scimitar has nick

[valid geyser]

you are right with that

i was under the impression that the attack had to be with the nick weapon to activate the masteru

[echo meteor]

so u can make 3 attacks with dual weapon feat

[humble cairn]

Having both Nick Mastery and Dual wielder would give you two extra attacks over standard.

[echo meteor]

you make 3 attacks total

[rough basalt]

Basically at level 4 with a shortsword and scimitar
You
Attack action shortsword + scimitar
That's one extra attack
Then BA dual wielder feat attack with the shortsword again, that's a second extra attack.

[exotic sinew]

Huh 🤔 your nick attack is made as part of the same action of your attack action rather than as a bonus action. Short swords has vex which then give advantage to the scimitar attack on the same attack action due to nick it doesn’t need to use the bonus action so I can cast hunters mark with the bonus action instead

[rough basalt]

Or obviously you can draw any weapon that's not a two handed weapon for the BA attack.

[echo meteor]

you dealt damage 3x

[humble cairn]

Yes

[valid geyser]

you can only use one weapon mastery property in a turn

[lost ice]

I'll only add that this assumes you pick the scimitar as the weapon you have mastery with and can use its nick

[humble cairn]

No?

[exotic sinew]

Where does it say that

[valid geyser]

is that not true? i was under the impression that was the case

[humble cairn]

It's incorrect, please ignore.

[rough basalt]

Naturally, it's just an example.

[rough basalt]

No, some masteries have a once per turn effect tho

[valid geyser]

probably what i was thinking of then

[exotic sinew]

Okay so I should be taking two weapon fighting over archer then as my fighting style

So I can add my Dex modifier to the damage

[humble cairn]

I mean, is that the way you want your character to fight?

[lost ice]

depends whether you want to specialize in 2 weapon fighting or being an archer

[limber trail]

what weapon are you using in combat?

[humble cairn]

Your fighting style choice is a decision about what you want to do. Playing an Archer and playing dual weapons wielder are both good.'

[lost ice]

fyi two weapon fighting works both on nick attack from light property and bonus attack from dual wielder feat

[echo meteor]

so 3 attack on a single turn

[lost ice]

at level 4, yes

with ranger's extra attack that's 4 at lvl 5

[exotic sinew]

Well I am playing a ranger. In the party we have artificer, paladin, barbarian, sorcerer, rogue and me. So I was thinking of mainly using me longbow but after having conversations in here it seems as though using my shortsword and scimitar would be more effective

[humble cairn]

If you want to capitalize on Hunter's Mark, the more attacks the better. But you don't have to use Hunter's Mark that much if you don't want to. I don't use it very often at all on my Beast Master.

[echo meteor]

they made this so much more complicated

[humble cairn]

Both are good. For different reasons.

[echo meteor]

i do you make 2 attack rolls for one attack action with nick?

[lost ice]

yes but dual wielding used to be quite weak

[limber trail]

why would you not

[feral fulcrum]

It's not really that complicated at all IMO.

[echo meteor]

it was good on rogues that dgaf as long that they got 1 hit in for that sneak attack

[feral fulcrum]

Yes. Nick gives you an extra attack on your attack action. Which means you swing your sword twice. This calls for two attack rolls.

[lost ice]

it wasn't becasue a rogue wants to use their BA on cunning action or steady aim

now they get both

[exotic sinew]

Oh cause we are doing wild beyond the witchlight and I am playing a harengon I have already got planned that I will be going down the fey wanderer subclass I know it’s not as fancy as the others but I thought it was fitting.

[humble cairn]

I dunno what you mean Fey Wanderer is plenty fancy.

[lost ice]

I think it's quite fancy

[echo meteor]

the rogue attacks with main, and if it hits.. the rogue can use BA for other stuff… if it didn’t hit, rogue can try again with ba

[feral fulcrum]

I do think by the time you get access to SUmmon Fey it's kind of useless though.

[echo meteor]

with nick, rogue gets both

[humble cairn]

But that doesn't tell me anything about whether or not you want to wield two melee weapons or be an archer. Again both are good. You decide.

[lost ice]

and they can't disengage anymore and they die

[echo meteor]

most dms aren’t that brutal

[lost ice]

and is still a weak class offensively
rogue is a class made for exploration and social encounters

[limber trail]

this isn't DMing this is the mechanics of the game - you need the bonus action to disengage, if you don't disengage you're getting attacked

[echo meteor]

that’s if the dm decides to target the rogue with every attack

[humble cairn]

Rogues can also sacrifice Sneak Attack dice to Withdraw.

[minor cargo]

Unless your chad paladin already provoked all of your enemies opportunity attacks earlier that round.

[feral fulcrum]

Which is you're shiving people in the ribs and staying there, you probably are getting attacked.

[humble cairn]

I don't. I just started using Summon Fey on my Ranger, it's great to Charm tank.

[limber trail]

generally yeah if you're in the frontline of a fight and have low HP/AC, and just hit a guy for a big damage hit, you are getting targeted

[exotic sinew]

I don’t know I just want to be useful lol. I am newer to dnd and well clearly newer to rangers and I just don’t want to let anyone down in combats by not being efficient with my turn and kit.

I had in my head that a ranger was only an archer cause a lot of the photos are of them being an archer but then after hearing that I can use my melee weapons like a beyblade it did sound kinda cool 😎. But again I just don’t know what is “most efficient” for my Ranger to be doing when it comes to combat cause also other than our paladin I am the only other person with a healing spell

[lost ice]

don't fret, at levels 1-5 a ranger is the mvp class

[humble cairn]

Rangers can be good at both archery and melee. You won't be pulling the team down going either way. It's more important you pick something you will have fun with.

[lost ice]

you have healing, you have melee, you have range
whatever you do you'll be effective at that level

[limber trail]

the way you as a player avoid getting targeted is by being inconvenient to target

[wanton sorrel]

get more healers x'D

[humble cairn]

One thing you have over other weapon users is some very nice Control spells. I use Entangle quite often on my Ranger, to good effect.

[lost ice]

and with free castings of Hunter's mark your damage is crazy at that point

[humble cairn]

My combat routine for my Ranger is to use a good Concentration spell on turn 1, then look for what else is the most useful thing to do with my Action the rest of the time, if nothing else presents itself attack an enemy.

[exotic sinew]

My spells I have chosen at the moment is cure wounds and ensnaring strike.

[humble cairn]

Are you level 1?

[wanton sorrel]

ranger.... the most overpower dps... the range can go to more than 60 ft of range.

[exotic sinew]

Yea

[lost ice]

very nice

[humble cairn]

Super don't worry about stuff, then. You learn as you go and starting at level 1 is a great way to learn the class. Actual play experience is worth like at least double all the advice we could give you.

[limber trail]

(plenty of martials can operate further than 60ft with a longbow)

[wanton sorrel]

true

[humble cairn]

2024?

[exotic sinew]

Okie dokie. I just stress a lot and I worry that I am going to let people down

[exotic sinew]

Yes and because it’s at the games store it’s under the banner of “adventures league” so it is completely rules as written other than the fact my dm is pretty cool and is adding extra combat encounters to the wild beyond the witchlight cause there are some people at the table that really like combat so to keep them engaged as well he has done that.

[humble cairn]

One thing for a future Fey Wanderer, you could potentially end up with the best social skills in your group if you do it right. If you wanted to lean in that direction I would say put proficiency in the social skills you like.

[humble cairn]

Ok well that's another reason not to worry so much. 2024 Rangers get to swap out one spell per Long Rest, so if you find you don't use a spell very often or don't like it, you won't be stuck with it.

[exotic sinew]

With Ranger being my class the proficiency options don’t have any charisma stuff in there and I have chosen wayfarer as my background so yeaa no charisma proficiencies until level 3

[feral fulcrum]

YOur background can give profficinies as well.

[exotic sinew]

Wayfarer gives insight and stealth

[humble cairn]

Not Wayfarer

Well you can get one at level 3, which is enhanced by the subclass, and then at level 9 you can even put Expertise in it if you want.

[feral fulcrum]

Out Bard the Bards.

[exotic sinew]

Alright thank you all so much for the help I am going to try and get some sleep before my doctors appointment today ☺️☺️☺️

[hearty bay]

What was 4th edition like, for martials?

[wanton sorrel]

shrugs never played 4th edition

[hearty bay]

I've heard someone saying they had over the top abilities

And I really like the idea of having superpowers

Without having to play a flavor of wizard

[wanton sorrel]

sounds like homebrew material

[burnt valley]

You can reflavor Wizard as a different class entirely

[silk hare]

I mean u can still very much have "super powers" as a martial in 5E, they are just less powerful superpowers compared to the other superpowered guys

[burnt valley]

But for real though, 5e is not the ttrpg for that kind of fantasy as its biased against martials

[lost ice]

they are called wizards of the coast for a reason

[worn lagoon]

larian would need to start calling itself sorcerers of the coast

[amber echo]

cant be a good rogue on combat?

[timid current]

4e was wonderful for martials. It was no more over the top for them than it was comfortable casters

[lost ice]

without a reliable 2nd sneak attack per round like with sentinel feat or zhentarim tactics the math doesn't check out

[silk hare]

depends on your definition of "good"

better than a toddler throwing rocks? sure

better than any spellcaster and a lot of other classes (/most)? probably not

at least if you are talking damage

[lost ice]

in combat a good martial means solid single target dpr and without a proper build base rogue is not that

[atomic kayak]

Rogues are quite good in combat

[timid current]

Rogues are great in combat

[wanton sorrel]

rogues are best at backstabbing

[silk hare]

again depends on what you want, they CAN be good, just depends on what you define that "good" to be

[hearty bay]

Well, it is indeed wizards of the coast

[crimson gulch]

Rogues are great because the combine great damage with amazing evasion and mobility

[lost ice]

the only thing a rogue is good at in combat is dex saves, positioning and maube survival depending on how one rules hiding
dpr-wise they are a wet blanket

[naive cedar]

Rogues shine in skill checks but theyre good in combat

[hearty bay]

But from what I see, 4e really allowed martials to go wild

Much similarly to how wizards go wild

[valid geyser]

its average

[atomic kayak]

Sneak attack is not pathetic lol. I just think your baseline metric isnt tuned to the average of the system

[minor cargo]

To echo the above, I personally wouldn't call the abilities "over the top". But 4E generally gave martials a lot more flexibility in what they could do in a fight. A lot of people refer to 4E as being more "tactical", so Fighters (for example) have a lot of abilities ("powers") that allow them to move around and move others (enemies and allies) around.

Edit: Yeah, there was an element of "go wild" just due to 4E's nature. Daily powers can be really silly and fun!

[lost ice]

20th level rogue dpr is average compared to a 12th level party

[limber trail]

My rogue player is one of the most effective combatants in the party

[atomic kayak]

Its not. Its also very consistent compared to... basically every other class lol

[limber trail]

Consistently dealing good damage to enemies who would otherwise avoid that same damage

[naive cedar]

Also Dex is one of the most important abilities in the game and rogues have high dex

[hearty bay]

Over the top for me would be more of a fantasy thing than say, a balance thing, like being able to fly in slowmo as a monk. I wanna break trees with spit as a barbarian, or at least do feats that feel inhuman

[lost ice]

and as ive stated, their dex focus is the best thing about them in combat

[naive cedar]

monk with matrix bullet time ability

[wanton sorrel]

any class can be good or bad... it all truly depends on the dice roll.

[hearty bay]

Since the top end for casters is wish, martials getting to do nearly anything they want in the late game should be somewhat fair

[lost ice]

and they are the best martial out of combat

[naive cedar]

Yeah like I said rogues really shine out of combat

[lost ice]

I can additionaly complement that their crit is the best becasue they use dice instead of static modifiers

[valid geyser]

i think a rogue is gonna be doing the same numbers at its peak as like
a barbarian would, a lot more if it gets off an opportunity attack

[amber echo]

i ever see people using ranged weapon with rogue but i need make a rogue qwith a melee weapons

[lost ice]

a rogue needs a consistant OA to be good

without that an average barbarian deals way more damage with rage damage and feats like gwm or pam than rogue

[valid geyser]

at some levels maybe

[amber echo]

rogue with 2 scimitars

[valid geyser]

like yes i do think rogue is the least great martial but it's still fine

[amber echo]

guys

is possible a rogue learn a fihgting style?

[karmic pendant]

Rogues kinda need another martial in the party to do really well if they're melee

[amber echo]

without multiclass

maybe a racial or feat

[karmic pendant]

It should be possible to get fighting styles from ASI

[valid geyser]

you can just take fighting styles as a feat now

[amber echo]

Does that human character that lets you choose a feat at the beginning still exist?

[halcyon bison]

Only from 2014's fighting initiate feat
In 2024, the fighting style feats have a prerequisite that you must already have the sighting style feature to take them

Your DM might not allow you to use the 2014 feat

[lost ice]

as part of these sad armor training feats

[amber echo]

I was thinking of creating a rogue that uses the throw weapon feat to gain +2 damage on knife rolls. But I didn't want to have to multiclass for that.

And don't even wait until level 4 to get that feat.

[limber trail]

Are you playing with the 2014 or 2024 rules?

in 2014, they do still exist. In 2024, you can take an extra origin feat, but that won't help you

[jovial shadow]

If you are talking about the Fighting Style Feats, you have to MC, since they are only offered to true melee classes

[tawdry sentinel]

With bracer of flying daggers. Which is a rare item so that's it's own kettle of fish. A thief rogue puts out pretty reasonable damage.

Then there's the whole BA spell scroll a true strike. Ready action actually true strike. Which feels a bit power gamey.

[woven flint]

Vicious Scimitar, +3 Hand Crossbow, Bracers of Flying Daggers
That's my Thief Rogues current set up

His feats are
Skulker, Crossbow Expert, Skill Expert, Sharpshooter and Lucky

[jovial shadow]

I don't see any Bracers of Flying Daggers, so I am guessing it's in some other book or module. Which means accessibility is an issue.

[tawdry sentinel]

Dragon heist

[woven flint]

It's from Dragon Heist

[tawdry sentinel]

Skulker any good?

[blissful ibex]

Presently in DH my char has a Ring of Animal Influence, the Cloak of Protection she prucahsed, and is attuned to the mcguffin XD

[blissful ibex]

Blindsight alone is kinda worth TBH
the rest of it is just bonus

[amber echo]

drow elf with skulker = blindsight + darkness

[halcyon bison]

Or be a warlock with devil's sight/witch sight :>

i see everything

[feral fulcrum]

Devil Sight my beloved.

[feral fulcrum]

In full color! No more shades of grey!

[blissful ibex]

I wouldn't mind a Blindsight Eldritch Invocation though
I could totally be trusted with that

[amber echo]

guys one doubt "Bracers of Flying Daggers" can be used only for throwing? or i can be use to melee atk?

[tawdry sentinel]

Mmm I've just hit 8 and can't remember if I'd actually chosen a feat yet.

[tawdry sentinel]

Only ranged

[halcyon bison]

Stabbing is not allowed :(

[feral fulcrum]

You've got better things to attack people in melee with anyway. Daggers are one of the worst melee weapons. Their only upside is being something you can throw.

[blissful ibex]

Skill Expertise is good
So is Skulker for melee
I'm partial to Telekinetic for Casters, especially if you don't normally use your bonus action overly much c:

[tawdry sentinel]

I love telekinetic. But the rogue's never gonna be able to use it. The blindsight is probably the big selling point because poor halfling has no dark vision

[woven flint]

And having the nick weapon property, but Scimitar is also right there and does higher damage

[halcyon bison]

You probably have better things to attack at range with too, but they're less cool

[blissful ibex]

can also use it to reposition ranged allies so they're not in threatened range for their ranged attacks and can skip the disadvantage

they can just choose to fail the save

[burnt valley]

That sounds like a baseline for superhuman feats rather than over the top

[woven flint]

One could also just take Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter to ignore the disadvantage, which, you always should on a ranged fighting character anyway tbh

[blissful ibex]

though they probs have sharpshooter or spell sniper but still

[blissful ibex]

Ascendant Dragon monk can fly a bit IIRC
just requires you do your BA dash

[woven flint]

So can new elements monk
At higher levels

[valid geyser]

Would the bracer of flying dagger attacks be monk weapons legally?

[woven flint]

I mean, you throw daggers, which are simple weapons, I'd personally say yeah

the bracers just don't have any item bonus (Like a +1 +2 or +3)

[valid geyser]

I just figured since it was an action to make those attacks and not legally an attack action I was unsure how it’d work
Even then it’s probably not gonna replace flurry of blows if a monk used it, probably just as a way of making some ranged attacks in a pinch

[woven flint]

so they're regular daggers

[blissful ibex]

it's still a dagger, so yeah
even if you're limited to only using the thrown property

[feral fulcrum]

If the daggers themselves are Monk Weapons, it'd work. The Bracer itself is not a weapon, it just summons Daggers.

[main maple]

Hello

[keen valve]

Use the other end then.

Bludg bludg bludgeoning and so forth.

[blissful ibex]

throwing/ranged is just stabbing at a distance

[burnt valley]

If a Rogue is somehow excelling than the entire party, its either:

1. Heavy DM intervention and copious sandbagging
2. They aren't built very well or were intentionally picking suboptimal or at worst bad spells
3. Both

[amber echo]

make a soulknife u have infinity daggers and more range to throw

[blissful ibex]

4, you've got an Order Ceric and/or a Battle Master Fighter with Commander's Strike

[woven flint]

A Rogue honestly by themselves shouldn't be outperforming ANYONE lmao

[valid geyser]

Im playing a rogue as the only martial in a party of casters who aren’t picking a lot of damaging spells. Like I wouldn’t say I’m excelling but my DM is thinking my damage is a tad over the top

[woven flint]

Unless you're a damn good rogue

[blissful ibex]

They're a utility/exploration class that has okay damage scaling, they don't need to be topping DPR charts

[woven flint]

Exactly

[halcyon forum]

your DM might want to look at a GWM barbarian if they wanna see actual good damage lol

[woven flint]

Or like... Any caster worth their salt

[valid geyser]

Yeah I definitely think he’s over reacting some

[feral fulcrum]

I feel like people fixate too much on being the Absolute Best And Greatest And Outshinining Someone Else when considering classes good or not.

[halcyon forum]

tried to keep it an apples to apples comparison but sure

[blissful ibex]

GWM ascendant dragon's wrath greatsword fighter

[ember sandal]

I'm in a campaign right now with two and a half rogues, and one of us can basically one shot anything, and the other one and a half can do a fair amount of damage (half maybe, I realize I'm exaggerating, but it's still for both a good chunk of damage)

[burnt valley]

Exactly

[amber echo]

Thrown (range 60/120 feet) and Mastery: Vex with a Psychic dmg and infinity daggers Soulknife is nice

[valid geyser]

I’ve also just been kinda lucky with crits

[blissful ibex]

20d6+44 damage per round anyone?

20d6+60 with the good str belt, probs better ways to up that though

[burnt valley]

Outdone by a Longbow btw, the only thing has it going for it is Psychic type damage

[halcyon forum]

I dont think using a level 20 character with a legendary item or two is a useful point of comparison here

[feral fulcrum]

I want something like Pathfinder's (1E's) Titan Fighter, but it's never going to happen in 5e. 🙁 Being able to dual wield Greatswords would be too broken.

[burnt valley]

Danse Macabre skeletons with Wands of Magic Missiles go brrrr

[blissful ibex]

It may as well be the way people complain about DPR

[burnt valley]

True

[blissful ibex]

just play the game and don't build in such a way as to do worse than an only mildly optimized char XD

[woven flint]

I have a Rogue with a Third-Party magic item called "The Ring of the Assassin Lord"
It allows me to sneak attack twice per turn with two caviats

1. It must be against a different target who meets prerequisites for sneak attack
   And
2. Your sneak attack damage is halved (8d6 to 4d6)
   And I'm still nowhere near our Barbarian/Fighter or Paladin in damage lol

[burnt valley]

Martials need magic items to catch up at T2 to T4

[halcyon forum]

useful comparisons are characters build for similar purpose and with the same parameters (level, magic item access)

[blissful ibex]

or the DM can acutally pressure casters by not letting them LR after every fight

[feral fulcrum]

Even then they still need magic items, and the game itself expects it. 5E doesn't expect lvl 20 fighter's to still be rocking just their starting weapons. And instead damage increasing ones.

[halcyon forum]

Martials suffer more in long days than casters imo, because HP is also a resource, and it runs out quicker for them usually.

[valid geyser]

The game does not expect magic items to be necessary for progression

[blissful ibex]

It explicitly doesn't, it's balanced around having mundane equipment with magic equipment being a bonus
though a highly recomended one, because having cool magic items are fun c:

[amber echo]

You can give yourself an advantage and apply the sneak attack in the same turn with both attacks without needing to be hidden or have an adjacent ally, and you can add DEX to the attack bonus.

[burnt valley]

Another caster buff as they could simply just have better resource management whilst martials start begging for LRs when their hp is low(HP is a resource and going melee wastes that fast)

[woven flint]

You could just... Buy health potions?

[blissful ibex]

They can SR and the casters can burn more slots on heals

[valid geyser]

Mostly agree, yeah. I think that the solution to this requires more spell slots used on healing, which I’m not super sure on that practicality

[feral fulcrum]

Potions help with that. (Why does everyone keep forgetting potions of healing?)

[blissful ibex]

Hit dice do something other than being burnt to fuel Spellfire Adept

[valid geyser]

I mean you only have so many hit dice, and melees who take more damage are gonna burn them out faster

[burnt valley]

We can simply not heal the martials with slots lul

[halcyon forum]

I already factored in SRs. hit dice are also limited. And now you want casters to waste spell slots on healing?

[blissful ibex]

Then that's a party/table issue

[halcyon forum]

potions are not a factor you can control

might not get any

[woven flint]

And why wouldn't you?

[burnt valley]

So needlessly waste gp just cuz some punk keeps recklessly going into melee?

[woven flint]

"I'm just not gonna heal my martials"
Okay?
Then your martials die and so do you 🧐

[blissful ibex]

you only have so many spellslots too, half the game is resource management, and that goes out the window if you're in peak shape at the start of every encounter

[wanton sorrel]

i prefer potions some of the time if i was soloing

[valid geyser]

I do think 5e’s hit dice and short rest system is one of my less liked traits of the game. I always thought it was a little awkward and weird and could probably be tuned up

[feral fulcrum]

Because Ranged people and Casters are somehow immune to being hit? I too can make bad and stupid arguments.

[burnt valley]

If they're ranged sure why not, they wouldnt be expending their resource(HP) that fast

[halcyon forum]

they tend to get hit less

[woven flint]

Hey, if your party is PURELY ranged...
There's still gonna be targets..
And then they're most likely to target the one throwing fireballs over the guy with a bow and arrow

[blissful ibex]

unless there are enemy ranged units, casters, rogues, the party gets flanked, enemies get past the martials, lair actions, summons, adds... etc.

if the dm is only attacking martials, that's another DM issue

[woven flint]

Its almost as if being a ranged combatant doesn't make you immortal 🤔🤔

[blissful ibex]

make dang sure your backrow players learn the cover rules real quick XD

[halcyon forum]

no, but it does give you more tools to avoid damage overall

[valid geyser]

I don’t think anyone was gonna argue that. It’s not unreasonable to say that on average, melee characters getting in front of enemies will make them more likely to be hit by enemy attacks

[marble lion]

If you play really annoying, it can, depending on the DMs handling of kiting

[woven flint]

That is true, but Melee characters AREN'T completely invalid either

[feral fulcrum]

At the end of the day, it's about having fun, not Maximal Optimization.

[valid geyser]

I don’t think anyone was saying that

[blissful ibex]

Yes they will be hit more on average
Yes it is the caster party member's with the ability to access healing to have at least one or two healing spell prepared

[halcyon forum]

I like playing melee characters, but my point was that long days tend to be rougher on them than on ranged martials and spellcasters

[woven flint]

Fighters:
"Oh no! i was hit!... Anyways, second wind."

[hushed sluice]

hi im new to dnd anyone know where i could learn dnd and find a group to play with

[blissful ibex]

Read the information in #learn-to-play and 'Playing the Game'; Then follow allong with 'Creating A Character' using either the dnd beyond character builder or roll20 to make a practice character before heading over to #character-discussion to have it looked over.

Feel free to ask any questions you still have in #dnd-newcomers; There's a short interactive module you can play to get a feel for the game, or you could seek out gameplay videos online. Once you're ready to play, head over to #find-a-game, one of the many LFG discord servers, r/lfg on reddit, or your friendly local game store. If you'd like a printable character sheet, those can be found here.

[feral fulcrum]

Reading the Players handbook helps greatly for learning.

[dapper cloud]

#dnd-newcomers to learn. #find-a-game to…well…find a game.

[woven flint]

I do think martials should have a bit more self-healing capabilities
Though, that might just be me

[halcyon forum]

if you have less than 5 fights in a day, the difference is not that noticable, but then casters get up to other stuff

[hushed sluice]

about that…
i dont have one i was planning on using the discord activity lol

[blissful ibex]

they have plenty
let me cast Aura of Vitality between fights to recover if we need it XD

[woven flint]

No i mean, Self-Healing.

[feral fulcrum]

I would definitely recomend the PHB over the free rules.

[burnt valley]

Surprise mechanics nerfed in 2024, Sleet Storm basically fixes half of the sentence (Heavily obscured so that means no Fireball lmao and makes a DEX save or go prone), Rogues melee lul, ranged martials part isn't a problem since all of us will be staying away from range anyway, Conjure Total Cover (Rope Trick)

[woven flint]

as in, the ability to heal my damned self as a martial besides a fighter

[wanton sorrel]

D&Dbeyond has the free playersbook >.> I think

[dapper cloud]

I think the only ones that don’t are Barbarian and Rogue, and they have their own damage mitigation methods.

[amber echo]

for now u can use second wind 2 times very strong

[valid geyser]

Only like, fighters and monks have any real self healing besides the half casters

[woven flint]

I mean, some martial subclasses can do that, yeah, but still

[dapper cloud]

Cure Wounds, Lay On Hands and Goodberry are still healing in my book, doesn’t matter whether it’s fully self focused or not.

[woven flint]

I don't consider Paladins and Rangers PURE martials

[blissful ibex]

yep, literally everything in the game has counters, listing them off does you no good if you don't have them prepped, and even if you do; look, there goes more of your limited resources

[woven flint]

I'm talking the ones that just don't have spells.

[feral fulcrum]

If you can cast spells, you're not a Pure Martial. Pure Martial, by definition, is not a spellcaster.

[wanton sorrel]

why not mash potatoes or other foods to gain health like HAM and CHEESE

[blissful ibex]

it's almost like forcing the party to deal with things actually puts pressure on them, huh

[dapper cloud]

Yeah, like I said, Barb and Rogue don’t have it but they don’t need it due to damage resistances for Barb and Uncanny Dodge and Evasion for Rogue.

[burnt valley]

They're like quarter casters

[dapper cloud]

Also one of the Barb subclasses has healing, I think it’s World Tree?

[blissful ibex]

Zealot does in 2024, Warrior of the Gods rework

[halcyon forum]

world tree has temp HP I think?

[woven flint]

Halfcasters.

[dapper cloud]

Yeah, I waa thinking Zealot.

[halcyon forum]

zealot has can heal, yeah

[valid geyser]

Damage resistance doesn’t mean you won’t need healing

[burnt valley]

Any full caster worth their crap actually has these prepared

[blissful ibex]

yep, and they have to burn slots and take up concentration to use them

[feral fulcrum]

Whistles and juggles spell scrolls

[blissful ibex]

then they have to burn money to use them
you need to pressure resources and this accomplishes that

[valid geyser]

I’ve played 2014 totem barb for 20 levels. I had like, as much HP as I could possibly get, and after every fight I’d still get messed up and need to spend like 90% of my hit dice to heal up

[dapper cloud]

True, but it means you’re taking half the damage everyone else is. Less damage is less damage.

[delicate owl]

Durable feat. They get the most healing from it.

[feral fulcrum]

Acquire, rather then Use. Thankfully the Tax Man isn't going to rob your every time you use a spellscroll.

[halcyon forum]

the true barb experience, yeah

[delicate owl]

The tools for healing are there, people would rather deal damage though haha

[blissful ibex]

Because Barbarian is an HP sponge that relies on DR rather than avoiding taking damage
their playstyle does end up with them needing far more heals than an equivelant level fighter

[woven flint]

Exactly, my Cleric has two bless scrolls, two healing word scrolls and a Revivify scroll right now, its not an insane amount of scrolls, but casters CAN pad themselves out... if they have the access..

[still plover]

It does feel like you're putting a Kick Me sign up for the DM.

[halcyon forum]

and the problem is the math, sure you took some hit for your allies but overall, the enemies dealt more damage to the whole party's HP pool than they would have if you played a different class

[woven flint]

I mean, a Dragon Heist campaign gearing up to go into Dungeon of the Mad Mage soon, we better damned gear up lmao

[feral fulcrum]

I mean they do have a feature that explicitly makes it easier to hit them.

[burnt valley]

Concentration is a non problem (Res:Con and War Caster) and they will typically use slots when they have to and most of the time its just kiting + cantrip spam

[robust fable]

The hp difference between martials and casters barely matters

[blissful ibex]

Not in that the concentation goes down
in that you now can't concentrate on something damaging, controll spells like like Hypnotic Pattern, or some other useful spell because the resource that is concentration is being taken up on preventing yourself getting got

[burnt valley]

Since when did i make that assumption?

[still plover]

I dunno. Level one, in rage, a barbarian has over 20 EHP without trying. Compare that to your casters.

[feral fulcrum]

I'm not going to argue with an obvious troll.

[blissful ibex]

yes but they have advatage to be hit and far lower AC than the fighter sitting pretty at like 18AC right next to them
You can't draw conclusions on how hard martials in general get hit with fewer long rests if your only point of reference is barbarian

[woven flint]

You know, when my fighter reaches level 6, imma take Durable on him just to see how much more it really pads him out, because now I do be thonkling

[valid geyser]

Yeah my barbarian experience I had pretty low AC for a lot of it. Was a pretty big factor in how long I lasted, even at the higher levels when AC means a little less

[halcyon forum]

barbarians are very good in tier 1

[still plover]

All I'm saying from my above is when the DM wants to throw dice at someone, a barbarian makes a very easy target.

[halcyon forum]

generally, I think there isnt really a martial/Caster problem in the first 4-5 levels

[valid geyser]

I was also magic item reliant on my damage because I was pumping con. Had a natural 14 strength and used gauntlets of ogre strength for most of tier 2 and 3

[blissful ibex]

because casters still have very limited slots, and even if you are giving them a LR every encounter, there's not many terribly good damaging options in the first two levels of spells

it's when you start giving them two fireballs every encounter that you start running into issues; you need to actually pressure the casters to keep the martials up and to burn through resources.

Most casters are by nature more burst when it comes to damage, and martials are more sustained

[valid geyser]

I mostly think the problem is more about utility than anything, you just gotta accept a martial is gonna have less stuff to do, and casters have all the best support and buffs

[fervent knoll]

I like martial because I'm not smart enough to play casters

[feral fulcrum]

You don't need to be all that smart to play casters in 5e.

[fervent knoll]

You're underestimating just how dumb I am

[woven flint]

Play an Evocation Wizard
The Bonk stick of casters

[feral fulcrum]

If you're capable of reading, and pointing in a general direction, you can cast just fine.

[dapper cloud]

Martials are fun because big number go brrr.

[blissful ibex]

They get graze on their cantrips in 2024 as well c:

[fervent knoll]

I love cleave

[woven flint]

indeed

[halcyon forum]

or play a warlock summoner, now you control two martials xD

[blissful ibex]

sadly pact of the chain falls off hard

[halcyon forum]

I meant the summon X spells

[woven flint]

Problem with Warlock summoner is the lack of upcasting makes summon spells fall off faster

[halcyon forum]

they upcast very good

[valid geyser]

Yeah that is why I do like the visage us sub a lot

[woven flint]

No, i mean... Not having spell slots above level 5

[blissful ibex]

the spells are all 4th level IIRC and pact slots cap at 5th

[feral fulcrum]

Warlocks only have a max of 5th level spells. Arcanum's can't be used to Upcast.

[jovial shadow]

Kiting? What is that?

[halcyon forum]

ah i guess a warlock summoner is not ideal for games that go beyond level 13

but like, those are rare

[woven flint]

Looks at the three above level 13 campaigns I'm in rn

[halcyon forum]

and I think its rarely worth upcasting summon x spells to 6th level

[blissful ibex]

what gets the DM to actually use enviornmental effects and Crowd Control enemies

it's basically running rings around an enemy so they can't effectively do much other than chase after you

[halcyon forum]

but 4th level is the sweet spot

[woven flint]

Oh, absolutely..
Unless its summon Aberrations Beholder because MY GAWD that thing kicks ass

[halcyon bison]

i really wish the pact of the chain warlock had more consistent power levels across it's special summons
As is, imps and quasits are objectively better than all the other options in almost every way you want to actually use a familiar

[feral fulcrum]

Neener Neener you can't reach me. That's kiting.

[valid geyser]

Another half-agree. I think we should make sure not to over value tier 3 and 4 play because it doesn’t see much time at the table, but I don’t want to fill discredit it

[burnt valley]

You use ranged weapons and stay several ft away from your opponent

[halcyon forum]

my next planned character will summon that one a lot. the ranged attack and fly speed make it very survivable

[jovial shadow]

Ah thanks

[woven flint]

Kiting is bascially skirmishing

[blissful ibex]

just sucks because my multiclass doesn't feel properly online until tier 3
though she plays just fine in tier 1~2

[woven flint]

I hope you have tons of fun with it!
I know I love that spell to death, personally lol

[feral fulcrum]

Multiclassing is generally slow to get good, if it gets good at all.

[robust fable]

Okay you probably have 16 ac, 15 hp. Enemy has +3 to hit and deals an average on 10 damage with a hit and they only attack once. The Caster armor dips so they have 18 ac and 9 hp.

Non raging barb goes down in 3.4 rounds

Raging barb: 6.8 rounds

Caster: 2.2727272727... rounds

Dodging caster: 9.09090909... rounds

Caster using Shield every turn: 15.51724137931034483

Dodge+Shield every turn: 300 rounds

Caster using Shield once: 3.560606... rounds

Dodging caster+using Shield once: 10.06060606 rounds

[valid geyser]

Yeah the only time I’ve loved playing a multiclass was a game where I got lots of level skips and got to go straight to stuff like fighter 6 cleric 11 for action surged holy weapon shilllagh strikes

[woven flint]

Summon Aberration is Like...
My favorite spell
Steel Wind Strike and Synaptic Static are just below it

[blissful ibex]

I have her optomized to the point where she does enough at every level, just takes some doing to get to the fun features >.>
it's why I want to try a gestalt game

[halcyon forum]

I think a Warlock summoner is generally fine until tier 4. the 5th level slots are not ideal but other summoners rarely can summon the higher tier stuff either

[valid geyser]

A level 1 character multiclassing for armor and having plate… sure…

[halcyon forum]

and its not like the build cant change direction in tier 4

[robust fable]

Its not plate

Its Scale Mail+a Shield

[halcyon forum]

summoning doesnt really have a big investment

[woven flint]

plus you can still get Summon Fiend as a Mystic Arcanum 👀

[blissful ibex]

don't need plate, just chain/scale mail and a shield
cleric and druid can both do a standing 18ac without MC at level 1

[halcyon forum]

yeah

[valid geyser]

Either way you’re assuming they have infinite spell slots to cast shield with

[robust fable]

No i don't

[dapper cloud]

If the caster is spending the whole time dodging, I think you have different problems than survivability.

[robust fable]

The cast Shield every turn is there because i found it interesting. See the omes where you don't cast Shield or only once

[woven flint]

Unless its Cleric Spirit Gaurdians /half-joking

[valid geyser]

Also there are just no classes at level 1 that get both medium armor and access to shield

[blissful ibex]

Better setup is a caster with 18 standing ac + bladeward for an additional effective 2.5 average AC

[woven flint]

... Fighter?

[robust fable]

Yeah there are no classes

Only subclasses

Or feats

[valid geyser]

The spell.

[robust fable]

The Shield spell

[woven flint]

Ah

[halcyon bison]

Also the caster dodging point is unhelpful anyways cause it's not being compared to the marital dodging

[woven flint]

My mistake, I thought we were talking proficencies, I'm a bit out of it lmao

[feral fulcrum]

Tenser's Transformation?

[blissful ibex]

Technically the fighter spell XD

[robust fable]

Unless the martial is attacking its not contributing. The caster still contributes by concentrating on a spell

[valid geyser]

Also I feel like this is making assumptions that the caster might have access to these feats and stuff but not the martial

[dapper cloud]

Also this assumes that the enemies are only attacking AC and aren’t forcing people to make saves.

[halcyon bison]

Alright, but they're still not doing a very good job. Also it skips the first round on which they have to cast the spell

[crystal latch]

What's the topic?

[feral fulcrum]

Math in Whiterooms.

[robust fable]

The Barb is raging, they wear armor i did math for them using a shield

[valid geyser]

We could say the martial has defensive duelist or something and then also has access to an AC boosting reaction

[halcyon bison]

Also martials can contribute by grappling and/or knocking people prone, mostly doing so better than casters

[blissful ibex]

but yeah, results in a 25%~10% chance to be hit, with an average chance of %15 when rounding if against only a +3 modifier

[robust fable]

Then thats a bad build, even for a martial

[crystal latch]

I assume the pro-caster side is right again

[woven flint]

There's sides now?

[robust fable]

Don't assome! Its insulting to me

[valid geyser]

wouldnt their AC be higher than 16?

[woven flint]

Pro-Caster?
Pro-Martial?

I'm pro-having fun

[robust fable]

I assume they don't have a half plate

[valid geyser]

even with just scale mail theyd be at the 18 benchmark, same as the hypothetical caster

[dapper cloud]

Eh, 16 AC for a low level Barb sounds right. Paladin and Fighter can quite easily beat 18 AC early on.

[burnt valley]

Martials vs Caster disparity, also someone is screaming white room for Nth time again

[robust fable]

Im pro-optimal, casters are optimal, martials are not

[valid geyser]

this is also a barbarian with a shield, theyd have 18 AC

[woven flint]

That's a take lol

[dapper cloud]

“I refuse to have fun in my storytelling game. I only play to win.”

[valid geyser]

also i wanna restate that at level 1, even in 2014. a Sorcerer or wizard couldnt have both medium armor and shield proficiency with just one feat, and there arent any sorcerer subclasses that give armor prof

[woven flint]

Anyone can be optimal
But I don't give a shit about optimal personally lol

[halcyon bison]

I think there is indeed a power disparity between martials and casters, but I think it's a bit overstated, especially at lower levels
Especially because martials can take better use of some very powerful magic weapons and armor
But you don't always need to play what's the mathematically best class ever, we're playing a game to have fun. And martials are cool.

[valid geyser]

you stated the caster was armor dipping, not a cleric grabbing magic initiate for shield

[robust fable]

Its understated

[crystal latch]

I agree that the disparity is overall understated and has been since 2014 5e

[dapper cloud]

If everyone were playing optimally, the DM wins every time, because they can drop 20 Astral Dreadnoughts at any time.

[burnt valley]

There are better systems to do that, if you're not gonna engage with the mechanics, you may as well be not playing a game

[tawdry sentinel]

Is this the riveting world of playing cleric by concentrating on bless/ spirit guardians and spamming dodge?

[feral fulcrum]

He Who Stands In Doorways With Spirits

[valid geyser]

also, wouldnt the caster with 18 AC using the shield spell need to be hit by a crit to take damage? i dont know if that was factored in or not

well theyd have 9 hp and were assuming it just does 10 damage everytime (very realistic scenario) so i guess that wouldnt matter

[woven flint]

Me throwing 50 Shadows at my Strength dumped party because building Dexterity is more "optimal"

STRENGTH USERS..
Unite! Raggh!!!!!

[burnt valley]

Me simply leaving the room or start kiting them with mounts

[feral fulcrum]

You could throw that at a strength focused party and it'd still murk them. Ability drain gets out of hand fast.

[crystal latch]

(they will perform better against shadows because shadows are m*lee monsters)

[woven flint]

You.. do know how fast shadows are, right?

[tawdry sentinel]

TBF this is basically the reason I stone wall people asking to use acrobatics for climbing.

[woven flint]

Who said it was just one room of shadows?

[burnt valley]

60ft base speed from horse and then I dash

[woven flint]

Congrats, your horse dashes and provokes opportunity attacks because it didn't disengage

[crystal latch]

Just about every "gotcha" monster that exists in online discussion to be brought up as "this totally counters the typically optimal stuff and gives dramatically weaker options a niche" is either a hard counter to those weaker options more than anything else or is hard-countered by the standard optimal stuff. Sometimes both.
Beholders, rakshasas, whatever else comes to mind.

[woven flint]

I'm just being an Ass tbh

Fun should be prioritized over pure optimization

[halcyon bison]

Mounted combat is really strong in D&D
And in real life! So it's realistic

[valid geyser]

i just kinda thought the hypothetical posted here was dumb and i wanted to pick it apart on why it was dumb

[crystal latch]

Beholders are totally unserious as something that allegedly counters casters because every effective anti-beholder tactic is a spell

[burnt valley]

This is like one of the most common "argument" used

[woven flint]

Yeah, you optimizers have fun optimizing
But I'm FUN-MAXXING
Gooberbuilding

Optimizers ASSUME they have every tool to face a situation

[crystal latch]

Optimizers have a tool for that many situations

[woven flint]

Assuming makes an ass outta you for a reason

You can't simply always predict what's going to happen

Sometimes your character is gonna suck ass
And that's okay
D&D is a team game for a reason

[dapper cloud]

Pretty sure that’s why they have an anti-magic eye.

[lusty kelp]

Abuse divination magic! Predict it all~

[still plover]

This is why the writers gave us dungeons (often difficult to ride in) and dragons (who can fly and see your mount as a tasty snack).

[woven flint]

Okay, putting nondetection on all of my enemies now >:] /joking

[crystal latch]

The versatility of the best options in a caster toolkit is so high that I could bring the same party comp from level 1 to N to every single module ever published for 5e and not change my spell preps significantly to have one of the best possible toolkits for every situation in those modules

[hot marlin]

Actually at high level I certainly expect creatures with the ability to do so to protect themselves against divination

[lusty kelp]

Honestly is a necessary tactic in mage the awakening. If you don't, you die

[crystal latch]

Which allows them to, for example, choose to be unable to target anyone with their eye rays because they're in a fog cloud or be unable to do so because they're in an AMF

[hot marlin]

Nondetection is a normal, common defense. Consider the fact that Scrying on a god is possible

[woven flint]

It's exactly this kind of mindset that bores me
Experimentation is fun
Even if you KNOW something is bad

[steel moth]

i suppose fun is subjective so there isnt really an argument to be made here

[woven flint]

I like to pick Thematic things too
My Celestial Warlock has almost NO Eldritch feeling spells because I refuse for him to associate with Otherworldly beings

[halcyon bison]

I really like experimenting with builds :3
Typically I'm focusing on a particular thing I'm trying to be, like a necromancer or a dhampir who fights exclusively with bites

[woven flint]

My Bladesinger Wizard barely knows ANY AoE spells

But that's pretty much a party full of spellcasters lol

[halcyon bison]

Or a witch-themed caster who can use metamagic adept to cast polymorph and bestow curse at range

And turn people (and eldritch star gods) into frogs

[crystal latch]

I do think that a well-designed system would not have the issue of "the entire party picks up the same options for the third campaign in a row and it turns out that their toolkit was also perfect for situations #3632-4773"
But 5e really is kind of like chess but with an almost instant-win opening

[dapper cloud]

The cone doesn’t need vision. Just get rid of the fog cloud or the anti magic field. The players have to move out of the cone to do their magic anyway, so at that point pelt them with legendary action eye rays.

[crystal latch]

The PCs can make attack rolls at the beholder from within the cloud

[dapper cloud]

True, the martials will have an easy time of it. Spells don’t really solve the thing at all though.

[short glade]

5e is extremely easy, and largely solved by the optimizers.

[burnt valley]

Ranged weapons exist myowwa

[halcyon bison]

Really I wish D&D worked better with making specific builds but 5e really doesn't give you that much freedom with what you can make :(

[tropic plank]

I suppose you just don’t have to have beholders three campaigns in a row

[crystal latch]

Fog cloud is what makes the fight trivial

[tawdry sentinel]

This is why all beholder lairs should come with a large fan and large rocks to drop the ceiling.

[robust fable]

Yeah and we won by casting a spell

Here is a hint: F_g Cl__d

[short glade]

If yall looking for something with similar flavor but deeper mechanics check into DCC from Goodman games.

[tropic plank]

All beholders should have a little goblin minion that has done nothing but learn counterspell

[dapper cloud]

Also, magic items are shut down as well, so the martials will have a harder time regardless.

[robust fable]

I did not read what Haen has said 😆

[dapper cloud]

The cone is not based on vision.

[crystal latch]

Doesn't matter though

[woven flint]

It does though?

[crystal latch]

The beholder can neither target people with its rays in the cone (because of the AMF) nor out of it (because of fog cloud)

The fact that it is able to project its cone at all changes nothing as it is already factored in (why wouldn't it be?)

[woven flint]

Did the beholder like.. not just move? Lmao

[halcyon bison]

I don't get it. Can't the beholder just leave the cloud?

[tawdry sentinel]

You fog cloud yourself

[valid geyser]

a behodler can still like, bite you. They can do it twice with their legendary action
bite the caster, maybe they drop concentration, then shoot eye rays

[dapper cloud]

But the players can’t do anything either?

[halcyon bison]

Now YOU can't see

[dapper cloud]

Except the martials swinging, but they’re still weakened by the lack of magic items.

[robust fable]

It either uses its antimagic eye to counter the fog cloud>it can't use the rays

Or it does not use it>it can't use the rays because they need los

[tawdry sentinel]

And step in and out of it to zap the beholder.

This does just solve the fight if you don't do anything flashy as a dm

[crystal latch]

The players are fully capable of making ranged weapon attacks and, while not in the cone but in the cloud, ranged spell attacks

Because most attack cantrips don't require line of sight

[burnt valley]

That's already been addressed, do we have to repeat this to you three more times

[woven flint]

Most ATTACK Rolls require you you SEE something

[robust fable]

No, you are just wrong

[crystal latch]

No, most attack rolls don't require you to see the target

[steel moth]

that's wrong

[woven flint]

Well, lemme rephrase

[halcyon bison]

Couldn't the beholder just supress the fog cloud by looking at it

[dapper cloud]

I’m assuming that with an 150 foot cone, there’s an angle that can dispel the cloud entirely.

[tawdry sentinel]

They don't to be fair

[tawdry sentinel]

It's eye cone blocks it's eye rays.

[robust fable]

Yes they could to that, but their eye rays need them to see the target

[woven flint]

Most attack rolls have disadvantage when you can't see something *

[tame forge]

I really want to run a "DM" character. Probably bard. All illusion spells, narrate all the time, drop illusions to make your narrations real, control dialouge with high charisma and tie it in with your narrations.

[dapper cloud]

I’m kinda surprised Beholders don’t have Truesight to begin with because…y’know, eyes.

[crystal latch]

The target also cannot see you because fog cloud works both ways

[robust fable]

Yes and being attacked by someone who you don't see gives them advantage

[valid geyser]

again, a beholder can still do some stuff without their eye rays

[umbral girder]

Yeah because the attacker also cannot be seen. So it would have advantage countering its disadvantage

[valid geyser]

if theyre both in the fog cloud, itd just be a straight roll

[burnt valley]

You mean trying to bite as the players effortlessly move away from range?

[robust fable]

Yes like

1. Move 20ft
2. Bite
3. Die

[valid geyser]

i mean biting the caster twice with a legendary action, dropping the fog cloud, and then shooting eye rays

[robust fable]

Yes and? Thats the default

[umbral girder]

Or move up, out of both effects.

[crystal latch]

A beholder's only option without using its rays is to make melee attacks, which is where it becomes a game of "keep the beholder away, move through the cloud, pelt it with shots until it dies"

[umbral girder]

Opportunity attacks require sight

[valid geyser]

40 feet*

[vale canyon]

Hello!

[woven flint]

Okay, but still, here's the big problem

Antimagic Field doesn't REQUIRE you to see the caster.
And you can most likely SEE the fog effect

[crystal latch]

What does that have to do with anything?

Eye rays require line of sight and don't work in an antimagic field

The beholder has merely the right to choose the reason why it can't target the PCs

[woven flint]

Antimagic field also...
Dispels a spell, no?

[robust fable]

No

[crystal latch]

Explicitly does not

The spell is suppressed while the AMF and the spell overlap, in the area of the overlap

Once the cone moves, the fog returns at once

[umbral girder]

Nope it suppresses

[halcyon bison]

It's "suppressed," so presumably it reappears once the field goes away

[valid geyser]

also this all goes on the assumption that the person who casts fog cloud goes first. If not, then the beholder could at least make some legendary actions, if not go before

[dapper cloud]

What of the beholder…just waits out the fog cloud? What can the players do inside it?

[umbral girder]

Yeah it can just move away.

[halcyon bison]

It could bite them

[crystal latch]

Shoot it with bows, crossbows and cantrips

[robust fable]

Attack the Beholder

[woven flint]

That's also true lol

[crystal latch]

Fog cloud has a duration of 1 hour

[halcyon bison]

The beholder's best move is probably just leave though

[umbral girder]

Also a beholder can just change the terrain

[dapper cloud]

They can’t see it.

[umbral girder]

It has a Disintegration beam after all, could just carve out a wall for itself

[robust fable]

Yes and? You just attack it with straight rolls

[crystal latch]

They are targeting it with attack rolls, not LOS-requiring spells

[umbral girder]

That’s how they make their lairs after all

[tropic plank]

This is a lot of words to say that fighting a beholder is a very complicated task and depends largely on the layout of the terrain and the Party’s classes and abilities

[halcyon bison]

Yeah I think the beholder would probably just leave

[crystal latch]

This is a good point about why you need to upcast Fog Cloud to a high enough level to fill the room

[valid geyser]

i still havent seen any arguments against "bite the caster until they drop concentration"

[umbral girder]

Also it could just dash action somewhere else too. 80ft to somewhere safer.

[valid geyser]

like the battle still isnt in their favor in this scenario, but its not unwinnable

[north hawk]

Beholder moves out out of the Fog Cloud and behind it. Holding it's action to eye ray someone that comes out of the Fog cloud or around the perimeter of the cloud which it's hiding behind.

[halcyon bison]

But then the beholder can just use any preexisting entrance to the room

[robust fable]

Why would you leave the Fog Cloud

[umbral girder]

Also yeah a Beholder can bite 7-9 times a round too.

[tawdry sentinel]

It doesn't really hit hard enough to knock concentration off, it's slow as anything, there's probably someone that will be very happy if a beholder trundles within sword range.

[halcyon bison]

Oh yeah! I forgot about holding actions. That too!

[north hawk]

Eye Rays.

[crystal latch]

Let's count how many attacks it actually takes for a beholder to break an armordipped caster's conc - since beholders are CR 13 and you can expect to fight them in dungeons, I will assume an 8th-level party for the purpose of determining hit points and feats

[steel moth]

the bite is a +5 to hit it is going to be very hard

[robust fable]

Why would the party leave the Fog Cloud

[umbral girder]

Also a Beholder can just grapple you and drag you out of the Fog Cloud too.

Then spam lasers.

[north hawk]

Beholder takes the hide action and the party no longer have a target.

[crystal latch]

Grappling requires a free hand

[woven flint]

Me when a Beholder is probably Intelligent enough to understand when a situation isn't in its favor and would probably just dip if the dm is playing the monster as more than just a big meat stick

[burnt valley]

They can only do it once, are you sure this isn't a reworked homebrew version of the Beholder?

[crystal latch]

5.5e

[valid geyser]

theyre still probably making a lot of them with their legendary actions. It's not impossible for them to fail one DC 10 concentration check

[umbral girder]

2025 Beholder can bite twice with a Legendary.

[steel moth]

a beholder has +0 to grapple lol

[crystal latch]

Grappling requires hands

[robust fable]

With their +0?

[burnt valley]

Oh right mb

[robust fable]

Oh indeed

[steel moth]

also is it 5.5e or 5e

[halcyon bison]

It's +3 in 2024, still not very good but better

[burnt valley]

5.5e

[north hawk]

Beholders generally don't want to be in melee. They will use their float to stay out of melee range and eye ray.

[umbral girder]

In 2014 yeah casters lack the stats.

In 2025 its DC16

[robust fable]

But they can't eye ray because of the fog cloud

[burnt valley]

Scroll up

[umbral girder]

Also Beholders can grow new eyes in the walls too in 2014 for different positions.

[tawdry sentinel]

With warcaster or whatever it kind of is.

You pop shield, it goes for just the caster. Walks into 4/5 people and gets nuked.

I like beholders, but they're hard countered by fog unless you're gonna give it lair actions or some special feature that goes lol no.

[north hawk]

They can eye ray when the party comes out which it is hidden from. The party can't target a Beholder with the hidden condition while they are in a fog cloud which makes them blind.

[steel moth]

optimised casters generally have a +2 to dex so it's in their favor

[umbral girder]

So?

[crystal latch]

It takes a beholder 33 attacks on average to break the concentration of a 19 AC caster with +2 Con mod and War Caster

[valid geyser]

advantage still doesnt guarantee anything

[woven flint]

Bold of ye to all assume the beholder doesn't just wanna chill and watch nature documentaries with the party

[umbral girder]

Also fun fact about their Antimagic cone. It just needs to be on part of the Fog Cloud to suppress it. Not the entire cloud.

[halcyon bison]

Depending on your reading of antimagic field, the beholder might suppress the entire fog cloud regardless of how much of it is in the cone, allowing it to use its eye beams
Also the beholder can still just leave

[tawdry sentinel]

I dunno dude I am relatively confident in a level 8 parties capability to kill something with 200 hp if it floats into melee range of the whole group.

[umbral girder]

So just come part of the cloud then spam eye beams on the edge of the cone

They can just aim their eye cone after all.

[crystal latch]

This translates to around four rounds including the use of its legendary actions

[valid geyser]

i mean i dont think the fight is in the beholders favor either but theres a still a method that would let them win/disable the fog cloud

[north hawk]

Also there's nothing wrong with a DM improvising and using the telekinetic ray to hurl boulders into the anti magic cone.

[tawdry sentinel]

Having incredibly unpleasant lairs where they just disintegrate the ceiling over your head and drop lava on you.

[umbral girder]

That too

Or just collapse the room above the fog cloud. Disintegration ray after all

Or the floor . Or the walls.

[crystal latch]

This is, again, why it's a matter of upcasting fog cloud to fill the room

[valid geyser]

i mean sure that too
I just dont think you can realistically say that there's a 0% chance of failure when making like, 5-7 DC 10 con saves with a +3 bonus and advantage

[steel moth]

anything is possible if the dm plays ball

[woven flint]

It's almost like an intelligent monster can improvise

[umbral girder]

Then just fly out of the cloud.

[woven flint]

Or just dip since the party can't see you

[crystal latch]

If it flies away it's still getting shot at

[robust fable]

They can't just choose to use telekinetic ray, its only in a striaght line and it deals no damage

[umbral girder]

Not if it just turns a corner.

Or flies out of the range.

[robust fable]

Out of the range of your longbows?

[umbral girder]

Especially since they can make new tunnels and path ways

[tawdry sentinel]

I'm not saying it's impossible I'm saying you want the beholder dead with no difficulty you drop fog immediately and shoot it to death in three rounds even with disadvantage, or faster if it waddles on in to bite people.

There are things you can and should do to make it more complicated than that.

[valid geyser]

it at the very least says that telekinetic ray lets them exert fine control on objects. i dont know what that means in a fight realistically

[woven flint]

Or it has a ring of Invisibility on one of its eye-stalks

Stares at Xanny

[steel moth]

If it leaves wouldnt it be an easier fight since it's out if its lair

[dapper cloud]

Funnily enough, Xanather has one of these.

[woven flint]

I know lol

[dapper cloud]

Ah, I had a feeling.

[umbral girder]

Also yeah. It can take the Hide action too. Even in the Fog Cloud.

[robust fable]

No? It does what it says it does

[burnt valley]

I feel like we are going in circles here

[umbral girder]

Can’t attack something if it’s not there after that.

[dapper cloud]

The obvious answer is to just to give it a Ring of Truesight.

[valid geyser]

The beholder can also exert fine control on objects with this ray, such as manipulating a tool or opening a door or container.

[woven flint]

True Sight funnily doesn't do anything against fog cloud 😭

[burnt valley]

Lmaoo

[crystal latch]

Takes 18 rounds of shooting to kill a beholder with just four light crossbows at +5 to hit, we probably have significantly better firepower than that at level 8-ish

[steel moth]

I can do all of this in irl why cant I throw a boulder

[tawdry sentinel]

You just need to try harder.

[halcyon bison]

Sure it's not a great situation for it, but it's better than it sitting still and doing nothing
And the players might not know where it goes if they can't see through the fog cloud
And it can go around a corner

[woven flint]

WEAK!!!! /joking

[north hawk]

This would be an improvised situation where the DM finds himself against a group of meta gamers who are attempting to use the rules to turn a Beholder fight into a trivial encounter. At that point the rule of cool comes out and DM adjudicates the monsters abilities to create a fun and memorable fight.

[umbral girder]

With disadvantage. On an AC of 18. Also they can just take the hide action and leave.

[halcyon bison]

And all of this is still assuming the fog cloud isn't suppressed regardless of how much is in the eye cone, cause if it is this doesn't work at all

[valid geyser]

i think telekinetic ray could hypothetically target a large object and move that

[robust fable]

And where is the "and throw rocks with it" part of the effect?

[crystal latch]

Not with disadvantage

[woven flint]

It can manipulate objects

A boulder.. is an object 🤯

[valid geyser]

i didnt say it could or couldn't. I just said i didnt know what the fine control part could mean in a fight

[robust fable]

This would be an improvised situation where the DM finds himself against a group of optimizers who are attempting to use the rules (of the game you are playing) to win. At that point the DM gets annoyed and cheats?

[crystal latch]

Going with 2wiz2lock because I consider it the best party comp
8.1 damage from rays of frost
19 damage from EBARBs
27.1 DPR vs AC 18 ignoring our crit chance, 7 rounds to kill it with cantrips before factoring in animate dead contributions

[tawdry sentinel]

Fog cloud makes everything a flat roll. Because you can't see them disadvantage, but they can't see you, advantage.

Wanna shoot someone 500 yards away who is lying prone and taking the dodge action. Fog cloud. 🙃

This is the wonderful world of reading the rules as strictly as possible and just 🤮

[timid current]

This is a fascinating #optimization discussion

[north hawk]

Peoples imaginations don't fit into RAW (DM and Player) 90% of the time, and most times you just have to use the rules as guidelines.

[north hawk]

It's not cheating.

[umbral girder]

It’s fun how it entirely falls apart with the Hide action too.

[timid current]

You'll find a nice white room to discuss fractions of a damage point and how many rounds statistically it takes to optimally do whatever over in #optimization

[crystal latch]

The 5e rules represent a world that makes no sense on many levels, but you don't randomly decide not to use them in the same way that you don't argue that you should have more than two knights based on medieval historical accuracy in the middle of a game of chess

[umbral girder]

Especially since you auto fail the checks that need your sight because of the Fog Cloud

[woven flint]

PREACH! someone finally said it 😭

[dapper cloud]

That’s extremely dumb and I wouldn’t rule it that way.

[burnt valley]

Another baseless white room accusation, they're flinging the buzz word everywhere like with the AL folk

[dapper cloud]

If you can see through magical darkness, you can see through fog.

[crimson gulch]

No

[robust fable]

No

[burnt valley]

No

[naive cedar]

White room?

[crimson gulch]

Darkness is not fog

[tawdry sentinel]

Beholder with a bunch of spectator underlings because it only specified beholder eye beams not working in the cone 🙃

[valid geyser]

also hypothetically, couldn't the disintigration ray destroy some of the fog? it all depends if the fog is considered a "creation of magical force"

[naive cedar]

No

[woven flint]

It's not dumb

Fog Cloud isn't an illusion, it's an effect that hinders things regardless of Sight besides Tremor Sense and Blindsight

True Sight allows you to see through illusions and into the etheral plane
Nothing says fog won't prevent you from seeing anything lol

[valid geyser]

although id assume that more refers to like, wall of force and stuff

[robust fable]

You are ignoring the rules (aka cheating)

[timid current]

Doling out fractional damage numbers and probabilities of how many turns is literally white room stuff- nothing stayed takes into effect other player actions, monster actions, terrain, or other extenuating circumstances

[blissful ibex]

Fog Cloud explicitly Breaks Line of Sight per the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide, Page 45, 'Line of Sight'

[timid current]

So, it's best for #optimization

[burnt valley]

Don't think about it, it's just another buzzword that has no meaning

[spring light]

if the dm is ruling it a certain way, we can call it a "house rule" instead of cheating

[woven flint]

True Sight doesn't mean you're immune to all visual effects

[woven flint]

That's also true

[timid current]

I don't know why people are allergic to posting optimization stuff in the optimization channel

[halcyon bison]

Technically the DM can't cheat
They can definetly make silly rulings, but "the DM says so" IS a rule

[spring light]

but still. fog cloud would disrupt true sight/true seeing.
we have things like blindsight for dealing with visual obstructions like fog

[crystal latch]

Rule zero or whatever variation should, at best, be considered permission to homebrew, not "every change the DM makes is RAW"

[north hawk]

I would say if a DM is being inconsistent in his rulings he is 'in spirit' cheating. But generally it's all fair game.

[crystal latch]

The game is telling you that you may modify it, but the modified product is not the same product

Ship of Theseus but here I think it's pretty clear that every single plank must remain the same for it to be the same ship

[spring light]

it's still d&d, but now RAW d&d

[woven flint]

The glorious
"Rocks fall. You die." Moment /joking

[valid geyser]

i dont think they ever argued that. they just said toward fog cloud not counting as an illusion being "I think thats dumb and I wouldn't rule it that way" not "nuh uh your argument is invalid because i dont like it"

[robust fable]

If you are ignoring half the rules of dnd then its not dnd

[spring light]

it's still d&d

[halcyon bison]

I agree
I'm not saying DMs should always just do whatever they want, but the DM is still the DM and I don't have anything against them changing things for the purpose of making things more fun

[spring light]

you might have more fun playing a different game though.

[north hawk]

I would agree that ignoring half the rules would be extreme.

[woven flint]

True Sight is already plenty strong imo
I think it's okay for things to have things obscure it

[valid geyser]

I hope this doesnt come off as rude but
how much strictly RAW D&D do you play?

[steel moth]

dnd in a sense can be anything in the same way that the phb can be anything if you donate it to a paper recycling plant

[spring light]

my table is mostly RAW or RAI if RAW is muddled.

[steel moth]

play lancer instead

[robust fable]

You see i like chess but i replaced the board with the board from Monopoly and the pieces with snakes and ledders. But its still chess because i call it chess and there are black and white snakes and ledders ahh moment

[crystal latch]

My level of RAW is somewhere around "the laws of the universe dictate that nobody ever sleeps holding a teddy bear" (sleeping = unconscious which causes you to drop what you're holding)

[dapper cloud]

I think it’s more that, for me, if something can see through Darkness it should see through Fog Cloud. I’ve always read Trusight as objectively better as Blindsight, but if they do something different that’s maybe better and more interesting.

[robust fable]

If you read it that way, you can't read

[crystal latch]

Sorry, teddy fish*

[spring light]

do you have the feat that lets you sleep in armor?

[tall musk]

How would i join an online campaign and find people who are passionate about the world and roleplaying? i’m new to the online dnd but there isn’t anyone in person that i can play with.

[north hawk]

100%. My point of view is this: The DM isn't a computer. They have an imagination, and want to have fun too. A lot of the time imagination gets shackled by RAW. At that point you use RAW as a guideline and improvise. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water (RAW), you use them to make good improvised decisions to make the game more fun and exciting.

[still plover]

Check the listings in #looking-for-players for games that want people, read the details, respond as appropriate and cross your fingers.

Type /looking and select the option for #looking-for-dm to advertise yourself as a new player in search of a group. Be sure to include your regular availability!

There are other Discord servers where people gather for games. You can find them in #looking-for-community .

Aside from here, you could also try LFG areas in sites like Reddit, Roll20 or the D&D Beyond forums to get started.

[crystal latch]

That doesn't require a feat though?

[burnt valley]

or swse

[crystal latch]

Real, SWSE is unironically where WOTC game design peaked

[burnt valley]

Lol

[valid geyser]

i was asking this because I really dont think that their about "playing d&d wrong" point holds any water unless they're actually playing d&d instead of just talking about it on the internet

[boreal portal]

Hey guys

[steel moth]

Hello

[wanton sorrel]

yo

[prime axle]

Hello

[robust fable]

Hi!

[prime axle]

😛😛

[spring light]

Armchair DM?

[valid geyser]

is that referring to a term or a person? either way i havent heard about it

[robust fable]

99.99% RAW, i only ignore rules that make the game unplayable like desired effect

[spring light]

a term: an armchair doctor, armchair lawyer, etc etc.
Someone who doesn't do the thing, but likes to pontificate on it from their armchair

[robust fable]

I do play dnd

Last time i played was yesterday

[jovial shadow]

Close to 100%, only deviate where the rule is vaguely written or the sort.

[prime axle]

I love playing dnd. My players are so.... mhm!!

[spring light]

oh yeah, just remembered another standing houserule i use: held actions
you don't have to state what you're holding or what the trigger is. If you wanna hold your action for this round, just tell me what you want to do and when it goes off - WHEN you want to do it.

"I'm holding my action"
okay.

"Oh! That guy who's running into the room! I wanna use my held action on him now!"

[tardy bronze]

There go my plans

[spring light]

were you the guy running into the room?

[north hawk]

I used to play 100% RAW, but now I do more 80-90% RAW. There comes a point where running everything RAW get's boring.

[tardy bronze]

How else am i gonna find a game

[north hawk]

For me personally.

[robust fable]

You were almost certainly not 100% RAW

[vale sage]

Hey y'all question

[prime axle]

Yes? :)

[vale sage]

Does anyone know of any wild West themed games?

[valid geyser]

i wouldnt consider someone playing 100% RAW unless theyre doing stuff like 6-8 encounter adventuring days most of the time

[vale sage]

Or possibly any Warhammer40k campaigns?

I would love to make a space cowboy

[woven flint]

I know there's a Warhammer TTRPG somewhere out there

[prime axle]

I personally am doing a campaign where I add it in, i dont know any official ways. Sorry. Also that idea of a space cowboy sounds sick!!!!

[north hawk]

Okay then I suppose it was more 98% RAW.

[spring light]

you might like Spelljammer, if you want space cowboys.

[halcyon bison]

I don't DM that often, so as a player I'd say I prefer less RAW
Especially at the weak points of D&D's system, like stealth and social interaction

[woven flint]

I'd love to be in a western campaign one day 😔

[steel moth]

I dm more than playing

[robust fable]

6-8 encounter days are easy

[prime axle]

I plan to do one on Mondays with my current group next year after this campaign

[vale sage]

i’m a forever dm so i’ve kinda given up on the idea of being a player lol

[crisp lake]

Same here (liking less RAW, not mostly player), but then you also have to make it

[steel moth]

unironically I enjoy dming more than being a player so being a forever dm isnt a bad spot for me

[halcyon bison]

I wish I had more opportunities to DM but I lack access to players
Also I'm scared :(

[vale sage]

i like dming a lot, but i also like being a player

[prime axle]

Facts bro. I love being a dm. My campaign started as a one shot and the other dm hasnt played in so long we just call her campaign the one shot. She had maybe 6 total campaigns while ive had around 26

[woven flint]

I have an idea for a Western Themed Undead Warlock Changling fellow
His Patron is a Vengeful Revenant and when he kills people, he adds their appearance to his collection of facades

[steel moth]

players are generally supportive, you are dming for them afterall and most of them appreciate it

[vale sage]

i want to run frontiers of eberron since it’s western-ish

[spring light]

try looking at local game stores, libraries, cafes, school/university clubs

[prime axle]

Lowkey could I use this as inspo for my western town?

[steel moth]

if you are a student uni clubs are generally where you look

[woven flint]

I like to call the fella "Dead Man Walking"
Maybe cause he doesn't have a real name? 🧐

[woven flint]

Hmmm, sure!

[robust fable]

I like the encounter designing part of dming

Its so funny to make fights that 99% of tables would tpk and complain about it being broken, then the party wins with no difficulty

[vale sage]

Ngl id love to find an Appalachian themed campaign one day

[prime axle]

I wont just rip it off, dw. I plan to just add some themes i think of with that into my campaign! Full credit applied!

[vale sage]

Atm I have a campaign I wna eventually Make but idk how to make maps

[spring light]

i've wanted to do an appalachian themed Changeling the Dreaming game

[short glade]

Ever tried out Savage Worlds:Deadlands?

[woven flint]

I'm flattered Xp

[vale sage]

I have not

[vale sage]

i’ve ran it in maryland, had a great time

Iv heard of it tho!

Tbh id love to make a campaign around the culture of rural Appalachian hillfolk

Like,make it pure horror and beauty

[short glade]

Look into that. It’s weird-western set in an alternate time line post civil-war America.

It tends toward more rural settings than other games.

[spring light]

i've thought about a quiet appalachian town where everyone's part of the same freehold, but trouble arises when trouble comes to town!
now it's up to the changelings to keep things underwraps!

[vale sage]

Imagine as a party seeing a deer turn into a skinwalker

[steel moth]

tbf I just like cool robots and 5e lowered my standards massively

[vale sage]

It would be horrifying

Especially if you made them mimic you party's voices and forms

[woven flint]

Honestly
My Westerm Changing Undead Warlock takes a BIT of inspiration from the Courier from Fallout: New Vegas.
Taken to a secluded house and shot, left for dead.. but a Vengeful Spirit took pity on him... or perhaps saw him as a tool to kindle his fiery revenge 🧐

"I just wanted to deliver a chip, damnit!"

[vale sage]

Imagine your coming down a trail with your party and you start hearing your bard sing off in the distance but he's right next to you

[halcyon bison]

I'm playing in an Appalachia themed campaign and there's a 98% chance of that happening
We literally left off last session in the middle of fighting a different variety of deer-shapeshifters

[spring light]

happens all the time.

[vale sage]

It would be so scary 😭

[woven flint]

Just an average Tuesday

[vale sage]

Personally I'm from Pennsylvania so I have pretty good exposure to all that sorta stuff

[spring light]

don't reveal personally identifying details in this server

[steel moth]

fridge on a bridge

[vale sage]

From a culture pov and in my personal life I feels like I could dm it to be terrible

[vale sage]

true, although in the US the states are so dang large that it isn’t as much as an issue imo but i get ya

[spring light]

server rules.

[vale sage]

Fair enough

gotcha

[woven flint]

Hello, Cicada :]

[vale sage]

i would like to run eberron some time but with pre written settings i struggle to let myself change things

Still, if I did It right I could make an Appalachian campaign scary enough to make most people have nightmares

Even in the cultural sense there's things in applachia that scare the locals to a point where as a people it's looked down upon to talk about

[spring light]

we'll run a campaign about trying to maintain a decent standard of living when all the adventuring jobs barely pay enough to put rations around the campfire.

[vale sage]

Lmao

[woven flint]

I'm gonna be in an Eberron Campaign soon

Playing a Warforged Forge Druid named Sentry. (He's got the mark of sentinel lol)

[vale sage]

Like,

If you hear a baby cryin in the woods it ain't a baby

i’d love to play a shifter

[woven flint]

It's actually me 😔

[vale sage]

Go back in your house,it's tryna lure you in

they’re so fun, the art in forge of the artificer for them is so neat

It's either a mountain lion or some form of horrfic unknowable creature

[woven flint]

I played a Shifter Twilight Cleric of Dol Arrah in another Eberron game I was in

[vale sage]

In my personal life iv seen alot of things that I can't really explain

Its part of living in applachia,from mane to Virginia

Maine? Mane?

maine

i am mid atlantic too so i get you lol

Iv seen everything from what I can only assume are skinwalkers to big foot

[minor cargo]

If ever you need inspiration, you should share ghost stories with southeast Asians lol Everything is haunted there.

[short glade]

I’ve seen things I can’t explain where I live too-mostly the way people choose to behave.

[vale sage]

UFOs,thunder birds, ghosts, knomes very rarely, sasquatch, wendigo ( when I was very young) and probably more I dont remember

I mean at one point I saw werewolves but I don't know if it was me tweaking because of the mold in my old house or if I saw something I wasn't supposed to lmao

[burnt valley]

True

6 Stone Warriors (PotA) in a 50ft wide and 20ft high room with magic items disabled effect is funny

[north hawk]

I'd have to see Sasquatch with my own eyes or I wouldn't believe it. Even then I still might not believe it.

[small heath]

Yo chat. My Lizardfolk Ranger character got approved for this Grim Hallow session I'm joining.

I'm excited!

[timid current]

There isn't any evidence of an unknown extant large mammal in North America. No bones, fur, verifiable footprints, spoor, no photos, videos, DNA evidence of any kind.

As much as it's a buzz kill there really isn't anywhere for a breeding population of a large mammal to exist in North America undetected

Now in D&D hell yeah yeti even have horns like wampas

[jolly fox]

someone sent me a request and is talking kinda robotically, so just wondering if scamming and stuff here is something to watch out for in the server

[wanton sorrel]

there will always be scams everywhere.... it's best to ignore them and send them into block list

[jolly fox]

fair enough, thanks

[stray sage]

Here is a fun question, who is your favorite demon prince in the setting and why?

[wanton sorrel]

hmmm.... demogorgon because of a tv series.

[stray sage]

You are aware stranger things Demogorgon is nothing like the D&D one right?

[wanton sorrel]

well it does say that in the books

[stray sage]

What?

Which book?

[wanton sorrel]

the Devil, Metal, Die! book...

the 4th map

[buoyant oar]

That is a tie in book. For the TV show

[wanton sorrel]

well its' the only one i know.

[stray sage]

Yeah that isn’t canon to the forgotten realms

[buoyant oar]

The demogorgan is featured prominently. On the cover of Out of the Abyss

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Out_of_the_Abyss

[stray sage]

My personal favorite demon lord is probably Baphomet, I like the idea of a nature demon

[wanton sorrel]

so the demogorgan is still a prince.... well... i wonder if that still counts....???

[dawn bison]

Yo Im kinda wondering, is any use of ai during character creation frowned upon? I dont use it to decide things for me or make things for me, but I do use it to sum up rules and lists of choices before deciding based on my own opinions, is that fair game?

[potent vector]

Y'all, I'm reading Abt Bismuth, and WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN JUST THROW IT IN A REACTOR AND MAKE GOLD. (I swear this DND related, just give me a sec)

[dawn bison]

Like I use my own personal creativity for most of it but I dont understand all the choices yet

[north hawk]

I like Juiblex. There's something about a big sentient scary ooze that appeals to me. I haven't used him in a campaign yet but I will one day.

[minor cargo]

I think it's going to depend on each group. It's a good sign you're already thinking about it, though! It'll be easier to have that conversation IMO. ✌️

[potent vector]

Before I make that DND related, yeah that's fair game but still a waste just because the funny awkward builds you can make by not understanding how smth works builds character, especially when you need to justify why your character even has smth lmao

[glass granite]

I usually don’t use it, because AI is quite inconsistent with dnd knowledge. It can’t very effectively discern between 2014 and 2024 rules and sometimes homebrew gets snuck in there.

[potent vector]

If they submit rules to it might be more consistent, but ye, that's def smth to consider

[glass granite]

It’s also that I already know enough of the rules, so I don’t need to use it

[wanton sorrel]

wait how did Juiblex get the title of lord of nothing?

[crimson gulch]

Ai should not be trusted with the rules at all, it will be so wrong

[dawn bison]

Okay, thank you sir!

[dawn bison]

Thats true, thank you, man!

[potent vector]

But back to this, how could I possibly set up two monsters made to turn people into gold? One prob a special Basilisk to make them Bismuth the other with a radiation attack to make them Gold.
Anyone got an idea of who'd coulda been responsible if I ever wanted to run it?

[dawn bison]

Oh okay, thank you very much, I'm gonna keep that in mind and be extra careful

[glass granite]

Yeah each group has different views on AI
I don’t hate it, but I just find it less consistent than just looking through the rules myself

[dawn bison]

Okay, Im just using it to make decisions before putting said answeres on dnd beyond so I hope that its still like valid

[crimson gulch]

You should make your own decisions, that's the joy of this game

[worn lagoon]

I remember in bg3 there was a special variant of flesh to stone called flesh to gold. did exactly what you think it does. could borrow that

[north hawk]

I have no idea. After reading the wiki it seems to be more of a insult to him and his domain. As in his domain is equivalent to nothing.

[wanton sorrel]

fair point... i was like wait a minute how did they get that title...

[potent vector]

Liked the idea of the 2 step process of Bismuth + Radiation attack. Not sure what monster should do the radiation tho (will def keep that Flesh to Gold in mind tho)

Or ofc who should be responsible for their creation

[dawn bison]

I do, I just make sure that I understand what exactly I may decide and in what way, I find the part of personal creativity easy, but I don't have access to the rule books that easily since my local library shares those books with some other libraries in the region

[crimson gulch]

neither dose AI, you are 100% being fed wrong info by it

[dawn bison]

I see, well thanks I'm gonna be more careful and double check all info to make sure its correct

Thank you for the help!

[crimson gulch]

you are very welcome

when all else fails, your dm should be able to provide you the info you need for charicter creation, this game is not played in a bubble afterall

[hollow hedge]

Isn't there a free copy of the rulebook on D&D Beyond?

[wanton sorrel]

yes

[cosmic roost]

Welcome to Adventure!

Visit #learn-to-play for everything you need to get started!

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Basic Rules | Introductory videos | Create a character

[jolly hound]

I’m thinking of playing a 5e monk but can’t decide on subclass do yall have any recommendations

[hollow hedge]

Elemental is a great pick

[wanton sorrel]

there is two jake

[jolly hound]

That’s my simulacrum dw

[hollow hedge]

whats funny is I also play monk-

[potent vector]

Elemental is great ye, since you can Cheese Grater if casters have Spike Growth.

Or taxi, and has decent AOE

[dawn bison]

Me and my friends, including the dm, haven't played the game before so my basic knowledge from borrowing the books a few times over the last 4 years is almost all I have to go of from

[dawn bison]

I didn't notice it before, thank you for bringing it to my attention!

[jolly hound]

I thought it wasn’t very good In 2014 edition? I haven’t looked too much at that one

[wanton sorrel]

i play monk.. Warrior of the opened hand subclass

[potent vector]

Reread, nvm, not in 5e

[halcyon forum]

2014 and 2024 are both 5e

you got to specify

[potent vector]

They just specified 2014

[jolly hound]

I thought 2024 was specified as 5.5 mb

[halcyon forum]

yeah but did not before

not officially. some people call it that

[wanton sorrel]

the thing is i don't understand why make a 2024 5e even though 2014 is also 5e

ya know what it's best to keep thinking about it... and have nightmares... upon which is better.

[jolly hound]

Any recommendations for 2014 monk subs thoooo?

[potent vector]

OW2 versus just OW moment

[halcyon forum]

its a remaster

[rough basalt]

2014 5e was the original rushed out the door and 2024 is 10 years of experience fixing it coming to fruition

Tho fixing was more make it so 5e has negligable issues to minor ones instead of moderate to major ones.

[potent vector]

Astral Self is fun since you can Wisdom max.

[rough basalt]

This is somewhat accurate

The difference is they didn't rip out the 2014 from 2024, they just added onto it and fixed stuff.

[potent vector]

Except not even because there's evidence recently they're gonna drop the 2 😭

[jolly hound]

This is a beautiful concept

[valid geyser]

from a business perspective, new edition hype while trying to keep people who might be scared of a new edition
but yes, wanting to fix stuff is still a reason and a good one

[wanton sorrel]

you do have a good point.

[livid slate]

what do y'all think of the fighter action surge? It feels kinda weak to me tbh

[potent vector]

It even makes their strength checks and Strength Saves use Wis instead of Strength

[valid geyser]

it's not weak at all. lets fighters do lots of burst damage

[livid slate]

But only once?

[glass granite]

Strong, very scary with casters in 2014, but usually not worth going 2 levels out of your way just for it

[valid geyser]

per short rest. If youre short resting often it's almost once a fight

[livid slate]

Ive never liked how limited it is even though its like a main ability

[livid slate]

2024 nerfed that ;-;

[glass granite]

Just can’t be used with the magic action anymore

[potent vector]

I've ended encounters turn 1 with well timed action surges.

[valid geyser]

it does compound when you get more attacks. You get the ability to double your damage for a turn kinda

[glass granite]

(Assuming you don’t have a bonus action attack, in which case it’s a lil less than double)

[rough basalt]

Action surge is a scaling ability

[glass granite]

Indeed

[livid slate]

Oh wow

[rough basalt]

It starts out good but gets crazier as game goes on

Cause iirc you get 2 or 3 charges as you go on

[glass granite]

It’s with action surge that some fighters can get 10 attacks in one turn and still have their bonus action free

Ok wait my math is off, they need their bonus action

[rough basalt]

Give a level 20 fighter a vicious greatsword alone and action surge and that's 32d6 damage + mods if all hit without crits

And at level 20 you're likely rarely missing

[valid geyser]

also making a lot of attacks means stuff like more chances to crit or proc things that happen on a hit

[rough basalt]

Ye and if you do crit even once, that's an extra attack as a BA with GWM

[potent vector]

Or using important items/moving somewhere vital while keeping the action economy

[timid current]

Because ten years of data and updates and design meant that they could redo stuff they weren't satisfied with and make a better, easier to use, more robust system

[wanton sorrel]

ok

[rough basalt]

Each new corebook addressed issues it's 2014 counterpart had

[potent vector]

Except with Ranger in phb. They're still the worst class 😭