#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 91 of 1

grim siren
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Find Thay and look Due South on any map.

calm crest
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Mulhorand was originally founded by Egyptians abducted from Earth. Unther is the same, but with Sumerians.

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I’m not sure what the second one Dre’s thinking of, for the Forgotten Realms at least.

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Mystara has both Thothia on the Known World and Nithia which was relocated to the Hollow World, but that’s a completely different setting.

grim siren
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They were taken by the most powerful Humans ever to exist, the Imaskari. Who at their height held lands from the Vilhon Reach in the West to the Seas beyond Kara-Tur in the East. And from Yal Tengri to the north to the furrowed mountains of Zakhara to the south.

thick sentinel
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Taken?

calm crest
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Magically kidnapped through a Gate.

thick sentinel
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Murghôm is the other perhaps?

grim siren
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The Imaskari were masters of planar magic. They opened up vast portals and took thousands of slaves. They are even able to prevent the gods of these peoples from helping them.

jagged apex
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yeah cuz humans from earth have no connection to or talent for arcane magic, as earth in dnd is a giant dead magic zone

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hard to fight back against a group of powerful wizards when up until then you were pretty sure magic was not real and regardless had no magic of your own

grim siren
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They weren't the taken people. They are the descendants of the takers.

jagged apex
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elements of Egyptian culture and faiths were taken from earth to toril by the people, and they passed it down most likely, those people potentially dwelling in different lands

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so is potentially in universe at least just do to the people from earth and their decendands spreading out but still holding to those old cultures from their original world

thick sentinel
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Why is it Abeir-Toril in some places? What's the Abeir part about?

jagged apex
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that is the sister world that was created as part of the conclusion of the dawn war

calm crest
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Abeir is a parallel world Sundered from Toril.

grim siren
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Abeir-Toril is the original name for the planet. During the dawn wars the world was Sundered into two.

Abeir has five continents

Shyr
Marranth
Irronther
Laerakond
Lhoraun

jagged apex
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the name became split between the two worlds, the main one given to the gods is toril, abeir was given to the primordials and the gods not allowed to interact with

calm crest
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It was introduced in the 4e content, and has remained extant despite much of 4e being retconned.

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It’s the origin of (the vast majority of) Dragonborn on Toril.

jagged apex
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yeah basically 4e was undone save for the parts that were well received and were worked into 5e's continuity

grim siren
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When Mystra was murdered by Cyric in 1385 by Dale Reckoning, parts of Barrier between Abeir and Toril burned away and lands and people's flowed from one to the other.

The continent of Maztica vanished to the world of Abeir.

In the trackless sea beyond Faerûn's West Coast came Laerakond, (called Returned Abeir) by Faerûnians.

A region called Tymanchebar merged with Unther can became the land of Tymanther.

thick sentinel
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Did the Egyptians and Sumerians from Earth also go to Abeir?

grim siren
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Actually yes. Unther was sent to Abier.

jagged apex
calm crest
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Although the Untherites would’ve been millennia removed from their Sumerian ancestors by that point.

grim siren
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So when they returned in the late 1400s they were really upset that there was a bunch of "Godless Lizards" running amok of their lands.

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After the two sides clashed for years they even brought the blood war to Faerûn as one side hired devils to work for them and the other side hired demons.

In the end. Unther crushed the will of the Dragonborn and restored their borders.

jagged apex
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and most people on both worlds especially among mortals, have no clue about the details of abeir and toril's situation that we know as the readers, hense why the dragonborn had a hard time accepting the idea that dragons could be "not evil" let alone a dragon god

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can only imagine what the unther might have gone through on abier being cut off from their gods more or less

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especially since that world is ruled by dragons of all sorts

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a mortal person is gunna have a hard time handling 1 dragon without any sort of magic or divine aid, let alone the vast amount that likely were all over abeir

thick sentinel
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Did Elminster ever go to Abeir? Or travel to when Abeir-Toril was together?

grim siren
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It didn't help that Tymanchebar was a rebel cell of the Laerakondan nation of Skelkor. Ruled by Gauwervyndhal, the empress. A dragon so old no living soul knows what type of dragon she is.

jagged apex
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not to my knowledge, far as i know he was not even born until after the two worlds were separated

grim siren
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Elminster has spoken to someone from Abeir.

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You can hear what they have to say here.

jagged apex
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yeah he was not even born until 212 DR and only case of time travel i know of him doing is technically that portal he keeps open in a lair on another in realmspace that is constantly set to a specific year and place on earth on the other end https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elminster

grim siren
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The worlds were split in -31,000 DR. Long before Elminster yea.

calm crest
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I can’t recall, was Elminster dead during the 4e era?

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I know he’s been brought back to life a few times.

jagged apex
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i know he died at one point and possessed a drow body for a time

calm crest
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I also know that the 4e century long time jump meant that a lot of famous characters had to have bizarre leaps of coincidence to keep them alive for 5e, like Minsc being petrified and Volo experiencing a magical mishap.

jagged apex
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there is also the time he was held hostage in hell, not sure if you'd technically count that since the outerplanes are the afterlife for most mortals and you can get stuck there being influenced by the energies last i checked if you are there long enough

calm crest
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Sounds less embarrassing than Mordenkainen being stranded in Barovia…

jagged apex
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far as i can tell, he lived through 4e's events, but basically was driven closer to insanity when he used his magic

calm crest
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Gotcha.

jagged apex
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hard to tell what edition his deaths were all in, at least for me, as they seem to largely be in novels

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ah, seems he may have been dead after all as the wiki puts it "As El learned to navigate his new bodiless existence, Storm discovered a means of permanently curing Alassra of her madness: by helping her consume one of the powerful blueflame items seemingly created during the Spellplague."

calm crest
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Looks like he died in 1479 DR, so pretty late into the Spellplague.

steep merlin
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I was wondering, how should a hill goliath look like? I have been thinking about making a hill goliath character, but have no good idea on how to portray them

jagged apex
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though at the very least, given hill giants are all about eating and their guts, giving them a bit of a beer belly esc gut sounds pretty on brand, if that helps at all

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otherwise can be expected to look likely like any other goliath

timid tendon
karmic belfry
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Hi there, correct me if I'm wrong but, does the word "drow" mean exiled in elvish?

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On a side note, I'm searching for some more info about the Spider Wars, those that happened when the drow were exiled from the surface and eneded up battling the dwarves of Shanatar, but when searching I always get infor about the war of the spider queen novels instead, which is a different conflict

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Could someone point me up to a written article about it please?

jagged apex
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i am unaware of any event called "the spider wars" in published materials

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the war of the spider queen is more so the name of an arc of 6 novels that explore the drow and their power from lolth and themes of power, betrayal, and survival from what i can find, it may not be an actual war

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is worth noting as you will see on there, it is incomplete, but is the closest thing i know outside of just reading the 6 books themselves to get the full info

jagged apex
# karmic belfry Could someone point me up to a written article about it please?

from what i can find there are not actual articles, at least not on the forgotten realms wiki, and the mentions of it don't seem to have citation and the article is incomplete, is possible Ed Greenwood himself may be able to shed some light on the subject if you were to ask him, as it is his setting and i imagine if anyone would know more about it, it would be him

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so best i can think is to try to ask Ed Greenwood and see if he can shed some light, else seems to be something we know little beyond the supposed mention of

karmic belfry
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Thanks, yes, that is the conflict I'm talking about

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Appreciate your help

wispy fable
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So i just learned about the lore on Araushnee/lloth, Corellon, and Sehanine story. It was pretty neat!

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It just made me want to learn more about Gruumsh more than anything

bright eagle
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do tritons cook their prey?

opaque island
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What’s a triton?

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0.0

copper rivet
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sea elf

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or somthign

calm crest
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They’re not sea-elves. Tritons are amphibious fish-like humanoids.

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Given their origin on the Elemental Plane of Water, I would doubt they’d cook their food.

dark comet
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I believe even the elemental plane of water has underwater vents. So you could cook your food in the sense that you can apply direct heat to it?

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That said, I don't think there's any "lore" that says "Yes, Tritons cook food". I'm just extrapolating. :)

unkempt merlin
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Its definitely a thing in Eberron (where Triton are a bauplan of mermaid) but I can't speak for other settings

jagged apex
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though since is not detailed at all is likely one of those things that is ment to be left up to the dm and their own reasoning

rocky arch
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Do the Dark Powers (of the Ravenloft settings) have a symbol or sigil? I know various deities and such do, but I wasn’t sure if the Dark Powers, as an entity, had one?

calm crest
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They aren’t deities and are not worshipped as such. They have no collective symbol.

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The only somewhat fleshed out Dark Power is the Red Death, who manipulates Gothic Earth and exists beyond the Domains of Dread.

jagged apex
# rocky arch Do the Dark Powers (of the Ravenloft settings) have a symbol or sigil? I know va...

in 5e at least there is one god that is noted within the domains of dread, via a side bar, "Ezera, God of The Mists", and otherwise it is left unclear if the gods worshiped in the domains of dread are actually those gods, a manifestation of the dark powers, or one impersonating the other, is covered in the 3rd chapter of "Vanrichten's guide to ravenloft" which is about life in the domains of dread

jagged apex
drowsy wraith
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what are some ways to connect the Barbarian world tree subclass to the forgotten realms?

calm crest
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Their cosmology is/was the World Tree model.

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It’s kinda the most appropriate setting for them.

unkempt merlin
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Yea world tree barb sorta fits just entirely as is

timid tendon
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Reflavor based on their species and place of origin, maybe

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An elf drawing power from the latent magic of cormanthor

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For example

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Orc drawing from the rituals that sent them to faerun via the orcgates

jagged apex
timid tendon
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That too

jagged apex
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no reworking is really nessassary at all

timid tendon
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Easiest way without customizing it to your character

jagged apex
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which would just be extra work for the sake of extra work more than anything

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also we know for a fact that yggdrasil is still a thing in the current continuity since it appears in the 2024 books

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which are setting agnostic and far as i know the forgotten realms never introduced any lore that cut it off from the world ash

timid tendon
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Well theres the 4e restructuring of the cosmos but everyone hated that so its ignored

jagged apex
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and even then, last i checked, the return to the great wheel cosmology has thus left it connected to the world ash

true patio
feral lintel
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ok im stupid, at what age does a wyrmling become young?

unkempt merlin
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wyrmling is typically up to 5 years- but dragon age categories aren't determined solely via chronological age

feral lintel
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yeah, needs hoards too

tranquil fog
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Question. What happens to a fey when it's killed?

jagged apex
cloud marten
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seeing that goblins are now fey what happens to them when they're killed might happen to all fey

jagged apex
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no idea, is worth remembering the new core books, including the ones where goblins appear in the monster manual, are setting agnostic, so could depend if they primarily live on the prime material plane or not, that said, in the new books to my knowledge they made so to mechanically reflect this in their statblocks such as with the celestials and fiends in the books, given the goblin statblock lack such a refference, presumably one can assume they would behave the same as if you slayed a human, elf, orc, bear, ect...

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so unless some more setting specific lore says otherwise, i am inclined to believe nothing special like what happens with celestials and fiends happens

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at least in the current continuity of 5e

cloud marten
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so now fey die when they're killed

unkempt merlin
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some fey, and generally they always have

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but as scarlet alluded to, it depends on the setting

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(and the specific fey)

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creature type has no inherent rules in 5e either so its not good to try and go off that

tranquil fog
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What about elementals? Do they come back or stay dead?

unkempt merlin
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same thing, it depends and it varies

jagged apex
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and in newer books, if they simply return to their home plane, it will usually if not always be mechanically reflected somewhere in the statblock

modest badger
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Again, only Fiends have explicitly returned to their realms when killed. Others have not historically had that rule and just die.

quick gate
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Which remaining dragonborn, tho?

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Tymanther doesn't exist anymore, and the text on Djerad Thymar is so vague that you don't know if the city is still an independent thing or not (or even if it is still inhabited)

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Not to mention that the text on the dragonborn specifically say that the survivors now live in small villages in the other Old Empires, left to the Calim Desert, or to other places in Faerûn

burnt plinth
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Did Tasha have any siblings

quick gate
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I don't know if they are acknowledged in 5e, tho

modest badger
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In 5e, for creatures that return to their own plane upon 'dying':
Demons

Eternal Evil. Outside the Abyss, death is a minor nuisance that no demon fears. Mundane weapons can't stop these fiends, and many demons are resistant to the energy of the most potent spells. When a lucky hero manages to drop a demon in combat, the fiend dissolves into foul ichor. It then instantly reforms in the Abyss, its mind and essence intact even as its hatred is inflamed. The only way to truly destroy a demon is to seek it in the Abyss and kill it there.
MM 2014 p.50, 'Demons' , same for 'Demon lords' MM p.51

Devils

If it dies outside the Nine Hells, a devil disappears in a cloud of sulfurous smoke or dissolves into a pool of ichor, instantly returning to its home layer, where it reforms at full strength. Devils that die in the Nine Hells are destroyed forever- a fate that even Asmodeus fears.
MM 2014 p.67, Infernal hierarchy

In the MM 2024, Many Fiends have some form of 'Fiendish Restoraration' that returns them to their own plane upon death (Arcanaloth's go to Gehenna, Balor to the abyss, Rakshasa to hell so on) but not all. I can't tell if there is a general rule anymore or if it's independent to the specific creature.
5e Planescape, Morte's Planar Parade (2023) p.4 extends the general rule to Celestials and 'Petitioners' as well:

Mortals that die eventually have their souls return as petitioners in far-flung reaches of the Outer Planes. There, they manifest as idealized versions of themselves. These forms might be similar to the forms they had in life or be those of entirely different creatures. A petitioner or another Celestial or Fiend that is destroyed can reconstitute on a plane that shares its alignment after 100 years, or it might choose to become one with that plane and never return.

You can see this with certain celestials too in MM'24 (Deva, Planetar, Solar) but again, not all.

quick gate
quick gate
modest badger
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Also, linking back to here for the rest of it for older editions. It was only Fiends that, since the first editions, didn't die if killed outside their planes. Later a few other planar beings (Monodrones, Planetars) were added, which is were we see now Specific/ all celestials also falling under this rule.

But for other planar beings, this appears to be a misconception either based on Fiends + a few specific others, or the 3.5 rule that summoned creatures didn't die and were sent back to their own planes.

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And much like last time, if folk do actually have a source from any edition that says all planar beings/ Outsiders, regardless of type, return to their homeplane if killed, please do link, folk have been searching for that source for years to try and figure out where this common perception comes from.

grim siren
quick gate
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In Calimshan

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I'm still adapting to that change

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Pro tip: Never get emotionally involved with your D&D game. WotC doesn't care if it damages your 10+ years old campaign to force their "super cool new idea" on you.

jagged apex
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well given their history, i feel the land is the least important part of dragonborn culture, so better to lose a land that technically was not even originally their's than lose something they care far more about

jagged apex
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in short, it only damages things if you let it, thus you have nobody to blame but yourself, just cuz it is in published materials does not mean you are forced to use it, it has never ment that to my knowledge

quick gate
jagged apex
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that is not what it means

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your own games and campaigns have always been allowed, even encouraged to be able to deviate from the established lore

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by your logic the moment your party got involved in an adventure your campaign would be without support

modest badger
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Getting a little off topic, but indeed this is nothing new (lore changes between each edition and setting, and folk have always run homebrew games).

In this channel all we do is just help answer what officially published lore has been on a topic.

jagged apex
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yeah you can take the lore or leave it as you see fit with your own games, the choice has always been yours especially if you are the dm

quick gate
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Those deviations will never get official support. And if I have to create that background myself, I may as well stop using the FR and make a homebrew setting.

jagged apex
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you seem to greatly misunderstand fundimental aspects of dnd

modest badger
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You could always bring this up in #dnd-discussion or #dm-discussion but I think you'll find many folk mix homebrew with official.

But this is getting offtopic for this channel.

quick gate
jagged apex
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again you misunderstand some very core details, that or you are oversimplifying, and this is getting off topic as elgate said

feral lintel
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where is the ping

modest badger
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That is one of the officially published lore, yep. Note again that editions and settings change.

There is no pressure to agree with any piece of lore. or even like it. I certainly don't like some pieces of lore from the past and still will make my own changes to present. This is D&D.

This channel just focuses on trying to give the 'Lore as written'. Can check the pins and channel description for more info. If you feel a piece of lore sparks a discussion of how something is handled, feel free to take it to #dnd-discussion to dig into that!

jagged apex
quick gate
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Most Untherans, not. The evil God who rules them...

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And that wiki article is outdated (I now it because I'm the person who wrote it)

jagged apex
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not really

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his is surely not the nicest deity in his latest incarnation, but is debatable if it is fair to call him out right evil

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i will admit how ever his prior incarnations were lawful evil, but it seems heavily implied the current incarnation is not the original and may be an imposter

quick gate
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Have you read "The Devil You Know", by Erin Evans?

jagged apex
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but even then in dnd evil can be rather nuanced

jagged apex
quick gate
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Ok, then you don't know how evil is the new version of Gilgeam

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I recommend her novels. They are very good

jagged apex
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i admit i don't know much about that incarnation, but i do feel you are oversimplifying things and technically the unther were arguably trying to retake their old land if i recall directly

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besides the forgotten realms to my knowledge has never been described as a "hopeful setting" at least not to the point that is any more or less hopeful as others, so not sure where you got that idea of it being such you mentioned earlier

tranquil fog
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What determines what's good and evil in D&D, especially in regards to celestials and fiends? Because what's good, evil, kind or mean is subjective, and D&D attempts to make that objective, so I'd love info on this. Especially in regards to lore.

jagged apex
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it does not nessissarily try to make it objective

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the outer planes which these beigns hail from are metaphysical and shaped by the collective ideas and thoughts of mortals

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plus it largely has vague definitions at best and nuanced to where context is arguably just as important, your best bet i feel would to be reading the section on alignment and the section on the outer planes in the core 2024 books, each in the phb and dmg respectively

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to quote the phb "A creature’s alignment broadly describes its ethical attitudes and ideals. Alignment is a combination of two factors: one identifies morality (good, evil, or neutral), and the other describes attitudes toward order (lawful, chaotic, or neutral). These factors allow for nine possible combinations, such as Lawful Good and Neutral Evil." end quote it then goes on to direct you to chapter 2 about creating your character

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in short it is anything but cut and dry, it does not have singular universal answers, it is a vague subject at best and on the cosmic level like life in the outer planes such things become even more extreme in these alignments to the point of it being rather alien from a mortal perspective

quick gate
jagged apex
modest badger
# quick gate According to the writing style guide they published in the DM's Guild, the Forgo...

Looks like you've found an intention behind the lore. For reference, here is the full quote:

The Forgotten Realms is a hopeful setting. The good guys will eventually win. This hopeful tone sets the Forgotten Realms apart from settings like Greyhawk (which is cynical) and Dragonlance (which is a setting of romance and tragedy). While not every moment of a story or image in art should be hopeful (the villains need their time in the spotlight, and bad things do happen), keep this tone in mind
Available here: https://www.dmsguild.com/en/product/267467/dms-guild-creator-resource-style-guide-resources

These PDF documents are distributed by Wizards of the Coast to official play writers and are now available for all DMsGuild creators. In addition to the D&D House Style Guide, this package includes tips for adventure design from Chris Perkins and Greg Bilsand, suggestions for how to use D&D IP, and a guide to the Forgotten Realms. Following these style guides is not required to publish on DMsGuild, but they are provided here at the request of our community creators.

This is not official lore, but it's revealing of intentions behind some of the publishers for how they want to shape lore. It was last updated in 2019. The majority of the lore for Tymanther and the dragonborn inhabitants was published in 2008-2016.

Intentions can be helpful to review to see how and why lore was changed, but it's not lore itself, and needs to be placed within context- this being the intention going forward in 5e. 4e had a different tone and intention. In this case as well the intention is clear that not everything needs to be sunshine and roses- just that the setting is hopeful that good will prevail.

dire olive
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Oddly specific question - is there already a written down layer 776 of the abyss?

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I’m asking because I’m making a homebrew layer and I want to pick a number for it

quick gate
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IIRC, there are only 666 layers of the abyss

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But I may be remembering things from older editions

dire olive
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Isn’t there infinite?

grim siren
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The Abyss is infinite.

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Or at least Seemingly infinite.

quick gate
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Yeah, old info. That claim of the 666 layers is from the 3e Manual of the Planes

tranquil fog
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I question how that is determined though. What is good is too undefined, because almost anything can be considered potentially good or evil

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Everyone has different definitions for everything. Like, everyone has a different idea of how sick you are before your end could be considered merciful (like end of life care, DNRs, ect). Taking life is seen as evil, but who decides that, when making it so someone is no longer suffering is often seen as good. Everyone's lines are different. Even if you go by the "the line that the majority are near is the correct line" belief, two people rarely if ever have the same line, so what determines the "majority"?

modest badger
# tranquil fog What determines what's good and evil in D&D, especially in regards to celestials...

Within D&D the planes embody certain concepts. For example:

Abyss:

The Abyss embodies all that is perverse, gruesome, and chaotic. Its virtually endless layers spiral downward into ever more appalling forms.
Each layer of the Abyss boasts a horrific environment that is harsh and inhospitable to mortals. Each layer also reflects the entropic nature of the Abyss.
(Chaotic Evil)

Mount Celestia:

The plane is the model of justice and order, of celestial grace and endless mercy, where angels and champions of good guard against incursions of evil. It is one of the few places on the planes where travelers can let down their guard. Its inhabitants strive constantly to be as righteous as possible.
(Lawful Good)

For Celestials and Fiends they often embody these supernatural/spiritual concepts of alignment.

modest badger
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Please mind our rules on bringing in real life religions.

ionic rivet
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Again please mind the server rules

modest badger
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How this works for mortals is bit different to planar beings who are born from planes that embody specific concepts and alignments. You might also find different planes may have overlapping alignments, but different takes. Both the Beastlands and Bytopia are aligned to Neutral Good, but Beastlands tends more Chaotic and Bytopia more Lawful.

Alignment does have some interesting origins in D&D that are different to how we use the terms in day to day life. They're much more a supernatural force than simply a way of describing the morality of an individual action. More so in earlier editions, but even in 5e Cosmic alignment is a little different to the alignment of ones own PC.

drowsy wraith
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Tell me of the other lands of the forgotten realms. The areas beyond Zakhara, Maztica, and Kara Tur.

jagged apex
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what about?

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you have to be specific, if you just wanna read of general things, you can easily do that via the forgotten realms wiki

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granted most of it is lore from older sources, but still is a good enough place to start unless you are looking for something more specific

timid tendon
quick gate
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Well, I understand they wanted 4e stuff out. 4e is much maligned by the old guard fans and that.

jagged apex
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oversimplification is is literally simplifying too much, which i am fairly certain is what is happening, cuz calling the untheric people evil for taking back their old land from what they saw likely as invader hardly is innately evil if if they are ruled by a god of historically evil alignment

quick gate
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However, of the places added by 4e, Tymanther was the one that was detailed in novels and such. It was worth preserving

drowsy wraith
jagged apex
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also 4e stuff is largely disliked specifically cuz it ignored much of the prexisting lore making all disconnected and disjointed

quick gate
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I guess someone in the writing team really hated 4e, because they undone it so categorically

jagged apex
quick gate
jagged apex
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while i can't really say much since i don't have access to the new books, that sounds far more meta than lore based, like it or not the default published continuity is as it is for the time being and far as i know it is not like the dragonborn themselves are being consumed over the loss of their adoptive home from during 4e

quick gate
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I can provide the text if you wanna. But long story short, is literally described as a hell on earth

timid tendon
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Cartoonishly so if i may add

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Im pretty sure Unther was never described as that bad back in prior eras

jagged apex
quick gate
timid tendon
jagged apex
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my point is, from what i recall, tymanther was not originally the dragonborn's land, at least not where it landed during the spellplague, plus dragonborn culture in the realms seems to put more focus on aspects other than land, like i am not saying they are necessarily justified, but from their perspective it is understandable why they did what they did, from their perspective the dragonborn of tymanther stole their land from them https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Unther#History

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and the dragonborn did not even do this intentionally, they were just as clueless as everyone else what was going on during that time

jagged apex
# quick gate Check DMs

no, like i said i am not gunna try get around it, just am trying to explain it is not clear cut and dry, unlike what you seem to be proclaiming

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the untheric people are not evil for wanting their homeland back that they had dwelled in longer than the dragonborn of tymanther

drowsy wraith
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Any additional information on Osse then? It's basically Australia in the forgotten realms, right?

jagged apex
#

granted they did not exactly make the most ideal or moral choices to go about getting it back, but still that does not make them inherently evil

jagged apex
timid tendon
#

Im not using "inherently" evil as a word here just to be clear, idk about the other convos here

Gilgeam is pretty evil all things considered though

jagged apex
#

granted there are some similarities to australia, as with many of the continent shapes on toril

quick gate
timid tendon
#

Osse doesnt have much mention in the new books either iirc

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

Much like how all Thayans arent all evil Red Wizards

jagged apex
#

yeah

quick gate
#

The thing is, the Untheric people doesn't rule Unther. Gilgeam does, and he kills even his own people if they oppose him (per Heroes of Faerûn)

timid tendon
jagged apex
feral lintel
timid tendon
#

Re: red wizards and what theyve been doing the last few hundred years

jagged apex
#

besides a hopeful setting does not mean 100% of the time the good guys win, they win in the end, but evil gods and their followers very much win from time to time, but in the end the good guys winning likely is ment to reffer to major events and plots such as those you see in adventures such as storm king's thunder, tyranny of dragons, ect...

quick gate
jagged apex
#

for all we know later down the line, gilgeam will be ubserped or the dragonborn take back their adoptive land, or any number of other things that can happen from this point on

quick gate
jagged apex
#

key words "until then"

quick gate
#

If that even happens, because it's a big if

jagged apex
#

and was less evil as a whole and more so Gilgeam specifically

timid tendon
#

Amethyst dragons are teaming up with cormyrean knights to fight evil across the realms
Thats hopeful ig

jagged apex
#

like far as i know, this would likely have 0 impact in the grand scheme of "evil" even just on toril

#

plus you can easily turn this into a plot hook for an adventure in your own campaign

timid tendon
#

Im at least relieved that the restructuring of the Purple Dragon Knights was a recent development and not a retcon like how the UA implied

jagged apex
#

it is not ment to be an end all be all, basically just the more recent info we have on what is going down, even then it is not entirely present day

tranquil fog
#

If elementals die, do they return to the elemental plane of their origin as the same kind of elemental?

timid tendon
#

Most likely

jagged apex
merry rune
#

elementals arent from the higher planes

#

they dont have the kinds of souls that other humanoids might have

timid tendon
#

As in, fire elemental returns to the plane of fire, comes back as a being of fire in some way

merry rune
#

when they die, their magical energy just returns to the elemental plane

jagged apex
#

they are extra planar

merry rune
#

they are one with the plane

jagged apex
#

plus elementals as a energy beings and elemental forces at that, their concept of life is entirely alien to us, like part of why fire elemental creatures don't see anything wrong with you being burned alive or burning your house down, to them it is just a normal mundane or novel thing, a joke, harmless fun, but to us it is very much not

#

like they effectively have no concept of "death" as we think of it

quick gate
jagged apex
#

when an elemental "eats" another, they become a larger and stronger elemental, neither of them technically "dies"

quick gate
#

Because there is also the element of emotional investment you have in your game, that they ruined

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

they literally have not done anything to your game, that is strictly between you and your table

tranquil fog
# merry rune they are one with the plane

So an elder tempest isn't really an entity then? That's how what you're saying seems to mean, as elder tempests are from the elemental plane of air. Like, they come from there fully formed because that's what they already were before they enter the material plane.

jagged apex
#

the published lore exists independently of any one group's game, even if they are set in that setting

quick gate
jagged apex
#

you are greatly missing the point, so i am not gunna even bother entertaining this perpetual argument machine of yours any more

quick gate
#

I get your point. You're not getting mine

unkempt merlin
timid tendon
storm dagger
#

Genies reform on their home plane other elementals seem to just die and be absorbed.

storm dagger
#

Also yes Evil wins for a time.

karmic belfry
#

Hi there, good morning

#

So I understand orcs in FR are diferenciated by being either mountain orcs (green piglike) and grey orcs (more humanlike and religious)

#

The first one came to Toril during the First Flowering view gates left behind by the creator races

#

However, I can't find any context on how this happened, like, did the orc manage to adtivate it themselves? was it Grummsh? did another species on Toril summoned them?

jagged apex
#

so basically they eventually just walked through

#

best place to find more info would likely be to check the cited source

thorny hound
#

How long can Fey live for, are they even bound by the logic of age?

jagged apex
#

far as i know it varies and some fey the idea of death is completely foreign to them, leading to how some of their pranks can wind up accidently killing mortals

undone steppe
#

Hello all I just came from the dnd-newcomers channel but was made aware that this is the more appropriate place to ask my question. I am entirely new to dnd and the forgotten realms game world and am especially interested in lore/story. I was looking to see if there was a resource such as a book or online space dedicated to detailing the world and story of the game that the community found to be most comprehensive

fringe stump
#

Hello. The Forgotten realm is a huge subject, it started decades ago and has books, novels, video games and everything, and not everything is considered canon depending on who you ask.

Chris Perkins, former lead designer said that only what was published in 5E is canon now, but its just a tiny bit of the whole setting, divided into several books.

Good news is a new book just arrived with fresh lore for GMs : "Forgotten Realms : adventure in Faerun" Again its just a small part of the setting but better than nothing.

To my knowledge the Forgotten Realm wiki is the best source when you want info about what is in the setting and what is the source.

Ed Greenwood, the creator of this setting, has a YT channel were he explains some concept.

Last, 2nd and 3rd edition campaign book are still available on Drivethru RPG afaik

#

To sum it up : you have to dig the internet, and then choose what you want to keep in your own FR, and what you want to ignore 🙂

undone steppe
#

Thank you! Would that book that you mention be a good place to start as a total beginner or is there anything I ought to have down before that?

fringe stump
#

I haven't read the new book yet (delay in europe - sad trombone noise) but from what I could gather, it seems pretty good. But better ask someone who actually read it

wispy aurora
#

Are Aranea Lolth-worshippers? They're described as neutral in the Calimshan Adventurer's Guide, and they were created to infiltrate the drow armies- yet at the same time we have Faiths and Pantheons which says they worship Lolth?
Which one is it? I had the thought of maybe inserting a small civil war inside the spider swamp (which I am not sure if it still exist, but the map at the end of Calimshan Adventurer's Guild says it does) in which we have drow worshipping araneas vs those who still pray to zanassu and my adventurers in the middle of it, but I just think the entire Aranea situation is confusing

fringe stump
#

I don't think Calimshan Adventurer's guide is canon, so you can do whatever you whish, I suppose?

storm dagger
storm dagger
# wispy aurora Are Aranea Lolth-worshippers? They're described as neutral in the Calimshan Adve...

It sounds like they are pretty individualistic

Araneas are reclusive shape-shifters. An aranea’s natural form resembles a bulky, humpbacked spider with two short arms beneath its head. An aranea can shape-shift into a humanoid form or into a multiarmed humanoid-spider hybrid. Araneas live in insular communities, such as the Spider Swamp in Calimshan, where they create beautiful objects that express their artistry and which are sometimes traded to other communities. Most araneas prefer to avoid combat, befuddling their foes long enough to skitter to safety.

#

Described as secretive crafters and traders

grim siren
jagged apex
#

so unless the newer materials specifically say lolth is worshiped among the Aranea people, they either still worship zanassu, unaware of their demise, or have taken to worship other gods

jagged apex
#

so FR:AiF supersedes any older lore or the 3rd party book you mentioned in regards to the latest lore for the published continuity, older lore that is not directly contradicted though is still fair game though, but that is from official products, at least in regards to the current continuity of 5e

vague birch
#

Has any more been revealed about the fate of Fort Morninglord? I thought something might come of it after the events of Descent Into Avernus.

jagged apex
#

not to my knowledge, what ever may have happened in descent into avernus far as i know is the latest we have on it as what is on the forgotten realms wiki is from earlier sources

feral lintel
#

all i remember from the Heroes of Faerun and Adventures of Faerun book is that it mentioned Elturel descending for a while

little vortex
#

Any weird old dnd lore that strikes yalls fancy. I like the Draedens from 86's dungeon masters guide to immortals

calm crest
#

Yeah, Mystara has some interesting lore. I do like the theory that the path to becoming an Old One hinted at in the Immortals book involves reaching Hierarch status in the mortal’s original dimensional orientation (either normal 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dimensions or Nightmare 3rd, 4th, and 5th), rescinding the status to reincarnate in the opposite dimensional orientation in order and reach Hierarch again to gain a full understanding of the multiverse.

#

And furthermore, the Outer Beings, like Arak, exist on the the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th dimensions, rendering them uncanny to both normal and Nightmare beings.

thorny hound
#

What creature would be an opposite of Fey ?

fathom pond
#

(In 5e lore)

thorny hound
#

So basically Shadowfell residents

fathom pond
#

(In the Ravenloft’s guide and in WBtW)

runic cave
#

Are there any Trade heavy races? i'm trying to start an adventures incorporated franchise on this character so i was thinking about verdun or kenku?

fathom pond
#

Humans, dwarves.

#

(In usual D&D settings)

calm crest
jagged apex
tranquil fog
#

What happens to elementals when they die?

jagged apex
#

that has already been asked recently i am fairly sure, so i'd suggest simply trying to scroll up to the answer

#

in fact look back, you were the one who asked it previously

tranquil fog
#

What about celestials?

jagged apex
#

again, pretty sure this has been answered previously

#

at least in the case of 2024/2025 books, this is baked into the statblock

tranquil fog
jagged apex
#

as i said, with celestials and fiends, it is baked into the statblocks of the new core books, and presumably going forward for the remainder of 5e's life cycle

#

so at least with the celestials and fiends in question if they are in the 2024/2025 monster manual, you can check the statblock and it will provide the answer that is both lore accurate for setting agnostic use and mechanically

tranquil fog
jagged apex
#

which you of course are as usually with pretty much anything in your own games to take and discard or spread across for your own games as you desire, remember this is just for what is written in official published continuity and sources

tranquil fog
jagged apex
#

and again technically the core books are setting agnostic and planescape is partially a setting, is kind of one of those weird things that is both setting and part of the wider cosmos, kind of like spelljamming, which was also mentioned again in the new core books too to some degree

tranquil fog
#

It's going over the cosmology of D&D

jagged apex
#

again it is bit of both

#

as main location of the setting is in the outlands which is part of the outer planes, plus at the time i am not even entirely sure if they knew they were gunna make the new revised core books, but both are valid and can co-exist, especially in one's own games far as i can tell

#

either way you have your answer both are equally valid far as i am aware, and is more a matter of splitting hairs and ultimately up to you in your own games

unkempt merlin
#

(which included elementals & celestials)

glossy summit
#

whats the lore with drow? are they evil race?

unborn light
warm thicket
storm dagger
storm dagger
#

But specific beats general and lots of fiend types and Angels have rules that override that clause

#

Devils for example instantly revive in the Nine Hells if killed elsewhere.

jagged apex
#

only in those really old editiions where they were strictly a monster to fight were they really depicted as inherently evil, these days that is at best in universe bias other species may have towards such beings

modest badger
# tranquil fog What happens to elementals when they die?

Linking back up here: #dnd-lore message. Only Fiends and Celestials tend to have special rules for dying on other planes.

In 2014, there were blanket rules for fiends, and certain celestials. Morte's Planar parade made it a rule for all fiends and celestials. 2024 seems to have gone back to specific fiends and celestials have the ability to return to their homeplane on death (There's no mention of a blanket rule, but certain creatures have it mentioned in their statblock).

In previous editions one of the only other 'returns to plane upon death' type rule I could find was Monodrones, and 'summoned' creatures.

#

So, the answer is elementals and fey just die. What happens specifically to their souls is another question, but presumbly what happens with other souls- they journey through the astral (used to be ethereal, but pretty sure it's Astral now in 5e) to a realm that matches their diety/alignment. I'll see if I can track down any specific quotes for or against that, but that's as far as I know.

untold gulch
#

Drow as a species are not inherently evil, and given that Drizzt first appeared in 1988 this is not exactly a new notion. The Drow of Lolth are a subset culture of drow that worships the Spider Queen, and they are evil because of their beliefs in an evil goddess and the actions they take part in for that cult/religon. Their stats are presented as monsters with unique traits and alignment distinctions in the Adventures in Faerûn book.

jagged apex
#

yeah they basically were only even implied as evil in nature back before they were fleshed out, driz'zt came about when the writer saw just how little lore the drow had, so a lot of the drow lore especially in the realms largely came from the driz'zt series and the city he was born in

#

and that little amount of lore was specifically in the earlier days potentially before even 1e or 2e, so for a long time they have not been inherently evil in published materials

modest badger
#

Actually, going further back to their debut(They fully appeared in 'Hall of the Fire Giant King' 1978, but closely after in Descent into the Depths of the Earth (1 and 2 parts), then 'Vault of the Drow'. Nilonim and the Rakes in Vault of the Drow were explicitly neutral, 'tending good'. It was pretty clear that the system was evil, and the rebellious network of criminals in the city were opposed to the tyrannical rule of the church of Lolth.

#

Drizzt was 1990.

(Fun fact - Not only was Nilonim one of the first canonically good drow, he was also canonically in a MlM relationship with another male drow, Teregrin, established later in a 2e module 'Dead Gods' 1997)

teal egret
#

Is the forgotten realms the official-ish dnd timeline? (Unsure if thats the proper way to word it)

jagged apex
#

yes and no

#

there is more than one, as there is more than one setting in dnd

teal egret
#

I see

jagged apex
#

there are multiple continuities

ionic rivet
#

Each setting is different and has their own "official" timeline (with the caveat that each official D&D publication is it's own thing as official unto itself, and not to any universal timeline/lore).

jagged apex
#

the forgotten realms does have a timeline though if that is what you are asking

teal egret
#

Getting ready to play in my first "official content" campaign, so im tryna learn a bit i suppose

jagged apex
#

well, first you wanna figure out which setting you are gunna be playing in and go from there

teal egret
jagged apex
#

otherwise you are gunna be looking for a needle in a hay stack without knowing what a needle even looks like

teal egret
#

Thats the issue

#

Ill find what I was told rq

jagged apex
#

not really, you are from the sounds of it gunna be playing in the forgotten realms, but most info relevant to the adventure will be in the adventure itself, so not sure what specifically you are wanting to know, cuz most of the realms history and timeline is unlikely to nessissarily be something your character would be expected to or need to know

teal egret
#

All I have to work with is Neverdeath and City of Skilled hands, and never winter

#

My character will be a College of Lore bard, soldier background

jagged apex
teal egret
#

Im trying to learn about wars that are recent enough that a human could have participated in

jagged apex
teal egret
#

Alrighty

#

And is there any information on how the education system works...?

jagged apex
#

granted this is across the entire forgotten realms setting, not nessissarily on toril, the continent of faerun, or even the city of neverwinter

teal egret
#

Like when regular school ends, when arcane begins and so forth?

teal egret
#

Trying to guesstimate an age for my human bard

jagged apex
#

this not irl, there is not a universal government for things like schooling of magic or other such things, those are largely things of privileged and rather expensive and for bards is up to the would be bard to find another bard willing to teach them and show them the ropes as it were

teal egret
#

Ah, so there aren't actual colleges as the subclass implies😅

#

I suppose that helps though if he learned while at war

ionic rivet
#

It's more of "domain of knowledge" rather then actual "sit in a class and learn" school.

jagged apex
teal egret
#

Aj Pickett, thankee

#

Ive not gotten to be a player in years, so playing wotc content has me rattled yet excited

#

Thanks again fellas

jagged apex
teal egret
#

Ooh, more info, thankee

jagged apex
#

yeah a lot of the info he mentions in the video is otherwise obscure to my knowledge and am pretty sure is from older sources that most would not necessarily look to or have access to unless playing those older editions

#

cuz older lore is still valid unless contradicted by newer sources for the same setting on the same subject

tranquil fog
modest badger
#

If you check out what I linked to, as far as I'm aware there has never been any lore for Elements or fey in that way.
It was fiends specifically through out all editions, and some celestials later on.

The 'planar beings return to their plane on death' seems to be a misconception of the common rule through editions (very explicitly in 3e) that summoned creatures return to their planes on 'dying'.

modest badger
#

In 3.5 Elementals were not 'dual natured'- they were not shell and soul, but one manifestation. On death, their existence simply ended:

Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.

I can't really find anything specific in 5e. In 2014 the lore for Elementals as in 'fire/water/earth/air elemental' was "On its home plane, an elemental is a bodiless life force." It mentions nothing about death. 2024 Doesn't seem to add in any specific 'returns to native plane on death' ability like it gives specific fiends and celestials.

With the lore-rule interaction of 2014, there's weirdness. Mechanically, any creature that can be raised by the rules can be, implying it has a soul. But then the lore has been iffy on what a soul vs a spirit is in 5e, and if lorewise if something is explicitly souless do you have to rule that raise spells won't work on it, even if technically RAW they could?

Regardless, lore wise, as 5e seems to imply Elemental-elementals are spirits, one could presume much like in older editions, they simply disapate on death- no soul left. However lore wise some elementals in 5e do have souls, like Genies in 2014 (although, confusingly, also referred to as spirits again):

A genie is born when the soul of a sentient living creature melds with the primordial matter of an elemental plane.
(...)
Although they resemble humanoid beings, genies are elemental spirits given physical form.
The only note on their deaths is that they leave no body behind, just items. But presumably if they have a soul, normal death rules apply.

#

2024 5e however gives most Genies a specific trait much like fiends and celestials that if it dies outside its plane returns it to its native plane where it'll form a new body. So there is specific rules for some elementals in 2024.

modest badger
storm dagger
#

You can still use the planescape rules for general fiends and celestials, but specific overrides general

feral lintel
modest badger
#

The TL;DR bold 😉

#

Oooh, I have missed a 2e fact!

2e Monstrous Manual, 1994, pg 98 'Elemental, Generic Information':

Each elemental must adopt a shell in the Prime Material composed of the basic element it represents. and once this shell is destroyed, the elemental will return to its native plane.

I cannot find this in 1e, but might have missed something, and is undone in 3e, but we've got one more category that previously had a blanket 'return to plane' rule in one edition.

#

Off the top of my head:
1e: Fiends
2e: Fiends, Elementals, Specific Celestials, Modrons
3e: Fiends
4e: ? (I'm so bad with 4e lore)
5e: '14 Fiends, Planescape Fiends and Celestials, '24 Specific creatures based on statblock (Most fiends, some celestials and elementals I've seen so far)

#

(Note that AD&D didn't really have creature types, but occasional rules that applied to a specific group. Demons and Devils were grouped. Elementals here means just the actual 'X elemental' and not what we'd understand to be elementals later on like genies and so on)

calm crest
#

5e is also the first edition to give all creatures souls. In previous editions, more distinctions were made.

jagged apex
#

far as i know creature types were not a stable of dnd until 3e onward

storm dagger
#

I don’t think Modrons ever had a respawn.

unkempt merlin
storm dagger
#

When one died a nearby one of the rank below it would be promoted into its spot. Then another would fill that spot, until the bottom rank where a new monodrone would come out of the energy pool.

autumn temple
#

The mass majority of them can barely be said to have a self to preserve for respawning.

jagged apex
#

yeah the modrons are parts of a network, with primus at the center, only when they become disconnected are they really an individual

fathom pond
#

Efreeti and Djinn are indicated as creatures from Elemental Planes (MM1 p 37 - first mention of City of Brass, btw, I suppose)

fathom pond
#

(I have some 1e book at hand, as I am about to adapt Welcome to Hellfire Club to 1e to run it as Eddie intended)

modest badger
# storm dagger I don’t think Modrons ever had a respawn.

Modrons in 2e didn't really 'respawn' like fiends and celestials, but it's soul/life force returned back to the 'communal pool' to be reused. So not quite a respawn but similar.
In Planescape 'Planes of Law' :

"Of course there are sods who've thought to test this theory by figuring a way to kill the modrons. Unfortunately for them, it's pretty much impossible to be entirely rid of a modron. See, when a modron dies, its life force is absorbed back into the communal pool. then, a modron of the rank below is promoted (and so on down the chain), and then a new monodrone, made from the essence of the dead monodrone, is formed to take the place of the promoted monodrone

And in Planescape Campaign Setting, Book 2: A DM's Guide to the planes, p.19:

The bodies of modrons slain anywhere immediately disintegrate. It is suspected that whatever energies were trapped within the creature’s mortal form find their way back to Mechanus and merge with the energy field of the plane. This field is what sustains the modron race.

Similar to fiends, but that individual modron isn't implied to respawn so much as get recycled.

full aurora
#

In Dwarven society, is mounted combat common? If so, what are mounts Dwarves use?

modest badger
# full aurora In Dwarven society, is mounted combat common? If so, what are mounts Dwarves use...

Hmm, lorewise we have some sources.

In 2e, 1991, Complete Book of Dwarves, p 59 (A supplement book)

Rapid Response Riders are the dwarves' equivalent of cavalry. Mounted on suitably sturdy beasts, they are capable of moving faster than other dwarves, and packing more punch when they attack. Ponies or mules are commonly used as mounts, but creatures such as bears, boars, and dire wolves are sometimes used. Flying creatures, griffons, hippogriffs, or pegasi, may be employed

Peacehammers, a special devision of Gold Dwarf soldiers use hippogriffs: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eartheart

Riding Lizards are subterranean mounts, but I can't recall Dwarves using them. Duegar use Steeders.

In 5e though, with Dwarves being Medium sized, other medium sized mounts are not viable, such as Ponies, mules and boars

#

Fan favourites include the giant goat (likely inspired by The Hobbit movie, and their sure-footedness), but I can't actually find any official lore for such. But as large creatures, they can work in 5e.

full aurora
#

Tyvm, will keep all those in mind

modest badger
#

Oh on the above discussion, I did manage to get this from 1e Manual of the Planes, p.77:

Creatures: Creatures whose descriptions list them as natives of a particular plane or group of planes (such as the devils in the Hells or the devas in the upper planes) physically exist In these planes and can be slain permanently there.
In the outer planes, only the weaker nonnatives have their physical bodies present; the stronger nonnatives (greater daemons, hierarch modrons, more powerful slaadi) leave their original bodies behind and have new ones created on the plane as for astral projection. Unique creatures found outside their native planes are always in nonoriginal Bodies.

So this does seem to be a case that while not all planar beings return to their native plane on being slain (weaker ones in 1e didn't), it is a blanket rule that says stronger non-natives to a plane are likely to not to be in their own bodies, so won't die die (Akin to how Astral projection works).

Other creatures beyond demons and devils I've found explicit 'Won't die if slain outside native plane' are Greater Daemons (Yuguloths), Charon (A greater Daemon, but specifically he's native to 5 realms, so just can't be killed as even if killed on one of those native planes he just disappears from their for a day), Invisible Stalkers, Agathion (Native to upperrealms, essentially a type of celestial).

#

So while I think it's still more specific that 'Any planar being slain outside their plane just returns there' there does seem to be precedent that 'Any powerful planar being slain outside their native plane can return there'.

Which is what we're seeing through out the editions and in 5e '24 where specific fiends, elementals, celestials and such do seem to have a 'return to sender' ability.

Nothing for Fey yet. They're not really planar in the same way. Need to look into aberrations.

karmic belfry
#

Isn't the reason because the Feywild and Shadowfell are not so distant from the material plane than the Outer planes?

#

Like IIRC both planes are "copies" linked to the original Material Plane

fathom pond
spiral isle
#

Im curious is there any other novel collection like the drizzt story?

fathom pond
#

(Novels is what brought TSR to his knees)

modest badger
# karmic belfry Isn't the reason because the Feywild and Shadowfell are not so distant from the ...

Yeah, 'Feywilds' and 'Shadowfell' didn't fully exist lorewise until 4e, so before that, not really any rules pertaining to being native or not. 'Fey' creatures that we know now are more part of the magical world of the material, and 'Faerie' did exist but had very little lore. Shadowfell was a mix of the Shadow plane and negative energy plane. Little more lore, but again, not as clearly defined in earlier editions.

The 'Creatures whose descriptions list them as natives of a particular plane ' is also not the same as 'planar'. Not all will be listed as 'Native of this specific plane' like demons and devils are.

fathom pond
spiral isle
modest badger
# fathom pond And remember that the MM1 1e was written first (before PHB & DMG and therefore M...

Yeah, Manual of the Planes does have a table on page 25 that lists which creatures are Native to what planes, but there's not really a clear rule I can find yet saying which ones are 'strong' enough to manifest a new physical body in another plane rather than use their original body. "The stronger nonnatives (greater daemons, hierarch modrons, more powerful slaadi)" isn't very defining. There's not a good way of ranking power to determine.
Mariliths are, Horned Devils are, but Erinyes aren't. I'm not sure I could make a clear ruling on that and say which planar beings are powerful enough, and if there are any on the list that do not count as specifically native enough (Again, no 'fey' type creature or aberrations or so on are on that list. Just what we'd classify as fiends, celestials and elementals, and some slaadi and modrons.

fathom pond
modest badger
#

Yeah, I was looking into that but it's still not a clear 'Yes creatures with this HD or more' or such.
Mariliths are Type V and have HD 7+7
Horned Devils are 'Greater' and have 5+5, but Erinyes are 'Lesser' and have 6+6

#

Ah, there is a table on 65 that gives a better idea as it states which outer planar beings will have a physical or non physical body in the astral.

#

Which includes Greater Daemons, Greater Devils and Greater Demons as usual, as well as any higher ranks. Foo Dogs and Foo Lions, interestingly. Death and Grey Slaadi, and Slaadi Lords. Planetars and Solars. Deva do not.
It's not clear on Genie. But least Slaadi now have a clearer cut off point.

fathom pond
fathom pond
#

(table p.27)

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And the cut is "Type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat (..) the demon in question is forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth once again." (Supplement III - Eldritch Wizardy, p.29)

#

It's always nice to reopen these booklets. Thank you for making me cracking open the box

modest badger
#

Yeah, I'm just not sure I could make a hard rule to then say which elementals would be able to return to their own plane in 1e, such as if Genie would or wouldn't.

fathom pond
#

(I don't own Manual of the Planes but I do Eldritch Wizardry 🙂 )

fathom pond
modest badger
#

In a personal game, yeah, but for a lore answer here on if 'Would a genie in 1e return to their elemental plane on death in another plane' my answer would have to be 'Uncertain. We have clear lore on which Daemons, Demons, Devils, Slaadi and Deva (Solar and Planetar) do, but not on if Genie would. It's possible'

#

Invisible Stalkers- Yes, because their own specific lore says so. Genie? Maybe.

versed hare
#

Ahh I'm getting excited to run some 1e adnd

fathom pond
fathom pond
snow laurel
#

On eberron, how would a valenar elf react to a hexblade making their pact weapon into a double scimitar? It's a facsimile, not an "authentic" piece from valenar, would they care?

open wolf
#

We ever going to acknowledge the fact that a Drow is higher CR then a Drow guard/noble?

pallid flower
snow laurel
#

tbh I'd rather fight a pampered noble than a hard-bodied slave

calm crest
open wolf
unkempt merlin
jagged apex
jagged apex
# snow laurel On eberron, how would a valenar elf react to a hexblade making their pact weapon...

far as i can tell, they likely would not be prone to feeling any special way unless it was in the hand of a non elf, to quote the item's description from the dnd beyond basic rules "The double-bladed scimitar is the signature weapon of Valenar elves. A haft of fine wood supports a long, curving blade on either end. Forged with techniques honed over centuries, these blades are strong, sharp, and remarkably light. Each scimitar is a masterpiece, and as a result the double-bladed scimitar is an expensive weapon (100 gp) — few though ever have the opportunity to purchase one. A Valenar blade in the hands of a non-elf is generally assumed to have been stolen or looted from a fallen foe, and a Valenar elf might feel entitled to demand its return or challenge the bearer to prove they’re worthy to wield it." end quote

snow laurel
jagged apex
#

so at most it would just be them having a surprisingly cheap version of an otherwise expensive and fancy weapon

#

if anything is mainly valenar elves that put such worth on these items beyond the monetary

#

how the individual would feel if they are not such an elf will potentially come down to their own species and more importantly them as an individual of that species which can deviate from norms much like anyone else

#

presumably at most they would feel much the same as any other fancy, well crafted, and expensive weapon if i had to guess

pallid flower
#

They asked how a Valenar elf (who’s not the warlock) would react to a pact weapon

jagged apex
#

well that contradicts what he just told me, either way i tried to explain best i could to try to help

unkempt merlin
fervent glade
#

Is there any canon lore on how the Seldarine pantheon views half-elves? Would they accept them enough to grant cleric powers?

jagged apex
#

plus the pantheon is composed of gods that are as much individuals as they are part of a pantheon

jagged apex
#

cuz depending on the setting that can make a massive difference

fervent glade
jagged apex
#

then as i said, historically the main one you'd see half-elves venerate is Khalreshaar, but to my knowledge none of the elven deities have specific views about half elves, let alone ones so negative that it would be something worth not granting power to if they are other wise a sufficiently devout and loyal worshiper

fervent glade
#

Ok cool, thank you for your input :)!

jagged apex
#

though keep in mind as it's own continuity while bg3 does mostly stick to the published continuity it does take some liberties in some cases

fervent glade
fervent glade
jagged apex
#

from what i can tell, if anything the two deities in the game from the lore associated with the tempest domain, are very much not on good terms with the seldarine, which is a bit funny XD

fervent glade
jagged apex
#

eh, technically only the dead 3 are known as dark gods/the dark three, but i know what you mean

fervent glade
#

I just meant dark as in evil, but I'll edit the comment.

twilit creek
#

So warlocks have a patron god can they make a pact to host their god within them for more power like sukuna and yuji from jjk sorry if you don't get the reference

storm dagger
#

Warlocks don’t have to get power from a god. Any powerful entity can work

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Or even a fairly weak entity if they have powerful backing

#

Yuji is actually a pretty bad example as Sukuna doesn’t really give him anything

twilit creek
pallid flower
pallid flower
twilit creek
pallid flower
true solstice
#

Does Toril have an Italy equivalent anywhere where pizza could be invented?

jagged apex
#

so based on what little info we have, is possible that the wizards 3 after enjoying it when visiting ed greenwood asked him about how it was made and brought that knowledge back with them

dusky wharf
#

Yeah there aren't really a ton of 1:1 analogues in the Realms. There are a few, mostly added by TSR, but the original setting tried to avoid it.

timid tendon
#

Pizza is just baked flat bread with toppings. You can have a buncha different countries in the Realms that have those

#

Nothing specifically tying them to cultural identity tho

#

Which is sometimes the case with pizza

dusky wharf
fervent glade
# dusky wharf So the best ones from the setting aren't represented in game. But if those I'd s...

Yeah, I’m considering all three of those with different RP reasonings for and against.

Mystra could fit since my character is a sorceress with innate magic, but this is also the goddess that wanted her friend to blow himself up, so that’s a hard sell.

My character clings pretty hard to her half-elven identity while rejecting Bhaal which is why I wondered about Corellon in the first place. It’s still an option, it’s just not quite feeling like the right fit to me.

I am leaning towards Selune and flavoring it as Selune granting extra magic as a gift for saving Aylin/helping Shadowheart make the right choice. (It’s only a two level dip into cleric, so this works well for that).

(This fits more in the character discussion chat so I’ll leave it at that, but I didn’t want to ignore your helpful response!)

#

I do wish DnD had more good aligned tempest domain gods in general. The two most common ones seem to be Talos and Umberlee, who are pretty evil.

dusky wharf
#

There's definitely more options in the wide Realms, yes

#

Just not that they included in BG3

#

I'd suggest Selune, even if just for the added dialogue choices that make things more interesting at points

fervent glade
fallen pulsar
eager bay
#

Who is Baator? From the Nine Hells

timid tendon
#

thats the name of the hells

eager bay
#

But Baator is the entirety of the plane where the Nine Hells are? Or is it like Nine Hells of Baator (And he was the ancient leader or something like that, I remember reading something about it)

timid tendon
#

the former
Baator is its formal Infernal name

#

there is/was a supreme leader at some point

eager bay
#

Understood, do you know anything about the supreme leader? (Unless you mean Asmodeus)

timid tendon
#

yes but also i recall some vague lore about there being creatures native to Baator/Hell before devils came (all thats left are nupperibos)

eager bay
#

Ok, thanks

true solstice
fathom pond
timid tendon
#

nah, i checked, Nupperibos have some interesting lore

fathom pond
#

(I can't write the name of the first, but you'll get it)

timid tendon
#

saw the og, no worries

fathom pond
#

Wikipedia has a surprising amount of lore easy to search

#

(and source references that allow me to open the right book 🤣 )

#

One thing I love about the 1e corebooks, is they are rife with tidbits scattered everywhere. Everytime I open one, I learn a new lil thing to introduce in my games.

storm dagger
#

Nupperibos have had odd lore in 2e. In 3e they were devils that were a demotion only form so they were disdained as failures

#

In 1e and 5e they are the souls of the worthless who are not malign enough to even become Lemures and step onto the infernal hierarchy

jagged apex
#

basically there are the baateezu and those that lie outside of baator's hierarchy, some potentially native others just known to not be bard of the hells' infernal bureaucracy

timid tendon
#

theres probably a resource somewhere about the native Baatorians

i know a bit more about the non-demon denizens of the Abyss in comparison

jagged apex
#

well there are only some that are native, is mainly baateezu and misc devils which natives would be included under to my knowledge

#

plus some of these misc devils seem to be specific to 4e

#

but looking at historically what defined a baatezu, seems that non baateezu would be dependent on the which origin of the hells, devils, and asmodeus you are going with of which even in published materials is unclear and has multiple at least regarding asmodeus at least

#

but far as i know most such beings are only alluded to at best and not really detailed anywhere, granted i could be wrong

storm dagger
#

Zargon the Returner an Elder Evil aberration is said to be a pre devil inhabitant of the Baator

#

But it’s also stated that it was not native to it

eager bay
calm crest
#

Worth noting that Zargon has two entirely different origins: the above is how the Returner fits into the core D&D multiverse; in the Mystaran multiverse, where Zargon first appears, he seems to be a servant or avatar of the Outer Beings that arrived to the Known World in the ancient past and was imprisoned below what would become Cynidicea.

unborn light
calm crest
#

Indeed.

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It’s one of my favorite modules.

unborn light
#

Same!

high aspen
#

Should I read the new forgotten realms stuff first or the 3 and 3.5e lore books first? I’ve kinda been pushing it off bc I was concerned I’d get through the new stuff only to find out that it would’ve made more sense to do the old in depth stuff first.

calm crest
#

For most intents and purposes, the new books (followed by some FR wiki-diving to supplement) will probably serve you best if you want to know the state of the setting circa 1501 DR.

calm crest
unborn light
calm crest
#

Both are imprisoned Elder Evil-type figures who are worshipped as gods, and Zargon’s iconic red eye is similar to Arik’s signature relics.

unborn light
#

Arik of the 99 Eyes, plucked out one to give to Zargon 🙂

calm crest
#

Seems plausible that if Arik has one plot to return to the Known World, he might have several! It’s also possible that Arik’s Immortal power is what provides Zargon’s clerics their magic.

dusky wharf
unborn light
high aspen
storm dagger
#

Lots of checking the old books

#

And then updating based on new info

high aspen
storm dagger
#

But as a result lots of new stuff is underbaked on the site and there is lots of information that is outright contradictory

storm dagger
#

Adventures then more deep dives into some areas

high aspen
#

I could be misinterpreting what I saw, but I remember 5.5 making orcs nomads but 5 keeping with the theme of orcs usually being dumber and half-orcs being the bridge to civilized humanoids

storm dagger
#

They try and point to sources

#

Orcs as of 2024 are basically merged with half orcs

high aspen
#

oh ok good to know

#

I’m sure I’ll find a reason for that in there actually

merry rune
#

genetics are no longer black and white is what they did i guess

#

if dnd even has genetics.... im not sure how that works

modest badger
#

Getting a bit off topic here as going into meta and speculation around lore, but note that mechanics are 1) a game convenience and 2) still affected by misconceptions, bias and bad world building.

There are plenty of examples in D&D where it's highly unclear if mechanics are meant to reflect a cultural tendency (Such as some groups like noble drow having more spell casting abilities), or biological- and those were often affected by personal bias (Like including weaker strength scores for women, or giving some female groups more charisma) or trying to figure out how to gamify the species for the sake of gameplay and balance.

But to get back to it, essentially now- Orcs are not culturally or biologically any smarter or not than other species.

5e also has decided not to 'gamify' or mechanise mixed species, which honestly has been a discussion since 1e, as again, the available 'half-species' to play were the ones bothered to stat out- not implying that others couldn't exist, but that the designers did not want to stat out every single combination. 5e has gone the otherway and preferred not to mechanise even human/elf or human/orc mixes, and instead step away from mechanising mixed species at all and leaving it more to tables and players to decide how to represent their PCs and how their PCs would identify.

Species are also no monolithic. Within settings, Wood elves in one area might have entirely different culture to wood elves in another region. Often non-human species have been simplified for game reasons (such a species based languages instead of region based), but settings don't always stick to that.

#

When delving into older lore, while it can give a great idea of where ideas have come from, or provide more information on a topic currently not delved into as much in the current edition, lore and approaches to lore change over time.

I fully encourage digging into older lore for ideas, but remember lore does not need to remain consistent and follows a 'canon' releative to it's own edition and medium (Video game lore might not match novel lore might not match TTRPG lore so on)

dusky wharf
#

It's also worth noting that in many cases, even in older stuff, there's a lot of use of unreliable narrators, specifically so that it's easy to change things later if needed, whether as the DM or as future writers

spark falcon
#

are the wildspace spheres just the other multiverses like eberron

unkempt merlin
#

sort of

The various wildspaces are all wildspaces of different settings. They are all a part of 1 multiverse.

Notably Eberron is not a traditional setting in that its not located in the Astral Sea like all the others, but the deep ethereal.

spark falcon
#

so even a homebrew campaign setting can be in a wildspace technically

unkempt merlin
#

hypothetically most setting would be their own wildspace system yes

spark falcon
#

if my character travel to a different wildspace could i meet my self

high aspen
# modest badger When delving into older lore, while it can give a great idea of where ideas have...

I honestly really appreciate the in depth response as this was a primary concern for me getting into DnD, since the “cultural/societal-tension-between-different-species-but-them-ultimately-banding-together-for-a-greater-cause-once-they-realize-they-have-more-in-common-than-not trope” (takes breath) is what I have been lead to believe is peak fantasy story-telling. It’ll be good for me to know that the older stuff can let me know what a region or species can be inclined towards as well as knowing I can tweak and port in my own campaigns to choose a route for whether such inclinations are biological or cultural and what people are biased to think is which.

tranquil fog
#

What do the fey eat?

#

Or do they not eat at all?

#

Tbc I'm moreso looking for like, an idea of what your average fey would generally eat (if they would eat at all) from a lore standpoint.

grim flint
#

Fey humanoids eat what other humanoids would eat, fey plants what plants would eat (unless their carnivorous) and fey beasts what their beast counterpart would eat. At least typically and with possible exceptions that my brain only vaguely tells me exists.

jagged apex
#

is just there is a good chance some things safe for fey to eat may or may not be safe for mortals such as humans, orcs, ect... to eat

storm dagger
jagged apex
#

remember not every single minute detail is covered in the lore, some things are purely speculative by design

untold gulch
#

Fun fact: Arch-hags are immune to the exhausted condition which means they technically never need to eat anything. In fact I think most creatures that previously had the "does not need to eat, sleep, drink or breathe" somewhere in their old stats got exhaustion immunity instead in 2024 since the consequences of not eating/drinking/breathing is just gaining exhaustion levels until you die

jagged apex
#

that sounds potentially leaning more towards mechanic and can vary, but historically to my knowledge fey eating were either nessessary or was simply for fun if they were one of the kind that doesn't need to, either way it varies a lot especially over the years

#

either way, there is not gunna be any singular universal answer far as i know

untold gulch
#

Yes out of the fey in the MM and FR:AiF the Arch-Hag is the only fey that have that condition immunity, and it's more of a high level monster thing. Obviously they can eat and probably should for fun, atmosphere, or certain plot points. Elminster is kind of in the same "never needs to eat" if we use the old rules or Alustriel as a 5E example, however he still will want to eat a bunch of your food if he shows up in a certain video game scene

jagged apex
#

and the feywild being land of whimsical extremes and fairy tails, being careful what you eat among any number of other things that you are probably better off not accepting or partaking in more often than not

tranquil fog
# storm dagger Whatever they want to, it completely depends on the type of fey.

I mean yeah, but like, what would they eat? Like, would it be more common to eat plants or animals? Is eating a salad something a fey would feel guilty for if they were friends with a dryad or with a fey that had plant-like features? What about eating meat in front of fey with more animal-like features? Would that be a social faux pas? And what if a fey with plantlike features was to knowingly or unknowingly eat something with plants in it. Would that be like if humans ate chimpanzees?

feral lintel
#

the problem is that fey range from hags to centaurs to satyrs to dryads

north vault
tranquil fog
north vault
#

It really depends too much

storm dagger
#

Ok still depends on the Fey

#

Like Dryads for example I don’t think eat and just subsist on what their tree does

north vault
#

That is only true for 5e monsters

storm dagger
#

I didn’t bother checking the Dryad entry

feral lintel
#

although thats leaning more into mechanics and less into what this channel is for

storm dagger
#

Was just going on what I thought was likely

north vault
#

Technically it's not part of the statblock. That information is generally put in the lore part of the monster

#

Like how Aboleth immortality is not in their statblock, it's in their lore.

feral lintel
#

(it was in the 2014 monster manual. Mordenkainen makes it part of the statblock, then 2024 omits that, i think they just get blanket immunity to exhaustion)

#

also, again, not really a lore thing

north vault
#

How so? Is it not lore that aboleths have perfect immortality and just respawn?

#

And that vampires need to drink blood?

feral lintel
#

Mechanics and Statblocks arent really a topic for this channel

north vault
#

Agreed. But nobody is talking about mechanics and statblocks

feral lintel
#

...

north vault
#

What? It's not in their statblock. It's in the monster manual, in the lore part. Two paragraphs after the one that say Aboleths are an ancient species that used to rule the world

#

Part of the lore of aboleths is their perfect immortality, and part of the lore of vampires is that they can die of starvation. In the same way, we can extrapolate that dryads need some sort of food.

storm dagger
#

They are linked to trees so it makes sense that the water and soil sustains them

jagged apex
#

historically dryads are the spirits of trees, usually oak trees if memory serves, their health and life being tied to the tree they are bound to, so i'd argue they don't need to eat themselves, at least to my knowledge

twilit jacinth
#

Nor drink water - that's why they're called dry-ads 🥁 😋

golden fiber
#

I wonder how one can reflavor Spellfire Sorcerers to exist in Eberron..

feral lintel
#

Not really a lore thing

golden fiber
#

I will move elsewhere

fallow leaf
calm crest
#

Or possibly Siberys.

#

Since the Dragon Above is associated with the creation of magic, Fernia, and Irian.

spring wedge
#

So is it the same nine hells across all settings? The same asmodeus?

#

I’m asking for plane shift and transportation purposes

#

I think it would be really funny to have my party emerge in a different setting

fallow leaf
#

I think so? Seems a little strange to me that the entire multiverse only has one hell, but i guess it lines up with stuff like sigil

spring wedge
#

I guess

#

That opens up a lot of shenanagins to a character who can justify it.

spring wedge
calm crest
#

Yes, the infinitely vast Nine Hells of Baator are shared by nearly every world in the core D&D multiverse; Eberron notably lacks a connection to it.

storm dagger
#

Dragonlance seems to lack a connection but it may just be ignorance.

#

They seem to just call all Lower Planes the Abyss.

pallid flower
calm crest
#

Well, and that version only existed in the 4e continuity, never being mentioned in 3.5 or 5e. Seems like it was retconned in and out with 4e, similar to Residuum.

timid tendon
#

i like 4e but the Nine Hells getting awkwardly stuffed into Eberron was not one of its best moments

spiral isle
#

Im curious how is vecna in dnd ? And the mindflyers?

#

Also Im curious to know who is considered the biggest threat or Enemy on dnd universe

rough fractal
#

Hey folks! According to the new FR books, the current king of Many-Arrows is King Homebringer. Do we know why there isn't a Many-Arrows on the throne anymore?

fathom pond
fathom pond
fathom pond
#

Big evils... Hm. Acererak, Vecna, Cyric, Iuz, Lolth are the first names I can think of.

#

Well, Acererak is the smallest fish of the pond (unless it's different in the 5e book), as the demilich is stuck in its own tomb.

#

Szass Tam is a small one. He has yet to achieve godhood

spiral isle
#

Sorry Im new to dnd dont know much . I know DM create their stories and monsters. Was more to know on lore wise. I'll check those links thanks

fathom pond
#

D&D lore is an endless well of sometimes contradictory stuff, due to 50 years of piling up rpg books & modules, boardgames, novels, video games, and even stitching patterns or gummy boxes (yes, there is a serie of sweet boxes with statblocks of monsters on the back)

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Also : welcome. 🙂

spiral isle
#

Yeah i see thanks 🙂

jagged lion
#

Can someone give me a big lore check since i have not read any of the books?

dire olive
#

The lore of what specifically?

#

There is an ungodly amount of dnd lore

jagged lion
#

lets say the very beginning

#

it can be simplifed

#

or maybe tell me the name of the books so i can read them

dire olive
#

The beginning of Faerun?

jagged lion
#

i guess i am completly clueless

dire olive
#

There’s also multiple settings you could be asking about

#

Fr, the lore of some singular characters alone are huge

jagged lion
#

umm then maybe the most important as i said or just tell me the name of the books i need to read

#

or what videos i have to do

dire olive
#

There’s not really any lore figures more important than others. But my suggestion would be the Forgotten Realms wiki

jagged lion
#

k

dire olive
#

It has a lot of the lore figures, historical events, areas, everything

jagged lion
#

ty

fathom pond
#

D&D is like the Unreal Engine. Several games use that Engine, and each has its own lore.

#

That’s the same for D&D and settings

modest badger
# jagged lion ty

One thing to note is D&D is not one setting/world. Think of it like having both Narnia and Lord of the Ring's middle earth so on.

Faerun/Forgotten Realms is a very popular setting.

jagged lion
dire olive
modest badger
#

5e doesn't actually have one! But Forgotten Realms is a favoured one.

dire olive
#

Oh sweet

#

I’ve always wanted to learn more about Krynn. I should go research it

#

Post-cataclysm

fathom pond
#

There is a default 5e setting induced by the rules though.

#

This is true of any edition. But those D&Dverse have no lore beyond what's in the triptych.

#

Like, Vecna's base story is lore of the 1e D&Dverse. But is limited to a few things (Eye & Hand, Vecna was a powerful archlich, betrayed & killed by their first minion, Kas)

modest badger
#

Also this article (Archived) from 2013, during D&D next:

Pretty early on, we agreed that the core rules for D&D Next had to acknowledge the existence of all the worlds of D&D—not just the Forgotten Realms we’ve been talking a lot about, but also Greyhawk, Eberron, Krynn, Athas, Mystara, Ravenloft—and, most importantly, the thousands and thousands of worlds created by DMs for their own games. So we’re writing from that perspective, and you’ve seen snippets of it in the playtest materials—for example, the inclusion of the kender and the warforged in the last races document, with explicit mention of the worlds they come from.

And like in the 2014 DMG, they never say FR is the default, but list it among others that use the DMG/MM/PHB as the basic foundation:

This book, the Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual present the default assumptions for how the worlds of D&D work. Among the established settings of D&D, the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Mystara don't stray very far from those assumptions. Settings such as Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape venture further away from that baseline. As you create your own world, it's up to you to decide where on the spectrum you want your world to fall.
2014 DMG p.9

#

The 2024 DMG actually had Greyhawk as it's main example setting. But again has no official default settings for its core books.

fathom pond
#

Some settings even have subsets (Forgotten Realms has Al Qadim, Maztica, Kara Tur, even The Horde)

#

Mystara has Thunder Rift iirc (but that stays vanilla)

#

Rokugan was a D&D setting during a brief time (3.0)

#

Greyhawk has Blackmoor, with its hightech

#

One could argue (based on the proximity of the engine) that Alternity's Dark*Matter is also a D&D setting 🤣

#

Or Gamma World 1e 🤣 Edit: and Boot Hill !

#

(Alternity, 1998, is a precursor of the d20 system provided by 3.0... it's kind of a missing link between 2e & 3e)

spiral isle
#

Im curious are those world threats or only locations threats ?

fathom pond
#

Why threats ? They are just imaginary worlds in which to play. Decorum if you will

spiral isle
#

I thought it was a main world created by wizardscof the coast

fathom pond
#

TSR/WotC have published several world settings since 1974. Greyhawk/Blackmoor, Forgotten Realms, Mystara, Dark Sun, Dragonlance...

#

The main effort has always been Forgotten Realms following its huge success

#

(but it has never been said officially that the FR was the main world... just observation of the volume of material published for this specific world)

red night
#

A lot of starter material was set in the FR it may as well have been the default. Though a case can be made because of its inclusion in the DMG, a core book, Greyhawk is the default

fathom pond
#

Officially (I mean in writing ) there is no default setting but the one induced by the rules.

versed hare
#

Greyhawk is not the default, it was an example campaign setting

#

In the 2024 core rules

gritty ferry
#

what are the list of bad things Mystra has done?

merry rune
#

Mystra did nothing wrong

dire olive
#

NUH UH

storm dagger
#

The DMG has a lore glossary for some notable figures

quick gate
jagged apex
dire olive
#

Hmm, nice

jagged apex
#

like it basically caused the woman she possessed to be kept alive via unnatural means and she was doing this without either party knowing of her involvement until she was basically caught red handed so to speak, if i remember correctly

#

otherwise the majority of things she does are more of the neutral or good sort, but those two cases she was definitely not going about things in the best way at least from a mortal perspective

fathom pond
#

I was there, Gandalf 😆

#

I remember the debate on the identity of the Luminous Being (I still make it Lady of Pain)

#

Thank you for the memory trip !

jagged apex
#

the identity of the luminous beings is left unclear but is heavily implied to be a stand in for either the dm or wizards of the coast or who ever holds the license, it would make no sense for it to be the lady of pain as she rarely, if ever, is shown to have any care for what happens outside of sigil

fathom pond
jagged apex
#

well that is fine, but it is not what is in the published lore nor is it really hinted at

#

as per the purpose of this channel i am reffering to what is known in the official published lore

merry rune
#

why would the pain god be that

#

asking from a lore perspective that can go into this channel

#

what qualities does the lady of pain have that make loris think its a good candidate

jagged apex
#

well she is not a pain god, the nickname is likely do to how even so much as touching her shadow causes one unbelievable agony

merry rune
#

right but isnt the lady of pain just an actual god?

calm crest
#

The Lady of Pain is notably not a deity.

merry rune
#

that makes no sense

#

oh

#

oh right sigil

jagged apex
#

like what is known of the lady of pain, the personality description does not match or is at best only half applicable "The luminous being was a cold and harsh entity, yet at the same time forgiving and warm" cited from the novel called "waterdeep" in no incarnation have i ever seen the lady of pain described as "forgiving" or "warm"

calm crest
#

Her nature is unclear, but the one thing we do know is that no gods are permitted in Sigil and that she destroys any who attempt to worship her—so almost assuredly not a deity.

jagged apex
merry rune
#

oh wow she is the atheist deity

jagged apex
#

not really

calm crest
#

No?

fathom pond
jagged apex
#

she is a being above being a deity

calm crest
fathom pond
#

Hm

jagged apex
#

but not in the same sense as typical deities, over deities don't require worship

calm crest
jagged apex
#

looking at her personality easily debunks her being capable of being the luminous being, simply because she is not even remotely kind or compacinate, something the luminous being is known to be just as much as they are cold or harsh

merry rune
#

she also seems way too interwoven with the world

jagged apex
#

plus despite her mysterious nature, we know a lot more about her and her role in the cosmos compared to the luminous being

merry rune
#

im reading up a little now

#

but its definitely more reasonable than what i thought was meant haha

#

i was thinking of the god of pain

#

loviatar

#

"maiden of pain" is why i confused it

jagged apex
#

yeah loviatar is a proper god of pain and a setting specific deity, but yeah, i can see how one might accidently be confusing the two given loviatar does not seem to get as much focus as other gods in the realms

merry rune
#

moreso just the name

jagged apex
#

lol, probably was the closest she could get without drawing the lady of pain's ire

#

cuz something tells me that the primordial being that can keep out all the gods from the center hub of the multiverse would win any sort of lawsuit esc claim since she easily would likely predate laviatar, plus given people intentionally trying to worship her annoys her, one can only image what would happen if it were by mistake if they both had the same title

storm dagger
#

The lady of Pain is meant to be a cipher. A deliberately unclear nature

#

Over deities are also fairly mysterious and are a bit similar to her from Ao’s example. So if you wanted to you could say she’s the Over Deity of Sigil.

fathom pond
fathom pond
#

I don’t see the information about the Luminous Being or Lady of Pain as contradictory either. It’s very basic theology / exegesis exercise of thought…

jagged apex
#

one is noted as being kind and warm in addition to being cold and harsh, while the other is specifically noted as being not kind or compassionate at all, seems pretty contradictory to me

fathom pond
jagged apex
#

eh, agree to disagree, they still seem pretty distinct from one another at least just purely going off published lore

#

also don't gotta ping me when the thing you are replying to literally is the last thing said

fathom pond
sterile veldt
fading violet
#

So I've got a question about the "Cult of Black Earth" (Princes of the Apocalypse, Forgotten Realms) worshipping Ogrémoch, who is also in Greyhawk ...why isn't his cult also in Greyhawk? If it is, please share the reference.

feral lintel
calm crest
#

The Cult originated from Oerth and spread from there.

fading violet
#

so if I'm trying to stay to canon, the Cult does - in fact - exist in Greyhawk ...specifically Legends of Greyhawk, correct?

feral lintel
#

in fact that is where they are from

fading violet
#

Sorry... I'm somewhat confused now. Forgotten Realms is set in Faerun on Abeir-Toril while Greyhawk is on Oerth. Where does it say the Cult went from Abeir-Toril to Oerth?

unborn light
#

It's probably the other way around, Greyhawk had it, so let's port it over to FR

#

Elemental Cults of Evil for everyone!

gritty ferry
#

how do Dragons even become a Greatwyrm?

feral lintel
#

Absorbing their echoes

gritty ferry
#

as in their alternate selves?

feral lintel
#

yes

jagged apex
#

or other similar means of amassing large amounts of power over time, the echoes thing is specific to 5e as the primary way/example

feral lintel
#

Often a chromatic greatwyrm’s ascension involves fusing the power of a single dragon’s echoes across different worlds of the Material Plane.

More so even than their chromatic and metallic kin, gem dragons are fascinated with cultivating their dragonsight and fusing the awareness of their echoes across the Material Plane.

Some of the oldest and wisest metallic dragons undergo a miraculous metamorphosis to become greatwyrms. This transformation is often wrought by Bahamut, who takes pride in elevating his worthiest children to a status approaching his own greatness.

A metallic greatwyrm’s transformation often involves fusing the consciousness, the magic, and sometimes even the physical forms of multiple echoes of the same dragon across the worlds of the Material Plane.

jagged apex
#

to quote fizban's treasury of dragons, sepcifically what is described in the life span section on dragons as a whole "The oldest ancient dragons sometimes transform into mythic creatures of godlike power. These greatwyrms, described in chapter 6, are nearly perfect avatars of draconic nature and are so suffused with the magic of the Material Plane that they are all but immortal. Many result from ancient dragons ritually combining multiple echoes of themselves into a single corporeal form, as Ashardalon and Chronepsis are said to have done. Most greatwyrms are at least twelve centuries old and have hoards worth millions of gold pieces, but they are otherwise similar to other ancient dragons in their goals and perspectives." end quote

#

the wording implies there are other methods, but the ritual to combine one's echoes into a single form is the most known way as it has been achieved in the 5e continuity by 2 distinct such dragons

storm dagger
#

Like to be clear the cult itself did not spread world to world, but worshipping of Orgremoch is on multiple worlds

hot compass
#

Why are goblins fey now??? Isn’t there whole deal that they are super separated from their origins as fey

feral lintel
#

ever since Monsters of the Multiverse, theyve been going back to their more Fey ancestries

hot compass
feral lintel
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

hot compass
#

Yeah that’s pretty much what i though the awnser was thank you

unkempt merlin
storm dagger
#

To be exact while they are currently considered Fey they are not really much different from how they always were portrayed

#

Like they are not ageless or possessing of any supernatural powers other beings can’t acquire

jagged apex
#

i believe this is something they addressed in the lead up to the 2024 books with them and many other creatures who's creature types were reclassified

storm dagger
#

Just they have fey origins while Elves do not

#

Elves contected themselves to the fey later, and only a small subset of them are true fey

jagged apex
#

plus remember the new core books are ment to be setting agnostic they kind of give you the answer right out the gate

#

to quote "Goblins are Feywild embodiments of recklessness and ruin. They delight in wreckage—the louder, the more energetic, and the more convoluted, the better. Goblin raids are often as much opportunities to enjoy setting fires and tormenting livestock as they are parts of more disruptive plots." end quote

#

so goblins are, when devoid of any setting specific lore, are rooted firmly in the feywilds and thus fey, even if they go on to live on the prime material plane or what have you

#

and to quote the phb elves "Created by the god Corellon, the first elves could change their forms at will. They lost this ability when Corellon cursed them for plotting with the deity Lolth, who tried and failed to usurp Corellon’s dominion. When Lolth was cast into the Abyss, most elves renounced her and earned Corellon’s forgiveness, but that which Corellon had taken from them was lost forever.

No longer able to shape-shift at will, the elves retreated to the Feywild, where their sorrow was deepened by that plane’s influence. Over time, curiosity led many of them to explore other planes of existence, including worlds in the Material Plane." end quote

#

in a way they lost their connection to the fey and only some remained in the feywild and thus eventually became fey by virtue of exposure to the plane's energies, at best elves only have a a fraction of their fey ancestries left these days, where as the goblins did not go through such an experience, i admit with the elves it is a bit more indirect so you have to do some guess work or reading between the lines

calm crest
#

Putting this here so I can respond in the correct context.

#

@brittle plank The answer varies somewhat from setting to setting, but the general answer is not in the way you’re describing. Earnest belief, and not necessarily in a deific being, is the requirement to being a cleric.

#

On Eberron, the existence of gods is ambiguous; on Athas, gods have abandoned mortals (or never existed in the 2e continuity); on Mystara, there are no gods, only the mighty Immortals. In many other settings, gods can physically manifest and actively participate in mortal affairs.

#

In the core D&D multiverse, only really the Athar are considered effectively atheistic. They recognize that there are beings who call themselves gods, but consider these beings to not be truly divine, more akin to powerful mages who crowdsource their magic.

#

In some settings, clerics can be empowered by divine forces without the cleric voluntarily choosing this path. Krynn during the beginning of the War of the Lance as the gods return is an example of this.

brittle plank
#

ok ty

solemn mica
# brittle plank ok ty

To add to that... Being strictly atheist would be exceedingly rare in D&D. In most settings, the gods are known entities. They've been seen, interacted with, documented, with measurable influence on the world. In somewhere like the Forgotten Realms, believing Gods don't exist would kind of be like being a Flat-Earther.

calm crest
#

It is for this reason the Athar reside in Sigil and the base of the Outlands’ Spire, the two places where gods have no power.

#

They tend not to take too kindly to being publicly denounced.

#

Historically, Realmspace was especially harsh towards mortals who did not cast their lot in with any god, although that portion of the Fugue Plane is no longer extant.

solemn mica
#

Yeah. I think it might be more plausible for an individual to believe a particular god is a sham. But even then, the thing about gods is that they have opinions. And some are ... Less kind to slights than others. Being a "god fearing" individual is the sane take

merry rune
#

A certain opposing philosophy could be called atheist too. Someone who rejects gods worship etc

modest badger
#

While getting a little away from the lore, here are some useful terms for D&D:

  • Alatrism: Accepting the existence of gods, but not feeling the need to worship any.
  • Henotheism: Accepting the existence of multiple gods, but worshipping only one
  • Dysthiesm/ Misothiesm- Acceptance of the exisntence of gods, but being opposed to them.

All exist in most D&D worlds. The last one seen in things like Ur Priests, Henotheism seen in how clerics can dedicate themself particularily to one god, and alatrism in how you can have folk who do not worship any god (Such as in the retconned 'Wall of the Faithless' in Faerun).

solemn mica
jagged apex
#

the netherese kind of had that, but more so believing the gods were not actually things worth worshiping and were just mages at a certain level of power

#

but far as i know believing the gods are out right lies would really only be reasonable in a world like eberron where the gods are not a known fact of existence to most people in some capacity

#

or at least if you are in planescape the faction known as Athar, though technically they believe the gods to be frauds rather than lies out right

feral lintel
#

How long ago is hte fall of netherese? A player of mine is thinking about being a construct from that age

merry rune
#

Hey its my warforged player

unborn light
#

Unsure exactly, but its like at least a thousand years, or two, or three

merry rune
#

350 before dr

#

I dont remember exact number rn

#

But theyd be about 1700 years old in 5e

#

Or older if created long before the fall

feral lintel
#

sweet, that checks out then

calm crest
#

Around 1900+ years, approximately.

#

Since Karsus’ Folly was 1840 years before present day in 5e’24.

#

Barring something like accidentally stumbling into a time gate.

merry rune
#

Huh

#

What year is it in current dnd?

calm crest
#

1501 DR. Netheril’s fall was –339 DR.

merry rune
#

Mhm

jagged apex
#

at least that is the most current year we know of in the forgotten realms, different settings obviously have different calanders and potentially different rates for how time flows compared to another world

calm crest
#

Correct. Based on the ages of the Heroes of the Realm featured in 2024 content, it would seem that the D&D universe’s Earth is in the early to mid 1990s.

thorny hound
#

how do Bards get their magic again? Wizards learn it, Sorcerers are either born or gifted it, Warlocks borrow it, Druids utilize nature but Bards???

fathom pond
thorny hound
fathom pond
#

Fun fact : I don’t have a headcanon on bards because in 30+ years I never had one at the table. 😅

thorny hound
thorny hound
#

so they convince the Weave itself with music, song, dance, performance, etc to cast magic?

calm crest
#

Bards in the 5e continuity have unearthed portions of the Words of Creation and draw their magic from performing them.

grim siren
#

The furthest in the future on any detail of the realms is the novel Dawnbringer with parts set in 1600 DR.

#

And in the 4e Living FR adventure QUES2-01 Stir Not the World's Doom the players meet an adventuring party from 2421 DR

plucky cosmos
#

how long has vecna been around for in the lore? is he a relatively new god or has he been around for a while

feral lintel
#

hes been around since Oerth

plucky cosmos
#

and Oerth has been around for how long again?

feral lintel
#

since the start of DND

#

it was the initial setting of Gary Gygax

plucky cosmos
#

no I mean like in the lore, how long has vecna been around for

feral lintel
#

hard to tell, with his godhood and timey wimey shenanigans

plucky cosmos
#

yeah

#

I'd imagine a couple million years at the absolute least

feral lintel
#

i would not say couple million

plucky cosmos
#

eh maybe

feral lintel
#

i dont think Oerth even has that much history...

plucky cosmos
#

if he's less than a few million years I'd imagine that makes him a pretty young god

calm crest
#

Vecna is around a thousand.

#

Most deities haven’t lived for a million years.

#

If we are to assume the current year listed in the DMG’24 is accurate (576 CY), then Vecna is still a demigod in the modern continuity and wouldn’t become a full deity for 5 more years.

#

Asmodeus has lived for millions of years (depending on which origin is true). Jergal is plausibly millions of years old, as he is regarded as ancient compared to the other greater gods in the time of Netheril, being so old his appearance resembles an unrecognizably extinct species. Most gods are only millennia to centuries old.

#

The TL;DR is that Vecna was mortal within living memory for elves. He’s a rather young human-turned-lich-turned-god, relative to both liches and deities in general.

#

Larloch is older than Vecna.

#

Even Elminster, a living human mage, is possibly older at 1289 years of age.

jagged apex
#

i am not sure larloch is older, is tricky cuz vecna not only is a rather old lich himself but also even before divinity had managed to acquire a means of time travel, at least as i understand it, in the form of the black obelisks

plucky cosmos
#

who do you think is the oldest diety in general?

jagged apex
#

a pointless question

plucky cosmos
#

it's only curiosity

jagged apex
#

gods at a baseline in dnd are typically beyond linear time, and in the whole of the multiverse there are countless known and unknown gods of varying kinds

plucky cosmos
jagged apex
#

i say it is a pointless question cuz there is no way to get a solid, let alone definitive answer, the first world implies bahamut, tiamat, sardior, and other major gods were already around before the first world was even finished, not to mention the many other origins of not just any one setting but the entire multiverse

calm crest
jagged apex
plucky cosmos
calm crest
#

Eh, depends on the god.

storm dagger
#

Losing all worship can also kill them.

#

depending on setting

plucky cosmos
calm crest
#

He’s still around.

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

Jergal still has worshipers.

plucky cosmos
storm dagger
#

He's just more minor

calm crest
#

Yes.

plucky cosmos
#

huh

#

so what's he the god of?

calm crest
#

He’s a Lesser Deity currently.

plucky cosmos
#

is he still the scribe of the dead

plucky cosmos
calm crest
#

“Records of the dead.”

jagged apex
plucky cosmos
#

kelevmor I think

storm dagger
#

He's considered a demi power

plucky cosmos
storm dagger
#

He served Myrkul, then Cyric, then Kelemvor

jagged apex
#

well sort of, still a god, but a low ranking one

calm crest
#

Yes, he’s a demipower serving (supervising) Kelemvor.

plucky cosmos
#

talking about the dead 3, if I recall correctly bane was initially the most powerful of the three, but has that changed?

storm dagger
#

His portoflios are considered
Fatalism
Guardian of tombs
Proper burial

jagged apex
storm dagger
plucky cosmos
storm dagger
#

Correct

jagged apex
plucky cosmos
#

also is baldur's gate 3 remotely canon?

jagged apex
#

yes and no

feral lintel
#

its own continuity

plucky cosmos
#

well canon in the D&D sense

calm crest
#

Yes. It is referenced in the 2024 FR content.

storm dagger
#

It's events in some fashion are considered to have taken place.

calm crest
#

So at least one version of it is considered to have occurred.

plucky cosmos
#

yeah I wonder because I was playing BG3 earlier and an NPC mentioned the descent, which is an event that did happen in the FR

jagged apex
#

dnd has always had multiple continuities and the absolute crisis is refferenced in newer materials but the specifics are typically vauge

storm dagger
#

the exact details won't be made clear beyond the Absolute not winning.

calm crest
#

It’s akin to any other module appearing in canon.

plucky cosmos
jagged apex
#

lore in dnd is never gunna be simply canon vs non canon, much like alignment it is far more nuanced than people tend to assume

storm dagger
#

Probably not.

plucky cosmos
#

yeah probably not

#

I think all of the acts of BG3 could probably be campaigns themselves, probably excluding act 1

#

mayhaps they could make a starter pack like heroes of the borderlands?

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

For the most part BG III happened in 1492

#

and the Current Date is 1501

#

So the events are nine years old at the current timeline.

jagged apex
#

but seems unlikely as it is best as it was designed for and at most related materials will be made but not a full on adaptation that would risk ruining part of what it did right

plucky cosmos
#

yeah probably

#

I do however really want to play as a bhaalspawn at the table

storm dagger
#

On the Dead three Bane and Myrkul were considered basicly equal, and Bhaal was vastly behind.

plucky cosmos
storm dagger
#

After their deaths Bane came back first, and amassed greater power than he had ever had.

plucky cosmos
#

because there's a lot of evil dudes out there

plucky cosmos
storm dagger
#

Yes during the Time of Troubles they broke the one rule Ao the Overgod set to try and gain more power for themselves.

#

Stealing the Tablets of Fate.

plucky cosmos
#

damn

#

to think those three were mortals at some point too is kinda scary

storm dagger
#

Ao as punishment forced all gods to wonder the Realms in their avatars

plucky cosmos
#

like the amount of power one can get

calm crest
storm dagger
#

During this period Bane and Torm killed each other, then Bhaal was killed by the Mortal Cyric with the help of the God Mask.

#

Myrkul tried to obtained the Tablets of Fate by was slain by the Wizard Midnight boosted by the power of the dead Mystra who died early in the crisis.

#

Midnight along with Cyric returned the Tablets to Ao after that. And he destoryed them as it turns out they had no real power.

#

Ao basically put them there as an excuse to shake things up if ever anyone dared break the one rule he set.

#

He revived Torm as Torm had followed his duty exactly, and gave Midnight the Domain of Magic from the Dead Mystra elevating her to godhood.

#

And he gave the Domains of the Dead Three to Cyric to elevate him.

calm crest
storm dagger
#

Midnight shortly afterwards changed her name to Mystra to make the changes in the followings easier.

plucky cosmos
#

what was lathander doing

#

?

storm dagger
#

He was wondering but I don’t think he had a notable role

storm dagger
#

But he was too limited in his ideas and approach to the point he degenerated his portfolio to the more limited Murder

#

He was never really able to be more than a lackey to Myrkul and Bane despite originally posturing as their equal

#

Before Baldur’s Gate games he was considered a dead nobody at best

plucky cosmos
feral lintel
#

a lot of gods wont have much notable roles in everything

#

theres over 700(?) gods in FR alone

plucky cosmos
#

silvanus was just chilling in a grove somewhere

jagged apex
#

is possible he was not cast down, as not every god was, just most of the major ones, as we know Helm was left to guard the celestial staircase and Ao only has influence over realmspace and toril has gods that are multispherical ie worshiped in multiple settings, but at the very least seems if silvanus if he was cast down, nobody has found any mention of what he did during the time of troubles https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Silvanus#History

hollow ravine
#

Hey I’m making a tiefling sorcerer with draconic lineage but tiefling Lore is confusing me are they children of asmodeous?

calm crest
#

In 4e, all tieflings were transformed into scions of Asmodeus during his ascendancy to godhood. Both before and after, they have many origins.

feral lintel
#

According to later sources in 5e, that gamble failed

hollow ravine
#

So were they human at that point?

feral lintel
#

so it seemed to be retconned

calm crest
#

In 5e, they are either 2+ generations removed from a fiendish ancestor, they (or their ancestors) have made a pact with a fiend that transformed them into tieflings, or they are essentially irradiated by a lower plane.

feral lintel
hollow ravine
#

Ok cool it seems the lore has changed and that’s where the confusion came from

#

How do pacts work in Lore?

calm crest
#

Yeah, 4e caused a lot of retcons to older lore, many of which were then retconned again.

feral lintel
hollow ravine
#

Ok cool so I can write the details?

feral lintel
#

its up to you and DM to flesh out

calm crest
hollow ravine
#

Ok so I could just say my founding ancestor made a pact with a fiend and a dragon and that would work as a backstory?

feral lintel
#

As long as DM approves

calm crest
#

There's Ashardolon who is a red greatwyrm with a balor for a heart.

storm dagger
storm dagger
storm dagger
calm crest
#

That's fair.

hollow ravine
storm dagger
#

The DMG has a list of notable lore people

hollow ravine
#

I will look over that when I have the time

jagged apex
#

dragons have a lot of magic that can influence the territories they reside in, so a tiefling born in such an area especially on like the edge of it would make some degree of sense for them to have a thin draconic connection for sorcery in their blood

#

to quote the setting agnostic flavor text/info from the 2024 core books for the class "Your innate magic comes from the gift of a dragon. Perhaps an ancient dragon facing death bequeathed some of its magical power to you or your ancestor. You might have absorbed magic from a site infused with dragons’ power. Or perhaps you handled a treasure taken from a dragon’s hoard that was steeped in draconic power. Or you might have a dragon for an ancestor." end quote

#

the source of the draconic power and the fiendish essence don't have to be from the same source

hollow ravine
#

This is good to know!

jagged apex
#

making a pact for magic is more of a warlock thing typically to my knowledge

hollow ravine
#

How violent are red dragons? Would it make sense for a village to be around one?

jagged apex
#

well they are prone to much rage, but they also sleep for long periods at a time, so is very much possible for a village to be unknowingly founded in one's territory especially while said dragon is asleep

storm dagger
#

They tend to be huge tyrants

#

Luckily lots tend to also be lazy and if there is towns and such in what they consider their territory they generally go for extortion over burning it down

unborn light
#

Unless there's some kind of arrangement, feed me sheep and gold and I wont burn your village

jagged apex
#

though given their preffered lairs and such are in rather remote or inhospitable locations to most people so is rare but by no means impossible to quote "Red dragons lair in mountain badlands and high, isolated peaks and hills, preferring warm caverns in the rocky depths beneath those landscapes." end quote from fizban's treasury of dragons which is setting agnostic

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and this more or less lines up with what is also in the setting angostic monster manual "Red dragons make their lairs amid perilous cliffs and volcanoes. Within, they amass and fiercely protect hoards of treasure, and many have perfect recall of the hoards' contents and the locations of all they’ve collected. Should anything go missing, red dragons fly into rages. They don’t rest until their treasures are returned and the thieves have burned." end quote

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and with races like orcs, goliaths, there are some peoples who can make small villiages in such places, plus with the size and age of a dragon their territory takes up more and more of an area with the lair typically in the center