#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 78 of 1

reef cape
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It's more like they lack the cosmic level required, I think

jagged apex
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and then Cthulhu is a more classic and wider known example from other media, so those two being key examples to get a name drop should be a good enough reference point to get the idea of what they beings are at their core

severe basin
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So is a Prerequisite for being a great old one being too strong to be defeated by mortals

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Like if they can be stat blocked they can't qualify as a great old one

jagged apex
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it is not a matter of strength

severe basin
jagged apex
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is more so a matter of your nature being alien beyond what reality has

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to where even a god is only in the most vague terms even close to accurate

reef cape
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I mean the scale of the creature, more than the level of power. The examples given of elder gods are all things that exist in multiple dimensions, you know?

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It's really hard to express.

severe basin
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Ahh

reef cape
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Beholders, for all their alien-ness, are creatures of the material. Or whichever plane a given beholder decides to dwell in.

severe basin
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They aren't native to the material though I thought

jagged apex
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like Zargon is mentioned at he has a 5e statblock, statblocks are merely their abilities as they pertain to a traditional combat encounter and are thus not nessissarily representitive of their true power

reef cape
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I don't mean the material like the material plane, I mean they're literally creatures made of matter.

jagged apex
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like a the avatar of a powerful god of life, would for example in that context be fairly weak

severe basin
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Ohhh

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I see

reef cape
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Everyone else on this list exists on multiple levels above and beyond matter.

severe basin
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Gotcha

reef cape
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That's what I wanted to express when I said that they exist in multiple dimensions.

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Tharizdun has parts of himself in multiple places, whispering to the archo-elementals. Hadar is a star that travels through space while still existing in the far realm... You get the idea

jagged apex
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and was also so powerful many beings, gods and others had to work together to stop him, sealing him in a prison that basically uses his own power against him but can be broken the second he realizes the true nature of the place he is in

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and even then he still has ways of influencing the multiverse independant of him actual self

jagged apex
crude blaze
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Yeah, Tharizdun kinda walks a fine line between being a god, an ancient elemental, and an aberration all at the same time

unkempt merlin
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My first 3 thoughts would be
A) a group from Q'barra, as that is where a lot of scaled folk are from, in particular from one of the lizardfolk tribes, the Poison Dusk, or one of the various other groups there
B) A special program from House Vadalis (the mark of handling), working with enhanced special drakes from their magebreeding programs
C) A little bit of extra flavor pull on it but a Talenta halfling. Where the drake is less a dragon and more a spirit dinosaur they call upon.

(obviously for a human, the third option is less available, but could work that into a fun story)

modest badger
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(Tharizdun has a very complicated publication history, so ends up being several concepts merged)

jagged apex
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the one thing that can be said for certain, well two things i guess, is he is insane ie mad, and is a threat to the entire dnd multiverse

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from what i understand his end goal is to destroy the entire dnd multiverse and everything in it, himself included, and then remake it in his own twisted image

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and a lot of his followers are more or less ignorant of this and opperating off their own ideas of what their mad god's goals are

crude blaze
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I think even in settings where it does seem like a god, other gods tend to shun Tharizdun as something so mad and beyond control that they don’t even try to identify with it anymore

compact patio
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I'm not really too familiar with the whole mark thing, but is there like, a mark of handling human?

jagged apex
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last i checked beings with the power of a god but none of the proper status are classified as "Powers"

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but to your average mortal that is like splitting hairs

jagged apex
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cuz as understand it, if he connects to one of his worshipers somehow, he will realize he is in a false reality and thus break free, then it's basically GG for the entire multiverse

unkempt merlin
compact patio
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Reading the mechanics of it it looks a little redundant considering he's already a ranger

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Could he have a different mark and still be connected to that house or is it handling only?

unkempt merlin
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the house is associated with the mark

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(mechanics wise, imo its definitely not redundant: its complementary but thats not a lore thing)

calm crest
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Regular Mystaran demons are deadlier by an order of magnitude.

jagged apex
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well the 5e incarnation is cr 17, but that is more mechanics, point is their power in universe does not always translate to game mechanics and statistics

calm crest
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Granted, when 3.5 adapted Zargon for settings other than Mystara, they did so very loosely, making it Lawful Evil rather than Chaotic and classifying it as a full-grown ancient Baatorian.

compact patio
calm crest
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Which I do think the ancient Baatorians are very interesting, and we get even less information on them than on the Obyriths.

jagged apex
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if going by his baatorian origin, he got kicked out when asmodeus crashed in

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which i find funny, even in a weakened stated before any recovery he was presumably able to kick out the guy who was previously in charge

crude blaze
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Same with creatures like aboleth, who seem to be relatively low CR for immortal creatures, but that’s just because they just reform in the Far Realm (iirc) after you destroy their physical form.

jagged apex
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even though with that one, at least back in the 2014 version the one we got details on for 5e for some reason was the ones historically specialized in slave acquisition

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not sure if that was true and if it was would still be true with the new version but at least gives a minimal bar of their baseline strength in that regard

storm dagger
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Zargon has pretty much always been powerful, but not overly powerful

crude blaze
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Yeah, he’s kinda “lower tier” in comparison to other elder evils

storm dagger
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Like he’s a final boss type for 10th or 11th level characters

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His primary gimmick is that he’s the returner so defeating him doesn’t mean much

jagged apex
storm dagger
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His profile in 5e mentions he actually enjoys the feeling of death once in a while

jagged apex
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truely alien, as most life has a sort of natural built in avoidance of death in favor of survival

storm dagger
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He’s mainly a corrupting monster who decided posing as a god was an easy way to get food

reef cape
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Smart cookie that one. Once you get people to believe you're a god, you'll never go hungry.

crude blaze
jagged apex
storm dagger
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Or grab other people for you

jagged apex
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either way, the food is gunna be consistently in arm's, er, tenticle's reach, less you wind up not eating for a while, but if you are immortal that is probably just uncomfortable rather than life threatening

reef cape
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But yes, the curious thing about Aboleths is that they may be the only completely, truly and utterly immortal creatures in D&D.

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Just about everything else, there's a way

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For Aboleths? It seems their own brand of immortality is simply absolute.

storm dagger
reef cape
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Oh, 2024 Monster Manual?

storm dagger
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Yep

jagged apex
reef cape
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I really should pay more attention when reading the new books.

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Oh, that's interesting. So, essentially, while most reform in the Far Realm, they are still capable of reforming in a place of their choosing? Is it just me or does that make their immortality seem even more untouchable?

jagged apex
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honestly it kind of already was, just means is harder to spawn camp them XD

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as if finding a specific being in an infinite plane of existance was not already hard

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is even baked into the mechanics so by RAW if anything now death is simply temperary

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at least for them

modest badger
# jagged apex the one thing that can be said for certain, well two things i guess, is he is in...

If interested I went in a deep dive on Tharizdun and how he ended up merged with the Elemental Evil Eye/God (Ghaunadaur) and how that confuses matters ( Actually I was discussing it with you dndLol ): #dnd-lore message

Summary is in AD&D Tharizdun is god of entropy and void. Barely has any lore, is left mysterious, somehow connected to the light spectrum/radiation and the lack there of (entropy). Drives mad, is imprisoned. Described more as a figure of pure darkness and void, leaving cold in his wake.

Then in 3e Is merged with EEG (Elder Elemental Eye) who is more a primordial chaos, a chaoskampf like figure. Lovecraftian tentacle monster, causes madness, linked to the four elements.

They end up being almost an embodiment of the abyss itself, or creator of the abyss, the very chaos and evil that demons sprung from in 4e. "The title of the Elder Elemental Eye refers not to a primordial but to the Chained God, Tharizdun-the mad, figurative father of the Abyss. " (The Plane Below, p.38)

Juibilex also sometimes gets thrown in that mix for fun.

jagged apex
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and Juibilex and Ghaunadaur both being part of the mix, makes it even more interesting given the two entity's histories against each other in the realms and why presumably one is considered the aspect or alias of the other

jagged apex
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so yeah if you create something that is apparently semi-sentinent i'd say that makes you it's father or if not some other sort of parent XD

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of course as i recall he was wrong in assuming that just cuz he created it that the beings he would make from it would just do what ever he wanted, though is possible i am misremembering if any of that sounds off

modest badger
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Yep, that'd be 4e lore if I recall correctly (The Planes Below and 4e MM go into it)

But it's why you get weird things like 'Yeah the cult of Elemental Evil worships uh... Tharizdun?'. Tharizdun originally would not have been connected to that at all, an that was EEG's thing.

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But then again that cult has always been weird, because the original Temple of Elemental Evil cult thought they were worshipping (or being tricked into worshipping) Zuggtmoy of all things (funny then she gets to share a realm with Juiblex, another god/demon loard who gets connected to this all)

jagged apex
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well from what i understand as pointed out in bigby's most who worship the elder elemental eye as part of the elemental cults, don't have any idea it is actually tharzidun or connected to him in any way

calm crest
jagged apex
modest badger
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Yeah, confusion there because Lolth was the original intended big bad of the Temple of Elemental Evil.

reef cape
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Interesting behind the scenes stuff. Why did they change that?

calm crest
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This was also before she was strongly associated with Drow.

jagged apex
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from what i am aware lolth and zuggtmoy at one point competed for worshipers in the underdark, as zuggtmoy would be reasonable for her to seek godhood via those races given how life giving an supportive to life fungi is done there in place of traditional plants

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of course the crazy ex-wife former elf godess won out in the end

jagged apex
calm crest
latent musk
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Huhh

modest badger
# reef cape Interesting behind the scenes stuff. Why did they change that?

Gygax started writing the Giant to Drow series, which had the EEG as the hidden big bad, and Lolth as the Red Herring almost. Lolth in Vault of the Drow even has four keys associated with the Temple of Elemental evil (iron pyramid, silver sphere, bronze star, and blue crystal cube, mirroring the black triangle (Earth), blue circle (Air), red 'star' (overlapping diamonds, fire), green square (water) of the ToEE (the colours and shapes get confused even in the module). You see shrines to EEG pop up in the giant series, the drow who are behind the raid have tentacle rods and worship EEG.

He also started writing Village of Hommlet and part of The Temple of Elemental Evil, which makes reference to lolth and these symbols, and EEG with the 'eye of fire, an Y in an inverted triangle).

But then Gygax realised he couldn't have both Lolth in the Vault and trapped in the Temple and he also had to go to Hollywood, so his notes ended up shared to Mentzer (who finished the ToEE series, used Zuggtmoy) and Sutherland (who finished the drow series with the Queen of the Demonweb) and both dropped the EEG angle entirely.

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So the Secret Big Bad behind a majority of the most famous 1e modules was never actually revealed or used. Ends up eventually merged with a god who appears in a single module (Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun).

calm crest
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Which is a neat, but very challenging, module connected to S4 and thus tangentially Tasha.

modest badger
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This is also why priestesses of Lolth for some reason ended up using tentacle rods in some editions, despite those weapons never actually being associated with Lolth.

reef cape
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Interesting! Thank you for the history

calm crest
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And the EEG is referenced in the A series of modules as well. Basically every major 1e Greyhawk module path.

modest badger
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Pinging you in #dnd-elder-editions because I'm interested in that but we have definitely moved away from pure lore here to older module discussion.

storm dagger
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Ghauandour was not the Elder Elemental Eye as that was brought up before him.

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5e has actually tried to separate the Eye and Tharizdun

modest badger
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I suppose you could say Ghaunadaur is the equivalent of EEE and uses the same symbols in places, but was very much introduced as the FR setting's EEE:

FOR2 Drow of the Underdark:

Drow who worship Lolth do not generally speak of or recognize drow who don’t. The other faiths held by drow include worshippers of Eilistraee, the goddess of song; Ghaunadaur, the “Elder Elemental God;” and Vhaeraun, the god of thievery and the furthering of drow power in the surface world, mostly worshipped by males.

Most humans find the worship of Ghaunadaur (**also known as “The Elder Elemental God,” “The Elder Eye,” **or “Gormauth Souldrinker”) disgusting, but there are secret, subterranean altars and cults to the Eye all over Toril, particularly in the older and more degenerate lands of the Sword Coast South, Thay, and Kara-Tur.

2e Monster Mythology 1992 relates EEE/EEG to Ghaunadaur and Juiblex, and under EEE's section:

Readers of FOR2, The Drow of the Underdark, will find a specific form for this god in the Forgotten Realms, that of Ghaunadaur. The version presented there is one which fuses the identity of the (EEG), with that of an entity which appears to be its servant in some manner, Juiblex. In this book (EEG) and Juiblex are separated and statistics for both are provided. In Most worlds, their followings have a very distinctive difference."

2e Demihuman deities 1998 reiterates this but does imply more that Ghaunadaur =/= EEE or Juiblex, but plays their role in FR.

Although Ghaunadaur is a distinct entity unrelated to the tana'ri lord Juiblex, the Faceless Lord, or the otherwise unnamed Elder Elemental God, neither of the latter two powers is active in the Realms, and Ghaunadaur has assumed both of their aspects within the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace. Gormauth Souldrinker may have once been the name of a seperate power, but if so, it has long been totally subsumed by That Which Lurks.

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So in Greyhawk you'd have EEE and Juibilex as seperate. In FR (in 2e) you'd have Ghaunadaur.

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Since then, all three have been reintroduced into FR, and EEE was merged with Tharizdun. In Greyhawk Ghaunadaur is still iffy from what I recall, Juibilex is its own thing, and EEE was also merged with Tharizdun.

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And as far as I can see, 5e has kept that. DMG '24 still links Tharizdun to the Element Evil cult, and repeats that connection in Princes of the Apocalypse,

old rock
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Hey I had a question and I was sent here to ask it so I don’t know to much about dnd lore but I know there’s demon lords so does that mean there’s arch devils or arch angels or even gods?

ionic rivet
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Yes there are arch devils, angels, and demi-gods, etc.

reef cape
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Yes, yes, and yes.

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So, to go into a bit more detail!

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  1. The Nine Hells are a relatively complex civilization but the title of arch-devil is given to personally and politically powerful devils who sit at the top of that hierarchy. The most powerful of the archdevils are the layer lords. Those ones rule one of the nine layers.
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  1. D&D doesn't exactly go into details about the celestial planes, but arch-angels that would be equivalent to the arch-fiends have been mentioned
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  1. There are lots of gods. Some gods are demon lords and archdevils! Asmodeus is the archdevil of the ninth layer of hell, ruler of the nine hells and god of tyrants. Lolth is the demon queen of spider and the goddess of dark elves.
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Some gods are actually completely unrelated to demons, devils and angels and do not have relationships with any of those.

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Now, it is a matter of interpretation whether or not demon lords, archdevils and similar creatures count as minor gods. The books flip flop on that relatively often

old rock
# reef cape Yes, yes, and yes.

Wow thanks a lot as a DM and player this will help and also for the last part I would say demon lords are demigods because health range from 200-500 or so and it can be anything that takes over a floor of abyss

reef cape
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That is not what demigod means in the context of D&D.

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In the context of D&D, being divine is (relatively) unrelated to how powerful a creature is. Some creatures are definitely not gods, but are more powerful than creatures who definitely are gods.

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For example: The Lady of Pain, a strange creature inhabiting the city of Sigil, which exists between dimensions, is most likely not a goddess, yet she has, apparently effortlessly, killed many gods who tried to infringe on her territory.

old rock
reef cape
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Again, depending on which book you read, demon lords and archdevils count as minor deities, or they do not, so it is not an easy question to answer.

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As for angels, they originate from mount celestia, one of the planes. Completely on the other side of the multiverse compared to the abyss.

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This game has 50 years and a myriad of writers have worked on its lore. Some ambiguities and contradictions are to be expected.

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As for how a creature becomes a god if it was not born as one... There are multiple answers.

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Some have become gods by killing a god and absorbing its essence, some have become gods through being granted divinity by another god relinquishing a part of their own divinity, some have become gods through powerful magical rituals.

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But most gods were born as such and did not have to work for it.

old rock
reef cape
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Who the most powerful is is impossible to say. Too many factors at play.

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As for where the gods started... If you want Forgotten Realms lore, the common theogony is that the first two goddesses were Shar and Selune, goddesses of darkness and light, respectively. They fought and their fighting gave birth to Mystril, goddess of magic. Just about every other god from the Forgotten Realms is either descended from that, or emigrated one way or another.

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Mask, for example, god of trickery, is the son of Shar.

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But the elven gods are all descended from Corellon Larethian, chief elven god who apparently is just a shapeshifting mass of elemental and primal energy who decided to become sentient and take a relatively humanoid form one day.

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Now, if you want a multiversal theogony, it apparently starts with Asgorath, first dragon god, and Tiamat, Bahamut and Sardor, also dragon gods, forging the first universe, that universe then proceeding to shatter into countless fragment and Annam, patriarch-god of the giants, coming and repairing the multiverse and fixing the fragments in place.

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("Theogony" means "genealogy of the gods", greek term, also the name of a book. If you're explaining the origins of the gods, you're doing a theogony)

old rock
reef cape
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Mount celestia is the angel plane, yes. Unless you meant an angle plane, in which case... Mechanus maybe?

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In the feywilds, you have archfey. Fey equivalents to those archfiends.

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Some of them deities, such as Auril, goddess of winter, who is also apparently a fey.

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Archfey are a very varied bunch. From wizard-queens such as Zybilna to vampire lords like Kannoth to big game hunters like Cerunnos...

feral lintel
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Or the Traveler from Wildemount/Tal Dorei

old rock
feral lintel
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The descriptions for the Creature types can be found in the Monster Manual

reef cape
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I'm not sure I get what you are asking.

old rock
reef cape
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Divinity is the thing gods have that makes them gods.

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As for gods that are also constructs... Maybe Primus, the modron god?

feral lintel
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Primus fits the bill yeah

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And gods are beyond stats or creature types id argue

reef cape
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It's difficult to say.

feral lintel
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Monstrosities is a catch all category

storm dagger
reef cape
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In theory, monstrosities are bestial, and there are plenty of bestial gods. In the Forgotten Realms, there's good old Malar, god of wild beasts?

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Aberrations... I suppose many of the entities worshipped/contacted by aboleths and similar entities would count as aberrations and gods. Ilsensine is essentially an elder brain god.

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But Ilsensine may not actually exist and might just be a metaphor for the ideal elder brain.

storm dagger
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Ilsensine for sure exists

reef cape
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Might not exist in the same way other gods do, I mean.

storm dagger
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It’s domain is detailed in Planescape (recent one)

feral lintel
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Ive dealt with a lot of cultists as well in a certain module....

storm dagger
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And it’s sorta child is a major villain in a module

reef cape
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Alright, my bad! Some previous materials implied that Ilsensine was a more metaphorical entity than gods.

storm dagger
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That was in Volo’s which is legacy material now

reef cape
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I kinda liked this idea to be honest. Volo's Guide had a lot of good ideas.

old rock
reef cape
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In any case, if we can find one thing relatively consistent accross D&D when it comes to divinities is that a good rule of thumb is that the greater the divinity of a creature, the more it gets to be in multiple places and the less bound it is to individual existence.

storm dagger
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The DMG talks about Divine Ranks

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Greater deities are generally the oldest gods of a pantheon, responsible (at least in myth) for creating or parenting the other gods. Their provinces are major areas of nature and mortal life, such as agriculture, the sun, and death. Greater deities are ultimately beyond mortal understanding, and they’re often known by different names across regions, cultures, and worlds. Having no fixed appearance or gender, they can assume whatever forms they like. Occasionally these deities manifest and perform mythic deeds among mortals.
Lesser deities are typically described in myth as the creations, children, or servitors of the greater deities. They govern narrower provinces, such as the activities of mortal life or limited aspects of the natural world. They share the fundamentally ineffable nature of greater gods, but they are more likely to manifest in mortal realms.
Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don’t receive or answer prayers. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory, they could ascend to godhood if they amass enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into the following subcategories:
Demigods are divine beings with mortal origin. Some were born mortal and attained godhood, while others were born from the union of a deity and a mortal. Their mortal parentage makes demigods.
Titans are the creations of deities. They might be manufactured on a divine forge, born from the blood spilled by a god, or otherwise brought about through divine will or substance. Some titans, including krakens and the tarrasque, appear in the Monster Manual.
Vestiges are deities who have lost nearly all their worshipers and are considered dead from a mortal perspective. Esoteric rituals can sometimes contact vestiges and draw on their latent power.

reef cape
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That is way better phrased than the 2014 DMG was. Kudos on that one!

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2014 DMG was relatively confusing and uninformative on the matter of the nature of the gods.

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At least, I found it to be so. Some disagree.

storm dagger
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It’s also mentioned that Deities can have different ranks on different worlds depending on their influence

reef cape
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Different worlds, different rules. Makes sense.

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Tiamat is not as big of a deal in Toril as in Krynn.

storm dagger
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Correct

calm crest
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The “esoteric rituals” part regarding vestiges makes me wonder if WotC has plans to bring back binders…

delicate eagle
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which planescape plane god is most "unkillable"?
I think Primus is pretty unkillable coz If he is killed he is replaced instantly from a creature 1 below him and so on, and also the plane is infinite → infinite creatures

raven needle
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Eh, all gods get replaced. Primus just has an orderly process in place for doing so

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To kill the God of Devils, you'd have to kill all devils. They're just as infinite as modrons. And demons have spent pretty much all of history throwing their even greater infinite resources at that task.

But killing Asmodeus is doable. Very very hard, but not completely impossible. He'll be replaced by another devil who beats out his rival devils, and eventually WotC will write that new devil lord into the pantheon of gods. It'll be a new god of evil, same as the old god of evil. But it won't be Asmodeus.

eager bay
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Since both the god of mindflayers and god of beholders are from the far realm, would it be natural yo assume there's other god-like entities in places like the far realm?

feral lintel
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There are gods for them respectively

eager bay
feral lintel
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And?

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They still are godlike entities in the Far Realm

eager bay
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Meaning they existed before their worshippers

sharp owl
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"places like the far realm" is a bit of a non-statement as there's nowhere like the far realm

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Even the Abyss and Limbo aren't like the Far Realm, which exists outside the greater cosmology of the multiverse

eager bay
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So what if there's other entities comparable in power level that just haven't made a race yet?

feral lintel
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There are probably GOOs at the least

eager bay
sharp owl
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There are entites of god-like power, eldritch beings like great old ones and their kin, who don't get involved in the usual god-stuff but still have followers (worshippers might be the wrong word)
Hadar is one that comes to mind

sharp owl
feral lintel
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in anycase, god-like entities probably do exits in the Far Realm, thats where most GOOs are iirc

sharp owl
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yeah

eager bay
feral lintel
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due to its nature of being the Far Realm though, we do not fully understand it

sharp owl
eager bay
vital cloudBOT
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No pings, please :pray:

If you see someone with “No Pings” in their name, please don’t @ that user. If you Reply to them, please turn the alert @OFF, and if you forget, a simple apology is appreciated. Thank you!

eager bay
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Also, sorry for the ping

sharp owl
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S'all good

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And I'm not sure what you mean about "comparable in power"?

eager bay
sharp owl
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This question feels like it could really be simplified down

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The whole Far Realm part seems largely irrelevant

calm crest
# eager bay Since both the god of mindflayers and god of beholders are from the far realm, w...

The Illithid gods don’t reside in the Far Realm and aren’t from it. They reside in the Outlands. The only possible mind flayer god from it is Thoon, which may be an Elder Evil or even just an abstract alien philosophy. The gods of the beholders also aren’t from or in the Far Realm, but instead the Great Mother is a layer of the Abyss, and Gzemnid also dwells in the Outlands.

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The Far Realm has demonstrated a deleterious effect on mind flayers.

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As for beholders and the Far Realm, things are murkier. The Far Realm is home to gibbering orbs, ancient beings that are a combination of eye tyrant and gibbering mouther. They are theorized to be a common ancestor of those two species, but this isn’t confirmed and would seem to contradict with the existence of the Great Mother.

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It could be that gibbering orbs are beholders corrupted by the Far Realm, just as Illithids of Thoon were corrupted by it (and the kaorti), but this is admittedly speculation.

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Uvuudaums, star spawn, and aboleths are the only confirmed major species native to the Far Realm as far as I know, beyond the general morass of Lovecraftian things.

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And even then star spawn might not be, as only some of their creators are from the Far Realm.

compact patio
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Hey guys, in Eberron, if someone is born with a dragon mark outside of a house, can they still add d' to their name? Do they change their name to that of the house?

calm crest
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Generally only aberrant marks stem from those outside a Dragonmarked House.

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If you marry into a House, you typically take the name.

compact patio
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Ic

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I suppose what I mean is my character is the son of a dragonmarked person who sort of doesn't live with the house, at least, they left a few generations ago and he was the first off shoot to manifest the dragonmark, specifically the mark of handling

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Once house Vadalis found out they brought him in, and his name at birth was Sebastian Veles, so how would he change it? d'Veles? Veles d'Vadalis? Just d'Vadalis?

calm crest
#

Sebastian d’Vadalis, maybe Sebastian Veles d’Vadalis, as far as I know.

compact patio
#

Cool, ty :)

unkempt merlin
#

Foundlings are overall, common enough. ie: people born outside the house with the mark

#

The names are a part of the house however

teal rock
#

Does Moradin actually hate Abbathor? Lore states that they both consider each other enemies yet it also dictates that they're reluctant allies.

cinder cloud
#

I went to both gods wiki pages and neither is mentioned on the other. Where are you getting this lore?

#

The only thing I can see is that it says "Abbathor's relations with his fellow dwarven deities were strained..."

#

Ah I see the source material now

#

Abbathor does not like Moradin and secretly works against him.

#

Moradin's attitude towards Abbathor seems to be indifferent or tolerant.

teal rock
#

The Demihuman Deities book. Idk which edition that is.

cinder cloud
#

AD&D (2e)

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The info above I paraphrased from that.

teal rock
#

Though the book also makes it seem that they weren't full on hostile. In fact it says that Moradin banished Laduguer but not Abbathor.

cinder cloud
#

Yep

teal rock
#

If I was on PC it would be a lot easier to explain myself but the book really makes it seem that the dwarven gods didn't consider Abbathor as a real enemy.

#

Unlike Laduguer, however, Abbathor is tolerated by the other dwarven gods, although none trust him.

jagged apex
#

well to be fair, Abbathor is more or less just the worst traits of dwarves, mainly greed, but it can be assumed that since he was not kicked out of the pantheon, he has not done anything as horrible or unforgivable to warrant being considered any sort of enemy, just a member who is less than pleasant to have to deal with, and mainly wanting wealth means he causes a lot less trouble than Laduguer did https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Laduguer#Personality

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after all gods have little, if any need for material wealth, so unless Abbathor's plots have more significant consiquences to the things that are more important to the gods, is unlikely he is gunna be seen as troublesome and opposed to be considered an enemy

#

not sure where you got the idea of them being enemies or moradin hating him, if he did he would definitely not still be part of the pantheon especially if they were indeed enemies

teal rock
#

Even that book I have mentioned lists Abbathor as one of Moradin's enemies. And like Schmo has stated the wiki gives you the impression that Moradin and Abbathor are irreconcilable enemies.

feral lintel
#

Most likely got retconned

cinder cloud
#

Yeah. The wiki actually doesn't mention anything about their rivalry, other than a throwaway line about relationships being "strained". I wouldn't count that as "irreconcilable" or even "enemies".

The book Deities and Demigods is where the source of enmity comes from. That book says that Abbathor "hates" Moradin for overlooking him in the pantheon, and that he works secretly against both he and Dumathoin. The enmity, however, appears to be one-sided, and he remains part of the Dwarven pantheon in spite of said feelings.

teal rock
#

I see. I was hoping to make a paladin that uses one of those new subclasses. Oath of the Zealot or something like that. I wanted him to choose a deity that hates Abbathor but apparently only some gnomish deities actually dislike him. Along with a few others I think.

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Ah, it's called Oath of Zeal!

fallow comet
#

artic dwarf 👍

humble canyon
#

Im looking for an Artifact, Weapon, Item or ANY tool really that is capable of sealing powerful being's within them. Are there any such things in the lore that would serve this purpose?. Example being " Oh i need a powerful sentient weapon " " You should use Blackrazor " ah perfect!" - im looking for that but with sealing away powerful being's

eager bay
#

Is there any particular set for how differently time travels in the Feywild compared to the material plane?

#

Or is it fickle and capricious, as would seem fitting?

feral lintel
#

Theres no set time or conversion

eager bay
feral lintel
#

bassically yah

eager bay
#

Any good DNd lore podcast ? I like to listen to stuff while I sleep. Must be a podcast I can’t watch YouTube videos while I sleep.

cinder cloud
cinder cloud
cinder cloud
ashen forge
#

Is there any info on the Teardrop Palace? I found out about it through the brief mention of it in the '24 DMG and can't really seem to find any info on the forgotten realms wiki

cinder cloud
#

I found it. There's a big spread in the 2e Planescape book Planes of Conflict

humble canyon
tawny raven
#

What is the difference between a Ghast and a Ghoul?

#

They seem to be the same to me

jagged apex
#

largely a matter of both power and intelligence

#

a ghast in dnd is literally a more powerful version of a ghoul

#

they are ment to be similar and look the same, is a mistake that low level adventurers risk not living long enough to regret or learn from

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to quote the description of their apperance on the forgotten realms wiki "They resembled very closely their undead cousin, except perhaps being just a bit more slender and ghost-like. The stench of death and rot lingered around their undead forms. This stench could often be smelled from a 10 ft (3 m) radius and was terrible enough to cause nausea, retching, and in rare cases even paralysis" end quote

#

in case is not clear, when they say "undead cousin" they are reffering to the average normal version of a ghoul

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

Yeah Ghasts are just stronger more intelligent ghouls. They are also smelly and their paralysis affects elves

eager bay
#

is forgotten realms the go to place

cinder cloud
#

Forgotten Realms is one of many published settings. It is the most commonly published setting for the current edition.

crude blaze
#

If you wanna play in the Forgotten Realms setting, sure

storm dagger
#

Greyhawk is also pretty easy to get into with the DMG chapter on it

leaden umbra
#

There probably isn't even a canonical answer to this but i was just thinking about Tymora.. isn't she in a way the god of humility ? Since none of "my" achievements are my own but rather thanks to her blessings ? Or have i misunderstood what i've read on her FRW entry ?

feral lintel
#

what?

sharp owl
#

I think you're misunderstanding what Tymora being the goddess of luck means

#

It doesn't mean she is responsible for all achievements, she is the goddess who helps mortals succeed where luck or chance is at play

#

This doesn't mean she controls the outcome, but instead pushes the needle in favour of her chosen

crude blaze
#

Yeah, she gives you a little bit of help, but that’s not to say she’s responsible for every win or loss

sharp owl
#

She also tends to favour those who persevere in the face of overwhelming odds. When it comes to Tymora, 60% of the time it works every time

crude blaze
#

I’ve described her in the past as being the deific embodiment of “Bardic Inspiration”. It can be a lot of help, but there’s no guaranteed success.

leaden umbra
#

I also seem to remember that she doesn't do anything for those who actively avoid risks even when they end up in a risky situation ?

jagged apex
#

it does mention despite her personality she did not neglect caution

#

so there is likely a bit of fine line between being cautious and avoiding risk

jagged apex
#

like she is not necessarily gunna get involved with a situation where the mortal in question has never even spoken or interacted with her or her faith in anyway without some reason to do so

#

especially these days since Ao has most of the gods being a lot more hands off in their influence on mortal matters

#

only 3 i know have to have defied this decree being the dead 3, who all were reduced to the status of quasi-deity as a result/punishment

#

even bane who was unlike the others still rather successful in his role as a god prior to that decree, being more powerful than the other two

leaden umbra
#

I don't remember which god it was that i was reading about but the FRW entry seemed to imply that at one point people were worshipping some god but it was actually another one that was responding. Made me wonder about how "powering" a deity works when lets say that i perfectly embody it's teaching but don't actively worship it or perhaps don't even know about it's existence.

jagged apex
#

well gods are empowered by two things last i checked, worship and acts that relate to their portfolio

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is how sometimes you see things like death cults trying to pull off large things resulting in mass death to empower an evil god of death they might worship, but these sources of power are not as sustainable for lack of a better term, compared to consistant worship

warm mantle
#

May be a bit late, but a good way to understand how Tymora acts is to look how Beshaba acts. Beshaba is, paraphrasing, the goddess of misfortune.

You wouldn't worship a deity with the aim of bringing misfortune on you, instead you worship Beshaba so that she uses her powers and remit favourably for you. The work is still yours, she just "decides" how much she might choose to help or hinder you.

Tymora is the same, and so is any deity if you think within their remits.

jagged apex
#

like for example, in the forgotten realms Bhaal is the god of murder, and as part of the faerunian god of violence and ritualistic killing, each such act empowers him but that wears off so is not as viable a means of survival as other gods who get regular worship, as gods in the forgotten realms at least are reliant on worship and to a lesser extent these acts they are tied to, to survive else they will effectively starve for lack of a better term and die which for a god is more like a divine comma

jagged apex
warm mantle
#

I've seen it described before in a great way that deity worship in DnD is like the people handing out water alongside marathons.

You can choose to take the water, but in pretty much all cases aren't expected to, though there is significant social expectation that you will.

You can choose not to take the water, and the good-aligned deities wouldn't think any less of you, provided you were polite.

Evil-aligned deities would likely see it as an unfounded snub, however.

You can choose to not risk relying on someone else providing water and bring your own supplies, though that may or may not impact your outcome.

Harsh treatment of them will ultimately, eventually, result in consequences for you from both "higher powers" and social stigma.

Taking the water will likely have a significant imact at some point on your journey, though you can't know when - if you knew that, you wouldn't be considering the water.

Ultimately though, whatever your choice, the outcome was still forged by you. If you finish with or without the water assistance it is still you who ran the marathon. It doesn't diminish your achievement.

jagged apex
# leaden umbra I don't remember which god it was that i was reading about but the FRW entry see...

far as i know, someone who embodies their teachings yet does not venerate that god who's teachings they embody would not offer any divine power to the deity, save maybe when they performed an act that fell within their portfolio that had significant enough impact or was on a large enough scale, though is rather odd cuz to my knowledge such people don't exist in published materials as is hard to perfectly embody the teachings of a god, especially in settings like the forgotten realms, and not know of them, or to be that dedicated but not venerate them

#

in theory is possible but it is so unlikely to be reasonable i am not aware of any examples

warm mantle
#

Likewise, if you fail, it was you who failed - and if you rejected the water that is all the more reason for people to point out what you should be doing.

jagged apex
#

well even just between good or evil aligned deities, i'd argue that may not be true, as depending on the deity and their personality they may not view it that way some deities good and evil alike do their duties as gods when not for their own gain simply because they must, the gods can be as varied in personality as us mortals

#

cuz there are to my knowledge implied sort of laws among the gods regarding worship and that is why you don't really seeing the faithful of one deity conquring and forcing people to follow their god in dnd, as that is not something that is really allowed

#

like if a mortal were to try such a thing in their god's name, you''d get the ire of your god or be getting them in divine trouble with Ao

warm mantle
jagged apex
#

well last i checked the gods had specific rules against such things and is why you did not see such things in the realms

#

pretty sure any trouble they get in with lord Ao outways any short term gain you might get from such an act

snow laurel
#

I vaguely recall that there were some dragonborn words for being a sword mage or blade singer in 4th edition, maybe related to Arkhosia, but I can't find any info on them. Can anyone help me out?

heady hare
#

does vecna have influence in Toril or he is mostly powerful in Greyhawk?

#

from what i know he is rarely used in campaigns

jagged apex
#

he originates from the greyhawk setting, but is known to have influence and worshipers in the likes of the forgotten realms setting, where toril is located, and is the main bbg of an adventurer, or two if depending on how you wanna look at it, for 5e that are set at least at the start in waterdeep, a city located on toril in the forgotten realms

#

as the god of evil secrets, his worshipers are not public and at least in the realms do so in secret

leaden umbra
# jagged apex in theory is possible but it is so unlikely to be reasonable i am not aware of a...

I intend for my character to actively worship Ilmater, Lathander and Tymora. In some scenarios that i've thought about i'm not entirely sure whether a prayer should be directed at Lathander vs Ilmater or in other cases Lathander vs Tymora. So this got me wondering about which god gets the "brownie points" if i do an act that best fits deity X but offer an arguably misguided prayer to deity Y instead 😄

leaden umbra
eager bay
#

What's the lore behind the yellow musk creeper and yellow musk zombies from tomb of annihilation?

jagged apex
jagged apex
jagged apex
#

they each have different things that they have dominion over and gain power from, none of which are shared

#

at best you might thank two or more of them for the strength to endure your situation till you managed a stroke of good fortune for a change or to have made it till the new dawn, depending on your situation

jagged apex
#

like on toril, there is a reason you don't see paladins of one or more gods going on a sort of crusade to covert people, that stuff does not really fly in the realms

#

like is not touched on much, especially in more recent editions, but the gods of the forgotten realms have rules of what they can and can not do

modest sigil
eager bay
#

Would it make sense for yellow musk creepers to not attack carrion crawlers or carrion stalkers?

jagged apex
#

even down to the gaining of worshipers, for the most part the worshipers must be willing, is another reason why beyond they are simply not allowed to wipe out or subjugate competing fates

jagged apex
# modest sigil Otherwise their dad will get angry :)

yeah, aka Lord Ao, the over deity of the forgotten realms setting, more specifically realmspace, ie anything they do strictly regarding the other planes of existence or settings other than the forgotten realms, he has 0 power and influence and honestly does not have any concern over, but if it affects the forgotten realms setting's material plane/wild space system, aka realmspace, he will step in when he feels is needed or when they do something they are not suppose to that threatens the balance and order of the setting

jagged apex
#

my personal guess would be a yellow musk creeper would attack if they were attacked by one do to the corpse they are animating is potentially something carrion crawlers and stalkers may consider a food source https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Carrion_crawler#Behavior though the stalker seems to be a separate creature mainly associated with the domains of dread but is known to have a symbiotic relationship with the crawler, seeming to come from 2e and having in more recent years been reintroduced into 5e

#

so if nothing else, the creeper would likely attack either creature out of a sense of self preservation, though i could be wrong, nothing i am aware of suggests it would simply let it's host be consumed

leaden umbra
jagged apex
#

not always as the forgotten realms wiki is not always complete or up to date and often summarizes the thing the cite

#

some of the more respected lore youtubers do their research and don't rely on the wikis beyond maybe a collection sources to hunt down and check the actual text of

leaden umbra
#

Can You recommend any such Youtubers ?

jagged apex
#

AJ Pickett personally is my go to

#

but there are others that have been named by others many times in this channel

leaden umbra
jagged apex
#

and definitely Ed Greenwood if wanting realms lore specifically, does not get much more straight from the source than the man that made the setting

jagged apex
leaden umbra
#

Thanks 🙂

jagged apex
#

plus in regards to ed greenwood, he often mentions details and the like that for one reason or another are not in the books for the setting from wizards of the coast

#

one of the best is how in the realms polka music came to the city of waterdeep, is one of those details that is so silly but cool that is true

storm dagger
#

You are allowed to evangalize and promote faith in a certain god over others in the Realms.

#

Conversion only has to be semi willing. Like the Moonsea region primarily worships Bane and outlaws worship of most other gods.

#

This is because Bane as god of Tyranny is right to do that stuff.

#

Keepers of the Balance, you have summoned me needlessly.... Cyric is Lord of Murder, so he should strive to blot out even the lives of gods. Mask is Lord of Intrigue, so he should strive to conceal such deeds. It is your responsibility to stand against Cyric—just as it is his to destroy you if you fail.

#

Ao does not interfere in almost all cases.

old rock
#

Hey I had a question are there arch angels in dnd? If there is how many and what are their names?

cinder cloud
calm crest
#

Older editions had celestial paragons.

#

Check the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds for them.

calm crest
#

If by archangel, you mean the good-aligned equivalent to Demon Lords and Archdevils, Celestial Paragons are what you want. Really only in 4e did angels support all deities regardless of alignment.

#

The Celestial Hebdomad (archons), Talisid and the Five Companions (guardinals), and the Court of Stars (eladrin) are the major groups of paragons. Not to be confused with the 4e archons or eladrin, or 5e eladrin.

#

So there are 16 confirmed, named Celestial Paragons.

karmic jungle
#

Who are the most powerful gods in dnd?

#

Other than Mystra, Lady of Pain, Vecna, Bahamut.

dusky flare
#

If I had a copper for every time Mystra has died, I'd have three coppers. Which isn't a lot, but... y'know.

If I had a copper for every time Vecna has died... I could buy the universe multiple times over.
lol.

karmic jungle
karmic jungle
#

Those overgods could be great for my devious dm intentions hehe

jagged apex
#

like Ao has 0 power or influence out side of the forgotten realms setting, more specifically realmspace, so no influence in the outer planes or anything of that sort

dusky flare
#

The Master then

#

AKA: Luminous Being.

jagged apex
#

lol, yeah

dusky flare
#

I have a GM that throws gods at players like bread to ducks.

#

(This message has been deleted so that my GM doesn't see it and get any ideas.)
lol.

outer locust
dusky flare
modest badger
#

Remember to stick to official lore topics folk.

heady hare
#

Is there any reason devas are called that even though they are just angels and nothing to do with Hindu mythology?

feral lintel
#

deva means exalted being

#

Deva (Sanskrit: देव, Sanskrit pronunciation: [de:vɐ]) means 'shiny', 'exalted', 'heavenly being', 'divine being', 'anything of excellence
WHich is what angels are

fallow leaf
#

It’s mostly just name and not much else
A kind of flawed old style mindset that devas are just “Hindu angels”

#

Most mythologies usually have a conflict between two different beings and the common western one is angels vs demons, so people often just translate those into angels vs demons terms

feral lintel
#

yeah, not all celestial beings are the Christian Angels

#

hell, those ones dont even look like humans most of the time :/

heady hare
#

Biblically accurate angels are more terrifying than demons

fallow leaf
feral lintel
#

like how Gorgons are related to the medusa only in name, while being another name for the catoblepas

fallow leaf
#

But that’s not super on topic

feral lintel
#

stares in Cherubim

feral lintel
heady hare
feral lintel
#

mhmm. DnD takes a lot fo influence and names from other cultures

jagged apex
#

yeah some of the reasons they had to change some names for some creatures in dnd is because in their source material they had the same name, example being the gorgon and medusa

feral lintel
#

iirc, the Gorgon was from a local name where they used it to refer to Catoblepas?

jagged apex
#

also i would not say it is necessarily random, but definitely is a wide net

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

oh neat!

jagged apex
#

yeah on the forgotten realms wiki if a creature is based on something particular and not a dnd original they usually have that cited complete with a link to that thing if you wanna learn more about it via wikipedia

#

and even if it is based on something, they do have differences, and are not ment to be 1 to 1, a good example of this is dnd's fantastical versions of real world mythological gods such as Odin, Zeus, Bhamaut, Tiamat, ect....

feral lintel
#

i thought the interloper gods are the same ones from IRL mythos

#

Tyr just kinda chills in FR a lot

jagged apex
#

well there are differences between the two, if they were ment to be the exact same they likely could not use them out of fear of angering certain people, they are versions or adaptations of those gods for the dnd multiverse, remember earth is part of the dnd multiverse, and they are from that earth presumably if anything, not ment to be exactly like those in our own real world mythologies as the fact is there are differences

#

one example is how tyr lost his hand

#

and how bahamut and tiamat are constantly opposed to one another, far as i know in real world mythology they had no relation to one another to where they were siblings, counterparts, or what have you

karmic jungle
timid tendon
#

Loviathar in the irl mythology is barely similar to the sadomasochistic deity in forgotten realms

Rakshasa were never explicitly tiger headed (or animal headed) in the stories they were in

And harpies were their own bespoke thing (stinky servants of zeus) who had nothing to do with singing

DnD back in the day drew from other cultures and mishmashed details until they had little to do with their inspirations

Its not really that deep its just a holdover from a time when cultural sensitivity wasnt a factor to the americans who made the game

Props on the new monster manual for giving the lich a Soul Gem/Jar/whatever instead of the more iffy previous name that was Very not sensitive to the culture that has it :v

snow laurel
#

If a being is put inside a demiplane that's within an object, and then that object is brought into sigil, is that demiplane considered "in sigil"?

I ask because the players may be smuggling a cursed object with a god trapped inside it, genie-in-a-bottle style, through sigil, and I wonder if the Lady of Pain would be... displeased by it. They have no intention of opening it or unleashing the god within sigil, it's more like they're using sigil to transit contraband from one planet to another.

jagged apex
#

that is not really how demiplanes work, at least in published materials

#

all demiplanes are in the ethereal plane

#

real world mythology and religious texts =/= dnd lore, even if there are similarities

snow laurel
#

is the demiplane "in" sigil or "in" the ethereal plane

#

is a genie in a bottle in calimshan "in" calimshan or the ethereal plane?

timid tendon
jagged apex
#

ethereal plane, the object would more so be a gateway/portal to the demiplane rather than something the plane is in

jagged apex
sharp owl
# jagged apex all demiplanes are in the ethereal plane

That's not accurate. Demiplane just means a sub-plane and there are non-ethereal demiplanes such as the Domains of Dread within Ravenloft, which itself is just a cluster of demiplanes within the Shadowfell

Ravenloft Is Not a World. The lands and characters of Ravenloft don’t share a planet. Rather, the Domains of Dread consist of innumerable demiplanes hidden amid the Plane of Shadow.

karmic jungle
#

In fact I also like that they change the original beasts but give them just enough connection to the idea because it expands creative choices. If they made a copy to copy then I'd actually be more offended or insulted. The fact they use names like touchstones allows more fun choices! Just my two cents.

jagged apex
snow laurel
#

Is there anything indicating how much time passed between Planescape: Torment and Turn of Fortune's Wheel?

sharp owl
#

Nope, plus the events aren't even canonical to each other

snow laurel
vital cloudBOT
#
No pings, please :pray:

If you see someone with “No Pings” in their name, please don’t @ that user. If you Reply to them, please turn the alert @OFF, and if you forget, a simple apology is appreciated. Thank you!

jagged apex
coarse hull
#

Does the swords coast have nations or just city states

jagged apex
#

plus even if it was, as far as i am aware the multiverse was reworked at least once after vecna's attempt to take control of sigil, the lady of pain doing so that vecna could not "glitch" himself in like he originally did, or any other god for that matter, so there is honestly a couple ways you could explain why morte is there even without the two stories being canonical to one another

jagged apex
coarse hull
#

Ah ok

jagged apex
#

like the only nation i know for sure is way opposite of the sword coast, Thay

coarse hull
#

Ah

jagged apex
#

and even on the same continent any sort of nations or kingdoms i know of are technically outside of what is considered the sword coast

calm crest
#

On the Sigil topic, it’s really hard to tell how much time has passed, as it seems like some elements of the Faction War happened and others didn’t. The factions aren’t currently banished, but have been shuffled around and recombined. There are multiple nods to Duke Rowan via the random charts. 5e’s Planescape continuity is a little nebulous relative to 2e’s. At least it didn’t just obliterate every element of lore like it did with Spelljammer…

jagged apex
#

one thing that could be presumed a long time has passed as far as i am aware time in sigil and potentially even the plane it is located on, flows at a normal rate compared to the prime material plane

dusky pond
#

I'm not sure if this is more a character discussion question, but I'll ask anyways. So Adamantine Dragons are a part of the FR lore and they seem really cool. Would the idea of a human noble family with an Adamantine Dragon ancestral bloodline work, and hypothetically, if a descendant of that family were to be reborn as a Dragonborn of Bahamut but with Adamantine scales, would that work within the confines of the lore?

#

I'm sure if you were to try and make it work mechanically, it's as easy as reflavoring the Gold Dragonborn from Fizban's and taking the Blade Ward cantrip in a spellcasting class, but all I want to know is if it can work.

calm crest
#

Dragons and Dragonborn are largely unrelated in Realmspace. Dragonborn are typically antagonistic toward the tyrannical dragons. Half-dragon would be closer to what you’re looking for.

dusky pond
#

I learned that Dragonborn of Bahamut aren't born naturally but non dragonkind followers of Bahamut who were reborn through a divine ritual as Dragonborn but with unique traits. Could a human descendant (we're talking like five or more generations down) of that ancestral tree be reborn as a Dragonborn of Bahamut?

prisma siren
#

Dragonborn of Bahamut are sterile IIRC

#

But the only prerequisite to undergo the Rite of Rebirth was to be non-evil and have an Intelligence score of at least 3

dusky pond
#

Yes, but I am saying the human in question would become a Dragonborn of Bahamut.

#

Not the whole family. Lol

prisma siren
#

Oh, I misread

#

I thought you meant a descendant of a dragonborn of Bahamut

dusky pond
#

All good. Lol

prisma siren
#

The sources on the Rite of Rebirth are Races of the Dragon from 3rd edition and a very brief mention in the form of a draconic gift in Fizban's Treasury of Dragons

dusky pond
#

So, if the human went through the Rite of Rebirth, would it make sense for them to become more Adamantine Dragon-like in physical form?

#

I know the typical metallic colors are the ones we commonly know, including Platinum in some rare cases, but since this human has an ancestral lineage to an Adamantine Dragon, would it make sense for them to come out as an Adamantine Dragonborn?

prisma siren
#

I think as of the most recent lore that would be the case

dusky pond
#

Excellent. Thank you for your assistance.

prisma siren
#

Originally, all dragonborn were called to become such by Bahamut

#

4e retconned them into aliens with an uncertain origin (though Ed Greenwood has hinted the 4e-style dragonborn might be related to the Ux Bahamuti in some way), and 5e kept the uncertain origins but reintroduced the Rite of Rebirth in Fizban's

#

And the newest lore about Dragonborn of Bahamut is that they're an order of dragonborn sworn to Bahamut's service — but it doesn't specify if modern dragonborn can enter that order or if it's only composed of those who received the call of Bahamut and underwent the ritual to become dragonborn

dusky pond
#

Yeah, I heard about that 4e lore before. The Dragonborn being originally from Aebir and only coming to Toril because of the Spellplague, IIRC.

prisma siren
#

Yeah

#

SCAG gives 3 possible origins for them, but the new PHB narrows it down to two, which are that they were created by Bahamut and Tiamat or that they were created by other dragons without the gods' blessing

dusky pond
#

I personally liked the lore of how Dragonborn became more widespread on Toril was from Dragons magically changing the genetic template on dragon eggs.

prisma siren
#

It's never explicitly stated but I think both origins are probably true

#

There were separate dragonborn populations throughout the multiverse, some created by Bahamut and Tiamat, and others created by lesser dragons

dusky pond
#

So it all just boils down to Bahamut and Tiamat being the original creators, and dragons eventually learning the ritual and perverting it to make draconic servants.

prisma siren
#

Yeah, exactly

dusky pond
#

Yeah, that makes the most sense.

timid tendon
#

as in, a dragonborn from abeir can exist meet a dragonborn of bahamut in a tavern in Illusk or something

#

(ok maybe not Illusk thats like super far from anywhere either kind of dragonborn would usually go to xD)

jagged apex
worn blade
#

Looking at ghouls (MM2024, p132)
Why are elves not subjected to the paralyzing effect of their claw attacks?

ionic rivet
#

You're asking for a lore reason?

worn blade
#

Yes

calm crest
#

Elves are immortal and have no fear of death; this fear is what causes the paralysis in the earliest days of D&D.

#

Later editions had more complicated mythologies surrounding it.

ionic rivet
#

Interesting - so an homage to early D&D.

calm crest
#

It’s been mechanically in place since Chainmail, technically. OD&D and onwards followed suit, but that was the original explanation at least.

obsidian gate
#

[...]Doresain, the first of their kind, was an elf worshiper of Orcus. [...] When Orcus would not intervene on his behalf, Doresain turned to the elf gods for salvation, and they took pity on him and helped him escape certain destruction. Since then, elves have been immune to the ghouls’ paralytic touch.

#

thats the lore from 2014

jagged apex
#

and looking at the 2024 lore, none of it contradicts that, so it very easily can be taken as lore added in addition to what was in 2014

sage prawn
#

Are there any good novels or source books from any edition that explore some history of the Archfey, or other prominent fey creatures?

Reading on the Forgotten Realms wiki is giving me lots of teases on certain things like this. I've read some on some sort of war between Titania and Queen of Air and Darkness(which I thought they never actually warned so idk)

One source I've seen is "Monster Mythology" from 2nd edition.

fallow pelican
#

Looking for more sources on Evermeet. Read the wiki, want to know what books to read to go more indept (any edition)

reef cape
fallow pelican
#

I was looking a bit more facts on a page, but I will for sure read this

old rock
#

I was researching about the three swords Blackrazor, wave, and whelm but I can’t find the stats for wave and whelm could someone help.

jagged apex
#

stats are not really a lore thing

old rock
ornate crystal
polar summit
#

Hey, I got a question about astronomers in Dnd, do they just study the stars or do they also study the various planes of exsistence, do the stars in Dnd have any significance or are they just pinprick in the curtan of night? effectivly, what do astronomers realy do/study in the forgotten realms or any of the realms of Dnd?

fallow leaf
#

astronomers are definitely a thing in FR. There's also astrology, but the written stuff about it is kinda light

polar summit
#

what does studying astrology in FR get you?

#

I mean, I get the study of astronemers in real life, but do they even have stars in Dnd?

polar summit
ionic rivet
#

I believe most official D&D settings there are stars and moons - but everything is very setting-dependent so you'd need to specify what setting to get a more detailed answer.

fallow leaf
#

forgottem realms at least, astrology is one of the methods of divination

polar summit
#

so, studying the stars would lead to also a study of divination and from there, a study of prophecy? would you consider that correct?

unkempt merlin
#

those studying the draconic prophecy in eberron often do so via astronomy

pallid flower
#

Moons also represent planar alignment, so it has other applications too

jagged apex
worn patio
#

This is embarrassing to ask because it's probably such a silly question but I never learned the difference 😅 what's the difference between faerun and the sword coast? Is faerun like the whole universe while sword coast is like the earth?

Or put in simple terms, is faerun the milky way and the sword coast is the earth?

crude blaze
#

Faerun is the world ("Earth"), the Sword Coast is just a region

feral lintel
#

Faerun is the planet, sword coast is a small part of the continent its in

sterile breach
#

More accurately, Toril is the planet (Earth), Faerun is the continent (North America), and the Sword Coast is a region (Central America).

jagged apex
crude blaze
#

Yes, that was intended to be a comparison, not literal. And even then I got it wrong, since Faerun is the continent, not the planet.

jagged apex
#

faerun is more comparable to earth's europe and some surrounding areas

fallow pelican
#

I think they were giving modern examples, not comparisons.

worn patio
jagged apex
#

if you look to the bottom, you can also see the other planets in realmspace

#

in dnd instead of galaxies, we have wildspace systems, which is often a core part of the setting's name followed by space, hence why forgotten realms is called realmspace, and in past editions we had crystal spheres

#

also don't feel too bad, from my understanding not knowing faerun is just a specific continent on toril in the forgotten realms setting is a fairly common misconception to those who are newer to the lore

coarse hull
#

Are there eras in the FR lore

jagged apex
#

the most recent one is known as the present age

#

which is "the time period that started in the year 1000 DR and continued to the late 15th century DR." as the wiki puts it

tired granite
#

Silly question, is there a god in the setting who does / would take an interest in sci fi / futuristic technology? As in, who would push their followers to develop beyond the core medieval fantasy?

#

Like, a god of spelljamming, guns, and technomagic

crude blaze
#

In the Forgotten Realms, one could make an argument for Gond, the god of invention

coarse hull
#

How did the Devil/Demon Wars start?

feral lintel
#

they just did

coarse hull
#

:/

severe basin
#

You know how sometimes you just hate someone

#

And you know how when you're evil killing your enemies is a good way to deal with people you hate

feral lintel
severe basin
#

Cause: unknown
The real cause is just that demons and devils by nature can never co exist or get along

feral lintel
#

The cause of the Blood War was unknown, but most believed it to be a remnant of the great war of Law against Chaos waged by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa against the forces of the Queen of Chaos.[7] The yugoloths liked to entertain the notion that the War was their own personal experiment into the nature of evil, one which they created and would ultimately end on their own terms.[12]

Some philosophers speculated that the Sigil's Lady of Pain had something to do with the Blood War, but what connection she actually had was not clear.[13]

Yet another theory involved the origin-myth of Asmodeus, in which he was an angel who traveled into the heart of the Abyss and plucked a single shard from the "seed of evil."[14][15] It was said that Asmodeus foresaw his own victory in the conflict―a definitive triumph of law over chaos―and believed that he would subsequently unite all the planes of law under his singular rule.[16]

Some sages posited that the Blood War was a simple offshoot of the primordial wars between law and chaos.[16] The lawful good-aligned celestial archons and chaotic good-aligned eladrin only marginally participated in the conflict, mostly ensuring that the battle remained confined to the lower planes.[17] The demons and devils (in keeping with their sadistic and violent natures) simply would not cease their fight, even after the rest of the multiverse had grown more tolerant.

jagged apex
#

the level of tech varies from setting to setting, and the forgotten realms is more so akin to the renascence than medieval, plus dnd has kind of always been a mixture of sci-fi and fantasy, just the fantasy part has overshadowed the rest in recent years, though is an old video, i feel the lore youtuber AJ Pickett, describes and points this sort of thing out rather well in this video of his from a while back https://youtu.be/KmNF3gEb7As?si=BQmt0k-bFXaO8YR0

jagged apex
#

but again, "tech" in the context in dnd is not strictly what you think of it in our own world, magical items are technically a form of technology in dnd

sage prawn
#

I'm trying to find information on the realm known as Ladinion. I've been reading up on the history of the fey and Sylvan deities. Apparently the realm known as Ladinion was where the Sylvan deities like Titania and the Queen of Air and Darkness lived before it was ravaged by a volcano killing tons of fey and forcing them to flee. There is also mention of the Lake Cwm Glas which is apparently important in that realm.

Thats all I can find on it on the wiki and in Monster Mythology for second edition.

Just wondering if it has any significance at all. Or even any base in real world folklore.

old rock
#

Including and not including lore standards which would you say is the most powerful out of these three weapons the wave the whelm and the blackrazor.

calm crest
#

Blackrazor by a fair margin. It’s explicitly a Stormbringer knockoff.

jagged apex
#

plus blackrazor literally consumes souls

feral lintel
#

Blackrazor yeah. Whelm is also strong, but the peeps in #optimization can tell you why if you want mechanics

feral lintel
#

Are there any deities in Greyhawk that have a Hunter or Survival Portfolio?

slow rune
thick sentinel
# feral lintel Are there any deities in Greyhawk that have a Hunter or Survival Portfolio?

There's also Fharlanghn, Kelanen, Heward, Sustarre, Bucknard, Solonor Thelandira, and Quaal which fit some of that. When I think of survival+hunting, Obad-hai does come to mind first, but Kelanen and Solonor Thelandira are close and Quaal is almost-exactly what you might want especially because of his tie to the Flan Old Faith and representing the skills of the ranger in both hunting and survival in all of the regions of the Flanaess

static smelt
#

Did Nentir Vale's world have a name?

grim siren
#

Nerath

old rock
#

My Dm is letting me use some power of the dwarven sea god Nuverl but I don’t know any of them could you guys help me?

jagged apex
old rock
jagged apex
#

far as i know, there are no dwarven gods of the sea in published dnd materials from wizards of the coast or prior to them, tsr

#

if there are any, i am unaware of them

#

and when searching the name of the one you listed, it what i found seems to be a fan made thing, ie homebrew

#

so is probably a better question for your dm than for anyone here

old rock
calm crest
#

Aquatic dwarves expressly have priests in 2e, but neither Port of Ravens Bluff nor Demihuman Deities makes any indication of whom.

eager bay
#

is there beef between the elf god(s) and orc god(s) (idk if there is one or more for either i dont know much about the lore sorry)

jagged apex
#

yes, but most of it is between gruumsh and the elven gods, most notably corellon

calm crest
#

Both pantheons consist of multiple individuals.

#

Gruumsh lost his eye to Corellon.

jagged apex
#

far as i know the others of the orc pantheon don't really have any notable opinions or views on the elven gods, but gruumsh dislikes if not hates all of them, corellon most notably

#

at the very least we know that in the realms gruumsh hates all the elven gods, for one reason or another, and still consists lolth among them as far as he is concerned, like he hates her too

jagged apex
#

far as i know only they and the dwarven patheon have special names, and the dark seldarine if you wanna count them as seperate, have special names, otherwise they tend to just be known as the pantheon for their respective species/race

jagged apex
#

supposidly at least according to the orcs, he either always had one eye or gouged it out at birth "either to enhance his senses or as a sign of fealty to chaos" as the wiki puts it

eager bay
#

What creature type would fit an eldritch entity commonly regarded as a brutal hunter?

calm crest
#

That’s not really enough information to go on. There are examples of brutal hunters in every creature type. Creature type is also more of a mechanical abstraction.

eager bay
calm crest
#

The creature’s origin is largely the justification for its creature type.

eager bay
calm crest
#

Kinda depends on the plane. If it’s from the lower planes, it’s a Fiend. If it’s from the upper planes, it’s a Celestial. If it’s from the elemental planes, it’s an Elemental. If it is connected to the Far Realm, it is an Aberration.

jagged apex
#

is also an Aberration if it is otherwise alien compared to other life, unless i am mistaken

storm dagger
#

yeah Slaadi are also aberrants

jagged apex
#

pretty fitting for beings that are basically just pure chaos in their most natural form

#

least is the vibe i get from them being one of the few technically native to limbo, plus both kinds of gith in some cases have also become aberrations too if i am not mistaken

calm crest
#

Yes, Slaadi and Modrons break the neat pattern of 5e outsider classification.

#

I still think that Rilmani should’ve been Elementals rather than Celestials if Slaadi are Aberrations and Modrons are Constructs.

timid tendon
#

I actually do like that the Rilmani are Celestials

A skewed lean towards the "balance" and whatnot

jagged apex
#

yeah elementals does not really make much sense especially for the 5e incarnation, so celestial makes enough sense

#

if they were not celestial given their nature i'd expect them to be more like the modrons and wind up falling under constructs given their more mechanical appearances

teal fox
#

Do false hydras rewrite reality? I’m making a spinoff monster that’s far more fun to hunt but I want to know the extent of the original monster first. I already know what a false hydra is, but by reality I mean does it erase mentions of a person in texts or depictions of them?

#

Or is it only memory altering

sharp owl
calm crest
vital cloudBOT
#
No pings, please :pray:

If you see someone with “No Pings” in their name, please don’t @ that user. If you Reply to them, please turn the alert @OFF, and if you forget, a simple apology is appreciated. Thank you!

outer locust
#

is there an in lore reason for how or why only elves can do revererie and meditate instead of sleeping?
or could theoretically any race learn reverie if they wanted?

crude blaze
#

It’s just a part of their magical nature

obsidian gate
#

Elves do have this whole thing going on where their souls keep being reincarnated

fallow leaf
#

and their cycle of reincarnation

jagged apex
outer locust
jagged apex
jagged apex
# outer locust mechanicus?

no, i mean constructs do to a neutral and rather lawful nature, keeping order or in this case balance, plus the metal like bodies, to quote their general description from 5e planescape "Rilmani protect the balance between the forces and philosophies of the multiverse. They seek to maintain planar equilibrium, assuring that good, evil, law, or chaos never grow too powerful or too weak. To the rilmani, each of these forces is fundamental to the multiverse’s existence. Whenever one threatens to tip the balance in its favor or a plane is on the verge of collapse, the rilmani act to even the odds.

While the rilmani might be found anywhere, they’re most frequently encountered on their home plane, the Outlands, where they work to ensure that no force overexerts itself on the Concordant Opposition.

Rilmani are bipedal, with bodies of living metal that ranges in appearance from cold iron to brilliant gold. Most have smooth faces with few features, and their extraordinary anatomies often act in defiance of natural forces." end quote

#

will admit, i don't get how they decided on the classification of celestial, but is far from the least fitting in my opinion

jagged apex
calm crest
#

Athasian elves are also quite different.

hazy flower
#

are there any lore poets in dnd?

jagged apex
hazy flower
#

aaaand thanks!

snow laurel
#

hey me with another weird question: Is there any lore from any edition that has dragonborn hatching out of dragon eggs, maybe if a ritual is used on said eggs? The closest I can think are the draconians of krynn... in the 2014 PHB they were said to be dragonborn but I believe later stuff clarified that no, they werent and krynn doesn't have native dragonborn

crude blaze
#

Correct, Krynn doesn’t have any dragonborn. The closest things to dragonborn would be the draconians, but they’re very much they’re own thing. I’d argue they’d be more closely related to half-dragons than dragonborn.

snow laurel
#

yeah I was hoping like there may be some obscure mystara or nentir vale lore I can use

#

I know the dray of athas are mutated humanoids, as are the dragonborn of oerth

jagged apex
#

at best there are in universe theories, most notably in the forgotten realms setting

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

Dragonborn born were introduced in 3e book which uses Greyhawk as the default

#

In that book they were followers of Bahamut who were transformed into a more dragon like form

#

Dragonborn are also mentioned in DMG Greyhawk stuff but they don’t really need an origin

jagged apex
#

ah, the dragonborn of bahamut incarnation rather than the proper species that can reproduce, is it still those or for the 5e incarnation dnd they swap them?

jagged apex
tired edge
#

Are the outer planes such as the abyss and the hells meant to be a multiversal constant? It seems like in a lot of settings, demon lords such as Orcus and archdevils like Zariel are considered to exist simultaneously across different official realities

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

each setting is not a different reality in published materials

storm dagger
coarse heath
#

a player of mine asked me in my last game, is Tiamat on the first or 2nd level of hell? something about zariel on the first or a tyranny of dragons thing? no idea what she's talking about lol, but basically tiamat is my bbeg, and my player was curious about the current predicament of tiamat

sharp owl
#

Tiamat is imprisoned in Avernus, the first layer of the Nine Hells of Bator and battleground of the Blood War. The archdevil of that level is Zariel, formerly Bel

coarse heath
#

ahh tyty!

nocturne summit
#

If I can remember, after Tiamat swooned Asmodeus, the prince of hell gave her the keys to the first layer. Tiamat's loyalty to Asmodeus is but a ruse to her real plan of getting out and Asmodeus saw it but chooses to play by her rules so the dragon queen did not suspect it. Then when Zariel came, Asmodeus also gave her the keys to the first layer with the task to keep an eye on Tiamat, making the first layer having 2 rulers. Zariel hates the idea and Tiamat does not care if Zariel wants to take monopoly of the rule as long as the fallen angel does not become an obstacle to her plans. I heard somewhere that Zariel also orchestrated Tiamat's breach into the material realm.

sharp owl
#

I don't recall any of that and it directly contradicts the most recent lore we have that says Zariel was given control of Avernus by Asmodeus after her fall, surplanting the previous ruler Bel

nocturne summit
#

I forgot Bel. The sequence of events of the ruler's timeline is a weird off shot. One said that Asmo put Tiamat as ruler since Bel sucks at his job, then puts Zariel as ruler coz Tiamat sucks as a ruler as well. Another is that Asmo puts Bel in charge of becoming a warden for Tiamat but Bel can't do the job right so Asmo fired Bel once Zariel came and let Tiamat do her own thing.
Bel > Tiamat > Zariel.
Tiamat > Bel > Tiamat / Zariel.

serene crater
#

asides from star lancers and dragons, are there any other known creatures in spelljammer that serve as mounts?

obsidian gate
#

giant space hamsters

serene crater
#

i see

trim raptor
#

I'm having a hard time placing Cthulhu in the DND lore. Specifically, is Cthulhu a god or something else? Are they a form The Great Old One takes?

rustic sand
#

Cthulhu in the original Lovecraft story was essentially a servant to a more powerful eldritch god. If anything he’s a demigod. Bro apparently got killed by a steamboat 💀💀💀

trim raptor
#

Would a buffed up Aboleth kind of be equivalent as far as a monster stat block goes?

feral lintel
#

(this channel isnt for mechanics btw)

trim raptor
#

The question is about lore...

rustic sand
#

Cthulhu isn’t in official dnd lore. At least not to my knowledge

trim raptor
#

Which is why I'm trying to draw some lines from things that are. But this has been helpful.

feral lintel
trim raptor
#

Ok, then let me rephrase the question since you're being pedantic about it. Would an Aboleth be equivalent (or closest to) in DND lore to Cthulhu?

rustic sand
#

I guess kinda

trim raptor
obsidian gate
#

I would disagree. Aboleths are individually nowhere near cthulu

#

also, Cthulu is mentioned as possible patron for Great Old one Warlock in the books

trim raptor
obsidian gate
#

if you have to compare it to such creatures

#

a single aboleth can be killed easy enough by a group of mid tier adventurers. Cthulu is a wold ending threat

trim raptor
#

Great article btw.

#

Right, a standard Aboleth would never reach the power level of Cthulhu.

jagged apex
#

cuz historically Cthulu exists in dnd

#

he even was stated out in older editions if i am not mistaken, like 1e or 2e, forget which

jagged apex
trim raptor
#

My conclusion thus far is that Cthulhu is mentioned but there exists no official lore. Perhaps due to earlier copyright claims.

sharp owl
#

There's no lore for Cthulhu, it's not part of any canon of D&D. It exists purely as a stat block that references Lovecraft's work, not anything within the D&D universe

#

It's from the segment of D&D where other IPs would be thrown in ad hoc

jagged apex
# trim raptor Then what is the DND lore regarding Cthulhu? My research and conversations have ...

is sparingly mentioned mentioned, but in older editions got a proper entry with other what we would call Lovecraftian entities as part of a pantheon but in 3e there is an aboleth deity that is considered a sort of rough equivalent in 3.5e's "lords of madness" source book, as i recall the one associated with Cthulu is Pisaethces the blood queen https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Pisaethces , so if not cthulu proper, supposidly Piasaethces is a form they take in the forgotten realms setting

obsidian gate
jagged apex
#

that same book also has a section in where it talks about aboleths as they relate to Cthulu

#

so that sourcebook could help even if indirectly

sharp owl
#

Yes, I'm aware. That's what I'm referencing when I say "that references Lovecraft's work, not anything within the D&D universe"

obsidian gate
#

i think the implication is that lovecraft's "pantheon" is considered part if the D&D multiverse?

sharp owl
#

It quotes the whole Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagh'nagl fhtagn deal and everything

#

I'm talking about lore, not the mere presence of an entity named Cthulhu

#

Sorry for not being clear

jagged apex
#

beyond 2e or 1e, which ever, cthulhu is more mentioned than given formal lore, thus all we can gather is dnd has a version of an entity named Cthulhu, but anything else is unclear or just speculation

sharp owl
#

Yep, that's what I mean by "no lore"
It's why I didn't say anything like "Cthulhu isn't in D&D"

jagged apex
#

so he sort of is in dnd lore, but does not nessissarily have lore of it's own

sharp owl
#

The question was what is his lore

#

Which is "none"

jagged apex
#

and given the alien nature of cthulhu and other powerful aberrations, is arguably fitting they don't have any formal lore beyond what one might be able to gather from the occasional mention

sharp owl
#

Something being in the lore and having lore are two different topics

jagged apex
#

true, but they so often go hand in hand, can be easy to forget there are cases where one does not mean the existance of the other

sharp owl
#

I'm leaving this discussion...

eager bay
#

In D&D, are monstrosities closer related to demons or dragons?

feral lintel
#

Monstrosities is the catch all category for any monster that doesnt fit in another creature type

#

so it really depends on the specific monstrosity

eager bay
feral lintel
#

At best, you have Orcus, prince of undeath

#

The creature types are merely categories, they dont really have much connection with one another

#

its not like the classifications of animals like canine, cat, lizard, or etc

eager bay
#

I think I'll do dragons/monstrosities for the greedy and fey/fiends for the Zealot. Thanks for the help.

trim raptor
#

Just a quick thank you to all who contributed to the Cthulhu discussion earlier. It's helped clarify things immensely. So cheers! dndCheers dndLove

eager bay
#

But that's cause I didn't want to read it all, so if someone already did, sorry for repeating what someone said lol. Just wanted to make sure someone told you or already knew

trim raptor
eager bay
sand solstice
#

Is there a dnd setting that is all one giant city? Like a city that spans an entire planet

#

Im looking for inspiration from other adventures on how this could work

crude blaze
feral lintel
#

MtG planes like Ravnica, are a bit small though on average usually spanning the equivalent of a continent

crude blaze
#

Yeah there isn’t a whole lot thats mapped out, but it is described as a “worldwide cityscape”

sharp owl
#

MtG planes such as Ravnica and Theros vary a lot in size, anything from "finite and the size of a couple of continents" in the case of Theros to "theoretically infinite, no one has found an edge if there is one" in the case of Ravnica

#

Arcavios, the plane Strixhaven is set upon, is probably more world like from what little has been described, although it was created in an odd situation of two planes merging (I say odd, planar merging has happened at least twice before)

verbal cosmos
#

What are people's favorite books for lore?

calm crest
static trench
#

"The Elemental Planes are often inhospitable to natives of the Material Plane: crushing earth, searing flames, boundless skies, and endless seas make visiting these places dangerous for even a short time. The powerful genies, however, don’t face such troubles when venturing into the mortal world. They adapt well to the mingled elements of the Material Plane, and they sometimes visit—whether of their own volition or compelled by magic. Some genies can adopt mortal guise and travel incognito."
-EEPC
Can genies kinda just pick a location in the Material Plane and go?

calm crest
#

Most have an innate way to plane shift, so they can visit more or less any general location that they intend to go.

storm dagger
storm dagger
sharp owl
jagged apex
#

last i checked it is

#

though the scale of it is probably comparable to a small planetoid, not entirely though, but is plenty massive

storm dagger
#

I think the last official dimensions for it was 8 km diameter and 32 km circumference

versed hare
thorny hollow
#

Hey all,

I am looking for a book, standalone or a series perhaps that follows a person or group of religious individuals.

Is there something like that?

Perhaps a Paladin on a quest, a Cleric trying to find a relationship with their God/s, or some pilgrims going to their holy site?

storm dagger
#

Cleric Quintet maybe

versed hare
#

Cleric quintet Is super good

silent atlas
#

When was the last time a god derectly interfered with toril

storm dagger
#

Rime of the Frostmaiden

#

Though it’s more that Auril did the same thing as the Dead Three and limited herself to stay on Toril.

timid tendon
#

Horde of the Dragon Queen/Rise of Tiamat technically
albeit the goal there was to Stop her from interfering with Toril directly

vestal creek
#

Is a bards magic arcane or celestial?

feral lintel
#

Arcane

calm crest
#

Technically depends on edition. They were originally druidic.

jagged apex
#

far as i can tell, at least according to what is documented on the forgotten realms wiki, from 3e onward the bard's magic/source of power is consistently classified as arcane, so i am not sure where thanazrael is getting druidic from, but the 3 broad sort of kinds of casters are Arcane, Divine, and Primal, at least historically from what i am both aware and can find

dusky pond
#

I've tried doing some research on relationships with unique races in the Forgotten Realms, and it has dawned on me that there's nothing that mentions a relationship between Goliaths and Dragonborn. What would an alliance between the two species be like? What sort of conflicts and/or enemies would come from said alliance? Thoughts?

feral lintel
#

Goliaths were friendly to anyone who didn't threaten their tribe, but wouldn't wait around for travelers who couldn't keep up with them.
most likely just chill

#

This channel is for official published lore

dusky pond
#

Ah gotcha

calm crest
jagged apex
twilit crane
#

Would a drider likely be able to be in charge of a bandit gang of drow being led by a woman, or would the drider be like second in command? (trying to do some campaign prep work and just want to make it believable for a player who's more versed in the lore than I am lol)

feral lintel
#

Most likely the former, assuming theyre all outcasts from drow society

twilit crane
#

Gotcha, thank you!

storm dagger
#

It honestly just depends on who is the most powerful.

thick sentinel
# calm crest From 2e onwards, bards are arcane in nature, but in OD&D and 1e, they must seek ...

Ancient druids were part of a Celtic priestly class that existed around 2k years ago. They were divided into three classes: priests, philosophers, and poets. The poetic division of the druidical hierarchy is believed to be the origin of the bardic tradition

Britannia Insular Celt Druid orders led to some figures in Wales during the 12th century taking on druidic personages. Welsh court bards such as Cynddelw began portraying themselves as "derwyddon" or druids. Talked to a D&D player the other day who met an actual Archdruid in Britain some 3 decades ago, at a set of standing stones (not Stonehenge, smaller-scale)

B. Dennis Sustare (credited as the inventor and Great Druid of OD&D in the Eldritch Wizardry Supplement) added the Druid class to the game, but his interpretation is close to these above notions. Gygax also added some other flavor, such as the famous addition of the scimitar in AD&D 1e as a Druid weapon-of preference. Gygax's reasons brought him out of Europe and into North Africa, to lever the Berber folk as a more pastoral version of the druid, and as opposed to the Dervish in the original Monster Manual, who graduated to high-priest cleracies. I do not believe Gygax would ultimately ever untie or fully-describe these interactions or how it settled in the TSR product lines

jagged apex
#

like there is no reason if there is one more suited to lead that they are not nessissarily the most powerful, drow society is more than just the one perpetuated by lolth

storm dagger
#

Well Driders are normally lolth influnced and jerks.

jagged apex
#

key word normally

#

even in the lore there are exceptions to the norms for most if not all creatures at least outside of those in the outer planes, even if rare

#

plus depending on the edition as i recall determines whether being a drider is a blessing or a punishment

#

and that is all just assuming in terms of setting you are reffering to the forgotten realms

#

and in the setting agnostic new monster manual there is an array of different ways one can become a drider, it providing at least 6 suggestions including the punishment one and blessing one

#

and even then it is not only lolth in the case of the one she is mentioned, she is used as a mere example along side the queen of air and darkness, so i feel is fair to think about the bandits, it's structure, the setting, ect..., lot of factors that can change things

fervent ridge
#

Has there ever been a wizard who has lived hundreds of years via the clone spell? If not I have an idea for a seemingly immortal wizard who has been living for centuries after the invented the clone spell, they have at least 10 clones of himself at any given time to ensure that if he does die he will immediately be resurrected in one of them, I'd imagine he'd be an npc the party would hear about, assume is a lich, try to kill him, upon realizing he's not actually become friends with him, and he would give them a series of helpful side quests

calm crest
#

Yes, plenty have elongated their lives via Clone.

jagged apex
#

far as i know any who has attempted to do so indefinitely is maybe Manshoon, back when the clone spell could be done to where you could have more than one clone at a time, though the forgotten realms wiki describes this more so as resurrection via said clones https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Manshoon

jagged apex
#

like to my knowledge liches always look, unless concealed via magical means or the like, as clearly undead

dusky pond
#

So what's the full lore with Tortles? Are they strictly a Chult race? Have there been more instances of Tortles outside of Chult in the Forgotten Realms?

jagged apex
#

they are native to chult, but like any other sentient race they can choose to live where ever they wish, provided they put in the effort of course

#

the main one that is noted as being significant and of note to exist in the forgotten realms setting, at least technically, outside of chult or any associated location, is the individual known as Krull https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Krull

#

plus even in the published materials no race is "strictly" to one location really unless that location is technically a setting unto itself that is technically these days part of the forgotten realms, one example is some of the various creature in kara-tur, mainly do to the nature of that place even in universe

dusky pond
#

Kara-Tur is also a place I wish I knew more about. Because it's on Toril, and I heard their dragons are very Chinese mythology inspired.

jagged apex
#

plus remember, norms are just that norms, with most things in dnd exceptions to the norm can and do very much exist

jagged apex
#

just keep in mind, do to the time these things were created and introduced the cultural sensitivity is not as kind as it would be today, thus a lot of things are rooted more in stereotypes and is presumably why they have so far been hesitant to revisit them in published materials beyond the occational mention to remind us it still exists in the current continuity

#

kara-tur is also one of those locations that originally was it's own setting and kind of retroactively incorperated into the realms and more specifically toril if i am not mistaken

dusky pond
#

I'd love to see more, but I totally get the cultural insensitivity. Hopefully there's a way to have Kara-Tur to be focused on again without any stereotypes.

jagged apex
calm crest
#

Curious if we’ll get a revised Al-Qadim, then.

jagged apex
#

only time will tell

thick sentinel
#

In Greyhawk, there was a sinnekin model going on betwix cultures, including in-world and real-world historical parallels. One Greyhawk Polity would be a mirror, or sinnekin clone, of the other (sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes both more-neutral with all of the Greyhawk variations on cultures and subcultures)

The Baklunish are all-encompassing (North Africa and all lands east and north-east thereof), and the Flan include much of the Carpatho-Rusyn parallels. It makes a ton of sense to have a Shaolin style art, Shaolin style weapons, and other culturally-appreciative characteristics, but handled by a Turkish-type, Bedoin-type, Scottish-type, Berber-type, Persian-varietal, Mongol-inspired, Ottoman-like, or even Cossack-like Monks class PCs and NPCs. This way, you have everything core to the in-setting class characteristics done in an culturally appreciative manner (stick to Shaolin, but be inclusive to which regions or in-setting cultures mire it in all)

jagged apex
thick sentinel
#

Wow that's a good q. Isn't there a Calimshan 2024D&D resource coming late this year?

jagged apex
#

yeah, i pointed out is one of the sourcebooks and adventures following the new 2024 core books that are in the pipeline

#

it and others were in the dnd beyond article for the dnd direct recap, so we also know that currently books for The Dalelands and Moonshae Isles are planned

thick sentinel
#

Al-Qadim is 1992 and on, while most of the others' product lines were already finished by then

calm crest
jagged apex
#

forget if it is this year or next year, i just recall it is one of the books we know are being worked on and will be among the first wave, excluding 3rd party books, following the 2024 core books

thick sentinel
#

The land of Calimshan became somewhat redundant with the release of Al-Qadim Arabian Adventures (1992), another Arabic-influenced Realm. This caused some revamps to Calimshan when it was next revisited.

jagged apex
#

so we know that we will be revisiting Calimshan, the Dalelands, and the Moonshae Isles and seeing what they are like closer to the present time for the 5e continuity

thick sentinel
#

the best would be leaving Sembia only to the DM's imagination, forever, like Greenwood promised back in the OD&D days

jagged apex
#

as most non-3rd party materials for 5e unless i am mistaken are from prior editions and otherwise are a bit dated in comparison to the more focused swoard coast as an example, in regards to those 3 earlier mentioned locations

thick sentinel
#

That said, BMG has done some amazing things in the last decade with Moonshae

#

maybe hard to reconcile, but likely worth it!

jagged apex
#

no idea who that is

thick sentinel
#

Baldman Games

jagged apex
#

not really published lore, that technically would be a seperate continuity until referenced in official materials

#

remember this channel is mainly in regards to the official lore in published materials from wizards of the coast

thick sentinel
#

yeah I mean maybe it's just "push the timeline up 50 years" and have elves older or far off in wars

#

I think BMG has the WotC contract for LoG

jagged apex
#

not really the place for theorizing

#

so i think we should try to get back on topic

thick sentinel
#

You said Moonshae, I happily connect some dots ;> Please carry on where you think best we left off

cloud notch
#

Hi
can anyone explain to me why in Forgotten Realms Essembra has been left as a ghost town for more then 70 years despite being almost on one of the more important trade routes in Faerun?

sharp owl
#

Because sometimes places become ghost towns and never recover

reef cape
cloud notch
#

alright thanks

still widget
#

I'm joining a game that is homebrewed as post stormwreck isle. I wanna play a lore bard who's study was dragons so he slips right in. Where would I study dragons on the sword coast? Where has the best university / college in the lore?

sharp owl
#

I believe Neverwinter has a college where one might study, there's also Candlekeep too

obsidian gate
#

waterdeep has one for sure

grim siren
#

Details surrounding the end of the War can be found in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide and the Novel, The Herald by Ed Greenwood

thick sentinel
#

and you're right, the Thousandheads Trading Coster has a path right through it!

quartz laurel
#

I've scrolled through the forgotten realms wiki for a number of days now, are most of the drow deities that arent Lolth still relevant to current lore? Would it be at all common for non-Lolth devout drow to pray to or at least know about the other deities of The Dark Seldarine?

#

or is that campaign specific and I can decide

obsidian gate
#

I think everyone in the dark sedarine is alinged with Lolth and is worshipped by Lolthite drow, except Elistraee

quartz laurel
obsidian gate
#

and Elistraee is pretty big and gaining followers

quartz laurel
#

so would drow know all of them typically like you would with greek gods?

#

or is Lolth the one and only

obsidian gate
#

I think lolthite drow would know of all of them except Elistraee, who is forbidden knowlege

quartz laurel
#

even Vhaeraun?

obsidian gate
#

welll apprently he made a face turn recently? not that up to date apparently

quartz laurel
#

would he be similar to Elistraee

#

i am just going off the wiki since i dont have access to the books yet/know where to begin tbh

#

do you think it would be possible for a library in the underdark to have anything about surface world deities?

thick sentinel
quartz laurel
#

okay

#

more stuff to read

quartz laurel
#

im new to this

thick sentinel
obsidian gate
quartz laurel
#

aye, its hard for me to tell. I'm just trying to think of how my drow character would feel/ what they might know if it ever comes up

#

gotta basically learn about a whole society and their religions and traditions noted

obsidian gate
#

I think drow might be able to learn about deities that arent a direct threat to lolth

thick sentinel
#

We had a lot of fun with DDEX33 Occupation Szith Morcane

#

also demons

quartz laurel
#

thats cool

#

is this like an official campaign?

thick sentinel
#

Yeah it was Adventurers' League official WotC. Unsure how Hasbro views it now

quartz laurel
#

damn, nice

#

they probably dont like it since anything drow related is racist or sexist

thick sentinel
#

I do not speak for the powers-that be! ;>

quartz laurel
#

i'll consider playing/reading it noted

thick sentinel
#

Yeah, I will happily move to the recommended language if it means publishing something but I hope that someone else can guide that directive well. I'll learn it, but it seems a lot to learn sometimes

#

Exactly ;>

quartz laurel
#

need to learn more

#

MumeiDizzy so much to learn

#

i'm trying to focus on drow lore, i'm probably going to implode if i look at anything else at the same time

thick sentinel
#

What's another area to explore? There is always more to explore and that's what I love about the game

quartz laurel
#

which begs the next question, if you werent nobility, would you still be educated?

#

like a commoner as the wiki says

#

outside of magic schooling

thick sentinel
#

Great question.
Gygaxian Naturalism would say something Amazingly Legendary about this, and I think this is borrowed by Appendix N, especially JRRT

That education is everywhere in some fantastic societies, especially during the Mali Empire in Timbuktu, for example, which is a lost land -- and famous for its riches and learned persons, such as multi-religious and multi-lingual monk folk of both the empire, its borders, and its reaches

The peoples of the time were very flexible in how and where they spent their time. Sometimes the weather or season would take people across the deserts into modern Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, and Egypt -- sometimes even to Mecca and the entirety of that path. There were Christian ambassadors from Ethiopia who travelled to Europe many times over, and intermingled with these nomadic and pastoral folk

Some were even great emperors, state leaders, sages, mentors, gurus, barterers, priests, monks, craftspersons, linguists, and warriors of all kinds -- and oft a blend of all of these. These were educated people of the 13th to 15th centuries, in an Early Renaissance of their own right

I like the idea of magic schooling, and there are also usually 1-2 small and 1-2 big colleges of any type in any Polity (or area with 2-3 large City-States and hundreds of towns plus more). In a lot of D&D world settings, Ranger schools are also very dominant; I have also heard of trade schools (and wonder if they are Hanseatic League like?)

jagged apex
#

they may not be referenced nearly as much, but they are by no means irrelevant

thick sentinel
#

Persia, too, in the era of Sinbad the Sailor vis-a vis Arabian Nights... those were very-learned peoples, very scientific, and the rest
Monks of Europe would sometimes excel to that level -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiot_of_Provins -- here is one who first discussed the magnetic compass. And he's funny

quartz laurel
jagged apex
#

literally unless something new contradicts what is previously establish, things of the past remain valid in lore, and far as i am aware none of the dark seldarine have died, meaning none of them are irrelevant

quartz laurel
#

oki dokes 🙏

light cradle
#

Any good resources for monster ecology?

calm crest
#

Dragon magazine used to have a monster ecology section.

thorny widget
light cradle
digital nimbus
#

What happens if an angel is killed? If a demon or devil is killed outside its home plane, it respawns, but what about angels?

feral lintel
digital nimbus
feral lintel
#

Same thing as Fiends on their home turf. Kaput

calm crest
#

Their essence is reabsorbed into the plane itself and they cease to exist as an individual.

feral lintel
#

Hmmm. I wonder how Planar Incarnates mix into that

light cradle
#

I wonder what happens when they Die halfway through a portal? Though I don't think that can happen RAW

feral lintel
#

I dont think thats something covered by either the rules or lore

light cradle
#

Whats a planer incarnate again?

feral lintel
#

I dont have the book on me right now, but its a large entity that is basically the upper or lower planes made into a creature

storm dagger
jagged apex
# calm crest Their essence is reabsorbed into the plane itself and they cease to exist as an ...

well technically they can still reform at least in 5e as of morte's planar parade points out, but historically death on their home plane was a true death, but in morte's planar parade to quote part of it "A petitioner or another Celestial or Fiend that is destroyed can reconstitute on a plane that shares its alignment after 100 years, or it might choose to become one with that plane and never return. A creature that re-forms on the planes multiple times becomes increasingly dissimilar from its original mortal form." end quote

jagged apex
jagged apex
feral lintel
#

or a machine used on wood to get it to a certain thickness

trim raptor
#

planner plans, planer chips wood, planar is dimensional. lol

#

I like this idea of a plane manifesting a defender to defend itself. Like the plane of existence is an intelligent entity or something.

feral lintel
#

that typically comes in the form of elementals, fiends, celestials, and other extraplanar

jagged apex
digital nimbus
#

Can someone explain the lore of the dragon-giant fighting? Did the metallics team with the chromatics, and the storms with the fire, etc? Why were they fighting?

jagged apex
digital nimbus
#

Ok, thanks!

jagged apex
#

like two super big and powerful empires on the same world, especially with the pride and ego that comes with being a dragon, one side was bound to overstep in some way, else at a certain point the giants just felt the dragons were a serious threat

#

and far as i know over time this concept was simply transplanted to many other settings to the point it is almost a sort of universal point in most settings, making the ones that don't have this conflict in some capacity, like eberron, all the more unique

sharp owl
#

Dragons and giants tend to occupy the same niche across settings; one of nigh-immortal beings that are grounded in the material plane with a strong connection to their progenitor gods and a strong sense of entitlement/right to dominance and supremacy in their locales. The exact expression of this obviously varies, but it nonetheless brings the two groups into conflict

calm crest
#

Traditionally Oerth featured cooperation betwixt fire giants and red dragons as well as between frost giants and white dragons.

heady hare
#

what are some well known liches? I have somehow never encounter liches and trying to find someone to be my undead patron. Vecna is the obvious one, but trying to find other interesting ones

#

Also is Vecna not actually Arch lich? he isn't mentioned in the Forgotten Realms wiki Arch lich page

jagged apex
#

arch liches are basically good liches and vecna is literally the god of evil secrets

reef cape
#

So Vecna is not an archlich.

jagged apex
#

Vecna would more so fall under what in the forgotten realms is dubbed a Lich Lord

reef cape
#

As for other known liches... There's Acererak and Larloch mostly. You can't go wrong with Larloch. Vlaakith, eventually...

jagged apex
#

plus "Arch Lich" does not equal "Archlich", as i notice the difference between the good lich and the term vecna is described as is one is a compound word while the other is not

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

at least according to the forgotten realms wiki

thorny hound
#

is there in lore definition of aberations and monstrosities?

storm dagger
#

From the MM

#

“Aberrations are utterly alien beings, such as aboleths, beholders, flumphs, and mind flayers”

#

“Monstrosities are unnatural creatures with strange origins, such as mimics and owlbears”

#

The 2014 had this on Monstrosities as well

#

“Some are the results of magical experimentation gone awry (such as owlbears), and others are the product of terrible curses (including minotaurs and yuan-ti). They defy categorization, and in some sense serve as a catch-all category for creatures that don’t fit into any other type. “

feral lintel
chrome moon
#

Sorry, I´ll put the question there then

fallow leaf
crude blaze
#

Yeah, monstrosities tend to be the category for creatures that were created with magic or monsters that dont quite fit any other category

storm dagger
#

Most classic mythological monsters go into it as well. Hydra, Manticore, Harpies, etc.

reef cape
shadow wedge
#

If all other categorizations fail, it's a monstrosity

jagged apex
#

that is the secondary part of it, primarily it is creatures that are brought into existence do to magic, be it mortal, gods, ect...

#

as kinen described the other day, the official descriptions of those categories should give you a solid idea

#

honestly the new monster manual provides this sort of setting agnostic baseline description with examples for each category

jagged apex
#

as beyond the name, they are not always that close to what you may know from mythology

crude sparrow
#

Qq if a Gold Dragon polymorphed into a Human takes a Human/Elven lover and has a child, would the child come out as a Draconic Sorcerer Human?

harsh obsidian
#

Possibly not all decedents of dragons are sorcerers. Sometimes far down the bloodline a sorcerer will appear just depends on your character backstory or DM story telling. If you want your character to be a direct child of a dragon then go for it. If you meant more on the race part they usually take the form of the more mortal parent so probably be elf or human HOWEVER if it is the DIRECT child of a dragon then you can make them a gold Dragonborn

jagged apex
#

eh, not really

#

as dragonborn don't have a direct connection to dragons, you are likely thinking of a half dragon

jagged apex
jagged apex
light cradle
#

What keeps a cambion from being a tiefling and vice versa

void zenith
#

Egotism.

#

(Take that Acererack)

void zenith
light cradle
#

So cam have full on blood but teiflings have only a touch or something?

void zenith
#

From what I've gathered, tielfings are a smaller form of fiendish ancestry while cam is like right there, ya dig? It's all a little bit confusing.

lost pawn
#

I suspect the thing followers of Bane look for most in their lovers is a nice hand.

light cradle
coral iron
#

so i know that in the dnd lore exists the bhaalspawns, but are they of any race? or is it a specific race?

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

the important thing is that they are children of bhaal, most in the traditional sense as was how he cheated death following his end in the time troubles

whole sentinel
#

Yall got any fresh Ilmater lore for me? Ive read all i can

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge there is no new lore about them yet in published materials, what exist is all we have for the time being

crude sparrow
#

What's the general age range for each tier of dragon?

feral lintel
#

Age group

feral lintel
#

the FR link is the most reliable source we got, and im unfortunately not as knowledgable as Scarletstream

crude sparrow
#

Oh ok

#

So a maybe 500 year old Gold Dragon is an adult cool

feral lintel
#

neither do i have that

#

the FR wiki just gets stuff from the books anywau

#

I wish i can acquire one

jagged apex
#

honestly in practical terms, especially in comparison to say a human, a dragons is effectively an adult within the first few years of it's life, the age categories are more so stages in their life cycle where the increase in size and power, which dragons gain as they age, is significant

jagged apex
#

to partially quote "Much like adventurers in the first tier of play (levels 1 to 4), dragons in their first five years of life are still figuring out their capabilities and their place in the world. Thus, wyrmlings often rely on adult dragons or other companion creatures for safety." end quote, so after those first 5 years, is pretty implied that a wyrmling will know all it needs to survive in the world and start claiming their own territory, said territory growing as they grow in both, size, age, and power, not to mention as their hoard also grows over time

#

though most tend to not properly establish a territory of their own complete with a lair until the young stage according to that book, which is after their first century of life

#

so depending on what you consider to be an adult, a dragon arguably may only need a few years to learn what it needs to effectively survive on it's own if i am not misinterpreting any of it

jagged apex
#

any true dragon in published materials to my knowledge that is over a hundred years old is pretty safe to consider an adult at the very least

#

especially since in 5e adults are described as after their first century of life, so 101 years onwards definitely an adult if not greater

whole sentinel
storm dagger
naive root
#

Is there a lore-wise reasonable way to have a duergar raised by giants? Has this ever been done before in lore?

#

I have only seen the connection between mindflayer and Duergar

jagged apex
#

what setting?

#

cuz far as i know at least in the realms, giants and duergar have not really had any notable interactions

calm crest
#

(Other than perhaps the traditional animosity between giants and dwarves.)

#

Off the top of my head, I know one 2e module had duergar clerics that reanimated undead giants.

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

Stone Giants tend to drive out any non giants they see

jagged apex
#

or otherwise keep their distance is memory serves

#

but just do to location i'd imagine if any interaction beyond stone giants would be the maur https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maur
or maybe even the fomorians, that duergar would be likely to have any interactions with especially looking at more setting agnostic materials for some of the giants and for the duergar

feral lintel
#

I wonder if Bigby has something

small matrix
#

I dont understand

#

are Purebloods the workforce of the Yuan ti?

#

Or just the diplomats/spies?

crude blaze
#

They're typically the infiltrators

#

They can pass for human/oid well enough that they can slither their way into humanoid civilizations and pull the strings from the inside

jagged apex
# small matrix are Purebloods the workforce of the Yuan ti?

they are mostly the least snake like of the yuan-ti, in the realms they are used as infiltrators toward human organizations and nations for that reason, but anything outside of the realms to my knowledge we got pretty much no details on any yuan-ti societies

#

like far as i know the bulk if not all the specifics of their lore as a species is specifically from the forgotten realms setting which has them heavily rooted in an evil nature for a number of reasons, which is not necessarily true for other settings

jagged apex
shadow wedge
#

I do like to run it where becoming a Greatwyrm is not a matter of age, but a matter of great accomplishment. That no matter how old a dragon gets, it must do something especially exemplary to take the final step into partial divinity.

feral lintel
#

Greatwyrms typically are created when a dragon absorbs enough echoes (alternate versions of themselves)

shadow wedge
feral lintel
#

Fizban's changed it a bit then

shadow wedge
#

Still prefer the idea that they're legendary because of their grand exploits.

feral lintel
#

Yeah, thats typically what eating your alters does

jagged apex
#

also part of why true dragons and their age go hand in hand in regards to power, is cuz in published lore historically their power grows as they age instead of ever reaching a point in their life where it just becomes down hill, outside of the twilight stage in 3.5e, which is still way beyond what most people will encounter among dragons and why it presumably was not so well known until then in universe

#

so is less the age itself and the matter of how much power they possess, the natural way is simply growing into it with age

jagged apex
jagged apex
# feral lintel Greatwyrms typically are created when a dragon absorbs enough echoes (alternate ...

well that is one specific example, it is technically any point where an ancient dragon, usually the oldest and most potent of them, achieve godlike power, to partially quote "... so suffused with the magic of the Material Plane that they are all but immortal. Many result from ancient dragons ritually combining multiple echoes of themselves into a single corporeal form, as Ashardalon and Chronepsis are said to have done. Most greatwyrms are at least twelve centuries old and have hoards worth millions of gold pieces, but they are otherwise similar to other ancient dragons in their goals and perspectives." end quote

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as fizban's does explain how at least in the 5e continuity their hoards are more than just treasures but extensions of their magic and power, allowing them to basically magnify their magic and thus why you get various lair effects in the areas they make their lair and keep their hoards, chapter 4 in fizban's treasury of dragons goes into more details but to quote the initial summary of the concept
"Hoarding treasure is an essential part of draconic nature. It’s not that dragons are overwhelmingly greedy, as other peoples understand the term—though some dragons definitely are. Nor are they simply attracted to shiny objects in the manner of magpies. Rather, hoards are extensions of dragons’ inherently magical nature—resonators that focus their magic and link them to the magic of the Material Plane." end quote

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as fizban's puts it practically a dragon's power is 1 part age and 1 part the size of it's hoard

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neither factor on it's own will give you much of an accurate gague of how powerful they are

small matrix
crude blaze
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Like im pretty sure Fizban’s mentions that some Greatwyrms cooperate with their alternative selves, and that’s where a lot of their wisdom and knowledge comes from.

jagged apex
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yes, as i said earlier

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even quoted that part

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becoming a greatwyrm just requires being an ancient dragon and gaining god like power as fizban's puts it, as i quoted earlier

thick sentinel
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That metal boreworm from DotMM is super classic. Was there lorebefore on this? Wasn't there a metal dragon in IcewindDale: Rime of the Frostmaiden?

crude blaze
thick sentinel
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ice-infused Crenshinibon

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any cool metal stuff is what i'm looking for tho

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oh wow! as strong as metal, though considerably easier to work with than steel

jagged apex
jagged apex
storm dagger