#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 61 of 1

manic apex
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Dark elf ?

iron saffron
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One of many sub-species of elves.

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Read the links I just posted above.

light cradle
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I'd you wanna work on making a villain #dm-discussion might be a good place

jagged apex
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which one?

iron saffron
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We already answered that.

jagged apex
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also dark elf and drow, at least on worlds like toril are technically different, one became the other via a certain event in their past

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though sometimes drow will still be called dark elves, not entirely sure why, but it does happen

manic apex
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I see

iron saffron
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Not all dark elves are drow but all drow are dark elves.

jagged apex
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drow were basically what the dark elves that were driven under grown became on worlds like toril do to elven high magic that was used to force them into the underdark, from my understanding if they didn't they would have died

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the udadrow basically being the drow most people on the surface of toril are familiar with and tend to assume all drow are like

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and are also the drow that largely were influenced by lolth and her schemes

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the Lorendrow and Aevendrow only recently being discovered/revealed to exist having managed to avoid the spider queen's manipulation and corruption for so long

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i say discovered/revealed as which word fits depends if you are looking at it from a non meta perspective or not

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basically when you read drow lore and it makes heavy mention or connections to lolth, odds are it when it says drow, they are referring to the udadrow

manic apex
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Mmm

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I read a bit about it

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The spider queen is Lolth

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If i understand

jagged apex
manic apex
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Mmm

jagged apex
# manic apex The spider queen is Lolth

yes, it is one of her many known titles, though my personal favorite i am not sure if it is even allowed to be said on this server given a bit of foul language that makes up part of it

iron saffron
jagged apex
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even when focusing on one setting, if it is one fleshed out enough, like forgotten realms, you are gunna be digging for some time if you wanna get as much info on it as possible, especially with major players like certain gods and characters, such as lolth

manic apex
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😭

feral lintel
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Anotha joins the web that is DnD lore

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We got 50 years worth of it, buckle up

jagged apex
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though a lot of the lore is good stuff, so not like it is a bad thing

manic apex
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That's gonna be one hell of a ride

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Lmao

feral lintel
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I'm personally a fan of how much lore we have

manic apex
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Im very new to dnd

jagged apex
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plus your own games are not bound by published materials, your games are their own continuity, especially if you are using a setting that is not one that is published like say forgotten realms

iron saffron
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If you're new then don't worry about lore because as Scarletsteam said your table may not use the official lore.

manic apex
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Yeah

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Still thanks for the info !

jagged apex
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another friendly tip, don't fall for the misconception of about canon, dnd has multiple continuities, just like it has many settings, worlds, ect...

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you got settings, editions, various forms of media, ect..., there is no 1 singular continuity

manic apex
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Ok 😊

jagged apex
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closest thing is the published continuity, which is as it implies, just what is presented in the books wizards of the coast, or in the case before them, TSR, put out for us to use as default lore if we don't wanna take the time to make up our own or just wanna steal ideas, and even then it is not like it is some lore bible, it is more like a main timeline used for if they are making adventures and the like that reference previously established ones, has 0 barring on your table by default unless the dm says it does

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and even then in some books that are setting agostics what is presented much like the statblocks are just the normals, the average examples, by definition things can deviate

iron saffron
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Scarlet... I think you're dumping too much on them.

manic apex
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Honestly no

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Its really interesting

jagged apex
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sorry, i tend to ramble when talking about things i enjoy a lot

manic apex
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Same here

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I've been starting as a gm recently im all ears when it comes to lore i can use

iron saffron
jagged apex
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in that case, quick tip, dnd is NOT medieval fantasy, that is a common misconception, things like guns and what not, are not as out of place in dnd as some might think especially on certain worlds, is more accurate to say dnd is both a mixture of sci-fi and fantasy, kind of like star wars, is just over the years the fantasy elements became so prominent most people hyper fixated on them or cuz of the lore at the time for certain settings, like how karsus' folly effected the world of toril and how some architecture in faerun just happens to resemble medieval Europe, but it is just that, ascetics, you know the way their buildings tend to look, there is even stuff that some don't think is out of place in medieval fantasy that is not from that era, the time period and tech available in a setting depends on that setting

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also most "tech" in dnd on worlds like toril is rooted in magic anyways unlike worlds that are basically dead magic zones like earth, so advanced tech and high level magic more or less blur the lines between themselves at a certain point in dnd

manic apex
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I see !

jagged apex
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is not our reality obviously, but basically is it as how it would exist if it were to be in the same cosmos as the popular dnd settings we know and love

manic apex
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I didn't know

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Eheh

jagged apex
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personally one of my favorite tidbits about that fact is this one "Elminster's favorite place to relax and find rest off Toril was found in Yellowstone National Park on Earth. He kept a magic portal there from his hideout within the planet Coliar, specifically to the Earth year 1894 AD. It was also here that he purchased German beer to sell to his friend Gamalon Idogyr."

manic apex
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Lmao

jagged apex
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Coliar is basically their equivalent to Venus in terms of positions in relation to their sun, we got earth, they got toril

manic apex
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I see

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Well that's a lot of info

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I didn't know any of that

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Lmao

jagged apex
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as far as i know the similarities tend to end there, as the worlds in realmspace vary a lot especially compared to our own

iron saffron
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Well, Toril has a twin, Abeir...

jagged apex
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but that technically is in some weird sort of pocket dimention and use to be one world anyways, the two combined being known at one point as Abeir-Toril

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basically the over deity of the setting, Ao, split them, giving one to the gods and the other to the primordial so they didn't just destroy it if their fighting over it had gone on

manic apex
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Mmmmmm

jagged apex
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also, unlike irl mythologies or religions, gods in dnd are both NOT all knowing and ARE fallible, ie they very much can make mistakes

manic apex
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I have a question about deities

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Like

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Is it possible for a palladin or clerc to follow a god that doesn't suit the them ?

iron saffron
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In what way?

jagged apex
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paladins do not need gods

manic apex
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Like if a peaceful clerc followed talos

iron saffron
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Well, Talos doesn't have to domain of Peace so that's a no. Talos has the Tempest domain.

jagged apex
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far as i know is technically possible, but very unlikely, as they simply would not find such a different god worth worshiping, Talos is a god of storms and destruction

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granted some clerics can be of different alignment and have a different view of their god, but that is a seperate matter

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some of his titles including "The Destroyer" or "The Raging One"

cinder cloud
iron saffron
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His dogma wouldn't align with a peace cleric.

cinder cloud
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And the oath for an order of Talosian paladins would likely not align with a peaceful mantra

jagged apex
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like the cleric could worship him, but they would not be granted divine power from him, not even all people of a faith are clerics, there are distinctions between things like priests and clerics

iron saffron
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Well, in 2E there was a gameplay mechanic difference.

jagged apex
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and again, paladins technically do not need to be aligned with a god to access their powers, their divine magic comes from their believe and conviction in their oath, something largely that is something already in their hearts, effectively using the same sources the gods use and grant to their clerics, but more direct and in a much more limited capacity since they are mere mortals

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a paladin can serve a god, but the two are not intertwined these days, that would be specific to much older editions which were a lot more strict

manic apex
jagged apex
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it is more like one part will power and one part conviction

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an oath breaker basically being when they lose faith in the cause they have otherwise fought for

iron saffron
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5E paladins do.

jagged apex
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even if it is something like a paladin of conquest, which many would see as a traditionally evil paladin

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older editions were stricter, had different lore, and were dependant on gods from what i am aware, but that only matters if you are playing those editions and using their lore

cinder cloud
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In the Forgotten Realms paladin orders are almost universally aligned with one or more gods. Other settings might be organized differently.

jagged apex
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but again, you do not need to believe in a god these days to be a paladin and have access to your powers, in the 5e continuity your faith in your cause and the resolve to see it through is what matters

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is why they have tenets, sort of loose guidelines of how to act

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you stick to them and believe them to be true in your heart, truely and honestly, you will have access to your abilities of a paladin under that oath

cinder cloud
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None of that really touches on what I said, though. Sure you can make up your own oath, and have it not be connected to a god, sure. But in the Realms, most paladin orders are associated directly with one or more gods.

manic apex
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Mmm

jagged apex
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well in toril gods are known to be real and exist, and while whole orders might serve a god, or line up with their dogma, it is not something that demanded of all paladins

iron saffron
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Scarlet you're describing more of the 5E gameplay mechanics side of the 5E paladins than the lore behind paladins in the Realms.

jagged apex
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sorry

manic apex
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Im a bit confused but i think i got it

iron saffron
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tl;dr Clerics and paladins need faith, most in a deity/ideology/force

manic apex
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So a science paladin could be a thing ?

jagged apex
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science as we understand it in the real world is not really a thing

manic apex
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Yeah

jagged apex
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cuz magic in the dnd cosmos is a fundimental force of the universe, like space, time, gravity, ect...

manic apex
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Mmm

cinder cloud
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Magic pervading the multiverse is a basic assumption of D&D. However, your DM's setting might not align with that basic assumption. Ask your DM.

jagged apex
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like many sciences in worlds with magic are rooted in magic vs what worlds like earth who don't have magic root them in, which is why a pully system for example could still be seen as somewhat impressive to an empire of wizards and artificers that made use of things like portals

light cradle
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In a world in which magic exists it would be considered science

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Imo

jagged apex
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cuz yeah, some places on toril have a history of taking people from earth a long time ago as slaves

manic apex
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Mmmm

iron saffron
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Remember that D&D is first and foremost a game and not a real world simulator.

light cradle
iron saffron
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It has been mentioned already above that Earth exists in the D&D multiverse.

jagged apex
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they came to save their worshipers, as those people who remembered their hold gods like many people in their situation would, prayed for salvation, to be saved

light cradle
jagged apex
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more or less

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ed greenwood did not write the realms with earth cultural analogs in mind, but other writers over time did

light cradle
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I thought they where form like an almost copy of earth that had magic for real

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Otherwise why aren't they just called Egyptians was the name lost to time or something?

jagged apex
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no, the whole reason they were able to be enslaved was largely cuz they didn't and the Imaskar empire did

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i doubt they cared what the name of the land they took them from was called, much less bothered to ask

light cradle
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I mean wouldn’t the kidnapped Egyptians call themselves Egyptians?

iron saffron
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No...

light cradle
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Or whatever is actually the term in the eyptain language

jagged apex
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and again, i doubt the imaskar cared or bothered to ask, so is not like they were gunna tell any of the kids born among their slaves before throwing them into servitude

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heck, given how their prayers to their gods eventually coming through to them, one could argue that if they had to only hold on to one aspect of their culture from before their ensalvement, their gods/their faith was the right call

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why care if you remember your homeland, let alone it's name specifically, if you die as a slave in some unknown land/world?

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and presumably it was cuz that would have just caused more problems much like ye ol' satanic panic

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they were not gunna shoot themselves in the foot that easily if they could help it

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plus given some of their gods stayed behind, they clearly settled on this new world, that we know is toril, and there was definitely not a place called "egypt" on toril

light cradle
jagged apex
jagged apex
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either way we don't know every detail, some things we just have no choice but to speculate if you wanna try to fill in every blank, but i think you might just be thinking about it too hard

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like you live in a land long enough, you more or less become a person of that land, regardless if you were something else before, same princple applies, else, again, you may be putting too much thought into this

serene crater
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a question in rehards to mind flayer lore. Was it ever possible for an elder brain to directly take control of a normal mind flayer, and use its body like a puppet?

cinder cloud
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None that I can find.

tardy wasp
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In Greyhawk lore, is Rao a technically god of the moon? I've been reading some lore about Veluna, and it seems that the whole origin of the land involves lunar worshipers devoted to Rao, who seems to only be about peace in most of the sources I find. I just want to know more about that whole deal.

cinder cloud
steady verge
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are there any demons that look vaguely like humans?

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or humanoids?

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and that are in large numbers?

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i dont want princes, i want lesser demons of which i can have dozens

jagged apex
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remember, the demons in published materials are technically only a miniscule amount of the literal potential endless kinds of demons that exist in the abyss

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short answer is yes, even if some don't nessissarily look like it in their true forms

steady verge
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im more looking for ones that have statblocks

jagged apex
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two such ones that come to mind are succubi and yochlols

steady verge
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what books are yugoloths in?

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i have every 5th edition monster book so i def have it

serene crater
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there are the dybukk which hide inside human corpses, and the maurezhi which can mimic the appearance of a human it has slain, but it eventually begins to fade over time

jagged apex
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yochlols are in the 5e monster manual

serene crater
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the ones scarletstream noted are both in the monster manual

jagged apex
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and succubi are not exclusively demon, but some succubi are demons, much like their queen, so i feel it counts

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just know not all known ones appear in every edition

serene crater
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they've played in the realms of demons so I'd say they pseudo-count

steady verge
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meh its fine, i play in my own setting. i don't play in any written stuff

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i have dragonlance creatures fighting under Orcus, I don't much care about published lore, more just statblocks

jagged apex
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technically there aare sucubbi that are misc fiends, devils, and demons these days

steady verge
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but i asked here because i figured you guys would know he answer to me question, which you did, so im happy

jagged apex
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then you might be hitting up the wrong place as this channel is for what is in the published lore, so we pointed out such demons do exist in published materials, anything beyond that is technically beyond the scope of this channel

steady verge
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i just needed names. going to ask some questions in DM channels later

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but thank you. i'm out, gonna go read those statblocks

serene crater
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ironically the maurezhi does serve orcus, though they're more akin to demonic flesh wearing ghouls

steady verge
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i meant the weird, vaguely dragonborn units displayed in Shadow of the Dragon Queen

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the Tiamat minions

jagged apex
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those are called draconians

steady verge
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yeah the draconians. i use those regularly

modest badger
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Yugoloths are also not demons, but another type of fiend.

obsidian gate
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they used to be called daemons, which is totally not confusing

dry tusk
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They make good minions for an evil dragon

native mauve
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guys will it be ok if i create like, a demon king in my campaign?

ionic rivet
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That is not a topic for this channel - use #dm-discussion to discuss DM'ing topics like what bosses you'd like to use in your game

flint lintel
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do we know what cities are the oldest in Faerun? Like when each of the major cities were founded?

cinder cloud
flint lintel
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here's to hoping each wiki has a note for when each city first appeared

cinder cloud
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Keltar is the oldest as far as I can find.

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There are cities that were long since destroyed that are likely older.

flint lintel
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wonder if i can find order of appearances for adventures of each city. 🤔

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I know Al-Qadim is gonna probably be as old as Faerun adventures wise or older

cinder cloud
flint lintel
cinder cloud
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Yes, that is the FR wiki 🙂

flint lintel
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thanks homie. Been trying to merge different settings into one world map and trying to make sense on when to start this for all my players and such. So trying to stitch these worlds together on what would exist at what point in times (I doubt they will go to Faerun any time soon. They started in Blackmoor/Greyhawk setting). But if someone wants to make their character from a certain continent I got to figure out what all existed at the current point in time

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So this all has been very helpful

static smelt
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Can anyone help me with the different planes?
I’m trying to find a plane that has both mind flayers and gnomes

iron saffron
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Material Plane.

static smelt
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Like Oreth or Toril

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Are there mindflayers and gnomes on Kryn?

iron saffron
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There are gnomes on Krynn. I don't know about mindflayers though.

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Krynn doesn't use a lot of standard D&D monsters as far as I know.

serene crater
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Quick question, has it ever been noted of the exact reason the ilithids hated the arcane? (Reading through volos it notes that it had something to do with the rebellion but it doesn't give any specific info)

iron saffron
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They're psionicists so they look down on the arcane. "Our power comes from our minds and not tapping into the Weave. Pfft!"

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https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_flayer#Magic

Mind flayers considered arcane magic an abomination. They viewed it as an inferior and corrupt form of psionic power that should disappear from the universe once the illithids regained control of it. It was speculated that this hatred was related to the role of magic in the gith rebellion

feral lintel
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Vlaakith was some kinda wizard, aye?

iron saffron
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Lich queen

feral lintel
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Ye, so im guessing she had something to do with it as well

iron saffron
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level 25 wizard for her 3.5E statblock

feral lintel
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geez louis

unkempt merlin
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I don't believe the first vlaakith was a lich?

feral lintel
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Isnt it the same one?

iron saffron
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No

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Both were/are referred to as the Lich Queen.

flint orchid
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So Ogremoch has a good counterpart in Entemoch, do any other elemental princes have good counterparts?

unkempt merlin
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Most of them do yes

jagged apex
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far as i know though, orgemoch and entemoch are the only ones with a sibling relationship, the others to my knowledge are counterparts simply do to being archromentals of opposing alignments

silent atlas
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What are some of torils hollidays

sterile breach
tired edge
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is there an "official" relationship of any kind between lycanthropes and vampires in base DND. By base I mean forgotten realms

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I'm curious since I'm planning to heavily feature lycanthropes and vampires in my campaign

iron saffron
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No there aren't.
Remember that you can do whatever you want in your homebrew campaign.

brazen bramble
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thats crazy..

light cradle
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Do all of the crystal spheres share the same outer planes or do they each have their own?

jagged apex
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the cosmos by default uses the same outerplanes

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it only varies if the setting in questions says otherwise, mostly if it is selfcontained like is the case for eberron

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there is not multiple versions of the outer planes for exach setting, they are the same planes as they are in other settings, if you go to the 9 hells for example you are in the nine hells, the same nine hells as if you were on toril and were a part of the adventurers that ventured into avernus, the first layer of the nine hells, during the adventure decent into avernus

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why some people think this is not the case despite all the evidence establishing it as the case, idk

jagged apex
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with a few exceptions, like eberron which is the most obvious one do to it's self-contained cosmology

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though these days i believe the term used in place of crystal spheres is wildspace systems

iron saffron
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Think of cosmologies as how mortals belief the planes of existence correlate with each other. The planes don't actually change with each change of cosmology (World Tree > World Axis > Great Wheel) but rather how they're perceived on a metaphysical level since most of the planes don't actually interact with each other.

jagged apex
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but even then, far as i am aware at least, in published materials those planes that are shared among them are the same planes as they are in other settings, if they are not they are usually given a different name

iron saffron
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There are planes in the World Tree and World Axis that aren't 1:1 with ones in the Great Wheel (usually those planes are the domains of pantheons).

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The Outer Planes in the World Tree/World Axis were more about the homes of the deities and less about the alignment spectrum as in the Great Wheel.

jagged apex
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plus the planes are, to my knowledge, not tied to any one peticular setting, they in that way, sort of setting agnositc

iron saffron
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The Inner Planes tend to be setting agnostic, so since the Outer Planes are related to deities they're less setting agnostic.

jagged apex
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eh, to my knowledge they are not really related to the deties other than just they are known to live there or on a specific layer

iron saffron
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That's what I meant, they're home of the gods.

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The Inner Planes are related to the Material Plane — the Elemental Chaos that helped create and shape the Material Plane — while the Outer Planes have always been about where the gods are.

jagged apex
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though it seems more recently many deities domains either have moved to somewhere in the outlands or the astral plane, is weird like that, but far as i know in published materials the planes of existance are shared across settings unless noted otherwise in said setting

iron saffron
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The Outlands is just the True Neutral plane.

jagged apex
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indeed

tepid matrix
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Is there a D&D book that has the descriptions, stats, lore, and etc of all their deities?

feral lintel
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Which setting? Or just all in general? If the latter, doubt it

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There was a book in 3.5e(?) That had the stats for many deities tho

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Forgot the name

tepid matrix
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Wdym by which setting?

feral lintel
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World. Setting means like, Tal Dorei, Greyhawk, Eberron, etc

tepid matrix
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Ohh- I guess in general cuz I am unfamiliar with those names
Like besides wikis (since it keeps doing weird glitchy things) I was hoping there was an official book of their deities, at least with their lore and descriptions

unkempt merlin
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the PHB lists a bunch of different deities

serene crater
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quick question, but are mind flayers particularly xenophobic to each other, or at least willing to sabotage/exterminate another colony to get their desires?

unkempt merlin
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most deities do not have stats, and those that do only have some stats for certain avatars (as of 5e). and thats more a mechanics question

tepid matrix
iron saffron
iron saffron
# tepid matrix Ohh- I guess in general cuz I am unfamiliar with those names Like besides wikis ...

1E had Deities & Demigods
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Deities_%26_Demigods_1st_edition
2E had Legends & Lore
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Legends_%26_Lore
2E had Monster Mythology
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Monster_Mythology
3E had Deities & Demigods
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Deities_and_Demigods
3E had Faiths & Panteons
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Faiths_and_Pantheons

tepid matrix
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Thx!

iron saffron
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I recommend just using the Forgotten Realms wiki unless you have access to the original books like I do!

tepid matrix
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Gotcha
(Wish I had the books in my shelves lol)

unkempt merlin
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Obviously just keep in mind the FR wiki is for well. The FR. It does not always contain info (or necessarily accurate info) in regards to things from other settings

tepid matrix
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Ohh alright, understood

light cradle
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What is the weakest and strongest thing you could get sorcerer powers from

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Like a specific creature

iron saffron
light cradle
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Aight

jagged apex
# serene crater quick question, but are mind flayers particularly xenophobic to each other, or a...

not to my knowledge, they are already still trying to recover from the gith pushing them to near extinction and rebuilding their empire, infighting over such petty things would only get in the way of that, and being the hyper logical beings they are, there is no reason to believe they would think in that way, most colonies are controlled by their elder brain anyways
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_flayer#Relationships

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seems at most there might just be some debates over their differences, nothing even remotely like sabotage or selfish desires, that sort of thing would go against the very nature of their society under the elder brain of their colony

jagged apex
untold sandal
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Other than the common language, what are some popular languages that magical texts would be written in? Anything from Wizardry textbooks to lore about magic, to tomes with ancient magical discoveries of times past. Are there specific races that were adept with magic earlier than the others and might have documented a lot of that stuff?

jagged apex
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common is a language of trade, and to my knowledge not many magical texts may be written in it, except maybe scrolls that could be bought

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as for specific races, yes, though not sure how many may have documented them in so far as written them down

main canopy
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It would make sense that evocation magic would take formulas and terms from primordial which is spoken by elementals.

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Ancient Netherese might be a language too.

serene ravine
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are Gods that made their own races? or the races naturally developed and then from their belief race-specific Gods emerged?

unkempt merlin
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What setting?

serene ravine
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Faerun setting.

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But for the sake of the question, you can reference other settings as well. I mean, same principles guide Gods in other settings, no?

iron saffron
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D&D is very creationist in that many deities created sentient species in their image.

grim siren
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In Faerun mostly Gods come first. But not all races have gods.

cinder cloud
iron saffron
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For example, Corellon Larethian is the creator god of the elves and eladrin.

grim siren
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For example there is no god of Humans. There is the Faerunian pantheon which most humans follow. But so do many other species.

iron saffron
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The one sentient species that have no one singular creator god are humans.

serene ravine
iron saffron
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Yes.

serene ravine
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OK, that clarifies it. Thank you.

#

One question related to it; what is the most recent created race?

iron saffron
#

A lot of the sentient species on Toril are actually from other worlds.

iron saffron
serene ravine
#

Before David comes around and gets triggered, I'll clarify by race I mean species of sentient creature. I'm talking Toril primarily.

iron saffron
#

Toril is only about 35,000-years-old.

grim siren
#

If in Faerun I would think the Dragonborn, is the most recent. but we don't exactly how or when they came to be.

#

We only know they are not a Creator Race.

iron saffron
serene ravine
iron saffron
#

See above.

serene ravine
#

^ Checking now, thanks.

grim siren
#

The Originals of which Fey and Humans are the only ones still kicking around in remarkable numbers.

iron saffron
#

Creator races are the sentient species that were there in the beginning of Abeir-Toril's creation around -35,000 DR

serene ravine
#

I didn't know that about humans. Why are the elves not mentioned here?

grim siren
#

Elves came from the Feywild

#

they are not native.

cinder cloud
#

In other settings like Eberron, races like elves and drow were created through expiriments on eladrin.

serene ravine
#

Ahaaa, OK.

iron saffron
#

Again, most sentient species on Toril are from other worlds.

serene ravine
#

So Elves are native to what world then?

#

OK Feywild.

#

But Feywild is not a world, is it?

cinder cloud
#

It's a plane

grim siren
#

Its an echo plane.

iron saffron
#

The Feywild and Shadowfell are "echoes" of the Material Plane.

serene ravine
#

A quick search suggests they used it to arrive in Toril, but that does not mean the plane was their home. Is there an origin world where elves come from?

#

Rather than just a plane?

iron saffron
#

Elves, dwarves, goblins, and orcs were of course not counted as creator races and did not even appear in records or cave paintings of the time because they, as well as some other human ethnic groups, came later from different worlds

grim siren
#

Mulan Humans represent!

cinder cloud
serene ravine
#

Aha, OK, so no origin world, just Feywild. Thanks, that clarified it.

#

Is this lore of history known and understood by modern-day D&D civilizations set in 5e era?

#

Was it used as justification for war/conflict i.e. "you're not of this world"?

grim siren
#

possibly by sages in big cities.

iron saffron
#

Historians know about it.

grim siren
#

But the average Farmer in outside of Longsaddle, they are lucky if they were taught to read.

iron saffron
#

Look at the average person in the real world — most don't care about prehistoric/ancient history because they're too busy trying to survive day to day.

serene ravine
#

If historians know it, rulers would know it. Justification could be used by human-dominated societies for war citing that elves do not belong in their world, they're interlopers, and foster conflict or aggression that is lawful. Are there examples of such a thing done lore-wise?

iron saffron
#

This is slipping out of Lore territory.

serene ravine
#

I argue it is lore, because I am asking if it was done already.

grim siren
#

In terms of Lore wise in Faerun usually it was the Elves doing it to everyone else. '

serene ravine
iron saffron
#

Again, most sentient species on Toril are not originally from Toril.

cinder cloud
grim siren
# serene ravine What do u mean?

When the Elves arrived they were much more advanced than the humans of modern day Chult and Katashaka, their kingdoms were grand and vast. They built so many kingdoms and had so many crowns to go around there was literally a series of wars called the Crown Wars.

Elves even aided and abetted the destruction of the one of the most advanced human civilizations on Toril, the Psiocracy of Jhaamdath.

serene ravine
grim siren
#

Not really but it was free real estate per bigger army diplomacy

serene ravine
#

What was their reason for leaving Feywild? Was there any, or they just appeared?

grim siren
#

The Native Fey opened a portal to the Feywild.

iron saffron
#

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf#The_Dawn_Ages

The Fey opened gates from Faerie to Toril circa −30,000 DR, allowing the first elves to cross over and settle, as part of an effort to undermine the power of the dragons. The green elves continued to live contentedly as small, scattered tribes and worshiped the Faerie gods (rather than the then-unknown Seldarine). However, one tribe, the Ilythiiri, negotiated with the dragons and established a small southern kingdom based around their capital, Atorrnash, which stood as a glorious example of elven culture for millennia to come.

Circa −25,400 DR, following the fall of Tintageer in the world of Faerie, a small band of gold elves led by Prince Durothil, together with a single silver elf, Sharlario Moonflower, searched for a new home. A divination showed them the world of Toril and the gold elf priestess Bonnalurie died to open a gate there that allowed the elven refugees of Tintageer through. They settled on a continent they named Faerûn, meaning "the One Land". They mixed with the existing green elves and gave rise to the sun elves, while the descendants of Sharlario Moonflower became known as the moon elves

cinder cloud
serene ravine
#

So, prior to their arrival the Dragons ruled Toril.

#

And Fey wanted them usurped.

#

Were these ancient elves vassals of Fey in a way?

cinder cloud
# serene ravine Did they arrive as conquerors from Feywild?

No, but they found themselves in the middle of a huge conflict between dragons and giant kind. The two factions were destroying everything in their path in the pursuit of supremacy over the other, and the elves interceded and proved capable foes.

serene ravine
#

The first record of the fey immigrating to Abeir-Toril from Faerie—as the plane was previously called—came about circa -27000 DR. This great migration included lythari, avariel, and green elves,[11] ancestors of the wild elves and dark elves,[14] and eladrin,[note 1] ancestors of the other elven races.[55] The Fey ushered the elves to Toril, hoping the then-primitive creatures would help bring down the reign of dragons.

cinder cloud
main canopy
# serene ravine are Gods that made their own races? or the races naturally developed and then fr...

Tbh its hard to say. Ultimately even creation stories of Corellon is a mythologized version of what "actually" happened. Did Corellon "exist" when the elves were still Feywild Eladrin? Hard to say.

In the wiki atleast humans (during the time of the Creator Races) were called "primitive and apelike". Im taking that to mean that evolution is the explanation for d&d humans and that the same may be true of other races. Being an ostensibly "younger" race theres just more sentient accounting of the origin of humans.

Elves couldve evolved from pixies for all we know. Its just such ancient history that the lore is sparse or vague on it

iron saffron
main canopy
iron saffron
#

Again, D&D is very creationist.

#

It's been established since 1E that many greater gods created species in their image.

main canopy
#

Sure but elf lore has also changed heavily since then

iron saffron
#

Otherwise please cite your sources.

main canopy
#

And so has the cosmology

iron saffron
#

Cite your sources if you're trying to contradict 50 years of D&D lore.

main canopy
#

The feywild is not even connected to the outer planes where the deities "live"

iron saffron
#

Mortals don't live in the Outer Planes where the gods reside.

main canopy
#

The feywild doesnt have deities*. It is not connected to the astral plane or outer planes. Elves are originally from the feywild (as eladrin atleast in 5e lore)

#

If the elves existed as eladin in the feywild where there are no gods then Corellon (ATLEAST AS HE IS KNOWN AS A PROPER DEITY) did not create the elves.

iron saffron
main canopy
#

Mythology is stories. That is what i am saying

iron saffron
#

This is D&D lore.

main canopy
#

Archfey arent deities

iron saffron
#

They are deities, in the they have divine ranks (see 2E Monster Mythology).

main canopy
#

Im talking 5e lore

unkempt merlin
#

Some archfey are deities, some are not

iron saffron
#

Queen of Air and Darkness and Titania are greater deities.

#

This channel isn't limited to 5E.

unkempt merlin
#

They are not mutually exclusive titles, much like how demon lord and god aren't. Or archdevil and god.

#

Lolth and Asmodeus respectively

iron saffron
#

Tiamat as well.

unkempt merlin
#

Formerly yea

iron saffron
#

If you want to espouse your theories of mythology then go to #dnd-discussion but this channel deals with published official D&D lore. That's why I asked you to cite your sources.

main canopy
#

Ok, ok. So like in Rhime of the Frostmaiden || one of the ways to defeat auril permanently is to stop her worship otherwise she will come back on the next solstice|| . I dont think theres any 5e lore to support that Corellon was worshipped by elves when they were Fey Eladrin. If they are not being worshipped how can they have created the eladrin

cinder cloud
# main canopy Im talking 5e lore

You are free to ignore, embrace or change any of the lore to suit your needs. But officially speaking, there are multiple sources that contradict what you are saying above.

unkempt merlin
#

Not quite sure what the spoilered bit has to do with the discussion?

And mortals aren't required to worship their creator deities. They often don't in multiple settings

iron saffron
#

5E retconned the history of the eladrin (which there are three types: celestial, fey, and noble).

cinder cloud
main canopy
iron saffron
#

Deities's divine ranks are based on the number of worshippers they have. The less worshppers mean they get weaker.

#

Corellon has millions of worshippers across countless worlds, hence why he's a greater deity.

main canopy
#

I will move discussion to other channel. It seems theres enough contradiction that yall consider this non-lore.

iron saffron
#

Because you didn't cite your sources of your claims.

main canopy
unkempt merlin
#

In some settings worship and divinity isn't really linked in that way

iron saffron
#

Gods don't need to be dedicated worshippers to have/maintain/gain divine power. For example, Umberlee is a greater goddess of the sea and she's quite evil but sailors pray to her nonetheless out of fear than love so they'll have safe passage.

jagged apex
#

plus as oldman pointed out some gods are able to get worship in a very old testiment kind of way as i have heard it called, basically "worship me or face my wrath" kind of deal

chilly roost
iron saffron
#

4E lore: "Hold my mead."

chilly roost
#

Book of Exalted Deeds is a good book too for holy lore.

#

Truthfully I didn't play 4e.

iron saffron
#

Eh, I wouldn't rely on the Book of Exalted Deeds for lore of deities.

jagged apex
#

yeah, not all gods are of a good nature/alignment

#

and the book of exalted deeds is literally the counterpart to the book of vile darkness, is a book of good and thus the sourcebook version that shares it's name is mainly about good natured things

iron saffron
#

The book doesn't really cover deities.

jagged apex
#

yeah, there is that two, but even if it did, it would be a poor source still

#

plus if i am not mistaken while closely associated, "holy" and "good" are technically distinct and not one in the same or joined at the hip or anything like that

chilly roost
#

I meant holy stuff like paladin oaths not holy stuff like holy gods.

#

I like the vows from that book for applying it to games. Gives you a decent role play arc.

#

I'm currently looking to see if there are any Far Realm deities

#

Anyone know?

iron saffron
#

The beholders have the Great Mother.
The illithids have Ilsensine and Maanzecorian

chilly roost
#

Exactly what I was looking for thanks.

serene ravine
#

... is there a bank in Baldur's Gate?

cinder cloud
serene ravine
#

That's from BG3 but answers my question, thanks.

feral lintel
#

BG3 takes place in Toril/FR

serene ravine
#

Would temples of Waukeen be basically banks?

cinder cloud
iron saffron
#

It is referenced in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus.

#

See the sources cited in that article.

jagged apex
jagged apex
obtuse jetty
#

Oh, my bad y'all. Thank you.

#

I misunderstood the channel name.

cinder cloud
analog ruin
#

hi I want to make a paladin oath of the crown, the campaign starts on neverwinter so I wanted to know which organization my character could be a part of

#

Ti-moth shared this link but I'm not sure which organization is currently active

sterile breach
analog ruin
#

okey what about gem dragonborns

#

where do they come from, eggs?

jagged apex
#

no reason to assume otherwise, as dragonborn as a whole are born from eggs, laid by their mother

#

cuz far as i know nothing suggests that changing from one kind of dragonborn to another

cinder cloud
analog ruin
jagged apex
#

no

#

dragonborn are not dragons

cinder cloud
balmy garden
#

Can a cleric worship multiple gods like a pantheon or only 1 god

ionic perch
#

I see no reason why they can’t worship multiple.

balmy garden
#

Oki ty

vocal mortar
# analog ruin Oh yeah that's the one I linked

In the Sword Coast adventurers Guide that was released at the beginning of 5E, the story of Neverwinter is focused on rebuilding after the catastrophe when Mount Houtenow erupted. The article on the ruler Neverember would give an overview of what happened regarding the ruling power of Neverwinter during the rebuilding. (not sur eif they ahve describes any knigthly orders, you and DM might have to create form the crumbs given, for instance is Tyr mentioned.)

jagged apex
#

at least that is my understanding

analog ruin
iron saffron
#

Clerics tend to be dedicated to one god worshipping multiple gods.

A cleric of Tyr may pray to Umberlee for a safe voyage and to Tymora for good luck.

unkempt merlin
#

Depends heavily on the setting. Even in settings where there are clerics who do the above, there are also clerics who worship say, the Seldarine as a whole and "get their power" from all of them "equally". Which would be different than worshipping Corellon and sometimes praying to other members of the Seldarine

serene crater
#

quick question but did the original illithid empire have a democratic way of things (possibly different elder brains in charge of locations/aspects of knowledge) or was it one ruler and kept going down the chain, or another political system?

spiral igloo
iron saffron
spiral igloo
serene crater
feral lintel
spiral igloo
# feral lintel You don't need a god to be a cleric.

Technically no, you do not need a god. The Church of the Silver Flame, and the Blood of Vol in Eberron are faiths without gods, and have clerics, true, My point was you worship one thing, be a god or a concept

unkempt merlin
#

you don't need to worship one thing though

unkempt merlin
spiral igloo
#

Been a long time since I seen someone try to play one, but never seen it done well

unkempt merlin
#

thats a different topic that isn't very appropriate for the lore channel

spiral igloo
#

Fair

#

But, with some players, it is so much easier for them to worship a singular god or concept than a pantheon or something, but that is a different channel all together

feral lintel
spiral igloo
#

I did poinnt that out

jagged apex
#

to be fair, in eberron divine magic works differently compared to other settings, at least in regards to clerics

spiral igloo
#

Very true. Arcane is a science. Divine is less

unkempt merlin
#

Divine magic works largely the same

feral lintel
#

It's all from the Weave

unkempt merlin
#

"magic of the gods" =/= "magic from the gods" intrinsically regardless of setting

spiral igloo
spiral igloo
unkempt merlin
#

There are plenty of aspects of divine magic they understand in Eberron

#

the only thing that there isn't is "confirmed proof" of entities that would be considered gods in other settings

jagged apex
#

the arcane is like a science in most settings last i checked, is why wizards when using magic their proccess involves lots of study, fomulas, ect..., working to find the ways to get the desired result nearly every time when casting a spell

#

after all in most settings i am aware of with magic, that is what their tech is rooted in vs what we one earth do to our lack of magic root our stuff in

serene ravine
#

Power of the paladin stems from oaths (unless you break it... then you still get power but w/e) so... what exactly is it? I don't get it, lore-wise. Is your belief as a mortal so damn powerful that you manifest divine power because of your belief? That would imply some fanaticism or outright zeal past the point of just belief no?

unkempt merlin
#

Much like how a clerics power comes from belief, a paladins power comes from conviction

serene ravine
#

But the source of a cleric's power is their Deity.

#

What fuels the Paladin?

unkempt merlin
#

The source of a clerics power is not necessarily a deity no. It's their belief. With some variation based on setting. Otherwise godless clerics wouldn't exist but they very much do

#

What fuels the paladin is conviction to their oath

serene ravine
#

OK, first time I hear about this. Godless clerics? Isn't that a paradox?

unkempt merlin
#

No, because clerics get their power from belief

serene ravine
#

From what I know of overall lore, aren't clerics supposed to make new deals with their Gods counterpart if they travel enough distance, like in a different sphere, or some such?

#

Suggesting all their power comes from their deity and they don't have any actual power?

#

Just like warlocks. If the pact gets unmade, they are powerless.

unkempt merlin
#

In short, no

cinder cloud
# serene ravine Power of the paladin stems from oaths (unless you break it... then you still get...

Sources of power for various classes depend on the setting largely. In the Forgotten Realms most paladin orders are subservient to one or not gods, so although they uphold an oath, that oath is closely tied to the gods and the divine power paladins wield is very much sourced from them. Clerics in the Realms are chosen by their gods to serve as their agents in the material plane, and also wield divine power through them.

#

So while there are godless paladins and clerics, where they actually exist largely depends on the setting

iron saffron
#

Godless clerics isn't a 5E thing either. They go back at least 3.5E Deities & Demigods.

jagged apex
jagged apex
cinder cloud
#

There was a blurb in XG IIRC that paved the way for them...

#

The cleric's class features often refer to your deity. If you are devoted to a pantheon, cosmic force, or philosophy, your cleric features still work for you as written. Think of the references to a god as references to the divine thing you serve that gives you your magic.

#

Found it

fathom belfry
#

Hello. Can someone tell me if there are human ethnicities, places and states in the Forgotten Realms inspired by the peoples of Polynesia and Micronesia (New Zealand, Hawaii, Easter Island, Australia, Philippines)? I write my setting related to the culture of these peoples and look for more inspiration and connections with existing ideas.

unkempt merlin
cinder cloud
#

Yep, I was responding to the first part

jagged apex
#

besides if you are making your own setting, is not really something you need to ask about

jagged apex
# fathom belfry Hello. Can someone tell me if there are human ethnicities, places and states in ...

and if wanting to mainly work on your own setting which you are writing, you may wanna try #dm-world-building as that would be more on topic in that chat than in here unless you wanna compare and contrast every ethnicity in the forgotten realms for humans, cuz i know that some of them have parralels to those in our own world but there are so many i honestly don't know which are which off the top of my head https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Human#Ethnicities

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

yeah only real thing, if anything, you could extrapolate from published lore examples is that these ethnicities are effectively never called by their original names ie what they would be here on earth

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

and those that do have info is largely cuz they were campaign settings that were retroactively made part of toril if i am not mistaken, like obviously faerun was already part of toril, was more so meaning the other 3

iron saffron
#

They weren't part of Ed Greenwood's map, which was limited to Faerun, when TSR bought the setting from him.

flint lintel
#

Man. Blackmoor lore is so cool.

In the setting there is a mandate that Nobles must adventure at least 5 years in their domain so they understand the people they are ruling and the area around their domain. Its such a cool little thing to learn

fathom belfry
iron saffron
#

Perhaps ask in Ed Greenwood's Discord server? Again, not much has been published outside of the Faerun, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and Maztica continents.

true saffron
#

Would a resurrection spell like Revivify and Raise Dead work on an illithid? What about Clone or Reincarnation?

iron saffron
#

As per the spell descriptions they can.

unkempt merlin
#

There's a problematic intersection of lore and mechanics there yea

true saffron
#

Not sure where else to go, sorry.

unkempt merlin
#

If the question is "do illithids have souls", the general answer is yes

#

Bg3 aside

iron saffron
#

The question is more game mechanics related so #dnd-discussion would be a better place to ask.

true saffron
#

Gotcha. Again, sorry about that.

tired island
#

Are the new orcs gruumans? They look very happy for gruumans

iron saffron
#

What's a gruuman?

tired island
#

A follower of Gruumsh

iron saffron
#

Sure.

light cradle
#

Is there rules for building a spell jammer ship?

iron saffron
#

That's not a lore question if you're asking about rules. #dnd-discussion would be a better place to ask about 5E Spelljammer rules.

light cradle
#

Dang it I missed

#

Sorry

iron saffron
jagged apex
tired island
#

idk that's what I saw on the church of Gruumsh or Gruumsh page

#

I thought it was cute and funny

jagged apex
tired island
#

Yeah it's right there on the church of Gruumsh page

jagged apex
#

i ain't seeing it anywhere unless it is really well hidden

tired island
#

Source is forgotten realms campaign guide

#

p80

#

2008 ed

jagged apex
#

well far as i know no such page exists on the forgotten realms wiki and i don't own that book, but this is the first i have ever heard of such a term

#

oh, that is probably why, it is a 4e source, clearly not a term they decided to carry over since that seems it may be the only source where such a term is even used

iron saffron
#

Gruuman is mentioned in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. As far as I know it's not mentioned in past editions.

jagged apex
#

and has not seemed to have been carried over into 5e, so seems the term may be exclusive to 4e's continuity

hazy apex
#

lore question: does ao care about powerful not gods?

jagged apex
#

Ao cares about the balance the cosmos that makes up realmspace

#

if they threaten the stability of the forgotten realms setting and nobody does anything to try to stop them, he will definitely take notice and take action, and the gods will likely be punished like they tend to be everytime he has to get involved directly

#

so honestly it kind of depends, most of the time, probably not gunna care like at all

hazy apex
jagged apex
#

possibly, usually when Ao steps in, it is because the gods are not doing their job or not doing it properly

#

plus it all depends what this Power is doing, as the majority of the time Ao is aloof, really only concerned about the balance and safety of realmspace

serene ravine
jagged apex
#

at least not to the point where things get dangerous for realmspace just existing

#

as long as realmspace is stable and able to simply exist as part of the multiverse, he is more or less content

#

assuming no gods do something stupid like the dead 3 did when they stole the tablets of fate in a misguided bid to increase their own power

#

like they went through all that trouble and most if not all of what they thought the tablets of fate to be was out right wrong

serene ravine
#

since they were able to steal it from him in the 1st place it means Ao's also limited in power, even in his own sphere, no?

jagged apex
#

is kind of why most other gods, like more powerful ones, make a plan that makes a major change, they do it in a way that in centered around the other planes of existence or across multiple worlds, thus their plans being outside of his jurisdiction

jagged apex
#

presumable the only reason they were stolen at all, was cuz the dead 3 were the only ones stupid enough to think it was a good idea, like at all

#

most if not all the other gods, knew better

#

but the dead 3 were former motals and tend to think more like a mortal would than how a god would, so that tends to bite them in the end when they do their plans like that more often than not, least far as i understand it

#

honestly in the grand scheme of the gods of realmspace, the dead 3 are kind of pathetic compared to the majority of other deities

#

one way you could put it is they think too small, they rarely if ever look at the big picture

serene ravine
#

and yet Ao didn't smite them out of existence.

jagged apex
#

cuz they otherwise were doing their jobs and eventually the tablets were returned

#

basically, they were lucky that Ao's list of priorities is very short

serene ravine
#

what do u mean?

jagged apex
#

like the list of things he is concerned with you could count on 1 hand

#

i'd presume because he rather accurately for the most part, figured that after what all happened with the time of troubles, with two of them getting killed, they would not dare do something like that again, and would if they even came close, would be their own undoing

#

like by all accounts they are lucky that he did not counteract their shenanigans that bane and bhaal used to cheat death and that myrkul did not get the divine boot, though honestly not even sure what would happen to a deity that is not multi-spherical if they were denied access to realmspace, basically not being allowed any divine presence in the forgotten realms

serene ravine
#

prob the equivalent of starving to death

jagged apex
#

well death to a deity in dnd is more like a divine comma vs death in the traditional sense as we mortals think

#

but yeah, either way, not a fun time for said deity, least is probably a safe assumtion to make

sharp owl
#

This isn't the "Would it make sense" channel I'm afraid

#

This is the "What does the lore say" channel

orchid raptor
#

im asking if devils would have quasit slaves

#

isnt that lore related?

sharp owl
#

You didn't ask "Are there any instances of devils having quasit slaves?"
You asked "Would it make sense for Zariel to have a Quasit slave?"
The former is a #dnd-lore question
The latter is a #dm-world-building question

orchid raptor
#

ok, sorry

sharp owl
#

I was directing you to the correct channel for your question based on the actual question you asked, I was only trying to help you both get an answer and also better understand the channels and their purposes

serene ravine
#

Bhaal got resurrected before the Spellplague i.e. Cyric imprisonment. Question is, why didn't Cyric murder him immediately after his resurrection?

#

Was there something preventing him?

#

I do not understand how Bhaal survived after his resurrection.

jagged apex
#

cuz to this day Cyric is still imprisoned, least far as we know from the lore

#

so otherwise, was presumably because divine politics

#

plus from what i am seeing, Bhaal was NOT ressurrected before the spellplague

#

which by the by was after the spellplague

jagged apex
serene ravine
#

Didn't events of Baldur's Gate happen in 1368?

#

(Dunno if BG1-2 is considered canon to the lore)

#

Ye, according to BG timeline, 1368 DR: The Iron Crisis begins and Gorion is murdered.

#

Spellplague happened in 1385 DR

iron saffron
#

The video games are canon only to themselves.

jagged apex
#

anything in published materials takes priority over the bg series of games, anything that contradicts does not apply other continuities

#

as the bg series of games of their own continuity and while some stuff can line up, it is not necessarily ment to let alone cleanly

serene ravine
#

hmmm. OK, I see.

jagged apex
#

is why what events in bg3, if any, are unknown if they are canon to the wider lore of the forgotten realms as we have to wait till they are referenced in future published materials, which would thus cement what version of those events happened if anything

serene ravine
#

so if Bhaal would have been resurrected in Baldur's Game cannons a few years before Spellplague, and Cyric was still at the height of his power as a Greater Deity what would have prevented him from eliminating an enemy, a threat that takes a small fraction of portfolio before he becomes a danger to Cyric?

#

we established before Ao didn't like the dead 3. they had no allies, Bhaal least of all.

jagged apex
#

which seems to take place sometime prior to the Year of the Gauntlet, 1369 DR, that year being where to quote the wiki "Cyric briefly appeared within the Pocket Plane that manifested from the divine realm of Bhaal. Cyric spoke with one of the last remaining Bhaalspawn, Abdel Adrian, to assess how much a threat he posed of ascending as the God of Murder. Cyric appeared to be aware of the madness he held, but remained civil and did not stray from Ao's decree that he not interfere with the Bhaalspawn crisis." which cites bg2:throne of bhaal as it's source

#

so seems even in that continuity he may have been crazy, but not stupid, let alone enough to go against big A

serene ravine
#

Oh, so Ao degreed him not to interfere directly.

#

I did not know that.

#

But wait, in the events of The Cyrinishad I can see Cyric running amuck on the mortal plane doing murder and things directly.

#

How's that possible? Didn't Ao ban that shit after Times of Trouble?

#

Cyric focused all his attention on the Mortal Realms and ignored his denizens, leading to growing unrest in the City of Strife.[74] He then initiated an inquisition against the heretical Bane-worshipers in cities across the Moonsea.[192] Armed with powerful Gondar suits of armor,[188] Cyric's inquisitors began in Zhentil Keep,[183][193][194] and continued the slaughter throughout Darkhold, Mulmaster, Teshwave, Yûlash, and the Citadel of the Raven.[90][195] This slaughter later came to be known as the Second Banedeath.[196]

Cyric then raised an army of dragons and frost giants from Thar to the north and directed them to march south in an invasion of Zhentil Keep,[198] with the intent of saving the city and emerging as its savior.

#

Cyric is murdering, Cyric is raising armies, Cyric is running amuck on Prime.

#

Cyric retrieved the final draft of the Cyrinishad from Rinda, and revealed that he was aware of her treachery and took the book for himself. He compelled Fzoul Chembryl to read from the tome and then murder the young scribe.

jagged apex
#

after the time of troubles, the way divine power worked was reworked, them being forbidden from intervening directly in mortal affairs is a more recent rule

serene ravine
#

So, the info on the wiki is outdated and was retconned?

jagged apex
#

"In the late 15th century DR, following the events of the Second Sundering when most deities withdrew their direct influence from Toril, Bane along with the returned Myrkul and Bhaal remained behind as quasi-deities. Though he was still able to influence events over Faerûn, Bane was essentially trapped in a mortal form." cited as being from baldur's gate: decent into avernus

#

and again, by this point in time, Cyric was already imprisoned

#

i think you are mixing some things up, is the main issue you are having here

serene ravine
#

That is after the Times of Trouble, but -before- the Spellplague.

#

This is wiki link.

#

What you posted.

#

Spellplague happened in 1385 DR. Times of Trouble was 1358 DR.

#

After the Times of Trouble, Cyric, a Greater Deity is doing all those things; being on Prime, Raising Armies, Killing Mortals Directly, etc before his Imprisonment. By the sounds of it, he's doing a Crusade in all but name. At the very least, he's fighting a Holy War.

jagged apex
#

yeah but the definition of such in dnd is not necessarily the same as irl

#

and again there are a number of other finer details, and the whole not getting directly involved in mortal afairs thing was not established, at least far as i am aware in that time period

queen spire
#

So are the class names canon? Like, do characters call themselves Paladins and Rangers?

iron saffron
#

No, the class names are gameplay mechanics.

A fighter in the game world may call themselves a warrior, knight, or just brawler.
A wizard in the game world may call themselves a magic-user, mage, or a magician.

grim siren
iron saffron
#

Do you have a lore question?

short peak
#

Yep, do bahamut have always his seven dragon ?

#

(The real question is, do bahamut if he fight a group of adventurer, have his 7 dragon with him to help at the fight ?)

obsidian gate
#

Bahamut takes many disguises so I would assume he doesnt always have them along

covert island
#

If they are around him they take up the form of yellow Canaries

iron saffron
#

They're his personal entourage/bodyguards. That's up to him (aka the DM).

covert island
#

When he is in disguise that is

short peak
#

Okay, so if he weny to fight, he have his dragon friend, that made him really powerful

iron saffron
#

Bahamut has an entourage of seven ancient gold dragons.

feral lintel
#

All in the shapes of canaries

iron saffron
#

How he uses them on a case-by-case basis is not really in the scope of this channel.

toxic belfry
#

Are those gold dragons alive or are they the strongest ones he absorbed into his realm, like could you banish them back to the upper planes?

iron saffron
#

Again, the seven ancient dragons are Bahamut's personal entourage/bodyguards. He didn't/doesn't absorb them.

#

The banishing question isn't really a lore question.

jagged apex
#

and from what i am aware they are largely there in a non combative role, such as counseling him or healing those he wishes to test in combat, should the King of the Good Dragons get just a tad carried away in the heat of the moment

pallid flower
#

What does the Sora mean in the name Sora Kell?

jagged apex
#

seems nothing indicates it nessissarily means anything, is simply the name of an individual

pallid flower
#

Found it, it’s Goblin for grandmother/elder

hearty aspen
#

Can anyone here explain the difference between Mystra, Midnight and Mystryl?

grim siren
#

Sure Mystryl was the original Goddess of Magic in the Realms. In the final days of the Empire of Netheril the Arch Mage Karsus attempted a spell that would make himself a god. In casting the spell he absorbed Mystryl and she lost control over the Weave and all magic ceased functioning. The power overwhelms Karsus and he died. But the magic shutting down is important as the Netherese mostly lived in floating magic cities.

After the literal fall of Netheril. Mystryl a peasant Netherese Girl absorbed the errant weave and saved three cities and thousands of people. With this divine spark she ascended and took Mystryl's place as the goddess of magic. This peasant girl became known as Mystra.

Roughly 1600 years later in the year 1358 the divine order known as the Tablets of Fate were stolen from the god of gods. For this infighting he cast all gods to Toril. These Times of Troubles meant that most gods were mortal. Including Mystra.

For seeing the coming mortality Mystra entrusted some of her power to a worshipper of hers. Midnight of the Dales. Mystra was then captured by evil gods wanting her powers.

She was freed by Midnight, a knight named Kelemvor, a rogue named Cyric and a cleric named Adon. Mystra possessed a young girl who helped the heroes and took the power back from midnight. At this point Mystra is tired of this mortality crap and goes to speak to the god of gods. But she is stopped by the god Helm who kept his divinity specifically to stop other gods from getting back into power. When Mystra attacked him to be let through, Helm just killed her.

After the Time of Troubles a new God of magic was required. The god of gods offered the position to Midnight who accepted and took the name Mystra.

#

TLDR

MYSTRYL: Original
MYSTRA: Version 2
MYSTRA (Midnight): Version 3

#

The Mystra talked about in BG3 is midnight.

raven marsh
#

In the Forgottem Reams campaign setting (at least in older editions) elves referred to themselves as Tel'Quessir in their own language. Does anyone know of a dwarven name for dwarves (either in FR or other D&D material)? In Tolkein's work, they call themselves Khazâd, and I thought I remembered FR using a similar term.

quiet kelp
#

What's the name of the famous Dark Elf with a panther companion?

feral lintel
#

Drizzt

feral lintel
quiet kelp
#

Is he still around in the current DnD timeline?

feral lintel
#

To my knowledge, he's still kicking

sharp owl
quiet kelp
#

Coolio.

feral lintel
#

Hes onl 99 years older than a newly adult elf (Culturally)

serene crater
#

Quick question. But is it possible for illithids to infect extraplanar creatures?

#

(I know certain abberations can be but unsure with celestial, fiend or fey)

eager bay
#

Is Zargon the Returner originally from the far realm? Because if not it's weird he makes gibbering mouthers

dry tusk
serene crater
dry tusk
#

If you want an illithid colony that's main source of new members is making a cult summon demons/devils/etc go for it

unkempt merlin
#

They are still flesh (most of the time anyway)

dry tusk
#

Oh I see. I was under the impression they were only really like that in their home plane.

jagged apex
#

in some cases it is believed he is an ancient baatorian, having ruled the plane of baator aka the nine heads, before asmodeus set up shop

jagged apex
jagged apex
thorny hound
#

is there like a "half-fey" race?

jagged apex
#

and elder evil with sufficient magical power could very reasonable turn a being into a gibbering mouther and have nothing to do with the far realm

jagged apex
thorny hound
#

fair point

jagged apex
#

from what i could find there historically in past editions have been things like a half-fey template, but that is more mechanics

#

and most known fey esc half-breeds i am aware of are specifically of elves with are descendant from fey but are not always fey proper

#

and from what i can find the half-fey template i am not sure where that is from in terms of source, i just know it does not seem to be something documented on the forgotten realms wiki

thorny hound
#

ye that is what I was afraid of

jagged apex
#

and seems all the info on forgotten realms help is just mechanics, nothing lore wise, so i'd wager they are similar to half-dragons to where they are not a race or species proper, merely a classification of a creature that is half-fey and something that is also half-non-fey, but that is just an educated guess based on what i could find

#

honestly fey is pretty broad in general, being half-fey i imagine is even more so

teal rock
#

Where exactly are plasmoids from? Where would you even find a plasmoid settlement?

agile patio
jagged apex
#

other than that to my knowledge nothing specific is detailed in either their 2e or 5e incarnations, though i could be wrong

thorny hound
#

can Clerics be of other domains that their deity doesn't possess occupies? whatever the proper word for it is?
for example can there be a Tempest Cleric of Selune?

feral lintel
#

Selune has Knowledge, Twilight, and Life

unkempt merlin
thorny hound
#

what's the long answer? actually short answer is enough

crude blaze
tardy wasp
storm dagger
#

But long lived devils and occult scholars theorize Zargon was an invader from another plane or reality

feral zephyr
#

Who has any adventures to share ( I need ideas for lore I’m too lazy rn)

feral lintel
feral zephyr
#

This is literally lore

feral lintel
#

this is for official published lore

feral zephyr
#

I’ll take that too

covert island
#

This is a channel to discuss the official Lore presented in D&D. If you want to read what players have been up to #tales-from-the-table would be the place. If you want to discuss officially released adventures #adventures-spoilers-archive has threads to the different adventures.

crude blaze
feral zephyr
#

I domt haev access

past verge
#

Did Ao create the entire multiverse including the inner and outer planes or just the prime material plane? [FR]

flint owl
#

Hello D&D lore considerers, I had a question posed to me by a coworker and figured I would ask the experts: Do unicorns in D&D neigh?

#

looking for instances in text, media, and/or really good arguments

modest badger
#

👅

covert island
#

The Ancient lore

alpine musk
#

I would say unicorns could neigh if they so choose to like you and I could, in an imitation of a horse, but naturally they probably communicate through different means. Their listed languages include Celestial, Elvish, and Sylvan so, much like other creatures with multiple languages, they usually communicate in the same language as those around them/whatever they're most comfortable with. While they resemble a horse, they're not actually related to one.

flint owl
#

ooooh I do like that argument

flint owl
formal elbow
#

Heya! I've got a question for any older DM's or even deep lore people: I've been researching a very specific part of Harper lore in the forgotten realms: "A Harper's Companion". Now, I can find everything just well on google/wikis, but they don't tell me anything about what the songs from the III'rd volume of these books contain. You might think that's a little on the nose, but I like staying true to the lore lol... Is there any piece of obscure lore containing any information on even one of the 7 songs from this songbook ?

feral lintel
#

Any gods of the beggars or downtrodden?

formal elbow
verbal barn
#

are the events of BG3 canon to the forgotten realms lore?

cinder cloud
cinder cloud
cinder cloud
jagged apex
jagged apex
#

otherwise it kind of varies and is unknown, with him simply being credited for the deed, but just would not make sense if he did create the whole multiverse or the prime material plane as his power is restricted to realmspace, one specific part of the prime material plane

formal elbow
grim siren
#

I know the book The Code of the Harpers from 2e has songs in the back. You can get it in DMsGUILD

neon roost
#

I've got a lore question thats kinda so broad and nonspecific that googling it for the answer is extremely unhelpful as i get all the more specific answers too

#

A long time ago and on a different server I ended up in a debate about lore that I'm almost certain I was right about but didn't know for certain

#

It is

#

[forgotten realms] Given the medieval(ish) basis for the forgotten realms setting. Is it socially acceptable for people to marry off their teenage children (as was commonplace for much of human history)?

#

In that debate I said no because in most of the lore I've read, the societal norms of right and wrong in the forgotten realms seem more modern than medieval.

#

Its a weird thing but I know some of the older lore books went super in detail on rather mundane aspects of the forgotten realms setting that were unrelated to regular play

#

And then by extension, the question went to, "elves take what, a century to be full sized adults, how would it extend to them? Is a 68 year old elf considered a child?"

modest badger
# neon roost And then by extension, the question went to, "elves take what, a century to be f...

I'd be very careful on this topic as it touches upon discussions highly inappropriate for the server.

However note that elves are physically and mentally mature in early 20s and will be in relationships after such. The century mark is a cultural milestone for counting as an adult. Compare to say being mature around 18-20, including potentially being married and with kids, but not really considered a true adult yet in some places. Some older edition texts went into how marriage was unusual for younger elves as it was a large commitment for along lived species.

My suggestion for this topic is to look on older forums. People have asked similar questions: http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9088
But now putting mod hat on to say: That this conversation should end here before some folk decide to get too deep into the justifications, ethics and examples of minors marrying.

Apologies if that makes it seem like I'll give my answer but allow no other. Rather I intend to give some aid into looking into this yourself, but cannot risk this conversation continuing.

formal elbow
#

i'll go check it out

past verge
#

The FR "afterlife" and "faithless" article claim that all faithless souls "become a part of the wall that surrounded the city".

Rather than wander the Fugue Plane until called by their patron deity or their servant, the souls of the Faithful and the False were compelled to go into the City of Judgment, where they were judged by Kelemvor. The Faithless received only one sentence: the Wall of the Faithless.
-The faithless article on FR fandom

However, the Asmodeus article claim that they instead get send to the ninth layer of baathor to be consumed by him.

To be specific, it was not mere atheists who he wanted, but those who believed in nothing, no form of divinity, afterlife, or even a reason to continue existing. Souls who died in this state did not become normal petitioners, instead reforming in Nessus regardless of alignment to be excruciatingly consumed by Asmodeus
-The Asmodeus article on FR fandom

Can someone clear this up for me? dndThink

sharp owl
#

The Wall of the Faithless has been retconned out of lore

cinder cloud
past verge
past verge
sharp owl
#

I don't know, I just know that they no longer get interred int he wall

grim siren
# past verge I see. I guess the sources references in the article are old so that kinda makes...

The Wall of the Faithless was erected by Myrkul to punish the souls of beings who claimed no patron god. His successor Cyric kept the Wall erected largely out of malice and sadism, never questioning its existence as long as it served as a means to issue torment and suffering. With Cyric's fall, Kelemvor ascended to the portfolio of the dead and struck down the Wall alongside a myriad of other changes to the Fugue Plane, intending to enact a more "fair" accounting of the Faithless. Following Kelemvor's abandonment of his humanity after it was determined he had overstepped his bounds, it is believed that the Wall was not restored in spite of this. During the events surrounding the rise of the Cult of the Absolute in the Year of Three Ships Sailing, 1492 DR, An "Arbiter of Certain Matters." stated that the Faithless are instead condemned to wander the Fugue Plane eternally.

#

Also contrary to many assumptions when the Wall of the Faithless was around getting around it at least in Kelemvor's time was shockingly easy.

it was not a thing were you had to be devout to a god. If you simply acknowledged the Gods existence and participated in the world with them there was a high likelihood that a servitor of some god would pick you up. One example cited often by Ed Greenwood is giving Tymora, the Lady of Luck thanks if you narrow avoided a trap or were rewarded with good fortunes would most likely be enough.

The Ethics and moral standing of the wall is explored with tact in Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betraryer and you even get to interrogate Kelemvor about it himself.

warm fern
#

Thinking of making a dhampir blood domain cleric, are there any gods associated with vampirism, undead, or blood?

unkempt merlin
#

Setting?

warm fern
#

Faerun

cinder cloud
eager bay
#

Are there undiscovered planes in D&D?

crude blaze
#

There are nigh-endless domains of dread in Ravenloft

eager bay
feral lintel
#

If they're undiscovered, they wouldn't be written down or recorded

eager bay
#

Also, are the planes attatched to ebberon actual planes or just demiplanes?

cinder cloud
eager bay
cinder cloud
#

They are (typically) finite in size, if that's what you mean, but they are in fact planes

jagged apex
#

demiplanes are limited in size and complexity by the being that created them, which is often why they are finite unlike proper planes, they can still be rather large in scale but are still finite

eager bay
#

Yeah no I meant undiscovered like, full planes

unkempt merlin
#

A demiplane is still a full plane, even if its small

#

The nature of a demiplane is generally more with its creation

unkempt merlin
feral lintel
cinder cloud
#

There's no such thing as a "full plane" per se. Some planes are infinite but even finite planes can have infinite parts (i.e. sigil is finite but the spire at its center is infinite)

unkempt merlin
#

If the only way you try to define "full plane" is by size it gets messy quickly

cinder cloud
#

But the answer to your question only Ao knows. We only know what the lore says.

#

(Or whatever overgod rules your particular setting, if at all)

eager bay
feral lintel
#

Yes

cinder cloud
#

Yes, in a manner of speaking. In theory any plane can be extended infinitely by a powerful enough entity.

feral lintel
#

Planes are also just wildly different from each other, each one is basically its own world

cinder cloud
#

Yep. Across the editions the designers can't even agree on how the cosmology and order of the planes actually works. Great wheel vs world tree, raven loft is a demiplane vs part of the Shadowfell, etc. It changes and things get disrupted or created or destroyed or just plain messy.

feral lintel
#

Neither can the in-world researchers and scholars

jagged apex
#

well in 5e cosmology, the domains of dread, ravenloft being but one of them, are located in the shadowfell, is sort of a seperate territory for lack of a better word

#

some things have suggest that there could be other planes that are just unknown, but i am not sure how canon those are viewed in the published lore if at all, eberron has the caviot of being a self contained cosmology, presumably is why it has it's own planes unique to it

eager bay
#

Well, more like everyones canon is equally right and justified

feral lintel
#

What exactly are you trying to figure out? General question

eager bay
#

That last part was more me just sort of bringing up what was recently said in regards to canonization in D&D

#

But yeah, I'm making my own setting and so my autism wanted to have the fact that my canon is still canon validated, even though if it wasn't I probably wouldn't have changed my mind on anything

jagged apex
#

by canon i mean the published lore that is used by wizards of the coast and in their products

jagged apex
eager bay
jagged apex
#

yeah i know that, but this channel is literally for talk regarding the published continuity your own games are your own thing and more so a thing for talk in #dm-world-building

#

especially if you are making your own setting

eager bay
#

And what I mean by that is that the published canon is the marvel movies, and every D&D game is basically the WHAT IF? marvel show

eager bay
jagged apex
#

that makes no sense

eager bay
#

But all games are canon

#

There's the main reality, then there's all the branches

#

Like, it's basic many worlds dude

jagged apex
#

the published materials cover the official continuity by wizards of the coast stuff, the base line and what is true for the publication of the ip's established settings, there is a main continuity the published one, each individual game and table is it's own but not nessissarily apart of that continuity

#

published lore is talked about here, anything that is not in published material is specific to your own games or homebrew settings, that is not what this channel is for

eager bay
opal cedar
#

Can people ask questions about lore here?

jagged apex
#

you can deviate from the published canon, but that does not change what is what in the published continuity

#

yes, published lore

eager bay
#

I was explaining that ANY canon is as justified and real as the official D&D canon, as said by the creators of D&D. Because what you had originally said made me concerned new DMs may get the wrong impression of what counts as canon in D&D

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

but this channel is specifically for the published continuity ie that published and used by wizards of the coast

eager bay
jagged apex
#

literally never suggest that

eager bay
jagged apex
#

unless you take having an established default lore that everyone can use or not use as they wish as being something that counts as such, but that does not really sound rigid to me

eager bay
#

And tbc, I am not saying I was trying to start a whole thing

#

My original goal had just been to leave a single message stating all canons are valid

jagged apex
#

heck most people i have heard that start dming, new ones especially, make up their own lore anyways rather than using the published lore for existing settings

eager bay
#

Just in case someone had misunderstood you, as I was worried they might end up doing. That was my only goal

jagged apex
#

a detail that the 5e ravenloft sourcebook reinvorced last i checked

eager bay
jagged apex
#

if anyone got the impression for some reason, i trust they would state their confusion and either i or one of the many other people here would have clerified

#

as i don't see anyone getting that impression especially these days if they were new to dming or dnd in general

eager bay
opal cedar
#

Okay So if anyone is able to answer ,
and if this question is a good one or not
Is the elemental plane of earth the best place to mine materials from or with the sub elemental plane of magma be the best
Or wood the elements of plane of fire

eager bay
jagged apex
#

earlier when i used the term canon to refer to statements about how there could be unknown planes of existence in the dnd multiverse i ment "how official they are considered by wizards of the coast in relation to their published continuity" cuz you got cases like mtg cross over adventures that were put out for free, that make that concept a bit messy

eager bay
#

Magma would be impossible to dig through reliably or safely

#

And the elemental plane of fire is mostly, well, fire

#

Tbc, there are issues with any of those options

jagged apex
#

in a, far as we know infinite, plane of elemental earth, there is no shortage of minerals and ores, precious metals and other valuable materials included

eager bay
#

And I say that from experience

jagged apex
#

heck, to my knowledge people setting up mining operations in the elemental plane of earth, though temporarily, is a known thing in the lore

eager bay
jagged apex
eager bay
#

So again, I wasn't trying to argue, I was trying to toss out a life preserver to any poor DM whose player uses the D&D lore channel to tell them how to run their game

opal cedar
#

The reason why i'm asking is because i'm thinking about making a magic item
That's basically a crucible
That produces Earth from the elemental plane of Earth but turns into molten magma inside the crucible.But it's the job of tperson to sift and take out the separate materials by themselves I was trying to find and figure out how much percentile the materials would be if there were trying to get metals And such

jagged apex
#

though the natives of the elemental plane of earth, the dao especially, tend to get mad at us mortals stealing their stuff, as to them it is either in some cases like the dao, theirs in their minds, and depending on others could be more like their children or a natural resource needed to live

eager bay
#

When things turn to magma, they melt

jagged apex
eager bay
#

Not just metals, but everything aside from some minerals

#

Like diamonds. Those wouldn't melt that easily

#

So you can't really sift out metal, when it's gonna be part of the liquid

jagged apex
#

yeah, like the ones you could harness from the tarrasque's carrapise, as i recall you gotta use acid for that

#

and probably powerful acid at that

eager bay
#

Now, you could repeatedly cook the stuff rather than making it into magma

#

Or you could do normal sifting

#

But sifting magma isn't gonna do much

opal cedar
#

That's fair
I was trying to keep the crucible volcano themed , but maybe it could just be a situation where It could just be different

jagged apex
eager bay
#

You could have it be two items

jagged apex
#

honestly this sounds more like a question for your dm or something for #homebrew

opal cedar
opal cedar
# jagged apex honestly this sounds more like a question for your dm or something for <#5405883...

The main thing I was trying to hit towards was the material ratio.If you were to scoop from the elemental plane of earth continuously because if you were to have a gate open
And a drill And you were to continuously drill what Would the ratio of materials like the percentiles of your harvest Is from you drilling Because from what I know the olympear has no gravity.So nothing is heavier or lighter than anything , so it doesn't sink down So it's just as random as spread out as minecraft

jagged apex
#

that is not really something the published lore would tell you, at least far as i am aware, especially when it sounds like what you are trying to create is not an existing magical item in the lore

#

olympear? idk what that is

jagged apex
#

so if you are doing that sort of thing, definitely gunna wanna make sure that drill and what other equipment you are using is well built, so you know the gravity does not cause it to be crushed or broken by it's own weight, which would be double in comparison to presumably the prime material plane

vestal creek
#

Can someone explain the schools of magic to me? Like what's the difference between them? Like abjuration, transmutation, evocation, etc etc

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Why false life is necromancy and not abjuration ya know?

forest remnant
jagged apex
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as to why it is currently necromancy, is likely do to the manipulation of life and death, the energies of the soul

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though in the 2024 books some of these spells will be reclassified yet again

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so it may not remain such a spell, gunna have to wait and see what the updated materials say

forest remnant
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Abjuration is a school about disruptive spells like forcefields necromancy is the magic of souls and the mockery of life false life is a necromancy spell because you are bolstering yourself with tainted soul magic

forest remnant
jagged apex
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the necromancy in the phb currently reads "spells manipulate the energies of life and death. Such spells can grant an extra reserve of life force, drain the life energy from another creature, create the undead, or even bring the dead back to life."

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where as abjuration is described as "spells are protective in nature, though some of them have aggressive uses. They create magical barriers, negate harmful effects, harm trespassers, or banish creatures to other planes of existence."

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with the false life spell, it is pretty straight forward, at least to me, given the first few words of the spell describe the effect "Bolstering yourself with a necromantic facsimile of life"

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you are manipulating necromantic energy to empower yourself, at least take an extra bit of hurt, pretty necromantic if you ask me

mystic vortex
jagged apex
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just cuz the majority of such effects happen to be rather destructive, does not mean they all are

mystic vortex
sharp owl
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Spell schools are a game-mechanic and not intrinsically diegetic

jagged apex
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sometimes the verbage of the description used in the spell make it clearer as to what kind form of magic, wish has had a number of classifications over the years, mainly in older editions https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wish

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but seems most often it is association with summoning and conjuration, else not sure if there is a lore reason for it's current classification, is such a all encompassing spell, one could make several arguments probably for what it should be classified as, also yeah, like davyd said such things are not always diegetic

livid mantle
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I understand it isnt supposed to be accurate, but why is hecate chaotic evil if anyone could know the reason? She appears to have been such since way back in 2e but i am more confused why it is still the same as to me it doesnt seem she would be chaotic evil?

humble moon
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Takes pleasure in torture and killing so firmly evil IMO

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But the chaotic part seems more iffy

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It seems she's capricious, swinging from lawful to chaotic on a whim, according to the Forgotten Realms wiki

livid mantle
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Yeah thats fair, i mean with the greek pantheon im overly critical because i know a fair bit about the mythology (thought mythology on hecate is lacking compared to my other greek gods so idk what is too innacurate and was wondering why she is CE)

humble moon
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Swingy with mortals and will torture and kill for failing her, so yeah IMO CE is justifiable on her

livid mantle
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Yeah suppose but then that puts into question hera’s alignment

polar forum
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Hera is at BEST Chaotic Neutral, she's done alot of arguably evil crap

jagged apex
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ie, just cuz the real world mythology says one thing, does not mean that applies to dnd's version

jagged apex
# polar forum Hera is at BEST Chaotic Neutral, she's done alot of arguably evil crap

well she does not seem to have a page on the forgotten realms wiki, just having a listing and brief description on the page for the olympian pantheon, but she is cited as being described in "Deities and Demigods" (Wizards of the Coast), on page 120. , the forgotten realms wiki simply noting her as "The Olympian goddess of marriage and the wife of Zeus.", if her alignment is something detailed you'd probably have to check that cited source

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but keep in mind, even if they are based on real world mythologies and pantheons, the versions in dnd are NOT ment to be one to one with their real world counterparts

unkempt merlin
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Except when they are, such as with the Mulhorandi pantheon

jagged apex
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point is, don't assume the real world mythology to necessarily apply to dnd's version, at least when looking at them as they are presented in published materials

cinder cloud
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Eh. I think it's pretty safe to assume "D&D Zeus" is the same as the one in real world mythology. There might be some major differences (see Tyr from the Norse pantheon vs Tyr in the Forgotten Realms) but I would say historical trumps anything written in a D&D book, if we're strictly talking lore and importing historical pantheons.

jagged apex
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not talking about importing, these fantastical versions of real world historical pantheons are pre-existing in dnd lore, especially at this point

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if it is the same or similar to the source material, it will say so by being described identically, but is better to not go in expecting it to be like the real world counterpart, cuz there are several cases across dnd's history where there are major notable differences, sometimes small things, but winds up changing a lot of things one might assume

jagged apex
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zeus in dnd is true neutral in published materials, and granted he does have a somewhat similar history and a history of affairs, but there are differences, far as i can tell, but i am no expert in greek myth, but does seem to stetch the bounds of "true netural", so he is kind of a weird example i'd say

crude blaze
# cinder cloud Eh. I think it's pretty safe to assume "D&D Zeus" is the same as the one in real...

That’s not really how I’d interpret this description of “Fantasy-Historical Pantheons” in the PHB:

The Celtic, Egyptian, Greek, and Norse pantheons are fantasy interpretations of historical religions from our world’s ancient times. They include deities that are most appropriate for use in a D&D game, divorced from their historical context in the real world and united into pantheons that serve the needs of the game.

jagged apex
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and seems in past editions when not true netural, he is listed as chaotic good

cinder cloud
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OP seemed to be talking about the historical version of those deities vs what is described in D&D.

crude blaze
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They’re like “pop culture” adaptations of the gods

jagged apex
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interpretations being one of the key words, which is why i reffer to their real world counterparts as source material, and the dnd itterations as being inspired by them

jagged apex
crude blaze
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Exactly. I was about to mention Thor and Loki, who are adopted brothers in Marvel, while Loki is Odin’s brother in the historical pantheon.

jagged apex
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so that detail they lean more towards the source it seems

cinder cloud
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Right, and if we're comparing those versions to historical pantheons, the historical versions are the "correct" ones, that's all I'm saying.

jagged apex
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wrong

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in the terms of dnd's lore, the ones in dnd published materials are the "correct ones"

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be they similar or different to their source material

crude blaze
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The passage I just posted literally says they’re intended to be divorced from their historical context in the real world

cinder cloud
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Maybe at your table?

cinder cloud
jagged apex
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we are talking about in the published lore of dnd materials from wizards of the coast, at least i am and have been

cinder cloud
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OP didn't appear to be.

jagged apex
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not talking about any one individual's game, table, ect...

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who is OP? i don't see anyone in recent talk on the matter in this channel with that as even part of their name

cinder cloud
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They appeared to question the assignment of alignment, using the historical version as a basis.

jagged apex
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well using the historical version to judge the dnd version is a flawed process to begin with

crude blaze
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Yeah, I think our conversation has moved beyond the original question. Some convos evolve into different ones.

jagged apex
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is like looking at the comics when evaluating thanos beating the hulk into submission in the mcu

cinder cloud
crude blaze
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OP seems to have gotten their answer and moved on, but that doesn’t mean the convo can’t continue.

feral lintel
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Tyr being the prime example

jagged apex
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well hecate is olympian, not norse

crude blaze
jagged apex
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but still your point stands

feral lintel
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oh, this was a somewhat off topic comment, didnt realize Hecate was the topic at hand

jagged apex
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at least was what the converstations started off being centered around

feral lintel
cinder cloud
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OP was asking about alignment for certain real world analogues

feral lintel
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Do the crow and dragon at the ends of the world tree still exist actually?

jagged apex
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kind of went broader as it diverted from that question, which as reg said, star seemed to have moved on after getting their answer, the rest of us kind of going on a tangent

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not sure about crows, but i know nidhogg exists in dnd lore

feral lintel
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wait i dont think it was a crow, it was a rooster or eagle

jagged apex
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in the forgotten realms, that being the name that Dendar the night serpent is known by to the ancient Rus

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not sure we are ever told who this ancient people, the Rus, are but they are the ones that reffer to dendar as nidhogg

feral lintel
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ic ic

crude blaze
crude blaze
cinder cloud
feral lintel
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for this channel we assume whats been written in official publishing and material

jagged apex
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you can, but is not nessissarily gunna be accurate when reffering to them as presented in published materials

cinder cloud
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... For those settings

feral lintel
jagged apex
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which is what talk for this channel is about, even established settings, they have published lore

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which remains the same until altered by the writers of said materials at wizards of the coast and released in official published materials

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just like the published lore does not affect your games, your games and your preferences do not effect the published lore

cinder cloud
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I'm aware of what this channel is for. I just don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.

feral lintel
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i dont see how its relevant for this channel

jagged apex
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just cuz you CAN apply something does not mean it is appropriate to do so

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as mentioned, some patheons, characters, and such differ in dnd than they do the source material, so to judge them based on that source material, where they are free to take their liberties and diviate from that source, is a flawed proccess if trying to be objective

crude blaze
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Maybe it’s time to just move on from this convo, feels like we’ve been talking in circles for a bit.

jagged apex
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if it lines up, it lines up, but this is not always gunna be the case

cinder cloud
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OP was asking why the D&D version of a god had an alignment that seemed to differ from the real world version. It was applicable.

jagged apex
shadow linden
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is there any full reading order chart/guide?

feral lintel
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Reading order/chart?

shadow linden
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sorry for my bad usage of language, english is not my native language sir

cinder cloud
serene crater
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Quick qiestion (I don't mind moving this to another chat if it doesn't seem lore esk), but after looking into Venger's lore, I was considering of bringing him to the Forgotten Realms as part of my current campaign and I wanted to ask if there would be any deities/patrons that would fit in place of who he struck a deal with for power. The only thing I can find for it is that the nameless one (his og patron) just went to other worlds and conquered them.

civic crystal
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What extent of power and control does one hold if they learn a devil’s true name? And from what setting does it apply?

cinder cloud
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The whole shtick with his patron was that he was a manipulative entity that acted like a puppetmaster, providing Venger with power and corrupting him. There's no reason you can't just invent "The Nameless One" and keep him entirely mysterious, not unlike the dark powers of Ravenloft or Ao.

serene crater
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I mean fair

cinder cloud
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As for analogues, any of the elder gods/elder evils could be supplanted, or a demon prince or devil, or a goddess of mystery and evil like Shar.

cinder cloud
civic crystal
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Don’t they like, gain full control over them?

cinder cloud
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For infernal calling and other spells it just gives you advantage on your check

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The spell does the rest of the work

serene crater
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lorewise a devils true name does give the caller power over them to a degree. The devil is bound to serve whoever knows it's name, but it is disgruntled serving this way and may try to scheme against them

civic crystal
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Is that in all settings?

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I’m in Eberron

serene crater
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not sure in regards to eberron, but I believe it is noted in the monster manual, as well as forgotten realms lore

jagged apex
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eberron is a selfcontained cosmology, thus many things that apply to most dnd settings at times do not apply to eberron

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especially things like fiends

cinder cloud
serene crater
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indeed

jagged apex
serene crater
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demons are funny enough similar, though they'll try to kill you when they get the chance

cinder cloud
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However, it appears to differ from other forms of true name magic in settings like the Realms. (The article is also painfully short.)

jagged apex
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also, must frusterate Mephistopheles, that despite wanting to overthrow asmodeus, in addition to many of his cults confusing the two of them, mephistopheles' true name is known, at least according to the one used in the novels, but asmodeus' remains largely hidden with only the deepest of lore nerds knowing, as to my knowledge, nobody really knows in universe, save for two beings, one of who is asmodeus and the other who also has no reason to tell

serene crater
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wait, who's the other

jagged apex
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also, seems the ones that might be able to provide some degree of insight into eberron true name magic with the creatures noted to use true name magic in the setting

jagged apex
serene crater
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ah. the other serpent

jagged apex
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literally it is the same source for asmodeus' supposid true name

serene crater
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for a moment I thought this was Vecna, being the master of secrets and all. That and apparantly they're buddies

jagged apex
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i say supposed, cuz technically we don't know which origin, if any, is true, nor do all other beings in the multiverse, save the two, and asmodeus has shrouded in so much uncertainty, the most agreed apon one in universe, is the one that makes no mention of serpents or true names