#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 56 of 1

iron saffron
#

I recommend you read the FR wiki article.

eager bay
#

Okay, there are several elder Brain’s. But they also say “The Elder Brain” is there one even bigger one or is it a thing of their being one per realm or city or something?

iron saffron
#

Think of them like a queen of a bee colony. There's only one per colony.

eager bay
#

Oooh

#

Okay

#

That makes sense

#

How does an outcast mindflayer work, just like, mindflayers can be compared directly to wasps and outcast ones are like solitary species of wasps?

modest badger
#

Mindflayers are hivemind. Outcast and renegade mindflayers are not part of a hivemind, and often fear being discovered and/or being dragged back into the hivemind and loosing their individuality.

#

Often they are outcast for said individuality- for having tics and traits inherited from their host, or just too much willfull independency that makes them danger to a colony's unity.

eager bay
#

Sorry if my questions are getting annoying

eager bay
modest badger
#

I wouldn't say 'kicked' so much as those are the same options- submit, die or flee.

eager bay
#

…would players ever be allowed inside a mindflayer city peacefully?

serene crater
#

most times no, as they're seen as a threat to a colony

iron saffron
#

PCs would be considered food and/or threat to mind flayers.

serene crater
#

most if not almost all living things view mind flayers akin to a virus. Rare exceptions include renegades

eager bay
#

Renegades?

iron saffron
#

Rebel. Outcast.

modest badger
#

Renegade Illithids:

Sometimes a mind flayer that's away from its colony breaks free from the elder brain. Perhaps it ran into a situation where its bonds of obedience were broken, or perhaps the colony was destroyed while it was away. In such a case, the mind flayer becomes free-willed for as long as it avoids contact with an elder brain.

  • Volo's guide to Monsters p.72
#

Ooop, careful of potential module spoilers.

#

(and BG3 spoilers)

eager bay
#

And these mindflayers act like people or?

serene crater
#

I didn't think it was spoilers as he was in mtg as well as a figure of waterdeep, though my mistake

modest badger
#

Unlike colonial mind flayers, rogue illithids develop a healthy respect for those not of their kind. They treat especially powerful creatures and individuals as equals, not adversaries, and seek to cooperate with them. A renegade mind flayer might become a trusted advisor or a powerful ally, so long as it is kept well fed

  • Volo's guide to Monsters p.72
eager bay
#

Or can they eat other things?

iron saffron
#

Brains.

serene crater
#

the irony is renegade mind flayers drop the whole supremacy belief and actually can be good acquaintances with other people

eager bay
#

Or like, would they be fine with like… cow and pig?

iron saffron
#

Preferably.

eager bay
modest badger
#

They require humanoid brains.
I remember one Dungeon Magazine module exploring 'lab grown brains' (clones). But it didn't work- they needed to consume the brains of humanoids that have had experiences and thoughts. There was no nutritional psychic value to them otherwise.

serene crater
iron saffron
# eager bay Or like, would they be fine with like… cow and pig?

I recommned you read the FR wiki article:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_flayer#Diet

The sustenance of mind flayers were the brains of other creatures, mainly those of humanoids. Only brain tissue provided the required combination of the three essential components needed to sustain the mind flayer physiology: hormones, enzymes, and psychic energy. Mind flayers also ate other foods[18] (in addition to requiring water), most of which contained the critical enzymes and hormones they needed, with internal organs being good sources and high on the illithid menu.

While certain essential biochemicals and hormones could only be found in brain matter, illithids ate brains more so for the psychic quotient of sentient gray matter than the physical nutrients.[59] Their all-encompassing neurology granted them a unique digestive system, one that was, in a sense, cognitive and self-aware, allowing them to extract more than nourishment from their food

eager bay
#

Wait, how do you inject your memories into clones? Would that count for a mindflayer?

eager bay
#

Respect doesn’t mean they have a to be a good person right?

iron saffron
#

Respect has nothing to do with morality.

eager bay
#

Like, could I have one be a leader of a branch of a criminal empire?

iron saffron
#

This is moving out of lore territory.

eager bay
#

They’re empaths lol

iron saffron
#

They're not empaths, they're psionicists.

modest badger
#

This is indeed beginning to move into 'speculative' questions that would be better for #dm-discussion (if planning on how to use this in a campaign plot somehow) or #dm-world-building if just wanting to figure out how to make the idea work as part of a general world lore. Or just #dnd-discussion if spitballing ideas in general on how Mindflayers can be as ethical as possible in their diets or manage criminal empires

iron saffron
#

Mind flayers are aberrations originally from the Far Realm (think Cthulhu). Their minds and brains are literally alien to mortals of the Material World. They don't empatheize with humanity.

eager bay
#

Okay… but is vecna actually a Demi-god or just like referred to as one and how long was he a lich before he ascended?

iron saffron
eager bay
#

I might be dumb, but i don’t think it says anything about how he ascended

pale turtle
#

Are the Vistani able to come and go through the mists as they please? Also, what are the effects of one that doesn't travel constantly?

serene crater
eager bay
#

Oh okay

serene crater
eager bay
#

What creatures does vecna canonically have in his armies?

#

Like, it says under Oni’s that they’ll severe masters in exchange for food and magic, white dragons will faithfully serve a master who has bested them in 1 on 1 combat, manticores serve masters as long as they don’t forget to feed them,

#

And like, clearly he has lots of undead but it implies a lot of them are not also

serene crater
#

I'd assume mostly cultists or undead as you noted, as he's mostly trying to work in secret rather than conquer through a typical army. Though it's been noted he's worked with devils before as Asmodeus takes a liking to him

calm crest
#

Vecna has been known to utilize unique constructs as well.

iron saffron
#

AFAIK, Vecna doesn't have an army. He's the god of secrets after all and an arch-lich who rather deal with research of magic than leading a horde of undead.

jagged apex
#

like any other god, he more so has favored creatures that he uses to carry out his will, very few gods have a formal army of any sort, only one i know of is tiamat

#

some of the lore documented on the forgotten realms wiki seems to imply he made use of devils

jagged apex
#

honestly, given he is a powerful lich and god, given he conducts himself still very much like a wizard, any evil creature that could be swayed under his control would likely fit the bill especially if they are associated with one of his domains, but unlike some gods does not seem he has a list of favored creatures or monsters

hoary pewter
#

Thx

quiet dove
#

is there a color of metallic dragon that dwell in forests/swamps or are rather inclined with nature?

serene crater
shadow haven
#

I'm Dming a spelljammer campaign and my party started in realm space(Toril to he specific) but is heading out soon. I wanted to ask, what planetary systems have higher technology level(IE things like advanced firearms, genuine technology/industry?)

iron saffron
#

No official campaign setting has modern firearms. Critical Role's Exandria has firearms but it's on the early stages. Toril has smokepowder that's tightly controlled by the church of Gond.

#

There are infinite number of systems in the Material Plane so you can create a world with advanced technology you want but this is #dm-discussion or #dm-world-building territory.

#

D&D has had "cameo" with advanced technologies, such as the crashed city-sized UFO in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks so that's the extent of it because D&D is focus on "medieval" level of technology.

reef harness
#

Speaking about firearms, do you think a monk would be able to deflect bullets?

feral lintel
#

Not really a lore question

iron saffron
reef harness
#

I see

#

Just askin' here in case there was any material that specified their speed

#

It wasn't for a campaign

iron saffron
#

Again, gameplay mechanic issue.

feral lintel
#

(And trying to add actual "realism" and physics to a game would not be the best)

reef harness
#

Alright, thanks

shadow haven
unkempt merlin
#

(They (and most dnd settings) are more Renaissance than medieval)

iron saffron
#

Technically lore-wise Earth exists in the D&D multiverse. Humans from (an alternate) Earth travelled to Toril, for example.

feral lintel
#

Elminster regularly takes a pack of Dr. Pepper from time to time to his abode

#

God i love that tidbit of lore

shadow haven
iron saffron
plucky brook
#

Chinese people?

iron saffron
#

Ancient Egyptians.

feral lintel
#

... NGL, that name has been confusing me since i first read about them in the PHB

iron saffron
#

Mulan is the name of the human ethnicity on Toril, not the Chinese heroine.

feral lintel
#

Yeah, but i keep correlating it to her, hence my confusion

jagged apex
eager bay
#

So… when mindflayers do practice arcane magic, what kind usually?

iron saffron
eager bay
main coral
#

Hi, I'm running a campaign and it's going very well - a player wants to become a Silverstar though (Forgotten Realms setting) but I can't find any preexisting lore about how this is actually achieved. Is there likely a ritual of some sort, is it up to a church leader, is it the Moonmaiden's own choice, etc?

iron saffron
covert mountain
#

What y’all know about Pale Night I’m retrofitting a campaign I had made last year which fits her pretty well for the BBEG slot I just didn’t know she (it?) existed yet

iron saffron
#

Do you have a question about her?

#

Otherwise #dm-discussion would be a better place to ask if you need help with your campaign.

covert mountain
#

basically i read that she is like this malevolent entity, one of the earliest types of demons called an obyrith, but i also read that ‘reality rejects her presence’ due to its utter wrongness so thats why she has her veil forced on her

ig my question would be do y’all think the veil surrounding pale night is reality manifesting itself around her like a containment bubble or something else entirely?

#

and why does she affect reality so strongly when, what i read about other obyrith, the didn’t have as nearly an impact on corrupting reality around themselves.

#

just curious what y’all think

main coral
iron saffron
iron saffron
main coral
#

Ooh, highly variable and shifting often

#

So many reasons/ways

#

thanks!

covert mountain
jagged apex
#

the same can be said for many faiths honestly, just only some have such documents especially since on toril these days the gods have to often be a lot more indirect when involving themselves with mortals

#

the dead 3 being a bit of an exception cuz they did not listen to lord Ao's warning and paid the consequences

past verge
#

Whats the difference betweek halflings and gnomes typical personality lmao. They both seem like typical happy smurfs to me

iron saffron
#

They're two different humanod species.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/races#Gnome

A constant hum of busy activity pervades the warrens and neighborhoods where gnomes form their close-knit communities. Louder sounds punctuate the hum: a crunch of grinding gears here, a minor explosion there, a yelp of surprise or triumph, and especially bursts of laughter. Gnomes take delight in life, enjoying every moment of invention, exploration, investigation, creation, and play.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/races#Halfling
The comforts of home are the goals of most halflings’ lives: a place to settle in peace and quiet, far from marauding monsters and clashing armies; a blazing fire and a generous meal; fine drink and fine conversation. Though some halflings live out their days in remote agricultural communities, others form nomadic bands that travel constantly, lured by the open road and the wide horizon to discover the wonders of new lands and peoples. But even these wanderers love peace, food, hearth, and home, though home might be a wagon jostling along an dirt road or a raft floating downriver.

past verge
jagged apex
#

not to mention gnomes often are more whimsical

iron saffron
#

D&D gnomes have moved towards being inventor types (probably influenced Dragonlance's tinkerer gnomes (which in turn influenced World of Warcraft gnomes...)).

jagged apex
#

especially rock gnomes in the case of the forgotten realms, who are most well known of the gnomes in the realms

slate stream
#

Is tiamat Lawful evil or Chaotic evil? The PHB says she's lawful evil and most of her followers are lawful evil but both of her statblocks claim she's chaotic evil

jagged apex
#

last i checked she is both

#

partially do to her unique nature of being the embodiment of all evil dragon kind and her form of choice in 5e includes all 5 major chromatic dragon types

#

the current phb could have failed to take that into account and the statblocks could be do to creatures normally not having 2 alignments simultaneously, so could in that case be a result of the frame work for statblocks at the time of releases

slate stream
#

Can't she just be neutral evil

vague mica
#

She can be whatever you need her to be for your setting. I see her as LE since she lairs in Hell and not the Abyss, BUT 3 of her 5 heads are CE, so there's that. Make her whatever you need to make her fit your story.

slate stream
#

I know, i am just asking the difference between "Neutral evil" and "Both chaotic and lawful evil"

sharp owl
#

It's like the difference between food tasting both salty and sweet, and just tasting plain

#

From Vecna: Eve of Ruin

Tiamat embodies the vices of evil dragons. She is vengeful and covets power and wealth above all else. However, Tiamat isn’t reckless in her quests to expand her hoard. The dragon queen exhibits shrewd battle tactics and beguiling charm, easily swaying mortals. Each of Tiamat’s five heads has its own voice and mannerisms, but they all share the same consciousness.

#

She's sweet and salty popcorn

jagged apex
#

when i say she is basically the embodiment of all evil dragon kind i ment she more or less takes on many of the more evil or at least selfish traits of the chromatics, given each head's assigned norms for the dragon of that type and they all being her, having a shared consciousness despite being able to act or speak independently, makes her rather unique compared to other gods

#

despite being between the two alignements being neutral evil would not mean you are both lawful evil and chaotic evil, it would mean you are neutral evil, it is not just some splitting of differences

#

honestly one could argue her alignment is as fluid as her mood in the moment

iron saffron
#

Or the other explanation is that the designers of Tyranny of Dragons screwed up and made her CE in her statblock and they never errata'ed it.

jagged apex
#

well they said both her statblocks, which i believe means they were reffering to the aspect of tiamat from fizban's too

iron saffron
#

She was an archdevil back in 1E

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

honestly alignment these days rarely comes up as a definitive factor as rarely if at all it happens mechanically, more so reflects their moral and world views and thus actions but can change over time, basically tiamat more or less often falls into either of the two alignments, honestly her unique situation of being one of the few gods these days that has multiple alignments simultaneously is what makes her so interesting to me

iron saffron
#

The Law-Chaos axis does make a quite substantial difference in her behaviour though. (Personally it never made sense to me she was fixated to LE when she's the goddess of all evil chromatic dragons).

jagged apex
#

and given her chosen form representing both, i like that it can throw one off, giving her a certain unpredictable edge that one might not expect should they find themselves in the hells

feral lintel
#

The only Lawful chromatic iirc is blue

jagged apex
#

green

feral lintel
#

I thought green was NE

jagged apex
#

greens are on average lawful evil

feral lintel
#

Waaa- i have been lying to myself

jagged apex
#

maybe some individuals, by as a norm, they are lawful evil

feral lintel
#

I guess their trickster nature made me think otherwise

jagged apex
#

well they often to my understanding more so manipulative than trickster

#

granted the two can overlap at times, but they have their nuances and differences

lunar goblet
#

What are the official months of Spring in the Forgotten Realms? I want to run Dragon Heist with a calendar system and am trying to figure out when to start it.

iron saffron
feral lintel
lunar goblet
iron saffron
feral lintel
#

Yeah, havent dived that deep into older editions

strange rose
lunar goblet
#

Thanks. I wanted to start on Ches 19 but there’s also this cool holiday on that day in Waterdeep that would be good for the campaign, so I pushed it a bit earlier.

jagged apex
#

remember, toril uses tendays instead of weeks, and as the name implies a tenday is 10 days

#

so things might get a bit wonky if you went in without that knowledge

#

and weekday names as we know them are not really a thing, which may be worth noting

lunar goblet
#

Yeah, I know. I got confused because I assumed it was just three months like it is irl but the Spring Equinox was in Ches but Trolltide is mentioned in the spring section of the book.

lunar goblet
jagged apex
#

so dates are more important than saying "oh it is X day" at least in terms of things like dates documented and planning

strange rose
jagged apex
#

though as i recall this is largely cuz there was no real agreed upon names for these days so it never really caught on, so the lore arguably gives you room to make up your own for your games that would mostly just be a local custom of sorts among people living in the same area, but nothing solidified or concrete in that regard

strange rose
#

to keep track of campaign events I highly recommend https://app.fantasy-calendar.com/

It's free, has a built-in Calendar of Harptos complete with annual holidays and the phases of the moon.

jagged apex
#

remember, unless maybe you are playing AL, your games/your table is it's own continuity, so there is no problem with diverging, but when talking about what is factually described in the lore, like on this channel that is where we gotta go by the books and be objective as possible

lunar goblet
#

Yeah, I’ll keep to what Dragon Heist has given me for holidays and the like. I’m not moving major story events to holidays, but it’s just fun side content for the players.

#

The book gives me so much fantastic lore, I wanna use it.

jagged apex
#

a funny detail about that is in waterdeep gold coins pieces are called "dragons" hence the name of the adventure XD

harsh eagle
#

are there any enemies or monsters who had been said in lore, they could have even been heroes if things changed just slightly?

#

or maybe good guys who are very close to the brink of being corrupted or easily turned into bad guys

lament charm
#

Ok? Maybe you can share a specific campaign with me?

iron saffron
#

Please be specific what you want to know.

#

There's 50 years of D&D lore.

lament charm
#

Whoa…

#

50?

#

Hmmm

#

Can I ask about creatures????

iron saffron
crude blaze
#

This is generally more for like specific in-world history and such of the different settings

lament charm
#

Where can I ask about…creature lore and and world stuff???

iron saffron
#

It's like going to a historian and asking, "Tell me about the history of the universe!"

#

You have to be specific in your questions.

lament charm
#

Ok ok I’ll go look at something and come back

iron saffron
#

There are a lot of D&D lore nerds here but you need to be more concise on what you want to ask about.

lament charm
#

ACTUALLY I wanna ask about…vecna

#

Who is he?

iron saffron
crude blaze
#

One of the most iconic villains in D&D

lament charm
#

A lich becoming a god? Damn

iron saffron
#

He's left hand and left eye are powerful artifacts. They existed in 1E before Vecna the character finally appeared in 2E.

lament charm
#

Ooooh

#

Well I know of “vecna” from stranger things (ik it’s not vecna) but this is pretty cool

#

Oh! Is there a big bad that’s a wraith??????

crude blaze
#

Yeah, there’s very little that actually connects the D&D monsters from the villains in Stranger Things.

#

It’s usually just a way the kids in ST attribute their knowledge of D&D to the powers and capabilities of the villains they encounter in the show.

lament charm
iron saffron
#

Stranger Things was about kids in the early/mid 1980s who played a lot of D&D so they called the "real" monsters they encountered based on the D&D monsters.

lament charm
#

Funny too

#

Did he die???

#

Vecna

feral lintel
#

He's a god

lament charm
#

So no

#

Is there…any beings similar to vecna but is a wraith?????

feral lintel
#

Wraiths are a type of undead

lament charm
#

Oh ok

#

Srry I saw that it was in dnd but just wondering

#

What’s…the beholders deal???

iron saffron
#

Vecna is a lich.

lament charm
#

Ik

iron saffron
feral lintel
lament charm
#

Oh! Whats the most dreaded enemy in dnd that’s not a boss????

iron saffron
#

That's an opinion and not really something lore related. There's not really a "boss" in lore terms.

lament charm
#

Dang it

#

Ok well I’m wondering this as I saw it in a video
Werebears are lawfully good
And Werewolves aren’t…
Why are werebears good???

crude blaze
#

Not really that much of a lore question

iron saffron
lament charm
#

Hmmm ok

#

Man I’m srry Im making you guys mad I just wanna be interested in dnd more and I just don’t know what to ask 😅

iron saffron
lament charm
#

Creationist?????

feral lintel
#

Creationism is the religious belief that nature, and aspects such as the universe, Earth, life, and humans, originated with supernatural acts of divine creation.

iron saffron
#

A lot of D&D was influenced by Tolkien. In The Hobbit, the character Beorn was a "werebear" so Gary Gygax was probably inspired by this character and had werebears be LG.

crude blaze
lament charm
#

I love LOTR!

#

I didn’t know that

iron saffron
#

A lot of deities created species in their image. For example, Corellon Larethian is the chief deity of the elves and they created the elves in their image.

crude blaze
#

Gygax and co were fans of Tolkien. It’s why you’ll see a lot of Tolkien’s views of fantasy translated accordingly, like making elves historically pale and blonde, making dwarves stocky and big bushy bearded, etc.

lament charm
#

Huh.

iron saffron
#

The history of D&D and its influence from Tolkien's work is best for #dnd-discussion

lament charm
#

Ok thanks

modest badger
#

Indeed, while we can discuss origins of specific lore (Like halflings from hobbits), the overall general connection between D&D and Tolkien and all the other influences is better for dnd-discussion as it could go indepth and never really be about specific in game lore, and focusing much more on the influences of.

lament charm
#

Huh…cool ^^

jagged apex
#

though some examples of such characters can be found in some novels and or other media, but those are often specific to those stories

#

only one i can think of off the top of my head is from bg3 and that has a cavoite or two anyways, with one being bg3 being it's own continuity

#

though technically i guess if willing to settle for ones that long since fell to the dark side Lord Soth of the dragonlance setting is one established character in the lore that more or less went from good to evil if wanting to put it simply

past verge
#

Trying to learn more about the FR lore. Can anyone please recommend me some resources like vids or wiki articles?

#

The wiki consists of pages for specific eras/places, but couldnt find an overview or a recap

sterile breach
#

I know Jorphdan and AJ Pickett on YouTube are fairly well-regarded, but I don't have specific videos to suggest.

jagged apex
#

a good source for forgotten realms specific lore would also be ed greenwood, the setting's creator, own youtube channel

strange rose
runic cave
#

why is tieflings a race? cant any race be a tieflings?

sharp owl
#

No? Tieflings are tieflings

#

They're fundamentally different from other species, even if their parents aren't tieflings

#

You just edited your question from tiefling to aasimar, but the answer is actually literally the same dndLol

modest badger
#

I can see what you mean and I think the question might be better reframed as 'Are tieflings/aasimar/genasi assumed to be from human lineage or can they come from any species?'

sharp owl
#

So if two humans have a child that's an aasimar, why is that child an aasimar specifically and not just an aasimar human

#

Why is it a noun rather than an adjective is my interpretation

crude blaze
#

I feel WOTC is workig on what it means to be "planar touched" in 5E. Aasimar tend to be the "celestial touched" while tieflings tend to be the "infernal touched".

runic cave
#

Ah looking at the PHB tieflings are specifically humans

crude blaze
#

That said, I’m pretty sure the 2024 PHB is set to give tieflings the same treatment as MotM aasimar. Where you have a base race that has been “plane touched”.

crude blaze
#

Fingers crossed, the 2024 PHB is gonna be more setting agnostic

modest badger
#

The PHB tiefling isn't really meant to be FR tieflings, it just happens that FR tieflings are PHB tieflings if that makes sense.

strange rose
#

there is an elven tiefling-equivalent in FR: the Fey'ri

crude blaze
#

Idk, the intent still seems like it’s there, but I guess that’s not really a topic for the channel?

strange rose
#

plus tanarukks for orcs, which have actually appeared in 5e

crude blaze
modest badger
#

Tieflings have a odd history edition wise, due to 4e's influence. have become homogenised in 5e.

In 4e, they were specifically from Bael Turath and were homogenised for convenience of writing and art design:

All tieflings issue from the wicked root that was Bael Turath. They’re creatures descended from the devil-tainted rulers of that fallen empire, doomed to carry and pass on fiendish blood. In deciding on this single origin for tieflings in the world, we aimed to make them as easy to use as any other mainstream race.
A common origin meant we could give tieflings a unified appearance, and that look could be edgy instead of ugly. This cohesive origin allows players to imagine what their individual tiefling is like, as they would with a human, without worrying about a list of possible devilish traits. Further, knowing that every tiefling shares a similar body shape makes it easier to write new material for tieflings.
Wizards Presents Races and Classes, p. 48

Not yet associated with Asmodeus just yet, just 'Nine hells' pact. Although as Lord of Hell he became a prominent name and figure in tieflings that appeared in Dragon Magazines.

4e FR didn't really go into it in the books. The Campaign guides don't really explain why they're homogenous now in FR from what I saw, until a novel 'The Devil You Know' in 2016 introduced the lore that "the Toril thirteen performed a ritual that cursed most tiefling lineages—those of demons, devils, hags, and rakshasas, among others—with the "blood of Asmodeus", changing their original lineage with that of the archdevil himself" (Quoting the Wiki)

strange rose
modest badger
#

Jumping to 5e, we're keeping the homogenised look and not really explaining it, and the PHB tieflings are hinted to be Asmodeus tieflings even before SCAG and MTOF.

Then in SCAG 4e lore is echoed.

5e PHB:

tieflings know that this is because a pact struck generations ago infused the essence of Asmodeus—overlord of the Nine Hells—into their bloodline. Their appearance and their nature are not their fault but the result of an ancient sin, for which they and their children and their children’s children will always be held accountable.

SCAG:

Asmodeus and a coven of warlocks, the toril thirteen, performed a rite wherein the archdevil claimed all tieflings in the world as his own, cursing them to bear the "blood of asmodeus". This act marked all tieflings as descendants of the Lord of the Nine hells, regardless of their true heritage, and changed them into creatures that resembled their supposed progenitor.

So yes, the PHB lore and SCAG lore seem very similar, which would imply that the PHB tieflings are based on FR tieflings.

But to me it's more that FR tieflings were made into PHB tieflings. With FR becoming the more standard to use setting, their lore was changed to be more standardised and in keeping with the PHB.

crude blaze
#

Yeah, 3E did what they did, I'm mostly speaking from what the most updated 5E lore says

crude blaze
modest badger
#

The 2014 ones technically weren't either. FR was used as an example often, but the lore for the species wasn't meant to be FR dependent. Again, it's more that FR became more like the PHB.

strange rose
modest badger
#

An example I'd give of the PHB being more neutral is things like Dragonborn origins:

Born of dragons, as their name proclaims, the dragonborn walk proudly through a world that greets them with fearful incomprehension. Shaped by draconic gods or the dragons themselves, dragonborn originally hatched from dragon eggs as a unique race, combining the best attributes of dragons and humanoids.
-PHB

Where as in SCAG it presents the 3 myths from 4e FR- Made from 'lesser draconic spirits', born from Io's spilt blood, or made as the first humanoid intentionally by Io:

As with all stories of the ancient past, tales of the origins of the dragonborn are hazy and sometimes contradictory. Each reveals something about the dragonborn in its telling, however.

One story relates that the dragonborn were shaped by the ancient dragon-god Io at the same time that Io created the dragons. In the beginning of days, Io fused brilliant astral spirits with the unchecked fury of the elements. The greater spirits became dragons—creatures so powerful, proud, and willful that they were lords of the newborn world.
(...)
SCAG p.112

strange rose
#

yeah I don't know where this "PHB is FR specific" thing came from. The FR stuff is pretty much just examples

modest badger
#

Also this article (Archived) from 2013, during D&D next:

Pretty early on, we agreed that the core rules for D&D Next had to acknowledge the existence of all the worlds of D&D—not just the Forgotten Realms we’ve been talking a lot about, but also Greyhawk, Eberron, Krynn, Athas, Mystara, Ravenloft—and, most importantly, the thousands and thousands of worlds created by DMs for their own games. So we’re writing from that perspective, and you’ve seen snippets of it in the playtest materials—for example, the inclusion of the kender and the warforged in the last races document, with explicit mention of the worlds they come from.

And like int he DMG, they never say FR is the default, but list it among others that use the DMG/MM/PHB as the basic foundation:

This book, the Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual present the default assumptions for how the worlds of D&D work. Among the established settings of D&D, the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Mystara don't stray very far from those assumptions. Settings such as Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape venture further away from that baseline. As you create your own world, it's up to you to decide where on the spectrum you want your world to fall.
DMG p.9

#

Certainly though FR is the favoured setting of 5e. But the PHB was never meant to be FR based.

#

Jeremy Crawford also tweeted this:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/558363349549711360

Crawford: Does the #dnd tabletop RPG have one official setting? The answer is yes. That setting is the multiverse, which includes all #dnd worlds.
(...)
The core books intentionally emphasize the multiverse. FR is the focus of OP and our first #dnd5e adventures.
OP= Organised Play.

runic cave
modest badger
#

Dragonborn were a race introduced in 4e. Settings not updated since then will appear not to have dragonborn.

#

When new material is written for that setting, explanations and retcons might occur to introduce them.

#

For example Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen allows for non-krynn races (including Dragonborn and tieflings) to be playable:

Peoples who aren’t native to the world still might find their way to Krynn. It’s possible to find individual members—or even small enclaves—of folk like dragonborn, halflings, tieflings, or any other race in Ansalon. Perhaps such individuals stepped through a portal and found themselves on Krynn, or traded with one of Krynn’s great empires before the Cataclysm. Use such possibilities to play characters of any race you please in your adventures across Krynn.

Dragonborn weren't even in FR prior to 4e using the Abeir-Toril merge to explain their presence.

strange rose
#

also, something can exist in the D&D "multiverse" but not be present in one of the settings.

feral lintel
#

Although for the sake of this channel, using officially printed info is best

strange rose
#

I'm talking about a hypothetical setting book that says something like "X character option is not present in this setting"

feral lintel
#

Ah, misunderstood

modest badger
#

Also, the statement is true. The PHB can contain an option that isn't present in one setting, without then becoming based on another setting. The PHB is meant to be D&D multiversal. But not all it's options and lore will apply to all settings.
Including FR even.

feral lintel
#

(I was also trying to clarify while that Dms and so can add whatever, that the channel is mostly for official printed lore, mb)

strange rose
feral lintel
#

How many elves do we got now...

strange rose
#

FR has lots 🙂

feral lintel
#

There seems to be one for every biome

modest badger
#

elventy

feral lintel
#

dies of 1d4 pun damage

#

Oh, came here for a reason. What are some gods of disease in FR?

#

and what domain/portfolio are they?

strange rose
#

Talona, I believe

#

she appears to be Death domain

feral lintel
#

Ok, thx, just wanted a official god to use for a death cleric boss.

storm dagger
#

The revision implies that Teiflings are going back to their older lore, which is they can be desceneded from any of the Fiendish Creatures.

feral lintel
#

Which revision?

verbal sluice
#

Is it true every fr person is pan?

#

Hi

reef cape
#

So, pansexuality as a norm in the Forgotten Realms:
Ed Greenwood has made a few comments on how the culture of Faerun wasn't heteronormative. If we take all his comments together on that point, basically it can be inferred that gender is rarely considered an object in matters of attraction to another person.

#

At least, not culturally.

verbal sluice
#

That's not that inclusive as they think

#

No taking gender into consideration

reef cape
#

There's a difference between the cultural norm and the personal attractions.

verbal sluice
#

I what cultures?

reef cape
#

The culture doesn't take it into consideration, same way most cultures in our world don't take hair color into consideration on those matters. But a person is still perfectly capable of being exclusively attracted to one gender. Or a person might, without even noticing, have a history of only being attracted to a "type".

verbal sluice
#

Are people who greatly take gender into consideration are discrkmated or seen as weird?

reef cape
#

No they aren't.

#

Worst case scenario, it's considered a peculiarity. Same as we may consider a friend who is systematically attracted to redheads, or people taller than they are, to have a specific type.

verbal sluice
#

It sounds kinda bad

#

Idk

reef cape
#

Why is that?

verbal sluice
#

I don't particularly like it.

#

Cuz I'm trans girl I prefer if my gender is given importante even if my partner is bi.

modest badger
#

As a reminder folk, opinions on lore isn't actually on topic for this channel:

Opinions on lore - Opinions on changes to the lore, the availability of it, or any other similar topics are better suited to ⁠#dnd-discussion

#

As this is going to quickly stop being about the actual lore as written and more about general approaches to sexuality and gender. (Which might actually be a better topic for #non-dnd-topics

reef cape
#

I think you are not quite understanding the kind of culture Ed Greenwood was trying to convey, perhaps a bit clumsily. Let's head to #non-dnd-topics to continue this conversation, if you don't mind.

#

Why do I keep getting ninja'd?

verbal sluice
harsh eagle
#

is there an antagonist who is a lawyer related to the demons or whatever? I'm interested in how wotc does lore related to that

jagged apex
storm dagger
feral lintel
#

Ah, we technically dont use those yet

#

Since they are just UA

#

As of rn

storm dagger
#

Yeah I know, just saying that’s the implication of what the future will be

thorny phoenix
#

What is the general relationship between drows and wild elves? Is there any historical grudge or prejudice?

modest badger
#

Depends a lot on which setting and probably also what region.

thorny phoenix
#

True, Forgotten Realms - Sword Coast

jagged apex
#

also just a minor note, the plural of drow is still just "drow", at least last i checked

strange rose
thorny phoenix
strange rose
#

I thought those were wood elves, not wild elves

jagged apex
#

wild elves do not appear to have appeared in 5e yet

#

but to be fair, you likely confusing wild elves and wood elves as they are both sylvan elves

strange rose
#

huh, Melandrach is actually described as a wild elf in Tyranny of Dragons, TIL

#

Besides that, wild elves have appeared in 5e, in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide's "Rare Elf Subraces" sidebar. But no statistics.

desert aspen
#

Do paladins HAVE to have a god. If not where does their magic come from. Their “oath” isn’t very specific.

crude blaze
#

Same with clerics

desert aspen
#

That’s cool

#

So it’s just innate magic

crude blaze
#

Yep. It’s not deities that give them their powers and abilities, it’s their beliefs and conviction.

desert aspen
#

I thought so, but my DM doesn’t believe me no matter what I say (we’re talking forgotten realms not a homebrew world)

obsidian gate
#

wheter or not clerics need a god is setting specific.

crude blaze
desert aspen
#

Sword coast - forgotten realms

crude blaze
#

So it’s not innate like a sorcerer, who just has magic.

obsidian gate
#

Clerics do need a god in FR

desert aspen
#

Ok thought so

crude blaze
#

They don’t in FR either

desert aspen
#

I didn’t think paladins needed one tho

#

Really?

jagged apex
#

they don't

obsidian gate
#

I would like to see a quote on that

desert aspen
#

Did a little bit a googling, appears that paladins don’t, but clerics do.

jagged apex
#

paladins get their power from the oaths they swear themselves to, at least in 5e, they only required a god in some older editions as past editions often were much more strict

crude blaze
#

There’s a whole sidebar in Xanathar’s that explains that while the typical cleric serves a god, they don’t need to.

obsidian gate
crude blaze
#

It does not

desert aspen
#

PULL UP THE SCANS BABY

crude blaze
#

Some clerics, especially in a world like Eberron, serve a whole pantheon, rather than a single deity. In certain campaigns, a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments

#

“Especially in a world like Eberron” does not mean only in specific settings.

obsidian gate
#

yes, that means that a cleric serves a deity by default, unless the setting says something else is okay

crude blaze
#

No, it says some clerics don’t serve a single deity. Eberron is only listed as an example because it’s a world where deities aren’t even confirmed to exist 100%.

desert aspen
#

Although it’s ambiguous

crude blaze
#

Now if the sidebar said something along the lines of “in some settings, clerics don’t need to serve deities”, then yeah, I’d see the argument at hand

desert aspen
#

Ok but either way, the do serve SOMETHING

#

It’s not like a paladin where it doesn’t have to be attached to a specific entity

crude blaze
#

But it’s their belief in that something that powers them, not the something itself

desert aspen
#

Mmmm true

obsidian gate
crude blaze
desert aspen
#

I was about to say that

obsidian gate
#

xanathars is optional content

desert aspen
#

Although it seems like their philosophy has always been nothing is “outdated” but rather supplementary.

#

It’s strange

crude blaze
#

If that sidebar was in the PHB and then Xanathar’s made a sidebar saying “never mind, clerics and paladins need a deity to serve”, then that would be the most recently updated lore

desert aspen
#

If so they don’t, if not they do.

crude blaze
desert aspen
#

It could be seen as a revision to the class itself

crude blaze
#

Everything outside of the Basic Rules is optional

desert aspen
#

This is true

obsidian gate
#

also the xantathars sidebar doesnt say that the power of a cleric doesnt come from the thing they worship.

#

its still granted

crude blaze
#

Anyways, the only class that actually requires an interaction with a deific/near-deific being is the Warlock

desert aspen
#

It also doesn’t say that it does

#

It just says they serve them

desert aspen
crude blaze
desert aspen
#

Does divine intervention just not work now?

#

Since it’s not updated

crude blaze
#

So sure, the PHB might explicitly say Divine Intervention requires that you reach out to a deity, but since then, XGtE has made it different

desert aspen
#

Did it change the wording of the ability?

#

If not it works as written

crude blaze
#

Not to sound like I’m trying to bounce out of the convo, but that might be more of a #dnd-rules convo

#

(I also legitimately do have to step away, sorry)

desert aspen
#

It’s regarding the lore of the ability so I don’t see why, ability’s work as they are written and that’s the end of it. This is more regarding a lore contradiction.

#

Ight that’s fine

#

If someone else wants to jump in and help explain this that would be appreciated

iron saffron
#

Neither clerics nor paladins need deities/powers to grant them divine powers/spells. For clerics this has been the case since 3E and alluded to in 2E (clerics cut off from their deities, such as being on an Outer Plane opposite of their god's home plane lose access to higher level cleric spells except for 1st and 2nd level, which those are "self powered").

desert aspen
#

That doesn’t explain divine interventions wording though

jagged apex
#

from what i can recall, older editions as far back as like 2e or 1e, one could cast divine spells up to about 2nd or 3rd level without the aid of a god, which would be one reason why clerics would devote themselves to a god potentially

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

such assumtions i believe are usually made since that case is largely the norm

desert aspen
iron saffron
#

3E Deities & Demigods explains that clerics can believe in a force, ideal, or philosophy.

#

Never said that.

#

See the post above.

desert aspen
obsidian gate
#

also if you want the most recent Forgotten Realms specifc lore regarding clerics and gods, then SCAG would be a more appropriate place to look rather than xanathars imo.

oh and Adventurer's league had a strict "FR clerics need to worship a god" requirement

iron saffron
#

Then you and your DM will have to handwave the explanation why that feature works without the cleric having a deity.

desert aspen
#

Is it still the case

obsidian gate
#

I dont know

desert aspen
#

Mmmm I’ll have to look into that

#

It is still the case yes

#

I’ll defer to adventures league in that case

obsidian gate
#

the latest player's document still has the requirment

crude blaze
#

AL is a specific style of game tho

#

I wouldn’t say it’s the proper metric for what you can and can’t do outside of AL games

unkempt merlin
#

DMG says the same thing that Xanathars says, just in different words

iron saffron
#

Well, there's also the case that deities don't need to be directly worshipped to hand out divine spells/powers. In older editions, archdevils and demon lords weren't deities (although some demon lords were briefly lesser gods in 2E Monster Mythlogy...) but they could hand out to their cultists divine spells via an actual god working as a liaison.

jagged apex
#

to quote the dnd beyond lore included with the base class, which presumably is setting agnostic, lends to the idea that most cases a cleric does worship a god, in the section about creating a cleric is says this "the most important question to consider is which deity to serve and what principles you want your character to embody. The Gods of the Multiverse section includes lists of many of the gods of the multiverse. Check with your DM to learn which deities are in your campaign.

Once you’ve chosen a deity, consider your cleric’s relationship to that god. Did you enter this service willingly? Or did the god choose you, impelling you into service with no regard for your wishes? How do the temple priests of your faith regard you: as a champion or a troublemaker? What are your ultimate goals? Does your deity have a special task in mind for you? Or are you striving to prove yourself worthy of a great quest?" end quote

#

so at least seems the core class as listed on dnd beyond devoit of any specific setting makes the relationship with a god very important, but it really depends both on setting and the dm

crude blaze
#

Pretty the stuff in the core 3 isn’t setting agnostic btw

#

Like the PHB is written from a mostly FR perspective

jagged apex
#

well far as i know it is does not associate with a specific setting at least the stuff regarding the classes

desert aspen
obsidian gate
#

the DMG, xanthars etc all say the same thing: clerics usually serve gods, but in some settings, this might work differently

crude blaze
#

They don’t say in some settings, they say some clerics

jagged apex
#

granted i could be wrong, but it seems that majority of settings, with some exceptions, like eberron, a god is an important part of what makes a cleric a cleric and not a mere priest

desert aspen
jagged apex
#

but the biggest deciding factor is honestly more so your DM as their take on an established setting could be very different from what is published

desert aspen
#

We’re talking sword coast

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

The gods would have the monopoly on divine magic then because Ao is the one who grants which deity has control over which portoflio.

#

A cleric may be praying to the forces nature to grant her spells but indirectly she's indirectly praying to Chauntea.

obsidian gate
crude blaze
#

Idk, I think you’re misreading what’s been presented

iron saffron
#

Forgotten Realms is setting specific and that setting pretty much requires clerics to be devoted one of the scores of gods, some very niche.

crude blaze
#

I don’t see anything that says that clerics don’t need gods in some/certain settings

obsidian gate
#

I am just going by what is preestablished lore for FR.

crude blaze
#

Everything I see says some clerics (with no mention of it being setting specific) just don’t need gods

iron saffron
#

I've never read anything regarding FR where there are godless clerics (Ed Greenwood may have said/wrote something that would counter this)

obsidian gate
#

the xanathar's sidebar only contradicts that lore if you insist that godless clerics existing somewhere means they must exist everywhere

crude blaze
#

We all know Greenwood’s lore isn’t official, so

jagged apex
#

well, we know his lore is not always the same as wizards of the coast's version

unkempt merlin
#

that is what official would mean yes

jagged apex
#

i would not say it isn't official, or if i did i would definitely put a bit of an asterisk

crude blaze
#

It isn’t official

unkempt merlin
#

.

crude blaze
#

Just like Keith Baker’s own canon of Eberron isn’t official

iron saffron
#

Sure but they have more authority and knowledge over settings they created than us here.

crude blaze
#

There’s no such thing as “sorta official”. It kinda is or isn’t.

jagged apex
#

what i mean is sometimes someone will view official a bit different if you are to simply say official full stop

crude blaze
jagged apex
#

plus may just be me but just saying the creator's lore is not official just does not sit well on my tongue or feel write coming out of my mouth, feels better and a bit more accurate to say it and the published lore are not always one in the same

unkempt merlin
#

sure, but thats your personal feelings

crude blaze
#

Yeah, how you feel about it doesn’t change things

unkempt merlin
#

as much as i like a lot of keith's lore, im aware a lot of it is only kanon, not canon

jagged apex
#

i'll just dip from the topic then, don't wanna accidently start something

obsidian gate
#

well Ed signed away the rights to FR a long time ago. Its not his anymore. I respect his take on things a lot but if we have to decide what is offical, he doesnt have the final word

iron saffron
#

Anyway, I would say that the DM should decide how to handle a godless cleric in the FR setting since FR is a very deity-centric setting.

modest badger
#

Official lore is anything officially published by WotC or TSR.

There is a weird space around Greenwood's notes that he believes his contract says anything he publishes is canon to FR. But not official, and there are conflicting notes on actually what he publishes is canon. In one of the more clearer posts I could find on that he states anything he already had publishes is considered canon for FR. But the common take among the forums and some of his tweets is any thing he posts is canon.
I can't actually make a statement on that.

obsidian gate
crude blaze
#

Yeah, if we’re just gonna chalk it up to “what the DM says goes”, it isn’t really gonna answer any questions. Cuz that’s pretty much the ultimate answer to any and everything.

modest badger
obsidian gate
#

this did feel a lot like discussions in that channel

strange rose
#

I think this just comes down to, something like 99% of clerics and paladins are devoted to a god or gods in the FR. But there are exceptions. SCAG entry on paladins:

Most paladins in the Forgotten Realms, like clerics, are devoted to a particular deity.

crude blaze
#

Right. Most being the keyword

obsidian gate
#

Maybe its because I am not a native speaker, but this reads to me as: Most paladins in the FR are devoted to a deity like clerics are devoted to a deity.

unkempt merlin
strange rose
#

and for the record, I think Ed Greenwood's stance on things like this has generally been "this is the way things usually are, but obviously PCs are exceptions and can break the rules in the Realms"

unkempt merlin
#

"typical and some" would have the same meaning of "most"
ie: not all of them

obsidian gate
#

oh right, pantheon serving clerics are a thing in FR (which is not the same category as godless clerics)

strange rose
#

and druids often serve a pantheon as well, as per SCAG

obsidian gate
#

I think thats in the PHB too?

strange rose
#

I think so, yeah

crude blaze
#

Pretty sure there are even godless cleric NPCs in some of the more recent adventure modules that take place in FR, but I admittedly don’t have citations atm.

obsidian gate
#

I'll happily eat crow if you can find an example

reef cape
strange rose
#

that doesn't appear to be what SCAG says.

reef cape
#

Strange.

strange rose
#

interesting. The wiki has wood elves as "Or'tel-Quessir" so that must have changed at some point.

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

5E has high and wood elves in terms of game mechanics but not wild elves. Grugach (wild elves) were introduced back in 1E MM2 and were distinct from wood elves.

reef cape
jagged apex
reef cape
#

Because in theory, they're similar enough that it's not worth creating two distinct subraces, same as with moon and high elves, who can be considered different ethnocultural groups rather truly different categories.

#

But the SCAG differentiates Wild Elves from Wood Elves, but Wild Elves only get a slight mention that just makes you think "isn't that just wood elves?" and they're both called Sy'Tel-Quessir.

jagged apex
strange rose
jagged apex
#

the fact is the two, while related, are factually seperate

iron saffron
#

I stand corrected, wild elves first appeared in Dragon Magazine #67 and were later added in 1E MM2.

strange rose
reef cape
#

It is possible that the word "Sy'Tel-Quessir" simply refers to sylvan elves while the differences between Wild and Wood elves, this edition, are simply considered a very slight cultural deviations

strange rose
jagged apex
reef cape
#

Though it's interesting to note that the description of the wild elves in the SCAG seem to imply that they're simply considered to be a group of wood elves that went even further in their abandonment of modernity.

#

For a given definition of modernity, obviously

strange rose
jagged apex
#

it is not nessissarily a formal term, more so a classification

#

such as various dark elves, aquatic elves, ect...

reef cape
#

So, I think current lore is just that. Wild elves are just a subculture of wood elves that went further in their abandonment of modernity and embrace of a more primitive lifestyle.

#

It's what the SCAG implies at the very least

jagged apex
#

"Wild elf, a tribal and reclusive society opposed to civilization living in the deep heart of the forest, and
Wood elf, a society that had abandoned civilization, preferring the ancient elven forest as their home."

#

they are two similar yet seperate and distinct kinds of elves

iron saffron
#

Remember that in FR, moon and gold elves are mechanically "high elves" but in older editions moon elves were "grey elves" mechanically (and in 4E I believe they were referred to "eladrin" (but not the same eladrin in 3E)).

In AD&D, there were many playable sub-races of elves: grey, high, wood (sylvan), wild (grugach), and dark (drow).

reef cape
#

Yeah, in 4e all "high elves" were called Eladrins. While in 3e "Eladrin" referred to the chaotic good celestials that were only superficially related to elves.

jagged apex
#

and in 5e, the eladrin we have current stats and lore on, are feywild elves

strange rose
#

from the wiki article on wood elves, cited to 3e's Races of Faerûn:

The wood elves were actually native to Faerûn, the descendants of wild elves, moon elves, and sun elves who decided to retreat to their deepest woodland sanctuaries after the last of the Crown Wars.

iron saffron
#

We should pin Elgate's post on the various "eladrin"...

strange rose
#

so wild elves actually came first, it would seem

reef cape
#

But this edition, I think that's how it works. You've got the "high elves", which is a term that applies to all the elves that live in civilization on the surface in the material plane, including the distinct ethnocultural groups of Sun and Moon, you've got the "wood elves", which are all the elves that prefer a simpler life in tune with nature, and they have a more extreme subculture called Wild Elves, you've got the drows that nobody needs to explain, the sea elves that also don't need explaining, the Shadar-Kai which, like the Death Giants, are descendants/maybe reincarnations of elves that made some sort of pact with the Raven Queen, and the eladrins, which are the elves descended/maybe reincarnated from those who chose to stay in the feywilds.

#

Makes sense to me.

jagged apex
#

high elves is a classification/subrace like sylvan elves

strange rose
reef cape
jagged apex
#

sometimes i find the wiki helpful in terms of sorting things that are not always published into the books we get for any given edition

reef cape
#

I suppose the term "elven diaspora" would not be inaccurate considering the lore

teal rock
#

Can a very powerful mage to attain immortality with mere magic? Without turning into something like a lich or a vampire of course. I assume the answer is yes, but I would like to make sure.

#

Umm... Elminster has been around for quite some time, right?

fluid atlas
#

Can't cite specific sources but I'm going to assume yes, given people like Tasha, Elminster, and Mordenkainen still being alive.

#

There's also the Astral Plane, which you don't age in.

sharp owl
#

This channel isn't for hypothetical discussions, more for discussions of what the lore actually says

teal rock
#

Yes, and that's what I want. A lore accurate answer.

sharp owl
#

You're asking a hypothical

Is it possible for a very powerful mage to attain immortality with mere magic? Without turning into something like a lich or a vampire of course. I assume the answer is yes, but I would like to make sure.

teal rock
#

Ok. I edited my post.

sharp owl
#

That's the same question....

#

"Can X" and "Is it possible for X" are asking the same hypothetical

teal rock
#

Sorry. I do not know how else I should phrase this question. Could you help me out?

sharp owl
#

You're asking a question that isn't suitable for this channel

#

Per the pinned post I linked, there are other, more suitable channels

teal rock
#

I just want to know if a very powerful mage in Faerun can fully stop their aging without resorting to stuff like undeath. Where should I ask this question?

sharp owl
#

I linked to the pinned post where suitable channels are listed...

dry trench
#

I am seeing a notable overlap between two different oozes. I am curious if Ghaunadaur and the Demonlord Juiblix are the same or different. As I am a bit confused why the Godfather of oozes would be either an ex member of the Seldarine or associate with the Dark Seldarine?

sharp owl
#

Ghaunadaur is a god, Juiblix is a demon lord
They both have connections to oozes, but that doesn't meant they're the same

#

There's often overlap between entities across the various spheres of power

#

Evil gods can exercise control or influence over the same entites as are influenced by devils or demons or far realm beings

dry trench
#

Though I noticed one of Ghanaduars aspects/aliases is Juiblex

#

I found the source being demihuman deities from 2nd edition

sharp owl
#

Yeah, that seems to be a dated source that is likely not accurate anymore

#

As I can't find anything else supporting it

dry trench
#

Still strange and interesting

modest badger
dry trench
#

Another note I have is both Lolth and Juiblex having territory in the abyss. Which is interesting indeed. Though Lolth is confirmed to be a Goddess and not a Tana'ri or Obyrith. Something interesting to think about.

modest badger
#

I went into a deep dive on Tharizdun/ EEG/ Ghaunadaur / Juiblex up here as at some points they have have been merged or seperated in the lore.

taking the relevant snippet:

And 2e Monster Mythology 1992 relates EEE/EEG to Ghaunadaur and Juiblex. It talks about Elder Elemental God describing it as 'a force of pure elemental energy' that was banished from the prime plane and takes a different form in each world.

Readers of FOR2, The Drow of the Underdark, will find a specific form for this god in the Forgotten Realms, that of Ghaunadaur. The version presented there is one which fuses the identity of the (EEG), with that of an entity which appears to be its servant in some manner, Juiblex. In this book (EEG) and Juiblex are separated and statistics for both are provided. In Most worlds, their followings have a very distinctive difference."

2e Demihuman deities 1998 reiterates this

Although Ghaunadaur is a distinct entity unrelated to the tana'ri lord Juiblex, the Faceless Lord, or the otherwise unnamed Elder Elemental God, neither of the latter two powers is active in the Realms, and Ghaunadaur has assumed both of their aspects within the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace. Gormauth Souldrinker may have once been the name of a seperate power, but if so, it has long been totally subsumed by That Which Lurks.

So they are seperate, but their similarities mean that they have overlapped or had aspects subsummed from each other

#

Juiblex in 4e is also very connected to the EEG and Tharizdun in lore and Elemental Evil, thus connecting to Ghaunadaur who was the FR version of EEG. (3.5 started merging Tharizdun and EEG, which is what 5e goes with. )

dry trench
#

Interesting indeed, Tharizdun is the Primordial that attempted to merge himself with the shard of ultimate evil and darkness right?

modest badger
#

That's the 4e lore if I recall yep, and what also results in Juiblex who is almost an manifestation of the 'infection' caused by the shard of ultimate evil infecting the elemental chaos.

dry trench
#

Is 4th edition lore still regarded much?

#

I do know 4e has upheaved some fundamentals of lore and 5e has backpedaled much of the continuity. To a point similar to 3.5e

modest badger
#

A lot of 4e cosmology was kept over, but it's a bit hard to say on this one. Haven't seen 5e delve too much into the planes quite yet, but I also don't recall that lore being repeated in 5e (I may have missed it though)

dry trench
#

I do know the primordial Mual tar hasn't been acknowledged outside of 4e. Which is a shame since his inclusion wouldn't be to major or lore breaking to my knowledge.

sharp owl
#

Remember that contunuity of lore is generally contained to the edition it was printed within

#

Lore can be assumed to carry over between editions if it doesn't contradict that editions lore

#

So for example, if 1st edition lore says A = X and B = Y, and then second edition says B = Z, we can still assume A = X because it hasn't been directly contradicted

dry trench
#

Alrighty, I do have a question on where I should start to learn the fundamentals of dnd lore. I am beginning my rabbithole down this setting and want to know what sources I should look into.

I do know a notable source for some information is the Dragon Magazine and existing sourcebooks. I just simply don't know where I can possibly start.

sharp owl
#

There isn't a 'start'

#

D&D lore isn't linear with a single origin point

#

Pick something that sounds interesting and then just branch out

#

Maybe you start with the Masked Lords of Waterdeep in the Forgotten Realms, or the origins of Warforged in Eberron, or the models of Spelljammers or the clash between Vecna and the Lady of Pain on Sigil

#

Asking where to start with D&D lore is akin to asking where to start with world history dndLol

dry trench
#

Settings like Eberron feel disconnect from the overall forgotten realms. Correct me if I am wrong though

sharp owl
#

Settings are generally disconnected from each other, yes

dry trench
#

I do acknowledge your point though

sharp owl
#

Also, you never specified Forgotten Realms lore

dry trench
#

Thats my bad apologies

sharp owl
#

But even then, there's no starting point other than one you make for yourself

#

If in doubt, pick something that sounds interesting and/or relevant

#

Is there some specific topic/aspect/facet of FR lore that's piqued your interest? That's a good starting point

dry trench
#

I have had my interest piqued of Drow society, and I have explored much of their culture and their pantheon. Which had brought me to other Underdark races

sharp owl
#

So start with a prime topic in that and branch out

#

Say Menzoberanzan or Underdark

dry trench
#

I am confused of the Derro and if they are at all related to the Duergar at all. As their creation myth suggests of their relation to an extent.

sharp owl
#

Derro are an offshoot of dwarves, while duergar are dwarves mutated by illithids

#

There are legends that derro are duegar who didn't escape the illithids and were further tortured and corrupted

#

But this is just a duergar legend and isn't a certainty

drowsy wraith
#

Does anyone know what's directly south of Balic in Dark Sun/on Athas? South of the Deadland?

grim siren
# teal rock Umm... Elminster has been around for quite some time, right?

In the realms there are multiple rumors for Elminster's longevity. Some say its potions, other say its spells.

Part of the answer was given in the Novel Death Masks. ||He can take over other people's bodies and change them to match his preferred form||

But in reality even this strange power and most other explanations for him specifically do come down to being a Chosen of Mystra, the FR Goddess of Magic, and being her lover.

No matter what other young mage might get in the way Elminster has a special place in all versions of Mystra's heart particular for that and for helping raise her children.

wet flower
#

I don’t know if this is a good place for lore question but does anyone know when the flaming fist was first created?

sterile breach
crimson rain
#

I have a question, most lizardfolk worship Semuanya; and some Sess'inek. If a lizardfolk worships semuanya, will they be hostile (to the point of killing them) to sess'inek followers? (Sess'Inek followers kill semuanya clerics on sight).

What if a lizardfolk believing in Semuanya and a Yuan-Ti believing in Sess'Inek meet?

#

Do lizardfolm and Yuan-Ti get along?

sharp owl
#

@verbal cradle they're asking in the context of officially published lore. That is the discussion purpose of this channel, it's not #dm-world-building

reef cape
# crimson rain I have a question, most lizardfolk worship Semuanya; and some Sess'inek. If a li...

If Sess'Inek followers kill Semuanya followers on sight, it's perfectly normal for the latters to be hostile, at least as a principle of self-defense.
As for Yuan-Tis, they rarely worship Sess'Inek. They have a lot of gods, but they are normally not interested in the worship of demon lords. They prefer old gods, snake gods.

And usually, Yuan-Ti have something of a superiority complex with the other scaled folks, but it is possible for anyone to get along with anyone

dark mason
#

Lore question about wealth and value. Like if the players walk into a Throne room and a queen greets them with all her finery how much would all the jewels, gold and all that wealth be on that person? Like how much in value would she be wearing without digging into her coffers? 1k? 2k? 10k?

And lets say a player character goes into a couple shops and drops a grand on armors and potions.
How does one measure one to another? Like is the queen's ring enough to outfit someone completely?

iron saffron
#

That's more of a #dm-discussion question because the question isn't specific to a setting nor lore.

dark mason
#

There is no universal floor on what wealth value is?

iron saffron
feral lintel
#

Youre also asking about how to run something for your games

dark mason
#

hm ok thank! I will check the link 😄
Not really for DMing I was just curious as a player to learn the basics. My understanding of DND economics is solely videogame based.

iron saffron
#

Still not lore related unless you're asking about a specific nation in a specific campaign setting.

tardy wasp
#

Where do Faerie Dragons come from? I thought they were dragons originally born in and adapted to the Feywild, but then Moonstone Dragons scooped up that lore for themselves, so what’s the proper origin for the little fellas?

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

moonstone dragons in 5e just are the ones out of the true dragons who did that, presumably as well as those eodracos that would become faerie dragons

#

heck, technically the evolution theory that goes with the tree that oldman linked, is in universe more so a theory rather than just out right fact

iron saffron
#

Moonstone dragons firest appeared in 2E but faerie dragons have been around since 1E.

jagged apex
#

i know, i just don't recall if their prior lore was the same as their 5e lore, as sometimes lore can change drastically from one edition to another

#

point is, nothing i am aware of stops both species from being natives of the feywilds

serene crater
#

quick question but has it ever been noted of what's inside Miska's prison or is it more akin to a blank void?

jagged apex
#

not sure, if anything there might be details in vecna eye of ruin, but far as i know it is left ambiguous

balmy garden
#

Is Moander 5e canon?

#

Or more of past editions?

sharp owl
#

Moander is mentioned in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, so would be canon to the current edition

balmy garden
jagged apex
#

seems apart from the fortress and the cocoon of law surrounding it, seems indeed is currently at least what i documented on the wiki is left ambiguous

modest sigil
#

What kind of forgotten realms creature/being would be the most likely to inflict a curse on someone if any at all? Preferably something that isn’t a god.

feral lintel
#

A lot

modest sigil
#

I’d assume Hags would be one

feral lintel
#

Hags, mummies, liches just to name a few

jagged apex
#

nothics too

balmy garden
#

Is there a canon organization of warlocks

#

Kinda like emerald enclave but warlocks

#

Would warlocks even work with each other?

iron saffron
#

Which setting?

unkempt merlin
#

The Venomous Demesne in Eberron is effectively run by warlocks

crude blaze
#

The Heralds of the Comet introduced in the Book of Many Things are also effectively a group of warlocks

#

I don’t think they’re identified as anything other than a doomsday cult, but two out of three of their statblocks are “Humanoid (Warlock)”

unkempt merlin
#

In general many cults (especially those of demons and devils, but some for gods as well) also contain a high amount of warlocks. Much like how not everyone who is a part of the emerald enclave isn't a druid or ranger.

verbal barn
#

What cleric domain would make sense for a cleric of Fenrir?

feral lintel
#

Fenrir isnt a god in 5e

verbal barn
#

Does the hound appear in any other edition?

feral lintel
#

Not from what i can see

iron saffron
#

Fenrir (Fenris wolf) appeared in the 1E Deities & Demigods. It is not a deity but just an unique monster.

feral lintel
#

Isnt a god or deity in the original mythos either

jagged apex
verbal barn
#

Hmm.. Idk if this is the right channel to ask as I think this is both a lore and a character discussion question but what cleric would you choose to worship Fenrir?

iron saffron
#

Again, Fenrir isn't a deity.

unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

That's fine but Fenrir (Fenris wolf) isn't a deity in 1E AD&D.

jagged apex
#

though some warlocks do conduct themselves similarly to and sometimes may even think they are clerics of what ever power they serve

verbal barn
#

So Fenrir wouldn't be powerful enough to be able to give powers to a cleric?

#

Since it's not a dirty

#

Diety*

iron saffron
#

It is not a deity so it wouldn't give divine powers to a cleric. However, 5E clerics don't need a deity to give themselves divine powers.

jagged apex
#

well is not all purely power, he factually is not a deity in terms of status, meaning he does not have enough beings in a world that worship him as a god, so is not like he has any sort of means of being a god

#

i know in the original myth fenrir is a child of loki, but i do not know if that is the same as with dnd's version of loki

iron saffron
#

Fenrir isn't in the 3E Deities & Demigods. Demi/quasi deities have Divine Rank 0 and not all creatures that have Divine Rank 0 are deities (the Valkyries and Asgardian giants have Divine Rank 0 but aren't "deities" per se so they can't grant clerics spells).

verbal barn
#

Could eillistraee give a cleric powers?

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

though if you wanted to you and your dm could make fenrir a god in your setting or for your own games, but that would be more so something for you and your dm to work on or brainstorm in #dm-world-building

jagged apex
# verbal barn Could eillistraee give a cleric powers?

any god can do so, so long as they are a god and if in another setting other than their native one, be it though at a more limited scale depending on their following in that setting, has at least one devout follower, at least to my knowledge going based on questions i asked regarding forgotten realms and the dnd version of loki when i asked greenwood once

verbal barn
jagged apex
iron saffron
#

1E Deities & Demigods and 2E Legends & Lore.

balmy garden
grand wyvern
#

Do all elves have a common ancestor? Or are drow and high elves totally different other than the pointy ears?

iron saffron
#

At least in the FR setting, elves were originally from the Feywild and thus the fey eladrin.

High elves are one of many elven sub-races (high, wood, wild, sea, dark, grey, valley, avariel (winged), snow, and astral).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elf#Subraces

grand wyvern
#

Gotcha so they came from the same realm, not necessarily the same lineage

iron saffron
#

The elves who remain in the Feywild are eladrin.

grand wyvern
#

The more I find out about Lolth, the more I miss my ignorance. It truly was bliss.

jagged apex
#

in forgotten realms they all supposedly came from the drops of Corellon's blood, the first elves, primal elves, including the who would one day become lolth

#

far as i know all elves eventually can, at least in the forgotten realms, trace their lineages back eventually to one of the primal elves, ie the first elves that largely would make up the rest of the elven pantheon along side corellon

jagged apex
#

from what i am aware of you technically have her to thank for there being different types of elves, as supposedly she convinced them there was power in restricting oneself to only one form, granted i could be wrong, but from what i can recall that is the case in at least the forgotten realms

balmy garden
#

Or like cult-like evil

#

Would you say that Moander druids would want the destruction of world or just the return of Moander to Toril? Knowing full well that Moander's return is apocalypse?

jagged apex
# balmy garden Or like cult-like evil

i'd say more so the evil sort given a partial quote "The Heralds of the Comet is a secret organization with a sinister agenda. Believing the multiverse is a flawed creation, members of this cult look forward to the end of all worlds and planes of existence." end quote

crude blaze
#

Yeah, the problem with them is that their lower ranking members often don’t know the cult’s real agenda, so it’s very easy to have people in their ranks who aren’t evil.

#

The higher ranking decision makers are generally aware of the plans and are evil

balmy garden
#

So they are like illuminati

#

Anyways how about druids of Moander

jagged apex
#

no, to my knowledge they do not secretly rule the world, not every secretive orginization is like the illuminati

#

only real simularity is them both being secretive orginizations

balmy garden
#

Ooohhh oki

#

Cuz I am trying to connect evil druids and warlocks via their devotion to Moander. But then I don't see druids advocating for apocalypse

jagged apex
#

well you could argue it would be the most extreme version of the sort of view wild fire druids would have, but on the scale of the whole multiverse, good chance such individuals, probably are a few trees short of a forest if you know what i mean

#

ie, insane

balmy garden
#

So they use druidism to get to the ends, and they don't have to have regard to life and nature itself?

jagged apex
#

to quote in the case of wildfire druids "Druids within the Circle of Wildfire understand that destruction is sometimes the precursor of creation, such as when a forest fire promotes later growth." end quote

#

honestly lines up with tharzidun's mo, destroy the current multiverse, to make a new one, in his case one in his own twisted image

balmy garden
#

Omg that's it

#

I finally have soemthing to work with

#

Ty so much

jagged apex
#

yeah the idea you are looking for is taking that idea basically to the most extreme ie multiversal scale and honestly is a bit insane, but there are some people that just either are crazy or wind up insane for any number of reasons, especially if someone like tharzidun is involved

balmy garden
#

I just need to involve some undead as well

#

And treants

keen raptor
#

Hello everyone. I will be running a level 20 campaign soon, which would entail the players trying to save the Greek Pantheon from an invading force of D&D gods. I have Vecna, Asmodeous, and Tiamat as some definite members of the invading force, but want to know what other gods would likely participate with them. I will be heavily homebrewing my setting to make it a separate multiverse from the D&D multiverse that the invaders are coming from, but I still want to get an idea about some gods that would participate with some of the ones that I already mentioned. Any thoughts?

iron saffron
keen raptor
#

Fair enough.

keen raptor
#

Hey, which of the dnd gods does Asmodeus get along with best?

serene crater
#

if anything, more gods hated him than liked him

keen raptor
#

But given a the few that do actually get along with him, are there any 5 or so that he would actually work with?

serene crater
#

not usually no for FR. Exandria he's tied with the betrayer gods so alliances with them could be a possibility. Though with FR, the only case I could see it is if Asmodeus had something those gods would want, then technically he could have an alliance with almost anyone. But that does delve into a more what if case rather than what is

iron saffron
#

Remember that Asmodeus is the prime devil and that devils are schemers and "fine print" lawyers of the multiverse. Devils are more trustworthy than demons in the grand scheme of things but they're still devis (they want something in return for doing something).

serene crater
#

agreed

iron saffron
serene crater
#

now iirc, is this the same situation Asmeodus got involved in court with the angels or was this to negotiate where evil souls should go?

keen raptor
#

I mostly asking because, as previously mentioned, I want to ruin a campaign involving the Greek gods being invaded by D&D gods from another multiverse. I have already concluded that Vecna, Asmodeus, and Tiamat would likely work together at least somewhat effectively, but I hope that they would have three other partners because It feels odd for only 3 gods to solo the entire Greek mythos. I just want to see who these gods might trust to be apart of this invasion so that my group feels more united than the Greeks, as a main mission of the campaign will be uniting the Greek mythos.

iron saffron
#

The Greek pantheon is mentioned in the 1E Deities & Demigods, 2E Legends & Lore, 3E Deities & Demigods, and 5E's PHB/DMG.

keen raptor
#

I tried asking # dm-world-building, but I keep ruining into issues where they could not help me because my setting was different than the normal D&D multiverse. I am just trying to ask what other three gods would Vecna, Tiamat, and Asmodeus most likely work with.

iron saffron
keen raptor
#

That is just a list of dnd gods and it does not show alliances or any evidence that one god might be fine with another.

wintry badge
#

What he's trying to say when gods work together its not about who they are likely to work with. More like which gods have something to gain by working together. Mammon and asmodeos don't have any real ties to each other but if there was money to be gained from it mammon probably wouldn't hesitate to do it. Gods devils deities are selfish beings that prefer to operate alone.

keen raptor
#

Oh, so I am just supposed to pair them up based on if they do not have any conflicting motives?

wintry badge
#

Pretty much yeah.

strange rose
#

or if they have mutual goals

keen raptor
#

So bane + Asmodeus is just not likely because they have a very similar motive?

wintry badge
#

Sorry I misread. It's more like will just said. Mutual goals like the goal of wanting a larger domain of Influence is a great reason for two gods to join together

keen raptor
#

So mutual, but not to similar?

strange rose
#

if the two gods want the same thing, that could lead to them working together to achieve that goal, or to conflict if only one of them can reap the rewards.

#

it depends on the situation. Bane and Asmodeus might work well together because they have similar values, or decide that there can be only one supreme tyrant and see each other as rivals. It's kind of up to you on a case by case basis

wintry badge
#

Remember that God's and deities are scheming smart selfish so while yes they will work together they will almost always be willing to stab the other in the back if the situation presents itself. Remember this is your world as a dm you can make them do whatever you want. The lore is there if you wanna use it or not

daring breach
#

You are building a world, which means you have to make decisions that others can't make for you because it's not their world.

strange rose
#

for example, Shar and Talos want to see similar things happen (the destruction of civilization and order), so they often work together to achieve those ends

#

Azuth and Savras both serve Mystra, and so might be working towards similar goals, but come into conflict because of personal disagreements and the fact that they're competing for Mystra's favor

keen raptor
#

So here is what I am thinking so far: Vecna wants the secrets that the fates have, Asmodues wants a new domain to conquer, Tiamat is bord and kinda forced to come along by contract, and Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal are coming to regain some of there former power following the Second Sundering by defeating various greek titans and giants (which indirectly helps the invasion).

iron saffron
keen raptor
#

Got it, but it still makes sense for these six to work together from a lore perspective, right?

strange rose
#

yes, they're all evil deities who could conceivably work together, though such sprawling alliances tend to break down rather quickly

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

He literally trapped her in Avernus. And she is constantly trying to get out. I highly doubt they are on good terms necessarily

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge at least prior to the events of tyranny of dragons, she was a willing ally of his and served him well

#

plus from my understanding her being trapped in avernus in at least some of the lore was not asmodeus' doing

jagged apex
#

but yeah, in modern terms, tiamat would likely be on bad terms with asmodeus far as i know

keen raptor
#

Unless a new alliance involved Tiamat being out of Avernus.

#

Otherwise, they are not on the best terms.

jagged apex
#

and to my knowledge at least in regards to going from avernus to toril tiamat can not do so, potentially extended to the rest of the prime material plane, but for sure at least toril, can not freely leave, hence the ritual in and the events of the plot of tyranny of dragons

late wasp
#

I got a question, would tiamat ever forgive Bahamut or are they destined to be enemies forever?

jagged apex
#

far as i know tiamat probably does not have "forgive" in her vocabulary, they have not gotten along for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGG time

#

part of their whole dynamic is always being at odds with one another, bahamut always being there attempting to thwart tiamat's schemes

#

they are complete opposites in terms of personalities basically, there is nothing to forgive really, let alone anything bahamut would have done wrong to be forgiven

carmine hull
#

hi, I have a bit of a lore question, because I have been told I am wrong, and I would like to clear it up. Does Neverwinter ever actually have Winter -- as in, all snowy and cold, where those who can afford it might seek out the warms and comfort of a taverns merry atmosphere, and those who cant stay home snuggled around a fire?

I have been told that Neverwinter never gets like this, hence the name.

Is that actually the lore, or does it have a winter?

#

i mean offical lore of course, because I realise that I can make my own worlds lore pretty much whatever I want

sharp owl
#

It's just a name, it's not literal

#

Etymology
The city was originally named Eigersstor, which was an Illuskan word. The name "Neverwinter" was the Chondathan translation.[6][22][note 1]

A number of legends explained where the city's name came from, but they contradicted each other. Some believed the city was founded by a sun elf named Halueth Never, who led the elves of Iliyanbruen against an Illuskan invasion in −10 DR. Surrounded by enemies, he chose the site where the river met the sea to make his last stand, naming the place "Never's Winter", believing he would die in the ensuing battle. However, human allies arrived just in time and together they defeated the Illuskans. Never founded the city, keeping the name, and over the years it was shortened to "Neverwinter".[23]

Others, such as Volo and Elminster, reported the name came from its gardens, for Neverwinter's gardeners were acclaimed throughout the Realms for keeping their gardens growing and flowers blooming even through winter snow. This was also the source of the city's moniker, "the City of Skilled Hands".[1][2][3][4] (In fact, they used hothouses.[3])

Others, however, believed the city was named for its unusually warm climate and how its harbor remained ice-free in the winters.

#

The city explicitly does get ice and snow, that's what makes it's gardens exceptional

carmine hull
#

this makes sense. Its a lot easier to just incorporate this official lore than have to come up with my own. But the person who told me I was wrong about the winters was pretty insistant that it was called Neverwinter because it never had a winter.

sharp owl
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

jagged apex
#

seems the person was likely just taking the name of the city too literally and was not aware of any of the supposed origins for it's name

serene crater
#

quick question, but is it considered taboo in FR for a dragon to be associated/worshipping a non draconian god? (Example, a crystal dragon worshipping lathander)

iron saffron
#

Dragons aren't really the worshipping type of creatures unlike most sentient creatures. It's more respect/reverance than actual worship.

serene crater
#

ah, I see

iron saffron
#

When dragons are considered on of the oldest/ancient sentient species and if they survive long enough to reach the greatwrym age category they could be come "quasi powers" by having echoes across worlds.

jagged apex
#

also is worth noting, at least i feel this is something worth noting, historically crystal dragons were known to act as servants of the following deities in the realms "Aerdrie Faenya", "Brandobaris", "Erevan Ilesere", "Gond", and "Vergadain"

#

this does not nessissarily mean they worshiped those gods though

#

at least to my knowledge, as crystal dragons like other gem dragons tend to usually be isolationists, living far from any others of their kind or civilization

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

though seems they likely would not call them by their more well known name, not sure what they would call the Lathander if not his aspect or one of his titles

true solstice
#

If Celestials can fall and become evil, can Fiends rise and become good?

storm dagger
serene crater
storm dagger
#

It's rare but can happen.

serene crater
#

demons being the most impossible as they are the embodiment of chaos.

#

had a brain fart for a moment XD

storm dagger
#

It's explicitly harder for a fiend to become good than an angel to become evil.

#

Cause being good is harder.

serene crater
#

the only exception I've seen was a balor in wildemount that became chaotic good because of the feywild

crude blaze
#

Naviask my beloved

serene crater
#

tbh I found that surprising, knowing that balors are one of the most powerful and in tuned with the abyss

#

it makes me wonder, have there been other fiends that have either been redeemed/influenced to become a more good/neutral alignment

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

operating in the extreme morals of the outer planes, makes them not really able to handle moral grey areas that well, thus also why you will rarely see or hear of an angle being sent to the prime material plane

jagged apex
#

conceptually i love Mihr, dude just wants to be a good boy

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

in addition to the difficulty of going against their very being/nature

late wasp
jagged apex
#

especially those who are devils cuz of the bloodwar and hell having no mercy for what they would see as traitors i'd imagine

jagged apex
late wasp
#

The elegy for the first world is kinda confusing tbh

jagged apex
#

in that version they have not really gotten along since

#

either way, they have been enemies for a long time and are unlikely to just work together shy of some sort of threat to both their existences, like when in older lore they were initially birthed from the cleaved corpse of Io

feral lintel
late wasp
#

If sardior were to somehow return would that bring them together for the love of their child or something, or is that just wishful thinking

jagged apex
#

wishful thinking

iron saffron
#

Dragon Magazine had a series called "Fight Club" where it introduced Eludecia, a lawful good succubus paladin. She appears in the short 3.5E adventure "Legend of the Silver Skeleton"

feral lintel
#

Wishful thinking (but i would love to se Mr. Ruby Dragon himself return nonetheless)

jagged apex
#

at best, Sardior could maybe, get them to work together again, but anything else would be a stretch to say the least

late wasp
#

Hmm

#

Did her race actually change to be a devil or does she just hold the title of archdevil

jagged apex
#

his thanes last i checked are working on it, but is by no means happening any time soon, from what i recall reading in fizban's

late wasp
#

Or at least did

jagged apex
late wasp
jagged apex
#

he has lore in fizban's that is not old

late wasp
#

Really? I thought he was mentioned at best

#

Like in old editions he had a ruby palace and would frequent the air plane

#

And stuff like that

jagged apex
#

to our knowledge the obsidian dragons do not exist in the 5e continuity, at least far as i can recall

jagged apex
#

anything that does not contradict with his newer lore directly, can be assumed to still be true in the 5e continuity until we are explicitly told otherwise

late wasp
#

Okay, so I guess he had a sort of retcon or revamp to his lore in fizbans, or do they still acknowledge his lore from previous editions?

jagged apex
#

not as much lore as you would want, is still lore

late wasp
#

I see

jagged apex
#

like i said, anything not mentioned in the current edition lore at the time can use prior editions to fill in the gaps for the time being so long as it does not contradict

late wasp
#

And since obsidian dragons don't exist in the current continuity, they can be assumed to not apply to his lore either

jagged apex
#

basically his 5e lore is confirmed for 5e, older lore can be assumed to still be true if one wishes until we are told something that contradicts it

iron saffron
#

5E doesn't say outright they don't exist.

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

There are a lot of monsters from older editions that aren't in 5E yet. Later 5E books may reintroduce them.

jagged apex
#

5e's life cycle is still on going, and not ending anytime soon far as we know, so the possibility for reintroducing older concepts and creatures can still happen, like with some of the things we are gunna be getting in the upcoming infinte staircase book

iron saffron
#

It took a long time for 5E to reintroduce a lot of the older campaign settings, such as Planescape and Spelljammer, so just because it isn't in 5E yet doesn't mean they don't exist.

late wasp
#

Okay, but for the time being all we have to work with in terms of obsidian dragons would be homebrew :/

jagged apex
#

so until they blatantly say they don't exist or something in the lore that makes it impossible for them to exist, the possibility is still there

iron saffron
#

They only existed in 3E.

jagged apex
late wasp
#

I see, unfortunate

jagged apex
#

not really, homebrewing is kind of baked into dnd's dna

late wasp
#

There's admittedly a lot of potential for something with his thanes, because they don't really explain why he banished her in the first place

#

The obsidian dragon, that is

jagged apex
#

is partially why you never get every last detail on anything, there is always gunna be elements for better or worse left unknown or up to interpretation

late wasp
#

And are obsidian dragons considered gem dragons?

feral lintel
jagged apex
jagged apex
jagged apex
late wasp
#

Sardior was described to be kind of roughish, but also very entertaining to those around him

#

So I can't imagine what his personal thane would have to do to illicit a reaction like that

jagged apex
#

nothing about him suggests he would condone murder, especially of another gem dragon

#

though rereading it, likely do to their evil nature

late wasp
#

Evil nature? You mean dragons?

jagged apex
#

no, the obsidian dragons specifically

late wasp
#

Oh ok

#

He really seems like a kind of trickster god

jagged apex
late wasp
#

His portfolio matches that kind of craftiness

#

Psyonics and whatnot

jagged apex
#

well trickery was one of his domains back then

feral lintel
#

Scalykind? Interesting

jagged apex
#

but being true neutral it is not likely he would do so in a way that is tricky like say some other gods like loki

feral lintel
#

Loki is CE iirc

late wasp
#

I'd say probably chaotic neutral

jagged apex
#

well factually sardior is true netural

feral lintel
late wasp
#

Bahamut is lg

#

Tiamat is the opposite

jagged apex
#

anything you rule for your own game, is for your game

#

tiamat is both lawful evil and chaotic evil, simultaneously

feral lintel
#

Tiamat is interesting, since- oh beaten to it

late wasp
#

Really?

jagged apex
#

yes

late wasp
#

I did not know that lol

#

How does that work?

jagged apex
#

at least that is what is listed

fluid atlas
#

Do we know what the alignment planes look like?

feral lintel
#

(Her statblocks have listed both CE and LE before as well)

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

presumably is do in part to being the queen of all evil dragons, and having multiple heads, each able to act independently but are all still part of one consciousness

fluid atlas
jagged apex
#

yes

fluid atlas
#

Or am I misunderstanding

feral lintel
#

actually, is there a NE chromatic dragon?

fluid atlas
#

Oh I thought they were different things, good to know

jagged apex
late wasp
iron saffron
jagged apex
#

but tiamat mainly chooses, at least in the forgotten realms and most other settings to represent the 5 major chromatic dragons

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

theyre CE

#

Ig the closest would be Purple/deep?

jagged apex
#

white dragons are chaotic evil on average

iron saffron
#

Tiamat has been LE since 1E and the 5E PHB/DMG lists her as LE. However, the Tyranny of Dragons' and Fizban's statblocks for her aspects lists her as CE.

feral lintel
#

Blue and Green are LE
Red, White, and Black are CE on average

#

Yeah, ig deep/purple

#

for NE

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

Keep forgetting there are more colors. We need the whole flag up in 'ere!

jagged apex
#

honestly given the way her and her many heads work, it makes sense that she could effectively be two or more alignments simaltaniously

#

at least far as i can tell, and would make for interesting explanation for those things in print contradicting since usually creatures are not listed with more than one alignment if they are not listed as "any"

late wasp
#

All the chromatic dragons are guaranteed to be predisposed to evil, right?

#

It's that do in part to the influence of tiamat or just their nature?

jagged apex
#

not really

#

as i mentioned, there are some chromatic dragon types that are NOT of evil alginment

#

though they only really appeared in older editions and were not used in official published material since 2e or 3e depending on which chromatic, with the gray just being changed to out right evil in 4e, because well, 4e

late wasp
#

With them being classified as chromatic, tiamat would have reign over them though, no?

jagged apex
#

but tiamat is the queen and goddess of all evil dragons, which largely includes chromatics

late wasp
#

Oh only evil?

#

I thought she was the goddess of just chromatic dragons

jagged apex
#

eh, well all chromatics aknowledge her as their queen

#

at least last i checked

#

well is wider than that, is why her avatar of choice, that you see in 5e, has a wyvern's stinger on her tail

#

she effectively claims them as hers

late wasp
#

Okay, so it's not some godly influence or anything, the dragons simply acknowledge her power and choose to serve?

jagged apex
#

and wyverns were only evil in 1 and 2e, so some things just become status quo

#

her portfolio back in 3e, when such details were still commonly listed for the gods include "Chessenta, evil dragons, evil reptiles, greed"

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

to my knowledge all chromatics tend to be greedy in some regard, so that presumably covers any that are not technically evil

#

heck even good aligned dragons are often greedy in a way

feral lintel
#

greed isnt really a evil/good thing

late wasp
#

What would the odds be of a dragon growing up either differently or going through an experience that would change its alignment, if that's even possible?

feral lintel
#

its just there

iron saffron
#

All dragons hoard wealth regardless of their alignment. Fizban's expanded that their hoard actually empowers them.

jagged apex
iron saffron
feral lintel
#

And since many humanoid races also covet or suffer from dragons razing areas to increase those hordes, theyve been especially called out as greedy by them

jagged apex
#

but he has not really been used in official materials on time, especially since like most of the other dragon gods, he lost most if not all his influence in the realms for not doing anything about the dracorage mythal that constantly was causing the dragon race to basically butcher itself

feral lintel
#

There arent much dragon gods even in Krynn

late wasp
#

Ok, so with all this in mind, I have a plot I've been working on for some time and want thoughts on, but would I take that to #dm-world-building ?

feral lintel
#

Yeap

late wasp
#

Ok, thanks.

feral lintel
#

Worldbuilding is worldbuilding

jagged apex
#

well krynn is a different setting and honestly could be the other gods never bothered to get involved in that setting

feral lintel
#

I remember there being a god who looks like a minotaur

jagged apex
#

especially since to my knowledge that is one of the settings where both bahamut and tiamat, or their aspects in that setting are at their most powerful, so given they are always in conflict across many worlds, i could see them not even bothering to try to set up a faith there

#

would not only be bound to fail but potentially cause who knows what to happen with them being there in the front row so to speak for one of their fights, even if they did not fight directly

iron saffron
feral lintel
jagged apex
#

i think he means Kiri-Jolith, who is the god of war on krynn

#

in the first chapter of shadow of the dragon queen

feral lintel
#

Yeah, thats the one

#

Thought she looked like if Ephara mixed into Mogis lmao

jagged apex
#

she

#

according to the description, they use female pronouns

feral lintel
#

Oh, didnt realize that

#

whoops

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

Kiri-Jolith, krynn's god of war

feral lintel
#

Scarlet found it

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

odd, guess they changed that for the 5e continuity

iron saffron
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

jagged apex
#

oh, wait, i misread the text, my bad

#

"KIRI-JOLITH, GOD OF WAR, IS ONE OF MANY DEITIES SEEKING FOLLOWERS TO CARRY THEIR FAITH BACK TO KRYNN" end quote
don't know why i read their as her, i blame this soar throat and seemingly cold or fever i have been dealing with since yesterday

storm dagger
#

Called a He for sure in Shadow of the Dragon Queen just checked

jagged apex
#

yeah, like i said after realizing it, i misread it initially

gentle trench
#

So... lorewise, how do demons enter into Avernus? I know sometimes portals, and that its connected so Crokek'toeck can traverse the river and spit out demons..., but what else? Do they have infernal war machines themselves that can come through the styx?

jagged apex
#

first part yes, and demons don't have infernal war machines, at least to my knowledge that is exlusively devils and not sure if it protects at all from the effects of the styx, though usually they have to pay the Merrenoloths for safe passage

jagged apex
#

this is the main way forces, to my understanding are transported from one plane to another for the blood war, especially in the case of demons going to attack avernus

gentle trench
#

hmm, thanks!

lucid wind
#

RIGHT

#

I need help getting grasp on Mystara

#

Is there any elder wizards that studies this archaic textd

iron saffron
#

What are you referring to "archaic text"?

fluid atlas
#

I think it’s a joke about them struggling to understand Mystara lore

iron saffron
lucid wind
#

I meant like

#

Character backstory and stuff

#

I got a campaign coming up and I managed to land Mystara as my character's homeworkd

iron saffron
#

Sure, check that wiki to learn about that campaign setting.

verbal barn
#

Who are the premiere gods of fire in the forgotten realms setting?

jagged apex
jagged apex
verbal barn
iron saffron
#

Surtur is a god so yes.

feral lintel
#

He's the same one as Norse Surtur, right?

iron saffron
#

Yes, based on that one.

feral lintel
#

Gotcha. With the prescence of Outsider and Interloper beings, it has always confused me

jagged apex
#

Surtur is one of the giant gods, which all are divine children of Annam the all father, from his various sired children from worlds other than toril, in dnd Surtur and Thrym being twin brothers

iron saffron
#

D&D has always been influenced/inspired by real worth folklore and myths but more often than not with broad strokes than 1:1.

jagged apex
#

partially from a meta side, do to a number of creatures that are separate in dnd, just happen to in our world often have the same name as an unrelated creature from another culture, so being a sort of melting pot and a work of fiction, it just makes more sense for dnd to often have their own versions of these beings rather than trying to make them 1 to 1, not to mention less chance of actually offending people or entire cultures

iron saffron
#

In European folklore creatures like goblins, hobgoblins, and trolls would be interchangeable but Gygax made them distinct creatures in D&D.

jagged apex
#

plus also makes it easier for there to be more interesting stories by not being bound to the letter of the source material

#

basically dnd's versions are inspired off their real world mythological counterparts rather than ment to be the same, they are only really one in the same in so far as how they relate to dnd's version of earth, as while it is not our reality, it is a canonical place in the dnd multiverse https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Earth

iron saffron
#

Well, sometimes they took the source literally and got sued — see Tolkien, Elric, and Cthulhu (technically the latter was already in public domain but the license was to Chaosium at the time). The 1E Deities & Demigods 2nd printing had removed the Cthulhu and Melnibonéan stuff.

jagged apex
#

yeah, is why in somecases older editions halflings as we know them as now, were called hobbits

#

so having their own spin on these creatures not only makes it easier to fit into their whole multiverse unless they wanna bind them to a specific setting, but saves them a number of pains of having to deal with in one way or another down the line

verbal barn
jagged apex
#

Titans are their own kind of giant, the highest ranking historically of true giants