#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 55 of 1

round void
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i couldnt find the answer bc it didnt exist LOL

visual breach
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Does the current dnd have a year we are in?

iron saffron
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Are you referring to Forgotten Realms setting?

visual breach
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Yes forgotten Realms.

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Is time travel a form of divination magic? Wouldn’t gods hate mortals using time travel? Ok I’ll stop asking silly questions. Have a great night.

iron saffron
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Time travel isn't really a thing in D&D (there are cases it has happened and of course there's time dragons).

round void
astral girder
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What eilistraee thinks of drider ? Did a sane drider can worship her?

modest badger
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A good question.
In 5e and pre 4e lore, being a Drider is a punishment for failing lolth, typically inflicted on those drow who were skilled enough to take her trails but failed to show either enough loyalty or impress her.

Elistraee might have sympathy for them, as some might be drow who were not supportive of lolth and punished for it- but others could be lolth fanatics made all the more dangerous by their increased urge to redeem themselves.

I can't recall anything off the top of my head official on her stance.

astral girder
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Thanks ^^

jagged apex
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so to answer the first part of that question, no it is not a form of divination magic

versed hare
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Are there any 5e sources for the current state of neverwinter ?

iron saffron
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I don't believe so

feral lintel
rain silo
versed hare
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Ahh 3 campaigns I haven't read in case I get to play them

sharp owl
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SCAG isn't a campaign, it's a setting book
Disregard, can't read

rain silo
sharp owl
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Ah, ty

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lol

rain silo
strange rose
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SCAG is largely the "player's guide to the Sword Coast." Not too much in the way of DM-only info for adventure hooks and whatnot. SKT has more of that.

rain silo
thick wedge
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Hey everyone, can someone promptly explain to me the role of demons in D&D? Specifically their relationships with Gods

unkempt merlin
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Varies depending on the setting.
But across a few of them there is a thing called the blood war, where demons and devils fight one another. The forces of the heavens generally stay uninvolved because the demons and devils keep each other at something of a stalemate, preventing them from doing anything worse.

There are also gods who directly control (or otherwise also are) demons, namely Lolth

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And there is Asmodeus, who is also a god and the devil of all devils

thick wedge
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Hmmmm, I see, thank you

fluid atlas
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Has Mystara been mentioned at all in any 5e sources? Even in passing?

strange rose
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in passing? Yes, in the first chapter of the Player's Handbook.

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and the Dungeon Master's Guide as well

fluid atlas
crude blaze
fluid atlas
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I’ll check those out, thanks

strange rose
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really only to the extent that the setting exists and not much more than that

fluid atlas
crude blaze
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Sorry, misread

fluid atlas
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All good

crude blaze
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But no, otherwise I think Mystara was only mentioned in the DMG

unkempt merlin
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There's a brief mention of its world in one of the adventures ||witchlight||, but it's literally just one mention. Akin to saying "the forgotten realms"

fluid atlas
calm crest
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Mystara is a neat setting. Worth noting that some monsters in 5e like nightwalkers and neh-thalggu originally appeared in Mystara, but nothing about this is mentioned in the newest materials due to being setting generic.

pale stump
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the gods mostly try to stay out of fiendish/blood war affairs

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they tried getting more involved in the past but it didn't really go well

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as someone else mentioned, Lolth is a demon and also a goddess

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but it's not like she's the goddess of all demons, she only rules a single of the Abyss' (the place demons come from) endless layers

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most demons don't serve any deity

iron saffron
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The gods are happy with the status quo of the Blood War between the devils and demons because keeps the demons at bay from invading the rest of the multiverse.

iron saffron
pale stump
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didn't know that, thank you

pale stump
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but it ended badly

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IDR how exactly

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so now they don't

hazy apex
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How could a szarkai be a bhaalspawn and worship eilistraee? The 3 of those seem mutually exclusive.

iron saffron
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"What if" situations isn't really a lore thing.

hazy apex
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The question is how it would be possible.

iron saffron
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There are no more Bhaalspawns.

Viekang attacked Grand Duke Adrian while he was giving a speech to the Baldurian people, and the two got into a vicious battle. While it was unknown who killed who, only one of the Bhaalspawn remained. That one transformed into the Bhaalspawn Slayer and fulfilled the prophecy so long after Bhaal's mortal death. The Lord of Murder was reborn and returned to the Faerûnian pantheon

hazy apex
iron saffron
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BG3 is its own lore.

hazy apex
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Whatever the case I just want to make what I said work.

iron saffron
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Again, "what if" situations isn't really a lore thing. We can break down what is a szarkai, a bhaalspawn, and a worshipper of Eilistraee. But the "what if" a character is all three is more of a #character-discussion topic.

hazy apex
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It can be happening when he's still alive idc

hazy apex
iron saffron
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Well, you want to create a character that is all three things than it would be a #character-discussion topic.

hazy apex
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I said that

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They told me to go here because nobody there knows lore

iron saffron
hazy apex
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Szarkai are often connected to llolth, so the way I see it, there's bhaal, eilistraee and llolth all fighting for influence.

iron saffron
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Well, you answered your own question then if you see that all drow are worshippers of Lolth (they've never been since their introduction in 1E Vault of the Drow... some drow worship other deities, such as the high priestess Eclavdra worshipping the Elder Elemental Eye (aka Tharizdun) and Iuz).

hazy apex
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i didn't, because my question is how to resolve it.

iron saffron
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Again, that would be a #character-discussion discussion.
Lore just tells you what those three factions are. How you the player mix them together into something narratively cohesive as a PC/NPC is up to you.

jagged apex
# hazy apex Szarkai are often connected to llolth, so the way I see it, there's bhaal, eilis...

they honestly are not, only ones maybe in conflict would be lolth and eilistraee, bhaal usually is not involved with their deity in any way, at least not them specifically, if a bhaalspawn were to worship eilistraee, though basically the only thing likely certain is that bhaal's own bloodlust would lead those bhaalspawn to kill, as even in the lore that is a sort of universal trait that comes with being a bhaalspawn

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so it would more so be the spawn fighting against the inherent influence the lord of murder would have on them, even if minor, more than anything

iron saffron
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Again, not all drow worship Lolth. The commoners living in a drow city may pay lip service to the church of Lolth and its priestesses though for the sake of survival.

jagged apex
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plus any individual, drow included, is able to defy their norms, drizzt is the most well known example of this in regards to drow

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plus there are technically cities of the drow in the underdark that are dedicated to gods, usually of the dark seldarine, other than lolth and i believe, if memory servers one that is centered around none

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in recent years they have basically been showing that lolth's grip on the drow is not as iron clad as she may wish them or others to believe

iron saffron
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D&D is creationist where creator gods create races in their image but the individuals aren't obligated to follow their creator deities.

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Yes, even in earlier editions other drow cities have patron gods who aren't Lolth, usually one of the other Dark Seldarine.

jagged apex
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plus lolth did not create the drow, she corrupted dark elves over many generations to cause the drow that worship her at least to exist in the modern day that we are most familiar with, some drow cultures how ever have been revealed to have been untouched by her influence, presumably cuz of their secretiveness that makes them only recently known of and thus why we are just now getting info on them

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she may have the drow in her portfolio, but that does not mean she can just bend all drow to her will

iron saffron
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Worshippers of Eilistraee aren't that rare. She has a substantial number of followers in many Faerunian cities:

Eilistraee was most commonly worshiped in Cormanthor among the drow there, in the Dalelands among the half-elves, in Waterdeep and Skullport, and had a following among the Aevendrow of Callidae as well. She also had followers (mostly humans, elves, and half-elves) living in Silverymoon and its surroundings.

jagged apex
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yeah and despite the bigotry of many people in the realms and on toril as a whole, over time her worship has become more well known and accepted over the years

iron saffron
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Yeah, dark elves (Ilythiir) =/= drow. They're not mutually exclusive since the drow (at least of FR lore) are descended from the Ilythiir.

jagged apex
iron saffron
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That's why Eilistraee is one of my favourite D&D deities. Greenwood created her to be a counterbalance to Lolth and having Eilistraee want to help the drow under her mother's influence.

jagged apex
jagged apex
iron saffron
jagged apex
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obviously a bit of an uphill battle given how the realms is quite a ways from not resorting to stereotypes more often than not for entire peoples and what not, but is cool that she does not let that fact discourage her or her faithful from her cause

jagged apex
iron saffron
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He became a lich after his daughter was born (obviously...)

jagged apex
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one thing i am curious is if he sent her away before or after his transformation into undead, which i don't believe Ed mentioned in his video

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but if it was after, that speaks volumes to how much he cared for his daughter, since in undeath their nature would have been twisted towards a more evil nature if he turned into a typical lich rather than say an archlich

iron saffron
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He's listed as CE but it seems that he cared more about his arcane studies than moustache-twirling plots:

Calimar had little interest in the everyday politics of the city and the Conclave. Instead, he concentrated on studying the mysteries of magic, devoting himself to the goddess Mystra

hazy apex
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maybe i could make the argument that someone struggling with the dark impulses of a bhaalspawn and being raised under llolth would be a bigger target for eilistraee trying to help them

iron saffron
jagged apex
jagged apex
iron saffron
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Probably why he gave his daughter up for adoption...

jagged apex
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indeed

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cuz you can only remain sane so long as a lich, eventually you are bound to slip on feeding your phylactery i'd imagine, forever is a long time, you are bound to miss that at least once every 10 years feeding at some point, and obviously the longer she stayed with him the more danger she'd be in for any number of reasons, so smart and selfless move on his part

iron saffron
jagged apex
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though those i believe usually involve the gods don't they?

jagged apex
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besides, lolth's society really only has a problem with things like murder if you get caught or it can otherwise be traced back to you

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a drow bhaalspawn born under such society would likely be encourage to hone and control this bloodlust rather than fight it entirely, probably being manipulated by a noble into some sort of personal assassin most likely, would largely come down to how they were raised and how that would influence who they would grow up to be as a person

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though seems next to nothing is described about their early life

quartz niche
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Where does a bards magic come from?

iron saffron
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Through their art (music, song, dance).

Whether scholar, skald, or scoundrel, a bard weaves magic through words and music to inspire allies, demoralize foes, manipulate minds, create illusions, and even heal wounds.

In the worlds of D&D, words and music are not just vibrations of air, but vocalizations with power all their own. The bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain. Bards say that the multiverse was spoken into existence, that the words of the gods gave it shape, and that echoes of these primordial Words of Creation still resound throughout the cosmos. The music of bards is an attempt to snatch and harness those echoes, subtly woven into their spells and powers.

quartz niche
iron saffron
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That is a more gameplay oriented question. They know spells like sorcerers rather than learning new spells like wizards.

The narrative flavour answer is through college.

quartz niche
jagged apex
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so i'd suggest giving that a watch as it may give you a solid idea, certainly couldn't hurt

iron saffron
astral girder
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Did a mortal family who have the blood of a chromatic dragon but are against tiamat ( like, have fight her cult for century) can pray bahamuth or the fact they are decendent of a chroma dragon will make bahamuth hate them?

jagged apex
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he would definitely see their actions against his sister/rival, of more importance than any chromatic blood they may have

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at least i am presuming you ment bahamut

astral girder
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Thanks you ^^ it for a familly i create, one of their son is a paladin, it was suppose to be one of lathandre but i guess bahamuth will make more sense given their history with tiamat

jagged apex
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bahamut

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there is no second h

astral girder
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Sorry, yes bahamut

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What metalic dragon will thinks of them ?

jagged apex
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depends, both in terms of what breed and the individual, cuz while there are certain personality norms for them, any individual can stray from these behavioral norms

astral girder
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So i guess some will be cool with it and some will be not so accepting ?

jagged apex
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more or less, but their good acts would likely do them only good in terms of the perception they have of that person

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though i am assuming this person wiht draconic blood is not a half dragon as that is very different from say a draconic sorcerer or a dragonborn

astral girder
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No they are not half dragon. Great great grandpa was, but they are not, but a lot of them are draconic sorcere. Idk if that work that way, but it is their history

jagged apex
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not sure if dragon blood in that regard would effect them the same way it would a half dragon, often the mental state of the person if they are a half dragon is influenced by the behavior norms of the kind of dragon their draconic heritage is from, so not sure if that would be a factor, if you find someone else that might know, could be worth checking, but otherwise it would not make them any more prone to any sort of evil acts than a typical non draconic humanoid

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is a bit weird cuz sometimes things can get into the blood via non biological means, especially magic, is how it is at times with the likes of tieflings and genasi, presumably could be the same for draconic bloodline sorcerers but far as i know nothing prevents it from being biological, just not sure how the things like half dragon blood impact later generations as half-dragons normally are sterile and need to use magical or otherwise unnatural means to sire children

astral girder
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Yes, i know that they are suppose to be sterile but i kindda love their story, so he was build different. I like the idea of dragon blood affect their personaily though ^^ mayby not evil, but like shiny thing and being a little bit arrogant is working well for them

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Thanks you ^^

jagged apex
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well if the blood does still effect their mental state, presumably such personalities would be similar to half dragons of the same kind, to partially quote the current 5e monster manual lore on that topic "Half-dragons inherit personality traits common to their draconic heritage, so that half-gold dragons are often shy and secretive, while half-copper dragons are impish and playful. Half-green dragons are deceitful, while half-white dragons are often dim-witted brutes. These traits are tempered by a half-dragon’s other lineage, but greed, arrogance, and paranoia are qualities that even good-aligned half-dragons often possess." end quote

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again, no idea what the official case is on the matter if one is decondensed from a half-dragon, as it potentially could be influenced by what ever means they used to allow themselves to halve a child, might not, but far as i know we got nothing official on the matter so that is largely gunna be more so the realms of speculation

warm fern
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Can people with souls born in a Domain of Dread leave? Asking because thinking of making a character who comes from a Domain

fluid atlas
iron saffron
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Vecna and Lord Soth managed to leave their Domains of Dread and escape the Mists.

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The Vistani can voluntarily leave the Mists to other worlds.

jagged apex
jagged apex
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Vecna managed to in his case escape via a divine loophole of sorts, and Soth got let out cuz he became desensitized to the torment they were drawing from him, cuz Darklord is a role that also is basically a prisoner that the suffering of feeds the dark powers' power

jagged apex
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like most vistani you meet tend to not be willing to share their means of safely traveling, but some are willing to con you into buying something they claim with protect you from the mists or allow you to traverse them, usually those customers don't survive long enough to come back complaining it didn't work, if you catch my drift

fluid perch
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So a pretty common fey theme is stealing babies. What do they do with the babies?

fluid atlas
iron saffron
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Hags are based on European folklore -- they use children to reproduce (see Hexblood).

jagged apex
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though more traditional hag reproduction involves them eating the baby whole, hexbloods are something else technically

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hexbloods also are capable ove being created via means that do not involve hags at all

smoky rover
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@sharp owl beep-beep

modest badger
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@smoky rover
Planets were always canon (although called 'bodies' like 'earth body' and 'water body') And now there are essentially 'bubbles' of material plane that overlap the astral plane creating wildspace.
You can spelljam out of one wildspace 'bubble' into the astral, and then into another wildspace section.

sharp owl
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Yeah, the following aspects have been removed:

  • Crystal spheres
  • The phlogiston
modest badger
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(Abusing image permissions, because this really helps show it more)

sharp owl
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Instead there's a "three-stage" system

  1. A world/body/planet - exists on the material plane/at the material plane level. The 'edge' of the atmosphere roughly represents the transition from the material plane to Wildspace
  2. Wildspace - this is the overlap between the material plane and the astral sea. Corresponds roughly to a solar/planetary system. Has a transitionary boundary at the edge into the Astral Sea
  3. Astral Sea - The region beyond a Wildspace system
  4. Astral Plane - Term encompassing Wildspace and the Astral Sea
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All Wildspace systems exist in the material plane like bubbles floating in the Astral Sea. Like bubbles, they all contain air, but not the same air. Except the 'air' is the material plane

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Wildspace functions a lot like normal space; no gravity, no air, various heavenly bodies. There's also a lot of "life" and threats
The Astral Sea is much more like magical hyperspace/warp space; you can travel faster by sheer power of thought, you don't age or grow hungry or thirst, less going on but it's generally more threatening. No asteroids or space whales, but instead astral dominons, corpses of dead gods, and astral dreadnoughts

rich panther
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Hey guys. I need help about the right book of the part of drizzt do‘urden leaves the underdark. Can somebody tell me the title of the book? Thanks in advance

modest badger
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Drizzt Do'Urden or is this an obscure parody character

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If Drizzt, then you'll want Sojourn

warm hawk
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How do Clerics of Shar behave? I'm playing one and Idk what I want him to do. He's supposed to be someone who was roped into this and only does it because he has nowhere else to go. And he's currently in a selune worshipping town.

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I'd imagine something like Jedi and Sith where the Jedi meditate while Sith seethe

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Etc etc

iron saffron
strange rose
# warm hawk How do Clerics of Shar behave? I'm playing one and Idk what I want him to do. He...

There is more info on the clergy of Shar (and other deities) in Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms, but here is the creed of Shar from that book:

Darkness is your cloak and your spur to action. Strike down the moon and those who serve it, and work against laws and law keepers, rulers and the powerful, by corrupting them and sewing dissension. Weave discord through secrets and rumors and falsehoods, so that all that is now mighty shall in time be swept away, and all that will remain is the darkness of Shar. Work in secret when necessary, obey your superiors in the Night Church without question or defiance, and give your life when Shar deems it needful, for you will reap her Dark Reward.

The book has more info about Shar herself and the secular aims of her clergy. Highly suggest picking it up on the DM's Guild.

warm hawk
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Do they tend to be violent? Cunning? Calm? All of thd above?

strange rose
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another relevant quote:

Priests of the Night Church are encouraged to sow discord and weaken order and respect for laws. They do this by abetting rebels; murdering peacemakers, trade negotiators, and accomplished diplomats; goading those engaged in feuds into deeper bloodshed; and spreading hatred-of-outlander rumors. Those they kill should always know they are being slain in the name of Shar, not taken when asleep or unawares. Indeed, if these deaths aren’t intended to foment strife by being mistaken for the work of someone else, Martyrs write the name of Shar in the victim’s blood beside the body.

strange rose
warm hawk
strange rose
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I'm sure that or Stealth or both would come in handy, yes

eager bay
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Are the planes the same for every world in the D&D universe?

feral lintel
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Nope

iron saffron
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There are different cosmologies, such as the Wheel Tree (used by the Forgotten Realms campaign setting from 1E to 4E) and the Great Wheel (used by Greyhawk and 5E FR), used by different campaign settings.

Each cosmology has a different set of planes.

jagged apex
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though by default, at least last i checked, published materials share the same planes, with exceptions such as the selfcontained eberron setting, mainly cuz those settings share cosmologies, again eberron being one known exception

iron saffron
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The Planescape campaign setting uses the Great Wheel, at least with the Outer Planes.

eager bay
iron saffron
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Ravnica is MtG and isn't in D&D multiverse proper.

obsidian gate
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Its a bit complicated. Because for example, eberron has its own set of planes, but its possible, if difficult to travel from there to the lets say Faerun. So technically, the great wheel planes also exist for campaigns in ebberon, though they are almost unreachable

feral lintel
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Ravnica and Theros are collaborations of MtG and DnD

jagged apex
# eager bay What about ravnica?

completely different multiverse and kind of wonky at best via the adventure that specifically was made connecting it to toril in the forgotten realms, which is wonky cuz was made by the mtg team and not the dnd team

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the mtg setting cross over books are not a part of the dnd multiverse proper

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is more for like what if you wanted to play dnd in those specific mtg settings using dnd's systems

iron saffron
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Just because an IP uses D&D rules doesn't necessarily mean it's part of D&D multiverse proper -- TSR/WotC had published 3rd party IPs in the past such as Diablo, Red Sonja, and Conan the Barbarian...

eager bay
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What about Theros? Same case?

iron saffron
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That's a MtG IP.

jagged apex
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plus mtg and dnd's multiverses work fundamentally different and terms are different as are many concepts

iron saffron
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The power levels are different (see MtG's Planewalkers).

jagged apex
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like in your own games you can connect them, but objectively in the lore of published material there is no confirmed connection

eager bay
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Look. I'm confused

jagged apex
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closest thing you have is the free cross over adventure series i mentioned, but is wonky at best cuz it was made by the mtg team and NOT the dnd team

eager bay
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Do all worlds share the same planes or not?

feral lintel
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No?

eager bay
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Excluding Mtg and Ebberon I mean

jagged apex
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it depends, largely if is a selfcontained setting or not

feral lintel
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Each plane is its own world, iirc

jagged apex
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also world does not equal setting

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some settings have MULTIPLE worlds

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forgotten realms being one such setting

feral lintel
iron saffron
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Toril has multiple campaign settings.

feral lintel
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Many continents

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although i do wish we get to explore more of them in 5e

iron saffron
feral lintel
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Oh, so even bigger scale, got it

obsidian gate
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so there are basically two sets of world.

those that share the same cosmology, like FR or greyhawk. Same planes for them
those with different cosmology, like Mtg settings or eberron. They are still part of the DnD multiverse, but separated.

iron saffron
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Krynn (Dragonlance), Toril (Forgotten Realms) and Oerth (Greyhawk) are all separate worlds (aka planets) in the same Material Plane. Each of them reside in their own star system, much like our Earth is in the Solar System.

eager bay
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Are there undiscovered planes?

feral lintel
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There probably are, but being undiscovered, probably not written down or recorded

iron saffron
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The Far Realm.

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Cosmologies are meta -- they can change with editions.

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With the change doesn't mean the planes disappear but rather how they're organized are (see World Tree to Great Wheel cosmology in FR)

jagged apex
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and in universe are more so a construct made by mortal scholars to try to understand the cosmos and it's structure

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like given the way they connect and the ways one travels between them, the physical construct of how they connect is rarely even mentioned or something that matters

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at least to my knowledge

empty stone
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All Crystal Spheres/Solar Systems exist in the Prime Material Plane.
Toril, Krynn, Oerth, Mystara, Earth, Athas, etc.

crude sierra
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hey fam

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i seek aid

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i am going to be playing the new vecna module starting friday and im excited

empty stone
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Need some Vecna lore?

crude sierra
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im gonna be playing a life cleric, and i chose Pelor as my deity cuz i read that he and vecna have emnity between each other

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good choice?

feral lintel
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

iron saffron
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If the adventure starts in the Forgotten Realms, Pelor isn't a god in that setting.

crude sierra
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like i see theres more lore between him and the raven queen, but my character isnt super raven queenish

feral lintel
iron saffron
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Pelor is a god of the Greyhawk setting.

crude sierra
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hmm

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is there another like, god of life and light that is an enemy of vecna?

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like, lathander?

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ilmater?

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my mom?

iron saffron
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Vecna doesn't really have a presence in Forgotten Realms.

empty stone
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It's not unheard of that some people worship gods from other planets. Many of Earth's pantheons are worshiped on Toril.

crude sierra
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i heard also that in the new vecna adventure ||its a multiverse thing|| so i feel like its fine?

iron saffron
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But Ao controls who can be a deity in Realmspace.

crude sierra
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but yeah, just wanted to like, ask for deity reccomendations

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cuz i dunno if pelor is like, maximum lore juice

iron saffron
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I already told you that Pelor isn't a god in Realmspace and the adventure starts in FR.

crude sierra
jagged apex
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but that would be something to run by and along side your dm, as they may not want 4e lore being pulled in, and he has not really had any appearance in the realms published materials since 4e it seems

iron saffron
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Only referenced, including BG3...

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And much of 4E FR lore was retconned / reverted with 5E.

jagged apex
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which is the closest thing to him being refferenced in the realms during 5e, but that is a specific continuity

crude sierra
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hmmmm

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maybe the raaven queen would be better after all?

jagged apex
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though supposedly that shrine of his in sigil is still there and given the level the adventure starts at, a worshiper of his being toril would not be entirely impossible, else a god of the same domains could grant the power to the cleric on behalf of their actual god while in that setting, lest from what i am aware, but i learned of that via lore videos from the likes of AJ pickett so am not certain on if it holds true

#

far as i can tell, Lathander would more than likely be willing to support a fight against vecna, given his view of the undead, and vecna was a lich before he became a god on top of that

empty stone
#

I went dragon hunting, and i think it's kinda crazy how D&D doesn't fully utilize the collection of dragons it's had in its lifetime more into the rest of the lore.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1245064852704202812/DND_True_Dragons.png?ex=66576481&is=66561301&hm=4bf443cb19b7630a019313a62a58aa8092e25e48d522168129a6aaccfb53405d&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1245064853014446100/DND_Lesser_Dragons.png?ex=66576481&is=66561301&hm=41029ac95b941ad273c6298127f3821454f4daecc462f7f189c7529f22dd3ba3&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789051798631088149/1245065018337136640/Dragonkind_Related_Creatures.png?ex=665764a8&is=66561328&hm=a3726c8870831c0f87c53e9d4e8d8d5cb12cdf5aa2450d87661f09b31a3f2d71&

feral lintel
#

Yeah, my biggest complaint with Fizbans was not a lot of the cool dragons

#

Especially Lung

iron saffron
#

Older editions had more dragons and "lesser" dragons.

jagged apex
#

they have limitations with how much they can put in each book, fizban's was no exception, and some are setting specific of settings they are hesitant to touch for a number of reasons, and not everything can easily be made more setting agnostic even when adapting it for a new continuity

iron saffron
feral lintel
#

Dies in 1d4 cringe retcon damage

iron saffron
#

"Oh, they were just silver dragons..."

jagged apex
#

5e's life cycle is not over yet, so there is the chance to get more, plus there is things like the revealed artwork for the redesign of the 5e gold dragons, which balances both it's western and eastern designs from years gone by

feral lintel
jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

Fizbans didn't explicitly retcon song dragons

iron saffron
unkempt merlin
#

It just "suggested" they might be some other metallic.

It did a similar thing for Steel, despite there being a steel dragon existing in 5e already

#

It's one of the incredibly annoying things that comes from the "In universe" author comments in 5e books

feral lintel
unkempt merlin
#

A lot of them are simply incorrect facts

jagged apex
#

one reason they likely did not commit to to it was partially cuz of they were probably already pressed for space of what they wanted in the book

iron saffron
#

In the world of the Forgotten Realms, stories speak of “weredragons” or “song dragons,” which are variously described as “beautiful humans transformed into dragons” or as a distinct variety of metallic dragon. The world of Greyhawk has legends of similar dragons, called either Greyhawk dragons or steel dragons, which are said to favor life among Humanoids in the hustle and bustle of great cities.

The creatures featured in these legends are almost certainly copper, silver, or other metallic dragons who simply favored that particular form. Some dragons even seem to prefer Humanoid form to their own and delight in surrounding themselves with companions who can answer their endless questions about Humanoid art, culture, history, and politics.

unkempt merlin
#

Yea

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

The mechanics was a passing comment

jagged apex
#

fair

#

conceptionally, i liked it, it made sense and kind of in a way consolidated cataclysm dragons from past editions in the way their power sort of starts spilling out of their body a bit

#

but as i said earlier, to each their own, such is the nature of opinions

empty stone
#

Purple Dragons and Ectoplastic dragons of the past have the coolest breaths i've seen, and i would love to see them be canon again just because of that.

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

they still are, just not the way you know at least in the 5e continuity, there is not 1 definitive canon in dnd, there are multiple continuities, each just as valid

jagged apex
#

is just so cool just by how outlandish it seems by comparison to most other well known dragons

iron saffron
#

I wouldn't say there's multiple continuties -- each succeeding editon often adds, overrides, or retcons previous editions' lore

jagged apex
#

but they are also separate from one another, especially with other forms of media, so saying there are multiple continuities seems pretty accurate to me, weather they build off of or borrow stuff that came before does not change that

unkempt merlin
#

The way that Fizbans both A) actually references them (something 5e books tend to not do when something is entirely removed) and B) uses incredibly light wording that doesn't even explicitly remove them suggests to me that they were wanting to give acknowledgement to them without feeling the pressure (from themselves) to include a new set of mechanics

Especially with the steel dragon thing, because 5e very explicitly has already featured them

jagged apex
#

far as i am aware each edition is as much it's own continuity as it is a continuation

iron saffron
#

I don't see why they're need to be different continuity. Again, each succeeding edition adds, overrides, or retcons.

feral lintel
#

Didnt we also get a blueberry dragon?

jagged apex
#

yeah, from an extra life thing, not sure if that is ment to slot into the lore or just be it's own things dms can do what they will with it

jagged apex
#

they even went out of their way to point out there are multiple continuities when they came out and did that whole article on canon

iron saffron
#

Then it's like going back in time with the lore of that edition...

jagged apex
#

anyways, technically the blue berrydragon we got is a named individual, Sheldon

iron saffron
#

Edition rulesets is the game mechanic aspect of the game. I'm sure I can run a campaign using 3.5E rules but with the 5E timeline.

jagged apex
#

so no idea if there are ment to be other such dragons, for all we know could just be he is a blueberry dragon cuz sheldon certianly loves his blueberries

empty stone
#

Berry Dragon? We got berry dragons?

#

sounds charming

covert island
#

I miss the Bee Wyvern with the Bee breath attack

feral lintel
#

We had one of those?!

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

we only got one, technically, Shelodon the Blueberry, from "Misplaced Monsters: Volume One"

#

again, no idea if there are supposidly other blueberry dragons or even what that means, just that there is one known for it, named sheldon

unkempt merlin
#

Again, it's not a lore thing

#

It's literally just them making statblocks from kids art

#

It says as much

empty stone
#

Wherever that dragon came from, i'm just gonna call that crystal sphere "Kidspace"

jagged apex
#

well they do have their own bits of lore attached to them, but yeah far as i know they are not technically part of the lore proper and even if they are, they never describe the dragon beyond the individual

unkempt merlin
#

"Having lore" =/= "being a part of dnd lore"

#

The "lore" of them is just whatever the kids wrote

#

The source explains why these statblocks exist

cinder cloud
#

@iron saffron

iron saffron
#

Thanks. Oh, I already saw this.

eager bay
#

Which domain of dread is the oldest lore wise?

iron saffron
earnest sinew
#

DND has lore?????

feral lintel
#

Yes

iron saffron
#

It has lore for the past 50 year since Greyhawk and Blackmoor (which were originally the personal campaigns of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, respectively).

teal rock
#

What would be the environmental risks of traveling to the Elemental Plane of Earth?

feral lintel
#

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Elemental_Plane_of_Earth

The Elemental Plane of Earth was an infinite expanse of solid matter pockmarked by bubbles of other elements and riddled with fissures and tunnels created by burrowing creatures or the occasional small mining operation.[21][35] Ensconced in a few of these pockets were trading outposts and the rare hidden wizard fortress.[19] Solid does not imply stationary: the substances of this plane were constantly moving in a slow, grinding motion punctuated by earthquakes from small tremors to massively violent upheavals.[4][36] Open spaces were gradually filled by the relentless shifting[19][35] (or marauding earth elementals)[15] unless action was taken to prevent it. Air could be found in scattered pockets but unbreathable gasses were also present—unprepared travelers lucky enough to arrive in a cavern might slowly asphyxiate while the unlucky quickly suffocated by being buried alive.[35][36] Other pockets of magma, water, ooze, dust, or ash were particularly dangerous for miners if they accidentally breached one of these.[19]

teal rock
#

I believe this plane also has high gravity. Am I right?

feral lintel
#

Yeap, the intense gravity ften caused cave ins

#

Mining operations tended to be small and short-lived because the movement of the substance of the plane and intense gravity caused cave-ins, and the native population defended their territory and/or food supply.

iron saffron
#

The elemental planes are not very hospitable to mortals from the Material Plane.

teal rock
#

If someone had the habit of traversing through this plane what kind of magic items would they need to possess in order to survive here. This is not a PC so don't be afraid to give me something strong.

iron saffron
pale stump
#

like, many people immediately pointed out how flawed it is when he said it, it didn't seem like a well thought out statement

#

iirc even Ed Greenwood said that the statement isn't valid as it violates the terms of the agreement he made with WotC when he sold them the setting (I guess that agreement has something about them not being able to de-canonize such large parts of the setting or something? idk the agreement myself as I'm not Ed Greenwood or WotC lol)

#

so maybe that "editions before 5e aren't canon" statement is valid for other settings but not for FR? idk

pale stump
modest badger
#

'Isn't canon' isn't the same as 'isn't official'.

#

Different editions, media and settings are canon unto themselves.
BG3 is canon to itself, but what happens in BG3 might not be canon to the TTRPG as a whole.
What was canon in 4e may not be canon in 5e.

This doesn't change that this is still official lore, published/approved by WotC or TSR. But that it is not always applicable to other media or editions.
https://dnd.wizards.com/news/dnd-canon

D&D Official | Dungeons & Dragons
D&D Canon | D&D Studio Blog | Dungeons & Dragons

In this D&D Studio Blog, Chris Perkins describes the D&D Studio's position on canonicity.

pale stump
#

I'm not sure what the terms of the agreement Ed has with WotC are so it's hard to comment on it

#

but yeah, I'm not sure they're allowed to declare so much of the setting non canon

#

I know Ed took an issue with this exact blog post

modest badger
#

The only thing I know on Ed's contract is what he's said before:

Sending TSR a few dozen cardboard boxes stuffed with pencil notes and maps, he sold all rights to the Realms for a token fee. “It didn’t make me rich (no, I don’t own part of TSR, control the Realms, or get royalties on all Realms products), but I’ve never regretted it for a moment.
Dragon Magazine 244, p 112, 1998

But likewise I do not know what terms were actually on what had to remain canon and what could or couldn't be changed.

#

Or if 'canon' was used or another word but Ed feels they are interchangeable.

pale stump
#

I also know that WotC has some pretty strict supervising on their FR video games to make sure they match with the canon of the setting, so idk if even they agree with the "every thing can have it's own continuity" thing

sharp owl
#

I think you're confusing different things

pale stump
pale stump
sharp owl
#

What you're describing is IP management, WotC ensuring that third parties represent their IP appropriately

pale stump
#

got it

sharp owl
#

This is not a matter of canon, which is about a continuity of events within fiction

#

Canon is saying "Officially A leads to B which leads to C which leads to D. E through G are not canon events"
That doesn't mean E through G aren't official, they're just not part of canon

pale stump
#

BTW

#

unrelated

sharp owl
#

And sometimes you can have multiple canons, so there might be the Alphabet canon of A>B>C>D and the Numerical canon of 1>2>3>4
This is equivilent to how different forms of D&D media have their own canon

pale stump
#

can someone summarise Phandelver and below for me?

sharp owl
#

No

pale stump
pale stump
modest badger
#

Ben Riggs (A D&D historian and wrote Slaying the Dragon) also seems to think Ed is mistaken about what the agreement actually entailed:

Ed Greenwood sold TSR the rights to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting in 1986 for $5,000 and an Apple computer (later negotiated up to include a hard disc drive).

And that's it. No contractual requirement for anything to be canon, no guarantee of writing novels and no reversion clause if TSR didn't publish an FR product once per year (another oft-quoted clause in the contract which seemingly never happened). Jeff Grubb made Ed an effective editor, writer and lore-checker on FR through TSR's tenure and he retained that into WotC's tenure but they did not have to do that.

pale stump
#

so basically Ed and WotC disagree on this and Ben's saying WotC is likely correct? if I understood correctly?

sharp owl
#

No? WotC hasn't made any statement on what Ed's compensation or agreement was

#

Ed has, and then Ben has done research that suggests a contrary account to what Ed has said

pale stump
#

understood

sharp owl
#

But it's all moot; the Forgotten Realms is the intellectual property of WotC by way of TSR

modest badger
#

WotC has made no statement.
However I cannot legally say what the case actually is, nor do I know what the contract actually says.
I know that Greenwood claims that the contract says anything he writes is canon (including his tweets and 'So Sayeth Ed' posts- which the FR wiki supports up until Ed disagrees with officially published lore) and Riggs disagrees that's the case at all.

pale stump
#

supporting the statements up until they disagree with officially published lore seems like the right call ig

sharp owl
#

Well it's neither right nor wrong, it's just a perspective of viewing the lore

#

Other people just factor what has been officially published by TSR/WotC (hence official lore)

pale stump
#

yeah

modest badger
#

Just while we're on it, dug up the one instance I can find of that cotnract being spoken about (By 'THO/The Hooded One' who is close friends with Greenwood and oftens speaks on behalf of him):
http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17833&whichpage=1#422069

The original Realms agreement between Ed and TSR, which is the means by which the wider world got to see the Realms at all (beyond passing references in The Dragon and elsewhere, such as the late, lamented Gameplay magazine), is, paraphrased, this:
Ed is the creator of the Realms. Everything Ed publicly says or writes is canon, by definition, unless or until superceded by later material published by the copyright holder (so, TSR/WotC, but not a computer game license holder, unless Ed has blessed that non-WotC material as "canon"). So Ed's utterances at a GenCon seminar are canon, Ed's website columns are canon, what he says about the Realms in media interviews is canon, and what he says at Candlekeep is canon. Period.
Participants in the FR wiki can of course hold any opinions about the Realms or its lore they please, but there should be one thing that isn't open to debate, and that's Ed's status as the font of canon.

However being paraphrased here doesn't exactly help. None of these folk (THO, Greenwood, Riggs) are lawyers as far as I know, and I doubt this will get properly resovled until the actual contract and a lawyer look over it, but there doesn't seem to be any incentive to do that.

Personally I treat Greenwood and any creator (Gygax, Keith Baker) of a setting's non-official statements as not 'Lore as Written' but 'Lore as intended', equivalents crawford tweets for rules. Helpful, but not 'official'.

sharp owl
#

However, this does directly contradict what WotC has said with regards to canon in their official article on the subject

jagged apex
grim siren
#

It is an interesting gray area. Greenwood also constantly talks about how there are many topics in the setting that he is just not allowed to talk about due to various non-disclosure agreements. He signed with both TSR and Wizards of the Coast.

Typically these were around characters and or locations that were being planned to have products that around them and the vast majority of them never materialized. But he still will not talk about them unless he gets direct permission from the company that it's okay.

Here's a recent video he made, about a piece of content that was until very recently under a non-disclosure agreement.
https://youtu.be/MQBgqdEArYE?si=A2TueO26yzOMXVkA

While his original contract may not have included in a safeguards for him. The existence of these non-disclosure agreements means that there are other things that we are just not privy to. Such as the nature of business. What is and is not true In cases like this, it's best left to the people who are in the room where it happened. And until such documents are published, which I doubt they will be. The best thing to do is take both sides with a 5 gallon drum of salt.

hexed mortar
#

Someone read Making of Original DnD?

iron saffron
#

It's not out yet (it slated to be released June 18th).

The subject would be better discussed in #dnd-elder-editions

serene crater
#

quick question in regards to obyriths, was it ever noted if any more asides the named ones escaped their original plane or was it just them. trying to look up on the wikia but I'm not sure if it was only a small pack of them

iron saffron
#

Not much is known about them because the tanar'ri demons slaughtered most of them. Pale Night, Dagon, and Pazuzu being some of the few survivors.

tropic drum
#

Green Slaad are wizards or sorcerers?

iron saffron
#

Neither.

#

Creatures can have spellcasting ability without having a character class.

tropic drum
#

Hmmm...

obsidian gate
#

though they are closer to sorcerer in concept

iron saffron
#

They have innate spellcasting with no class spell associated with it.

obsidian gate
#

CHA innate casting is almost a sorcerer everything but name

iron saffron
#

Monsters have had innate (classless) spellcasting ability since 1E.

obsidian gate
#

classes convey certain concepts, in case of the sorcerer someone who's magic comes from within. monsters dont need class levels to be based on the same idea

iron saffron
#

Again moving towards #dnd-discussion territory as we're discussing gameplay mechanics...

obsidian gate
#

this isnt about the mechanics. its about how statblocks dont tell us fully what concept a creature is for lore purposes

tropic drum
#

Yeah, because I wanted to use the Slaad as like an evil wizard but it was unclear if if could learn or research spells. I guess it just likes magic.

#

Cool I guess.

iron saffron
#

Then #homebrew would be your best case. The DMG says you can give character classes to monsters.

strange rose
#

a slaad could become a wizard or sorcerer like any other creature, but its innate spells are just innate magical powers that all slaadi of that type possess.

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Hence innate spellcasting.

jagged apex
#

indeed

#

and keep in mind any intelligent creature with enough intelligence to understand and practice it can become a user of the art, ie what they call practice of arcane spellcasting in the forgotten realms, though i personally doubt it would be common among most slaadi do to their chaotic nature, least the majority of them, cuz historically there were these odd balls https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gormeel

jagged apex
warm hawk
#

What happens when a shar priest converts

iron saffron
#

...converts to or from?

strange rose
#

I see how it could've been taken differently, though. edited

fringe terrace
#

Do giants have any specific gods they worship usually? If stone giants have one specific to them that would be even better

iron saffron
copper inlet
#

I have a question I been looking around about the gods and there stuff the question I have who is the "main god" of each race like I know the elf and dwarf have there one but what about the rest?

unkempt merlin
#

depends on the setting

iron saffron
#

Humans don't have a creator god though..

copper inlet
iron saffron
copper inlet
#

I see thank but speaking of Asmodeus i don't know how true that is but did he really could have ended the blood war?

jagged apex
#

that is the fun thing about asmodeus, he has covered his own origins in so much uncertainty and mystery, it very well could be true or false, nobody knows for sure, and obviously he is not gunna be so foolish as to admit to deliberately not doing everything in his power to defeat the demons

copper inlet
#

Like there are way more demon the devil

jagged apex
#

given he is said to deliberately mislead his generals to keep things in a constant stalemate and encourages devilish society to try to overthrow him and is well known for his intelligence, would be hard to believe that he makes these moves and is actually trying to push for a final victory only to fail

#

yeah but basically what devils lack in number they make up for in skill and disipline, being lawful evil beings and all

#

most demons typically have the battle plan of just running in to murder things in their own way, very disorganized and chaotic, especially by comparison

#

trust me, if it all just came down solely to pure numbers, i doubt it would be as big of a deal as it actually is, let alone still be going on in the lore

copper inlet
#

Yea that the demon alright bet in older version there some demon what way older like the first demon before demogorgon

jagged apex
#

?

#

some of that does not make much sense, least to where i can tell clearly what you mean

copper inlet
jagged apex
#

you mean the Obyriths?

copper inlet
#

Yes that what they called

#

Aren't they like way more powerful then the demon

jagged apex
#

not nessissarily

#

older does not always = more powerful, that is more so a dragon thing than any given magical or powerful being

#

some of the surviving obyrith are very weak compared to the likes of demogorgon

#

cuz yeah, the tanari, of which demogorgon is one of and notably the first, those demons hunted down and murdered the vast majority of them, any survivors only did so by going into hiding, some of them simply opperating as more so demon lords than obyriths, keeping it a secret

#

cuz obviously if the tanari found out, they'd try to kill them

copper inlet
#

I see ok thank but another question like you say it more of dragon think then demon and I agree on that one but how does a demon become strong in the Abyss the don't need soul as this more of a devil thing

jagged apex
#

both need souls and can use them to become more powerful

#

demons basically get stronger most often by surviving, murdering and amassing power in the abyss, those that can do so an maintain control over a layer of the abyss for 30 days straight, being transformed into demon lords by the abyss itself, that 30 days strait thing to my knowledge going for any being in the abyss, mortal, demon, devil, god, ect..., the abyss is not picky

#

and while i could be wrong, usually, to my knowledge at least, becoming a demon lord comes with a power boost that usually puts you above the average demon, especially since it gives you a unique form and powers specific to you

#

like some are stronger than others, but more often than not the amount of power a demon lord has, by way of maintaining control of what is now their layer usually makes it so not just any run of the mill demon can just come and merk them

fleet glacier
#

hey guys

#

im reading this "a guide to the astral plane"

#

and i saw this

#

w8 this channel doesnt allow pictures

#

gimme a sec

#

"Here's an important point, however. Just because it's a realm of the mind and physical things are really made of mental energies doesn't mean that whatever a berk thinks comes true. Not at all. Instead, physical things keep their perceived qualities, even in the astral form. Hard things feel hard, bitter things taste bitter, and so on. Perception is the key, but it is not the master. Just thinking about perceiving a sword does not make a sword appear. This isn't the plane of wishes. A berk's tiny mind just doesn't have that kind of power over the infinite Astral."

jagged apex
#

it does, just you need certain permissions, usually something moderators have i think

fleet glacier
#

thats what i can understand from it

copper inlet
jagged apex
jagged apex
#

like if a demon murders something on the prime material plane it can potentially scar and warp the environment for hundreds of years, at least from what i can recall, but either way definitely demons, cuz devils usually don't get involved much with the prime material plane at least to where they are threat to it

copper inlet
jagged apex
#

honestly questions like these are often answered in lore videos put out by AJ Pickett, who is a rather credible source in video form, so i would suggest giving those a watch perhaps as he likely makes mention of details i left out, mainly since i was going off memory and he tends to cite his sources if you wanna go digging for the exact text in the books, he also explains it rather well and does his best to when possible, stitch the lore across editions into a somewhat cohesive narrative, which sometimes makes understanding big chuncks of lore easier

#

but will also usually let you know when it is not the case in lore or is just is own speculation or what have you

#

i know he has done quite a few on the topics of and surrounding obyriths, demons, and devils

fleet glacier
#

dont see any edition in here

jagged apex
#

searched on good, apparently that is part of the 2e planescape books

fleet glacier
#

yes

fleet glacier
#

it donest say that it is straight up impossible

#

it says that a tiny mind doesnt have that power over the astral

#

but it never say that that kind of power is physiclly impossible

jagged apex
fleet glacier
#

ill give that a deep read and come back to you

#

i was breewing the idea that maybe elder brains could make things on the astral plane?

#

brb tho

jagged apex
#

if you feel you need more context, i'd suggest checking and hunting down the sources cited to read the full text, as the wiki can not always quote things word for word, do to legal reasons far as i am aware

fleet glacier
#

ill do

jagged apex
#

especially if brainstorming

fleet glacier
#

yeah no, im just looking for the lore of it, not planning on doing anything with it any time soon

#

i just like lore-prospecting

fleet glacier
#

wasnt my intention

fleet glacier
#

ok i found something interesting about this

#

"The proto-matter swirling about the Ethereal plane could be used to create demi-planes, either through natural fluctuations in the medium or by the actions of powerful beings. Some known demi-planes included the Demi-Plane of Shadow, the Demi-Plane of Time, the Demi-Plane of Electro-Magnetism, and the possibly legendary Demi-Plane of Imprisonment."

#

proto matter, and demiplanes

#

"The Deep Ethereal swirled with large blobs of protomatter which could form a demiplane when a critical size was reached. Powerful wizards, technologists, or demigods could also bend the proto-matter to their will and create a demiplane. These nascent planes might exhibit some of the characteristics of the Inner planes or the Prime, but with their own rules of gravity, material make-up, etc., and even support life. Most demiplanes eventually collapse into themselves and break up or merge with another Inner or Prime Material plane."

fringe terrace
slate stream
#

What does Tiamat's lair look like?

grim siren
#

The realm was a large cave system within a tall mountain, hidden in the hills of Avernus. It held the only known portal that led to the second layer, Dis.

The caves were littered with Tiamat's own treasure hoard, which lay scattered on the floor throughout the complex. Tiamat's Lair was patrolled from the sky by numerous flights of dragons. The portal to Dis was guarded by Tiamat herself. She only let those who offered a worthy sacrifice through

The lair was also inhabited by Tiamat's mates and their descendants. The realm was generally avoided by demons, who were aware of Tiamat's lack of interest in the Blood War. It was, however, occasionally visited by devils offering gifts, hoping to seal bargains with Tiamat.

Books to find more info

On Hallowed Ground By Colin McComb

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes By Mike Merals and Jeremy Crawford

The Rise of Tiamat By Steven Winter, Alexander Winter, and Wolfgang Baur

dusty void
#

I had a question about half elves

sharp owl
#

Which is?

feral lintel
dusty void
#

Do they only speak common or what are the other languages they speak? I think what I’m trying to ask is if there is a specific elven language

iron saffron
feral lintel
#

(It will say so in their features)
Depends on tue half elf individual

dusty void
feral lintel
#

Its in the PHB

iron saffron
dusty void
sharp owl
#

The only exception to this afaik is Eberron, where all elves including half elves, have mystical access to elven language without learning it

storm dagger
#

On Demons or Devil's being bigger threats it really depends.

#

If Demons get to the Material Plane they tend to rampage and cause problems. Devils are less likley to do that, but if they are involved it's normally a big plan that will cause tons of issues.

jagged apex
#

except not, demons literally wanna slaughter the multiverse, basically burn it down to the ground, so easily bigger threat to the prime material plane, devils at worst wanna rule everything

iron saffron
#

Devils are at least predictable.
Demons are chaos incarnate.

magic jackal
#

The question of which is a bigger threat also includes who is more likely to be successful I think.

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

Sucking your entire city down into Hell and transforming your souls into devils is I think worse than simply being killed by a Demon.

jagged apex
#

that is 1 specific example that is rather rare in it of itself

#

like only 2 or 3 times, EVER has any devil tried to do with that a city or a world on the prime material plane

iron saffron
#

That's not really an 1:1 comparison...

magic jackal
#

It is arguable that Devils, by nature of being excellent planners are more likely to succeed than Demons, and their schemes are more likely to be large-scale impactful and more difficult to foil.

jagged apex
#

is not something normally done or even considered

storm dagger
#

Devil's also get involved in trying to exert control over nations and towns in order to make them puppet states that reinforce them.

feral lintel
jagged apex
#

not really, at least that is on the lower end of their priorities

storm dagger
#

No Soul Factories as they call them are a constant interest.

jagged apex
#

devils first and foremost are dedicated to the bloodwar and infernal society, and most of the tempting of souls is done after those souls pass on and are awaiting judgement

#

soul factors? there is no such thing to my knowledge in dnd lore

storm dagger
#

It's from 3e from memory.

#

It's pretty much taking control of a nation

iron saffron
#

Never heard of it and I have the 3.5E Fiendish Codexes behind me.

storm dagger
#

and making the nation more likley to produce lawful evil souls, by having the mortal rulers make polcy and life changes for the residents.

storm dagger
iron saffron
#

Citation?

#

I'm eating lunch and I don't want to look through the book.

jagged apex
jagged apex
feral lintel
iron saffron
#

I'm eating and playing Overwatch 2. And it's not my job to do research to disprove someone who cites something without citing the source material.

jagged apex
#

yeah if it is indeed a thing in dnd, you should be able to cite the source to prove it exists

storm dagger
#

I am checking. I messed up the soul Factory name. They are just Territories

#

KRETOR: A SAMPLE TERRITORY
The city-state of Kretor serves as a textbook example of a soulharvesting territory. Home to an austere society of lawful evil
militarists, its dead citizens have gone reliably to Hell for more
than six generations. The fact that nine in ten of its people are
lawful evil at the time of death has earned it a place among its
world’s most lucrative soul-harvesting areas.
The territory is controlled by a paeliryon named Nimruku,
which received the assignment from its lord, Mephistopheles.
Nimruku is credited whenever a citizen of Kretor goes to hell.
Nimruku has divided the city into six sectors, each of which
is controlled by a horned devil loyal to it—and through it,
to Mephistopheles. Each of these horned devils gets partial
credit for every soul from its sector that arrives on the Shelves
of Despond.
In turn, each horned devil has assigned several lieutenants
to oversee the various neighborhoods in its section of Kretor.
Each of these underlings receives a share of the credit for the
appropriate souls when they arrive in Baator. The lieutenants
work mostly through human devil worshipers and sell-souls to
ensure that the laws of cruelty remain strong against the forces
of good, chaos, and neutrality. Their primary duty is to look
out for other devils attempting to horn in on their turf and take
credit for their damnations.

#

Page 15 of Fiendish Codex 2. With also mentions how Devil's try to influnce socities to make soul harvesting reliable.

jagged apex
#

that still is more harm to the mortal's life on the prime, than threat to the prime material plane itself

hazy apex
#

what is the average age of a fiend, or does it depend on the type

feral lintel
#

By age, im guessing you mean lifespan, right?

hazy apex
#

no

#

i mean if you asked a fiend how old they are, what would the average answer be

rigid gate
#

i don't think there's a way to answer that realistically. it'd depend a lot on the specific type of fiend; weaker types of fiends are unlikely to survive a long time, so their average age would be lower, and so on so forth

sharp owl
#

They're virtually immortal beings from timeless planes

#

I don't think the question would make sense to a fiend

hazy apex
#

the only possible argument i could see then, is that they're as old as the planes themselves.

#

devils are as old as the hells and so on

feral lintel
#

Theyd have to be "young" to remember their age

hazy apex
#

so after a certain point is there a term you could use, like eons?

polar goblet
#

i'd think it's more likely they might remember a particularly notable event from their mortal lifetime, but over the centuries they'd lose track of how long it's been since then. a character with enough History knowledge might be able to pin it down

#

and speaking of History, i have a question myself 😅 i have an Edutainer Bard with expertises in all the knowledge skills among others, who will be trying out Heroes' Feast for the first time, and i think she'd like to replicate famous feasts from history 😄 i know very little FR lore myself though 😅 of course there'd be plenty of chronicles of such on Toril, but have any of them been written down in our reality (doesn't have to be George RR Martin levels of detail 😆 )? or does anyone at least know of a major event that would include such a feast?

iron saffron
#

Demons aren't born like mortals are. They are often created by the Abyss itself. They lose their memories of their past mortal lives, like most petitioners in the Outer Planes.

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

to my knowledge, when a demon takes form, they are effectively "full grown" there is no infant stage, closest thing would be the soul larave used to create new ones independant of the ones constantly being created by the abyss itself

jagged apex
# hazy apex so after a certain point is there a term you could use, like eons?

it largely is not relevant, at most you get the idea of how old an entity such as a fiend is by their relation to events they were either a part of or around to remember, like a fiend that was around during the early days or even the start of the blood war, would be untold millenia old, but be about as fit and healthy as any of their peirs, as the beings of the outerplanes are metaphysical in nature much like the planes themselves

#

and i mainly give that as just an example

#

heck, some beings, such as asmodeus, have been around since before time was even recorded

iron saffron
#

The only fiend that has an immature state are the nabassus, where the juvenile nabasu spend time on the Material Plane before become more powerful and returning to the Abyss.

jagged apex
wet hull
iron saffron
#

This going out of the scope of this channel...

polar goblet
# wet hull Do a final supper

i am so clueless on FR lore that i have no idea if you're referencing an actual event or just joking 😓 (not seeing anything for that search term on the wiki)

iron saffron
#

FR lore is detailed but not that detailed. There are still big enough gaps for DMs to fill.

polar goblet
iron saffron
#

Work with your DM.

polar goblet
#

this is for AL, there's not just one DM to worry about. but anyway this cloud is appropriately chastened and will run away now goodbye

jagged apex
brittle sage
#

Guys why is torm and helm have such similar symbols

#

How do you tell them apart ?

jagged apex
#

very easily, one has an eye on it, the other does not

#

the eye is very prominent, kind of hard to miss

#

plus Helm's is far more descriptive "An upright left gauntlet with a staring eye on it" vs Torm's as a "White right gauntlet"

#

so one is much more specific and they are opposite hands

hazy apex
#

what are sune's followers like

iron saffron
hazy apex
#

i'm interested in learning more than just what her religious traditions are, more about what the people would be like to talk to.

iron saffron
#

Look at the citations for the source books/novels cited. That'll be best you'll get short of asking Ed Greenwood directly (he has his own Discord server).

jagged apex
#

also has his own youtube and X/twitter profile where he shares realms lore either via posts or videos depending on the platform

slate stream
#

Are demons and devils immune to the effects of the river styx?

obsidian gate
#

Fiends don’t fear being momentarily exposed to the Styx, but — with the notable exception of hydroloths, merrenoloths, and amnizus — even they can’t retain their memories if they drink from the River Styx or swim for too long in its waters.
from Tome of foes

jagged apex
snow laurel
#

Are there any magic items or useful concoctions that you can make out of a slaad gem?

jagged apex
snow laurel
#

reading that is what inspired me to ask the question

jagged apex
#

basically can be used to control the slaad it belongs to, just gotta crack their head open and grab it before it can kill you, they can more or less regenerate or survive such a process

snow laurel
#

I understand that you can use it to cast spells but the player I'm asking this for specifically loves making items and potions out of monster parts

feral lintel
jagged apex
#

not sure about being able to use it to cast spells, to my knowledge the main use for a slaad's gem is to control it

snow laurel
jagged apex
#

anything else to my knowledge would be homebrew but would be hard to make sense for given what the gem is, assuming you are keeping the lore of the gem in tact and just making up new uses for it

#

but in published material to my knowledge it had no use beyond controlling the slaad associated with the gem

#

which makes sense cuz it is not like the gem is some typical material component or biological part, it is litterally a small fragment of the spawning stone, at least according to the published lore

wet spindle
#

Question: according to the DM’s guide, Eberron uses a different cosmological model (and thus seemingly a different canon entirely!) than Sigil and the Outlands. However, I’m writing a campaign where I want travel between Sharn and Sigil. Is there an in-lore way for this to be possible, or do I have to BS it in my game to make it work?

#

I want to keep things in the D&D canon as much as possible

jagged apex
#

cosmology does not equal canon/continuity

#

eberron is a self contained setting, isolated and hidden within the deep ethereal plane

#

while sigil does not exist in the published continuity for eberron, nothing is stopping you from adding it to your campaign

strange rose
jagged apex
#

beings from eberron being able to travel to other settings or leave the self contained cosmology of eberron at all, is largely something specific to WoTC's version of the setting's continuity

#

so even if going by that, there is literally nothing stopping a door/portal from eberron appearing in sigil, though if i had to guess, likely is inactive the vast majority of the time, but that is assuming one already exists

jagged apex
wet spindle
#

I could write lore that has the portal be rediscovered after years of dormancy

jagged apex
#

not to mention there are different continuities between the settings by their creators and the versions wizards of the coast publish

wet spindle
jagged apex
jagged apex
wet spindle
#

if you want to move there I’d be more than welcome discussing it

jagged apex
#

cuz again, even in any one edition, there can be multiple continuities to any given setting

strange rose
storm dagger
jagged apex
#

yeah which is kind of my point to a degree

unkempt merlin
#

in terms of official canon, you can reach Eberron from other settings and places

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
storm dagger
#

Rechecking

strange rose
#

the FR wiki page has a nice list of specific ways one can reach Eberron from elsewhere. None of them are from 5e though.

storm dagger
#

It is in the Ethereall

jagged apex
#

is a bit of lore i liked, cuz i actually theoized it to be the case as part of my theory of where in the multiverse the settiing was located in dnd's multiverse, before they actually, though in a less detailed manner, confirmed it in published materials for 5e, so it is a bit of lore that tends to make me grin :3

storm dagger
#

Anyway while you can’t like Spelljam over to Eberron, Sigil’s portals always bypass all of that

unkempt merlin
#

eberron has been in the deep ethereal since its introduction

storm dagger
#

Sigil has portals that lead everywhere, if you have the right key in the right place you can get there.

storm dagger
jagged apex
#

but there is also nothing in the lore that explicitly connects the two, at least in published materials, they kind of dance around that

storm dagger
#

||The most recent book has you take a portal from Sigil to Eberron||

feral lintel
#

Speaking of travel with Eberron, woukd the... Thingymajiger that happened in Cyre be a possible explanation for going out or in of Eberron, or is this more up to DM due to the nature if the event

jagged apex
#

not all of us have access to, let alone read or are aware of it's contents

storm dagger
#

That’s part of the marketing and on the back of the book

jagged apex
#

adventures and sourcebooks are notably different things

storm dagger
#

It will never have an official explanation

feral lintel
#

Gotcha.

#

So thats what its called the Mourning!

jagged apex
# feral lintel Speaking of travel with Eberron, woukd the... Thingymajiger that happened in Cyr...

1 no idea what you mean, but two, likely would not be something officially mentioned in the published continuity, as far as i know and can recall, the few characters that have traveled from the setting to others is not exactly detailed, honestly if you wanna connect have people from the setting and vice versa, outside of published adventures and storylines from novels and the like, you unlikely are gunna get something concrete and thus would be up to the dm and how they run their version of eberron

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

well far as i know they seemed to, cuz i was not away of any offical connected ways between the two, apart from what kinen spoiled

unkempt merlin
wet spindle
#

also to anybody who hasn’t gotten their hands on Eve of Ruin, don’t read the comment I replied to

feral lintel
jagged apex
#

it is literally described as a "magical holocaust of unknown origins"

feral lintel
#

Ah

#

(Well there goes my idea of a Kalashtar ending up in FR)

jagged apex
#

the kalashtar one one half human and one half quori from what i recall, is kind of a spiritual fusion, if memory serves, to begin with

#

i also recall most are the restulf of that fusion being 1 generation removed, thus stretching the quori half across those living relatives to the point their connection to the other half is weak at best

unkempt merlin
#

not quite

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

they aren't "half and half". they are descended from one of a (relatively small) number of "good" quori that hid inside humans in the past (with consent of the humans) and over time split themselves across all of their descendents. so each kalashtar has a tiny fragment of a connection to their quori spirit, shared with all other kalashtar of their type

jagged apex
#

yeah, is why i said "kind of" is not a literal fusion, but from what i recall, one way or another the souls of the quori and the mortals became intertwined, as they initially did not know and thus worried what would happen if their host were to die

unkempt merlin
#

that doesn't sound correct

jagged apex
#

granted i could be wrong or otherwise misinformed in some aspects of the details

feral lintel
#

Speaking of which, ive always been confused what the quori were

jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

(fiends, if you want to be pedantic about creature type. but thats not super relevant)

#

at least some of them anyway

jagged apex
#

from what i recall their home plane would basically change alignment or nature, so far as from good to evil under certain critera, the ones that fled basically defied the status quo of the at the time current reality of their realm and did not wish to be evil and were kind of hoping to wait till it eventually returned to good

#

again, i am largely going off memory here but to be safe i did link the eberron wiki page on them so you could check that for yourself if you want

unkempt merlin
#

would probably make more sense to quote from the page you are linking if you don't actually know

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

so if i am wrong, i am at least providing the wiki pages so could see if i am correct or not according to those or could just check for yourself rather than listen to me trying to summarize it

#

though despite the short answer being them as dream demons, they are not fiends, they are aberrations in terms of creature type in 5e, they are basically natives of eberron's plane of dreams Dal Quor/the Region of Dreams

vapid current
#

What's a good resource to read if I'm making a dragonborn (forgotten realms) and I want some better inspiration on their culture? really not inspired by the flavor text presented alongside their player-option rules

feral lintel
#

Fizban's

#

Or the wiki

iron saffron
#

Dragonborn are relatively new to Toril. Their home planet is Abeir.

storm dagger
#

In Greyhawk via 3e Lore they were originally other humanoids turned into Dragon People by Ritual of Bahamut. Though that could change.

iron saffron
#

Dragonborn weren't a playable race until 4E

jagged apex
#

and to my knowledge at least, though we don't know how, it is implied there is some unknown connection between the dragonborn of bahamut and the dragonborn that is a true race

warm stirrup
#

Who is Ty-h Kadi, one of the players at my game is a tempest cleric of this guy, I can’t find much info on him, can you direct me to the best way to learn about him since this god/ archomental seems pretty cool and I might want to create a character around this dude (cleric or paladin)

serene crater
#

quick question, but has it ever been noted in lore of if it's been frowed upon for mortals to do business with both devils and demons? I know the yugoloths have but from what I recall that usually related to them betraying one faction betraying the other

storm dagger
serene crater
#

I mean in the case between the two

reef cape
storm dagger
#

Still if they take the proper steps they should not have any issues working with both if they can get a dominant position

serene crater
reef cape
#

It depends on too many factors, there are plenty of ways dealing with two groups who are enemies can go

#

Sometimes you get killed, sometimes you get rich

storm dagger
#

Like if it’s an evil summoner, if they summon a devil and get their service, normally nothing would stop them from doing the same to a demon

#

Like the demon and devil might disapprove of this, but in many cases won’t have the power to act on it.

reef cape
#

In that case it's not so much that they are dealing with both than the fact that they are enslaving them

#

People, whether they be fiends or not, tend to resent that

iron saffron
slow river
#

Sorry if this is a dumb question. Do the colleges of bard subclasses actually mean anything in game? Or is it purely a game thing like hp?

obsidian gate
#

bard colleges are loose organizations of likeminded bards in which they share stories and techniques

soft palm
#

is there a book or something that encompasses all of the faerun lore? I know forgotten realms wiki exists and it is super helpful, but would be nice to have a book if one exists

grim siren
#

All? No

#

Here are the 4 most comprehensive.

Forgotten Realms 3rd edition campaign setting (only goes up to 1372 DR)

Forgotten Realms 4th edition campaign guide (only goes up to 1479 DR)

Grand History of the Realms (only goes up to 1385 DR)

Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster s forgotten realms (timeline agnostic)

obsidian gate
#

it funny that the only explicit FR book in 5e didnt make this list lol

grim siren
#

Because it's sooooo weak. It'd be like if North America was a setting

SCAG would be A Guide to the state of Washington.

soft palm
#

that's actually partially why I've ended up here asking the question kekw Sword Coast is so detailed for what is a miniscule section of the map. It's exhausting that the main adventures are so comprehensive for that one area of the map, but anywhere else I have to do extensive research online coolcry

grim siren
#

Of the four books. The 2 most useful for a DM is the 3rd d FRCS which is closer to how the world is after 5Es Second Sundering. Than 4Es spell plauge. But it's 125 years out of date

Elminsters Forgotten Realms is an excellent DM resource that is edition agnostic that goes into detail how the people of the realms live. From their vernacular to foods to worship

soft palm
#

thanks!

grim siren
#

Also check out Jorphdan on YouTube his bite sized FR Explained series is a godsend.

soft palm
shrewd bobcat
#

Is there any official depiction of Aarakocra as having Wing-Arms or having Back-Wing (separate from their arms)

iron saffron
#

Art from 5th edition portrays aarakocra as having separate arms. This conflicts with all descriptions and art in earlier editions.

shrewd bobcat
#

Kind of disturbing, the changes and retcons WOTC does for the sake of homology

#

Following the fall of their empires to the first Flight of Dragons around −30,000 DR, the surviving members of the avian creator race known as the aearee (primarily the subgroup known as the Aearee-Krocaa) fled to Anchorome, where their further exploits went largely undocumented by Faerûnian historians. The only thing known was that at some point after their arrival there, the aearee either created or devolved into the aarakocra, who then move south into Maztica.

I wonder if they could canonize this as the reason for the discrepancy

iron saffron
#

There's only about 100 years difference between 3E and 5E.

#

The easiest answer is "art direction."

shrewd bobcat
#

Well, it doesn't have to be so linear

iron saffron
#

FR lore is linear.

shrewd bobcat
#

Just because one was the only one known for a period of time doesn't mean that only 1 existed

iron saffron
#

There doesn't need to be a lore reason when WotC art director screws up.

jagged apex
#

is not that disturbing, plus again, do we need to reiterate the point of canon, this extends to art that goes with the lore

shrewd bobcat
iron saffron
#

The art to the looks of monsters often change from edition, although this time is more drastic.

iron saffron
shrewd bobcat
#

Agreed. And I'm suggesting they do instead

unkempt merlin
#

its not necessarily a screw up

shrewd bobcat
#

Perhaps. But a poor decision nonetheless.

jagged apex
#

to me their wings being the same as their arms or not is a very minor thing in terms of importance, it is easier to imagine how a flying race of humanoids would fight if they don't have to give up arms to have wings, is just a difference between editions and the 5e continuity versions always had them in addition to arms and legs rather than having to have the wings take the place of their arms

unkempt merlin
#

its very possible (and frankly, likely) that its intentional and just a retcon they don't care to try and qualify in lore. much to the chagrin of the fr wiki writers (similar to firbolg and many other things).

retcons happen. they aren't a big deal

shrewd bobcat
#

I just hate patchwork lore and ad hoc retcons

unkempt merlin
#

thats always been how dnd works

jagged apex
#

well each edition is it's own continuity

shrewd bobcat
#

If they cared, they could make changes make sense.

jagged apex
#

it is not all consistent or unified

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

you are assuming they don't make sense to begin with

#

again, i personally feel the 5e incarnation's design makes a lot more sense for a race of humanoids that are winged and known for flying

shrewd bobcat
jagged apex
#

you are intitled to have a preference, but that is an opinion, not an objective fact

#

what part of it does not make sense?

shrewd bobcat
#

I HAVE been stating my opinion. Where has not not been clear?

unkempt merlin
#

saying "it doesn't make sense at all" doesn't sound like you stating your opinion

jagged apex
#

when you state your opinion in a way that comes off as if you were stating an objective fact, that does not seem like stating your opinion, more so trying to pass it off as fact

#

and again, what is it that you are saying does not make sense? if it is the change in how they look from one edition to another, that is self imposed as again each edition is it's own continuity, that is why there are sometimes both minor and drastic differences between the depictions of the same creature between editions

shrewd bobcat
jagged apex
#

you are assuming that it all is ment to be a linear and connected continuity, factually that is just not what dnd's lore is

#

for all we know the arakocra of the 5e continuity have always looked the way they do

unkempt merlin
#

is body morphology so significant though?

I can think of a pretty good one that was changed. Definitely more famous than aarakocra too. Being Drow ofc

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

cuz that has been something established by the dnd team themselves, when they made their statement on continuity/canon

iron saffron
#

Lore changes from edition to edition. Just accept it.

shrewd bobcat
sly prairie
#

it's literally just artwork though

unkempt merlin
#

but has the change in their appearance actually changed any of their lore?

iron saffron
jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

Dragons, drow, etc. Many other things have had just as significant (if not moreso) appearance changes across editions

shrewd bobcat
jagged apex
#

heck, gold dragons recently just went to looking more like their 2e incarnations as we have seen via some of the reveals

sly prairie
#

tieflings? in multiple colours? Quality_Gandalf_Laugh

iron saffron
#

Tieflings in 2E look nothing like their 4E/5E iteration. 2E tieflings had random fiendish body features.

sly prairie
#

frankly most people don't even know what anything looked like before 5e

unkempt merlin
shrewd bobcat
unkempt merlin
#

why did you bring up a completely different point about drow than what I was referring to when you responded to me

#

also what culturual changes

jagged apex
#

the fact is, 5e incarnation of the Aarakocra are not the same as the depictions in the previous editions, and is not like it is ignored it is very clearly noted, the 5e anatomy for the Aarokocra has been consistent in this new depiction, the depictions between the different editions are not one in the same, making the change not unexplained, it has obviously been implied that has simply been how they have always looked in the 5e continuity until they explicitly say otherwise in published materials

shrewd bobcat
#

It's like suddenly retconning Orcs having a 3rd arm and "it's always been that way"

unkempt merlin
#

and that doesn't change the fact that dragons (among numerous other things) have also had massive physiology changes across editions

shrewd bobcat
unkempt merlin
#

they've had incredibly varied physiologies across different editions. often with very little in common

jagged apex
iron saffron
#

I suspect WotC made the changes to the aarokocra's wings / wing-arms is more of a gameplay mechanic reason — previously they couldn't attack with weapons while flying.

jagged apex
#

no where are they saying that they always had arms and wings in every edition, they are only saying that is how they look in 5e

unkempt merlin
# shrewd bobcat dude, YOU brought up the Drow.

Yes. And I was talking about in regards from drow being changed from being very literal irl caricatures of black people in their original conception to being the purple/dark tones they are currently. Because you (and I) were talking about morphology changes.

So I have no idea what aspect of drow culture you could be referring to

shrewd bobcat
jagged apex
#

no, they have not

unkempt merlin
#

dragons very much have not

jagged apex
#

again, i point you to the gold dragons

#

they are the biggest example

strange rose
#

orcs and kobolds have changed a lot since the early days. Not sure if there were ever any in-world justifications for that.

jagged apex
#

especially with their most recently revealed design basically merging the 2 main types of designs from across their various appearances in the different editiions, and just saying, it looks glorious

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

yeah kobolds originally had nothing to do with dragons, but have been closely tied to dragons since wizards of the coast took over in 3e and had changed their lore to be that way in those editions onwards

shrewd bobcat
unkempt merlin
#

no

#

The "dog" kobold originates from dnd

shrewd bobcat
#

Gygax didn't do his homework on what "Kobold" means.

jagged apex
#

so?

unkempt merlin
#

its a result of cultural shifts and depictions of the original dnd kobold in eastern and western media

iron saffron
#

1E orcs (they have very pig-like heads) look nothing like 5E orcs.

1E kobolds look more dog-like but with scales. They became more repitlian in 3E

jagged apex
#

there are times that dnd has just taken the name of a creature in folklore and everything else is their own stuff, like the Gnolls

#

the name is from a gnome and troll hybrid in folklore, but in dnd they have always been demonic hyena men

shrewd bobcat
iron saffron
#

D&D is VERY loosely based on real world folklore and myths. In European folklore goblins, hobgoblins, and such were interchangeable but Gygax made them distinct monsters.

jagged apex
#

no, it does not

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

none of it NEEDS retconing, if you don't like it and want to change it, that is a YOU thing

sly prairie
#

I think humans should get removed tbh

iron saffron
#

This isn't the channel for such opinions. This channel is to discuss official D&D lore.

jagged apex
#

dnd has no obligation to be have 1 to 1 with their inspirations or anything that shares the same name of a creature they use in their game, that is just out right not how dnd lore works, be it meta or non meta wise

#

also, no way humans are being written out of dnd, that would be like the most obvious thing ever it would not land well

modest badger
#

Jumping in here to remind folk to remain civil and remember there are nuances to these topics and not just absolutes, and in applying absolutes we end up talking past each other.

Previous lore at times has been harmful and did need retconning, which is something that has been acknowledged in TSR and WotC. There are also lore changes that are just to change to keep up with marketing, mechanics or just the opinions of the writers at the time.

While correct that this isn't the best channel to bring up simple opinions on lore (From things like 'gnomes don't feel unique enough' to 'I don't like how many different playable elves there are') and other channels would be better for that, and #dm-world-building for the 'what ifs', and proposed changes at times, there is a place in this channel for discussing older edition lore , the changes between them, and if there are any official statements on why that lore was changed at times.

#

And that yes, we can discuss the origins of concepts for D&D creatures too, be they based on plastic toys, an episode from an old tv series, or actual mythology. But that, as pointed out, D&D isn't obligated to stay 'true' to those origins.

#

And there can be some whacky conceptual origin stories for some D&D monsters.
Anyone know which fairly well known monster as it exists now in D&D seems to be based on a misreading/misspelling of it's first iteration in D&D?

daring breach
#

I know the plastic toy one, but not that one.

fathom wagon
#

Stumped

iron saffron
#

Huecuva (it was "heucuva" in 1E FF)

fathom wagon
#

That's fairly well known?

#

TIL

calm crest
#

There’s the thoul, which was the product of a misprinted random encounter table.

fathom wagon
#

Are there any known affiliations/smuggler groups in Faerun? Or would a smuggler primarily be an independent mercenary contractor?

tropic drum
#

I suppose smuggling would be the purview of thieves' guilds, pirates or the Zhentarim.

#

Besides the Zhents, these are mostly local organizations.

fathom wagon
#

Excellent. I have a little freedom then. Zhents definitely not the ethical real estate for this character. Thanks!

idle yarrow
#

Hey guys, I have a question. When Dwarves lose access to their names in circumstances that have brought shame to their clans, what do they usually do next? Do they usually come up with some non-dwarve-related origin name or do they simply choose to remain nameless?

hoary pewter
#

I was thinking about running the dragonlance module for 5e, but I'd like to first get a grip on the lore. Any recomandations on what to read? I heard it's got a ton of stuff in terms of history.

crude blaze
modest badger
topaz prawn
#

Is toril the combination of all planes?

#

And abeir is another cluster of planes?

sharp owl
#

No

#

Toril and Abeir were both worlds within the Forgotten Realms setting that both existed on the Material Plane

#

At some point they were merged into a single world

#

In fact, the timeline was more Abeir-Toril >split> Abeir and Toril >merged> Toril with parts of Abeir that didn't merge just mysteriously gone

#

It doesn't have anything to do with the wider multiverse

topaz prawn
sharp owl
#

The biggest what?

topaz prawn
#

Plane

#

Or every plane is endless

#

Like x y z axes expand to infinity

#

And the planes are the α axis

sharp owl
#

The planes vary, but generally don't have a fixed size

#

Planes are best thought of like floors in a building, rather than specifically defined locations

topaz prawn
#

Btw

sharp owl
#

It's like asking if the 1st floor is bigger than the 2nd floor; it depends on the building

topaz prawn
#

So its like 4th dimensionp

sharp owl
#

The material plane is the "level" of existence that all material planes exist on

topaz prawn
#

Right?

sharp owl
topaz prawn
sharp owl
#

I don't understand the question

topaz prawn
#

Isnt going between plane is like

#

Moving in the 4th dimension

sharp owl
#

No, it's not

topaz prawn
sharp owl
#

It not being the same

#

The difference is there are no similarities

#

The cosmology of D&D is not at all like higher dimensional mathematics

topaz prawn
#

So if u go like far enough to the north u will eventually reach the upperplane?

sharp owl
#

No

#

There's no spacial relationship between the planes in that manner

wet roost
#

There are theories about how the cosmosologies work and those change over time. It isn't fixed like math.

sharp owl
#

The upper planes are not literally above the lower planes, that's just a way to describe them

topaz prawn
#

But we know that shadowfell is closer to material plane than let say Hades right?

sharp owl
#

It's "closer" in the sense that it is easier to access

#

It's not physically closer

#

Like, say from your house you can get a train that takes you 20 minutes to reach your friend Amanda 10 miles away, but in order to reach your friend Ben 5 miles away, you need to walk for an hour because there's no public transport
Amanda is 'closer' because it's easier to reach her than Ben

#

Now instead of it being a case of one friend being 10 miles away and the other 5, its the infinite distance between planes

#

The Shadowfell is easier to reach than the Outer Planes due to it's relationship with the material planes (as a mirror of the prime material plane) It takes less effort to reach. So it's described as closer

topaz prawn
sharp owl
#

I did just mention that planes don't have rigidly defined sizes

topaz prawn
#

Or its only the size of toril

sharp owl
#

Multiple worlds have a reflection in the Shadowfell

#

Not all, but many do

#

Also the Shadowfell isn't a 1:1 reflection of the world it mirrors, distance doesn't work that way

topaz prawn
#

Is material plane also a reflection of shadowfell

sharp owl
#

No

topaz prawn
#

Or its the one way thing

sharp owl
#

The feywild and the shadowfell are reflections of the prime material plane

#

All three of them count as the material plane

topaz prawn
#

So its like a mirage effect

sharp owl
#

Not really?

#

I'm not entirely sure how you're using that word

topaz prawn
#

Mirage effect

sharp owl
#

Repeating it doesn't explain how you're using it

#

My familiarity of the term is meaning an illusion that isn't really there

topaz prawn
#

Visual is there

#

Just change photon to magic and it make sense right?

sharp owl
#

No, it doesn't

#

And also no, that's not how they work

#

The Shadowfell and Feywild are physical places you can travel to

topaz prawn
#

How is shadowfell and feywild created

topaz prawn
sharp owl
#

So they're not mirages

topaz prawn
sharp owl
#

You don't need to ping me so frequently

#

And "change photon to mirage" doesn't make sense

topaz prawn
#

I mean lmao

sharp owl
#

Again, please do not ping me when I'm immediately present and active in the discussion

sharp owl
topaz prawn
#

If its the reflection

#

If thing change in matplane

sharp owl
#

It's not a literal reflection

topaz prawn
#

Will it change in the reflections

sharp owl
#

But changes in the material plane are generally reflected in the feywild and shadowfell, depending on the change

topaz prawn
#

Like someone make a big explosion that change the landscape

obsidian gate
#

Reflection means things in the prime have a counterpart in the feywild. But it’s not literally a mirror where only one side is physical

topaz prawn
#

Will it carry over

sharp owl
#

For example, a bustling city in the prime material plane might appear as a giant tree in the feywild and a smouldering volcano in the shadowfell
A large fire in the prime might be relfected as the tree shedding leaves in the feywild and the volcano erupting in the shadowfell

sharp owl
topaz prawn
#

What about if toril go boom

#

Will feywild and shadowfell disapear

sharp owl
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

#

This channel is not for speculating on the lore, but discussing what the lore actually says

topaz prawn
#

Ok

#

What happened to shadowfell when tymanther swap place and got to toril

tropic drum
iron saffron
iron saffron
# topaz prawn Or its only the size of toril

Toril is a planet where the continent of Faerun is located (Faerun is the campaign setting of the Forgotten Realms).
Toril is one of nine planets in the system of Realmspace.
Realmspace is one of countless star systems in the Material Plane.

Think of the Shadowfell like the Upside Down World in Stranger Things.

sharp owl
#

Although the term used in D&D is wildspace system rather than star system

cold widget
#

Does every elf mature in same speed as humans?

iron saffron
#

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/races#ElfTraits

Age. Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old.

jagged apex
jagged apex
merry atlas
#

Can a devil be redeemed?

iron saffron
#

Sure because if a celestial can fall from grace a fiend can rise to grace. However, they're unlikely to survive in the Nine Hells. (see 2E Planescape's Faces of Evil: The Fiends, page 32).

jagged apex
#

thus likely why some non evil devils we see in 5e reside in sigil

iron saffron
#

Yes, it's a safe haven.

jagged apex
#

especially from gods, of which these days asmodeus is one of, so is not like the lord of the 9 can just force them to come back or grab them

iron saffron
#

Well, there's a chain of command. Someone down the line is going to get punished for AWOL devils...

jagged apex
#

true, such is the way of infernal society

#

though if memory serves there are some devils that also are particularly skilled at hunting down such devils, but within the walls of sigil, causing conflict is a risky thing to say the least

merry atlas
#

Hummm

#

Thank you

jagged apex
#

something i fell worth noting though, these changes in alignment after often drastically more difficult for these creatures to do as it is effectively going against their very nature, devils are beings who are lawful evil incarnate, and this is the same reason why often when a celestial falls from grace it is because the thing they do they are convinced is the morally right thing to do, regardless of if that is true or not, the most notable case of this is Zariel

#

basically just like the outerplanes are metaphysical, so to are the beings who dwell there, as for such beings their body and soul are one in the same, unlike us mortals

cyan holly
#

Qweschon about sorcerers....
Since they know magic by instinct and not because they studied it... does that mean they can cast spells without saying the magic formula like mages?

#

Like, for example, i'm a sorcerer and know how to talk with animals... do i need to say the magic words or do i just speak with them? 🤔 same for fireball, do i just cast it from my hands or do i have to say "fireball" or "Ignis" lol

unkempt merlin
#

They still require component to cast, but that's not so much a lore thing overall

feral lintel
#

That doesnt really seem like a lore question

iron saffron
#

That's gameplay mechanics territory — you still need to cast the spells according to their component types as per the spell descriptions.

cyan holly
#

it's kinda forgotten realms lore but yeah

iron saffron
#

No, it's class gameplay mechanic. Again, read the individual spell descriptions and which components are required.

jagged apex
#

the main difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is how they are able to use magic or learn to do it, effectively they are still doing the same sort of actions and using the same sort of incantations and what not to actually use cast the spells they use

haughty olive
iron saffron
#

That's flavour and not lore.

haughty olive
#

Yeahhh just saying I've seen it demonstrated in lore.

#

E.g. Catti-brie casting a fireball vs. Gromph Baenre.

iron saffron
#

They were asking about a gameplay mechanic and it was already explained to them.

feral lintel
#

How did merfolks come to be?

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

does not seem their is any clear connection between their creation and their history in the realms, presumably happened sometime before -20000 DR

daring rock
#

Lolth is me fr

brittle plank
#

since rune shaper has an enemy rune, are there "enemy giants"?

feral lintel
#

Fairly sure thats just the runic word for enemy

sharp owl
#

Yeah, the runes correspond to words, not giant types

feral lintel
#

Any giant can be an enemy if you pissed them off somehow

#

Theres also a drsgon rune, but theres no dragon gia- wait, can half dragons be giants?

modest badger
#

Yep

#

"A beast, humanoid, giant, or monstrosity can become a half-dragon. It keeps its statistics, except as follow."

feral lintel
#

... new NPC idea
Are there any recorded half drsgon giants?

modest badger
#

There was one in a 3.5 Dungeon Magazine/ Free to use oneshot called 'Crumbling Hall of the Frost Giant Jarl' that was rather unusual:

In his youth, Gungir dallied with a white dragon that had taken the form of a frost giant. The product of their union was a bizarre half-dragon centauroid creature, with the torso of a frost giant attached to the wingless body of a white dragon.

#

"Bonesplitter, the monstrous spawn of the green dragon Claugiyliamatar and an ettin."

feral lintel
#

Oooh~!

#

... That sounds so cool actually

dusky quail
#

Hey quick question for the experts here:

Is there a reason why a high level wizard's attempts to contact Mystra be declined/accepted?

sharp owl
#

That's not really a lore question

modest badger
#

Is this a lore topic?

The general rule of thumb for this channel is ‘Can this question be answered with a quote from an official book that isn't a game rule?’

Before redirecting a user to another channel clarify what they are asking about, consider if there is any lore at all to answer with, give that answer along with directing to a channel that might be of better help and explain why.

Lore Appropriate

  • Origins & Design - Discussions of the ideas and concepts behind the lore, such as inspirations or products. Try to avoid tangents, or take them to #non-dnd-topics
  • In-Game Grounding - Discussions of lore as it relates to the mechanics of the game. Keep in mind that questions about the rules are better suited to #dnd-discussion or #dnd-rules

Not Lore Appropriate

  • Opinions on lore - Opinions on changes to the lore, the availability of it, or any other similar topics are better suited to #dnd-discussion
  • Hypothetical questions - Speculative questions about published settings are better suited to #dm-discussion or #dm-world-building
modest badger
grim siren
#

Its important to note that Mystra as well as the other Faerunian Pantheon broke their near century long silence at the end of the Second Sundering. But they did not return to their public, boisterous personas that existed in the Time of Troubles, and the years of Netheril's Return.

The gods "commune" with mortals subtly unless with rare exception, like with Eilistraee who personally announced her return with an avatar appearing in the moonlight or the Mulhorandi Pantheon who ruled over their people like the Imaskari God-Kings of old.

With Mystra being... a particularly active god even she does not appear to everyday mortals even exceptional ones. You see her in offical material interacting with things often. But its very important to note those she interacts with are her Chosen, and Chosen get the special perks. Those being her daughters like Open Lord Larel of Waterdeep, or Lady Alustriel of the Wizards Three, and Elminster Aumar.

Sources Used:

Ed Greenwood (2016-06-07). Death Masks. (Wizards of the Coast). ISBN 0-7869-6593-2.

Steve Kenson, et al. (November 2015). Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Edited by Kim Mohan. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 14. ISBN 978-0-7869-6580-9.

Steve Kenson, et al. (November 2015). Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Edited by Kim Mohan. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 18. ISBN 978-0-7869-6580-9.

Larian Studios (October 2020). Designed by Swen Vincke, et al. Baldur's Gate III. Larian Studios.

Ed Greenwood, Erin M. Evans, Paul S. Kemp, R.A. Salvatore, Richard Lee Byers, Troy Denning, James Wyatt (August 21th, 2012). What is the Sundering? (Part 1). Link to Official DnD Video Discussion the Sundering at GenCon 2012

grim siren
modest badger
#

Those should still be acceptable- even though they're not official lore, they can still give insight into design choices. Saying where the source comes from should help indicate to a user if they want to give it weight or not.

grim siren
#

Thank you much for the clarifications.

modest badger
#

(They are the LAI to the LAW dndLol )

silent atlas
#

Any one onow who are the current great wyrms that are tiamats husbands

brisk mesa
#

itd be cool if in gnome culture they rode saddled dogs like horses

jagged apex
iron saffron
agile patio
brisk mesa
#

s

silent atlas
jagged apex
#

idk, all i know is Ephelomon is her red dragon consort

jagged apex
#

seems dragotha was a red dragon too, but has long since become a dracolich

#

and far as i can tell Etiol was also a red dragon, but can't find anything on Apsu or Kingsu

silent atlas
#

Also tiamat is known to kill and eat there consorts when they get to old

feral lintel
#

She has 5 at a time usually, ine of each chromatic color

jagged apex
raven sigil
#

What is the Evilest Faction you have joined?

iron saffron
quiet dove
#

A grung pacifist grung dreams to be a dragon, he can learn from the metallics, which metal should he go to? He a protective druidic boi

iron saffron
quiet dove
#

Very well^^

true solstice
#

Question: Are Githyanki mammals or reptiles

sharp owl
#

Neither

#

Obstensibly real world taxonomy falls apart in D&D

true solstice
# sharp owl Neither

To be honest, my working theory is that Githyanki are monotremes like platypus

Mammals that lay eggs

unkempt merlin
#

Dnd doesn't do taxonomy for a reason

serene crater
#

quick question, but have any survivors of the fall of the old netherese empire been noted that aren't liches?

eager bay
#

Does vecna have mindflayers in his army? Or do mindflayers serve no one but themselves?

#

Or they will serve someone but only if it benefits them?

iron saffron
#

Mind flayers aren't fans of arcane magic. They prefer psionics.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_flayer#Magic

Mind flayers considered arcane magic an abomination. They viewed it as an inferior and corrupt form of psionic power that should disappear from the universe once the illithids regained control of it.

eager bay
#

Ooh

#

Okay that actually makes sense, can mindflayers have free will or do they only really live to further the species? Like can a single mind flayer feel differently

iron saffron
#

Mind flayers who toy with arcane magic are outcasts.

eager bay
#

I thought elder brains were kinda like the halo flood, when they grow big enough they become elder brains, is there only one?