#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 48 of 1

jagged apex
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that's what i could find on the believe system, is super specific to the forgotten realms, to my knowledge is not even known of, let alone practiced elsewhere in the multiverse

sharp owl
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Yeah, it's niche within the FR itself

wooden cipher
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You guys know this much better than I, how would Theros a crystal of Mythspace be part of the multiverse? How is that Authril (did I get that right) made the connection to Theros in the late 1480s from Toril in realmspace and brought in a 'person'. Where is this leading in relation to what you know about the lore of the gods?

jagged apex
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no

feral lintel
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Theros and Strixhaven are MtG collaborations

jagged apex
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mtg and dnd are two seperate multiverses

iron saffron
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Mythspace isn't official AFAIK.

wooden cipher
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It was official FR lore that Auril made the connection to Theros? (got her name right)

feral lintel
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?

wooden cipher
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Who here thinks there will be a Theros connection in the world of Toril in the active gaming world of Faerun? I see the groundwork has been laid in this lore.

jagged apex
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1 specific continuity, and two, it was a byproduct of her messing with planar magics

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it was by no means a concious effort

wooden cipher
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byproduct or not a link has been established

jagged apex
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byproduct, it pulled some things from theroes into the forgotten realms, specifically icewind dale

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no link was actually made

wooden cipher
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And if Theros than we are dealing with a power greater than the Ao the overseer of realmspace.

feral lintel
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Its still seperate from normal DnD lore

jagged apex
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the planar magic mentioned was likely do to was likely part of her plan that kept that land cut off from the rest of toril

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dnd has multiple continuities

wooden cipher
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If it pulled things in, then a link existed that was not their previously. A link has been established, to discover it is not for mortals, but gods certainly could.

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The "normal D&D lore" is kind of messed up.

jagged apex
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the mentioned part is from "Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms" and indie game, every edition and every form of media of dnd is a different continuity, things from other media are NOT automatically canon to the published setting as seen in adventure books

jagged apex
wooden cipher
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Luiren was a happy land of halflings, Luiren became the Gulf of Luiren and killed them all! Then a drought struck, oh look tectonic plates shifted and the sea level changed once again!

iron saffron
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Movies, comics, video games, MtG IP, etc are separate from the "main canon" of D&D TTRPG.

jagged apex
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much like dragonball, there is no 1 continuity

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there are at a minimum, multiple

iron saffron
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Think of the MCU movies are separate from the Marvel Comics' continuity despite sharing similarities.

jagged apex
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even more so, as technically the mcu is a universe that exists in marvel comics itself

wooden cipher
iron saffron
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Theros is just a product crossover of two properties owned by WotC.

jagged apex
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Theroes is factually not even in the dnd multiverse, it is part of a separate multiverse

feral lintel
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Like Strixhaven

jagged apex
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not everything with the dnd brand on it is part of the dnd multiverse automatically

iron saffron
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It's like claiming LotR is part of MtG just because WotC did a special LotR card set for MtG.

wooden cipher
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How about a tie-in, why would this be against canon, when the DR advances?

jagged apex
jagged apex
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when you mention canon, unless you specify which one, you are going in with a flawed line of logic

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even the published continuity of the settings is only 1 version of it

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ed greenwood, creator of the forgotten realms, has his own version, the ones we get from wizards of the coast are their version which is rooted in his ideas but has differences on a number of details or omits certain things entirely

iron saffron
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You're welcome to have the MtG stuff be canon at your table though. That's the prerogative of all DMs.

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Canon =/= lore.

jagged apex
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yeah, just don't expect it to be acknowledge by published materials unless they consciously decide to do so definitively, at best the connection debatable as the cross over adventures i am told were not written by the dnd team, but rather by the mtg team, as far as the published continuity is concerned they are objectively two different multiverses, at least for the current time being in the 5e continuity

wooden cipher
iron saffron
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"What if" scenarios isn't really the territory of this channel though.

wooden cipher
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This has been a long conversation based on the existing lore as well as looking into creativeness.

sharp owl
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The "connection" between Toril and Theros is not actually part of any lore but simply marketing copy to justify adding another character to a licensed D&D game. At very most it's entirely limited to the "canon" of that game

sharp owl
wooden cipher
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The Adama is a power perhaps greater than Ao, and the multiverse/realmspace continuity has been left open regarding the existing lore of the Adama

sharp owl
jagged apex
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and even then, pulling something in by accident in one continuity, does not mean you can put those things back, far as we know, that example in the "Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms", was one way

sharp owl
jagged apex
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just cuz mortals think it in a small portion of a fraction of a planet out of many enhabited planets does not make it so

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unless those mortals are kuo-toa, they are kind of weird for their own reasons and are not the same as the power of actual gods, let alone overgods

wooden cipher
sharp owl
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Not wrong group, wrong channel

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Please take the time to read channel descriptions

wooden cipher
sharp owl
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That's not accurate

jagged apex
wooden cipher
jagged apex
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i said no such thing, nor implied that

sharp owl
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In the Forgotten Realms, along with many other settings, deities are objective facts. They are verifiable. The Adama belief is a niche belief that is not only unverifiable, but actually contradicts what can be observed in the world

jagged apex
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i was speaking objectively

sharp owl
feral lintel
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It not being confirmed also doenst make them any less correct

sharp owl
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Belief in Adama is fringe belief that is neither grounded diegetically nor non- diegetically

wooden cipher
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Incorrect, there is no reduction in the Lore of the Adama as compared with lore regarding anyone else. Just because you are unfamiliar with the concepts, and that they are not as well explored as SOME other gods and portfolios. It is STILL 100% verifiable and allowable in the continuity as you can read in https://dnd.wizards.com/news/dnd-canon

sharp owl
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I'm not saying it's not canon...

sharp owl
feral lintel
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Ahh

wooden cipher
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The aspects of the gods venerated in the Adama actually cause a change in the gods' behavior. Any gods may be worshipped in these lands, but the aspects of 5 gods are primary.

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THe FR wiki doesn't cover this well enough.

sharp owl
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If you have sources, you're free to share them

jagged apex
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unlike the gods themselves, the ideas behind the adama are not undeniable facts of existence, in the forgotten realms the god are real and confirmed beings of immense power and are factually true divine entities, both in terms of power and status, is kind of like the world serpent, is less of an entity and more of an idea

wooden cipher
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Shining South by peter somebody

jagged apex
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it is something believed by some in universe, but is not confirmed with cold hard facts by anyone

wooden cipher
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World Serpent is not the Adama

sharp owl
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Scarlet didn't say it was, they were making a comparison

jagged apex
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i never said it was the adama

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you seem to not be reading everything as carefully as you are others, a comparison and something being one in the same are two entirely different things

wooden cipher
# jagged apex i never said it was the adama

You appear to enjoy saying that phrase when it is clear that you both reduced the validity of the Adama as compared to any other Faerunian belief - when the source of D&D Canon describes the opposite. And then to say the Adama is as the World_Serpent, a concept alone. No, it is as valid as any other belief in the continuity.

jagged apex
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the world serpent is not a concept alone

sharp owl
jagged apex
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it literally is believed by some to be an entity and others to be more conceptual

feral lintel
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Isnt there also a similar thing going on with Yggdrassil/The World Tree

jagged apex
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i am not trying to reduce the validity of anything in anyway, i am speaking as objectively as possible, or trying to at least

modest badger
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Thomas R. Ried for Shining south.

sharp owl
wooden cipher
sharp owl
iron saffron
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The World Tree was the cosmology used on Toril until the 5E era and the cosmologists switched to the Great Wheel cosmology. It doesn't mean suddenly the planes were shifted around or disappeared but rather how mortals see the multiverse from their perspective.

wooden cipher
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I note tht you will find in the Wikis mention that there are No Temples to the Adama. That was an incorrect entry. There are rarely if ever temples to a specific god, there are examples of minor shrines. But the Adama is the system of the Shining Lands in FR lore.

sharp owl
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There are frequently temples to specific deities....

wooden cipher
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The only temple in Chavyondat was to the Adama. So the Wiki fails here. The lore is very difficult in this world. Greyhawk was easier.

modest badger
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Somewhere along the way, the Durpari found religion. A simple merchant began preaching of the Adama, both a belief system and a code of conduct. To the Durpari, the Adama is the one true force guiding their lives, and all deities in Faerûn are considered a part of it.

there is also discussions of contradictions in this faith, such as some gods (evil ones, ones thta desire human sacrifice) not being included despite the view that all gods are part of Adama and so can be worship. Started about -256 in FR, then accepted as state religion in -112, making it a young religion in context.

The clerics of Adama still recieve power, but then technically clerics can gain power from philosophies and forces too.
Religion in FR is... mix.

wooden cipher
wooden cipher
modest badger
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Not all gods. They do have restrictions.

jagged apex
iron saffron
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Mortals could worship gods but Ao has the control of which gods have a presence in Realmspace. So temples could be dedicted to gods but may not have prescence in Realmspace because they're cut off by Ao.

iron saffron
jagged apex
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yeah gods have their own rules and laws that even they in their selfishness dare not break, that is why there are rarely if ever cases of things like crusades or mass conversions such you would see in our world

modest badger
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In practice, however, not every deity is acceptable. Some are favored because they embody the core values of the Adama better than others. In particular, Zionel (Gond), Curna (Oghma), Lucha (Selûne), Torm, and Waukeen represent the broadest aspects of day-to-day life in the Shining Lands, and thus their followers are welcomed above all others. Other deities—specifically those that require human sacrifice, and Mask, who represents thievery—are rejected because the tenets of their faiths are at cross-purposes with those of the Adama. This seeming contradiction does not bother the inhabitants of the Shining Lands. The opposite of a cherished principle might be a philosophical necessity, but that doesn’t make it appealing.

But it does look like Adama hasn't been touched upon since 3rd edition.

wooden cipher
jagged apex
wooden cipher
modest badger
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Greyhawk also wasn't that simple when it came to religion. Religion really should never be simple, but D&D does like it to be mechanised and codified.
But you had gods in Greyhawk who believed themselves to be the only true god, you had gods who gained power by pretending to be other gods, hidden gods, so on.

jagged apex
wooden cipher
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ok, you got it all, tell me what occurs in 1527 DR lol

jagged apex
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?

wooden cipher
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And btw do you consider the year to be 1499 DR based on Adenture's league and 5e starting in 1484 DR?

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IS that right?

jagged apex
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i am saying no such thing, wizards of the coast has for a long time been focused on the sword coast and more recently has been focusing on expanding the multiverse and what is known about it, and have consistantly been reluctant or at least hesitant to revisit some of the older settings set on toil because of the stereotypes and uncomfortable subject matter and writing of it's time they were based in

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i am honestly just shy of a bit offended you think i am acting like some know it all just cuz i am not making assumtions about something i have 0 control over or insider info on

iron saffron
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WotC has avoided "locking down" the specific years when the 5E campaigns/adventures happen. They seem very reluctant to move the timeline forward and canonize it.

wooden cipher
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It's such a rich continent though, the lore regarding the past 120 years is just chaos, destroyed/refreshed. There is so much that can be if they revisit of these areas. I do have an issue with Dambruth being brought back in, but it must, I just haven't thought on that.

modest badger
sharp owl
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It's important to note there's no current year, just the furthest date reached.

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Published adventures will visit older dates

jagged apex
iron saffron
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Forgotten Realms Timeline
Netheril -3859 DR to -339 DR
Cormanthyr 650 DR
Fall of Myth Drannor 714 DR
1E 1356 to 1358 DR
2E 1367 to 1370 DR
3E 1372 to 1374 DR
4E 1479 to 1480 DR
5E 1490+

jagged apex
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the most recent date to my knowledge we have in 5e is 1496 DR at least if going by adventures and sourcebooks and not delving into other media and thus continuities

wooden cipher
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Where's prince to party like it's 1499!

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DR

jagged apex
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technically all info we get is past tense, in universe, ed greenwood would basically sell adaptations of descriptions on the world of toril and the realms as a whole by elminster, his counterpart he in our world created in the forgotten realms alongside the setting when they would regularly visit, elminster and mordenkainen sometimes would visit ed, as earth is a place in the dnd multiverse canonically

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ed hiding in the suit of armor

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so if going by that history, could be elminster has not yet payed ed a visit recently, else it is very much outside the bounds of lore

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makes me wonder, do we know when "eye of ruin" is gunna be set in the timeline or is that info they have not revealed yet?

iron saffron
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¯_(ツ)_/¯

sharp owl
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They generally don't announce the DR date of adventures, sometimes it's not even in the adventure itself

jagged apex
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ok, just was curious since we were somewhat on the topic of such

wet flower
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I dont know if this is a rules or lore question but how do most gods view if someone becomes immortal?

iron saffron
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Which setting?

wet flower
iron saffron
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Numerous mortals have been promoted to deities in Realmspace, of course with Ao's consent.

agile merlin
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I think maybe they meant more like immortality without apotheosis

wet flower
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Yes. Literally casting wish to become immortal.

iron saffron
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Wish isn't that powerful.

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Anyway, this is out of the territory of this channel.

modest badger
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Some gods of death may view it as unnatural, although they typically view undeath as unnatural. The source of immortality can be very important here.

iron saffron
agile merlin
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If you didn't word it carefully, you could maybe be polymorphed into something that's technically immortal, like a lobster or something

wet flower
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Wait lobsters are immortal?

feral lintel
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It also depends on the nature of your immortality- oh god, forgot lobsters are virtually immortal

wet flower
# iron saffron Wish isn't that powerful.

"You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the GM as precisely as possible. The GM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.

The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress."

I mean it can if the DM allows it.

iron saffron
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Again, not the territory of this channel since it's not D&D lore-related.

wet flower
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Okay.

feral lintel
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As i said before, it also depends on the nature and type of immortality

wet flower
iron saffron
magic jackal
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Also if you become immortal in the forgotten realms there's every chance a Marut could show up and say "stop that"

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there's plenty of ways to live forever, but few ways to get away with it long-term ironically

jagged apex
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outside of some exceptions that are more likely liberties taken with certain continuities, like bg3 for example

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but historically if trying to cheat death, maruts will have a bit of leeway as they will not just automatically hunt you down, but if you returned from or cheated death one too many times or otherwise try to avoid death via extreme means, to quote their entry on the forgotten realms wiki "These inevitables hunted down those who tried to deny or cheat death in the most extreme manners. They overlooked people who simply struggled to stay alive or even used raise dead or other resurrection magic. Rather, maruts targeted anyone who used unnatural methods to extend their existence, such as by lichdom, or went to terrible lengths to keep death at bay, such as a ruler sacrificing hundreds of people to avoid a plague. Excessive or extensive use of resurrection magic might earn a marut's concern" cited as being from "Manual of the Planes" for 3rd edition and "Monster Manual v.3.5" for dnd 3.5e

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for context inevitables were extremely powerful constructs designed to preserve certain cosmic laws of the universe, in 5e, from what we have seen they largely have been repurposed given what we see of it in their 5e entry, so this implies that the issue is not too common in the current continuity to where they need every single marut ready to be deployed

tardy wasp
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In the setting I'm building, deities are difficult to anthropomorphize, though many worshipers still attempt to fit them into boxes. They are not like Zeus or Odin, immortal human-like beings who claim dominion over some aspect(s) of the world. In my world, to try and separate a deity from their cosmic province or portfolio is very misguided. They technically do not rule over anything; it is more accurate to think of them as actually being one and the same as their domains. They are both divine persons AND cosmic forces at the same time, with little to no distinction existing between them.

Was thinking about my setting's background situating in somewhere in the larger DnD multiverse, so I'd like to incorporate some multispheric deities from the core lore, even if in concept only. I read in Tome of Foes that many elven Wizards and theologians believe that Corellon is actually the deific personality of raw magic itself, which kind of fits what I'm aiming for. Are there any other major gods that can be thought of similarly?

feral lintel
tardy wasp
feral lintel
iron saffron
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This channel only deals with official D&D published lore.

jagged apex
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these beings are what in published lore is often referred to in such practices

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besides a god can take on on the form of nearly anything including animals, with different limitations depending on divine rank, even what their for lack of a better term public image is

jagged apex
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else the kind of beings you are looking for in published lore are at least some kinds of nature/primeval spirits

unkempt merlin
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Tome of foes being legacy doesn't stop it being canon

feral lintel
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Hmm.. reading over the post again, the #dnd-lore lore question could be:
What gods that have multiple spheres of influence exist?

unkempt merlin
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It's still fully canon for the FR

jagged apex
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i though part of legacy content was it being considered out of date for the current version of 5e?

unkempt merlin
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Nothing contradicts Tome of Foes for the lore of the FR

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It's still canon

feral lintel
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Legacy content is more for FR lore, isnt it?

unkempt merlin
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It's for mechanics

jagged apex
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ah

iron saffron
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Unless something in 5E overrides it's still considered canon. This has happened with ever successive edition where lore is either updated or reverted (see 4E FR lore changes).

sharp owl
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Not quite, although this channel isn't purely concerned with canon

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Lore and canon lore aren't the same thing, this channel is concerned with the former moreso than the latter

agile merlin
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How does elven reincarnation work? I'm pretty sure there's some stage in their lives when memories from past lives start to show up while they trance. Is there any reliable timeframe when this starts to occur, and is there maybe some pattern of how old these memories are, as in how many or how few lives back they come from?

iron saffron
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They forget their past lives when they hit 100-years-old, that's when they consider themselves adults. Of course, this is only for elves who follow the Seldarine.

agile merlin
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So it's in their trances pre-centennial that they have those memories?

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Or was I just wrong about that :p

agile patio
boreal acorn
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How smart is a manticore? Could it be smart enough to make complex plans and schemes?

unkempt merlin
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As a general thing, they can speak

jagged apex
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as for complex plans or schemes, with the average manticore, seems unlikely, then again at least in 5e the average manticore is as smart as the average orc

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depends how complexed you are thinking i'd imagine

boreal acorn
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ah ok

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thanks

ebon trellis
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question about ghosts and kelemvor

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does kelemvor hate ghosts?

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or is there some empathy there depending on the alignment

modest badger
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Yes and also No.
So Official Lore is that Kelemvor (or least his church) will hunt down all undead:
The full quote here:

In fact, all the faithful of Kelemvor despise the undead and work to some degree to eliminate them, for undead of any sort are seen as an abomination of the natural order. This belief obviously puts Kelemvor's faithful at odds with necromancers, priests of Myrkul, and others who promote the creation of the undead, and it also causes conflict from unexpected sources. For instance, priests of Kelemvor routinely destroy any writings about the creation of the undead that they find—an act that offends those who value knowledge for its own sake, such as the faithful of Oghma and Deneir. And there also exist undead that aren't evil, such as the baelnorn, which the elves consider holy. Kelemvor's devotees seek the end of such beings regardless of that fact.
SCAG 5e

Now if this was taken alone this would just mean that Kelemvor's devotees, following the guidance of their deity, seek to end undeath in any form.

Ed Greenwood, who can treat like Crawford is for rules, for FR lore- not official, but insightful, says Kelemvor wouldn't command the destruction of good undead and that's a misunderstanding.

ebon trellis
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i was asking because i am making a character that can see ghosts due to a familal curse

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although, cant everyone see ghosts?

modest badger
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When they're on the material plane, not when they're on the ethereal plane.

Etherealness: The ghost enters the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, or vice versa. It is visible on the Material Plane while it is in the Border Ethereal, and vice versa, yet it can't affect or be affected by anything on the other plane.

ebon trellis
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so can anyone view them if theyre on the border ethereal?

modest badger
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Oh my bad- yes. You can see them any time. I just assumed they'd be invisible when in the ethereal, as most are.

ebon trellis
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so how would a character who "sees ghosts" work in faerun?

night ledge
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why are there not more clerics of Ao?

modest badger
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Ao has no time for them.

jagged apex
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nor need, and most stopped worshiping him once they did learn of him and got 0 power for their worship

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there are gods, such as overgods, like Ao, who do not need or want worship, the lady of pain is another such entity, who is known to inflict horrible pain on anyone who dares attempt to worship her

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at least lord Ao will simply ignore you, so the cult of Ao is lucky in that regard

modest badger
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Ao has little concern for day-to-day mortal life, but he regards the powers of the Realms as his creations. He requires no worshipers and grants no spells to mortals. It is doubtful that he even listens to mortal prayers or pleas. He serves as a watcher and a guardian over the Realms from outside of its cosmos.
(...)
Immediately following the Time of Troubles, cults grew up that worshiped Ao directly. These cults appeared suddenly and then evaporated just as quickly when it became clear that Ao did not answer prayers, offer protection, or grant spells to faithful priests.
Faiths and Avatars 2e

jagged apex
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and according to the wiki at least, the other gods told their faithful that Ao does not interact with mortals, which makes sense, they only happen to see him when he manifested to chastise the freshly cast down gods during the time of troubles, at least if i am remembering correctly

boreal acorn
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Who was Talos’s greatest rival god?

jagged apex
boreal acorn
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Thanks

raw condor
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In actual lore... besides dragons... is there any race that despises Giants or Giants themselves hate?

iron saffron
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Which setting?

modest badger
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One difficulty with that is that races aren't monoliths- especially in 5e. Some groups will have animosity towards each other, but it's based on historical conflicts specifically between those groups- which massively depends on edition and setting
Most giants would infight among each other honestly.

quaint geyser
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Ya'll got some info on what the Dohwar are usually named like?

iron saffron
jagged apex
# raw condor In actual lore... besides dragons... is there any race that despises Giants or G...

depends on the setting, but in some such as forgotten realms, if memory serves, dwarves don't like giants and are effectively enemies of giants quote "Dwarves did not forgive past wrongs easily and the entire race had more or less declared war on goblins and orcs as a whole, wiping them out where they found them. Many dwarves viewed these races as a foul infestation of their mountain homes and felt it was their duty to purge them. Likewise, many dwarves viewed drow and grimlocks with a similar hatred and few dwarves had forgotten their ancestral hatred of the giants who'd once enslaved them." as the part describing their people's enemies in the realms https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarf#Interracial_Relations

jagged apex
wooden cipher
iron saffron
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Wut?

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Wildspace is in the Material Plane.

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Material Plane is "our" universe. Wildspace is the void between star systems.

wooden cipher
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Well, the description of Spelljammer states that Wildspace has the unknown and this is not Realmspace

iron saffron
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Realmspace is the star system where Toril is located (Toril is the planet where the Forgotten Realms campaign setting is).

wooden cipher
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There are infinite Wildspace systems that contain countless D&D worlds, most of which are eponymously named after their defining characteristic. Take, for instance, Realmspace, the Wildspace system in which Toril, the world of the Forgotten Realms setting, is located.

iron saffron
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The Material Plane is the universe where mortals are. It contains unlimited number of systems, such as Realmspace, Greyspace, and Krynnspace.

wooden cipher
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PP 300-303 of the PHB also allude to there being much that isn't known

iron saffron
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Wildspace is just the name for the void in and between those systems.

wooden cipher
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The map in Spelljammer shows several WIlspace and the description says the best way there is via the astral plane

iron saffron
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In 2E Spelljammer it used to be phlogiston between crystal spheres.

wooden cipher
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Sounds like there are separations.

iron saffron
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5E Spelljammer changed how spelljamming is. It's no longer moving through the phlogiston but through the Astral Sea (think Star Wars' hyperspace).

wooden cipher
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thanks

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I'm just looking further into the powers and possibilites, thanks for the discussion.

next sage
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(forgotten realms)
saw something about elves having visions about reincarnation or something vaguely similar during trances.
what was that? i hadn't heard it before but it seemed vaguely important

jagged apex
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is mainly something that only occurs in the first 30 years of their life from what i recall

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this is because, in the forgotten realms do to events among their god and his former wife, the majority of elves, ie mortal elves, were forbidden for the time being of returning to their heaven for a prolonged period of time, thus each soul is reincarnated

agile patio
#

It happens all throughout their life, not just the first 30 or 100 or whatever years

jagged apex
#

huh, from what i heard was something that eventually would only be of that current life, which is why the time when they get to an age where they no longer have those memories from past lives such a saddening time for them, but i is possible i might have been misinformed, as the question posed and answer given by ed did not go into clear detail on that part of the proccess

warped heron
#

So, i googled changlings and there are like 3 different origins for them. I sort of want to know if anyone can tell me which one is more widely accepted as the origin for them for 5e?

#

One origin is that they evolved into a race of their own from humans and dopplegangers. Another, is that they come from the Feywild. The last one is that The Traveler promised to protect some kids as long as they followed it.

sharp owl
#

There is no single origin because there are multiple settings

#

The Traveller origin is from the Eberron setting

#

I believe the Feywild one is the current setting agnostic origin and the human/doppelganger offspring is I think the Forgotten Realms origin

modest badger
#

MpMM which is the most recent 5e book, but also more setting generic has this;

The first changelings in the multiverse appeared in the Feywild, and the wondrous, mutable essence of that plane lingers in changelings today—even in those changelings who have never set foot in the fey realm.

In ERftLW changelings are given a mythical origin:

Long ago there was a woman named Jes, and she had one hundred children. Her rivals conspired against her and swore to kill her children. Jes begged the Sovereigns for help, but their only answer was the wind and rain. (...) Jes agreed, and the traveler gave her his cloak. When she draped it over her children, their old faces melted away and they could be whoever they wanted to be.

warped heron
#

So if I was going to be in a Strixhaven I would go with the Feywild origin?

sharp owl
#

No, you should ask your DM

#

Strixhaven is an MtG setting and changlings have their own origins in that setting group

warped heron
#

Oh ty

modest badger
#

That'd probably be the most 'official' setting generic lore in a sense, but worth discussing with DMs.
I'm personally of the opinion that lore published outside of D&D for a setting doesn't really count as 'D&D lore' and can't be expected to be known or used, but at the same time, why wouldn't you draw upon that extended lore if you knew about it?

sharp owl
#

For the purpose of this channel, it counts

#

It's under the same umbrella as how D&D novels and comics count for the purpose of lore

#

Ah, you mean stuff printed outside of the lore of the Strixhaven setting, aka wider MtG lore?

#

Yeah, that's a bit weird for the purpose of this channel, but can be useful

warped heron
#

Thank you both. I'm new to DnD and have a lot of catching up to do when it comes to the lore of stuff. I appreciate it.

sharp owl
#

There is a wiki of MtG lore that is a very good source for expanding on what is found in the setting books, as well as ancillary lore outside those settings
MtG Wiki
Just note that it's a wiki of the game mechanics as well as the lore

modest badger
#

Yep, sorry. Like if I as a D&D player bought Strixhaven, and had no knowledge of MTG and the actual MTG setting, I'd be relying entirely on the lore within the book, and other D&D books.
And there are times when rules and lore have to change to match a new medium.
But then if I did know about that lore or had access to it, it'd certainly help flesh out my game, even if some parts no longer fitted.

Also note with a Strixhaven game, the DM may choose to put it in any setting they like, so it might actually be Strixhaven in Faerun so on. So worth chatting to the DM about for sure on that one.

sharp owl
#

For a point of clarification, this channel does include lore published other than by WotC as long as it's for the setting and official (hence why TSR lore is within scope, as are novels/comics)

warped heron
#

Got you.

sharp owl
#

This means that lore about Theros (for example) found in the novels/cards/web articles would be within scope for a discussion on the Theros setting

modest badger
#

I think I remember an interesting discussion before on whether Strixhaven would use the Weave or the MTG Colour system. After that, found the 'not fully official but still interesting Planeshift Ixalan 'UA' had touched upon how to merge those systems. It still assumes the weave is being used, but also applies the colour theory to it:

Characters and Colors. In the language of the D&D game, the colors of mana are a means of categorizing the types of magic that suffuse all existence. When a spellcaster draws upon or manipulates the Weave (see chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook), part of that process involves tugging on a strand that connects to a land that produces mana of the desired color. Whether consciously or unconsciously, a druid casting barkskin tugs on a strand of the Weave connected to a forest in the world, drawing out the green mana needed to cast the spell.

sharp owl
#

The Weave is an odd one, because it's kinda like the cosmology of D&D; just a lens mortals view part of the universe through

modest badger
#

I think 5e is the only edition to make the Weave (by any other name) universal to all D&D settings. Definitely had a few 'Okay but pre 5e, what did Greyhawk say about how magic worked?' and just shrugging and going 'We have like.. a clip from 1e AD&D on how Greyhawk Magic worked and nothing else since, the setting didn't seem to think it was important to answer that question'.

And Darksun had a very different take.

jagged apex
#

part of the reason in darksun's case i believe was in part do to the events that transpired in the setting's past before the times where one would otherwise play in

#

though i could be wrong or otherwise just misremembering

modest badger
#

Oh I know, just talking baout how 5e's 'A weave by any other name' lore change on one hand makes mechanics and such easier to explain across the different settings, and doesn't really change much for some settings (Greyhawk with a weave equivalent works just fine), but hits some difficulties with settings that had very different explanations and lore around magic - Darksun and MTG settings being one.

shell gale
#

Besides just being "go read all of planescape book", is there a good....condensed storyline or official post etc etc. for lore and other happenings?

modest badger
#

Although I'm still of the opinion D&D MTG settings do just use the weave. They don't seem to mention the different colour manas at all. Ravinica mentions Mana casually in 'Mana geysers' and 'Manafocusing lens' on p.64 and a 'mana generator' on p.144, and Strixhaven mentions 'Mana scholar' twice, but with no explanation on what that means and no mention of colour. And leylines are also occasionally mentioned and Ravinica does mention the Implicit Maze'.

It's telling that if you want to include coloured mana and leylines in any detail in D&D, you'd have to homebrew the mechanics for such. The Ixalan 'UA' (Not really UA) PDF was the closest to an explanation on how MTG color system interacts with D&D weave system. And you'd otherwise have to DM fiat which spells or features so on are associated with which colour, what it means to focus on a colour or not, or if environment affects spells so on. Or if the lore of dead magic zones also equalling lifeforms withering and dying there too?

It could be done, I just don't see it in the D&D settings as are, which seem to just be using the weave mechanics as normal and implying that maybe MTG settings (Rav and Strix maybe) might see the weave as leylines and the Implicit Maze in rav. Ley lines are mentioned in FR, Greyhawk and Ravenloft too if I recall.

Although... I'm pretty sure WotC played with this idea before? Geomancer's in 3.5 used leylines and their ability is described as:

Ley Lines: At 2nd level, the geomancer learns to create magical connections with a specific type of terrain. Choose one of the following terrain types: aquatic, desert, forest, hills, marsh, mountains, or plains. In that terrain, the geomancer’s effective caster level for all spells increases by +1. At 6th level and again at 10th level, the character may either choose a new terrain in which to receive the benefit....

modest badger
jagged apex
#

at best maybe the canon outcomes of some of the adventures over the years, such as back in 2e where vecna's attempt tie siege control of sigil failed and once he was tossed out, the lady of pain basically rewrote reality to make it so he could not sneak his way back in via the sort of means he used to basically glitch into the city to begin with

#

otherwise, far as i know do to the nature of the setting/system, that compared to a traditional setting like the forgotten realms for example, does not really have a clear definited history of events

agile merlin
#

So you're telling me Vecna exploited a bug in reality, and the Lady of Pain released a patch

#

Tell me more

iron saffron
#

Yes.

agile merlin
#

I'm assuming he was a god by then, and it was the "no gods allowed" rule he got around?

iron saffron
#

Yes, he was a god back then and he found an exploit to enter Sigil. That pissed the Lady-of-Pain.

jagged apex
jagged apex
agile merlin
#

So he was trying to green card his god self into Sigil?

jagged apex
#

not sure what that means, far as i know his plot to escape the domains of dread by becoming a full on deity, thus beyond the the power of the dark powers that kept him there, wound up leading into his entry into sigil, far as i know that was not planned, just something that he was all too willing to exploit the opprotunity of

wooden cipher
#

Clarification request. I had originally read that the Full Moon of Uktar was the Feast of the Moon and this occured either the 13th or 14th of Uktar. Another said the Full Moon of Uktar and the Feast of the Moon are the extra day between Uktar 30 and Nightal 1. However when looking at the moon calender for the years, the Full Moon of Uktar occurs on either the 15, or the 16th. Is there then a disconnect between the day of the full moon of Uktar and the festival day called Feast of the Moon?

jagged apex
wooden cipher
#

The feast day occurs between Uktar 30 and Nightal1 it's one of five extra days in the calendar of Harptos. However Roll of the Years, 1499 as page example, click "show lunar calendar", the full moon does have a specific date, and looking back several cycles of Shieldmeet this changed from the 16th to the 15th and back to the 16th. I forget which one, but I believe it was a FR wiki that showed 13,14th. I see what you are saying about this. But it would have been nice if the Feast of the Moon occurred on the full moon of Uktar.

sharp owl
#

So what is your question?

wooden cipher
# sharp owl So what is your question?

Clarification request about the Full Moon of Uktar and Feast of the Moon. I had several source differentiations and was checking with you to see if there was clarification.

sharp owl
#

Clarification as to what exactly?

#

Scarletstream seems to have pointed out the pertinent detail that it's a 'floating' holiday; one that isn't tied to a specific date

wooden cipher
#

Full moon of Uktar/Feast of the Moon

jagged apex
#

when i tried searching full moon of uktar closest thing i found was the feast of the moon

#

so far as i can tell "full moon of uktar" is not a thing

sharp owl
#

What specific piece of information are you trying to find out?

wooden cipher
#

The holiday falls between the two

jagged apex
#

the dates themselves are not, the holiday is

wooden cipher
#

The holiday always occurs between the fixed dates how is this floating

jagged apex
#

because it is not tied to any singular specific date

iron saffron
#

It's like Lunar New Year isn't fixed to a specific date.

jagged apex
#

the date is effectively arbitrary

sharp owl
jagged apex
#

and again, far as i am aware "full moon of uktar" is not a thing, be it as another name for the "feast of the moon" aka "moonfest" or otherwise

wooden cipher
#

So, we have the Feast of the Moon not linked to the full moon of uktar. That's clear. This is not a full moon festival simply a day added to the calendar of Harptos.

sharp owl
#

They may be referring to when the full moon occurs in the month of Uktar

jagged apex
#

there is no moon of uktar, since uktar is a month

#

toril's moon is known as Selune, same as the goddess of the moon

wooden cipher
#

yes the full moon in uktar of uktar uktar's full moon

#

Lucha

sharp owl
#

You're not being very clear

#

Repeating words doesn't help

jagged apex
#

i have never heard anyone refer to a moon by the month it appears in, like ever, in dnd or anything else, at least until you did now

tired granite
#

Same, can you provide a reference regarding this Full Moon of Uktar thing?

wooden cipher
#

Are you familiar with the Calendar of Harptos? There is a full moon in each month. Uktar is a month.

sharp owl
#

There's no need to be patronising

modest badger
#

So the full moon does fall on or around the feast of the moon.

#

So Feast of the Moon is a fixed date in that it always occurs at the day between Uktar and Nightgal. But the full moon might not occur on that date- sometimes it's the day before. But it does seem to always occur either on or before the Feast of the Moon.

wooden cipher
wooden cipher
#

The current Raja is funny to say outloud "Rajah Jasraj", I like that.

ebon trellis
#

for the forgotten realms, i am making a character that "sees" ghosts. but i realise that, well, everyone can see ghosts that are on the material plane/border ethereal(?)
how would i make a character that is haunted by ghosts?
i was thinking maybe, she can see them while they're in the deep ethereal, or even that she cant see them but hear them regardless of which plane they are from. i also considered that maybe she has an unnatural draw to death, and can feel the chill of death in areas where people have previously died, and that it could possibly lead to a ghost that she can interact with.

jagged apex
iron saffron
jagged apex
#

else lore wise, you would be probably wanting a poltergeist rather than a ghost

iron saffron
#

Giving yourself the ability to see "ghosts" (aka the ethereal) isn't something players should be giving themselves just because they wrote it in their backstory.

jagged apex
#

unless they have one of volo's special eyes, but not sure if that is bg3 specific or if that is something he has made in published materials too

ebon trellis
static sinew
#

What's the average lifespan of griffons? I know they reach adulthood after 3 but couldn't find lifespan.

modest badger
#

From Ecology of the Griffon, Dragon Magazine #161, 2e:

The lifespan of a griffon is very long, some serving several generations of a family. Actual lifespan is dependent on many factors but may extend as long as several centuries. One hundred and fifty years is considered average in the wild.

Not sure if there is more up to date info elsewhere, I'd need to check.

jagged apex
#

from what i was able to find online, apparently the average lifespan is about 60 years, though not sure how accurate that is but supposedly that may be it in 5e, but nothing i found in official 5e sources states the lifespan, just says they are considered fully grown after 3 years, at least as stated in icewind dale rime of the frostmaiden on page 163, so if going by that 60 years, i'd take it with a grain of salt since is likely not official

#

so unless they mention it in the upcoming reprints/revised versions of the core 5e books, if wanting an officialy given lifespan, would have to look to when it was last mentioned

quick badge
#

Could i get some info on the other planes of existence? Namely the Feywild and Shadowfell

#

And the astral plane

jagged apex
quick badge
#

Thank you

modest badger
ebon trellis
#

in waterdeep, how exactly does property ownership work? is there like. a property guild or something? i heard theres guilds for just about everything

#

basically im asking if thers money to make in property ownership

ebon trellis
#

also, what are some towns on the outskirts of waterdeep that are associated/owned by waterdeep?

tardy delta
next sage
#

Why are a lot of the forgotten realms wiki pages (especially locations) marked with 1372 DR? the only major thing that seems to have happened that year was the resurrection of bane, but that seems like not enough to warrant it as a benchmark date

jagged apex
#

from one of ed's videos on the hidden lords of waterdeep, seems it might be something handled by the government given what happened with mort

shy nexus
# next sage Why are a lot of the forgotten realms wiki pages (especially locations) marked w...

1372 DR was the starting date of 3rd-edition FRCS and also saw the return of the City of Shade and the beginning of a lot of other "Realms-shaking event" storylines. So quite a lot occurred in that year and it is the benchmark date for the 3e depiction of the Realms. On things like spells and magic items, the wiki uses it as a subtle indicator of 3e rules, like the Spellplague for 4e and Second Sundering for 5e.

wooden cipher
#

The 4e map (5e never updated) shows the location Castle Al'Handar yet, sources use the name Castle Al'hannar. Why?

sharp owl
#

A typo

#

typed a d instead of an n

#

In fact, there is no Al'hannar, it's Al'hanar, one n

#

So looks to be an accidentally inserted character

#

Yeah, a quick confirmation and all attempts to search for Al'hannar or Al'handar redirect to Al'hanar

#

So simple typo

wooden cipher
#

The map entry is capitalized as well, this appears intentional.

sharp owl
#

You can still make typos in caps, like I said, there's 0 reference to Al'hannar (two Ns) or Al'handar (additional D) that I can find

astral turret
#

If Shar wanted another go of becoming the new deity of magic, how could she do it?

sharp owl
#

This channel is more for what has happened, rather than what could happen

astral turret
#

ok fair enough

#

In that case, how exactly did Lord Shadow die? Like was he completely disintegrated or is his body still intact?

sharp owl
#

Lord Shadow doesn't ring a bell, and my google fu fails me, who are they?

astral turret
#

just says he was killed by Elminster. No specifics

sharp owl
snow laurel
#

What food is particularly emblematic of Sigil? By analogy to NYC, what food would a character from Sigil treat like Pizza; namely, that it sucks/doesn't exist anywhere outside of new york?

vital heron
#

The recent sigil book made reference to Razorvine Wrapes which are served in the one vegetarian spot in the Grease Pit - a street food market in Sigil

snow laurel
#

legit that just sounds like dolmathes

#

thanks, that'll work perfect

vital heron
#

There's also a Mushroom Meld, a "melt" (I guess like a toasted sandwich) that enables telepathic communication

snow laurel
#

nah the razorvine makes much more sense since it's basically one of the few plants that grow in sigil, I imagine the mushrooms are probably found elsewhere

sharp owl
jagged apex
#

honestly given the nature of sigil, would likely be weird if it did

iron saffron
#

Remember that everything has to be shipped into Sigil.

jagged apex
#

true

muted kettle
#

Whats the lore behind someone controlling the power of soulknife rogue subclass ?

sharp owl
#

There isn't any

#

The soulknife isn't specific to any setting (it was released in a setting agnostic book) and as such there's no lore associated with it

#

There's some flavour text, but no lore

muted kettle
sharp owl
#

subclass names aren't diegetic

#

soulknife is what we, the people who play the game, call the bundle of mechanics

#

That doesn't mean a roguish individual who exhibits these skills in say the Sword Coast would be called a soulknife

unkempt merlin
#

Historically it's been linked to psionics

#

The lore of which can change depending on setting

vital heron
#

The lore is essentially confined to what it says in the class description:

  • it's part of psionics
  • Often found amongst other rogueish people
  • There's elven soulknives that serve to protect forests
  • Githzerai train soulknifes for stealth against the Githyanki

But like Davyd says, that doesn't necessarily mean that someone's business card says "soulknife" any more than a Totem Barbarian thinks of themselves as a "Totem Barbarian", rather than a warrior or mecernary.

vital heron
buoyant monolith
#

What is the most prominant thieves guild in Neverwinter? I want to know for my human rogue character’s backstory

jagged apex
wooden cipher
#

The Era of Upheaval on the lore source FRCS Wiki opens with "The Era of Upheaval was the time period between Time of Troubles of 1358 DR and the Second Sundering of the decade of the 1480s DR.[1][2] " Then it says that Ao declared the Era of Upheaval ended with the end of the 2nd Sundering in 1489. I'm saying that contrary to the opening sentence here, the Era of Upheaval included all of these events from the Time of Trouble through to the end of the Second Sundering. What does D&D say? That entire first sentence needs work at https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Era_of_Upheaval

modest badger
#

Remember that this is not the place to discuss fixes to the wiki, and that is better done through the wiki's talk pages.

iron saffron
#

We talk about the official D&D lore here, not the wikis

wooden cipher
#

That hides the lore. This is open to D&D players to realize the lore is at issue.

iron saffron
#

Doesn't matter...

modest badger
#

This server is not actually affiliated with that wiki. The wiki is a long running fan wiki.

iron saffron
#

Chat with the wiki group.

wooden cipher
#

You quote FR wiki in most discussions

iron saffron
#

So?

wooden cipher
#

Then FR wiki is open to be discussed.

modest badger
#

Yes, because it's a useful fan source. Not that the server controls the wiki

iron saffron
#

It's convenient because the FR wiki cites the sources the readers to read further into detail.

wooden cipher
#

You can't say I can do it, but you can't.

modest badger
#

If you have an issue with the wiki's wording or information, you need to go to it's talk pages.

#

We can't do anything.

unkempt merlin
#

The wiki gets quoted here because the FR is a dnd setting with lore which people discuss... and is also a popular one

wooden cipher
#

Yes so let us discuss the wiki and not - "Go away if you aren't us"

modest badger
#

You also know you can edit the wiki?

#

You do not need to report to us. In fact reporting to us means nothing.

wooden cipher
#

No, public discussion right here about the Lore accessible to players of D&D. This lore is used here, let the players know here.

unkempt merlin
modest badger
#

This isn't about lore accessible to players. This is specifically about the wiki- in which case you can either edit it or suggest an edit on the talk page.

#

What do you want to achieve here ?

wooden cipher
#

Players who come to this discord board of dnd-lore should know that dnd lore used by most here has issues, let us discuss these issues. Not you use it, anyone else should go hide in private and talk to the Wiki editors not D&D players on the D&D board.

modest badger
#

We are all aware wikis can have errors.

unkempt merlin
#

I'm sorry, your phrasing is making your intent difficult to understand

#

Yes the wiki has errors. But what is your intent?

wooden cipher
#

I pointed it out and You long timers here immediately jumped on the person and ignored the lore at question.

iron saffron
#

I still don't see how that is relevant to this channel.

jagged apex
#

not everything lore adjacent is ment for this channel, read the description, that gives a guideline of the sort of things ment for this channel

unkempt merlin
modest badger
#

What is the actual lore you wish to discuss, not related to the wiki?

iron saffron
#

Taps channel's sign:

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

wooden cipher
wooden cipher
modest badger
jagged apex
#

when someone asks what or is otherwise confused, that usually means you did not make it clear originally, so reffering to said prior posts is not gunna clerify anything

modest badger
#

Reword your request, unrelated to the wiki.

wooden cipher
#

What says D&D? You'll find the question within the post.

unkempt merlin
#

"What says DnD" isn't a phrase that makes any sense

#

Nobody here "is" dnd

wooden cipher
#

About the issue - it certrainly does unless your comprehension of the subject at hand is zero.

modest badger
#

If I understand... You wish to know What the 'Era of Upheaval' covers time period wise?

unkempt merlin
wooden cipher
#

You guys are hilarious. The Era of Upheaval the lore is again all over the place on this, what is the lore D&D players should use. Is this not the Wotc official D&D discord?

jagged apex
#

that is not what dnd lore even is, so there is one problem

wooden cipher
#

The Era of Upheaval is not lore!

unkempt merlin
#

People are having difficulty in understanding what you are saying/trying to say because the way you are phrasing things is both non sequitur and not sensically phrased

#

It quite literally is lore

#

It's lore about a period of time in a specific dnd setting

jagged apex
#

the published lore is not what people should use, it is merely the published canon that can be used as the default if one wishes, nobody is forcing or saying you have to use it, outside of stuff like objective events you talk about or playing AL

wooden cipher
#

Then when one comes here asking questions about lore - your answer everytime should be - "It's up to you."

unkempt merlin
#

No

wooden cipher
#

Instead you all quote FR wiki.

jagged apex
#

and seems rather than reading the whole thing, you are only taking bits of what is being said and acting like that is what is being said, which is not the case especially in this case

unkempt merlin
#

And no, plenty of non FR wiki is quoted

modest badger
#

Era of Upheaval

1358 DR to Present
Scholars today mark the calamitous events of the Avatar Crisis in the Year of Shadows (1358 DR) as the start of the Era of Upheaval
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, 4e, p.43
Which is set in 1479.

wooden cipher
#

Until I point it out, then you all say - oh no we do't use that.

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

that is not what is going on, and i am almost certain you know it

unkempt merlin
#

(Sorry oldman didn't mean to ping that)

iron saffron
#

The Era of Upheaval marks the major cataclysms that affect Toril for around 120 years (each cataclysm, meta-game-wise, was a narrative reason for the changes in each of the new editions).

modest badger
#

The wiki did actually give the source for the information in that sentence you complained about. You can always look those sources up.

unkempt merlin
wooden cipher
jagged apex
#

that does not even make sense as a reply to what he said

unkempt merlin
#

A) it's generally considered rude to ping someone back into a conversation they said they were leaving and B) that once again still makes no sense

modest badger
wooden cipher
modest badger
#

So, seems like 1358-1489

jagged apex
#

about as normal as life in the forgotten realms can be, which is a separate can of worms i'd wager

iron saffron
#

Forgotten Realms Timeline
Netheril -3859 DR to -339 DR
Cormanthyr 650 DR
Fall of Myth Drannor 714 DR
1E 1356 to 1358 DR
2E 1367 to 1370 DR
3E 1372 to 1374 DR
4E 1479 to 1480 DR
5E 1490+

jagged apex
#

definitely not normal by earth's standards XD

iron saffron
#

1358 DR marked the end of 1E with the Time of Troubles. 1489 DR marked beginning of 5E.

wooden cipher
modest badger
#

Also, please remember we are fellow fans.
Not anyone of authourity. You can't really expect or demand we make lore make sense. We can just do our best to help explain things, and that means we need to understand the question.

We do often point to the wiki yes.
Which is were I got those sources.

iron saffron
#

Your original question was worded to be a complaint about the FR wiki rather than about the Era of Upheaval

wooden cipher
#

This should be discussed for this is the source use most often here.

modest badger
#

We often recommend actually looking at what is cited and looking into it further. The wiki often provides a useful resource of citations and sources. Occasionally things will be missed, or miss cited.

#

In this case two sources were given for the dates- Forgotten Realm Campaign Guide, and the 'What is the Sundering' video on youtube. So we know to look into those.

wooden cipher
#

This source contains a lot of misinformation/misdirection by quoting source material and the quote not being in the reference, or missing material entirely. And stating the exact opposite of what is in sources they didn't bother to check.

#

These need to be discussed when discussing lore, for players of D&D need to know.

modest badger
#

The wiki legally cannot fully quote.

jagged apex
modest badger
#

Again, if you have an issue with the wiki, beyond just saying 'Remember that wiki's can be mistaken' you need to either edit the wiki or suggest an edit on it's talk page.

#

What do you expect us to do or hope to achieve here?

wooden cipher
jagged apex
#

talk about it where it is not with in the bounds of what is ment to be talked about in the channel will likely only lead to more problems for you if you are the one talking about it

jagged apex
modest badger
#

It was not a go away. It was a solution to the issue we assumed you had- that the sentence needed rewording.

#

We cannot do that here.

jagged apex
#

nobody was telling you to go away, and if you keep being aggressive and assuming things about those who so much as say single word to you, you are certainly just gunna be getting more trouble for yourself than anything

#

especially since a lot of your retorts seem to be you interprating what is being said drastically different from what is actually being written or even intended

modest badger
#

One issue I'm also noticing is that when the lore contradicts- which it will, you often bring it here as if we can fix it.
We can't. Lore contridictions will occur. This game is 50 years old, multiple editions, multiple writers, sources, and so on. Retcons occur. Lore is dropped or forgotten about.

When this post about canon came out on WotC, some folk, myself included, worried this was saying that anything not 5e didn't count anymore. But rather it's explaining it's like Marvel or DC comic books. How many different Batman timelines and canons are there now? It's impossible to get a solid overall 'Batman lore'. You can follow the lore of specific canon lines, but that does not mean it will be canon unto anything else. What happens in BG3 is canon to BG3, but not neccessarily to the 5e TTRPG adventures. What happens in Novels might not be canon to the D&D movie, so on.

The wiki is it's own source. A useful fan source, collected with love, but you can see here how it defines canon and it's priorities in selecting which lore is 'canon' or not. Note this is not the same as WotC's attitude towards canon.

You as a DM/ player must make judgement calls for yourself as well. Do you want to use lore from 2e that is now 'outdated'? Do you want to use legacy 5e lore from Volo's or newer lore from Mordenkainen Presents? And when confused about what is the canon for 5e currently, or just wanting generic lore, please by all means ask. But best not to frame it as en error on the wiki, because that is nothing to do with this server or D&D as a whole. And if just a weird continuity within D&D (looking at you Eladrins), then yeah we can discuss different sources and editions. But there might not be any real 'Answer'.

jagged apex
#

the fact is that dnd's lore is not one singular continuity across editions, everyone has been very open about that and the team behind it even explained how they treat continuity way back in this article https://dnd.wizards.com/news/dnd-canon

#

so idk why they keep acting like it is suppose to be one singular continuity, nobody has been saying that is suppose to be the case

agile merlin
#

I mean, you look at the map of Flanaess at Library of Greyhawk, it feels like half of the towns marked on that don't even have their own pages on the wiki. I think dnd lore wasn't ever meant to be a rigid box everything needs to fit into, more so than a host of templates for DMs who don't feel up to homebrewing an entire world of their own

jagged apex
#

honestly, to my knowledge, dnd has never been ment to be a singular continuity

iron saffron
#

There have been contradictions of lore even within the same edition.

jagged apex
#

partly cuz homebrewing at least at some level has always been in dnd's dna, it just gets more orginized, comparatively, when don by the company that owns the liscence and puts out the books

#

at least that is my understanding, it dnd was consistent across everything, it wouldn't really be dnd

#

but i guess this is starting to get way from the topics intended for this channel

modest badger
#

There used to be a massive project actually trying to detail the entire map of Faerun. 'Forgotten Realms Atlas Project' using CC3+. I think some fans are keeping it going. It was weridly semi official near the beginning if I recall, but also now partially lost media.

wooden cipher
# modest badger One issue I'm also noticing is that when the lore contradicts- which it will, yo...

Therein lay the answer. That should be remembered by all who answer lore questions related to D&D. Views of continuity are unclear - there are things people have said about subjects related to lore but it has never been a canon. Some official source material may be tossed aside, for even published works have rewritten the specifics of lore.

I will point out that the "Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide" (2012 Wizards) description of Estagund is a ridiculous which did not take into account the effects of the Era of Upheaval-- her neighbors Var drowned, Luiren drowned, Veldorn grew in strength and most-certainly raided Estagund and all remaining lands of the Durpari; there was a great drought.

This book has Estagund being just fine and sending trade ships all over the place! Shoot the people of the Adama are now in alliance with a city in the Beastlands and oh yeah guess what D&D players - Estagund's major cities are now predominately kenku. Ridiculous!! So here is an example where discussion of the lore will be overlooked because I make fun of a book. The point is, there are things in D&D that don't fly if you choose, and Wotc doesn't have a canon of the Forgotten Realms; I suspect this to be a major reason for having avoided it since 2014 - it's a mess.

wooden cipher
modest badger
#

...That is Flanaess yes, Anna Meyer's excellent work.
(Also not official- excellent work, but also includes her own campaign's locations as well)

shy nexus
#

Chief Scribe of the Forgotten Realms Wiki here. First, once again, if anyone finds an error or other issue on the Forgotten Realms Wiki, and if it is an actual error or issue, do take it to the wiki and explain it clearly so we can address it. An article's Talk page (available from the dropdown menu next to the Edit button) is the best place to discuss these things, not a derailing an unrelated Discord channel with no wiki editors in it (I only lurk here occasionally to look out for issues like this). You can also use the wiki's Forum, a User Talk page, or a User Blog, or the wiki channels in the Greenwood's Grotto and Forgotten Realms discords (not related to this one) if you're a member of those - we're not short on ways to be contacted. Shouting into the void on Discord, Reddit, or Twitter as people do is not helpful. Please, not here.
Second, the Forgotten Realms Wiki was born in 3e and survived 4e and took on a mission of resolving the edition wars around that. Our approach is to accept all eras equally and treat it all as one continuity and one canon with discrepancies resolved in the footnotes in classic FR fashion. That may not exactly match the current WotC policy on canon, but we believe theirs supports ours - this is just our group's, our table's, canon (our table just has a few hundred thousand visitors a day 🤷‍♂️ ).

keen tapir
#

So what even is a Rakshasa and where do they come from? Are they just genie were-tigers or something?

modest badger
#

Rakshasa are fiends

Evil Spirits in Mortal Flesh. Rakshasas originated long ago in the Nine Hells, when powerful devils created a dark ritual to free their essence from their fiendish bodies in order to escape the Lower Planes.
-5e Monster Manual, p.257

keen tapir
#

Thanks, friend

unkempt merlin
#

In most settings, they are fiends who resemble humanoid tigers with backwards hands

keen tapir
#

Yeah the backwards hands were always weird to me. Is there an explanation for that or are they just goofy guys?

iron saffron
#

Rakshasa are based on Hindu Indian myths (D&D borrows heavily from real world myths and folklore from around the world).

modest badger
#

Much of the Rakshasa as depicted in D&D is inspired by a single episode of Kolchack, the Night Stalker

I was a fan of Kolchack, the Night Stalker, when it first aired, and sure enough they had a rakshasa as a monstrous evil on that show. I liked the idea of the demon being destroyed by a blessed wooden crossbow bolt, that being akin to the stake through a vampire's heart, so I went with that in the MM.
Enworld, Q&A with Gary Gygax
And are inspired from Hindu Myth.

In the episode the Rakshasa is more like a ..yeti?

#

But they seem inspired by that episode + the very specific legends available to Gygax in 1975

eager bay
keen tapir
#

Interesting. Yeah, it’s probably an attribute that the Night Stalker episode mentioned above had that he merged with the existing creature from myth

eager bay
#

Nah, first edition Rakshasas didn't have backward hands either. The idea seems to come from dragon magazine #84

modest badger
#

Or possibly from what ever Trampier's inspiration for the 1e MM. Alas, Trampier does not have as much Q&A anecdotes as he disappeared from the D&D sphere early on, only reappearing on his death.

#

Yeah, trampier's Rakshasa are tiger headed, but hands are normal

iron saffron
#

A lot of D&D monsters are not even close to 1:1 with their folklore/myth version. The D&D gorgon was based on an illustration of a folklore book rather than the name of Greek monster that Medusa belonged to.

keen tapir
modest badger
#

The Backward hand version at least has cited it's sources:

The rakshasa pictured above (he's the fierce-looking one), drawn by Jim Holloway): resembles the creature described in Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend. This version of the rakshasa has a big belly, fingers that curve away from the palms of its hands, and claws that are said to be poisonous. And, obviously, this is a rakshasa who isn't bothering to use his illusion powers right now, preferring to let the poor victim see what he's really up against.
Dragon Magazine #84, April 1984, p.30

(The depiction is of a monster looking something like an orangutang, with short legs, backwards hands and long canines)

keen tapir
#

Thanks for the help fellow investigators. Onto the next case

shy nexus
#

The rakshasa's reversed hands always remind me of various mythological monsters with backwards feet, so a person who thinks they're running from the monster finds they're running into it instead. I wonder if that was the inspiration, or a source of confusion.

modest badger
#

The Rakshasas appear in the shape of various animals (dog, vulture, owl) and also have the power to assume human form, especially that of a deformed or monstrous human shapre or of an old woman. They can also appear as beautiful men or women; they are yellow, green or blue but usually their eyes are mere vertical slits. Their hair is matted, their bellies large. They have five feet, their fingers are set on backwards. They eat human flesh and corpses, also food on which someone has sneezed or trodden, or which has been desecrated by insects. They live in trees; their fingernails are poisonous; and their touch can produce death.
Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend, 1972, p 923

#

So we have Gygax being inspired by Kolchak, Trampier going with the tiger form, and Jim Holloway and Scot Bennie in DragMag reinterpretting this 1972 text.

#

And that text's source for Indian mythology was Marian W. Smith who did 'field work in India 1948-49' and 'among Sikhs in New York' and wrote 'Articles and reviews of subjects relating to India' and that's as deep dive as I'm gonna go on that origin dndLol

eager bay
shy nexus
eager bay
#

Yeah, hindu mythology Rakshasas are not dirty or primal and don't leave on trees. They're more like... Violent demon nobility.

#

So D&D used a bunch of poorly researched sources that misrepresented a non-western culture and then proceeded to further misrepresent. Who could have seen that coming?

agile merlin
#

D&D rakshashas at least seem to live up to the noble bit, going off of the images they're given

eager bay
#

Indeed!

#

Though one has to say that the Indian epics contain rakshasa characters on both sides of the wars, some fighting alongside the heroes

agile merlin
#

Also possible I believe?
Someone asked about a good-aligned rakshasha here

eager bay
#

But then again, if you want to accurately portray real world mythologies, you simply can't have ontologically evil or ontologically good creatures

#

And the basic conception of D&D requires those

magic jackal
#

requires those

eager bay
#

Untrue. The Forgotten Realms are a somewhat late addition to D&D, and the need of essentially evil creatures precedes the Forgotten Realms by a long time.

shy nexus
#

Stories of monsters evolve or are merged or misremembered by different communities at different times. You look up any monster tale, you get different versions as specific as one village says this, another says something very different. One of these gets written down, and gets adapted further. The D&D monster is just one more iteration in the storytelling process.

magic jackal
#

Not every official setting in the modern day engages with ontological, cosmologically ordained morality.

eager bay
#

You would be right when talking about most other mythological creatures, BadCatMan, but the Rakshasa are mostly famous for the Mahabarata and Ramayana, two of the most popular and read works of literature in history

magic jackal
#

Hence it's bad faith to claim that the basic conception of D&D requires such. Required in its original conception maybe, past tense.

eager bay
#

Yes, this is what I meant. Basic, as in "the base", as in "the original"

#

And I would not put it in the past tense just yet. We have made progress getting rid of essentialism and ontological evil as a concept really only in the past few years, but we are building on incredibly shaky ground.

shy nexus
#

The Forgotten Realms predate D&D by several years, a young Ed Greenwood was making up his own stories in the 1960s. He later adapted it to D&D for his home campaign, and eventually Dragon articles and the published setting. And more core D&D lore has been added since then. So most of the time when people say FR says this or requires that, it's actually just core D&D that has nothing to do with the Realms.

eager bay
#

And, no, I do not think the Forgotten Realms is the setting most guilty of it. Most conflicts in the Forgotten Realms are conflicts of people, not conflicts of evil monsters against heroes.

#

Ed Greenwood rarely frames his bad guys as "others", their evilness is human, not the product of an ontological evil

#

Or, more or less what BadCatMan said, yes indeed.

jagged lion
#

Heya guys, I got a Christmas elf character. I need help with lore building around them.

jagged apex
#

not the place for it

#

as to my knowledge "christmas elves" do not exist in dnd, which is kind of funny cuz santa clause is a character in published dnd lore

agile merlin
#

Wait for real

jagged apex
#

yes

#

back in like 3.5e to my knowledge at least officially

#

if memory serves he was a human druid, cleric, rogue multiclass

agile merlin
#

That's how he's always so quiet, he wildshapes into a mouse

jagged apex
#

is definitely a possibility with the stuff they gave him when they last made use of him

vague ember
obtuse bloom
#

ethereal plane is like a reflaction of a corresponding plane to it but does stuff one the material plane have an effect on the ethereal plane ? example: the ground splits due to... idk a disintigrate spell, is the ground effected on the ethereal plane ? i know that a creature on the ethereal plane cant effect creatures from the material plane and vice versa but what about obejcts

#

also do objects such as houses exist in the etheral plane ?

iron saffron
#

The Ethereal Plane isn't an echo of the Material Plane like the Feywild or Shadowfell are.

#

The Ethereal Plane is a transitionary plane that connects the Material Plane to the Inner Planes (the elemental planes, the energy planes (positive and negative), the Feywild, and Shadowfell).

obtuse bloom
#

oh okay so its totally different okay

iron saffron
#

When a Material Plane creature becomes ethereal they're "out of phase" and thus incorporeal (see ghosts).

obtuse bloom
#

how would that work tho if you can percive creatures from the material plane while on the ethereal ?

#

im having trouble imagining it and how it looks

#

is it just nothingness in all directions ? if thats the case whats up with the creatures liveing there ?

#

or rather native to the ethereal plane

iron saffron
sharp owl
#

@obtuse bloom Have you seen the Lord of the Rings?

iron saffron
#

Yeah, when Frodo puts on the One Ring...

sharp owl
#

Same brain, exactly where I was going

obtuse bloom
#

ohh okay okay so the ethereal is not a reflection of the material but a creature using blink/etherealness is still tied to the material plane and percives it as normal okay

sharp owl
#

It's a transitive plane, a plane between planes

#

Specifically a boundary between the material planes and the inner planes

#

It also has 'depth'; there's the border ethereal which is "nearest" the material plane, and the deep ethereal which is well beyond the reach of any plane and often a place where people become lost

#

Now, when I talk about 'near' and 'far', this isn't literal distance

iron saffron
#

Whereas the Astral Plane/Sea is a transitive plane between the Material Plane and the Outer Planes. Think Dr. Strange's astral projection where his "soul" leaves his body.

obtuse bloom
#

what about creatures native to the ethereal tho, like if someone uses blink and teleports near such a creature can it percive and attack as normal the pc ?

sharp owl
#

If you want to use the great wheel cosmology, you can imagine the material plane at the middle, with a ring of the inner planes around it, and a ring of the out planes around that

#

the ethereal plane lays between the material center and the inner first ring

obtuse bloom
sharp owl
#

I don't believe there are any creatures native to the ethereal plane

obtuse bloom
#

oh okay

#

in 3e there was an ethereal ooze

#

but idk if the lore of 3e is still the lore of 5e

jagged apex
#

unless more recent lore contradicts it, past lore is still viable, at least until new information on the subject is given

#

and given the ethereal ooze has not appeared in published materials to my knowledge, odds are a good chunk of their lore would still be viable, just would depend how different the ethereal works between editions if there are any differences

jagged apex
sharp owl
#

I wasn't talking about creatures that cross between, just native

#

as far as I was aware, neither of those were native

jagged apex
#

odd, far as i was aware one of them at least if not both were native, so i guess at best is murky if there are native creatures, hard to say cuz the ethereal flinchers don't seem to be documented on the wiki and the only lore source i know for them is a lore video by AJ pickett

sharp owl
#

I'm not saying they're not, I'm saying as far as I'm aware

jagged apex
#

same

#

just for me i was under the opposite idea, that they were native, at least far as i knew

iron saffron
#

The Ethereal Flinchers are from 3.5E. I don't see any mention that they're native to the Ethereal Plane.

jagged apex
#

seems then is at best unclear if any creatures are native to the ethereal, could be a detail they intentionally left unanswered as i could see it going either way in the case of the ethereal flinchers and phase spiders

stiff roost
#

Why are genies kept in bottles and why can't they escape?

jagged apex
#

is really in dnd at least just one example of using magic or other such means to bind a genie into service

stiff roost
#

I see. So it's about gaining a servant and not drawing power from the bottle.

summer latch
#

Random question, but what is the difference between an aspect, an avatar, and a champion of a being like a god or devil?

unkempt merlin
#

avatar and aspect are generally interchangeable terms. A champion is generally well. A champion. A chosen. etc. A different individual chosen by that entity to represent them in some capacity

iron saffron
#

Champions and chosen are typically more of exarchs -- powerful mortal servants of deities with a gift of divinity (in 3.5E they would be quasi-deities with divine power of 0).

#

Aspects and avatars are a portion of a deity or archfiend used to sent to the Material Plane as representative of the deity or archfiend. They're much weaker in than the deity's true form.

summer latch
#

So if it's a mortal, it would a chosen or champion, whereas an avatar or aspect would be sort of a divine incarnation

iron saffron
#

3.5E had archdevils and demon lords have aspects (typically around the CR 12 to 20 power range).

unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

Mystra has a lot of Chosen, such as Elminster, Alustriel Silverhand, Laeral Silverhand, Dove Falconhand, The Simbul, and Storm Silverhand.

jagged apex
#

even those two are very different things

#

similar, but also very different

iron saffron
#

1E to 3E used avatars for deities.
3E introduced aspects for archdevils and demon lords.
4E used exarchs.
5E uses aspects for deities.

jagged apex
#

and if not mistaken, either way an avatar or an aspect, definitely the case with an avatar, they only have a fraction of their full power at their disposal

#

most gods, in their entirety are so powerful in comparison to mortals or creatures you can actually stand a chance against in a fight, there is no point trying to stat it out or use mere mechanics

iron saffron
#

In 3E Deities & Demigods, a deity's avatar had half the divine rank of deity. So a deity with a divine rank of 14, their avatar has a divine rank of 7 (thus less powerful with divine powers).

jagged apex
#

from what i recall in the lore if a full deity were to even set foot on the prime material plane in their full totality, at least if a greater deity or higher, it would be so much power the prime material plane would shatter like glass

#

which is likely why they have the need of such things like avatars, should they feel they must get directly involved, so they don't accidently just destroy things, only intentionally

iron saffron
#

A demi-god can have zero or 1 avatar while a greater god could have 20 avatars at a time.

wooden cipher
#

5e still allows for avatars of deities, doesn't it? Folowing the remaking of the Tablets of Fate and the portfolios of the gods, avatr appearance is possible?

jagged apex
#

yeah, things like the number avatar, how great their divine senses reach, ect... all depends on their divine status as i recall

jagged apex
iron saffron
unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

I know but they specifically use the term "aspect" in 5E.

jagged apex
#

we have aspects of bahamut and tiamat in fizban's. aruil uses an avatar for her 5e appearance, all be it very weakened do to the events of that adventure, so will not spoil, and a Corrupted Avatar of Lurue appears in candlekeep mysteries in one of it's adventures

unkempt merlin
iron saffron
#

I'm not denying that.

wooden cipher
#

I tend to see a physical manifistation of a deity on Faerun as being avatar and an aspect being more of a conceptual representation of a deity.

unkempt merlin
unkempt merlin
jagged apex
unkempt merlin
#

The answer doesn't change it being an avatar at all

#

(Even ignoring how the specifics of the statblock prove the answer wrong anyway...)

#

Or rather: the conclusion people come to from the answer is proven wrong

wooden cipher
#

Lucha is an aspect of the Adama, but her avatar is a manifestation of Lucha.

arctic solstice
#

I'm not sure why Vrocks are described as vulture like when they turned from bird monsters, to anthropomorphic vultures, to reptilian looking monsters.

storm dagger
#

They have always looked like vultures

#

I don't see any reptilan parts.

#

Aspect and Avatar are pretty much the same thing in 5e

unkempt merlin
mental shoal
#

how rare are spellcasters? seems insanely advantageous to know at least a bit of magic in the dnd universe even in day to day life but idk if theres any official lore on this

jagged apex
#

depends on the world

#

for example in dnd, good ol' earth is a massive dead magic zone, so other than in the dark ages, ain't gunna find a spellcaster there

unkempt merlin
#

a generally safe bet across settings is "a person has probably met at least 1. More if they live in population centers"

jagged apex
#

as to the level of power or skill of said caster, it can vary wildly

agile merlin
#

They've definitely at least met a divine caster if the world is decently magical. Your local pastor can cure small injuries

storm dagger
#

Nah local priests tend to have no or minor magic at best.

#

Gennerally capable ones are only in cities.

#

With a few exceptions.

next sage
# agile merlin They've definitely at least met a divine caster if the world is decently magical...

clerics (and divine casters in general) are inherently uncommon in D&D. Lore-wise, they are very dilute versions of a god's chosen, granted the ability to channel a small piece of a god's power.
your average priest worships the god and does the general temple stuff, and has a cantrip or two if they're really experienced.
But either way, your average guy will have seen a spell being cast at some point in their lives. if they haven't, they have seen or used a magic item, or heard about or felt the effects of a spell.

jagged apex
#

either way it still varies apon settings as in some settings like the forgotten realms the rules of magic and thus the availability of it to mortals has changed a couple times

#

before karsus' folly, from what i am aware everyone could learn and use cantrips pretty easily

jagged apex
storm dagger
#

There is someplace like Eberron where low level magic is super common and found everwhere

jagged apex
#

unless you are interacting with an ogre, a simple cantrip and they will more or less think you are a god of some kind

storm dagger
#

But at the same time High level magic is even rarer and very few have acess to that.

jagged apex
#

either way, places like earth are odd balls because of the lack of magic as earth in dnd's multiverse is a massive dead magic zone, at least has been for a long time

#

is it useful? yes. but is not anything too game changing unless you happen to have more powerful magic ie leveled spells, especially those at or above 3rd level, that is the kind of stuff where the advantages really get insane

#

to my knowledge the forgotten realms is at least in it's current state ment to be your average dnd world in terms of magic and it's availability, so maybe reading up on magic via the forgotten realms wiki page, and if need of more details, the cited sources, would be helpful https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Magic

next sage
# storm dagger But at the same time High level magic is even rarer and very few have acess to t...

assuming forgotten realms (extrapolating numbers from context and general knowledge):
knowing a cantrip? one in like 100 people. you would still need considerable effort to learn them, but theyre easy enough for some guy with a lot of free time to learn.
1st or 2nd lvl spells? one in like 2-5 thousand. to learn these is to pretty much declare it as your job. with the required time and effort to learn these, they're going to be a major part of your life now.
3rd-5th? good luck finding someone who can cast these, bud. if you want to learn these, better start building your wizard's tower, because you're going to be there a while.
6th though 8th? a literal years long quest to find someone like this. your average joe who is really, really set on learning stuff like this is going to be in their mid to late 40s, assuming they started as a young teenager and kept learning constantly.
9th? its 1 guy and his name is mordenkainen*
*a bit of an exaggeration, but pretty much

eager bay
#

To add some nuance to the "1 in 100" people thing: That entirely depends on the group. All high elves are taught cantrips as part of their basic education. If your focus group is elves, planetouched or gnomes, knowing spells is far more common.
Moreover, Mordenkainen is not a Forgotten Realms character but a Greyhawk one. There are actually a lot of characters in the FR settings who have access to 9th level spells.

#

But it's difficult to have actual data. It has varied immensely from edition to edition, from writer to writer, and the novels set in the Forgotten Realms tend to focus on characters who are very much exceptional.

next sage
eager bay
#

Which can cast 9th level spells, yes. But is otherwise rather unimpressive

agile merlin
#

I think Oerth is also a little more suspicious of magic-users comparatively?

modest badger
#

Not that I've noticed in it's modules or lore. There's some groups, like the Snow, Frost, Ice barbarians that are anti magic, but it's not a general attitude. Even smalller villagers like Hommlett had a 'village wizard' in the form of Burne.

storm dagger
#

In Forgotten Realms the Uthgardt Tribes greatly disliked Arcane Magic

#

This is probably an effect of them being descended from Netheril and the Netheresse empire collapsed because of arcane magic

wooden cipher
#

One of the coolest archmages is Mycontil from Halruaa - No longer alive, but worthy of rememberance! What a great story defending Halruaa and taking the fight to the Dambrathis - with 500 mages he defeated 40,000 barbarians.

wooden cipher
#

Ah, but these had conquered many nations across the Shining Lands prior to occupying a large part of Halruaa. These weren't just barbarians that wear fur boots and run with a great axe, these were expert horseman and they employed naval tactics. Not easy targets. Mycontil gave his life during this battle but defeated Reinhar I.

drifting thunder
#

hello new to dnd and trying to write lore for my characters father, is there any human clan/group/ empire/knight family who was declared as the strongest at one point, or such with a lot of mystery behind them (so i could create my own lore for them if unknown)

feral lintel
#

Doesnt seem to much like a lore question. But what Dnd setting?

drifting thunder
#

faerun, and i thought it would be appropriate in this chat because im trying to find out lore of such mentioned groups to help write character backstory?

feral lintel
drifting thunder
#

yeah didn't think so since many people thjere are talking about builds or stats but ill post there as well i guess

iron saffron
#

This channels is to discuss about official D&D campaign setting lore.

faint lion
#

They are asking about official setting lore.

#

I don't know anything off the top of my head that fit what you're looking for. There's a wiki you can google to read a lot of Forgotten Realms lore. If someone here with more knowledge can't help, you can try there. Also, it's something to talk to your DM about. If you can't find anything official, you could work with your DM to create it for your campaign.

iron saffron
#

Faerun is still rather vague since it's a continent.

faint lion
#

Since Faerun is an official D&D setting, I don't think any level of specificity is going to make it qualify more as lore.

iron saffron
drifting thunder
#

not really

faint lion
#

It's not. They are asking specifically about setting lore.

drifting thunder
#

im simply asking if anywhere in faerun there is a prominent human dominated group/empire/ group etc

iron saffron
drifting thunder
#

okay well pointing back to my original question, which was any in particular which had great power in comparison or are they all about the same

iron saffron
#

There are no empires currently in Faerun.

gilded lava
#

Is it important that they are the strongest? or that they're a strong group, with strong members

eager bay
#

Non-human races in the Forgotten Realm setting don't generally make nation-states as we understand them.

gilded lava
#

because Order of the Gauntlet might be a good lore-filled one, a group of morally upstanding warriors who generally did good things

eager bay
#

There's the orcish many-arrow kingdom but otherwise...Dwarves have strongholds, which work as city-states, gnomes and halflings live in small communities, elves have their own things.

iron saffron
#

Order of the Gauntlet is a knightly order of Tyr.

gilded lava
#

i feel like you're just answering questions no one is asking

drifting thunder
#

ye i only started making my first character a while ago so i dont know much which i why my questions might seem vauge or that they dont make sense sorry
but yes a group of humans who were strong or with a lot of history behind then and preferably swordsman/warriors not mages

eager bay
#

Well, not exactly. The Order of the Gauntlet is not a religious order, though they are generally religious people. Tyr, Helm, Torm and Hoar are the four most popular gods among the order, but the order is not...Under their order.

#

Well, they kind of are a religious order, but they have their own system that is separate from the clergies of those gods.

iron saffron
#

The Sword Coast in the north-west region of Faerun with large city-states such as Neverwinter, Waterdeep, and Baldur's Gate. These are great "starter" region since the cities are big metropolitans with various people from around Toril (and beyond).

eager bay
crude rampart
drifting thunder
#

is there maybe a link to the these orders / groups to view them all would be super helpful

gilded lava
drifting thunder
#

thanks all dndCheers

pure knoll
#

What exactly is ki?

iron saffron
#

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ki

Ki (pronounced: /ki/ kee[1]), also called inner power or inner energy, was a mystical energy of the body that could be used to fuel various powers by its practitioners.

terse plank
#

Guys, i need to ask you a thing.

I was wondering if adventures written in the magazine "Dungeon: Adventures for TSR Role-Playing Games" are official in the Forgotten Realms lore or not.

In number 48 there's the adventure "To Bite the Moon", which talks about gnoll goddess Refnara, and she is also mentioned in some videos on youtube about gnolls lore, and in some wikis.
Is she canon in Forgotten Realms?

sharp owl
#

Canon and official lore aren't one and the same

#

if it was published in an official TSR or WotC product and hasn't been directly contradicted or otherwise retconned by a later publication, it's official lore

#

as for "canon", each edition is it's own canon (as is each form of media; novels, comics, video games, etc)

#

I can find next to no mentions of Refnara, even in the FR wiki which is an exceptionally well maintained source of lore

dawn elbow
#

Are modern gnolls able of worship?

#

They seem pretty mindless as of bg3

#

They kinda are just a self propagating curse

jagged apex
# dawn elbow Are modern gnolls able of worship?

any remotely intelligent being can worship, bg3 is but one continuity, in published materials, they have their own god, though most have long since in the forgotten realms at least to the demon lord Yeenoghu

#

is not their mindless, just their way of thinking is a lot different, they are litterally, depending on the lore you go by, half demon and half hyena

#

to my knowledge gnolls have always been capable of worship is not a mordern or non modern thing

restive summit
#

Which would be more powerful, one of the Books of Keeping or the true name of the General of Gehenna?

lost junco
#

i mean the Books of Keeping have the true names of the General right?

#

maybe not i forgot

#

wait nevermind, they don't have his name

#

i think the name of the General of Gehenna would be greater to have in my opinion

#

like he could be used to control other Yugoloths I'd imagine, I mean he is a General

#

Also i have a question my my own at the moment, so I'm looking at the Poster Map of Sigil, and I don't know which way to read it. Like from what I heard on Youtube, Sigil is a built inside of a big hollowed out ring in the sky. I have seen these "+" and "o" symbols on the poster map so I'm wondering is they are supposed to show me which directions things are in, I know distance can be meaningless on the Outer Planes but from what I know you still need to go in the same direction, so that's why I'm wondering.

So hypothetically, let's say I'm in Sigil and want to get from the Great Bazaar after some shopping, to the Prison to visit my locked up evil twin, which way would I go to get there? Would I go left or right or up or down?

sharp owl
#

Assuming you're referring to the poster map from Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse, it's a ring with everything on the inside

#

So you would take the poster map as it's printed and cut it in two across the middle

lost junco
#

yes i am referring to that poster map

sharp owl
#

You'd then join the right side of the top half (where the + is) to the left side of the bottom half (to the matching +) and then, ensuring the printed side is on the inside, the right side of the bottom half (where the O is) to the left side of the top half (to the other O)

#

That make sense?

lost junco
#

ya mostly

#

so basically im using the digital map so would i just go from the o to the other o?

sharp owl
#

Yeah

#

It loops

lost junco
#

oh i see

#

thanks for helping me Davyd

sharp owl
#

If you were to stand with the High Courts behind you and the Prison in front of you and start flying in as straight a line as possible, you'd pass over the Infinite Well, the Great Foundry, the Shattered Temple and the Ditch and Gatehouse Night Market, before reaching the Smoldering Corpse Bar. If you kept going you'd fly by Parakk Pest, Hall of Records, Hall of Information, The Hall of Speaks, the Great Bazaar, and end up back at the High Courts, approaching from the opposite side that you left

lost junco
#

ohh i see

#

now it makes a lot more sense

#

so ya it basically just loops around

iron saffron
#

Picture Sigil as in the inside of a tire.

jagged apex
#

i believe the shape properly is known as a torus

copper flax
#

Would I come here for questions about the fayewild?

#

I know the fayewild is very dm dependent but I was trying to find monsters home to the fayewild and couldn’t find much? Are like most animals/beasts in the material plane also found in the fayewild? Like an owl bear and such

lusty ravine
#

Feywild is generally going to be well, fey

#

So fairies, maybe eladrin, creatures with the fey type, etc

copper flax
#

Yes I know that but those are races? Like those are people. I’m wondering like beasts,animals monsters etc

lusty ravine
#

I don't recall any special plant or beast statblocks though. It's more just scenery descriptions

#

Fey statblocks are often the monsters you fight in the feywild

copper flax
#

Yeah ik but there’s no like large monsters

#

Like no owlbear, wolfs (could say blink dogs tho) or like monsters rather then just mischievous people

jagged apex
#

depends on what edition you are talking about if owlbears dwell there or not

copper flax
#

Okay I’ll just use owlbear

jagged apex
#

not to mention the mighty jabberwock

copper flax
#

Yeha but my party is three lvl 7

iron saffron
lusty ravine
#

Blink dogs are fey, so they probably would be around

jagged apex
#

but they ain't likely to attack adventurers without reason

iron saffron
#

They Feywild is an echo of the Material Plane. You can have fey version of Beasts found in the Material Plane.

copper flax
#

Okay I figured that so basically there’s beasts there but they have a twist of sorts usually?

jagged apex
#

fey are rooted in 3 main things nature, magic, and stories

jagged apex
copper flax
#

Thankyou I’ll look into this stuff thank ya

fathom wagon
#

Blink dogs off the top of my head

feral lintel
verbal bone
#

Question about the shadow-cursed lands in Baldur’s Gate 3. I’m running Candlekeep Mysteries which also takes place in 1492 DR. Though i’m setting it early in that year to not interact with the world-impacting events of the game.

But those shadow-cursed lands. Are they referenced outside of the video game? Where are they, what’s the extent of them and how long have they been there?

magic jackal
#

They are only referenced in the video game, because they're cursed on account of specific events that occured a century ago as setup to the video-game's main story.

jagged apex
jagged apex
verbal bone
#

Right, but is the shadow cursed lands inside or outside that split?

jagged apex
#

whether or not you want them to exist in the same continuity is up to you as a dm and more a thing for #dm-world-building

jagged apex
verbal bone
#

I’m not asking about whether i will or won’t use it.

I am asking have they been included in non-videogame published Wizards Hard bound lore?

jagged apex
#

check the sources of the wiki page

#

seems like the bulk is bg3, but there is potentially 2 other sources even if they don't contribute much

#

plus am assuming by hard bound lore, you mean the published continuity

#

which is the closest thing to a canon sources of events and their outcomes, though most of that we ain't gunna know till later in 5e once more events are referenced

#

as things are usually left ambiguous to the "canon outcome" unless they have to refference those past events for any story being told

verbal bone
#

Got it. Thanks. Yeah i think so far it’s only mentioned in the videogame then.

Yeah since it had been aound 100 years according to the videogame, i didn’t know if this was a long-established area in game lore or not. Like the Underdark or Baldur’s Gate or other locales in the game that DO show up in previous material.

jagged apex
#

only really appears in the video game, as the sources have refferences to things that are not games

#

but those are from the tsr days so their a lot more removed from the more recent events like you see in say bg3, partly just cuz of the time that has gone by

#

the majority of stuff that appears in bg3 are stuff existing in the lore or make use of versions of existing things

#

like the dark urge apparently appeared in an adventure called something along the lines of "murder in baldur's gate"

#

i forget if it was AL or not

verbal bone
#

Yeah but isn’t the plot of Descent into Avernus dovetailing into BG3 with the certain character and stuff?

So if DiA which i hadn’t read referenced the Shadow Cursed Lands, that would have additional information.

jagged apex
#

as i recall, dia was basically ment as an adventure that could lead into bg3

feral lintel
#

Its also spoilers

verbal bone
#

Written released Wizards stuff got really cheek to jowl-close with BG3 is what i meant. So just curious what was from general lore wrt this aspect of the landscape.

jagged apex
#

what do you expect? larian and wizards of the coast worked together on bg3 as the overlap and such were intentional

#

but it is by being a different medium than the typical adventures and lore in books, is automatically part of a separate continuity where differences can exist even if not ment to contradict

verbal bone
#

Im saying that mine wasn’t a strange question as to if the shadow cursed lands had appeared elsewhere

jagged apex
#

which makes sense as it is only something that exists in bg3 do to past events in that game's plot/history, as it seems it has not appeared prior, but some things within it such as moonrise towers, have

thorny phoenix
#

As far as I remember there is a specific area within the Shadow-Cursed Lands which is called the Fields of the Dead. This suggests the in-game Shadow-Cursed Lands could be an actual counterpart of the Fields of the Dead in FR lore. The locations of the places also correspond to each other.

storm dagger
#

Zariel had a completely different depiction in Tome of Foes the first book to give her stated

mellow moth
#

if some mighty wizards make towers and just lock themselves in there with several years worth of rare books

#

how do they stay sane

#

do they just spy on the populace with all seeing orbs

iron saffron
#

Which setting are you asking about?

#

Taps on channel's sign:

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

mellow moth
#

forgotten realms

iron saffron
#

This channel doesn't really deal with "what if" scenarios.

#

There's nothing that mandates that wizard lock themselves into their towers (assuming they have towers). Not all of them are bookworms.

storm dagger
#

There are plenty of Wizard Towers in the D&D settings

#

But locking themselves in is generally not something the Wizards do, leaving is frequent.

near musk
#

i was wondering are character like misic and boo and jahira still consider canon to the lore of baldurs gate or is it a up to a dm sort of thing now?

#

i know wizards put that what is canon thing a while back but at the same time boo is referenced by name in the title of the monster book for spelljammer so i was unsure

sharp owl
#

@near musk See this message for questions about lore vs canon

near musk
#

ok

manic moat
#

What are archdevils? Are they considered as strong as deities?

sharp glacier
#

I mean Asmodeous is considered an archdevil and used to be an archangel. I believe one edition said they have the same power as lesser deities

#

However I belive asmodeus is argued to have the same power as a greater deity but I'm a bit unclear on that

#

However archdevils probably overall have the same power as lesser deities

manic moat
#

I see thanks for explaining

unkempt merlin
#

Asmodeus is both an archdevil and a deity

#

Most archdevils are not as powerful as a deity

sharp glacier
#

Well just because they are not deities doesn't mean they can't be as powerful as one

#

Granted they are not on the same level as intermediate or greater deities. Certain Lesser deities can be argued to be on the same level

#

As divinity is based on a following which archdevils can get

#

For at least some arch devils

#

I don't know best I can say is it depends on how you want to run them. As you can take inspiration from previous editions which had different power levels for creatures. Which is especially fun for liches

sharp owl
sharp glacier
#

True but based off of some of the archdevils powers it could be argued that some lesser gods would have issues fighting them such as Zariels ability to regen unless the ztarget is able to use radiant damage

sharp owl
#

Game mechanics aren't for the most part diegetic in that fashion, so don't factor into discussions of lore

unkempt merlin
#

The ability to reform after death =/= being a deity. Lots of things in dnd do so. Like literally all Devils for example.

sharp glacier
#

I can understand that. However my argument would be if the good deities were that much more powerful than the devils in hell than why would they be fearful of the idea of asmodeus winning the blood war and then coming up to fight them?

unkempt merlin
#

Because that's not what the situation is

#

They are more afraid of the Abyss winning than the hells

sharp glacier
#

That is the main concern but they don't also want the hells to win either

sharp owl
#

Either side winning is a loss to the good aligned/celestial forces because of the destruction it would bring to the material plane

sharp glacier
#

Well yeah so theoretically why wouldn't they just go down there and kill everything

sharp owl
#

It doesn't matter if they could beat them or not, there would be unpreventable destruction on an unfathomable scale before any victory either way is secured

sharp owl
sharp glacier
#

Why not?

#

Destroying evil is good. And the blood war continues to kill many people over millenia

sharp owl
#

Keeping the forces of the Nine Hells and the Abyss in a stalemate of their own making is better than going in there and risking their own people

unkempt merlin
#

Also the gods generally aren't the ones most directly concerned with the situation of the hells. Their servants certainly

#

That's what caused Zariel to fall afterall

sharp owl
sharp glacier
#

Zariel fell cause she made the deal with amodeus

sharp owl
#

Yes, due to her hubris in attempting to take the fight to him

unkempt merlin
#

She made a deal with Asmodeus because she went against the desires of the gods

#

Like I said, the gods themselves aren't the ones who are most concerned with the situation of the hells

sharp glacier
#

Qell and she thought she could eventually overtake him after the blood war was won

sharp owl
#

As it stands, keeping the Blood War in a stalement is considered the path of least harm by the celestial forces, both for them and for mortals

#

Intervening is a no-win, they'll either be bolstering one side and then weakened to an attack by the remaining faction, or fighting a war on two fronts

#

All in all, the Blood War is the best case scenario for the material plane

sharp glacier
#

How for mortals? As hell stands there is a continuation of souls being tricked into temptation which has severed many even millions of souls going to the heavans and believing in the gods

unkempt merlin
#

The celestial forces in general are also acknowledged to be far more limited than those of the hells (and obviously than those of the abyss)

sharp owl
#

Because the whole reason for the Blood War is that both sides want to conquere the material plane; Hell wants to subjegate it, the Abyss wants to raze it

#

And part of the deal Asmo made with the Upper Planes was that only willing souls who condemn themselves by their own volition would be sent to Hell

#

So currently it's only those who decide to thrown their lot in that are condemened, but if Hell wins it'll be everyone, willing or not

sharp glacier
#

Yes but Asmo fell because the gods realized he was going beyond the original contract by tricking people into being sinful to gain power so it was beyond their own volition

#

So that's not entirely true

unkempt merlin
#

The origins of Asmo isn't definitive

sharp owl
#

Nah, the Trial of Asmodeus (where Primus was judge) ruled that Asmo hadn't violated any of the terms of his freedom to collect souls

unkempt merlin
#

Whether or not he truly "fell" isn't even clear

sharp owl
#

We don't know much, if anything, about his fall or other origins

sharp glacier
#

Well yes as he said read the fine print. However the gods condemned him as they had not thought that he was allowed to do that within the contract

sharp owl
#

The goalposts of this discussion feel like they're moving, so I shall too. I'm gonna drop out
Laters taters 🥔

jagged apex
#

there is also the possibility that asmodeus keeps the blood war ongoing deliberately and could have won it long ago, but keeps it going to suit his own ends, as so long as it endures the pact primeval allows him to for lack of a better term legally draft souls into hell to sustain him and his force's power to hold back and keep the demons and the threat they pose contained, least as i understand it, either way canonically asmodeus has deliberately made it so that nobody knows his true origin, save for himself and potentially one other being, neither of which have any reason to disclose such information if we are being honest, him being a fallen angel is merely the origin that most gods and scholars speculate to be true, but weather or not it is true has never been confirmed or denied

#

honestly, that level of master mind plotting potentially makes asmodeus one of the smartest beings in dnd's lore, as it is no easy feat to pull any of that off, especially when you have literal gods of things such as knowledge and secrets

sharp glacier
#

True. I can see the potential in him allowing for his archdevils to reach deity level statis as long as he still has the ability to have the reigns per se

#

If the situation calls for it

#

Once they were to take over the material plane

jagged apex
#

they literally get all their power, at least last i checked, from asmodeus himself, which kind of makes it funny that he does not discourage, at least entirely, their schemes and backstabbing including him, he already knows they are more than likely gunna fail

sharp glacier
#

Well I guess the idea may be he can't as all his followers and devils are evil aligned so you can never truly stop that.

jagged apex
#

well for asmodeus himself at least, he is first and formost Lawful, and evil second

#

besides there are many different kinds of evil in dnd and nuance to even a single alignment

#

and while we don't know which is is true origin, if any of them, i personally am of the mind set that suspects the serpent of law origin to be the most likely to be true

#

also while we are talking about asmodeus, one of my favorite bits of lore that i feel most forget is he has complete control over the 9 hells, in ever sense of the word

#

at least to my knowledge

sharp glacier
#

I did some more research and Idk I getting so many mixed messages

#

Some say archdevils are on the same level as demigods other say on the same level as lesser deities.

jagged apex
#

likely a misunderstanding

#

to my understanding their level of power is slightly above the demon lords on average at least, but is technically based on how much power asmodeus grants them, who currently is a greater deity

sharp glacier
#

Well I don't get why Asmo wouldn't be a greater deity. He rules all the nine hells. And millions of souls go there and so he would have millions of souls within his power right?

jagged apex
#

canonically the last time he appeared and had his status referenced he is a greater deity in the forgotten realms

#

though technically again, if going off the serpent of law origin, he is massively weaker still than he use to be

sharp glacier
#

Ok so he is a greater deity. So wouldnt in turn wouldn't his archdevils be lesser deities rather than just on the same power level as demigods?

jagged apex
#

no

#

asmodeus' status has nothing to do with the the status of other beings

sharp glacier
#

Well I mean he gives them his power right? So if he has greater deity power that means he can give more power right?

jagged apex
#

key word being CAN

#

he gives them the power he feels they need to do their job

sharp glacier
#

Well yeah if he wants to win the blood war wouldn't he give them the ability to win?

jagged apex
#

not a drop more, they want more, that is where their own scheming comes into play

sharp glacier
#

Well the blood war is a stalemate

#

Rn so wouldn't he give them more to win?

jagged apex
#

again, that is assuming he truely wishes to win the war, where but he canonically has deliberatly kept it in a stalemate

sharp glacier
#

Why would he want a stalemate as he would get more souls taking over the material plane?

jagged apex
#

basically what ever his true motives are, keeping the blood war in a state where neither side has won is in his best interest for one reason or another

#

he even sometimes deliberately misinforms his generals when he regularly meets up with them to give them orders of things of strategic positions to hold and the like

jagged apex
#

that is more so the case of other beings, canonically most of asmodeus, from his origins to his goals and motivations are shrouded in mystery on nearly every level

sharp glacier
#

Well didn't he fall because he sneakily put in the original contract that he was allowed to trick people to sin?

jagged apex
#

no

#

and even if he did that is just one theory

sharp glacier
#

Well it seems there is a lot of contradictions.

jagged apex
#

that is the point

#

in universes this is deliberately by asmodeus' own design, nobody knows for certain his origins or motives

#

not the gods, not lord Ao, only himself and potentially one other being in the entire multiverse know

sharp glacier
#

Yeah so I guess it's best to say I don't know. I think archdevils could theoretically challenge lesser gods if given the power from asmodeus but currently can't is the best thing to say?

jagged apex
#

not really, divine power and infernal power have major differences with the divine having the lion's share in their favor

sharp glacier
#

What would that one other being be?

jagged apex
#

they could challenge them yes, whether or not they would stand a chance at winning is another matter all together

sharp glacier
jagged apex
#

lord Ao only cares about realmspace, which is one setting in the multiverse, outside of it, he has no authority or care

#

good and evil are across the cosmos and the outer planes more often than not, especially in things like direct conflicts

#

and besides in dnd sometimes the idea of balance can be vague, tricky, or even just subjective

#

and besides gods can be good, evil, neutral, and anything in between

sharp glacier
#

Ok. So is just due to sheer numbers that the good gods not just directly win against the evil planes? Because back when asmo was still an angel they were fighting chaos and evil and stuff.

jagged apex
#

no

sharp glacier
#

So why divine more powerful than infernal? Why don't they just kill everything bad?

jagged apex
#

good and evil are not in cosmic wide direct conflict

#

at best specific individuals or pantheons are in conflict with each other for one reason or another

jagged apex
sharp glacier
#

So I guess my question is why did they stop fighting after asmo? Cause asmo was originally an angel fighting for them against chaos and evil

jagged apex
#

the abyss is sort of like a tumor and that is why it and the demons are a threat to everyone

jagged apex
sharp glacier
#

Yeah so did they just give up and let the hells fight the fight after asmo fell?

jagged apex
#

i suggest reading the wiki page for the bloodwar it will likely answer many questions

jagged apex
sharp glacier
#

Gotcha

jagged apex
sharp glacier
#

After reading the article it also seems there's a lot of different theories as to why it is still ongoing and if asmo wants to win or not

#

By not just meaning to keep it going

jagged apex
#

definitely would watch the video i just linked, AJ Pickett is a rather credible lore youtuber and to me at least often is able to present these chunks of lore well

sharp glacier
#

I'll do that. I kind of think it is overall meant to be left up to interpretation though. And the question of archdevils and even demon lords power level compared to material plane lesser gods is kind of a weird question anyway? Since they don't mess with another anyway. And it could be argued depending on the God and archdevil from the discussions I've seen based on Stat blocks. And the lore is ambiguous. But I guess for all intents and purposes they aren't as powerful as lesser deities overall.

iron saffron
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Demon lords and archdevils are not divine so they are no where close to lesser gods.

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Demon lords have cults to try to raise them to godhood (briefly in 2E Monster Mythology a few demon lords were classified as lesser gods but that was retconned).

unkempt merlin
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the thing about demon lords is their power varies dramatically

iron saffron
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In 3E demon lords and archdevils could have aspects (in the two Fiendish Codex books).

unkempt merlin
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Lolth is a demon lord and a deity, Graz'zt is a former archdevil turned demon lord, Demogorgon is also comparable to a lesser deity (and sometimes classed as such)

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
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like one of the stories of his rise to power involved him more or less butchering his way to the crown/title prince of demons, murking every demon that got in his way

jagged apex
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depending on the god in question the bulk of their power has nothing to do with combat in any way

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these days for archdevils you can't really use asmodeus as a good measuring stick since he has since become a deity in his own right in addition to his power he had before becoming a deity, and lolth for demons rarely has anything to do with demons, she is hyperfocused on her revenge against corellon

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like for demons and archdevils respectively i feel the most ideal examples for how powerful one can be are Demogorgon and Mephistopheles

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which to my knowledge is still below most gods in terms of just power, which is a rather broad term to begin with as power especially regards to gods or god like beings can be a wide array of things

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like if you look at graz'zt, while he is a powerful warrior in his own right, the bulk of his power is rooted in his demonic diplomatic skills, things like his allies, resources, ect...

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like he may be chaotic evil and a demon lord, but there is a reason he conducts himself very much like one would expect a devil to in the lore other demon lords kind of tease him about it, even calling his triple realm "the little hells"

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his rivals, demogorgon and orcus, each rely more so, at least to my knowledge, raw power or in orcus' case potentially the perpetual sustained existence he kind of accidently might have gotten himself into after his deaths and resurrections, even though it denied him the chance of ever becoming a true god again, as he was one for a time from what i recall

rain silo
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as of current lore, can tieflings with the blood of an archdevil occur and how?

feral lintel
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Tieflings are all related to Asmodeus, who is an Archdevil (and a God, but hes special)

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THere used to be more tiefling bloodlines, but Asmodeus did something to make it all his

unkempt merlin
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the thing with the "bloodlines" is it isn't always literal

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there are tieflings with bloodlines not related to asmodeus

jagged apex
jagged apex
# feral lintel Tieflings are all related to Asmodeus, who is an Archdevil (and a God, but hes s...

not all, that was do to events in a novel specifically on the world of toril, where he attempted to use this ritual to become a racial god by rewriting all tieflings on toril or at least the majority of them to be of his "bloodline", from what i recall in more recent years non devil based tieflings have begun popping up again, but the asmodeus ones still last i checked make up the majority of tielflings on toril

jagged apex
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the key part being "infused with the touch of the fiendish planes" which is not always biological, just most often it happens to be

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anyway of something of the lower planes, be it energies or blood of it's inhabitants, you are likely technically a tiefling

twilit fable
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Sorry this is prolly a dumb question but is the lore one continuous thread or does each edition have its own lore?

jagged apex
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there is no one single consecutive continuity, the closest thing is the published lore that wizards of the coast uses for when they make products that make use of the lore

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not only does each edition have differences in lore, but also each form of media, and even games played using those established settings and lore

sharp owl
twilit fable
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Ohhhh so it’s like new editions can pick and choose parts of old ones?

sharp owl
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Pretty much

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It's kinda weird and hard to explain, but you can kinda imagine lore as being copy and pasted from each edition to the next to form that new editions canon?

twilit fable
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Oh I gotcha

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Alright thanks!

dense shell
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Heya

iron saffron
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Sometimes editions update the lore while other times it retcons it. Remember that D&D lore has been around for 50 years with dozens of writers.

It's not that different from stuff from Marvel or DC Comics with writers having their own take on characters.

agile merlin
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Like, vampires used to be sort of like negative energy elementals. They subsisted off of human life energy drawn in by their touch instead of using fangs to drink blood, and any nonmagical attack would just phase through them like they weren't actually there

jagged apex
agile merlin
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That was the default, just called "vampire" one in Advanced editions

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The nosferatu vampire, back then, was the one that drank blood. Other than the difference of diet, they were the same as vampires, whereas now nosferatu have been changed to be a much more bestial vampire without a lot of the same powers (no resistance to mundane attacks) or drawbacks (doesn't need an invitation)

jagged apex
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speaking of vampires, one of my favorite variations/types is the Velya

agile merlin
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Neat

jagged apex
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they are just so interesting cuz they basically take one of the weaknesses of the kind most are likely to know of and basically flip it on it's head

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like instead of running water they suffer when they are out of the water in the open air and not touching any water

agile merlin
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Yea

feral lintel
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God, that sounds cool