#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 46 of 1

meager lotus
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This information is fantastic, thanks for putting all this together

modern mirage
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What are academic languages to learn if you’re a wizard ?

feral lintel
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Not really a lore question. Might be a better ask in #character-discussion
(Draconic, Elvish, Giant, and Celestial all fit tho.)

cinder folio
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And Dwarf.

modern mirage
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No like I wanted to know like from a lore perspective, like irl how people learn Latin, thought elvish might be one but needed an other

feral lintel
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Draconic and giant are rich with lore and magic.

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Runic magic came from the giants

modern mirage
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Cool~ see I didn’t know that

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Thanks

feral lintel
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Np

normal charm
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Hey guys I'm into lore and have recently been wondering about DND lore. I remember years ago I read my first book of the wizards of the West Coast the Thran and never got over how good it was. Recently I've taken an interest in more stories like the Thran and the fall of the Phyraxian empire. It was the first time I heard of the planes walkers. Lol there is so much. The bators map was cool. I even learned so much on you tube about the alignments of the realms but am curious how the ether became or a sea

modest badger
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You might need to repeat that. You're got into lore through Wizards of the Coast's MTG 'The Thran' novels, think the Baator (Nine Hells) maps are cool, learnt about the 'Alignment of the Realms' (not quite sure what that's referring to- the planar cosmology of D&D and how planes are 'aligned' like Upper planes = good alignment, lower planes = evil alignment), and how the Ether became a sea? Is this referring to the Ethersea from the Adventure Zone Actual Play?

cinder folio
modest badger
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Or perhaps the connection between the Ethereal plane and the Astral Sea?

jagged apex
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historically forgotten realms has a few gods of love

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so at least in the realms, you could probably use any such god for a similar role

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could be that dnd's version sort of rolled their role in with pan, being that he is noted as the god of nature and PASSION

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otherwise, perhaps if he does exist in dnd he is just so obscure he is not known, though could be they just have never had anything to do with realmspace in any capacity, it is still the forgotten realms wiki after all

jagged apex
normal charm
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I did haha my mistake. I was not thinking clearly. Hope I can be forgiven for that. I feel like an idiot.

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I'm still new to it I literally just got my feet wet and played my first game of DND yesterday.

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But the reason I posted here was to learn about the lore of DND I love stories

modest badger
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Generally the advice I give for when someone wants to get into lore, is to start with a 5e setting book related to what you're interested in, or adventure, and look things up as they come up.
There are many different settings ( worlds you can set your games in) and some have very expansive lore that it'd be impossible to try and cover without confusing everyone.

Treat it almost like learning the 5e rules- start with the basics from the book, look things up when you want to know more.

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Forgotten Realms (Faerun) is one of the most commonly used settings in 5e D&D, so books like Sword Coast Adventure Guide might be a good start. But this might not be the lore your DM uses- ask your DM about what setting they're using and any advice on where to look for lore. They may prefer you to avoid certain books, in case it spoils anything in their game.

sharp owl
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Kinda like Final Fantasy games or American Horror Stories series

normal charm
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Hmmm. I suppose so. Learning about the game is probably the only way I'll hear stories then. Are there any set in stone adventures to hear about. Yes that is probably what I mean to say. Or like published stories of adventures or anything along those lines. Like I wrote earlier I wanted to know how they destroyed the astral realms and made the astral sea. Like who did that I have to look at the video again as he only mentioned it briefly and stated it was a plane of existence until it was destroyed. . I notice it's all just compendium and not actually written tales to enjoy; but information needed to write your own tales with your friends and fans

sharp owl
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What do you mean by "hear stories"? If you mean the lore of a specific setting such as Forgotten Realms or Eberron, you can check out the respective wikis

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There are no published stories of official adventures because that would defeat the purpose of adventures by creating a 'canon' version, an official account

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If you want novels, there are plenty of those, you just have to pick your setting. Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and Dragonlance are the big ones for novels

normal charm
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I see. I guess I'll enjoy the compendium material. It's as close as I'll get. Thank you for the guidance and feedback. I hope to share any find I make.

normal charm
modest badger
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If you want stories though, as Davyd pointed out there are numerous novels. However D&D takes a sort of Marvel/DC approach to 'Canon'. The events and lore in the novels are still official and canon unto their own storyline, but might not be canon to the adventures and lore written for TTRPG game itself. Things also tend to drastically change with each edition and lore can be retconned.
Worth keeping in mind when approaching lore that it's a lot 'looser', and your own game might not use any of it.

sharp owl
normal charm
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That there is no lore for adventures that have already occurred an example I cannot go and look for someone's adventure in the DND universe so I can entertain myself. No only references for settings items creatures spells and more. But I will not be able to find an official tale in the DND universe about origins or there are no why's. Just ares. Me I would like to sit and read a tale that has occurred in the D&D universe already. But from the information I'm getting I'll find is someone's homebrew or nothing at all. Just fun facts about the game background information of the setting mobs and items. Like the best I can probably get is (Ex: I type where do dwarves come from in D&D in the Good Search bar and relevant information will pop out. )

normal charm
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Thank both for explaining things to me

modest badger
normal charm
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I'd love that. I really would.. I can't get the books myself ATM. Maybe on day.

grim siren
modest badger
# normal charm That there is no lore for adventures that have already occurred an example I can...

This isn't neccessarily true. It's just complicated.

So for example the older Dragonlance Novels are the Dragonlance Adventure's, based on characters and choices made by the Author's gaming group.

There are also books based on some of the Greyhawk adventures.

Forgotten Realms tends to avoid this and instead writes about different characters in the world of FR, exploring different aspects.

You can also watch Actual Plays if interested, where people play through prewritten adventures.

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But there's nothing quite like say, Lodross War and Replays, which was a Japanese game group writing up their game, then turning it into an anime (Not official D&D lore in any sense, but an example of 'Replays' which are more popular in Japan- Dragonlance is the closest to an official D&D replay in my mind)

grim siren
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There were some FR adventures based on novels but after how poorly the original DL ones were received it was not continued. The FR Modules would be Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep. Based on the novels of the same name.

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But as Elgate mentioned in FR which is by far the most documented setting. Adventures and novels were kept mostly separate unless a big event was going on. See the Second Sundering, or the Horde's invasion.

modest badger
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I thought the original Dragonlance ones did very well. Which is what inspired the Forgotten Realm and Greyhawk novels to try 'novelising the modules', but.. didn't catch on the same way (The Greyhawk ones were... not good)

grim siren
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Greyhawk was sadly a setting I could not get into. Its a fine setting but it felt too Gamey. which I know dnd is a game. But I am a bit story guy. DL and FR are more than enough for me in that regard. DL for Setting for One Epic Fantasy, FR for Setting of a Thousand Fantasies.

normal charm
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My brother in law was just telling me everything in DND is mostly merchandise for sale. But I understand it's good content. Like I told him why not get dry erase character sheets. He stated it's all expensive. We're probably just poor. But hey we love the stuff enough to run a session from 7pm to 130 am.

sharp owl
normal charm
sharp owl
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Do you understand what D&D is?

modest badger
normal charm
normal charm
# sharp owl Do you understand what D&D _is_?

It's a roleplaying game right? We get to use materials made by I'm not sure who makes the DnD world but I'll just say the Creators right made this awesome stuff that we can use to write our own adventures. It comes with these mechanics that help us play. We use dice and character sheets. And forge out our own adventures in a vast world broken into books. I have the D&D Beyond app and tho most is for sale they do have some samples to help people get into the vibe of roleplaying.

normal charm
grim siren
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I get exactly what you are saying. Yeah that is about it really. Lore is optional but a fantastic tool to make your worlds feel grounded.

sharp owl
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The key thing to remember when it comes to lore is that there is lore but no single lore because there's no single setting

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And the lore doesn't relate to adventures because Wizards of the Coast doesn't want to say "yeah, the way you played that adventure isn't the official right way to play it"

normal charm
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I wish I could share pictures. I tried to send a message to guy but I didn't go through. And well idk if it's because we are not friends. But I'll add you just to share the picture. Yeah??

sharp owl
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No thanks you

normal charm
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Mkay. That's cool.

sharp owl
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There's no reason to send pictures as it relates to this channel

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If you don't have a specific lore question and instead just want to read novels set in a D&D setting, I'm sure you can get some good recommendations in #dnd-discussion

normal charm
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It does it's the table right showing the Dms protector so we don't see what he's coming up with a few characters like the models and then my character sheets haha I thought it looked cool. But it's okay I don't have to share it. Maybe someone else. But back to the conversation. So I watched a video on the planes of existence. And I think my favorite place was plane scape. And the city of sigil. Featuring the Lady of pain. And the many factions in the city and the fact there are many portals to and from the many planes of existence.

sharp owl
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None of that is relevant to this channel. That's not lore related

grim siren
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The City of Sigil is a wonderous place. 5e's interpretation did a decent enough job at updating it. I am glad the events of Faction War were largely ignored. That was a bad time in my experience.

normal charm
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How is it not lore related? I'm speaking on the history of the D&D universe as whole

sharp owl
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The pictures of your DM screen and character sheet is what I was referring to

normal charm
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Oh your good.

grim siren
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If you like the Lady of Pain I recommend checking out Pages of Pain by Troy Denning, it gives great insights on the Lady herself and the book is told through her POV. You don't learn any secrets about her which is honestly a great feat in a book meant to elevate her mystery while following her eyes.

normal charm
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Now that's cool

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I literally went to look this up : Lore
Is a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth.
So the things we talk about, as long as they pertain to The World of Dungeons and Dragons; in relevance to Creatures items spells mobs locations and historical texts about known sects factions militias and figures. Can be considered lore. An example Shadow fen is the Darker Side of the Prime material world and Faerune is the lighter side so as I've been told by oral relation. It can be debated if what is prime material world. The conversation being about the world. And the words in the conversation can be considered lore. At this point based of the education definition of what lore is.

sharp owl
normal charm
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... That's what I've been saying I'm literally looking a subject to put your savy knowledge to the test

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Two seconds

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God Almighty Davyd this was a read even at the rate I was reading. I'll probably have to sit there and read the entire thing just to find my answer if it's even there. But here is a hyperlink to the page I was looking for to find my answer if the the Astral plane was destroyed and became the Astral Sea. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Astral_Plane

sharp owl
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No, the Astral Plane hasn't been destroyed.

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The Astral Plane encompasses two planes of existence; the Astral Sea and Wildspace, which itself is an overlap of the Astral Sea and the material plane

normal charm
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Something happened I'm not sure what that lead to the rupture of the Astral plane that transformed it from a circular plane into a spread of raw energy that leads to all planes of existence both inward towards the Prime material worlds, the lower and upper worlds of the outer planes. I don't have any more information on the subject as it's underdeveloped.

sharp owl
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I'm not familiar with that nor can I find any reference to it anywhere

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The closest I can find to anything that sounds like that is the effect of the spellplague on the astral sea

normal charm
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Perhaps it wasn't an actual cataclysmic event, but something of what you speak of where the lives of those within the space died not the actual environment or its death. My research shall continue. I cannot find historical texts about events that have occurred in the astral sea as you call it. " How did it even get the name astral sea?" So many questions... I hope I was not rude I definitely enjoyed reading your responses. Tell me more of this spell plague

sharp owl
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It got the name 'astral sea' because it's like a sea

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People sail it via spelljammer ships

unkempt merlin
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Astral Sea and Astral Plane are just interchangeable names yea

sharp owl
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Not quite

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The Astral Plane encompasses two planes of existence; the Astral Sea and Wildspace, which itself is an overlap of the Astral Sea and the material plane

unkempt merlin
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Iirc it's used as such in the DMG

sharp owl
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Spelljammer: Adventures in Space > Astral Adventurer's Guide > Terminology

In Wildspace, the Material Plane and the Astral Plane overlap. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and are effectively on both of those planes at once. If you were to leave your home world and continue outward until you neared the edge of your Wildspace system, you would begin to see a faint, silvery haze. By traveling into this haze, you pass from Wildspace into the Astral Sea, more colorfully known as the Silver Void. The deeper into the Astral Sea you travel, the thicker and brighter the haze becomes, but the stars that shine through it are always visible. Wildspace and the Astral Sea together comprise the Astral Plane.

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More recent source than the DMG ☝️

unkempt merlin
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Ah so it classes it like that because it wants to have a delineation between the full Astral and the overlap it has with the material (aka wildspace)

sharp owl
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Yeah

unkempt merlin
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Cause wildspace isn't it's own plane

sharp owl
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It kinda is in that it's a unique locale formed by the overlapping of two planes

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Wildspace has it's own rules distinct from the Astral Sea and Material Plane

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It's kinda like the Ethereal Plane in many aspects

unkempt merlin
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Just fwiw this is the bit of the DMG I was referring to, which notably doesn't actually contradict what Astral adventurers guide says

The Astral Plane is the realm of thought and dream, where visitors travel as disembodied souls to reach the Outer Planes. It is a great silvery sea, the same above and below, with swirling wisps of white and gray streaking among motes of light like distant stars. Most of the Astral Sea is a vast, empty expanse.

sharp owl
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Yeah, that's pretty much saying similar things in a different way

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Although I think it's fair to say you're right about Wildspace not being it's own distinct plane. It's not like you could plane shift there

unkempt merlin
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Wildspace is functionally similar to the Border Ethereal. Ie: it's a region of overlap between two planes but is technically considered a part of only one of them (the Astral and the Ethereal respectively)

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Coincidentally both are overlaps with the material

sharp owl
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking

unkempt merlin
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The Ethereal Plane is a misty, fog-bound dimension. Its "shores," called the Border Ethereal, overlap the Material Plane and the Inner Planes

normal charm
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Almost every travel spell may be used to access the Astral Plane. Even a humble door, if cast in the right place, can open a way onto the Great Realm. There also exist spells such as astral projection which are specifically designed to bring travellers to the Astral Plane.

The Astral Plane never mingles with other planes under normal circumstances, although magical accidents can bring about temporary vortices. Such incidents are quickly repaired by the Planewrights. Natural portals to the Astral Plane are rare, and usually occur where the fabric of reality has worn thin or large numbers of entities have used planar travel spells.

There are an infinite number of natural portals leading from the Great Realm to other planes. These are known as colour pools. They form and dissolve randomly as storms run across the Astral Plane

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I found this. I find it interesting as in a future game I hope to find a way to travel from plane to plane

iron saffron
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That's up to your DM but that's outside of the scope of this channel.

normal charm
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Like I haven't found a historical document or text or even a story about the Astral Sea just raw material on how to make a great game or understanding the setting a little bit better. But like in 5 minutes probably should talk about something else. Or someone can give me an example of what you mean by D&D lore.

normal charm
sharp owl
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Literally everything that's been discussed about the astral plane

iron saffron
normal charm
normal charm
feral lintel
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That's critical role

iron saffron
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Critical Role is its own thing.

feral lintel
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Not really canon to actual DnD

normal charm
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Just as I was giving up too

sharp owl
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This channel doesn't so much care about canon

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Exandria falls under settings published by Wizards of the Coast

sharp owl
normal charm
# sharp owl If you have a specific question, you can ask the channel rather than making dema...

You're really helpful honestly. I hope I'm not offensive or anything. I'm just genuinely looking for historical events. Or This D&D lore that eludes my understanding. I've even started using what information you've given me and still I'm told. No; what you're talking about isn't relevant to this chat. I just don't understand. But I am enjoying the conversations. And the learning. I just don't know. What would constitute as Lore in your book I need an Example.

iron saffron
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Taps channel's sign:

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

normal charm
iron saffron
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Official TSR/WotC books, be it source books, adventures/modules, or novels.

feral lintel
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This channel discusses the history that already happened.

normal charm
sharp owl
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No, they cannot tell you all the lore that has happened in all the settings of D&D....

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A single setting, the Forgotten Realms, has a massive wiki dedicated to its lore

feral lintel
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That would span over... 50 (realtime) years of DnD lore

sharp owl
feral lintel
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The link provided above cna help you get started

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But you dont need to know everything to play either

sharp owl
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Those are just some of the settings

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And some of the wikis for them

iron saffron
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If you play a homebrew setting then the official lore may not help.

sharp owl
normal charm
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Haha so I played my first game from 7pm to 1:30am and found this chat some time earlier gosh that was interesting to learn about the astral realms it was nice talking to you guys it's 1230 pm so I've been awake for long time my head hurt trying to count up the hours so yeah. Haha y'all be blessed. I may try to bring another topic later on or not I'm beat.

modest badger
fading depot
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Hello! A question about the rules regarding the playable races of the Forgotten Realms world. In the world of Dragonlance there are no orcs but there are minotaurs as a playable race: In the world of the Forgotten Realms there are orcs as a playable race but are minotaurs a playable race or are they considered monsters in that environment?

modest badger
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Minotaurs exist in FR, so they could be playable with DM permission, and the MPMM versions are rather setting generic (Although all versions seem based on the UA Krynn Minotaur )

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Also being playable or not doesn't really define whether something is monstrous or not.

fading depot
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With DM permission even a Super Star Destroyer can be flying over Waterdeep or orcs can appear in Dragonlance. It's not about that. The question is, canonically and strictly by the rules, are minotaurs a playable race in the Forgotten Realms or are they monsters?

iron saffron
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Gameplay mechanic isn't within the scope of this channel.

modest badger
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Playability isn't a lore question.

iron saffron
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Ask your DM.

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Lore isn't involved in what's playable or not.

fading depot
modest badger
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Minotaurs exist in FR.

iron saffron
fading depot
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Like "Exist", they exist... But they have always been monsters while in other environments they were playable races. That is the big question, if they have suddenly become playable canonically or not, they are only playable in those environments where they have always been playable.

modest badger
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What, within the lore, diegetically, makes something playable?

iron saffron
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Again, "playability" isn't a lore question because it's a gameplay mechanic one. Each edition has different rules on what can be playable. 3.5E had the optional rules on playing monstrous PCs with Level Adjustment.

modest badger
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I get that you were suggested to come to here from Rules, because the user there thought the wording of your question was trying to figure out if it 'made sense' to be able to play a minotaur (because you mentioned that orcs aren't playable in DL, because they don't exist).

iron saffron
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What is "playable" in one edition may not be playable in another. And besides, the DM has final say.

Again, this has nothing to do with lore/canon.

modest badger
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But 'playability' is not lore. There is nothing within the setting itself marking out which creatures are playable or not. Elves do no know they are playable.
Being playable does not affect the creature within the lore. It does not determine whether they are 'monstrous' or not.

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So the first answer still applies- Minotaurs exist in FR. The playable minotaur option in MPMM is fairly setting generic and can work for minotaurs across many settings, although it is different to the NPC minotaur statblock- so if you DM allows them, then the player could play one. The differences in stats between the NPC statblock and some playable race stats is definitely one that can be difficult to explain. Some statblocks are intended for different settings.

fading depot
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That is a problem that I was considering right now, if suddenly some large-sized, monster-type beings become medium-sized and humanoid-type, apart from the fact that they have never been walking around the cities like now. It would be like turning ogres into a player race, it looks a little strange.

iron saffron
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Ask your DM. This isn't lore related.

magic jackal
modest badger
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I will say that looking at the 5e playable minotaur history, it first started out as intended for Krynn (Dragonlance), then was for MTG (Theros, Ravinica), then became more generic.

fading depot
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I am precisely the DM and I love clear rules without trying to invent anything that is outside the canons and settings. My question is precisely whether, based on that vision of the rules, the minotaurs in Toril make sense to use them as a playable race or leave them as they have always been, monsters.

modest badger
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Again, being playable or not does not define monstrousness.

iron saffron
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Lore has nothing to do with the rules though.

fading depot
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You don't understand what I mean. If until now the minotaurs were enemy monsters that were hunted and consequently did not appear in the cities of Toril, now as a playable race would they appear as normal and smaller in size, would they no longer be large?

iron saffron
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This involves gameplay mechanics (creatures size) which doesn't belong in this channel.

fading depot
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Forget the size part, let's get to the part about what is that minotaur doing walking around the tavern if last week we entered a dungeon and killed one that was a monster?

iron saffron
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Lore doesn't deal with "what if" scenarios just history of official published material.

fading depot
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Ok. Thanks to all. 🙂

modest badger
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5e is also moving away from humanoids being biologically predetermined to be 'evil' or not.
Now some issue here is that NPC minotaurs are monstrosities, but in general races that in older editions were considered 'kill on sight' (and honestly that was dubious even then), are given more nuance. They have free will, have cultures and differences.

So same way you'd deal with having killed human cultists or bandits, then going to a tavern with humans in it.

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It does look like moving forward though, Minotaurs will be humanoids.
Book of Many things has Minotaur NPCs that are humanoids, not monstrositites. These Minotaurs are from an adventure originally set in Nentir Vale, not FR, but BoMT says you can place the adventure anywhere.
So we have the UA Krynn minotaur, MTG Theros and Ravinica Minotaur, Nentir Vale Minotaurs, and 'generic' (MPMM) as humanoids. The 2024 MM may very well change the base MM minotaur to humanoid as well.

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Creature type is also strange mechanically. It somewhat intersects with lore and design (Such as how it intersects with alignment), but in this case is really more of a mechanical issue than lore issue.

thorny phoenix
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Is there any known information if there has ever been an ancient dragon rampaging the area between Neverwinter and Neverwinter Wood or nearby? Or has anything similar appeared in any previous adventures or any other sources?

modest badger
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Not really rampaging, but my first thought of an ancient dragon connected to neverwinter with less than altruistic intentions was Claugliyliamater, An ancient green dragon who messes with politics.

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You could also try and look into the Rage of Dragons, where many dragons went mad and attacked each other and others around them.

pure knoll
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Question, are Dyrrn replacements for Elder Brains in Eberron?

jagged apex
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not to my knowledge

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Dyrrn is an individual

jagged apex
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though to my knowledge wizards of the coast has not really addressed elder brains in their eberron continuity, so if you do not want to use the lore that keith uses for his continuity, it would otherwise be up to interpretation, but i see no reason to believe keith's lore on them would not be valid especially since to my knowledge wizards' version of eberron's continuity does not really mention the elderbrains or nessissarily say Dyrrn replaces them

sharp owl
jagged apex
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basically in eberron it goes in terms of hierarchy for lack of a better term
Dyrrn -> Elder brains -> illithid

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again with the elder brains basically being part of a network with Dyrrn at the center of them and thus effectively are an extention of Dyrrn

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at least as i understand it from what i was able to find from keith david's blog on the topic of the gith in eberron which also addressed that topic with the illithid, since to my knowledge the role of elder brains in eberron is not really addressed by wizards in their continuity, so can understand why one might think that they may not exist in eberron

unkempt merlin
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they exist in mind flayer communities in eberron in effectively the same role as they do in most other settings. At the center of them. They, like many aberrations in Eberron, are servant/creations of the Daelkyr, of which Dyrrn is one

jagged apex
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and presumably is the main leader of the illithid, via the network of elder brains or directly, given the illithid of eberron refer to him as The Overmind

unkempt merlin
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he is not the only daelkyr who has illithid servants

jagged apex
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though not sure how the elder brains are made on eberron, but presumably they are still able to help create more illithid, and that Dyrrn likely just directly made the initial batch when the gith world fell

jagged apex
reef coral
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Although it seems that Symbionts can become weapons/armor so I don’t think that they’re very closely related.

pure knoll
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Thank you all very much! Sorry, I fell asleep

jagged apex
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at least enough to where he can probably make a lot, which kind of makes sense if he is the origin of all mindflayers in eberron, makes sense he'd also be able to make what is effectively the kind of tech that illithid tend to use historically in their lore in other settings

bronze mirage
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My players want to kill a god of order. Anyone know the best one to use?

jagged apex
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depends on the setting, also sounds more so a question for #dm-discussion especially since realistically going by the lore, very few if any are at risk of being harmed, let alone killed by mortals

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
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ah

still ridge
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I have a question, why is Yuanti not considered humanoids according to monstermanual?

feral lintel
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Because they're serpents that took on a more humanoid apearance

still ridge
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huh, are Legs the only difference there, as yuan ti have complex social structures and drives just like other humanoids

feral lintel
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Well, other non-humanoid creatures also have social structures

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Dragons, Giants, etc. They arent Humanoids

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Mind Flayers too

still ridge
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that is fair

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

Wait, are they humans?

unkempt merlin
#

Some yuan ti are humanoid

jagged apex
#

some were, some were literally made from humans

feral lintel
#

I thought they had their own origin

#

Ah ic

jagged apex
#

quote from monsters of the multiverse, regarding the yuan-ti from the player character side of things "Yuan-ti were originally humans who transformed themselves into serpent folk through ancient rituals. Most yuan-ti were corrupted into monsters by those rites, but some yuan-ti instead became a new people who mix characteristics of humans and snakes."

still ridge
#

ahhh

#

thank you

jagged apex
#

basically the first yuan-ti are typically humans altered by magic, that magic is passed down in the dna of their offsprings, resulting in them as a race, but they are technically are still not natural and magical in their origin

still ridge
#

fascinating

unkempt merlin
#

Which doesn't really matter for their creature type

#

Yuan Ti purebloods have just as magical an origin as abominations

feral lintel
#

Monstrosities are a catch all category for magical or unnatural monsters anyway

unkempt merlin
#

Yet one is Humanoid typed and the other monstrosity

#

Creature type also isn't so strictly a lore thing anyway

jagged apex
#

monstrosities basically fall into two for lack of a better term, subcategories

#

creatures created via magical or otherwise unnatural means

feral lintel
jagged apex
#

and those that just don't quite fit the criteria of any of the other categories

magic jackal
#

They're the least "monstrous" and the most "humanoid" of the Yuan-Ti.

#

I don't think it's more complicated than that.

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

ah ic ic

jagged apex
#

and yuan-ti at least those on toril work in terms of more snake like = better, thus the most human like yuan-ti are viewed as the least and lowest of their cast systems

feral lintel
#

Didnt they have an ironic name for the more human ones?

jagged apex
#

though saddly we have little to no info regarding the norms of yuan-ti outside of the evil cult like ones we know of mainly from toril

jagged apex
magic jackal
#

Also hmm, Yuan-Ti in MPMotM are not called Purebloods at all actually.

unkempt merlin
#

Pureblood was just an example. Other yuan ti types are humanoid as well

magic jackal
#

Which ones?

unkempt merlin
#

FR Broodguards are humanoid for example

#

Aka the ones from volos

magic jackal
#

Monstrosity in MotM

unkempt merlin
#

It's just a matter of creature type not inherently being lore indicative

unkempt merlin
magic jackal
#

Also Broodguard are not full Yuan Ti

jagged apex
#

and also considered legacy content for a while now

magic jackal
#

They're closer to Humans than any Yuan Ti save for Purebloods.

#

Because they're just humans that were fed some mutative alchemical ingredients.

unkempt merlin
#

The process for creating a broodguard is on par with creating monstrosity types

#

It's just a matter of creature type being a mechanic

magic jackal
#

Eh, that's not really contextually definable.

#

You can't really define the extremity of a given process as "This is enough to make a monstrosity" "This isn't", it's a lot looser than that.

#

My point was the types define what a thing narratively is, i.e. how monstrous you're meant to read it as for monstrosity.

unkempt merlin
#

Because monstrosity is 50% a non informative creature type

#

The descriptions of brood guards would easily place them as monstrous creatures when put alongside any number of other things

#

Heck that's why they got reclassed as such for setting generic lore. But in the FR they are humanoid

magic jackal
#

Yuan Ti Purebloods are not monstrosity because they're meant to be read as close to humanoids, and Broodguards are partially transformed humanoids subjected to a transformative experiment.

crude blaze
# magic jackal Eh, that's not really contextually definable.

They kinda are though.

Monstrosities are monsters in the strictest sense — frightening creatures that are not ordinary, not truly natural, and almost never benign. Some are the results of magical experimentation gone awry (such as owlbears), and others are the product of terrible curses (including minotaurs and yuan-ti). They defy categorization, and in some sense serve as a catch-all category for creatures that don’t fit into any other type.
That being said, this is also older (though still of this edition) lore, and Monstrosity is also kinda just the catch-all monster type.

magic jackal
crude blaze
#

I’d say broodguard fits perfectly well in Monstrosity though. Nowhere near close to Humanoid, imo.

magic jackal
crude blaze
#

Gotcha

jagged apex
#

volos again has been considered legacy content for a long time, thus meaning the non legacy printing is for effective purposes considered the canonically accurate one

magic jackal
#

If the point in a setting is to read Broodguards as vestiges of humanity corrupted then they're gonna read as Humanoid vs in an agnostic context they're Monstrosity.

unkempt merlin
magic jackal
#

I'm aware, I'm using that race to muddy the line between monstrosity and humanoid in an agnostic vs setting specific context.

unkempt merlin
#

Physically, broodguards are significantly more transformed than multiple malison types

crude blaze
#

Yeah I’d say even from just a narrative standpoint, they’re the most far from humanoid.

unkempt merlin
crude blaze
#

Save for maybe the anathema

magic jackal
unkempt merlin
#

Really though, as already mentioned, this place isnt really the place to be trying to use mechanics to explain lore. Creature type is mechanics, not lore.

magic jackal
#

Broodguards are just people turned into a subservient slave class for the Yuan Ti by experimentation.

unkempt merlin
magic jackal
#

Again, I'm explaining how creature type is actually used in the case of Yuan Ti in the Forgotten Realms to classify how you're intended to read a creature, in the case of Yuan Ti, how full their transformation is on more than just a physical level.

#

Malison are full Yuan Ti, they're the middle caste.

#

Purebloods are the lowest caste and they're intended to infiltrate humanoid society

#

Physically the transformation looks less severe but the transformation is much more significant in Malison than Broodguard.

#

(Also Malisons are born)

unkempt merlin
#

the point was that all yuan-ti are just humans who have been transformed

magic jackal
#

Supposedly in Yuan-Ti Society they believe every member is born exactly as they are needed by their Civilization. If they need Purebloods, Purebloods are born, etc.

magic jackal
crude blaze
#

I feel like by that logic, red and blue slaadi are closer to humanoid because of the way they multiply than the others.

unkempt merlin
magic jackal
#

I mean the ritual to transform humans to Yuan Ti still exists and is performed sure.

crude blaze
#

Idk, I think that just because broodguards come directly from humanoid bodies that means they’re more humanoid than the other Yuan-Ti.

magic jackal
#

But the point is like, the creature type in the FR I think denotes specific narrative connotations.

magic jackal
#

Because they're not full Yuan Ti.

unkempt merlin
#

the lore doesn't suggest that. especially not with the fact its explicit they can all interbreed

magic jackal
#

And Purebloods are Humanoids because they need to be to infiltrate humanoid societies.

#

And the rest are monstrosities because they are meant to be narratively read as monstrosities.

jagged apex
#

outside of the writings in universe of scholars and sages, the terms used in creature typings are more or less arbitrary as far as lore is concerned

unkempt merlin
#

correct

magic jackal
magic jackal
#

My point is more meta narrative, "It's meant to be seen as more of a monstrosity and further from a human, hence the typing"

unkempt merlin
#

The bodies of all yuan-ti have a mix of humanlike and snakelike parts, but the proportion varies from individual to individual. After the initial metamorphosis of the humans, their society quickly coalesced into a caste system based on how complete a person's transformation was. The vast majority of yuan-ti fall into three categories-abominations, malisons, and purebloods-while the mutated broodguards and exceedingly rare anathemas have their place in the hierarchy as well.
The three types of yuan ti are all just as "full yuan ti" as any other. Its almost purely a societal thing that separates them based on the amount they are transformed

jagged apex
#

seems like this might have been just a misunderstanding between you two, as seems you were likely looking at the subject from 2 different lenses so to speak

magic jackal
#

That's what I've been saying...

unkempt merlin
#

I've reiterated my perspective multiple times for a reason

#

Meta narrative has nothing to do with the lore

magic jackal
#

I disagree, because meta-narrative can indicate how we're supposed to read ambiguity in the lore.

unkempt merlin
#

not when the meta narrative is a mechanics thing

#

because thats all creature type is

magic jackal
#

In this case, ambiguity exists in creature type which is sometimes arbitrary and not always symmetrical with the lore.

crude blaze
unkempt merlin
magic jackal
#

I mean MMM isn't trying to be FR.

unkempt merlin
#

the descriptions of the broodguard are effectively identical between the two

#

so the lore is clearly meant to be the same

#

for their creation and treatment within yuan ti society that is

magic jackal
#

MPMM has little of the context of Yuan Ti society that FR does tho

unkempt merlin
#

The context given to the broodguards is the same

magic jackal
#

Not really cuz Yuan Ti aren't the same.

unkempt merlin
#

They are described as being made and existing in the same type of societies

magic jackal
#

They're really not tho, there's very little of the same context because there's just way more for FR and in Volos because it's trying to be a setting specific supplement.

#

I'm making the case why Volos has it as humanoid, because it's intended to be narratively resonant for one specific setting, while MPMM is just going for consistency because it's setting agnostic.

unkempt merlin
#

The lore given for Yuan Ti in MMM is near identical to the lore given for yuan ti in the monster manual/volos.

#

the only one that has mildly different lore is the playable version

jagged apex
#

just gunna throw it out there, even Ed greenwood himself refers to Volo, who he created, as "an unreliable narrator" and again volo's guide to monsters is legacy content

unkempt merlin
magic jackal
#

Ah, you're misunderstanding what I'm getting at again I think.

#

Also there's really not much context in Mordenkainens at all.

#

It's got none of the "Part of a Chapter dedicated to their Lore"

unkempt merlin
#

The narrative being applied to yuan ti in all three books is the same narrative

#

its consistent across the MM, Volos, and MMM

magic jackal
#

Not really, no. There's a great deal more context in Volos. And I think it's fair to say MPMM is far less concerned with what's narratively resonant and more what's internally mechanically consistent.

unkempt merlin
#

each might have varying amounts, but the context is the same

#

especially the relevant context

magic jackal
#

Anyways my point is Volos is trying to be FR centric, MPMM is trying to be specifically not FR centric, setting agnostic. What does Humanoid mean in the FR vs Monstrosity may not be the same as what it means in a very super general context.

unkempt merlin
#

except when it does and the contexts given are identical. Both in regards to broodguards and also in regards to all the other yuan ti types.

#

including purebloods

magic jackal
#

And they may also be trying to reframe things in MPMM, relative to what the initial framing was intended to be.

unkempt merlin
#

Nothing outside of the playable yuan ti was reframed in MMM

#

Anathemas, Mind Whisperers, Nightmare Speakers, Pit Masters, and Broodguards all have the same lore and descriptions as they do in Volos

magic jackal
#

I mean, clearly it is cuz they turned it from humanoid to monstrosity, and changed the general lore around the playable race (i.e. the lense players view them through) to be wayyyy more generic, and did away with a bunch of lore.

unkempt merlin
#

Broodguards are humanoids transformed by yuan-ti into simple-minded, scaly creatures that do their masters' bidding. The transformation process warps not only a subject's body but also its mind, making it instinctively obey any yuan-ti and filling it with a seething rage that rises at the sight of non-reptilian creatures.
Although broodguards have low intelligence, they are able to perform simple yet important tasks in the community, such as guarding eggs or patrolling for intruders. The yuan-ti refer to broodguards as "histachii," which means "egg-watchers."
vs
Broodguards were once Humanoids, but they have been transformed by yuan-ti into simpleminded, scaly Monstrosities that do their serpentine masters' bidding. The transformation process warps not only a subject's body but also their mind, making them instinctively obey any yuan-ti and filling them with a seething rage at the sight of non-reptilian creatures.
Although broodguards can no longer think as clearly as before their transformation, they are able to perform simple yet important tasks in the community, such as guarding eggs or patrolling for intruders. Yuan-ti refer to broodguards as "histachii," which means "egg-watchers."
this is the same lore

magic jackal
#

You're just not getting the point I'm trying to make here.

unkempt merlin
#

no, I know what you are trying to say. I am saying it doesn't make sense.

#

You are attempting to explain the differences with things that run opposite to what the lore presents

#

You can't say that the differences are because of lore and context when the lore and context are consistent

magic jackal
#

If you'll let me get to my point, I think the original intent in Volos was to frame Broodguard and Purebloods as the closest to Humanoids for different reasons, Broodguards because their transformation is the least severe and Purebloods because they are closest to Humanoids because they're intended to infiltrate Humanoid civilizations, and also arguably (in the cases of those that are transformed by the Full Yuan Ti Blood Ritual, and not some "Magic Brew") are subject to the second least severe transformation.

Then you look at every other type, they are all Monstrosities because they're intended to be further from Humanoid in the above listed capacities. You could even make the case it's framed in such a way that the more Monstrous, i.e. less Humanoid one is (on a holistic level, not just physical), the higher one is in the FR Yuan-Ti caste structure.

#

Now again, Monstrosity and Humanoid are just descriptors, categories, not lore things, but I think there was at least some context from Volos as to why they were categorized that way.

#

And I think MPMM is just overall less concerned with lore and more with mechanical internal consistency, and that's why Broodguards and all non playable Yuan Ti are monstrosities. That's purely a mechanical thing and not informed by lore context at all, probs.

#

I think it's pretty fair to say Volos cares more about being a Lore consistent product than MPMotM lol, so we can perhaps interpret a little more Lore from it.

graceful steppe
#

What is the barbarian’s rage ?
Do you have to be a monster of nature to be a barb or is the rage what boosts the physical attributes ?

iron saffron
#

Lore doesn't deal with gameplay mechanics, such as class features.

#

Taps channel's sign:

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

graceful steppe
#

I’m asking for your opinions, rage is an integrated part of the lord no?

iron saffron
#

Again, not a lore question.

#

Lore doesn't deal with gameplay mechanics.

magic jackal
#

Rage as a part of the Lore can be found in the Barbarian Page on the FR Wiki.

iron saffron
#

Think of lore as history. There aren't really opinions since we base the lore on what has been published officially by TSR/WotC's campaign settings.

magic jackal
#

characterized by a bestial rage empowered either by ancestral totems and nature spirits[10] or an inner passion for violence.

#

Only those who embraced the wild and primal ways of the rage could rightly call themselves a barbarian, imbuing them with a wild spirit not found among most warriors.

iron saffron
#

That's just the wiki breaking down the gameplay mechanics.

magic jackal
#

The most distinctive aspect of barbarians was their ability to "rage," wherein they let loose powerful emotional bursts fueled by their primal power or inner fury

magic jackal
iron saffron
#

And I'm trying to iterate to the OP that classes and their features are gameplay mechanics.

agile merlin
#

I mean, it's inspired by Norse berserkers and wolf shirters, riling themselves up into ecstasy and what not

#

Why can't barbarians in the lore do the same thing, canonically?

iron saffron
#

You the player can flavour however the source of their barbarian's rage is sourced from.

#

Because lore doesn't deal with classes...

magic jackal
#

Lore does, to an extent, deal with classes.

#

The Classes are defined quantities within the Lore, a Druid has an actual lore capacity, history, explanation for why they can do what they do etc.

#

Lore covers stuff like "What's the History of Barbarians? Where does Rage come from? What are the implications of it etc." not "What mechanically does Rage do?" which would be #dnd-rules or #dnd-discussion

#

Like, Rage as a primal power that calls on spirits or animalistic totems, or the fact that using it tends to drive people away from a lawful bent, because it embodies chaotic aspects of the wild and stuff, etc. that's all Lore.

graceful steppe
#

I’m not asking abt gameplay there

modest badger
# graceful steppe What is the barbarian’s rage ? Do you have to be a monster of nature to be a bar...

PHB/Basic Rules gives this info:

For some, their rage springs from a communion with fierce animal spirits. Others draw from a roiling reservoir of anger at a world full of pain. For every barbarian, rage is a power that fuels not just a battle frenzy but also uncanny reflexes, resilience, and feats of strength.

Xanathar tries to explain the lore behind Rage as thus:

The anger felt by a normal person resembles the rage of a barbarian in the same way that a gentle breeze is akin to a furious thunderstorm. The barbarian’s driving force comes from a place that transcends mere emotion, making its manifestation all the more terrible. Whether the impetus for the fury comes entirely from within or from forging a link with a spirit animal, a raging barbarian becomes able to perform supernatural feats of strength and endurance.

Barbarians over all in the lore are people who are connected to nature, but in a different way to druids or rangers. They are people who live more in tune with their instincts and are flavoured as nomads as apparently being settled is 'not natural enough'.

graceful steppe
modest badger
#

On an edition note, AD&D barbarians didn't rage AFAIK. 3.5 introduced this 'berserker' element, and it wasn't supernatural, but just an extraordinary push of anger/battle rage that left them exhausted.
3.5 PHB:

Where the fighter's skill in combat comes from training and discipline, however, the barbarian has a powerful rage. While in this berserk fury, he becomes stronger and tougher, better able to defeat his foes and withstand their attacks. These rages leave him winded, and he has the energy for only a few such spectacular displays per day, but those few rages are usually sufficient. He is at home in the wild, and he runs at great speed.

In 4e they became more supernatural and were classed as 'Primal' abilities, same as druids and rangers:
4e PHB II:

For barbarians’ foes, the moments of greatest terror come when barbarians call upon primal forces to lend power to their raging spirits. These rages, although temporary, give a barbarian incredible powers, a combination of skill, willpower, and a legacy of ancient tribal rituals. As a barbarian, you have a link to powerful nature spirits and other primal forces bound to the warriors of your tribe by the songs and totems of your legacy. These spirits lend energy to your rages, transforming you into a devastating force on the battlefield.

You can see that lore echoed in 5e, where it's more something akin to a supernatural ability.

serene crater
#

Quick question, while it could be flexible, I wanted to see if it is could be plausible. In the event of an attack on a city from an invading force (devils in this case) would it be possible to see followers of gods like Lathander and Illmater and the cultists of the dead three working together (albeit begrudgingly and temporary)

iron saffron
magic jackal
#

A question for here might be "Have followers of Good and Evil Gods ever worked together in the past?"

iron saffron
#

The churches of gods tend not to have standing armies.

magic jackal
#

But many do have militant and/or simply active affiliated organizations

magic jackal
#

Because I said followers not armies

#

Also that strongly depends on the god in question I'd say

iron saffron
#

Hence "tend not to"

magic jackal
#

I wouldn't say tend because it's such high variance

iron saffron
magic jackal
#

I'm aware.

iron saffron
#

That's not aimed at you.

magic jackal
#

Doesn't really relate back to their question tho, they were effectively asking if followers of Good gods would work with followers of the dead three, or framed in the context of this channel, have ever done so in the past

iron saffron
#

Well, cross out the Triad since those three gods consider Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul enemies.

#

Lathander is an ally of the Traid but no direct hatred towards the Dead Three, whereas Bhaal and Myrkul hate him.

magic jackal
#

I mean they said Gods like Lathander or Ilmater

iron saffron
#

Just tossing it out the big name good gods, dude.

surreal bolt
#

ilmater gives me the heebie jeebies

strange current
#

I have a random question for someone even more lore savvy than i am; why don’t green dragons take over the underdark

magic jackal
#

a) The Underdark is incredibly massive, and there just aren't enough Green Dragons, and they don't tend to work together, many things there are b) stronger than dragons and/or c) resistant/immune to poison

modest badger
#

I'm curious as to why you thought Green dragons would? As opposed to any other dragon, including those native to the underdark.

strange current
#

A) i’m being very generalistic when i say that.
B) by how much
C) i thought that the breath weapon of the green dragons is acidic in nature

modest badger
#

Black dragons deal acid damage, Green dragons deal poison.

strange current
magic jackal
#

I think you've severely underestimated how big the Underdark is or how diverse its environments are

modest badger
#

The underdark is not merely tunnels. It's massive caverns, rivers, seas, lakes, tunnels within tunnels. There is wind and air ciculation down there too.
And Green dragons can't just keep puffing out cholrine gas. They need to recharge and their breath disapates quickly.

magic jackal
#

Also if you knew they used Chlorine-like gas, how'd you miss that they did poison ?

strange current
#

Cause that’s corrosive

#

I think i may have gotten mixed up with game lore and actual chemistry with that

magic jackal
#

Even in irl chemistry it's considered a poisonous substance.

#

But regardless, they deal poison damage.

modest badger
#

In the underdark the dragons you're most likely to deal with are Sapphire and Deep dragons

strange current
modest badger
#

Their breath weapon doesn't linger.

strange current
#

“Deep dragon” is new to me so i’ma look that one up

strange current
modest badger
#

As mentioned, the underdark has that.

#

The Underdark isn't just normal cave systems as we know it. It's a bit more than that. Again- lakes, seas, rivers, massive caverns, magical fungus and air cirulations and so on.

strange current
#

But to what extent?

strange current
modest badger
#

But in general- No.
Greens are not known to work together to that extent. They would have competition. Their breath weapon doesn't linger.

strange current
#

I never said work together, it would make things easier but for the most part like on the surface one dragon is all it takes to wreck a city or town

#

Maybe “take over” was the incorrect word. More like “why don’t green dragons infest the underdark”

unkempt merlin
#

Yes there are some large caves on earth. The underdark is thousands of times more expansive than any cave system on earth

#

It goes many many miles down for one thing

#

And the average underdark cavern or tunnel is also massive compared to that of earth

strange current
#

And it has a crap ton of different peoples and creatures digging in various ways and directions for centuries

modest badger
#

Dragons can be pretty destructive. But it doesn't always turn out well for them.
At this point though this has gone beyond lore and more into 'What if' DMing.
Lore wise- Green dragons prefer forest terrains. Sapphire and Deep dragons are found more commonly in the underdark. The underdark is massive and has a whole host of terrifying things, from purple worms, elder brains, drow and so on- any dragon, Sapphire, Deep or elsewise that picked a fight with any of the others would likely be biting off more than they can chew (See 'Elder Brain Dragon'). Green dragon's breath doesn't linger- it's breathed and done.

strange current
#

Another question i have is can a creature with dark vision see a colored gas if it were to fill the darkness around them

modest badger
#

Not sure this is lore at this point.

strange current
#

Idk where else to ask. But it’s a question about dark vision

unborn comet
modest badger
strange current
#

Got it. That makes sense, i was indeed thinking of the “opacity” of the gas there

strange current
modest badger
strange current
reef coral
unborn comet
strange current
grim siren
shrewd bobcat
#

More like flavor

reef coral
reef coral
modest badger
#

It was errata'd if I recall

#

They used to see in shades of red, which was fun flavour.

grim siren
#

I'll go check my EE Player's Guide. Because that is neat.

modest badger
#

Elemental Evil version= shades of red
MPMM= shades of Grey

unborn comet
#

gives a new meaning to 'seeing red'

reef coral
#

I guess

grim siren
#

I shall once again weep on the Homogenization of Lore

#

Give me back my Drow that saw heat like the predator.

reef coral
grim siren
#

what does that even mean?

jagged apex
strange current
modest badger
#

Infravision was sometimes difficult to rule, but I have seen some really clever uses such as 'invisible' notes that was paper crushed thin in places so when wrapped around an limb or heat source, the letters would appear where the heat escaped first.

Or drow using public hot baths to hide their movements beneath the water and signing against each other's skin, so on.

#

I feel bad sometimes blending purple and deep dragons together. They used to be seperate, but pretty similar. Although Deep dragons as they are now are pretty different to what they used to be.

strange current
modest badger
#

I don't think in 5e 'Purple dragons' are given as an alternate name to Deep. That was a 4e change.

jagged apex
modest badger
#

They were seperate until 4e, then 5e has only brought back Deep (and pretty differently to past deep or purple dragons)

strange current
modest badger
#

FR wiki does, because 4e merged them,

strange current
jagged apex
#

while 5e does not mention them as purple dragons, they do not say anything that that makes the 4e info of them being considered the same necessary contradictory and thus untrue

#

though one could in theory interprate them as a sort of offshoot of purple dragons given the way they are described from the get go in fizban's "Making their lairs in the depths of the Underdark, deep dragons are nightmarish cousins of chromatic dragons. The warped magical energy of their subterranean realm gives them the ability to exhale magical spores that instill fear and scar the mind."

#

so if they are ment to be separate again in 5e, deep dragons could be purple dragons who have undergone such a change

#

but that is more so speculation, far as we know currently, canonically they are still one in the same as far as the published lore is concerned

modest badger
#

They are in 4e. Not mentioned in 5e. But I can see why the wiki decided to keep them merged, using all editions as sources for canonicity and applying the rule of 'most recent edition takes priority, but old lore stays until contradicted'.

reef coral
grim siren
#

I don't quite see how that is applicable to liking Drow's Infravision over bog standard dark vision

reef coral
#

Never mind

pallid owl
#

sup.

jagged apex
jagged apex
modest badger
#

But to explain-
Purple Dragons in AD&D appeared in Dragon Magazine #65 were hybrids of Red and Blue, and breathed pure energy. But they did prefer to live underground, although had entrances to the surface where they could also hunt. They returned in AD&D 2e in Dragon Magazine #284 as much the same, although they didn't have to be hybrids and instead could be Tiamat's experiments or by 'Tiamat's sister'. Dragon Magazine was a bit loose with lore. This is the Purple Dragon that appears in 3e's Dragon Compendium Vol 1.

Deep Dragons In AD&D were maroon-to purple- to black coloured underdark dragons that could change into a snake or drow (sometimes human) and breathed flesh corroding gas. In 3.5 this was much the same. They were explorers and treasure theives and often lived among humanoids. They like to eat 'sea food' (kuo-toa included)

4e merged the two, and had a dragon that enjoyed mental manipulations, exploring and eating sea food (Deep dragon) and breathed psychic damage (and had a psychic gaze attack). No shapeshifting abilities I can see though. Really only 'Purple Dragon' in name and colour.

5e took the psychic damage from 4e, the Deep dragons explorative nature (but hoardes secrets instead of treasures) and made them more mushroomy.

jagged apex
#

which to me makes sense given the explained fondness of fungus in the 5e incarnation and given the underdark often in place of most other plants you find fungus, some rare and some that are simply massive, even tree sized

#

so makes sense in 5e they kind of merge with fungus or as you said become more mushroomy

#

and seems that their psychic damage leans into more mind influencing fungus further merging these two elements of the dragon together

#

and from what i recall seeing along side their concept art, which honestly does much better justice i feel than the lone picture we got as an example in fizban's, they made their biology in terms of like their physical appearance make a bit more sense for a creature that would live in their preferred environments

#

to quote another part of their description in fizban's "Deep dragons’ black-and-gray hide is smooth like a salamander’s, and their eyes are pale. As they age, their spore breath causes fungi to bloom across their skin, especially around the head and neck. Their wings are attached to their front legs and can fold in close to the body, allowing deep dragons to easily maneuver through relatively narrow tunnels."

#

personally i feel the majority of the flack the creature gets is for what it is not compared to past incarnations rather than for what it is, as to me it is very interesting lore wise and it makes a good degree of sense within the context provided

modest badger
#

Yep.
But as you can see, Purple and Deep dragon were pretty different dragons 1e-3e. Similar habitats, slightly similar colouration, very different lore and behaviour.

4e's Purple Dragon is much more... well Deep Dragon. But wanted to merge the two to reduce the number of dragons while also bringing back the expanded chromatic dragon 'colour wheel' (Did the same with grey and fang dragons too). But flavour wise as also a very different dragon to either Deep or Purple prior (being psychic based and not 'pure energy' or 'flesh melting gas').

5e takes that dragon, changes the flavour a bit again, but makes no mention of 'purple dragons'.

This isn't really to argue with the FR wiki, but to explain their edition history and how really Purple Dragons and Deep Dragons were only 'the same' in 4e.

#

Really, Purple dragons never made it past 3e, and Deep Dragons had a drastic make over in 4e and again in 5e.

jagged apex
#

seems that they potentially omitted mention of purple dragons for the time being, should they wanna reintroduce them later in 5e's life cycle

#

plus to my knowledge the color coded names are rather arbitrary anyway as the dragons don't refer to themselves as such usually, is something made up by other races to refer to them as

graceful steppe
#

how do warlocks use per say "charisma" to gain martial mastery of a weapon

jagged apex
#

not to mention some also have non color based alternative terms, like greens being known as forest dragons, blue as storm dragons, blacks as skull dragons, ect...

jagged apex
graceful steppe
#

does it

modest badger
graceful steppe
#

how come

graceful steppe
jagged apex
#

is not really something rooted in lore, seems more rooted in mechanics

graceful steppe
#

why wouldn't it be rooted in lore if it exists as a whole pan of the warlock class

#

if not for lore reason why was it created in the first place

#

isn't it to anwser to a specific fantasy ?

jagged apex
modest badger
#

To give a shorter answer- I don't think there is any Lore we can actually quote to answer that question.

jagged apex
#

closest thing i can provide as a lore reason is the forgotten realms wiki article on the hexblade and the nature of the term in universe

graceful steppe
#

okey, thanks

modest badger
#

**The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. **Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.

jagged apex
#

which the way it is described is not necessarily using their force off will or "charisma" to gain this martial skill

modest badger
#

That's about it for the lore. You're using will because you're channeling your patron's will through that weapon. Hexblade's weapon is meant to emulate the force they made a pact with:

You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell—a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. **Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. **

jagged apex
#

the weapon is more so a medium or conduit for your will and the connection said will has to the supernatural natures of your pact and patron

#

like how thor's hammer was treated in the mcu to a degree if that helps

graceful steppe
#

well ye but not rly cuz thor has martial training and super physical abilities unlike warlocks

jagged apex
#

i am not gunna elaborate further to both keep it within the realm of being on topic and not to spoil it for those who may not have watched the thor films

#

again, you are not gaining the training via will/charisma, it uses that stat cuz that is where the power behind it comes from, you are effectively training yourself prior to making the pact or off screen, is largely up to interpretation but those are the two most logical and common ways for it to play out, but honestly we are riding the line a bit here between lore and mechanics to just try to explain it as well as possible

#

beyond your power going through the weapon, much like the hammer, the weapon has no connection to your will or powers, the power is you and or your patron

static trench
#

Time and time again, I've jokes about draconic bloodline sorcerers having a dragon as their parent. But wouldn't that just make them a half dragon and not whatever race they currently are? What are the mechanics behind this?

iron saffron
#

You don't need to have direct parentage to be of draconic blood. Much like aasimar and tieflings don't necessarily have one of their parents to be celestial or fiendish, respectively.

fringe terrace
#

How are Duergar generally regarded/received in more typical D&D settings? I'm going to be playing one in a Phandelver game, and I want to try to roleplay them in a way that makes sense. Like how are they generally viewed/regarded by common folk or people of other races? And how well do they get on with other types of dwarves? I've heard they tend to not get along.

modest badger
# static trench Time and time again, I've jokes about draconic bloodline sorcerers having a drag...

Hm, I tried to quote the Basic rules for sorcerer, but a hidden word seems to have triggered the bot.
Either way, if you look at the flavour text for sorcerer and draconic origin for sorcs you'll see it's not the sorcerer themself who has a draconic parent- it's a distant ancestor. And it doesn't have to be a draconic parent either. It could be some other means that infused draconic magic into their bloodline. Fizban's has some fun examples as well for that.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/sorcerer#DraconicBloodline

static trench
jagged apex
#

with what we know from what was reestablished in fizban's, it is more so the magic in you originates from dragons in some way, as dragons in dnd are inherently magical creatures, is kind of like planetouched races, but not really consistant enough to be considered a new race or species, it does not nessissarily have anything to do with actual reproduction

iron saffron
#

That's flavour.

modest badger
#

It'd likely be further back, although nothing stops a half-dragon from also being a draconic sorcerer.

jagged apex
#

from what i recall, half-dragons are normally sterile, and thus can't have children except by magical or otherwise unnautral means

#

but trade off is their life span winds up being up to twice that of the none draconic parent's species

modest badger
#

Mmm, that was mentioned in 5e lore. So I supposed the 'claimed to have a dragon parent' bit is meant to be taken with a grain of salt (or could be true- rarely).

" Most often, sorcerers with this origin trace their descent back to a mighty sorcerer of ancient times who made a bargain with a dragon or who might even have **claimed **a dragon parent."

iron saffron
#

Strangely enough in most editions dragons aren't powerful spellcasters, if at all.

jagged apex
#

given artificers and wizards treat magic like a science more or less, is possible something similar could have been done with said parent of that half-dragon that is similar to the likes of what we do in our world with segregate parents and such, or magical experiments as genetics basically stick really well to magic, especially when you are young or even in development

#

honestly, there is number of ways such bloodlines could come into being, possibly beyond the point of numbering

modest badger
jagged apex
#

plus historically some like steel dragons could produce with humanoids when in humanoid shape and effectively shut off their draconic dna, at least to my knowledge, ie they could control if they'd be attributing anything draconic to the child or not should they sire a child

modest badger
#

3.5 is the one that introduced Sorcerers and had draconic origins being the implied base (Least through Dragon Disciple, which was a Prestige Class that only applied to spontaneous casters like sorcs and bards, who were implied to have such magic due to distant draconic heritage) and all 3.5 dragons had spells AFAIK

iron saffron
modest badger
#

3.5 Sorcs:

Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories - just raw power that they direct at will. **Some sorcerers claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins. That claim may even be true in some cases - it is common knowledge that certain powerful dragons can take humanoid form and even have humanoid lovers, and it's difficult to prove that a given sorcerer does not have a dragon ancestor. **

This is why Draconic Origin is the 'SRD' or 'archetypal' sorcerous origin in 5e.

jagged apex
#

plus one could argue that being apex super predators, typically most dragons likely don't need to use magic in a fight against us mere munthrek (what is sited as being the dragonic term for human)

feral lintel
#

Heh. Munthrek

jagged apex
#

plus could have just as easily been more a mechanic side of things to where it did not feel necessary, though to my knowledge cases of dragons with magic, innate or otherwise, especially powerful ones might go back as far as 2e

#

you know with that one emerald dragon that basically freaked out when it saw a spelljammer

feral lintel
jagged apex
#

that was his name

#

pretty much, long since lost and twisted by the illithid's experiments to where basically their norms are a dark mirror of dwarven norms, hence them being so paranoid typically, even of each other, least that is what i understand to be the case

#

oh wait, just remembered they got a reprint in monsters of the multiverse, which is setting agnostic, but seems most of the stuff still tracks even seperate of any given setting quote "Duergar are dwarves whose ancestors were transformed by centuries living in the deepest places of the Underdark. That chthonic realm is saturated with strange magical energy, and over generations, early duergar absorbed traces of it. They were further altered when mind flayers and other Aberrations invaded and performed horrific experiments on them. Fueled by Underdark magic, those experiments left early duergar with psionic powers, which have been passed down to their descendants. In time, they liberated themselves from their aberrant tyrants and forged a new life for themselves in the Underdark and beyond." to quote their newer lore from "MONSTERS OF THE MULTIVERSE"

feral lintel
#

@fringe terrace Just in case you're missing this

jagged apex
#

granted that from the player character part, the npc ones later in the same book give further detail

#

to quote a small portion of it "Their personalities and abilities have been deeply impacted by their ancestors’ captivity and torment by mind flayers; they were infused with powerful psionic abilities but also a profound gloom. In some, this strain of sorrow inspires works of grand but melancholic beauty, while in others, it manifests as rage."

jagged apex
fringe terrace
#

Thanks for the info and pings guys

#

And yeah this all makes sense and is about what I expected, they're very grumpy compared to other races and are generally dour and distrusting

jagged apex
#

honestly, rereading it, is rather possible that duergar are not well known to even exist on the surface world, at least to anyone who is not a dwarf, as via their gods basically disowning the duergar's gods, they would definitely know what they are

#

granted i could be wrong, but far as i know is potentially the case far as i can tell, most of what is described is largely relating to duergar and others, rather than the otherway around

fringe terrace
#

It would make sense that most common people of the surface would probably not even be familiar enough with them to know what they are or have any predispositions about them

#

Aside from "that guy looks like a dwarf but also not like any dwarf I've ever seen, very strange"

jagged apex
#

at best they may just view them as a dwarf, which is technically correct, but not the kind of dwarf they are probably thinking of

#

as hill and mountain dwarfs are the ones humans and other surfaces races tend to interact with and know of to my knowledge

fringe terrace
#

Which a Duergar may take offense to, being lumped in with other dwarves who they feel abandoned their people

jagged apex
#

eh, i feel may more likely annoy them, but i doubt they would be offended, cuz part of that bad blood between them and other dwarves is do to them basically disowning thing and treating them as not dwarves anymore

#

at least from what i understand

fringe terrace
#

Yeah like they'd probably be annoyed but not like outraged by it, probably something they'd have come to expect

#

Especially if they're used to traveling the surface at that point

jagged apex
#

especially since despite dwelling in the ones known to dwell in the underdark, some dwarven cities also extend into the underdark, so interactions with them or other races down there would not been impossible for all we know

fringe terrace
#

My Duergar I'm playing will probably air on the side of neutrality rather than evil, but will still have a grumpy and distrusting demeanor.

jagged apex
#

sounds more like something to talk about in #character-discussion if you wanna keep sharing such details with people

fringe terrace
#

Alright

hot ferry
#

is there a house of menzoberranzan that ventures up to the surface more than others do? perhaps some guarded secret they keep from other houses?

#

just in the process of fleshing out future plans and details for my campaign, and so if there's a house that already does things like this, then i'll use that, but if not i'll come up with something

pure knoll
#

Why can't Volo die?

vital heron
vital heron
pure knoll
#

That makes sense

#

Wait, people actually buy his books?!

#

And you can become immortal just by being wealthy?! Why don't evil overlords take his route

modest badger
#

He also spent 100 years in an imprisonment spell, and has powerful people (like elminster) invested in keeping him alive.

pure knoll
#

Why do they want him alive?

modest badger
#

Mystra used him to hide some weave in if I recall, because no one would ever suspect him of being important.

pure knoll
#

Ah, she just chose some poor bard trying to make money to use, gods are so rude

sharp owl
#

Well no, she chose him because he's the last person anyone would suspect of being so important

#

It also had zero impact on him or his life

#

Well, other than the fact that Mystra (and Elminster, the only other person who knows) would be incentivised to keep him alive

jagged apex
#

basically, bit of being a weave anchor secretly, a little bit of connections, and more or less a bunch of dumb luck XD

pure knoll
#

Interesting, thank you!

jagged apex
sharp owl
#

Yeah, not every performer/charismatic individual is a bard

jagged apex
#

honestly, i feel most people probably assume him a bard part in do to his attire of choice in recent years and another part in his personality

#

cuz to my knowledge not once does the man play a musical instrument and his singing is a bit meh in my opinion, not what you would expect from someone that were to regularly dabble in music professionally

normal pewter
#

Realistically how much would somebody from Faerun know about Krynn and vice versa?

sharp owl
#

The vast majority of people would know absolutely nothing

#

Knowledge of other planes in general is incredibly uncommon
Knowledge of specific planes even more so

normal pewter
#

Yeah, thats what I figured from my reading/research

sharp owl
#

Travel between the various worlds of the material plane is incredibly rare

normal pewter
#

I have a Kender cleric that was sent to Faerun from Krynn when all the clerics disappeared during the Cataclysm, trying to figure out if he would know anything of this new world, all signs point to no. Though there are stories that involve Kender in the Forgotten Realms.

calm crest
#

The average inhabitant of Toril would probably have as good odds of correctly identifying a kender as they would at identifying a Nehwon ghoul. About the same number of both have ended up on Toril, but presumably most would assume that a kender is an odd halfling.

hot ferry
thorny helm
#

Could a half-tiefling drow exist?

iron saffron
#

Sure.

modest badger
# thorny helm Could a half-tiefling drow exist?

Although with tiefling it's more you are or your not.
Teiflings can be born to two non-tiefling parents who's tiefling heritage is dormant. So tiefling is more if those features are active or dormant and 'half-tiefling' isn't really a thing?

thorny helm
modest badger
#

This doesn't mean that an individual couldn't identify as such (especially if their tiefling heritage is important to them, regardless of whether the traits are active or dormant), but that it doens't quite work the same as other heritages.
It's a bit like trying to say 'I'm half-sorcerer. I can't do any magic though, but my mother is a sorcerer.' It's a hereditary thing, but can skip generations.

thorny helm
thorny helm
modest badger
#

Which edition is this for?

thorny helm
#

3e/3.5

#

"Physical Description: Tieflings look human (and are roughly the same height and weight as members of that race), except for one or two distinguishing features related to their unusual ancestry. Some examples of these features include small horns, pointed teeth, red eyes, a whiff of brimstone about them, cloven feet, or red skin. No two tieflings look alike. Tieflings reach adulthood at about the same age as humans but are longer-lived, with the eldest members of the race living to be 150 years old."

#

(I put this question in lore because i felt it was more fitting than legacy)

modest badger
#

Note that in 3.X tiefling only applies to humans with fiendish heritage (not that other races can't have their own fiend touched bloodlines, but 'tiefling' is for human fiend touched).
There definitely are drow with fiendish heritage from AD&D into 3.5

jagged apex
#

drow are still elves after all

modest badger
#

Fey'ri are more a specific bloodline

#

No, wait my bad, I'm thinking Daemonfey

#

But Fey'ri are sun elves and fiends

thorny helm
thorny helm
modest badger
#

Daemonfey being a specific subsection of such.

jagged apex
#

they are planetouched

iron saffron
#

Fey'ri were half-elf/half-fiend.
3.5E had a bunch of half-fiend variants.

jagged apex
#

the info cited from races of faerun, compares them as being to elves as tieflings are to humans and tanarukk to orcs

modest badger
#

"Fey'ri were born from cross-breeding between four nobles houses of sun elves with succubi in order to strengthen their lineage"

thorny helm
modest badger
#

From that same wiki page.

modest badger
thorny helm
iron saffron
jagged apex
#

either way would be a similar concept if any difference they would likely resemble fey'ri, though less fiendish looking in theiry

thorny helm
iron saffron
#

5E reduced the number of creature types (and sub-types).

jagged apex
#

also to be fair their history as being with sun elves specifically is part of their history in the realms, so if not playing in the realms, being associated with one kind of elf likely would not matter

modest badger
#

Fey'ri are from the FR setting

iron saffron
#

Looking at their statblock in my 3.5E Monster Compendium: Monsters of of Faerun right now.

jagged apex
#

either way, if half-fiendish elves can exist, and the same can be said of half fiendish humans, i see no reason a "drow tiefling" be impossible, if anything probably not doccumented if they do indeed exist

modest badger
#

Also in the Player's Guide to Faerun.

Not saying they don't exist, just explaining the very weird Lore/Rules technicalities in 3.5
Teiflings were human fiend touched.
Fey'ri are sun elf fiend touched (and FR specific)

jagged apex
#

so in theory may depend if Draegloths are born sterile like half dragons are, else, again, i see nothing in the lore that i am aware of at least preventing the possibility existing of a "drow tiefling" being a thing

modest badger
#

Fiend touched drow def exist, as mentioned in Dead Gods (2e) planescape module, when talking about visiting The Vault in the Greyhawk Setting:

Sure, tiefling drow exist, but most of the time they’re killed by their elf parents or taken away by their fiendish ancestor.

#

But that the term tiefling in 3.5 is specifically human only (and that the stats in 3.X for tieflings is only meant to represent human fiendtouched)

jagged apex
#

plus technically, aren't the drow that lolth manipulated via Wendonai at least in the realms already sort of similar enough to tieflings at least conceptually as being part mortal and part fiendish outsider? https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wendonai

modest badger
#

Yep, although if I recall that lore was introduced in 4e. So if trying to stay 3.5 specific, it gets a bit iffy. (And I don't think 5e even acknowledges this, so it's kinda 4e and FR only)

#

But again, def shows the concept has been official before

jagged apex
#

far as i know it is not contradicted so no reason to assume it does not apply, least far as i can tell

modest badger
#

I think it was in that there was a ritual that turned a lot of drow back into Ssri'tel'quisser dark elves or the like (except those with the fiendish heritage like poor drizzt apparently)
and then that was never mentioned again.
A lot of 4e lore for drow is just... not mentioned again. Ever. Or quitely retconned.

thorny helm
#

Ok ive looked more into it

modest badger
#

So while not specifically retconned, it is notably not mentioned in 5e.

jagged apex
#

to be fair if something is established not really much need to reiterate unless relvant to the situation

thorny helm
#

3.5 descriptions of toefling shows it would physicially just be a half drow with 1 or 2 i fernal traits wether it be hirns, hooves for feet, red eyes, redder skin, ect. It would have features to be closer to +3 LA

modest badger
thorny helm
#

Yea

#

I agree

modest badger
#

tiefling isn't a template, again it's you are or you aren't.

thorny helm
#

This is mostly 3.5 features and races

thorny helm
modest badger
#

It's the same in 3.5.
There is no 'half-tielfing'. Either you are planetouched, or you are not.

jagged apex
#

last i checked a tiefling's fiendishness in terms of appearance always varied

modest badger
#

Planetouched is a general word to describe someone who can trace his or her bloodline back to an outsider, usually a fiend or celestial.

The effects of having a supernatural being in one’s heritage last for many generations. Although not as dramatically altered as a half-celestial or a half-fiend, planetouched still retain some special qualities.
You can pass along this bloodline through generations and are tieflings or aassimar or so on- until you're not.

thorny helm
thorny helm
modest badger
#

It's not 'Well I'm .. 'full tiefling' because my father was a half-fiend, so my child is half-tielfing, and my grand child quater-tiefling' or what ever weird and terrible blood quantum rules we're using'.

You either have those qualities that mark you as planetouched... or your not planetouched.

jagged apex
#

a child born of a drow and a tiefling would likely be treated or viewed as a tiefling or in drow society almost certainly be reffered to as something neither drow or tiefling as it would effectively be something new entirely, kind of like a question i asked a while back but instead of drow it was dragonborn

#

tieflings are basically humans with less than half fiendish blood, if going via their genetics, but not all tieflings are concived biologically in the way one would sire a child

thorny helm
jagged apex
#

if you are of fiendish ancestory and are not half fiend, you are effectively a tiefling

#

at least as far as termonlogies of dnd are concerened

thorny helm
#

Ok ty

feral lintel
#

What is the Rod of Seven parts again? I rememver seeingit entioned here, but forgot the context

modest badger
#

Also, From Races of Faerun, so a bit FR specific, but then their was very little lore elsewhere in 3.5 for this:

The child of an outsider and another creature is a half-fiend, half-celestial, or half-elemental. If one of these half-blooded creatures has offspring with a humanoid, the result is usually a planetouched creature. The offspring of two planetouched is always a planetouched. Mixed-heritage planetouched of this sort take after one or the other parent (seemingly equal chances) but carry the traits of the other parent, which may show up in their own children. The offspring of a planetouched and a normal creature of its type (such as the child of a fey’ri and an elf) has an equal chance of being planetouched or “normal,” but carries the potential for planetouched children in either case. Sometimes the outsider bloodline becomes dormant for one or more generations, only to manifest many years later.

So same in 3.5- either it's active planetouched traits (so, Teifling) or dormant heritage (what ever the base race would be for that PC without active tiefling traits). There's no 'half' tieflings in that sense.
This does get into very awkward blood quantum mechanics at times, and ignores self-idenfication, and is more about ease of mechanics (no having to make stats for each possible mix), but it's like the 'I'm half sorcerer' example. You can have a sorcererous bloodline, but unless you have innate magical abilities active, you are not a sorceror.

iron saffron
feral lintel
#

Oh ic

iron saffron
#

It first appeared in 1E DMG and there was a module based around it.

jagged apex
#

supposidly if it was ever reassembled and used to free miska, the war between chaos and order would begin a new, as the queen of chaos, using miska as a figure head would be able to more or less organize the demons compared to how they otherwise act in the bloodwar currently

feral lintel
#

O h.

#

I heard it was a mcguffin in the new Vecna stuff, so it piqued my interest

jagged apex
#

no, if anything based on what has been shared publicly, it will be an important item in the context of the adventure

#

though if i had to guess, there is likely some previously unknown use that he aims to make use of if he indeed is seeking the rod

loud totem
#

Are fey eladrin born with souls of sentint beings, like genies?

feral lintel
#

They have souls

#

They're just elves in the feywild

loud totem
#

I specifically mean the fey type, not the humanoid type.

iron saffron
#

That's because they're native to the Feywild.

#

Creature type is a gameplay mechanic

#

Creature type changes with each edition (they even change within the same edition).

jagged apex
#

the fey typing is cuz literally they were constently living in the plane literally otherwise known as the Plane of Faerie, ie the realm of the fey, anything that originates or lives there long enough is likely gunna be a fey and would be weird if it wasn't

feral lintel
#

What about those new giants?

#

The troll ones

jagged apex
#

presumably being giants and having moved there, likely if anything they simply have not been there nearly long enough

#

else they still would likely be in the minority of inhabitants of the feywilds with the other non fey, making them as i said, kind of wierd

feral lintel
#

Ah remembered their names, Fensir

jagged apex
#

oh those are something entirely different and are not fey

feral lintel
#

Wait, yeah

#

Forgot they went to Ysgard and not the Feywild

jagged apex
#

you might have been mixing them up with the fomorians

feral lintel
#

Might have

#

I also think it was because of the art (lots of green)

jagged apex
#

the feywild is full of far more colors than just green XD

feral lintel
#

Yeah, but its always been green to me dndLol

jagged apex
#

well to be fair it's color pool is emerald green

#

is not like green is not common though, but in a realm where it is full of life, magic, and nature in abundance compared to the prime material plane, and being described in regards to color at least in 4e as "colors were more vivid", is reasonable that there are likely a lot of colors as common if not more so than green in that realm

summer latch
#

Silly question but how are dates written in the Harptos calendar? Like 9 Tarsakh, 1491 DR?

jagged apex
#

not sure of the order, but dates are a thing that is marked as they have historical records, holidays, ect...

#

given is specific to the forgotten realms, if nothing else, ed greenwood would likely be able to give you a definitive answer

red hinge
#

question, been readin FR on the fandom wiki and I'm wondering this, do helmites and tormites churches still have a rivalry canonically?

grim siren
grim siren
thorny helm
#

Would an Alhoon beat a Ulitharid?

sharp owl
#

That's not really a lore question

thorny helm
#

Not in game

#

Generally in lore

crude blaze
#

That’s still not a lore question

thorny helm
#

Then where should it be asked?

crude blaze
thorny helm
#

Ok ty

sharp owl
thorny helm
#

Ohhh ok

#

Ty

mossy tapir
#

is there any lore in regards to typical lifespan of fey type creatures? I am not specifically refering to playable fey races but fey in general. like if i grabbed a random fey from the feywild how long would it live for?

jagged apex
#

there is no real typical

#

some have lifespans comparable to humans, some longer, some shorter, and some out right biologically immortal

#

plus being part of an entire plane of existence that is infinite in scale and reflects in a way the stories told on the prime material plane, their lifespans could be infinitely varied, to my knowledge there is not a typical lifespan or solid average like there are for mortal races

red hinge
red hinge
jagged apex
red hinge
#

oh ok

jagged apex
#

even the most recent chronologically of adventures is technically not present day, just the latest point in the timeline we have confirmed

red hinge
#

that makes sense, thanks

modest badger
#

The Wiki has a certain writing style to keep it all past tense

modest badger
thorny helm
#

When kiaransalee killed orcus how long was it before the demon lord came back and pushed out the lower diety?

#

Also if a diety owned a layer of the abyss would they be a demon lord and a diety?

iron saffron
#

They're a deity.

thorny helm
#

Alr

#

Ty

iron saffron
#

Lolth is one of the few exceptions of being both a deity and a demon lord (probably because she was the latter first than retconned later as a deity).

feral lintel
#

was about to mention Lolth lol

iron saffron
thorny helm
#

Ok ty

iron vault
#

"Have I told you the tragedy of Darth Orcus the wise..."

jagged apex
#

and the main reason he was going by Tenebrous was cuz Kiaransalee bascially banned his name from being spoke and if i recall correctly destroyed all record of it at the time

#

interesting thing is orcus' deaths and rebirths may have robbed him of any chances at true divinity, but potentially having made it so he will always come back if ever destroyed, thus ensuring his goal inevitably, is a pretty good consolation prize should that prove to be the case

#

(i say may have, cuz i can't recall if it is actually something established or just a theory based on how he has managed to return from being destroyed in ways that otherwise would have been a final death)

graceful musk
#

I need some lore help, what would be considered some evil gods of lust? I'm looking for something along the lines of slannesh.

modest badger
#

Which setting?

graceful musk
#

Any I need inspiration

#

One that's sadistic and manipulative would be good.

jagged apex
iron vault
#

what do you want? (thats mostly flavor). generally, its accepted it's an ordinary beast.

jagged apex
#

the example of owlbear aside, the more recent dnd movie, "honor among thieves" shows this well with the tiefling druid named Doric

agile merlin
#

Plus, isn't there a druid ability that lets speak with animals extend to some monstrosities?

#

Is there any lore precedent for eladrin having half-elf children with humans?

modest badger
#

The difficulty there is that eladrin have been multiple different things over the editions.

#

in AD&D to 3.5 they were celestial/outer planar beings from Arborea who only resembled elves.
In 4e Eladrin was another term for high elves essentially.
in 5e you can have Fey eladrin and humanoid eladrin (both elves)

iron saffron
#

You should have the different types of eladrin throughout the editions pinned, Elgate, since it comes up at least once a month here...

modest badger
#

So in 4e- for sure. Because half 'high elf' was a thing. In 5e it's not unfeasible, but they don't have stats for them like they do for other human-elf mixes in SCAG.

#

Got quotes and such up there for more info. But yeah, comes up enough I know what to search for to link back to now.

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

like there is no special term of kind of being for specifically half eladrin

agile merlin
#

I keep forgetting the playable eladrin aren't mechanically fey

fossil venture
#

Speaking of Fey, my players are in the Feywild and they are encountering my custom Archfey that has a deer skull mask with huge antlers, and one of my players keeps referring to him as some variation of "Keerinose/Kyrinos/Kirinos" something like that. I've tried to google it, but I can't find any Dnd gods that match that. I presume it must be fey or druid related, but I haven't been able to dig up much.

Any thoughts of what she meant?

iron saffron
#

Which setting?

fossil venture
#

Any, mine is non-descript, and I'm not sure what reference she might be using to come to that conclusion

#

Well, my world is homebrew yes, but I don't know if she is referencing a DnD god that I'm not aware of

iron saffron
#

Did you ask your player?

fossil venture
#

No, I want the opportunity to reward them for being correct if I decide to incorporate it, but I have not enough information

#

and it was said verbally, so I'm only approximating with my atrocious spelling

iron saffron
#

There are numerous deities in the various D&D settings.

fossil venture
#

I'm scanning through the wikipedia for them as we speak lol, I was hoping the description would trigger recognition. I was able to find the Stag King for example, but as far as I can see, no name associated with them

#

Welp, I looked through the exhaustive list on Wikipedia and I just can't find anything resembling what she said :/

#

I think I might have found it, and I guess it had nothing to do with DnD Lore at all, my bad! It's celtic mythology! Cernunnos 🙂

feral lintel
#

Try looking at the DnD Lore Wiki

shell gale
#

in 5e, is there any spell in-game that would permanently erase or change a creature's memory?

#

I'm askng from a story standpoint so idk proper channel

#

not like "rules"

feral lintel
#

Not really lore, but maybe try checking out the enchantment spells?

iron saffron
#

#dnd-discussion would be a better place to ask. Lore doesn't deal with gameplay mechanics.

shell gale
#

fair sorry ty

#

wasn't sure if like "oh yeah in this book, bob the barbarian got permanant amnesia after he got hit with spell X"

iron saffron
#

Taps channel's sign:

Discuss WotC-published game settings, and the events and characters that shaped them. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're discussing: [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc.

shell gale
#

sorry hence me seeing if something similar happened in a book or to a popular character

#

apologies

wet flower
#

I don’t know if this is a lore or rules question but how likely would it be for a selunite cleric to be aware of the shadowfell?

jagged apex
#

seems more so a question for your dm, cuz i can see it both being likely and unlikely depending on the individual

wet flower
#

Okay will do

static trench
#

Is anyone familiar with the lore behind the Asmodeus and Mephistopheles tieflings in Baldur's Gate 3 specifically? I have a question

iron saffron
#

BG3 lore is contained within the game and not part of D&D lore.

#

If you want to know the general lore of tieflings since their first appearance in 2E Planescape check the FR wiki entry.

static trench
#

Ok thanks

modest badger
#

Those variants of tieflings also occur in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes so you can find some info there.

modest badger
# static trench Is anyone familiar with the lore behind the Asmodeus and Mephistopheles tiefling...

In general though Asmodeus Tieflings are treated as the 'standard' tiefling, due to different lore reasons based on the setting (In FR it's because Asmodeus did a blood ritual and 'adopted' a bunch of tieflings in order to boost his own power, but tieflings associated with other 'bloodlines' exist, including related to other layers of hells/ archdevils, or some 'feral' tieflings that couldn't.)

Abyssal (demonic) tieflings technically should exist lore wise, but never really made it into 5e except a failed UA.

stiff roost
#

Does any of the Forgotten Realms Lore Gurus know, what would happen if Tyr would die?

modest badger
#

Tyr did die

stiff roost
#

He did?

modest badger
#

It's okay, he got better.

stiff roost
#

Ah. Yeah, i thought he did so a 2nd time

iron saffron
#

A lot of FR gods died or merged with other gods because WotC decided for 4E to have less gods. All that was reverted in 5E FR.

stiff roost
#

I see... What I was more going fore, would there be some sort of reaction? Like someone rising up or new a foe unleashed?

iron saffron
#

Tyr has a presence outside of Realmspace so he wouldn't permanently die. Much like if Lolth was killed in Realmspace she will still be around since she has influence in other worlds.

@modest badger Do recall which book cited this?

stiff roost
modest badger
#

Ah 2e Faiths and Avatars!

Incidents that occur on one crystal sphere are not relevant to the dealings of that deity on another. Only incidents that affect a deity on its home plane of existence (usually in the Outer Planes) affect the power in all crystal spheres, and even then one has to be careful not to assume too much. So, beings who are multispheric who die in the Realms have merely involuntarily or voluntarily severed their divine connection to Realmspace. They are not dead, but they might as well be as far as the inhabitants of the Realms are concerned.
page 14, 'Multispheric powers or Is Tiamat Dead or Not?'

iron saffron
#

Thank you. I have that book but forgot which book had that citation.

modest badger
#

Explaining how Tiamat/ Takhisis could be dead in one place but still be active in another. Crystal Spheres don't quite apply to 5e anymore, but I'm sure there might be an equivalent of certain aspects dying but still working elsewhere.
Multi-universe settings like Spelljammer and Planescape can complicate things.

stiff roost
#

So as soon as the Multi-Verse comes into play, a god can't really die. Then what does die when you kill them at one place? Maybe im looking to deep into this....

iron saffron
#

Well, instead of being referred to as "crystal sphere" it's just a system like Realmspace or Greyspace.

#

Gods can die but permanently is harder to do. See the Dead Three.

stiff roost
iron saffron
#

Yes. Dead gods in D&D are harder to stay dead than Marvel Comics' characters (except for Uncle Ben).

stiff roost
#

Aaaaah. I know them

#

The dead three

#

Wasn't that a real game that happened?

muted kettle
#

Is lathander stronger than Selûne

storm dagger
#

Though it should be noted that the Bane of the Dawn War Setting and the Bane of Forgotten Realms are different beings.

storm dagger
muted kettle
storm dagger
#

No Selune is a Lesser God

muted kettle
#

It says she's a greater Deity in forgotten realms

storm dagger
#

Only in 4e

#

Which only had one rank of Deity

#

5e has 2 ranks Lesser and Greater.

#

In 3e and 2e she was Intermediate and 1e Lesser.

#

She used to be a Greater Deity, but gave up a good chunk of her power.

iron saffron
#

Yeah, 4E simplified the divine ranks with just (greater) deities and exarchs.

#

(I wasn't a fan of 4E lore for various reason...)

storm dagger
#

She is expictily weaker than Shar because she gave up power, where Shar did not.

muted kettle
storm dagger
#

To bring life to other Deities.

jagged apex
#

the forgotten realms wiki seems to currently, in 5e, rank her as a greater deity, same rank as shar

jagged apex
jagged apex
agile merlin
#

Judging by the map on Greyhawk Online, the Bakluni got off a lot easier than Suel during the Twin Cataclysms. Anyone know if this is touched on elsewhere in Greyhawk lore?

fluid atlas
#

How powerful is Mordenkainen? I’ve always imagined him as this incredibly powerful wizard, but (minor spoiler for CoS) ||when you encounter him as the Mad Mage, he just has the stat block of an Archmage with a modified spell list that’s pretty lackluster. Additionally, he was defeated by Strahd, who isn’t exactly the strongest of opponents in a 1v1 duel.||

modest badger
#

Greyhawk lore is a bit spotty and complicated by Oerth Journal lore which is semi official. But if I recall, the Suel start the twin cataclysims, and the Bakluni retaliated- and the gods were more behind them after the crimes the Suel had made against nature and magic and invoking the devastation, so were punished more harshly.

unkempt merlin
fluid atlas
unkempt merlin
#

In general he's an archmage who is equated to his fellow named archmages more or less

stiff roost
#

Is there a list of all gods with their corresponding divine rank? (Forgotten Realms)

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

especially given he is known to travel the multiverse during his various studies

storm dagger
#

He should be getting a full proper statblock come Vecna Eve of Ruin.

jagged apex
#

honestly, would only make sense if he is actually involved in the adventure, cuz vecna by verture of his divinity easily could out match him

#

but is very possible given the locations mentioned when describing the upcoming event/adventure

storm dagger
#

We are supposed to be teaming up with 3 Archmages. (Which makes the most sense as the three that meet up, Mord, Elminster, and Dalamar)

jagged apex
#

but this is getting outside the bounds of lore i feel

stiff roost
#

Im just going down the god rabbit hole. It doesnt stop. There are gods Ao has no power over? MTG is the same universe, does that mean eldrazi eat Toril for breakfast??? Agypten gods exist 2? Is earth out there somewhere?

#

And wtf is a sphere?

jagged apex
#

any outside of the forgotten realms setting

#

no

#

yes earth is a thing

#

a sphere is what effectively was a setting's solar system in 5e these are instead called wildspace systems

#

mtg and dnd universes are separate yet connected, how is rather unclear to my knowledge

#

assuming you mean the egyptian gods, yes they exist too in dnd

stiff roost
iron saffron
#

Ao is the overgod for Realmspace.

#

Crystal Sphere is the 2E Spelljammer term for a star (solar) system.

jagged apex
#

realmspace = the forgotten realms setting

#

anything any everything within realmspace is under lord Ao's authority and does not out rank him in power, not even close

iron saffron
#

Realmspace is the stellar system where Toril is located (Toril is the planet where Forgotten Realms takes mostly place on).

stiff roost
#

I see... Makes it a bit more clear

jagged apex
#

any multispherical deities, ie those worshiped in more than one setting such as lolth, he cans simply cut off their access to realmspace

stiff roost
#

That's what happend with Lolth right?

iron saffron
#

Gods from other systems can have a presence in Realmspace and they're referred to as interloper gods (they're not native to Realmspace)

#

Non-human pantheons are present in multiple systems.

stiff roost
#

And thats why it's so hard to kill them

iron saffron
#

Yes.

jagged apex
#

and others such as ones we know of from earth's history, but they are dnd's versions of them, they are not 1 to 1 with real world texts

stiff roost
#

Aaaaaah.

jagged apex
#

plus just sheer power, their ability to regenerated effectively, and that most mortals can't even harm a deity if they tried

stiff roost
#

Yeah, but I think if two gods of the same caliber had something going on, that one might die.

#

Well, but now they don't😂

iron saffron
#

What do you mean "same caliber"?

#

Divine power or portfolio?

stiff roost
#

Two gods that have equivelant power

#

Divine

#

I know that they beef it out if they have the same portfolio

iron saffron
stiff roost
#

Yeah I know them, have tab open right now.

#

Man the lore is amazing tho

#

I like it

stiff roost
#

Is that a diceroll?

feral lintel
#

Thats for 3.5e, when you fight/meet them i think

iron saffron
#

It's in the gods' stats in the 3.5E Deities & Demigods book.

#

Divine ranks affected their divine powers.

stiff roost
#

So every god has a number?

iron saffron
#

Yes.

stiff roost
#

Where can I find them?

iron saffron
#

For example, the Divine Blast had a range of 1 mile per Divine Rank.

#

The 3.5E Deities & Demigods book as well as the 3.5E Legends and Lore book

stiff roost
jagged apex
iron saffron
#

Same info.

jagged apex
#

though not all interactions are gunna nessissarily end violently

stiff roost
stiff roost
jagged apex
#

what about them?

iron saffron
#

The majority of PCs aren't going to meet a true god since they're in their private domain in the Outer Planes. If they do meet a god it'll be 99% likely to be an avatar/aspect.

stiff roost
jagged apex
#

far as i can recall, the dead three never struck each other down, not even bhaal, who literally took the portfolio of murder

stiff roost
jagged apex
#

paladins are not associated with gods by default in 5e

iron saffron
jagged apex
#

these days a paladin's divine magic comes from the same sort of source as gods themselves, just obviously to a lesser capacity, they channel it via their belief and will in what ever cause they swear themselves to

stiff roost
jagged apex
#

i believe it was in 3.5e they were leading paladins away from being tied to gods as a rule, but i could be wrong

#

i just now that these days there abiltiies as a paladin have nothing to do with a deity unless they choose to serve a deity like any other follower of said deity

stiff roost
#

I see. That is very intersting

#

Well, Ill go digging a bit more 🙂 Thanks for all the input

jagged apex
#

also, while similar priests and clerics are not one in the same, that is a mistake many can easily make

#

especially if you got in via more recent editions

iron saffron
#

As far back as 2E Planescape you didn't need direct connection for clerics and paladins to get their divine spells. A LG cleric in the Abyss would be cut off from their god and could only cast 1st and 2nd level spells (those spells were powered by their faith).

3E Deities & Demigods had a section on godless clerics who believe in an ideal or a force.

stiff roost
iron saffron
#

That was a 2E thing.

stiff roost
#

And a lore thing?

jagged apex
#

i would take priority in researching the lore for what ever edition of the game you play, as each edition is as much it's own continuity as it is a continuation, if not more so, and newer lore takes priority over past lore when ever the two contradict as far as if viewing it objectively from the lore when you are in situations where you have to look to past editions to fill in blanks or things that have just not been explored/handled yet in newer editions

iron saffron
#

Each edition changes/tweaks not only the rules but the lore.

jagged apex
stiff roost
stiff roost
jagged apex
#

eh, depends what edition you are playing, as anything that contradicts the one you are focusing on for prupsoes of play is not really part of that lore unless you as GM make it so for your own table's games

#

but fact is some thing for one reason or another are not always addressed right away if at all in newer editions so for the info often you have two choices, and the lore based and objective one of those is looking back to past editions and using it to fill in the blanks until we potentially get new information

#

else you have to make it up or just act like nothing exists beyond what is detailed, which is kind of flawed as some things are still refferenced or eluded to in a way that confirms their existance as still being a thing but not beyond that

stiff roost
#

Well to be honest. Im just picking what makes more sense, when something conflicts.

jagged apex
#

is usally just easier to learn about the edition you get into and working from there

stiff roost
#

But I def see your point.

jagged apex
#

as this channel is for talking about the published lore, the continuity/continuities put out by wizards of the coast and the like

stiff roost
#

Aaaaah, okay got it.

jagged apex
#

anything specific to your own games would often fall into one of those two earlier mentioned channels, including things like stitching lore from different editions and sources into a singular and consistent continuity

stiff roost
#

Yeah, that was not where I wanted to go with this conversation. I just wanted to know what's the official lore. Yk learn the rules before you break them. In this case it's lore.

jagged apex
#

lore=/=rules

#

always worth remembering

stiff roost
#

Thanks again ❤️

jagged apex
#

the published lore is more like the norm or status quo

#

if you are a fan of DC or Marvel comics, is a very similar concept with alternate universes being basically any one's one take on a setting or continuity or their own personal games and the lore they use for it

#

the published continuity is effectively the prime/main/default version

#

being effectively the history of those settings and those in them

#

honestly i find it easier to understand if you happen to already understand the concept of multiverse theory

#

especially since these days they are putting more focus on dnd's multiverse for this current era of 5e's life cycle over any singular setting

iron saffron
#

Unlike 2E and 3E where TSR and WotC, respectively, churned out a lot of lore by publishing a lot of sourcebooks (especially DM-centric splat books), modules/adventures, novels, and comics that expanded the game/campaign settings' lore, WotC had made a concerted efforted to have as little official lore for 5E with less published books and barely any novels. This is because WotC has put most of the work of lore (and rules...) on the individual DMs.

jagged apex
#

well one may more so say encourage freedom, the lore is little when compared to past editions but is not like they are intentionally going for as little as possible

#

further talk of the topic if feel would be outside of lore technically

#

though i will say, if wanting to know as much as possible about the forgotten realms, it's creator, ed greenwood, is rather open about answering fan's questions about the lore how ever they may choose to reach out to him as he even has said he continues to work on his sort of own/master version of the realms daily, which honestly probably makes it easy when ever wizards of the coast want to work with him to expand the published lore on the setting a bit more

#

honestly if you are gunna learn as much as possible about the lore, as far as settings go, forgotten realms is to my knowledge one of the easiest and will in the process also familiarize you with certain norms that often are the same across multiple settings, which is kind of why often when we link stuff here it often is the forgotten realms wiki

#

at least that is how i learned most of the lore i know, a lot of the setting agnostic lore i learned from/while learning about the forgotten realms, even before the setting agnostic books started coming out

iron vault
#

I am trying to find the forgotten realms reference to 'round earth theory'. (parodizing flat earthers, because toril is flat...) anyone know where it is? I know I read it somewhere...

#

It was an aside somewhere, just a casual line, but i cannot for the LIFE of me remember the source.

#

something along the lines of "dismissed as the whimsy of madmen"...

iron saffron
#

Toril is a spherical planet.

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge the whole world being flat or round is not really a thing in dnd, much less the forgotten realms

#

in fact, though i could be wrong, i believe is just accepted usually on most worlds these things are round

iron saffron
#

I've never encountered any D&D worlds being flat.

jagged apex
#

same

#

nor even individuals believing or suspecting otherwise in the lore

modest badger
#

In Spelljammer, The Spectre in Greyspace and H'Catha in Realmspace were flatworlds least in 2e

#

And there were a few other flatworlds throughout spelljammer

#

But yeah Toril is spherical

iron vault
#

sadly, i know this reference exists, and i will resume my hunt of it.

#

ah! found it!

#

it was in Neverwinter Nights 2, and I had it backwards.

#

adn the actual 'proof' was burned off

fathom rapids
#

what is the lifespan of a fire giant?

iron saffron
feral lintel
#

... wait, they have the same lifespan as a dwarf?

iron saffron
#

Well, they coincidenatally look like big dwarves...

feral lintel
#

I have some questions for Annam...

static trench
#

(Eariler I asked this question in regards to Baldur's Gate 3, but I believe this can go for standard DnD as well. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
I learned that Mephistopheles Tieflings have strong connections to the element of fire. But isn't that the Asmodeus Tieflings' sort of claim to fame? What are the main differences between the two besides the deities they're tied to/descended from?

agile merlin
#

Ya boy Annam getting sued for plagiarism

feral lintel
#

Not plagiarism, more like about his relationships...

agile merlin
#

I think giants are older than dwarves tho, actually

feral lintel
#

Asmodeus tieflings are also the PHB version of the tiefling

agile merlin
#

Also, pretty sure Oerth is actually geocentric, touching back at the flat Toril thing

feral lintel
#

There used to be more types, but Asmodeus did some trolling and make them all related to him

agile merlin
#

Just a little bit

feral lintel
#

Wrong section

static trench
feral lintel
#

Yeah, tieflings of other archdevils has slightly different appearances and traits

#

Different spells, etc

static trench
#

I see
What made me wonder is that (without getting too much into BG3) You can choose from Asmodeus, Meph, and Zariel tiefs

agile merlin
#

Maybe think of it this way, Mephistopholes is the archdevil wizard, so he's probably the master of fire spells
But Asmodeus is the god of hellfire (and he brings you...) and so master of all the stoves of the underworld

static trench
feral lintel
#

*Nine Hells, not Underworld lol

agile merlin
#

Eh

feral lintel
#

Fairly sure thats a whole notha area

agile merlin
#

There's nowhere in the multiverse just called the Underworld, is there? If anything, it's just an umbrella name for all the lower planes

static trench
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I mean I kinda figured Y'Allda meant the nine hells anyway

fathom wagon