#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 31 of 1

jagged apex
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if nothing else, other than a dark day in torl's history, his fate and actions that led to it are a causionary tale

pine reef
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there a list of heavy hitters aka level 20s in faerun around the end of the 15th century towards 16th? From my reading it appears most of the big legendary adventurer figures are gone.

jagged apex
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eh, unless enough time has passed to where they have died of old age, is more likely they just have not had more content written about them, as we know for a fact the likes of drizzt and elminster are still around today as are some of their respective companions/allies

iron saffron
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Most of the epic characters are Chosen of Mystra.

jagged apex
jagged apex
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though since adventurer is listed as an occupation, is also just as likely many have simply changed professions

heavy heron
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Anyone familiar with the Exandria Setting?

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Specifically Port Damali and the Marid situation.

inner trellis
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Is there a lore reason why Waterdeep and Baldurs Gate don't have a road connecting them like the High Road or the Trade Way?
Or is the distance simply too long to bother with anything besides ships?

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(Oh, and also @ me please if you have an answer)

heavy heron
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Its a consequence of the map being drawn and redrawn multiple times.

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They even kind of tried to give it an in game reason after the spellplague, in that some landmarks had moved and shifted.
@inner trellis

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In the Tyranny of dragons map, The Trade way goes SE and then the Coast way goes SW back to waterdeep.

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On the Mike Schley map, this is depicted as just a trail that goes through the Troll Claw mountains.

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I can DM you pictures if that easier.

sharp owl
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You can post links to images here, as long as there's context

keen swallow
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How would a Tabaxi orphan be named? Is there a name for clanless Tabaxi, similar to "Snow" in game of thrones for b*stards?

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We're going to be running a campaign where we all of our party start out in the orphanage of a city

sharp owl
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@keen swallow Please don't attempt to circumvent the language filter
Also note that bastard isn't a censored word here (for use when discussing the child)
Also also note that being an orphan isn't the same as being born out of wedlock, which is what the afformentioned term refers to

keen swallow
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Noted, sorry

sharp owl
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A clanless tabaxi reasonably wouldn't follow the tabaxi naming convention

keen swallow
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That could be an interesting hook, given a more "normal" name and then having the reactions of other Tabaxi he meets once outside the city

eager bay
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Was there ever a character in forgotten realms lore who committed genocide, and started a major war?

sharp owl
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Most likely, the setting has history dating back thousands of years

crude blaze
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I think that said situation was pretty specific to the Mighty Nein campaign

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(Oh wow, it’s been like 8-9hrs, sorry for the ping)

heavy heron
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Yeah, I found a CR server and someone explained the situation to me.

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No Problem, in regards to ping.

tardy wasp
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Still learning about the variety of deities populating the spiritual dimensions of the Forgotten Realms, and dang, it seems like there's a lot of moon gods. Selune, Sehanine, Eilistraee, Sharindlar, and even Malar sorta. How exactly do each of these divinities represent the lunar body of the Realms?

grim siren
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So while many gods might use the moon for their symbology look at what the gods are actually representing and not to mention they are mostly from completely different Pantheons

Selûne (Faerûnian): The moon, stars, navigation, navigators, wanderers, questers, seekers, and non-evil lycanthropes

Sehanine Moonbow (Seladrine): Dreams, death, travel

Eilistraee (Dark Seladrine): Beauty, dance, freedom, hunting, moonlight, song, swordwork

Sharindlar (Morndinsamman): Fertility, healing, romantic love, the moon

Malar (Faerûnian): The Hunt, and evil lycanthropes

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Also it bears to mention that Sehanine is an aspect of Selûne.

magic jackal
grim siren
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You are correct!

iron saffron
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We don't speak of the 4E FR lore changes...

jagged apex
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and said 3rd party one seems to have a very different take compared to the one from official materials in the past

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is there any lore out there on Sixin? the deity, historically speaking, of the Xill? i can find barely anything on them

pine reef
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Are demons souls of mortals too?

white ravine
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Most. There's three types of demons: Obyrith, Tanar'ri, and Loumara

Tanar'ri are made of mortal souls

iron saffron
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They're created by the Abyss itself. Orcus and Demogorgon were once mortals.

pine reef
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Thank you both. I've been searching Shard of Pure evil and noticed you two spoke about it in the past. If a fragment of the shard found its way into Faerun what lengths would Asmodeus go to obtain it from the hands of a mortal?

white ravine
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If a fragment got into faerun, at least a few MILES around the thing would be rife with abyssal corruption within a few days

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We dont know how big the thing is, but given how the one shard managed to make the entirety of the Abyss and is still going, it'd be a 20 way rat race for everyone in the multiverse to get a hold of the thing before someone else does

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Mortals would want it destroyed to save themselves
Celestials would want it captured to study it
Devils would want it to weaponize it
Demons would want it to reclaim it
Slaadi would want it to abuse it
Primus would want it to purify it

etc etc

iron saffron
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Asmodeus has a sliver of the Shard of Ultimate Evil (it's part of his Ruby Rod).

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The Shard is drilling into the Abyss, creating new layers, hence infinite layers of the Abyss.

white ravine
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It'd likely devolve into a moshpit of swords and sorcery within the week, with everyone across the cosmos present

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For Asmodeus himself, he'd likely pull hundreds of hidden stops out at that moment to launch a full on crusade to get the thing in one piece.

iron saffron
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I would say that the Shard is part of the reason for the Blood War.

pine reef
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Aren't there rules that prevent entrance of demons and devils into Faerun without summoning apart from a few races like Erinyes?

white ravine
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Correct, but Asmodeus is not one to twiddle his thumbs so he's likely prepared

pine reef
jagged apex
iron saffron
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The rule of thumb is that fiends need summonings or gates to enter the Material Plane.

white ravine
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Decade long hidden cultists ripping pit fiends from hell, hundreds of owed souls being cached in and warping into barbed devils, infernal bastions outside of hell ripping open rifts on spelljammers

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It'd be like tuesday in the blood war, except this time on mortal soil.

jagged apex
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part of the reason the night hags of the lower planes have and run the soul trade is cuz both demons and devils have interest in souls cuz for one reason or another the souls that wind up in their repsective planes naturally are to difficult to get to turn into the kind of fiend they want, for different reasons, making those neutral evil souls an ideal resource

pine reef
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What about Celestials themselves? Can they manifest willy nilly in Faerun?

jagged apex
pine reef
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Or they're restricted like devils/demons?

jagged apex
white ravine
jagged apex
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celestials, or at least angels specifcally opperate in too much of an extreme and their standards are too different from mortals to allow them to have any sort of frequency on the prime material plane

white ravine
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That, and they're suckups to their gods, so they often won't go without a task at hand.

pine reef
jagged apex
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dealing with the prime material plane and the beings of it, requires shades of grey and nuance they just are not trained for, again angles opperate in extremes

pine reef
jagged apex
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they could wipe out an entire city by accident as colladeral and they would have done nothing wrong as the souls would go on to the natural after life

white ravine
# pine reef Please explain the risk to them.

IIRC, where demons and devils can die outside of their home planes and respawn back with no problems, angels work the opposite. If they die outside of their home plane, that's curtains for them. If they die within however, they come back.

jagged apex
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i literally never heard any case of that being the case for angels in any published materials

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they like other extra planar beings would reform on their home plane if killed outside of it

iron saffron
pine reef
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Demons and Devils yes can only be killed in Hells or Abyss permanently respectively.

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I see, so goes the same with Celestials, thanks.

jagged apex
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same goes for any other extra planar being and their respective home plane, historically speaking

pine reef
jagged apex
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mortals are the only ones without that luxary which makes them useful sometimes in extra planar adventures to the respective forces

jagged apex
iron saffron
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Feywild is not part of the Outer Planes, it's more akin to an echo of the Material Plane.

jagged apex
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yeah but is not technically part of the prime material plane though, but far as i know much like the inner planes they could potentially opperate the same, but to my knowledge we never really got any examples, so far as i am aware nobody knows

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life in the fey historically can be caused if enough tales of something across the various worlds of the prime material plane, so is possible so long as those tales that correlate to those beings remain in the public consciousness and are still told frequently enough they could reform if slain, but honestly to my knowledge this would all be hypothetical

pine reef
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Since lore is murky, it would be reasonable to say if they're not killed in the Feywild they can resurrect same as any other outsider?

jagged apex
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shrug i'd if having to operate with out an official answer in the lore, would presume so long as the stories associated with them exist widespread enough, they would come back, especially if we were to talk of ones from the domains of delight, which in 5e is basically the complete opposite of the domains of dread in the shadowfell, and we know the lords of those domains, who act as prisoners too, come back if slain, so presumably that would be a shared trend with the counterpart in the feywild, but again that is speculation based on what is known, not a definitive conclusion, more of a theory

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and i would hesitate to say resurrect, i feel with such cases at least for extra planar beings, known as outsiders in past editions, the term "reform" or "respawn" is slightly more accurate/fitting

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cuz part of the reason for this property of extra planar life is cuz in those planes, do to the metaphysical nature of them, their body and soul are effectively one in the same, were as on the prime material plane, for most mortals our souls and bodies are 2 distinct things that can be separated from one another, for extra planar life, the way i understand it, there is no difference between the 2 for them unlike us

iron saffron
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Raise Dead and Resurrection didn't affect outsiders in 3.5E

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Outsiders don't have souls like mortals of the Material Plane since they're made from their planes of their origins. They have essences though.

pine reef
iron saffron
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Souls goes to the afterlife in the Outer Planes (typically to their gods' domains)
Outsiders' essences are made from their planes of origin.
Elves have spirits (they typically are reincarnated rather than go to the afterlife).

dusky jasper
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What novel would you recommend that is canon rich in lore instead of reading guides/manuals? I am very experienced with fantasy/rpg's but very new to the world of Dungeons and Dragons and it is amazing. Especially experiencing Baldur's Gate 3. Any canon lore on dragons is much appreciated. I have the Draconomicon and the Player's handbook and am looking forward to Fizban's Treasury of Dragons. Canon novels on dragons is much appreciated!

plain needle
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Is there any god, or powerful being, that is able to mimic the powers of multiple other gods?

signal perch
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essence is what the soul is made from i suppose and is what some soul hunting creatures eat

modest badger
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Souls and Spirits and such in D&D is a bit vague as it honestly depends on which edition you're using.
AD&D Elves had spirits, not souls, but 3.X and on there was no such distinction.
Dieties and Demigods (1980):

AD&D assumes that the anima, that force which gives life and distinct existence to thinking beings, is one of two sorts: soul or spirit. **Humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and half-elves (those beings which can have a raise dead or resurrection spell cast upon them) all have souls; all other beings that worship deities have spirits. **This latter group includes (but is not limited to) elves, orcs, half-orcs, and the other creatures specifically mentioned in the NON HUMANS' DEITIES section of this work. The DM may decide on a case-by-case basis whether other creatures have spirits and worship deities; the only parameter is that monsters with spirits must have at least on intelligence rating of Low. Please note that the following system is only a suggested one. Individual Dungeon Masters should use a different system if they find this one unsuitable.

But elsewhere in the editions spirits and souls can be used pretty interchangeably.

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But in 5e spirits do seem different to 'souls' in usage: For example in 5e, a Familair is a 'spirit'

You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel.
Spirit guardians summons spirits. Talk with dead speaks with the Spirit not the soul:
This spell doesn't return the creature's soul to its body, only its animating spirit.

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in 3.X Creatures like outsiders and elementals had souls, but their souls and physical form were one:

**Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. **When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
(Same goes for Elemental).

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In 5e, any creature that can be affected by a revivify/raise dead or true rez has a soul- including constructs and undead curiously.
There isn't really any distinction for outsiders either in 5e yet. Feinds are the only ones who don't die outside their native plane and reappear back in it, so presumably all other 'outsiders' including celestials and such can die as normal and be raised as normal, meaning they now have souls same as everyone else. But that is a mechanical inference. (Although fiends have always been one of the only outsiders that do not truely die outside their plane. This was never a blanket truth for all outsiders)

modest badger
jagged apex
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likely cuz they are the extra planar beings that more often than not people are facing off against

jagged apex
modest badger
# jagged apex likely cuz they are the extra planar beings that more often than not people are ...

Perhaps, but it's also just been their thing since AD&D. The 'Extraplanar/Outsiders don't die outside their plane' thing is more often people misremembering summon rules from older editions.
A summoned creature doesn't die when slain, but poofs back to their realm. However if an outsider reaches another plane in any other fashion, they will die if slain (except fiends, who were special).

jagged apex
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well to my knowledge there is no real reason for this to be something specific to fiends, and i have consistantly in the fandom, including from the likes who very deeply study the lore of dnd, that this is a trait of extra planar life in general, which just makes more logical sense, since to my knowledge no specific explination is given why this would be exclusive to those of the lower planes

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like not once do the likes of AJ pickett mention it being exclusive to fiends, and he has a very good track record with accuracy in his coverage of dnd's lore and history

modest badger
# jagged apex very much disagree, but not gunna get into an argument over this

I will point out this isn't lore I necessarily agree with, just that is the case for 5e due to mechanics.
DMG p.24 "Bringing Back the Dead"

When a creature dies, its soul departs its body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature's deity resides. If the creature didn't worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment. __Bringing someone back from the dead __means retrieving the soul from that plane and returning it to its body.

(...)

A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and might refuse to return on that basis.

Revivify

You touch a creature that has died within the last minute. That creature returns to life with 1 hit point. This spell can’t return to life a creature that has died of old age, nor can it restore any missing body parts.

Raise Dead and True/Rez have rules about no undead, but not constructs. As such, they can be brought back from the dead, which means they have souls per the lore on DMG p.24

jagged apex
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mechanics and lore do not always go hand in hand

modest badger
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Because I have looked. I have cited.

jagged apex
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there is a good amount of things that in the lore that flat out do NOT have rules or mechanics

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all i am saying is you are the only one i have heard or seen mention or imply it is exclusive to fiends in the lore, key word being the lore, which is not always reflected via mechanics

modest badger
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These are two different points

jagged apex
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but if we still disagree, let's leave it there and agree to disagree, as i'd rather not this risk devolving into an argument

modest badger
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For fiends and outsiders I have previously gone through the books and found the citations for fiends not dying outside their plane. But nothing for outsiders or extra planar beings as a whole. I found a few things on Modrons and some other beings who have specific lore on what happens on when they die and where. I went through all that up there.

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For 5e and souls, I refer to the mechanics and the DMG p.24.

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These are seperate points.

jagged apex
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given the nature of the setting this potentially could get addressed in planescape, given all the extra planar life featured there that is not native to the outlands, which comes out tomarrow so might as well wait and see if we get any new info on the topic

modest badger
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I just get tired when I try to find sources and the rebuttal is 'well I have no sources but I disagree'

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Disagree with what, the sources have cited? The reading of the sources? Please by all means point out if you think I have misread something. Or if you have another source that adds something or contradicts something, chuck that in there I'd love that because that's fascinating when the lore has new twists or contradictions.
But don't 'But a youtuber said-' me.

sharp owl
modest badger
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And the point about mechanics and lore is a valid point. Because mechanics sometimes do contradict lore, because game conveniences don't always match narrative.

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But it's just a weird point in 5e that it says 'to bring a creature back from the dead you recall it's soul' and the spells that bring creatures back from the dead also affect constructs and even undead at times. Like that is very weird.

sharp owl
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But Elgate is correct; to resurrect a creature its soul must be willing and able to return. If a soul cannot return, it cannot be revived. And therefore a creature without a soul cannot be revived because how do you return that which never existed?

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This isn't even mechanically based, it's right there in the lore part of the DMG (Chapter 1: A World of your Own)
Bringing Back the Dead

A soul can’t be returned to life if it doesn’t wish to be.
You don't return a body back to life, you return its soul. So anything that can be returned back to life has a soul

modest badger
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And it does get messy. Like Will-o-Wisp are undead, and their flavour text is:

Consumed by Despair. Will-o'-wisps **are the souls **of evil beings that perished in anguish or misery as they wandered forsaken lands permeated with powerful magic.
So.. if it dies and you cast Revivify on it...???

sharp owl
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It'd presumably have a choice as to whether it wants to come back as a Will-o'-wisp or not come back at all and wait

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Because while you don't bring the body back, the body still acts as a conduit to the soul and a form of limiting factor

white ravine
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Revivify IIRC explicitly works without consent which is a nightmarish concept

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And as for wisps, I doubt its an instant process especially given the circumstances needed to make one

sharp owl
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It doesn't explicitly do that

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It doesn't reitterate requiring the soul to be free and willing to return

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But it also doesn't state that it overrides the general rule that a soul must be free and willing to return

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Therefore it doesn't override that rule

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So if we're using RAW as a framework for interpreting lore, it doesn't actually change anything about souls ability to return

white ravine
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That isnt really a general rule, the spells themselves specify whether or not they have to say they can choose to return

sharp owl
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It is a general rule, I quoted it above including a link to the section it's found in

modest badger
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But is odd that Raise Dead and true/rez specificy that again, but revivify doesn't. Which is a case where mechanics and lore get weird. Because 'Rules as Written'... Myabe Revivify doesn't. 'Lore as written' it's a blanket thing that you call the soul from the astral plane/final resting plane and a soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be,

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And if there even is a distinction between 'Rules as written' and 'Lore as written' here.

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Because are they not both?

sharp owl
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If we take a heuristic view of lore and RAW, which I don't believe anything says we shouldn't, and view them as parts of the same whole except when they explicitly contradict (at which point we can simply fall back on RAW being a meta abstraction), then nothing about revivify says it overrides the statement that a soul must be free and willing to return. It just doesn't reitterate it

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And from a rational perspective, if I put a sign on my restaurant door that says "no more than 1 free refill" and then each menu item but one has a note that says "includes 1 free refill", that one item doesn't suddenly have unlimited free refills just because I didn't reitterate it there. The sign on the door still applies

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This obviously assumes a setting where the statement in the DMG applies

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If we translate this to a setting where that statement doesn't apply, then things get weird. But I'm not sure of any setting where that sentiment isn't baked in anyway

modest badger
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This little lore change has raised so many questions for me. Again it's not that I necessarily like or approve of this lore, it just is. And there's questions now like what if I cast revivify on a wisp, or can I cast Ressurect on the pool of melted ice water that used to be a simulacrum, can I revivify the steel defender instead of using the artificers smith tools to revive it, what does this mean for Eberron's lore and the existential question surrounding Warforged?

It does directly contradict older lore and it doesn't always make sense. And yet it is.

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And that yeah, Mechanics and lore are intertwined in D&D.
Play an AD&D game, elves mechanically cannot be resurrected. The lore for why came after, and supports the mechanics. It's because they have 'spirits' not 'souls'.

Play a 3.5 game and constructs can't be brought back from the dead because the mechanics for their creature type says so, and that is also the lore:

Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.
(3.5 SRD, Types & Subtypes, Construct)

white ravine
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Frankly a lot of the minutiae of resurrections in 5e is weird because 5e doesnt take the time to elaborate beyond sweeping blanket statements

night frost
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After somewhat coming back to DnD due to BG3, I am once again frustrated with the lore of the elves.

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Mainly Forgotten Realms elves.

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As that setting is the one I'm most familiar with.

grim siren
# dusky jasper What novel would you recommend that is canon rich in lore instead of reading gui...

Here are a few recommendations since there are hundreds of books set in the Forgotten Realms (World of BG3)

Homeland: By RA Salvatore - This is the start of the 39 book saga known as the Legend of Drizzt with out a doubt one of fantasy's most iconic Dark Elves for better or worse.

Evermeet Isle of the Elves: By Elaine Cunningham - This is basically the Silmarillion of the Forgotten Realms and details Elven Lore going back 30,000 years.

Spellfire: By Ed Greenwood - What happens to a simple Barmaid when she suddenly gets access to the raw magic of the Weave.

Canticle: By RA Salvatore - This is a book on Clerics, it has dragons, dungeons, elves, vampires, ancient monasteries and more. This is Book one of The Cleric Quintet

Elfshadow: By Elaine Cunningham - Arilyn Moonblade is one of the two best assassins in the Realms. Maybe both. From Cormyr to Waterdeep, Harpers are being murdered. The trail leads to the half-elven adventurer, Arilyn Moonblade. Is she guilty, or is she the next target?

Unclean: By Richard Lee Byers - This book details the land of Thay and Red Wizards. A nation ruled by necormancers. Some of the events of this novel are covered in the movie Honor Among Thieves, but these novels go into all the intricate plots the movie did not have time too.

night frost
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The Last Mythal trilogy would have been nice if it hadn't been effectively undone in 5e.

grim siren
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Undone?

night frost
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The retreat was supposed to have come to a close with the retaking/refounding of Myth Drannor, but we all know how that ended.

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I think we're back to Evermeet and Evereska being the only major purely elven realms left.

grim siren
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Semberholme, is where the Coronal and many of their subjects escaped too before the destruction of myth drannor 2

dusky jasper
last scaffold
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I think there the Year of Rogue Dragons series touches on dragons.

night frost
jagged apex
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am mainly asking cuz i kind of wanna make a lore friendly oneshot heavily featuring the xill and am trying to find info to make a sort of "greater/queen xill" for lack of a better term, or would in 5e given they cement the supposed connection to the wizard Kerpatis, would a theoretical greater member of the xill or even queen likely have powers based on those of Kerpatis, rather than Sixin?

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cuz also have not been able to find much on kerpatis regarding the kind of powers he had or the magics he wielded other than being attributed with the creation of a book called the pyronomicon

jagged apex
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and of course the speculation in universe that comes with it

pseudo wind
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So since celestials in 5e are depicted as Lawful Stupid robots who don't really do anything in the Material Plane, and since devils are the ones holding the demonic hordes at bay, what exactly is the point of them existing? I have never seen a celestial do genuinely Good things in any 5e material. Do they just exist to showcase how inept cosmic Good is?

jagged apex
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they are not "lawful stupid robots" that is at beast a poor summary

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their main roles though are to serve the gods, mainly those of good

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and cosmic good is by no means inept

iron saffron
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Celestials, as in angels and guardinals, almost always serve a deity so they are rather limited to what they do in the Material Plane, usually limited to acting on the behalf of their deity and/or their church.

jagged apex
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mortal views and the views of extra planar beings of the same things are drastically different in nature

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this includes the likes of gods

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the prime material plane, in the grand scheme of things is honestly kind of small potatoes so to speak

pseudo wind
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You'd think beings who supposedly champion very mortal concepts like compassion and justice can actually emphasize with mortals rather than act like uncouth aliens

iron saffron
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That's where deities clerics and paladins come into play, dealing with the day-to-day aspects of their deities' dogma.

jagged apex
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sounds like you have a misunderstanding of what they are, there is literally no human element to them, no mortality, much like with the fey is why they seem so alien

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heck, many devils have to relearn the ways of mortal minds to better manipulate those they deal with

pseudo wind
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Which doesn't strike me as Good at all

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That strikes me as more Modron esque

jagged apex
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good and evil are at best secondary forces

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as originally the 2 major forces were Law and Chaos

iron saffron
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Unless a major catastrophe will affect a massive number of followers deities don't micromanage what happens in the Material Plane. They will usually let their high level followers hand it or maybe send a deva or a planetar.

jagged apex
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and again it is not the same way we view those concepts in relation to our mortal life

pseudo wind
jagged apex
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like that is not to say they feel nothing when a terrible tragedy befalls their god's people or those close to them in the rare cases they have mortals that they grow fond of

iron saffron
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Again, usually gods let their clerics handle mortal affairs. It's only something very grevious will they even bother sending a deva.

jagged apex
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they honestly are very empathetic typically, just not in the same way a mortal would be

iron saffron
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A typical mortal lives about a hundred years which is nothing to an immortal god. They don't concern much about an individual mortal when they have millions (or more if they are worshipped in more than one setting) of followers.

pseudo wind
iron saffron
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You have to look at the grand scale of the multiverse. Gods are busy.

jagged apex
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she got so many poor mortal men killed

pseudo wind
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5e doesn't seem to even depict them as fallible, I think the last time I saw competent celestials actually Getting Things Done™️ was in 3e

jagged apex
#

again, the prime material plane, let alone any one particular world, part of it, or single mortal, is utlimately small potatoes compared to the goings on and the stakes of the multiverse

#

literally points to zariel's whole backstory in 5e decent into avernus

#

you may think it is extreme, but that is the point, angels are ment to opperate in the extremes, hense why they are mainly in the other planes and seldomly are allowed to act on the prime material plane

pseudo wind
#

So knowing that, why should an aasimar ever listen to their angelic guide?

jagged apex
iron saffron
pseudo wind
#

But if the lore states angels have absolutely no understanding of mortals whatsoever, an angelic guide makes no sense

jagged apex
pseudo wind
#

Oh right I forgot, they condensed aasimar lore into a single paragraph playdead

jagged apex
#

and even then, the guide is just that, a guide

#

think like jimmeny cricket

#

a moral advisor that they can consult

pseudo wind
#

But why listen if they have no understanding of mortal morality?

jagged apex
#

or otherwise is a way for that angel to send vauge messages an vibes quote "An aasimar, except for one who has turned to evil, has a link to an angelic being. That being—usually a deva—provides guidance to the aasimar, though this connection functions only in dreams. As such, the guidance is not a direct command or a simple spoken word. Instead, the aasimar receives visions, prophecies, and feelings."

jagged apex
#

but again, that is legacy and thus outdated info not really accounted for in the published continuity as of the release of monsters of the multiverse, where they simply are more akin to the flipside of tieflings, who are infused or otherwise connected in some way to the lower planes

#

at most an assimar in more recent version would potentially have a slight subconscious tendency toward the alignment of the being or plane their connection originates from or good ones in general, but not by all means an absolute rule as much like angels they can still fall from grace and turn to evil like any other intelligent being in dnd

#

the ability known as "Celestial Revelation" mechanically is basically them temporarily revealing their full celestial nature and it manifesting as a sort of transformation, one could argue in such a state they would be more detatched from more mortal concepts but that is more so a flavor or rp thing

#

hopefully between me and oldman we have been able to help answer your question or at least help you understand how celestials function in universe

pseudo wind
#

Sort of, though it leaves me with more questions, though that isn't because of either of you

jagged apex
#

honestly, i'd consider looking at the 5e planescape books that come out tomarrow as with what we know of this incarnation there is likely to be some more tid bits on various kinds of extra planar life potentially, especially since it reintroduces some old ones that are making their first appearance in the 5e continuity

#

otherwise there is only so much from past editions where we had gottem more details that we can assume to ring true in 5e until we get new lore that may or may not contradict

feral lintel
#

aasimars are usually just thought of as the celestial version of what a tiefling is, right?

jagged apex
#

yes, this is more so the case with the monsters of the multiverse version onwards

#

both are plane touched, one by the upper planes, and the other by the lower planes

feral lintel
#

ah ic ic

pseudo wind
#

I got stuff to say about aasimars and tieflings but this is more appropriate for #dnd-discussion

iron saffron
#

If you want lore on celestials then you should go back to past editions.

jagged apex
#

except that is not necessarily valid, as i said

#

and 5e planescape is not out yet, so maybe don't risk spoilers for those of us still having to wait

modest badger
#

Spoilers would be for adventurers, like saying 'Snape kills the Lady of Pain', or 'Here's the Lady of Pain's stats' (not that they would stat her). Generic information like 'This is how the planes work, and these beasts can be found in this book' isn't really spoilers so long as it cannot ruin an adventure path with meta knowledge.

jagged apex
#

well i'd just rather not refer to lore from planescape 5e until it is actually out, just does not feel right

#

plus kind of feels like being teased since i have to wait to even check and see if anything claimed about it is true or not

#

and not a good kind of tease

modest badger
#

It is harder to verify and have the whole context if we can't all access something, but then that's true for a few sources and we have to trust each other. Admittedly in this context the person giving the source might not have the full context either, but still.

jagged apex
#

either way, using past editions just seems like a temparary fix until we get more recent lore on those topics and not exactly true for the 5e continuity, more like a theory or speculation if anything

grim siren
#

And Celestials do get involved. In the Realms the Time of Troubles was a celestial power house. Then even closer to 5e. Mulhorandi gods despite how they are depicted have been very involved in their history.

jagged apex
#

true, given their unique situation do to the history between toril and earth, especially with one specific empire, that only recently got fixed from what i recall

sharp owl
sharp owl
#

For example, the "Dustmen" have been renamed the Heralds of Dust (which is good change IMO because "dustmen" is a British term for a trashman/garbageman)

elfin cradle
#

The sword coast would be better off with a king imo

unkempt merlin
#

It doesn't have one, it's got the equivalent of many

night frost
#

DnD frustrates me endlessly with its portrayal of deities and cosmology.

#

Sorry for being a wet blanket. Lol

#

After studying metaphysics and theology, it's very difficult for me to enjoy fantasy these days.

feral lintel
#

need some sybolism to truly enjoy gods tbh

cloud marten
#

I just accept them as part of fantasy which isn't far from how I see them IRL as well

feral lintel
#

ah ic ic

#

i usually try to make gods some sorta symbol or representation instead of just super immortal beings

#

just for lore and fun reasons

tardy wasp
#

I like my gods wonderfully weird and abstract.

#

Also, I just discovered there’s a mind flayer deity with the title of “The Philosoflayer,” and now I feel like I can go to sleep knowing today was a great day.

grim siren
#

FR gods are close approximates to Greek gods. Fallible. Petty. Personal. None of them are omnipotent, omniscient, or immutable.

That is where I like my gods.

cloud marten
#

I love how Lady of Pain pretty much kills anyone who tries to worship her

#

it's very Great Crusade era Emperor of Mankind

white ravine
night frost
night frost
#

I can't really fault Greenwood on it at the time he was writing, but it and other DnD settings have affected other fantasy ever since.

grim siren
#

Abrahamic mythic literalists?

ionic rivet
#

Hey folks - let's be careful about discussions that may touch on real world belief systems (which is against server rules). In fact I suggest we move on.

normal jay
#

Is there an official setting that necromancy friendly?

grim siren
#

The forgotten realms in particular Thay. Though you won't earn the favor of the rest of the realms, you will have one of the largest most powerful nations who's totally chill with it.

#

If you want a lot of detailed information I recommend going on to the DM's guild and looking for a book called thay Land of the Red Wizards.

It's written by the creator of The Forgotten Realms. It came out just this past year and it's got new player options, monsters, adventure ideas, as well as the detailed breakdown of the setting

#

And you can get a hard copy too. Which is always nice since it is on print on demand

unkempt merlin
# normal jay Is there an official setting that necromancy friendly?

Karrnath, one of the nations in Eberron, is very necromancy friendly. They make regular use of undead labor forces, with a number of important individuals being undead/partially undead.
The Aerenal elves also feature undead quite prominently and importantly in their culture, with their leaders all being something equivalent to positive energy liches.

Eberron in general is fairly fine with necromancy as well, small amounts of necromancy are unlikely to be viewed poorly.

night frost
#

The weird part is each deity having a "church". Though, if one wanted something that is more authentically polytheistic, they could have particular cults for a specific deity or group of deities.

grim siren
#

Broski, a mod said to move on.

night frost
#

Hm?

#

Oh.

#

How are we to critique DnD lore, then?

ionic rivet
#

In general terms and avoid touching on real world religions.

#

Basically this is not the server for those kinds of discussions.

night frost
#

But FR itself even has real world deities in it (Loviatar, Mielikki, Tyche, Tyr).

white ravine
#

Interpretations, for the most part

#

Tiamat for example isn't looking to be a goddess of the sea in DND

iron saffron
#

Those are fictional versions of them, much like Marvel has its own version of Thor and Loki.

ionic rivet
#

If you're speaking about D&D deities that's fine - but the moment you start to touch on real world religions and faiths, that's a no go.

grim siren
#

One thing I love about the realms is. Faith is largely a religion of convenience. You are going on a sea voyage? Make an offering to Umberlee so she doesn't sink the boat.

Going on a hunt? Pray to Mielikki.

Going to court? Pray to Tyr.

Single faith people in the realms were much rarer than people who worshipped as needed.

night frost
#

I have something that affirms this, but I can't really say anything due to it relating to real world religions.

undone shuttle
#

when I played a cleric at one point, my DM used to give me inspiration if I made a fairly convincing prayer

#

didn't do it often though - that would be OP

iron saffron
#

Okay... that's not really a lore thing but a gameplay thing for #dm-discussion.

grim siren
#

And one of my favorite aspects is that if a god kills another. They will usually just pose as the god for a little bit. And slowly convert the congregation. This happened with Helm and Torm in Elturel

haughty olive
#

Plus there are pantheons of gods that are basically allies, if you're a faithful of one you're cool with the others and vice versa

#

Though there are societies that are pretty militant about who they worship and allow others to worship. Followers of Lathander would tend to be frowned upon in the Underdark, probably.

drifting jacinth
#

Out of interest - How do you, as a Bladesinger flavor your Bladesong?

iron saffron
#

Not really a lore question, ask in #dnd-discussion since this is more flavour than lore of official D&D campaign settings.

maiden mortar
#

What do we know about the Queen of Air and Darkness aside from her being corrupted by an evil gem?

modest turtle
#

Anyone knows anything about the god of the hunt?

#

I forgot his name

white ravine
#

Silvanus?

modest turtle
#

Malar

pine reef
#

Curious about the Winter/Summer courts myself.

iron saffron
modest turtle
#

Yeah my character fits him so well. Wild magic+ hunt is exactly what is going on with cain

#

My character goes like : if it's edible I will chase it

cloud marten
#

while DL has lot less deities than FR I am okay with it as it makes things simpler

#

they roles are also very much defined by are they good, evil or neutral which also helps

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

and despite the name of one of his forms, seems he was not at any point a god with hunting as a domain of his or part of his portfolio

last scaffold
#

Malar has a page on the wiki. Anything particular you'd like to know about him?

jagged apex
#

and by interesting history, i mean they hate each other's guts XD

modest badger
#

That appears to be homebrew from Pickett.

jagged apex
#

the item yes, but the lore is from existing lore

modest badger
#

He literally says at the start 'this is based on extrapolation'. 'Unga: The Stump of Malar' isn't mentioned anywhere else, including the wiki, because it is not mentioned in any other source and is homebrew.

jagged apex
#

ah, could have fooled me

modest badger
#

He literally says 'This is based on extrapolation from Malar's actions in the early years but the rest of it is basically homebrew' at the beginning of the video

jagged apex
#

guess i overlooked the extrapolation part, my bad

modest badger
#

And the 'Basically homebrew' part

#

Because it is just homebrew

jagged apex
#

i said my bad

signal perch
#

Bhaal and Malar are quite similar to one another, tho malar is more about the general hunt whilst bhaal is murder galore

jagged apex
#

and from what i recall, malar was at one point subserviant to bhaal

#

and to be fair bhaal is technically the god of RITUALISTIC murder

#

so there is arguably a bit of twisted showmanship to what he is about

signal perch
#

never understood how Bane is considered more powerful then Bhaal xD

jagged apex
#

my guess is bane was party leader from their mortal days, since their alliance, for the most part continuned post godhood

#

otherwise is not really a point worth worrying about in present day with all 3 of the dead 3 being reduced to quasi-deities

signal perch
#

yea..things are not going well for evil dietes

#

Lolth lost alot of her power aswell <.<

last scaffold
#

Malar also has some standards...

#

That I don't think Bhaal would have.

signal perch
jagged apex
signal perch
#

lolth tried to become mystra 2.0 tho that failed aswell..so yea things not going well for evil dietes xD

jagged apex
#

cuz that is something his church specifically makes sure to do, they make sure their victims know that they are being murdered in the name of the lord of murder

jagged apex
sharp owl
#

@jagged apex Zero spoilers for BG3, even with spoiler bars. We have a spoiler thread for a reason

jagged apex
#

k, srry

jagged apex
signal perch
# jagged apex also i beleive you mean deities

At some point in the years leading up to 1479 DR, Lolth ordered her servants to begin collecting blue fire items and relics important to Mystra in order to use them to craft her own Demon Weave.[149] Her ultimate goal was to become the new goddess of magic,[150] but she ended up failing with the return of Mystra.[151] In truth, Lolth's plan was doomed to fail from its conception, because she lacked the competence and understanding to sustain a Weave. In fact, despite her efforts, Lolth wasn't actually creating her own Weave; she was merely leeching off the remaining strands of Mystra's, which acted as a barrier between Toril and another cataclysm

signal perch
jagged apex
#

well she was supposedly one of the og elves, so i guess it could almost make sense for her to not entirely understand the weave, especially after all the other events in her history

#

cuz for elves, at least on toril, magic is a bit different compared to other races

signal perch
#

i think Ao is quite tired of lolth and her shenanigans

jagged apex
#

and honestly, to my knowledge he dosn't care really, so long as the balance of the cosmos in the forgotten realms remains intact for the most part

#

lolth is more of an issue for the elves and her former husband than anyone else, including Ao

#

sure she annoys or gets involved one way or another with others sometimes, but the bulk of her shenanigans as you put it, is in relation to her hatred for Corellon

eager bay
#

Hello

jagged apex
#

like how she is definitely on gruumsh's radar ever since supposidly tricking him in some verson of the events that caused him and corellon to throw down, but corellon is still number one on the one eyed orc god's list of enemies

signal perch
#

obviously..cause he took his eye

jagged apex
#

honestly to my knowledge lolth rarely gets involved unless she can use it to hurt corellon in some way

#

well, lolth more or less escalated things after the supposed prank that rigged the lots so gruumsh and his orcs had no land to live in, if memory serves, as corellon was more or less gunna attempt to apologize

#

but honestly sometimes history and creation myths get weird and too intertwined to where some things could have happened at different times and other times vaguely at the same time, not entirely surprising when you remember that in dnd gods are not bound to existing by the limitations of linear time

last scaffold
#

I feel like a lot of the FR community reject that particular myth. Wasn't it a recent one?

jagged apex
#

eh, i forget, either way to my knowledge, lolth rarely if ever tends to get involved it seems unless she can use it to further her means of making corellon hurt or even kill him, like supposedly part of the reason for corrupting the drow, was that she figured that twisting his precious elves into her own twisted image would hurt his heart most of all

#

like that weave plot just seems like one of those rare times where it was just her trying to greedily gain more power that she believed she deserved

signal perch
#

obviously, as thats what most evil dietes does, trying to steal / take power to become more powerful

jagged apex
#

and if she lost any power to my knowledge it was to an unrelated event to that weave plot

signal perch
#

lolth lost most power when the dark seldarine was ressurected, so she lost the assassin portfolio

jagged apex
late flower
#

I think this is the right channel for this? Are there any common races that speak common and another obscure language? like infernal for tieflings.
I already have draconic and infernal but struggling to find another one.

sharp owl
spark haven
#

i mean, language is a cultural thing, not a racial thing

#

a dragonborn raised by dwarves would speak dwarven

sharp owl
#

One exception to that is elven in Eberron, which is a form of metaphysical connection all elves share to the feywild-like plane in that setting

spark haven
#

Races just mention "Common, Some Other Language" because they're assuming the creature was raised by their own kind

#

If they weren't, their languages would be different

sharp owl
#

Which has some odd implications as far as language adapting goes; if a new word is added to Elven in Eberron, all elves learn that word 'instantly'

jagged apex
last scaffold
#

Just meant that there seems to be different Corellon stories?

sharp owl
#

Well, it's suggested that common originates from Sigil and that's how it reached every plane as a common language

simple hatch
jagged apex
signal perch
late flower
sharp owl
jagged apex
sharp owl
#

Also something being a 'trade language' doesn't actually mean anything about the language and is just a statement of its utility

#

Common being a trade language just means "If you're going to pick any language as a trader or merchant, common is your best bet"

signal perch
#

but yea all species has their own language in dnd i think, since drow most speak undercommon with duergar, otherwise neither would understand one another as they speak their own language

sharp owl
#

No, not all species have their own language

jagged apex
#

though even without tome of foes, having a multiverse and beings that exist across many worlds and timelines, means that often some things will inevitably become inconsistant

spark haven
#

again, languages are a cultural thing. Dragonborn aren't born knowing the full Draconic language, they learn it from their community. A goblin raised by (non-Eberronian) elves would learn "Common, Elvish"

sharp owl
#

Also the notion of species/race based languages is being depreciated and decanonised due to being very problematic. Elven cultures will speak elven, but not all elves do

#

Draconic cultures will speak draconic, but that's not a statement of what a given dragonborn speaks

jagged apex
#

though that is not a hard rule these days

spark haven
#

I think there's an argument that a given species/race might have specific biological means of communication, like pheremones, color changes, infrasonic sound, that sort of stuff. But those are very reasonably excluded from the list of "Languages"

modest badger
#

Lolth has a interesting history in D&D.
in 1e AD&D She was just a Demon Queen. While drow favoured her, and she favoured drow, she was not the only demon or the drow worshipped, and drow were not the only worshippers of Lolth.
In 2e AD&D she became a bit more solidified as a 'Drow' Goddess:

Drow legends have two versions of their origins. one concerns the banishment by the sruface elves of the drow when Corellon Larethian would not allow Lolth to spread her wisdom and magical inspirations among the elven people. THis version labels Corellon as arrogant and stupid, unwilling to acknowledge Lolth as an equal, and unwilling to allow the elves to grow and develop other than in ways of his choosing. An Epic Massed battle resulted in the banishment of the race to the Underdark. The alternative version has Lolth realizing that only a minority of the elves were wise and intelligent enough for her gifts, and here she leads them away from the effete, time-wasting, lazy surface elves to a deeper world where the blossoming of their innate magical skills mirrored their growing wisdom under lolth's tutelage.
(Monster Mythology, 2e, 1992)

It was in Forgotten Realms Lore that she became an elven goddess and part of Corellon's and Gruumsh's conflict:

As Arausnee, Lolth was once a lesser power of the Seldarine and the consort of Corellon Larethian. She was the patron of artisans, the goddess of elven destiny, and- later, by Corellon's decree- the keeper of those elves who shared her darkly beautiful features. The weaver of Destiny bore Corellon's twin godlings- Vhaeraun and Eilistraee- before she turned against her lover and betrayed him. First she aided Gruumsh One-Eye, chief among the orcish gods, in one of his perennial battles with the Creator of the Elves, and then she set Malar on the trail of the weakened Corellon after observing the Beastlord defeat Herne on Faerun.
(Demi-human Deities, 2e FR, 1998)

spark haven
#

There's lots of ways to communicate, words are just one of them. Languages is about spoken/written words.

grim siren
#

While I'll accept it as lore. It seems idk meh to have every common in the multiverse to be the exact same common. Seems real hand wavy

Common in FR was an actual language called Thorasta that evolved from other languages.

jagged apex
signal perch
jagged apex
#

they likely don't feel strongly one way or another, or they see the other as a threat or a target to kill and gain more power if i had to guess

#

very little common ground between them apart from their fondness of bloodshed, least to my knowledge

signal perch
#

and ritualistic sacrifice

#

both likes sacrifical rituals

jagged apex
#

plus one is a selfish self absorbed former elf, and the other former mortal human adventurer, that honestly still kind of thinks much like a mortal, which kind of made the dead 3 sort of the worse gods in terms of doing their jobs or living up to divine standards

#

and given the way i recall lolth's drow to view humans, i doubt she would think any better of a god who use to be such a "lesser creature" as they would likely see it

modest turtle
#

What do we know about the nine hells?

#

I need some lore

modest badger
marsh bear
#

Check out Atlas Exterus: The Nine Hells - The Dungeoncast Ep.73

late flower
#

is a question about gods and cleric domains relevant here?

iron saffron
#

We don't really talk about gameplay mechanics here just the lore (aka history).

late flower
#

its about whether a goddess could ever feasibly be considered under the war domain for coherency's sake , figured you guys would know the most about gods and goddesses and their motives.

unkempt merlin
#

Well one thing to remember is that (both ruleswise and lorewise) the domain a cleric uses doesn't need to match one of the general domains of the god they follow

#

(And that's if they even follow a god)

late flower
#

Oh, ok then. I was worried about seeming like i pulled stuff from no where. Ty for the info

modest badger
#

And also yes there are Goddesses with the war domain, not sure why that'd be a question of feasibility. Unless you were meaning a specific goddess you haven't yet named, which would be helpful information.

signal perch
#

Lolth is in the war domain

#

Trickery and war

haughty olive
#

Certainly within the realm of possibility for the Spider Queen

jagged apex
#

mainly gods of "chivalry, conquest, destruction, domination, honor, pillage, and war itself obviously"

iron saffron
#

Of course talk to your DM about which gods are in their campaign setting.

jagged apex
#

destruction and domination likely being why lolth has it as one of her domains, not to mention conquest

modest badger
#

If it were a question of whether a goddess could have a war domain, then a reminder that even IRL, some of the most famous goddesses (Athena, Freya, The Morrigan) are goddesses of war. War was seen as equally a female domain for gods in many folklore.
And as Scarletsteam provided, there is a list of gods (mostly applicable to FR) who have held the war domain, many of which are goddesses.

late flower
#

It is Mystra which didn't seem quite right but I'm going with swamp's input, my DMs ruling withstanding tyvm

jagged apex
#

plus, more setting netural, it also provides a description of what kind of gods would likely have teh war domain

modest badger
#

Ah then not really for Mystra no.

jagged apex
#

even her latest incarnation, has no connections to the war domain in terms of domains and or portfolio

#

only real connection would be her being the goddess of magic and that would be a massive stretch to say the least

iron saffron
#

I don't understand why you would want to pick a deity with no connection to the war domain and clearly out of their portfolio?

modest badger
#

Might be more a discussion for #character-discussion
As Swamp pointed out in 5e, you do not need to actually match your deity's typical domains, and with DM permission can reflavour and justify certain approaches.

jagged apex
somber dome
#

quick question about bahamut:

In the lore tiamat regulary mates with her inner circle

is that same for Bahamut and any female gold dragons in his inner circle ?

modest badger
#

Lore wise Tiamat's five guards are explicitly her consorts.
Bahamut's 7 gold dragons are never mentioned to be his consorts.

jagged apex
somber dome
spark haven
#

Probably not, this is what critical analysis people call "coding"

#

Tiamat is coded as evil, and female, and as someone who takes multiple lovers. Bahamut is coded as male, good, and chaste.

jagged apex
spark haven
#

It's pretty bog standard narrative stuff ( in a heteronormative patriarchal culture )

modest badger
somber dome
jagged apex
spark haven
#

These story elements aren't really meant to be "practical", they're just easy signifiers of certain archetypes

modest badger
spark haven
#

i'm not familiar with the quote, in isolation it reads semi-ambiguously

modest badger
#

0e Greyhawk Supplement, 1975, page 35-37:

DRAGONS: These additional varities of Dragons conform to the typical characteristics of their species except where noted. There is only one King of Lawful Dragons, just as there is only one Queen of Chaotic Dragons (Women's Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing).

spark haven
#

oof

modest badger
#

And then the lore on Tiamat (including the five consorts) and bahamut.

spark haven
#

So yeah, pretty bog standard narrative shorthand/coding for the time

jagged apex
#

supposedly the gender roles of the two are unimportant, especially if looking at it from the point of the origin myth of them being spawned from the split body of Io, they represent the 2 halves that made up the dragon pantheon head deity

#

tiamat got the evil part of Io, while bahamut the good, and the gender is arbitrary as they are simply opposites

spark haven
#

In-fiction, it may or may not be immaterial what Bahamut is a male, but the authors chose to make the most evil dragon of evil dragons a female

#

so it's not nothing

modest badger
#

From an in universe spective sure.
From a coding perspective, no. It was concious coding, that even Gygax acknowledged with his little quip.

spark haven
#

they chose to represent Tiamat, the most evil of all dragons, as a character who doesn't bind herself into a hetero, monogamous relationship for the purposes of child rearing

jagged apex
#

what is important is one being the embodiment of evil dragon kind and the other of good dragon kind, but with the way gods work, on any world they could in theory choose to manifest as the opposing gender, nothing in the lore for gods of their status limits them to a specific gender to my knowledge, is just in most if not all known settings thus fall they have chosen to keep their genders consistant with that which they manifest as normally when taking on their "true" form

modest badger
#

Remember to avoid a 'Thermian Argument' when it comes to lore of trying to explain away a writing decision with in universe justification.

spark haven
#

Yeah and that's all great in-universe. All the elves and dwarves and hobgoblins are all fine with their ostensibly gender neutral dragon gods

#

but they're not presented as genderless to players

#

(or in-universe either)

jagged apex
#

and honestly, unless is referenced in the lore itself, i'd argue those coding writing things have no real bearing on the lore, so is more so just a fun fact about the development on the meta side of dnd in relation to the characters of these two draconic deities

modest badger
#

The authors choice reflects their own values and decisions. This type of coding is not presented in a vacuum, and is drawn from the language and symbolism the author is familiar with.

And lore should still be examined from a 'meta' perspective. Lore can be harmful, or dated, or reflecting values and judgements of the time. Dismissing it as 'just lore' isn't helpful.

In this case, it's not the worst lore in D&D, and providing it doesn't end up a too repeated pattern isn't as much an issue. But it's always something to keep in mind- Why did the writer chose to write the lore that way?

spark haven
#

unless is referenced in the lore itself
Sure, I'm pretty sure the worshippers of Tiamat know about her 5 consorts. So this counts. The coding is in-fiction because it's...part of the fiction

#

yeah, this is not to say "throw away the source material"

#

just be cognizant of the forces at play within it

#

Bahamut and Tiamat are objectively cool

jagged apex
#

eh, to a degree, but i imagine some details we know as readers their faithful do not know

spark haven
#

but they also encode some unfortunate ideas about gender roles

#

both statements can be true

unkempt merlin
snow laurel
#

So Wildspace is supposed to be temperate, right? Not like the cold void of space IRL? The Rock of Bral is said to replenish its water supply through towing "ice asteroids". How does water stay in solid ice form in wildspace if wildspace is warm? Does it get colder further from the sun?

jagged apex
#

realm space at least

#

it varies from wildspace to wildspace system

iron saffron
#

Glaciers and icebergs can exist in the summer. The larger the mass of the ice the slower it takes to melt.

modest badger
#

In 5e we know that they're generally temperate, and that getting closer to a star does increase the temperature:

Some Wildspace systems, however, have significantly higher or lower temperatures. Krynnspace, for example, has a very low natural temperature (about 16 degrees Fahrenheit), and clouds of ice particles swirl in the vacuum within its boundaries. Of course, as one approaches a star that puts out heat, the ambient temperature increases.
(Astral Adventurer's Guide, 'Temperature', p.21)

This is generally true for 2e Spelljammer as well.
Realmspace might be the warmest sphere if 2e lore still applies (Krynn was the coldest in 2e as well), although I can't recall an exact temperature being given:

This fiery body burns with so much fury that it can maintain an unusually warm temperature within the whole crystal sphere, without damaging the planets that orbit it. Many sages believe that crystal sphere warming is a naturally occurring phenomenon. They say that the older a system is, the warmer the sphere. If this is the case, Realmspace is the oldest system encountered so far. This warming allows for comfortable spelljamming anywhere within the sphere.
(2e, Realmspace, 'The Sun' p.5)

#

The temperature throughout Greyspace is relatively constant, except very close to Liga. It is an unchanging 40°F to 45°F—chilly, but far from unbearable. Travelers would be well advised to dress for the temperature, of course.
(2e, Greyspace, 'Sphere Overview' p.6)

#

Scholars and sages who travel between spheres have noticed Krynnspace is markedly cooler than other spheres. They hypothesize that this lower temperature is responsible for a phenomenon unique to the sphere- billowy, nearly transparent clouds known as the Clouds of Freezing Vapours.
(2e, Krynnspace, 'Clouds of Freezing Vapours', p.3)
In 2e the clouds were actually put there by the gods to help 'cloak' their actions on worlds because they also interfere with scrying. the clouds can be 1 to 100 miles thick and can lure people to stop/jump into them. That is of course 2e lore, and I don't think it's repeated in 5e. So the above can be taken as guidelines for temperature, but are not 'canon' for 5e.

storm dagger
jagged apex
#

not entirely his fault if memory serves since i believe cyric took most of his domains and kept a good bit when he murdered him and back when he returned

jagged apex
#

honestly he is lucky he was able to regain any of his divinity

#

and if you are gunna have anything in your portfolio as the lord of murder, it damn well is gunna be murder, else you are just gunna look silly

tame locust
#

So the high elves, wood elves and drow...

They were once all one kind of elf? Is there lore about the originals? ... aside from Corellion made them... like what were they like?

iron saffron
#

Eladrin

jagged apex
#

from my understanding they were originally natural shapeshifters like corellon, but after lolth's steps leading up to her betrayl or after he betrayl, i don't recall it being clear and if it was i can't recall, but eventually they adopted the form of an elf based on what they associated themselves with and that eventually became the different kinds of elves we know today

arctic ginkgo
#

I'm a little confused. What kind of appearance are Pallid elves supposed to have?

iron saffron
magic jackal
arctic ginkgo
#

Ohhh gotcha

#

thank you!

feral lintel
#

isnt Tiamat a goddess in original mythos tho?

magic jackal
#

What original mythos

feral lintel
#

mesopotamian

#

Altho she as a water goddess then, not a dragon god

#

she did create dragons from her blood tho

magic jackal
#

Yes she is not original to D&D

feral lintel
#

just saying that that Tiamat may have been the inspiration for the DnD one

magic jackal
#

I would call that "Real world mythology" not "original mythos" lol

#

Also she isn't the only one

#

Believe it or not, Tyr is also not original to D&D

#

Believe it or not, the title of Annam as All-Father is also from not originally D&D

feral lintel
#

thats not the point i was making tho

#

(mythology fanatic)

magic jackal
#

Doubtful that her whole deal was inspired by Babylonian Tianat

feral lintel
#

maybe the name tho, and the correlation to dragons

magic jackal
#

There's some vague references under Marduk (who is an aspect of Bahamut) wherein they are said to have had epic conflict in the lore, which sorts connects to Babylonian Marduk and therefore Babylonian Tiamat

feral lintel
#

yee

magic jackal
#

More likely the inspiration was just "It's an intimidating/ancient sounding name, has primordial correlations and is sometimes depicted as a dragon"

#

She's really not got a lot in common with Babylonian Tiamat beyond that.

feral lintel
#

Tru

#

not much water elements

sharp owl
#

What do you mean? Also this sounds like a #dnd-rules question, not a lore question

dawn stream
#

oh sorry i clicked on the wrong channel

modest badger
#

Remember that in her first appearance Tiamat in 0e Greyhawk Supplement was just 'Chaotic Dragon Queen'. The name came after her conception, in the 1e MM, after a fair bit of her concept (five headed, wyvern tailed, five guards) was established.

#

0e Greyhawk Supplement, 1975, page 35-37:

DRAGONS: These additional varities of Dragons conform to the typical characteristics of their species except where noted. There is only one King of Lawful Dragons, just as there is only one Queen of Chaotic Dragons (Women's Lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing).

The Dragon Queen: The Chromatic Dragon is a huge creature with five heads, one of each color of the five Chaotic Dragons. Her body is striped in these same colors, and her tail is that of a Wyvern. She can employ all heads at once, either to breath or cast spells. Her major abode is in a stupendous cavern far beneath the earth. Her guard consists of five dragons, each of largest size, of the five Chaotic types of dragons. Her major aim is to spread evil.

fast bobcat
#

Some of the Faerun gods kind of just walked over from our own Mythology at times, others share names and themes but are their own separate beings.
It's not particularly consistent (and to be fair, the Realms aren't either)

modest badger
#

Any connection to the actual Tiamat/Bahamut in mythology would have been established after much of their conception was made. This is also why they are Takhisis and Paladine in Dragonlance, as those two originated from the yet unnamed 'Dragon Queen of Chaos' and 'Lawful Dragon King' from 0e in Jeff Grub's own game as 'Draco Cerberus' and 'Draco Paladin', and then named Takhisis and Paladine in Dragonlance when used by Tracy Hickman.
Meanwhile Gygax had settled on 'Tiamat' and 'Bahamut' for the 1e MM.

fast bobcat
#

I guess the question then is where they link in terms of lore.
Like Sylvanus and Tyr came from Earth to the Forgotten Realms, Tiamat on the other hand is pretty distinct from the Babylonian Tiamat.

storm dagger
#

Like honestly if it were not for Baldur's Gate Bhaal would have been a nobody.

modest badger
#

So in 1e, Tiamat doesn't have a lot. She has her MM entry, which expands on her 0e Greyhawk entry as basically the Evil Queen of Dragons. In Legends & Lore, in the Babylonian Pantheon section the only mention of 'Tiamat' is this:

Marduk is called ”the justice bringer" and ”lord of pure incantations”. His
battles with Tiamat are legendary.
(1e, Legends & Lore, 1984, Babylonian Pantheon: Marduk, p.24)
This is also the same note for Marduk in Dieties & Demigods 1980 which also has this note, placing Tiamat as a lesser god in the Dragon pantheon:
NOTE: The following beings from the MONSTER MANUAL and FIEND FOLIO should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers:
MONSTER MANUAL
Demon:, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu
Devil: Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater, Geryon
Dragon: Bahamut, **Tiamat **
(Line breaks removed for space)
(1e, Dieties and Demigods (1st print), 1980 ' Nonhuman Deities', p.105)

So in 1e, Tiamat is a Nonhuman (Dragon) lesser god, who also has legendary fights with the Babylonian god Marduk but is not explicitly part of the Babylonian pantheon.

"Tiamat's cult was brought to the Realms, along with the faiths of the rest of the untheric pantheon, when in ancient times the Imaskari wizards kidnapped an entire population of humans and brought them to Faerun to serve as their slaves. The Mulan peoples, as they came t be known, revered Enlil and his progeny and were taught by their priests that Tiamat was the Queen of Chaos (somewhat of a misnomer) and the Nemesis of the Gods.
(2e, Forgotten Realms: Powers & Pantheons, 1997, 'Mulhourandi & Untheric Pantheons: Tiamat', p.133)

In 2e Monster Mythology (1992) Tiamat is part of 'Gods of the Scaly folk' and is a Draconic diety and no mention to Babylonian or Untheric pantheon is mentioned.
So 'generically' in D&D, Tiamat is a draconic deity. In Forgotten Realms, 2e lore, Tiamat had a unique three headed avatar as the 'Dark Lady' in the Untheric Pantheon.

#

Pretty sure that 2e lore for Tiamat's origins have been retconned even in FR, but I'd need to break into the 3e and later books for that.

#

Fairly certain Fizban's sticks to the draconic diety only aspect, and so does 5e's Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide:

Then, during the Dawn War, Io was killed by the primordial known as Erek-Hus, the King of Terror. With a rough-hewn axe of adamantine, the behemoth split Io from head to tail, cleaving the dragon-god into two equal halves, which rose up as new gods—Bahamut and Tiamat. Droplets of Io's blood, spattered across the world, became the first dragonborn.
(SCAG, p.112)

The 5e DMG gives an example Pantheon with Tiamat in the 'Dawn War pantheon' and the PHB gives her as a 'nonhuman diety'.

#

Okay, so the Untheric (the Babylonian) Pantheon didn't really survive 2e, but 3e FR keeps Tiamat's origins as a Untheric diety:

Two of the Untheric deities—Assuran (now known as Hoar) and Tiamat—have joined the Faerûnian pantheon and the rest of the Untheric deities have died, either before or during the Time of Troubles
( p.5)
Tiamat is an interloper deity, brought to Faerun along with the rest of the Untheric Pantheon.
(3e, Faiths & Pantheons, 2002, 'Other Dieties of Faerun: Tiamat', p.104)

jagged apex
sharp owl
#

Let's stay on topic please

modest badger
#

To try and clear up in D&D terms,
RL Mesopotamia is the region, and Babylon is a city within it that then named the empire. So roughly if something is Babylonian, it is Mesopotamian, but not all things Mesopotamian are Babylonian. Tiamat is 'both'. But that's a bit beyond the scope here.

In D&D terms, Babylonian Pantheon was introduced in Deities and Demigods 1e. Tiamat was not apart of this, but Anu, Anshar, Druaga, Girru, Ishtar, Marduk, Nergal and Ramman were.
In 2e Forgotten Realms the 'Untheric Pantheon' was based partially on this- Keeping Girru, Ishtar, Mardak, Nergal and Ramman. And Gilgeam is clearly based on Gilgamesh, and Inanna is another mesopotamian goddess.

However in FR pretty much all of these gods besides Tiamat and Assuran (now Hoar) were killed off, so there is no more Untheric Pantheon, which had a short life restricted pretty much to 2e.

So 1e- Babylonian pantheon in Deities and Demigods, not really setting based
2e FR- Untheric Pantheon borrows some of these for FR
3e+ They all die except two who weren't even part of the original 1e Babylonian Pantheon >.>

jagged apex
#

to my knowledge, wasn't marduk revealed to later be bahamut's aspect within the untheric pantheon?

modest badger
#

Oh yeah- So 3e FR does acknowledge the Untheric Pantheon, even if it's pretty much dead by that point:

The last great era of conflict between the Platinum Dragon and the Chromatic Dragon raged from –2087 DR to –1071 DR, during the first millennium of the Untheric empire. Tiamat’s cult was brought to Faerûn (at least among humans) by the Mulan. The clergy of Enlil preached that Tiamat was the Nemesis of the Gods, and she was blamed by the god-kings for every setback Unther experienced as it rose to greatness and then decayed over the centuries. Tiamat battled **an Untheric alias of Bahamut, known as Marduk the Justice Bringer, **time and again, but neither wyrm could prevail.
(...)
During the fi nal Battle of the Gods, Tiamat launched a surprise attack against Gilgeam while he battled Ilneval. The ever-vigilant Marduk intervened, killing Tiamat before she could land a death blow against Gilgeam, but at the cost of his own life. In the wake of the Battle of the Gods, the Platinum Dragon was reduced to the rank of celestial paragon BoED (with divine rank 1 if celestial paragons are considered demigods in your campaign), and the Chromatic Dragon was reduced to the rank of archfiend BoVD (with divine rank 1 if archfiends are considered demigods in your campaign). Marduk’s church vanished entirely, his name remembered only as one of the Old Ones of Unther, but Tiamat’s cult survived after a fashion. As Gilgeam grew increasingly tyrannical, the people of Unther never forgot the Nemesis of the Gods and they increasingly turned to her in secret for succor.
(3e, Dragons of Faerun, 2006, 'True Dragons of the World', p.8)

Which is an interesting twist that I think only appears in that book. I guess once the gods are dead you can do whatever you like with them, including just saying 'yeah he was Bahamut all along'.

jagged apex
#

makes sense since sort of constant across editions is tiamat and bahamut always being in conflict, like where ever tiamat's schemes are enacted, bahamut tends to oppose her and her forces

jagged apex
#

like they were getting so tired of gilgeam's new ways, they seemed to cling on to the one god that more or less opposed him, even though from what i am aware is not like she was much better in the grand scheme of things

#

might just be me but i kind of find that funny in an ironny heavy kind of way

jagged apex
#

to those who have "MORDENKAINEN'S FIENDISH FOLIO VOLUME 1", assuming they did not get anything new in 5e planescape, but would a theoretical 5e incarnation of a high Xill likely have the clerical powers of older editions and or affiliation with their previously established deity, Sixin or since they seem to more so run with the created by Keraptis origin would they have some sort of powers associated with the wizard and if so what might some of those powers be? as i have been able to find very little if anything on either Sixin or Keraptis

sharp owl
#

That supplement doesn't portray them as anything like that

#

They're described as servitors created by Keraptis to collect powerful artefacts

#

They're depicted as more reptilian and insectoid in their nature, no mention of "high xill" or any affiliation with any deity

jagged apex
#

so likely a stronger one, or high xill for lack of a better term would likely have abilities sort of like the stuff associated with Keraptis, which again i can't really find anything on other than his association with the pyronomicon, or would he likely make a stronger xill more specialized for the stated purpose? if going with the line of thinking that this theory of "The one found most plausible by scholars of the planes..." as the suppliment describes it, is true

#

(cuz honestly am wondering cuz i like to make my stuff rooted in the published lore and am wanting to make a oneshot in a semi alien/aliens vibe using them since they are more or less to my understanding the most akin creature in dnd to the xenomorph, and given their cr seems the big bad of the oneshot should be a sort of stronger version)

sharp owl
#

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that in the Fiendish Folio

#

Like, that seems kinda at odds with what is presented

restive summit
#

In the new Planescapes book, how does magic work in Sigil? Is it like in the earlier editions? (I am getting the book soon but I’m impatient)

sharp owl
#

There are various changes

#

lemme bring up my copy

#

Here we go, here's the tl;dr

  • Bannishment: You treat Sigil as your home plane
  • Extradimensional spaces: function within Sigil but follow the restrictions of Sigil as if they were a part of it
  • Planar Travel: With one exception, nope, don't work
  • Summoning: Pulls creatures from within Sigil itself, if they can't they fail. Better hope you don't run into someone you failed at a bar later on
  • Teleportation: Can teleport normally within the city, can't teleport in/out
  • Teleportation Circles: You can use existing circles but can't create new ones
#

Also the Lady of Pain can lock down all portals at a whim

jagged apex
# sharp owl There's absolutely nothing to suggest that in the Fiendish Folio

ah, would Keraptis not modify them beyond that supposed purpose listed in that origin? i will admit i am not that familiar with his character, with him being from not only older editions but specifically greyhawk, and even with what i have been able to look up online i am not entirely sure i necessarily fully understand his character

sharp owl
#

I don't know, I'm referring to what is printed in the Fiendish Folio

#

It's stated that it's speculated they were created as servitors, that is it

jagged apex
#

it does also mention this "It is telling that the xills rarely kidnap commoners. Instead, they target young but promising adventurers, those whose natural talent and aptitude point to a bright future but whose skills have not yet grown sharp enough to repel a dedicated assault." after talking about how such individuals perhaps make up the bulk of Kerpatis' after he brainwashes them

#

i do have access to it, i am just not sure what conclusions to make on my own based on what is in it if i am going to build off it in some manner

sharp owl
#

sure

jagged apex
#

so i was more or less hoping someone who knows more about them or more so now this kerpatis guy would be able to help by providing me with any lore on him from past editions that may be a bit more detailed than what i could find online on my own

#

since the old lore is likely the most we would have since to my knowledge his mentions in the Xill's 5e incarnation's lore is his only real mention/apperance in 5e

#

from what i recall being able to find is a number of his underlings messed with his stuff in his lab and basically wound up becoming cursed or something to where they thought they were the real kerpatis, though not sure if that would reasonably be able to happen to the xill since the 5e version seems to lean hard into them being minions ment to snatch up magical items and people

eager bay
#

I played 2nd edition D&D but not anything with Kerpatis in it all I remember is he’s an evil wizard

#

White Plume Mountain is the main module tho

#

So look that up it’s a 1st ED module

jagged apex
#

yeah, most info i found of him was mainly relating to things he used or was involved with, mainly the pyronomicon

#

like most in terms of like even what kind of wizard he was was in universe speculation

jagged apex
eager bay
#

Idk man I can’t keep up with older stuff now I used to be able to but I can’t anymore

jagged apex
#

do we even know if kerpatis is still alive? the real one not one of the minions who wound up having their personalities and identities rewitten with partial copies of his own?, like one of the things i found online someone ran him as a lich of sorts and someone claimed kerpatis did not want to become undead, so since he is human is he dead likely by modern day or would he have been able to find enough potions that extended his life to still be a round and active in some capacity? seems the guy is more vauge and mysterious than vecna, the literal god of secrets

eager bay
#

Man I was gonna post a shrug

#

Cuz I have no idea

jagged apex
#

am considering having one xill have maybe subcum to the similar sort of fate of those gnomes, like maybe he sent one to retrieve something from his lab, mind altering magic activates and, the xill believes itself to be Kerpatis and things move forward form there more or less

#

is there anything about the movement between planes and the magic they use to quote "magically shift from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane, or vice versa" that would prevent that concept from being reasonable or would the mind remain rewritten until specifically restored to a former state with some sort of magic?

modest badger
jagged apex
modest badger
#

TBH, I can't even find that Gazetteer. Much of the Living Greyhawk RPGa sources are lost as they were shared only among certain regions and had copyright issues with being shared beyond that.

Best I can find is a now dead website for organising Living Greyhawk: Onnwal, which on this page, 'Onnwal Gazetteer: Introduction: The Setting', mentions Keraptis once as a major villain.

Many famous villains can also trace their origins back to GREYHAWK: Vecna, Kas, Keraptis, Acererak, Iggwilv, and Azalin to name but a few!

I can only assume this is similar to what was in the printed Gazetteer.

#

This seems to be the case, looking at similar Greyhawk forums using the index asking what LOG (Living Onnwal Gazetteer) is, and where the mentions of (Azalin/Keraptis) are, and the old members liking to this site.

jagged apex
#

well his only mentions in 5e are off hand and seems all other info is vauge

#

and some of the things i either can't find or don't own and don't have the money to spare at the moment

#

the most i have found on him is largely in universe speculation

#

nothing that really even gives me a solid idea on what kind of spells he used, the real him that is, aside from the some spells in the pyronomicon

#

best i could find in that part that he is supposedly mentioned in "Living Onnwal Gazetteer" is about the kinds of spells that certain peoples who are wizards tend to use and such practices for the various parts making up in terms of the chapter's title "Folks of the Flanaess"

#

but nothing on that that actually mentions Keraptis

#

best i can gather is that source is trying to imply he was Baklunish

modest badger
#

I'm not sure which part any of this is actually referring to I'm afraid. Or which Living Onnwal Gazeteer you're actually looking at.

#

Sounds like you're looking at the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer

#

Chapter 2: Folks of the Flanaess is on page 5 of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

jagged apex
#

dang it, guess i found the wrong one

jagged apex
#

yeah nothing new was found after checking those at least out of the stuff i could find or otherwise have access to

#

most of it is just off hand mentions of him

#

but at least based off the spells that bear his name in the pyronomicon, i guess at least fire spells would be a safe bet for spells of a caster that thinks they are keraptis are a safe bet

#

might just barely have enough now to go forward with my idea, thx even though couldn't really dig up much of anything new, i swear this guy is still in my opinion seems even more secretive than vecna, heck asmodeus is the only character i can think of in dnd lore that is shrouded in more mystery

jagged apex
#

ever since i learned the pyronomicon is a thing in dnd lore, i wonder if there are similar books out there in the depths of past editions for the other 3 major elements🤔

fathom rapids
#

Why is the Waterdeep faction called the Gray Hand, but then called the Force Grey?

maiden mortar
fathom rapids
#

That would imply it was a 1 time mistake

jagged apex
#

potential other explanation, it could be another name they are known by

#

but seems more likely to be a typo that was not caught

maiden mortar
fathom rapids
jagged apex
#

shrugs sometimes dnd is just weird

#

is also sometimes ok for the dm to wildly speculate and roll with it to make their take on a setting stand out

#

i mean could be it has some connection or lineage to greyhawk, but idk how that name even came about for that setting in universe so idk

#

far as i know, even behind the scenes of things it is not clear

#

like odds are it is simply a name they go by as one of their aliases is the same but with the other kind of gray

#

could even be just in universe sometimes people going off just word of mouth don't know which gray is being used so they just guess

fathom rapids
#

Well, the thing is, in universe there should only be 1 kind of gray. Its a regional difference. America use "gray" and England uses "grey." Its like the difference between Armor and Armour. Of course regional dialects could still exist in Forgotten Realms, but we don't have any examples of that, and the fact that both exist not only in the same city, but within the same organization is just really weird to me

jagged apex
#

we know regional dialects exist in the forgotten realms

#

they are an adventuring company and both are names for the same one

maiden mortar
jagged apex
#

so idk what you are talking about as if they are two separate things

fathom rapids
jagged apex
#

where are you getting this info, as i am seeing no indication they are seperate

fathom rapids
#

Waterdeep Dragon Heist

#

Vajra offers the characters membership in the Gray Hands, a private security force under her command. She doles out missions designed to tax the characters’ resources and test their loyalty to Waterdeep. Characters who complete these missions won’t gain enough renown to join Force Grey yet, but they will gain something valuable: the Blackstaff’s patronage. Vajra continues to take an interest in their adventuring careers, helping out when she can.

jagged apex
#

well i don't have access to that book

#

that seems it easily could be less the roles of the two names and just meaning they are basically being offered an internship

fathom rapids
#

That's what the Gray Hands is, yes

jagged apex
#

no, as i said, it does not nessissarily mean that is the role of the gray hands

fathom rapids
#

It literally says right there, she offers them membership in the Gray Hands, but they aren't ready to join the Force Grey yet

jagged apex
#

is there a side bar that explisidly says that those are the roles of those names in the organization? else it seems to me like there is enough wiggle room to have it possible that it can be taken a way other than what you are saying

fathom rapids
#

Ah yes, I found it. There is a description of the faction in the beginning of the book:

Force Grey
To join Force Grey, one must first become a member of the Gray Hands.

jagged apex
#

especially in conjuction with the sources consolidated on the wiki from multiple editions, which seems to use the names interchangably

#

huh, odd, you think someone would have added that detail to the wiki by now given how long ago that module came out

fathom rapids
#

Adventurers who show promise might be invited to join the Gray Hands, a faction overseen by the Blackstaff, Vajra Safahr. Members of the Gray Hands complete assignments dictated by Vajra.

Force Grey is an elite cadre of specialized adventurers, drawn from the ranks of the Gray Hands, whose fighting prowess is matched only by their loyalty to the city. Force Grey attracts the best of the best. Characters don’t begin their adventuring careers as members of Force Grey, but they can work up to that status.

jagged apex
#

so i guess either it is just to denote the rookies from the senior members or it is literally just a name with no real reason behind it

#

though seems you're likely right in based on what you provided

fathom rapids
#

Regardless, none of this really answers my original question, which is just "why are they spelled differently?"

jagged apex
#

from what i can gather, there literally is no reason given

#

in or out of universe

fathom rapids
#

Seems that way

jagged apex
#

so could just be regional thing or different dialects, given the wide variety of members

fathom rapids
#

Huh, yeah its looks like the wiki is out of date. I guess the names were used interchangeably in older editions or something.

jagged apex
#

is neat that there is at least one frost giant your characters can count on in the realms probably, since seems he is likely still alive today, since his last apperance he was still an active member in the time of storm kings thunder https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Harshnag

#

that seems like a fun bit of rp food for the dm, if the party continues to work with the orginization, socializing with a good natured frost giant and all that would entail, especially with some of the extra giant tid bits we got in bigby's

#

though canonically Harshnag's fate is unknown

#

personally i hope he survived

tardy wasp
#

Any fancy newfangled lore about the planes or Great Wheel in Planescape?

jagged apex
#

all i know of is the earlier mentioned of how magic works differently in the outlands compared to past continuities

jagged apex
#

though that could just be within sigil itself, otherwise i am just as in the dark and curious as you as i don't have the book nor the money right now to but it, let alone the bundle

sharp owl
#

That's not new lore...

#

It's just reitteration of old lore to work with current mechanics

signal perch
#

is an elder brain really the most dangerous enemy in dnd?

rose hawk
#

when its being controlled by 3 insufferable champions it is. but actually, maybe

#

mind flayers do be good, turns out

sharp owl
#

Not really a lore question

fast bobcat
#

When you've got multiple settings and worlds, some of which are multiversal in nature, the idea of most dangerous being is a rapid cascade of nigh-omnipotent godlike beings each of whom has some claim to being stronger than the others.

sharp owl
#

There are lots of different entities that are established in lore to be very dangerous for various reasons, but none of them really hold the title of "most dangerous"

signal perch
rose hawk
#

sorry, i would say it all depends on the campaign

jagged apex
#

i'd argue tharizdun, realistically is the most dangerous, unless we were to only count those with statblocks

sharp owl
#

Again, it's not really a lore question due to being about the most dangerous enemy

raw reef
#

you could go by cr

sharp owl
#

Again, not a lore question

#

CR is not rooted in lore, it's a mechanical tool for the game

raw reef
#

ye

sharp owl
#

There are lots of dangerous beings in D&D lore, from Atropus the World Born Dead (an undead god the size of a planet wandering through the astral sea and wild space) to Tharizudn to Asmodeus who, with command of the legions of Hell, could very well subjugate the entire material plane if it were not for the opposing forces of the Abyss

raw reef
#

ye

jagged apex
#

and depending on which origin is true, just needs to leave baator and it's gg for the entire cosmos

raw reef
#

i personaly like orcus but i know he's no the strongest

signal perch
#

say the grand design begins, again not bg3, would that spill into the hells? what would happen with the afterlife as mindflayers dosnt have a soul

sharp owl
#

The grand design is just the plan to reforge the illithid empire

#

It might include the outer planes, but I'm not sure what it'd have to do with afterlives

#

You don't need a soul to cross into the outer planes

signal perch
#

no but the gods/ goddesses would get no souls

spark haven
#

it'd probably be a lot harder to slug demons/devils than mortals

sharp owl
#

The grand design doesn't include turning all creatures into mind flayers

#

They would still have need to subjugate various other peoples, and not just as food

jagged apex
# raw reef i personaly like orcus but i know he's no the strongest

to be fair, do you really need to be when you have effectively ensured your continued existence till the heat death of the multiverse? as from what i understand, that is supposedly what he effectively did when he came back from his death as Tenebrous, though to be fair that is not out right confirmed more so kind of implied or otherwise a theory based on those events

spark haven
#

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. If they can't slug people, they're going to have a drastically harder time getting a foothold

crude blaze
#

Yeah, turning everybody into mind flayers is probably a pretty good way to finish mind flayers off for good

spark haven
#

So that invasion might be a late-game part of their plan

#

Once they have proper armies again

jagged apex
crude blaze
#

If everybody’s a mind flayer, there’s nowhere to go but down

sharp owl
#

When you are captured by a mind flayer, there are a few ways it can go

  • ceramorphosis (least likely)
  • brain extraction for knowledge
  • brain extraction for food
  • experimentation
  • turned into a thrall
  • enslavement
#

Of those, only ceramorphosis and brain extraction for food are guaranteed to destroy the soul

#

Depending the experimentation, that might also destroy your soul

jagged apex
#

especially if the subject is an extra planar being and they manage to do it in a place where they will effectively be considered on their home plane and thus experience a true death if the experiment proves fatal, though to my knowledge that is easier said than done

signal perch
#

apperantly according to the wiki the illithid empire is enough of a threat for the devils to paus the blood wars

#

The Illithid Empire rose up before the existence of many peoples across the multiverse, and their power soon became all but absolute.[8] The threat of the empire against all existence was so profound, that even the archdevils of the Nine Hells at one point temporarily ceased their campaigns in the Blood War in order to act upon the emerging threat

spark haven
#

Yeah, it seems relatively self-evident that the Illithids want to conquer Hell and the Abyss, eventually. The question is how would they best go about it? Probably not ceremorphosis and gradual infiltration

sharp owl
jagged apex
#

i know

#

their souls and bodies are more or less one and the same, which was kind of my point in that case

sharp owl
#

Okay, so how is that related to the question of souls?

#

I think maybe you've missed a beat in the topic

#

It was about how the Grand Design would affect the availability of (mortal) souls and the power of beings that rely on them and their worship

#

Also illithids almost exclusively prey upon humanoids, and a narrow selection of humanoids at that

jagged apex
jagged apex
jagged apex
sharp owl
#

And the answser is "not as much as you might think as the Grand Design is not about turning every mortal into an illithid, as there'd be a crucial need to maintain populations of non-illithid peoples"

jagged apex
#

basically like how vampires would turn many mortals into glorified cattle

#

if cattle could serve as minions

sharp owl
jagged apex
#

now i just imagine in the glory days of the illithid, brain burgers were a thing, mainly cuz of the cattle analogy

sharp owl
#

nah, I think instead I'll just disengage from this topic

#

laters

jagged apex
#

which is new info to me, learn something new everyday i guess

signal perch
#

gross..

jagged apex
#

gross, yes, but also at least to me somewhat interesting

modest badger
#

Also, as been pointed out, not all extraplanar beings in D&D can't be killed outside their realm. It's mostly just fiends.

modest badger
# signal perch say the grand design begins, again not bg3, would that spill into the hells? wha...

Mindflayers have souls, it's just not the same soul as the original host.
The Illithiad, 2e, 1998, has this:

Generally speaking, the point after implantation. Any time after this, it is impossible to restore the victim; his or her spirit seeks its fate in the Outer Planes (p.12)

Illithids do not seek an afterlife in the Outer Planes after death; instead, they endeavor to join—mind and spirit—with the elder brain of their community. The promise of life after death that so many deities hold over their worshipers does not offer the same appeal to many illithids. Thus, illithid deities suffer a lack of after-life spirits (petitioners) from the very race that believes in them. (p.40)

This is older lore, but with 5e and pretty much everything having souls, holds true enough

jagged apex
#

more recently they seemingly have been leaning towards not having souls, at least the version in bg3 goes with such an interpretation

#

plus at least according to AJ Pickett and the way he explained how illithid view the gods, they are a means to an end

#

either way, historically for one reason or another any illithid petitioners would be very rare

modest badger
#

Huh so 5e has:

Since they are capable of planar travel, illithids don't view the afterlife and the Outer Planes in the mythic way that most other races do. Illithids don't beleive they have souls whose eternal fate is governed by the gods. Instead, when a mind flayer's brain is returned to the elder brain to be consumed, the creature's intelligence lives on. Only if an illithid's brain isn't retrieved after death would its consciousness be cast into oblivion.
-Volo's Guide to Monsters p.80

So while not explicitly saying they don't have souls, it does indeed seem to be a running theme that they are rarely petitioners. Volo's gives two 'entities' that are more philosophical ideals than gods of worship.

modest badger
jagged apex
#

like could vengeance be made into some sort of ideology?

#

since creeds are basically illithid's version of ideological factions, kind of not that different conceptually at least from the factions of sigil, in so far as they are factions rooted in a certain view or way of thinking

#

like i know ideology and philosphy are different, but looking at the definitions they are very similar i can't help but notice

jagged apex
#

the pyronomicon is described as approaching 100Lb in terms of weight, implying it is close to but not at that weight, what seems like a reasonable weight given the dimensions of the book are described as "3’ long, 2’ wide, and 1’ thick" or is 100lb accurate enough?

sharp owl
#

You're approaching it the wrong way

#

Give it's volume and mass, you can determine it's density and thus infer what materials it's made from

jagged apex
#

ah, well i am basically just wondering if a more exact number can be reached since to my knowledge the "approaching 100lb" is the only number given for it in regards to it's weight but that seems to imply it is less, the materials are described as quote "The covers and spine are constructed of thick but supple red dragonhide, and its vellum pages which are affixed to the spine in some mysterious fashion that cannot be discerned with out dismantling and there by destroying the book" but i am not even sure how much the hide of a red dragon weights let alone how much of it to make up the covers and spine of the tome is, and don't even know what vellum is let alone how much any given page of the stuff would be

#

so at least one material is unknown, at least as far as i can tell

sharp owl
#

I really think you're pushing the limits of how far lore matters

#

If the lore says it was close to 100lbs, it's close to 100lbs

jagged apex
#

ok, thx, i just like to be accurate with these sort of things, so sometimes i over think it

sharp owl
#

I think you're overthinking it dndLol

jagged apex
#

srry, but thank you again for helping me reach a conclusion regardless

calm crest
#

The six cubic feet of vellum alone would weigh nearly one hundred pounds.

magic jackal
#

Depending on some factors it could be way more than 100 lbs.

drowsy wraith
#

Hey can someone here give me a tour of the Southeastern portion of Faerun? Halruua, Dambrath, and Luiren areas

spark haven
#

the forgotten realms wiki would do it

jagged apex
spark haven
#

dag

#

too slow

jagged apex
#

had a war apparently centered around something called a blood forge, the war even being named after the item, though they seem to have only been used in a novel and a video game

#

notable thing is seems their local practice of magic used mana, something that was not familiar to other casters in faerun, at least according to the wiki

#

hopefully that helps, if looking for more, would suggest seeing if you can hunt down and read the sources cited on the wiki pages on anything you are wanting more info on that is mentioned

grim siren
#

Those lands are in particularly part of the shining south. The utter east is a confederation of many other states but none of the ones that were listed.

#

The Utter East was dominated by the Five Kingdoms, which were ruled by the Ffolk and by the Northmen. They included:

Doegan
Edenvale
Konigheim
The Free Cities of Parsanic

drowsy wraith
#

it does, thanks

jagged apex
#

i must of misread the listed stuff on the wiki, my bad

fallow leaf
#

someone opened up some big things about 5e petitioners to me, id like to share
Basically, petitioners are any mortal that dies, they are locked to the outer planes, become a celestial or fiend, and cant be returned to life without high level ressurection
specifically says mortals, so any human, dragon, beast, plant, ooze, etc. that isn't an immortal being becomes a petitioner
they also dont lose their abilities, so that powerful dark mage you just killed is sent to hell in full power, maybe gonna be pushed around by some balors, but still arent truly dead
and theyre not confined to their specific outer planes, a petitioner can make its way to other planes, and any time they die, they can reconstitute in 100 years in a plane that matches their alignment, so a LN petitioner who dies can reconstitute in mechanus, arcadia, or acheron
Also nothing states petitioners become immortal or lose the need to eat, sleep, drink, etc.
This does have some big complications, since so many creatures across the multiverse die any minute

#

just thought it was an interesting way of reading that tiny blurb

white ravine
#

All I have to say is: The outer planes are infinite for good reasons

fallow leaf
#

also another little thing i noticed, a lot of sigil's guildleaders are kinda weak
like the head of the mercykillers, the group of bounty hunters of vigilantes uses the mage statblock, the leader of a giant group is CR 5

#

like, no one who leads the giant guilds of presumably the most powerful city in the multiverse isn't above CR 12

#

i think i heard that in 2e, they were much more powerful
like factol terrence of the athar was a level 19 priest, now confined to a CR 5 creature's block

#

little silly if you ask me

static blaze
#

ive learned hexblade patrons are a bit of a confusing topic in the community

#

about to start a new campaign, had a fun idea for a particularly clueless hexblade that believes he is a paladin and i ended up finding out that people have been kind of confused by what exactly the hexblade patrons are

#

i found some example patrons someone wrote up and i decided on charon of the river styx as my patron, due to an influx of life extending methods, (reviving, becoming immortal, etc) things have been slow on his end and the natural balance has been shifted, my hexblade took a pact to collect souls for him (he believes he swore an oath to slay evil doers)

white ravine
static blaze
#

if anyone has some deeper knowledge on any of these subjects, charon as a character in the dnd universe (apparently he was in 1e and 3.5e) hexblades, patrons, even just general vibes i'd be more than happy to hear any thoughts

magic jackal
#

5e hexblade is sorta just folding in a lot of different concepts which aren't exactly harmonious or consistent, hence the confusion

#

so long as your DM and fellow players are alright with it, you can play whatever character concept you want

static blaze
#

i just like lore stuff

#

ive gotten okays and everything so im good on that end

knotty dragon
#

I always thought hexblades were based on the cursed sword that posesses people and drives them to kill more people and grow the power of it's curse

#

from japanese myth

magic jackal
#

nope

static blaze
#

in 4e i believe you straight up specified what kind of patron your hexblade had

magic jackal
#

also what japanese myth is that from

static blaze
#

you'd be like a fiend hexblade or a fey hexblade

knotty dragon
#

Muramasa?

tardy wasp
white ravine
static blaze
#

i guess due to the playtest description for hexblade a lot of people got the idea you actually wielded your patron and so a lot of hexblade patrons ended up being "magic sword gives you powers"

magic jackal
knotty dragon
#

yeah but there's a myth around his swords being cursed

#

because they went into legend after being an antiwar symbol

magic jackal
#

I'm not sure that's properly a myth or just a popular belief around his swords

knotty dragon
#

well, anti-tokugawa

#

I mean what is a myth but the sum of lore and popular culture, especially when you consider the shinto belief that all things have small gods living in them

#

like culturally a sword had a god in it.

#

and these swords became known as the wicked blades

#

because of how much blood they drank in the war

static blaze
white ravine
#

There's also an official Hades

static blaze
#

charon didnt do anything to try and deceive my character into thinking he's a paladin, he just genuinely is incredibly stupid

knotty dragon
#

"Muramasa, they claimed, was a skilled but temperamental man who had transmitted his violent insanity into blades that now hungered for blood. They would drive their owners to kill, and if drawn they must taste blood even if it meant taking the wielder's own life." Neat right?

static blaze
#

we're rolling for stats but i requested that my int be set to 6 for my character to be sufficiently clueless

#

charon at this point is just like "well he's doing a good job as my warlock and he seems happy" so he doesn't feel like pushing the topic

knotty dragon
#

(to nail down the aforementioned ill defined hexblade issue)

#

you could maybe tap into each of these cursed sword myths to define said force in the shadowfell?

calm crest
#

Hexblades draw inspiration from Blackrazor of White Plume Mountain fame, which is in turn based on Moorcock's Chaotic sword, Stormbringer (and Mournblade).

static blaze
#

im not sure my hexblade has a cursed sword necessarily but he just kind of is granted a boon to become a powerful warrior and a proficient killer

knotty dragon
#

being a killer is a curse if you're surrounded by loved ones and peace :p

#

not so much for an adventurer, whose job is to launch themselves at dragons

jagged apex
# fallow leaf someone opened up some big things about 5e petitioners to me, id like to share B...

technically to my knowledge the amount they need to eat, drink, and breath at least, has historically just been drastically less than mortals, plus with extra planar creatures, intelligent and otherwise, is likely there is no risk of any shortage of food and drink until the natural heat death of the multiverse or the death of all mortal life, though it just as easily could be something they are leaving up to interpritation or are trusting/relying on the fandom to share with other players curious about those details

static blaze
#

my guy is an underling tasked to collect souls to balance the scales undone by the magic of mortals

#

sort of a bg3 jergal vibe with my charon

jagged apex
#

cuz to my knowledge sigil was never in any edition ever reffered to or implied to be the most powerful city in the multiverse, most important, yes, but not most powerful

calm crest
#

I'm presuming that 5e Sigil is using a similar design attitude to 5e Ravenloft, wherein the most important characters are not necessarily the most powerful.

magic jackal
#

You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell – a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their spellcasting.

Because the Raven Queen is known to have forged the first of these weapons, many sages speculate that she and the force are one and that the weapons, along with hexblade warlocks, are tools she uses to manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends.

#

That is hexblade, to be clear.

#

just so we're all discussing the same (very inconsistent) thing.

jagged apex
knotty dragon
#

hence my pitch to use pretty much any cursed weapon as a potential source of a pact if you agree to the curse instead of fighting it, and it's powerful enough. They're all made with the same linked magic, just different flavors (invocations)

calm crest
jagged apex
#

but even outside of dnd this is more so the case, of power and importance not being hand in hand or bound at the hip

knotty dragon
#

wow, it must really be upsetting for two hexblades to end up clashing weapons.

#

Like, your patron is just making you fight for... for what?

#

to cull weak blood from the pact?

#

to see which blade is crueler?

jagged apex
#

depends on the patron, the personality, and goals and motivations of that patron

knotty dragon
#

well, it's the hexblade in this case

#

for both

magic jackal
#

Do note the subclass in 5e makes it evident the patron isn't the blade but some shadowy force behind the blades, such as the Raven Queen

jagged apex
#

in the case of the likes of blackrazor, it hungers for souls, plane and simple, you don't feed it, it will take your's

magic jackal
#

What's more, not every action a warlock makes is dictated by their patron in every case.

knotty dragon
#

well yeah, you're still dancing for the queen then. or competing to see who blackrazor eats

jagged apex
magic jackal
#

"The shadowy for a behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks" I dunno man it's pretty clear

jagged apex
#

a hexblade does not automatically have any thing to do with the raven queen

calm crest
jagged apex
#

if anything they would have a closer likely connection to sharr, as she created the shadowfell

magic jackal
#

I didn't say automatically, my statement was abundantly clear that she's an example given by 5e

knotty dragon
#

Hold up

#

Maybe Weejas?

#

She declines traditional worship

jagged apex
#

what are weejas?

knotty dragon
#

Wee-Jas, Goddess

#

slaughter, magic

jagged apex
#

never heard of them

calm crest
#

Depends on setting—Wee Jas is from Oerth (Greyhawk).

knotty dragon
#

vanity death law

jagged apex
#

ah, that explains it, is not one of the greyhawk gods that have a history with the realms

knotty dragon
#

not like none have ever walked a plane

#

and she is a strage outlier even in greyhawk

calm crest
#

Typically, deities are constrained to their individual spheres.

knotty dragon
#

one of the only gods to decline all worshippers and grant no spells to her clerics

jagged apex
#

and unless they are shown, or out right stated to be a multiplanar power, such as the likes of Tyr, Bahamut, Tiamat, ect... is typically assumed they are confined to where they are worshiped normally, so clerics traveling to different worlds they tend to have to get a god of those domains to grant that cleric magic on their behalf, at least to what i am aware

jagged apex
knotty dragon
#

Well, that's what leads me to the arcane well, and Wee jas specifically having influence outside her sphere in her panoply and writeup

#

I've long suspected that wee-jas and the raven queen are the same entity, beat for beat

calm crest
#

Wee Jas does have priests.

jagged apex
#

funny enough, people tried worshiping Ao once, but stopped after they realized they were not being granted any magic, and the lady of pain makes you feel like you are having your skinn peeled off

knotty dragon
#

preists, yes, but she grants her clerics no spells

jagged apex
knotty dragon
#

and doesn't answer worship

jagged apex
#

as the lady of pain has to my knowledge, never so much as been implied to be able to leave sigil

#

if anything likely is something to potentially keep for your own continuity at your own table(s) as hi highly doubt it is the canonical case especially in published material

knotty dragon
#

"Most of the Raven Queen-related lore is my baby [...] I interpret the Raven Queen as basically being Wee Jas, albeit having absorbed Nerull's power and become a blacker deity".

- Erik Scott de Bie, co-author of The Shadowfell (from the WotC Forums)

"Several of the gods are drawn from other pantheons, sometimes with new names for the gods. [...] The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon's Hel and Greyhawk's Wee Jas."

- Dungeon Master' Guide (5e), p.11
jagged apex
#

oh, raven queen, idk why but i thought you said the lady of pain, but still sounds unlikely

knotty dragon
#

I mean, it's in the dungeon master's guide?

jagged apex
#

the raven queen even if filling similar roles, last i checked has 0 connections in any editions to either deity, let alone wee jas

knotty dragon
#

though here is a link to the creator saying it on official forums

#

"Most of the Raven Queen-related lore is my baby [...] I interpret the Raven Queen as basically being Wee Jas, albeit having absorbed Nerull's power and become a blacker deity".

jagged apex
#

i think you are taking the analogy too literally

#

as to me it sounds like they are using wee jas in terms of a role and what she stands for, to basically summarise what would otherwise be several sentences

knotty dragon
#

Post six he goes into depth and says

#

"Well what I was saying was that Wee Jas + Nerull = Raven Queen"

#

Is that clear enough?

#

I literally just guessed correct here and learned this today

jagged apex
#

well i can't even view the link without an account for that site, it just does not line up with the published continuity far as i am aware and still sounds to me like if anything you may be taking the analogy too literally

knotty dragon
#

it's the wayback machine? the free internet archive?

#

you can also google the quoted text

jagged apex
#

cuz even the forgotten realms the creator's version of the setting and what is published is not always the same

knotty dragon
#

but it's published in the DMG in pg 11 too

static blaze
#

so if we're running my charon as like a kind of "balance the scales" kind of figure in terms of death and nature do you think that would have him as more of a lawful neutral figure or do you think the fact he making pacts to collect souls puts him squarely in the lawful evil side of things? the conflict for him is that people are living too long/being revived going against the natural order of the world

#

im cool with either, either way as far as lawful evil goes he's not trying to like benefit himself or amass power but as far as his morality goes a soul is a soul and it doesn't matter where it comes from as long as the balance is restored

jagged apex
#

akin is used, in refference to two other gods and the literal definition of that word is "of similar character"

#

so again, i feel you are taking it too literally

knotty dragon
#

yeah and then to clarify I went to see what the guy who wrote that god's writeup said about it and linked that.

jagged apex
#

the full quote as given after the example of the dawnwar pantheon "Several of the gods are drawn from other pantheons, sometimes with new names for the gods. Bane comes from the Forgotten Realms. From Greyhawk come Kord, Pelor, Tharizdun, and Vecna. From the Greek pantheon come Athena (renamed Erathis) and Tyche (renamed Avandra), though both are altered. Set (renamed Zehir) comes from the Egyptian pantheon. The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon’s Hel and Greyhawk’s Wee Jas. That leaves three gods created from scratch: Ioun, Melora, and Torog."

knotty dragon
#

and he said "Well what I was saying was that Wee Jas + Nerull = Raven Queen. That RQ is WJ having been corrupted by enough of Nerull's energies to make her somewhat darker and more fatalistic. No longer does she believe in trying to put off your fate through undeath, as she sees the inevitability of death as a given. "

jagged apex
#

it is a comparison, what the original creator said of mashing up two dieties, one of which is not even in the 5e continuity to my knowledge, as the raven queen's origins were redone for 5e, does not automatically carry over to published materials

knotty dragon
#

yeah, so if she absorbed it why would it still be it's own thing in 5e?

jagged apex
#

cuz it is a different continuity

knotty dragon
#

that's the 5e shadowfell writer

#

I'm referencing

knotty dragon
jagged apex
#

no they did not

static blaze
#

think maybe i'll take my question to discussion since yall are in the midst of your own little lore sesh and i dont wanna interrupt

knotty dragon
#

"Several of the gods are drawn from other pantheons, sometimes with new names for the gods."

jagged apex
#

yeah and wee jas is NOT one of them

knotty dragon
#

The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon’s Hel and Greyhawk’s Wee Jas.

jagged apex
#

key word is AKIN

elfin cradle
#

Quick question, can the sword coast also have monestaries for other Gods like lathander?

knotty dragon
#

you're making akin do a lot of lifting here man

jagged apex
#

it is common sense

knotty dragon
#

when the creator and the preface statement literally say otherwise

#

I cited my sources, I'm gonna go quiet now

jagged apex
#

no they do not at least not the preface cuz again, that it is not being ment to say that just cuz she is akin to to those gods that she IS those gods, that is entirely different from what is worded

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if they did simply rename an existing god, they would have said so like they did with the earlier examples in the same paragraph

knotty dragon
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they specified the (renamed) ones with parenthesis.

jagged apex
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yeah, and she is not one of them

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and literally none of her lore in either edition mentions wee jas, and especially not her 5e one

calm crest
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It would be equally true to say that the Raven Queen is Hel based on the statement.

knotty dragon
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well, her creator mentions it. on wizards site, formally on the record as a designer, before specifying that he is speaking informally moments later to make a side comment

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Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 01 : 07 : 05

quote:Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

Where did revenents come in as opposing undead? I just read that she resurrects them to take revenge or to right the wrong (doesn't that sound a lot like The Crow? XD)

Well, it's possible to use undead to fight other undead, which makes the most sense with RQ's stated goals. Though that obviously doesn't mean that's all revenants do, you're right.

quote:But anyway, I don't know how Wee Jas and The Raven Queen can be the same. Wee Jas does like undead and is supportive of lichdom and we just aren't sure about how she really feels about undead.

Well what I was saying was that Wee Jas + Nerull = Raven Queen. That RQ is WJ having been corrupted by enough of Nerull's energies to make her somewhat darker and more fatalistic. No longer does she believe in trying to put off your fate through undeath, as she sees the inevitability of death as a given.

But that's just an idea I wanted to throw out there. Obviously, do whatever is best for you.

quote:Plus, what does everyone think about the new vampire class?

Informally (not on record as a designer), I like the concept rather a lot, and would be very interested to see more power options for the vampire, so not all your choices are made for you. Not that I have anything against the Essentials concept, but I'd like 2-3 choices on some of those levels, rather than just one.

Cheers

jagged apex
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it literally just says that is an idea they wish to throw out there

calm crest
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This seems to be in reference to 4e’s paring down of deities, which was completely retconned.

jagged apex
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ie it is their own specific headcanon which is not the same as published lore

knotty dragon
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I mean, it's not their headcanon when they wrote canon, the trope for this is called "Word of God"

jagged apex
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except they didn't

knotty dragon
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or are you unfamiliar with "jossing" and "ascended canon"?

jagged apex
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gotta remember, they have superiors you have to finalize everything before it goes to print

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meaning there are changes that often wind up getting made, keith baker and the eberron setting is a good example of this

knotty dragon
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and ultimately, they included a mention that hel and the raven queen and wee-jas are all the same goddess entity in the thing that went to print this edition. You're saying akin is a special magic word that makes em seperate, I say that up higher in the paragraph they imply that this is just another instance of a god having a different identity in another realm. like dualistic dieties that are two sides of a coin, one is the death lady there, the other here.

jagged apex
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and even ed greenwood is not safe of this fate, it is a part of how working with a company putting out a product works

jagged apex
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being akin to something is entirely different than being that something

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just cuz earlier they mention gods can take on different names in different realms does not mean they automatically or even always do

knotty dragon
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Yeah like, how you'd have to follow different laws in a different country. It's explained how they're akin, raven queen - nerull = wee-jas

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if you look back into the past, that's still DnD lore. After all it's not 5e lore only is it?

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the past still happened, that's still how they made that character

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it came from mashing nerull and weejas together in 4e

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and now in 5e, it's akin to weejas or hel

jagged apex
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no

calm crest
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4e lore has been nearly entirely retconned.

jagged apex
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while the past did happen, it does not mean they happened the exact same way, especially in the case of the transition from 4e to 5e

knotty dragon
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okay, but, raven queen wasn't a thing till 4e right? that's when the character emerged?

jagged apex
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it is when she was created

knotty dragon
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and when she was created, what was she made from?

jagged apex
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literally is just the first time the idea for the character was made

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she was a mortal woman

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in 5e, this was changed to be an elf

knotty dragon
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when she was created, what characters does her creator say he made her from?

jagged apex
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-_-

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someone please try to explain it to him, i am about at my wit's end and feel i am gunna wind up doing something stupid if i keep trying to explain it

knotty dragon
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even if they aren't the same they are literally intrinsically related. At the DNA level. Like Kin.

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from a memetic standpoint, the ideas are entwined

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wee-jas is the raven queen's momma basically

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and nerull her daddy

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conceptually

calm crest
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They have similar theming. One could just as easily say that all war deities are connected because they share a domain.

knotty dragon
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as far as the artistic objects that were combined to derive her essential flavor and panoply

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except I have a literal quote from the creator saying he combined them.

calm crest
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Again, conceptually, not literally.

jagged apex
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and again, no 1 person writes any of the lore

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there is at least 2 as they need it to be looked over and approved for publishing and more often than not changes are made during that phase

knotty dragon
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If I didn't have that I would yield in a heartbeat.
He literally claims responsibility for writing the raven queen, referring to the character as his baby.

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he is credited in the appropriate first appearance of the character

jagged apex
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a completely fictional character that multiple people have written about, with or without him?

knotty dragon
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that he created, and he alone understands what the initial idea was spun from yes.

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other people rewrote it later, but that is still it's origin, nothing to be done about it.

jagged apex
calm crest
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The real-world origin for a character has very little impact on how lore handles them. Melf may have been named after an abbreviation for "Male Elf," but that wouldn't be the canonical explanation for his name.

jagged apex
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i leave the evidence there for you, cuz clearly you are not willing to listen just cuz you have a quote from the what you say is the original creator, despite us trying to explain why that does not automatically make it credible to the published continuity especially when the quote literally reffers to it as simply an idea they want to throw out there

knotty dragon
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So you're denying the past existed because it was retconned?

jagged apex
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no, not at all, and no matter how many times i try to clerify or explain, even others try to aswell, you seem to be unwilling to listen

knotty dragon
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I admitted your akin line ages ago, you wouldn't even acknowledge that I had a point about the origins of the character

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all take no give

ionic rivet
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Okay folks - take a deep breath. This is a game. And if the conversation is no longer productive, time to move on to a different topic.

jagged apex
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cuz you gave a meta answer that was inherently subjective and merely an idea they said they wished to throw out there, as per your own quoting

jagged apex
ionic rivet
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So with that... let's move on

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What interesting lore have you discovered recently that made you smile?

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(Mod said move on)

jagged apex
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the more i learn about the illithid the creepier they get and sometimes even more horrific and i mean that in the best way

tame locust
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Purple spiders... live in magical fairy forests... but other giant spiders (Striders?) live in Drow caves?

grand jolt
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Question...... Are blue dragon's inbred? I have a character called Kaida, they are a blue dragon, and I decided to 3d-model them, and I started to notice, that all the art of blue dragons, kind of makes them look inbred.
Which considering that Blue dragons, are all about royalty, and politics, intellect and stuff, kinda makes since. I find it funny tho.
They have a underbite, smooshed face, weird shaped head, and a rhino horn instead of the usual dragon horns.
And if you look at older art of blue dragons from previous editions, they look more like a normal dragon, which I just find it funny.

But anyways, I'm currently trying to design a dragon, that look accurate to the current blue-dragons, with out making them look like king Charles the second of spain. so yea!

iron saffron
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I don't know what you're referring to since the 5E blue dragons look the same in 3E and 4E:
3E blue dragon: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c4/Blue_dragon_3e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190823131614
4E blue dragon: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c1/Blue_dragon_-_Lars_Grant-West.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090519091654
5E blue dragon: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/3/37/Monster_Manual_5e_-_Dragon%2C_Blue_-_p90.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200827214616

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Where did you get that blue dragons are all about royalty and politics? They live in the desert. I see no reference to royalty or politics in either the 5E MM or Fizban's nor the 4E Dragonomicon: Chromatic Dragons.

grand jolt
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I know, I was talking about 1st and 2nd edition, but then again, I can't really find many images of them, and the royalt and stuff is from the Treasury Of Dragons DnD book

iron saffron
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You didn't refer to 1E or 2E...

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Where is Fizban's are you citing from?

grand jolt
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Ehhh? Sorry... I said previous editions, I should've clarified.

iron saffron
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There are four+ previous editions. Lore change in each one.

grand jolt
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idk anymore, we can ignore the part of previous editions, I shouldn't of mentioned it. I currently looking in the book of treasury of dragons trying to find the part of blue dragons and royalty.

iron saffron
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You can definitely mention past edition lore but it would be great to mention the specific edition (there's 50 years of lore to decipher)

grand jolt
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well in this case, 5th edition, since i'm pretty sure treasury of the dragon, is 5 edition.

iron saffron
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It is. I don't see anything referring to royalty and blue dragons in Fizban's.

grand jolt
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I think I'm getting pathfinder lore, and dnd lore mixed up, but it does state that adult blue dragons will form dynastic bloodlines, and stuff. Ill keep looking, but I swear i remeber a part talking about a blue dragon ruling over some deserty city.

feral lintel
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Makes sense.

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Although there is a young blue dragon that did control a flying city in Dragonlance

grand jolt
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and I remember in one of the dnd books, their was a blue dragon using poly morph to engage in sky giants politics to make them war with each other and stuff.

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Idk what book it was from tho, I know my father enjoys it tho

feral lintel
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That was Imryth

grand jolt
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ahh

feral lintel
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She shapechanged into a storm giant

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and thats in Storm King's Thunder

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Blue dragons are such pragmatic dipsheets. I love them

grand jolt
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They are evil politicians It's funny to me. and that's actually the whole point of my kaida character, is to basically sneak into human territories and engage with their politics to make them fall under her control.

feral lintel
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Great LE villains. Great for both lawful, manipulative politicians and schemers

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Oooh!

grand jolt
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but it would be funny if the blue dragons, were inbred, I mean Just look at them lol.

feral lintel
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That would make a lot of sense unfortunately

grand jolt
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they have a underbite that can rival MegaChin from Phineas and ferb

feral lintel
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Blue dragons are the ones who are more likely treat their family as family, or even just actual allies

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LOL

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Oh god, now I can't get the image of a blue dragon mafia out of my head

gloomy cedar
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Blue Dragon: You disrespected me…

feral lintel
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you disrespect my family...

iron saffron
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That's beyond the scope of this channel.

feral lintel
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oop, sorry

grand jolt
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true

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anyways.... back to searching for this tiny bit in this book

feral lintel
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what specific piece of lore are you looking for?

grand jolt
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just the part of blue dragon royalty which i'm starting to suspect might be pathfinder im starting to mix up, I haven't play dnd in a while, and got my self caught up in pathfinder, so things are a little foggy tbh.

feral lintel
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ah

grand jolt
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Page 49, apparently dragons tend to be investors, which now i can't get the image of the show dragon den, but with actual dragons. i find it funny

jagged apex
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to be fair pathfinder did break off from dnd 3.5e, so is easy to get mixed up if playing a 3e or 3.5e game or doing research

grand jolt
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page 52 talks about dragon royalty and monarchs and stuff, but not really blue dragons, but dragons as a whole.

magic jackal
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Are you still pushing for the whole "Blue Dragons Inbred" notion or just discussing Blue Dragons at this point?

grand jolt
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page 86, talks about blue dragons connection, and adult blue dragons do tend to rule cities.

grand jolt
magic jackal
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Well the notion of inbreeding is not supported by the lore and the idea of trying to apply real world genetics that are for humans to fantasy magical creatures in a fantasy magical world that mind you are not even the same super type of creature (i.e. they're not mammals or reptiles or birds they're Dragons) based on random arbitrary details like "They look a little different than other dragons" is a bit ridiculous.

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Every dragon without exception looks dramatically different from the next.