h1-story-discussion

[reef thistle]

are rpgs slogs because you have to level up in order to beat a boss?

[sleek wigeon]

you can argue that by locking story behind clears you are encouringing players to engage with heat and that is fine and so what bruh

another system that encourages replay would be better

999358269422321774

[reef thistle]

this game already does that???

[sleek wigeon]

you can only argue for the consiquence to encourage replay being good but not that the actual condition of needing x clears being a good mechanic

[sleek wigeon]

yea burh r u dence

ive been saying that

[sleek wigeon]

if the rpg doesnt balance powerups in a manner so that you cannot reasonably beat a boss when you encouter it then yes it is a slog and poorly designed

noway you think that that isnt the case lol

[fathom knot]

mfw when the concept of a roguelite does necessarily include you dying a ton

it seems really wierd to say that is necessary for an rpg to be good

[reef thistle]

I'm sorry, but insisting "locking" story beat behind playing the game and calling that a slog is insane

Also, any game with hard secret bosses with content locked behind beating them would be considered a slog by your logic since you often need to grind a lot to be able to beat them

[sleek wigeon]

Generational strawman bruh

[sleek wigeon]

Yes? And you don't unlock content by winning but by exploring the game bruh

You can argue that requiring clears encourages exploration and I would agree somewhat

But inherently the requirement if clears doesn't contribute directly bruh

Can we normalise accepting that good products have aspects that can be criticised and improved

This is the last I care to say about this

[pseudo stump]

Aspects menus are bad, and Thanatos romance was a huge mistake

[reef thistle]

how, legit I want to hear how you would see an "improved" version of the "slog" of beating Hades 10 times to get persephone back, I am open to see your point IF you can show how this can be improved without sacrificing the story drama between Hades, Zagreus and Persephone

[reef thistle]

I mean, fair enough

[sleek wigeon]

It doesn't affect me because I don't care about the story

An example that I would care about is em 4 bring locked behind clears

Or higher heat being locked behind clearing earlier heats

Like it is in astral assent

[solar mango]

The Thanatos romance was super critical to the story

[sleek wigeon]

So astral could improve by being more like Hades in this aspect

[reef thistle]

this I agree, I think you should be able to recieve all the rewards if you can beat a higher heat than where you currently are

[sleek wigeon]

See

[solar mango]

Yeah that'd save a lot of time

[sleek wigeon]

So inherently it isn't beneficial to require clears even though it can be used for pacing and etc

[sleek wigeon]

Smth u would suggest would be to still require 10 clears but make them conditioned quests

Then it's not

"clear 10 times"

It's

Defeat Hades at his strongest

[pseudo stump]

You can feel the passion behind each press of the Enter key

[reef thistle]

omg, preventing you from receiving rewards corresponding to your skill level until you beat the lower dificulty is not the same as not giving you the credits unless you actually play the game

[pseudo stump]

Zagreus having his own Sisyphean journey

[reef thistle]

this boulder ain't moving

not anytime soon

[sleek wigeon]

I'd argue "actually playing the game" is 40+ heat since it's only then you gave to take pact options with consequence and learn the mechanics lol

[pseudo stump]

The boulder, it is Hades

[sleek wigeon]

• I would much rather have an ending locked behind more difficulty than just requiring more clears and going maybe the player will get bored and use heat kol

[reef thistle]

if it bleeds, it can die

[pseudo stump]

Does Bouldy bleed?

[pseudo stump]

The average player would never see the ending LOL

[sleek wigeon]

Could be like 10, 20 heat

[pseudo stump]

Average player struggles with 0 heat

[sleek wigeon]

Yes and the average player hasn't learned the game

[pseudo stump]

Average player can't learn

[sleek wigeon]

Quite

Anyway I do like engaging with a certain level of complexity and technically but there is no reason to demand that from every game

Hades is the classic low floor high ceiling type

[reef thistle]

I think Dionysus is a massive waste of a boon, and could easily be deleted from the game without consequences, but that's doesn't make it a gameplay flaw of this game, this is a me issue, a roguelike requiring you to do multiple run to gain access to content is not a gameplay flaw, if it's a slog, it's a personal issue and that's fine, if you don't like the gameplay loop of a roguelike, no one is flaming you, but it's not a gameplay flaw.

I hate the sims with a burning passion, but if it's anyone favorite gameplay loop, go for it

[sleek wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/memes-meme-memes-goofy-ahh-pictures-lion-roar-lion-king-gif-13220042870582311261

[pseudo stump]

This is worse than Zag + Than

[reef thistle]

uhh, I'm not good at spotting ai, but isn't this Ai generated?

[sleek wigeon]

Rouge likes are good because the only factor keeping you from winning is skill and knowledge

Some rouge lites are not as good because it is impossible (or very hard)to win without meta progression

Hades gets a pass because ff isn't that bad

And very fun acrually

[reef thistle]

but you just said that you didn't care about the story??? if you don't care about the story, what does locking the family drama between zag, hades and persephone matter?

[sleek wigeon]

But on your second or third run its alot easier to clear than the first

It also has the rouge lite Syndrome

[sleek wigeon]

It doesn't matter?

Skull what

I don't care

But like I said if you apply the same principle of locking stuff behind clears for things I do care about

More game play or difficulty

I would care

[sleek wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-watermelon-watermelon-cat-cat-crush-crush-gif-10209359194184036203

[reef thistle]

THE CATS

lmao

get crushed

[fathom knot]

https://tenor.com/view/mewing-true-facts-well-well-well-gif-8782214195066290816

[reef thistle]

I haven't gotten to the than relationship, is it that bad?

I though the relationship where well handled with Dusa and Megaera

[fathom knot]

My problem is up until the game starts they thought they were blood siblings and still grew up as siblings

[reef thistle]

OH RIGHT I FORGOT

[pseudo stump]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-scott-the-office-i-feel-like-all-my-kids-grew-up-and-then-married-each-other-its-every-parents-dream-gif-20644151

[reef thistle]

https://tenor.com/view/unhingedknight-cat-sweet-home-alabama-gif-698228683210814866

[reef thistle]

I mean, this IS greek mythology and zagreus is Zeus nephew, so I guess it runs in the family?

[pseudo stump]

Hm, I guess. It's just discouraging that it's there for the player to do

[fathom knot]

You could say that, if the games story doesn’t stay as far away as possible from that at every other instance

[reef thistle]

MFW I've been doing runs over and over waiting for chaos to give me the hidden aspect of the shield because it's the last aspect I need to finish the steam achievement, but this mf'er refuses to give me the unlocking phrase

GIVE ME MY BEOWULF SHIELD GODDAMIT

[zenith wedge]

Have you talked to them with the shield equipped first?

[reef thistle]

that... wasn't a requirement for any other weapon?

I'll try that

[fathom knot]

That quite literally is

Npcs need to comment on your use of a weapon while using it prior to giving you the dialogue for a hidden aspect

[reef thistle]

oh right, maybe I got the dialogue before I unlocked guan yu and forgot for most weapon

but yeah, since I did one run with the shield, it's possible I straight up forgot to go talk to chaos about it

I'll try it out

[reef thistle]

MFW I realized that due to poor timing on my part, I am now bottlenecked by nyx since she has to go through the dusa plotline, sysiphus plotline, Achille and Patroclus plotline and Orpheus and Euridece plotlines in order for all the bonds I'm missing to unlock

[reef thistle]

Nyx please, I am begging you, I like Dusa and all and it's sad that you fired her, but please just move on already I need to speak to you about everything else

at this rate, I'll finish the epilogue before I get nyx through all her dialogue

[reef thistle]

just got the epilogue and awww, it's a nice way to end the story of this game

also, that one picture of hades and zeus next to each other shocked me a bit since it's pretty much the only time in this game that I saw the brotherly ressemblance between the two

[sleek wigeon]

their builds are pretty copy pasted

a bit uncanny imo

[solar mango]

They're twining 😜

[sleek wigeon]

you would expect a bit of variation and not the exact same frame and musculature lol

[reef thistle]

thing is, I've seen so many people complain when media have twin that aren't similar enough, so I don't blame creator that just go f it and basically copy/paste them

[sleek wigeon]

ive never encountered ppl saying twins arent similar enough

[reef thistle]

but I would argue that the fact it wasn't noticeable for me until the epilogue is a good show of how different their in game sprite look

[sleek wigeon]

seems like a very dumb thing to complain about

[reef thistle]

have you BEEN on twitter/reddit?

goddangit

[sleek wigeon]

me when i participate in spaces that are not dumb

999358269422321774

[reef thistle]

but yeah, online discourse is 90% of the time about something stupid

[reef thistle]

I'm almost done with all the steam achievements

only missing one

after that, I'm taking a break from this game

it's good, but I'm starting to get slightly sick of it

just need to get the chtonic companion from achilles and it's done

[sweet epoch]

there's one thing I have to say about Megara

misinterpretation of devos whip it

[unreal dagger]

What

[raven pelican]

What is the best companion?

And why I can’t get all companions now ?? Lol

[zenith wedge]

Meg's

Also wdym on the 2nd point

Or do you mean the locks for ambrosia

[sweet epoch]

not me using meg's companion specifically on theseus

[zenith wedge]

Do you know how to hit both of them with meg

[sweet epoch]

yes

but I want theseus dead first

I don't like him

[raven pelican]

Yea trying to locks unlock

I have only skelly lol

[zenith wedge]

Is pretty much just keep talking for each of them

[raven pelican]

but main story finished is it problem ?

Unlocked all weapons 😅

I just know I can’t get anymore thanatoos

But at least I want to get Meg’s lock

Only have skelly’s atm

[fathom knot]

Not a problem

[zenith wedge]

to be specific each character has a certain favor that you gotta do before being able to gift ambrosia
you can find these on the wiki too

just so happens that some like meg's are in short "just keep talking"

you need to get specific dialogues but besides playing more you can't rush this

[raven pelican]

Yea have to restart save again

This is bad

[lofty fulcrum]

we yes WE love theseus hate

[reef thistle]

I prefer killing Asterius first since for me at least, I can't dodge him with FO2, Theseus is free tho

[unreal dagger]

def the better strat most of the time

[topaz night]

Haven't played in a little while at this point but last I was playing I just tended pretty much beat them both to death simultaneously. Asterius just comes after you no matter what so is easy to get strikes on at the same time, and they both act as continuous annoyances until they die regardless, so it's faster and not that much harder to just wreck them both at the same time, sometimes you can finish them both off within like a second of each other without actively trying

[reef thistle]

See, the issue with this is that I suffer from a terminal case of skill issue, so that's not an option for me

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/413208939707105291/1125170294663946400/skillissue.gif

[thorny hearth]

Can I replay story in this game? specifically I want to replay bath scene with moros for meme material

[rancid quest]

wrong channel

but you can now infinitely gift ||bathing salts|| to NPCs in Hades 2

[sleek wigeon]

How to bath with skelle h1

[unreal dagger]

Say theseus in front of the mirror 67 times

[brisk harbor]

Well, got the epilogue. Hard to ask for more from a game that gave us so much but... I can't say it wasn't disappointing. Still 10/10 game. I'm asking myself to consider the difference between the narrative promise vs. the headcanon fan wishes. I don't think what I wanted was purely head canon. But maybe this is what art does. Leaves you wanting.

[shy saffron]

The credits or the epilogue?

[pseudo stump]

The Mary said epilogue in the first sentence, I think

[proven falcon]

what were you expecting

[sleek wigeon]

Artemis romance route

[proven falcon]

understandable

[atomic forge]

same here man, it's literally just a single slide of Zeus and Hades shaking hands plus some voice over, underwhelming as hell

all that work, just for.... this

there should at leave have been another slide with Demeter and Persephone, this whole thing was about them yet they don't even show up

[unreal dagger]

Yeah the epilogue being a PowerPoint slideshow didnt sit well with me

[sleek wigeon]

I was just pushing heat and got it passively3

[proven falcon]

same

but yea it was underwhelming

i was expecting to see the gods walk around in the house of hades

[brisk harbor]

A lengthy narrative scene, to be honest. A fully fleshed out banquet that takes advantage of all the resources I've dumped into approving the Great Hall's appearance. Seeing the gods actually inside of the home base, in person. Interacting with each other and with the home base staff like Nyx, Dusa, and Achilles. Watching Persephone's careful reveal play out. Hades has not spoken to his family in a very long time. I figured no matter how careful any of us were, eventually, the full truth would come out and it would lead to a huge confrontation between Zeus, Demeter, Persephone, and Hades. Hades, when it comes down to it, is worried and apprehensive of a full confrontation between himself and his family, especially Zeus and Demeter. Hermes and Artemis knowing more than they let on. The rest of the pantheon finding out they were misled by lies of omission. Greek gods being Greek gods, acting first and thinking second. And the only unifying factor in the situation would be Zagreus, who at this point has formed a strong connection with every god here and able to stand in the middle as the mediator with the same honesty, humility, and determination that allowed him to fight his way out of hell over and over to find his mother and bring her home in the first place. A conclusion to the central thesis of Zag working to address the broken, strained family dynamic that lies beneath the game's roguelike presentation.

I'm not saying that the way it resolved was the issue. I'm saying I wanted to see it, not just be told it. It probably would've taken them a lot more money and time to fully realize such a scene. But that reality doesn't leave the epilogue any less disappointing. I would drop $30 on an Epilogue DLC though, I'll tell you that.

[proven falcon]

completely valid i agree

[pseudo stump]

$30 is crazy though

[brisk harbor]

I'm just saying I'm aware that it would cost them money and I am will to invest in art that I enjoy.

[supple garnet]

I hate skelle i got a bone to pick with him

And he is a weirdo every time he sees zag he has a boner

Too far? Too far

[ebon dew]

Türk yok mu

[charred fog]

@unreal dagger if we want to discuss about Orpheus and Eurydice I suggest we do so here

[unreal dagger]

Right

Like oh no, he messed up after he literally went to the underworld, managed to convince the literal god of the dead, all of that to save you. No honey you dont get to be mad at him

Moving it here then

[sleek wigeon]

I would be mad too

Bro literally had to not do one singular thing

[unreal dagger]

I guess we have different views. Like yes, he DID mess up. But that doesnt take away from the fact he even tried to begin with

Like it'd understand if he was mad at himself, sure. But not eurydice

Ungrateful vibes

[sleek wigeon]

Ig it's if you want to look at it from a consequentialist or deontological perspective

[charred fog]

My guess is that this is all about a relationship broken by a single misunderstanding

Which is, in my opinion, why Zagreus cares so much about reuniting them. He knows they are still in love with each other, and that everyone does mistakes. Both mortals and gods.

[unreal dagger]

I just dont think eurydice had any room to be mad at him thats all. If it was his fault that she died at first, maybe. But afaik thats not the case

[charred fog]

Yes, Orpheus did a mistake, a big one. Does he deserve to be sad forever because of one mistake? I'm the kind of person who is opposed to eternal punishment and I think growing beyond your past mistakes should be the goal of every form of afterlife

[sleek wigeon]

He isn't owed forgiveness just because he didn't mean to mess up

[charred fog]

Not what I said, of course he deserved punishment for what he did, trying to violate the natural order of cosmos instead of just being patient (because unlike the majority of mortals, Orpheus actually knew there was an afterlife). But I'm glad Zagreus made sure he didn't suffer forever.

[sleek wigeon]

He could have just gotten over it

If she is so ungrateful he has literally forever to realise that

[charred fog]

I don't think Orpheus sees Eurydice as ungrateful. Actually, he feels guilty for what happened, it's his fault and he knows it

He wants to be with her, he's not expecting apologizes from others for what he did

He doesn't even asks for a second chance!

[proven falcon]

Who ISNT opposed to eternal punishment 😭

[charred fog]

More people than what you think.

Very scary people.

[proven falcon]

Very religious people

[charred fog]

Even in greek mythology I find the concept of Tartarus to be unfair. Because there is no such thing as an eternal crime, so there shouldn't be eternal punishment.

Which is why I'm glad we can free Sisyphus. Yeah clearly the guy was prideful and greedy in life, but the point is that his pride and greed have ended

[unreal dagger]

FAREWELL, TO ALL THE EARTHLY REMAINS

[charred fog]

But I admit that of all the souls in the House of Hades, Orpheus is my least favourite. Not because I don't like him, but because there has to be a least favourite

[unreal dagger]

As lovely as she is, I think my least fav has got to he dusa

[charred fog]

Dusa is not my favourite because I think she has the flaw of being a work-a-holic (yes, I consider that a flaw) but...ok, this is not completely related to the writing of Dusa, but I appreciate what SG did with her. In most of video games, when it comes about romance, every character involved in this them can be attracted to you. But SG decided to trick us : for most of her bond, we are lead to think that Dusa has feelings for Zagreus, but turns out she hasn't. "Yes, sometimes people will straight up refuse a relationship with you"

Also, I have a question because I may have misunderstood a situation. ||About the whole situation of Nyx firing Dusa, we learn that it is actually because Dusa overworked herself. But the games undertone it could also be because Nyx found the relationship inappropriate between Zagreus and Dusa. Is that so? And if it is truly just because Dusa overworked herself, did Nyx warned her before firing her?|| I ask because I get the feeling that on this case, Nyx was straight up cold and unfair.

[sleek wigeon]

It's kinda based

I kinda don't care that ppl "have the capacity to change" or whatever

If we pretend there is an objective morality I don't think it's unreasonable to set a line where actions are bad enough to warrant eternal punishments

[charred fog]

Maybe that's the source of disagreement between us : I don't think there is such a thing a objective morality. If you come to the universe and ask the question "What is good, what is bad?" the universe will just answer "What the hell are you talking about?"

[sleek wigeon]

"pretend like there is"

Meaning I dont think so either

[fathom knot]

😈 meee

[sleek wigeon]

But you would imagine in a world where there are gods that is not out of the realm of possibility

[proven falcon]

Wow you are so cool and edgy

: ✋

[sleek wigeon]

I am cool indeed

[proven falcon]

It's completely unreasonable, the entire idea is to minimize total suffering

This is the opposite

[charred fog]

Well that's not a topic I will dig in on this server but I am a very atheist person. Let's say my views on religion have been very influenced by authors such as H.P. Lovecraft

(I know the guy was, from a certain point of view, an absolute trash man, but I appreciate his views on the nature of the universe)

[proven falcon]

Maybe I'm coming from too much of a negative utilitarian mindset

[sleek wigeon]

Why is that the goal

[proven falcon]

What else would your goals be

Everything boils down to that

[sleek wigeon]

I like cathartic justice

[sleek wigeon]

If you are a hedonistic utilitarian sure

Like I am

But that isn't nessiairly true or valid in anyway besides vibes

[proven falcon]

It's not difficult to arrive at logically

[sleek wigeon]

Love craft was such a chump

[charred fog]

Well as a person of color I really, really don't appreciate his takes on black people. But I still consider that his art is interesting and should be teached at school

[sleek wigeon]

There is no reason to ansett that pleasure is morality positive and suffering is negative aside vibes

[proven falcon]

What about the part where you can literally physically feel it

[sleek wigeon]

I as an individual feel that way but there is no reason for that to be true

It is beneficial or detrimental to the individual but that doesn't tell you anything about ethics really

[proven falcon]

I'm not talking about ethics

[sleek wigeon]

Only if you decide that 1 individuals have moral status and 2 pleasure of individuals with moral status is positive can you make the utilitarian argument

[proven falcon]

1pain hurts and should be avoided -> decide against eternal punishment which is essentially infinite pain

What does this have to do with morality

[sleek wigeon]

The basics of Kantian philosophy I think would be much better for schools

[charred fog]

That's maybe because I live in France, but we already discuss Kant

[sleek wigeon]

Because you are saying "should" which is fundamentally a moral topic

That 1 pain hurts cannot be used as an argument that you ought to avoid pain

[charred fog]

(Even though I'll admit, our schools are terrible at teaching philosophy because we learn about it very lately, around our 17s-18s, and it's only for one year)

[sleek wigeon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem

You cannot logically arrive at " ought to avoid things that hurt"

Without ofcourse the acceptance of another ought premises, but then you have just pushed the problem back one step

[sleek wigeon]

What is your favorite ethical model

[charred fog]

Well, quite hard to decide because all of them have their flaws. I used to be a consequentialist but now I'm not so sure about it anymore. What I know for sure is that I'm neither utilitarian nor a moral absolutist like Kant was

[sleek wigeon]

I think a combination of virtue ethics and utilitarianism is pretty practical

[charred fog]

I didn't truly study the ramifications of virtue ethics as of yet, for now my knowledge in philosophy is more about the nature of power (Machiavelli) and determinism (Spinoza)

[sleek wigeon]

😭

What do those have to do with anything bruh

Those aren't ethical models

[charred fog]

I will reformulate : ethical models are not my favourite topic in general philosophy

I still find them interesting but I didn't take the time yet to study them all

[sleek wigeon]

I think determinism is quite silly

[charred fog]

Well that's also because I'm very materialistic, I believe there is nothing beyong the realm of raw matter, so my views on freedom is that the human mind cannot escape the laws of physics, which are very strict and deterministic

[sleek wigeon]

Regardless of "the nature of reality" individuals (presumably) experience the perception of freewill and and act accordingly, it kinda doesn't matter if their actions were determined or not

[sleek wigeon]

There is no reason to believe that a materialistic system would not be capable of free will

Its just complex decision making

If you can make one decision why not many

[charred fog]

If we are to pursue this conversation I suggest the #off-topic-discussion

[proven falcon]

Y'all study philosophy

I just stare at the ceiling before sleeping

[sleek wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/google-gif-24342982

[agile spade]

It's fun that Athena and Ares are the two probably most hostile to working with each other and yet have maybe the best duo boon of the bunch.

[glad granite]

yet if it's limited to physics, then theoretically you could predict it given perfect equations, models, and data, which is why certain definitions of free will cannot stand
particularly, the Libertarian Free Will framework which defines free will as the ability to make decisions partly without previous influence
I support the compatibilist view which defines free will as simply being able to do what you want to, which decouples it from determinism and as the name suggests makes it compatible with determinism.

[glad granite]

-# handsome guy ;3

[glad granite]

rule util is one of my favorites

[sleek wigeon]

I don't find determinism super convincing

[glad granite]

Elaborate..?

I mean everyone has their own views

so I'm not saying it's bad

[sleek wigeon]

I will agree that laplace demon seems reasonable on the face of it but just because it sounds reasonable doesn't convince me that it is the case

The things that we are able to predict as of now are more macroscopic

Space travel and such

[glad granite]

Well yes, but that's because we don't have perfect data

[sleek wigeon]

But you can't predict turbulent fluid dynamics

[glad granite]

chaos theory

you'd need perfect measurements

[atomic forge]

I see you're all philosophy majors, what's the difference between determinism and fatalism

[glad granite]

and sure you could point to Heisenberg

and say that perfect measurements are impossible

and I'd say (that) that's also reasonable

[sleek wigeon]

And I see no reason to believe that you can predict everything with "perfect data"

[glad granite]

There are reasons, like almost everything in physics so far being predictable

[sleek wigeon]

Perfect data doesn't exist so you are just extrapolating what we can predict with the imperfect data to a so-called perfect one

You cannot prove that the trend will hold true

[glad granite]

fatalism is the view that something outside of human actions determines it

like regardless of your actions, some things are "fated"

[sleek wigeon]

But I'll gladly accept it if you show me some math

A simple induction proof

[glad granite]

exactly... but the universe itself has perfect data

whether we can measure it is irrelevant

[glad granite]

induction proof of what?

what would the base case be?

[atomic forge]

isn't determinism the same, all the atoms collided in this exact way, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, it's actually out of my control

[glad granite]

What?

[glad granite]

yeah, but it still depends on human action

yes, the human action depends on other things

but it's ultimately still a cog in the machine

while fatalists believe that YOU don't matter because everything is fated anyway

which i don't believe

also should we take this elsewhere?

[sleek wigeon]

I will cook up a well formulated passage

[glad granite]

alright uh "handsome bro"
cool display name

[glad granite]

no, not really.
What chaos theory shows us is that a small deviation in initial measurements can cause a large disturbance later on. This is where the famous "butterfly effect" comes from. We cannot predict turbulent flow for this reason. If we theoretically had perfect measurements of every atom in the turbulence, we could then use our models and the predictions would hold. The problem is in the chaotic system where particles end up all over the place, so the computational complexity increases way too much for us to actually compute it.

[sleek wigeon]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSK0-W88C64VvVzGTiUOrqSyxPMJoQD45d-48-GmG8g_5PvWGdPEWWqMIHpyJxcBdEmZ-YepJzJsBBQ/pub

https://tenor.com/view/apples-howyoulikethemapples-coyotemedia-gif-22455425

[glad granite]

ah so you're arguing that as data improves the quality might improve asymptotically

so you might never reach perfect predictions

[sleek wigeon]

It goes from “as we get more data, our predictions often get better” to “therefore, with perfect data, everything would be perfectly predictable.” But that is an extrapolation, not a proof. Seeing a pattern hold for many cases does not logically establish that it holds in all cases.

[glad granite]

perfect data can solve a lot of issues in our current physics system though

[glad granite]

yes that is true

[glad granite]

but it's not as simple as that; if you had perfect data you could circumvent many unpredictable aspects of physics

you could predict the trajectory of a double pendulum perfectly for eons
same with the weather

although for shorter a time

and models would be much easier to perfect

because our data is inherently flawed and stopping us from using our models to their fullest potential

[sleek wigeon]

physics being probibalistic is literally already established

Bohr - Einstein much

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr–Einstein_debates

i see this as evidence of the absese of perfect data

[sleek wigeon]

and again, even if there was

[glad granite]

and I mentioned, you could go the heisenberg uncertainty route

[glad granite]

sure... but then free will falls apart too

the universe might be mostly deterministic with random deviations from time to time.

[sleek wigeon]

this is not an arguemtn for free will but an arguemtn against determanism

[glad granite]

oh alright

[glad granite]

so do you support a random universe?

[glad granite]

anyway I'm not a huge proponent of determinism either

[obsidian stag]

Zagreus has ||A green eye from Persephone and a red eye from Hades||. This is a reference to the fact that he is homophobic

[forest rock]

We all get scared of ourselves every now and then

[obsidian stag]

And our teacher and only real father figure as well

[prisma dirge]

||ive been stuck on relationships for a while. Sent nyx to chaos but dont see her there. Also stuck on every olympian exept hermes, poseidon and athena.

Stuck on the three characters that are vendors.

Am i to do something specific ? Done many runs without progress.||

Help on this would be appriciated

[unreal dagger]

Yes, every character has a specific favor, in the wiki you can check each character, the favor tab, thats their quest

Some of them are "keep talking to them" but some others require you to do somethign

[summer hawk]

||How can he be homophobic when his mentor is gay||

[obsidian stag]

It’s an old heterochromia (2 eye colors) joke

[summer hawk]

Wow

[prisma dirge]

Hey. I need help with sisyphus i bought his thing in the house order but now i dont know what to do to progress. I cant find him in the world or the hub

[unreal dagger]

Talk to Meg, hades, nyx, they all need to talk about the sisyphus situation, also meg and nyx need to be at least 5 heart

If all of that was already and you said you bought his sentence thing already. Just keep playing until you find him on tartarus

Hes never in the house, only in his room in tartarus, you cant force the room to appear, its rng

[unreal dagger]

If thats all you care about, not the run, after fighting meg, if you didnt see him, consider dying in asphodel, not quitting, you need to die, and go again

[viral hamlet]

not sure if i'm understanding this correctly, but artemis gets shocked by offerings because she's lesbian and doesn't want a guy flirting with her, right?

[shy saffron]

I think she's just reclusive
Although that headcanon could work, come to think of it

[unique trout]

I was so relieved when ||Hades let me go on the 10th try|| lmao

[shy saffron]

||I had a wild build prepared that time and I was sad I didn't get to take it for a spin. Can't remember what it was though||

[forest rock]

||I was disappointed I didn’t get a win screen||

[forest rock]

||I know righttt it was such a strong build and not fighting him hurt. Made me thankful that they made you actually fight for credits roll in H2||

[rancid quest]

yea
while I was very happy ||hades let me go on the tenth run (I was basically dead in the water), the secret chronos rivals fight was so hype||

[atomic forge]

tbf, ||H2 does a similar thing by giving you infinite DD's||

[paper rover]

After gathering olympians is there any more things to do on hades 1?

[atomic forge]

Achilles' and Nyx's quests/prophecies usually take a long while

[paper rover]

I think first quest I complated was achiles one . I still did not get 2 keepsake I think

I took thanatos megera achiles 1 more but I dont remember

[proud wagon]

grind for the unseen one rank

[dry moat]

I just completed Nyx's prophecy after 100 hours and 30 clears. Achilles' was also a few clears ago. I haven't seen the epilogue yet

[vivid gyro]

do u guys know why i dont have the dusa icon thingy

[unreal dagger]

Cause you haven't bonded with her?

[vivid gyro]

i have given her like 10 ambrosia

[zenith wedge]

Stupidly late but dusa requires one more convo in zag's room for the bond icon after maxing her nectar/ambrosia gauge

[vivid gyro]

ok ty

[viral hamlet]

can someone remind me where hades goes to respawn whenever he dies?

[arctic comet]

The pool

Like everyone else

Where you come from everytime you die

[viral hamlet]

but why does no one ever see his body come out of the pool?

obviously the player can't, but there isn't much of a ruckus caused by the king of the underworld coming out of the pool. you'd think more people would be in disbelief

[unreal dagger]

Im pretty sure there specific dialogue from hypnos or meg saying they saw him walking out

[arctic comet]

Hypnos

[unreal dagger]

Yea

[pseudo stump]

I bet everyone is too scared to say much

[tame zinc]

There is explicitly mentioned disbelief but no one’s going to react much so he doesn’t lash out at them

[lilac sapphire]

Should've seen my face when I was ready to take Hades down one more time, only for him to say "nah I'm good" xD

[lunar surge]

Guys I feel like the dumbest person alive
Does Asterius and Theseus are "more than friends" ? I never saw the hints 😭

[pseudo stump]

Probably not

[fathom knot]

No

[unreal dagger]

Cant see the hints because there are no hints

[lunar surge]

Okkk I was scared for a sec

[vivid gyro]

ye

[sterile basin]

Hey I need help. Do I need to start over because I think I might’ve locked myself out of the store by accident see for Hades he’s the only one that has a lock on his hearts but only on the second one and the problem is that he currently is at the final boss fight at the game and not at his chair so does that mean that I am basically locked out of being able to get that heart and have to start over the entire game?

[regal dove]

no, youre fine. keep playing

characters dont always show up

hades especially takes forever to unlock so dont worry about it

[fathom knot]

You won’t be able to progress with Hades more until you reach the credits (at least for his hearts)

He’s also not “stuck at the final boss fight”, npcs just won’t be in the house every single time you’re there

[worthy maple]

So i asked how to unlocked a weapon aspect got lead here but im still confused

What's guan yu

Is the wakening phrase rng?

[fathom knot]

Hidden aspect for the spear

[fathom knot]

Pretty much all dialogue in Hades is

[sonic lodge]

how do you hry huan yu

get*

[fathom knot]

There’s a message pinned in this channel that tells you all the ifno

#h1-story-discussion message

[jaunty raft]

Question, is it possible to miss the little side story of Dusa getting fired? Seems like I haven’t seen it the past few runs and shes been giving me the generic talk lines for a while. Last I saw of it was zag speaking to nyx about being friends with her and that’s about it

[bronze knot]

Guys, I lowkey think hades kept on stopping us cause he secretly wants us to stay

I mean, if we get taken by the Styx again and again

How is it his problem

Ik the whole ransacking thing

But

He gave us a job for that at the end

I think he just didn’t know how to voice that after seeing Persephone leave he couldn’t let zag leave too

[neat crow]

New channel? Or am I just that blind 😆

[tired prawn]

New!

I quietly made it

[neat crow]

What are we considering spoilers? Revealing what keepsakes are? Narrative elements, I would assume

[ornate siren]

Heck new channel. I assume #h1-builds-and-combat also has spoilers allowed, but not discussion of them, and this is for story discussion?

[queen bridge]

aw first time i got to hydra

i got so close but it got me :(

[worldly pier]

eyy, 9 hours in, I got my first completion, sweet game 👌

[amber canyon]

Same

Also, that is one way to explain why you cant go further

"Its under renovation"

[woeful quest]

you can't escape cause hell just loops back in on itself

[bleak osprey]

that deltarune scene w/ rouxls kaard but it's "oh, i have more hell which is much harder to escape from" "can i see it" "...............no"

[cloud cargo]

since we are talking spoilers, I have a theory based on some mythology I looked up

Zag will somehow become Hades

through getting stronger

and will replace him

and Hades knows this because he once also was Zag so he is trying to stop him

[tired nacelle]

like eat him whole and absorb him into his body!?

[cloud cargo]

that would be a lot of steak

that dude is buff

[tired nacelle]

he really is! #thankyoujen

[frozen jolt]

we need to get that trending on twitter

[tired nacelle]

post pictures of every bicep and hashtag it

[frozen jolt]

everyone in this game is hot. she knows what shes doing and i love her for it

[cloud cargo]

well the Greeks sure knew how to sex so it is pretty relevant

I really would not want to be the guy going out with a girl that has Hades as a dad

[strong musk]

Paranoia about lads killing their fathers is a thing in greek myths so I won't be surprised

Though I guess at least Hades attempts to persuade Zag instead of lunging at his throat immediately

A bizarre idea crossed my mind yesterday
Zeus: Okay, we got you out cuz we hate your dad, go and assassinate him.
Zagreus: Uh no, I won't kill my father. Besides, I don't like paperwork. This is not my problem
credits roll

[left solstice]

one of meg's dialogue lines mentions something about how zag finding his mom would cause tension between hades and olympus\

[worthy crow]

I have the strange feeling that your ending depends on the gods you favor during the game 😃

and maybe in the later worlds, Hades would give you some of his power to try to get you back against the other olympus gods

[left solstice]

also in real world mythology, zagreus is the son of zeus and persephone 🤷

[strong musk]

Maybe that's literally it

Hades adopted Zagreus after Zeus disowned him

[left solstice]

or zeus had sex with hades' wife

[mossy tinsel]

zeus has sex with everything so

[strong musk]

We need to dig deeper

[left solstice]

and zag does mention ingame how he feels like he doesnt belong in the underworld

[mossy tinsel]

like what has he not had sex with honestly

[silent thunder]

I wonder if Greek mythos-based conjecture qualifies as spoilers 🤔

[strong musk]

Zeus once impregnated a woman in rain form

Literally a silver shower

He's insane

[mossy tinsel]

idk. i expect it to no go as Zag's plan. Transistor is a great show of not giving the player what they want in a sense.

or that, they don't give what people perceive as the end so..

[strong musk]

That could be anything

tbf

[left solstice]

assuming zeus is zag's real dad that could explain why hades kept his existence a secret

[strong musk]

It does beg the question

[left solstice]

wild conjecture at this point

[strong musk]

If Zag is adopted, why did he inherit one red eye?

[left solstice]

hmm

iunno, im excited to see how the story shakes out tho

[mossy vale]

So..its stared that persephone is zags mother,,,,,persephone is/was the daughter if zeus and demeter... who was..... borrowed.... by hades according to normal greek mythology.... this is their myth for why winter exists

[onyx spoke]

I like how we went from Bastion's completely covered people to transistor/pyre showing off a little bit of skin straight to aphrodite wearing nothing

[atomic forge]

XD

[amber canyon]

I mean, its aphrodite

[mossy vale]

and everyone on olympus is rather ademant that zag is the son of nyx... not persphone

[amber canyon]

This is the one case where her wearing something is wrong

Yeah, because thats what Hades told em

Its also what Hades told Zag

Anyway, does anyone have an idea who the narrator is in this story?

[mossy vale]

....so... tension could probably come from either A: somthing somthing "you told us persephone was dead" ... or B: "YOU HID MY GRANDCHILD FROM ME"

[onyx spoke]

the narrator is called The Storyteller in the credits but otherwise no idea

[queen bridge]

maybe it’s someone like homer

[mossy vale]

note: family was like... priority 1 in greek culture

[queen bridge]

or ovid rather

[mossy vale]

so..... hiding hte existacnce of someone's grandkid is... a bit of a nono particulalry among gods

[atomic forge]

narrator is just a random dude called steve

[amber canyon]

Yeah I imagine is some kind of storyteller from greek myth or history

[mossy vale]

another note.. demeter is a full on olympion as well ... godess of the harvest

[atomic forge]

So I have this feeling that our boatman will be more useful than just a shop. As in the first room when you escape you see a little pit that sticks out to the left which looks like a dock. So maybe fast travel in the future?

[queen bridge]

doubtful we’ll get fast travel in this game imo

[atomic forge]

mabey in a upgrade thing

[queen bridge]

fast travel between different zones that you need to progress through on your run kinda wouldn’t make sense in a dungeon crawler

[atomic forge]

but you would skip out on all the boons and stuff

like its a 1 way fast travel

like just skip a floor

[amber canyon]

Actually, yeah, it does make sense

Gungeon has it

[queen bridge]

like it would remove a lot of challenge if you could jump straight from the house of hades to asphodel

[atomic forge]

you wouldnt have any item tho

like no boons

[queen bridge]

then you would probably die pretty quickly lol

[amber canyon]

Actually, it wouldnt, neccessarily

At some point, the early floors just arent a challenge anymore

[atomic forge]

that

i rush trought the early floors but when i reach the second one i barely have any hp and stuff

[amber canyon]

Alright, Spear and Shield down

Now to kill the Hydra with Bow and Sword

[livid kiln]

@cloud cargo if you know your greek mythos, you'll soon understand that zagreus is many things. originally he's the son of hades and persephone. he's also the son of zeus and persephone (the creepy version but a reason why zag and hades have a tense relationship) or he's the sone of zeus and a lesser goddess. He's also the orpheic aspect of Dionysus, and supposed to inherit the throne after Zeus is killed

zag is a shady part of the big 12/13

so perhaps zag meeting his mother will result in him becoming dionysus? taking over hestia's place or something and thus rupturing the balance in the pantheon, etc

or demeter'll go crazy

[queen bridge]

i think it would be cool to have to fight through the overworld as an area, and see the war that’s supposedly going on there

[mossy vale]

also.. demeter would be a cool god to have with like... healing perks or somthing

[atomic forge]

i just want a lifesteal boon

[mossy vale]

would probalby come from either a hermes or demeter orb

[sleek cape]

Are all the hooded characters jus t place holder art?

[atomic forge]

yes

[sleek cape]

ahh coolbeans

[mossy vale]

gods of medicine (while it is kinda one of his lesser domains) and the harvest respectivly

[left solstice]

i hope they add more gods and boons

[worldly pier]

sword has a lifesteal boon on the thrust

[sleek cape]

Its kinda bad though

I havent been able to get use from it

Maybe Im bad

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[worldly pier]

nah, I skipped it too

[tawny flint]

Man I just beat the second floor and I want more so bad

[hexed scarab]

just beat the hydra

[ornate siren]

I think the lifesteal boon on sword is the only way for it to be useful

[hexed scarab]

holy balls was that hard

[worldly pier]

I beat hydra with sword xD

[hexed scarab]

you madlad

[atomic forge]

tbh now the challenge is to beat the hydra with a bow

[sleek cape]

I feel like numbers need to be tuned for things that arent the sheild

[hexed scarab]

i used shield lol, gonna work on other weapons now

[sleek cape]

Or maybe just nerf sheild

[worldly pier]

easiest run I had

[atomic forge]

and buff bow

[sleek cape]

Make everything dumb hard

[hexed scarab]

not nerf shield just tune the others so they are like the shield imo

[atomic forge]

then mabey buff the enemies

[hexed scarab]

so how the hades you beat hydra with bow

[atomic forge]

i didnt

but it would be a challenge

[hexed scarab]

@worldly pier

[worldly pier]

I did with sword, not bow

[hexed scarab]

yea sword

what boons did you have

[worldly pier]

aphrodite + athena

• double dash strike

[sleek cape]

Tbh I would rather everything be harder than make things easier

[hexed scarab]

and all of that is just luck right

getting those

[sleek cape]

Nerf sheild

[worldly pier]

yup, luck

[sleek cape]

although at that point I would tone down boss health by like 10-20% tho

[worldly pier]

I could practically facetank hydra

[hexed scarab]

shield isnt too op just need the other weapons to be a lil buff

well damn

those projectiles had me hiding

[atomic forge]

i just want meg to have half her HP but with armour

[hexed scarab]

with shield i beat him with 8 health lol

[worldly pier]

lemme highlight the kill

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/346527935

[hexed scarab]

goddamn man

guess sword is killer with the right boons

[worldly pier]

deflect + aphrodite dmg buff prolly makes anything viable

[hexed scarab]

i had athena dash + pos attack + ares cast

ares cast is nice for crowd control

can't remember what else I had

[north remnant]

Does the game end after you beat the hydra?

[hexed scarab]

if thats zone 2 i can't even imagine the other zones

yea

[worldly pier]

everything after is w.i.p.

[bleak osprey]

yeah hades is like "welp the rest of hell is under renovation"

[hexed scarab]

pretty much

[bleak osprey]

"come back later"

[worthy crow]

I like how they voice-acted that part 😃

[hexed scarab]

dont know what to do now lol, guess ill try mastering another weapon

lol yea its great

[bleak osprey]

someday i'll reach it OTL

[north remnant]

I made it to hydra once, and promptly died

I only had like 10 hp left

[hexed scarab]

i killed him on my second attempt with ok set up

had like 8 left then saw two burgers and was like well that would of made life easy

[ornate siren]

I killed him on my second attempt as well, and then got another clear the next run

[hexed scarab]

nice what weapons did you use

[north remnant]

Bow seemed pretty decent

[hexed scarab]

those using mouse do you use auto aim?

[worldly pier]

I turned it off

[ornate siren]

I turned it off after it made me unable to actually hit a dang pest because it was moving so fast it would aim where it is not where it would be

[atomic forge]

ive yet to annoy myself with the auto aim

so its still on

[hexed scarab]

for me it was the opposite idk couldn't hit anything far

my mouse icon flickers as well so that does not help

[ornate siren]

I have the flicker on Pyre, but not Hades

[hexed scarab]

whenever it moves the regular desktop pointer pops in and out

[ornate siren]

yeah

I have that for Pyre, its really annoying

[hexed scarab]

still do? is there a way to get rid of it or just hope it goes away in updates

[ornate siren]

still do, idk what causes it

[green jackal]

i've had my best runs (beating the hydra) with the sword and with the shield. is the general consensus that the shield and sword w/ the right boons are really good?

[atomic forge]

spear as well

[green jackal]

i haven't had much luck with the spear

[ornate siren]

sword is generally the worst weapon

shield is by far the best

some people are breaking the bow

and like 2 shotting the hydra

[atomic forge]

i personally hate the bow

[hexed scarab]

shield can suck if you dont get the right boons

2 shot hydra?

wtf

[green jackal]

i could see that happening

[atomic forge]

even tho it comes straight out of bastion where i loved it

[ornate siren]

they're just stacking all the damage multipliers ever

[hexed scarab]

so just lots of hammer

[atomic forge]

is it possible to get more than 1 hammer upgrade?

[hexed scarab]

yea

just luck really, sometimes I get to meg with like one or zero boons and with shield i cant kill her

[north remnant]

Really?

[hexed scarab]

yea lol was not a fun fight

[north remnant]

Meg is super easy for me now

Just dash away then back at her when she dashes at ya

[green jackal]

yall think the quick temper upgrade is good?? it seems a little underwhelming

[north remnant]

Then hit 2 time

Then dash away and repeat

[atomic forge]

quick temper is the dash one right?

[green jackal]

yuh

[atomic forge]

like more damage on dash?

cuz i find it good once you upgrade it a bit more

[hexed scarab]

what upgrades for mirror are worth?

[north remnant]

Mor edamage when you dash attack

I really like the revive one

[atomic forge]

i find all of them worth except the money one and the higher chance for epic one

[north remnant]

Works great with skull earrings

[hexed scarab]

i had money just to get the one decor that was 500

and yea revive is how i beat hydra

been using skull earrings as well

[north remnant]

I managed to crit meg for 450 with bow once

[sleek cape]

Lightning dash is so pog

It actually helps you deal with the brim stone type enemies so wel

been a life saver on my runs

[north remnant]

I just hate the blue crystal guys that shield everyone

[hexed scarab]

blue shields suck

[sleek cape]

Yep

[hexed scarab]

pissed of pos and had to fight nothing but crystals in zone 2

[green jackal]

ok the hammer upgrade where it adds 100% damage for each bounce + artemis crit let me accidently hit meg for 1920 damage

[hexed scarab]

blues and pink hit them over lava they just float and pinks just serf around was terrifying

[north remnant]

Rofl, is that for shield throw?

[green jackal]

yeah

[hexed scarab]

each bounce? man i read that wrong in my runs lol

[north remnant]

How does shield bounce work?

[hexed scarab]

idk seems random to me

[north remnant]

Like is it random or can you skillshot it?

[green jackal]

like when it bounces off of too many walls and starts going really fast, it just hit meg and like her whole health bar disappeared

[frozen jolt]

oh wow

[hexed scarab]

man now i want to try that

[frozen jolt]

wait is that a swear

[hexed scarab]

shield

bouncing around like the speed of sound

[frozen jolt]

... i edited it anyway i feel bad

[sleek cape]

they already have auto censors on this server so if it passess I dont think they consider it a swear

[frozen jolt]

hey guys how often did you get the option for 2 boons in the same room

[sleek cape]

Not very

[frozen jolt]

i know i know i just feel like proxybot is my mom and im disappointing her

[sleek cape]

but i avoid the trial of the gods

[hexed scarab]

depends on the run

[ornate siren]

its once every 3 or 4 runs or so

[sleek cape]

trials of the gods usually end up being a mess

[hexed scarab]

have gotten more than 1 before

[sleek cape]

so i steer clear

[frozen jolt]

how so?

[ornate siren]

I always take them

[green jackal]

you throw shield > it hits up to 2 mobs > starts to return to you, gaining speed for each bounce > if you dont get it for like 5 sec after it hits the last mob, it auto returns to you

[sleek cape]

I take them when i particularly confident

But

[frozen jolt]

does it actually affect your relationship with them for more than the one room or is it just difficult

[hexed scarab]

depends on my health and what i have i'll go for it

[tired prawn]

This is more #h1-builds-and-combat talk...

[sleek cape]

[north remnant]

I had that option 3x in one run once @frozen jolt

[hexed scarab]

lol we need more game for spoilers @tired prawn XD

[frozen jolt]

oh sorry!

[green jackal]

my b

[tired prawn]

It's all good!

[hexed scarab]

lol

[north remnant]

Red = devs?

[frozen jolt]

hey morgan can we please get an option to tidy zag's room

[sleek cape]

ja

[frozen jolt]

it hurts my soul

[hexed scarab]

red equals chick from transistor

silly

[north remnant]

Do you know who voices Dusa offhand @tired prawn ?

[tired prawn]

I do! Courtney Vineys

[hexed scarab]

since this is spoilers i guess how many zones are planned total?

[north remnant]

Sweet, ill have to check what all she plays in

[tired prawn]

@long portal knows her best

@hexed scarab We're not sure yet!

All our Voice Talent is actually listed in Options -> Credits already 😄

[hexed scarab]

alright fair enough lol can't wait, zone two is a sonofapyth

[sleek cape]

Im so excited for the god art coming out

[hexed scarab]

will have to check that out

[north remnant]

Ahh sweet, not at my pc atm bt ill check later

[tired prawn]

Fun fact: Cerberus is played by Amir's dog

My dogs are jealous

[sleek cape]

just a question are there gonna be any chars that will keep their robed hooded look?

[north remnant]

Are the last 2 weapon spots unlockable yet?

[tired prawn]

And want to be heads 2 and 3

[sleek cape]

Or they entirly placeholder

[north remnant]

Or is that to be releaes

[tired prawn]

@sleek cape I don't expect many will...

[bleak osprey]

i'd wondered whose dog voiced cerby!

[tired prawn]

@north remnant Not yet!

[bleak osprey]

aw that's a shame though bc i do like the hooded look for nyx

[frozen jolt]

is amir's dog in the credits

[hexed scarab]

is the model based off amir's dog?

[bleak osprey]

@frozen jolt yes

[frozen jolt]

YES

[north remnant]

Ahh, kay. Kept thinking id run into them during runs

To unlock lol

[north remnant]

Yeah, Nyx and Artemis wear the hood well

[tired prawn]

@frozen jolt She deserves a credit for sure

[bleak osprey]

nah, it doesn't really fit artemis imo

[tired prawn]

Yeah... I think it suits Nyx well

[bleak osprey]

if she's wearing a hood, how she gonna use a bow and arrow right

[tired prawn]

^^^

[frozen jolt]

please tell her shes very talented and i love her

[bleak osprey]

but for nyx? it's a Good Look

[north remnant]

Shes a goddess, she does what she wants

[tired prawn]

If I were the mother of darkness (which nobody can prove I'm not) I'd rock the Nyx look too.

[frozen jolt]

it also works for charon imo

i mean, can confirm, i dress like that

[hexed scarab]

can we get Zag to called Sisyphus Boulder Bro?

cause that dude is a bro

[north remnant]

Is there any plans to be able to upgrade heirlooms?

[onyx spoke]

Morgan is mother of darkness confirmed

[sleek cape]

Boulder bro

Im actually dead

lmfao

[tired prawn]

@north remnant If that's something you'd like to see that's good #hades-feedback-closed !!!

[north remnant]

Will do

Cant play just yet, but those patch notes look rough. Not sure shield will be worth playing without the deflect

Especially coupled with dmg lowered

[hexed scarab]

one way to find out

weapons will probably see lots of changes before release to get the right feel

[onyx spoke]

Shield's got mad knockback though

[north remnant]

Is it possible to get anything but the 75 coins from the blood gates?

[atomic forge]

i got darkness

once

[tired prawn]

Shield can still interrupt some attacks with its superior knockback

[north remnant]

Trading 10% hp for the worst room reward seems bad

[tired prawn]

But yeah... #h1-builds-and-combat

OMG GOLD IS SO GOOD

underrated!

[atomic forge]

eh

[tired prawn]

I'm doing it too!

Let's go to tactics for reals

[north remnant]

Eh, a god boon is worth 200 gold

I wonder if well get a chance to meet Dusa’s sisters

[frozen jolt]

how will i make my room look cool if i dont have gold, of course its good

[ornate siren]

Yeah I need to grind for that Aphrodite poster

[fair light]

@hexed scarab The boulder has a name in the game.

[frozen jolt]

i finally got the option to buy the aphrodite poster again but i was like 30 gold short...... press F

[shy frigate]

F

[ornate siren]

For reasons...

Yeah nah I'm not going to continue down this train of thought

[frozen jolt]

i look at it for inspiration to remind myself to be as beautiful as i can every time i go out to get murdered

rise and grind princes lets get these boons

[fair light]

Re: hooded portrait discussion further up -- while the hooded portraits do represent characters whose looks haven't been finalized, doesn't mean no one will have hoods eventually. We agree characters like Charon and Nyx most 'fit' with the current hooded look.

We have specific ideas about the designs of those characters and will get to them as part of our updates during Early Access.

Also note how Athena blinks her eyes while other characters currently do not; we expect to add more details like that in some cases or at least experiment with them.

[frozen jolt]

i really look forward for all the new character art to come!! the designs are amazing as always

[sleek cape]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[fair light]

yeah, w/ this game we wanted a big colorful cast as in Pyre, though the portraits and other details take time...! We appreciate your patience on that. Jen reserves the right to continue iterating/updating so you may see some of the existing designs get adjusted.

Hypnos' look came in literally just days ago -- he was the last to be updated

characters like Sisyphus have designs that are pretty far along but weren't polished enough to include at launch

[north remnant]

I was kinda surprised everyone is voiced

[lime radish]

(hello! not to derail the current conversation, but similar to upgrading heirlooms....) are we going to be able to access Hades' liquor cabinet and get buffs/challenges from different liquors, like in Bastion?

[bleak osprey]

hypnos looks weird but i love him

[north remnant]

Pleasantly so, though

[fair light]

Full speech was a goal we were very very interested in trying to achieve with this game as part of everything we wanted to do.

[lime radish]

The art looks INCREDIBLE and I was so delighted and surprised about how beautiful and far-along it is! Especially for the characters!

[ornate siren]

The designs are beautiful, and I love that I'm getting to help make this game amazing

[bleak osprey]

some people have criticised the voice acting but honestly? i love it

[north remnant]

The cast is amazing so far!

[ornate siren]

I love having everything voiced

[queen bridge]

oh yeah i love all the characters personalities in their voices

its very charming

[north remnant]

Dusa is my favourite, but Hypnos and Nyx arent too far behind

[ornate siren]

This game is a mix between roguelites and an audio book, and thats just amazing

[bleak osprey]

dusa's lil squeaky voice is precious and every time achilles talks i want to smooch him on his face, so

[frozen jolt]

i love the voice acting

everything about zag makes you think he would be anything but soft spoken but... he is...... and i love him

[lime radish]

Having everything voiced is like the world's best consolation prize for dying in a round; I may have to start over, but I at least have new dialogue lines to look forward to

[bleak osprey]

he's my soft spoken snarky boy and i adore him

[frozen jolt]

my sweet boy let me show you the world

[fair light]

We'll take feedback on the voice acting same as everything else though I've been pleasantly surprised overall by what I've seen so far. It can be difficult to separate feedback on voice acting from writing & creative choices overall. All of it open season I guess!

We will be adding lots of VO I'm sure in addition to tuning/adjusting/iterating on certain aspects.

[stray frigate]

i love the voice acting so far.

[north remnant]

I think Hypnos is the only character i dont like, but in a good way

Like, hes an annoying prick, but hes hilarious and i love him too

[frozen jolt]

i laughed so hard when i first talked to him after dying

[fair light]

@bleak osprey Glad you like Zagreus. Another thing about this game is we've never done a voiced protagonist. So that was a big deal -- getting him right.

[sleek cape]

I just realized this ^

you pulled it off so well

it feels natural

[fair light]

Gotta go for a bit but I'll be around more hopefully...! Thanks so much for your support of the launch -- means a lot!

[lime radish]

Zagreus? Is delicious. I've almost lost a room trying to hear his muttered cinnebts,'

[rugged shuttle]

Zag is such a great character he's empathetic and princely but has that rebellious edge to him

[lime radish]

**comments

[stray frigate]

Zag 's voice is awesome, he's a joy to listen to

[lime radish]

Take care!

[north remnant]

Later Greg,

[lime radish]

Thank you again for your hard work!

[sleek cape]

later

[ornate siren]

Thank you for letting us help make the game amazing, it's so much fun

[strong musk]

lol why is Hades asking for the building of a sundial?

Silly dad

The sun is on the surface

Next he's gonna crack a "Hi X I am dad" joke

[green jackal]

ok i just had a drink with dusa and i changed my mind about best girl. it's definitely dusa

[mossy leaf]

Godly dad jokes?

[dry comet]

"Hi, 'doomed to toil for eternity', I'm Dad

[onyx spoke]

"I think Persephone still misses me...but her aim is getting better"

[frozen jolt]

LMAO

[ornate siren]

Lmao

Aphrodite has some quotes

[hexed scarab]

@fair light lol heard him call his boulder something. Could sisyphus call his boulder "boulder bro.". I am a rock climber, specifically boulder lol so hence the obsession with the boulder

[mossy leaf]

He literally calls his boulder "Bouldy".

And I think it's adorable.

[hexed scarab]

thats right

couldnt remember but it made me smile

we need a bouldy plush asap

[onyx spoke]

bouldy pet rock

[north remnant]

Can anyone tell me what the 2nd, 4th, and 2nd to last heirlooms come from?

[hardy cape]

@north remnant you mean keepsakes?

Check your codex

I still haven't got Meg's yet, not sure if you can unlock it or not

[onyx spoke]

I have it

[north remnant]

I dont have them unlocked, which is why i want to know who they come from

[hardy cape]

How

[amber canyon]

One from each god

And one from each character in the hall

[onyx spoke]

just gift her ambrosia when she's in the lounge

that's what I did

[hardy cape]

When I talked to her she had no option

[amber canyon]

You can

The problem is

A lot of the time when you find her

She is talking with someone else

[hardy cape]

I've seen her multiple times now

[amber canyon]

You can only listen in those scenarios

You basically have to keep defeating her

I got it on like the 9th time I beat her, I think

[hardy cape]

I talked to her in the lounge (cafeteria? I forget) and spoke with her

No option

[onyx spoke]

weird

[hardy cape]

Might throw that up as a bug if it happens again

[bleak osprey]

second: ares
fourth: athena
second-last: skelly

[hardy cape]

What's her keep sake anyway?

[bleak osprey]

@hardy cape 200% damage under 20% health

[amber canyon]

High risk, high reward

Aka, never use it

[hardy cape]

RTSR

[amber canyon]

Except for Speedrun strats

[hardy cape]

speed run strats

Ok well I know my next objective

[mossy vale]

so... 1: the red tearstone ring effect of the skull earing is absolutly great if you can deal damage while far away .... IE literally anything ares offers

[twin pier]

My saddest part of playthrough so far was when the musician asked what song to play and then refused to play the song I chose

like wtf

[mossy vale]

2: meg has like a 50/50 chance to be talking with someone else when you get there and thus can't be gifted to

gerally hades (once) nyx or dusa

[amber canyon]

Wait, does giving them more gifts give you permanent upgrades?

[foggy moss]

not as of now

[mossy vale]

it seems to be a mesure of their disposition twords you

and unlocks conversations

i'm trying to do all of them for meg because im a machoist

so..... yeah it's kinda a painful moment when you get back and she's just talking with dusa about 🤷 and can't be gifted to

and.... well the best thing i've been able to use VS meg are skull earing boosted ares booned cast

they shred her

[hexed scarab]

can you pick a song that orpheus will actually play

is orpheus a man or woman? Voice sounds like woman but just could be very soft spoken

[bleak osprey]

man

[mossy vale]

orphious in mythology is male

[mossy leaf]

Well, according to the mythology

He is a guy

[mossy vale]

son of appollo ... really really good at music.. woman he loves dies

[bleak osprey]

achilles referred to him as a man, so 🤷

[runic terrace]

i suspect that theres a default voice actor for a lot of roles?

[mossy vale]

he goes down to the underwold to get her hades says sure but he can' t look at her till they get to the surface

[hexed scarab]

thats what I thought, guess he is just very soft spoken

[mossy vale]

... he then gets about halfway up before getting paranoid and looking back....

[runic terrace]

that soft britishy lady is a lot of people, i wonder if its going to be changed later 🤔

[mossy vale]

oh yeah... i'm not sure what i did to trigger it but orpheous will talk about how he "lost his muse" ... refferring to his loved one who he failed to save

[frozen jolt]

I’m so scared of getting killed by meg again

I just want my wall scroll.......

[amber canyon]

Im thinking he is just meant to be really soft spoken

[bleak osprey]

it's an interesting choice, i like it

[ornate siren]

I got the scroll

YESSSS

[hexed scarab]

wish we can get aphrodite to sign it

[full yacht]

I'm curious as to what will happen if you get gods up to level 10 relationship with gifts

once that's possible

[hexed scarab]

i did a whole build just for the scroll lol

i wonder what the lock things are with them and others

[full yacht]

I imagine orpheus will sing that song once he's higher

that they posted on their youtube page

[hexed scarab]

cause for doggo i am to the next thing but can't give him any more gifts

[ornate siren]

I just used the purse and focused on getting to 500 gold, but I didn't build for it because the further I get the better chance of finding it

It was a bit into asphodel

Sword flurry is insane

[hexed scarab]

i saw the song on youtube and started to hear lyrics then exit out cause i wanted to hear it in game first

[full yacht]

is it safe to say those robe character models are placeholders?

[hexed scarab]

yea

michael said in hades chat that sleep boi was just put in before launch of early access

[full yacht]

was hypnos in the underworld in greek myth?

I don't think nyx was either

[hexed scarab]

and there still doing stuff animation wise like athena blinks which is the only god that has some sort of animation when you talk to them so stuff like that as well for the others

idk i used to be into mythology but its been too long

they sound greek, could be just lesser gods no one cares about

[full yacht]

i know nyx is the goddess of the night

and one of the older ones

thats it

aside from the main stuff

[hexed scarab]

zag is one thats not as known, some say zeus's son others say hades son

[full yacht]

i think its safe to say in this interpretation he's supposed to be hades' son

[hexed scarab]

yea

at first i thought i stumbled upon spoiler then looked and saw zag hades son and figured thats what supergiant went with

[full yacht]

I didn't even know who zagreus was until this game

he's definitely a lesser known one

[hexed scarab]

be cool to get gear like armor over the course of the game that you can see on zags

like the lion pelt from hercules

yo knew weapon hercules club

[full yacht]

better for them since they can have more leeway with their interpretation

yeah

[amber canyon]

Im not sure he is Hades Son tbh

Its quite likely he is actually Zeus' son

[hexed scarab]

we know he is demigod

[full yacht]

it could be a twist or something

but he looks pretty similar to hades to me

[hexed scarab]

thats what i first thought

[full yacht]

i think the hair and red eye is supposed to be like hades, along with the outfit

while the green eye is peresphone

[onyx spoke]

plus wouldn't he have found that when he went snooping and discovered that nyx wasn't his mom

[hexed scarab]

i hope they dont go zues son twist, too easy to find and if you know the myth you know the twist

[full yacht]

yeah

[hexed scarab]

yea red eyes hades

[full yacht]

they shouldn't feel pressured to go completely true to myth if it hurts their story

[amber canyon]

I mean, I guess that would beg the question why his powers are based on darkness

[hexed scarab]

also like the fact that even though your hades son god of death your this kind spoken person

zag is bane

Literally born in the darkness, molded by it

[full yacht]

breaks meg's back too

figuratively at least

[hexed scarab]

be hilarious little cutscene finisher move

cant wait to fight minotaur and go through the labryinth

fits rouge like game pretty well

[mossy vale]

i'm getting increasingly fond of meg as a character

[livid kiln]

meg is bae

[mossy vale]

the amount of "i really wish i wasn't doing this sh##" gets more and more every time

[full yacht]

yeah she's alright

same she whips our boulder bro though

shame*

[livid kiln]

boulder bro is the funniest thing

[hexed scarab]

i like how you can talk to her after fighting her, like sorry for beating your one wing a** but heres a gift

i always smile whenever i see boulder bro

[mossy vale]

sisiphus was ..... special kinda guy in life

[livid kiln]

cuz albert camus wrote an essay on absurdism, offering the idea that sisiphus might just be happy to push the boulder

oh he was awful

[full yacht]

I don't know his myth

[mossy vale]

even before he did the crime that he's being punished for he had a habit of murdering house guests and taking their stuff

[livid kiln]

terrible king, awful husband

[full yacht]

sounds like a swell guy

[hexed scarab]

boulder bro is like that one movie who had the one dude like this astroed that turned out to be a giant thing of sh*t

[mossy vale]

and then his big crime came in 2 parts

1: ... he locked up the personification of death (thanatos) so NOBODY could die... this eventually attracted a lot of attention, namely ares ... because what's the fun in war if nobody dies

[hexed scarab]

boulder bro captured death?

[full yacht]

based

[hexed scarab]

boulder bro based bro

[livid kiln]

basically yeah

and then the gods got pissed

[mossy vale]

and ... just before thanatos was freed and he was killed sisi.. i'm just gonna call him sisy now because i can't spell greek .... sisy told his wife not to do anything funeral related just stick his body in a room... and then his sould was dragged to hades kicking and screaming

[livid kiln]

so they wrecked his ass

ig sisi is a bro, but in mythos he's a pathetic waste of space

[hexed scarab]

i cant spell greek either hence me calling sisy boulder bro

[mossy vale]

AND THEN he proceded to go to persephone, who was at this point queen of the underworld and say "look!, my wife didn't even hold a funeral this is horrible" and she proceded to give him another 3 days alive to get his life in order

[hexed scarab]

and sleep boi, Zag Efron

[mossy vale]

.... after that thanatos refused to go get him back until he died of old age and at that point everyone was aware of everything he had done

[hexed scarab]

one latin teacher i had had a boulder bro tat on her ankle to cover up the one zodiac tat that looked like a 69

[full yacht]

who do you guys think the narrator is supposed to be?

[mossy vale]

so no he's pushing the boulder... endlessly doing somthing completly pointless ... just like trying to defeat death

[hexed scarab]

zag can hear the narrator

[full yacht]

yeah, and he has some personality

[hexed scarab]

so its implied not just some narrator but someone

[full yacht]

less than other supergiant games

[runic terrace]

i dont know names but my pet theory is theyre being forced to narrate

[full yacht]

but its there

i would say the fates but the fates are female if i recall correctly