#off-topic-discussion
hallow escarp
hexed hollow
blissful charm
hey chums could i get some feedback on a watercolor i did
tardy anchor
sure!
blissful charm
so i have this (rip to the left leaf) and im wondering what to do on for the bg. im nervous abt it bc i like how it came out but i don't want to mess it up and have to redo everything
also considering not doing a bg but i feel like that could be boring
hallow escarp
Ohhh pretty
Were you planning on doing an actual motive for the background or just coloring?
blissful charm
ty! i was thinking just just coloring, im not really sure what i'd do for a motive
im assuming motive is a detailed background
tardy anchor
hmmmmm i think the bg should be a light color so it doesnt distract from the REALLY strikin flower
blissful charm
yeah that's what i was thinking, i dont want to overpower the flower
hallow escarp
Well yeah a motive would be anything but a simply colored background
An example would be letting the flower float on the surface of a lake or bloom in a winter garden and so on
If you just wanna color stuff tho, maybe try soft reds and purples to give it kind of a pastel vibe? Though I mostly do lineart so I'm not that familiar with coloring so just do what seems right and fun to you! π
blissful charm
ty for the advice!
fringe dirge
somber ferry
weird secondhand finds is a GREAT facebook group
raven jungle
Hey, does anyone know if Supergiant delivers posters for hades in europe? Wanted t o buy 1 but the sipping costs are +29$ extra :/
sacred field
somber ferry
@raven jungle
@opaque quail probably would know more about shipping logistics for the store, but yeah, unfortunately shipping from the US to Europe can be pretty expensive. :(
opaque quail
Hey Guzini! If you message me what items you're ordering + your region I can look into it for you. π
raven jungle
thank you!
tired scaffold
So recently I kind of went looking for a list of monsters seen in Greek mythology for something I had in mind, and is it me or does it seem like an awful lot of them are some sort of serpent/sepernt-like?
steel aurora
Maybe it's got a lotta snakes in Greece? 
tired scaffold
Like there's still a decent amount of other kinds in there, but it seems like there's too much snake/serpent stuff going on with them
upbeat scroll
It's because snakes are cool
There are actually two symbols that derive from ancient greece that are snakes around a staff
One of them has 1 snake
The other has 2 snakes
They used to respect snakes the right amount and now snakes are underrated
tired scaffold
There's only so many ways you can make serpent-based monsters unique from one another though
It doesn't help that a decent amount of the non-serpent ones also probably wouldn't make for good kaiju-style stuff either
normal basalt
@lavish fulcrum notice me senpai
cosmic void
Quick question, how tight is the profanity filter?
As in does it censor the colloquial name of fecal matter?
hexed hollow
It's quite strict, and yes it does delete that particlar word
It doesn't like peafowl's either. The bot must have a grudge against those birds
cosmic void
Ok, then that explains how I set it off. Ok, will watch that (but it still lets through damn, but that could be due to the names of certain enemies in game).
quasi depot
am a tired boyo ;w;
clear spruce
it's a bit overzealous in fact, reprimanded me for using a term similar to "flame repellant", but more accurate, once
velvet fjord
it lets through damn I think because it's actually said in hades
fringe dirge
steel aurora
Froggy
hidden steppe
pewdiepine on stream just called hades game of the year
fringe dirge
worst person, great point, etc
rough cedar
Even a broken clock is right at least once a day. Good publicity though. More Hades fans \o/
fair sun
y u guys seems to have some hatred for him
rough cedar
Mostly the racism and anti-Semitism.
fair sun
but its taken out of context
rough cedar
'It's just a joke' isn't an excuse.
fair sun
no, just watch the whole thing, he even prefaced it in the video about not condoning the thing in ths same video
rough cedar
It's not one incident, it's several.
fair sun
like
rough cedar
Well, the horrid sign he paid to have shown, the use of the n-word, the song with the line about Indians having poo for brains etc. etc.
fair sun
the use of nword is in a fit of rage, the indian song is clearly a joke (he dont write it, dave is the one who write it), and what sign are you talking about
rough cedar
He paid to have two kids hold up a sign that read 'Death to all Jews'.
'Fit of rage' is also no excuse.
fair sun
yes he already prefaced it that he dont condone that action before showing the clip, and he said in the interview that he thought it was so outrageous he thought they wont do it in the first place
damn bro, you cleearly never insulted someone in a video game
rough cedar
I've certainly never called anyone that.
velvet fjord
bro it's just a heated gamer moment bro everyone says it at least don't you get mad and feel the need to say racial slurs bro π
rough cedar
I have enough control to avoid saying racist stuff when I lose my temper.
fair sun
still cant avoid the filter tho
rough cedar
Nah, but that was for the 's-word' rather than 'stuff'.
I don't mind having to correct myself either. -shrugs- But discriminatory language is something I avoid throwing at people. It's gross.
fair sun
i think people just read too much into small flaws that clearly impacted their warped worldview as a whole, and they just wont change thir minds as ive already seen how people in twitter and facebook outside the gaming circle clearly shown disdain for him no matter how much impact he have shown before and after the whole controversy
velvet fjord
there's literally zero excuse for yelling racial slurs
people don't change their minds because there's nothing to change, the fact that he is racist is literally on video lmao
fair sun
clearly no, but calling him a clear cut racist for saying a racial slur when he lost his temper isnt a fair judgement
rough cedar
It's also been shown that 'joking' about racism helps to normalise casual racism.
velvet fjord
no one yells racial slurs as a little oopsie
rough cedar
Whether it's Jewish people, Asian people, Indian people, or black people... he keeps doing it.
fair sun
no one yells racial slurs as a little oopsie
@velvet fjord wdym no one
velvet fjord
wdym "wdym no one"
fair sun
Whether it's Jewish people, Asian people, Indian people, or black people... he keeps doing it.
@rough cedar where did you hear this
velvet fjord
if I stubbed my toe and suddenly exclaimed the n word that just means I'm racist man
fair sun
damn
rough cedar
I've shown several examples, the sign, the convos about Singapore, the song with the line on Indian people, the use of the n-word.
rough cedar
Separate incidents connected by racism.
fair sun
ofc, anything can be racism sure
velvet fjord
yes, racist things are racist
fair sun
this whole web of racism
velvet fjord
that is what the word means
fair sun
damn
rough cedar
Saying Indians have poo for brains and throwing the n-word around when you lose your temper at someone... yeah, that's pretty racist.
And the sign was beyond that, the sign called for actual violence.
fair sun
i already told you the explainations and you dont even read them
rough cedar
I did. I just don't believe those explanations excuse his behaviour or attitudes.
fair sun
then u thought it was deep rooted hatred for every race on earth?
velvet fjord
your "explanations" are just kinda "he was mad π’" or "he said it was a joke guys π’"
rough cedar
No, but it encourages people that do have those beliefs.
fair sun
yes he already prefaced it that he dont condone that action before showing the clip, and he said in the interview that he thought it was so outrageous he thought they wont do it in the first place
@fair sun not rly
rough cedar
'It's only a joke, I didn't really think they'd hold up a sign like that' is NOT funny. It's validating for people who do thing that calling for Jewish people to die is a good thing though.
You don't ask people to hold up a sign like that under ANY circumstances.
fair sun
he said hes not condoning it means its validating?
rough cedar
For the people watching who believe that, oh yeah.
fair sun
i bet u must also thought ok sign is a white supremacist sign
velvet fjord
its not lol
rough cedar
Not in all contexts, no. But 'Death to all Jews' has no ambiguity.
fair sun
so u think bcoz he dont support it, him showing the clip means hes supporting it?
velvet fjord
"I don't support killing all jews. However, I did specifically pay these people to hold up a sign that says kill all jews and will now show it for 'entertainment' value"
yes
he's a horrible being with horrible views
rough cedar
I think that he's an ignorant fool whose actions are rooted in prejudice and privilege.
fair sun
like i said he shows it bcoz he thought it was outrageous in the first place, he knows its wrong
rough cedar
He shouldn't have done it. No one should.
fair sun
then after all these year, you still taking hold of him of whats hes done?
rough cedar
It's not just 'outrageous', it's anti-Semetic.
I simply don't watch him, I don't give him my money, and I don't support him. There are much nicer people around, who produce content without racist jokes and other antics.
fair sun
and if those creators already collabing with him, will you support them?
grand prawn
this is a weird hill to die on
fair sun
@rough cedar
rough cedar
I wouldn't watch a collaboration with him, no.
fair sun
okay, then do you consider his collaboration with a whole bunch of creators that are considered wholesome on among us as a sign of support for rascism?
rough cedar
I didn't watch his Among Us things.
fair sun
i dont ask you whether u watch it or not
grand prawn
lol what is this even about anymore
tulip coral
Not to sidetrack the discussion, but I'm looking to make a career shift into Narrative Design for games, but I can't seem to find a careers section on Supergiant's website.
Am I missing something?
rough cedar
What humanbot said. I'm lost.
fair sun
ty to read #hades-faq @tulip coral
the question is simple, its not even hard to understand
grand prawn
but why do you care so much if someone doesn't want to support someone else?
@tulip coral their contact page says they're not hiring right now: https://www.supergiantgames.com/contact/ but entertainment companies often post stuff on their social media when they're looking for new talent
rough cedar
I consider some of his behaviour racist and dislike him as a person. I don't think every action he takes is racist because that's an actual impossibility. I have no idea what the Among Us streams included, or who they included, so I've no idea whether they include any 'support for racism'. I have no desire to find out.
fair sun
no, i dont care id they support him or not, but not letting go and still having that static view on someone without giving any thought that a man can change is just sounds so foolish to me @grand prawn
grand prawn
people can change but that doesn't warrant anyone's support?
fair sun
i sadi i dont care if he suppors him or not
velvet fjord
you seem to care a lot actually
rough cedar
You seem to care.
fair sun
i said he still persist that the guy is a racist now which isnt true
grand prawn
I agree w stranger though, there are so many other creators who are better and haven't done racist/anti-semitic crap and i'm more interested in supporting them
fair sun
you mssing my point
grand prawn
mmm i don't think i am, i'm just expressing myself
velvet fjord
you appear to greatly overestimate how much we care about him at all, let alone whether or not he has since resolved his consecutive heated gamer moments
rough cedar
He has a history of racist behaviour. I have no interest in watching him, not even if it means 'watching him evolve into a perfect cinnamon roll'.
fair sun
sure keeps thingking the same way forever i guess
velvet fjord
he said the n word on stream
you can't take that back
fair sun
chill out, u dont care
velvet fjord
you can't throw up your hands and go "i didn't mean it"
grand prawn
look at how much i've changed tho ~~~
velvet fjord
yeah maybe he changed because his audience is primarily 9 year olds now lol
rough cedar
If he learned, good for him. But I don't owe him some sort of pardon, even if I had a weird power to give one.
iron kestrel
you don't get praise for learning to be a decent human being
racit billionaires donate to chairties all the time but that doesn't mean they're good people
fair sun
for people who "dont care" u guys sure talks a bunch
faint panther
Of course, but in his case it's pretty obvious he is a nice guy.
fair sun
they believed the articles more man, just let it go @faint panther
iron kestrel
so like I don't know why that's being argued
faint panther
So you judge someone without knowing him, nice
iron kestrel
yeah sure
fair sun
even if mother theresa said n-word once, shes a racist
iron kestrel
sure
fair sun
is obvious
iron kestrel
you don't need to know a person to know they're racist
faint panther
He is from Sweden, maybe growing up he didn't think racist jokes were such a big thing. Im from Bolivia and we latinos make what you call racist jokes all the time and we laugh from ourselves. It just depends were you grow and how easily you get offended.
faint panther
Oooh that explains a lot
fair sun
a guy saves your life? too bad, he said n-word once 2 years ago, so u must spit on him and nevert alk to him again
iron kestrel
I would hope no one tries to save my life
grand prawn
you seem to really care about ppl's "rights" to saying the n-word dude
faint panther
At the end its just a word and im pretty sure that the people who got offended by that comment were 99% white people lol
iron kestrel
it's a word with history
fair sun
just like cracker, therefore dont say that ever
blissful charm
it's not anyone the n word once, he's said many racist and antisemitism thing many times. i mean he wore an iron cross during a video, which is a well known nazi symbol. like that is a symbol nazis used
grand prawn
but someone could say it and save the world WHAT THEN
iron kestrel
the fact that you are saying "n-word" and saying cracker should speak for itself
fair sun
it's not anyone the n word once, he's said many racist and antisemitism thing many times. i mean he wore an iron cross during a video, which is a well known nazi symbol. like that is a stmvol nazis used
@blissful charm the uniform is not nazis, do ur research
iron kestrel
also cracker is not racist
fair sun
which is my point
grand prawn
someone could say it and then end climate change what then my friends
faint panther
@blissful charm it was a British uniform I think but ge was cosplaying a nazi making nazis look ridiculous lol
fair sun
too bad hes a racist burn them
hallow escarp
I um... this is getting a little heated isn't it...
clear spruce
"Several people are typing"
grand prawn
agreed, the only heat i want is in my game ~
faint panther
Has someone at least seen his videos and not the posts from the media?
fair sun
they said they dont want to support him so they dont
grand prawn
who cares.. pretty sure he is still famous and rich it's not like he's dying on some stake
hallow escarp
I don't really see how we have to argue about Pewdiepie being racist or not...?
If they think he is, that's their opinion, if you think he isn't, then that's fine as well
fair sun
its a divisive topic in the first place, shouldve avoided it bcoz no one gonna change their minds either side
grand prawn
seriously
sharp grail
@faint panther please dont evade the swear filter
faint panther
My bad
grand prawn
anyways i can't wait to invest in clicky switches for my angry work emails
hallow escarp
Clickness
mild pelican
good thing i have been away
rough cedar
Mmm.
mild pelican
you know, looking back at the last year.. jokes aside, the world has been changed a lot
i almost forgot what it is like to go outside without biohazard suit
in any form people have it
clear spruce
It's gonna take quite a while longer for social life to return to something similar as before spring 2020, and even then it will never be the same because this will have lasted so long that many people will actually get kind of used to it, and probably will be more iffy about physical contact for a long time
rough cedar
At first, I loved the isolation... but it's worn on me more than I ever expected it would.
And it's been so poorly handled by so many governments. It's scary.
clear spruce
Yeah, it's surprising how much it can impact you even if you're someone who doesn't exactly seek company a lot
mild pelican
our hospitals are overcrowded.. people lie in corridors, on the floor..
doctors work all the time, don't even go home, get 1-2 hours of sleep
die on duty
and numbers of cases are growing and growing and growing
rough cedar
Care homes don't have the equipment they need, which puts the most vulnerable people at great risk.
clear spruce
Funnily enough, going outside - as in, day trips to countryside-ish places, hikes, viewing platforms, that sort of thing - has been the most normal thing recently. Because it's easy to keep some distance, nobody wears masks, and the place looks just like it would any other year.
Exactly the reason I'm so thrilled at the recent 90% efficacy vaccine news... that still leaves a LOT of people who get it without protection (and of course it will take a long time to get it to everyone), but 90% is up there with the big ones. The flu vaccine achieves around 60%, while the classics like MMR are 85-97% and tetanus apparently virtually 100%. So 90% isn't perfect, but it's impressive for the short time it took to develop it. Here's to hoping that it's not only effective but also safe and reasonably cheap to produce...
mild pelican
i just hope politics wouldn't get in the way
in our country they proudly presented a new working vaccine in august, and now want to make it mandatory for everyone
ofc, noone cared that mortality rate of that vaccine is 30-50%
grand prawn
what's the name of that vaccine?
clear spruce
don't worry, politics absolutely will get in the way. and greed
grand prawn
or what company made it?
mild pelican
Sputnik V is one of the most famous variants, i guess
clear spruce
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-vaccine-candidate-against BioNTech/Pfizer made it, and it has the charming name "BNT162b2" (the one I mentioned)
mild pelican
they basically skipped all the testing
grand prawn
wait you're talking about the one from pfizer that has been in the news? i haven't read anywhere that it has a death rate of 30-50%
where is that coming from?
mild pelican
nono, i'm about local vaccine from my country
well, "working" should be enclosed in quotemarks
but still several countries are looking into possibility of producing it, if it will be proved successful
real shame
grand prawn
ahhh... yeah vietnam committed to buying that vaccine from russia too
i was like can you guys wait a little bit, the covid infections there are under control..
mild pelican
looks like the only way to deal with covid is quick and early lockdown
it can make an impact on economics, but not that great, as a long fighting
we've missed the opportunity, unfortunately
and it's hilarious that there is no quarantine still.. people were just told to stay home and wear masks
but all the problems with their jobs, working plans etc. they will undoubtedly have, people will have to deal with themself
so people go to work, to studies, to markets, wear masks or don't, and numbers keep growing
fourth time i've went out this year.. seriously, it's like we all ended up in another world
childish fears and OCDs now became valid
well.. what i really wanted to say.. Kojima is a genius
mild pelican
i don't have netflix sub, unfortunately
dry stratus
high score is good
rough cedar
When scientists come to politicians and say there's a problem, the politicians should debate solutions to the problem... not whether there even is a problem while people just... die. It sucks.
grand prawn
BDG is all i need for video game content lol
lost sphinx
ello
primal viper
Reminder that Asexual people exist and are valid
And if anyone says otherwise, I will break their goddamn kneecaps
blissful charm
baby gorl
primal viper
Awwww, cute!
blissful charm
i love her so much π
primal viper
She little baby
fringe dirge
tranquil bay
wow my stomach churned, thank you
that is an awfully uncomfortable image and concept
broken moth
Now THATβs what I call a new feeling of soda beverage
wide falcon
Carbonated E G G
mild pelican
magic sentinel
i have owls similar to those in the background
(but also oh god she even posed for the photo so pure T-T)
icy jolt
mild pelican
i have owls similar to those in the background
is it possible to take a look? ovo
faint panther
i like to play a game called microwave roulette, its where i go pee while the microwave is on and i try to get back before the timer gets to 0
magic sentinel
@mild pelican https://imgur.com/aPx9zMp not really identical but similar, yes
i found some more similar at a convention but didn't buy them
dry stratus
uh oh balenciaga... that can only mean πΈ
ive been looking at fashion to buy in the future because all my clothes are Not Aesthetic atm and buying sustainable fashion can be tricky
a bemusing number of sustainable clothing brands sell stuff that just looks like an upcycled rug π βοΈ
however, I did manage to find this, and everything really is cake, I guess: https://rommydebommy.com/shop/aqua-funfetti-cake-purse/
clear spruce
I think you're looking for #h1-story-discussion
hexed hollow
@dusk hawk please use #h1-builds-and-combat or #h1-story-discussion for spoiler related content of Hades, this is the off topic section of the discord ^_^
Or #h1-discussion if you use spoiler tags ^_^
tranquil bay
@limber walrus sees you on steam, hm
tranquil bay
that thread with that very overly frustrated 250 hr person lul
limber walrus
ye Β―_(γ)_/Β―
tranquil bay
i like their claim that more people have beat 32 heat than stumbled across the ending
very funny
fair sun
how
tranquil bay
cause the entire reason theres no achieve for the last skelly statue is bc high heat gameplay is beyond the skill range of most players. but getting more into that rather than the thread itself would have to go back to the hades channels
just thot the thread was funny
also found out moments ago anti electricity propaganda apparently existed! makes sense i guess but wild to think about now of course
faint panther
this game is amazing
harsh nova
Where does slim jim source their meat
paper knot
Unus Annus.
fair sun
hey isnt that channel got deleted
paper knot
It is now
I hadn't been there for any fo the ride
i appreciate it nevertheless
Welp, thats that, time to go back to playing hades!
hallow escarp
Greetingsssssssssss
robust plaza
hallow escarp
You don't? How ssssssstrange
faint panther
Everybody asks SS when
But not SS why
fringe dirge
Twitter
unkempt shale
Y'know it's funny. I went to my friends house to discuss moving in with one another and we conveniently both forgot to talk about it and we just played Hades
Oops
novel wing
Does Supergiant sell Hades shirts or merch?
cinder tiger
wheres tha merch
cinder tiger
ooh i want those posters! thanks!
rustic canopy
yoo anyone recognise the name gunthorian?
quasi depot
dogs are weird if ur a girl
fair sun
what why
north pulsar
hello
neat rain
sudden torrent
verified/partnered are pretty much the same, just that verified is more for the game dev companies and such while partnered is for content creators and such. https://discord.com/partners
this page pretty much says everything needed.
fringe dirge
final nova
@quaint thicket i can give u crits about ur art here or whatever if you'd like
hexed hollow
It's also worth noting a discord server can be both a partnered and verified
polar tendon
hey
um
is there an emote server with all the little Hades stickers as emotes?
because i've seen people react with ones i don't have here
hexed hollow
Caitlin will add them here when she can, there where a couple that where slightly too big (file size wise) so need to be edited
I'm assuming you're talking about the Hades animated stickers @polar tendon
hexed hollow
I know what they are ^_^
polar tendon
reractions here #fan-works message
hexed hollow
That link just asks me to log into discord
polar tendon
weird
for me it teleports me to the place in discord
i will take a screenshot
oh right can't share images here
derp
hexed hollow
My guess is that those stickers are quite new so they're on steam for now (and private servers, even though that shouldn't really be happening, it's just almost impossible to enforce)
opal brook
where do the hades ishposts go?
primal viper
IDK
frigid mist
hallow escarp
And the doom talk should prob go into #video-games me thinks
opal brook
primal viper
Oh good to know, thanks for telling me
opal brook
did i like all of em? nah
but some i def wheezed a lil too hard over
raw niche
opal brook
i didnt know adidas was pronounced a-dee-DAS
i thought it was uh-DEE-duhs
...
obsidian timber
I'm surprised the goddess Nike isn't in Hades
They coulda given her some sportsy clothes as a reference to the company named after her
Because
Nike is the Greek goddess of victory
zealous moon
i love hades
dark harbor
Hewwo I just came here for Theseus cuz words on the street that he's cool
obsidian timber
Um
Language
dark harbor
:3
fringe dirge
word on the street is wrong
dark harbor
Oh yeah I edited it lol
zealous moon
i love the soundtrack
fringe dirge
he's LIKE a himbo, but he sucks
strange cedar
Who? Theseus?
dark harbor
yee
strange cedar
What did the poor boy do to deserve this harassment 
hexed hollow
#h1-discussion ^_^
peak juniper
hello
im new at the game
any tips?
new as in I beat the bone hydra and died to minotaur
faint panther
You should to the Hades channels and ask there.
peak juniper
ok
frigid finch
glacial token
Shaggy and Scooby always run away side by side when fleeing in terror from a monster. If a Great Daneβs running speed is 30-40 mph that means Shaggy is the fastest human alive and beats Usain Boltβs world record of 27 mph.
fringe dirge
the power of weed and extreme fear
clear spruce
r/theydidthemath
obsidian timber
I-
So what you're saying is
Shaggy go zooooomm
Maybe he's secretly Red's child and just always uses the Jaunt() function and the Jaunt() function alone
hollow moss
things are so bad in the US rn, I'm at a loss, so effin sad
don't want to be volatile here, but good lord
:(
kindness and compassion go out the window
eff
true totem
Whue
obsidian timber
Trans Visibility Week!
Not trans but I am gender fluid, so like
I can be a bit visible I guess?
lament halo
I see you, trans people
Thou art visible OwO Hello
I was forced to add the OwO because the Sauron gif looked hella intimidating, don't judge me
obsidian timber
Eye of Sauron but its a giant OwO
lament halo
A giant eye?
obsidian timber
Nono
A full-on OwO expression made of fire
minor niche
hello
obsidian timber
Given the size of your standard fish tank and the fact that he flew from the bottom of it to the top and out of it to the ceiling in less than a second, I'd say around 7m/s (Meters, not miles)
cursive pivot
hmm yese very pog
hasty brook
yo friends
minor niche
hello
hasty brook
who here wants some free games?
minor niche
π
hasty brook
i got humble bundle codes I already own
minor niche
idk what games are they?
obsidian timber
I'm interested too if it's alright
minor niche
im interested i guess lol
hasty brook
void bastards
yuppie psycho
Forager
all of these games i already own but have humble bundle codes for
opal brook
ooo
hasty brook
imma be honest. i'm surprised the filter bot let me say bastard
obsidian timber
I'd be down for Horace, SS, and/or Evoland.
fringe dirge
i liked evoland a whole lot
dry stratus
π is void buzzards still on offer?
grim cloud
Logitech G Pro X or HyperX Cloud Alpha Pro?
severe girder
Void Bastards is a good game
fast tinsel
Just wanted to hop in real quick and curse forever the person who posted the "He's called ZagreUS not ZagreME" comic in #fan-works because now I think about it on a daily basis and I just can't π
mild pelican
soviet anthem gets louder
tardy anchor
that was @faint panther's meme that i edited please dont curse us forever!!! 
faint panther
that was @faint panther's meme that i edited
@tardy anchor wait what happened GDYUDLS im scared now
tardy anchor
the "if your man looks like this hes your/our man" comics π
limber walrus
I missed the edit and the original, where are they?
tardy anchor
fanworks! search 'zagreme'
tardy anchor
tardy anchor
faint panther
or, here https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/456936596227358720/775042793126100992/image0.jpg?width=1070&height=1042
@tardy anchor my magnum opus.... actually i dont know if im using those words correctly HDGYGL
tardy anchor
gvjfvhjfvjh yesss
faint panther
oh jeez i forgot i came online to JOIN MY LECTURE lmaoo okay Bye Everyone im just dropping that cursed thing again and leaving.... just girly things ig i dunno
tardy anchor
BYE GOOD LUCK!!
limber walrus
Bai~
Okay. So I have work to do, food to eat and all of that.
But I also have a cat asleep on my lap.
reef summit
any good boss should accept "cat asleep on my lap" as a valid reason to not do said work x)
limber walrus
Hmm. Schoolwork usually doesn't, though, unfortunately :S
reef summit
"cat was asleep on my lap" should be the new "dog ate my homework" excuse
limber walrus
Since I shared one, I figure I might as well share the other
I have two cats. One of them (this one) moves like a cat but acts like a dog. (to be clear--she can't figure out how to climb up through the tower, and jumps from the chair next to it to get on and off)
The other one (I posted earlier) moves like a dog but acts like a cat
ionic mortar
ayy that one looks just like my Ghira
indigo walrus
I just realized something. We need a cat in next Supergiant game! We have a dog already, and other pets but there's no cat...
ionic mortar
we do need a cat for sure
obsidian timber
Apparently I'm not allowed to get up
I legit thought that was an owl for a second-
upbeat scroll
There is a cat in transistor
obsidian timber
Hypnos low-key reminds me of Jaskier
AKA a bi disaster-
hexed hollow
Those go into #fan-works @marsh nova ^_^
obsidian timber
To continue the conversation, the few Greek gods that can still be revered with few problematic actions or associations can only be seen as such due to societal views that have stayed, roughly, present to this day- hence the reason Artemis, Hermes, and Hades are seen as good whereas deities like Hera, Zeus, and Ares are seen as immoral due to societal views that have not stayed and are now problems due to changes in culture and morality.
lofty hazel
Hades seen as good?
Ya gotta be ribbin
I think this game is like the nicest interp of him.
obsidian timber
In the times when those stories were most prevalent, Zeus and Poseidon's actions with mortals were not seen as forms of sexual assault, but are today due to issues being brought to light relatively recently from a historical standpoint.
lofty hazel
Well actually
Its a bit of a translation problem
Rape meant something different back then
obsidian timber
Nono, what Zeus and Poseidon have done was indeed sexual assault, but it wasn't seen as a problem during those times.
It's less translation and more the advancement of culture and how people have begun being seen as equal in a higher majority than they had prior to the past couple of centuries.
jovial adder
I mean from what I remember Hades was like the most "chill" out of the three brothers in mythology
bitter, but he knew his place in the underworld
obsidian timber
The only thing Hades did that was relatively bad was a hand a lady an underworld pomegranate because he didn't realize he wasn't dead.
hexed hollow
#h1-discussion please ^_^
obsidian timber
Also, the underworld wasn't his place, the three literally drew lots
We're talking about the mythology, not the game.
hexed hollow
I misread nvm
obsidian timber
It's quite alright.
lofty hazel
From what I gathered from the Hellenism Community (Cause ya'know tumblr tags, witches are a thing btw but from what I gathered on that, most Hellenist don't like the "Wiccas")
The mythologies are just stories with the gods as characters to portray a moral or such. From what I understand. Like, no-one actually believes the Hydra existed.
obsidian timber
From what I gathered from the Hellenism Community (Cause ya'know tumblr tags, witches are a thing btw but from what I gathered on that, most Hellenist don't like the "Wiccas")
sad wiccan noises
lofty hazel
But they might believe in Heracles.
obsidian timber
The mythologies are just stories with the gods as characters to portray a moral or such. From what I understand. Like, no-one actually believes the Hydra existed.
Close. The gods were more created as a way of humanizing and explaining away numerous happenings, be it natural or not, and uniting people under a basic common factor under the stories they weaved. Gods were essentially made as a way to explain abstract concepts without having the actual scientific understanding of the concept itself.
lofty hazel
Although, this is purely from a video, he might have been real. Yaknow like how Jesus is(might? idk much about that one)
That's your veiw as someone who doesn't believe. But there are people who do believe.
obsidian timber
I am a person who believes in them.
lofty hazel
The one's who do made some of these stories
obsidian timber
I'm a Wiccan.
lofty hazel
And Im Hellenist, hi.
obsidian timber
I am religious and believe in numerous pantheons, but I do understand the reason pantheons exist as a whole and the reasons they were created.
lofty hazel
Mmm nod
obsidian timber
Anyway, Jesus is historically a real person, but there is furious academic debate over whether or not he actually performed those miracles, with a common belief that, embodiment of a single divine being or not, Jesus had a fairly rudimentary understanding of medicinal studies and efficient methods of agriculture, though there isn't too much documentation outside of religious texts to support this.
Basically the common viewpoint is that Jesus was Jewish Buddha who knew how to medicine
kindred crown
yeah jesus was definitely a real person the main argument is just whether what he did was real
lofty hazel
It was a Useful Charts video, I found it
https://youtu.be/NgK4fJ709Xo?t=286 If ya wanna
Its about Alexander the Great Family Tree
But anyways
Ps took a closer look at the comment 1.0, ya I see it. I still think moral plays a big role, though.
obsidian timber
Yea, the debate is more on his actual accomplishments and the legitimacy of them rather than his existence. Some stories like helping out that blind dude with some mud is thought to be a misinterpreted or mistranslated retelling of an actual event in which he used a medicinal remedy to assist with the reparation of a specific injury to the dude's eyes, rather than just throwing dirt on his face and miracle'ing him some rad new eyesight
lofty hazel
I love discussions like these! And mythology(+ history) in general have always been a passion.
tired scaffold
Side note but I'm saving that post you made in fan-works about what Zeus, Poseiden and Hades represent for personal reference
obsidian timber
One of the big disconnects with Greek mythology and how it's portrayed in modern media is that there are numerous retellings and variants of the same stories for the same gods. For example, in the older version, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone who Hera then sent of to be eaten by Titans. Athena managed to save his heart and with obliquely-leg-related injury, Zeus managed to regrow Dionysus from just that which caused him to be reborn, hence his theme of death and rebirth, whereas the later version described Dionysus as the son of Zeus and Semele, who got shmurdered before Dio was born and then the same obliquely-leg-related injury took place and Dionysus was born from Zeus, nixing that rebirth theme from before.
Side note but I'm saving that post you made in fan-works about what Zeus, Poseiden and Hades represent for personal reference
@tired scaffold Thank you! I feel flattered!
And yes, 'nixing' was a cheap pun.
lofty hazel
I always find the one with Semele as a little humorous cause then that makes Dionysus, Ares Great-Grandson and I find that hilarious for some reason.
obsidian timber
That's why in some versions of the stories, Dionysus and Zagreus are siblings whereas with others they're instead cousins.
It also creates the debated question of whether or not Dionysus and Zagreus are actually the same deity or separate deities with similar stories.
This overall leads to two portrayals in which Dionysus is either this semi-drunk tubular party dude who likes to visit the underworld from time to time or this embodiment of cyclicality and madness.
tired scaffold
Or both
lofty hazel
Why not both
obsidian timber
Yeah, the 'both' approach is my personal favorite.
tired scaffold
Dionysus, god of wine and terrible hangovers
lofty hazel
He crazy, but he's a fun crazy
obsidian timber
And death and rebirth and also madness and snakes and turning dudes into dolphins
tired scaffold
He's basically the Olympian equivalent of a wine uncle
obsidian timber
Interestingly enough, he started solely as a god of death and rebirth, the wine part was a later addition.
lofty hazel
Personally i'm not a party or even a drinker, I don't drink at all, but I like "wine uncle"
Haha
obsidian timber
He's basically the Olympian equivalent of a wine uncle
Actually he never started out as an Olympian at all. There's just records of him or Hestia being an Olympian at some point, although there's no actual canonizing story defining which, leading to a common belief that Hestia handed off her title as an Olympian to Dionysus due to his starting point as a semi-Chthonic deity.
tired scaffold
Which given it's Hestia, it doesn't seem out of place either
obsidian timber
Hestia's kinda just there
She's just vibin' in the corner half the time to be honest
tired scaffold
She's the rock everyone leans on
obsidian timber
Pretty much
Fitting given she represent hearth fire
One of the things people tend to forget is that the stories about Dionysus were literally made by some people as they were on literal drug trips as, at the time, wine consisted predominantly of fermented fruit, mainly grapes, and... hallucinogens.
lofty hazel
Haha
tired scaffold
Dionysus, god of LSD and acid trips
lofty hazel
Madness
obsidian timber
The belief was that this drunkenness was the drinker being possessed by the spirit of Dionysus, hence resulting in some.. unique, storytelling.
lofty hazel
Snort
obsidian timber
The actual process of making wine was also linked with Dionysus' old story of being born, reduced to a heart, and then reborn with more divine juice in him.
lofty hazel
Divine Juice
obsidian timber
Yes
That sweet, sweet, obscurity liquid.
And, due to how he was integrated into Athenian culture via the forced migration of Dionysia, a celebratory event themed around the cultivation of wine, junk-related injury as well.
tired scaffold
junk-related injury as well
this better not mean what I think it sounds like
obsidian timber
It does
Basically he said that Athenians who rejected Dionysus got their junks unpleasantly-interacted-with, so ya better like this dude if you wanna keep your bits.
lofty hazel
Weren't there like junk on poles or something
obsidian timber
Weren't there like junk on poles or something
That was an addition to the festival due to the junk-related-injury stories.
tired scaffold
Dionysus, god of blunt-force trauma to the junk
obsidian timber
Dionysus, god of blunt-force trauma to the junk
More uh
Imma do as much as I can to spare you details and not cause unpleasant imagery in your head and just say laceration-based
lofty hazel
Ah
obsidian timber
Yeah....
lofty hazel
Eunuch?
obsidian timber
Worship of Dionysus was heavily outlawed due to how it was mainly used by people burdened by society to escape their terrible state of living, which was very much not-liked by the people in power doing said burdening, leading to the re-integration process taking place at all.
Dionysus was predominantly revered by social minorities of the time due to how his story and symbolism represented that of an underdog of sorts.
lofty hazel
I've been following Odiko and they once said So Iβve heard from a few different sources that the biggest reason Aresβ worship in antiquity wasnβt exactly that he was loathed or hated...werenβt many times that the Greeks thought it was appropriate to sacrifice/pray to him... god worship back then was more a state affair than a personal one[...] The free men of Ancient Greece maybe had no reason to feel like Rage was appropriate, because their world suited them so well. What is there to be enraged about? (The slaves, women, disabled people, and immigrants might have an ideaβ¦) Just speculation, but I do wonder if he might have rigged a chord with the non-citizens more, and weβd never know it That was the shortest I could make it and still keep what im aiming for, but sounds similar, so I wonder if there is a credibility to that. https://odiko-ptino.tumblr.com/post/631060951682121728/thinking-as-always-of-ares-so-ive-heard-from-a#notes
How many gods not worshiped because the ones in power felt they threatened them or didn't apply to them.
obsidian timber
Like I said before, Ares embodies might and honor as well as comradery, not bloodshed, although he is most definitely violent. Athena, in contrast, represents skill, tactfulness, and wisdom as well as strategy.
She also has a theme of patience, hence her association with weaving.
tired scaffold
Also, Ares doesn't seem to have had any situations involving questionable consent, unlike a lot of the other gods in that pantheon
Which probably helps in his favor too
obsidian timber
Yeah. He more focuses on and is the root of the belief that war is vital to human advancement and is something that will always happen, albeit a tragedy, but not something to fault those fighting it for.
tired scaffold
Both sides of the same coin, really
Even if one side kind of has to be shared with Athena
lofty hazel
Alan Turning made the first computer to fight the Nazi code thing
If I recall right?
obsidian timber
Ares is more directly synchronized with the soldiers and the combatants themselves along with the art of combat and patriotism whereas Athena has a more intense connection with generals and strategists as well as truces and tactful skill paired with international connections, albeit on a much smaller scale between empires at the current time.
So in a nutshell, Ares represents the realities and glory of war while Athena represents the art of and mental strength required of war.
A channel that talks very much about mythology and what they hold in an entertaining way would be Overly Sarcastic Productions, who also covers history as well.
tired scaffold
I've seen them a few times myself
Not to the point where I've subscribed to them, but I have seen them
tired scaffold
i too also know about them through TV Tropes, there's no shame there
lofty hazel
TVTropes? I see Blue for the History, and Red for the Trope Talks so...
obsidian timber
Anyway, the basic gist of the Greek pantheon is that they're all representative of traits.
For example, when you look at Hera as just a jealous wife who murders people to get back at her husband for his infidelity, it's messed up, but when you consider that she is the goddess of rulership and having a bunch of illegitimate kids running around because of your husband's stupid shenanigans that will inevitably cause a big discourse with who is the proper heir to the throne, getting rid of those children to eliminate the issue altogether and tie up all the loose ends starts to make a lot more sense contextually.
And then you've got the mess that is Aphrodite
Which just...
Where do I begin with this dumpster fire of a deity
tired scaffold
She basically started out as Ishtar and then lost all the parts about ultraviolence
lofty hazel
Hmm, can't say I know much about Aphrodite. Being the goddess of love and I well... not into love. (Aro)
obsidian timber
I'd say she more embodies fickle love and sexual desire rather than meaningful relationships and attraction, given her constant infidelity and her terrible habit of hating anyone and anything she can't actively ship with something else.
tired scaffold
and as far as goddesses go I prefer Artemis or Persephone anyways
maybe also Nyx depending on whether or not it's the version from Hades
obsidian timber
Basically a bratty stereotypical 16-year-old who wants to get in the pants of every guy and gets visibly upset when she finds out she can't force Septiplier to be real
tired scaffold
Well, a lot of the olypmians tend to basically be like crazy teenagers anyways
Except maybe Hades who's basically the adult trying to maintain some semblence of order
lofty hazel
That arm hitting enter is angering me
obsidian timber
Hades is the tired older brother who's been having to babysit his entire family
Hera can also slot into this category if you go with the 'tying up loose ends' motive I described earlier.
tired scaffold
And then Hephaestus is the one everybody bullies even though he's done so much for them
obsidian timber
Hera is basically a wife and mother who has to clean up her immature husband's messes due to his lack of forethought.
lofty hazel
I think... Aphrodite is love. Love is fickle in general. I don't know much about her myths but I don't think Dite is bad. Love is a force of nature to be respected, it can hurt and ruin you.
But elevate and motivate.
tired scaffold
And it can be really weird and unexpected and unpredictable and such
obsidian timber
Anyway, a lot of the random things Aphrodite does can make a lot more sense when you stop and look at her origins:
Aphrodite was initially also a war goddess.
If you look at the conflict of all of her myths... it starts to make a lot more sense.
tired scaffold
Speaking of which though, I actually saw something earlier today that basically came up with a hypothetical revision of the whole Aphrodite/Hephaestus marriage in the vein of how the story about Hades and Persephone tends to get nowadays
obsidian timber
If you think about it less as love being fickle and more love being something that can be both good and evil and can lead to hate, it changes how she's viewed entirely and really starts to make you think about the heavy sexism apparent in her later portrayals as just being ditzy and terrible because she's a woman and 'woman who wants love is bad' was a pretty common view during ancient Greek times.
It also starts to contextualize that she wasn't cheating on Hephaestus with Ares, she was with them both at all times (Polyamory, perhaps?)
Ares being the male counterpart to her brutality and Hephaestus being the god of smithing and the production of armaments adds a lot more explanation to their relationship.
Basically, the only reason she's portrayed as a terrible and fickle goddess is because Athenians didn't like the blend of beauty and sex and war whereas Spartans were... well, y'know.
lofty hazel
Aphro/Heph/Ares is my 0T3
obsidian timber
lol
lofty hazel
I like the idea of them finding love together
tired scaffold
I've actually kind of had the thought of them being a polycule myself recently
kindred crown
wow are you a teacher or sth i didnt expect to come here to be so educated
i am enlightened
tired scaffold
I think we just have too much time on our hands more than anything
lofty hazel
Enlightened noises, those Ahhh's
kindred crown
i was super into greek mythology when i was little but my moms like the conservative christian who thinks kids getting exposed to other religions is bad lol (greek myths arent even entirely religions but as long as there are gods in it mom wont let me
obsidian timber
I'm not a teacher, I just do a lot of writing and worldbuilding, so symbolism is something I work with quite heavily
Plus, I'm on the spectrum, and things like language and history and mythology are some of my special interests.
I'm only sixteen, I'm not that intelligent
tired scaffold
I just have too much time on my hands
kindred crown
youre doing great, in whatever youre interested in bc wow
lofty hazel
Im thinking of Majoring in mythology
obsidian timber
Thank you, @kindred crown! That's very kind of you to say!
kindred crown
no problm!
obsidian timber
Anyway, the belief that Greek gods are more embodiments of traits associated with abstract concepts is one of the reasons for how I write them, such as Hera being rather calculating and methodical and mainly focusing on the bigger picture rather than just being jealous.
Aphrodite has a contrasting personality archetype with both brutality and detachment on one half of the spectrum with the other representing gentleness and devotion, meeting in the middle to make this wonderful blend on both definitions of love as well as views of passion and desire.
One of the big problems with how Greek gods are portrayed in modern media is that they're always just one thing with a single personality trait based solely on what they are the god of and not predominantly the actual myths surrounding them or their history.
tired scaffold
Assuming they even base them off traits from the actual myths to begin with
like Hades
who constantly gets portrayed as basically being Satanβ’οΈ despite the fact that he's arguably one of the most rational people in the entirely pantheon
just because he happens to share some details with the devil
obsidian timber
It's also people connotating the underworld with Hell, despite the fact that the Greek underworld was just the afterlife for everyone, and had multiple levels to it depending on how good a person was.
lofty hazel
Percy Jackson is really bad at this. Like I like Percy, and the musical got some good music, But Ares was insinuated to abuse Clarise so I don't read the books.(Ares design is pretty neat though)
obsidian timber
It's also the same thing of how the devil is always portrayed as evil for having an association with Hell, a realm where evil people go, despite his narrative connections more predominantly being with retribution and justice.
Yes, he introduced Eve to the concept of sin, but in the story he never made her do anything. He just explained to her why she could not take the Forbidden Fruit, merely explaining the rule that was laid out for her and giving her the information on why it was there- her taking the fruit was entirely of her own doing, as was her giving it to Adam. That story isn't supposed to say temptation is evil, but more that temptation is a dangerous thing and that the more knowledge one has, the more temptations they are subject to.
It's a story moreover on the ammorality of knowing- constants and existences are things that are inevitable but are not inherently good or bad until observed from the standpoint of humans, who have morality and therefore will determine whether something is good or not based on their own biases. Like how mosquitoes are seen as evil because they cause negative side-effects despite the fact that they're merely doing what they must to survive and are inadvertently causing that side-effect by proxy.
This leads to an explanation of the contradictions present in religious storytelling, most notable the Bible, as the stories are all their own narratives with their own meaning rather than an overarching plotline with a complete goal, hence the heavy dissonance between the portrayal of God in the Old and New Testament- the Old Testament is a collection of different stories written by different people more specifically documenting different things with a base connection to God while the New Testament follows Jesus' life and the subsequent aftereffects of it as well as this more benevolent portrayal of God as the primary focus.
blissful charm
the true use of my computer is cat bed
faint panther
hi
bronze lintel
Elo
wide falcon
I'm glad my brother's cat doesn't sit on my keyboard
he'd rather walk across it
upbeat scroll
Cat on keyboard cat on keyboard
What will they type
hallow escarp
π
upbeat scroll
β¨οΈ
ebon iris
@faint panther hello
ebon iris
<@456226577798135808> hello
How are you
ebon iris
How are you
Find and you
faint panther
How are you
i'm fine bro
hallow escarp
Whoa
ebon iris
Where are you @faint panther ?
faint panther
Where are you <@456226577798135808> ?
i'm in Tartarus right now
upbeat scroll
Is reply only allowed on certain servers? I can only do it here
upbeat scroll
Only super giant game fans are allowed to reply.... >:)
ebon iris
Just be patient and it will come
ebon iris
i'm in Tartarus right now
Steak Tartarus π
magic sentinel
If anyone is having a bad day remember that once my uncle catched my dog sunbathing like this
https://imgur.com/nfDZOvK
cinder charm
hey guys so... @faint panther is a scammer lmao
quaint thicket
wait what
faint panther
weβre handling it rn, thank you for the heads up
quasi depot
what happened?
rough cedar
One of the big problems with how Greek gods are portrayed in modern media is tha...
Thisssssss~ There are a lot of adaptations of Greek myths that tend to bend things too far, to the point where Zeus might as well be called Thor for all the resemblance he has to any Greek myths or stories.
I've seen a lot of stories recently that try to elevate Persephone's level of agency by making her marriage to Hades consensual and that's a hard thing to do while keeping anything of the original myth. Hades is not a soft, lonely boy who needs love to be happy.
quaint thicket
what happened?
scammers
marsh nova
@hexed hollow oh oops. Sorry 
I've never seen a channel for hades memes here so I thought they'd just go in this one orz
rough cedar
Fan-works might be okay if it's a SGG-related thing. -ponders-
thick orbit
OMG HADES ROLLING ON THE GOTY!!!!!!!
magic sentinel
@obsidian timber if i may sneak myself in this conversation because i like this discussion
Hades kinda opened my eyes on Aphrodite, for example. At first i didn't really care about her, i just brushed her aside as "the beautiful woman that is beautiful and horny because love and children-making"
But after reading her codex entry my mind was kinda blown because yes, she's the goddess of love, but that's a huge deal. Does anyone know how much can love be destructive? Not just speaking about broken hearts, in general. Hell this game would be nothing without her aspect
lament halo
I've been ignoring Aphrodite rather successfully in my 100 hours of gameplay time 
magic sentinel
I could be reaching because love is such a broad concept... but also they're gods they're supposed to be overwhelmingly omnipotent
(Although i think Eros is far more powerful than Aphrodite since he is love, Aphro is basically the goddess of Eros? Eros is just a personification? Like those humanized social medias drawings lol)
lament halo
Isn't Eros just her sidekick, the extension of her will so to speak
magic sentinel
Actually, you shouldn't! SG wasn't fooling around when they made Achilles say she's the strongest, because she actually is.
I mean in gameplay, her boons are literally the ones that deal more damage, that's genius
fringe dirge
magic sentinel
Oh look that's just my interpretation, there are a lot of narratives ESPECIALLY for Eros
Imagine calling him for food and he charges at you
rough cedar
Eros is mostly erotic love, and in later myths, he's the son of Aphro and Ares
And while the Greek gods are powerful, they're not omnipotent or omniscient.
magic sentinel
Maybe i misused omnipotent
So Aphro is love in general and Eros specifically erotic love?
Also there's another version where he's a primordial being... brother of Eris...?
rough cedar
Yeah. The earliest accounts portray him as primordial, but later accounts positioned him as Aphrodite's son. 'First' does not mean more powerful, however. Zeus was the last born of his siblings (the first time) and tore his father to shreds. Though Aphrodite was more revered than Eros, generally.
As a side note, Thanatos is described as being as beautiful as Eros, which I've always liked, for the Love/Death duality of it xD
magic sentinel
Than is also described as that one particular god everyone despised because he was rude, probably since he was death
Like jeez poor guy 
lament halo
Thanatos was the guy working in retail before retail was even a thing
And none of the other gods understood why he was such a douche in his free time
Imagine a horde of Karen's complaining about the circumstances of their death or the quality of their transport to Tartarus
magic sentinel
And also last thing, i thought the difference between Eros and Aphro's aspects was that Aphrodite was the goddess of love while Eros was love.
Like Artemis is associated to the moon while Selene, other than being the actuall goddess of the
moon, is the moon
Was i right?
rough cedar
Than wasn't really a douche. He's the nicer death xDD
magic sentinel
For example Than is not really the god of death, he is death. So yes, kinda the god of death, but more than that
rough cedar
And not quite, Symbo. They're all separate... except when they're not. For example, Apollo-Helios is Apollo's Helios aspect, wherein the two are considered the same. Likewise for Artemis-Selene.
Like Zagreus-Dionysus is Dionysus.
lament halo
I was under the impressio that Apollo and Helios are separate deities
rough cedar
Depends on the era, area and interpretation.
But generally, when they exist in the same pantheon, Apollo would be the more powerful and influential, not Helios.
lament halo
For example, Helios is exclusively tied to the sun and his chariot, which he rides around the sky every day. While Apollo is rarely if ever mentioned in that context
rough cedar
Untrue. Heck, even the NASA 'Apollo' name comes from Apollo's chariot of the sky
lament halo
I'm always happy to learn something new but in none of the Greek mythology I've read or studied did I see mentions of Apollo's chariot
magic sentinel
For example Helios, Selene, Gea, Ouranous, Nyx, Hypnos, Thanatos etc literally mean sun, moon, earth, sky, night, sleep and death in ancient greek
It's like when they add faces to inanimate things in children's cartoons.
Or... countries
lament halo
Yeah, I'm probably just not that well informed on the topic
It's curious to see how much overlap there is between Helios and Apollo, I always thought they were two rather distinct gods
rough cedar
Kinda. But they weren't all made at once and they were interpreted and worshipped differently throughout the region and era. Many coastal areas had Poseidon, not Zeus, as King of the Gods, for instance.
lament halo
That's very interesting
So the way we see the Greek pantheon today may not even be how the ancient Greeks saw matters
rough cedar
Considering the ancient Greeks didn't have a consensus... almost certainly.
lament halo
Tbh, I like it better now
There's much less confusion
Considering how vast Apollo's domain is, what with the muses, poetry, medicine, etc
rough cedar
I like that people are still examining these myths and stories today. There's just as much confusion and there are plenty of disparate interpretations.
lament halo
He can let Helios get the sun and the chariot
rough cedar
And yeah, Apollo gets everything xD
magic sentinel
I just assume Apollo is the god of the sun while Helios is the sun. Apollo is the god of "Helios"
And by "the god of", in this case, i don't mean "he has power over", because this time there was already a deity associated with the sun before Leto gave birth
And i know the epiteth stuff, i mean... if i really had to choose a narrative for a story, i would go with this?
lament halo
Mankind is geared like that. We either examine and re-contextualize myths from the past or we create our own, contemporary mythology (superheroes in a sense)
magic sentinel
Or religion lol
lament halo
Idk, modern religion is significantly less fun than any of the stuff Zeus pulled during his prime
rough cedar
Oh, I dunno, there are some fun bits.
lament halo
Fun bits but nothing like
magic sentinel
I mean that the concept of mythology is nearer to religion than superheroes
rough cedar
And there are plenty of modern interpretations of Greek myths that I don't care for. Not everything is as good as Hades. Sadly T.T
lament halo
I always found Greek mythology to be rather simple, if sometimes not quite hammered out and universally agreed upon
Modern religion is more complex to understand, perhaps intentionally so. As a practicing (more or less) Catholic, I still don't get that whole Holy Trinity stuff
lament halo
I don't mean to insinuate that the Greek pantheon did not have complexity, but the simplicity in the sense of certain gods being aspects of their domains/elements
rough cedar
Well, that's not entirely true for all of them and it's not always true for the ones it is true for. Athena and Ares are both war. Ares has children who are Dread and Fear etc.
magic sentinel
(The Holy Trinity is supposed to be God manifesting in three forms: God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In a way that's why Jesus is "the son of God", because he is literally...?)
lament halo
What? My mind is actually blown
Athena was also the goddess of war, I always simply associated her with wisdom, rationale and critical thinking
rough cedar
She's war too, specifically military strategy and leadership. Whilst Ares is bloodshed and passion.
lament halo
That's oddly cool but also confusing.
Not going to lie, I kinda enjoy the more definitive separations modern interpretations have done to Greek mythology
rough cedar
Athena has always and will always be a war goddess. She's also often the victor. Unlike Ares, who... gets shown up a lot.
Zeus did not like Ares.
lament halo
How did all the worship work? If Spartans pride themselves on warfare and military tactics, did they also acknowledge Athena as the goddess of tactical warfare?
And how did they wrap their heads around attacking Athens
magic sentinel
And for the Romans, that were more strategic than the greeks, Mars was both bloodshed and tactics, if not just tactics, Minerva was almost the same except for war
lament halo
Or was the concept of Athena as the war goddess pushed by Athenians
rough cedar
Yes and no. It was more about which gods favoured you. Pleasing all gods was impossible.
rough cedar
Like, in the Iliad, the gods split their allegiances. Some favoured Greece, some Troy.
lament halo
You get a bottle of ambrosia and you get a bottle of ambrosia and YOU TOO
rough cedar
Anyways, I gotta go. Back later ^^
lament halo
They split their allegiance although the outcome was clear from teh start
See ya later, Stranger
Thank you for the new cool insights
rough cedar
(The outcome was not clear, and Odysseus wins everything through lies)
lament halo
Was it not clear? I was under the assumption Zeus pretty much decided the Greeks as the victors
And the rest was just for show and so the gods could stretch their legs/possibly support their favorite mortal heroes
Man, I really need to brush up on my Greek mythology
magic sentinel
Troy was destined to fall... by the Fates tho
And they were obscure
lament halo
I'd assumed it was destined from the part where Paris chose Aphrodite
Which was btw, a rookie mistake
Hera every time, boys. Every time.
Out of the three goddesses, which one is spiteful and vindictive enough to make her stepson perform a series of nigh impossible tasks. Choose her.
magic sentinel
Eh, don't underestimate the Fates ;--)
I think they also knew who Paris' choice would have been
lament halo
That sucks. They gave him the illusion of choice and then blamed him for all the events that transpired as a result of that decision
BUT THE DECISION WASN'T EVEN HIS TO MAKE TO BEGIN WITH?
Pardon the caps lock
magic sentinel
Athena and Hera were both valuable candidates
But no, my man had to go for the lady
Well he was a shepherd before so his thirst was a bit justified lol
lament halo
Honestly, I bet all three goddesses are complete bangers
At that point, it's like picking between a smoking hot goddess and a slightly less smoking hot goddess with a mean sense of humor, eternal wisdom and sharp wit
magic sentinel
Well...
Or maybe the decision was his
But the Fates already knew...?
But wait they're the ones creating fat- AARGH I DON'T KNOW
obsidian timber
I return to deposit some miscellaneous semi-narrative semi-historical kinda-psychological ramblings about religion and mythology
magic sentinel
Help us ;-;
obsidian timber
Yes, scream for me children, what do you require today?
magic sentinel
(Also about Zeus, i think he did tinker a bit with the war by ""magically"" toning down Achilles' bloodthirst after that person died so Troy didn't fall before it was meant to)
lament halo
Careful now, wouldn't want to spoil a book released by Homer approximately 2000 years ago
obsidian timber
Oh, we're talking about the Iliad?
Uh
I'ma just
Yeah, I like to sit out on this one
lament halo
What's wrong with the Iliad
obsidian timber
See, the Iliad has a lot of Athenian rewriting of deities, especially Aphrodite by nullifying her war-goddess status and making her into just some bratty love chick
You ever wonder why Zeus makes that really random statement about how it makes no sense that Aphro's on a battlefield and she's all like "Oh, tee-hee, silly me, I can't be on there because I'm a woman!"
Yeah, it's because of that
lament halo
Since when was Aphrodite a war goddess?
Damn, everyone had dominion over war
I liked it better when it was just Ares' shtick
obsidian timber
See, Aphrodite's cult first made landfall in Kythera which soon spread to Sparta, who has very much excited about this goddess of war and love.
She was derived from Astarte who herself was derived from Ishtar, the goddess of fertility, sex, love, motherhood, and above all, war.
lament halo
Yeah, apparently Sparta worshiped her as the goddess of war and Athenians worshiped Athena as the goddess of war
obsidian timber
When the Athenians found out that Aphrodite was indicative of both war and love, they got icky feelings because it's Athens and they hated deities representing two things with even the slightest contrast
lament halo
Tbh I kinda appreciate the editorial work of Athenians. It would be hella confusing to have so many deities tied to warfare
obsidian timber
Also, the only deities tied to warfare are Ares, Athena, and Aphrodite.
obsidian timber
Only OLYMPIAN deities, specifically
And Aphrodite's position as a war goddess explained her relationships with both Ares and Hephaestus as it was less likely that she was cheating on one with the other and more like the three were always together from the get-go
lament halo
Never was a fan of that uh, open relationship
obsidian timber
A common issue with how Greek deities are portrayed is that many writers tend to act like ancient Greece was all completely unified in beliefs and was a single entity that all viewed the gods as the same, not a constantly changing set of kingdoms which all had deities falling into and out of favor as the political and social climate constantly shifted.
Never was a fan of that uh, open relationship
Don't hate on polyamory, please
lament halo
It's much too confusing to entertain the latter
I am not even hating, just expressing my personal preference
obsidian timber
It's not even entertaining it, it's just how the history straight-up is
lament halo
If that's your thing, may the stars illumine your path friend
No, of course. As far as historical accuracy is concerned, I love you bringing up these discrepancies and informing me
But in the sense of having a clearly fleshed out pantheon of gods that are often used in entertainment media, you want them to be distinct from each other and recognizable
So Aphro, Athena and Ares sharing the same "working field" would be odd
But absolutely, you've taught me a lot of new stuff just in these last 10 minutes of talking
obsidian timber
Not particularly when you consider what I stated earlier about how Greek deities are more the embodiments of traits associated with abstract concepts and happenings, not those things themselves.
magic sentinel
(Btw i'm not eve too sure about what i said before about Zeus i'm learning not to really trust the internet everywhere ahah)
(Ok continue)
lament halo
Well, you just need to take into account the general populace's interest in these topics
I consider myself to be a Greek mythology enthusiast and I didn't know more than half of the things Stranger and you brought up
So imagine the amount of knowledge a normie who just plays God of War has
magic sentinel
Oh wait, what about Helios or Nyx for example? Aren't they literally the sun and the night?
obsidian timber
Ares represents the brutality and reality of war as well as the might of a military and the glory and honor that comes with being a soldier, combined with comradery and patriotism. Athena represents strategy and wisdom along with skill that comes from experience, tactfulness, wisdom, and authority. Then you have Aphrodite who blends the concepts of love and motherhood and fertility with the necessity and detachment of war, blending together to represent passion and desire as a whole.
lament halo
So they're basically feelings in a sense. How a soldier in the midst of a battle perceives war, how a general in a tent perceives war while strategizing and how a mother who sent her offspring to war perceives war
obsidian timber
Helios and Nyx have their own traits similarly to other deities, with these traits commonly being associated with night and day respectively.
So they're basically feelings in a sense. How a soldier in the midst of a battle perceives war, how a general in a tent perceives war while strategizing and how a mother who sent her offspring to war perceives war
Close, but the latter is more how the citizens and the culture itself sees war, not just the mothers.
lament halo
I still love the Iliad despite the supposed Athenian meddling
The whole story is one big banger
obsidian timber
Eh
It's got some rather sexist undertones
But it's also Athens so what else can you expect
lament halo
...It was written millennia ago
I'm sure their ethics, morals and values weren't on the same level as today
obsidian timber
I know, I'm saying the undertones are present because it was Athens
lament halo
It's still a masterpiece deserving of appreciation
magic sentinel
So they are full fledged figures
But Nyx for example is not a goddess, but a personification
Right?
obsidian timber
Yes, correct
lament halo
Also, I recall Athena going nuts in the Iliad and sponsoring Diomedes in the war
They may have done Aphrodite wrong supposedly, but Athena has a prominent role to play in the epic
obsidian timber
Yeah
lament halo
So I'm not so sure about sexist as much as revisionist and perhaps unfair to Aphrodite?
obsidian timber
It more portrays Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite as being rather vain, which is more how Athens viewed most godesses
lament halo
People murder each other in the name of love, she definitely ain't no "Tee hee, oopsie woopsie what am I doing here"
Idk, I got the impression that all the gods and goddesses are vain.
Zeus sticks his pecker into everything that moves
magic sentinel
At this point i just ignore the sexist stuff
I know it's there, but i also know i can't really put it in the equation
And i also feel happier ahah
obsidian timber
Like, Hera when seen as just a jealous wife who murders her husband's illegitimate children to get back at him for his infidelity is bad, but when you remember that she's the goddess of rulership and having a bunch of illegitimate heirs to the throne running around which will inevitably cause a power struggle because of your husband's stupid shenanigans which is BAD, her actions make a LOT more sense
lament halo
Every good hero story needs an angry stepfather/stepmother to attempt to sabotage things along the way
magic sentinel
And also being the goddess of marriage, it's both a mockery for her and an insult to what she represents i figure
lament halo
Yeah, that one is ironic in a way
obsidian timber
Yeah. But more on the whole 'power struggles are a bad thing' issue.
lament halo
But yeah, ancient Greeks definitely were not as sensitive as we are today to these gender issues
That much is clear
magic sentinel
Like selling bride dresses but also fresh from divorce
obsidian timber
She's not jealous or spiteful, she's just cleaning up her husband's messes because we all know he won't fix the problems he makes
lament halo
If murdering babies is the solution to the problem, I shall be the first one to give her a swift and resounding "HELL NAWH"
obsidian timber
Because he's as self-aware as a can of tuna
lament halo
Particularly when you consider that a demi-god has no hopes of ever ruling Olympus
Infidelity? Bad. Murder? More bad.
magic sentinel
And that's also why Zeus was so mad at Sisyphus
He killed his guests and he's also the god of hospitality
obsidian timber
Like I said, it's to avoid the inevitable power struggle when Zeus dies because if you look at how the stories have gone, each descending generation has inevitably overthrown the last
There's inevitably going to be a demigod that overthrows Zeus and becomes the ruler of Olympus, and Hera's trying her best to make sure that goes as smoothly as possible
lament halo
I don't think any demigod can compare with the power of an actual divinity in the original myths
obsidian timber
By removing the subsequent power struggle between, like, 5,000 kids
lament halo
And demigods are regularly helped by gods during their travels. Perseus would not have succeeded were it not for Athena's aid
obsidian timber
I don't think any demigod can compare with the power of an actual divinity in the original myths
You're forgetting that Kronos literally defeated THE SKY by castrating it, 'power levels' are a non-factor
lament halo
If Zeus "died", one of the other gods or goddesses would step in, demigods wouldn't even factor into the equation
I suppose, but at this point we're hypothesizing and trying to justify Hera's frankly unjustifiable deeds
obsidian timber
Regardless, Hera's just trying to fix all the problems Zeus starts because he's got the common sense of a cat
And then there's Poseidon
Who wouldn't know what consent is if it kicked him in the trident
obsidian timber
Hades never sexually assaulted anyone in the mythology though?
magic sentinel
Well, but that was later right?
In the first version Medusa was just a monster, sister of other monsters
(This is another can of worms but eh)
lament halo
I'm fairly sure he literally kidnapped Persephone and forced her to live in the Underworld as his wife
magic sentinel
In Perseus' myth
lament halo
Which is probably even worse
obsidian timber
All he did was hand Persephone a pomegranate and he didn't even realize she wasn't dead
lament halo
I'm pretty sure Hades kidnapped her.
Like, the literal definition of kidnapping.
Everything after that is a case study on Stockholm Syndrome
magic sentinel
That's the version where he didn't kidnap her
Also where does this alternate version come from? Is it really an earlier version?
obsidian timber
Perse just entered the underworld, went 'neat!', Hades went "Oh, she's pretty, I'ma be charming!" and offered her a fruit not realizing she was still alive, which caused a problem where she wasn't able to leave because now her soul got stuck there, but they figured out that she could leave when the seasons changed, which conveniently fixed the problem with the famine
lament halo
That is not the version of the myth I was taught or read about
In the most accepted version, Hades kidnaps her with his chariot and rides off into the Underworld
obsidian timber
That was the original version before the hellenization took place. It was only even a problem because Demeter was like "Um, excuse me?" and got very pissed, hence the start of the famine in the first place, while Perse as there just casually eating her juicy purplish snacc.
And then the story goes that she found out she could leave when the seasons changes, which makes Demeter happy because now she has Perse back during that time, which is why things grow better during the vernal and summer months when Perse is out of the underworld and start to wither and hibernate during the autumn and winter months when Perse returns to live with her husband for half a year.
magic sentinel
I love that your paragraphs are all so neatly explained and suddenly
juicy purplish snacc
obsidian timber
uwu
lament halo
I think I prefer the kidnapping version
Sharing a pomegranate and then just hitching it up is significantly less dramatic
obsidian timber
See, the issues with the dissonance between pre-Hellenization as well as Mycenean Greece is why Greek mythology is generally just very much a pain to discuss. I actually tend to go with a lot of the older stories as they're the surprisingly safer and more morally-correct versions of those stories.
Also, Persephone already thought Hades was pretty cute and Hades was just instantly smitten with her because he's got the personality and morality of a six-year-old.
lament halo
Things are always prone to changing, I tend to take the most popular and known myths as the "canon"
obsidian timber
That's the thing though, there is no distinct 'canon' to go off of.
lament halo
Well, canon is whatever most people accept as the standard in this case, since there's no writer of Greek myths alive to consult anymore
mild pelican
Then there is also Leuce.. I'm pretty sure she originates from later myths, and in most versions she has been kidnapped
obsidian timber
This is why I just like sitting here and talking about how generally adorable Kwaku Anansi is
magic sentinel
And minthe
obsidian timber
There's no icky morals or sexual assault or massive cultural disparities
lament halo
I like how your username is something silly like "gay baby"
But then you're intellectual asf
lament halo
I meant no disrespect or offense, quite the contrary
Not sure if you've interpreted it as such
obsidian timber
nevermind discord hates me and now I can't add emojis
I was gonna add a 'π§' to it
obsidian timber
You should look into Finnish mythology, it's really intriguing
lament halo
I will check it out
obsidian timber
And then there's a lot of really interesting and surprisingly wholesome with Egyptian mythology, and also with a lot of other African mythologies
lament halo
No Finnish mythology video games though, feelsbadman
obsidian timber
One of my cats is actually names after a Finnish deity
lament halo
All I know of African mythology is... Anansi and Baron Samedi
And Samedi is more Haitian, is that still considered African culture?
obsidian timber
Nyyrikki, Finnish god of the hunt.
Is Haiti in Africa?
No
An interesting thing about most Finnish deities is that they're often portrayed as both male and female, giving a really nice gender-neutral vibe to them
Japanese mythology is also really interesting to work with, same with Chinese and Korean mythologies.
lament halo
Idk, I prefer it when things are made clear for my imagination to envision
Leaving such elements open to interpretation confuses my brain cells
obsidian timber
That's the thing, since they're both you can envision them as whatever sex you want.
lament halo
Well that definitely solves it
obsidian timber
Honestly, a big problem I have with a lot of modern media is that they try to take other mythologies and portray them like Greek deities.
Like how Set is very often portrayed like Ares despite massive difference in their stories.
lament halo
That's because they're trying to commercialize mythology instead of portraying it accurately
It's not in their interest to educate, they're in it for the buckaroos
obsidian timber
It's one of the same reasons that there isn't much about actual Native American folklore and mythologies, because they don't have a massive pantheon of gods indicative of different things like Greek gods.
mild pelican
It would take a lot to hire a specialist, or read lots of books, usually problems are being solved by googling
which is a shame
obsidian timber
Which is one of the reasons for the premise of my Mythos series- it's set in a world where there was no colonization, and has games set in different locations themed around just the mythologies that are actually able to be associated with that regions.
lament halo
I don't even think there's such mainstream appeal to mythology and pantheons of yore in general unless we speak of a few outliers (Greek mythology and to a somewhat lesser extent, Egyptian mythology)
mild pelican
And nordic
lament halo
Absolutely, I forgot Nordic there
obsidian timber
So you've got one that focuses about the indigenous tribes of North America, one themed around mythologies present in the cultures of South America, and so on
So it's modern day without colonization with a mythological theme.
Like, with the one centered around Native American beliefs, the protagonist isn't running around with a sword because Native Americans didn't use swords- those were brought over by European colonists.
lament halo
Swords are flippin' cool though
obsidian timber
Yeah, but you know what's also cool?
Combat where you switch between a spear, a pair of axes, and a bow.
lament halo
Idk, I'm probably sword-biased
obsidian timber
Basically, it focuses on what those cultures would look like today if there was no Christianization or colonization
obsidian timber
The reason they didn't use swords is because there aren't many massive sources of metal that can be worked with. They used knives, yes, but those were for utility, not combat.
mild pelican
Then they had to invent armor immediately
lament halo
So one day a native goes "Hey blacksmith. I want a dagger, but bigger. A lot bigger, ya feel me?"
America didn't have massive sources of metal?
obsidian timber
They didn't have blacksmiths because they rarely worked with metal, especially not for combat purposes.
lament halo
Yes, but they would've probably gotten to that point as time goes on
obsidian timber
Knife blades and spearheads and arrowheads were constructed from different kinds of stone and glass.
And the point of the game isn't to think about how they'd progress with things from other cultures bleeding in, it's about highlighting their original culture pre-colonization and how that would look today if they progressed on their own.
lament halo
I think they would've utilized metal in much greater quantities had they been allowed to progress on their own
I think you just perceive metalworking to be a "western" trait thus you're hesitant to entertain the idea of natives dabbling with metalworks
When every civilization forged armors and metal weapons of various quality
obsidian timber
Also, it's kinda my culture that I'm talking about, so like
I don't wanna just be like "Oh, they NEED swords because vidya gaemz", I want to focus on what it would look like if Europeans never came to the Americas
lament halo
That's fair
obsidian timber
Because Native Americans didn't need to use metals, they would use leather and bone and things from animals they hunted. They would use every part of the animal.
lament halo
How far into this hypothetical development are we going. Because if natives are to discover electricity, they need conductive metals at least
And to know what is conductive and what isn't, they need mining and forging experience
obsidian timber
And they had shields, but these were for deflecting attacks and were constructed of natural materials that would constantly be present, such as plant life and animal remains
Also, I said that the mythology is present, there is a level of magic able to be used.
mild pelican
i guess they could've come up with something completely new
lament halo
I think they would've come up with a slightly different solution to the same problem
obsidian timber
They don't need satellites and electricity to communicate, they have their spirits for that. Technology does not need to be the same as it is today.
lament halo
Oh, fair enough
It IS mythology after all, I was taking a too realistic of an approach to it
Glass and stone arrows must've been rough against armored up foes though
obsidian timber
This isn't about today's culture post-colonization, this is about what it would look like had the colonization NEVER happened. There is some connections between empires, but not the massive colonization. Like, there are allusions to connections with Norsemen, who arrived peacefully centuries before the colonists did and would frequently trade with the Natives, hence why there were horses present before the arrival of the colonists.
lament halo
That's a bunch of what if's but I must admit they're entertaining to consider
obsidian timber
But it's not a blending of cultures, it's just two cultures that help each other, meaning that Norse mythology isn't present.
That's why this focuses less on the spiritual beliefs of Europe and more on the spiritual beliefs of the indigenous peoples. That's why the name of the character will change and holds such importance- names were the essence of a person. That's why the abilities function the way they do, they go around the theme of totem animals and auras.
lament halo
Is this just stuff you are working on or an existing book series? Because if so, I am sold
mild pelican
me too
obsidian timber
It's what I'm making. A game, not a book. Although I do have some books I am working on.
obsidian timber
This is meant to be a series of different games centered around different mythologies that does have an overarching narrative between them, but each have their own unique plotlines and stories and gameplay.
mild pelican
and i'm pretty sure, my friend will be interested, she loves northern american culture and aesthetics
obsidian timber
Also it's a video game, I don't really like board games all that much.
But the basis is that each game focuses on the culture and what was lost and bringing that into a modern time where it wasn't lost, hence why certain games like the one focusing on South American cultures will be very difficult as we don't have much to go off of due to the fact that much of what was there of their culture and language was destroyed.
And I also try to avoid going for overdone plots, like how almost every single work relating to Norse mythology is always only ever about Ragnarok and not the plethora of other stories to work with.
Gawain is the Arthurian knight who has the almighty power of wielding a green himbo giant with an axe
rough cedar
On the subject of the Persephone myth, I don't think there's any ancient version where she went with Hades of her own volition.
obsidian timber
It wasn't even going with Hades, she kinda just wandered on in and looked around for a bit and then her handed her a pom
rough cedar
The most common version is that she was on the surface and Hades just grabs her
obsidian timber
Anyway
Arthurian legend has a surprising amount of gay and I love it
rough cedar
Arthurian legend is awesomely fun and about as unified as Greek mythology. SO MUCH FANFICTION
Lancelot is a later French addition, but every modern adaptation gotta have him now xDD
obsidian timber
Most of the knights were, actually
The only three characters from the base story were Arthur, Mordred, and MAAAAAAYBE Morgan
rough cedar
Some are French, some Irish, some from disparate bits of folklore.
People just kept... adding and changing stuff. It's great.
obsidian timber
Many of the knights and other characters were added after numerous tellings and retellings of the stories.
rough cedar
Morgan is also a later addition.
obsidian timber
Morgan and the Lady of the Lake were kinda the same thing at the start.
rough cedar
Lady of the Lake is a later addition. Heck, Excalibur is later, I think.
obsidian timber
And then they got separated into distinct entities as the story progressed, with the Lady becoming a plot device, Morgan becoming a semi-antagonist, and Merlin supplanting Morgan's initial role as a magic mentor/assistant.
rough cedar
Uther, Guin and Merlin are all earlier than Nimue/Lady of the Lake and Morgan.
obsidian timber
The story was initially just a list of "Lady give Arthur sword, Arthur become king, Mordred usurp, Arthur and Mordred fight, Arthur and Mordred die."
And then actual stories started popping up.
But Excalibur was always present, just the name was initially very different.
rough cedar
Eh, it's weird because it's fused with a bunch of other folklory swords.
And you mean the Welsh name, yeah, Caledfwlch?
Or something like. Damn Welsh
obsidian timber
Actually initially, Mordred didn't even usurp the throne, the two just died in a war with no context
rough cedar
Yep. They duel and die together and people are sad.
obsidian timber
Not even duel. Arthur gets a sword to win a battle, becomes a king, and then he and Mordred both die at some point. We have no context as to who Mordred even is.
obsidian timber
Nope, not even a duel. They die in the war, but it's not explained what side either of them were on.
rough cedar
You're right! They both die in the battle, but it doesn't say which side they were on.
obsidian timber
Yup!
There is barely anything to go off of, meaning that Arthurian legend as a basis is nothing but pure raw source material! You can contextualize it and the base events in any way and any format with any characters you please!
It's a writer's haven!
A writer's...
AVALON
if you will?