balance-feedback-discussion

[alpine plover]

💪

[spare badger]

I am indifferent to the idea

[tacit oriole]

Rabbits vs deer you don't stop to smell it, you go "oh its a whole lot of little balls, it's a rabbit"

[spare badger]

Yea

Make the mechanic interesting and not a waste of time

(Pun not intended)

[tacit oriole]

Just going through the motions, like regular chat (ok that's enough)

[spare badger]

Back to the balance suggestions
The point of this chat lol

[tacit oriole]

Yeah... I'd like to see hunger (stomach fullness) separated from body fat/condition

[alpine plover]

Yeah balance uh

[spare badger]

That is singlehandedly the best recieved suggestion I have EVER made

[tacit oriole]

Like you don't start dying as soon as your stomach is empty

[alpine plover]

honestly it gets boring talking about the same stuff all the time

[spare badger]

That be cool

Like you go off fat reserves

If you ate the right foods

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, you start getting debuffed - and look skinny - but you don't lose hp directly... If you starve for too long you end up only able to walk... Then collapse and cry in discord for your buddies to bring food

[spare badger]

Yes

Take some damage too

But not how it is now

I like that

[tacit oriole]

But then even when you get food it's not like bam stomach full all better, need to fatten back up again

[spare badger]

^^

[tacit oriole]

You could then use stomach capacity and body fat capacity to differentiate between different dinos

Dienos have huge body fat reserves, could go ages without food if need be... Utahs have none, need to keep eating pretty regularly

[spare badger]

You should suggest that it would be great for diets
They mentioned that you have different nutrient groups and such

[tacit oriole]

Alright I'll try and put some more thought into it and make a post in balance

@vale harness Wait, carno charge does 600 damage? That's bonkers

[spare badger]

Post it in general probably

[tacit oriole]

Well... In my mind it's a balancing tool, but yeah you are probably right

Hmm... If you eat too much, should you get fat and slow?

Maybe more HP, less sprint speed or more stamina used when sprinting

Dieno can't hit right behind it with alt bite if it gets too fat

[spare badger]

That's a bit far the Deino thing

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, probably. Can't let my dieno bias show too much

[alpine plover]

Deinosarcosuchsus main

[vagrant mural]

Joke from earlier today

[alpine plover]

Lol dryo massacre

[tacit oriole]

Brothers... No

[alpine plover]

Indeed

wiped out half of the servers population with just dryos

[vagrant mural]

Stupid idiot utahs vs chad dryos 💪

[alpine plover]

[tacit oriole]

NA1? Going to go gloat about it there

[alpine plover]

Yeah na1 xd

[wintry anchor]

stegos should not be able to move and attack they are defensive dinos.
that means they should not be able to run away and attack at the same time

[thorn spire]

^ if they do move and attack make the attack weaker since they arent putting as much force into it.

[slim dragon]

Not run away but walk away would be enough

You can't be an unarmored pseudo-apex and hope to win every encounter by just standing and fighting

[dim radish]

Why would that be an issue, considering that every carnivore will most likely be faster

[thorn spire]

Stego isnt psuedo apex, it's a full apex that has to contend against rex

[wintry anchor]

is it a full apex?

[thorn spire]

Yeah, it has to be aswell because it cannot outrun a rex, it has to fight.

[dim radish]

It can't tho lmao. Rex would clap current stego

[thorn spire]

Current stego is weakened for the current ecosystem

[slim dragon]

Apex is a fuzzy word. Technically, only carnivores can be apexes.

Also current stego is rather small
Way smaller than legacy's

[wintry anchor]

i still think stego should not be able to RUN and attack but walking should be fine

[slim dragon]

If stego has a moving attack, then it doesn't have to outrun or beat a rex while standing. Just trot away while tanking tail hits and delivering headshots until the rex decides to back off or collapses.

[wintry anchor]

also i see a lot of people saying stegos tail swing should take less stam, isn't the way way your suppose to kill a stego to drain its stam?

and if you make it take to little stam to swing most carnis we have right now won't be able to take it on.

I understand giving it a buff later but I don't think it needs one now

[slim dragon]

Maybe not now, but it'll definitely need one once actual predators for it are implemented.

[wintry anchor]

yes i agree with that

[spare badger]

A moving attack should usable when trotting and definitely be weaker

[thorn spire]

The only buffs it needs when apexes are out are HP and Damage buffs.

It should get a second weaker tail hit that faster and can be used while walking.

[spare badger]

It really shouldnt be struggling against utahs

[wintry anchor]

I personally think that for now an utah can take down an an stego, but once more larger carni come to evrima stego should get a buff which puts stego out of utahs prey range

it should be hard for a utah to take on a stego though

[thorn spire]

Utah can prey on anything if they are good enough.

[wintry anchor]

yes but once stego gets a buff only the best utahs should be able to take down a stego

[tacit oriole]

@hasty coyote no need to preload a ✅ and a ❌ on your own suggestion - people can find them if need be

And adding a X when nobody is really against it makes it look worse than it really is

[hasty coyote]

i think it makes it easier for people to dislike it if they dont like it

or like

[sinful cove]

i think it can reduce the clutter of different positive/negative reactionsif there are one of each already in place which can be a reason to do it

he is right tho hypsi feels unfinished and bad

[hard bridge]

anyone else having problems flying when u bleed?

[fallen chasm]

It's a huge flaw. Ptera literally cannot fly currently if bleeding.

[slim dragon]

@fallen chasm I have only one question about your feedback. But it is a genuine question, and without any understatements. I mean it and I'm sorry if that question offends you, but that is something I need to know.
Why the potato picture ?

[fallen chasm]

It was more-so for an eye-catch. I mention tubers as an example in the posting and potatoes are tubers.

[slim dragon]

Oh right
I thought it was just there to annoy people like me

[fallen chasm]

lol I'm sure that it would. Islecord among all places is a place where a mere potato that is a tuber will annoy or offend someone

Potato aside, what are your thoughts on the concept?

[dim radish]

I don't know what you did to me, but that picture of that potato was so flat and unexpected, I cracked up

[lament cloak]

potato

[fallen chasm]

I was hoping someone could appreciate that for what it was worth. I literally sought out the most ordinary potato I could find, equipped with the caption "Potato"

Potato aside, what are your thoughts on the concept however?

[fallen chasm]

[broken orbit]

p o t a t

[fallen chasm]

• o

[tacit oriole]

Boil em mash em stick em in a stew... But in seriousness, that should probably be in #ai-feedback not #balance-feedback

[tacit oriole]

Utahs should be able to drop a bit further - they have enough power in their legs to pounce almost that high - but it should cost stamina. Not enough Stam and you take HP damage

Actually I'd almost like to see that for all therapods, up to a certain height is no damage, a bit more starts to cost Stam, more again also deals fracture damage. If you can't afford the Stam cost, you take more damage again

I don't know about pure fracture damage for falls... I guess fractures also cover sprains, so it makes some sense

I feel like a carno or whatever would bottom out and have their stomach/chest slap the ground rather than breaking a leg bone

Humans break ankles in big drops because we have crappy half evolved ankles and/or locking their knees straight, but a big ole therapod wouldn't be as vulnerable I feel... Plus look at how high horses can jump, and they have horrendously fragile legs for their size

Yeah, probably, if they locomote like elephants they have barely an flexure at all and would struggle to absorb the impact

Hard to know, stego looks like they would have lots of power and flexure in their legs, but they also weigh 6t so

[sinful cove]

Would be nice if quadrupeds had an easier time on slopes than most bipeds

[spare badger]

Yes

[vestal gust]

Can’t make the Dryo slower than Utah until it has a viable ability or it’s dodge is fixed so that it actually gets you out of the way of an attack and you can use it while moving without it stopping you or slowing you down. After dryo has an actually useable ability then sure, make it slower. But if you do it now, it just goes back to essentially being a free kill… like how it was when dryo was first added to EVRIMA

[sinful cove]

Yeah Dryo's dodge was already useless without the speed boost

The speed boost is probably just a band-aid for dryo until he is fixed with abilities that actually work and its fine that way, it shouldn’t be slower with a garbage rushed ability

[alpine plover]

All this complaining about Teno being strong against Carno. I think it's hilarious that nobody ever considered that maybe the carnivore that's supposed to hunt small dinos and run in a straight line isn't supposed to attack something around the same size as it that's protected from all angles.

[hollow canyon]

Carno isn't supposed to be hunting smaller dinosaurs atm. It's not designed to do that at all due to its lack of agility. You have to be pretty bad to die to a Carno as a Utah/Dryo. Carno vs Tenonto is currently the best match up in the game but Tenonto's still on the verge of being too good(if it's not just outright too good).

The only situations where a decent Utah/Dryo player can die to a Carno currently is if the Carno that's after them is abusing the foliage exploit or if they're outright trying to fight the Carno. I don't see how else you can die to it atm.

Tenonto also isn't just good because of the Carno match up - the animal packs about as much of a punch as Carno itself while being really easy to grow, it has an amazing stamina pool, high damage output. Powerful crowd control on two of its attacks one of them applying bleed as well.

I wouldn't nerf it for now as diets might put it back in its place.

However if it remains the way it is now after the diets are introduced then it definitely deserves to get hit with a nerf(probably increased stam drain on running is what I'd go with).

[alpine plover]

Running stam is a bit too high I agree, but still, a Carno should not be able to kill it anyway

[hollow canyon]

It should absolutely be able to kill it, it's the best animal to be hunting Tenonto in a 1v1 scenario in the first place. I believe Dondi said at some point that Carno will be the only relatively small animal that Tenonto won't be able to scare off just by looking its way. There's no other animal on the roadmap that would fit better as a Tenonto hunter in terms of 1v1 than Carno.

[alpine plover]

Carno can do about as much damage as it while not using stamina and not being locked in place, that's kinda trash

[hollow canyon]

Carno has much less stamina and to deal that damage it has to get into the range of Tenonto's lethal CC. Carno also can't apply its own CC mid-combat as it has a windup that requires Carno to use it from far away.

Carno is probably the best balanced animal in the game with clear-cut weaknesses and strengths. The main issue with it is that they can just gather into those large packs that roam the map - that shouldn't be a thing but hopefully diets also address that problem.

[alpine plover]

Using it from far away is exactly what it should do, yet right now it just dances around a carno like a big utah

around a teno*

[hollow canyon]

Well yes but most of the time that dancing around should be ending up with Tenonto landing a hit eventually - Carno isn't particularly good at accelerating(iirc it's the worst animal in the game in terms of acceleration) and has a rather long slide. If it ever gets caught by any of Tenonto's back-attacks it's either out of the fight or outright dead.

[alpine plover]

Which is exactly how a fight against a teno should go

[hollow canyon]

And it does

[alpine plover]

Carno should be way more focused on ambushing with charge instead of spam biting

[hollow canyon]

I think every Tenonto I've killed as a Carno since update 3.5 dropped was killed by me landing a charge on it, typically while ambusing it

[alpine plover]

All I'm asking is charge to do more damage, bite to do less

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it would change all that much - you deal damage with the bites after the Tenonto is already on the ground. If you nerfed Carno's biteforce you'd have to buff the charge damage by a lot to make up for that.

Typically you can land 3 bites on a Tenonto that got charged

The match up is more or less fine if not slightly too good for Tenonto atm. As I said - I wouldn't touch it for now, let's see how diets affect it. If everything goes according to the plan then most issues about the two animals will be sorted out.

That is - Tenonto being absolutely effortless to grow and Carno being able to create those enormous groups running around and decimating the map.

[sinful cove]

The matchup is pretty even, plus carno is faster and can wallow if some toxic teno tries to hunt it. The melee should be in tenonto's favour since it is slower than its predators

Why people want herbis to be both slower and either weaker or even with their predators is beyond me

[alpine plover]

I don't see how anything about Teno is too strong. It's literally just "don't get hit by the tail"

[hollow canyon]

Running time - as I said that's the thing I'd nerf about it. Its stamina pool should be untouched but its stamina drain on running might have to be increased if it stays the way it is.

Yea you can wallow if some "toxic"(i.e. - me) Tenonto tries to hunt you down but it's not always possble and relies on where you are on the map.

I wouldn't touch the number of attacks Tenonto can perform with its stamina pool but more so just change how fast it runs out of stamina if it keeps running. Taking out some 30 seconds could fix all the issues with it but as I said it might be perfectly fine after the next patch so I'd hold on with any changes for now.

Although I do have some possible other changes for Tenonto(specifically for its attacks) that could change the animal up a bit but that's a different story altogether.

[cedar shore]

@dawn dew i dont think teno needs any changes as of now. Id say its by far the most balanced dino in game

[dawn dew]

I’d disagree considering it’s basically great at everything, and has amazing combat prowess as seen in that video

[cedar shore]

Nah it can be clapped by 3+ utahs and has a very even matchup with carno

[dawn dew]

Best stamina for its size, best trot in the game, amazing turning, great acceleration, great attack damage and stuns, attacks drain very little stam

[dawn dew]

Carno also had an even matchup with teno before carno got a huge nerf, its matchup odds stayed the same but it had to play smarter and had its stats toned down heavily

[cedar shore]

What are you on dude carno has never had any stat ajustments exept 3 km/h less speed

[hollow canyon]

Carno had a tonne of stat adjustments since it came out.

[cedar shore]

like what?

[dawn dew]

When update 3 released, it saw a size reduction, massive stamina nerf, and agility nerf. Also it’s charge stam drain got knocked down a ton

[hollow canyon]

Its healing rate was nerfed, its stamina pool was nerfed, its turn rate was nerfed.

[cedar shore]

oh yeah stamina..

[hollow canyon]

Yea charge stam drain being increased by a tonne was also a thing

[cedar shore]

but its health and dmg is still the same and its still by far the most viable in game dino

[hollow canyon]

In all the honesty the most painful nerf was probably the healing rate

[cedar shore]

Regardeless teno does in no way need a. nerf

[hollow canyon]

Nah, it's far from the most viable animal in the game. Dryo is a better survivalist, Tenonto is better than Carno in that weight class. Deino is better at PvP(miles better as it's probably the most overpowered playable atm).

[cedar shore]

Carno can take on pretty much everything exept stegos though.

[dawn dew]

Deino is a pvp god rn yeah

[hollow canyon]

The only reason why Tenonto might seem not oppressive atm is that you just have so many Carnos running around that you barely ever have even fights - it's pretty much always 1 Tenonto up against three Carnos that just maul it.

[cedar shore]

Yeah if you are good with teno you could jump up on some rocks

saved my life a couple of times

[hollow canyon]

Depends on the numbers. In normal circumstances Deinosuchus is not really touchable to Carno unless there's a really large pack of them on you.

[dawn dew]

Deino takes it down unless it doesn’t know how to alt bite, everything else is smaller than carno so ofc it can take it down, even then teno has a good matchup against it

[cedar shore]

As long as its not sitting right by water it can get clapped by multiple experienced carnos

[hollow canyon]

Carno is the best balanced animal in the game atm. Tenonto is somewhere in that area too but it's possibly too good as well.

"Multiple" is the key word.

[cedar shore]

yeah i dont think they need any balance changed either

[hollow canyon]

1 Deinosuchus can take on around 3 Carnos if it knows how to Deino

[cedar shore]

changes-

[hollow canyon]

I've taken on more than 3 Carnos as well but let's just say that 3 is a decent number to take on rather calmly, if it gets to 4 and above you might start to get worried if water isn't close-by.

That while being much easier to grow than Carno

Literally just legacy growth-syndrome of not seeing a single soul until you're fully grown.

[alpine plover]

That's not about carno being weak but about deino not using stam on alt bite

[cedar shore]

idk man playing deino isnt safe

Deino needs an alt bite stam drain, thats like common knowledge at this point

[hollow canyon]

To a certain extent it is about Deino not using stam on alt bite but as it is - it doesn't use it. Not that it would make it all that easy to kill either way. You shouldn't be spamming the alt bite in the first place.

[alpine plover]

I don't like all the Teno complaining. Carno shouldn't have an even matchup against it when it's already faster and heavier

[hollow canyon]

And I do think playing Deino is about as safe as it gets - you literally don't have to worry about any other animal aside from other Deinos.

[alpine plover]

Herbis shouldn't always be equat to carnivores in strength even if they're slower

equal*

[hollow canyon]

Carno is heavier as you pointed out - Tenonto is the smaller of the two animals and much easier to grow. The match up is fair as it is(and that's being charitable to Tenonto).

[cedar shore]

exactly..

[alpine plover]

I still can't see what's so strong about teno. Aside from its insane running stam it's completely fine, Carno players expect to be able to kill it for free because "haha hadrosaurs weak"

[hollow canyon]

They can't kill it for free - as I pointed out, the match up is pretty balanced aside from Tenonto's running time which is quite absurd.

Well that coupled with the fact that it takes no effort to grow(you don't have to eat until you're a subadult).

[vagrant mural]

It’s more of a combination of insane stam, stunlock, bleed, turning radius, speed, ease of growth from what I’ve seen

[hollow canyon]

Yea it's all those things put together that make it a bit too good

[alpine plover]

Yeah but carno players complain about not being able to. It' completely fine as it is

[vagrant mural]

Basically the problem is that teno has no definable weakness other than being slightly worse in 1 area than other animals

[hollow canyon]

In my experience Tenonto doesn't like bleed very much but I'm not sure if I'd outright call that its weakness.

[alpine plover]

People who complain about Teno being strong just run into it and get stun locked. I've seen people kill Tenos as solo Utahs. There's nothing op about Teno aside from running stam

[hollow canyon]

Let's not get too much into this - as I said the animal might get balanced out without being directly touched just by the virtue of diets being introduced into the game.

Well yes, but the running stam is a thing unfortunately and it allows Tenonto to do stuff it honestly shouldn't be able to do. I've ran down Carnos as a Tenonto myself just by the virtue of outstamming them.

If it lost some 30 seconds of its run-time it would probably be just fine.

[alpine plover]

Yeah that's literally its only problem. My problem is people calling it "overtuned" because a specific Carno main thinks a Teno turning fast and having a stun is "overtuned"

[hollow canyon]

Well it's the combination of all those factors that might be making this animal slightly too good. It's not outright oppressive as I said but it's oscillating between being balanced and overpowered atm. We shall see what the future updates bring for it.

[versed rune]

i can’t help but feel this statement is targeting me. But yes teno’s turning is a bit absurd. It shouldn’t be nerfed like crazy cause it still has to compete with utah and carno who are fast and can dodge effectively, but the point still stands. The only other real problem is again it’s stamina.

The main reason people talk about teno being overturned is that it has no clear weakness like the other playables. Utah and bird are fragile, carno can be juked and heals slow, stego and deino are far from nimble, etc etc. plus the fact that it has four attacks while everything else has two at most.

[alpine plover]

I think the statement is targeting you lol

[versed rune]

I believe you are right, city bird of large proportions

[alpine plover]

thank you my fellow blue theropod from the late Cretaceous period that has specific traits of a bull

[oak wind]

Ngl

I agree with Dio

Carno is rather okayish to hunt small game

It should be efficient at it (small game is -2 tons animals) so, its charge turn should be buffed, cooldown reduced and finally alt attack be buffed.

Also pretty nice acceleration would be nice for it.

Tbh, the alt attack should be strong enough to one shot a Utah after the charge.

[hollow canyon]

I think oneshotting is going a bit far but yea it would be ok if Carno's alt bite had a stamina cost and dealt more damage just like Utah's alt attack.

[oak wind]

If you didn't charge and do that to a Utah, it doesn't die.

That would happen only post charge

With stunned guy'

[novel tulip]

Imo the only thing that should be buffed for carno is making the ambush work even when not fully accelerated, just because the ambush only works at full speed and that makes it janky and people don't want to use it

Either that or make it to where you can hold rmb even when not fully accelerated, and it'll automatically put you in ambush once you've fully accelerated instead of having to click after

Also a better or more useful alt bite

I can get behind a bite force nerf but only to 325

[gusty mason]

Was that the right channel btw? Or should i put it in #general-feedback

[hollow canyon]

Why 325? That's a really random number. Any nerf below 334 would have a profound impact on its match-ups. 325 seems like you put it there just because it looks nice and "even".

[hollow canyon]

Still a random number, it also doesn't say what the alt bite buff should be exactly. Also a change of biteforce to 325N absolutely changes the Utah match up(by at least one additional bite).

As for Tenonto changes I disagree with them too(although they are headed in the right direction). I don't see much of a reason in nerfing kick's stamina cost. That attack is just inferior to the tailslam generally due to its limited range so it being more spammable is fine. I'd nerf Tenonto's running time even down to 120 if it was up to me but the whole Tenonto discussion is worth putting on hold until the next update comes out as diets might put it more in line as I've said before.

[novel tulip]

I wasn't touching teno but I was going off any number where tenonto match up could change but not utahs

[hollow canyon]

Utah's match up absolutely changes with that nerf to the biteforce.

[novel tulip]

Then what number do you suggest

[hollow canyon]

I've already said it - if you lower the biteforce below 334N you automatically add another bite to the required number to kill a Utah. I personally wouldn't change Carno's biteforce at all(or even touch the animal's stats at all, it's probably one of the few if not the only well balanced animal in the game).

[alpine plover]

Tenos run could use more stamina, that way it has to choose to fight or run and can't do both.

A slight nerf to its turn rate and a slight nerf to the amount of tail whips it can do and I feel like it would be fine, slower trot to.

[hollow canyon]

Even if you lower the biteforce down to 335 you might need another bite to kill a Utah to be honest.

With 335biteforce you will go just a couple of health points above the 1k health pool that Utah has. You will need to land those bites in a really quick succession before healing causes the Utah to have enough health to survive the three bites from you.

[versed rune]

^^^ This. People don’t realize that carno is honestly perfect aside from its charge being too weak and clunky. It’s bite force is 350 specifically so it can 3 shot utah with body hits. Any more than 3 body hits is absurd. It’s mainly just people complaining when they die to it.

[hollow canyon]

The only issue with Carno is probably the fact that they are allowed to gather up into those enormous packs that just steamroll everything in their path moving across the map but this will likely be addressed in the next updates that introduces diets. As it is they are free to just cannibalise any of their fallen kin to keep the rest going.

[versed rune]

And I think teno’s amount of tail whips is fine as is, just could use less sprinting stam and debatably a SLIGHTLY worse turn speed. As for teno’s trot I feel like it’s fine, carno’s trot just needs to be buffed to teno’s trot speed or faster because it makes no sense for the fastest predator to be worse at traveling than its prey.

[hollow canyon]

I've never actually tested their trots one next to the other - does Tenonto trot faster than Carno?

[versed rune]

I can agree here, carno shouldn’t be completely antisocial but it shouldn’t work in giant packs either. I’d say 5 carnos at MOST working together. Although carno hasn’t been stated to be pro or anti cannibal yet so we’ll see

[versed rune]

It does

[hollow canyon]

That's... weird and I don't think Tenonto should trot faster at all. Do you know by any chance whether Carno trots faster than at least a Utah?

[versed rune]

I’m gonna assume carno is faster, not 100% sure tho

I think it is

[hollow canyon]

I certainly hope so, I've always just assumed that Carno has the fastest trot in the game. I don't see any reason why Tenonto should trot faster

[alpine plover]

Yeah I believe tenontos trot is faster. Oddly enough.

[tacit oriole]

Remember that fractures will really stir up the balance between teno and carno, I think we will need to see how things look after U4

[wild cove]

Might just be to give Teno more of a chance, idk

[tacit oriole]

I'd put money on all the major stats being tweaked with fractures anyway, not much point talking about these sort of changes to U3 with U4 around the corner

[wild cove]

I just hope its not gonna be like legacy where you drop off a tiny ledge and your leg breaks

[tacit oriole]

Same. I had a suggestion for that - let dinos consume stamina to mitigate fall damage - hopefully something like that gets in

[alpine plover]

I think it’ll depend of the severity of the drop

like if you trip over a tiny rock you’ll probably have little to no fracture

and falling off of a cliff side will probably break your leg if you even survive

[tacit oriole]

Anything that can crouch should not just break a leg bone in a small drop

[wild cove]

Should also depend on the species. Hypsi should have amazing fracture resist just like it has great fall resist, especially since Hypsi has basically no viable defense except for more fall survivability

[alpine plover]

hopefully the game won’t be so harsh with apexes dealing with fall damage

In legacy you could literally die by falling an inch

as an apex

[wild cove]

I don't even tend to play apexes but I agree lol

I've played adult deino like

twice

fall damage is brutal

[alpine plover]

Apexes are going to be hard to grow with diets so not really a point lol

[tacit oriole]

It depends on whether they want to use fall resistance as a mechanic to zone certain dinos out of mountains

[alpine plover]

and just wait till fractures

[wild cove]

I remember sliding off the rocks at the pond as an adult deino and it took out like 2/3 of my health

Utter BS tbh

[wild cove]

I honestly wouldn't completely mind that if its somewhere it makes sense

Like I'm sorry but a T-Rex shouldn't be scaling up almost-vertical cliffs

[alpine plover]

BoB moment

[wild cove]

Even Utah is pushing it a little depending on the slope BUT Utah have cleat feets

And jump

Hypsi is already supposed to climb trees so honestly it'd fit right in as a little dino mountain goat

Stego should definitely not be going up cliffs

[alpine plover]

6 ton quadruped going up a hill sounds like a death sentence honestly

[wild cove]

Exactly

[alpine plover]

animals of that size aren’t made for that

plus it just doesn’t really need to in the first place

[wild cove]

Although on falling, I wouldn't mind some sort of controlled slide mechanic on reasonable inclines. Something like how Far Cry Primal does

[alpine plover]

Yeah that would be nice

It would suck to lose a 8 hour grow because you accidentally fell an inch from the ground

then again as an apex player you need to be careful. Always watch your surroundings

[wild cove]

Bone break is brutal on legacy because even something with fall resist like Austro gets royally screwed by moderate falls

We'll just have to see how it plays on Evrima tho

[alpine plover]

It shouldn’t be as bad. Legacy was fucked from the start anyways

Creatures also dealing fractures plays a big role in balance

tenonto having fractures sounds devastating tbh

[wild cove]

Yeah, probably

Theoretically is should POTENTIALLY give Hypsi a little more of the edge it needs and put it in a better place, as long as they don't nerf it too hard on the fall resist or screw it on fractures.

I remember falling down into the shallows canyon as a hypsi without dying, which was as stupid amazing as it was surprising. Sucks I literally fell right in the middle of a utah megapack at the same time though lol

[alpine plover]

Utah megapacks are always tough

Good thing most of them suck though

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, pretty impossible to balance against a megapack that is happy to suicide members to get kills

[wild cove]

I just let them kill me cuz screw it, we all know I'm not getting out of this canyon alive

But I digress

[alpine plover]

Hypsi is surprisingly slow for its size

[wild cove]

It really is

[alpine plover]

It should be WAY faster

[tacit oriole]

Short little legs

[wild cove]

Like it feels fast but its really not

[alpine plover]

Probably feels fast because you’re so tiny

then a utah sees you and instant death

[tacit oriole]

I think it'd less that hypsi is slow and more that every other Dino is super fast

[wild cove]

Which I'd be fine with except we literally have nowhere to hide besides bushes where predators can also go

[tacit oriole]

A galloping horse - the fastest way humans got around for millennia is only 40-48 km/hr

[wild cove]

Ngl 90% of the time as a Hypsi, I'm chilling with carnos who don't want to eat me because its the only way I survive in a populated area lol

[alpine plover]

If they keep the current speeds they need to buff hypsis speed

[wild cove]

One bite from literally anything except another Hypsi kills you so

[tacit oriole]

Hypsi jump and glide?

[alpine plover]

Sometimes carnos are friendly. Usually no. But it’s possible

[wild cove]

I have best luck with Carnos. Deinos and utahs are jerks to Hypsi most of the time lol

[alpine plover]

50 ton hypsi upsize ? Yes?

[tacit oriole]

It sorta depends how much hypsi one spam has been going on... And just how hungry you are

[wild cove]

lol

Deino just have no chill

Its funny though when an adult Deino is trying to grab you as a hypsi because like

How much food benefit do you get really

[alpine plover]

Pretty sure you get more food from a tiny fish

deino players just hate everything

[tacit oriole]

Small fish are 15kg I believe

Deino life is boring, tbf

[wild cove]

Most adult deino in my experience are like the new legacy Rex players

[alpine plover]

They are

Then again deino is pretty much water rex currently

[wild cove]

Every so often there's a deino that won't kill you as a hypsi but they're usually sitting right next to one that will so lol

[tacit oriole]

Alt-turn water rex sounds about right, with no ability to tailride

[wild cove]

They don't really have to with how many utah players will just yeet into rivers

[tacit oriole]

People only get in fights with them because they are desperate for food... Or going fishing at pond

[alpine plover]

Utahs will just throw themselves into rivers just because

[wild cove]

Bad utah players anyway

of which there are a lot

[alpine plover]

yeah. They usually just miss pounces and stuff

[tacit oriole]

I feel personally attacked... Let's not stray too far from OT though

I think all these balance changes are a bit arbitrary with U4

[alpine plover]

I wonder if Utah will have any fractures

maybe it’s alt bite idk

[wild cove]

I doubt it but maybe

[tacit oriole]

I think bleed will be the utahs thing, let other dinos have fractures as their thing

[alpine plover]

Carno should definitely have fracture with its charge

[wild cove]

Carno, stego, teno, and deino will probably all have fracture

Although Deino is up in the air I think because they do bleed if I'm not mistaken

[tacit oriole]

I actually kinda hope something else gets a charge instead of carno... Its head just doesn't look right for it

[alpine plover]

How are they going to give deino fractures without it being op

[wild cove]

Its not so much I think it should have it as much as it is a possibility

That it might get it

But yeah it would really break it

No pun intended

[alpine plover]

[tacit oriole]

Cerato looks like it has a head made for charging, even though that doesn't fit in with the scavenger meta that most people seem to want

[alpine plover]

really want cera to be a brawler tbh

[wild cove]

Well the thing with Carno's charge is I'm pretty sure they didn't make it with big dinos in mind

[alpine plover]

Something that can easily beat a carno in a 1v1 situation

[wild cove]

But that's what people prob use it for anyway

[tacit oriole]

Oh, more like a Utah pin? Use it to knock down and finish off smaller prey? Makes sense

[wild cove]

Pretty sure that was the intent but as with anything, Dev Intent vs How Its Actually Played are two separate things

I don't exactly think its a mistake the initial charge preview used smaller dryos as bowling pins instead of had a carno charge a stego or teno

Or even just random or an afterthought

[tacit oriole]

It's not always easy to predict how people use the tools you give them... I'm always really bad at thinking of ways stuff will be exploited so I can't criticise that sort of thing

[wild cove]

Fair enough

Its kind of like uh

I haven't played it but a lot of people hate the combat in Kingdom Come Deliverance for instance

Because a lot of people just want a hack-and-slash like Skyrim or something instead of an actual skill-based combat system that requires you to learn nuance

You can make the system a certain way but you can't force people to play it like that

Or like Lair, which I did play

People hated that game for the flight mechanics

[tacit oriole]

Skyrim is actually a great example - you have all these cool skill trees, spells, swords, la la la - everyone just goes sneak archer

[wild cove]

Personally I loved it but I actually learned the mechanics the way they were meant to play

Sneak archer is super OP is why lol

I'm guilty of sneak archer

But like with the Isle, we either have specific mechanics or are going to get them later and they have a specific niche in mind in design

Lot of people just don't use it

[tacit oriole]

I would have liked Lair if I owned a PS3

[wild cove]

Like tbh though I don't think I've ever seen a carno use charge. They just spam-bite

Until they hit

[tacit oriole]

I think it's pretty impossible to get things right first try, just need to accept it's going to be a bit iterative or that there will be extensive QA times before release

[wild cove]

Utahs actually use the pounce mechanic but besides just being a bit of a fun mechanic, its also just super broken rn with location teleport

[tacit oriole]

I've been charged a few times, once as a teno they jumped me charging out of a bush (dunno how) and once when I was trying to run away

[wild cove]

Okay I should rephrase

I've never seen a carno charge a hypsi or dryo or small dino

[tacit oriole]

Oh right, heck no that would never work

[wild cove]

I've used charge as a carno on an adult dryo

successfully

But I've never seen anyone else do it

[tacit oriole]

I tried but the dryo was way better than me and just using us as practice

[wild cove]

lol fair

Dryo is in a stupid good spot right now when it comes to speed

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, and still few people play it

[wild cove]

A skilled dryo player can wipe out whole packs of carnis in its own size range too

Its in kind of a weird tanky spot right now honestly

[oak wind]

Dryo has toi much healt

It has like 320

Ridiculous

Also it's damage are tho

75 on a peak

[cedar shore]

@alpine plover I feel like carno is going to need to have a bite nerf and in compensation a charge buff. Right now it completely claps utah and similar sized dinos. When other mid tiers get added im not sure how to balance them so they arent inferior to carnos when they have such a powerful bite and high mobility.

[alpine plover]

How does carno clap utah?

It cant catch it without a ambush

And even if it does, how is that bad?

And carno is at a disadvantage vs teno

one tail slam and its dead.

[hallow spire]

Most carnos run in packs and yea it’s completely on purpose that a carno should kill utahs if it’s careful enough

[alpine plover]

Only bad tenos get demolished

[alpine plover]

but yea when more dinos are added carno should get a bite force nerf, and utah should get a hp nerf to compensate.

[hallow spire]

@cedar shore but I do agree with the charge buff and the bite nerf it doesn’t really need a good bite if the charge was buffed since that is its special ability and if it has a good bite it would just be a boring bite spamming cheetah with a useless special ability so the charge buff and bite nerf is good

[cedar shore]

yeah right now the charge on carno is so useless since spam biting is just much more effective

[hallow spire]

Mhm

[cedar shore]

Once you meet a carno who can controll its momentum well you will know, there is like no escape..

[hallow spire]

Best chance is to run in forest and try to lose it there

[cedar shore]

Yup but there is so many fucking cheaters rn :/

[hallow spire]

But yea there are some carnos that are actually good at controlling not able to drift and able to turn normally

[cedar shore]

That dont see foliage

[hallow spire]

True

[cedar shore]

yeah and if you can do that it becomes extremely hard to juke you

[hallow spire]

In my opinion carnos drift isn’t all that bad to me when I play as one, even if I accidentally drift I’ll still be right on somebody’s tail

Could just be me who thinks that tho but that’s fine lol

[cedar shore]

yeah its drift is kinda like a punishment if you cant controll your movement well

it slows you down A LOT

[hollow canyon]

Carno's charge is useful - it's overtly nerfed but it's still the best tool to use against a Tenonto. Without landing it in all the honesty a good Tenonto will be killing you pretty much every time.

And no, Carno doesn't clap a Utah - you're not doing a very good job if you're getting killed by Carnos as a Utah. The only situation where Utah might be dying is if it tries to fight the Carno or if the Carno in question is a cheater that is using the foliage exploit.

[cedar shore]

Yeah I ment when utahs go up against carnos they get clapped. Also a good teno player can eaily avoid carno charges

[hollow canyon]

Yeah naturally - you typically have to ambush the Tenonto to hit the charge on it.

As for Utahs - duh they get clapped if they try to go against Carnos. They are meant to be getting clapped. You need numerical advantage to try to take on a Carno as a Utah and honestly if you didn't something would be very very wrong with the balance. Just like you need numbers to take on a Deinosuchus as a Carno.

[cedar shore]

Eh yeah but now that the rooster is so small it would make the game a lot more enjoyable if utahs had a better chance against carnos. Carno vs Utah matchup was really balanced when update 2 came out but now pounce has just gotten nerfed to allmost nothing.

[hollow canyon]

Tbh that match up was much more in favour of Carno during the days of update 2. Currently I'd say it's much better for the Utah after Carno received numerous nerfs.

This is of course assuming that Utah is actually good.

[cedar shore]

Nah utah has been hit harder with the nerfs imo. Pounce got significantly nerfed and bucking right now is super strong

You can knock an utah off you in seconds and take minimal damage while the utah has no stamina

[hollow canyon]

Well to be fair - in my experience I can't buck half the time when I get pounced by a Utah so there's that

[cedar shore]

Its a bit glitchy but running to a tree works aswell

or touching water..

[hollow canyon]

Can't run to a tree either, that's the issue

[cedar shore]

there are so many ways to immedeately knock off an utah and it makes pouncing so bad

[hollow canyon]

It's always the two in a combination

When the bug hits running and bucking aren't an option

[cedar shore]

idk why its not working for you but seems like a bug so i think we should exlude that for now lol

[hollow canyon]

It is a bug - it's been present since way back during update 2

It's just much more common now for some reason

Sometimes when you get pounced(typically mid-run) if you stop running you're unable to start running again and you can't buck

Which is... rather lethal

[cedar shore]

havent experienced that yet

[hollow canyon]

I've experienced it twice during update 2, after update 3 came out it's much more common though

I might make a video of it the next time it happens which probably won't be very long from now

Although then again the video will just consist of me walking towards a tree probably

I think it triggers when you get pounced mid-run and then decide to release "shift"

But it's just a hypothesis I'd have to test it on a free growth server to get to what actually causes it

Then again - do note that the pounce is actually in a way far more powerful now, the bleed is really lethal now

During update 2 you needed around 3 full pounces to kill a Carno

You can kill one much faster now via bleed

[alpine plover]

I simply don't agree with Carno mains wanting Teno and Carno to be equal when Carno is already faster and heavier. When you have 2 major advantages over your prey you shouldn't also be equal on every other front. Aside from running stam being too high I don't see anything too strong about Teno. As a Carno player you already have the previlege of choosing when a fight happens because you're faster.

As the thing that's supposed to knock others down while running in a straight line I feel like its charge is not much stronger than its bite, which is ridiculous

[hollow canyon]

Not necessarily - stamina allows Tenonto to force Carno to fight as well. I've already gone over this. Carno also takes more effort and time to grow I don't see anything wrong with these two animals having a 50:50 match up.

[alpine plover]

The Teno running stam should be nerfed, yes, but other than that, a Carno always gets to choose when a fight happens

[hollow canyon]

If Tenonto had a lower stamina then that would very likely be the case however currently it's not so Tenonto can also choose to force a Carno to fight. In general I don't see anything particularly wrong with this match up as it is. It's an extremely risky match up for Carno where a single mistake can cause you to die.

It's also very risky for Tenonto as you can get mauled if you get hit by the charge.

Then again - even if you get hit by the charge you can still technically take out a Carno if you land headshots on it.

[alpine plover]

I just feel like the charge is not strong enough in comparison to the bite. The bite is spammable as hell too, which is why I want its bite speed to be reduced

[hollow canyon]

Charge is "not strong enough" mainly because it got heavily nerfed and uses up whole stamina pool in 15 seconds. If you miss it against a Tenonto you can put yourself in a world of trouble. The attack itself is kind of okay-ish(very hard it not outright impossible to land on a competent opponent). Charge isn't meant to be doing damage, it's a crowd control ability, not a nuke.

It's not and never was meant to be a nuke.

[alpine plover]

Doubt.

And if its true, is that bad?

Utah is meant to use forest to escape carno

[cedar shore]

I mean its not THAT bad. you should be able to avoid most of its attacks but some will land on the tail. However with all the foliage cheating carnos its a whole different story

[novel tulip]

Foliage cheating sucks but it shouldn't be balanced around at all

Same with mixpacking and megapacking

[ocean wagon]

Me personally I feel like carno should be played as an ambush hunter, who knocks its prey over using its chargez and whilenits stunned they go in for the kill. Right now, carno feels way too much like a Utah with a stronger bite force. Its way too much of a brawler

I feel like all carno needs is a slower bite speed. Similar to the one it had in legacy. And it needs some sort of acceleration to reach its max speed.

[tight dome]

What is foliage cheating?

[novel tulip]

Using cheats to be able to see through foliage

[tight dome]

Oh. I’ve never experienced that before.

Can’t you just hop up on a rock where they can’t get to you lmao

[novel tulip]

Utahs can jump on rocks and obstacles, over logs, across rivers, etc

Tons of escape routes for them

Though foliage cheats suck because you can be spotted from anywhere by the cheater and you can't see them

[alpine plover]

Just going to say what my friend said who was told her friend. Hackers cannot see through rocks or trees, but can see you through foliage.

[novel tulip]

I think the weight becomes janky when you consider that its used to determine what it can pin and what it cant

Its especially weirdly scaled on juvi utahs, but I have no idea how balanced pinning is for adult utah

[lament cloak]

@alpine plover tbf, even a 400 kg animal going at the speed utah does know would knock over a 1000 kg animal. keep it pinned? probably not, but it would absolutly knock it down

[alpine plover]

yes, realistically yes

[novel tulip]

Pachy is very stocky and low to the ground though

[alpine plover]

but to FULLY get rid of another players controls for 10 seconds and give free uncontested damage to a Utahraptor just because is idiotic

[lament cloak]

I think its fine if pinned creatures get the ability to shake off a utah, basically bucking

[hollow canyon]

Debatable - a tiger leaping onto a boar relatively its own size does not knock it down onto the ground. It's generally rather difficult to knock down something larger than yourself. Current Utah pinning stuff twice its own size is neither realistic not healthy for the game balance-wise. It simply has to get fixed.

[wild cove]

Also the problem with utah pounce, unless I'm just stupid, is you can't really move faster than a walk if a utah is on your side ripping you open.

Of course I've only ever gotten pounced as a half-grown Carno so maybe that's why, or maybe I'm just dumb.

Point being, if you ever watch a hunt with real animals, there's a lot of lunging and half-running to get away. Knocking utahs off using trees or even just moving at all isn't a viable strategy as far as I can tell when you get pounced. Dinos just kinda casually stroll while a utah piranhas their side.

[hollow canyon]

That's a bug

It's been present since update 2 came out but it's becoming more and more common for whatever reason.

During update 2 I've experienced it twice. Ever since update 3 came out I'm seeing it every other fight with any Utahs. This has to be fixed asap because it honestly makes Utah much better than it has any right to be.

[wild cove]

That's fair

[golden coral]

@versed runeThe dismount is being fixed I think. As for the pounce being more generous? Sure, when there's no longer a slot on system, and a utah ends up on it's ass if it doesn't pounce the flanks or otherwise suitable spots. No more pouncing the head or tail and end up just fine. When the pounce demands aim, timing and skill, we can talk about it being easier to get on if you manage to hit the right spot.

[frosty heron]

Not more weight reducing on the Utah otherwise people will just ask even more to reduce Utah HP and that shouldn't happen right now, Utah HP is definitely fine as I've tested today, any further test will make it a glass dino

[tacit oriole]

Remember that fractures will probable mess with the balance a whole heap, and we need to get our hands on that before we know what further changes are needed

[sinful cove]

I have an idea for you: dont run up on a teno's ass as something way faster than it because you control the confrontation

Also it's true our shitty jp knockoff raptor doesnt deserve 500kg weight or 1000hp, it deserves to not be punished when it voluntarily dismounts with stam left but its scrawny goblin ass should have a lower weight and hp pool to match jt

[frosty heron]

Sure thing let's nerf Utah hp which already dies to Carnos with 2 bites only, why not let's make it so you die to 1 Carno Bite and 1 Teno tailslam, 1 shoot for everyone

[tacit oriole]

The impression that I get is Utahs have a buffed HP pool because of the issues with pounce, once that gets fixed I think we might see a drop in their HP because they won't need to brawl anymore

[sinful cove]

I mean if carnos bite is also nerfed with a charge buff then i doubt the bites to kill a utah would change much, but a carno would be rewarded more for landing a charge

A shrinkwrapped version of a 500kg dromeosaur that already has enhanced speed and agility from its namesake doesn’t deserve 1000hp

[tacit oriole]

Realism vs good gameplay

[sinful cove]

Utah is already unrealistic, and reducing its weight/hp pools with a fixed pounce wouldn’t be bad gameplay

[oak wind]

Utah is overturned

Not even an opinion, it is a fact.

god hp
god speed
god agility
god recovery
god acceleration
powerful skilless pounce
will be able to climb
decent stamina

[true sonnet]

You forgot jump and can fall more becaus of it

[tacit oriole]

and yet carnos seem to dominate numerically (or at least, in presence - post-wipes aside)

[dusty fable]

@versed rune you don't see the issue with having utah have 1/4 the health of a stego? Or a full bite of a deino crushing against that lanky ass body only doing half its health?

[novel tulip]

Don't think this is true, utahs are very easy to grow rn and only the bad/cocky ones get killed by carnos

If anything its probably even, just because all the people who want to play a big carnivore just default to carno and not utah

But I've seen both carno and Utah megapacks on the officials, usually the utah ones hang out at south pond now

[brittle dirge]

I don't think Carno's bite should be nerfed given how the bigger things it can brawl will eventually get buffs once more large creatures come in. It's charge and alt bite should be buffed though given how useless these abilities are. The group limit should also be toned down to like, 3, and we're good.

But on the Carno V Utah stuff is it really a bad thing if Utah ends up being a little squishier? It's such a good generalist with the best mobility in the game and with the added option of retreating to high ground to heal/escape from danger its got no real reason to be as "tanky" as it is. Now, this change to Utah shouldn't really happen until pounce is less jank and actually requires some skill to land while also not being so punishing with its dismount but that's just my thoughts on it

[wet sleet]

I think the bite is too strong, but maybe you are right and it should just be a little slower.

But it doesn't feel right how few hits to kill you need for Utah especially.

[brittle dirge]

I just don't like how Carno combat is just "spam left click to win" given how its charge is rarely useful and how slow the alt bite is with no added benefit to it. Cano's speed is fine imo but the trot speed should be swapped with Teno's and vice versa.

[sinful cove]

Teno doesnt need his trot turned into miserable carno trot, carno trot should just be changed to be about even with teno

[brittle dirge]

while this next bit is pure speculatory I do believe Cera will end up being the better brawler with more HP to work with and higher dps capabilities but we'll just have to wait and see on that

I do think Carno's trot should be a little faster but I wouldn't be mad if they were made even

[sinful cove]

I dont think a faster than teno trot is necessary, sounds like endurance predator level speed when it should be ambushing, an even trot would be fine. Its already the faster runner and can lose griefers with wallowing

Carno shouldn’t be encouraged to endurance hunt and a very fast trot may make it too much of a menace for future small dinos

[hollow canyon]

Probably a good idea tbh. I don't think nerfing Tenonto's trot is necessary as it has to use it for travelling so as to save its stamina for combat. Carno should trot at least as fast as Tenonto does.

And Carno's biteforce isn't too strong. This animal has really clear cut strengths and weaknesses - it deals a lot of damage, it runs fast when it gets going but It also turns like a truck , has a bad acceleration, awful healing time and a small stamina pool.

[sinful cove]

His small stam pool would be much less of a weakness if he had endurance predator level trot

[hollow canyon]

You can always nerf his trotting stam regen in that case

it won't be endurance hunting anything if you do that

As it is Tenonto has both a higher stamina pool and a better trot yet about the only thing that it can endurance hunt is exactly Carno and a lot of people still argue that it's not all that good at it.

[sinful cove]

I mean it can hunt down carnos if they used all their stam, carnos trot being faster than it is would be fine just not too fast

How long is its current standing stam recovery?

[hollow canyon]

I've got no idea, I pretty much never use it on any animal. Or well - I rarely do that.

Sitting down stamina regen is fast on both Teno and Carno - I think Carno regenerates it relatively faster although slower in absolute terms.

Do note that trotting, standing and walking stamina regeneration is to my knowledge different on every animal.

Alright, I just did some rough testing on a Utah(as I was playing Utah just now). It takes roughly around 135 seconds to regenerate the whole stamina pool while standing. It would take probably almost twice as long to do so while trotting and it would take around 175 seconds to regenerate it while walking. Those are just very rough estimates. I didn't test it in detail but yea stam regen is different depending on whether you're walking, trotting or standing.

So you can basically nerf Carno's trotting stam regen if it starts endurance hunting stuff with the new trot although quite frankly speaking I doubt it would be able to do that if it was to trot as fast as a Tenonto.

[sinful cove]

It could probably endurance hunt a selection of animals with a tenonto level trot, it shouldn’t be any faster than tenonto with trotting, matching tenonto's trot as a trade for shitty stam regen can probably work

Lile look at how slow magys run reel was, other animals in that weight range might be trotted down and worn out by something so fast

[hollow canyon]

I agree it shouldn't trot faster than Tenonto's current trot. I mean it could maybe endurance hunt something with that trot(as in something that isn't in the game yet) but honestly it doesn't seem all that likely to me and if it turned out that it could endurance hunt something then it could always catch that stamina regen nerf. I will try to test how quickly it regenerates stamina while trotting now but I don't think it's an outstanding rate.

[rancid bluff]

@harsh lark while I do believe deino being a cannibal doesn't make much sense considering modern crocodilians, it's the best way to reduce the population other than limiting how many people can play as it at once

[harsh lark]

Can you explain how it does? It might seem good in concept, but in execution it will be anything but. It won't introduce anything new, people already cannibalize in spades as deino. Cannibalization doesn't happen because "I'm hungry and need to eat" most of the time it happens because "We're megacking and that solo deino isn't in our discord call, get him".

You're essentially making deino spawn in the same place as it's preferred food. Removes any need to travel or even go on land when you can sit infront of deino spawns all day gobbling down juvi deinos. That's pretty much the opposite of what diets are meant to do.

[rancid bluff]

exactly, people are already cannibalizing as it, their diet supporting it would lessen the adult population further, also how would you just stay infront a deino spawn when the spawns are random, it'd be insanely ineffective and you'd be more likely to starve doing that

[rancid bluff]

also if the diet supported cannibalism little deinos would be less likely to cling to bigger deinos out of fear of being cannibalized

[vagrant mural]

its also entirely possible there will be other things on deino's diet besides itself, it doesn't solely rely on eating its own kind and thus still needs to kill land animals, its just when another deino shows up it would be beneficial for your own safety and diet to kill it

[rancid bluff]

^

[wraith galleon]

I always kill my own

[rancid bluff]

they always kill their own

[alpine plover]

maybe

[harsh lark]

There's been no implication that you can't fill your diet needs solely through cannibalism if it's part of your diet. It's not bad to have deino's kill each other, but it's also bad to reward it. Making deino prime diet for deinos means that every time a deino dies you're giving several juvi deinos a free boost to adulthood. Especially when most deinos die in rivers where only other deinos get access to their corpse. Like I said, it's essentially making deino self sustaining.

[wraith galleon]

i doubt cannibalism would fill all 3 diet requirements for deino

[harsh lark]

The 3 aspects of diets are proteins, lipids and carbs. As far as I know Deinos are made of all those things, so until stated otherwise I take it as it would fufill all requirements.

[vagrant mural]

you do realize there are multiple forms of nutrients, and that 1 food source will not sustain the dietary needs of multiple juvi deinos, if all dietary needs were fulfilled via one plant or body in your general diet, there would be absolutely no need for movement, and the devs have been very adamant of having to move around and eating multiple things to sustain yourself

[wraith galleon]

it wouldn't make sense at all for deinos to get all their diet requirements from a single source, that would go against the purpose of the diet mechanic as a whole

[vagrant mural]

^

why even have a diet system if you can get everything from a single body

[harsh lark]

It's only something that's applicable to herbivores, so they can't sit down in one plant spawn area their whole life. Carnivores naturally get forced to move around by virtue of their food moving around. Why would bodies that are made of carbs, fats and proteins not give you all the nutrients they realistically would?

[wraith galleon]

deinos dont have to move that much to get to other deinos

[tacit oriole]

Part of the issue is you grow more meat that you eat, so you could just put all dienos in a big tank and, as long as people keep spawning, they can canni each other forever

Which sort of ruins the niche they are meant to occupy

[rancid bluff]

doesn't this apply for every carni though?

[harsh lark]

Which is why cannibalism is a bad idea for deino specifically. Honestly cannibalism is more of a pro than a con for most dinos. Being able to eat your packmates when a hunt goes south makes megapacking way easier.

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, but dienos more so because of how big they get (and how constrained they typically are)

[wraith galleon]

deinos having to get certain diet requirements from other sources also encourages them to ambush land creatures, them being able to get by on only eachother doesn't make sense

deino cannibalism is good, but it should not and probably wont be their only diet option

[rancid bluff]

why risk a deino your size when there's a helpless carno you can lunge drinking

[tacit oriole]

I've seen it in swamp river, just dienos endlessly cannibalising each other with no real external food source beyond the occasional fish, taking up player slots without being part of the greater Dino community in any way

[vagrant mural]

chickens give me proteins, carbs, and fats, and I like chicken, but if I were to eat chicken every day that wouldn't be good, I need more varied foods in my diet

[alpine plover]

Fried chicken

[harsh lark]

Because believe it or not the majority of deinos suck balls at ambushing. It takes more patience, map knowledge, and skill than roaming in a pair until you find a solo deino to facetank to death.

[tacit oriole]

I mean, people do do this haha

[tacit oriole]

Plus, you know, shallows (and the hit registration issues with lunge)

[vagrant mural]

the solution to the issue is to have it so while cannibalism is an aspect of deinos diet, its not the entirety, thats it, you get rewarded for killing deinos and eating them every now and again,but you also make them have to eat shit like tenos and carnos and utahs and whatnot

you get deprived of certain nutrients if you rely solely on deino for food, just like how if I ate nothing but chicken I would turn into an unhealthy idiot

[wraith galleon]

precisely

[tacit oriole]

Deino play an important part in the isle, making getting water a challenge and not just another chore... The issue is the map has too many safe drinking spots (or people who use stegos to protect them while drinking)

[wraith galleon]

the shallows issue will be partially solved by diets

[vagrant mural]

and better map design

[harsh lark]

I would agree with that except for the fact that cannibalism has been described as a survivalist ability. It originated with Ceratos concept, as a "hardy dino that can get by if there isn't any good food around". An ability like that still forcing you to go after other food sources ruins the original intention, which is why I don't think it will be implemented in the manner you described. That's my main worry really.

[tacit oriole]

I'm sure Jace is well aware of the shortcomings of the current map, they seem a pretty talented individual so U4 map will hopefully give dienos much better opportunities for ambush

I mean the reason why real life crocs don't just cannibalise each other all day - apart from being a good way to go extinct - is probably more that injuries are a lot more serious IRL than they are in Evrima... In game you nearly die, just afk for 10min and back to perfect health

It's hard to make injuries genuinely scary in a game without being annoying as #@$#

[wraith galleon]

alligator cannibalism is fairly normal

[indigo turtle]

cannibalism as a boon to deinos diet in any was is just gonna encourage megapacking aswell tho

being able to get by on a quick deino snack every now and again until you can get some land food is just braindead and will make deino populations far more self sustaining than is reasonable

[tacit oriole]

Apparently 6-7% of baby gators end up being eaten by adults, wow

[vagrant mural]

there are numerous reasons for cannibalism in the wild, for cera its a general tool that makes it into a hardy survivalist, being able to stomach anything includes your own kin, deino has this option, as its more aquatic nature means "well I might as well eat ted here next to me as food is rare" and the other option is as you're aware, population control. diets are supposed to make you move, eat multiple things, I don't think having deino fall back on cannibalism is bad, but having to eat other shit is also a thing that they do, and every other dino will have to do. So if it encourages population control, allows it to survive when supply runs low, and has to be supplemented with other stuff as well, I don't really see an issue

[indigo turtle]

and even then you just bully other creatures off their corpses with your megaswarm

[vagrant mural]

there are plenty of videos on yt of croc cannibalism

[harsh lark]

cool

[wraith galleon]

croc

[harsh lark]

who cares about realism

[tacit oriole]

I'll take your word for it haha

[wraith galleon]

deino has every reason to cannibalize from both a realism standpoint and a game balance standpoint so

[harsh lark]

I will say though, what isn't realistic is when crocs form giant armies and make excursions on land to grab every dead thing 50 meters inland.

[indigo turtle]

the problem is that your population control method favors megapacking very heavily, as large groups of deinos will always have that fallback compared to solo players or people living within the intended group limits

[tacit oriole]

Most people do Sino, yes gameplay trumps realism but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a consideration

[indigo turtle]

it can be a factor but the main idea when considering realism is suspension of disbelief

[wraith galleon]

good luck getting enough diet food to grow and keep a deino megapack

[indigo turtle]

cannibalism will just make it that much easier

[tacit oriole]

The other issue is natural population control assumes that reproduction is based on current numbers... TI isn't constrained like that, it's player driven

[wraith galleon]

not if they dont get all their nutrients from cannibalism

[vagrant mural]

just don't make it so you can completely rely on cannibalism

how is it that hard to compute

[tacit oriole]

Diets won't force you to eat a particular species to my knowledge, you just get growth debuffs if you don't

[wraith galleon]

you'll be weaker too

[vagrant mural]

it doesn't "force" but it provides debuffs if you don't and buffs if you do

[indigo turtle]

it really isnt but the fact is that cannibals living in large groups will be able to go longer between meals because they'll get partial diet benefit with minimal risk of death

a solo player in the same situation has to risk a 1v1 with another large deino

[harsh lark]

Yeah but you know what makes feeding a deino megapack the hardest? Making it so they can't eat their first comrade who drops dead to last longer until more deinos grow in his place.

[tacit oriole]

If the debuffs are mild it won't stop people being canni only

[vagrant mural]

who said they would be mild?

[tacit oriole]

Nobody, just remarking

[wraith galleon]

there are plenty of things that would make it hard for megapacks, cannibalism debuffs dont need to be one

[indigo turtle]

they absolutely should be one, megapacking is so ludicrously beneficial if you dont punish it heavily enough

[harsh lark]

That's always what people think, and it never ends up being enough. Megapacking is one of the biggest problems with this game, and it shouldn't be met with the attitude of "I'm sure a slap on the wrist will stop em, no need for anything else." The game should be built against them.

[indigo turtle]

just the fact that you can be trash at the game and die and all your friends can just eat your body and gain benefit towards their diet is goofy as fuck

it doesnt even need to fill it all just the fact that your pack can fail and get rewarded anyway is a flawed concept

[tacit oriole]

Every carnivore megapack I've been part of - except one truly glorious Utah one - has ended up starving because they are too big, too obvious, too easy to just avoid

[vagrant mural]

there's also the issue of a giant deino megapack that solely relies on cannibalism being noticeably weaker than a solo deino who fulfills their dietary requirements, so if the solo deino just avoids them, the deinos in their weakened state will eventually die off and the solo guy will be fine

[indigo turtle]

if they're all trash sure

ive never seen that tho

[wraith galleon]

you dont seem to get that a deino megapack would just not be able to do much if they're not following their whole diets

[vagrant mural]

most megapacks are trash tbh

[tacit oriole]

I think that's being needlessly reductive. Big carno packs go through a lot of food and they are easy to avoid

[indigo turtle]

you dont seem to get how much easier it is to get full diets of part is just handed to you for free for existing in a megapack

[wraith galleon]

its not easier to get the rest of your diet if you're in a megapack

[indigo turtle]

stego cannot avoid them unless they hide as a solo player on the edge of the map

[harsh lark]

honestly don't get the contradiction here. How does allowing deinos to be more versatile in their food choice supposed to stop them from staying well fed?

[wraith galleon]

getting 1 part of it wouldn't be enough to sustain a megapack

[indigo turtle]

and a big enough carno pack can just trade stego head hits for carno body hits and just win

[tacit oriole]

Solo stego has way more problems than a carno pack, and it only takes 2 to kill one

[indigo turtle]

a stego body can feed a 7-8 man carno pack easily

[tacit oriole]

If stegos are solo and getting caught out, they are dead to any decent carnivore pack, it doesn't take a megapack

[indigo turtle]

yea but a megapack just has a latent advantage over a reasonably sized one

[harsh lark]

It's not, and this is a fact that's been true for most of the games history. Megapacking gives you more eyes to search for food and more muscle to kill anything you find. As long as a server is populated it's superior to playing in game intended group sizes. And if food ever does run out, it's only at the sacrifice of the people trying to play the game as intended first. With the cherry on top being the megapack usually logging before they starve to do it all over again the next time a server fills up.

[wraith galleon]

the server wont be filled to the brim with diet foods

[tacit oriole]

Like I said, every time I've seen carnos get to packs over 5 or 6 they've always starved on Evrima

[wraith galleon]

they want animals to have to compete over this kind of stuff, there just wont be enough for a megapack to all stay on top of their diets

[tacit oriole]

I'm happy to be told this isn't always the case but my experience has been very consistent

When I was running carnos I would always split if the group got above 4 adults, unless we were going fishing at pond

[harsh lark]

Anecdotes are cool and all, but I can bring my own and say I've never seen a megapack starve in evrima. Which is true, because I believe they bring benefits that make it easier to avoid starvation rather than the opposite.

Diet foods being limited is an excellent concept, but deinos diet food isn't "Limited" if it's literally itself.

[vagrant mural]

Deinos grow on trees

[tacit oriole]

I mean, that's an anecdote as much as mine is Sino

[wraith galleon]

we've been saying this whole time that deinos will most likely not have only cannibalism as their diet

just like every carnivore wont have to only eat 1 species

they'll have a selection of ones they like

[indigo turtle]

his anecdote which i also happen to agree with is based on like 5 years of isle

it has always worked out in favor of the megapackers

[harsh lark]

Where's the confirmation on that? You can say that but I haven't heard anything about it being a necessity to eat everything on your diet to satisfy it. It makes more sense with herbs who actually can't fufill proteins, carbs, and lipids from a single plant compared to corpses which have all three.

[tacit oriole]

If you could get a good, coordinated, discord managed megapack I'm sure it could work, most are just collections of random people who make heaps of noise and stand out in the open and teno packs, utahs, all the rest just avoid them

Or if everyone else was too disorganised and deaf to realise

Anyway, diets seems to assume that enough people will run herbivores to provide the required foods, and that hasn't always been the case... Unless AI fills the gap

NA1 ends up 50/50 carnos and dienos some days

[golden coral]

Alright. Since there are three different kinds of nutrients, it does stand to reason that you'll need three different sources to keep topped up. It's plausible that cannibalistic critters simply get more out of their own kind than others would, but they would still be weaker if they do not supplement it with other stuff. Or they just do get one nutrient where others would get nothing or even detrimental effects as stated. So you still can't survive on deinos alone, even if you get all the protein you need, you'll still get shat on by a deino who's also been eating the other two sources of food.

[tacit oriole]

Things may be different these days with how most people are in discord groups with lots of players communicating, I'm talking mainly about the last month or so not 4 years of legacy. May also be differences in time of day and server.

[harsh lark]

The implication here is that ai animals will be able to fill out what we're missing nutrition wise. So after eating a juvi deino I just go eat ai turtles? Based off what we've seen so far with elite fish I really don't think that'll make growing deino any harder than it is now.

And it doesn't remove the base issue of cannibalism aiding deinos more than hurting them anyways.

[wraith galleon]

we dont know if turtles are in deino's diet

[harsh lark]

We know ai would fill it's nutrition.

[tacit oriole]

Giving deinos more space will help with cannibalism I think. We have constrained deino highways that forces you to be near others at the moment

[wraith galleon]

if none of its normal preferred prey are accessable yes

i assume that your normal preferred prey will be significantly better for your diet than the ambient animals, which would just be so you aren't screwed if no one's playing x animal

[tacit oriole]

Do we know for certain that the plan is to increase server player counts?

[harsh lark]

If thats the case then why should deinos be able to sustain off of each other. If they already have ambient animals to supplement their diet, it's better to make them rely on ambushing land dinos to fill their dietary needs instead of giving them even more options.

Right now lunging doesn't feel like a necessity to playing deino, which is just backwards to me.

[golden coral]

It's possible they only put deino as cannibals right now to cull them. Since nothing else really threatens them after a certain size, and even before, unless the juvie is dumb enough to just chill on land without keeping an eye out.

[wraith galleon]

again, cannibalism wouldn't sustain their entire diet and we dont know that the aquatic ambient animals will either

i would be very surprised if deino didn't have a few land based animals in its diet

[tacit oriole]

Even if diets discouraged cannibalism deinos would still kill each other for sport or territorialism

especially if AI reliance is increased for micro nutrients

[wraith galleon]

most of the time that's what cannibalism is for for all animals, fun, its an "issue" that solves itself through the implentation of more playables and mechanics that have you doing things

[tacit oriole]

Animals, or players?

[wraith galleon]

players

people kill for fun rn cuz its about the only fun thing to do in the game's current state

and with such a small roster those things you kill are bound to be your own some of the time

[harsh lark]

Right now cannibalism makes peace easier for deinos. One adult deino dies and 3 other deinos start playing nice since there's food. On the other hand you'd have deinos constantly at each others throats if their preferred food was the carno or teno they managed to ambush after 40 minutes of waiting but only feeds one of them.

[tacit oriole]

Or because they think there are too many of a species, I know people who kill any baby deino they can because they don't like how overpopulated they are

[tacit oriole]

I've been fed a few times by KoS deinos who just kill their own and leave them on the bank. Sometimes food doesn't play into it at all

[harsh lark]

Which is pretty much why incentivizing cannibalism wouldn't make it anymore effective than it already is. Directly tying the deaths of a dino to it's own species sustainability will definitely make overpop a worse issue though. Not something I look forward to considering how the current ingame situation already is.

[tacit oriole]

I think you are saying that there needs to be in game mechanics to encourage healthy population control, which I would agree strongly with

The boom/bust cycles we keep seeing with carno/deino populations are a bit poopy

[harsh lark]

I agree with that, the biggest issue with evrima right now is how it's either dead at times with half the server being regrowing juvies or an absolute moshpit of adult dinos at center river killing each other in the span of one hour.

[tacit oriole]

That's actually a really good point, and not one I'd really picked up on - I'd just blamed deino overpopulation for the main hotspots being empty

[wintry anchor]

Utah does not need to be faster than a dryo it can simply just ambush it and use its pounce.

[mental roost]

^

[slim dragon]

One could argue that dryo doesn't need to be faster than utah if it has burrow and a good dodge either

[wintry anchor]

but if you make dryo slower than a Utah you lose the difficulty of catching it.
dodging should be used to deal with faster targets but if an utahs is faster than it dodging won't do anything cause a Utah is too agile.

[slim dragon]

Utah are still put to a stop if they need to quickly change direction. Also it allows to dodge a pounce and potentially lose a predator in the forest. If dryo kept its momentum after dodging, it would still be god-tier at escaping utahs

Also if dryo remains faster than utah then its dodge will only be useful against carno, because it is the only thing that can outrun it. And it's not necessary since carnos have a very bad turn and can be juked without the use of the dodge currently.

[wintry anchor]

I just don't see the reason, dryo is fine as it is utahs can catch it but they can also get away why change something that ain't broke

[slim dragon]

Well dryo is broken actually

[wintry anchor]

how so?

[slim dragon]

It is impossible to catch and much stronger in fights than it should be. People like to take dryo to murder utah packs or stegos
Though I'm not the best one around to talk about it since I've never done it myself, other people may explain it better

[sinful cove]

Cutting dryo’s sprint stam in half while also making him slower than utah just seems spiteful at that point

[slim dragon]

Well I agree the proposed nerfs are a little heavy

[sinful cove]

Sounds like “i dont want to have to work at all to kill a dryo”

[wintry anchor]

dryo is not impossible to catch if you know what your doing
and just decrease its damage if it's too strong in fights

[sinful cove]

Its damage is def too high

Things mouth looks like a finger nail it should barely hurt unless youre smaller lol

[wintry anchor]

yeah but there is no need for a speed nerf if the problem is its to strong

[sinful cove]

This thing is making stegos hide their faces in rocks smh

A speed nerf can come when it has a good dodge, but its stam should stay high

[wintry anchor]

while I still think a speed nerf is unnecessary if it does get a REALLY good dodge then it should be the same speed as an Utah but not slower

[dapper frost]

should be slower tbh, at the moment its a discount galli

[sinful cove]

We dont have galli yet so its fine

[dapper frost]

for now its fine I guess

[sinful cove]

It should keep its bandaid speed boost until its dodge is actually worth using

The dodge is so shit and lazily made rn

Dryo should capitalize on endurance and agility, while galli is the big speedster

[wintry anchor]

but a dryo is faster than a Utah it will be way to easy to catch

[sinful cove]

huh

Dryo should be a juke master, wear its preds out of just lose them in the undergrowth

[wintry anchor]

right now if a Utah messes up its ambush, than the dryo can escape that give it some difficulty if it was slower you could just sniff it down and kill it

[sinful cove]

He should be more agile and enduring than utah but a few km/h slower, his current speed is most likely just a bandaid. He didnt start out with this speed in evrima

[dapper frost]

the dryo would outstam the utah

[sinful cove]

If it is more enduring it can get away from predators who need to track it

Wear them out

[dapper frost]

speed isnt everything, dryo would use its good stam pool and excellent juking abilities to wear out the utah and escape

[sinful cove]

Exactly

So like when its dodge isn’t utter dogshit it can afford to be a bit slower than a utah

Think of how rn utah can juke a carno despite being slower

[wintry anchor]

true

maybe there some way that a dryo would be able to get away but the dodge would have to be really good then

[dapper frost]

it wasnt even that bad pre update 3 to escape as a dryo (back when its speed wasnt buffed)

[wintry anchor]

I just really like the idea that you have one chance and if you mess it up your prey is gone and you have to find some more

[sinful cove]

The dodge is unaimable and stops you in your tracks, pretty abysmal is ya ask me. As an animal in general it was just nearly as survivable as hypsi without the free adult spawnin

[hollow canyon]

Dryo is actually impossible to catch unless it doesn't know what it's doing... that is unless you're talking about AI but that shouldn't have any relevance to balance. Dryo should simply be slower than it is. There's zero reason for it to be faster than a Utah. It was perfectly fine during update 2 when it was slower. I'd still used it to hunt juvenile carnivores at the time but at least there was some risk to it. Atm there's pretty much no risk whatsoever in doing that as you can always just zoom away from whatever threat and even if you die you can just grow up again by sitting afk after respawning. Not saying all of this is wrong but all those things combined make Dryo a bit too good right now. This animal doesn't need to be this fast to be viable, just like Utah doesn't have to be faster than Carno to survive an encounter with it.

[sinful cove]

population limits will only make people switch servers, people should be allowed to pick what they want

[wintry anchor]

yeah but rabbits stay near there borrows 24/7

[hollow canyon]

@vale harness That's because Utah's alt attack actually deals increased damage compared to its normal attack unlike that of Carno or Deino.

[wintry anchor]

then every dryo I've ever met is bellow 2 IQ

[hollow canyon]

^

Utahs don't really pose a threat to player-controlled Dryos like... at all

You have to be asleep to get killed by one or perhaps actively trying to kill it instead of running away.

Yea same, I always just go after something that Dryo most certainly shouldn't be able to fight

the issue is that for some reason it can fight things that it shouldn't be able to fight

[sinful cove]

Theyre very small and can get out of sight much easier and can't supply a sustainable amount of food

Dryo is like the size of a cow

[hollow canyon]

I'd say that it's more down to the fact that rabbits just breed rather fast and have a far greater population than the number of them that actually gets killed by predators.

[sinful cove]

I guess its more like a fat pony

[wintry anchor]

well then i must be the only Utah who can kill player dryos

[spare badger]

Dryo should get a kick attack for when other small tiers come out. Like an emu kick or smth. Dryo dodge needs to go much further, not stop momentum, and get rid of that false move thing at the start.

[sinful cove]

Dryo is more like the whitetail deer of the isle

[hollow canyon]

You might just be the only Utah that ever encounters player Dryos

[wintry anchor]

that could be true

[sinful cove]

Not talking proportions as much as role

And dryo isnt anywhere near rabbit size

[hollow canyon]

I've seen two player Dryos since update 3 dropped. One of them was a scout for a mixherd, the other one was playing Dryo the way I or Dryo play it - by trying to hunt juvie carnivores. It went straight for my juv Carno but I didn't take the bait and got out before it killed me.

[sinful cove]

So what was your allo lion comment about if size does not matter

Also burrowing isn’t in, and dryo would be better off if they kept it that way. They don’t need it just because legacy had it lol

They should dump it and capitalize on agility and endurance tbh

Not make it some free food with low speed and stam so mashed potato iq utah players can kill it easier

Burrowing isnt unique

[wintry anchor]

other dinos are going to be able to borrow so in no way is it unique

[sinful cove]

Its fine just being able to commandeer burrows

5 animals so far, not really unique rven at this point

And so is the dryo in your suggestion

[wintry anchor]

unique means one of a kind can't be unique if others can do it

[sinful cove]

Low stam and slow, so you can grab it easier as utah

Low stam, low speed, basically legacy oro but bigger

Lower speed than its primary predators and low stam counts as low speed

Sure he can run away from an allo or something

Unique = being slow and relying on an ability a handful of other animals will probably have have better versions of?

I never said it should stay fast as fuck, that is galli's job, but it shouldn’t wear out fast

[vale harness]

i dont know about carno doing increased damage but deino does wayyyy more damage with its alt attack. so ion know what you sayin

[sinful cove]

It should capitalize on agility and endurance wearing out its predators

Slow conpared to its predators

Do you read

Galli = speed
Dryo = agility and endurance

Slower than its predators with its stam sliced in half. You clearly aren't even reading what i am saying so imma just dip see ya

Try baiting harder buddy-o

[golden coral]

When did that change happen, because no, as far as I know, deino alt do the same damage as the normal bite.

[vale harness]

its always done more damage. thats the only reason deinos are able to kill stegos so easily. does about 1,000 a hit. unlike its normal bite which does 500

[golden coral]

And I don't think comparing teno and utah alt attack is all that, since teno has a more clear attack, just not a variant of it.

And no, you're ever so wrong. It's because stego has 2x multiplier on head

Which would mean normal deino bite does 1K, and sure enough, stego dies in 4 hits.

If you were correct, stego would be twoshot with the altbite, and it's not.

[hollow canyon]

It doesn't, I've tested it on a server where I had admin privileges - Deino does exactly the same damage with its alt bite as it does with its normal bite.

[golden coral]

It would also mean a deino would oneshot a utah on anything but tail/tailtip if the alt bite did 1K damage or even similar. And it most certainly would oneshot utah on headshot, which I don't think it does either.

[hollow canyon]

I got to watch how much health the test target was losing with every bite - Utah lost 500 hp on a bodyshot with normal bite and 500 hp on a bodyshot with the alt bite.

As for why Deino can kill Stego and how it deals 1k damage to its - that's because Deino can target Stego's head, biting it deals 1k damage from what I recall. You need 5 such attacks to kill a Stego.

Stego dies to Deinos alt bites and not to normal bites for two reasons:
A) Alt bite has a significantly higher attack rate, making you able to dish out far more attacks in the same time span than you would with the normal bites
B) Deino's alt bite causes it to move forward during the attack, this way you can reach Stego's head through its body, due to how the locational damage works - it prioritises the area with the highest multiplier - your bite counts as a headshot even if only a small part of your bite-socket reaches the head. Meaning that you can land headshots on a Stego by moving forward and colliding with it through its body.

I sincerely have no idea where you're getting the idea of Deino's alt bite doing 1k damage but it genuinely makes it seem like you've never fought a Deino. That amount of damage would instakill a Utahraptor and take out a Carnotaurus/Tenonto with two hits if you got their head.

[vale harness]

from what i tested. deino took 7 shots to the head of a steg to kill without alt. and 4 with alt

5* with alt

[hollow canyon]

You must've been doing something wrong as I said - I've tested how much damage each bite does and alt bite dealt as much damage as the normal bite every time.

If you test it the way you did - by testing bites to kill - if you ever land a bite that doesn't land on the head you increase the number of bites by a lot since Stego's headshot multiplier is through the roof.

That's most likely what happened I'd say.

[golden coral]

Did you make sure to test from the same position and all? Because I have a hard time believing they would actually not only not give the alt stam drain when it's faster in attack speed and moves you, but also double the damage, plus the stego head multiplier on top of that. I don't know, that sounds like balance would be way off? Did you test if you oneshot a utah on a headshot with normal vs alt bite deino, that should easily solve the question otherwise.

[hollow canyon]

There's just a plethora of reasons as to why Deino's alt bite doesn't do more damage than the normal bite(although admittedly - I've seen some evidence of it allegedly bugging out and doing more damage at times, I'm not sure how reliable this is as those were accounts from other people). To start off - the character sheet of Deinosuchus states the biteforce for the normal bite as 500N - this means that Deinosuchus deals 500 damage as a base. With Stego's 2.0 headshot multiplier it means that you should be dealing 1000 damage to a Stego if you land a headshot on it with a normal bite.

[thorn spire]

Why cant Utah weigh less but keep its health

[hollow canyon]

Why would you buff it like that?

[sinful cove]

It doesn’t need 1000hp

[alpine plover]

Give it 0

[sinful cove]

Delete utah

[alpine plover]

Please

[true sonnet]

Be fair 0 it dies but not more than 1 👍

[alpine plover]

[frosty heron]

It doesn't need 1000 hp, it needs to die 1 shoot by any playable in the game

And Dryo should 2 shoot it

[sinful cove]

Selecting utah should automatically uninstall isle from your computer upon loading in

[frosty heron]

[brittle dirge]

[hollow canyon]

I mean - the damage output in the game is sort of balanced around Utah having 1k health so I'm not sure it needs to have less at this point, perhaps it's more so that the larger animals have surprisingly low health pools compared to Utah.

It's just weird that an animal 1/3 - 1/4th the size of a Tenonto or Carno has half their health.

[tall bronze]

Stego having the health of 4 Utahs makes me sad

[hollow canyon]

Yea that, Stego specifically has a really low hp pool, it might have the highest damage output in the game but it's still surprisingly squishy for such a massive animal.

[sinful cove]

Its squishy and has an easy to dodge attack, pretty sad. Reducing utah hp to 750 would be nice, smalls in general shouldn’t have such bloated health pools unless they’re brawlers/defensive against faster animals in its tier range, utah and dryo dont need or deserve to have the hp ratio of a tank

[jolly osprey]

Here’s hoping the reasoning for it being like that is because nothing would be able to hunt it successfully. Aside from well placed Deino bites.

I’m praying that once Rex and Spino gets in, Stego is buffed.

[sinful cove]

Yeah it was added way too soon and paid the price, the devs shit on stego and deino is busted, the two outcomes of animals being added before they fit in

[jolly osprey]

People will say: “Stego can run away from Rex!”

Hah! Next you’ll tell me Anky can outrun Galli.

[sinful cove]

If they make rex less mobile than stego the poor bastard will starve lmao

Itll be the cringe horner scavenger rex

[brittle dirge]

Or it'll just somehow exclusively eat Anky's

If it can ever reach adulthood

[jolly osprey]

Apparently, Spino will excel at fighting an Anky while Rex will struggle.

That was the very last thing I heard about the game’s matchup when it comes to Rex and Anky.

[ocean wagon]

Why are they making the jp3 spino

[frosty heron]

If Utah hp gonna be reduced then nerf both Teno and Carno damage

Carno it's 2 shoot currently, and Teno does 1/3 to Utah in the body with the claw attack, too much in my opinion

[willow niche]

I think fast standup should consume less stam

[hollow canyon]

Carno 3shots a Utah, Tenonto typically kills it the moment it lands any CC on it(although it needs 4 clawswipes rather than 3 to kill it from what I recall). Still - the damage output of all those animals is balanced around Utah having the 1k health it currently has.

To be fair I probably wouldn't mind having Utah's health nerfed and then that being followed by a nerf to Carno's and Tenonto's damage output.

[frosty heron]

Carno is capable of 2 shooting an Utah, 1 headshot and 1 body

[hollow canyon]

It is capable of 2shooting a Utah, yea but that requires 2 headshots.

Which generally won't happen unless the Utah gets CC-ed

[frosty heron]

No, 1 Headshot and 1 Body hits are enought

[hollow canyon]

Carno's biteforce is 350N, it does 350 damage to a Utah with a bodyshot, meanwhile the headshot multiplier for the Utah is 1.5 - 350x1.5=525. It would still leave you 125 hp short of a kill.

[frosty heron]

That didn't happen last time I tested it, sorry but those numbers should have some kind of variation value

I got 1 Headshot and 1 body and I died, full HP and full Adult

[hollow canyon]

They don't to my knowledge, I will check it whenever I have the chance but in general - I've never gotten doubletapped by a Carno as a Utah.

[frosty heron]

I did, and next time I should clip it because at the beginning I was surprised

But it indeed happened

[hollow canyon]

Do note that the way the locational damage works atm is that even if the smallest part of your head collides with the bitesocket during the damage frame you will get hit with a headshot.

Meaning that it may seem like the bite was placed on your body but if even the smallest part of your head was in the bitesocket you will get hit with the 1.5x multiplier of a headshot.

[frosty heron]

I'm pretty sure he landed the last hit on my body otherwise the netcode has a serious problem right now

[jolly osprey]

At this point, and considering Utah and Rex, I’m not surprised Spino is like that.

[frosty heron]

Well it probably does have sort of big issue as I got hit by a Tenonto tail slam far way from the hitbox

[hollow canyon]

Yea it's just more likely that there was some issue with the lag and desync I believe. The game does register damage in mysterious ways at times.

I'd say it's still better than what we had before though.

As for the Spino - I really don't think it looks much like the JP3 Spino.

The only similar thing is I guess the outdated body posture and leg-length?

[jolly osprey]

There’s some uniqueness to Spino, compared to Rex and Utah. But there’s still JP inspiration, not to mention it’ll even attack and hunt similarly.

Like jp3, it’s Godzilla with a sail. Still unique, but still similar.

[hollow canyon]

I mean - I don't think it's so much JP inspired as it's just inspired by the old reconstruction of Spino that's now outdated. Jurassic Park wasn't the only thing that recreated Spinosaurus that way back in the 2000s. It will have to attack similarly simply because its posture is very similar, I mean I guess they could make it tailslam stuff but that would seem a bit weird, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not that fond of the new Spino as I think the concept art for it looked better than the model but it's not bad and it still looks better than the legacy Spino imo.

[jolly osprey]

Oh indeed!

I don’t dispute that one bit. No disrespect to the devs, but Legacy Spino can get tossed into the abyss.

[hollow canyon]

Agreed, I really dislike it and seeing it be that tanky despite its lanky build was just weird.

[wintry anchor]

ok, this is what I don't understand why do we want to nerf utahs health? it pretty much gets two-shot by everything (except hipsy and dryo) and lowering its health will just make it get one shot which should not happen because Utah gets itself into so many fights so can someone please explain this to me.

[hollow canyon]

The main point is probably that it's unreasonably tanky compared to most of the roster. it has half the health of a Tenonto/Carno while being 1/3-1/4 of their size. It has a quarter of Stego's health while being minuscule in comparison to Stego. This to a certain extent causes the damage values of other animals to be where they are now which one could argue is a bit too high. I don't think the argument is to have Utah get onetapped by animals like Tenonto and Carno but more so that you could then lower the damage of everything a bit if you nerfed Utah's health pool. I honestly probably wouldn't bother with decreasing Utah's health because it would require a tonne of changes in the balance design of the game. Increasing the health of all the larger creatures might be something worth looking into though so that those health pools are relatively proportional to each other.@wintry anchor

[wintry anchor]

well we do know that stego will get a buff once bigger dinos come out

[hollow canyon]

We really don't, we just assume it will get a buff but I don't think Hypno confirmed that.

[sinful cove]

utah should be very high risk high rewars, it is much scrawnier than its irl counterpart to trade bulk for agility and speed, it has double the hp as his weight despite this, it shouldn't tank direct hits from something like a deinosuchus so easily even though deinosuchus is not in need of a damage buff

[wintry anchor]

oh really I thought they did

[hollow canyon]

Stego specifically is just one example that's meant to illustrate Utah's tankiness - it's an animal that's 12 times the size of a Utah and yet it has only 4 times the health of a Utah.

[sinful cove]

once utah gets a fixed pounce and desync is figured out it doesnt deserve to keep a tanks hp ratio, i think dryo also has this problem but idk

even deinosuchus has less hp than his bulk and thick skin may suggest it should have

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't nerf Utah's health really - it already gets murdered by a Tenonto if any crowd control attack lands on it. Carno threeshots it which is exactly where thse two should be in relation to one another as well.

[sinful cove]

tbf carno's bite should also be reduced, its charge should instead be more rewarding

[wintry anchor]

but utah doesn't really tank deinos hits one hit taking it down to 1/4 hp isn't really tanking it

[hollow canyon]

That's only if the Deino lands a headshot

[hollow canyon]

I mean - what about Tenonto? It already kills a Utah whenever it hits it with any CC(iirc Tenonto's tailslam does just marginally higher damage than Carno's bite).

Both Utah and Carno aren't even that good in the current game compared to Teno

[wintry anchor]

but still deinos can "technically" one-shot a utah cause they can grab them and drown it

[sinful cove]

it can literally do that to anything that isnt a full grown stego rn though

and as far as teno vs utah goes, idk, maybe it could not deal a cc with the end of its tail if utah gets a mor efitting hp ratio

also charge and tail slam should stop stinning if they hit your tail

would make the two less of a bitch to deal with

[wintry anchor]

and tbh I don't think deino should deal very much damage to begin with that way deinos aren't that strong on land

[sinful cove]

deinos damage is fine

its problem is its shitty alt bite

it can spin around and spam bite with better coverage than a stegos attack and not use any stam in the process

things like alt bites and tail slam should have diminishing returns on stamina to make them exhausting to use excessively

[wintry anchor]

i agree with the fact that deinos damage is fine my point is i don't think a deino should one-shot a utah

[sinful cove]

if it hits the utah on the front it looks stupid for the raptor to just run off

personally i hope deino's bite gets fracture attached that just screws over small scrawny goblin bastards like utah

[hollow canyon]

Are we talking about buffing Deinos biteforce to the point where it can oneshot a Utah or are we talking about nerfing Utah's health so that it can get oneshot by a Deino? In all the honesty Deino would definitely oneshot a Utah if it bit it on the torso/head.

[wintry anchor]

now it just sounds like you have a personal problem with utahs

[sinful cove]

no, talking about utah's theoretical nerfed health pool making him a oneshot kill from a frontal bite

[hollow canyon]

Realistically that's what should be happening. The only reason why this shouldn't be happening right now is because quite frankly speaking an adult Deino isn't really much harder to achieve than an adult Utah.

[sinful cove]

deino doesnt need an attack damage buff in the forseeable future, but utah doesnt need 1000hp when he is a jp ripoff fraud animal that is scrawnier than an actual 500kg utahraptor

utah is much more agile and lightly built than the bulky dromeosaur its based off of so it should also have the bulk

[wintry anchor]

but making a deino one-shot a utahs will just make more deinos go on land to kill things which it should not

[sinful cove]

if the utah is facing the deino it deserves it

this is a frontal hit scenario

to discourage land deinos their alt bite should exhaust them when they use it to brawl

[wintry anchor]

but let's say a utah was hunting something by the river what's to stop a deino from just running on the shore and fight them

[hollow canyon]

Deino is currently a bit too good in the game overall, it's just pretty stupid that a Utah doesn't get killed by an 8t crocodillian. While I don't think Deino is considered an apex animal in the game's general roster I do think it's in the general size-class/tier where animals should be oneshotting a Utah.

[wintry anchor]

the utah won't be able to do anything

[hollow canyon]

In normal circumstances? Nothing, Utahs should just get out of there instead of even thinking about fighting it. The only thing that would be stopping Deino from going on land should be larger terrestrial predators that can actually kill Deino if it decides to go for a trek on land.

[sinful cove]

the fact that deino is slow as fuck and utah is not

[wintry anchor]

but right now thats not the case

[sinful cove]

and if the utah gets lunged then gg to the deino thats how it works

[wintry anchor]

but its not lunging the utah it going 10 miles from the river to kill them

[sinful cove]

the utah can literally walk away

deino has shit stam and shit speed

if you, a utah, let a deino run up on you and kill you then you deserve a darwin award

[wintry anchor]

yes I know but what I'm saying is a deino should not be able to walk 10 miles from a river and still mess a utahs hunt

[sinful cove]

the only thing allowing it to do that rn is its alt bite

not anything to do with utahs hp

a utah can literally just walk away from deino

[wintry anchor]

right now NOTHING really can stop a deino no need to make it stronger by making its prey weaker

[sinful cove]

any utah that lets a land deino kill it deserves the death, balance shouldnt be centered around the lowest player iq bracket

utah shouldnt tank a frontal deino bite

[wintry anchor]

so your completely fine with the fact that deinos can't be stoped?

[sinful cove]

no, their alt bite is the issue

the alt bite makes them land brawlers

but a utah can walk away

[hollow canyon]

I mean - Utahs aren't the thing that would be stopping Deinos anyways. Whether they get oneshot or not they are one of the, if not outright the worst animal to use against Deino.

It's kind of like with Carno and Stego - Carno is literally the worst animal you can choose to go after a Stego. Same with Utah and Deino.

[sinful cove]

deino's alt bite makes it easy for them to bully packs off of bodies, if it was fixed then packs could more easily drive the deino away, and any mashed potato iq utahs that got hit would die like they deserve

[wintry anchor]

yes but if you make a utah one-shot by a deino that means that utah turns into a stick that anything could break they wouldn't be able to hunt anything bigger than a dryo

[sinful cove]

utah gets oneshot by deino from a frontal hit

well, should get

[wintry anchor]

and with the current dryo i dought they could even fight that

[sinful cove]

we arent talking about a deino biting a utah's ass and turning them into mince meat

utah's whole thing should be to not get hit

[hollow canyon]

Dronewarrior, the point is that if Utah gets an hp nerf most other stuff would be getting a damage nerf. Dryo having the damage output it currently has is not exactly a good idea either

[sinful cove]

it has crazy good agility, it is fast, it can jump out of reach

dryo is busted rn, it can kill stegos 1v1

[hollow canyon]

E.g. if Utah's health gets nerfed down to let's say 700hp, then Carno's biteforce would be getting a nerf down to 250N, Tenonto's tailslam would be nerfed down from 360 to around 260 as well.

[sinful cove]

750 seems like a good sweetspot for utah hp

a 25% nerf

[wintry anchor]

but if you nerf EVERY other dinos attack in a round about way your buffing a deino

[sinful cove]

carno and teno arent supposed to fight deino

[wintry anchor]

but what about a stego?

[sinful cove]

stego isnt getting a nerf in this situation

stgo is trash tier rn

[hollow canyon]

Nothing, it oneshots a Utah either way

[wintry anchor]

not true

[hollow canyon]

It oneshots it right now

[sinful cove]

also deino can already clap stego with alt bite

lmao what was that

another spam scammer?

[wintry anchor]

you sure stego one-shot a utah ive been hit by one and have had not died

[sinful cove]

utah can tank tail hits

atm

[hollow canyon]

The main issue with Utah having 1k health is that you need to somehow fit in all the animals that are larger than the Utah but smaller than Tenonto/Carno in between 1k and 2k health.

[hollow canyon]

Bodyshots and headshots one-tap a Utah atm

It's been tested by some people

[wintry anchor]

if you say so

[sinful cove]

imagine the slower utah sized animals who will need higher hp pools than utah to compete with it, those utah sized animals (like pachy) having almost half the hp as a stego who is 6 tons

[hollow canyon]

Not me personally but the evidence seemed to suggest it does get oneshot with a bodyshot. It does survive a base of the tail attack though

From what I recall Stego deals around 1200-1300 dmg with its thagomizer jab.

[sinful cove]

once utah's pounce is fixed which it seems to be getting worked on already, it has no reason to tank base of the tail hits either

since it would be able to dismount more effectively

[hollow canyon]

Disagree here

base of the tail hits shouldn't be killing it, that's going a bit far

[sinful cove]

i guess it could be solved by having that tail hitbox just take more reduced damage percentage then

at the base of the tail though, should still deal hella bleed

[wintry anchor]

but from what we know pachy causes fracture damage which will destroy utahs

[sinful cove]

theoretically, we cant know that yet

considering many different factors

how fast fractures stack and how much pachy deals per hit, how fast pachy attacks, how agile pachy is, things like that

it may need a high hp pool

for its size

[wintry anchor]

but why is that not the same reason for utah to have a high hp pool for it size

[sinful cove]

higher than an animal who is crazy fast and agile and controls the confrontation at least

because utah is faster than its enemies or more agile than them

mobility, hp, or stop in between. it shouldnt have both in high quantities

[wintry anchor]

from the way i see it people just want headshots to deal more damage to utahs

why just do that instead of messing with all other dinos stats

[sinful cove]

thats only one thing really, its stupid to see a utah get its face bitten by a deino and run off, but its also because of future dinos health pools being bloated and weird

[wintry anchor]

and why would that be the case?

[sinful cove]

a 500kg dino being a fourth as tanky as a 6000kg dino is weird as fuck

there is a big gap there, so how will animals in between balance out

[wintry anchor]

as you said before it depends on the dino

[sinful cove]

a dino who is at utah's size shouldnt have almost half the hp as a stego if it needs a higher pool for a brawler niche for example

animals should have health pools mostly balanced around their mass, with tweaks made for their playstyle and anatomy

this makes it a lot easier to have consistent health pools that scale in a way that makes sense

utah is fast and agile enough to dodge hits unless it is screwed over by desync/lag, once that is resolved then it will all be natural selection

[wintry anchor]

i do agree that once desync and lag is fixed utah will be better but won't all other dinos too?

[sinful cove]

utah has the moveset to avoid hits better than the things it is supposed to be fighting

also the devs put soe bs in his concept where he momentum climbs a tree or some bs, he doesnt need so many routes of escape and also 1000hp

utah is fast, has great agility, decent stam, can escape form enemies on rocks and buildings and maybe soon small trees

[wintry anchor]

i agree, utah should not be able to climb

[sinful cove]

he has more than he even needs

momentum climb should go to velo or something instead

but back to utah, it can escape hits in so many ways

so it should continue to do that, and be punished heavily for slipping up

[wintry anchor]

but utahs fighting syle is to bleed out its targets should it not have more hp to help it last longer in a fight?

[sinful cove]

its supposed to juke and pounce, it looks like its getting a better dismount so it isnt a sitting duck when it lands form a voluntary dismount

so it doesnt need to be tanky for its size

[wintry anchor]

true once the dismount is better utah will be much better at fighting

[sinful cove]

it doesnt take long to grow and it is only supposed to hunt large game in packs so if a lone utah gets screwed because it tried pouncing a stego alone (you dont even need to pounce a stego to kill it with utah honestly) then thats the utah's fault for poor judgment

a lone utah can survive quite easily without picking fights with high damage dinos, lone utahs can solo tenos and stegos if they know what they are doing

[wintry anchor]

true

so what I'm getting from this is utah should have a hp nerf so it's more high-risk high reward playstyle and to make the hp pools of future dinos less confusing

[sinful cove]

basically

dinos with a lot of speed and agility on their side should be punished heavily for being caught off guard and slipping up

things like utah, dryo, galli (probably)

probably troodon as well

like we see ptera get absolutely obliterated by even juvie animals if it tries to tank hits

because he doesnt deserve to tank those hits

[wintry anchor]

ok I kinda understand why people are saying this now

thanks for helping to clarify this

[sinful cove]

no prob

it can sound kinda mean like "nerf utah hp fuck utah" lolm though it isnt a pure utah problem like it seems sometimes

[wintry anchor]

yeah what i was getting from most of them was the where salty cause they died

which I won't claim I've never done

[sinful cove]

theres so much salt in these kinds of games lol its not hard to be surprised since so many actualy go to feedback to cry for nerfs if they fucked up in a confrontation

[wintry anchor]

well thanks for helping me with that talk to you later

[ocean wagon]

Another problem currently is that deino has no fractures to its bite atm. When update 4 releases, even if a Utah does survive the deinos first bite, the Utah should not be able to run away making it basically a death sentence if it does get hit.

I've also seen a few people before say that deinos alt bite should do 5% of its stam

I strongly have to disagree with that

[sinful cove]

I think alt bite should cost 5% by default, but as it is spammed the cost should increase to wear the deino out faster

[ocean wagon]

A crocodilian of that size should not be able to throw its body around at relatively high speeds, 20 times in a row or in general

[sinful cove]

Same thing with teno slam, current stam cost is fine but when its spammed it should cost more with each use

Like for example deino alt bites twice, those two bites cost 5% each, but then the next two cost 10%, then 20%. It punishes spam but not proper usage

[ocean wagon]

So sorta like the legacy Utah jump stam consumption?

[sinful cove]

Yeah like that

[ocean wagon]

Id be open for to that

As long as they're not able to do 20 180 spins with no breaks

[sinful cove]

Yeah that’s crazy lol they shouldnt be able to brawl on land like that

[ocean wagon]

How would y'all feel about deino taking some sort of slow small damage over time if theyre out of the water for too long(like a 20 minute timer)? I get the idea from irl crocodiles not being able to stay exposed on land for long periods of time due to them being cold blooded and not being able maintain their own body temperature.

[sinful cove]

I think them just getting thirsty fast would be enough

[slim dragon]

annoying and doesn't promote any type of gameplay so meh

[sinful cove]

If they wanna sit on the shore they should be allowed to

They should just be ineffective on land as brawlers and hunters

[ocean wagon]

It promotes them to stay by rivers/water sources. So we don't see a pack of deinos roaming the lands through giant fields like the ones im center