#balance-feedback-discussion | The Isle Official Discord | Page 222

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:18 PM

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you are telling me carno, like it should, has an ability good at hunting small game?

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I'm not you dingus

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I'm telling you carno is almost fine as is

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and doesn't need a damage nerf because you suck and can't fight a carno

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:18 PM

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yeah im saying its almost fine too

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:18 PM

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ok

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yeah

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but we are arguing for different things

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:19 PM

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full wolf and doesn't need a damage nerf because you suck and can't fight a carno

how do i suck when im telling you about seeing people fight them, not me fighting them

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:19 PM

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because if you lower carno's damage it encourages the drifting and turn fighting we see carno doing now

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:19 PM

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wait what?? lmao how can u judge carno if u werent the one fighting wth

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:19 PM

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but if we lower accel and give it bad turn it encourages hit and run strategy

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:19 PM

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grave veldt wait what?? lmao how can u judge carno if u werent the one fighting wth

yeah wait a second

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:19 PM

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p a u s e lol

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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mans really do be speaking from second hand experience

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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if they chaged carnos turn ability it would be balanced aswell but it doesnt look like its being changed lol

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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it's not going to change if the community cna't all rally behind something, because if we have a mixed message the devs won't listen

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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honestly just changing the acceleration to be longer would make carno way better imo and encourage its hit and run strategy

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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and yeah i did fight carnos, again im not talking about carno in general but about the damage it does when you get hit

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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what about it

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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dmg is pretty fine

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:20 PM

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its fine as is

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:21 PM

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a teno can take 5-6 body shots i dont see the issue

obtuse shuttle Dec 9, 2020, 6:21 PM

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when the trello card says carno lacks the agility of utah yet in game it isnt true

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isle moment

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:21 PM

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yeah like i said changing that would be good too but i dont see that its being changed rn

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:21 PM

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yea carno really needs its agility to be toned

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:21 PM

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obtuse shuttle isle moment

isle moment

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:21 PM

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i swear carno will be 10 times better at what its supposed to be if they toned down the acceleration

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:22 PM

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yeah it would

obtuse shuttle Dec 9, 2020, 6:22 PM

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if you are faster and stronger than something that cant really hide, you at least need to have bad turn and/or acceleration to balance

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:22 PM

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yup

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imagine rex baiting out stego attacks smh

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:23 PM

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its super weird rn

obtuse shuttle Dec 9, 2020, 6:23 PM

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like, the power balance between carno and teno is fine, carno is fairly larger, but teno should be able to dodge some hits, thing that cant do if carno turns and accelerates that fast

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:24 PM

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teno and carno is fine carno just needs its acceleration from 0-100 to be like 2.5-3.5 seconds

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maybe longer

stark knoll Dec 9, 2020, 6:24 PM

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carno's slide needs to last longer as well, at this point its a stop animation instead of an actual slide/drift

obtuse shuttle Dec 9, 2020, 6:25 PM

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yeah, it would also leave carno vulnerable to attacks of future larger predators like allo instead of making carno literally invulnerable to ambushes

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:25 PM

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stark knoll carno's slide needs to last longer as well, at this point its a stop animation i...

yes

full wolf Dec 9, 2020, 6:25 PM

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stark knoll carno's slide needs to last longer as well, at this point its a stop animation i...

facts

wary otter Dec 9, 2020, 6:25 PM

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yeah its funny seeing carnos run around like utahs

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 6:25 PM

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i dont like bringing legacy into evirma but like the acceleration on carno on legacy was pretty good

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:04 PM

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@ember ivy it already does this

icy mauve Dec 9, 2020, 7:04 PM

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Yea ^

ember ivy Dec 9, 2020, 7:04 PM

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i thought its on the head, normal damage, body less, and tail minimal?

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:05 PM

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That doesn't change anything

icy mauve Dec 9, 2020, 7:06 PM

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^ Literally the same thing. You're just giving the values different names.

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 7:06 PM

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body is normal head is increased and tail is minimal depending on which part of tail

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:06 PM

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the labels don't matter, the values do

ember ivy Dec 9, 2020, 7:06 PM

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it does change things, wdym?

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:07 PM

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it literally only affects the labels for the values.

ember ivy Dec 9, 2020, 7:07 PM

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bc u can one shot things if u can hit the head

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depending on the matchup

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its heavily dependent on the matchup for a oneshot with a head hit to happen

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:08 PM

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That doesn't change regardless of what you name these values

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 7:09 PM

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i dont get what ur saying

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:09 PM

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You take different damages depending on if it's a head, body, or tail hit.

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 7:09 PM

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yes

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:09 PM

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That's it. changing labels does nothing

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 7:09 PM

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?

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which labels

ember ivy Dec 9, 2020, 7:09 PM

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im saying an animals base dmg output, shouldnt stay the same if it gets hit on the head

toxic crypt Dec 9, 2020, 7:10 PM

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ember ivy im saying an animals base dmg output, shouldnt stay the same if it gets hit on t...

it doesn't.

golden coral Dec 9, 2020, 7:10 PM

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It doesn't matter if you have "normal" on head, or extra on head, for if something oneshots or not.

icy mauve Dec 9, 2020, 7:10 PM

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smh

golden coral Dec 9, 2020, 7:11 PM

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There's already different damage output depending on where you hit, so what's the issue?

slow shale Dec 9, 2020, 7:11 PM

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The way it is rn is that the body does a set amount of dmg
the head does more
and the tail does less
You're suggesting what already in lol

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 7:11 PM

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i dont even get what the issue here is lol

ember ivy Dec 9, 2020, 7:11 PM

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id have to test it again, nvm

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yall have a good day lol

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 7:12 PM

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yo this already exists wtf

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i dont get u

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"locational damage should be revamped, like this
Head-extra damage
body-normal damage
tail-minimal damage"

Is what u said and this already exists i dont get it bruh

ember ivy Dec 9, 2020, 7:14 PM

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i thought head did normal dmg, so thats why i put the suggestion in

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 7:15 PM

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locational dmg already exists so ye

vague steeple Dec 9, 2020, 10:38 PM

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Why would we assume a Utah that lands on a head, would not/could not position itself somewhere else more beneficial if it could?

If anything, I’d suggest such a repositioning come at the significant cost of stamina...so poorly aimed, but successful pounces come at the detriment of the Utah...reducing the effectiveness of the pounce by reducing its duration and improving the effectiveness of bucking.

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 10:51 PM

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y not just have the utah play the fall animation if it hits the tail or head of a dino?

clever quiver Dec 9, 2020, 11:00 PM

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what if the utah CAN latch onto the front of a dino however when this happens the dino can attack them with their head/bite attack and as a result can knock utah off much quicker than if utah hit their side, plus added damage for the attacks?

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same thing for latching onto the back- the animal just gets a free kick/tail swipe and the utah is knocked clean off

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🤔

grave veldt Dec 9, 2020, 11:15 PM

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That’s actually a good idea

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Post that in balance if u can that’s a rly good idea

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:22 AM

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@magic zenith

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@magic zenith Dont think Deino will throw off the ecosystem as it is a mostly water based dino. Dont think he will be able to keep up on land and may become food if found far from water. It will make you think twice about a river crossing or playing around in the swamps. All the other water based we had i felt were 50/50 water at best. Deino i think is 75/25, but we will have to see how Deino performs. If Deino is as fast as the land animals for extended periods we may have a balance concern with Deino.

magic zenith Dec 10, 2020, 12:28 AM

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ok, i was mostly concerned about deinos camping every major water source, one shotting everything coming near. Hence why i think beiposaurus is a better fit for update 3

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:31 AM

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hmm i see. I feel like you would be able to see it coming. It would be interesting to see how it all works.

tender hatch Dec 10, 2020, 12:34 AM

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@magic zenith Eh, it's fine. Deino is gonna be water locked. Besides, the only unhealthy part is SO MANY PEOPLE SWITCHING TO IT causing overpopulation. Same with Carno.

magic zenith Dec 10, 2020, 12:35 AM

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so basically you think the worst part would be deino turning into allopocalypse 2.0

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i can see that

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:35 AM

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should be balanced with ptera i see a lot of folks split between ptera and deino

tender hatch Dec 10, 2020, 12:36 AM

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It WILL turn into allopocalypse 2.0

Carno already proved that by showing a fraction of it lol

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:37 AM

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theres only so many water locations and at least cannibalism is natural to the species...

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@faint robin There has to be a number though where a pack of utahs can take down a lone stego. Stego should be able to take some down, but stego should not win that fight every time.

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:41 AM

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@sterile crane stego should have a chance to fight back

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Right now it's dying with no chance of survival to 6+ even unskilled utahs

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:42 AM

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maybe health pool is too low for a full grown stego

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:43 AM

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idk really, but 3rd screen is too much for 1 pounce

clever quiver Dec 10, 2020, 12:43 AM

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3rd screen? that doesnt align with my experiences

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:44 AM

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3rd screen and yellow pulse line

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Maybe, your utah was low on stamina to do full damage with pounce

clever quiver Dec 10, 2020, 12:44 AM

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no i was testing it on a server i admin with a single stego and a single utah

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:44 AM

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kind of like a lion on an elephant it should take a while

clever quiver Dec 10, 2020, 12:45 AM

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that was before patch though, maybe damage changed? idk

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:45 AM

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Lion really has no chance against an elephant.

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:46 AM

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i know they were having lots of trouble with pounce mechanics seem good...

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:46 AM

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But growing like 5 hrs to die to a pack of unskilled utahs

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Bruh

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:46 AM

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right but a pride takes down fully grown

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yeah i feel you there

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yeah solo utah should never kill stego

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:47 AM

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No pride can take down a fully grown African elephant, but that's not the right channel for that. Now solo utah really can kill a stego

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:48 AM

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there are videos of prides taking down elephants and we are comparing for balancing purposes..

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:48 AM

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It can pounce even on stego's tail

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and stego still can't hit it

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:49 AM

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those are the little exploits they are gonna have to fix down the line

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 12:53 AM

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I hope so

sterile crane Dec 10, 2020, 12:58 AM

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lol the number for lions was 30

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half a server to take down a stego...

icy mauve Dec 10, 2020, 1:28 AM

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Stego is more a kin to a giraffe than elephant

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 1:29 AM

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the size difference between an African elephant and a lion is bigger than that between a utahraptor and a stegosaurus do keep that in mind

icy mauve Dec 10, 2020, 1:29 AM

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And it only takes a few lions to kill a giraffe

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 1:30 AM

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Stego is at most around 12 times larger than utah while elephant can be 15 to over 30 times larger than a lion depending on whether we're talking about a female or male elephant(and then again I'm comparing the elephant to a rather large male lion)

vagrant inlet Dec 10, 2020, 1:32 AM

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Also in-game utah is completely fictional and literally designed to take on animals massive in-comparison to itself. Lions tend to take on cape buffalo at most

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 1:33 AM

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Yea Utah is very much fictionalised to the point where it's really hard to compare it to its real life counterpart because it has all its weaknesses pretty much removed altogether.

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Also Utah still does far better against things its own size and smaller than against larger animals - mainly due to the fact that pounce is an insta-kill on anything smaller than a Utah

icy mauve Dec 10, 2020, 1:36 AM

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Pack hunters are actually some of the most dangerous predators for prey animals including larger herbis. Packs are very effective at what they do. Killer whales out competed the megalodon to extinction. These animals are dangerous because they can organize and communicate. You look at wolves and lions and they hunt down larger prey often, but alone they aren't as much of a threat. Utah's are fictionalized to be like the JP raptors, which are actual one of the most dangerous dinos in the series. So much so that they have zero qualms fighting a Rex.

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 1:39 AM

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Well I'm not a specialist when it comes to JP, I've never liked the series all that much although I've got nothing against it but - iirc Raptors didn't do very well in their confrontation against a T.rex in the film.

icy mauve Dec 10, 2020, 1:41 AM

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They didn't but they weren't scared of it and didn't have issue fighting it.

thin frigate Dec 10, 2020, 1:41 AM

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hollow canyon Well I'm not a specialist when it comes to JP, I've never liked the series all t...

That’s a gentle way of saying they got absolutely annihilated

icy mauve Dec 10, 2020, 1:41 AM

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And it was only 2 of them

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 1:42 AM

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Them not being scared of it appears to be more due to it being just a film, in real life any animal the size of that raptor would run the hell away when confronted with a predator well over 10 times its own size(in this case it was more laround 30 times their own size I think)

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Overall have we seen them take on any other large animals in the series?

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I haven't read the books so I can't really speak in detail about it and it's a shame since JP Velociraptor appears to be the closest thing and the inspiration of our Utahraptor

icy mauve Dec 10, 2020, 1:47 AM

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Yeah, again they are fictional versions that the game is based on. In reality the evidence that raptors were pack hunters isn't much. In fact most of the evidence points to the opposite. They were opportunist when it came to hunting.

vague steeple Dec 10, 2020, 2:17 AM

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So the Stego tail attack doesn’t interrupt the pounce?

icy mauve Dec 10, 2020, 2:22 AM

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No, but if you smack a Utah that is trying to pounce you, then they will mostly die and not be a threat

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Just don't be alone

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if you have a friend they can bite the utahs that are on you

vague steeple Dec 10, 2020, 2:52 AM

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Ok, so it does interrupt the pounce if it hits before the Utah lands the pounce...

lean shoal Dec 10, 2020, 3:25 AM

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carno is almost twice ceratos weight.

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even as a brawler cerato probably wont be able to kill a carno easily.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:39 AM

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Wonder how cera vs carno is gonna work out

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Not gonna talk about magy

lean shoal Dec 10, 2020, 3:48 AM

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carno rams it and knocks it over. cera would have a good chance in jungle but would loose in the opean.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 4:02 AM

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i wonder how cera vs teno is gonna be

lean shoal Dec 10, 2020, 4:08 AM

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probably really scary for both. tenonto would probably have the upper hand defensively but be worse offensively.

coral rock Dec 10, 2020, 5:23 AM

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I really want running while swinging back for stegosaurus.

alpine plover Dec 10, 2020, 5:26 AM

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We got that in Legacy

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And it was awful

coral rock Dec 10, 2020, 5:39 AM

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How come?

meager ice Dec 10, 2020, 6:06 AM

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people saying carno needs nerf and stego needs buff really blows my mind. carno gets bodied by stegos and raptors, leaving only small herbis and juvis for them to kill. stego 1 shots anything from basically most stages of it life, not sure why a buff is desirable.

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 6:42 AM

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Really? Utah is designed to hunt large animals, especially in packs? Bruh, it's called "No Balance", when stego has no chances to defend against a pretty small pack of unskilled utahs just because pounce do too much damage. Looks like there are lots of "docktahs" here, who like utah being too strong. 3rd screen and yellow pulse line from one pounce to an animal 5 times bigger...

meager ice Dec 10, 2020, 6:43 AM

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It takes 4-5 pounces to kill. So long as you have 2-3 stegos, you should be safe from most raptor packs unless you get swamped by a mega pack of like 20

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 6:44 AM

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1 utah is pretty capable of killing a stego now

meager ice Dec 10, 2020, 6:45 AM

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Yeah, but that relies on the stego being pretty bad and solo, and the raptor being extremely cautious and able to bait out tail swipes

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Just group up with a bunch of other stegos, reduces death by Utah by like 90%

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(And also bucking is pretty good in the 1v1 too)

marble pond Dec 10, 2020, 7:18 AM

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I was under the impression that bucking didn't work.

finite solstice Dec 10, 2020, 7:19 AM

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I think people said that bucking is bugged atm

marble pond Dec 10, 2020, 7:20 AM

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Yup. Bucking a pouncer does not cause their stamina to decay faster. According to patch notes under the "Known Issues" section.

meager ice Dec 10, 2020, 7:22 AM

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Ah, well when it does work properly you will have that going for you

clever quiver Dec 10, 2020, 8:27 AM

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moby you can drop bodies with g

true ginkgo Dec 10, 2020, 8:46 AM

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@magic zenith We have basically an apex level animal already; stego. Currently stego is just so powerful nothing can really hunt it, so deino would be a good way of adding some danger. Deino can't disrupt the ecosystem much either as it's limited to water.

Deinos will be killing stegos while they drink, while stegos kill deinos which try to chase them on land.

faint robin Dec 10, 2020, 9:14 AM

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@true ginkgo utahs can easily kill a stego

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 9:15 AM

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According to statements from Punch and Filipe neither Deino nor Stego are apex creatures.

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And yea Utahs are pretty efficient at killing Stegos, to some extent they are too good at it I'd argue, then again Stego itself is way too good against everything with the exception of Utah's pounce attack.

true ginkgo Dec 10, 2020, 9:20 AM

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With the current balance I could easily picture a small group of utahs pouncing on a deinos back and killing it in the same way they do stego. Or even easier as it doesn't have that wide tail swing to hit things in all directions.

alpine plover Dec 10, 2020, 12:28 PM

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Changing stats by percentages should only ever be minimal, glad you understood that.
The I only want perks like those to be far and few between. I'd rather have an expansive perk system to make every dinosaur different from the last without breaking out of niche's

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 1:19 PM

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true ginkgo With the current balance I could easily picture a small group of utahs pouncing ...

tbh this to some extent then again - I think Deino should generally be capable of running into water. Utahs are pests as they always have been though and they do far better at hunting larger things than they used to in legacy.

true ginkgo Dec 10, 2020, 1:29 PM

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Yeah they seem almost specialised in it now. 4 utahs can kill an adult stego in seconds. I suspect that a deino which isn't close enough to water will end up dead very fast if utahs turn up.

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Unless this behaviour vs large animals isn't intended.

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 2:07 PM

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@cedar shore utahs ability to pounce is incredibly op at times. if you get two utahs to pounce a full adult carno at full stam, its a gaurenteed kill. none of the pack even needs to die. thats why it should remain as something only 100% grown utahs can access, for its power is immense. pounce is an absolute KILLER

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:06 PM

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acoustic palm <@!256446321546887168> utahs ability to pounce is incredibly op at times. if you...

Well juvi utah punce should obviously not have the same strenth as adults but it should still be possible as it is the only way utahs can fight as of now, but yes it is overpowered and too easy to land right now.

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:09 PM

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i definitly would not say its their only way to fight. it sounds like you rely too heavily on pounce. its the best source of damage but you can still fight with bite

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:09 PM

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Not really against bigger targets, you will most likely just get hit yourself

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Ive seen utahs try fight like in legeacy and it does not work, at all

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:10 PM

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one utah in legacy could kill a rex

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:10 PM

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I dont mind that beeing possible tbh

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:10 PM

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what

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omg

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:10 PM

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its very very hard to do

mellow zenith Dec 10, 2020, 3:10 PM

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Utah attack speed is trash at the moment, so yeah pounce is the way too go

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:10 PM

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this is how to not balance things lol

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:11 PM

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Why shouldnt an insanely skiled utah be able to kill a rex? Sounds pretty balanced to me.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:11 PM

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utah shouldnt be winning a 1v1 ever with a rex

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no

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:11 PM

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just beacuse its unrealistic..

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:11 PM

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thats horrible balancing

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wtf

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:11 PM

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i liked how skill based legeacy combat was

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:11 PM

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imagine spending 6 hours on a dino to lose something way way less then ur weight and ur growth time

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wtf

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:12 PM

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But its not like every utah is able to kill a rex. Its very very rare and like 0.01% of players can actually like

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kill it

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:12 PM

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rn evirma is going in the direction it should be

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legacy combat was trash

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dinos running through each other

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:12 PM

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its not that good but its predictable and rather balanced,

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I like that there is a lot of skill involve

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:12 PM

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if u like it so much go back to legacy

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but evirma is not gonna be like legacy

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:12 PM

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Evrima is better

mellow zenith Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

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if people want a pounce nerf, utah bite need a speed buff for sure

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

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doesnt mean that envrima should have skill based combat

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

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skill should only be involved to a certain limit

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

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hell na

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

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ok just stop lol

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ur balancing is horrible

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

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when you say a utah should be able to kill a rex in a 1v1 if they are skilled enough, thats like saying a 6 year old should be able to win against john cena in a fight if he knows how to punch correctly

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:13 PM

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exactly

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like wtf

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:14 PM

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if an insanely skilled rex were to fight an insanely skilled utah the rex would win. I have played rex a decent amount and never gotten killed by utahs or dilos. and trust me i have had some really experienced ones try kill me

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so its not like utahs will just kill you

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:14 PM

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dont bring legacy into this legacy was a flawed code thats why they made evirma

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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regaurdless of skill the weak and wimpy 6 year old doesnt win against john cena

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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Utah can fight with its bite perfectly fine in Evrima for most of the time until very recently biting was the way to go - you wouldn't use the pounce against Tenonto because it was pretty much certain death and Utahs still dumpstered Tenontos with ease

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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If they dont add skill to combat the game will be so so booring

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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skill should only be with in ur tier

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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Rex shouldn't have to be insanely skilled to win against a Utah

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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yea

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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they dont have to be

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:15 PM

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like no one would play the game if an insanly skilled utah kills rexes

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that balancing is horrible

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:16 PM

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i mean utahs killing rexes are very rare but it should still be possible. There have been honey badgers killing littearly buffalos in our time

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:16 PM

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Like what kind of logic is that? Rex can't disengage from this fight, it takes much longer to grow while Utah takes no time at all, is fast and agile beyond any reason and has a tonne of stamina. Rex should be dumpstering a Utah if Utah's dumb enough to fight it 1v1

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:16 PM

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cedar shore i mean utahs killing rexes are very rare but it should still be possible. There ...

source?

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:16 PM

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But dilo killing a rex is ok or no?

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:16 PM

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no obvi not

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:16 PM

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Depends on Dilo's balance

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:17 PM

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its incredibly stupid for them to make it even in the realm of possibility for a utah to kill something 10x its own weight. not everything has to be given the ability to kill anything. thats bad balancing. some things have to be unable to fight other things. with your logic we are also saying hypsis should be able to kill magy if they are good enough, just because everything in the game HAS to be able to kill anything in the game if they are good enough

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:17 PM

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skill should only be to a certain point in the game. After that u should be forced to get more ppl if u wanna take a bigger dino down

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:17 PM

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If it grows longer is not that fast and it can be caught by the Rex more so than Utah then it should have a better chance. For the most part though - no, it should be at a severe disadvantage.

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:17 PM

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I cant find the source rn but just use honey badgers as an example for utahs

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:17 PM

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i think ur stuck on legacy

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:18 PM

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Rex isn't even 10times the weight of a Utah, it's more around 15+ times the size of Utah

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:18 PM

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i dont play legeacy lol

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:18 PM

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Rex is not a buffalo

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:18 PM

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exactly what lion said. you can only be so skilled when fighting someone 30 times heavier and larger and stronger than yourself

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:18 PM

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It's more like a tiger or a grizzly bear - do you see those getting killed by animals the size of a honey badger or a jackal?

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:18 PM

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lmao imagine a 7 year old tryna fight floyd mayweather

drowsy shell Dec 10, 2020, 3:19 PM

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I mean what if it was a pack of honey badgers

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:19 PM

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grave veldt lmao imagine a 7 year old tryna fight floyd mayweather

lmao thats so similar to what i said earlier

drowsy shell Dec 10, 2020, 3:19 PM

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with human brains, bro

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:19 PM

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lol

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yo if u wanna play a game that requires high skill celiengs go play some other game

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:20 PM

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well if theres a PACK of utahs, then yeah, it should be able to kill it. but up is suggesting a utah should be able to beat a rex in a 1v1

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:20 PM

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Obviously the rex should be an an increadible advantage, however utahs shouldnt be bottlenecked with how good they can be. The fight might be near to impossible but it should never be impossible

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:20 PM

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They'd have to be willing to commit suicide to take that tiger down and they'd still have a very poor chance of succeeding - this is about a 1v1 scenario btw. UpInSky is suggesting that Utah should have a chance to 1v1 an apex.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:20 PM

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if the rex is somewhat capable the utah should die no matter what

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:20 PM

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I mean - unless the Rex is healing faster than utah can damage it the fight isn't impossible.

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:20 PM

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yea

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:21 PM

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cedar shore Obviously the rex should be an an increadible advantage, however utahs shouldnt ...

nah it should be impossible. its impossible for a 6 year old to beat john cena, and its impossible for a utah to fight a rex who know how to use wasd and click

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:21 PM

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ofc the fight isnt impossible

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but if the both dinos r somewhat smart the rex shouldnt die

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no matter what

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:22 PM

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The only problem you guys have with a utah possibly beeing skilled enough to take down a rex is only based on the fact that it is unrealistic and you ignore all gameplay aspects.

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littearly

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:22 PM

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so you really agree with the idea of a 6 year old being able to beat the hulk in a 1v1 boxing match?

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:22 PM

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The problem is that Utah is not forced to fight the Rex - it can always get out of that fight, Rex however can't it has to fight the Utah, it also takes many times longer to grow.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:22 PM

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bruh how would u feel if u spent 6 hours growing a dino and then a dino that takes almost 3 times less then u kills u

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:22 PM

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how about we stick to taliking about the game?

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:22 PM

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It's neither realistic nor does it make any sense gameplay-wise.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:23 PM

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exactly

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:23 PM

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Unless the Rex player goes afk or decides to play with their feet on the keyboard and hands tied behind their back.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:23 PM

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if u wanna play a skill type game then go play something like idk a fighting game like mk

inland lagoon Dec 10, 2020, 3:23 PM

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I think it should be connected with time to grow. If rex grows 9 hours, utah 1.5 it should be imposdible. If rex grows 4 hours, then balance in legacy was ok.

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:24 PM

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grave veldt bruh how would u feel if u spent 6 hours growing a dino and then a dino that tak...

Yes and it should all come down to balance with how skilled each player are. If they are equal skill level the rex should practicly nearly allways win. However if the rex is bad and the utahs has like 1k+ hours of experience it should be able to kill it.

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:24 PM

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its a skill type game, but once again, skill only goes so far when fighting something 30x all of your stats

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:24 PM

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cedar shore Yes and it should all come down to balance with how skilled each player are. If ...

no thats stupid and thats why no one liked legacy

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:25 PM

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Yea Rex isn't gonna have a growth time of 4h, if its growth somehow ends up being 4h long, Utah should be capable of soloing it if there's a big enough difference in skill.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:25 PM

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nah rex is gonna be 6 hours most likely

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:25 PM

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if the utah is able to kill a rex then it should have a growth time simlar to a rex

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:25 PM

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hollow canyon Yea Rex isn't gonna have a growth time of 4h, if its growth somehow ends up bein...

yea thats pretty much my entire point

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:25 PM

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deino was said to be 6 so im sure rex would 6 as well

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:25 PM

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cedar shore Yes and it should all come down to balance with how skilled each player are. If ...

What... you're saying Rex should practically, NEARLY always win if they are at the same skill level?

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Rex is almost definitely going to have a longer growth time than Deino

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:26 PM

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hollow canyon What... you're saying Rex should practically, NEARLY always win if they are at t...

Okay scrap that it should allways win, unless the utah strategicly attacks it while its injured or something like that

inland lagoon Dec 10, 2020, 3:26 PM

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If deino will be 6, them rex would be 9. Deino is gonna be the cutted version nearly 8m long.

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:26 PM

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And we don't know Deino's growth time either.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:26 PM

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on a 1v1 both same skill level rex should win everytime

hollow canyon Dec 10, 2020, 3:26 PM

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Punch apparently said that they haven't yet decided how long Deino's going to grow

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:26 PM

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uuuh no one is going to spend 9 hours growing a rex

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:26 PM

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lmao 9 hours

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:27 PM

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grave veldt on a 1v1 both same skill level rex should win everytime

Thats what i have been saying

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:27 PM

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yea thats literally all im saying

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skill should only come to a certain point

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:27 PM

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youve been saying that a utah should be able to kill the rex if they were better than the rex. a utah is gonna have to be BEYOND better

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:27 PM

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you are saying that skill should have a cap

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:27 PM

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yes

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:28 PM

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acoustic palm youve been saying that a utah should be able to kill the rex if they were better...

YESss it has to be waay beyon better

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:28 PM

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omg im so skilled at utah i can kill a brachi

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this is why skill caps need to be a thing

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:28 PM

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I dont agree on skill caps but allright

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:28 PM

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grave veldt omg im so skilled at utah i can kill a brachi

exactly. its a stupid idea and thats why when you read the sentence it sounds stupid

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:28 PM

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exactly

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:29 PM

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yea it sounds really stupid and brachi should be borderline impossible but never impossible

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to kill as utah

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:29 PM

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up, why do you whole heartedly believe that the 6 year old ever wins the fight against the hulk

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:29 PM

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............

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:29 PM

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lmao yeah i said that

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:29 PM

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cedar shore yea it sounds really stupid and brachi should be borderline impossible but never...

what even is this sentence

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wth

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:30 PM

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?

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:30 PM

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thats probably the worst statement ive ever heard

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:30 PM

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saying that utah should even possibly have the chance to kill brachy is the exact equivelent to "the 6 year old can win the fight against the hulk"

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:30 PM

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read below it dude as one sentence

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:30 PM

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holy shit

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smh

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:31 PM

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you said that it should be borderline impossible but not impossible. no, it should be impossible. it shouldnt even be in the realm of existence

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:31 PM

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just give rex fucking wings as well

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:31 PM

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facts

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just like "well the 6 year old winning the fight against the hulk shouldnt be imposible"

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sorry master oogway, sometimes things are impossible

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:32 PM

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you guys arent really responding with any new points, all that you have been saying so far is just that is it unrealistic and thats it. And yea i agree on that but im talking more from a gameplay aspect and player enjoyment when it comes to combat.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:32 PM

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but ur statement makes player enjoyment worse

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:32 PM

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how?

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:32 PM

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no one wants to grow a rex and die to 1 utah

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:33 PM

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exactly

golden coral Dec 10, 2020, 3:33 PM

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If a rex and utah is equally skilled, the utah shouldn't really be able to win. But if a utah is really good, and the rex is crap all around, then well, the utah would eventually win I guess?

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:33 PM

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yes

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:33 PM

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yes thats fine

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but at same skill cap there shouldnt be a chance

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:33 PM

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yes thats okay, but if the rex is anywhere decent at the game the utah should never be able to win

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:33 PM

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grave veldt no one wants to grow a rex and die to 1 utah

And lion that just sounds like a complaint from someone who is very bad at rex. (not saying you are)

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:34 PM

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rex isnt even in

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wdym

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:34 PM

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acoustic palm yes thats okay, but if the rex is anywhere decent at the game the utah should ne...

I agree, but the more utahs the harder for the rex

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more utahs makes it easier for the utahs

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:34 PM

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no pause more utah and 1 rex is way different then 1v1

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in a 1v1 utah vs rex at same skill cap utah should always lose

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:34 PM

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nah nah nah, up, did you forget you were saying a SINGLE utah should be able to win? we already established earlier that if it was a pack then yeah it should be possible

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:34 PM

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because the utah can just run away

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:34 PM

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grave veldt in a 1v1 utah vs rex at same skill cap utah should always lose

i have said that allready

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:35 PM

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yea so what r we even arguing about lol

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:35 PM

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that is the rex sucks and the utah is godly the utah could eventually win a fight

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:35 PM

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sure that works ig

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:35 PM

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allright i guess we have concluded then lol

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:35 PM

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honestly that should just go for anything tbh

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if someone is brain ded they should die and learn what to do

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:36 PM

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yes finally you understand the point i have been trying to make

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:36 PM

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welp alr then lol

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TI_dryoAAA

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:37 PM

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exactly. what you were saying earlier was that if the rex is decent and the utah is good at the game then the utah should be able to win. THAT makes no sense, not "the rex is so shit that it could lose to a utah"

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:37 PM

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yeah i kinda mistated that, it shouldnt usually win.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:38 PM

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honestly i gtg and do work but lets just conclude that same skill cap utah should never win and if the utah is good and rex is brain ded it should deserve to die

inland lagoon Dec 10, 2020, 3:38 PM

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I would say there should be a risk for utah to be just crushed by foot.

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:38 PM

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can we agree on that

cedar shore Dec 10, 2020, 3:38 PM

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yea

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 3:38 PM

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ight

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noice

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 3:40 PM

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yeh

twilit kraken Dec 10, 2020, 4:20 PM

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Input for evrima future when we have rain....animals CAN scent in rain though it DOES make it harder to track.

Therefore the compass should still show when scenting as well as bushes, water and carcasses. What the rain SHOULD do is make it harder to smell out footprints.

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 4:24 PM

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i agree

grave veldt Dec 10, 2020, 5:04 PM

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yea that works

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 5:27 PM

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@edgy plover that would be a good idea if all the dinos werent already achieving what wouldve been their ambush speed by sprinting

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 7:05 PM

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@vague steeple thats a great idea, and would work perfectly for creatures like anky (COUGH COUGH ANKY DOESNT HAVE TO BE A BAD DINOSAUR VIDEO REFERENCE COUGH COUGH)

inland lagoon Dec 10, 2020, 8:16 PM

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@cocoajin#9771 probably doesn't need additional mechanics. Weight+ raw works quiet well, just needed to be balanced.

acoustic palm Dec 10, 2020, 8:30 PM

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@rancid chasm we could do what you said, which is waste the programmers time and make them do all that work, or we could just make it so that servers can enforce their rules? like, idk, giving them the option to change the pack limits?

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way simpler to just give servers the option to lower or raise pack limits and have mods that enforce their rules than to program some super complicated thing that takes the control out of the players hand

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they busy enough fixing the current ai, no need to make PLAYERS into ai

wary otter Dec 10, 2020, 9:02 PM

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Yeah i dont think you know how that works Derptah lol

rancid chasm Dec 10, 2020, 9:12 PM

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just an idea

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Also i kno that it would be hard to code

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im saying eventually it could be a cool feature once the game is working normally

vague steeple Dec 10, 2020, 9:20 PM

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They could apply “herd stank” to carnivore packs in excess of pack limits, but have that herd stank apply debuffs to the pack, like increased hunger drain, disease that reduces and caps HP and Stamina. It could even induce “kennel cough” resulting in a reduction of stealth.

Only a small period of time in the herd stank would be required to trigger the debuffs, but would persist for some time after exposure...even if you no longer reside within the stank.

vague steeple Dec 10, 2020, 9:45 PM

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inland lagoon @cocoajin#9771 probably doesn't need additional mechanics. Weight+ raw works qu...

Perhaps if you are comparing similar dinos...but it gets messy when you have varying body forms engaging.

I think considering bite strength, tooth length(assuming a generic tooth form, though they could use one of a few tooth forms for each dino, for higher fidelity in the system), skin/armor thickness and armor resistance is simple enough...the idea has been applied by games for at least 20 years.

It’s no different than a first person shooter or combat game that models bullet energy and penetration. The tooth is the bullet, the bite force is the bullet velocity, the tooth type and size is akin to caliber and it all dictates how well it performs against armor. The calculations would be super simple. We aren’t considering impact angles, spalling and their affect on sub-systems. We don’t have to calculate each tooth separately, the bite is a single value based on the cumulative values for what that Dino would use as biting teeth in an attack....plus additives for compression forces for Crusher/Compression biters.

fallen lynx Dec 11, 2020, 9:35 AM

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Herbivores should always be faster or stronger was said wrong. Herbivores should always be stronger, or have a method of escape.

I do believe something like Camara should be the strongest thing in the game.

true ginkgo Dec 11, 2020, 10:11 AM

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Why does that apply to just herbis? All playables should have something they can do to either fight, flee, or evade other playables.

obtuse shuttle Dec 11, 2020, 11:29 AM

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Is tyring hearing people balance herbivores and carnivores instead of just balancing playables

vagrant inlet Dec 11, 2020, 12:14 PM

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^

marble pond Dec 11, 2020, 12:21 PM

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It's tiring to hear people ask for balance changes for creatures that aren't even in the game yet. Particularly with creatures like Magy, where everyone has an opinion but no one has played it, including QA and the developers lmfao
We should have a rule that any balance discussion revolving around creatures that aren't in the game belong strictly in #401470471750811669 or DMs, and nowhere else in this discord. With the exception of creatures that are going to be introduced very soon such as Deino and Ptera, as those are actually in QA right now.

true ginkgo Dec 11, 2020, 1:39 PM

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You can make educated guesses about any animals stats before it’s in game. For example both rex and austro are not yet in game, but I’m going to make a guess that rex will beat austro for damage. Banning discussion in playables not yet in game is ridiculous.

marble pond Dec 11, 2020, 2:09 PM

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Banning discussion in playables not yet in game is ridiculous.
General discussion? Sure.

Balance discussion? No, you cannot make educated guesses about an animal's specific stat values that would be remotely useful for any practical purposes. Surely you can agree that to make the claim, for instance, that a T-Rex ought to be able to kill a Triceratops in 3 hits instead of 5, would be ridiculous in the context of the current game where neither playable exists. And yet these sorts of claims are all I see regarding Magyarosaurus, when people claim that the animal is "defenseless" and will be sport-killed by every species including "Carno" and "Utah" and even other herbivores.

I submit to you that restricting balance discussion for playables that are not yet in the game to a more appropriate channel other than #401464048610312195 is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, so that our comms are not filled with endless pleas to remove a playable from the game that hasn't even been introduced yet. The people making these claims are not presenting any rational arguments that are based on in-game data, because no such in-game data exists, and therefore, no relevant data exists. So when we consider the sort of feedback discussions that would be productive, we can rule out any discussions where someone is arguing about specific values or even general traits for a creature that literally does not exist yet.

If people really want to speculate on such topics, they can take it to DMs or relevant channels.

stuck shoal Dec 11, 2020, 2:19 PM

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When people make wild estimations of a creature with no real information about it, I'm always reminded of the Hercules Beetle. Doesn't look like much, isn't the fastest or the smartest... but can carry 850 times its weight. Animals have a way of not following expectations. Discussing balance has always been fine, but vehemently championing one creature over another when there's very little about either is close to lunacy.

That being said. Lunatics seem to have fun, let them have their fun - it's not hurting anyone.

marble pond Dec 11, 2020, 2:26 PM

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Fair enough, I just can't help but feel like the feedback channels have enormous potential, and that they are held back by repetitive and unproductive discussions causing interference - certainly those of the "My dinosaur > Your dinosaur" category are an example. I feel if the feedback channels were regulated more stringently, some real gems would start to appear.

Perhaps my intuition is wrong, and the devs really do take the time to scrub through those channels, but if I was a developer I certainly wouldn't, in present circumstances.

stuck shoal Dec 11, 2020, 2:27 PM

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The Devs actually like reading. 🤷 We have no complaints from them... yet.

light aspen Dec 11, 2020, 9:46 PM

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@winter ether it does give you food normally, but you can't gain more than 20% with grazing

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As far as i know it takes 10 minutes for these 20% to drop, so you should graze every 8 minutes till you find a bush and go for your 100% hunger again

winter ether Dec 11, 2020, 9:51 PM

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the problem is while you graze you still lose food or are frozen on the current hunger you have

stark knoll Dec 11, 2020, 9:56 PM

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are you under 20% hunger when you graze?

winter ether Dec 11, 2020, 10:30 PM

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wait, so you only gain food while grazing under 20% hunger?

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well to me it sounded(when it got announced and explained) that grazing will give 20% of the actual bushes you eat

stark knoll Dec 11, 2020, 10:33 PM

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no, grazing will fill you up to 20% of your hunger

opaque yoke Dec 11, 2020, 10:33 PM

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If you're past the intestine you get no food from it

winter ether Dec 11, 2020, 10:33 PM

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kk sry then

tough venture Dec 12, 2020, 6:25 AM

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I'm going to assume baby stegos are already talked about a dozen times in #balance-feedback xD

quasi grove Dec 12, 2020, 6:40 AM

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Extra point i wanted to add regarding Carno V Stego
#401464048610312195 message

marble pond Dec 12, 2020, 7:06 AM

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quasi grove Extra point i wanted to add regarding Carno V Stego https://discord.com/channels...

Yours is the first suggestion that has actually convinced me that a Carno downsize is necessary.
However I don't think Teno needs a downsize really - If you downsize Teno, you would be opening a whole can of worms because currently they are well balanced around utah.

quasi grove Dec 12, 2020, 7:07 AM

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well its not a downsize that will effect stats, its just visual appearance

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other than in engine speed needing to be adjusted so tenontos run speed is kept the same

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actually the only problem that might occur is attack range

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but with carnos downsize that might not be a problem

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especially since tenontos downsize is nowhere near as massive as carnos

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regarding downsize recommendations this chart suffices

📎 ntc3AzB.png

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between a 10-20% decrease to both's size would suffice

marble pond Dec 12, 2020, 7:25 AM

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10% for teno maybe, 20% for carno, carno needs its stats other than max speed readjusted according to its downsizing (Not sure where we got the idea that the two aren't related - they may as well be, if weight is a factor to damage), and stam halfed like you said

And globally, animals that attack repeatedly should use either more stamina in doing so, or should do less damage for subsequent blows. Right now, if you're a carno all you have to do to kill another carno of your same size, or kill a tenonto, is use your charge to stun it, and then spam bite 3-4 times, and suddenly you have a massive advantage and it's impossible for the other creature to close the gap. Carno's combo attack is effectively a death sentence in a 1v1. Very unreasonable against anything in its weight class, considering it's meant to hunt small game like Dryo and juvenile dinos.

true ginkgo Dec 12, 2020, 12:32 PM

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Might be difficult to animate the smaller tenoto to keep the same speed.

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maybe it would be possable

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I defo want juvie tenotos to be faster than they currently are though

inland lagoon Dec 12, 2020, 1:23 PM

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quasi grove regarding downsize recommendations this chart suffices

Is that some official info. Seems that sauropod is to small.

true ginkgo Dec 12, 2020, 1:30 PM

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inland lagoon Is that some official info. Seems that sauropod is to small.

That is magy. Magy is tiny.

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Irl it only weighed about a ton.

vague steeple Dec 12, 2020, 5:43 PM

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I don’t think bleed needs to be more lethal. I suspect it will be appropriately lethal vs significantly smaller opponents, but for comparable and larger opponents, its purpose need not be about lethality.

The short-comings of bleed isn’t that it’s not reliable in causing death. It’s short-coming is in its lack of performance debuffs once you’ve bleed significantly.

Bleed based performance debuffs means the potential for battles of physical attrition. It means degraded ability to disengage. Degraded performance while recovering.

stoic vortex Dec 12, 2020, 6:09 PM

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I agree Coco. Plus not all dinos are meant to be breeders anyways. Some are, some rely on bite force. Don't expect bite force dinos (carno for example) to have dramatic results so quickly via bleed, especially against a tank such as a stego etc. Of course the stego will be able to walk it off. Carno is a small game hunter. Small game killers and bite force dinos dont need to have exceptional bleed otherwise they'll be too op

tidal jacinth Dec 12, 2020, 6:32 PM

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Imo the bleed system is fine how it is for the dinosaurs that are in the game right now, the only thing I would change is the whole mud rolling mechanic. It's dumb how everyone is glued to the edge of the water half the time because mud is your savior

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Mud should help a little but I don't think it should completely cure your bleed

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 6:51 PM

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Bite force dinos? Carno was never one.

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 6:52 PM

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vague steeple I don’t think bleed needs to be more lethal. I suspect it will be appropriately...

Can you describe what kind of debuff are you talking about?

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I don't remember bleed causing any debuff, besides that you will leave a blood trail, and you need to watch over your blood pool (wich isn't a thing, since it's undertuned as hell)

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also, Carno was never ever a raw biteforce Carnivore but a small game hunter. Carno was just an example, blood pool taking forever to ran out is a general issue.

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Also if Carno is a small game hunter, why does it need 350N?

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Carno is rather a mix of small game hunter and mid tier hunter. None of the statements are defeating my statement. Blood currently doesn't cause anything, only leave a blood trail and you need to watch over your blood pool (please, tell me if I'm wrong).

hollow canyon Dec 12, 2020, 6:57 PM

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Bleed decreases health regeneration and stamina regeneration. In general it should absolutely be more lethal as there are animals in the game that are bleeders.

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350N isn't much in Evrima either

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 6:59 PM

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Oh, so I was wrong about the debuff, but I think it even tells more about how undertuned it is, as I didn't noticed neither of them, but hopefully they will add some kind of debuff Icon's later. So that's my bad. 350N isn't much in general, just brought it up since people keep referring to Carno as only being a small game hunter, wich isn't true with a biteforce of 350 imo.

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Even if I need to step down about Carno's bite nerf, I won't step back about the bleed

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It's nothing. It's literally nothing

hollow canyon Dec 12, 2020, 7:02 PM

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350N sounds like a small game hunter to me. Utah has 1k HP, I think it's about correct that Carno should 3shot it. As for bleed - 100% agreed it's borderline worthless and more of a nuisance than anything else.

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:03 PM

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Oh wait, I forget about weight not counting in combat anymore. I was about to say that's only 350N to the same weighted dinosaur, My bad then.

tidal jacinth Dec 12, 2020, 7:04 PM

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Thing is there aren't any actual bleeders in the game yet, so I feel like the bleed with the current roster is fine

hollow canyon Dec 12, 2020, 7:04 PM

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It is fine-ish with the current roster, in the long run I don't think it's acceptable though.

tidal jacinth Dec 12, 2020, 7:06 PM

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To me it's just the mud that needs changing

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:09 PM

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Also yeah, players should have other options not just mudwallowing, you don't even need to track your prey, it will go near to the water to wallow.

vagrant inlet Dec 12, 2020, 7:12 PM

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Thing is I don’t remember Carno being a bled based dino either

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:16 PM

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Depends what are you talking about. In legacy, it's a mixed. okay-ish biteforce with decent bleed damage, it was rather a bleeder than a raw dmg output ever.

stoic vortex Dec 12, 2020, 7:30 PM

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In legacy carnos did barely any bleed, it mostly relied on bite force and getting hits in rather than hitting and waiting like bleeders such as dilo, allo, giga etc. However, this little bite force was mostly geared towards small game. Its speed supports this. Sure it can take mid tier prey in a large group but its intended niche is small game. For small game the amount of bite force it has is enough, bleed isn't even needed. Carno will kill a hypsi easily abd it wouldn't make sense for a carno to ve forced to track it down etc. So carno doesn't need to have devastating effects via bleed; it was never meant to

I suppose we'll accurately see how bleed is intended to work once the playable roster ia more developed and we have one or two bleeders in. For now it's too soon to judge in my opinion sinxe both carnis in the game aren't bleeders. Bleed may seem useless now but perhaps in the future it will be more devastating etc

As for the mud wallowing tjing mentioned here... Perhaps adding random mud pits beyond the water sources could help?

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:34 PM

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I remember carno being a decent bleeder, It did decent bleed with the weight system being a thing. It definitely didn't relied on raw dmg lol xD

stoic vortex Dec 12, 2020, 7:37 PM

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I remember more so bite force, but I guess it depends on what the carno was attacking? Carno bleed was bad for utahs, gallis, dryos... But anythint bigger (including maias) could walk off the bleed, forcing carnos to kill via bite force

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:38 PM

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You just needed to stack bleed, but yeah. The more heavy the creature was, the less bleed/raw biteforce you did. Carno was more of a bleeder with stacking bleeds and letting the dinos wear themselfs down.

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Carno weight/Prey weight x bleed amount = bleed dmg inflict on the said prey.

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Same with Raw dmg.

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You couldn't kill bigger things with Raw dmg, as it was also reduced by weight

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Carno stacked bleed against bigger/same tier prey and killed of smalls with biteforce.

stoic vortex Dec 12, 2020, 7:41 PM

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Ah, I see what yoy mean. In my opinion bleed stacking doesn't necessarily make a dino a bleeder, as that would make anything coubt as a bleeder if it got enough hits in. By bleeder i mostly mean dinos that coukd inflict tons of bleed within a couple bites, then mostly stand back until the target bleeds out

Though I do agree that with the weight system in legacy this was the way to go for larger game, but in my opinion it still doesn't make a dino coubt as a bleeder

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:42 PM

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But then what does it make it as not bleeder? as it didn't have strong biteforce at all in legacy.

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it was mediocre at best

stoic vortex Dec 12, 2020, 7:42 PM

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The only dino in evrima that should do tona of bleed rn is stego. I still think we're too early in the roster to accurately judge bleed effects

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It's not a bleeder simply because it wasnt intended to be, it doesn't do a lot of bleed damage per bite

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:45 PM

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Well, if we don't care about the current state of the game, sure. But you can judge the current situation by playing with the current roster, bleed can be ignored. It's effect is undertuned to hell currently.

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I don't want to wait for Giganoto, to re-balance the bleed

stoic vortex Dec 12, 2020, 7:45 PM

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But anyways I'm willing to agree to disagree on this, your suggestion wasn't a bad one but I just think it's too soon to judge

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 7:46 PM

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I also understand what you're saying, and it's not dumb. I just disagree with the wait on it.

vague steeple Dec 12, 2020, 8:28 PM

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When it comes to bleed debuffs, I think we need to additional affects to performance. Bleed status should impact sprint speed and duration. For instance, having your blood meter at 50% might result in a 75% cap on sprint speed and duration(~1.3x stamina consumption). Below 33% blood meter, you sprint speed is capped at 66%, your stamina consumption increased by ~1.5x and your attacks are debuffed to 75%.

This way, huge bleed wounds aren’t pointless...you can’t just sprint off at 100% effectiveness in order to break contact and extend away to find a safe place to wallow. Bleed wounds would actually impact your ability to stand your ground and fight once you’ve accumulated significant amount of blood lose.

Lastly, recovery of blood lose could be decreased in general, making the recovery from significant blood lose, while under its debuffs, a meaningful struggle. We’d finally have scenarios where a herd could truly have amongst its ranks, the weak and infirmed...where there is a real choice that must be made by the herd to stay and defend its herd mate through its recovery or move on for the betterment of the group.

This would really benefit diversity in target choice amongst AI groups/herds. Where even a formidable AI could be weakened by incurring significant injury and blood loss, forcing it to be separated from its AI herd...requiring it defend itself in a diminished state.

alpine plover Dec 12, 2020, 8:46 PM

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@wispy valley put on that suggestion that pounce should be bleed based and not damage based

vague steeple Dec 12, 2020, 9:40 PM

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Doesn’t taking away pounce’s damage ignore the fact that the Utah bites and scratches while on the target? It also ignores how applying body weight to its application of its claws/talon would likely make those attacks significantly more effective and deeper penetrating than they normally would through normal slashing claw attacks.

cloud urchin Dec 12, 2020, 10:25 PM

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Oh my god, I finally got past the Word Count Filter.

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Some things I wanted to add to Grazing Revisited.

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The nodes do nothing to change the desire for specific diets. Bushes still exist in this system to give you greater amounts of food. Plus, they will only become that much more important to find in The Isle's future for diets, perks, and the elder system. Seeing as bushes will get such an upgrade, I would rather treat them as a coveted treasure you seek out for key milestones in your progression. With that said, you can pass on the responsibility of feeding herbivores to grazing with greater effect in the ways I suggested. You could even have certain interactions where herbivores will risk starvation just to find certain bushes in areas that are barren-hell, you might have niche herbivores that can live in barren areas for this fact alone.

wispy valley Dec 13, 2020, 12:40 AM

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vague steeple Doesn’t taking away pounce’s damage ignore the fact that the Utah bites and scra...

I suggested pounce does minimal damage but mostly drain stamina and provokes blood loss.

lean lotus Dec 13, 2020, 2:13 PM

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Preety sure a visual change isn't balance.

sterile perch Dec 13, 2020, 2:15 PM

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Just making sure I cover all bases

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Thanks for the tip

alpine plover Dec 13, 2020, 7:14 PM

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Utah should be able to pounce from subadult(for reduced damage)

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shouldn't it?

vague steeple Dec 13, 2020, 7:27 PM

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I’m not against Utah pouncing from spawn in. But until it has adult weight, it’s effectiveness should be limited to smaller or comparably sized targets.

Without adult weight, it just lacks the penetration for its claws to viably damage larger targets or produce much of a stamina drain.

But vs small/smaller targets, even if it didn’t provide bonus damage, it would at least provide it a means to stay on target, minimize escape and give it the time it needs to deliver its damage on target.

alpine plover Dec 13, 2020, 7:27 PM

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yea

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like have baby utah's do about 10% of total damage

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subadults do around 50%

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and adults do the complete damage

vague steeple Dec 13, 2020, 7:33 PM

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50% is too much. It’s bite isn’t very strong to begin with and it’s claws are useless without its weight to help drive them in...prior to adult, pounce should be more or less just whatever damage the Utah can muster from biting. Pounce would only provide a platform to deliver those bites.

alpine plover Dec 13, 2020, 9:03 PM

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K so about 25% damage then

inland lagoon Dec 13, 2020, 9:22 PM

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Think devs made pounce only for adult utah, because its problematic to make it for every stage. Its better to have it starting from subs, but logicaly its ok that youngs could not pounce. Only adult birds usually can fly, subs only can try, so the same is for utahs.

alpine plover Dec 13, 2020, 9:25 PM

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Yea

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I guess

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But subadult Utah should at least be able to cling to an animal

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Because otherwise they’re at the mercy of all the other creatures

vague steeple Dec 13, 2020, 10:15 PM

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I’d be ok with 25%...

marble pond Dec 13, 2020, 10:32 PM

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iframes are not appropriate for this genre of game. If we were indeed playing Smash, then it would be different. I'm not unfamiliar with iframes as a mechanic, but it's not appropriate in the context of a survival game.

dodge should be effective because it takes you away from their attack. not because it makes you invincible for a bit.
Exactly this. If I right click to attempt to dodge, but have not phyically moved myself out of range of an incoming attack, then I have not dodged and that attack should do whatever it normally does when it connects with me.

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But perhaps you aren't arguing for literal iframes, you're just using that term to describe specific reactions to other abilities like utah's pounce. So my question to you, if you're a proponent of adding "iframes" to dryo's dodge, is this:

What should happen if a dryo is in range of a stego's tail swing, fails to physically move out of the way, but still has "iframes" during the collision?

And if your answer is "The stego's tail should clip through the dryo like a ghost, have no effect, and deal no damage," then you're thinking out of genre.

If your answer is anything else like "The iframes shouldn't apply to a stegosaurus attack" or "My dryo should visually appear as though he hopped over/under the swing" or something else like that, then we're not discussing the same feature. Also, you're not using the term iframes correctly.

golden coral Dec 13, 2020, 11:16 PM

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@alpine plover Just remove the slow down/momentum loss on dodge end, allow the dryo to hit the ground running as it were. Might not need a speed boost as much then.

ivory anchor Dec 13, 2020, 11:16 PM

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I think people want iframes for dryo because iframes are already in the game

alpine plover Dec 13, 2020, 11:16 PM

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Because dodge already had iframes

alpine plover Dec 13, 2020, 11:17 PM

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golden coral <@456226577798135808> Just remove the slow down/momentum loss on dodge end, allo...

I think it is better to have a speedboost.

A speedboost would make Dodge not useless lol

golden coral Dec 13, 2020, 11:17 PM

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Fix the momentum loss, adjust values for distance as well as speed of the dodge/windup, and the whole omnidirectional + distance by charge like hypsi jump. Start there, see how that goes.

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I don't know, I think it's the momentum loss that's a big issue, since you're basically trading a little jump for "hey let me start running again". Without that, it's a clean dodge into more running, so you can use it while getting out of there/being chased easier.

wispy valley Dec 14, 2020, 1:16 AM

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Someone tell me why shrinking Tenonto and Carno is a bad idea?

toxic crypt Dec 14, 2020, 2:27 AM

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it's not

grave veldt Dec 14, 2020, 3:33 AM

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its not

cloud urchin Dec 14, 2020, 4:49 AM

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@alpine plover what if Dryo could make several consecutive dodges to put distance between it and its pursuers before running.

alpine plover Dec 14, 2020, 4:49 AM

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it already can

quasi grove Dec 14, 2020, 6:10 AM

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p sure most people X'ed your feedback because of the abhorrently small 1.35 ton carno you suggest

true ginkgo Dec 14, 2020, 8:38 AM

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Yep 1.35 tons is well below carno max.

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But moving carno to its real max size is a good idea. It doesn't need to be allo sized.

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I worry that the overdone sizes will go all the way up the food chain. Allo being even bigger to compensate for carno being the size of regular allo, then rex/giga being stupidly oversized beyond that to ensure that allo isn't matching them for size.

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Tenoto too, as at least 800kg real sized tenoto could maybe hide in the jungles a bit better. Though honestly making that thing function in a convincing way would be a challenge.

south wyvern Dec 14, 2020, 2:53 PM

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but... the isle isn't realistic. they don't necessarily follow the real dinosaur size. there are other things to focus on to make this game better. :/

grave veldt Dec 14, 2020, 4:51 PM

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carno rly does need a size nerf as the size of carno sets a precedent for all other dinos added

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we dont want all the dinos to be constantly oversized

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because of how big carno is when allo is added they will need to make carno its actual max size otherwise they will upscale allo and then other things will get upscaled and yea

opaque yoke Dec 14, 2020, 5:12 PM

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I'm cool with the oversized carno and I really like tento the way it is, I'd honestly prefer some dinos to be oversized. Its a game they're clearly not going for full realism, I don't understand why it matters as long as its balanced. Stego and anky were oversized to combat rex back in the day since they were too slow to outrun it.
I don't know the reason for oversized carno, but making tento any smaller would make it pretty useless against utahs imo.

grave veldt Dec 14, 2020, 5:34 PM

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devs already know carno and teno are oversized, so its highly likely they will get smaller so thats why idc too much about it

vague steeple Dec 14, 2020, 6:26 PM

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Carno and Tenonto are big intentionally. The devs already said they were looking to use the largest documented specimens for many, if not all dinos. It’s also possible Carno and Tenonto are oversized in order to make their animations match their sprint speeds. Make them standard sized and all of a sudden their legs move so fast they look like quail...or worse, they look like they skating around the map.

hollow canyon Dec 14, 2020, 11:23 PM

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Not really, you can increase the animation speed by 30% from the base value without making it look bad. Also in that case they should've been given longer strides. This isn't an excuse to oversize those animals. As for the idea that they're representative of the largest documented specimens - that's the point that everyone is raising: they are not. They are quite significantly larger than the largest(and only) Carnotaurus specimen and larger than the largest Tenonto specimen.

vague steeple Dec 14, 2020, 11:28 PM

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A 30% increase in cadence, used on shorter legs would be very obvious...huge in fact. That’s like saying you can’t tell the difference between a standard car that redlines at 6,000 RPM and a high performance car at 8,000 RPM. You’d hear it in the footfalls, Carno would sound like a cartoon. You’d see it in the cadence...it’ll look like the Carno has no weight.

obtuse shuttle Dec 14, 2020, 11:31 PM

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no, even bryan himself said that increasing animation speed by 30% is totally possible and fine, hell, currently both tenon and utah has their animations upseeded

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also, as aken said, they could just, as many people already asked, make carno do longer strides

vague steeple Dec 14, 2020, 11:35 PM

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I’d have to see, still not convinced...

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 12:34 AM

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So if Tenonto already has sped up animations, do you not think that having to speed them up more will be slightly problematic?

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 12:55 AM

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Carno and teno themselves don’t cause issues with their upscaled sizes, but I’m just worried it’s going to snowball up the food chain. Then we’ll end up with realistic stego somehow having to fight cama sized rex.

vague steeple Dec 15, 2020, 5:39 AM

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I thought the current Stego was intentionally modeled as a smaller specimen...it wasn’t intended to compete with Rex...instead it was set to be more of a medium carnivore antagonist. Is there another, larger variant Stego planned?

Plus scale doesn’t necessarily equate to stats do they? Big Carno isn’t biting harder or possessing more HP because of its scale is it?

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 7:31 AM

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📎 image0.png

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I mean that’s literally what the devs were saying with stegosaurus

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It wouldn’t be based on the 9 meter specimens for whatever reason or another

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In all likelihood it’s probably a case of this discord thinking that Tenonto and Carno and oversized while in reality stegosaurus is just undersized along with utah being made smaller

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📎 image0.png

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Way back in legacy, like over 2 years ago at this point

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People were begging for Acro to be upsized because it was too small compared to the other apexes

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In reality it was correctly sized and the apexes were all about 110% of their actual size for “reasons” i suppose

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And for the longest time some of the more “reliable” people in this discord were making innacurate size charts based on the squares on test level being assumed to represent 1 meter when in reality they larger. I don’t know the exact size

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Point is, there is a very high likelihood that the people complaining about carno and tenonto don’t actually know what their talking about.

We don’t even have humans in-game yet or even a reliable method of scaling besides the in-game size charts, which even then, until humans are actually in-game we can’t be sure are 100% reliable, and some people have somehow figured out the exact size of in-game animals?

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 7:41 AM

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This is why we need an official size chart eventually

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 7:42 AM

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Oh yeah

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Definitely

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The thought of this type of criticism being present throughout the remainder of the games development is a fucking nightmare.

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 7:44 AM

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When humans are out (or just use the default mannequin), it would be cool if they at least place some of the models on a flat surface (hell, even just the test level) for comparison. Would definitely help us to get a proper and accurate sense of scale

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 7:44 AM

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Actually having a size chart comparing in-game animals with each other rather than with a human model would be such a dream

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 7:44 AM

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Agreed

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 7:46 AM

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Would finally put an end to the mindless bitching

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 7:47 AM

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Like, remember when Filipe shared that screenshot of the stego in-between teno and utah, and how teno was on a slope making stego look a lot smaller?

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 7:48 AM

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No I don’t

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Have you got a screenshot of it?

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 7:48 AM

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Let me try to find it

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Foliage is also slightly covering the stego's feet

📎 unknown.png

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 7:56 AM

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I mean that doesn’t look too different from in-game anyway

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It’s quite baffling how the devs have said stego will be smaller, the in-game size chart shows a smaller stego. And yet people have decided that Carno and Tenonto are oversized instead of Stego being small. I’m not even going to say undersized because that’s clearly the intended size for it

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 7:58 AM

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Oh yeah, I'm not saying that they changed the size. That screen was took before playable stego was put on the roadmap and many people after seeing that screen automatically thought that stego is a lot smaller

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 7:59 AM

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I mean the devs have said that stego is going to be smaller

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 8:03 AM

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Also we did have a scale comparison before, though I don't remember where this is from. Iirc this was more to show the difference between the in-game sizes and rl sizes of the animals, but still

📎 Screenshot_20201015-0256352.png

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 8:58 AM

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According to nova the stego is it's maximum irl size. Just teno and carno look too big next to it as they're both oversized.

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 8:59 AM

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vague steeple I thought the current Stego was intentionally modeled as a smaller specimen...it...

The trouble then is you have a super slow walking billboard unable to flee or hide, but also unable to fight.

What is a stego meant to do when a rex or giga shows up?

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 9:36 AM

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Thagomizer

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 9:41 AM

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It doesn't matter what the weapon is if it doesn't have the stats to stop rex casually strolling up to it and spamming left click while just ez tanking any damage in return.

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 9:43 AM

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Are you still playing legacy because combat doesn’t really work like that anymore

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“Oh boy time to facetank this stego” proceeds to get stabbed in the brain by a pair of thagomizers

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 9:51 AM

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Honestly, this is where a size comp would come in handy. One problem with the stego is that it hits very low, thus being able to hit the rex's legs, but its head would most likely be out of reach. So stego either does lethal bleed damage or it gets a crouch ability to raise its tail to be able to hit rex's head

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 9:52 AM

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When a Rex bites it lowers it’s head so height isn’t an issue

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 9:53 AM

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When it bites. We don't know how fast the rex's bite animation is and that's assuming that it's biting the stego's side. How fast is the stego's jab again?

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 9:56 AM

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Pretty fast

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I mean unless the t rex is biting from the front you’ll be able to hit it with the thag.
At that point an upsize isn’t going to matter snyway because headshot=death no matter what

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 9:59 AM

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It is rather difficult to talk about balance between two creatures when one is still far from being released, so we can only really go off of assumptions. I still think that stego should get a more defensive standing position no matter how big it is

vagrant inlet Dec 15, 2020, 10:02 AM

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I mean at that point why are people asking for balance changes for stego to begin with? I’m not the person who even needs to hear that it’s the people going “this animals gonna be completely fucked because I can see the future”

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 10:03 AM

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Stego needs a trotting (not sprinting) tail flick imo. In order to be able to walk away from larger carnis flicking its tail.

Being standing attack only forces it to fight.

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It should be trying to make life too tough for them to attack while attempting to disengage.

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Also the convo started due to the potential for rex to get upsized due to carno being upsized. In which case stego couldn't headshot the rex as it's too high.

finite solstice Dec 15, 2020, 10:05 AM

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Basing future balance off of assumptions is not great, yeah. Unless we are just discussing possibilities and not a hard "It's going to be bad." I am curious to see how stego will fair against apexes, though I don't think it's wrong to make up scenarios in our heads and give the devs ideas

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 10:11 AM

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It's difficult to tell where things will sit later on, but it's easy to see why people are thinking stego will do real badly later on vs apexes, when a few utahs can kill a stego in seconds in the current matchup.

alpine plover Dec 15, 2020, 11:17 AM

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All I can say is herds/pack. You can't make every 1v1 viable, you just simply can't, and I agree that each dinosaur species should be viable by it's own, but there is a situation where that just can't happen. A Rex in 1v1 will probably will be able to kill a solo Stego, but if has a herd/mates, then I assume the Rex won't risk it's life, as getting thagomized from 3 way doesn't really sound good even for a Rex. There is simply some situations where the "strength in numbers" rule needs to be applied.

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 1:12 PM

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Nothing should be dependent on playing in a group to survive, as that guarantees you will not find groups of them. People would much rather play the animal which can function well solo. Hell there might not even be any other payers of that species on the entire server. You see it in legacy with para, where it often ends up with 2 paras vs 12 allos.

Imo yes rex should win by far if the stego goes on the offence, as that delivers the stegos head to the rexes mouth. But if the stego walks away keeping the tail between itself and the rex while trying to disengage, it should be able to inflict enough damage/bleed to prevent the rex being able to follow. As that would be stego tail vs rexes head.

wary otter Dec 15, 2020, 1:14 PM

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Exactly, you wont always find people, that shouldnt be the reason you die

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 1:16 PM

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It's one reason why I want stego to be able to flick its tail in a narrow rear arc while trotting/walking. As it encourages the stego to attempt to gradually leave the area while keeping its tail between it and the carni.

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And it can't be used offensively to run things down and kill them.

alpine plover Dec 15, 2020, 2:01 PM

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Still not defeating my point. You can't make proper balance where it will be always fair in 1v1. Stego(in my opinion) should not fear anything as solo, besides apexes or big packs. It's a multiplayer game, relying on other players should appear in some situations. Doesn't make it not viable. Utah can't hunt stego/carno unless they have a pack, still viable. Carno is also faster than Utah, still viable. Stego should be able to fuck up most of it's natural predators as solo without much trouble, but if I need to survive against a supposed to be rare species with a group, oh well xD

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Also you are not forced to group up either, you have many ways to avoid a big fucker that can be fatal to you as solo.

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 2:14 PM

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alpine plover Still not defeating my point. You can't make proper balance where it will be alw...

Utah can simply disengage from a stego, and isn't forced to fight solo. Carno may be a bit faster but utah is so agile it can simply duke it once and vanish.

If a stego sees a rex and the stego is balanced with mid tier level stats, it's just dead. Nothing it can do. May as well tab out and browse discord while you wait to die and tab back in on the respawn screen.

Stego should have the stats to be able to disengage with rex/giga and force them to keep their distance if it plays well, making them eventually give in and look for other prey. I agree that if the stego tries to charge and attack an apex, the stego should die near 100% of the time. But it should have the tools needed to escape if the player is competent.

alpine plover Dec 15, 2020, 2:16 PM

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Oh wait, we talking about stats now? I didn't said it should be shitstomped. I even mentioned that is should fear barely anything even as a solo.

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 2:17 PM

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I was going on the mid tier stats as someone further up said it should be more equal to mid tiers than apexes.

alpine plover Dec 15, 2020, 2:19 PM

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Oh no, absolutely not. If anything Stego should be a pseudo apex minimum.

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 2:22 PM

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I think offensively it needs to really suck. Same with anky. No charging at rexes and gigas and expecting to win.

But defensively they should be able to make things essentially too difficult and risky to be worth it, all the while attempting to disengage and move away. Stego putting on too much damage and bleed, and anky breaking bones. Both of which forces the rex/giga to give in and move away.

grave veldt Dec 15, 2020, 2:41 PM

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well sizes r arent finallized. I just hope sizes r changed so other dinos dont get massive for no reason

minor fjord Dec 15, 2020, 2:56 PM

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I feel like carno is getting too little food value while eating, feel like it'd be better if he would eat bigger chunks cuz its taking almost forever now

vague steeple Dec 15, 2020, 6:52 PM

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true ginkgo The trouble then is you have a super slow walking billboard unable to flee or hi...

Stego isn’t intend to balance well vs Rex(at least not an adult Rex) 1 vs 1...It’s not an Apex herbivore. For now, the pokey apex herbivore is Trike...though there seems to be possibility for a larger Stego variant to be added, it would be separate from our smaller, current medium sized variant.

Now, I do agree that the Stego needs to be able to aim its tail in the vertical, but I’m not sure how well it could elevate its tail for a strike.

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 6:59 PM

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vague steeple Stego isn’t intend to balance well vs Rex(at least not an adult Rex) 1 vs 1...It...

According to Nova we have the max size variant, it's just the weight that's off which doesn't effect combat stats. And tenoto/carno are both a lot longer/taller than that they were irl which then makes stego look small.

The issue is stego can't hide (it's literally designed as a walking billboard). It can't flee either and will probably end up as one of the slowest animals in the game. So what does it do if it encounters a rex/giga and can't deter it well enough to make it leave? What should the stego player do in a situation where they're ambling along and a rex walks over the ridge? Just tab out to talk on discord for a bit and return to the respawn screen, as their death is 100% guaranteed no matter what they attempt?

orchid depot Dec 15, 2020, 7:21 PM

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stenops isn't max size variant

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it was abt 25 feet long, S. ungulatus was longer, and i'm pretty sure it was heavier too

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stenops was on the small side

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 7:31 PM

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Stenops got merged with ungulatus, so the big stego is now called stenops.

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Old ungulatus got to about 5-7 tons depending on the estimate. And I think stenops on nova's chart is about 6 tons which puts it in the rough max size range of what used to be ungulatus

orchid depot Dec 15, 2020, 7:42 PM

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oh I see

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this is new news to me

true ginkgo Dec 15, 2020, 7:42 PM

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It was to me as well!

wispy valley Dec 15, 2020, 11:33 PM

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Am sad. Nobody reacted to my dragging/grabbing suggestion.

crystal wharf Dec 16, 2020, 12:33 AM

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@warm quail post in here and delete that, this is where you talk about the suggestions

eager otter Dec 16, 2020, 12:46 AM

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@warm quail I'm mostly fine with pounce rn, I just think it deals damage way too fast. I don't have a problem with how good pouncing is as a hunting strategy, but how easy it is to pull off. Right now you can just bumrush what's supposed to be a psudeo-apex herbivore and kill it and under 30 seconds if you get enough pounces in, without much strategy or planning besides "don't get hit". Ideally, it should be a way to wear down big targets, not tear through them instantly like a living blender.

I can't say with 100% certainty if pounce is too good or not because the bucking mechanic isn't fixed, only time will tell for that. If pounced animals can actually defend themselves in the future (unlike now), then I think a high level of lethality on pounce may be warranted. We'll just have to wait and see

warm quail Dec 16, 2020, 12:50 AM

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I get your opinion, it should be debuffed

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 1:21 PM

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I still think pounce is way too easy to actually pull off even when the hugs r fixed. Like a Utah can pounce a carnos head which rly doesn’t make sense honestly

meager ice Dec 16, 2020, 3:36 PM

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I think with locational ‘no pounce’ zones and bucking pouncing will be acceptable

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 3:48 PM

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Yea

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Like a pounce on stegos tail should = instant death

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And they should remove the 1 second cc when a raptor pounces something

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Pls devs pls remove that weird raptor cc

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:03 PM

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yea i think no pounce zones with the utah not having iframes and bucking actually working would be pretty good

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:08 PM

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Yea

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Then Utah doesn’t need to be nerfed into the ground

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And just needs skill and a couple bug fixes

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:08 PM

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iframes and bucking not working is the worst issues rn

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although i still think having pounce work more towards bleed then dmg would make it more strategic then press button and die

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:09 PM

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Ye but if there are enough maneuvers to get the Utah of you

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Then it would warrant this level of destruction

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So I’d say add a roll, no pounce zone

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Terrain as obstacles

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So on so forth

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As many obstacles as possiblr

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To make it easier on the devs

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Well I say that, but really I just don’t want Utah to be nerfed

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:11 PM

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i dont want it to be nerfed but pounce being focused more on bleed then dmg helps the battle become more strategic overall

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:11 PM

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Bleed as a whole needs to be fixed

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:11 PM

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bleed kinda lackluster tbh

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atm

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:12 PM

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I think it should be more lethal

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:12 PM

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same

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:12 PM

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Especially for stegos

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They need to have the ability to inflict deadly bleed

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:12 PM

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actually stegos should give tons of bleed

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:12 PM

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Thats why I meant

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Although my wording was poor my

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:12 PM

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one tail spike is longer then carnos width

dawn sand Dec 16, 2020, 6:12 PM

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Is there variability in bleed affliction? Or does everything apply the same level of bleed?

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:13 PM

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Like it should be lethal for a mid tier carnivore to be hit by a full adult stego

orchid depot Dec 16, 2020, 6:13 PM

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insta kill if struck anwhere but the tail TI_Troll

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stego impale should be a one shot

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:13 PM

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Well full lethal everywhere apart from back half

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:13 PM

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one shot is fine for carno as carno is supposed to be brittle not heavy

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:13 PM

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It should inflict lethal bleed on anything mid tier apart for the back half

orchid depot Dec 16, 2020, 6:13 PM

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OH THAT'S HOW I LIVED

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:14 PM

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So that it’s not just an instant u r red button

orchid depot Dec 16, 2020, 6:14 PM

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i somehow survived being hit

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:14 PM

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*ded

orchid depot Dec 16, 2020, 6:14 PM

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but now i know

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i was probably hit on the tail

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:14 PM

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Is locational damage in the game yet?

orchid depot Dec 16, 2020, 6:14 PM

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yes

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:14 PM

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stego should do a lot more bleed

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way more then it does now

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stego should take like half of the carnos bleed meter if not more

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:15 PM

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It should to lethal bleed on anything mid tier when hit anywhere except legs-tail

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:15 PM

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ye

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:16 PM

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So that the carnivores can at least go back and clot their wounds

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And it should be a 4-5 shot kill on apexes

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With it inflicting lethal bleed in 2-3 shots on apexes

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:17 PM

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yea a 4-5 shot sounds good

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2 in the head

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:17 PM

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Yes

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And 1 to the neck

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For lethal bleed at least

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:18 PM

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we actually ye it should just be 1 to the head area with lethal bleed

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but 2 actual stego hits to kill it

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:18 PM

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Yea

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And then the stego becomes the proper apex herbivore it should be

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 6:18 PM

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also stego is max size in game so idk y its only 4.5 tons it should be 5.5 or 6 tons

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i mean weight doesnt matter too much so its fine

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but just kinda weird size is max but weight isnt

alpine plover Dec 16, 2020, 6:20 PM

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Yea

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I think stego shouldn’t be this mid tier trash we currently have

wispy valley Dec 16, 2020, 7:16 PM

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grave veldt i mean weight doesnt matter too much so its fine

It will for trample damage and corpse food yield.

grave veldt Dec 16, 2020, 7:20 PM

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Oh ye right

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Stego should get its proper weight then

warm mesa Dec 17, 2020, 8:42 AM

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Yes, 100% yes to that utah invincibility frame thing. Stego is nearly useless after a utah pounces on it and falls off, since after the first tail swipe which is when the utah is on ground, its invincible. Yet when second one comes, utah is up and running away.

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 7:18 PM

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how would making stego bleed out any dinosaur 'balance it out'?

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I get that it would make sense, those thagomizers are REALLY long, but gameplay wise it would make stego unkillable

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utah pounce is the only thing that can reliable kill it rn, and even then, they are definitely nerfing pounce in the future so stego is already pretty much invincible.

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carno isn't fine, either

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it skids a few millimeters before it can turn and get up to top speed within 6 seconds
it has no weaknesses in terms of speed

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even though, in the roadmap, it says something along the lines of "what it lacks in turning capabilities, it makes up for with brute speed and strength"

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it doesn't lack anything in turning capabilities TI_Facepalm

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 7:33 PM

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Yes

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Contradictory gameplay

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 7:57 PM

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lethal bleed

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It could happen in a while

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I don't mean a 2 minutes later you die type of bleed

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like maybe 15-20 minutes

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b4 you bleed to death

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and if you continuously run 14-10 minutes before blledout

limber elbow Dec 17, 2020, 8:43 PM

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orchid depot I get that it would make sense, those thagomizers are REALLY long, but gameplay ...

There’s a lot of ways to kill a stego like baiting out it’s attack and getting it while it’s in animation or using a pack mate to distract it while you go in for a bite. On top of that healing isn’t fast as stego. The mobility of a stego is extremely lacking compared to every other Dino in game so adding bleed should not be a problem and would encourage actual skill and depth to the game. It a joke that a carno can get hit and then run a few miles away and pack the wound and not worry about anything at all then return a few mins later to attempt to finish the job

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It takes hours to grow that crap you should simply expect something stronger compared to a carno, nothing over kill but it’s bleed could be better. Balancing shouldn’t be taken literally in this case since the animals are two completely different classes

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 8:47 PM

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it's understandable when it's a carno, allo, or even a sucho, but being able to give instant death sentences to apexes? apexes which take almost double the time to grow? it doesn't add up to me

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:47 PM

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not instant death

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slow death

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for an apex I reckon it bleeds in 30-35 minutes

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 8:48 PM

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yeah but that doesn't change anything unless you can find a place to wallow

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30-35 minutes?? NAH

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it's not gonna take that long if it's been impaled 2 feet deep

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:49 PM

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then 20-25

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because it's gonna die unless you rest it off

limber elbow Dec 17, 2020, 8:49 PM

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No I definitely don’t think it should instant kill apexes and the time should be based off how many hits it gets in

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:49 PM

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or wallow

limber elbow Dec 17, 2020, 8:49 PM

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If it’s one shot then a apex shouldn’t die soon at all

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 8:49 PM

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alpine plover because it's gonna die unless you rest it off

resting won't do much for bleeding anymore, this isn't legacy

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:49 PM

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it wont?

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 8:50 PM

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bleeding system is really different now

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:50 PM

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ok den

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 8:50 PM

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it won't instant kill, but it'll be a death sentence until you can find a place to wallow, according to this guy

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even if it's an apex

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that's what i'm against

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:51 PM

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no that's what i asked for, not what it is

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 8:51 PM

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yeah ik

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just saying it's a bad idea

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:51 PM

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current stego is pretty wimpy

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I've seen a single utah solo an adult stego

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while teh stego had a herd

orchid depot Dec 17, 2020, 8:52 PM

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that's not the stego's fault

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that's broken utah

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but it will def be fixed in the future

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:52 PM

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utah won't be broken for long if they add more ways to get rid of annoying pouncers

limber elbow Dec 17, 2020, 8:52 PM

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Run up against a tree I heard it glitches them

alpine plover Dec 17, 2020, 8:53 PM

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that should be turned into a proper mechanic

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knocking them off with terrain

limber elbow Dec 17, 2020, 8:54 PM

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Yeah I think it would be a great implementation

crystal wharf Dec 18, 2020, 10:40 PM

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@alpine plover yes downsize only tenonto and not the grossly oversized carno perfect balance idea

obtuse shuttle Dec 19, 2020, 12:42 AM

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downsize both

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ez

lean shoal Dec 19, 2020, 1:46 AM

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📎 ntc3AzB.png

grave veldt Dec 19, 2020, 2:47 AM

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Honestly I don’t get why they upsized them in the first place

urban marsh Dec 19, 2020, 6:15 AM

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grave veldt Honestly I don’t get why they upsized them in the first place

same

inland lagoon Dec 19, 2020, 10:46 AM

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Sims that stego and carno should not be there

inland lagoon Dec 19, 2020, 1:43 PM

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@cedar shore can now adult tenonto fight back carno?

true ginkgo Dec 19, 2020, 4:44 PM

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I'd rather juvie teno got faster, not stronger.

it's never going to be fighting a carno or utah as a juvie, unless its stats are buffed to utterly ridiculous levels.

if it's a bit faster it has a better chance to dash into the undergrowth and hide.

toxic crypt Dec 19, 2020, 10:25 PM

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Dryo and teno seems especially awful to grow for their size, which is odd considering they're both pretty small herbivores. You'd think their juvis would be more capable.

slow shale Dec 19, 2020, 10:54 PM

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Teno fucks up carno as long as it keeps its ass to it

toxic crypt Dec 19, 2020, 11:08 PM

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crystal wharf <@456226577798135808> yes downsize only tenonto and not the grossly oversized ca...

teno is actually more oversized than carno is

raw cypress Dec 19, 2020, 11:56 PM

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Downsize carno until bigger creatures come

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Keep teno the same

true ginkgo Dec 19, 2020, 11:56 PM

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Dryo kind of gets away with it, because despite the juvie being stupidly slow, it's also so small it's near invisible and can vanish in an instant.

Juvie teno on the other hand is complete fodder with absolutely 0 counterplay to anything if spotted. The only good tactic is sit in a bush for two hours and pray nothing spots you. It's large enough to be pretty easily spotted, but runs almost as slow as a baby stego and can't even try to lose things in the undergrowth.

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utah, carno, and stego juvies are around half the adult speed. teno and dryo juvies are well below that.

alpine plover Dec 20, 2020, 2:24 AM

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Mix herding is the result of having an entire roster of dinos being bodied by two carnivores with one exception being the Stego

sinful cove Dec 20, 2020, 5:38 AM

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Ngl that suggestion hurt to read

wispy valley Dec 20, 2020, 5:40 AM

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true ginkgo I'd rather juvie teno got faster, not stronger. it's never going to be fighting...

It suffers from the same issues legacy juveniles had. It has the same animation speed as the adult, and thus, is much, much slower for its size.

Carno and Utah, meanwhile, have their animation speeds on crack as juvies, so they are much faster.

minor fjord Dec 20, 2020, 12:49 PM

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You guys think the Carno is too favoured in terms of bite force and bleed resistance atm ?

vagrant inlet Dec 20, 2020, 1:42 PM

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Bite force is fine

hollow canyon Dec 20, 2020, 9:11 PM

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Bleed is completely irrelevant in the current game. Every animal has a ridiculous " bleed resistance" you will have died 4 times due to losing all the health before you bleed out. As for Carno - it is fine the way it is in the current game.

alpine plover Dec 20, 2020, 9:24 PM

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carno is not fine

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it's way too tanky

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and does too much damage

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and comes straight out of tokyo fucking drift

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either nerf its hp, damage, or remove its ability to drift

meager ice Dec 20, 2020, 9:32 PM

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Feels like kentro would have been a better choice than stego, if you had changed carno and teno to have accurate sizes

hollow canyon Dec 20, 2020, 9:56 PM

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Carno is as tanky as Tenonto, it has ~2k health and dies to 2 hits from a Stegosaurus. It doesn't do too much damage either. If you think it does you should say what specific match up Carno does too much damage in because I can't think of a single one that would be unfair to any other dinosaur. The only animals that Carno might be actually oppressive to are Dryo and Hypsi. Both of them are small and agile enough to lose it in the woods. Utah doesn't fare very well against Carno in a 1v1 however 2v1 Utahs are quite capable of taking down a Carno if they play it properly and again - they are free to disengage and escape into the jungle where Carno is really subpar.

alpine plover Dec 20, 2020, 10:06 PM

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Bruh wdym I’ve seen carnos face tank 3-4 stego shots and walk away scot free while then bleeding out the stego

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As well, a singular carno beat up my entire Utah pack because it could drift and for whatever reason drifting drags its hitbox along like it does in legacy

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As well, juvi carno capable of beating 3 sub Utahs and 2 juvi utahs

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Not even juvi

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Fresh spawn

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Tenont can slap it 6 times with its tail whip and carno still beats it

lean shoal Dec 20, 2020, 10:09 PM

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the reason stego was added was because it was mostly done already and the devs didnt want to delay the update with something else and figured adding it would be fine.

alpine plover Dec 20, 2020, 10:09 PM

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You could give the keyboard to a half eaten, rotting slice of pizza and it would still be able to beat anything in the game

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You can rush in and face tank anything and everything as a carno

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The only thing is loses to up front is a stego

lean shoal Dec 20, 2020, 10:10 PM

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except stego. you have to bait one to kill it.

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even then baiting most stegos is easy.

alpine plover Dec 20, 2020, 10:10 PM

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And even then 4 carnos bumrushing a stego beat it

lean shoal Dec 20, 2020, 10:10 PM

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3 carnos is scarry for a stego.

alpine plover Dec 20, 2020, 10:11 PM

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AND THE WORST FUCKING PART

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They’re absolutely everywhere

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20+ carnos in the centre

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Not to mention a bunch more everywhere else

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And somehow

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They don’t starve

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Why?

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Because they can face tank anything and everything so they just camp spawns

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I’ve been spawncamped several times I’m sorry for my little outburst

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I just hate not having counter play to a group of carnos

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Especially when there’s 50 of them in any given area

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They don’t care that they have 7 bodies, they don’t care that they’re full, they’ll drop absolutely everything to kill the fresh spawned Utah

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📎 image0.jpg

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I’ve died 7 times already and I’m so tilted help me

hollow canyon Dec 20, 2020, 11:07 PM

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You're literally completely wrong about pretty much every thing you said - I myself killed 6 adult Carnos as a Tenonto just a last night(although only 2 were fully grown). Tenonto has a pretty even match up against Carno. As for Utahs if your entire pack dies to a single Carno you should seriously think about what you're doing wrong. The pounce does a tonne of damage and you can use it from just about any angle. If Carno is "tanking" 4 Stego hits that means this Stego isn't landing its attacks or it lands them on the tip of the tail. Two attacks with the thagomizer that land on Carno's torso kill it instantly.

hollow canyon Dec 20, 2020, 11:52 PM

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As for the situations where you have packs of 20 carnos - yea that's busted but this doesn't mean that the animal itself is overpowered. It's the same case as the legacy Allosaurus which on its own is a pretty decent playable but nothing crazy however it seems to be overpowered due to the fact that you usually encounter them in large packs that are capable of killing just about everything barring a Giga. There simply needs to be a way to limit how many of those predators can be gathered in a single area without starving to death.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:26 AM

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Alright

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I’ll sit this one out and wait for something more powerful to be released

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As the saying goes “there’s always a bigger fish”

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:28 AM

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hollow canyon You're literally completely wrong about pretty much every thing you said - I mys...

Idk maybe hit boxes are really weird

#

I can’t pounce them it’s so weird I just clip into them and now I’m stuck under them

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:28 AM

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The issue with waiting for something more powerful to be released is that the only carnivore that's larger than Carnotaurus is Deinosuchus.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:28 AM

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For now

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:28 AM

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For the foreseeable future.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:29 AM

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Yea

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:29 AM

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I think the roadmap covers around one year of time development-wise.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:29 AM

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Yea each update is around a month or 2 right

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:29 AM

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So it seems

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:29 AM

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How long was update 2 in development for

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:30 AM

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I can't say when exactly the devs started working on it but update 1 released on the 28th of September

#

meanwhile update 2 was released on the 30th November

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:30 AM

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So yeah around 2 months of development

#

And fluctuating depending on content

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:31 AM

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Some of the stuff might've been done prior to the release of update 1, it's difficult to estimate things.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:31 AM

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Update 2 was pretty bug

#

*bug

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*big

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:31 AM

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For example certain animals like Allosaurus, Spinosaurus, Magy or Deino had some work done on them way before the update they are included in got into the works.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:31 AM

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Yea

#

Deino has an alt bite since the dawn of time

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And another anim idk which one

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:33 AM

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Overall I'd imagine Carno to be the most powerful terrestrial predator in Evrima for the near future however I think it's reasonable to make it so that it can be overpowered by animals like Dilo or Cerato when the circumstances are in their favour.

#

Obviously a pack of smaller animals should be capable of killing it as well but speaking in purely 1v1 terms.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:35 AM

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Carno’s drift is the only thing I have qualms about atm

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You’ve debunked everything else, which makes me feel a lot better

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It’s ability to drag its hitbox around like in legacy is absurd

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:36 AM

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Are you speaking about how far it drifts when it comes to a full stop or about how it can stop moving and change direction?

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:36 AM

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It can turn on a dime

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:36 AM

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Can it do that? I thought the damage frames in Evrima are really short for each animal Carno not being an exception.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:36 AM

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It can

#

I’ve been bitten despite the anim already being done

#

Like it starts drifting

#

Bites a gods 20 meters away

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And then the entire drift deals damage

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:37 AM

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As for turning on a dime I've been able to outmaneuver Carnos as a Tenonto which isn't exactly an agility-demon itself so I think it should be doable for the smaller animals.

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Are you sure it didn't charge you or something? Because that doesn't sound right

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:37 AM

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It did not

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It was mid turn

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So no way

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:38 AM

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Hmmm... weird I haven't encountered this myself but perhaps it's some kind of a bug

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:38 AM

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Idk maybe it’s just me rubberbanding into it’s hitbox idk

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:39 AM

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I had some fights where I got hit by a Carno that seemed to be somewhere completely else but that was definitely due to rubberbanding and Carno teleporting all over the place.

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Which I find is a big issue for the herbivores as they waste stamina on their more powerful attacks which in turn miss due to Carno/Utah just teleporting around.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:39 AM

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For sure I was standing away from it so either I rubberbanded or spaghetti code

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:40 AM

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hollow canyon Which I find is a big issue for the herbivores as they waste stamina on their mo...

Yea that’s an issue

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:40 AM

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Might be either, if it keeps happening try to record it

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:40 AM

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They’ll need to optimize the game and fix a metric fuckton of bugs

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:40 AM

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Trust me, it was much worse couple of months ago

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:40 AM

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Before combat feels nearly as good as it can be

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I wasn’t in a couple months ago, and now you make it seem like a good thing

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:41 AM

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Yea things like that screw the combat experience over but smoothing such things out is a longlasting effort

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:41 AM

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Yea

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:41 AM

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I've played Evrima since its release and rubberbanding/teleporting and all this stuff was much, much worse back then.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:41 AM

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I’d say probably around the cerato update they’ll probably have fixed the main issues

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I wouldn’t say that, I had an ok combat experience

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But it might be different for others

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Considering how in optimized it was

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 12:42 AM

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My experience in June before the first hotfixes were released was pretty bad. As time went on it got better though.

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Overall I'd say that all those problems were consistently getting better as time progressed.

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I can't say how long I'd estimate it will take the devs to make it a truly enjoyable experience where such things don't happen anymore. I expect it to be a lengthy process however.

alpine plover Dec 21, 2020, 12:43 AM

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June was fine for me

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But yea my estimate is only based of off how fast they squashed bugs up till now

vague steeple Dec 21, 2020, 4:05 AM

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What’s the tick rate for EVRIMA servers?

orchid depot Dec 21, 2020, 7:04 AM

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stego is heavier than carno by ALOT
it won't knock over even a sub

sinful cove Dec 21, 2020, 7:36 AM

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Aggro stego? Tip: just walk away from it because stegos are slow as fuck and carno shouldn't be pushing them over because it's a small prey hunter. Crazy right

hollow canyon Dec 21, 2020, 11:12 AM

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Yea Carno doesn't need any buffs and it just shouldn't be meant to hunt Stego as a general rule.

cloud urchin Dec 21, 2020, 6:15 PM

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@alpine plover I feel like I get what you're trying to say, it just sounds a little weird.

You want to introduce competition between herbivores by making their food sources more limited. Yes?

tidal jacinth Dec 21, 2020, 6:55 PM

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Utah does need to jump off faster or farther in order to get out of the way when it cancels a pounce

desert wave Dec 21, 2020, 10:37 PM

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@gritty sentinel you need to press e to get them off

gritty sentinel Dec 21, 2020, 10:38 PM

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Ohhh

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Hold or press

desert wave Dec 21, 2020, 10:39 PM

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Hold

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It will do a bucking animation

stark knoll Dec 21, 2020, 10:59 PM

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@gritty sentinel hold e to buck, itll drain their stamina faster

gritty sentinel Dec 21, 2020, 10:59 PM

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Thanks

sinful cove Dec 22, 2020, 6:59 AM

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Yes give tenonto's CC a CD so it is 100% free carno food instead of 80% that would be great

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Its gonna get steamrolled when allo comes out too but yeah let's nerf it

hollow canyon Dec 22, 2020, 12:18 PM

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Idk about it - in general there's some issue with Tenonto being capable of stunlocking other animals at times. If I understand correctly this was addressed in the latest fix where it's been made so that there's a small gap in the stun effect where the animal affected can get away after being headshot by the tailslam however if it doesn't retreat it gets back to being stunlocked. I personally think that perhaps putting a cooldown while increasing the duration of the crowd control could be a good idea that would allow us to avoid such situations. E.g. let's say that the current stun effect lasts 2.5seconds and it works two times in a row adding up to 5 seconds - I think it could be better if the duration was 5 seconds from the get go with the affected animal being invulnerable to this effect for 2-3 seconds afterwards. So that you can't pile the stuns up on something.

Do note the numbers I put up there are completely random, I haven't tested how long the CC actually lasts, however I disagree with Tenonto being free food for Carno. I've killed quite a couple of Carnos during a short 4-hour session as a Tenonto. Admittedly Tenonto is quite reliant on being in areas like the swamp so that it has a way of getting out when there's more than one Carno(your stamina limits how many Carnos you can fight at once quite severely).

That coupled with the fact that Carno is significantly more popular due to being a carnivore and a new addition makes it so that it may seem like Tenonto's in a really bad spot but that wasn't my experience when I played it. And I played it specifically to see how it does against Carno so I pretty much fought any Carno I could see.

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Just to clarify: Tenonto should absolutely not have any cooldown on its tailslam attack - that would literally end this dinosaur as a playable. There should however be some cooldown to the stun-effect that is being applied to the animal affected by the tailslam.

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 2:05 PM

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h

grave veldt Dec 22, 2020, 4:04 PM

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does teno even stunlock carno

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i swear it does sometimes and then other times it doesnt i dont get it

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is it because of locational dmg?

hollow canyon Dec 22, 2020, 9:27 PM

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Allegedly Tenonto could've stunlocked any dinosaur prior to the current patch. I myself haven't experienced this because I haven't played Tenonto until now and I haven't had a chance to fight any Tenonto prior to this patch either. But apparently it was possible.

grave veldt Dec 22, 2020, 9:28 PM

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So does teno even stun lock rn

dry badger Dec 22, 2020, 10:32 PM

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@alpine plover I'd say that's a #general-feedback thing moreso. I deleted your og post, feel free to move it there.

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 10:33 PM

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@dry badger its balancing.

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Evrrima gets too much attention

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While legacy is neglected

dry badger Dec 22, 2020, 10:33 PM

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📎 unknown.png

granite ruin Dec 22, 2020, 10:33 PM

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was about to post that lol

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 10:33 PM

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-_-

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Still tho

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Evrima players are legacy players too

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Evrima aint nowhere near finished

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And if legacy is shit

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It will also affect evrima

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yes but they LITERALLY CANNOT UPDATE IT

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fix one thing, 3 more things break

granite ruin Dec 22, 2020, 10:35 PM

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Thats why they are working on evrima

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and what king said

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even if they could it would split the small team and updates would take much longer to publish = people complaining about lack of updates

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 10:35 PM

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👆

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@alpine plover currently lag is just too much to handle

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To a point where id prefer a small server

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There are times where u cant even WALK properly

granite ruin Dec 22, 2020, 10:37 PM

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lets take this to #general-feedback-discussion

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 10:37 PM

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yea

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b4 we anger krow

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 11:12 PM

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@cedar shore nah nerf carno's turning

cedar shore Dec 22, 2020, 11:14 PM

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alpine plover <@!256446321546887168> nah nerf carno's turning

It really doesnt need nerfing. An utah can run around it with ease

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its allready been nerfed

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 11:14 PM

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cedar shore its allready been nerfed

it has?

cedar shore Dec 22, 2020, 11:15 PM

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yeah, same with its accelleration and de-accelleration

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 11:15 PM

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then it's perfect

cedar shore Dec 22, 2020, 11:16 PM

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Yeah its really good, only thing i dislike is utah pounce registering regardeless of where you pounce

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It makes large utah packs unstoppable for any carnos as they can just head on pounce it and overpower it

granite ruin Dec 22, 2020, 11:21 PM

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yeah the latching onto every part of the dino no matter where or what it does is annoying and stupid

alpine plover Dec 22, 2020, 11:21 PM

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no pounce zones need to make a return

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and then the cast is perfect

sinful cove Dec 23, 2020, 1:08 AM

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.... think i almost had a stroke reading that

alpine plover Dec 23, 2020, 1:14 AM

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@alpine plover godzilla had a stroke trying to read that and fucking died

cloud urchin Dec 23, 2020, 7:19 AM

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@alpine plover I don't want to assume, so can you clarify what you're selling?

lean lotus Dec 23, 2020, 7:22 AM

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He wants grass's ability to regenerate your hunger up to 20% to be limited, so herbivores have to be active.

cloud urchin Dec 23, 2020, 8:46 AM

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@lean lotus Thank You. That aside, how about just letting players fill their entire hunger and just limiting the amount of grazing they can do in any one area.

hollow canyon Dec 23, 2020, 12:15 PM

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I think it could be made so that you can regenerate far more hunger than now but you would be doing it excruciatingly slowly. I'd also turn grazing into a "stance" of sorts. This way you would just press one button and your dinosaur would start to graze, locking your camera and making you unable to look around. You could naturally walk during that time. This way it would make it so that it's more so used to not starve/not lose food while you're waiting for someone or biding your time rather than actively trying to get food. Perhaps it could be used to just stop hunger drain altogether rather than to gain food.

All these would make it so that grazing wouldn't be a viable alternative to eating actual bushes. During my last time playing a Tenonto I haven't eaten a single bush since the moment I'd hit full adult. I just grazed for the entire time and I'm not sure if this should be a viable strategy to stay alive.

cloud urchin Dec 23, 2020, 5:16 PM

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@hollow canyon Neat, but, imagine if grazing in an area removed the grazeable food instead. Eventually leaving you with no ability to graze unless you went somewhere else, and no ability to feed in that current area unless you found a berry bush.

hollow canyon Dec 23, 2020, 5:17 PM

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Sure, it is a decent idea too but I think that if grazing an area removed food from it preventing grazing it should probably regenerate food instead of just stopping the hunger drain. At the end of the day perhaps the devs might see those ideas and combine them into something nice depending on how they picture it working.

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I just know that rn grazing is kind of silly.

cloud urchin Dec 23, 2020, 5:24 PM

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Oh by all means (sorry I didn't say it before), grazing from the area in the way I suggest would give you Full Hunger provided there was enough food-there's zero need to stop you at 20%. Plus, this doesn't remove the desire for bushes because we will eventually get the diet system which is going to lead back into the perk system and Elder system-it just makes them separate and special points of interest.

sinful cove Dec 23, 2020, 7:46 PM

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Lmao another utah player that's salty they can't walk off a double impaling from an animal several times their size

rapid charm Dec 23, 2020, 7:47 PM

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gets implied by meter long spike

Eh I’ll just walk it off

cloud urchin Dec 23, 2020, 8:14 PM

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One Shot is not a mechanic, it's just math-Their Dmg>Your Health. The Impalement is a mechanic that has a chance of activating from your death.

lean shoal Dec 23, 2020, 8:16 PM

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they also seem to not know that its really hard for a stego to survive a pack of utahs if its alone.

prime sandal Dec 23, 2020, 9:06 PM

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Okay I guess you lack eyes and the ability to read, so I'll explain here.
" especially with all the lag"
It's annoying to die because the game has a stroke in the middle of a fight, if the game mechanics were perfect and the game didn't run like absolute shit, I'd be completely fine with it, if it could be counteracted by being good at the game.

alpine plover Dec 23, 2020, 9:08 PM

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Lag isn't always the games fault my friend.

slow shale Dec 23, 2020, 9:08 PM

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So instead of the devs optimizing the game
You'd rather add something that breaks all of balance in fights

prime sandal Dec 23, 2020, 9:34 PM

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Well are they ever going to actually get it optimized, might as well put a band-aid on it

alpine plover Dec 23, 2020, 9:35 PM

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I still think they should stick to mildly smaller maps than Spiro or Spero whatever it was. Having such huge maps takes centuries to load and most importantly optimize.

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Love big maps, but also hate em for the load times n stuff.

slow shale Dec 23, 2020, 9:36 PM

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Yes, it is going to be optimized
And changing the balance of every single small dino against a bigger dino
Completely changing the viability of every single dino in the game isnt a "band-aid"
Its changing how the entire game is played

alpine plover Dec 23, 2020, 10:29 PM

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Mhm

alpine plover Dec 23, 2020, 10:56 PM

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alpine plover Mhm

He’s not wrong, the one shot should exist. But they should definitely optimize the game

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Ye

hollow canyon Dec 24, 2020, 1:55 AM

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Lag has to be gone but there's absolutely 0 reason why a Utah should be surviving an attack with the thagomizer. Utahs already have it way too good against Stego(and just about any other dinosaur in the game)

alpine plover Dec 24, 2020, 2:14 AM

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True

limber elbow Dec 24, 2020, 2:25 AM

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buffing a utah as a means of compensating for lag tho seems kinda silly and a step backwards in progression imo

hollow canyon Dec 24, 2020, 2:29 AM

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The last thing this game needs balance-wise is a buff for Utahraptors

opaque yoke Dec 24, 2020, 3:19 AM

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Most of the lag comes from people playing on 150 person servers when they were only meant to hold 80. But officials have been pretty empty, so I've been doing the same and the desync gets nasty after like 120. I don't really understand why its even an option for server owners to set it that high

cloud urchin Dec 24, 2020, 5:00 AM

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@prime sandal ...this changes nothing. Lag is not an intended mechanic of the game-there is no Lag Meter the game keeps track of to decide when and where you get screwed over-nor is it specifically caused by Stego's Tail Atk. If it's annoying to get One Shot by a Stego, than just stop attacking them as Utahs or less than 100% Carnos if the lag is that much of an issue for you.

cloud urchin Dec 24, 2020, 5:01 AM

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alpine plover I still think they should stick to mildly smaller maps than Spiro or Spero whate...

They could just use Stasis and Unstasis

hollow canyon Dec 24, 2020, 10:54 AM

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The problem is that it's not because of the number of players - I've had the same issues on official servers.

alpine plover Dec 24, 2020, 12:39 PM

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Mhm

wheat veldt Dec 24, 2020, 3:45 PM

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I don't think it's lag people are referring too...rather the random teleporting that's been occurring since the patch. It's making the game unplayable right now and it's happening on all servers, regardless of population...

silent dew Dec 24, 2020, 5:49 PM

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well, there exsists no game with perfect latency and no package loss. saying they should reduce lag is like saying "devs come give my house glass fibre, but do it for free cause i bought your game..."
performance and optimization (netcode and similar mechanics) are still top priority, getting the new content to work with it seamless is the goal everyone is working towards.

to reply on Tranoks feedback, imagine being impaled by a 1m long bonespike that goes straight through your body and still be alive... well yes, for in rl you'd had a few more beats to suffer the pain and than still die.

hollow canyon Dec 24, 2020, 6:44 PM

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It's not really about the latency, that's the thing, Melo. I don't think it's an issue that's caused by the ping on a given server. It's a pretty consistent issue on every server no matter whether it's NA or EU and no matter whether it's got 150, 130 or 70 players on from what I can see. The game seems to "stutter" quite a lot - what I mean by this is that it sometimes stops on a single frame for a moment before jumping forward. First thing to blame could be the hardware however it seemed to be happening both for me and my friend simultaneously. Another issue is the teleportation typically experienced while fighting Utahs and Carnos(presumably due to their speed?).

As for the oneshots: it doesn't matter whether it makes sense realism-wise or not. Stego simply HAS to be capable of oneshotting Utahs otherwise it would be getting absolutely butchered by them left and right. If you could tank a tailswipe from Stego as a Utahraptor you'd really never die to one as Stego takes a bit of time before it can attack again. You could just send one Utah to tank the stego while the others pounce it freely from the safe directions killing the Stego without it having any chance to fight back. Atm you at least are at a risk of dying as a Utah. Admittedly there are certain issues with the tailswipe that I think might need further investigation but they could be caused by lag(however I don't think they are).

toxic crypt Dec 24, 2020, 10:05 PM

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I've not had this teleporting issue when I was following along a 7 stego herd with a swarm of hypsis and 3 tenos. We even got attacked by carnos and raptors at two different times and nothing happened. This issue is not a universal thing happening to everyone.

alpine plover Dec 24, 2020, 10:10 PM

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Lag is a common issue, I don't face it much when I play. Also keep in mind, frame stuttering or frame lag and lag are entirely different things. So don't mix up shit frames with server/client lag.

hollow canyon Dec 25, 2020, 2:11 AM

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My point is that both are very much present, it's difficult to say which one has a greater impact on how the game plays. Last week I've mainly encountered the stuttering and things didn't really teleport. Nowadays however animals are teleporting all the time(again: mainly Utahs and Carnos - I am yet to see a Stego teleport anywhere).

meager ice Dec 25, 2020, 9:45 AM

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Yeah, frequent rubberbanding has caused my third hiatus from evrima because the devs messed something up. Was fine before the update, now I have stegos biting me from ten meters away

short estuary Dec 25, 2020, 6:30 PM

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@alpine plover how is it not ongoing content for content creators?

alpine plover Dec 25, 2020, 9:33 PM

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meager ice Yeah, frequent rubberbanding has caused my third hiatus from evrima because the ...

Speaking about stegos, a wacky thing which had happened today for me was that a stego had stabbed me through a boulder I was sitting on as a raptor.

meager ice Dec 26, 2020, 4:36 AM

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sounds right

hidden ore Dec 26, 2020, 4:45 PM

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Yeah I was playing a a fresh spawn carno and a stego ran towards me so I sprinted away and was about 30 feet away when it swung it’s tail and I died

summer mulch Dec 26, 2020, 5:18 PM

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yes let stego shoot its thagomizer spikes like stormfly

alpine plover Dec 26, 2020, 6:19 PM

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Stego gun when

alpine plover Dec 26, 2020, 6:52 PM

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Stego machine gun

alpine plover Dec 26, 2020, 7:43 PM

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Just imagine metal slug

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But it says

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“Stego machine gun”

lean shoal Dec 27, 2020, 1:17 PM

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fresh spawn stego is also a 1 shot from carnos charge.

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if it cant deal damage it is just dead meat. keep in mind its supposed to be an apex but its full adult stats are toned down for now because it only has 2 predators.

alpine plover Dec 27, 2020, 2:27 PM

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A baby one shots a full adult carno

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That's not right dude

hollow canyon Dec 27, 2020, 6:55 PM

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Not even an adult stego oneshots a fully grown adult Carno, much less a juv Stego. Having said that - Stego is clearly not supposed to be an apex according to what the devs have been saying this whole time. They don't view it as such and it's clear from its stats that it's not an apex.

split gull Dec 27, 2020, 9:55 PM

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I think mrgharial was saying that baby stegos are one shot by a carno that is charging - which is correct and should be that way.

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baby stegos should just be meat to an adult carno, which is why until they are big enough should stick to thick dense brush or within a herd

hollow canyon Dec 27, 2020, 11:35 PM

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I was referring to what No said - the first line of what he said specifically. As for the rest - I agree that Stegos being vulnerable to Carnos while they are juvies is fine for the most part. It just wouldn't be realistic for them to take a fully grown Carnotaurus on as a fresh spawn.

cedar shore Dec 28, 2020, 9:59 PM

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@surreal plover I dont think teno needs any rebalacing imo. Its really strong.

lean shoal Dec 29, 2020, 4:09 AM

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tenontos growth time is pain.

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2 hours for it when its not a mid tier.

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and gets dumpstered by carno.

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you miss a tail slam they get a free bite.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 4:12 AM

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I do also agree that teno gets owned by a carno, it;s really easy to bait a slam and if you keep baiting till the teno runs out of stam = easy kill, teno atm vs carno is very one sided imo fair if the teno gets a slam then slams more the carno will leave it or die but it reality that doesnt happen often.

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and even if the teno gets the slam its not a garantee that the teno will win

lean shoal Dec 29, 2020, 4:14 AM

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if tenontos tail slam cost about 20% less stamina and it grew in 90-105 mins instead of 120 it would be better.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 4:14 AM

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teno cannot run away from carno and carnos bite i think does more dam then claw

lean shoal Dec 29, 2020, 4:14 AM

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dryo is way more fun because you cant actively escape.

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carnos bite does 250 ish damage i believe with the charge doing 500. tenontos claw does 200.

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even still carno has more hp and a faster attack speed with its bite.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 4:16 AM

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yeah carno bites like crazy

lean shoal Dec 29, 2020, 4:17 AM

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the drift is a bit much and should be changed when larger predators are in or at least make it so it has to stop before turning then.

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i understand it partly to check stegos.

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(until allo or the apexes are in)

slow shale Dec 29, 2020, 6:19 AM

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That moment when you unironically rely on one of you're weakest attacks to kill a larger dino TI_pue1

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 11:13 AM

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Carno does 350 damage, if you allowed it to get to your front - you've already messed up. I think that 1v1 it's not a bad match up unless Carno starts teleporting around making you miss the slams. Other than that I've had no issue killing Carnos however Tenotno is in a lot of trouble if more than one Carno shows up at the same time making Tenonto rely on water. Every time I'd be in a situation where I wouldn't have had enough stamina to take Carnos on I'd swim across - if they follow you they make themselves vulnerable to a slam right as they're still in the water which is pretty much a death sentence.

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Tenonto's claw attack definitely does less than 350 damage btw, I'm quite certain the tailslam does 360N as long as you can hit this one the Carno has to either back away or it dies and unless it's teleporting around it really doesn't seem that hard to do.

cedar shore Dec 29, 2020, 2:22 PM

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I mean, Ive 1v2ed carnos as teno. You just gotta hit your slams well and preserve stam at all costs

modest carbon Dec 29, 2020, 4:13 PM

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its hard, but possible

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 4:15 PM

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heavily depends on the players (as most combat situations)

crisp elbow Dec 29, 2020, 4:21 PM

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With the major issue of de-sync the game is currently having across servers, fights are very much one sided.
A Carno merely has to bite, which is easy and why most players currently hate Carno players as they're too upscaled from their actual position in the chain of predators. There isn't really any skill to a Carno as they outrun everything else, currently do too much damage for their jaw design and turn on a dime. (Personally I would love to see a Carno fall over when it tries to stop too quickly).
A Tenonto has to time its tail slam, which is near impossible when the Carno is teleporting all over the place and can go from running at full speed to a full stop instantaneously.
There is no fight. It's unfulfilling, it's frustrating.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 4:26 PM

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I feel that carno needs a slower recovery when it skids or drifts, its too fast and allows easy turns to fight agaisnt pursuers like utah (which it doesnt need to do because of its speed) carno is very strong and the main thing it has to worry about is other carnos due to their speed. I do agree that their damage is too much or their bite is too fast for their intended playstyle and their turn turned down.

Playing carno was easy for me as its a "apex" predator atm and can live easily if it plays smart. Carno isn't really a challenge to play imo as it can just avoid stegos and even bait them out.

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 4:48 PM

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I don't think Carno does overwhelmingly well against any other animal to the point where it would be oppressive to any playable - Tenonto might be the one that has the most issues but my track record as a Tenonto against Carnos is so far better than my track record as a Carno against Tenontos(admittedly this might be due to the fact that I had more changes to kill Carnos as a Tenonto than vice versa because there's more Carnos than Tenontos around). I don't think Carno's turn should be nerfed in any way as this would actually make Carno worse at hunting small game which is already not that easy. After having played a Utah against Carno - this is a match up in which you genuinely have to mess up really badly as a Utah to get hit at all and this is with Carno and its current turn rate. I can't imagine how ridiculously easy it would be to fight/escape a Carno if its turn rate got nerfed further. I actually find it funny that Carno seems to do better against Utahs in close proximity of the jungle than out in the open.

crisp elbow Dec 29, 2020, 4:55 PM

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Carno is already overwhelmingly powerful even to small game such as Dryo. Their dodge has no i-frames, makes them lose all speed and have to go through acceleration again, at which point the Carno easily turns on a dime and is back to full speed in an instant. The dodge mechanic is rendered utterly useless since they're already outpaced by Carno and this "evasive manoeuvre" offers no assistance when the thing you're running from can actually turn better than you can.
Small game should have some level of difficulty to catch. Being small means being quick and nimble which currently, as I said, is rendered useless by the poor application of the dodge mechanic and the Carno's current standing.

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 4:58 PM

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Dodge mechanic is just awful itself and really badly implemented, not that it matters since you really don't need to use it at all to avoid a carnotaurus due to Dryo's overwhelming agility.

crisp elbow Dec 29, 2020, 5:01 PM

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Even when dodge is somehow 'fixed', the current standing of Carno is still an issue. The turn/deceleration/acceleration is far too quick and their bite is too powerful.
But I suppose we'll have to agree do disagree. Some players just want an easy to play and win dinosaur I suppose.
🤷‍♀️

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:07 PM

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Again - which animal suffers because of Carno exactly? I've played against Carnos as both Utahs and Tenontos and I had 0 problem dealing with them. So far it seems like your belief that it should turn worse is based on either the legacy where its turn was worse than it is in Evrima or on the fact that it just feels to you like it should be worse at turning. In my opinion its turn rate is already bad. You literally can't get hit by a Carno if you're a Utah or a Dryo unless you don't see it coming or you get stuck on something.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:12 PM

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For me I meant its drift turn, it shouldnt be able to 180 drift to attack pursuers so easily.

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:13 PM

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I generally didn't notice that all that much but that might be because I haven't spent that much time chasing carnos myself.

crisp elbow Dec 29, 2020, 5:13 PM

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We were indeed talking about the drift.
(I don't think they read the context of what we were talking about).

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:14 PM

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ive spent awhile playing carno and had little to fear, even people saying teno has a good chance is a no its easy af to kill a teno as carno lag or not. Experienced carno players dominate and can even kill some less experienced stegos

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:15 PM

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I haven't noticed that being an issue even in the couple of instances where I chased a Carno as a Tenonto to provoke it to attack me I had no trouble turning around before it turned around and reached me.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:15 PM

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a pack of utahs doesnt even scare that much due to the tree abuse

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i mainly meant utah with that example

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:16 PM

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To my knowledge good Utahs will not allow you to ram them into trees, they just disengage before you reach the tree in my experience. Bad ones get caught by that and you can kill them easily indeed.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:16 PM

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and good carnos will just leave making the fight null.

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:16 PM

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Carno indeed has little to fear in the game right now but I don't find that surprising - Utah also had nothing to fear for the past half a year or so.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:17 PM

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thats a different game, new game new utah

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:17 PM

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Carno can die if it gets staggered by a Tenonto while in presence of other dinosaurs but that's pretty much it. Most situations where people die are due to their own missplays in Evrima I think.

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Nah, I meant in Evrima

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:18 PM

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yeah thats because it was the only carni

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:18 PM

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Literally the only way to die up untill Carno/Stego and Hypsi were added was either to other Utahs or due to own incompetence.

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Carno is in the same situation now - as more animals are added it will become more vulnerable.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:19 PM

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and thats why i dont argue that carnos can take down stegos, i dont expect it too. teno is meant to be a 50/50 in a 1v1 (open fields) but carno has more forgiving attacks then teno thats why i think its more 40/60

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even if the teno gets those 2-3 tail slams the carno can still win due to tenos stam costs

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ill have to wait and see what they want carno to be in

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:22 PM

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It might be, so far I haven't had trouble killing either Carnos as a Tenonto or Tenontos as a Carno, in both cases the fights seemed fair enough with the only things that I found annoying being teleportation being really bad for Tenonto and the fact that it takes a long time for Tenonto to go from running to a full stop to use its claw attack.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:23 PM

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its also really easy to see when a teno wants to slam

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if a carno gets hit with the very first slam then gg lol

crisp elbow Dec 29, 2020, 5:23 PM

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If a Carno gets staggered, even in the presence of other dinosaurs, it can still easily just run since bleed is currently not an issue and it can outpace everything and get a good enough distance away to wallow in safety.
Anything else can just easily be camped and attacked whenever they so much as start the animation to wallow since the dinosaurs don't seem to have any real sense of 'urgency' when wallowing whilst injured.

The Carno has no real drawbacks. If it charges something bigger it gets stunned sure, but those are usually new or inexperienced Carno players and don't last long.
With Tenonto, going up against actual experienced Carno, the game is so much different. Their stamina drain is ridiculous, their claw attack does little damage and laughable bleed, and they can't outrun.
If 2 Carno go up against 1 Tenonto, the Tenonto is done for. Sure it might just be able to take down 1 Carno but the other can then just face-tank it since it will have no stamina and their bite is devastating.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:24 PM

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in any case if you find 2 carnos and you're alone your dead, unless you're a stego lol

crisp elbow Dec 29, 2020, 5:25 PM

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In any case, their bite damage still makes no sense for their jaw design.

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:26 PM

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you want it to be like legacy carno?

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:26 PM

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crisp elbow If a Carno gets staggered, even in the presence of other dinosaurs, it can still...

If Carno gets staggered in presence of other animals it should be dead before it recovers from being slammed by the tail. As for Carno's speed making it invulnerable to the entire roster - it's always been an issue, also back in the legacy. I always hated that about Carno but Idk how the devs intend to make it vulnerable.

crisp elbow Dec 29, 2020, 5:26 PM

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God no, but the damage currently is still too much.

hollow canyon Dec 29, 2020, 5:26 PM

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How much would you want it to be?

granite ruin Dec 29, 2020, 5:27 PM

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Tbh in a survival game, speed is op (dont take that literally) the ability to chose your fights is always strong in these sorts of games

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id rather their bite speed reduced

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promote hit and run rather then tank and bite