balance-feedback-discussion

[cosmic pelican]

#balance-feedback message
Ceras whole thing is being durable and resistant

[rich locust]

shouldnt be that good against 3 ton rexs after getting pinned

[cosmic pelican]

A 3t rex barely does fracture damage

Besides, the last thing rex needs is even less competitors, its already overpopulated as heck because barely anything can stand up to it

[limber delta]

yea a 3t rex can't even fracture a 100% pachy in the first pin, pachy might need fracture resist mutation, but that's extremely common for pachys to have (bc friendly fire exists)

Cera is decent but definitely not op. They're also pretty skill reliant compared to their competition (rex, allo, bluetooth bull carno)

[vale brook]

i cant say ive ever thought about using the bone break mutation as pachy because of friendly fire

you may have put me on

[limber delta]

I always get it after my first entomb lol. First one is the congenital, bleed resist, diet drain and water drain, after first entomb i go the bone break and eating=water

[vale brook]

maybe its because im a solo player 90% of the time, pachy group play is less in the front of my mind

hmm

[limber delta]

I also play solo usually but sometimes I see randomers and join em, that's why I don't go for it on my first life

Pachy is fun but I still miss when they could stun slightly larger creatures like pre-rework carno

[cosmic pelican]

U6 pachy making teno unviable because it could stun it infinitely and was faster

I was there... and it was misery

[limber delta]

nowadays with all the pinslop and one shot nonsense I doubt U6 pachy would even be that good 😭

maybe if it was combined with the huge prime weight of today then it'd be op

[cosmic pelican]

If it kept the old stun thresholds it could stun a prime allo, though barely

If it stays the same weight as it is now

Kinda crazy to think about ngl

[limber delta]

not saying it wouldn't be op... but damn would it be needed to purge other op playables

Definitely doesn't feel good trying to fight a cera or something and getting bit every time because pachy stuns itself for like 0.5 seconds after hitting a ram

[crystal stream]

The isle pachycephalosaurus are commonly found in forested regions or areas with plenty of rocks. Experts suggest this is because of the predator and prey relationship between them and Carnotorus. Carnotorus thrive in open areas due to there fast speed and agility however pachycephalosaurus are not completely helpless. There are numerous reports of severely injured carnotorus still walking around with what looks like broken bones some being so severe that the animal can no longer move. This brutal act of self defense is what keeps what seems like helpless easy prey into a risky endeavor for carnotorus

[junior jay]

Thats the parry

[thorn mountain]

its a bug, but yes

[junior jay]

I dont think the devs ever said its a bug and its been In the game for a long time so doubt its a bug

[spark hull]

FIX FISH

[calm nimbus]

I wanted to expand on the pounce/pin rework with Omniraptor too but ran out of space sadly

I'll save that until the next 6 hours

[autumn zephyr]

#balance-feedback message it does have that it just doesn't work half the time 😭

Or might only work when standing still? Im not sure

[rugged verge]

fix your game i have crashed and lost so many dinosaurs by your buggin game

[ruby ledge]

the game is in active development and warns you of this everytime you open the game.

[rugged verge]

They need to fix bugg

[ruby ledge]

they do. and they are currently working on a patch.

[rugged verge]

Nice

[trim falcon]

#balance-feedback message I think that cera being unpinnable with its charge bite activated is a little stupid imo, if the cera is in a bad postion and completely side on, charge bite shouldnt save it.

If its pinned from the front/ towards the head with its charge bite active then it should do more dmg than it would without when fighting back

[plush mulch]

I am curious what the devs idea of balance is. Are they thinking Time to age, availability of food, and pack size limits are balanced against Prime Elder stats/capabilities? Because if you are..... your math is wrong in quite a few areas

[calm nimbus]

Point of Charge bite is that it's a defensive more stationery attack with an obvious telegraph. Perhaps not the side, but that defensive option should favour the Cera given Allo's general superior advantages

[trim falcon]

I think that frontally ish 100%, but from the side it should do absolutely nothing for it

[calm nimbus]

Yes, because right now there's literally nothing Cera can do in that matchup

Or even if it gets forced in a confrontation, theres no counterplay other than jumping in water where its infested with Deinos

[trim falcon]

Yeah

[worldly timber]

rex has their mouth open when they about to crush while they stand still

[finite shadow]

A speed adjustment would do wonders for the matchup

[junior jay]

Your not talking about buffing cera speed right?

[calm nimbus]

I don’t think necessarily buffing Cera speed would resolve the issue in the matchup. Given Cera’s role as a scavenger brawling bully

What it needs is essentially respect from Allo, enough where Cera can injure, inflict sickness or put up a damaging fight if an Allo decides to really finish one off

Allo’s pin just obliterates that dynamic right now

[cosmic pelican]

Or just nerf allo speed?

Only reason it needs to be as fast as it is is because of prime and sub rex running 40+ kmh

[calm nimbus]

It’s kind of an ambush hunter, an Allo needs speed to escape the Apexes like Rex

[junior jay]

Cera can Kill allo

[calm nimbus]

Yeah if there’s no pin involved somehow

Or in water

[cosmic pelican]

Even if there isnt, adult allo is faster than peak prime cera and facetanks it

Cera is just cooked either way

[calm nimbus]

That’s why the charge bite should just armour through pin

[junior jay]

Prime allo cant pin prime cera

[calm nimbus]

It should be the main deterrent in brawling against Allo’s, Teno, Maia

[junior jay]

Cera is faster at peak

[cosmic pelican]

87% cera is 39.7kmh, adult allo is 39.8kmh

[calm nimbus]

That’s like a hyper specific scenario. Most players are average Allo/Cera

[junior jay]

88 cera faster

[junior jay]

How is that hyper specific

[calm nimbus]

Because not everyone is a prime playable coming across another prime

99% of encounters are average adult Cera and Allos

[junior jay]

Ok Adult allo cant pin 77% prime cera then

[calm nimbus]

That’s an irrelevant point, since the core issue is the matchups of both adult playables

[junior jay]

Not even every 1 is prime when you see them Or juvi cause they afk till adult

[junior jay]

Cera is faster it can run from Adult allo

[calm nimbus]

Allo should not be one/two shotting Ceras from a similar size tier range, especially since Cera is a brawler type

[finite shadow]

Nerfing allos speed, it currently keeps it for too long and is probably a tad to fast

[junior jay]

Allo aint 1/2 shotting them so what is the problem

[finite shadow]

Yea but the next % it starts losing that speed

Allo keeps its adult speed till it’s like 3.5t is pretty ridiculous

[junior jay]

Yes thats the elder system for you

[finite shadow]

This is also wrong adult allo can solo grapple a prime cera

[junior jay]

If its below 20% hp/bleed/stam yes full hp/bleed/stam no

[finite shadow]

Yea that’s what solo grapple is

Not hard to get cera down to that with allos bite speed

[junior jay]

I said pin not grapple

[finite shadow]

The fact that allo still has a good chance of solo grappling it which does the same as a pin makes it a valid point

[junior jay]

Pin and grapple are different you have to work to get a grapple pin is free

[finite shadow]

I understand that but with allos bite speed it ain’t hard work

[junior jay]

Depends on cera

[calm nimbus]

We’re not asking for Ceras to 50/50 Allos. We’re asking for counter play. Options to ensure that in a matchup. Allo has a healthy respect for its direct competitor

[finite shadow]

I wouldn’t say direct competitor

[junior jay]

Water, tree, rock, cliff all of those work if ur good enough

[finite shadow]

Cera and allo in an open field the Cera should really stand little chance

[calm nimbus]

So trees where Cera cant climb, rocks where it can’t jump. Maybe water if there’s no deinos around

When ceras niche is a tanky brawler that eats rotting corpses

[finite shadow]

Tanky on a body

It is the body brawler not brawler

[calm nimbus]

Point stands even

Kind of ridiculous that Allo slams so much of the roster excluding Apexes

Which I suspected it would

[finite shadow]

The moment allo starts messing with something around its own weight it gets smoked

[calm nimbus]

Not really because of the pounce, it’s pretty crazy

They just made it a giant raptor

They melt sub rexes so hard

[finite shadow]

The pounce doesn’t even do that much bleed or damage anymore its grapple that carry’s allo

[junior jay]

Not tanky

[finite shadow]

If you pounce a good maia or dibble you will end up infront of them and lined up for a stun

[calm nimbus]

Well forget Cera then, keep it abysmal atp

[finite shadow]

All we gotta do is remove Rex ambush speed so we can be more flexible with allo and ceras speed then just give Cera the speed advantage and adjust allos speed curve and Cera is now fine

[calm nimbus]

I’m not sure they will. They could nerfed it by requiring a crouch or limiting seconds of the speed boost

But the speed boost and ramming pin from Rex is just ridiculous

[finite shadow]

There’s enough Rex sized bushes and choke points throughout the map atp It really doesn’t need it, also have to consider allo wasn’t given ambush speed due to the fact it was considered too problematic for balancing but rex gets his due to favouritism

[calm nimbus]

Which is kind of silly

If I had my way, pounce/pin would be parry’d. Cera can use Charge bite to avoid aggressive harassment. Rex would have a short ambush time that dies down in speed.

As well as a reworked pounce for Raptors

[junior jay]

Use legs

[calm nimbus]

Don’t speak on anything

[junior jay]

Run

[cosmic pelican]

Cera loses speed as it ages, so 88% would be even slower than 87

Even if we exclude peak prime, god forbid an allo finds you when youre past 90%

[junior jay]

88 is Peak not 87

[cosmic pelican]

87.5% actually ☝️ 🤓

[junior jay]

💀

88 has better Stats than 87 so its Peak In my books

[lucid lark]

@steep echo herraras have a wimpy bite force, one of the slowest movement speeds in the game, and extremely terrible stamina management, probably the worst in the game total, it’s combat effectiveness is basically zero outside of its pounce. If anything Herrera is in one of the worst spots it’s ever been in because of this update.

[steep echo]

slowest move speeds? In what world is 45 slow

[lucid lark]

It does reach 45, when.

[steep echo]

Are you suggesting that the bite speed is fine because its stats suffers until adulthood?

[lucid lark]

It’s bite speed is fine because its damage is low, and it can’t manage distance the way every other carnivore can.

[steep echo]

You have to consider the other creatures in its weight bracket

If another carnivore like troodon catches it off guard on the ground, the herrera should have the disadvantage

But the bite speed gives it no room for punishable errors

[lucid lark]

You can’t be seriously saying a Herrara on the ground is at an advantage to a Troodon

[steep echo]

Yes I am saying that

It's got the turn speed, the same running speed

[lucid lark]

Ight your 100% just trolling at this point I’m out

[quick pendant]

@steep echo
the difference between deino and herrera is that deino is 8-13t, and herrera is like 250kg, the bite speed dealing like 30 damage or so (i cant remmeber) isnt that big of a deal because unless you are a troodon, beipi, or a dryo you can just 1-2 shot a herrera

[limber delta]

troodon is like 5x smaller than herra and still can easily beat it by just spamming pounces

[vale brook]

^ i dont understand why a herrera should have to hunt things significantly smaller than them exclusively from the trees.

especially when currently, troodon/dryo can mess him up BAD and i cant imagine the matchup is super favorable with ground rework PT

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message

id much rather them just implement mechanics that can a) reduce mixpacking and b) not be heavily abused. which is alot harder than it sounds

but OSA's are already stretched so thin as it stands, to the point where it feels weird to start banning people for playing a specific way, when there are a multitude of options for players to choose from to avoid that specific playstyle to begin with

[bitter iris]

@unique dagger they plan on it

[vale brook]

oh em gee its me!

[finite shadow]

Cringe lackeys

[eager saddle]

?

[thorn mountain]

why is don white

[slim dragon]

Got fired from the team, as redditors asked

[thorn mountain]

LOL

someone should put that in the reddit see what happens

[bitter iris]

Hm I do not know, but the quote is real

[eager saddle]

Bro that statement is such a programming mood though

[thorn mountain]

ik 😛

I still hate how they adding that back, but maybe it makes herra better in some way with climbing

[bitter iris]

Idk I like it, bucking is not good enough on its own

[thorn mountain]

yea, but we say that like we even used to use bucking

like it wasnt even EVER used, id rather them just make bucking good

[bitter iris]

Ya idk I like the idea of using terrain to your advantage to avoid them and for the allo/raptor would have to adapt.

[thorn mountain]

adapting is not the right word

more like "oh damn I cant hunt anymore"

like thats what I hated

if they amde it so you actually had to be top speed for like 2-3 ish seconds and then to run into a tree or rock to knock them off that would be cool, or not to just drop them to the ground and instead just do the dismount.

[bitter iris]

Not really, raptors could still hunt when it was a thing and allos have more hunting tools, claw swipe. Like I’ve won fights against maias without using pounce, not because I just didn’t want to because I didn’t need too

[thorn mountain]

not allowing a creature to use its main move to kill large animals isnt really good

imagine if we just you know, made trike or dibble get stuck on a tree if they used their flip attack and hit a tree, that would suck. Also raptor cannot use claw attack all it can do is literally bite without pounce

its so stupid, invalidate a creature because there is a literally object near it

raptor was shown in jungles, so was allo, but both cant even play there without just not working correctly

[bitter iris]

It doesn’t make pounce completely useless though, I was literally a raptor main before Rex and allo and I was doing fine

[thorn mountain]

what you pounce for 1 second while they run there or you jump on the back or front?

can we literally just say its not fun

[bitter iris]

Also I think your momentum idea could worked

[thorn mountain]

it would, it would make it so you actually gotta Run them into a wall.

and it cant be abused by turning in a circle as you lose speed

[bitter iris]

Man I was having fun. Anyway I have to go we can continue this later if you want

[thorn mountain]

its 10pm for me LOL

[bitter iris]

O damn

[stark ether]

I really feel like ptera being able to attack playables should be the norm. The average seagull can do some pretty violent fly-bys to anything near its nest.

Rather than cripple ptera, just give all playables a better way to attack up.

I’m sure this will make balancing quetz a lot easier as well.

Like the sweatiest pteras being able to safely peck a carno to death before was awful, sure.

But so is a ptera not being able to interact with 90% percent of the roster in a meaningful way.

The only reason they could kill stuff safely is because nothing has attacks that go upwards unless you have jump.

[spring willow]

True current ptera isnt a threat and is laughably useless, to escape an old ptera menace all you had to do was walk into a forest, which are everywhere, but instead they made the playable useless

-making it turn like a bus to the point where a fg elder rex can outmaneuver it is wild

[crystal stream]

Jst use z turn

[spring willow]

rage bait lol, ill give u 30 mins to get me in an open field as ptera, and ill play a small playable of your choosing, its literally not possible as a ptera main with too much time on this game :S

[crystal stream]

It was ragebait good job 🤗

[faint swallow]

make growth progress less time

[bitter iris]

#balance-feedback message maybe make it so when Diablo hits allos tail it would stun instead of knock over

[open flicker]

#balance-feedback message

if you’re dying to a Maia as anything smaller, skill issue I’m ngl, Maia is so slow, sluggish at turning unless in quad (which means it is slow speed) and takes a long time to speed up to its max speed. If anything Maia is underpowered imo, and I don’t play Maia btw. Every time I see a Maia I think free food, no matter what I am playing. Idk how you’re getting no attack window because they’re so dang easy to kill it’s crazy. I can’t say I’ve ever died to a Maia tbh. I can kill fg ones on just about any carnivore in the game

Everything smaller than it can just zig zag to avoid it, it’s turning circle is horrendous unless in quad which means you’re faster than it anyways and when was the last time you seen a 10 pack of maias 😂

Probably the weakest herbivore in the game if you ask me (excluding the unicorns) only thing they have going for them is the ability to run away from threats

#balance-feedback message

rex has a significantly long animation for a crush, you can bite it like 3+ times as a dilo, or land an easy pounce as allo, troodon and Omni.

Me and 2 other mates have easily killed 3-4 tonne Rexes as just 3 troodons, the crush is already very punishing for missing believe it or not. I think allo is the bigger problem tbh.

From a herbies perspective this probably feels very annoying, idk I haven’t played any big herbies to take on a Rex yet; but a cd would just lead to a Rex waiting for the cd to come back before going in again since it’s faster than trike and I think Stego also (not 100%)

[hasty coyote]

You havent fought a good maia then, stance swapping can negate like 70% of its mobility issues. You can drift in biped, swap to quad mid-drift, accelerate to near max speed quickly, swap back to biped, and get back on their tail in seconds. Its def not as effective against hyper mobile tiny stuff like omnis in a 1v1, but it it only needs a single hit to combo into death. But the main victims are stuff like teno and cera, who are small enough to get bullied but not fast enough to escape. Not to mention if there are multiple maias they can easily cover your escape plans even as a small and shrug off any friendly fire.

I do agree most maia players are not the best with it and we def don't need to balance them around having 10 of their own species at any given time. But anyone who knows how to play maia can tell you its def too strong atm. Personally, the main issue is just the damage. It has higher damaging attacks than diablo and enough cc to stun or knockdown anything it should be fighting. Meanwhile, anything it can't fight, it can easily just run from since its faster than an omni at adult.

However, a growing maia is def incredibly weak because they are just so slow for so long for no reason.

[stark ether]

Maia just needs better scaling. Stronger and faster as a baby, and only as strong as it is rn at peak.

[open flicker]

Well really herbies shouldn’t be killing other herbivores. That’s just a player issue, but teno and cera can both outswim it so it’s not like they have NO option, even if this isn’t always available.

Also yeah it might be very strong with a very good Maia player, but I’ve killed 4 tonne Rexes as 2 Troodons, does that mean troodon is hyper op and needs nerfs? I don’t think so 😂 if you’re significantly better you’re going to win regardless most of the time. I don’t think Maia is fast enough to mean it’ll just win vs things like a good Omni pack, only win if the Omni players are worse, which is how it should be

Personally I haven’t experienced the damage, being something insane, but I think if you’re getting hit by a 4 tonne Dino as a 600kg Omni you should probably be dead. I wouldn’t expect to be living that

[trim falcon]

I personally wouldnt say significantly long but yeah, the main thing is them being able to do it again almost immediately which leads to ridiculously annoying fights yk? you need to continue baiting the crush immediately after that animation is done mostly, and with the servers being how they are, you will get pinned even when they only hit your tail making it extremely risky.
ofc rex fights in general SHOULD be very risky but this is just too much.

because rex is able to spam it constantly it creates a very unfun environment around it and screws herbies WAY more than carnis . it just takes 3-4 crushes or less to fracture a trike and stego and it can do that within 10-15 seconds( a bit longer with stego since you have to bait swings or else you die to bleed). It being that agile paired with being able to spam crush makes it horrible, atleast imo.

[trim falcon]

Its a bad maia if its very sluggish. maia is like trike where you need to be switching stances a lot in order to be at its best🙏

[open flicker]

you guys must be finding some god tier maia players honestly, because i cant say ive ever seen a maia that looked quick

[trim falcon]

I mean i would say a lot if not most dont know what theyre doing in most dinos

and esp for the ones where you need to switch stances

[open flicker]

i still think if being really good covers up most of the weaknesses of a dino that's not bad tbh. like i main troodon and theres not much i would lose to unless i stuff up, realistically a good few troodons can kill anything in the roster, i dont inherently think that's a bad thing tbh. I think i would call the dino unbalanced only if bad players are killing everyone with it

[trim falcon]

yeah

[vale brook]

troodon is held back by the fact it only requires 1 mistake to lose though lol, thats why its not bad

maia is one of the tankiest non apexes we have, one of the fastest, one of the highest damage dealing, alongside having generous CC conditions

[open flicker]

i mean yeah, but it also grows in like 40m unlike maia

what fight exactly do we think maia has too much damage in?

because like a teno can pretty much one shot a raptor if it lands a nice tail slam and that's a fraction of the weight and i never seen people say nerf teno

i doubt a maia is just one shotting allos

[vale brook]

tenonto is not running those animals down lol

maia is

i dont see where the confusion comes in

[stark ether]

Maia is a bit like rex where it is both faster and stronger than some playables.

The primary difference being Maia has terrible turning and has to land an attack to combo off of, rather than just 1 button.

[open flicker]

Maia is not running anything down with its turn radius though, what exactly is getting run down? Everything that’s slower than it turns far better 😂 if you’re running away in a straight line against a Maia you just don’t know what you’re doing

And it it stance swaps it loses all its built up speed making it slower until it swaps back, in which case you can just zig zag again

[stark ether]

There are movement techs skilled maias can use to turn better, but they do have a limit. It’s still clunky

[open flicker]

Idk how good a Maia player is, if you’re being caught by one as an Omni that’s skill issue end of story 😂 you wouldn’t see me in a million years due to that, and if I did I would be laughing at how dumb I was not complaining that Maia is op lol

[open flicker]

100% I’ve tried it and know that it’s instant speed from quad to biped but it’s not like a 100% reliable fast acting thing you can do, it’s still much less agile than a cera or Omni by a long shot

[keen plover]

They're very solid as adults and horrifying as an elder. When there's more than one, you're pretty much guaranteed dead as a mid tier. You're not escaping or fighting them lol

[open flicker]

Honestly just feels like everyone wants herbies to be clunky messes that just get rolled by carnivores 😂 who would play them then? The incentive of Maia is the fact that it can on occasion run down carnivores. Nobody complains when a Carno is killing an Omni and Maia is essentially Herbie Carno 😂

[keen plover]

Maia is speedy and grows quickly. Already goated in the survival aspect. It doesn't need to be as powerful

[open flicker]

I mean in an open field yeah, but why are you solo raptor in an open field, use bushes and trees and you’d easily get away from even a pack of 5 or more

[keen plover]

I'm talking about mid tiers lol. Diablo, sub rex, cerato and allo

[open flicker]

Cerato while slower turns really well, I don’t see escaping a Maia as a problem for it especially in forested terrain, Rex might be more of a problem since it’s turning circle is similar to Maia but I don’t think we need to make a fg Maia incapable of killing a 2tonne or so Rex

Allo possibly yeah, but again if it’s a Carno killing them no one would have a problem, we only seem to have a problem when it’s a herbivore doing it

[keen plover]

Elder Carno does kill adult allos and yeah, it's in the lamest way possible

[open flicker]

Nah bro Maia is not solo killing an adult allo 💀 that’s just skill issue

Even matchup at the worst, easily allo favoured

[keen plover]

I didn't say a solo one?

[open flicker]

And they’re in the same tier, maias should have a chance

[open flicker]

If you’re getting 2v1’d you’re getting 2v1’d…. You want a solo allo to be able to 2v1, 2 maias ? lol? 😂

You should die

[keen plover]

I don't mind solo allo dying to 2. I think the way it dies is lame and needs work. Same with diablo, it just dies to 2 lol

[open flicker]

I mean yeah, but still it’s not like you don’t have a chance

[keen plover]

What chance

[open flicker]

Your turning is still slightly better, you deal tonnes of bleed so they might not be able to keep chasing

Right click can be used to dash out of the way of their charge, use the forest basically

[keen plover]

Maia grows quicker than all of them, is faster and doesn't need to hunt to survive. I don't see why it should have a chance 1 v 1?

[open flicker]

Do people just forget about the map? Use the map to your advantage that’s why it was put there 😂

[open flicker]

Because why would anyone play it if it didn’t have a chance to fight 1v1 something in its size range, I’m sorry but that’s just a bad take 😂 dryo is in the game if ppl want to be useless and we see how many people play that 💀

Far more Stego players than Maia players, why? Because Stego absolutely slaps anything 1v1, that’s what’s op, not Maia lol

And I don’t think “easy to grow bc herbivore” is justification for them being significantly weaker, the whole incentive to playing a herbivore is survival off food is guaranteed

[keen plover]

Lol man. It doesn't need to be gutted. Just nerfed in its cc and damage. Again, I think maia should be bullying stuff, but not like rn imo

CC shouldn't stagger diablos for one. Adult v adult. Then reduce the damage a bit.

[open flicker]

Diablo is less weight than a dibble tho, dibble can stun something twice its weight why can’t a Maia stun something less than it, it only makes sense. Yes it’s annoying for dibble but really they shouldn’t even be fighting that’s more of a player issue. Nerfing it bc of this is like what happened to pteranodon because players used it as a scout, and most players just have to deal with it being garbage now bc of it

[keen plover]

But why does a maia need to stagger a diablo?

There is no world a diablo is ever killing a maia without the maia resting. It's not even a threat

[open flicker]

It doesn’t, but removing its ability to stagger Diablo also means it can’t stagger a 3tonne Rex, despite it being like close to 5.5 tonnes. That’s insane lol. Nerfing Maia against one fight means it will lose power against all other Dino’s. Diablo is supposed to be slow, that’s the downside to playing it.

If Diablo is the only suffering party in this 1v1 it just makes more logical sense to give Diablo some form of cc immunity like when holding right click for example.

But even so I don’t think Maia should be balanced around 1v1 bullying of smaller herbivore species it really has no reason to fight anyways, instead of focusing on the carnivores that will actively try to attack it

[hasty coyote]

even if herbies have no reason to kill others, that doesnt mean they shouldnt be balanced around that fact. Otherwise you will have trolls exploiting it because theres nothing stopping them except morals (which they lack).

Though they can escape via water, water being their only option isnt great tbh. Especially when maia can kill them in only a few good hits and does not have much trouble landing those hits.

Also I'm not saying we should nerf things based on the best player vs the bad player. I'm saying we shouldnt balance around the bad players. All it takes is a little practice on maia to learn how to handle it, its just that most players don't have the practice nor have the want to learn. Not to mention the fact maia doesnt generally attract the people interested in pvp (as it isnt "cool") and generally attracts the type of player who rather runs away. Hence why most maia players can barely control it, and balancing around them would be like balancing around the average omni players who die to the first alt attack.

And yeah, a maia vs a pack of omnis is going to be based on the number of omnis and skill, but thats not the issue. The issue is maia being as strong as a diablo but as fast as a omni. For context of the damage, its back kick hits twice for a total of 450, its stomp deals 500, and the stamp attack deals 450. Meanwhile diablo's attacks are dealing 275-350 or 450 with the gore. Even if its realistic to deal more damage at that size, its not particularly fair.

[hasty coyote]

he said to make it not stagger adult v adult, so 3tons compared to 2.8 tons. And even then, maia also doesnt need to be staggering 3 ton rexes. It can likely already face tank them to death as is while also running faster.

[open flicker]

I honestly don’t see a Maia brutally stomping me 1v1 as a fg Diablo, I could be wrong but Diablo seems far more manoeuvrable, and can even block hits it won’t be able to dodge, and does some hefty bleed also.

[open flicker]

And the stagger shoulder barge is quite literally the entire selling point of the Dino, without that it’s just bigger Gali basically

Removing that against creatures that are smaller than it is like removing pachy headbutt stun on smaller creatures than it lol

Just doesn’t make. It should be able to bowl over something half its weight with ease when it’s running at it at 50kms

[hasty coyote]

Firstly I don't think the shoulder bash is the selling point of the dino, the fact you're 3.8 tons and the speed of an omni is the selling pint. We don't have many large dinos that are more about fleeing, which alone makes it unique, but its kit also allows it to stand its ground well against smaller targets.
The cc threshold can be reduced enough so that while adult, it can only stun up to like 2.8 tons, so it can still stun allos without the need to stun diablos. Though imo the stomp is what mainly needs the cc nerf since it allows maia to just spam stomp diablos and stun them repeatedly while clipping though the head to hit the body. And since stomp deals more damage while maia has more hp, it can kill a diablo so long as it doesnt keep hitting the frill

[open flicker]

I just don’t see a Maia face tanking a Diablo; again I could be wrong I haven’t played the matchup personally but from what I’ve seen diablo can one shot an Omni with a stun into thrash, I’ve never been one shot like that by a Maia. I would love to see Maia and Diablo fighting with equal skill levels because I just don’t see a Diablo losing that fight with 0 counterplay.

Even with spar stance the Diablo can always back up whereas the empowered stomp locks Maia in place so you could force a frill shot this way, as well as being able to right click block the damage

[hasty coyote]

Firstly, they did do something incredibly similar to pachy. Its ram used to stun targets up to nearly 4x its size. But that was removed because, similar to maia, it allowed pachy to stun things in a way that was unfair for the target since pachy was much faster.

Second, no one is saying maia needs to lose all cc and damage in its kit. It just needs some of its numbers reduced a bit so that its not so large of a problem. Personally my main gripes are with stamp and stomp dealing too much damage and the cc thresholds being a bit too high. Like just make the stomp not stun diablos+ while being the same age (adult v adult and prime v prime) and prob make the stamp go back to like 250 damage and the stomp deal 350. That alone would help with a lot of the issues.

[keen plover]

You can do it from a stand still

[open flicker]

yeah, but it wouldnt be able to one shot omnis again, which again, teno can pretty much one shot an omni if it lands a stun, i dont see why maia shouldnt be able to, regardless of it being faster than one. Pachy was stunning things significantly bigger than itself, which was a problem, it still stuns anything same size or even slightly bigger, full knocking anything significantly smaller as well. and pachy also breaks bones, so the stun isnt even as necessary whereas maia does not, so what will the shoulder charge do exactly? just be a lack luster damage attack not worth using unless bullying something 1/3 your weight? that doesnt make sense to me tbh

[keen plover]

The standing shove also staggers them

Running shove staggering is fine imo

[open flicker]

ahh okay i didnt know that, if thats the case i think that needs to go, or be significantly reduced in weight sure

[hasty coyote]

most of maia's alt attacks don't deal the heavy damage, its heavy hitting moves are generally tricky to hit on an omni since they are on the front, but they arent tricky to hit a diablo with. Although diablo may have some ways to deal with a maia, the fact this matchup is even close to begin with is the problem. One of these is a defensive bully designed to be slow but excels in 1v1s, the other is a more flee based herbivore who uses its bulk to tank some hits while it gets out.

[open flicker]

but im talking like full speed sprint i think it should 100% be able to stun

[keen plover]

yee the one with the unique anim where it sort of scoops up

need to be full speed for it

[hasty coyote]

It still could 1-tap omnis. Hitting an alt knocks them down, then you just walk up and stomp them or stamp. 200 alt kick +250 stamp is enough to kill an adult omni.

[open flicker]

yeah i think thats fair, so long as it doesnt lose its stun at max run speed i think it's reasonable to reduce its stomp stun or stationary barge

[hasty coyote]

that I would be fine with, the main issue is it being able to REPEATEDLY stun in a face tank.

[open flicker]

yeah but turning around that quick without the omni escaping is kinda rare, most of the time youre stomping into another stomp which doesnt quite kill in my experience

especially with congenital which 99% of them take

i think regular stomp should stun anything up to like 1.5-2t

anything more youd need a max charge

[hasty coyote]

stomp deals 500 damage each, so unless you're missing one of the hitboxes both times, that should kill even a prime.

[open flicker]

maybe even less tbh, i dont think stomp should stun a cera or carno actually

[hasty coyote]

the stomp stunning at that range is fine, since it requires you to be stationary, which means it cant be used offensively except to combo, and you can't chain cc.

[lyric bolt]

@livid plaza u fr think dibb too strong or this just ragebait hahaha

[lyric bolt]

the issue is im pretty sure a prime maia knocks down a adult dibb and the adult dibb cant even stun the maia if the maia is in quad stance and against a prime dibb maia only stuns but still a good maia can absolutely destroy an average dibb

[autumn zephyr]

Oh my sweet little child you have no idea...

[warped zenith]

@lean hawk it's very easy to invent values when you want, dibble does the same damage (in fact more with the trash) weighing only 3.9 tons, a dino with 5 ton does hit you with the body, with all the logic in the world it should do a lot damage, if you complain about why maia weighs so much, dibble also weighs too much, cera too, the only one really closest to his weight is the maia, if they lower his weight I don't see it as bad, but it wouldn't be the only one who would have to lower his weight. Dibble has a stun in its most important attack and then another attack that takes too much damage from you (it kills carnotaurus with oneshot XD), rn I think maia only has 2 attacks that can stun, a side kick with very little range and the double kick which is only from the back, if you realize all the herbs have stun (something stupid but ok), maia is very slow attacking and if you try it you will realize how complicated it's to play and attack with maia, they will have windows to attack you, believe me, a lot, the problem is that maia has come out without a carnivore that can really hunt him, allo can kill him but it is very difficult for him to hunt him, that is the difference, if they continue to release good herbs with new and fresh mechanics that work perfect but then they release a carni every 40 years and on top of that can't kill or hunt much and in addition to that we add that dino is bugged and unfinished after several months and on top of that copy and paste his only "mechanic" so what is going to happen is that all the herbs are very strong, it's evident, they have no competition. The group sizes, if you look closely, none of them make sense, 5 ceras of almost 2 tons are 10 tons approx, that is, you should start crying bcs although you can go with another rex, going alone is normal and that weighs at most 12,300 tons, there are many more like that, the size of the groups doesn't make sense rn, I have already complained and the only thing the

[warped zenith]

@lean hawk community alleges is: "that it really doesn't matter bcs they don't use it or you don't see 10 maias or on unofficial servers they change it", besides being a stupid answer that doesn't solve anything, for that adjust it now and that way the game will be better and balanced, It makes no sense that a dibble can play perfectly alone and if 6 are put together directly they are immortal, if you want there to be 6, make them need to be 6 to defend themselves, that is, nerf the dibble for example (btw for those who probably complain that they are social dinos, trike is a solitary animal, it isn't social, and they have 4 in group, so we are talking about the game also being governed by making it more fun too, and not It's fun that there are 6 immortal dibbles attacking all and very aggresives). The values of weight are also wrong, Idk which calculator you did it on but you aren't even close to the weight of the trike, ima you only play unofficial and that's why you think that the trike is 2 in the group, if you read when choosing a character, you now get the max of the group of each dino, and trike is 4, that is, it is 50,000 kg, also compare the damage, it's the same as what I told you before with the ceras, 5 ceras have almost the same weight as a full grow rex, but they don't have the same dmg (although cera dmg is very high xD), also 3 carnos have 5,400 kg, they are supposed to fight against ceras but they have 9,000 kg, it is too much difference, you complain that 6 dibbles is 23,400 kg but if you fight against 10 maias, 6 dibbles will surely win I think and 1 maia vs 1 dibble usually wins the dibble, plus it's more easy to play dibble, is the maia really the problem? or are they other things? at least I invite you to try the maia before speaking

[tropic falcon]

Holy wall….

[cosmic pelican]

If the maia tries to brawl the allo, the allo can win because of its incredibly fast bite, but if the maia does hit and run, the allo rarely wins.

Whenever I hit and run as a maia the matchup is usually way in my favor, like 80/20

[spiral ledge]

A pro maia vs a pro allo , maia wins , a normal maia and a normal allo, allo wins

[cosmic pelican]

Yeah thats also true, allo is super easy to play

[spiral ledge]

Yep but that is devs fault for doing a very but very límited kit for allo

Crtl + v of Omnis pounce and fast bite

[stark ether]

It’s unfortunate that allo rn does best with either a facetank or pin, and isn’t built to do anything else.

If they actually have it a kit to do like, claw swipe hit and runs, it would have a better matchup vs Maia and a worse one vs dibble, which is what’s needed.

[spiral ledge]

I am allo player but allo what needs is to be hard to be played , vs dibble should be like 75/25 in favor of dibble

I mean allo can decide to fight or not

[faint robin]

Same goes to trike vs rex btw

[spiral ledge]

true

[lean hawk]

Regarding the invented values, the Trike one.
That is correct. I edited it to fix the values and make it clearer overall.
I mostly play on unofficial servers with pack limits there was my confusion.
I am impressed that you combined that information :D.
i respect the friendly mindset. :)

Dibble is not a good comparison.
Its kit focuses on knockdowns with headshot trash or normal auto attacks, with stance switching for mobility (while knocked down as well ofc).
The first option leaves you stationary, creating a large window of opportunity for counterattacks.
It has to slide to be effective in combat where Maia is dangerous all around with CC on all its attacks you don't even have to only stand in front of it like dibble

im far from thinking that dibble is balanced or any dino atm in the game to be honest

I never complained about Maia’s weight specifically.
The concern is the combination of its weight, speed, damage, and crowd control, which gives it a bully-like presence.
It is not the defensive mother; it behaves like a high-speed predator, chasing down smaller targets with running stuns and lethal follow-ups, making it difficult for smaller dinos to escape.

I dont know if it needs it own predator but what i think that it should still be balanced for the current state of the game

Basically, I do not care how they balance that.
If they buff everything else or tweak the numbers until they fix the rest, that is fine.

And please format your stuff.
My eyes are bleeding.

TL;DR:
I never had a problem with the weight specifically.
Maia’s power comes from the combination of speed, damage, and crowd control, not just its weight, making it quite strong and oppressive, mostly for smaller and mid-tier dinos, while being free to choose or run from every fight that might be considered unfavorable.

[icy blaze]

@trim falcon #balance-feedback message

you forgot that the troodon needs its pounces without cooldown as well

[trim falcon]

I don't have any experience playing/fighting troo so I can't say anything to it

[warped zenith]

keep in mind that it is easier to fight and get together between dibbles than between maias, you really don't need to drift, besides if dibble puts his ass against the wall, will have half the fight won, or between companions. As I told you, Maia doesn't have cc in all her attacks, I really think that only the double kick in the back is the only one that can stun you, taking that into account, if you don't chase them they will almost never be able to do that attack, if you expect them to attack they won't really be able to do that attack, the damage is the same as dibble, that's why I tell you that it doesn't really have spectacular damage, in fact if we count the trash of dibble, maia has much less damage, I have already explained that really only 1 attack affects medium/large sized dinos, but the speed does It's a problem, doesn't make sense, it should be nerfed but it's true that if you are a small dino ( you have 40% grow or so) their attacks are going to pass over you, they aren't going to be able to hit you easily.
Maia runs at 46.9 km as an adult, it's a lot, but in the same way, almost all dinos run more as adults, dilo with 47.5 km and utah runs at 46.8, yhey basically run the same so if you see maias far away it's difficult for them to catch you, if in some way you have them close, it takes so long to reach you that you have surely found a stone to be safe, but it is true that it makes them very aggressive (especially if you are prime and they are still adults, ur speed is a very low), cera is the only one that would really be in trouble but with its excessive damage (has more damage than maia) and its spin which looks like it's 1000kg (spins too well) shouldn't be a problem.

[warped zenith]

All dinos should have a predator or dino that can confront them, a carni that is up to the task of being able to kill a maia, but the maia can kill it too, something like the rivalry between rexes vs trikes but let it be 50/50, but it doesn't make sense that he could be very aggressive and even kill carnivorous dinos for pleasure simply bcs it is almost impossible to escape from him if his speed has already dropped, even rn the trikes are so boring bcs almost nothing can kill them that they start trying kill people even with the worst speed in the game XD
what they have to fix is also the size of the group and if they want to leave groups elevated, it must be bcs they really need to be in a big group, otherwise they are simply going to be 10 maias trying to kill the entire server bcs they run a lot.
And regarding the last thing, I like that it isn't fragmented like in the books, leaving it as you have left it seems like it was done by chat gpt many times XD

[hasty coyote]

Alternatively: normal Maia still wins by shift+w the other direction lol

[timber tusk]

#balance-feedback message

Cripple then punish, rather than JUST punish.

[finite shadow]

Sure on rex maybe but allos pin thresholds are already pretty forgiving

[calm atlas]

pls rework AI fish quantity for Deino its unplayable....

[faint robin]

@twilit seal trike running flip hitbox also seems to be too small, not hitting rex tail in 90% cases

[timber tusk]

The thing is, people complain about Pin in general, not that the threshold is too high. Getting pinned at all feels bad with no way to fight back.
I think even Omni doesn’t need the Pin to win, since just relying on its bleed puts it in the same playstyle as Troodon. It’s plenty dangerous even when it can’t pin.

[finite shadow]

Yea but the counter play to the pin happens beforehand imo, I think both the animals speed needs to be lowered and that would help allo not be so close to teno and cera in speed which would help the pin situation

All that hinges on Rex not being so absurdly speedy with ambush speed

[twilit seal]

You have to check that in admin mode to confirm, in my experience it didn’t seem that bad. Sometimes if you dont deal enough damge your target doesnt do the hurt sounds

Like you hit the rex tail, hp goes down from 100 to 97% but it doesnt make a noise

[faint robin]

Might be the case then

Sometimes smaller stuff just ignores it tho, but might be desync

[twilit seal]

Yeah since we cant reall see the hitboxes like the devs can it can he hard to tell

My main gripe was the stego literally having no headshot hitbox

Ive tested it on several dinos that have cc as well, and checked logs, you can hit the neck or spine hitbox but never the head

Makes stego indirectly buffed and harder to kill by anything thats not a rex because you have to further go closer to the tail to get a hit for example as a cera, and miss out on the 2x damage

[faint robin]

I also see thrash being wonky

[twilit seal]

And galli just cannot hit anything

[faint robin]

It can miss things right under it and can go far behind or to the sides

[twilit seal]

Yeah but thrash hasnt gotten fixed since trike release

The hordetest patch was the only update we actually had some intended hitbox changes i think but that broke more things

[faint robin]

🥀

[twilit seal]

Like the diablo flip was too large and strong and its pretty good now, but could be a tad bit larger

It gets awkward not to hit when you see your dialo flying at an opponent during the attack thats cleary inside your hitbox

[bitter iris]

#balance-feedback message this may be a problem with cheaters

[timber tusk]

If you have to do it before, then that’s not counter play, by definition. Bleed has mud and mutations, pouncing has bucking and water, but pinning has nothing you can do after, to counter their play.

[finite shadow]

If I’m an adult carno and I see an adult allo and I know it’s going to want to pounce and try pin me my best counter play is to walk the other way.

We also know that being able to retaliate against pins is something that’s already coming in the future

[slim dragon]

<@&933486433342222376> First time seeing that one

Who the hell wants cracks of windows software

[bitter iris]

Also in #general-feedback and #phase-three-requests

Oh and ai feedback and discussion

[limber delta]

@placid yew sanctuary camping is pretty much the only thing herrera has rn bc it doesn't even have enough damage to kill adults and 90% of low tiers are utahs that will pin and one shot you as soon as you hit them

also it's the only real predator of sanctuary troodons which are a MUCH worse issue for juves

[hasty coyote]

@indigo rain There are 2 main issues with the kingpin idea:
1: it wont stop or lessen mixpacking much unless its on par or stronger than mixpacking. And if thats the case, it just makes a new problem thats potentially worse to deal with.

2: it makes solo play even worse as now not only are you hindered by being outnumbered most the time, you are also hindered by the group being even stronger than if they were all solo. Its just making the power disparity even worse.

(also as a side note, you didnt add any mechanics that stopped it from being used WITH mixpacking. Additionally, the solo player exclusion allows them to instead have everyone overpacking just go solo and not stop the buffs)

[indigo rain]

1: possibly. I'd actually much rather deal with 6 allos than 2 carnos, a cerato, and an allo, because you know their weaknesses and can exploit that, compared to a mixpack covering all of their weaknesses, is the idea. but that is personal preference.

2: yes, they will be stronger, and admittedly that is an issue. I'm not sure if the answer to that would be to buff solos in some capacity, but I've seen how that plays out in POT so it's definetly a mixed bag.

In regards to the last- I WOULD include solos, but unfortunately I've already seen a bug used to detect solo players using the mixpacking (red dinos) symbol, so I wanted to avoid that. There's unfortunately no good way to discourage mixpacking beyond making it not as viable as other methods of play, so that was my attempt at it

[onyx lichen]

@mossy glade Herrera has too much survivability, it has an ability to escape everything just by being near a climbable surface or a high fall, its adult being just as fast as Adult Troodon and Dryo doesn't make sense. Troodon and Dryo actually needs that speed since they don't have an ability that can guarantee their safety like Herrera

[lucid lark]

As a Herrera main even I agree their speed could actually be lowered a bit, preferably they could do this change alongside some desperately needed QoL changes, like the prime requirements being reduced, higher carry weight for dragging prey into trees, and fixing all of the problems that climbing has atm.

[limber delta]

dryo needs a speed buff but troodon doesn't actually need a safety ability, it can use venom to get away, or just use its small size

[limber delta]

@hoary spade the bleed pounce is indeed bugged, either a genuine bug or the devs accidentally made the value too low, as currently it does almost zero bleed. The pin and the damage pounce however isn't bugged so that's your only realistic option of damage to most targets. Much worse vs large targets but there's no alternative sadly. When you pounce hold LMB for damage pounce

[random stump]

#balance-feedback message they nerfed the bleed pounce so it does less bleed and damage then the damage pounce if im not mistaken

[twilit seal]

Yeah just use damage pounce and delete things with free 5k damage

[hoary spade]

yea thing is raptor doesnt "delete" anything bigger than it is 🙂 its a bleed and wait it out scenario all the time, and pray you dont get got in the process, but if theres no bleeding targets out, then there is only get got 🙁

[vale brook]

this would be true if it didnt do 5000 damage in a damage pounce

realistically, you're never going to get 5000 damage off in one pounce but even a fraction of that is pretty crazy

[hoary spade]

i guess i just need more friends to push some pin mechanics while hunting to make it feel abit more playable

[twilit seal]

Bro it literally does raw damage

Have you never realized that it has different attcks for both holding lmb and rmb

It deletes everything including stuff bugger than it is lol, its not a waiting game, its a 5k damage melting game

Its not 5k bleed damage its 5k health damage stuff like teno dies before you reach half stam while latched on

[viscid mica]

Have you tried holding LMB while mounted?

Cuz with just 2 or 3 you can easily shred the health of anything smaller than a dibble, and even than a dibble is well within your capacity to kill

Now I don’t think 5k still applies and if it does only at peak prime

The bleed on pounces is insanely bad rn

No point holding RMB or neutral pouncing

You can bite to bleed out but that’s a lot harder

[carmine shell]

i dont understand why devs keep doing these game and vibe destroying changes and not care about actual things they can do to improve the game

there's 0 corruption but also 0 management

a lotta skill but less brains

only time will tell and maybe these words will look like it came out of an absolute goober next update but i doubt it as of now

[slim dragon]

What are you talking about ?

[carmine shell]

i am talking about how i keep seeing mostly unwanted changes and rarely real things people ask for and would improve game

for example i dont think anyone suggested removing the heartrate healthbar

and devs didnt give any reason to why they removed

they just might be testing us or smth

but i think we can blame it on poor dev management?

ig we gotta theorise on why these happening

[carmine shell]

bumping this

[slim dragon]

They have

[obsidian yacht]

indie game players when the indie game they play is developed like an indie game

[steep echo]

#balance-feedback message
I don't like the resistance part. I don't want them stacking with osteosclerosis and epidermal

[carmine shell]

doesnt mean devs should be able to build a community and then make it mad

[obsidian yacht]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1396350852385603605/1435322479890530415/togif.gif

[carmine shell]

ur right they can do whatever they want, afterall im only stating my opinion

i'd value community first if i were to be an indie dev

[slim dragon]

That's what they all do at first

[hasty coyote]

similarly to how they removed the heart in the menu that told you your exact hp, they want people to "guess" their hp rather than just know it. That way you can't just say "oh I can tank 3 more hits, so I can continue to fight and run off if I get knocked down".

[carmine laurel]

I feel like that is a problem, but having "no filter" "light blood filter" and "less light blood filter" as your only indications to how much health you have is just as bad but on the opposite end of the spectrum

[hasty coyote]

I believe they are in the process of making the blood screens more clear. Though I 100% agree they should have changed the health bar AFTER getting the better ui

[onyx lichen]

iirc they were not finished for the UI yet

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message @viral tiger both rex & allo have animations of them charging up (rex has his mouth slightly open while crush is charging, allo literally bends down and gets his claws out) and omni is getting the same thing

other than that i really dont know what you mean

[versed sable]

is it just me or are maia alt attacks just completely broken rn

[cloud ember]

Unpopular opinion but megalania doesn't belong in this game because it didn't live anywhere near any time periods with dinosaurs lol

[slim dragon]

The dinosaurs in this game didn't live anywhere near any time period with each other

Also the game is set in modern times so none of it matters

[cloud ember]

Ik but still dinosaur time periods

[vale brook]

as long as humans are a thing within game & lore the time period shenanigans mean nothing

[mint star]

this game canonically takes place some time around the 2000s

unless it’s been changed recently

[cloud ember]

Ik, let me clarify that: The playables are from time periods where dinosaurs existed

With the expectation of ptera and Deino all playables are dinosaurs

[carmine shell]

yeah thats the excuse for why they dont need to add AI dinos and also prehistoric plantlife 😭

[indigo rain]

You are canonically playing as a human EIP trapped in a body that only superficially looks like a prehistoric animal. Timeline accuracy is going to be the least of your worries. Maybe there will be realism servers with limited rosters once modding is in, but for the base game megalania is the burrow hunting "apex". Nothing else is as large as it that can go underground.

[autumn zephyr]

Thats also the excuse for having bridges and other human structures, modern day fruit and a retro msdos style ui bruh 😢

[crystal stream]

Not many ppl like pounce but what would you replace it with

[slim dragon]

The premise of the game is to have humans and dinos together
You can't have that without the game happening in the modern world or in a parallel universe

[hasty coyote]

Meg is closer in time to Rex than Rex is to stego lmao

[cloud ember]

So is the boar and deer but they aren't playable lol

[hasty coyote]

I don't see your point? it just shows that "time periods" don't matter. Especially once you look into the game's lore at all and see its more of a jurassic park situation. Hence why theres human buildings, there will be playable humans with guns, and strains are things. If you want to ignore all of those, then just ignore megalania too. I'm sure there will be plenty of unofficials that curate to specifically a dino survival sim and take most that stuff out.

[versed sable]

would it be viable to give maia a buff when it has babys since para is basically going to be a bigger version and have the whistling ability i think maia should also have somekind of passive to keep it viable as a playable cause i noticed apexs get more attention then smaller tiers and i dont want to play a apex simulator

[hasty coyote]

Firstly, I think maia's main difference from para will be that maia is REALLY fast. Maia is faster than even an omni, which is insane for that size. Unless they give para some terrible attacks or have some heavy mobility costs to use its attacks, I doubt it will be anywhere near as fast relatively as maia is. Maia already has some problems with being able to run down certain smaller targets who can't dodge as well as the very small dinos. Unless they make para unable to turn at all, there are many mid tiers who have poor turn rates, allowing para to bully them if its speed is high enough to catch them and it has any combat potential.

Secondly, maia does have a buff for its babies. When the babies are nearby their parents, they get a 5% stam regen boost. Which tbh is practically nothing, I agree, but it does have a mechanic that can be worked with at least.

Third, maia is already really strong in the right hands atm as adult, though its growth is really bad for some reason. So buffing it even more in its current state is already risky depending on the buff. I'd prob wait to see what they nerf (or if they nerf) maia before trying to give it buffs around babies.

[cloud ember]

So you want boar to be added as playable too?

[whole wren]

Just saying if we’re not gonna make rules on mix packing than at least fix it to where we or all of us can get in a group. But run around with a mix pack and it’s aloud but yet I can’t group with them? Figure it out shouldn’t be that hard.

[warm cloak]

They probs won’t to mammal playables

[hasty coyote]

nah we have ava for that niche. Meg is cool because theres a lot they can do with it since its already unique and very different from most dinos.

[hasty coyote]

they are intending to make a system to deal with mixpacking, rather than just doing rules that are hard to police. They havent said what that system is yet though, nor how close it is to completion.

[whole wren]

Not really hard to police the rules on mix packing as long as you have evidence that said person is mix packing such as video or anything else. But if that is true than hey that’s a plus.

[hasty coyote]

Firstly, they would have to have admin surveilence on every server 24/7, kinda hard to go into past reports if it doesnt show the server name nor the name of the players. Even if it does magically have both, its not hard to fake them or have a troll that intentionally follows you around to get you banned. And if you implement rules to stop trolls, then the mixpackers themselves can abuse them.

Theres just a whole host of issues, and most unofficials can get away with it because they're unofficials, but officials cant really get away with mistakes like that. (not to mention the fact that most trolls have alt accounts or ways to pirate the game, so banning only stops regular players who arent doing nearly as much harm)

[twilit gorge]

It's not a bug; it's a numerical issue. don had previously said there would be adjustments, but they might have already forgotten

[limber delta]

that's what I meant by 'devs accidentally made the value too low' (which would be defined as a bug, an error (wrong value) in a computer program (the isle)). I was just unsure whether that was actually the case here, or the value was too low in another way.

[steady orbit]

can u everyone tell who i can do invit a group in the game... im new

[hasty coyote]

You want to go near another of your species and hold 2.

For future reference, probably best to ask questions like that in #isle-discussion

[steady orbit]

but my question is who a can invit, no how i can join

[hasty coyote]

Only the same species

[steady orbit]

thats i already know bro... how, how i can do invit my friends to my same species

[keen plover]

https://tenor.com/view/squidward-squidwardlaughing-laughing-haha-spongebob-gif-27150700

[steady orbit]

pig

https://tenor.com/view/squidward-squidwardlaughing-laughing-haha-spongebob-gif-27150700

[vale brook]

they just have to select the species in the spawn menu like everything else?

you could also use spawn codes when first spawning

[kindred barn]

tbh allos does have an animation for the initaition of the pounce but you can just skip it

troodon is the "sanc hunter" you can't remove an intendet mechanic for the dinosaurus :/

[old mantle]

https://giphy.com/gifs/trump-consequences-NTur7XlVDUdqM

[slim dragon]

#balance-feedback message
Problem : Too many crocs

Solution : Add more crocs

Genius

[final terrace]

It’s not about adding more crocodiles everywhere, it’s about introducing rare, solo apex predators to create risk, balance, and exciting encounters for players, especially against static Deino groups lmaoo

[slim dragon]

What would prevent them from forming megapacks as well ?

[lucid lark]

I don’t think the species that dies almost exclusively to cannibalism needs apex predators around thinning their population out.

What deinos need is the water biomes to not be devoid of life leading to absurd levels of competition amongst themselves.

[final terrace]

Right now, traveling from North Lake almost always ends in death because just a few hundred meters away there’s often a full-growth Deino group camping, waiting for any moving croc. This isn’t limited to one spot it’s the same on almost every river or lake. Adding a rare solo apex predator would help break up these static groups

[slim dragon]

Well
No matter if it's a big croc or a bigger croc, you'll get eaten anyway

[stark knoll]

So then you can get eaten by the bigger, solo croc instead?

[eager saddle]

Deino is just atrocious to play for many reasons, I dont think the groups are the issues

[final terrace]

The goal of adding a rare apex predator isn’t for it to dominate everything, but to disrupt static groups. It should have a realistic chance to challenge a duo of full-growth Deinos that are camping, without being invincible, and, of course, a full-growth Deino could still take it on. It’s about creating dynamic risk, not creating an unstoppable monster

[final terrace]

Growth to full size from one of these predators should take roughly the same time as growing a T-Rex, which makes the idea balanced and sensible

[stark knoll]

I fail to see what this would change, people would just overgroup and camp as the even bigger croc

[eager saddle]

okay but hear me out right. What is an ambush predator supposed to do when it can't camp?

[stark knoll]

Prime deino aready exists

[final terrace]

That’s why there could be a strict limit on these predators just 1–2 per server and their gameplay should be strictly solo. This keeps them rare, makes encounters meaningful, and ensures the game remains about solo play rather than creating dominant groups

[slim dragon]

I don't know how can something be fairly balanced both in 1v2 and in 1v1 against the same species lol

[stark knoll]

But we already know officials won't do that

[hasty coyote]

If a single deino could take it on, how would it even stands chance against 2 deinos?

[final terrace]

If adding a rare apex predator isn’t possible, a reasonable alternative would be to reduce the number of Deinos on the server. Currently, even in the most remote rivers, there’s almost always a full-growth Deino present, making it extremely difficult for solo players to grow. Lowering their population would act as a proper nerf, improve balance, and make solo progression more viable

[hasty coyote]

If there’s only 1-2, all that means is that someone is just going to camp the slots and effectively just act as a 1 man pair of deinos. Or worse, it just pairs with another deino and becomes an even stronger duo.

Unless you have constant admin surveillance over the 1-2 player being the mega croc to stop them doing anything, they will just play like a bigger deino and nothing more. Which means it’s just going to cause all the same issues as a deino, except it’s simply just better.

[lucid lark]

This sounds entirely like an unofficial server problem with the population cranked up, because it’s a non issue on officials.

[hasty coyote]

There’s no way to nerf the population further without also making solo players also feel the nerf just as hard.

Ironically, if you want to make duo deinos not kill every solo deino they find, you have to make deino much easier to sustain and grow the population. As was shown in spiro, when deino was super easy to grow, you would generally run into swarms of like 5+ that were chill. Because any canni deinos would be killed by these groups and any chill deinos would join the groups since there’s enough food to sustain them all.

However, that itself also comes with a whole host of issues as now the 13.5 ton invisible 1-shot is super easy to grow and sustain.

[indigo rain]

The main issue people seem to run into is that starting a playthrough is extremely hostile to enjoyment in general.

I dont think deinos being highly cannibalistic is the problem. It makes sure there are just few enough that players will be scared of water, but willing to risk drinking. This then makes the ecosystem semi-sustainable and gives interaction.

Its when you start playing that you are left with borderline no interaction, and its a luck of the draw on food.

No dino should be unable to start a playthrough. If the ecosystem lacks a specific animal, anyone playing it should be able to climb up relatively easilly. If there is a lot of one species, you will naturally compete for available resources.

Your competition should be other deinos, and other aquatic predators like austro, barry, sucho, spino, or even deinocheirus taking a threat out.

But you should always be able to start over confidently. Even on empty servers with no competition, sometimes a deino will just starve.

I do think and hope that austro and barry will add some life to the aquatic side of things, but unless they can fish like ptera, or the fish ai are fixed, the bottom of the food chain will remain fundamentally broken and thus regardless of what you are, the start of a playthrough will remain hostile.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I think the addition of austro and bary will help deino a lot. Not only are they a food source for larger deinos, they also give a threat to the smaller deinos other than just starvation. Honestly I’d be fine if there were more fish and fish on deino’s diet even if those 2 end up being good population control for the smaller deinos.

Also austro was shown with the same fishing mechanic as ptera.

[indigo rain]

Exactly. And good- that means at least austro will be survivable even if fish are broken.

[scarlet atlas]

Please remove ptera falling when attacking bigger pteras and animals

yall expect a bird that is 1.80 m tall not to even pick at other dinos?

at this point just add a bird that can latch to other birds and drink their blood

or add quetzel asap

[hasty coyote]

The main issue is that there’s no counterplay, and ptera’s damage can easily stack up on the smaller targets who can’t jump. Though I do agree the range should be more lenient.

Also quetz is on the current roadmap, so it is coming somewhat Soon™

[thorn mountain]

#balance-feedback message me when the allosaur does what its intended to do 😮

[faint robin]

https://youtu.be/vZR3nTWk7RY?is=L2Ay_MPoXdk2rO_Z rex doesn't care about trike front at all
So damn abusable

[limber delta]

Yeah I mean bleeder allo isn’t even good right now compared to every other playstyle (facetank autoclicker allo and pounce spam allo) since allo attacks are so telegraphed and allo turns so slow

Honestly respect to anyone nerfing themselves by playing allo how it’s intended 😭

[spiral ledge]

i mean the real problem is how unfinished allo kit is : Pounce Crtl + V from omnis pounce .... clawswipe : Dondi himself said it was a pointless attack , and the bite ..... is sad but that is the true the unique way allo can kill is with his bite

the same dondi said they would develop clawsipe and it is the same from day 1 with same bugs

[limber delta]

Clawswipe locking your direction is such a terrible design choice ngl

Like yes let me run directly into the larger prey my bleeding attack is designed for with absolutely no way to turn

That totally won’t get me killed

[spiral ledge]

is the worst thing i see here lmao , like it doesnt belong to this game that sh1t

[limber delta]

Tbf it can belong in the game with some buffs such as removing the damn locked direction

Maybe give it extra bleed too but less damage

[spiral ledge]

i mean the clawsipes needs better animations , one good point would be if you can do standing still

[bitter iris]

Ngl I don’t think it’s that bad. Main thing is choosing which hand you do is hard

[thorn mountain]

hmmm I see something this person wants.

they want better stam so they can just peck infinitely

[bitter iris]

I think he should be able to peck a little bit bigger, like anything in juvi stage

But ya both of those suggestions together are bad ideas

[limber delta]

tbf i think ptera stamina might be getting buffed after dondi embarrassed himself refilling his pteras stam like 3 times during his showcase of its animations just trying to move around for a few minutes

but definitely not just for pecking reasons

[fossil wave]

ptera IS weirdly boring rn.

[vale brook]

well it is missing half of its rework lol

[slim otter]

I think their damage should just be proportional. Pecking a Trike should do very very little damage, giving the trike plenty of time to go over to a rock or something where it is difficult for the Ptera to peck him. With how Ptera's stam usage is right now, they wouldn't be able to do an extended fight anyway, due to having to regain altitude.

[crystal stream]

Ngl I want yalls take on this but adult allo without pounce is actually super fun and fair imo and that’s coming from someone who plays dibble and Maia

Elder isn’t because it can just face tank stuff with the super fast bite

But adult allo can’t because of dibbles cc and maias speed

If yall ever get the chance def test out allo adult v adult dibble and Maia super fun and fair matchups imo

[junior jay]

#balance-feedback message
@analog mirage
This would become a problem real fast when they add stam drain to bucking again

[finite shadow]

Falls apart the moment you go to fight a stego or trike

[keen plover]

also like without pounce you're not really hunting anything that isn't tiny, since they can just tank the claw swipe and dip

[finite shadow]

Traumatic thrombosis as well

[junior jay]

Why would allo even need to hunt something tiny and Also omni bleeds out In like 10-25 sec if hit by claw swipe so it could hunt smaller dinos

[keen plover]

Yeah that's what I meant lol. You're not hunting anything mid+ with just claw swipe. They can eat a single claw swipe and run off.

[junior jay]

Not really

Due to High bleed

[keen plover]

Carno can. Done it many times

Cerato has bleed res and is fine. Maia has an insanely large blood pool

[junior jay]

Then the allo wasnt that good at tracking

Maia cant be pinned anyways

[keen plover]

Grapple exists though

[junior jay]

And allo claw swipe 1 shots lot of the Small dinos

[keen plover]

Nah I just make a lot of distance and sit. When it gets close, the bleed has usually stopped and i run again.

[junior jay]

Way harder

[junior jay]

Allo cant even pin prime carno

[keen plover]

Yeah but grapple lol. Solo allo struggles sure? But pairs can easily pin them. Which makes pounce a good tool

It's the only way you can hunt them. They shrug off everything else

[junior jay]

Cant if the prey simply turns

[keen plover]

Ok? The point was that allo with just claw swipe isn't hunting them. Grapple is what allows you to hunt them. You only get them if they stick around to get hit more than once

[junior jay]

We were talking about Small tiers carno is a Small game hunter

Small tiers get 1 tapped Or bleed out really fast

[finite shadow]

So you’re saying what bird already said lol

[junior jay]

What do you mean

[analog mirage]

Why would they add back stamina drain

They made bucking take no stamina for a reason

[analog mirage]

Lower stamina makes you easier to pin, why add a system that actively makes you easier to pin

[junior jay]

They remove it cause there was a "bug"/unintended feature when they fix it they will bring it back same as before Or reworked

[limber delta]

as much as I hate to say it allo without pounce does actually struggle to hunt since it needs either the cc of pin or the iframes of pounce due to allo's low speed, terrible turn, and complete lack of cc outside pounce. Claw swipe's forced lunge makes it almost useless vs prey that can afford to trade hits with you (basically anything equal sized or larger)

[analog mirage]

I’ll be real with pounce you don’t even need pin to kill most things. Raptors damage & allos damage are both solid enough that they do the work for you pretty well

All you need to do is just increase the threshold requirements for grapple

Bucking is in a really good spot outside some input issues and bugs.

The hate for pounce is kinda unnecessary. Like Pinning yeah grapple needs changes. But
there’s no reason to remove it

[limber delta]

sadly the game is being powercrept with unfun stuns, huge damage and unpunishable turns and attack. If you don't have at least 2 of these 3 your dino essentially sucks in combat.

Allo is having to compete/combat/face off things like dibble, trike, stego and rex. stego and rex for one are completely unpunishable via allo without pounce iframes. Dibble and trike are somewhat punishable but if you fail to do it, you're losing at least 1/3rd of your hp, so it's safer to just pounce

[crystal stream]

The animation needs some changing but it really isn’t that bad only reason why I said we shouldn’t need it is because of other ppl

[junior jay]

Allo is nothing without pin it is literally the pin/grapple dino everything Else about allo sucks
And even right now the pounce is unreliable asf

[lucid lark]

I feel like allo is a missed oppurtunity for a wounding system that they could utilize where instead of the grapple/pin, they could have a quick grab and slash targeting parts of the body, making it take more damage at that specific part, basically creating a weakness they, and other allos could exploit with cooridination.

[hasty coyote]

I feel like that’s just a bad idea tbh. With how little stam pounce costs, bucking needs to be a consistent answer. Otherwise the only answer is terrain camping, which no one likes.

[limber delta]

The fact that most rocks/trees don’t take pouncers off kinda cancels it out tho.

They should fully remove the rock/tree interaction but bring back bucking stam drain as compensation imo

[hasty coyote]

Then that still just makes terrain camping the main strategy, since bucking will just be a net negative stam. I’d greatly prefer if they kept bucking not using stam but made terrain not insta knock off pouncers (maybe it instead hits stam or hp). That way both are good but terrain camping isn’t practically necessarily.

Plus pipe dream of having the buck duration be based on a number of variables rather than just rng. Like the target’s and the pouncer’s stam, species, hp, etc.

[warped zenith]

@elder fox I only play on official servers and there are no hackers as they say, I invite you to try it, obviously you can find some, they don't disappear, but it is totally viable to play the official ones, the problem is that some have a ping that is too high bcs yes, regarding the ai issue, the solution isn't that you can't die from it, the problem is that the ai almost everything appears in the southern part of the map, there are 30 bugged ai in a place (or area), the same as delta, that's why you see ppl in the same place, bcs the ai doesn't appear anywhere else place or it is much more complicated, if they fixed the poorly made parts of the map, eliminate part of the forests since they have added too much forest becs yes without being clear about a structure and they added spawn from there in more places (in addition to fixing its intelligence) there would be no problem

[pseudo dawn]

remove other trex, and keep me

[bitter iris]

@steel belfry carno is op if anything at the moment. We need things like dilo, dryo, and trike to get more balanced

[spiral ledge]

yep carno is op in that we all agree but in most of the server is one of the playables less played , in pair with dilo , i dont know why but people dont like to play carno , yo can go to whatever server you want with control cap and always is carno available

[steel belfry]

How exactly is it good? I mean I played as a sub adult Carno and did just about everything right and was beat by a juvenile Deino on land (Totally could have been a skill issue but im kinda here to figure out what im doin wrong anyways)

[bitter iris]

Well first he’s a small game hunter, not ment to punch above his weight. Though he can fight things a little above his weight too, like cerato and teno. He is the fastest carnivore in the game and does good damage and stun. I don’t really know about the croc, he’s must have been a big juvi with high bite force or cheating but you really shouldn’t be loosing that unless he’s bigger than you thought.

[steel belfry]

I think I've figured it out, I just simply didn't utilize the charge well enough, the carno can knock down any thing smaller than it with a long charge which I didn't know sadly, and I figured the charge did more damage than biting but it in fact does not so it was mostly just my lack of combat knowledge in regards to the carno itself

Something interesting though, the carno can actually stun not only things it's size but anything 50% heavier too, meaning if push comes to shove you could in theory Try your luck on something bigger if absolutely needed

[bitter iris]

Actual I think they got rid of that, longer charge more damage

But a croc that weighs only like 1 ton can have the bite forces of around 300 iirc

[steel belfry]

So carno can't knock things down any more but it can do more damage by runnin longer?

[bitter iris]

Also hit boxes are very funky at the moment so you could have just not been hitting it

[bitter iris]

What? It can still knock things down but I’m pretty sure the longer you run doesn’t effect damage or stun anymore

[steel belfry]

Oh I see sorry, got a little confused for a second

[bitter iris]

Your good

[junior jay]

Also deinos cant get knocked down so...

[steel belfry]

I see yeah then I was just wasting time I could've probably won a biting competition

[finite shadow]

@stray mountain this is how allos pin currently works

[stray mountain]

What about Omnis?

Maybe it could also have this with stamina, except the stamina ramp up doesn't stop

[finite shadow]

I’m not sure about omnis, if the stamina did ramp up the pin damage would have to as well as it currently maxes at 50 for an adult allo and imo that’s too little

[junior jay]

#balance-feedback message
What

[dusky surge]

I’m not sure what’s confusing about it

[frosty orchid]

"The actual sense" needs elaboration maybe.

Argument in favor of the leg break in terms of "actual sense": The Rex is mounted upon the prey, pressing down on them so that they can't move, and it takes their legs' strength to even remain standing/upright and not belly-pressed to the ground. Plus their instincts are to move away, so, their feet are clambering on the ground against the force of the stronger Rex who's pushing them back down, resulting in damage to the things that keep them upright - their legs.

Argument against: The animation is viewed from over the shoulder and looks more or less like the Rex is hunched over the prey chewing on their back/spine, so it takes a bit of a leap in logic to see that causing the effects of a leg break.

[faint robin]

Rex is not stronger than trike

[frosty orchid]

Okay so then that's a case for Crush's leg break having a comparative weight threshold.

[limber delta]

@steel belfry carno has decent playrate and it can kill adults easily up to about teno/cera where it can still win but is at a slight disadvantage. Why are you playing carno and complaining about its strength? Strength was never the reason to play carno.

You don't want to play carno. You want to play a 56km/h cera.

teno is prob the only dino larger than a utah actually in need of a buff rn and only to its prime weight. Everything else either needs bug fixes (dilo venom and allo's pounce) or nerfs (rex's entire kit)

[steel belfry]

Honestly the main issue was that I had no idea deino's, no matter the size, could not be knocked over by the charge of Carno

[limber delta]

that's just a deino thing i think, which is very weird but eh

but yeah sometimes I'll play carno just for the speed, it's fun asf to be able to pick your fights even when 100%

[steel belfry]

Oh I agree, honestly I was just so confident that since the Deino was so much smaller than me it must be able to be knocked down so I just thought oh carno must not be good, now I know its amazing and I've lost very few fights so far

[limber delta]

deinos have a very deceptive weight for their size at smaller sizes. A prime raptor won't be able to pin one with a smaller visual size simply because the deino weighs more than it does

carno's stuns are weight dependent so that'll be why I assume

[steel belfry]

Yeah so far the only thing you shouldnt try to kill 1 on 1 is a t Rex, a Deino, a Diablo, a trike, or a stego but basically everything else is free eats

[junior jay]

This "animal" would get cooked #phase-three-requests message
@hallow jungle
1.1 tons and 27-30 speed it cant run it cant fight if some thing big comes around
Also devs tried to make a titanoboa before but it didnt work out

[hallow jungle]

That's why he would be a "water type" dino. Anyway, it's just my vision of how he could look in the game, and if he were to make it into the game, he could have different stats. For example more weight.

[junior jay]

Doupt it would be heavier than a deino tho

[hallow jungle]

Real life weight was 1,1tons. But for game he can be heavier. Thats true

[indigo rain]

I think ramp up already exists on both allo and omni yeah. I recall Dondi talking about it on stream ages ago, and tap-pouncing also isn't a thing now because of it.

[carmine shell]

@slim dragon why do u think my balance feedback is wrong

[slim dragon]

Because I think raptor should die from pouncing a trike's head

[carmine shell]

i asked for your feedback 🙏

[slim dragon]

The brain isn't a raptor's only vital organ

And trike is way too far beyond omni's league to warrant it surviving such a dumb mistake

[indigo rain]

"It should only be fatally wounded" = the raptor is dead. Fatal = dead. Doesn't matter if you flail around for 5 seconds after getting your stomach impaled; its just quicker and easier to send them to the respawn screen.

[limber delta]

maybe they meant like a fatal amount of bleed (which can only be survived by thrombrosis)

either way... it wouldn't really save you from a trike anyways since you'd still get stunned in front of something that can one shot you 😭

[indigo rain]

Yep

[carmine shell]

but think about the unfair desync...

and plus what if the trike was on the verge of death anyways

and plus what if you were a pro prime and rather would realistically get a leg break plus 50% of hp gone if you landed on a trike head

[hasty coyote]

the game shouldnt be balanced around bugs
plus you knew the risks of fighting a trike and could have decided not to. Its over 10x your size and would 1-tap you with a basic attack for landing on its face anyway.
plus its only 1/4th of its body that would cause the issue, and thats the danger zone anyway. You still have 3/4ths of a 9-12 ton behemoth as a tiny raptor that you can easily reach and pounce on.

[carmine shell]

this is true ^

[hasty coyote]

I do understand it can be annoying, but the issue is caused by nothing more than mistakes and hubris.

[limber delta]

trike is honestly so massive that if you pounce behind it, anything short of 100ms is saving you from any desync of pouncing on its face

desync is moreso a problem in shorter, harder to react damage sources such as alt bites

[carmine shell]

honestly what happened to those epic raptor dodges when in isla spiro times, you'd watch vids of extremely sweaty solo raptors destroy a bunca carnos with like their uncomprehensibly milimeter precise dodging

these updates truly killing the game because of how many bugs 😭

a wise programmer told me before its near impossible to program a reliable code foundation that surely wouldnt break after updates

[stark ether]

Man those videos were my favorite, a lone utah slowly, expertly, whittling down a carno over like 10 minutes, avoiding death by like an inch dozens of times because of how precise the movement was.

And now it’s just “I pounce in the general direction of the enemy” and they either win or lose because no carnivores use their basic attacks anymore.

Everyone has crazy pinslop, knockdown, or stuns.

[keen plover]

Yeah not the game for that anymore

[icy blaze]

@tardy peak #balance-feedback message yes please!!! whilst tenos kick hitbox is so terrible small that you cant hit something even when its standing inside of you sometimes. teno seriously needs some love desperately

[limber delta]

It's not just bugs but also the devs have in their not so wise balance logic decided to make pretty much everything be near unpunishable and/or one shot you

Back in U6, carno turned much slower, had worse stamina, and had to actually charge up its stun by accelerating. Now? Carno can literally out-turn a prime raptor trying to loop around it while at the same time spamming headbutt stuns in place with such a high attack speed the raptor literally can't punish it.

And that's just one example. Cera now instant-vomits raptor in a single bite, maia's back kicks can ora ora ora so if it misses it can just throw out another with no safe gap. Rex has a stun on an alt attack (used to be pachy exclusive), stego has power swing (as if it wasn't op enough), dibble and trike both have incredibly strong stuns that true combo into an attack that almost always one shots anything barely smaller.

They dummified the game and nerfed most of the combat skill out of it. Now it's just 'if I'm bigger, I win'.

I've seen roblox dino sims with more skill.

[hasty coyote]

Its that plus they added systems to make attacks hit more consistently than just whiff, so dodging is not nearly as easy.

Also rex's alt stun is technically not a standard alt attack, so its still pachy exclusive. Rex has the standard alt+lmb alt attacks, but the stuns are alt+rmb.

[limber delta]

I consider rex as having 2 alt attacks.

[hasty coyote]

now that I'm thinking about it, maia stole the stuns on alts first, since its quad alts can stun at the back angles

[limber delta]

that's moreso just a behind attack that uses alt as a keybind. Not an actual alt attack (where the body turns)

vs maia, you expect the back to be a dangerous spot. Not pachy

same with stego swing. It doesn't actually do a 180 to attack you, it's moreso just a convenient bind for a different attack

[pastel ferry]

nerf rex

[stark ether]

Most fights are all about doing X thing that guarantees a kill

Stun attack into instant kill attack

Fracture them so they’re helpless

Grab them

Pounce them

Pin them

Bite them to kill them with clones(?)

What happened to just… hitting them while they try and hit you?

I miss when dodging and aiming mattered more than once or twice during a fight

[frosty orchid]

Yyyea agreed on the "where's the FIGHT?" sentiment.

It's like a card game where you only get a hand of three or four cards versus seven. And two of your opponent's cards are often pounce and pin||slop||.

I really like the Maia brawling because it's so multifaceted. Wish I could play a carnivorous/omnivorous brawler in the same vein.

[rain edge]

I think the hitbox should still work while being pounce, as a stego i can clearly see my tail hitting my assailant, it's just doesnt make sense to go through them without any damage, this will also reduce people simply being pin slop

[finite shadow]

Why would you punish the allo or Omni for using their ability successfully, this would also go against pounces whole thing of being a safe way to apply bleed to larger animals.

Just raising the grapple threshold would be a way better option

[frosty orchid]

@vestal pewter When drinking, position the length of your body parallel with the water's edge, so you can run away quicker, rather than having to turn first lest you be running into the water.

There are also many safe ponds. Safe, because no slow arse deino is waddling out to them; they prefer contiguous waterways.

I will eventually, but I have never died to a deino. I treat the interconnected freshwaters like death soup.

[limber delta]

and most if not all of these things are near unpunishable or avoidable

Take allo pin for example. Wanna know what happens when it misses? Maybe a huge stamina cost, huge cooldown? I mean, it's a literal one-shot attack, surely it has a huge cost right? Nope, 1 second endlag and like 5% stam and then it can just whip another one out.

Bigger dinos need much worse frame data and turn so they can actually be punished. I'd expect this frame data from a raptor, pachy, herrera, troodon etc, but a 3T+ allo? wtf?

[twilit seal]

The only dino thats left is cera rn due to its agility and simplicity

I mean the whole pvp environment got “worse” and simplified not only cuz everything has some sort of cc now, but also cuz desync has gotten so much worse over the years

[limber delta]

even cera is in a pretty bs spot due to bile being very weight/size based and vomit acting like soft cc. One bile m1 is enough to 'stun' a utah, and then you can follow up with more bites to guarantee either a kill or an out of commission utah

in the past it was universal across all weights and based only on hunger. So if you were smaller than cera and had full food you could actually afford to fight traditionally

[frosty orchid]

The case described is pouncing into a tail swing which is exactly the kind of thing that should be swatting away pouncers.

[finite shadow]

They said while being pounced ie the allo being latched already, the allo not being hit while pouncing into a tail hit sounds like a desync issue and personally every time I’ve seen someone try to do that they have been hit by the stego

[frosty orchid]

Oh I thought they meant tailslapping as the pouncer is still airborn.

[tropic falcon]

@winter night look up Vulnona map

[finite shadow]

Or just learn the map

[dusky surge]

if only

[winter night]

@tropic falcon thank you so much.

[junior jay]

#balance-feedback message
@glass harbor
You would and should loose that fight even if rex was nerfed

[autumn zephyr]

#balance-feedback message
I feel like just increasing dilo's agility is such a bandaid fix, the new venom effects we ve seen on troodon could just work better on dilo, just make dilo a lot harder to see, old nightvision was perfect for dilo, so maybe that kind of envenomated view could help dilo a lot

[wispy condor]

<@&933486433342222376>

[autumn zephyr]

What are the baby para reacts for 😭

[steep otter]

Why does rex still is busted

[hasty coyote]

Because they haven’t done any balance changes. Plus they did say they wanted to fix most of Rex’s bugs before balancing it (hopefully that means they are balancing it in qa before the ht and not after)

[glass harbor]

hence why i said, "ik im 1v4ing rexes"

[tardy wind]

#balance-feedback message @pure kite

The hit reg unfortunately has nothing to do with the hitboxes being a problem, if you test it on good connection they function as they should. It comes from desync on the player’s end. It’s just typically noticed more on creatures like Pachy and Stego because of the way their attacks work with having a lingering hitbox through the animation

[broken walrus]

#balance-feedback message

@open ingot I agree with most of this tho removing the leg break over all is a tad much. While I think it DEFINITELY needs some hard nerfing I don’t think it should be completely removed. I think making the push a leg break would be cool kinda like if you feel and tripped and sprained your leg only this time someone shoved you hard as hell. However I do agree that leg breaks causing most dinos to become utterly helpless is a bit much. This includes the glass bones debuff. I think you should still be able to do your full moveset but have some sort of set back. Like for example carnos can trip and fall. Or less speed = less dmg and or turn rate. Trikes are much slower or cost more stam to use big moves etc. but as for leg break = your 100% screwed esp as a dino that can’t flee makes it a tad over powered.

[open ingot]

Im glad you responded I did have other reasons as to why I want this change though. I didnt mention smaller dinos for reason tho because the leg break from doesnt really affect them in anyway. If a large Rex were to chomp a carno its likely going to die instantly or be pinned. Leg break doesnt matter much if your dead in 2 seconds. This is was also a push to help the newer apexes to added so they dont have to deal with the same issue the apexes now do. It will help the longevity of the game in the end and as it stand Rex truly does not need the ability to break your leg. Its more than fast enough to catch you via its trot or ambush speed, ridiculous damage output, and is an absolute tank. The only I could see Rex keeping it Leg break is if it got a large overhaul on its own and it works differently and in my opinion that's not worth the work as removing it entirely from Rex would just be easier considering it so strong already.

This also comes from another standpoint as for people constantly complain the Stego and Trike need more fracture resist when thats not the root issue Body fracture is managable to play with while leg fracture just arent doable. This would enable Trike players to play and fight more often as it stand most of them just hide their back to a wall when 2 rexes show up not because their bad but just because but just cause what other choice do they have?

For the most part we agree though from what I see I would really like to see this change go through I really believe it will help the current apexes in the game.

[broken walrus]

Yea I agree with most you said. It was definitely a problem in legacy even with having giga spino trike etc. tho i believe your right it may be for the prep of other apexs. That being said we aren’t getting any new crazy apexs soon unless you somehow counted the quetzal. As for the removing of leg break the only issue I see is

A: the complaints from rex players

B: the re-coding that would need to be done as remember packy also has leg break capabilities tho not HALF as annoying thank god (used to be hell on earth during release)

[open ingot]

I agree with the coding but as for the complaint from the Rex players is just a silly thing. Rex losing leg break will only force the players to play better as they don't crutch on the mechanic of breaking the leg for another player. Mind you it will make for more interactive and fun fighting between Stego, Rex, and Trike. Its much better than leg break simulator. we dont speak on old pachy please bad memories :(

[junior jay]

#balance-feedback message
@open ingot
I dont agree with this cause rex wouldnt have a chance against trike and stego if it had no leg break
It is literally what rex was made to do and it's rex's win condition for those fights along with pin

[open ingot]

Cant agree, Rex's damage output is more than effective enough to get the job done saying they dont stand a chance doesn't make sense, body fracture will still be a problem so its not like a stego or trike can chase them down. You don't need a leg break at all to kill stego or trike. Especially if you have a duo who can help you stun lock them using your shove which unfortunately people dont know that is something you can do.

[junior jay]

Against 2 rexes you should loose if your playing trike, steg
And both stego and trike can dish out More damage per second

And for that "stun lock" its either a bug or it isnt real

[open ingot]

I still dont see your point rex can still 1v1 a stego just fine without any help removing leg break would jist make the fight last longer and not make the stego defenseless, and as for Rex v Trike sparring still massively favors Rex while rex also massively outspeeds and turns Trike if you use your shove while on a trike side it stuns them and you can get free bites. I fail to see how it makes Rex stand no chance against them?

[junior jay]

Sparring doesnt favor rex at All trike has the ability to go out of spar when it wants to rex doesnt

[junior jay]

Maybe i wouldve agreed with this 2 months ago when update dropped but not anymore People have learned how to play trike now
Trike is just harder to learn but when you get good with it almost no rex is beating you even In its current state

Same applys to stego

[open ingot]

I cant agree Rex still does ridiculous damage output, all you need to do is bait out trike and stego while they are body fractured and play around wittling their stamina away. Saying rex doesnt stand a chance against Trike and Stego without it tho doesnt make sense, a body fracture is still a massive problem especially for stego. I havent played with spar for a while so if they did change it ok thats fine but Rex still out turns, speeds, out stams trike.

The real issue is that leg break that a thing Rex crutches on to hard when in reality its more than well equiped to kill the other apexes with out it.

[junior jay]

Does not out stam trike and it is Kinda fair to say that rex doesnt stand a chance i got a lot of experience fighting with apexes

[open ingot]

If you use rexes op trot stam it very much does outstam them. if you got experience explain your point cause anyone can say they have a lot of experience with apexes

[junior jay]

Trotting has nothing to do with stam...

Dont know what there really is to explain rex just gets destroyer without bonebreak

[open ingot]

it literally has the fastest stam regen in the game?

[junior jay]

Yes but that still has nothing to do with trotting

[open ingot]

You seem to no have any evidence to back that up.

[junior jay]

What evidence do you have?

[open ingot]

i explained in it my discussion

[open ingot]

and elaborated on my reasons to why the change should happen if you look at the discussion i had with Monti

#balance-feedback message @carmine shell thats fair to say but isnt the core issue as to why the change should happen the speed isnt one of the problems, the removal of all of trikes attacks and the mobility of the stego is largly the issue

[junior jay]

I didnt find any "evidence" In your feedback

[open ingot]

My evidence is that the effect of leg break to trike and stego. trike loses all of its attacks and spar mode while stego loses all of its mobility i explained that it also makes rex 1v1s a race to who can break eachothers leg first which is frankly very boring. wht other evidence do you wanna know if you have any question. Mind im not biased toward nerfing rex into oblivion

[junior jay]

so your saying rex v rex would be more fun if it was literally who got the first bite 😑

stegos mobility isnt its strenth its strenth comes from the powerswing

and on top of all this leg break isnt even free you will likely get hit when trying to apply it

[open ingot]

no because it would largely depend on who stuns and who doesnt, in general Id rather if rexes didn have to cannibalize as much but they still do. its better altrnatuve than break leg first

[open ingot]

when fighting rex thats all it needs

[limber delta]

Rex’s overpowered state is more about its matchup vs the entire roster than just stego/trike specifically. In fact stego actually does pretty good vs rex.

Main issues that make rex far too good rn is its diet, speed, agility, frame data and food drain

[open ingot]

thats if you get hit play correctly and bait and youre going to succedd i promise you bleed doenst matter much if you break the leg of the stego and just heal it off and go and finish it off

[junior jay]

frame data?

[limber delta]

A game term for what happens each frame of an animation including hitboxes, wind-up and end-lag

[junior jay]

good stegos will play the bleed

[junior jay]

ok

[limber delta]

For example Rex’s crush bite only having like 40 frames of end-lag if it misses is frame data

[open ingot]

you do understand that fighting a stego is supposed to be hard right just cause your a rex doesnt mean it should be easy to kill stegs or trike and leg break just does make it easy. as it stand rex can make plenty of mistakes and stego and not be punished for it because of stego having its leg broken same with trike

[limber delta]

Point is, leg break is one of the least problematic things about rex rn, and removing or nerfing it specifically will do next to nothing to make rex balanced

[junior jay]

i agree

[open ingot]

How is that the least problematic explain?

[junior jay]

thats why i dont agree with the remove leg break its whats rex was meant to do and it just kinda sucks to remove a whole part of its kit just for balance

[open ingot]

It still has a really strong shove and body fracture and one of the highest dmg outputs in the game. Rex simply doesnt need leg break to say it does without good reason is just silly. And sometimes things do need to be removed to balance out the game. If a rex cant play around not having leg break its a massive skill issue.

[junior jay]

first of all you clearly never played rex/played against good players second shove is only usefull in rex 1v1s and the damage output is only "high" cause its an apex its still 1 of lowest apex damage outputs

even deino wins rex in a facetank competition

[open ingot]

Alt shove does 300 dmg. And i have played rex i use to regularly.

[junior jay]

300 damage for 9.3 ton dino is very little

[open ingot]

What prime dieno does not win bite force is much 700 on prime rex💀

[open ingot]

It adds up quickly and shove is meant to stun so you can get free bites

[junior jay]

it doesnt have a higher bite force but it wins the fight (facetank) due to higher weight and dps

[junior jay]

crush stuns too and does 1k dmg

[open ingot]

Yea ik but shove is just much faster and crush is easily telegraphed and can be countered you cant predict the shove

[open ingot]

Prime rex bite force is 700 and also dieno is heavier than rex at prime?

[junior jay]

crush comes out faster giver more momentum and is just better

[junior jay]

yes prime deino heaviest "dino" rn

[open ingot]

Yea cause its spammable its cooldown is to short but stun often times will give you free bite maybe even 2 which adds up over more than a 1k dmg

Hyperbolic hungry rex at peak prime does over 800 dmg if you didnt know

[junior jay]

you know for some playables you can double crush right? so that would be 2k dmg

[open ingot]

What playables?

[junior jay]

for example trike

[open ingot]

Ok but it takes more stam to use and is explain why rex should lose leg break even more. If you can gaurantee leg break that quickly thay shouldnt it make sense that rex doesnt need it?

[junior jay]

same stam for heavy shove

[junior jay]

no if they just increase crush cooldown it would be fixed

[limber delta]

Check the thing I replied to

That p much sums it up

[open ingot]

Rex isnt supposed to have a match up against most of the roster, carno and cera shouldnt be fighting a rex simply put. and leg break doesnt apply to them because if they can be pinned already they will just die instantly. take it as the same logic like this a beipi shouldn't try and fight a prime omni thats just dumb idea same thing for 90% of the roster Rex is in its own tier of its own. i agree tho its diet and its speed is definitely a problem its to easy to grow and way to fast for its size but ignoring leg break and saying its not problematic is just not true because all i hear are complaints from players that trike and steg need more frac resist when the core issue itself is just the leg break itself

[junior jay]

what about sub rex it doesnt 1 shot carnos/ceras

[open ingot]

depends what sub if the rex is 4 tons it will likely just pin it instantly. and even then a sub rexes dmg is comparable to 400 to 500 dmg is completly depends on the size of the sub rex. even then you dont balance around sub adults it doesnt make sense to. balance should always be balanced around the adult version of the dinos.

[junior jay]

you spend more time growing than being adult nowadays why should balance be focused on adults

[open ingot]

i mean thats true but the devs have always balanced around the adult versions, it wouldnt make sense to make a large balance change based off something like a 60% maia or dieno jsut doesn make sense. unless that portion of the creature life has drastic change for ezample 40% rex as high speed running 56Kph they would could balance thier otherwise thats just to much work to balance off the not grown version

[hasty coyote]

You do still have to balance around them in certain instances where they become too powerful. Tbh there’s a stage of juvie Rex that def could use a nerf.

Namely where it’s 1 ton and nearly 60kph

[open ingot]

yeah but its a temprory time and isnt reall problematic cause you grow out of it.

[junior jay]

if the pin dmg values were correct this wouldnt be a problem

[limber delta]

Well duh a cera shouldn’t facetank a prime 88% rex that’s not my point. Leg break is like the smallest issue with rex rn compared to so many other things it has. Only stego and trike care about leg break and stego barely does.

[open ingot]

the leg break literally affects the way all the apexes fight how is that a small issue?

[junior jay]

accept deino

[open ingot]

deino can sit its fat ahh in the water lmao

[junior jay]

this is the 1 thing i can agree with you

[limber delta]

Because, for example, if rex couldn’t literally loop around a trike because it’s that fast and agile then trike wouldn’t get leg broken in the first place.

[open ingot]

if trike couldnt be leg broken anyway it wouldnt die like a poor helpless toddler, tho i do think trikes turn could use a decent buff because it is werid how an animal with 4 legs turns like a damn cinderblock, also realisticly i think i trike is geuninly to meaty to have its leg broken in 3 crushes, body frac is fine is managable leg breaks is just a death sentence

[hasty coyote]

With that same logic any balance issue is temporary because they eventually get frail and slow anyway. The problem being “limited” doesn’t change it from being a problem. It’s effectively random death lighting.

[open ingot]

a prime frail rex is not really that weak compared to its peak prime self and when you make it to that point ur incentivized to entomb if you dont want to then ur choosing to play with a prime frail rex

[hasty coyote]

It still would be, that size is large enough to kill most things it can pin.

[junior jay]

not really juvi rexs crush is very weak

[hasty coyote]

That doesn’t disprove my point

[hasty coyote]

The things it’s pinning are also weak

[open ingot]

what is ur point again?

[hasty coyote]

“Even if a problem is for a limited duration, it’s still a problem”

[open ingot]

ok but is it truly a big enough problem that i needs a balancing around it. and if so explain why?

[hasty coyote]

Yes, because at that speed, it’s able to catch and pin practically any thing smaller than 500kg while being big enough to tank any counter attacks. It’s effectively a carno that 1-taps and has stuns on alts.

All the balancing around it would need is to reduce the peak speed to plateau at like 47 or so. That way it can still be slightly faster than the smaller things, but it’s not going to instantly catch back up even with its bad turning

[limber delta]

Stego, trike and rex all need huge nerfs. But rex needs the most out of the three and trike the least.

[junior jay]

carno that turns like a truck

[hasty coyote]

Imo they all just need adjustments

[hasty coyote]

Doesn’t really matter if it’s immediate death upon being hit, which is a major difference for things around omni size

[junior jay]

same with carno

accept it can turn

[hasty coyote]

Carno 1-taps atm because it can spam the headbutt, which is its own problem. Without that issue they would take like 2-3 hits to kill. And 2-3 compared to 1 is a MAJOR difference.

[junior jay]

carno headbutt isnt a bug rex pin dmg is

[hasty coyote]

It’s not a bug, that I agree, but it’s still a balance issue in many fights atm. And personally, I don’t think 1 problem excuses another.

[open ingot]

idk i dont see it as being that large of an issue. only problem is the rex pin dmg you can still fight 40% rexes as omnis ive done it personally and i wasnt even prime rex as little to no agility at there speed stage and they also cant jump which i feel people never take advanatge off. a 600 kg rex with speed vs a 600 carno the carno will actaully win due to the fact it can stun the rex and the charge does massive dmg. its pretty simple postition your self in a way where you dont allow urself to get pinned

thats the best you can do rn but the pin dmg bug needsa fix getting pinned by a rex only slightly smaller than you dying in 3 seconds doesnt make sense

[open ingot]

stego feels fine only thing i could say is that it does swing to fast but theres counters it, trikes range is defenitly a problem

[limber delta]

not only does it swing too fast but the hitbox size is too large and the cooldown between swings is far too small. It should also do knockback to things smaller than itself

[open ingot]

agreed makes sense not to sure about the hitbox tho i never though it to be that big and if it did id assume it was ping cause i play usually on 100

[livid linden]

this- i was pinned by two allos anyway

either they hacked their weight higher or mias just fine being that much weight

[hasty coyote]

adult allos are 2.7 tons, so if even 1 was on the way to prime, their total would be larger than your weight.

[livid linden]

yeah my point still stands

[hazy abyss]

rex tail riding trike in legacy??

[limber delta]

to an extent yeah, not permanently like with so many tail riding examples but if a rex got perfectly behind a trike it could easily get 4-5 bites in before trike begins hitting it back

[hazy abyss]

an rex will only ride you if you let him do so

its an heavy skill issues

trike turns better than rx with its walk

[limber delta]

that's why i said 'not permanently' and 'if' a rex got perfectly behind a trike lmao not everything's a skill issue

[hazy abyss]

Thats so situational tho

[limber delta]

it definitely isn't just sneak up behind a trike or have a duo to distract it

[hazy abyss]

What if the trike notices you, what if it has an herd, no grass mod, what if the trike sneak up behind you instead??

[limber delta]

now you're making up situationals

[hazy abyss]

Taking specific scenarios for an debate is crazy

[hazy abyss]

You just did it

[limber delta]

do you think utah can tailride an allo?

[hazy abyss]

Utah can ride even an dibble lol

It cant ride few dinos

[limber delta]

"but what if the utah player is blind, deaf, has no arms, no legs, is in a coma, and the allo player notices it, has a megapack, uses esp, and the server has alt turn enabled?????"

that's what you're doing

[hazy abyss]

I didn't imply any problem with the Rex in the scenario; I only said that a Rex tail ride on a Triceratops is impractical and absurd. One isolated case doesn't represent the whole, and that's what I meant with my example.

[hazy abyss]

On this specific scenario it may work

[limber delta]

you literally said skill issue

[hazy abyss]

But it doesnt represent the whole

[hazy abyss]

You allowed him to do an sneak attack on you; you could clearly hear and perceive him, avoiding the attack. You bear some responsibility for letting yourself fall into this situation, and even if this happens, it's a single specific scenario.

[limber delta]

"You allowed the utah to get behind you, you could clearly hear and perceive him, avoiding the attack. You bear some responsibility for letting yourself fall into this situation, and even if this happens, it's a single specific scenario"

so utah can't tailride allo ig

[hazy abyss]

No, you cant avoid an utah tailriding you as an dibble or allo for example, utah got the weapons to ride you regardless of your skill.

He just needs to turn around you till it reaches your tail

https://youtu.be/P7Bn6oAZ3uM?si=ltDGLUZFIR2ikXlS

[limber delta]

skill issue. Just don't let it get behind you anyways according to you. Because any scenario where it gets behind you is clearly a skill issue and you should've had grass mod and esp

[hazy abyss]

You cant do anything, its not about your skill.

[limber delta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKOvHaZ8khs

Inb4 reddit response: "b-b-but that trike was so bad! he literally didn't turn for 0.000001 picoseconds at this exact moment!"

[hazy abyss]

The trike hit most attacks so its barelly an tail ride and it is an skill issues because he used the stomp.

You shouldnt use your stomp as an trike

Dibble couldnt do anything on other hand

[hazy abyss]

Shant's stomp still has some use due to its dmg glitch, but its very risky

[limber delta]

almost verbatim what i predicted you'd say lmao also at 0:52 he clearly tail rides for 6 bites and only takes 3-4 just as I stated in my original comment

this wasn't even intended to be a 'debate' I was just teaching you information because you asked a question and you decided to deny it anyways

[hazy abyss]

Again, dont stomp.

[limber delta]

trike didn't stomp here what excuse are you gonna pull now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzkfKEkn7U8

[hazy abyss]

He took 3 secs to turn

[hazy abyss]

For some reason

[limber delta]

"Inb4 reddit response: "b-b-but that trike was so bad! he literally didn't turn for 0.000001 picoseconds at this exact moment!"

lol

[hazy abyss]

He didnt turn for a whole second, if his time reaction is bellow a second maybe he deserved to get tail rided, but he doesnt represent the whole, trike turns faster than rex, rex cannot consistently tailride trike.

[limber delta]

ur argument is that, if one side plays absolutely perfectly, never ever gets taken by surprise, with the help of literal game modifications, and has completely perfectly precise positioning, then it can avoid a rex getting behind it exclusively in a 1v1, therefore rex can't tailride trike because if it ever does, even for a few bites, then it's a 'skill issue' and 'muh scenarios'

I hope you realize how ridiculous your hill you're dying on is.

[hazy abyss]

Im not saying he should've played perfectly, but he's completely incompetent with triceratops, because, for some reason it took him more than a second to react to the rex(while he was alredy on the fight), not saying that you need to be perfect, but getting tail rided by somenthing that turns slower than you is an skill issues.
That would be the same as a Carnotaurus being chased down by an Stego, unless you stand still for about 3 seconds, it simply won't happen, it's not a plausible situation.

[hazy abyss]

Me when I think that fights where the enemy goes AFK in the middle of them are unfair:

[limber delta]

You completely missed the point lol. Still dwelling on about 'muh skill issues' when my point was that's precisely what you're doing.

[hazy abyss]

I'll be direct about the rest of what you said, you don't always need "cheats" to be able to see a T-Rex, hear sounds and observe opponents is literally an essential part of the game, you can't eat bots without it. In both cases, the T-Rex only managed to tail ride because of a mistake by the Triceratops, which, in a general context, is unlikely and almost never happens.
If we consider specific scenarios like 2 Rex, I can also balance the game and consider 2 Triceratops. You always consider situations that favor one side and you picked videos with clear errors.
You don't need to be perfect, just decent.

[limber delta]

"I'll be direct about the rest of what you said, you don't always need "cheats" to be able to see a T-Rex, hear sounds and observe opponents is literally an essential part of the game, you can't eat bots without it."
"What if the trike notices you, what if it has an herd, no grass mod, what if the trike sneak up behind you instead??" -You

"which, in a general context, is unlikely and almost never happens." genuinely made that up. These were the first 2 clips I could find of legacy trike vs rex 1v1s.

"If we consider specific scenarios like 2 Rex, I can also balance the game and consider 2 Triceratops. You always consider situations that favor one side and you picked videos with clear errors." Except this isn't 'does rex always tailride trike perfectly in an equal matchup no matter what?'

You asked, and I quote: "rex tail riding trike in legacy??", as if it was an impossibility, and I answered (boiled down): 'Yes, under certain circumstances'. You ever so wisely stated that those circumstances are indeed circumstances, congratulations.

[autumn zephyr]

How did yall get so deep into an argument about LEGACY of all things 😭 😭

Let legacy die bro as buggy and unbalanced as evrima is it no diffs legacy

[hazy abyss]

1. One thing dont contradict the other
2. Those are old clips and 2 videos doesnt represent the whole player base, in saying that a triceratops can avoid getting tail rided with ease
   3 and 4. fair, but i wasnt questioning if rex was able or not to ride a trike, i was asking where he took that from, besides, i expressed myself poorly

[junior jay]

#balance-feedback message
Many of these things are just not true

[hallow spire]

If ppl want to give their reasons for liking or not liking the idea of trees knocking off omnis, im all ears

[thorn mountain]

I dont like it, but it is a bug and is affecting more things than just pounce, its also affecting herra climbing and pteras falling out of the sky randomly

[limber delta]

kinda crazy that a bug that nearly erases a mechanic unironically makes the game better (besides the other effects) 😭

[thorn mountain]

yea

it will make things like allo, raptor and troodon useless, mainly omni mark my words

allo atleast has claw swipe, omni is based off getting long pounces off, with collisions, it makes it just get knocked off and die immediately

troodon is pounce and jump off so it atleast has something

[limber delta]

kinda off topic but not really but the bug that randomly makes pounce victims not able to buck, usually due to the bind being overriden by things like grazing, IS bad for the game and absolutely needs fixing

[thorn mountain]

but yea, I bet once collision comes back allo will get people asking for buffs

[thorn mountain]

yea, thats due to facechecking or someone trying to jump on the same pounce slot, its not random

[limber delta]

yea there are triggers ofc but in a real in-game situation it's not easily exploitable

you just sometimes get 'oh huh this prime rex that clearly has played the game long enough to know how to buck isn't bucking, guess we get a free win'

[hallow spire]

yep and with ppl standing near hundreds of trees, hunting as an omni would be an even LONGER waiting game trying to bleed something out than it already is. People using the terrain to their advantage is fine but trees is overkill and would make Omnis rarely use their only ability

[limber delta]

@copper beacon ur right that herra has a problem with food, I personally would like it to have significantly reduced food drain, but the reason herras are basically kill on sight for most players is that if you see a herra on the ground and choose to let it live, that could very well come around to bite you in the ass in the very next minute, regardless of if it actually needs to kill you for food to survive or not

[copper beacon]

@limber delta the issue's i always run into is the AI dont path around areas with trees really at all, usually sit around much too far to pounce from a tree and just getting to a tree close enough, even when jumping or crouching almost always spooks the animal. Trying to do all that while other carnovores are around just makes it all so much more difficult.

[limber delta]

only AI that herra can't kill on ground would be galli/teno/dibble, boar/deer/goats it can kill pretty easily no tree needed. But I mean yea other carnis are an issue but they'd kos herras no matter what lol

[copper beacon]

@limber delta well yeah id still expect other carnis to still try to kos a herra, but it would make it less annoying if a single adult herra didnt 2-3 shot adult carnos or allos for their own sake and still somehow get the AI to path towards a herra to reduce starvation frustration.

[fossil wave]

#balance-feedback message

I'm not sold on this but rex has Problems and I think it should eat a TON of stamina and go a lil slower.

If tou want Rex to be Ambush AND Trot down your prey over long distances the way it is right now the game should really make you weigh your options. Is this a "stalk them across the map" encounter, or an ambush, and then force you to commit to one.

Getting rid of murder sprint would certainly force rex into a better position than we're it is now where it's overtuned but nerfing it into a genuine ambush might be the best of both worlds.

[hasty coyote]

@cobalt dagger by the very nature of mixpacks, you can't

any tools you give a species to get around mixpacks will then be used by said mixpacks to catch that species and other species

(not to mention that generally just makes the species op af which then causes other issues)

[dusky surge]

as don so adequately said

lmao

[cobalt dagger]

Not necessarily.

If you give an animal the ability to enter an environment only itself can reside in (ex: dryo's burrow being only for similarly sized creatures, or teno jumping on a rock where only other jumpers can get to it) it evens things out a lot.

I'm sure we can brainstorm something.

Mixpackers COULD keep a herra around just to chase and kill other herras, but... By then, the herra in the tree is more so just having a herra v herra fight and anot a fight with a rex because the rex mixpacking with the herra can't really help or engage.

AKA I'm asking for more escape methods that involve isolating rather than hiding. Terrain swapping and stuff.

[hasty coyote]

then the mixpacks just have species to get into those environments too. Plus theres only a limited amount of said environments, and thus a limited number of species who can access unique ones.

Prime instance is jumping. Say you make cera able to jump now so it can escape mixpacks. Well now the mixpacks can have ceras jump on rocks to force the previously safe species to get down. The more species you add to the new environments just means that the mixpackers have more species that can access those environments, thus making the previously safe species no longer safe.

[cobalt dagger]

Jumping on rocks, entering water or exiting water, climbing trees, flying or gliding, having a higher tolerance for falls and hopping down something, are all great ways of evening things out.

[cobalt dagger]

'Mix packs will just carry those species too.' Check herra explanation.

[keen plover]

That already exists?

[dusky surge]

quetz will exist

[cobalt dagger]

Not enough in my opinion

[dusky surge]

god, generation 1 humans are gonna exist lmao

[keen plover]

You were literally safe. You were hidden though in your example. That's good enough

[dusky surge]

if your solution is to give everyone a unique movement state on the level of herrera, i think you'll quickly find you run out of options fast

[cobalt dagger]

"Prime instance is jumping. Say you make cera able to jump now so it can escape mixpacks. Well now the mixpacks can have ceras jump on rocks to force the previously safe species to get down. The more species you add to the new environments just means that the mixpackers have more species that can access those environments, thus making the previously safe species no longer safe."

I wouldn't give jumping to cera per-say but even IF they did have this, the worst thing the rock-sitters could face is the biggest things that jump, and NOT the rex also mixpacking.

[hasty coyote]

check my latter explanation at the end:
the more species you add to those environments, the more species the mixpackers can choose. Like if they give omni climbing to now escape the new species who can jump, now herreras arent safe in trees. There are a LIMITED number of environements, and the more species you add to those environments the less safe they are.

[hasty coyote]

except most things sitting on a rock can't handle a cera, so they have to try and face tank a cera on a rock (they wont) or they hop down and now have a rex on them

[cobalt dagger]

It's fine if other things climb. It's about having a way to get away from things FAR outside your weight class like Rex

[hasty coyote]

thats the point of speed

[dusky surge]

^

[cobalt dagger]

C arno + Rex

[hasty coyote]

which mixpacks can disregard because they use speed too

[cobalt dagger]

You see a rex can trot up while you're fighting the carno

You're never actually free of the rex.

[hasty coyote]

exactly, the mixpacks can use the EXACT same escape tools you use.

[dusky surge]

no matter what you do, the mixpacks will use the same concepts against you

[keen plover]

😭 What additional tools can you even give cera and teno

You're dead in a field, sorry.

[cobalt dagger]

Yes I know but you really think rexes can't eventually walk and catch up? Rock or terrain swapping, EVEN if they have that same creature on their side, is superior to fleeing.

[dusky surge]

also... swimming/jumping? teno can outswim carno and rex by a country mile, you HAVE the very features you want in that scenario

[vale brook]

i think their swim speed is a decent tool, just conditional

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah actually that's what I'm saying I want more of.

[dusky surge]

and teno's trot easily outpaces both rex and carno

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah that's why Teno is in a better spot

[hasty coyote]

the only difference adding more "escape gimmicks" does is lessen the utility of said escape gimmicks for anything smaller.

[keen plover]

Your complaint was dealing with carno/rex in a field

[cobalt dagger]

I was saying in my feedback 'cera has no options' because I'm not sure what options it has

[dusky surge]

swimspeed, again

[cobalt dagger]

Rex swims really fast, you sure about that one?

[dusky surge]

its incredibly fast in the water, and also, agility, corpse buffs

[keen plover]

Cerato is a marginally slower swimmer than teno

[keen plover]

Cera swims way quicker

[dusky surge]

cera is teno level around

rex also is... moderately fast, i don't think it's that fast at all

[cobalt dagger]

Rex has overtuned agility too and honestly this is a rex problem and not a mixpack problem because rexes catch ceras

[dusky surge]

cera's agility is also better than rex, significantly so

i've tried rex, the agility is way overhyped, nowhere NEAR cera level

i'd say its middle of the pack, the only part of the agility that's insane is the agility it has while murdersprinting imho

[hasty coyote]

I literally ran circles around a sub rex as a sub allo

[cobalt dagger]

I dunno, it doesn't really matter though. The cera has to hold his ground a little at least to fight the carnos and the rex will catch up and most definitely catch him in a crush if he doesn't turn tail and actively flee. I've had rexes chase very close behind my ceras and even though cera can turn fast, you have to get way too close to turn sharp enough to out-turn the rex and you never wanna get close to a rex.

That sounds like a kinda bad sub rex.

[dusky surge]

also i'll be honest, atp, your problem is with prime rex, because for some god-forsaken reason, they made that thing's murdersprint faster than cerato's runspeed, on top of the weight

you don't need to add more features to deal with that, you just need to kneecap the problem at the source. Prime Rex is genuinely abusrd

[cobalt dagger]

Perhaps you're right that it starts with rex.

[dusky surge]

prime rex is genuinely a problem

[cobalt dagger]

Although I would still like to see more things like dryo burrows, aka 'only this size can enter.' Yes mixpacks will just keep small things around, but that's better than fighting the whole mixpack - instead you only have to fight whatever fellow smalls they have.

[hasty coyote]

oh he for sure was flipping out and panicking (since he bled to death not 20 seconds later due to my teamate's bite) but he only managed to get a tail shot. Its def really high for an apex, but its not turbo crazy

[dusky surge]

it is honestly where i think the vast majority of the "rex OP" mindset comes from, because typically rex is well balanced throughout its growth, with only some standout problems (like certain ages of sub-rex being near unescapable for midtiers)

then elder rocks up and it becomes a god

[cobalt dagger]

I don't like that rex is so fast when young that nothing can catch it if they try to chase and kill it

[vale brook]

i kill for the day juvie crush damage becomes not bugged

i KILL

[cobalt dagger]

Other things like steg and trike have to hide as babies because they are neither fast nor strong

But Rex for some reason has the freedom to run away from it's problems when young unlike other things.

[dusky surge]

im honestly chill with it, its whatever

i'd rather nerf rex's hunger and thirst times than nerf its juvi speed

[cobalt dagger]

Even carnos aren't their proper speed as babies, and yet sub/juvi rexes are faster than carnos

[cobalt dagger]

I'd forgive it more if other juvis were given some way to be 'fun' too.

[dusky surge]

make rex forced to engage rather than taking a note from "every other baby bushgrows and AFKs so should rex!!"

[cobalt dagger]

Yes, making everyone else stop bushafk grow is the best solution.

[dusky surge]

rex has the slowest hunger and thirst drain in the entire game and it's absurd

that's why "beach turtle farming" is so viable

[hasty coyote]

thats the core issue with mixpacks, they cover each other's weaknesses. Giving more dinos more tools to "combat" mixpacks only gives those mixpacks more tools. It may help the specific dino you're giving the tools, but now that dino can be used against others. So overall its just a net negative against mixpacks because they will just make the most optimal mixpacks and now stomp things that werent given extra tools.

And if we give the whole roster extra tools, not only will that likely cause some balance issue, we are just back to square one.

[cobalt dagger]

But ultimately no one will stop bushafk'ing until they are able to exit the bush 'safely' aka they have a back-up escape option if they need it.

[dusky surge]

you never have to leave for a drink of water and you barely have to eaat

[hasty coyote]

I think its peak speed needs to plateu or drop sooner, the 1 ton stage moving over 50kph is insane.

[cobalt dagger]

I really don't see how this applies to escape routes or things like dryo burrows.

Dryo burrows - an environment only certain small sizes can enter - of course yes mixpackers will still bring smalls to enter the burrow. But this way at least your troodon or other solo small only needs to fight whatever fellow smalls the mixpack brought with them, and they are totally isolated from the stego the mixpack has.

A burrow does not, that I am aware of, make the mixpack any bigger. Instead, it separates the sizes of creatures, the combat that happens within must only be of a certain size.

Then this applies also to swimmers, jumpers, flyers, climbers.

[dusky surge]

but, again, doesn't this also apply to having speed

[cobalt dagger]

No, it doesn't.

[dusky surge]

you move fast away, only the faster members of the mixpack are there

[cobalt dagger]

Speed does not provide proper isolation.

You can't log out, you can't hold your ground for a little too long if you need to. Sometimes thanks to bleeding it's important not to move too much.

[dusky surge]

it literally does in my experience

i quite literally beat a mixpack of gallis and a stego as a teno because i could just walk away from the stego and pick off the gallis

[cobalt dagger]

Well that makes sense, I agree speed isn't useless.

But I don't think it's as good as a herra climbing a tree.

[dusky surge]

sure, but not everything can have a "climbing tree" alternative

[cobalt dagger]

And yeah I get they're gonna just add herras to the mixpack, but that's fine. The important thing is, now the herra only needs to worry about the fellow herra, and not the stego or the rex.

[cobalt dagger]

I think with enough time and thought, then everything can.

[dusky surge]

i genuinely don't know how you expect that

i think speed is exactly the answer you're looking for

carno can survive literally every and anything because it's faster

[cobalt dagger]

I think speed is one part of the answer

But I certainly don't think it's enough and not as good as a terrain swap

I think some creatures could have better fall damage resistance and use moving down a cliffside as a way to isolate

Maybe then make these isolations follow certain tiers

For example it's too big to jump then let it fall further than a stego can

[dusky surge]

also already the case, lighter creatures can survive larger falls than smaller creatures

so a cera can fall further than a stego or rex

[cobalt dagger]

And yeah I get it, they'll just keep other fall-further'ers, but at least now it doesn't have to fight whatever can't take the fall.

[dusky surge]

and then you can also throw on the fall damage mutation if you really wanna go cliffdiving as a last resort, god knows i do

[cobalt dagger]

The map isn't built to provide the perfect falls that ceras survive but rexes do not. There are some here and there but not like random anti-rex rocks we see on beaches.

[hasty coyote]

burrows may be a different story, since they can only be used defensively, but theres a limited amount of things we can give burrows

swimming has the same issues as speed, its just a different version of speed. For instance, allo has no escape plan atm from like a horde of ceras with a rex chasing it. So they buff allo to now outswim cera, but now that means allo can be used to prevent other dinos from swimming away.

well maybe we give allo the ability to jump then, but now its able to easily bully omnis and other jumping dinos off rocks and now is used to prevent rock camping as an escape.

well maybe we give allo climbing then, welp good luck herreras and hypsis, and anything else on rocks.

perhaps for some reason we allow it to fly... yeah nah.

[dusky surge]

also imma be real

burrows are a plan until megalania exists, that is not an animal you can "reasonably fight" as most burrowers

then megalanias will be on mixpacks as burrow clearers

force the prey out or kill them in their homes

[hasty coyote]

that too, there will be counter measures against burrows.

[dusky surge]

burrows are not meant to be "full safety", they're "extra safety"

same with climbing when stuff like quetz, gen 1, or megalania (again) exists

[cobalt dagger]

Climbing and flying, swimming and running with speed, they're all forms of speed, escape, ect to me.

We just need to make sure they all layer in per power.

If a buncha weaker things gangs up on one stronger thing, well... To be honest I think that's proper. It should take a lot of weaker things to kill a bigger thing, bigger things should be slower but stronger and weaker things faster but, well, weaker.

[hasty coyote]

well meg will likely only climb when small, and its prob not jumping tree to tree as easily

[dusky surge]

or diving, when you're down in the water and oh my god that megalania is back

[cobalt dagger]

Yeah I see this as sort of a balance problem too.

I know BOB isn't perfect but I find myself often very pleased with how well that which cannot run can effectively defend itself.

[dusky surge]

i'm shocked you think BoB does this better lmao

i literally build the "kills this specific animal" build and win

[cobalt dagger]

How much do you play that game? Things have ways to get away.

[dusky surge]

it quite literally gives you the ability to custom construct something like a para remover

[dusky surge]

so does this game, i'd argue in this game moreso

[thorn mountain]

what is even hppening

[dusky surge]

and BoB also gets away with it because you can literally send a turtle into orbit by pressing and holding RMB, which isn't really something you can do here

and that's one example

[cobalt dagger]

I appreciate that, for example, rex can kill a snake but snakes can terrain swap to trees, snakes spit on changs but must ambush them because chang is faster (but if they get the ambush they kill it, and ambushes can be hard so in my eyes that's fair, likewise the rex must ambush the snake on the ground) and the rex mostly needs to get into the water to make chang's life much much harder at killing it, so the chang's goal is to consistently and reliably deal enough chip damage before rex gets into water.

Rex escapes chang with water, snake escapes rex with trees, and chang escapes snake by keeping an eye out. I appreciate that they have a way to live and a thing to fear.

BUT.

Isle has better combat systems and more fun combat.

WHEN IT HAPPENS anyway. Finding players to interact with is really hard because they're all bush-afking.

[hasty coyote]

yeah they are all forms of speed, and as such they have the same issues as speed. All they have to do is get one dino who can do that better than you, and now you can't escape with that method (or other methods depending on the type, like climbing is better jumping and flying is better climbing)

And yeah a bunch of smaller things can take out a bigger thing, but the smaller things already have these escape tools. The ones you would be giving escape tools would be the big things. And the big things would only need these escape tools from the smaller things who can chase it, the same smaller things who need those escape tools to deal with the big thing.

[cobalt dagger]

I agree that BOB is a totally different game and that how they programmed it won't work here. So instead, we have to use pre-existing methods of escape that already exist in the isle, such as swimming and running.

[cobalt dagger]

Just don't give a bigger thing the same escape tool as a smaller thing.

I already mentioned increased fall damage resist. We could also make it so some things jump higher than others. This should probably be the case now; Make rocks that are too tall for a teno to jump on, but a raptor can.

[hasty coyote]

gallus is arguing that there should be tools dinos have to escape from mixpacks. we are arguing that many of them already have forms of this, and adding more only gives the mixpacks more tools to abuse.

[cobalt dagger]

I think you over-simplified my argument and properly simplified your's with that description

I'm arguing that there should be more layers of 'speed' or isolation between tiers. (For the purposes of helping mixpacking be more bearable)

And I'm arguing that instead of shutting down the idea of adding layers we should instead try to brainstorm new layers or concepts before we chuck that out the window.

[hasty coyote]

then what escape tools are you even going to give them that arent already in game? Many small species already have reduced fall damage for their size for that reason.

[hasty coyote]

the issue is theres not really much you can do for the majority of large species, thats the cost of being large, you can fight more often but escape less often.

[cobalt dagger]

Layers of fall damage and layers of jumping come to mind. Burrows of varying sizes could help some too. Mostly I think I want to see fall damage resistance looked into more as a utility in balance or as a 'layer of speed' for non-jumpers.

'Fight more escape less,' indeed, but maia still needs to escape rex. Which is why it runs faster, but my point being is that you still need layers of speed between big maias and even bigger rexes.

Layers of speed could be swim, climb, fly, I don't think maia should fly of course,
But I'm sure we can think of something. I think what I want is for you guys to be like, 'that's a good idea for weaker things to be able to escape bigger things, but we don't have any ideas,' but it kinda sounds like you're saying 'there's no way it could work so your idea is crazy'

Maybe there isn't a way for it to work, perhaps, but I think there is a way.

We could improve upon the concept of certain creatures getting stuck in forests. I kinda don't like that stegos can't FIGHT in forests, I think that's dumb.

But carno used to get kinda stuck on random stuff and loose momentum in forests. I don't want carno to loose momentum in forests. But maia should, maybe? And that could be a layer of speed to help ceras escape maias, for example?

Maybe we could look at a few other creatures who could or should get a little stuck on things, especially for future playables. I hear Para is gonna be fast. Maybe getting stuck on random stuff in forests would help smaller things escape para?

But I used teno and cera as examples of how Teno has way more layers of speed than cera does.

This is good for Teno and teno is actually in a pretty good spot right now, in my opinion.

And I play more teno than cera because of that.

Anyway, I need to go to bed soon. I've more or less made my point, 'we need to think of something' not to claim I have the answer yet or that anyone does.

But I don't think it's good sitting the way it is now and I think that if we richly layer different levels of power with different levels of 'speed' that it will help the mixpacking situation and make things more bearable.

[hasty coyote]

heres the issues I'm seeing, you're trying to make big things be able to escape from smaller things, which causes the following:
1: smaller things now have even less reason to be played, as the ease of escape is one of their main appeals
2: smaller things now have less escape options
3: mixpacks now can cover additional escape options with larger creatures, thus meaning smalls have an even harder time with mixpacks
4: there are a limited number of "layers" you can use, especially before they start becoming way oversaturated, and especially on the larger species, causing smalls' escape gimmicks to be less useful and unique.
5: smalls are now even weaker as larger targets can now use one of their escape gimmicks to just avoid any group of smalls that may be a threat
6: Most species already HAVE weaknesses and lesser "escape gimmicks", but they don't matter against mixpacks because the mixpacks can just use them too.

If you're just trying to make small things have an easier time escaping big things, they already can easily, because many of them have speed and escape gimmicks. But it doesnt matter because an even tinier thing has speed and escape gimmicks against the small creature, which means mixpacks just use them to keep up. The only 3 outliers are rex (because prime is just op and goes too fast), maia (who burns stam really quickly, swims very slow, cant track, and can be juked), and carno (most of whose targets have full on escape mechanics, and carno can't swim)

[junior jay]

#balance-feedback message
@cobalt dagger
Its like not even possible To balance the game around mixpacking
Theres too many combinations and balance shouldnt be made around People teaming

Its just not good game desing

[bitter iris]

First it’s unrealistic to not get knocked off by a tree/rock. Also for beginners who don’t know how to get them off have been dying from not knowing to buck (mainly a tutorial problem tho).

Raptor is really strong right now, he has absolutely crazy damage and almost no stam drain. Before when he could get knock down by trees he had to watch his stam, and be ware of his surroundings. It would be even a risk to change position while pounced. When things were camping (which not everything does) you can wait out their water/hunger or just chip away at them. Watch their heads and when they turn get a hit or a pounce. Old raptor was just better I can say that as I used to be a raptor main and others raptor mains agree. I think the best thing for raptor right now is to increase stam cost, lower damage and buff bleed for pounce also buff its normal attack speed. Remember as raptor you can always change to the back slot to not get knocked down by trees.

Allo will be fine using his claw attack. @hallow spire

[warped zenith]

apart from being a "alcornoque", u are new, you cant throw utahs or allos with the trees bcs it is very bugged, they had to deactivate it and fix it (nothing after months xD), but utah has had the pounce bug since it came out, for as much as it is a complicated mechanic, don't put a mechanic in allo that doesn't work well, also the last thing u said is that u have no idea about the game x2

[cobalt dagger]

Goodmorning.

Well, I thought I was understood, but clearly I was not. Let's go down the list...

1. I already said I don't want to make medium things escape in the same ways or with as many ways as small things. If a small thing escapes by climbing it's imperative a bigger thing is not given that same method of escape. It's really frustrated to describe that this is not my goal more than once and to have you continue to claim that I want things to have the same levels of escapability when that's not what I'm asking for.

I mentioned/asked for different ways of escaping more than once. And then, sure, let the smaller things use ALL the ways for all I care, just so long as levels of power are also given different layers of escape or speed.

2. Falls into point 1. Let cera or whatever do something that isn't the same as the other smalls and we're peachy. I already described this more than once though and It's really really frustrating to have to state that this isn't my perspective over and over. 'What should cera do then?' I don't know for sure but I bet you with enough time and thought we can find something for cera-sized things. Yes, it already has some options like swimming, but I'm saying that we should layer these levels of escape more deeply. That means providing more areas where they could swim to or use swimming, or maybe making more of the map have variable cliff heights that species of different weights could hop down and not be followed by the bigger thing who can't survive the same fall.

Part of this, a large part of this, falls into map design. But because I'm asking for terrain-swap forms of escapability for species of different power, everything involving terrain swap will require map design to cater to it.

3. Mixpacks will be able to do everything they can do, yes. But like I already said before, I can't stop the mixpack from mixpacking with a herra, but at least now the solo herra only has to fight climbers and not climbers + rex.

[cobalt dagger]

And only fighting the climbers is a huge improvement over having to fight the whole mixpack.

That's why we're looking at forms of terrain swap escape options for creatures of different sizes. They should not all have the same method and smaller things should have more methods than bigger things, but by giving smaller thing terrain swap options it puts mixpacks in more situations where 'well, one of us can climb the tree but not the whole mixpack' and effectively isolates them in a way relative to combat.

I already described this though and it's really frustrating to describe it again. It all boils down to, you think I'm saying this: 'Cera should have escape options like raptor does!"
But what I'm actually saying is this: "Cera should have a way to escape rex and carno that is different than the way raptor does so that raptor can still escape cera"

Please address my actual point rather than assuming I want to give all non-apexes the same escape options.

[spiral ledge]

claw atack of allo good?? pls tell me where you buy the porros pls

[cobalt dagger]

I agree there's limited layers of escape, and that's why I'm calling us to try and think of more layers. In fact I think speed is currently really tight with only super slight differences in speed between some playables and I see this as a problem too.

Like, some species SHOULD have close speeds, like cera and teno. But raptor and cera, raptor needs to leave cera in the dust.

The speed difference between mudersprint rex, allo, cera, teno, diablo, and anything between rex and cera, the speed there is super tight. We need to space them out a little, by 3-4 full points of speed instead of 0.5 speed differences. The speed difference between raptor and cera I believe is a good sweetspot for things of different power levels - Cera is still fast, just can't catch raptor. Teno and cera are also perfect because they're the same size, so they don't need the speed difference.

But anyway. I'm making a call to brainstorm new layers of escape options. Then, permit smalls whatever escape options; they will get what the mediums have, and more unique only to them. Then, give mediums some (but not all) of what the smalls have (So that smalls can still escape mediums but mediums can escape apex), and then apexes don't get to jump or climb or whatever usually.

This is highly simplified as playables aren't really so cut and dry as 'small-medium-apex,' so we need more layers specifically so that we can better match the many layers of power that exist in the isle.

But largely. What I really really want, is more escape based on terrain swap. Things like 'you just can't climb this tree.' Because this puts mixpacks in a situation where only a certain amount of their members can engage with you, and you have the freedom to log out if they are camping your tree. Running away doesn't always give you the freedom to log out, especially if they have esp.

[bitter iris]

What? Little confused from your feedback. But from what I’ve heard trees stopped working from a bug not just being disabled. He has said it is an annoying fix but he found the issue. If your argument is that getting thrown off by trees is buggy well bucking is even more buggy. I agree at pounce on allo is bad.

[cobalt dagger]

5. This is just repeating everything else said in 1 and 2.
   I already said I don't want mediums to be able to do everything smalls do, and I 100% want smalls to have their own unique gimmicks.

'If we don't give mediums what the smalls have, then what do the mediums get?' That's why I'm saying we should brain storm. I've had a few ideas but I bet you other people can think of more. Ohhh, adjusting trot speeds and putting some more mud flats or shallow water on beaches for example, maybe we could design some mediums who can trot faster and trot away if they get to any expanses of shallow water like the beach. Like, I know we already have that, but what if we balanced things with that in mind as an option for one of the mediums?

Balancing with this in mind is what I'm talking about when I say 'balance with mixpacking in mind.'

[bitter iris]

Honestly I like claw attack, as an allo main I think it’s pretty balanced. Pouncing and bite speed are the annoying attacks.

[cobalt dagger]

Yes the game devs are already trying to do what I'm describing, which is give smaller things a way to escape. And yes, mixpacks just carry one of those species with them. But it really does help if you can climb the tree and the rex can't. The mixpack still has a mixpack but fighting tree-only things is better than fighting the whole mixpack. So, rather than saying 'it doesn't matter,' I would say 'It doesn't get rid of the problem but it helps a bit.' A rex-sized bit of help because a rex-sized problem is lost when you climb the tree. Or stego sized, depending on what the mixpack has.

But yeah the devs are already aware of what I'm describing and trying to do it. What I'm asking for that's different is to think of new options so that mediums can have ways to escape DIFFERENT from the smalls.

I really really hope this all makes it clear and you don't continue to assume that I want cera to jump or otherwise have the same exact escape options as raptor and herra. I want them to have different ones, and then 'what would they be?' I recommend it as food for thought for us to think of. Fall damage resistance and more access to cliffs of perfect heights to use fall damage difference on the map, or shallow water on beaches to benefit trotters and then balance trot speeds accordingly, I think these are good places to start for the medium species.

[cobalt dagger]

" But it doesnt matter because an even tinier thing has speed and escape gimmicks against the small creature, which means mixpacks just use them to keep up."

And this is why running speed alone is not enough.
This is why you need a terrain swap.

Yeah, they can keep up, trot you down with the bigger things, never let you log out. But if you climb a tree, only the thing your own size can get you, and it doesn't matter if the stego walks up to the tree, there's nothing he can do to engage with you, and if you kill all the smalls they send your way by some miracle then the mixpacking stego has to just watch as you log out.

Meanwhile running away doesn't let you do this because of your own description in quotes, and that's why I'm asking for us to think of new terrain swap methods. Maybe we could make more little islands out in the ocean for swimmers like cera to swim between and then log out on?
Or we could make trees that let cera-sized things slip through but not prime-rex-sized-things because they're too close together.
Add more cliffs that ceras can survive the fall but not a stego.
Islands that a cera has the stamina to swim to but a stego or rex with full stamina will drown before it reaches the island.

This is just me throwing out ideas and brain storming. I'm sure given more time I could think of more, and I bet we'd have even more if we all pitched in and tried to think of good balanced ideas.
Instead, I feel frustrated because I feel like you're shutting down this concept before giving it consideration and/or continously misunderstanding me and that's really annoying. Probably not doing it on purpose of course but it's still frustrating nonetheless.

---

And then yeah a huge problem for all of this is also just how OP Rex is in terms of denying other species' escape/survival options. Faster than xyz while also stronger or, able to out turn and sit behind trike, ect.

[cobalt dagger]

People will team and if you don't take that into consideration when designing something (ex: they let things eat eggs and then let parthenogenesis but didn't realize stego mixpackers would lay eggs for their rex friends, then they made a mixpack-based balance by removing nutrients from eggs for that purpose. So to say, the devs already balance the game in response to mixpacking.) then you're gonna have huge problems.

Mixpacking is gonna exist and balancing around it is the right thing to do in my eyes or else well, then you'll have herbis feeding rexes with eggs and whatever.

[ruby ledge]

the main issue in my opinion is that no matter what you do or give to help regular players, you also give it to people who choose to mixpack. no way around that.

[junior jay]

i meant balancing fights not growing/survival

[cobalt dagger]

Balancing fights follows the same logic but it's not that hard, just make sure smaller creatures have terrain swap options faces against bigger creatures.

For example of what I want, Raptor can jump on rocks. Make sure bigger things can't - this is part of mixpack balancing in mind, knowing they'll just use a bigger thing to jump on the rock to kill the raptors or chase them down. When a raptor is safe on a rock, the stego and whatever can't trot it down or use esp to find it while it's logging out, the raptor is Just SAFE until the mixpackers send another jumper up.

But at least now the raptor only has to fight the other jumper, and the stego still can't really engage unless the raptor gets down. This is a terrain-swapping method of escape.

The devs already balance this like this too, because they already do keep in mind mixpacking when balancing, or usually do but fix it later if they find a problem sometimes.
For eggs as well as combat.

But I'm asking, in my feedback, for us to think of more terrain swap options or making terrain swapping more accessible for those who can do it. Ex: Cera can swim pretty good, we should add some islands that ceras can swim to but stegos with full stam will drown before they reach it. Then ceras can flee and try to logout on this island. If the mixpack has ceras they may send them too but at least now you only have to deal with the ceras and not the ceras AND their stego friend.

Terrain swap options break up species.

Climbing trees, switching between water and land, flying, hopping on a rock, all are ways to make yourself simply inaccessible to xyz species and makes it so only certain species can continue to engage with you.

We should try to think, or brainstorm, more versions of this.

Dryo burrows are a good future way to add another layer of terrain swap.

Anyway now I have to go get ready for work and eat lunch.

[junior jay]

how does that help with mixpacking at all they could just have for example QUETZ

[cobalt dagger]

I guess we'll see when quetz gets here. Maybe they could make caves that only xyz size of animal can enter? Then make caves of different sizes?

So far those only exist in sancs, and rarely.

But they could add more.

[junior jay]

then what about the apexes they arent immune to mixpacking and also whats stopping the mixpack from having the same specie as you but 2

[cobalt dagger]

Then that's the same as if two of your own kind attacked you which you will never, ever get rid of. Don't balance around that though. Instead balance around isolating different sizes of creatures.

[junior jay]

but theres the problem its impossible to balance them

[cobalt dagger]

Also apexes still come in different sizes, and different speeds. Look into fall damage resistance for them, xyz can survive this fall but abc can't.

[cobalt dagger]

No it's not, I won't believe it's impossible to balance this game until we've all really put some thought into it. I've made multiple suggestions we could give a try before giving up on.

Why the heck do you wanna give up on balancing things???

[junior jay]

it is possible to balance the game just not around mixpacking

[cobalt dagger]

No it's not impossible to balance it around mixpacking, just create more options that isolate species via terrain swapping.

Islands only xyz can swim to, caves only xyz fits in, tree climbing, flying, different fall damage with cliffs only xyz can survive falling off of, make xyz trot faster then make a mud flat where they can trot away and log out...

This is just what I thought of in the last 24 hours. I'm sure we can do better especially if more people think about it than just me and for a longer time.

[junior jay]

but like if they just get deino, rex, cama (in the future quetz) thats 4 playables that together kill basicly the whole roster it would much more efficient to make anti mixpack mechanic and also doing "terrain swapping" would increase mixpacking cause you have to play in specific locations to survive if your not in a mixpack

[jovial apex]

this is why we need mods!!! forreal. different dinos for herbs,carnivores and semi aquatics

[junior jay]

just wait 5 years then we might see them

[uncut umbra]

@jovial apexPlease do not bypass the chat filter.

[cobalt dagger]

Anti mixpacking mechanics are far more abusable than terrain swapping.
A smaller faster thing can chase a bigger slower thing and force it to endure a debuff, and actual mixpackers will just separate as long as needed until they find you and gang up on you.
I'm mystified why people jump me when I ask for more versions of terrain swapping but the famous 'debuff mixpackers' that the same people don't like either can be said without getting jumped.

Also Quetz is not gonna be on the same combat level as rex and trike and things that I'm aware of.

[junior jay]

quetz only for chasing and for smaller tiers

[junior jay]

popular mixpack debuff idea is a bad theres better ways

[cobalt dagger]

They will probably still follow the 'If you can't fight it you can run and if you can't run then you can fight' concept they attempt to apply to all creatures so I'm not dreadfully worried.

[junior jay]

for quetz?

prolly not for quetz it will be more go to certain biome to avoid

(forest)

[junior jay]

and that rule has already gotten broken rex>dible

[spiral ledge]

Allo main and you didnt know that claws needs a big development , you can’t use vs a pro dibble , vs a pro Maia and vs cera is a waste of time

[bitter iris]

Vs Diablo it is super hard to land and cerato just face tank but against Maia, stego and trike it’s your best tool.

What do you dislike about claw

[spiral ledge]

vs a good maia you can do it because with a bug he can stun before you hit the claws , trust me i have pro maias player and is near imposible , vs stego you cant be near because allo lack of agility to be in a good range to do the claws and trike could be

[bitter iris]

Vs a good Maia you cant do anything. I’ve fought pretty good maias who know some tech and canceling, and the good movement but that’s just Maia having way to much going for it when they are good enough.
Against a good stego you can’t do anything alone but if it lets you bait enough to get below 60 stam then you can win. Allos agility is fine it’s more about set up before the attack than during. I like going to there back diagonal, getting as close as I can, and running forward in a straight and clawing their face. Before I like to do the same move just stay slightly out of distance to learn how they react and make them think I won’t go in when I do. You don’t need agility you just need set up and know when to go in.

Against a trike it’s really good but you kinda need 2 people unless the trike is really bad. Wait for it to get in defense stance then work around and get free claw.

Are you asking for claw to allow movement during? I honestly don’t think it needs it, it does enough bleed already and he is faster enough for it to work

[cobalt dagger]

Yes but I have faith they will fix it somehow. I know Dondi wants every species to have some way to stay alive.

Right now that rule is broken, but I believe it will in time get fixed, it will just be fixed in the way the devs are most satisfied with. Perhaps changing speed levels are not in their desires, maybe they just want to think of an alternative method of escape? I dunno. But I doubt they think everything is perfectly balanced.

Maybe we can help by brainstorming ideas rather than giving up on balancing the game.

[cobalt dagger]

Whatever works, I call that a version of escape. If you can't escape you fight and if you can't fight you escape, and terrain swap such as forest is better than running so that's fine by me.

[torn egret]

I think too many people expect this game to be about “fair fights”
This is not a PvP game. It’s survival.

[limber delta]

what exactly is this referring to btw?

[torn egret]

How apex’s and the mid tiers+ have overwhelming advantages usually,
I think the convo overall from before was talking about removing Rex, but it really doesn’t solve much “removing” the biggest tiers.
More balance imo would be to make it more challenging to get prime as you play larger Dino’s, make starvation a larger threat, make stamina more unforgiving etc.
I think people don’t like losing to things outside of their control, whether it be to “better” Dino’s, bad positioning, lack of diet/food, etc
If that makes sense.

Few players seem to like being in the woods etc, despite how dangerous open areas are nowadays for example.

Yet bush camp for ages

[limber delta]

I mean I guess? But you could easily say the same for ppl who think troodon or group pinning is too strong vs apexes

Imo I think trike, stego and rex need massively worse frame data and turn speed so they actually feel like apexes. Nothing about fair fights, I would never want a utah to facetank a prime rex

and in terms of survival, they need worse diets and increased food drain. Rex has such a big diet list I wouldn't be surprised if they added dirt to it.

I also think foliage is too large in size. Namely the massive bushes in south plains and delta. I think reliable bushcamping should be reserved for carno sized predators or smaller. This would encourage large predators and prey to be more creative in their positioning

[torn egret]

I can see that.
But at the same time, life isn’t fair, and this game definitely isn’t lmao.
Troodons are strong af against slow and hefty targets, but a lot of Troos aren’t the best at staying alive or not pouncing teammates 🤣
Grapples need a rework overall for sure.
It shouldn’t be an early fight “insta win”, should cost way more stamina for Allo to even stay latched, bucking is getting reworked too so that helps.
But Omni needs to be more of a bleeder than a damage dealer as well imo. But I think the bleed system overall should change as well to accommodate them,
What you said about foliage, 💯
It’s too easy to hide, and no one should be able to just rest or hide in a bush unless you are tiny af. Using bushes around you to hide is fine, but not use it to hide yourself with no sound etc. (hiding behind, not in to say it simply)

Diets should be far more “restrictive” for apex’s imo.
And some things you shouldn’t get diets from imo if they are too small for you.
Ie, a weight threshold for the organs to even get nutrients from them, and a changing diet list as you grow.
Ai shouldn’t be on a players diet list forever once you get to allo+ in size. (At least sub adult sized)

Sorry I responded in an essay 😂

Wanted to touch on each of the points you brought up tho

[limber delta]

yea no problem much better than when 'those' types of people say 'haha lol skill issue', prepare for an essay of my own lol.

But overall I think the gaps in overall combat viability between different weight tiers does need to be reduced considerably, not enough to make it 'fair' by any means, but enough to make skill more of a factor when hunting or being hunted.

Take pachy for example. Back in U6 it had the ability to stagger larger targets, but with a limit (you could stagger carnos, but not stegos). But currently a full charged ram does zero cc in the same weight gap and instead just stuns pachy instead (due to ram end-lag). I'd like to see a middle ground, where pachy charged ram staggers things like cera and carno for even just half a second, but to not make it too strong, the stagger doesn't disrupt active attacks, so you can't just ram into a cera bite and get away scot free. This wouldn't make the matchup 'fair' but at least skilled pachys would be able to overcome the weight gap with precise positioning and timing rather than just being statchecked

Statcheck is a key word I want to use a lot in these topics. I would like to see less statchecking in the game, and more matchups based on timing, positioning, and skill. Teno vs cera is a prime example of this. Allo vs basically anything smaller than it, eeeeh not so much. Being able to throw around a one shot move with zero punishability for missing it isn't exactly engaging gameplay for either side. At least utah's weight class is so mobile that missing a pounce gives the prey just enough time to punish (utah vs pachy for example).

[torn egret]

And that's a MAJOR part of the issues too.
The balance for survival can make PvP more challenging.
Pachy not being able to stun bigger targets is rough tbh, And I'd prefer if they only had a cooldown between another Ram, so that we could justify a stun.
Otherwise people would pack up with pachy just to stun lock and beat things to death.
Matchups plays into this too imo.
Raptor and Troo imo do better against larger targets, Carno against their size and smaller,
Cera if theres a body near, Allo does too well against most things cause of its bite speed and pounce rn.
So alot of things need to be toned down to be just as punishing to miss sometimes, but also just general speed and mobility work could help alot

[limber delta]

Oh pachy's old stun had a cooldown, not only did you have to back up and charge up your ram again, but even if you had a pachy teammate perfectly time a stagger right after your's, the second stagger wouldn't apply because there was a small global cooldown for the target

Slightly off topic but you mentioned it, allo needs that damn bite speed gutted by at least half, autoclicker merchant

[torn egret]

100% lmao.
RN, I think Allo and Rex are on "easy mode" just to get players to try them.
I am Praying for a reckoning, where the game gets more difficult is several ways, from bite speed, bleed being harsher, stamina rework etc.
JUST to curb the ridiculous amount of players relying on these one trick pony strats.
Allo could be SO much more than a big omni, but that's all people play it as. 🙁
Rex just needs to not spin fast af, and stam costs need to be higher if its supposed to ambush AND brawl.

[limber delta]

they made rex spin so fast including stuff like both of its alt attacks that it feels even more unpunishable than a left turning rex in legacy did