balance-feedback-discussion

[cobalt dagger]

I think instead of hallucination deinos, they should just let dilo hallucinations swim. And since these hallucinations are nightmares and figments of the envenomed creature's imagination who's bites symbolize the damage the venom does to them - Even though real dilos can't jump or climb rocks, I think having dilo hallucinations climb rocks in some kind of weirdly unnatural, nightmarish way would give them more horror while also not being countered so hard by creatures sitting on rocks.

Y'know I think this is short enough to make a feedback post out of it, I will see if I can do that.

[lusty dagger]

@cobalt dagger like the ideas and recently played Dilo and its underwhelming. A real Horror would be a Quetzl coming from above to scream at you 😄

@hybrid marsh it's the mentality of PvP focussed players in a PvP game. Nobody can stop them playing herbivore and KoS.
In some way i also dont like it, in another way i know every restriction or mechani that tries to prevent it will only cause the PVP focussed players to find ways around or even more bad start griefing maybe or whatever.
You just cannot change peoples mind, attitude, aproach or whatever you call it to a PVP game.
There are mechanics already to prevent extreme slaughter, but look at Hordetest and you know with who you are "playing".

[golden coral]

@hybrid marsh Yes, if there are too many of you and too little food, that's what should happen. There won't be unlimited amounts of resources after all.

[lusty dagger]

true - on top of any overpopulation mother nature finds ways to balance it

[golden coral]

If there legit is a lack of food because 15+ dibbles in the same area, I wouldn't call that "KoS" or so, it's survival at that point.

And it makes sense, I doubt we want too large herds of anything around, besides, it gives food for any carni around

[west plank]

I changed the situation a little bit, I think it's better this way

#general-feedback message

[golden coral]

Better. I would keep walking neutral as well, but add a little cost to trotting, and then a bit more to running. Purely to keep some form of offensive pressure.

[west plank]

I think it's better this way, now there should be an extra cost for attacking by moving forward, especially by running.

[golden coral]

Yeah, the running is fine, I just think the smaller cost should be for trotting, not walking

[west plank]

The cost of walking is almost insignificant, I think this is ideal.

[golden coral]

Are you referring to trotting or walking there then?

Because I'm talking about the actual walking being the same as standing

[west plank]

I think 1% stamina loss every 4 seconds when you walk properly is enough.

There will be no loss when standing still

[golden coral]

So no difference between walking/trotting then? I guess that could work

Still unsure on changing it in the first place before we know how it's meant to really work out, but that's a bit of a different issue

[west plank]

When you start running with the shift key, the cost doubles.

[west plank]

I think these numbers look very ideal.

And I think this will balance the game very well.

[golden coral]

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. My issue is that since we don't really know how stego is meant to use the new attack vs larger things (doesn't have to be rex, could be allo), I'm unsure on changing it. Maybe it's meant to hit and run, in which case slowing the speed or some such may ruin that, maybe it's meant to hold it's ground and slowly walk away, in which case your suggestion might be problematic. Hence, I'd rather not change it, because aside from the dibble being way too slow, there's not really any issue with stego from what I know. Not like you can charge down anyone else to my knowledge, and in the case of dibble vs stego, dibble should get improvements first and foremost.

[west plank]

Yes, you are right, but even if stego receives this correction, if it knows how to use it sparingly, it will not have any problems with stamina. These dinosaurs should not hunt their prey by following them, so this can be prevented by taking this regulation. Yes, new species will come to the game, but as you know, the new feature of stegosaurus is almost 2000- It hits 2500, so it won't be easy for new species to attack this dinosaur.

[west plank]

2500 damage is too much to underestimate, so such an adjustment would balance his new attack form against other types

[golden coral]

It's not really about running out of stamina per say, but simply if stamina should be used or not. Though I agree, stegos shouldn't really chase things down, but I'd rather stego get a slightly slower, better looking run if anything if so. Rather than adjust the new attack for that sake. Or speed other things up, as it were. Stegos can't really hunt anything else down, and I did say dibble should be improved.

And yes, I know the damage hits hard, I expect similar sized or larger opponents to hit just as hard with their own fancy attacks. On top of that, we're getting omni pounce to pin, so there's that to take into account as well. And do keep in mind, allo might be more powerful than we think, and especially rex/trike are going to be more powerful than stego, so I doubt they'll have too much of a problem with a stego.

It's so far been more likely that stego would struggle with rex and trike, than the other way around. So yeah, while your revision isn't as bad, I'll still rather wait and see, because most of the problems seem to stem purely from dibble being terribly slow and all, rather than stego. But there's no real reason to argue, I don't think current stego is much of a problem, and if needed, I'd rather just add a "timer" like cera/pachy to holding the charge.

[west plank]

Enough feedback has been written for Dibble and I did not want to give more Dibble feedback as I thought they could solve many problems. We generally agree. I hope that these genres will probably be balanced in the future and we can play the game comfortably.

[golden coral]

Pretty much, yeah. I don't disagree that it's bad that stegos chase things down, just in what solution should be applied.

[cobalt dagger]

Hey you all, I wanted to share a fight I had.

I was a dilo, fully grown attacking a cera. He wasn't any taller than me, but had adult colors. I wanna say he looked to be like, maybe 80%?

Or maybe he was 70%. His markings were a little scratchy looking/not all the way adult.

I bit him and got venom on him, and summoned clones while he used his young and plentiful stamina to pressure me to run and bleed out.

He did this until the venom wore off and I wasn't able to summon any more clones. I tracked him to a bush, started a fight again, and I messed up - Dilo's hitbox is so tiny, I THOUGHT I bit him but in reality I did not, however he bit me. I ended up dying, and it's on me, I could have ran but I suppose I thought I would have had better luck against a younger cera.

Generally speaking, cera is slower than Dilo so being able to hold his own against a dilo seems essential, since he might have to fight more than one. And also I think it takes longer to reach 70% on cera than 100% on dilo.
So, I don't think the fight should be in my favor, I suppose.

I think I might like it if Dilo's hitbox/bite-box wasn't so narrow and seemingly difficult to pinpoint though.

There was mud nearby and he didn't use it to deny clones, I respect that. He fought me as if dilo wasn't hardcountered by mud and water. It was at the mudpool at Highland lake.

I am a bit surprised he was able to just, tank all the clones I sent at him and chase me though. I never heard any hit sounds on him though, I am wondering if the clones actually ever bit him or hit him

I wish I could ask him if any did but there's no global chat or any way to do that of course.

I've noticed I can hear hit-sounds or the dino pain noises when clones bite players I've envenomed.

If the clones were not biting him somehow, I do not know how.

But he was pretty close on my tail (I had the night speed boost and the day speed boost, he probably had it too but he was almost keeping up with me, I think he had that speed that like, 70% ceras are faster than 100% ceras so he was actually quite fast)

So maybe they were not able to catch him or keep up with him somehow?

After running and tanking all the clones when the venom wore off he sat in a bush and I found him again, because I thought, SURELY he must be weak after tanking all the clones. Then I fumbled my bites and died, so if he was weak I won't really know- Maybe he was and I just fumbled it.

This was in hordetesting by the way.

[golden coral]

If the clones did appear, it's possible he just hit them before they could do damage. Did you see if he bit at air at any point?

[cobalt dagger]

No, he was charge biting as he chased me the whole time.

And would keep charging as I sent clones

Keeping the charge up so that I would be punished if I came to bite hime

[golden coral]

Hm, maybe they still didn't show up then, there might be other issues, or questionable environment even without water/mud

[cobalt dagger]

Oh, then that's sad.

I thought he was weak from being bit by clones and pressured him

In the end after several fumbled bites I thought he had to be weak and face-tanked him and died for it.

[golden coral]

Also yeah, dilo hitbox is... odd to say the least, I've seen people mention issues with it before

[cobalt dagger]

I did not hear any pain noises so I guess none of my clones ever got him.

But, I want to add, I don't think 1 v 1 cera v dilo should be in the dilo's favor.

I shouldn't be able to face-tank a cera as dilo, even if he's weak it shouldn't be easy.

I super wish I could ask him how low he was and ask if my clones ever showed up

Thank you for reading this and telling me your thoughts, by the way. I appreciate it.

[golden coral]

When things go live, or if you go back to live version, you could stage some fights and see how it goes

[shadow vortex]

Tbh the cera probs just ran into clones before they bit him, this still dissolves them. Also, sub-adult ceras aren’t faster than adults, they’re slower

[golden coral]

Wait, it does? I thought you had to hit them

[alpine plover]

Dilo is just in a mid position rn

Gets outcompeted by every carnivore besides troodon and herrera

[cobalt dagger]

There's some stage of cera's life where it's faster than the adult, don't know what exact percentage but teno, raptor, and dilo also have it. At about 60-70% a dilo is like 50 k/h but as an adult it's 47

I think for cera it's around 41 as an adult but has an earlier stage where it's like, 44 or something.

Also, the cera was HOT on my tail the whole time, like chasing me constantly so I couldn't stop running and he was almost as fast as I was. Unless the clones all spawned in between me and him somehow (and he made sure there was never much space between us) then I don't think he was running into the clones.

Even with these challenges though, I find I enjoy dilo a lot.

I think it might be nice if dilo venom responded to weight rather than the dilo's age though. A fresh spawn dilo being chased by a fresh spawn carno can't use its venom in that fight.

I find the fog venom causes to be very useful for escaping predators

I don't want baby dilos to venom adult things, or at least not easily though.

Perhaps they could make it like - 'deal 25% of enemy hp = You now have applied venom' and for a baby dilo to damage 25% of an adult ceras hp would be nigh-impossible.

[cobalt dagger]

@distant torrent
Wait, is omni able to pin bigger things now, or is this pounce-to-pin?

[distant torrent]

I think the grapple? one was on me initially having me pinned down then another briefly joined in on the grapple/pin then I think bugged off

none of my stam was drained from it, but I don’t think any of theirs was either because it brought me from full health to death after a long 30 or so seconds of watching my dibble helplessly struggle lol

maybe the bleed is backwards? I’ve heard they can grapple on low bleed, and I seemed to be grappled at 90% bleed (first pounce didn’t initiate it). so instead of it being 10% bleed or something, grapple can be initiated at 90%?

[cobalt dagger]

I had no idea this 'grapple' feature was introduced, only that bucking was useless and that you're slowed down if too many raptors on you

My goodness, raptor is destroying everything already with bucking being useless, this makes it so much worse.

And corresponding to this there's SO MANY OF THEM

[distant torrent]

yep. I was excited to play dibble and other herbivores thinking the food problem was tweaked but I guess it’s right back to meta gameplay to avoid guaranteed death and time wasted lol

[cobalt dagger]

This seems, awful.

I guess I'll play omni.

Even given that eventually canni omnis will appear, at least I'll be their same speed and stamina so long as I get speed buffs.

To be honest I don't mind playing dilo either, dilo technically has slightly better stamina and speed.

It's why I was playing dilo earlier.

I saw it as the best option for a solo player who wants to run away from raptors but not have to be galli (and suffer migration zone) or carno and suffer ridiculous hunger drain.

I had a good life as dilo running around and eating dead stuff and killing unfortunate baby diablos when I needed to. (I am sorry baby diablos)

Several times I met a group of them and killed only one and let the others go but they always came back to fight to the death... I suspect they wanted to respawn with their friend group/must have all been in discord calls or something

But, if I wanted to hunt solo raptors, omni is better for the job than dilo.

Omni can pin each other.

[cobalt dagger]

Does anyone know if raptor will be able to pounce-to-pin rex?

Or deino - Maybe then raptors could finally hunt land deinos, in a way

[dusky surge]

who knows. Probably lol

[cobalt dagger]

It seems like it shouldn't happen, like rex shouldn't have enough surface area for raptors to latch vs weight of raptor vs power of rex's muscles to not be weighed down, to be pinned

Like even if he wore an armor suit of biting raptors I imagine he'd still be able to at least walk in that state. Maybe I overestimate how tiny a raptor is to a rex though.

[dusky surge]

given how easily it can take down a stego atm, i'm sure they'll find a way to pin rexes

[distant torrent]

yea. solo play is a nightmare now with grapple if you’re anything slower than an omni

you just simply roll over and die. just not worth the hours invested.

imo, all pins and pin-like mechanics need to be reevaluated and changed so they’re not a “Haha. I hold this one button and win without debate :3!” trump card

[shadow vortex]

Wasn't grapple supposed to be activated only if the prey is SEVERELY exhausted or on low health?

[shadow vortex]

Like I'm seeing tons of feedback where the prey is healthy but still being pinned to death. I thought grapple would be an "end of the hunt" mechanic tbh

[distant torrent]

my perfect imagining of the grapple if it had to be implemented would be it being used as a sort of risk-reward finisher move.

prey is weak (low blood and low stam), and you know it, so you could go for a grapple and ensure it doesn’t have a chance to escape somehow and finish the fight now instead of drawing it out further. however, the risk comes in if the prey isn’t exhausted enough and doesn’t have low enough bleed; you go in for a pack grapple, and you end up pouncing your teammates from a poor evaluation like how pounce usually works (max of one omni per side + one on back)

[shadow vortex]

Yep, I was imaging the same thing... Maybe they're just testing the mechanic rn and will adjuste balance side later, I hope so at least

And tbh if grapple will be left this way it only will encourage sitting near any walls further more lol

[distant torrent]

I very much hope it’ll be changed

encourage sitting near walls, more afk growth, and people playing more things that don’t get absolutely deleted lol (deino, omni, fast playables that actually have a chance of running away)

[shadow vortex]

Well as of now, welcome to the period of "play omni or die"

[distant torrent]

unfortunately..

[dusky surge]

why cant bucking be good

[distant torrent]

because it’s either allowed to be too good or too useless

no in between allowed

[dusky surge]

i have been saying this for years, the omniraptor cycle is real

omniraptor exists
it becomes the MOST oppressively powerful animal in the entire game
it has to be nerfed for the sake of the game's health
omniraptor mains become HYSTERICAL and demand it get buffs, despite it still not being bad, it just requires skill to get kills
omniraptor gets slowly and slowly more powercrept till it reaches the critical zone
repeat

it has happened so many times where omniraptor reaches "critical mass" and HAS to be tuned down, only to immediately be met with backlash

also, with the current state of carnotaurus, it's main moderating predator just isn't good, or flat-out loses to current omni, so it is objectively better to pick the omni

[distant torrent]

we are in the critical zone it seems like lol can’t wait for the repeating of the cycle

[dusky surge]

there is no other animal like omniraptor when it comes to balance. It is so uniquely up and down

U3, U5.5, Gateway launch and now are all examples of "critical omni"

[distant torrent]

someone could honestly argue this is the worst its been and I wouldn’t be able to debate it. at least with the previous critical points, you could actually fight back

now you just sit there and watch as you’re not even allowed to click lmb or wasd anymore

[dusky surge]

4 unique updates where I distinctly recall omniraptor being the primary dominant creature. Sure, deino, cera, dilo, carno, pachy and even dryo for a short bit have had their times in the critical zone, carno coming in close second to omni for the amount of times it's been an absolute menace (except unlike omni, it got banished to godawful zone for basically every update past Gateway launch for its sins)

BTW, I would be so bold to say carno has been, for a good while, the most overlooked animal. It NEEDS a change, soon. Cerato got its changes and actually is beginning to look up (becoming the main-seen carnivore of its size) but carno? It needs something, soon, especially with the omni critical mass

[distant torrent]

(persistent small game hunter that doesn’t require 10+ dryos to get full diet)

[leaden remnant]

wait wait wait

i havent tested it but ive heard that a raptor can solo pin an adult dibble is this factual

[dusky surge]

seems to be

[distant torrent]

not sure about adult, but I certain had my 1,100 kg dibble pinned

[leaden remnant]

bro

[distant torrent]

and deleted

[dusky surge]

like i've said, critical mass

[leaden remnant]

someone messed up real big time 💀

not even a stam or blood threshold just straight up cmere police get down 😭

[dusky surge]

no, no one messed up, this is what was planned. Everyone could see this coming, especially considering how well Omni was performing on the horde test before the changes

[leaden remnant]

nonono i cant even get close to believing that a raptor was supposed to solo pin a 1100kg dibble

biggest nuh uh ever

[dusky surge]

it has literally been advertising pinning stuff like stego with like... 2-3 raptors? This wasn't a surprise to me

[distant torrent]

I was naive and thought it’d be far more balanced

I was very wrong

[leaden remnant]

pretty sure it was like 5 raptors

and pretty sure that's why they added the backpack, so there was another slot

watched a vid of a sub stego being pinned by 5 raptors, the second one got off it wasn't pinned anymore

[dusky surge]

stego shouldn't have backpack regardless

[leaden remnant]

that's a whole different thing but im just saying someone messed up with the weight things real big time

however for now i shall commit terrorism as a raptor

[dusky surge]

better get the cannibal perk

otherwise you will likely go hungry very fast

oh and get used to cannibals

[leaden remnant]

dw ill just solo pin a fg stego

(joke)

[dusky surge]

those ain't around much anymore

[distant torrent]

cannibal + bleed doesn’t kill you when you sit + hunger drain reduction

[dusky surge]

raptors are just wiping every dibble/stego off the map, so they just play raptor. It's a problem lol

[leaden remnant]

i know it is

[dusky surge]

quickly becoming raptor clan wars

[leaden remnant]

idk who on earth made raptors able to solo pin a 1100kg dibble

but whoever did it messed up real big time

[dusky surge]

on the bright side it needs low health and stam (which doesn't matter given how bucking works)

[distant torrent]

I was thinking it was some kind of error on blood since the first pounce didn’t initiate it, but another pounce when I was 90%ish blood did initiate it

but I could be wrong. haven’t gotten a chance to fully test it multiple times

[keen plover]

Growing a pachy to test with someone but I'm assuming it's complete gg for pachy

Fodder pachy moment 😔

[distant torrent]

godspeed growth for your mcdonald burger with legs

[low lodge]

I also would like to come in and say that since bucking was nerfed, it is a waste of time to be using it. It drains more stam from you to try and get one singular omni off of you. Better off with a tree.

[dusky surge]

exactly

[low lodge]

And I think the grapple/pin needs to be adjusted for sure when in regards to weight ratio or drain more stam from raptors who initiate the pin animation..

like at a faster rate cause as of rn it's not draining fast enough and doesn't punish omni as much. It drains at the rate of a regular pounce.

[shadow vortex]

Also galli needs to get another pinning animation when it actually kicks omni in the face 🥸

I wonder why it didn’t get one because omni can attack another omni while being pinned

[distant torrent]

I think I recall dondi saying that the way omni pins galli isn’t going to stay like that forever?

which has been needed ever since the increased stam that came with gateway tbh

same with omni vs omni pounce. unless it was changed, an omni at full stam can pounce anything its own size and below and still have a good chunk of stam left over after basically one-shotting the unfortunate hold-rmb-to-win receiver

[leaden remnant]

#balance-feedback message imma be fully honest, if teamwork n more is braindead skill-less, idk what charge bite or ram is

it's not braindead or skill less, it's just soooooooooooo broken it's stupid

[rigid tulip]

Its literally just right clicking as a group and then your prey gets stun-locked because it chose to exist while weighing less than 3,000 kg

Completely indefensible mechanic

I’ll be honest bro im just completely done.

Nothing can be said anymore

[leaden remnant]

ram is just tap right click and be a bullet train

[golden coral]

To be fair, it's probably not been balanced yet, so for now, take it for what it is, find out how the mechanic work and all that

[leaden remnant]

charge bite is just hold right click press left click and boom 1 shot a raptor in the head

[rigid tulip]

Dodgeable, no stun

[rigid tulip]

Dodgeable no stun

[leaden remnant]

you can dodge or invalidate a pounce

[rigid tulip]

And you can hit back.

Pounce = im on you and im invincible and I make you disabled

[golden coral]

Dodge, not sure honestly, use terrain, oh yeah, this will only make that happen even more

[leaden remnant]

use a slope

[rigid tulip]

I used to defend omni and even main it but honestly I can no longer even slightly defend omni players

[leaden remnant]

they will all die to fall damage

[golden coral]

But it does seem like a bit of an overreaction, similar to stegos new attack, so maybe give it more than a day or two and see from there

[leaden remnant]

^^

it is an overreaction

[rigid tulip]

They can afford to do suicidal actions because if they all do it you are stunlocked and its gg

[leaden remnant]

1h 42 mins of growth time

[golden coral]

At the very least, get used to it a bit, and we'll see which critters might need adjustments where

[rigid tulip]

“Stunlocking is good for the game”

[leaden remnant]

majority of players haev a horrendous skill issue

[golden coral]

If they made it so you have to be at red health, and then made the amount of omnis needed depend on stamina threshold then it might be better, and would turn it into a proper finisher for big targets where even "low health" can be quite a few attacks otherwise and so make it worth it

[rigid tulip]

Its still just purposely removing counterplay no matter how you balance it. The concept is the issue

[keen plover]

All I'm going to say is it's day 1 of this mechanic on a test branch. It does need changes of course. We also know bucking is being reworked so I'd just wait and give constructive feedback on the system

[leaden remnant]

^^

[dusky surge]

Oh, it is? Fantastic

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, they made new stego attack cost 10% stam, so whoever wanted to ruin stego again got their wish

[dusky surge]

WHAT

[dusky surge]

God dammit, I was a fool to think stego would have it good for long

Egrigiously overdoing stamcosts doesn't balance things, it just makes them godawful to use

[golden coral]

Obviously, has to be a stationary turret, baitable, and can't be allowed to actually fight back properly

[shadow vortex]

They could just have added sliiight stamina cost for trotting and running with the tail upped, as “Eat grass and die” guy suggested… Wth

[dusky surge]

No, that one is worse actually

I'd rather the 10% to that

[shadow vortex]

Idk why devs always go from one extreme to another

[golden coral]

5% for new attack, 4% for old one, turn old attack into alt so it can be used out of stam but with the punishments there are supposed to be. If needed, give a timer to the held charge like pachy/cera, and we're good to go.

[leaden remnant]

i mean might as well make the old one the "alt attack" (can be used without stam) but not the power swing

and not make it 10% stam cost for it

[golden coral]

Yeah, they should do that anyway, so it's not two attacks on the same button (also the old one fits alt better, with more camera angles anyway)

[leaden remnant]

imma be fully honest bro 10% cost does nothing

you can still use it

and stego is a bastion so the stego will always camp

[golden coral]

Not that one. The new power swing is 10%, old one is still 5%

[dusky surge]

10% cost is what murdered carno in its sleep

[leaden remnant]

yeah i know

[golden coral]

Oh okay, cause it sounded like you were talking about the old jab, sorry xD

[leaden remnant]

but im just saying, 10% extra cost does little cause you can still use it yknow

so i think it's better to make it cost way less but not be able to be used when outta stam

[golden coral]

Yeah sure, but with new omni pounce to pin being reliant upon stam, that seems like a terrible idea

[leaden remnant]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[golden coral]

One attack and you might go from "can not be pinned" to "can be pinned"

[leaden remnant]

i cant lie it is true

[golden coral]

10% is a lot of stamina in one go

[dusky surge]

10% cost also is just godawful to lose in one go

[leaden remnant]

yeah it is a lot

how much stam does the setgo have to haev to be pinned?

i cant spell today

[golden coral]

Hence why I suggested 5% for power swing, 4% (alt style) for old jab, and just timer for held charge then if needed

No idea, I don't think people know how it works yet

[leaden remnant]

i just know that two raptors can pin a teno when he's low on stam

[golden coral]

But I'm pretty sure stam is part of what matters

[leaden remnant]

might hvae just pinned a teno who did not know what stop moving means

[golden coral]

At least with new pounce to pin, we'll get to see what it looks like when something that can run you down can also shut you down

[leaden remnant]

thats the scary part

it can run you down and also simply annihilate you

solution: group up till it's changed

[dusky surge]

thats a terrible solution

for a list of reasons

[leaden remnant]

my good sir

im saying that until it's changed that's the only solution

[golden coral]

I main stego, I don't do groups. Every time it's either A, want to go deino fishing/trying to run down others, B, coming in 3-4 in the herd already, and at times even more, or C, both of those together.

I have had little to no good times being in groups with other stegos xD

[leaden remnant]

same

[leaden remnant]

it might be a terrible solution but it is the only solution right now

[golden coral]

Yeah, I'll just take another break I think, besides, new DRG season tomorrow I believe

[leaden remnant]

hmm

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message
"Omni went from hard to ultra ez"

I mean... It wasn't hard before, it's just REALLY easy now

[frosty heron]

It wasn´t hard before but it was fine , now they need to check on the pin and tweek it , still WIP but honestly I dont want to see Omni getting nerfed to trash like we had on previous game versions where it was beyond inviable to play ,

[dusky surge]

omni has never once been "nerfed to trash"

it's been bugged and basically renderred unplayable, but that's not the fault of balance, that's the fault of bugs

[frosty heron]

It was , couple times , can remember some versions of it from Spiro map times where playing it was legit pain

[dusky surge]

likely when it was horribly bugged

a lot of people think U6.5 omni was garbage, but it actually was very good

ironically, the issue back then was bucking being good

[frosty heron]

Current version (not HT) Omni is the sweet spot to have it , bucking is useless thats right , its been stated that the mechanic doesnt work , people should use terrain I recomend it , the amount of Omnis I bucked off that way gives me a certain counterplay

[dusky surge]

this is not a sweet spot

[frosty heron]

Actually im fine to bucking to do good stamina damage if pounce to Pin works as it should be

[dusky surge]

this is actually the critical point omni always reaches

where its power state is so strong, it has to be nerfed urgently

[frosty heron]

Imo it is , If I can counterplay Omnis , and have good survivality with it at the same time , is where the playable should stay

[dusky surge]

this has happened in 3 other updates

U3, U5.5, Gateway launch

every time, omni reached a critical state where it was far too strong for the rest of the roster, and got nerfed

@keen plover oh my god

full stam, full health

[regal tulip]

they even changed the normal pin values?

wtf

[leaden remnant]

#balance-feedback message yeah this is actually bad

[leaden remnant]

no, somehow pounce to pin ones override the normal ones

[dusky surge]

nope, thats pounce to pin

[leaden remnant]

so raptors will go on a pinning spree

[dusky surge]

it just doesn't care because it's tuned for stego-sized animals

here's my hot-take, you just SHOULD NOT be able to pin up to stego weight, because it puts animals like pachy/dilo in massive danger

the weight is just far too scaled

[regal tulip]

pin up to 2 tons with 3 raptors imo

[leaden remnant]

i mean stegos should be able to be pinned, but it should be 5

otherwise, they won't die to anything

[regal tulip]

stegos already die to omnis

but its an apex, rn its a walking buffet

[dusky surge]

should be 5, stego should have ZERO stamina and possibly already be missing health/blood, and then I'd consider it slightly fair

[leaden remnant]

50% blood at least

[golden coral]

Just make it so target must be at red health, and then work with numbers from there. Target at red health + trot stam threshold, pinned by "full set", then you go down one, so walk threshold requires one less omni, standing threshold one less, and then if you're so low on stam that you must rest to regain, you can get pinned by the least amount (1-2 omnis depending on the amount of slots)

[leaden remnant]

red health looks a bit crazy imo

cause you die to blood loss more than health

[dusky surge]

its a pin. That's already unfair

[golden coral]

Proper finisher for being on low health + stam thresholds decide amount of omnis (which is why they do bleed, and then bait out attacks/movement)

[regal tulip]

this

[leaden remnant]

pin is not unfair

[regal tulip]

tbf they should just make it a "finisher"

[dusky surge]

what do you do to get out of the pin? what counterplay do you have to make it fair?

[golden coral]

I think it'd be fine, you should have to almost have killed the target, the pin is just you finishing them off really, and depending on their stam, you might or might not need more friends for it

[leaden remnant]

i want it to be like that

[regal tulip]

dont log in ig

[golden coral]

They massively upped the cost on the new attack, so now it's more or less terrible to use

[keen plover]

Such a terrible oversight

[leaden remnant]

dont get pinned ig

[dusky surge]

ah, so it's unfair

thank you

[leaden remnant]

but either way we both know we ain't gonna get anywhere if we argue about this

[regal tulip]

but it can still use it while on 0 stam right?

[leaden remnant]

you're gonna claim that it's unfair and im gonna claim that it ain't, so let's not argue about it

(i aint got the energy to argue about pin)

[dusky surge]

so would you like a sniper rifle in this game?

[leaden remnant]

pretty sure it's being added

[dusky surge]

yea, but do you think it's a good addition

[regal tulip]

i mean counterplay to deino is to find safe drinking spots, counterplay to an omni pack rn is to what? be faster?

[leaden remnant]

i literally just dont wanna argue

im here to share some ideas not argue about random snipers

[leaden remnant]

fight

[dusky surge]

anyway, point is

except as we can see from our pachy friend, you can't

[leaden remnant]

i know you cant

is it stupid that you can't? yes

[regal tulip]

lol wat

[leaden remnant]

it is broken, i want a fix

all the ppl i play with want a fix as well

[dusky surge]

and the fix should be saving pin specifically only when the animal is already like, 75% of the way to death and entirely exhausted

[leaden remnant]

and i agree with it

it takes away the fun of fighting as i expressed in my own feedback

quick kills are satisfying but they ain't fun and i wanna have fun

[regal tulip]

mb thought you meant pin RIGHT NOW is fine, not in general

[leaden remnant]

oh i understand

it is everything but fine right now

[regal tulip]

as a finisher hell yeah, maybe even with starting to eat while on it

[dusky surge]

i honestly still want galli back to 510kg

the galli weight nerf is so bizarre. It is so EVIDENTLY bigger and heavier than omni but just... isn't

[leaden remnant]

i want a finisher man

im pretty sure i've said it like 100 times lmao

[dusky surge]

hell, it could be pinned WHEN it was 510kg, that was never the issue, they just nerfed galli

[leaden remnant]

the finisher being like that would be cool as heck

(pin and murdur)

i absolutely love pounce to pin but it's acting up rn yknow

[golden coral]

Not the new attack, only the old

[golden coral]

Hide even more in terrain

[dusky surge]

and omni doesn't exist

[frosty heron]

Its an Utahraptor without feathers tbh

[dusky surge]

realism is moot when the game does with sizes, weights and models as it pleases

it is NOT a utahraptor without feathers, it is flat just not a utahraptor

[golden coral]

Not really, utahraptor would be far more bulky I'm pretty sure

It's just a JP raptor

[dusky surge]

it's JP raptor, is what it is

[frosty heron]

Anyhow Isle has always pretended to have realistic weight on the playables

[dusky surge]

okay but the galli weight didn't need to be nerfed

it is the most bizarre nerf to anything ever in this game

[frosty heron]

And taking away the current Pin , I dont see why Galli should not be pinned, its the fastest playable , if you got ambushed and pinned thats your mistake , if it doesnt get pinned then from a single pounce it should bleed out if you run away

[dusky surge]

it got pinned when it was 510kg

it literally had an entire unique exception where it got pinned, even though it was heavier

again, zero reason to nerf it

[frosty heron]

Then why bringing back the 510 kg weight , wouldnt make much difference

[dusky surge]

because it never needed to be nerfed

[golden coral]

A bit of extra health/blood, wouldn't go amiss perhaps

[dusky surge]

the extra 85HP made it possible to not always die in one pin, and actually run for a bit

yes, if you ran too much, you would bleed out, but it was a CHANCE

it added more to the hunting dynamic

raptors would ambush and then pursue the galli, catch it while it was resting, and finish it, which was more fun for both sides

#balance-feedback message
@gleaming steeple Bucking is really bad, it def needs looking at, it's absolutely not good as you say. While I agree that omni is busted, bucking def needs looking at.

[true ginkgo]

@keen plover I've seen many balance issues in my time playing dino games....

But this. This takes the cake.

And the worst thing is, a massive chunk of the community seems to like omni being able to lolkill absolutely anything without a counter.

[keen plover]

Yeah it's something else rn :(

You'd think pachy would be fine but oh well

[true ginkgo]

I don't understand how the pin is fun and engaging gameplay.

it's just 'click and they die'

just takes ages for them to die so they have to go and watch netflix while it's going on

[dusky surge]

pachy seems to be the afterthought whenever omni gets any changes

despite it being dependent on always scaling with omni

[keen plover]

Pachy's been an afterthought for over a year, when they removed stuns

[keen plover]

I'd accept it if it was overtuned to begin with since it's a test, but the bare minimum should have been for pachy to not be pinned from the very start of pounce

[leaden remnant]

afterthought llc

[true ginkgo]

yeah at this point if you're pachy and an omni even spots you, it's gg

[dusky surge]

idk, a lot of animals just seem to get the short end of the stick

pachy, carno and (to a lesser extent) dilo have been pretty badly ignored for animals that are struggling so hard

[leaden remnant]

soo i was just playing cera

walk past a 6 raptor pack with one of my friends also playing cera

a pachy comes around

[dusky surge]

dryo has gotten more love than those guys (and honestly is more viable than them too)

[leaden remnant]

bro lasted 10 seconds

[true ginkgo]

dryo only viable as it can grow fast and hide anywhere

[leaden remnant]

needless to say he got pinned by 5 raptors and died in 3 seconds

counted em

[golden coral]

And stego got some love, only to then lose it again. But yeah, some critters do seem to get more attention than others, but it could be a matter of them wanting certain mechanics done before others and all that

And well, we're on a testing branch of a game far from being done, I guess this kind of shenanigans just comes with the territory as it were

[golden coral]

If only it could be exempt from MZ and eat anywhere, anytime. Then you could actually be social with other herbis (and since you're a dryo, you can't do much to get in the way at least)

[true ginkgo]

the cracks in the migration zone system gonna really show when things like minmi turn up.

dibble for most of its growth can't even use the migration system as you run out of time before reaching it

[slim dragon]

The cracks are already showing
It's gonna fall apart completely

[true ginkgo]

migrations work great for zoomier animals

[dusky surge]

Honestly they legitimately need to consider an alternative to migrations. I'd like to see migratory species being like their own thing. Galli, for instance, works great as a migratory species. Minmi, however, does not.

Just give galli two possible migration zones so my guy can just zoom around the map if he so pleases

[true ginkgo]

nesting already doesn't play well with migrations

[dusky surge]

Or just allow free-roam

And have migration be an event

[true ginkgo]

how on earth are you meant to make a burrow with a slow dino which can't get to its migrations?

[dusky surge]

Like, every once in a while, your species will get a migration, where you can intermingle or compete with other players

So like

1 hour of free roam
1 hour of migration (or until all the food is eaten)
Back to free roam

Migration is good for nesting because you can settle down and gain access to diets all in one place, whereas free roam just allows you to explore

[golden coral]

That's the plan, I think

[dusky surge]

I've heard so

But I've heard the free-roam will be a rare event specific to players/groups and not species

But it's absolutely an upgrade in all senses

Speaking of galli btw this thing has soared in terms of how fun it is to play as of the trot buff lmao

[golden coral]

Makes sense, being able to move around efficiently tend to be fun

Hence why new stego attack feels better aswell

[low lodge]

I remember before the grapple, killing a stego was definitely being careful,and patient. But it was also skill based and trusting the pack. To succeed was part of the fun of it being difficult. Grapple is overtuned and I hope it's resolved soon lol in some way

[spring field]

its impossible to latch with 4

[distant torrent]

@steep warren only issue with that is when something under 3 tons is spotted by 4 omnis and isn’t faster, they just simply die

[shadow vortex]

Grapple shouldn't be based only on the prey's left stamina... There are already few animals whose attacks are tied to stamina COMPLETELY (teno and stego), so what, they shouldn't fight back at all to not be pinned to their death?

[golden coral]

A solo omni should be able to pin things as long as they're under 25%, even larger things? And a pack should be able to pin a large thing, not even having reached the trot threshold? You don't think that sounds a bit too good? Or do you intend for the pin to be temporary only?

[golden coral]

Apparently it currently doesn't matter, four omnis will pin you as adult stego. (From what I've read from others, take it with a whole deposit of salt)

[distant torrent]

#isle-discussion message checks out tbh

[steep warren]

Not really, as they only get pinned if all 4 omnis get on at the same time. That means each one has to stay on. The prey has a lot more time to use their surroundings or shake at least one off

[atomic palm]

#general-feedback i have a amazing idea

[sonic flame]

Tbf Minmi could work fine with migrations depending on the layout of its zones

Speed on land I'd expect to be pretty bad, but I could def see a Minmi legging it while running on the bottom of the water, that could let you use waterways as safe and speedy pathways around the island

Granted, you'd have to place Minmi's zones relatively close to water for that to work, but also you'd want to do that anyway since it's a semi aquatic

[cobalt dagger]

I agree. Until such changes, I will be playing dilo, and omni, probably.

[cobalt dagger]

If too many omnis get on, it slows you down, and if you're already slow, that makes you an easy target so more omni can jump on you faster, as well as making you take longer to find an object to rub them off on due to being slow. I'm pretty sure they'd figure it out before you manage to slowly walk to that tree over there.

[steep warren]

Currently too many omnis doesn't slow you down I'm pretty sure do that wouldn't be an issue

[cobalt dagger]

They removed that? I never noticed it being removed, pretty sure I got slowed down in hordetest. If they removed it, they must have removed it along with grapple.

I also got slowed down before the hordetest too.

You gotta be the right size or have the right amount of raptors latched on before it happens.

Personally I like the feature, but I want bucking to WORK if you're going to keep it.

Bucking should take stamina, which you need for running away. Also low stamina makes you bleed faster.

So you have to take a risk by bucking

But the slowing-you-down means you kinda have to buck.

Of course, right now, so far as I know slowing down works and bucking doesn't so currently you get slowed down and then soon perish.

I think slowing-you-down is realistic and interesting, I want it to stay, and then I want bucking to work.

[leaden remnant]

i watched a video of a big sub stego being pinned down by 4 raptors, one got off and he auto got up, then another one got on and he went down again

[lusty dagger]

Pinning should only be based on weight. And Bucking gets a rework so you can escape from beeing pinned.
Raptor(s) can pin everyathing half his/their actual weight and pinned dino can buck and have a chance to get up again also based on weight. If the Raptor(s) weight that pin you is double, your chance is 50%. If it is more than double your chance is only 25%.

[slim dragon]

RNG

[dusky surge]

no chance based system please

thats not fun for anyone

[lusty dagger]

so it becomes a stam game only? who has more stam?

[slim dragon]

If the alternative is a "who has more luck ?" System yeah, being a stam game only is better

[lusty dagger]

maybe interesting with that Stam per dmg mutation

what was the name of it, cannot find it atm

[dusky surge]

mutations like that are bad

[lusty dagger]

i agree, but it dont think they will remove combat mutations

all combat mutations make any kind of balance hard to achieve and create meta's. And Meta's are allways bad when it comes to variance of viable playstyles

[dusky surge]

they should though

[lusty dagger]

as i said i fully agree , but doubt it will happen

[dusky surge]

idk man, i think that the horde test is more of an experiment than a set in stone thing

if anything, the horde test has done exactly what it should've

proved how unhealthy combat mutations are for the game

[tender ermine]

Absolutely baffling reply to my post bahaha

[dusky surge]

do u understand wtf they meant

[tender ermine]

I think it’s just an Omni main trying to keep their animal OP tbh

[dusky surge]

maybe????

[graceful eagle]

why are you guys all hating on omni pounce, its a great addition. And its kinda hard to execute, it took 5 fully raptors to kill 1 fully cera and took like 15 mins as well

[tender ermine]

Cause it’s too easy to pin stuff at the moment and should be toned down

[dusky surge]

it really ain't that hard

aim, pounce, pin, win

that's it really

[graceful eagle]

mechanism is, but pounce right without getting punished ?

[tender ermine]

Aye it is very easy to use also

[dusky surge]

it already was without punishent

that makes it even less punished\

the rare situation someone actually bucked was a suicide attempt, frankly

[graceful eagle]

You guys cant be real right? No single dino should overpower like 5-6 fully other specie of dinos unless the weight gap is off the charts

[tender ermine]

Bucking changes are desperately needed also

[graceful eagle]

pinning down costs tremendous amount of stamina

[tender ermine]

They should re add the pouncing animation and recovery for missed pounces back too

[lusty dagger]

anyone tested Truculency versus Omni Pin?

[tidal nest]

2.4T Deino being pinned by 1 raptor dosn't seem right ..

[ruby badge]

holy schmoly

[lusty dagger]

was stego already nerfed or what is its status?

[golden coral]

Depends on what you mean with nerfed?

[slim dragon]

krill issue

[grand grail]

Idk how omni grapple would even be balanced for bigger creatures if it worked how it was intended

[dusky surge]

there is one dude reacting the shut emote on anyone criticising raptor lmao

[slim dragon]

also reacted shut on this one
#balance-feedback message

for some reason

[tender ermine]

Omni main behaviour 😏

[lusty dagger]

dead already due to fatal error and omnis.
I didnt feel the charged swing is op, maybe it got a nerf

[hidden kettle]

its actually useing stam now 😄

[neon willow]

I think there's 2 interacting issues. First, buck sucks. It uses up too much stamina on both sides of the interaction, and takes too long to dislodge a pounced Omni, meanwhile the defending player is taking massive amounts of bleed. So change #1. Make buck dislodge a raptor after a fixed amount of time. It can still drain stamina, but it shouldn't drain all the raptors stamina nor a majority of the preys stamina. Or make it interactive-- have the prey succeed a timing check to toss the raptor.

Second issue is growth times. I've seen people complaining that a dibble who's growth time is 2+ hours is killed in seconds with no counterplay by 2 raptors who combined weigh less than the dibble and who each put less time into their growth. It feels unfair. The solution here is varied-- maybe growth times can be adjusted, maybe additional requirements (low health/stam to pin) would help, maybe buck alone would help. Gotta tweak and test

[golden coral]

It costs 15% to use running and 10% standing, very high costs, so yes, in that sense stego was nerfed, overly so, because those are far too high costs quite frankly.

[golden coral]

Yeah, and as per usual with Isle balancing, they went too far in the other direction xD

[hidden kettle]

well i think its kinda ok for its dmg. but fighting raptors now a bit harder due to not swing that much 😄

[golden coral]

10% is just too high, for any attack, with how important stamina is, even more so now if it changes if you can get pinned or not. 10% might have been fine for the running version only (because you would rarely if ever use that vs anything that can just trot away from you more or less), then 5% for the standing, 4% for the old jab. That would have been okay.

[hidden kettle]

5 standing / old one sounds fine.
10% for the running power is okay to me, since its that strong atm.

like its not a swing you do all time 😄

[golden coral]

Yeah, that sounds more reasonable, I'd put the old jab down to 4% just to have a difference, it's a total of 5 more jabs than swings, so not a massive difference anyway xD

But yeah, 10% is a very high cost for attacks in general, even more so with new stam and everything else

[hidden kettle]

its expenisve for sure but atm its oneshotting everything thats not a croc /fg steg 😄
if we get a 2.5ton dino im fine with it being lowerd to 7 maybe ? sounds better ? 😄

[golden coral]

Running is fine at 10% for me, just put the basic one down to 5% and the old jab at 4% + being able to use out of stam like any alt attack, and we're probably good.

[hidden kettle]

true

but mean like the power could go down stamwise too if we get more bigger dinos to rebalance a bit maybe

[leaden remnant]

#balance-feedback message this kinda doesn't work

too restrictive to use smth that is turning into essential to use during a hunt

nobody is gonna be on red hp and no stam

forcing you to be on low hp or low stam is not a good idea, only blood should be a req

also stegos will not be pinned if that is the case

[coral wind]

What? Dinos lose stam at a great degree during fights espeacially when litterally bleeding out and losing stam at the same time.

[coral wind]

Pinning is not essential to use during a hunt. Omni's bleed is, Pinning imo should only be usable when the dino is done and cannot fight back any further.

It really doesn't make sense for only bleed to be required either way your gonna die since bleed drains very quickly rn.

Honestly anything over 3 tons shouldn't be able to be pinned to begin with but, I don't know how you got stego not being able to be pinned from what I said.

[leaden remnant]

uh no

i never go below 60%

and camping already invalidates it so we wouldn't be able to use it

[leaden remnant]

uh bleed is here rn to make the prey able to be ipnned

[finite spade]

To be honest, that is the point. It should be more of a finishing move and it will not be possible every single time. Pin is OP as all heck. No counterplay. You are dead. It is a finishing move and NOT an essential part of a hunt. Pounce is essential for raptor.

[leaden remnant]

i know it is a finishing move but it still is essential against stegos and big things

takes 30 mins and 6 professional raptors to bleed out a single stego that isn't camping

[coral wind]

wdym camping? camping a wall? tap pouncing is still very effective. camping water? barely works unless your a stego.

[finite spade]

Maybe stego and big things are not meant for raptors to hunt, then. Or with only great risk. Imho, raptors pinning adult stegos is hilarious already.

[neon willow]

Sorry, it shouldn't take 5 minutes to kill something that took many hours to grow

[leaden remnant]

it is pretty much made to die to raptors

[leaden remnant]

not saying it should take 5 minutes...?

[coral wind]

There's no difference. You will die no matter what you do.

[leaden remnant]

yeah because whoever made it, well, didn't do it quite well

[neon willow]

Said it takes 30 minutes and 6 good raptors to bleed a stego. As it should... If I spent that much time growing I shouldn't die easily to things a lot smaller than me

[coral wind]

I've seen pachy die to 1 omni in less than 30 seconds 1-2 hours down the drain for the poor guy.

[leaden remnant]

a stego that ain't camping

i agree it shouldn't take too little to kill one but it also should be able to be killed

6 professional raptors, 30 mins to bleed out a bad stego that doesn't camp, sounds ridiculous to me

[finite spade]

Comon... 4 raptors weigh 1800kg. An adult stego weighs over 4800kg. Even weakened, an adult stego should not be pinned by raptors, ever if 4 are pounced. They weight like flies to a stego.

[leaden remnant]

what also sounds ridiculous to me is them killing the stego in 5 minutes

but if it has legitimately no predators, that's also stupid

everything should fear something and get away from it at the sight of it

[finite spade]

Stego will have predators.

[leaden remnant]

raptors

[finite spade]

Raptors should not be predators to a healthy adult stego.

[coral wind]

NO 😡 PUE should be pinned

[leaden remnant]

they are made to be its predators

like legitimately built to be the predator of a stego

counters everything a stego has

[finite spade]

Makes no sense, though.

[leaden remnant]

no it makes absolute sense

stegos should completely be hunted down by raptors

[finite spade]

Raptor is a predator to something the size of a teno. Main predator of teno.

[leaden remnant]

no sir

raptors are made, built and designed to kill very big chunky things that are not agile

[frail bobcat]

they are both

[leaden remnant]

a stego is not agile

[frail bobcat]

they can do both well

[golden coral]

What? If anything, stego is made to be the one thing you do not pounce, aside from kentro and anky.

[leaden remnant]

that is also why it has pounce to pin now

to help in killing big things that take too long

[leaden remnant]

no sir quite the opposite

[leaden remnant]

assumption btw

[golden coral]

No, no it's quite literally the other way around if anything

[leaden remnant]

cause if it wasn't it, it would not be advertised as stego deleting

[leaden remnant]

sire how would pounce to pin be to kill hatchling troodons

[golden coral]

Stego should by all right be able to swipe pouncers off its side

[leaden remnant]

we gonna group pin a hatchling troodon

[leaden remnant]

absolutely not sire

[golden coral]

No, stego should be like kentro, untouchable to pouncers, if it was done right

[leaden remnant]

first cause it can't, second cause it means it would have no hunters

[golden coral]

Yes, it should. It literally has the reach

[leaden remnant]

and everything should be afraid of a certain thing

[leaden remnant]

no sire it cant swing that far

it would break its tail if it tried doing that or kill itself

[golden coral]

Yes, it actually can. So yeah, stego should be as untouchable to pouncers as kentro and anky

[leaden remnant]

no sire it would break its tail

or literally thagomize itself while trying

[golden coral]

There's literally no logic in thinking raptors, a flank attacking animal, should attack the one critter that can defend its flanks

Literally every other target aside from anky/kentro would be better

[leaden remnant]

it can't defend its flanks

like not the actual meat

[golden coral]

.... Okay, now you're actually trolling

[leaden remnant]

no sire you're the one trolling

[golden coral]

The one critter that has attacks that covers the entire flanks, can't defend its flanks?

[finite spade]

I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. There are specific sizes a predator will not dare attacking.

Eg.: A Teno vs. raptor weight % seems to be the same as a lion and buffalo. A Stego vs. raptor is more like elephant vs. lion. Sure, if the elephant is weakened by something, then lions have a feast. But no lion will try to fight an adult elephant due to the high risk associated with the enormous weight and size difference.

It isnt just about equipment. In fact, a raptor's claw is made to pin smaller animals than latch onto large animals to bleed them, according to a study.

[leaden remnant]

you're telling me that a stego can magically not break its tail and somehow, without even having the area to do it, kill them

[golden coral]

Like, where's the logic. Compare it to any other playable, that does not have half the reach

[leaden remnant]

im not talking about the area, im talking about the skin

[golden coral]

You don't need to touch your own skin to you know, hit the large omni sitting on your side

[leaden remnant]

aint got the range smh

cant fold its tail like a table like you claim it can

[golden coral]

It does. But even if it didn't, it still can cover the entire flank area far better than any other playable

[leaden remnant]

yes, but not the actual skin

[golden coral]

So no matter how you look at it, stego should never really be prey to any critter attacking the flanks, of which omni is one of those

[leaden remnant]

only the area

no, quite literally it should only be killed by raptors

[golden coral]

... I've no idea what you've had today, but you can not be serious

[leaden remnant]

clunky, slow, etc

[golden coral]

And has reach, which counters that

[leaden remnant]

im dead serious

[golden coral]

Literally the point of that, being anti-agile/speed

[leaden remnant]

no it aint got the reach wdym it would break its tail man

[finite spade]

Thinking the same. Just let them be. Dont feed the troll.

[golden coral]

Like, just look at dibble

[leaden remnant]

speedy agile boi that causes major bleed cant kill smth slow clunky that sucks at defending itself? where's the logic in that?

[golden coral]

Can barely, if at all, defend its flanks

[leaden remnant]

hallucination mushrooms be like

[golden coral]

Reach of the tail

[leaden remnant]

it legitimately cant reach itself with the tail

the bones would fracture

[golden coral]

Doesn't even have to reach itself, it literally reaches out from the flank, covering, in AoE, the sides

... You do comprehend how the tail, both old jab and new swing, has far better reach than a dibble attack, right?

[leaden remnant]

but it literally can't reach itself with the tail

the power swing is itself impossible for a real stego

[golden coral]

Not to mention that if there were any playables capable of reaching their own sides and hitting an omni, stego would absolutely be one of them, far more so than pretty much every other

[leaden remnant]

it would fracture its tail if it even tried doing that irl

it's like claiming a dibble can put its head backwards, yknow, just say we ball and turn it 180 without even moving its neck

[golden coral]

Which is why it's such a bad idea to balance omni for stego, because unless rex and trike are massively changed, they'll have even less ability to defend their flanks

So if omnis can easily take down a stego, they'll shred anything not stego (or anky/kentro)

[leaden remnant]

imma be real rex is the best stego hunter

[golden coral]

At least it would be better than omnis, yes

[leaden remnant]

too low center of gravity to do it

[golden coral]

What?

[leaden remnant]

they're very small so

and a kentro is full of spikes around its body

which is something that stego ain't got, that's why it's impossible to kill a kentro as a raptor

[golden coral]

... You're entirely missing the point there

Stego literally has attacks going out towards/around its flanks, which should by all rights make any pouncer or otherwise speed/agile critter struggle immensely, compared to a trike or dibble even that does not have those kinds of attacks and reach with them, and thus can be hit/run a lot easier and better

[leaden remnant]

thing is my good sir

a stego can't swipe the flanks of its body, it's legitimately impossible

its tail would fracture in like 7 different spots at this point

so it's very vulnerable to small things that attack flanks

it can swipe the area of its flank but not the skin

it's like a firewall, get thru it and everything is yours

but good luck getting thru that firewall

[golden coral]

I don't think it is, but even if it was, that still does not negate any of the other points

[leaden remnant]

it kinda does since your only point is that one

that or i didnt read enough

[golden coral]

I literally mentioned that stego can cover it's flanks as well

You know, the whole attacking the area/out from the flanks, unlike a dibble or any other playable

Which would still mean that anything attacking its flanks would be what it can defend itself against, compared to any other playable

At the point of "can't hit my own sides" it's no more vunerable than anything else, since nothing can hit its own sides, and if stego can't, having actual potential reach, then nothing would be able to

like how bary is shown to rip an omni off

[neon willow]

That's exactly the point Erik is trying to get across... Omnis need to attack the flanks with pounce. Stego's attacks defend the flanks. Sure, once a omni is on its back it can't hit it with the tail obviously. But pouncing a stego is far more difficult in terms of firewall than, say, trike

[leaden remnant]

i know it is, but it can't even get close to its own skin with the tail, so it can't swipe em off

if it tried, it would fracture its tail in ways beyond human comprehension

[golden coral]

You made the argument that stego is "made to be hunted by omni", whereas Im pointing out that no, by all rights stego having the flank coverage makes it not at all designed to be hunted by small/agile flank attackers

[neon willow]

I don't think Erik is saying it should be able to swipe them off. But there's a high risk of them getting impaled before they get on

[golden coral]

And the whole "stego swiping things off itself", is at least far more reasonable than a trike or rex somehow doing it

[leaden remnant]

hm i kinda think i get what you mean

[golden coral]

No, I do think stego should be able to, just like some other critters have been at least in concept shown to do so. And we got JP rex grabbing the raptor after all.

[leaden remnant]

reasonable point in my opinion, however it's very clunky, slow, like punch strong but few times vs smth agile, fast, punch moderately strong but do it too many times

[golden coral]

But even if stego doesn't get to do that, or any other playable gets to, it doesn't change that stegos coverage is far better concerning its flanks than any other playable

[neon willow]

As opposed to for example trike-- if you get around the horns on the front, the side is relatively undefended

[leaden remnant]

of course of course

[golden coral]

Especially any other similarily large and slow critter

[leaden remnant]

i completely agree with it, however it's really slow, which makes it easy

the proof of it being easy to kill is raptors targeting stegos to kill them

well, "easy"

[golden coral]

Yeah, but I blame that on questionable balancing and very clunky attacks. The old jab is still very clunky, and the new one has some strange reach. But that's part of my point of why balancing omni for stego is bad

[leaden remnant]

time consuming, annoying, but the reward is amazing and you don't die if you don't commit mistakes

[golden coral]

Because if stego, with "clunky" attacks, that still have reach, struggles

[neon willow]

I think that speaks more to balance issues and lack of other prey than it being intended

[leaden remnant]

balancing raptor for stego... meh

[slim dragon]

Just here to point out that stego has the most flexible tail of any dino and could realistically touch its own head with it

[leaden remnant]

uh quite literally the opposite

can barely even put it up to ues it

[golden coral]

What do you think will happen with trike/rex, that are even slower, have no reason to be any less clunky (swinging around that heavy head with frill, or big jaws), and have much less reach

[slim dragon]

You're the jack horner of stego

[leaden remnant]

horns

[leaden remnant]

what's a jack horner...?

[golden coral]

Limited to a specific point that can't be moved around very well

Look at dibble, as you said, can't turn its head around

[leaden remnant]

true

[slim dragon]

A paleontologist who made very long essays to prove rex wasn't able to hunt anything out of pure spite

[golden coral]

Anyway, suggestion for pounce to pin is to make use of bleed and apply stamina thresholds to it

[leaden remnant]

im not doing that tho?

i was literally a stego advocate before the new swing??

i literally did not even kill juvie stegos out of pity...?

[golden coral]

So like, under 60% bleed, if you get a full set of omnis on you, you get pinned. Then if you're below 40% (or whatever the stamina threshold is), you require one less omni to pin

[slim dragon]

You're claiming "stego cannot defend itself", "cannot put its tail to use" among other things

[leaden remnant]

never heard something more wrong

[slim dragon]

Imma be honest, idk why grapple should be tied to bleed percentage

[leaden remnant]

i claim that stego can defend its flank pretty well, but, when the "firewall" (tail) is bypassed, good luck

[golden coral]

@leaden remnantIt just seems very odd that you're claiming stego did not have much reach with the tail, when last I heard, its tail was very flexible, and all that

[golden coral]

Yeah well, at least it has a "firewall", unlike rex and trike

[slim dragon]

#balance-feedback-discussion message
#balance-feedback-discussion message

[leaden remnant]

ive heard plenty of times that it ain't flexible at all

[golden coral]

Because it would make sense since omni does bleed, and allo might do it too. And bleed doesn't really do much aside from "recover slower", so we could apply thresholds to it

[slim dragon]

You may be confusing it with anky

[leaden remnant]

and ive also heard paleontologists say reasonable arguments to favor that

[leaden remnant]

sucks at defending itself, can't hit its own skin with its tail

very different from what you claim i said

[slim dragon]

I know what I read, what you were trying to imply is a different thing

[leaden remnant]

sire you do not know what you read if you claim i said it can't defend itself

[golden coral]

So you'd have 60%-40% bleed, can be pinned by full set (5 in the case of stego). 40%-20% - 1 omni needed. 20%-1% -3 omnis needed.

[leaden remnant]

if i say hi and you say i said bye, it doesn't change it, i said hi, same thing here

[golden coral]

Something like that, gives bleed something more to do, and makes sense since omni does primarily bleed

Could also add that the target have to be at wounded status

[leaden remnant]

not a big fan of this

[slim dragon]

If you mean the opposite of what you write it's not my fault for misunderstanding it

[leaden remnant]

imo it should be just blood based

[leaden remnant]

if you read something and think it's the opposite of what i wrote and claim, it's not my fault for you misunderstanding it

don't blame me cause you misread it

[slim dragon]

But that's not the case here
Re-read the messages I linked

[leaden remnant]

it is the case here

i said it sucks at defending itself in the context of against a big raptor pack

i also said it can't hit itself or very close to its flanks by how the tail is made

and you claim i say it can't defend itself and blame me for you misreading it...?

[golden coral]

Not neccesary after all. It would be okay to just use bleed. But I figured bleed made more sense than stamina (since stamina important and it's just not fun to not be able to do anything) while bleed, something omni also does a lot, would tie into it well, and we already have the stamina thresholds. It also means you can pounce, inflict some bleed, then bait target into running (if it's liable to do so) to make the bleed better even without attacking more. And you still have a "minimum" need of omnis (so no solo pinning a stego, no matter how weak it is and so on). Then you can probably apply this to omni weight so you can trade one large omnis for two smaller ones (in cases of pachy, dilo maybe, and so on).

[leaden remnant]

i believe bleed to be the best metric, yes

but also weight, yknow

so you can't pull out a funny and straight up pin a fg carno as a raptor

[golden coral]

Well yeah, though I apply "number" due to number of slots

[leaden remnant]

yus

[golden coral]

But of course, a baby omni is not the same as an adult one, so yes, weight would apply too

[leaden remnant]

yus

[golden coral]

Would also make bleed more scary than just "slower regen", as it was once supposed to be

[leaden remnant]

yus

[halcyon walrus]

why do bepis burn more stam shift swimming than shift sprinting on land?

[alpine plover]

same for pteras... obviously insteading of swimming its flying

[golden coral]

@cobalt dagger I think dibble is, at least from what it seems, meant to handle larger things as well, and not just teno/carno level

[ruby badge]

growth time for dibble should still be reduced slightly. 4 hours seems like a lot when its compared to stego at 5~ hours, despite the drastic weight difference between the two. 3 hours fits it better

[golden coral]

@viscid schooner If bucking was properly powerful, you'd kind of have that anyway, so the basic concept isn't neccesarily bad. You already, in a sense, do have a set time limit, it just so happens to be utterly useless as it stands. But when bucking was actually good, omnis could only stay on for a very short time, and I'm not sure it's a bad thing that you can time your attack to a dismount when timing it to a mount isn't any easier. Since at the end of the day, the only way to end an encounter is to kill the raptors, since they won't just give up because they're out of stam, if they even do end up out of stam at all.

As for what should affect the pounce to pin, blood thresholds, and preferably only blood. Maybe being at wounded status as well if pounce to pin is still too powerful. It really shouldn't rely on stamina, since stamina is utterly vital for being able to do anything, and would only result in either having to cut stamina cost on everything or up regen massively, else you'd just die to pin after barely trying to fight back at all. Unless the stamina is basically 0, in which case it could work. But in general, it'd probably be better to not apply stamina since fights being engaging is kind of fun after all.

[dusky surge]

The counterplay is pre-emptively dismounting

[viscid schooner]

A whole stamina bar is very different from a measly 3 seconds. Bucking should be stronger, but every creature shouldn't swallow an omni's stam bar whole like dilo does. It's basically pointless to pounce a dilo that bucks. Which I think is another issue on its own... because it nullifies a key factor of omni's playstyle. It's a bleeder, and its pounce is how it applies significant bleed. It's a dreadful thing to balance. How do we give the pounced a chance without deleting omni's whole playstyle?

As for pinning requirements, I'd be fine with just a blood threshold. But there does need to be some sort of prerequisite to pinning.

[dusky surge]

dilo buck is how bucking should be lol

[golden coral]

I have to agree, the problem lies in the pounce and how they want it to work. If they weren't so insistent on pounce being the main way of dealing bleed, it could be balanced easier. As it stands, if you make bucking good, you kind of "delete" omnis playstyle, and if you don't, then we get a very unfun engagement for everyone else and possibly even the omnis. But back when bucking was powerful, it wa pretty much around that time, 3-4 seconds, and it did kind of work, just that omnis had to first wear their target out and then pounce. But then we get back to that not being the intended playstyle.

I was thinking of applying the stam thresholds but for bleed. Where it'd be something like under 60% to whatever the next step is (40%? I don't know the stamina thresholds that well), + a full set of adult omnis (for weight values, so you could, for smaller things trade one adult for two subs for their weight combined) = pin. Next step/threshold would then require one less omni to pin, and so on all the way down. So you could go from requiring 5 omnis for a stego, to only three, if it's at the lowest threshold. Meaning you could pin a pachy as one adult omni, after you've bled it a bit.

[dusky surge]

dilo buck is the only buck that actually makes raptors dismount. Everything else is an excessive waste of time and stamina

[golden coral]

While that's true, it does show the "problem" with it. Since the omnis are meant to pounce and inflict bleed, they need to be able to do so. But letting them be able to do so, is just no good for the target. And around we go, more or less.

[viscid schooner]

I guess the hope is that a medium is met, so that it takes some initial effort to wear out your target and whittle down their stamina before going for pounces, as you said. But maybe not so much that raptors can't begin an initial bleed stack to go towards pinning later, if blood % becomes a requirement for it. Number of raptors required being dependent on stats is an interesting idea too

[leaden remnant]

#balance-feedback message imma be real if you want to survive as a solo teno to a raptor megapack i don't know what to say

and the punishments r a bit crazy imo

[leaden remnant]

either group up or face the consequences, it's in the tips thing for a reason

[slim dragon]

Just herd up duh

[dusky surge]

clearly its your fault that your 2 ton animal died to a 450kg animal, because you didn't group up enough

[leaden remnant]

well if you expect to fight off 8 raptors as a solo teno idk what to tell you 💀

if you didn't wanna group up, that's on you, but when you die to 8 raptors don't blame the game blame yourself 🤷‍♂️

[slim dragon]

Actually the teno can use water to escape so it isn't that much of an issue

[slim dragon]

You don't always have the opportunity to group up
Especially if your animal can only survive in groups

[leaden remnant]

wdym

idk 1 call go asking for groups join a vc and ask 🤷‍♂️

how you wanna group up is your decision, but even the game tips say it, group up to increase your survival chances

[slim dragon]

1-calling as a solo is the reason why you get ganged up by 8 omnis

[leaden remnant]

then ask in this discord

[slim dragon]

But rn it's more of a problem with how busted grapple is

[leaden remnant]

go to the migration zone, go search, etc

[slim dragon]

As has always been the case with megapacks

[leaden remnant]

it is busted and im not gonna be the one that says it aint

but i also find it ridiculous to see people expect to get away from 8 raptors that want you dead

it defies all logic of survival, you group up to increase your chances of surviving big carni groups, it's also the reason why i play cera with friends, so that when i get attacked by 3 ceras, at least i have a chance

[slim dragon]

I'd say it's kind of a game flaw tho

[leaden remnant]

it is not even close to a flaw

it is the way it's supposed to work and there's nothing that can be done about that

1+1 will always be 2 no matter how you look at it, and 2 is more than 1, so there you go

[slim dragon]

It's a very demanding survival game that punishes you a lot for getting into unwinnable fights or dying

[leaden remnant]

unless you want to make solo players get a speed boost so they can outrun carnos

the logic of saying "i don't wanna group up i wanna have teh same chances" is what's flawed

[slim dragon]

And every animal is designed to survive any encounter if you play your cards correctly
But packs aren't taken into account whatsoever when considering a creature's survivability

[leaden remnant]

it doesn't take into consideration the fact that 2 is more than 1, so 2 will always overpower 1, either become 2 or suffer being 1

[slim dragon]

If the goal is to have everyone grouped up, then everyone should spawn in a pre-existing group
And creatures should be balanced around group play, which they aren't

[leaden remnant]

raptor is kinda balanced around group play

[slim dragon]

No, only troodon is balanced in the assumption that you'll always be member of a group

Which is, I guess, why omni grapple is so OP rn

[leaden remnant]

wait...

if pounce to pin is balanced assuming that you'll be solo...

major inconvenience

[slim dragon]

Would explain why 1 omni can pin a diablo

[dusky surge]

even troodon works fine solo

[slim dragon]

Yes, but it's still designed around being in a group, because it's ability is almost unusable solo
Oh and I guess galli is too (even though galli can survive solo just fine as well)

In fact, I think small animals will just end up always end up being more viable than large ones
Because if you're a lone raptor against 1 rex, you can run away
If you're a lone raptor against 10 rewes, you can still run away
But a lone rex cannot run away from 10 raptors
And it's gonna be their fault for not grouping up

[vale brook]

#balance-feedback message @polar vine its op on purpose for testing

[alpine plover]

Damn they said that?

[vale brook]

yes

its literally being tuned down next patch lol

[alpine plover]

Right

[cobalt dagger]

I suppose because it's so slow it would need to, but I just can't imagine that it can ever hold it's ground entirely against a rex. I think having it have a lot of power to balance how slow it is makes sense, but for something that gets grabbed by a deino at ANY stage of it's life I'd like to see the grow time shortened.

[cobalt dagger]

@viscid schooner

I don't think there's anything wrong with tap-pouncing except that it's now no longer effective.

While I agree that getting attacked by teno or stego right after your X amount of seconds is over is dumb, I think the solution easily could be to make them 'dismount' and land a further distance away and be safe while dismounting in the same way they are safe while latched.

You mention that raptors should have more agency than being hit for free, but dismounting before you time is up is a form of agency, as well as being careful when and where you pounce is also a form of agency or control. Meanwhile, animals being pinned, because they were smaller than raptor or because they were simply seen by a group of raptors... Have very little agency.

To hit the raptor when they dismount actually takes TIMING at least, I wouldn't call it free-and-easy, and it takes timing to get it right.

[golden coral]

If hitting omnis while pouncing/mounting was more effective and reliable, then safe dismounts would be just fine.

[cobalt dagger]

I feel like safe dismounts are only needed if 'bucking = predictable dismount time'

But in the current state, raptor is really oppressive right now, and if bucking = predictable dismount time, WITHOUT a safe dismount, it could be a form of 'risk' from pouncing.

But I think a slight animation from a missed pounce would be better, as it would then become a matter of tricking omni's and evading and dodging them

[viscid schooner]

My line of thinking is that it's harder for the pounced to predict a dismount when they can't see the pouncer's stam bar. Unless you're very familiar with raptor, you're going to have a much more difficult time guessing when the dismount will be than, for instance, a stego having 3 seconds in their mind and timing their swings evenly enough so that the poor raptor gets impaled when they detach. It happens already with troodons a lot because, while they can stay latched, they're expected to quickly pounce and dismount for stamina conservation. If raptor was designed the same way, dismount camping would become a lot more popular.

If the community wants tap pouncing back, whatever I guess, it worked before. But raptors should be allowed safe dismounts (and troos for that matter) at the cost of a stun for missed pounces. I don't necessarily like the idea of a stun, but it's the best way to add a counter to tap pouncing besides free hits upon detach (which just feels cheap imo)

[golden coral]

Need more risk in the pounce/mount as well if there's to be entirely safe dismounts. It's while the omni/troodon tries to get on the target that the target should be able to hit it and kill it reliably (like any normal attack really). Bucking should ideally be a matter of "you got on, now get off so I can try and hit you again" until the target is worn out (for omnis) or has taken enough damage/effect (this is why troodons need to scale for that matter). If the pouncers get the target sufficiently worn out so it can no longer buck, or successfully inflicts enough damage/effect, then the target dies.

[viscid schooner]

While you're latched you can still get rubbed off on trees/rocks/whatever else in the environment. I don't like the idea of taking damage while latched, because it throws raptor under the bus with things like stego, because it's a one-shot. You also take damage if you get bit upon initiating pounce. This has happened to me several times when a target turns at the last second and bites but I still get the latch. Add a stun for missed pounces... that seems okay to me I guess. The thing with bucking and stam costs is how do you make it so that it's fair to the prey without deleting the omnis' stam bars first so they're forced to tap out of the fight. With dilo bucking, by the time you register that it's bucking, a third of your stamina is gone. So that's just... too much.

Something that occurred to me though is, if tap pouncing is as it was on Spiro, raptors wouldn't be encouraged to stay latched if their bleed didn't increase by time latched anymore, and then why would the pounced buck at all? It would be losing stam a lot slower at that point

[golden coral]

I wasn't talking about taking damage while pounced, just while pouncing (as in flying in the air towards the target). There's a distinct difference there. Basically, you should be able to reliably and effectively hit an omni/troodon in the air as it's pouncing, which should kill it if sufficient damage, or at least give it damage, preferably also stop the pounce and give the same effect as if pouncing the front.

And if you want a deterrent without raw damage, then all the more reason for bucking to be like dilos, so you know, the pouncer has to tap out if it is out of stamina and does not have backup. Because otherwise the pouncers won't go away and thus you're not getting out of the fight.

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeGreat news, stego now have a 3 second cooldown on its power attack as well!

[grand grail]

50% more weight for dibble what?

[golden coral]

Yes, apparently so

[alpine sleet]

why are they buffig diablos hp so much? i thought it was fine already and a solid option, any clues?

[cobalt dagger]

It grows for a long time

If it's going to face up against larger creatures it will probably need it.

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

@median swan you do realise omni can't be 700kg, right?

[median swan]

How much it weight?, anyway it Doesnt matter, i just saying based on weight

[dusky surge]

it weighs 450kg, and pachy weighs 500kg

if omni was 700 and pachy was 400, it'd automatically pin it

[median swan]

Wtf thats stupid

[dusky surge]

anything lighter than omni gets pinned instantly

so if you're 450kg or below, you get pinned

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

I WILL use my 6 hour cooldown to discuss the balance state of animals only I and a handful of other people actually care about while diablo, stego and raptor constantly fight to the death in a perpetual arms race

[distant torrent]

when I played beipi today I definitely noticed the slower surface swim speed. it felt pretty bad lol

[dusky surge]

diving in general feels MUCH better

i'd argue beipi as a whole got buffed, but the surface speed is just bad

[distant torrent]

beipi’s adult breach is still just as pitiful and lacking love as always, and food needs to be placed along the waterways for beipi because the migrations aren’t.. the best

fish spawns and forage spawns also need to be looked at

[dusky surge]

im liking how a lot of smaller, underappreciated animals are getting love

like galli's new trot speed, hypsi actually being an animal that grows, beipi getting its stam buff, troodon getting... a lot

[distant torrent]

(as they should)

[shadow vortex]

I actually don’t get it why beipi should’ve gotten the swim speed nerf alongside with stamina buff, but omni wasn’t changed a single bit when got another strong mechanic uh oh

[dusky surge]

yea idk either

i think giving dryo staggers will help it keep up with the rest of the roster in terms of self-defence against Troodons, and hypsi climb should be something that exists asap lol

[distant torrent]

I still stand by the need for hypsi being able to spit herreras off of trees and causing them to take increased fall damage

[dusky surge]

yes this sounds very funny and i like it

[dusky surge]

@steep warren it most likely has 3k HP

Troodon is the only exception we know of to the weight rule

[fallen vale]

I have long given up on doing balance comments but this one was kind of too big to pass out
#balance-feedback message

[steep warren]

I bloody hope not

[dusky surge]

why not?

[steep warren]

I thought diablo was planned to be a low midtier around teno, carno and cera level, now it's bordering in maia and allo ranges of power

[dusky surge]

i mean... that's probably not an accident lol

also, they probably shouldn't have made the animal so beefy because it looks strange being 1.5 tons yet being THAT big

it's quite possible they want diablo to become an allo matchup

god knows maia wouldn't be a good candidate for that

[fallen vale]

that's a fun idea

[distant torrent]

I’m not sure who first had the idea of it but I do remember someone mentioning it and I liked it so much. it’d bring some more neat interactions to the game

[dusky surge]

it was actually me lol

that's been an idea i've been asking for ages

[distant torrent]

ah lol

it needs to happen 100%

[fallen vale]

👍

[dusky surge]

#balance-feedback message

why is this so condescending lol

[tight cove]

It does have 3k hp because when I logged on a server with my fg
Diablo I was missing some hp and by blood pool was lowered so I had to heal

[steep warren]

God help us

[true ginkgo]

@thick echo dibble on hordetest release was practically filled with helium. it was visually larger than tenonto, while being lighter.

And you can't just endlessly up the speed of creatures without breaking their animations.

Allo and alberto are never going to be slower than dibble. They're far better build for moving while dibble is a beach ball with stubs coming out.

Sure, I'd rather have a 1.5 ton dibble, but i'd want a 1.5 ton sized model to match it.

[dusky surge]

the CONCEPT of allo and alberto being slower than dibble is hysterical

in what universe does that make any sense

[slim dragon]

#balance-feedback message
"stego is OP and can oneshot a carno with a powerswing"
Thank GOODNESS it can

[dusky surge]

the only thing he was right about was carno being horrible at small game hunting (and pachy being underpowered because it is)

also i dont understand why dibble needs to be 2 tons? Clearly there's a reason they did it lol

maybe if the model didn't look like such a behemoth

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter, now you can bait the attack, and get a free, safe hit, because cooldown was apparently needed

[dusky surge]

yup lol

[thick echo]

To be fair I did offer alternative solutions such as letting Diablo out stam both Alberto and Allo on top of opening up its CC capabilities to help it escape as well.

Downsizing the model to 1.5t would be fine. I don’t think what I was asking for was that crazy imo

[dusky surge]

outstamming allo doesn't really sound like an awesome option

[true ginkgo]

I'm hoping that styraco can take on the psuedo mid ceratopsian role.

where irl dibble sits

1.5 ton thing with a big horn. it's much better built for moving fast too

[dusky surge]

tbh, if dibble is

• smaller than allo
• weaker than allo
• less resilient than allo
• slower than allo

but has more stam, i don't think that's enough to be worth playing dibble for

[viral jungle]

dude my biggest complaint i just had was that if the pin function is stamina based...it basically means you can only get a few attacks in before you are literally unable to fight more. For your at risk of being pinned if you get too low. kinda crazy

If youre a cerato pounce to pin elimates your chuff buff..you cant run from your corpse you lose buff you cant stay by it or you get pinned..

[thick echo]

I mean in a herd you will most likely be capable of dealing with Allos. The fact that it would be doing its original 300n damage would still make it a formidable threat especially in a herd. It being able to outstam Allo gives it the option to get to safety before the Allo can catch up.

Hell you could even let Diablo ignore leg shot damage modifiers and let it deal the same amount of damage as a body shot

[dusky surge]

"herd up" argument detected

animal immediately unviable

the moment you need more than one player to survive a single opponent (and i mean literally SURVIVE, not take on), you have officially made a bad playable

[viral jungle]

are you talking about in all instances or this specific matchup?

[dusky surge]

all instances

[viral jungle]

i disagree

carno should destroy utah

cerato should destroy utah

[dusky surge]

and omni has the tools to SURVIVE those animals solo

it is faster than cerato, more agile than carno, and can jump on elevated surfaces

therefor, it can SURVIVE

by escaping the opponent

[viral jungle]

oh i misread that i thought you were talking about 1v1 fighting not surviving

[dusky surge]

i literally emphasised how it was surviving, not fighting lmao

[viral jungle]

as for survivng you should be able to if you know what you are doing but there will always be situations in game where it is unavoidable and you will not survive

[dusky surge]

okay so let's try and avoid those?

[viral jungle]

thats where the player comes in

[dusky surge]

like, make a consious effort to not have one animal die the moment another animal knows it exists

no, that's where balance comes in primarily

[thick echo]

? I don’t think giving Diablo the tools to out last Allo via stamina is really that far of a reach

[dusky surge]

if they made beipi, but it wasn't aquatic and had no good swimming capability, it doesn't matter how good the player is, that thing is dead the moment most predators see it. That's a bad animal, no two ways about it

[viral jungle]

example if you have to cross water or drink, its unavoidable and you have to. yes theres a chance you can survive even if you go to a obscure place. but there is never a gurantee that you will

[dusky surge]

if the allo can just sprint it down, it doesn't really matter in the grand schme of it

allo overall just is the better animal objectively. If diablo's only hope is needing a COLOSSAL headstart or it just loses and dies, then it sucks

[true ginkgo]

omni can instantly dodge and weave into the undergrowth if those start chasing.

[thick echo]

Depends on how big the speed gap is and how far away the Diablo is from the Allo

[true ginkgo]

survive doesn't mean fight

[viral jungle]

when it comes to dibble i assume its whole schitk will be slow but tanky enough that it just face forwards and hopes that whatever comes its way backs off after a few attacks

[true ginkgo]

a hypsi is viable against a rex.

[dusky surge]

so unless this specific situation happens, you lose your... what was it... 4 hour grow?

[true ginkgo]

because the hypsi can dart into a bush or tree

[thick echo]

If you let an Allo get that close to you isn’t that kinda on you?

[viral jungle]

my comment was about fighting not survivng, and yes a utah can weave and bob but thats also situational as sometimes you arent always in a forested areas

[dusky surge]

so unless you're

• significantly out of range of the allo
• able to see the allo
• on full stamina
• near an area where you can retreat (no cliffs allowed)

you die. and all this on top of the fact that allo is an animal that hunts by ambush, thus it's supposed to not be seen or heard. this hypothetical dibble sounds godawfully unplayble and not worth the time to grow when I could be growing the superior allosaurus

[thick echo]

Again we don’t know the speed gap of Allo and Diablo

[viral jungle]

the way sound works in the isle, i doubt anybody will be sneaking as a allo, as atm you can hear from far away pretty well

[viral jungle]

it says legacy allo was like 30km

[dusky surge]

in your hypothetical you've literally said the only way dibble survives is purely outstamming, so that's pretty indicative that allo is of equal speed or faster in this hypothetical

[dusky surge]

don't use legacy speed

nothing translates well from that game

[viral jungle]

its the closest thing we have to what this could be. i assume allo will be slightly faster then stego at like 28 or 29

[dusky surge]

more likely allo will be closer to the 30-40 mark

[viral jungle]

that thing is not hitting 40 or close

sub 30 to very very early 30's

[true ginkgo]

I'm betting on allo being ~39-40kph

[dusky surge]

sounds about right

[viral jungle]

thats the same speed as teno and cerato. allo would be a speed demon

[true ginkgo]

it's a lithe and long legged animal, built to be able to move.

[dusky surge]

yea, it probably will be

[viral jungle]

teno is literally a horse and runs 40km a allo is not build like that

[true ginkgo]

theropod build. those are generally built for moving fast

[dusky surge]

they've shown off EVRIMA allo sprint animation a long time ago

it's fast

[true ginkgo]

sub 30 would put it slower or on par with stego

[viral jungle]

animations dont always align with the speed they actually are

[true ginkgo]

which is literally the slowest dino we know of ever existing

[viral jungle]

stego is like 27 or 28

[dusky surge]

its allo. it is GOING to be fast

it was known in legacy for its speed, specifically its ambush

[viral jungle]

yeah but ambush speed gave it 5 more kmh in the burst from 30 to 35. Theres no ambush speed in this game

[dusky surge]

which means allo will likely be faster to compensate

most EVRIMA animals are faster than their legacy counterparts

[thick echo]

I think you are vilifying what I am saying. I don’t see how it is a tall ask for players to be smart and watch their surroundings to not be ambushed and being able to outlast the predator gives Diablo plenty of solo viability.

The fact I also suggested an increase to its damage and allowing it to ignore leg shot modifiers would be making Diablo do a flat 300 damage on a normal hit gives it a consistent form of damage. Not to mention you could let Diablo cc Allo or Alberto with a charged head swing or a spar stance attack

[true ginkgo]

legacy allo was 34.2 sprint, 44.5 ambush

[dusky surge]

i'm not vilifying what you're saying, i am objectively saying that as a person who plays video games and designs video games, i would not want to ever play something where my goal is constantly being paranoid for ONE specific animal that's EXTREMELY popular because if I don't see it I lose literally over 4 hours of my real life time

[viral jungle]

the reason dibble needs high base damage is because it cant catch anything anyways, so anything its fighting is something that is choosing it as a meal. Its essentially purely defensive unless its cannibals dibbles

[dusky surge]

personally speaking, that sounds not fun to me

#balance-feedback message

this is dejavu

[viral jungle]

there are alot of dinos that people dont like. you dont have to play them, i dont play hypsi, dryo, bird, orbepi as theyre memes. its ok

[dusky surge]

it's not "i don't like dibble", it's "i want my time respected"

[viral jungle]

thats the same argument stego players use when they complain about getting drowned by deino

[true ginkgo]

No animal should be "If you encounter X creature, just tab out and do something else while you die" level of viable.

[dusky surge]

a dibble that can't survive allo without the starts aligning is 3x the meme of those creatures that can actually get away from their threats

[viral jungle]

so you'd rather have a dinosaur that nobody plays and takes up roster space instead of a dinosaur that is 95% viable?

[dusky surge]

that's not comparable because that's the stego being actively punished for doing something it knows can get it killed (swimming across large bodies of water), whereas dibble is passively at constant risk of dying to an allo by just existing

[dusky surge]

yes. because that dibble is not 95% viable, it's just not viable.

also i play ALL of those animals (besides ptera because it's honestly too riskless)

[viral jungle]

it is incredibly viable. I think you may just be clouded on this issue. We will just have to wait and see if it is even allo thats coming and how the matchup works.

[sonic flame]

Oh boy balance feedback discussion, big agree that no animal should ever, under any circumstances, have a "I lose if you see me" matchup unless they're given tools to specifically avoid being spotted

[dusky surge]

okay but here's the thing

if we keep dibble big, NONE of this is an issue

[sonic flame]

Diablo is a pretty poor choice for that sort of thing, since it has no crouch, gets sent to comparatively open zones, and is pretty damn loud

[dusky surge]

also, there's literally no harm in keeping dibble big because it is a big-ass animal

[viral jungle]

dibble is 3tons? whats the issue

[sonic flame]

I mean, technically Diabloceratops is a comparatively small animal, the Diablo we have now is about twice the mass of the largest irl Diablos and roughly 20% larger visually

[dusky surge]

his suggestion is knocking it back down to 1.5 tons and just kinda... letting it die to allos if its seen without herdmates or a 10 second headstart

[dusky surge]

yea, i know, OUR dibble is huge

[viral jungle]

oh what the hell, dude ive been arguing from the viewpoint of thinking you think 3ton dibble isnt strong enough for a allo

[thick echo]

Again I have been offering solutions

• Diablo outstams Allo by 30 seconds or more
• Diablo ignores leg dmg modifiers
• Bring back Diablos original damage it had on HT release

Allos while ambush speed has a ton of variables that need to be kept in mind, how fast is the ambush speed boost? How long does it last? Does it increase stamina drain l?

There are a plethora of variables we need to keep in mind

[viral jungle]

isle moment

[sonic flame]

A 1.5 Ton Diablo could totally fight off an Allo it just needs to not, you know, be bad

[dusky surge]

Oh absolutely not lmao

[thick echo]

I thought you were in favor of 1.5t Diablo and believed it could be viable alongside Allo and Alberto?

[dusky surge]

Depends how big we're making the allo, given that the same allo is seen grabbing cerato and pinning it

and that cerato is only 200kg smaller than the 1,5 dibble

[viral jungle]

1.5ton dibble is tiny it has problems dealing with alot

[sonic flame]

I do like me a 1.5 ton Diablo - if the model matches that mass and everything else lines up too, but also Diablo even at 1.5 tons is a pretty poor choice for a stealthy playable imo given the aforementioned lack of tools to help it stay hidden

[sonic flame]

Weight isn't that big of an issue, since stability modifers exist and could be adapted to Allo

[thick echo]

? I have not said anything about making Diablo sneak around just playing smart and watching your surroundings?

[viral jungle]

with how quick movement is in this game and all the mechanics dibble definetly needs its weight

[sonic flame]

So a Diablo rushed from the side? Sure, pin it. From the front? Treat it as idk, 3 tons, why not, now it isn't pinned

[dusky surge]

i think making dibbles constantly paranoid because if an allo enters its space it dies is not really great for gameplay enjoyment

[thick echo]

that is an exaggeration

[dusky surge]

that is literally what you are suggesting

[thick echo]

Having to watch your surroundings from time to time isn’t a tall ask

[sonic flame]

I know, I'm just mentioning that animals too slow to run and too weak to fight should be at least good at hiding. A 1.5ton Diablo that relies on out-stamming Allo, rather than turning to fight it, is gonna be really pushing the upper bounds of what can reasonably be done with the animal's speed, and would want to have strong stealth traits to help it see the Allo before the Allo sees/hears it and closes the distance

[dusky surge]

If you have NO chance of escaping once that thing is in the "danger zone" around your animal, and you die, then yes, it's a tall ask

i dont have the agility, speed or power to get that allo off me if it gets the first bite, so I am now a dead man

[sonic flame]

My ideal 1.5 ton Diablo is one that can handle an Allo in a 1v1 as long as it keeps its horns pointed at it, I feel like that works better for it than trying to push the speed high enough to get it comperable to Allo

[dusky surge]

and having excess stam doesn't help when the fight will be over in seconds

[thick echo]

You are ignoring the fact I suggested combat buffs indom

[sonic flame]

I feel like if you're suggesting a combat buff that kind of removes the need for evasion, no?

[glass spruce]

can teno stun diablo now?

[dusky surge]

probably not

[thick echo]

No the thing is I offered multiple solutions.

• being faster outside of ambush speed
• more stamina
• bring back first pass HT Diablo damage
• let Diablo ignore damage modifiers on the legs of animals so it does the same as body shots

Heck even making it so allos can’t grapple it from the front and take damage if they try would be good also

[true ginkgo]

I don't mind 1.5 ton or 3 ton dibble, as long as the model matches its weight personally.

Black hole dinos and helium balloon dinos are immersion breaking

[sonic flame]

Your suggestion is missing the nuance of a lot of those

[thick echo]

I don’t like 3t Diablo because it completely kills off a great addition to the psuedo mid roster

[thick echo]

Then can I ask what you would suggest?

[true ginkgo]

I'm hoping styraco can fit here. 1.5 tons and more zoomy and agile than dibble.

[viral jungle]

@eternal tinsel Pinning should not be stamina based, if it is then it limits the dinosaurs ability to fight back or even buck before its drained and just gets pinned

[glass spruce]

why teno cant stun diablo

[dusky surge]

^

[sonic flame]

Clarify the speed increase is relative to any possible "ambush" mechanics that Allo/Alberto may get

Propose the leg damage modifier idea in the actual suggestion, since it isn't in there

Make it clear that these are multiple mutually exclusive choices to be made instead of a laundry list of buffs

[dusky surge]

because teno is much smaller

[thick echo]

I see, should I just make a new suggestion then or edit my recent one?

[dusky surge]

i dont like 1.5 ton dibble because it'd have to be made of literal helium to weigh that little given how much bigger it is than basically everything that isn't apex-level

[true ginkgo]

Putting styraco where irl dibble is for size allows dibble to keep its nostalgia sized niche.

while also providing a nice psuedo mid which irl sized dibble would have filled

[viral jungle]

idk guys i think a 3ton dibble is not that bad, its slow enough to not catch anything and its big enough to provide resistance to anything that comes its way

[dusky surge]

i haven't had a problem with it yet

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, it can now hunt stegos

[dusky surge]

a pack of omnis can still take one down, it's an excellent target for them

[dusky surge]

ah

[viral jungle]

3 tons rewards carnivores with tons of food and diet for hunting one

[golden coral]

But that's probably more so because stego just isnt allowed to be good, it has to be the worst playable ever more or less

[true ginkgo]

main issue with 3 ton dibble is its flipping still seems to be 2x mass.

So it can literally toss stegos onto their sides

[viral jungle]

I'd have to see what the issue is, but just from what i know im sure a stego can clap a dibble easily

[golden coral]

It's fine, don't you know stego is OP and deserves everything

[dusky surge]

god it's so lame what they keep doing to stego

[golden coral]

... It can knock stego over... that's the issue in the first place

[dusky surge]

thing CANNOT be good

[viral jungle]

that can be changed by them just adjusting values not a huge deal imo

[dusky surge]

i almost considered playing it, but The Isle talked me out of it again lol

[golden coral]

Sure, if they do change it, but for now, it's rather terrible

[viral jungle]

i only ever grew stegos for the purpose of deino fishing at oasis

[sonic flame]

Editing I think would be fine

[golden coral]

Of course, that's just on top of everything else garbage about stego now

Meanwhile, "para should run from allo" is apparently too much

[solar folio]

Tbh I'd like smol 1.5t dibble because it kinda would be a good addituon to the current small roster
But I agree it's more important to keep a thing viable
So if we're not getting a dibble overhaul I guess 3T dibble is better than a useless one
However it puts it in stego-like position "too big for current roster" so dibble is risking to be nerfed awfully

[sonic flame]

How'd you feel if it were downsizes to an appropriate scale for tha mass?

[dusky surge]

2-2.5 tons I can agree to

[viral jungle]

idk, i think we are on the cusp of bigger mid tiers coming in to help fill out the stego apex spot

[dusky surge]

see para ISN'T stego therefor deserves rights

[true ginkgo]

to be fair, rex and trike coming this way real fast rn from the sounds of it

and rex/trike kinda uncap the roster size limits

[viral jungle]

Question is how fast is rex? ive heard theyre long distance endurance hunters

[dusky surge]

it is literally a meme to hate stego, so much so it's bleeding into the actual gameplay. Thing gets one good thing, then gets thrown down a flight of stairs

the 3 second cooldown is just literal salt in the wound after that 10% stamcost thing

[true ginkgo]

irl they might have been endurance animals. In games they're clasically ambush animals.

shoot out a bush and big cronch.

[dusky surge]

i like the fact it now choreographs its attacks, but that's on top of LITERALLY everything else

[golden coral]

I really do want trike and rex in, so people can be as angry about them as they are about stego

But of course, those will be excepted, just like deino has been

[thin mantle]

If stego is anything more than a training dumby for anything else that requires more brain activity to successfully hunt balance is ruined

[dusky surge]

i still have money on the fact that trike and rex will be accepted as such, whereas stego will continue to be hated

look at deino

[true ginkgo]

People will cheer for a day as rex/trike wipes out stegos.

Then stop cheering when rex/trike oppress twice as hard as stego ever did

[viral jungle]

My vote is on 27kmh rex so that stego is in constant fear of the rex 20 feet behind it at all times unable to catch up

[golden coral]

They cheer for diablo doing that right now, so yeah

And yeah, people go "stego run things down", well, dibble is faster at adult, and it can do even worse now

[dusky surge]

stego being in constant fear sounds about right

[thin mantle]

They don’t understand that a stego camping a corpse is significantly better than a rex eating the corpses it steals

[golden coral]

Let's see how long they'll excuse that because dibble isn't stego

[true ginkgo]

I'm betting on ~38kph rex, but insanely low stam. Like only a few seconds.