balance-feedback-discussion

[keen plover]

Stuns on headshots are fine imo. Which is like the last thing you'll get on Carno. So carno players don't walk up to groups of pachys and think they have no chance of actually dying

[vagrant coyote]

Then maybe start at 5% self damage and increase by about 2-4% per hit due to fatigue?

[hasty coyote]

exactly, its easy to dodge a headshot, but if theres like 3+ skilled pachies, they will maul you

[keen plover]

Yeah. I'm fine with that personally. I don't want pachy to be looked at as an easy meal with no risk of dying

Well, 1 v 1, you'll slaughter it

If it keeps coming back

[hasty coyote]

(unless theres a massive skill issue)

[keen plover]

Even 2 v 1 honestly

[dusky surge]

i dont really know about the headshot thing, because then that leads to people missing the head then complaining that they died for missing the head, relying entirely on things ending out perfect. More than likely, pachies would still retreat from a carno, even with the head stagger

[keen plover]

Eh, lets say they keep running towards you, it leaves it to where a group of pachys will make the Carno avoid it, rather than the Carno player blindly rushing in without it. Cause I can say with 100% certainty, without the headshot stun, I'm just going to keep running in and killing the pachys with no fear

[hasty coyote]

Exactly, you should still generally retreat, but you have the opportunity to kill it or at least severely would it if it keeps trying to fight. Plus, who cares if people get over ambitious and die, its like saying we should buff omni because people want U5 omni back.

plus, if the pachies already have a head fracture on it, then missing even like 2-3 rams and tanking hits would still be fine.

[keen plover]

Also, that's a solo Carno. 2 - 3 Carnos should be something a group of 8 pachys try to break their bones and run

I'm just interested to see how this would work in practice. If it's bad, then yeah, it can be removed.

I do agree that current Pachy is not the way to go though

[dusky surge]

also, tbh, i just... don't see why pachy or omni really need to be killing carnos that much

the need for small game to kill their primary predator is bizarre to me

teno needs to be more threatening to a carno

pachy needs to be less threatening

[keen plover]

It would be severely reduced with those changes tbf. Also, I don't want it where Carnos are always safe around pachys. Yeah, the 1 v 1 is BS. imo 3 v 1 is bad as well. But if there's a large group of them, or a small group that is skilled, that solo Carno that engaged with them should die.

[hasty coyote]

Again, with our suggestion, you generally will be running away. However, if the carno keeps pressuring or ran into a 1v8, then it deserves to be punished. Otherwise, as I said, why shouldn't a carno just charge into an entire herd of pachies with no threat?

[distant torrent]

carnos can easily pick their encounters unless its another carno. everything else they can easily outrun if outmatched

ofc if they didn’t pull a smooth brain and waste all their stam beforehand ^

[keen plover]

The Carno still has a chance to win (by escaping or killing any aggressive pachy) though, mind you. It just takes the Carno player to have a brain and avoid being hit on the head. Obviously, if the pachys are all around you, then yeah, you've messed up.

[dusky surge]

mids and above should be aware that a carno really isn't much threat at all to them, more scared about their children than themselves. the carnivores would generally try to wait for carno to exhaust itself and let its guard down to attack

pseudo-mids like cera, magy, teno, kentro, diablo, bary and so on should be fine with carno, and confident in their ability to keep one away and take it down, but aware that in groups or using competent combat styles, one can still be a threat

dilo, and anything smaller, should generally fear and respect carno, because it's sprinting death to them.

[hasty coyote]

like, should pachy be unable to kill omni because omni is a predator? Should stego be unable to kill a rex because rex is it predator? Or even the example I know you dislike: Should deino be forced out by spino without a chance to kill it?

[dusky surge]

i never implied any of this but sure

pachy should obliterate omni

that should never change

[hasty coyote]

yeah, and pachies will have to respect it, a single charge and 2 bites before it can stand up and pachy is dead. Carno is still a massive threat, but just because someone is playing carno doesnt mean they should be invincible to 4 players that equal its weight

[keen plover]

Yeah pretty much that

[hasty coyote]

^this is where you implied it. Just because its a predator, doesnt mean some of the most threatening small game should be free targets. Something like dryo, hypsi, whatever else that isnt made for combat, sure, those guys should run for their lives. However, pachy is still a major threat, while it may prefer to just break and run, pushing your luck against a whole pack should be punished accordingly.

[dusky surge]

the difference between stego killing rex and pachy killing carno is really obvious though. Stego has no other way to stop the rex from pursuing besides killing it, or beating it so badly it has to retreat. If the rex wants, it can keep following the stego. Pachy can end the chase in a single charge, and the carno can't pursue, and if it tries, you can hit it with another charge

each fracture deeply impacts the carno's ability to hunt and keep track of the prey. With all three fractures, you have literally zero way to continue hunting effectively

it's like if anky players could run down rexes and kill them

[keen plover]

tbf though, they should if the rex messes up

But with pachy, a group of them should imo still be a threat to a SOLO carno. Not the kind where you give it fractures and it runs off. No, the kind where you can die

[distant torrent]

risk and reward. if a carno ambushes the pachy with a ram, its done for. if the carno wants to be dumb and try to face tank it, it deserves whatever is coming to it

[dusky surge]

you cant really do that in a way that isn't weirdly inconsistent, keeps the interaction as is (horrible) or some other way

[keen plover]

You quite easily can though. Landing a charge on the head is tough unless the Carno player is trying to run face first at a creature. If you're trying to escape, you will get away / have the ability to retaliate.

The pachys main threat, the stuns, won't be there to protect it, so every time they charge you, you get a free hit

[hasty coyote]

yes and that is why, unless it decided to run into a herd of pachies, it will get out scott free and just heal up. But if 1 carno runs into a herd of 4 pachies and they are able to punish it for being careless, I don't see the issue. even then, carno still has a good chance of surviving if it plays right and protects its head. Literally the only way pachy would be able to kill a carno is if there is a skill gap between them.

plus, if you go the other way, what is to stop a pack of carnos or even a single carno from repeatedly going after a pachy group without the pachies being able to do anything to stop them?

[keen plover]

So no more 1 - 2 Pachys cleaning you up. They simply don't have the HP for it

[dusky surge]

fractures

[hasty coyote]

wait 2 mins to heal and go right back at it like nothing happened

[keen plover]

I mean, the Pachy's could run in the situation

[dusky surge]

if you aren't gone in 2 minutes wtf are you doing

you can't even heal a leg fracture standing anymore

[keen plover]

Yeah

[hasty coyote]

they are, but the carno can just catch back up while the pachies eat or get stamina. Or better yet: nesting.

[hasty coyote]

(except thats bugged and I have had carnos heal it without sitting down right in front of me)

[dusky surge]

here's a concept, while fractured, blunt damage done to an already fractured part will be translated to raw damage, making the hit a lot more painful

no stuns

just lots of damage

[keen plover]

hmmm honestly, that's actually not a bad idea

[dusky surge]

with a group, you can pile on the damage and retreat, while the carno could still hit you

or teno could just slam the hell out of you

[keen plover]

That's a good alternative. It keeps it where you can always fight back as the carno, but they deal more damage. So numbers can be a threat. You halve its damage as well with head fracture, so 6 bites to kill a pachy

👍

[dusky surge]

as a solo pachy, you probably won't get that level of damage before the carno kills you

but as a group, that damage would be a lot scarier

[hasty coyote]

that could work, I just don't want carnos to just have the mindset of "well theres no consequences to fighting a pachy or a whole herd of them so I might as well just run it down"

[keen plover]

Same. I play a lot of Carno and I genuinely hate how Pachy beats on Carno currently, but I still want there to a be a threat if I do mess up

[obtuse ocean]

Why ? I mean carnos are like twice as big? Some fights you wanne avoid/hide/run away from.

[slim dragon]

Tiered stuns still a better idea imo

[keen plover]

Yeah, maybe a small group of pachys, but you should definitely get beat if you go up to a herd and try to fight it

[obtuse ocean]

Yea a herd for sure

[high moth]

@vernal girder i dont think a debuff for not moving is a good idea for deino. he is a ambush predator and should be standing still till something is close to water. giving him a debuff for doing his purpose would be just unfrair

[alpine plover]

@sturdy wagon yeah I figured

[hasty coyote]

And that would generally be the best idea, but if the carno gets too ambitious or keeps pushing when it should back away, a group of pachies should still be able to punish it. Otherwise there’s literally no threat of pachies and no reason to just keep attacking any sized herd once you heal the fractures.

Solo pachy may not a threat, but 4 should be a death sentence if you think you can just face tank 1v4 without worry.

[hasty coyote]

@analog mirage, I wouldn’t take all the cost off dodge, otherwise it just spams forward dodge to go faster. Though I would prob lower it to like 2-5%

[analog mirage]

2-5 would be fine

[sick vine]

I would like a base runtime increase to dryo and dodge stam cost lowered. ATM dryo is pretty awful

[small herald]

More nerfs to dryo. My fresh spawn carno couldn't insta kill it it needs dmg, speed and health nerf.

[sick vine]

true, dryo should start with a leg broken i think.

[bright oasis]

Dryo should start as a dead body

[neon willow]

Yeah clearly dryo's only purpose is for players who enjoy feeding other players. They need to be weak enough that a blinded, half dead deino with a broken leg can catch them

[humble heart]

They need a burrowing system mechanic. Not only would it help them survive it would be so fun to make small burrow systems that requires stam to dig further with

[dusky surge]

thats already like, a planned thing

[humble heart]

I know

[golden coral]

@stone gardenStego is the one animal that is anti-flank by design. There is nothing wrong with its hitbox, and the head has a 2x multiplier, so it is very much vunerable, more than anything elses head. But you're asking for a change that would make stego not a stego any more, having to turn to use the tail when it's the one critter aside from anky and kentro that does not have to move due to the reach of said tail, which is the main strength and point of it. You're not supposed to be able to flank a stego, it's literally designed against that.

[slim dragon]

Remove stego's tail

Make its head a 100x damage multiplier

And its body too so it can be properly flanked

[golden coral]

I just find that feedback to be so strange, it's asking for a stego to play like a trike or something. Maybe anky shouldn't have armor or something either :p

[slim dragon]

If omni ends up not being able to solo anky you can be sure people will ask to nerf it

[thin mantle]

@dusky surge It's bizarre that the omni coalition hasn't nuked your post yet, perhaps they're all west american and sleeping rn....only time may tell.
Oh, and you know I think this, but you're entirely correct

[dusky surge]

im honestly surprised too

i was waiting for an uprising

[thin mantle]

Considering the relatively consistent 20-50 upvotes for pro omni buff posts having died down over the last couple weeks...I can't say I'm too surprised...perhaps they lost patience and returned to mid update hibernation

[dusky surge]

i legit love omni

it pains me to see it in the current state, but that's more a tale of them being downtrodden by far superior animals

[thin mantle]

Comparing athletes to demigods

[dusky surge]

i literally use teno as a balance metric atm btw

[thin mantle]

Teno usually remains consistently unproblematic so I can see why, plus it's got such well designed attacks that make it so easy to stay that way

Like it's the only animal next to stego that physically cant use it's attacks aggressively, if you catch my drift

[dusky surge]

teno is quite literally what everything else should be balanced around. i fully believe in the tenonto standard

[thin mantle]

So do I

[dusky surge]

if it has a decent matchup with tenonto, it's probably well designed

every single animal in the game (besides stego, hypsi, dryo and deino) are within a size range where an engagement with tenonto should go both ways

[thin mantle]

Tbf everything SHOULD be capable of filling teno's place in that standard but...well..not everything can be great I suppose

[thin mantle]

And the super smalls, but they aren't relevant to teno anyway, and neither is stego really...deino on the other hand..

[dusky surge]

the super smalls are not even combat oriented, so it's fine

[thin mantle]

Mhm, they get a pass

[dusky surge]

the apexes are apexes, whatever

when troodon drops, a lot of my final thoughts will be based on its matchup with tenonto

omnis should destroy them, i really dont care if troo is easily predated on by omnis

[thin mantle]

I still want them to be survivable but choosing to fight in that engagement should result in death

[dusky surge]

yea

obviously

[thin mantle]

I figured that's a given

[dusky surge]

the most telling matchup should be troodon swarm vs teno imho

[obtuse ocean]

What about a pack vs a omni

[dusky surge]

pack should probably get obliterated tbh

especially in day

[thin mantle]

I can't imagine an omni being pressured into stationary defensive gameplay, which is something troodons sorta rely on...same with omni to a degree...which is why they suck against carnos

plus troodon apparently requires more precise timing aside from just capitalizing on openings

[dusky surge]

i dont like how people are trying to force omni into killing carnos. Same how I think pachy so consistently killing carno is stupid too

[obtuse ocean]

So troodons good vs big guys then ?Cus it needs something

[dusky surge]

its not going to be good against carno, that's obvious

[thin mantle]

Well...to an extent it can't be, since troodon's hunting style would render most defenses for larger animals redundant...especially since venom is a huge equalizer

[dusky surge]

omni is also a no-go

i'd imagine trying to hit troodon with the tail as stego would be like trying to swat flies, not really easy given how quick and small they are

especially if the troodon can ambush you repeatedly from the dark

[thin mantle]

And that's not to say X animal having a strength that goes well against Y animal is a bad thing ofc...just that no large animal has the dexterity or attack speed/precision to kill them

Which means they'll prolly be balanced into irrelevance vs those animals, as do most smaller predators

Most of troodons actual "large" potential targets, like dibble, maybe magy, cerato, etc, won't be in the game for a bit so it may go through an awkward phase

[dusky surge]

you also have to remember that troodon is situationally quite powerful

at nighttime and with packs, its much better

[thin mantle]

It's the same as omni only...much more applicable in this regard

[obtuse ocean]

Yea ,but i mean they need to be good at something. Either good vs smaller stuff in packs, like dilos/omnis etc. Or will they be strong vs something bigger

[thin mantle]

It's not based on a stacking status effect value as much as it is a numerical goal of injection over precise times

[dusky surge]

we dont know exactly what venom will do

im assuming the venom will be unlike bleed, due to its precise timing, and will be more based on insanely high ramping damage, but you need to have precise timing, making faster and more agile targets harder to deal with

[thin mantle]

Well...if it's necessary for them to be relatively low on the relevance scale so other animals can survive, then that's kinda what needs to happen...it's one of the issues fast and agile animals have with balancing, they have so much authority to whom they engage, meaning their abilities need to be balanced around every other ability in the game (and their stats, mobility, etc) instead of being able to get away with "this animal can escape this animal, so it doesn't need to be considered how it would fight it all that much"

[obtuse ocean]

Yea true, but omnis can also hunt/chase prob 90% of the rooster if we added 30 new dinos today

[thin mantle]

Mhm, which is why adjusting omni around those animals would be better than adjusting all of those animals around it, as altering it's capabilities is a far more efficient fix than giving every animal a unique counter to it specifically

[dusky surge]

considering troodon heavily relies on pack coordination, timing and night settings, i'd imagine it has the upside of being REALLY good if everything goes perfectly, but falls apart with less team members, be they simply not present, or killed in a fight

[obtuse ocean]

Yea i agree on that, filipe actually mention some of the same in one of his streams.

[thin mantle]

My main contention with that being how...well...every player is sorta at the whim of a troodon breeding group deciding it wants to commit mass genocide one night...

[dusky surge]

i mean, one hit = death with it

its not a very powerful animal

and messing up the timing apparently will reset venom stacks

[thin mantle]

Which I'd imagine wouldn't matter much given their large numbers and slow attack reactions from a lot of the animals, both in game now and in the future

[obtuse ocean]

But as far as i remember it was about timing the venom ? You need to hit in a certain amount time, if you dont. The venom goes away.

[dusky surge]

yea

[thin mantle]

Like baiting attacks would be substantially easier on troodon than it would be on omni, as most of the time you're not going to see the troodon before it's basically right next to you, and it's a smaller target, and may quite possibly turn faster as well...making a split second judgement of whether that troodon actually intends to pounce you or not, is sorta irrelevant when 4 other troodons are coming at you at the same time

Ultimately I just want them to go about it VERY carefully

It's such an easy animal to make way too powerful

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but then the question is. Why would i want a pack? If its about timing

[thin mantle]

baiting mostly

Granted you literally only need 2 for that

[obtuse ocean]

Yea exactly

Less people less mistakes etc

[dusky surge]

it might not be able to stack venom on the same animal twice itself

[thin mantle]

more troodons just adds insurance, but also more factors to manage

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh thats a good point

[thin mantle]

I sincerely doubt that but I wouldn't be opposed to something like that

[golden coral]

I think something was said about only having so much venom for every troodon, and needing to stack the venom might mean you need more troodons to have the quantity of venom available in a reasonable time.

[dusky surge]

that sounds really interesting

[thin mantle]

Ideally that scales with the creature being effected

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh yes yes, good points

[dusky surge]

i actually am a big fan of that

[thin mantle]

Like a stego would take like...10 pounces for a single application or something like that...the number is arbitrary just that that's the principle we'd be working with

Which I think is way better than just..having access to your venom at all times

Just wait till we get a dietary combination that effects venom regen

[obtuse ocean]

lol yea, but troodons should be pack hunters.

[dusky surge]

yea, obviously

[thin mantle]

Or rather, they should HAVE to be

[obtuse ocean]

I hope im not gonna go like, let me try 1v1 this rex

[thin mantle]

Or even something like a pachy or teno

Like...that shouldn't be reasonable

[obtuse ocean]

Yea same

Wonder if we can choose perks, and have better venom resistance etc

[dusky surge]

its possible

[thin mantle]

I'd rather not

[dusky surge]

perks seem more geared towards the individual animal than a general thing though

[thin mantle]

Ideally

[dusky surge]

like according to dondi, he's got a system planned for a dryo perk which impacts its dodge ability

[thin mantle]

Oh really?

Hmm, sounds neat

[dusky surge]

mainly that he wants dryo dodge on a meter alternate to stam, and the perk could increase the amount of dodges you can perform before that meter runs out

[thin mantle]

Oh, that's kinda lame

The perk, the idea of a meter isn't really that bad

[obtuse ocean]

ooo

[thin mantle]

Thought it might effect more of dodges function than just how many you can do

[dusky surge]

i mean, that was only one of the perk ideas

we dont know what else will be done

[obtuse ocean]

Only bad thing is that normally when locked to a dino, its so obviously what people take.

[dusky surge]

but it does seem that perks will be more species-based than just a general buff for all animals in the same stats

[thin mantle]

Certainly there can be more ofc, just that on it's own sounds so, plain

[obtuse ocean]

It would be hell if perks starts changing dmg/stam/speed etc. You can run away from one, but the other one catches you etc : P

[thin mantle]

Yeah those are just...bad...even with counterbalancing you just render every experience with a creature frustratingly random

Specifically in regards to what that animal can do

Like you'd at bare minimum need VERY easily recognizable visual ques for what that animal is perked towards...and even then i still find that terrible

[dusky surge]

they said they wont do that tho

[thin mantle]

Thankfully

[dusky surge]

so its chill

[obtuse ocean]

ahh good!

[obtuse ocean]

lol yea

[obtuse ocean]

Hey, carno vs omni whats wrong with that power gap ? I have zero problem with carno in dense areas. In the open i should get oblivated by a carno if i dont see it coming.

[dusky surge]

carno literally has the hitbox of the sun

[obtuse ocean]

Ohyea the hitbox is off

[dusky surge]

it also has an insane level of damage

not to mention the fact there's no punishment for spamming

[obtuse ocean]

You mean like spam bites ?

[dusky surge]

spam charge

i'm talking exclusively about charge

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, hitbox is off. But how the charge was before. It was useless, unless you perfectly timed it. If missed i could never use it again.

[dusky surge]

im not arguing it should go back

i never once said i wanted it reverted, because that'd be horrible

[obtuse ocean]

True

Im still off with the buck, cus its so easy to make omni OP. They already are in speed/stam/agility(as they should) atleast in the future when more playables are in. Cus whatever im attacking also have a split second to react to my attack as omni. Why shouldt omni also have fast time to react to bucking.

[keen plover]

It isn't about being fast. Currently, it chunks your stamina away. While it should imo, be a consistent value, like running.

[dusky surge]

i dont want the buck nerfed

[keen plover]

So while it is as fast as the chunk, you'll have a better visual cue.

[dusky surge]

i only want it to be better conveyed when you're losing stam

[obtuse ocean]

ahh yes i also want that

[obtuse ocean]

Ahh, yea i agree on that

[dusky surge]

@orchid prairie if teno has a 50/50 with both carno and cera, it's inherently a very bad animal

brawler herbivores like teno should have a generally higher win ratio in a 1v1 with their predators, especially if their predators can outrun them. Teno cannot outrun a carno, it loses the ability to control the engagement, so it must have the higher power in said engagement to compensate

If it's a 50/50, carno both controls the engagement and can choose its pace, making it inherently in the favour of carno

[orchid prairie]

carno isnt meant to brawl

its an ambush predator not a fighter

[dusky surge]

i never said it was meant to

teno is the brawler, not carno

the issue is carno has speed, therefor it has the inherit advantage of being able to control the pace of the fight, when the fight happens and if it wishes to continue fighting

teno can't do that because the carno can always make chase

[orchid prairie]

a bad animal is an animal whos unable to defend or escape from other animals. teno will not be able to escape a carno theoretically but it should be able to defend itself which is why it should be an even 50/50 if they encounter 1 another if carno pulls of a successful ambush that puts the teno in a disadvantage but its not the end of the world. but if a carno fails an ambush and gets kicked or tail slammed by the teno then its the same scenario the carno is in a disadvantage. an even 50/50 means a fight could go either way if a teno is aware of its surroundings then a carnos ambush will be more difficult. carno does control a confrontation but that doesnt mean it cant make mistakes and it should be punished for those mistake which is why it should be a 50/50. also what fun is it if one playable has an advantage over another when its more balanced and fun when they have an even chance to win

[dusky surge]

it should be a 60/40 at least, on the side of a teno

a 50/50 isn't at all fair for the teno

[golden coral]

Eh, not an ambusher at all, it's not designed for that. Think more of a "I will run you down and end you", makes more sense for carno. But teno can fight off a carno, and with some adjustments to charge, it'll be fine. Same with cera if those adjustments are done most likely. But 50/50 seems oddly specific to use.

Honestly, teno and cera would not be ideal targets for a charge, more so charge plus then "brawling", preferably in a team of carnos perhaps.

[dusky surge]

(if they reduce the knockdown threshhold, carnos wouldn't literally run headfirst into every teno/cera fight they saw)

[golden coral]

Tenos can still defend themselves at that, given good timing on tail slam or terrain use.

But charge do need some tweaks.

[dusky surge]

god forbid we get a little bit of dynamic combat with carno rather than "ram then repeat" gameplay

[orchid prairie]

the charge is specifically designed for ambush attacks

[golden coral]

No, not at all. It is terribly designed for that.

[somber sphinx]

With it’s new ram I’d love if carnos charge got a dmg nerf and couldn’t knock down teno and cera sized animals

[orchid prairie]

nono its an ambush attack, its what carnos playstyle is intented for

[golden coral]

Teno gold standard. More use of different attacks for different purposes and at different points in time during the engagement.

[dusky surge]

no it isnt

[somber sphinx]

It isn’t really

[dusky surge]

its now been redesigned as a far more pursuit-oriented attack

it was also always a horrible ambush attack

[somber sphinx]

Plus’s charge is such a garbage ambush mechanic

[dusky surge]

also, NOTHING about carno implies ambusher

[golden coral]

No. No not at all. There is very little, if anything, that speaks to carno being ambush based, when it's fast, large, loud, had a startup that required both distance and speed (and a noise on activation), in an environment with little to no cover and against things that are small, fast, agile, and skittish. The charge was not at all good for "point blank" attacks from a hidden spot, unlike pounce, lunge, even ram.

[dusky surge]

it lives in the wide open plains, focuses on running at high speed and catching up to fleeing prey, and aims to stop prey so it can land hits

[orchid prairie]

watch peskys balance video it does a great run down of how the current roster should be balanced stat and playstyle wise

[dusky surge]

no

i've seen it, and i heavily disagree with most of his points

especially the egregious take of a carno killing stegos, something clearly made out of a complete bias towards carno

[orchid prairie]

stego should be huntable by carno

[dusky surge]

it really should not

what part of stego is small game to you?

could you imagine how pathetic stego would be against a rex if even a carno could hunt it?

and yea, i get it, "stego bad, nerf stego, hate stego" mindset, but carno has literally zero place hunting it

[orchid prairie]

dude if you let yourself get bit on the head as a stego multiple times thats your fault for not being aware of yourself

[golden coral]

No. Pesky has terrible ideas. And stego should certainly not be huntable by carno. Not at all.

[dusky surge]

dude, if you let yourself get hit once by a stego, that's on you for not noticing the walking billboard

[golden coral]

Doesn't matter. Carno is a small game hunter, it should not even go near a stego, simple as that.

That's like saying it should hunt anky, or trike, or shant, somehow. No, stego is way too large and powerful for a carno to go after.

[golden coral]

We should let dryo hunt stego like in the old days obviously ^^

[dusky surge]

of course, i remember when stego was a waste of 5 hours, can't wait for a return to form :)

[orchid prairie]

im not saying carnos should regularly hunt stego it should be possible but very risky

[dusky surge]

good news

you already can hunt stego at a very high risk

wish granted

[orchid prairie]

its too many headshots thats the problem

[bright oasis]

That's the high risk part

[dusky surge]

exactly lol

if you can't handle the risk, you shouldn't be trying to hunt stegos

carnos shouldn't be hunting stego regularly anyway, it's possible, but very risky

[golden coral]

Why? There's no good reason for that at all. And how many headshots would be reasonable then? How many headshots should it take to kill a trike, or anky, or maybe shant? And if carno shouldnt hunt them, why should it hunt stego, who's as large as a trike, more or less. (at least can be, depending on what happens to it).

[orchid prairie]

trikes head it literally shielded with huge horns and ankys head is also armoured stegos head is not armoured and a hell of alot smaller. it makes sense that alot of dmg should be dealt to stegos head from a carno bite

[somber sphinx]

Why should carno hunt stego? It kinda can but it’s highly risky

[golden coral]

And it does. Stego takes 2x damage. But it's not just that, it's the size of the animal, the investment, the balance, all of that as well.

[slim dragon]

eat grass and die

https://tenor.com/view/my-job-here-is-done-bye-done-gif-14879937

[golden coral]

Why does everyone just look at "tiny head" and entirely forget that this is a game with balance according to that. We always end up with this "well realistically" and then we get nowhere because realistically, things would just oneshot each other and so on.

[dusky surge]

you are a blessing

your services are a constant gift

keep the saying alive

[hollow canyon]

Might be a bit of a surprise for you but Stego irl had actually quite a bit of armour in its head and neck area.

It had subdermal plates of bone and osteoderms that protected its head and neck - kind of like Anky(not very surprising since the two are related) but much less pronounced.

Also Carno has obviously absolutely 0 business hunting Stego.

[humble heart]

But at the same time a single hit from the tail of a stego could realistically kill a carno immediately if it hit either its head or its body, meaning a carno would never attack a stego unless its smaller, or sick.

[keen plover]

I mean, unlike rex, Carno would have the speed to actively keep up with its head. Also, pretty sure stego needs an attack change or addition to even combat rex, since the current attack would leave it exposed

[obtuse ocean]

Stego will easy escape a rex with speed/stam, doubt you wanne go for a rex as stego

[keen plover]

Rex trot is insanely fast. While it will have very great tracking capabilities

You can't escape a rex as a stego

You need to defend

[ripe gulch]

Hello devs, I'm unhappy. Why? Tired of having lying devs, You said to release 2 dinosaurs before 2023 or even 3. But how many have been released 0!!!!!!
The worst for me is your latest dev blog. You release a shift 6 crap on balancing (I'm only talking about this content). Following this zero balance, you received an avalanche of criticism on the #general-feedback and #balance-feedback channels. But in your dev blog no word about it to explain or to apologize. NO ZERO WORDS BY!!!! To make the ostriches you are champions all my congratulations!!!! I see how you consider your community, simply as easily buyable people with nice words full of false hopes in the background, and no frank communication..... I am disgusted with your communication which is totally to be reviewed otherwise you will lose a lot of people taking us for fools.

[sick vine]

I think your recently balance-feedback post is excellent and i think you're correct about the state of utah

[small sphinx]

This, I haven't played since they borked the balance with the update. I was playing everday up to that point along with some of my friends. The game died for us that day and to see nothing has been done let alone alluded to is cringe of the highest order.

[hasty coyote]

Every update so far has had balance issues, and every time they try to rebalance it next patch. Thats just the nature of the topic, sometimes changes are too much, sometimes a change that is needed doesnt happen. But every update they try to fix the issues, and hopefully the expanded stress test team can help next patch, since this one was rushed.

Plus, I really don't understand most the major complains about this patch being especially awful. Sure, carno is in a bad spot, but omni was arguably the same last patch because at least this patch carno is hard countered by pachy, omni had literally 0 bad matchups except deino. Pachy has had barely any changes and the issues present last patch have been in there since pachy's creation.

[dusky surge]

You realise that pachy is in the same state omni was, right?

Because it hard counters both carno and omni, it has literally no bad matchups except deino

It's the same issue, different animal

U6 pachy is U5 omni

[hasty coyote]

I'm not saying pachy isnt a problem, just saying that those problems have existed for a while now

[humble heart]

It will be interesting to see how cera effects matchups with omni/carno/pachy. Sadly the venomous lizard and feathered penguin wont do anything to help.

[dusky surge]

cera is getting obliterated by pachy if it remains as is, same with carno

[humble heart]

Yeah, because pachy would prob be faster than cera id assume? Or am I wrong?

[dusky surge]

cera is smaller and slower than carno

[humble heart]

And cera wouldnt be able to get any bites in due to stun

[dusky surge]

yep

[humble heart]

Yeah

It would literally be too free for the pachy

[dusky surge]

carno would also destroy cera

if left the way it is

[humble heart]

Hmmm

It will need to apply to a lot of dinos too whatever they do. Since most dinos will be abt as fast as cera

[dusky surge]

the issue is the stuns on both carno and pachy

[humble heart]

100%

Carno could keep stunning and then biting and fleeing

While pachy could just keep getting headbutts

[dusky surge]

carno shouldn't knockdown tenos or ceras, pachy shouldn't stun ceras, tenos or carnos (unless it gets a fracture)

[humble heart]

Yeah 100%

Personally I loved legacy cera

Though I didnt use it a whole lot(Was a utah main)

[dusky surge]

legacy cera was also complete trash tho lol

unless we're speaking the cerarex era

[humble heart]

Only thing that saved it was its turn radius

Yeah lol

The dinos animations were cool, its calls were cool, its bite was cool....Its speed was too slow, its stats too weak for its speed

Hopefully cera will deal quite a hefty bit more than carno and have a bit more hp/weight

[dusky surge]

i want the opposite

i want cera to do less damage and weigh less than carno

[humble heart]

Wdym?

But it would also be slower

[dusky surge]

powerscaling cera is ridiculous imho

[dusky surge]

it would

cera doesn't need this ridiculous oversizing to be viable

[humble heart]

Basically slower and weaker, why would anyone play it?
It would get crapped on by tenos, carnos, and pachys, but be too slow to get omnis or any other small dino

[dusky surge]

it's not a hunter animal

[humble heart]

But corpses arent a promised thing

[dusky surge]

which is why cera has an insanely good scent radius for corpses

this is confirmed by devs

it can smell a body from AGES away, especially if it's rotten

[humble heart]

But if cera cant take corpses from other creatures and they are already dependent on other dinos killing things and leaving them thats a very iffy lifestyle

I understand your opinion, personally imo I feel it should be a wee bit stronger than carno or teno since it wont be as fast. It still wont be able to hunt carno/pachy/omni/etc but it would be able to take corpses, which I think is the small thing it needs to be a viable dino

[dusky surge]

cera has been described as a honey badger, it's small, but highly vicious and enduring for its size

cera being bigger would genuinely make me so frustrated

[slim dragon]

That's why it gets a sickening bite

[dusky surge]

they only did that in legacy because the balancing systems in place were trash

[humble heart]

I see

Oh bruh I just looked it up your right cera is way smaller than carno

[dusky surge]

it has a sickening bite, a great swimspeed, better turn radius, apparently it's quite hard to kill for its size, an excellent sense of smell, the ability to eat anything, regardless of quality, so on

that's by far a decent list of advantages

[humble heart]

True

[keen plover]

can alt bite while swimming as well

[dusky surge]

was that confirmed an alt-bite?

[humble heart]

I think your right, however if carno is stronger than it, and faster, and it isnt agile, how wont it get crapped on by carno? At least utahs can dodge and evade

[slim dragon]

Btw I finally understand
I thought cera bite making people puke because of infections was stupid because infections don't do that, I was merely thinking of cera as a discount komodo dragon
But then I thought of plague rats, and that is what cera is
It doesn't cause infections
It literally gives diseases with its bite
And now I can fully embrace pukemachine cera

[keen plover]

Ah, actually not certain, but it kind of attacks to the back

While swimming forward

[dusky surge]

if you don't make the charge utter garbage to play against for animals of cera and teno's size, then no

[dusky surge]

cera represents pestilence, fatigue, war and death

it is a walking apocalypse

[humble heart]

At first I was very embracive of thicc tanky cera, then(5 minutes ago) I was very unembracive of the weaker cera, but the perks it has is making me more embracive of this guy.
I always enjoyed bleeding and slowly killing dinos with utah in legacy and omni in evrima, having basically a tanker utah that also spreads diseases sounds even more enjoyable

[dusky surge]

it's not really an omni style animal tho tbh

its simply too slow

[humble heart]

I know I just meant weight/hp wise

It wont be able to dodge/evade like omni

[slim dragon]

Btw
Omni weight reduction when

[humble heart]

My only worry is if its slower and weaker it will be targetted very hard by pachys/carnos/tenos

Like the dieases are cool and all but whats the point if you cant even land a bite or die so quick its irrelevant

[dusky surge]

and if you design pachys and carnos to not be awful, then thats fine

teno can't really do much on the offense

[slim dragon]

I don't think cera will be weaker than a pachy tho

[dusky surge]

and cera will simply punish it for trying, as a defensive animal itself

[humble heart]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

carno is weaker than a pachy atm, so if we keep pachy as it is, it will be

[humble heart]

Pachy/omni/carno are more the worries I think.
And those gosh darn 50% deinos LOL

Imagine if growth was in stages? I would 100% main 50% deino lets be real

[slim dragon]

I wouldn't say it's functionally weaker
It's being screwed by one overtuned mechanic

[dusky surge]

i mean, it is still technically a weaker animal, and it's also insanely overtuned

so if that's not indicative of how bad pachy is idk what is

[humble heart]

Yeah like legacy pachy was crap, but the fracture mechanic is way too strong.
Legacy carno was crap, but the charge/knockdown/stun mechanic is way too strong(For other mid tiers/low tiers)

[dusky surge]

the fracture mechanic actually isnt the worst part about pachy

in fact, it's one of the more balanced elements

the issue with pachy is the staggers

[humble heart]

Is it the stun your thinking of?

Yeah

[dusky surge]

the staggers are ABSURD in tandem with the fractures

[humble heart]

Its basically free fractures

[dusky surge]

not just that

its the fact that it allows for you to kill things much larger

i dont care if pachy has an easy time getting fractures on carnos

[humble heart]

A dino 4x larger than you can be ramming you at 60 km and you do a body fracture and knock it backwards while only getting a bit dizzy

[dusky surge]

but i do care that pachy can kill carnos with ease, on its own

[humble heart]

Yeah

I love playing pachy and you quite literally can savage a single carno, or heck even hurt two fg ones enough to flee

[dusky surge]

and dont get me started on tenos

poor tenos

[humble heart]

They did teno dirty man

Poor guys get abused

Tenos get destroyed by pachys

And the broken hitboxes on charge are a pain against carnos

[dusky surge]

teno did not get done dirty

[slim dragon]

I remember playing pachy once in legacy
I got saw by an allo while I was a juvie, so I started to run away
But it was faster than me (obviously) so I turned around and started headbutting its legs hoping to get a legbreak and go away
After 5 headbutts the allo stopped, bit me once and killed me

[dusky surge]

teno is perfectly balanced

the issue is its two biggest counters are just horrid

[humble heart]

But pachy/carno are overpowered in comparison

[dusky surge]

yea, exactly

[humble heart]

Teno vs utah is balanced, and was ironically enough the two ogs

[dusky surge]

teno vs omni is literally the best matchup in all of U6

[humble heart]

100%

[dusky surge]

and proof that these animals do not need to be changed

[humble heart]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

they just need to bring the other two back to basics

[humble heart]

Only carno and pachy needs changes. Deino too but its not as important rn

[humble heart]

Exactly

[ripe gulch]

Yes so true I valided 🙏🏻😟

[thin mantle]

Personally I'd argue deino being changed has always been important but has gone unaddressed for such a long time that it's been overshadowed by recent discrepancies...despite being just as problematic if not moreso, ideally gateway's water clarity solves this tho

[dusky surge]

i honestly want deino to not be able to lunge outside of water

[thin mantle]

So it can't stunlock?

Cuz I'm all for that

Tho I think it's...a very minor aspect of deino's list of issues

[dusky surge]

i'd rather a charged bite while on land, heavily conveyed with animation and hissing, but with crazy damage and fractures, all while slowing a deino to a walkspeed while charging/active. Let this guy defend its waters, without being a frustrating mess

I always like the more territorial style of deino

Exposing itself to make a point

[thin mantle]

I've always wanted this and I'll continue to advocate for it...especially as a land locked ability that you quite literally can't get hit by unless you place yourself in it's mouth

It just makes sense

[dusky surge]

Deino being defensively oriented is perfect for its kit, like cera, it can eat anything and is heavily opportunistic, its environments are limited in shared space, it's naturally quite slow and poor in chases

This way, it can pose a threat to apexes without the ludicrous lunge

The apex has to basically accept the fight to get hit by it

[thin mantle]

Not even really posing a threat, just being relevant to them without having to actively hunt them

[dusky surge]

Like, if a stego walks into a charged bite, that's on them

[thin mantle]

Then maybe we won't have to deal with any more deino realism arguments....

I so desperately want that bizarre power fantasy to die like the abomination it is

[dusky surge]

Please

I am all for deino having dynamic matchups

[thin mantle]

ideally most animals have some elements of nuance in their gameplay...than just simply winning or losing by obligation

[dusky surge]

I think seeing a territorial deino defending a kill from a stego is far better than "I lunge you and then I pull you into the water but slowly because ur big"

[frail bobcat]

territorial deino would be nice

[dusky surge]

I will encourage any new ability that makes the game feel more like a nature documentary lol

[thin mantle]

I'll be honest, I've literally never understood how or why the idea of a "big boy lunge" is supported by anyone...it's literally just a normal lunge that either doesn't work...or it does...for reasons

[dusky surge]

Exactly, yea

[thin mantle]

Like...the modifier of "oh well you're just grabbing a limb"....like...what does this change?

[dusky surge]

I don't think deino needs to be good at hunting apexes at all, but defending its ground from them, I can agree with that at least

Because
A: It's cinematic as hell
B: It's far more interactive from the other player currently fighting the deino

[thin mantle]

Ideally it's also hit with modifiers, whether it just being the gameplay landscape or deino's growth balancing alone, that reduce how common they are so that this doesn't essentially make them immune to threats entirely

Because it very easily could render them uncontestable...by everything

[dusky surge]

Hence the "walk speed" because an animal can just bait it out, then attack. Also recharging the bite midfight is a lot of time you aren't spending attacking

[thin mantle]

I don't think that really addresses it at all tho, I'm concerned with the ability existing alongside the populations they have currently, which will naturally go down as more animals get added...but 3-4 adult deinos would be immortal on land if they were able to do this..which isn't a problem with the ability itself, just a problem the ability introduces by virtue of deino's pops being an issue in itself

[dusky surge]

Oh yea, current pops are... Stupid

[thin mantle]

And Ideally...3-4 deino's wouldn't even be able to exist near eachother without dying for various causes

[dusky surge]

I'll be honest, droughts seem really interesting, because it seems like an opportunity for deinos to get REALLY aggro over space

[thin mantle]

In the future, cuz rn 4-5 adults is...well..viable unfortunately

[thin mantle]

At the very least territorial, there will obviously still be places for deino to exist during droughts, but no deino within them wants other deinos to join in on that limited real estate

ideally

[alpine plover]

Are the devs in any way other than the blog posts, showing us that they agknowledge certain feedback?`atm it seems kinda pointless to give any.

[somber sphinx]

Punch has, same with Filipe

[alpine plover]

is there any way to see that?

[somber sphinx]

They have just replied to suggestions on #general-feedback-discussion about things they like and are interested about

[royal stratus]

I agree that teno is good as it is currently, except one thing, which I also agree, might not be a a balance problem but more of registration by servers. The hitbox of teno seems to be way more sensitive, you can basically be inside the ribcage of your opponent and still, kick doesn't register :/

[waxen trench]

nerf steg, they are literally god rn

[dusky surge]

no

[frail bobcat]

the sheer complexity of this argument makes me agree to it

[dusky surge]

@knotty stone omni doesnt need a buff, and it sure as hell is not a utahraptor

[knotty stone]

omni is so unplayable though

[dusky surge]

that's because pachy and carno are absolutely absurdly broken atm

it has a very fun and balanced matchup with animals like tenonto, which is a very well balanced animal

[knotty stone]

i thought it was named 'omni' because it got nerfed?

[dusky surge]

no?

why would that be related, it's named omni because it is absolutely nothing like a utahraptor

[knotty stone]

is utah gonna ever be added in the game?

[knotty stone]

ohh, well its what i heard when i always asked why its an omni

[dusky surge]

actual utah is being added

[knotty stone]

is there a model yet?

or concept

[dusky surge]

no, we just know it will be feathered and behave/look a lot more like an irl utahraptor

[knotty stone]

oh thank godd, okay thank you

[ashen frigate]

That would be epic

Omni vs Utah

[dusky surge]

omni probably wins tbh

i honestly think utah would get obliterated by a good deal of the roster unless given a lot of unrealistic powerups

[ashen frigate]

How large is omni compared to an accurate Utah?

[dusky surge]

smaller

an accurate utah would likely outsize one

[ashen frigate]

alr

[hollow canyon]

it would but that doesn't stop animals that'd be even more obliterated than it from being on the roster so it's w/e I guess

also - it would probably kill an omni tbh

[fresh laurel]

Spino:

[dusky surge]

no one even knows what a spino looks like in the palaeontology community, it changes every second week

[fresh laurel]

But i doubt spino does look like godzilla like we see in the teaser

[dusky surge]

sure, but at least with spino, you can't really make a realistic spino regardless, because a realistic spino will become unrealistic a few weeks later

[hollow canyon]

nah, that's not true, it's looked about the same ever since the tail was published like 2 or 3 years ago

there are other things about it that keep changing but it's not its looks

[fresh laurel]

Spino looks the same since the new tail thing a few years ago

So i mean...

[dusky surge]

well, on another note, realistic spino would get destroyed even harder than realistic utah

[fresh laurel]

It can be god fisher with the defense that gives it time to avoid stuff ig

Weaker but faster bite too

Like much faster

[somber sphinx]

@light steppe carno can try to kill a stego in a group but it’s risky, also carno shouldn’t go after stegos at all
And deino v stego matchup is “fine” as it is especially with the lunge doing more dmg now. Stego also takes more dmg to the head than other Dino’s

[hollow canyon]

Let's be clear about it - Carno isn't meant to be hunting Stegos, if it can do so right now then that means something is wrong with the game.

Stego is also meant to be at a disadvantage against Stego and apexes in a fight against them, so that's all intentional.

[vale harness]

does anyone know the specific multiplier you get when you hit multiple parts of a dinos body with an attack?

[hasty coyote]

I know headshots are 1.5x (except stego with 2x and pachy with 0.5x) and I believe tail tip hits are 0.1x

[vale harness]

yea i know those are the basic ones. but i thought if you hit like the head and the body in one shot you got another multiplier not sure

[hasty coyote]

No they don’t stack as far as I know, it generally prioritizes one section.

[vale harness]

i know in update 3.75 or 3.5 they made it stack but you might be right i think they reverted it

[hollow canyon]

if you hit headfirst - it counts as a headshot

if at any point you hit iirc legs/shoulders it counts as a legshot or bodyshot or something

there were two areas that had priority over everything else

[hollow canyon]

it didn't stack, it always prioritised headshots on 3.5

ever since the fix on 3.75 it's been the same

[dusky surge]

pachy is 0.75, not 0.5

[hasty coyote]

Is it .75? I have heard both and haven’t had time to test it myself lol

[dusky surge]

it's half of the normal headshot multiplier

[vale harness]

wait if its half the headshot multiplier aka 0.75 does that mean you do less damage to a pachy's head then to hits body?

[hasty coyote]

Yep, sometimes being hard headed is good lol

[vale harness]

hm. godamn. never knew that. good to know

[hollow canyon]

yes, you do less damage to its head body has always a x1.0 multiplier meaning that you deal your normal damage to it, Pachy's head takes less damage - only 75% of your normal damage if you hit a headshot

[dusky surge]

@topaz elm Rex being a cannibal like carno and deino? Sure. Rex being PUNISHED for not regularly finding and killing its own kind? Hell no.

[topaz elm]

I see what you mean but rex in the initial launch is going to have the least amount of counters

deino currently can barely kill stego, and trike is notorious for having a long growth time so before a trike even reaches 80% theres probably a full grown rex

I think before we get to know it and play with rex a but it should be hard to grow

like how deino was advertised as this "hard to grow but powerful creature"

[dusky surge]

i DESPISE the "animal-specific" diet options, so requiring me to eat a single specific animal on the roster or face debuffs/being weaker than my peers is the shining example of everything i hate about the diets

[topaz elm]

how do you suggest we limit apex populations?

[dusky surge]

make them hard to grow lol

[topaz elm]

I would like your thoughts

[dusky surge]

migrations, for example

[bright oasis]

Kill them when they're young, make them hard to grow or not be one yourself

[dusky surge]

the issue i have is the current diet system is far too lenient on growing apexes

bodies should not give nutrients, only organs should, imho

[topaz elm]

as soon as a rex reaches 100% growth its just going to be like gasoline in a match factory

1 rex leads to a horde of juvies following it around for protection and food

plus the only thing that can kill rex with ease is a group of stegos or a trike

[dusky surge]

and thats going to stop a carno bulldozer from picking off the back of the pack how?

[topaz elm]

eventually that carno is going to slip up and those juvies are gonna run right back

[dusky surge]

it doesnt need to slip up, all it needs is to kill one

there is no eventually, it's a very instantaneous motion between alive juvi rex and dead juvi rex

[topaz elm]

also sub adult rex, if they are anything like they were in legacy are going to be on steroids in evrima

[dusky surge]

probably

[topaz elm]

I'd bet on sub adult rex being able to kill carno fairly easily

especially packs of them harassing carnos

[dusky surge]

yea, but we werent talking about sub adult rex

we were talking about juvis

[topaz elm]

yes but juvi's become subadults

over time

[dusky surge]

not when they're run over by a carno

[topaz elm]

how many can a single carno find out and kill

before it gets jumped

[dusky surge]

if they're in a big group following behind a giant rex? quite a few

[topaz elm]

theres also a lot of things that adult rex can do to stop that

[dusky surge]

if the juvi is far enough from the parent, the parent wont be able to do basically anything

[topaz elm]

if deino can almost kill stego without 100% dead center focus and whoever gets more hits in

what is stopping rexes from standing in knee high water

and just negating all forms of incoming damage

[dusky surge]

trike

[topaz elm]

fair

[dusky surge]

trike likely has the advantage in the matchup, due to the nature of being trike

[topaz elm]

thats what im hoping for

[dusky surge]

trike/rex isn't a deino/stego style situation

[topaz elm]

its the isle so you kinda have to take everything with a shaker of salt

[dusky surge]

both trike and rex are designed to fight, and share an ecosystem, we don't have a water apex trying to take on a land apex and assuming it'll go well for it

[golden coral]

I don't think we should use legacy to try and figure out balance in Evrima, not for stats, not for growth times. Aside from that, I would imagine that as long as they are on unofficial, it might not be very balanced, but when they do come to officials, I'd hope stego would be powered up to deal with them as well, and maybe even deino. And the issue isn't so much time of growth, but difficulty, and more importantly, difficulty sustaining a grown apex or otherwise.

[topaz elm]

I dont think stego is going to be powerful enough to stop rex on its own

[dusky surge]

deino and stego are two very different animals that honestly should not be interacting as much as they do. Trike and rex are made to interact, they are natural rivals

[topaz elm]

no way in hell

[dusky surge]

if it isn't, it's a trash animal and will never be played again

so we best hope that it can

otherwise the ecosystem will seem even smaller

[topaz elm]

lets hope it can run

[golden coral]

As it stands right now, no. Hence my hope stego will be adjusted to handle them. Deino could also be adjusted, if needed. But deino still holds the biome advantage, and would still pose a threat to subs most likely, due to lunge up to 4T after all.

[topaz elm]

I mean stego does have a fair bit of stamina on it

[dusky surge]

a rex can outtrot a human. A stego can barely outRUN a human. Not happening

[dusky surge]

It's got one of the lowest stam pools in the game

Tied with carno

[topaz elm]

whomp whomp

[golden coral]

No idea where this "stego has fair stamina" comes from honestly :p

[dusky surge]

Deino is the only animal with worse stam than it

[golden coral]

But yeah, don't see stegos really outrunning rexes, probably not even trikes honestly.

[dusky surge]

Which means they must be allowed to fight

[golden coral]

Since I doubt trike will be slower than stego, it might be, but it seems like it'd be more mobile in general honestly.

But anyway, for main balance issues, I'd say we should wait until they are in on unofficials, expect all kinds of issues, and hope it gets worked on from there.

First they need to figure out how powerful exactly rex and trike are supposed to be, then how to adjust things to work with that.

And I'd argue that we should consider not turning rex into a cannibal, since the last thing we need is one of them sustaining itself on the horde of juvies it will attract, and all that :p

[bright oasis]

Putting animals of specific growths on its diet list may help. Like rex can be a cannibal, but not gain nutrients from anything smaller than sub or even just straight up only get nutrients from other adults.

Rex Juvis could not be cannibals so their growth would be more social (theyd be in easier to spot in groups) and not sustain themselves on infinite juvis. They could get the cannibal debuff too at such young ages to further discourage cannibalism to survive

[dusky surge]

i honestly would REALLY dislike that

like i already have my hatred for species diets

species-specific + growth-specific diets are just absurd

also, subs and juvis would be easily capable of avoiding an adult variant, so punishing a rex for catching one seems silly to me

sub is much faster and more endurance-focused, juvis are the same, but also with the ability to go in smaller places

[bright oasis]

Do you have any input? Ik you're all for removing nutrients from meat and only having them comes from organs.

[tall bronze]

I actually kinda like the idea of bodies giving no nutrients.

Preferred species right now feels more like an okay bonus but it doesn't really feel all that great since most of the time, you've already eaten organs for nutrients.

I'd prefer (huehue get it) for carnivores to not directly prefer specific species as a diet option, but rather just through design.

[thin mantle]

Meat = Food, organs = nutrients

Species specific diets are lame, prey pools should be dictated by capability

[tall bronze]

Like a Carno would prefer something like Dryo simply because it's small game that roams the plains now and then. But it wouldn't be the game itself telling you "you want Dryo".

[thin mantle]

If you can you should, that's how predation works

[tall bronze]

Also uh, speaking of Carno. Outside of overtunedness, Carno can actually hunt small game reliably now, right? 😮

[thin mantle]

Yes

[dawn falcon]

It can

[tall bronze]

Instead of being a walking contradiction-oh neat!

[thin mantle]

Yeah it's finally not the highly visible very loud stealthy low profile totally an ambush predator...

[dawn falcon]

Compared to ambusher Carno which is just a faster Allo, it can compete with smalls using the charge.

Since the charge makes you significantly more agile at the cost of rapid stamina drain

at least for full adult

[thin mantle]

Charge bugs aside, I do find it funny that smaller players are finding it a borderline unviable idea to be in very open spaces...

[dusky surge]

except it can also body tenontos better than ever so uh

[thin mantle]

That's...the point

[tall bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/damn-it-gif-24870550

[dawn falcon]

Hitbox

[dusky surge]

oh no

[thin mantle]

It's not even just that

[dusky surge]

its more than just the hitbox, its a myriad of stuff

[thin mantle]

CC, spam, damage creep...etc

[dawn falcon]

Damage creep?

[thin mantle]

Like if a teno and a carno slam/charge eachother at the very best they'll trade

[dusky surge]

(if kept as-is, the "carno killer" cerato will be nothing but carno fodder)

i cannot see a world where a cerato wins against the current carno without gross powerscaling or oversizing

[thin mantle]

If a teno lands a stun and a carno lands a stun, odds are each party is only landing 1 hit, and charge deals more damage than slam per attack, on top of carno's higher HP, the teno can get spammed with "unsuccessful" charges and still kill it

[tall bronze]

I hate current CC. It just screams black-and-white. If you get a stun, woopdie doo the prey literally cannot react.

How skillful.

[thin mantle]

I don't mind that existing but it's applied to too many things

[dawn falcon]

Oh yeah. That is a problem

[dusky surge]

i just hate the fact that carno gets knockdown on every goddamn animal thats a gram smaller than it

[thin mantle]

Like omni pin, carno charge, pachy ram...that's just bad CC...

Teno slam/kick...that's fine...for a number of reasons

[tall bronze]

Save hard stuns for really hard/risky to pull off moves and obvious exceptions (like something VERY big stunning something MUCH smaller, ya know)

[dusky surge]

oh, 451kg carno? Yep, have fun obliterating omnis haha, you earned it :)

[dawn falcon]

I wouldn’t mind a activation cost for charge tbh

[thin mantle]

Have fun also being 20 kmh faster with double their stam

[tall bronze]

THAT

[dusky surge]

900kg should be the minimum requirement to knock down an omni

[thin mantle]

That should just be a general standard for combat abilities....with exceptions but most abilities with sustained uptime should have initial costs

[tall bronze]

THE STOOPID STAM THING FOR YOUNG CRITTERS

S W A P IT......for average-low stam but high regeneration instead c:

[dusky surge]

a 451kg carno should STUN an omni, obviously, but knockdown

[dawn falcon]

yes

[tall bronze]

Would that really change much since a stagger is just a knockdown without the down

[dusky surge]

i used to support this idea till i realised what this can do

this is arguably worse

[tall bronze]

Oh no....what can it do ;-;

[dusky surge]

now you know how juvi omnis like to pounce things repeatedly

[thin mantle]

Infinite ability spam

[tall bronze]

Oh

[dusky surge]

imagine if they can regen stam in a second

[tall bronze]

MaaaaAAAAN

It feels like when you're excited to see a movie and then see it got awful reviews.

[thin mantle]

Docks brain just detonated xD

[tall bronze]

I really liked that idea ;O;

[thin mantle]

I know and for a lot of creatures it could work...and probably should be applied...like for ptera

Ptera could have that no prob

[dusky surge]

or how about pachy, being able to punch up as much as it does, being able to regenerate that ram over and over again

[dawn falcon]

I also wouldn’t mind experimenting with charge but with less damage. Sounds like it could make it only powerful if you can combo it with a bite/alt-bite

And less oppressive damage wise

[thin mantle]

I've always preferred charge as a utility ability rather than a 50bmg on legs

[tall bronze]

What if the charge did okay damage, but had good fracture severities applied so that it's not so much a weapon, but like Fluff said; a utility ability

[dusky surge]

i would keep the damage exactly as-is if it meant we instead got a reduction on the knockdown range. A HEAVY reduction, to 50% of the carno's weight

[tall bronze]

They get up and can try to limp away while you Tokyo drift your way back

[thin mantle]

That would be down to balancing...even with severities that could decimate some matchups worse than current charge does

[dawn falcon]

I could see that yeah

[tall bronze]

I'd be down for charge being more costly as well if that'd help

[dusky surge]

The fact that a 451kg carno
A: Can't be pinned by omnis
B: Can easily knockdown omnis
C: Is faster than omnis
D: Has more stam than omnis

Kinda stupid

[dawn falcon]

Update 4 MT when charge inflicted fractures

[dawn falcon]

Hilariously overtuned honestly

[dusky surge]

If we changed it to

A: Can't be pinned by omnis
B: Is faster than omnis
C: Has more stam than omnis

That's still better because at least then it can't bully the animal that's meant to hunt it

And while I am of the sentiment that an adult carno being hunted by omnis on the regular is ridiculous, juvis SHOULD be within an omni's range of food

[thin mantle]

Mhm

Like they should be facilitated in escape over confrontation

Like the current sub/juvi situation is probably the primary contributor to people thinking omni is too weak rn

[dusky surge]

Now ideally, I'd also want the juvi stam change to be lost quickly, completely lost by sub-adult. Or better yet, give each creature a unique "juvi-buff" to permit for better survivability and allow people to actually exist at different stages of growth

[thin mantle]

Yeah like super stam regen for ptera juvis is fine...for omnis...carnos...not...just depends

Also I don't think carno should ever exceed it's maximum adult speed personally

64 for subs is...hilarious

[dawn falcon]

I’ve always preferred that subadults should be slightly faster than adults so you have a better chance at escaping, but my god
65kmh is insane

[thin mantle]

Yeah but like...57 is a number...even 56

but 64?!

Like as a standard I find that understandable...depends on the animal most of the time but I think carno is one of those animals that should have the tightest speed ratio through growth

[dusky surge]

For instance:
Carno: Can jump as a juvi, slowly loses jump height until nada as a sub and adult
Ptera: Lots of stam regen
Deino: Lots more oxygen retention than an adult, allowing for hiding for longer from bigger, scarier animals
Pachy: Lots of stam like currently
Dryo: Leaves behind basically no footprints until bigger
Teno: Really good swimmer, like, really good.
Stego: Blunt thagomizers don't do bleed, but do fracture instead.

Stuff like that to make juvis unique

[thin mantle]

Mhm

I still think teno should just be a semi but as an example yeah

[tall bronze]

Stego fractures 🤗

Also I really like those ideas

[thin mantle]

Haven't heard that take tbh

Not immediately opposed

[tall bronze]

I saw it once. Came from a really cool dude.

It was me

Was not met with as much praise

[dusky surge]

it'd wear off once the nubs start sharpening

[thin mantle]

Woah...no way ;O;

[tall bronze]

Okay but like

What if

[thin dragon]

I also enjoy those ideas personally

[tall bronze]

IN THE FUTURE of course

[thin mantle]

Yeah like currently it has no reason to have that...buuuuut

[thin dragon]

The one for juv deino doesn't make too much sense but I can understand it, all the others are

[golden coral]

Baby stegos bipedal run + fracture :p

Break the predator, then run away in a fancy manner xD

[thin mantle]

Give them sauropod niches :D

[thin mantle]

Give it a nice flamboyant prance xD

[golden coral]

@dusky surgeI would trade juvie carnos jump for good turn radius on normal run, since no charge for small ones, but instead they can roam further into jungle/forest and still be capable hunters, maybe?

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/parslow-prance-celebration-dance-goal-celebration-touch-down-celebration-prancing-gif-23491168

[tall bronze]

It must have that amount of air time

[thin mantle]

Doesn’t it already

[tall bronze]

[thin mantle]

Man stego could have such a neat run anim and it just doesn’t

Stego’s locomotion looks really cool :(

[tall bronze]

Stego is like opening a box of Oreos but they're all crushed

But hopefully it gets some love eventually

I imagine reworking runs has both balance reevaluation necessities as well as being low priority

[thin mantle]

And maybe a few could just be given an aesthetic facelift

Like I really like hypsi's run, I adore teno's run....carnos run?.....ehhhhh....omnis run? ehhhhhhhhh

[tall bronze]

Mmmmmhmmmm

Carno walk

Carno walk

[thin mantle]

Oh god carno's walk gives me hives

Like I think it actually causes a biological response in me

[tall bronze]

It physically makes me want to stretch my legs because it's just like "MOVE THEM MORE"

You have the stride length of Texas, use it!

[thin mantle]

Your legs are massive......USE THEM

[dusky surge]

i love carno walk

goofy as hell

[dawn falcon]

Every walk in the game being so useless that it’s overshadowed by trotting and running

[dusky surge]

walking is bizarre, yea

it has better stam regen and slower bleedrate

but thats it

[dawn falcon]

Really wish Trot speeds would be bumped up while regeneration is nerfed, then buff the walk speed as well and the regeneration

So now you can vary your movement without it cucking you :)))

[bright oasis]

You have converted me to the same thought. It would make infighting among species more common, who eats first, last, who doesnt get to survive period. Organs would have so much more value to them then than they have now.

(Solo play would be so good then, as you have no one to compete with for food. Sure, the downside is you have no one to play lookout for you, but that's survival.

I'm officially on the "meat doesn't give diet" train now.

[tall bronze]

[hollow canyon]

every walk in the game is absolutely goofy
trots in this game are actually walks, walks meanwhile try to portray the animal having a stroke or something

[prisma magnet]

"Omni" and ptera walk are okay-ish, imo. I wish Omni walk was slower animation (not slower walk speed) and more cautious

[hollow canyon]

not really

they aren't okayish because Utah's trot is also a walk

like idk how to put it

the trot animations in the game are not "trots"

legacy Allosaurus is trotting

most other trots are not trots

[frail bobcat]

The sprint of omni should be swapped with the meat carrying sprint as the default animation

[hollow canyon]

for the record:

trot
/trɒt/
verb
1.
(with reference to a horse or other four-legged animal) proceed or cause to proceed at a pace faster than a walk, lifting each diagonal pair of legs alternately.
"the horses trotted slowly through the night"
2.
(of a person) run at a moderate pace with short steps.
"the child trotted across to her obediently"

neither Tenonto/Stego(four legged) nor any other animals(2 legged) trot in this game

I mean I guess it's sort of understandable with the likes of Stego because... big

but other than that the trots are pathetically slow in this game

as per the streams Galli is trotting at a pace of 15km/h or so

that's pathetic

trots were meant to be the main mode of transport in Evrima that's why the stamina pools of everything were decimated as badly as they did

but you can't trot around in Evrima due to its much higher pace than in legacy

the game just doesn't work quite simply

atm the solution is to extend the runtimes

in the future all the new playables should have faster trots

[spark terrace]

How much faster are you thinking like a 50% increase? Because I agree the lack of trot speed makes traveling quite the investment at times

Like as a carno moving from center to eastern swamp in search of teno can spell doom if the area is empty (ignoring the abundant AI)

[spark terrace]

To me the lack of adequate trot speed incentivizes camping hotspots but now that I think of it migration will stop hotspot camping

But migrating is going to be a giant pain with how slow things are

[hollow canyon]

I think at least 30% faster for Carno specifically

and all the other animals not much slower than Carno after the buff

(Carno's the second fastest after Tenonto rn)

[keen plover]

Pachy with its legacy trot lmao

Thing is painfully slow to move around with

[hollow canyon]

yea

[keen plover]

So you always run around

[hollow canyon]

exactly

[keen plover]

It's equivalent to stegos trot

A bit better, but damn

I wish we had a lot more stamina. I like animals running slower but for longer like legacy personally. Everything having high speeds, high stam regen and low stamina is eh

[hollow canyon]

Yes low stamina doesn't work in this game with how it's designed right now

[frosty echo]

Yeah how do I learn how to speedhack so me and my mix packing group of friends can go around and ruin everyone's day. :/ Seriously. Where's the fix.

[keen plover]

Gateway's size LOL

[azure crescent]

yeah

sometimes you see antelopes trotting fast enough to the point they're getting away from wild dogs

trots in this game are hurried walks

[fair pebble]

is gateway bigger or smaller than spiro or V3 or thenyaw?

[somber sphinx]

smaller than the whole map of spiro but bigger than the playable area

[fair pebble]

what's the unplayable area in spiro? The ocean?

the mountains?

[stark knoll]

Everything beyond the blue borders

Which is 3/4ths of the map

[somber sphinx]

We can play 1/4 of the map so spiro is really big

[tall bronze]

Dryo actually was faster than Omni before, and people (especially Dryo players) hated it. Made it too boring since instead of getting the thrill of dodging and outmaneuvering a hungry raptor, it was just

W+Shift

[topaz elm]

I just kind of think the ever so small dryo player base would like to be faster than something that can both hold you down, is faster than you and that you can't fight back against

at least until the burrow is added

or maybe they should just add the burrow

[tall bronze]

Main problem with Dryo (aside from missing features like burrowing) is that the dodge is actually decent, it's just too costly. However, there's the proposed idea from Dondi (not necessarily confirmed) of having the dodge be based on 2 charges that can be increased with perks instead of using stamina. So hopefully they go with that 😛

[keen plover]

Wait... Only 2?

Seems kind of backwards

If so, they need to increase dryos total stamina pool

[tall bronze]

I agree it seems a bit small. But it could easily change as it was just briefly mentioned as an idea.

If they wanna go with 2 charges by default though, I'd say compensate by making the distance jumped much farther.

[golden coral]

Dryo could use a small speed buff, but it should still remain noticably slower than omni, so it does need to use the dodge. The biggest issue is that the dodge has a very high cost which makes it not at all worth using. Dryo could also possibly do with a bit longer run time as well.

[sick vine]

that'll be cool having dodge on a hard cd instead of it using stam

[full ocean]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[fresh laurel]

just watches nappn pachy gameplay and all I can say is, solo pachy dominates

[dusky surge]

pachy is HORRID

[fresh laurel]

the gameplay was just

like gross

Like holy poop, pachy needs fixing

they could maybe like decrease stun times as its victims get larger

idk, just goofy ah pach

[slim dragon]

All I can say is tiered stuns ftw

[wet sleet]

@alpine cape Tell me you never started to grow a new character during nighttime without telling me you never started to grow a new character during nighttime...

[alpine cape]

I didn't start to grow a new character during nighttime

[wet sleet]

Yeah the nightvision is that bad. You can't see where you are going, you can't see danger coming and you can't hunt if you are a carnivore. It's literally the best move to log out and wait until it is daytime again.

[hollow canyon]

Naaaah, if you're a fresh spawn then who cares really? Dying right after spawning in is the least frustrating death in the game since you don't lose anything.

And if you are a juvie you just grab the nutrients and then you don't really have to move around much anyways so you can stay somewhere safe e.g. in the woods where you're safe from the bigger things.

It could be a good idea to potentially give them a larger night vision but it's not a very pressing thing imo.

[ashen frigate]

unless a boar one shots ya :p

[hollow canyon]

I never got oneshot by a boar, honestly if someone gets oneshot by a boar that's kind of a skill issue

[hasty coyote]

@summer sequoia
The current charge/ram interaction is bugged, right now neither gets fractured, pachy takes 0 damage and carno takes the ram damage, and both get stunned, which heavily favors pachy.

The intended interaction does give pachy a major drawback to parrying a ram. Its supposed to give carno a head fracture and give pachy a body fracture. This basically means pachy is forced to escape in the next like 30 seconds or less, or it just dies. The body fracture 3x the stam drain, so it only has about30 seconds max of run time minus the previous stam they used. Rams decreases their stam heavily so they can't fight back either. The head fracture on carno can make it difficult to find the pachy (or notice its body fractured), but you can easily just run it down from there if you can keep track of it. Plus, even if there are multiple pachies, unless they fracture you again while you're stunned, you can easily just run off because your mobility isn't decreased. So the intended mechanic definitely favors carno imo

[summer sequoia]

Oh so it's just bugged rn? If that's how the intended fight is supposed to work then I'm happy with that. Although maybe another bug but currently when I counter the charge as a pachy, it will fracture the carnos body instead and rarely sometimes I've managed to break it's leg. I know maybe thats more bug stuff but something to keep an eye out if you're a pachy and wanna cause chaos lmao

[hasty coyote]

yeah the interaction has been finicky since release lol, havent been able to fracture the carno with the interaction myself, but I don't doubt it. I assume the way they coded it also relates to the pachy/pachy mechanic where they clash and take 0 damage. When one interaction works, the other breaks lmao.

Hopefully they can fix it next patch, because pachy just outright negating charge is very bad.

[summer sequoia]

I've had instances where neither the carno and I took damage (it was a baby carno so i found it very amusing)

[hasty coyote]

I have even managed to parry an ambushing carno, then break its legs while it was still stunned, and not get hit. Its honestly just dumb

[summer sequoia]

Honestly stun locks are just bad for a pvp sense, especially when quite a few dinosaurs have some stun abilities as is and pachys bone break on top of said stun

[hasty coyote]

yeah pachy needs a bit of an adjustment with stuns. It definitely needs them at the start of the fight, so that it doesnt just bleed and get run down anyway. However, it def doesnt need them when its bullying a carno with a broken leg.

[summer sequoia]

Thats a really good point. Perhaps having a broken leg will then make you immune to stuns?

[dusky surge]

both carno and pachy have the MASSIVE issue of being too good at stunlocks

[summer sequoia]

Or just achieving all fractures should make you stun immune

[dusky surge]

that's a weird and inconsistent system that will have really poor interactions

imagine if a fully fractured carno just is now randomly immune to a teno tailslam

[hasty coyote]

eh... i feel like that can have unforeseen consequences with future dinos.

[summer sequoia]

Fair

[dusky surge]

what SHOULD be done, imho, is having the fractures themselves deal staggers, and pachy cannot actually stagger carno at all, but it CAN fracture one, meaning it can stagger through the use of fractures

[summer sequoia]

In that situation, if a carno is fully fractured and goes straight for the tail, he'd prolly already be on low ass health and just get one shot

I guess it would be more concerning for a bigger animal

[dusky surge]

even so, it's a bizarre situation that makes other interactions confusing

[summer sequoia]

like theoretically a fully fractured rex or something

Or maybe depending on size and weight, the stagger can just greatly slow you and preventing you from attacking instead of locking you in place

[dusky surge]

would still cause the exact same issue we have now

[hasty coyote]

yeah like imagine if anky is fighting a rex or something, breaks it legs on the first hit, and now just loses the fight because it can't stun the rex.

The issue is with pachy specifically, and likely needs to be dealt with pachy specifically

[dusky surge]

exactly

[summer sequoia]

Yeah it is weird to have a fast moving creature stun and bone break

[hasty coyote]

lets hope the next patch can find a good solution

[dusky surge]

its fine as long as it's done well

i still think pachy shouldn't be allowed to stun anything above twice its weight consistently with ram. It should be tied to fractures

It's also just... weird that falling off a cliff doesn't cause a stagger

Like, that makes sense

[summer sequoia]

Maybe over time, each consistent headbutt lowkey blinds you just slightly

[dusky surge]

Punishing pachy for defending itself is not exactly the best solution

[summer sequoia]

like 10% of a head fracture

[dusky surge]

Also pachy is immune to head fractures, fun fact

[hasty coyote]

that just punishes pachy for using its main ability, and doesnt stop the fact it can stun lock a carno

[dusky surge]

Literally can't get one

[summer sequoia]

are you sure? I swear I accidentally gave a friend one

[dusky surge]

Head too strong

It doesn't even have an animation for it I think

[summer sequoia]

Thats true

Honestly its why I'm not a fan of stuns in games. too hard to balance

[dusky surge]

i really dont think pachy has that hard a solution lol

literally just don't let it stun above 2x its weight, make fractures cause a stagger. Pachy can stagger an animal 3 times, one for each fracture, and retreat safely

[summer sequoia]

Seems like a decent balance

But I could imagine that if your headbutt for some reason doesn't get that first fracture in, that could mess you up greatly

But i do like the idea of not letting it stun something above 2x its weight

Stops cocky pachys like me bullying 80% of the server lmao

I love playing an evil pachy but it is insane with how much I get away with

[dusky surge]

I honestly don't play pachy because it is becoming perpetually more and more unfun because it's entirely unstoppable

[summer sequoia]

100%

[dusky surge]

I hate playing ridiculously overpowered animals, which kinda sucks because EVRIMA atm is either playing carno, stego, ptera, pachy or deino or simply not playing because you'll get bodied

[summer sequoia]

sometimes I get into fights I realistically shouldnt win just so I can die swinging but my opponents either die or flee

I'm more likely to die from starvation as a pachy than from a player

if they do buff raptors pounce so they don't lose all their stam in under a second, that would probably drop pachy numbers significantly

cause pachys bleed like crazy

[dusky surge]

they buffed pachy's bleed res last patch

(also i really don't want a raptor buff)

(nor do i want raptor to be particularly favoured against pachy)

[summer sequoia]

Bleed is still a pretty serious thing for pachys tho

a small carno can get your bleed pretty low

[dusky surge]

pachy should be a menace in terms of obliterating things around its size tier, the issue is it's also good at punching up one or two tiers above that

[summer sequoia]

I dont think raptor should be favoured in a raptor v pachy fight

but I don't think a single pachy should decimate a whole pack either

and for a separate note, personally not a fan of raptors losing all of their stam in 1 or 2 seconds,

[dusky surge]

but to be real, raptor is finally in a balanced spot. No joke, this is the most balanced raptor has ever been, and I know this because its fight with teno, the most balanced animal in the game, is really skill-based, fun and well-balanced.

Issue is that carno and pachy have ascended to god levels and thus completely invalidate the now balanced raptor

[summer sequoia]

I think old raptor prolly could still fold current pachy and carno. With the new update theres definitely a power vaccum since the raptor got nerfed/balanced out

[dusky surge]

Yea old raptor was kind of godlike

[summer sequoia]

I miss taking down stegos

[dusky surge]

New raptor is arguably better at that tbh, because of the way the pounce works now

As long as you have a pack

New raptor is terrifying because of the single buff no one read, but is the best buff it ever got

Animals can't buck without stam

[summer sequoia]

That's true

[dusky surge]

Every single missed tail swing, misused moment sprinting and tick of bleed makes you almost incapable of fighting back against a raptor pack

And stego's godawful stam regen, combined with the bleed reducing stam regen, makes it basically incapable of stopping the raptors

[summer sequoia]

I think people still need to realise that the first couple pounces need to be 1 second latches

and favour bites in the beginning of the fight

[dusky surge]

Hell, even bucking ticks at your stam, making the raptor slowly become more favoured

[summer sequoia]

true

but bucking will take way more stam off the raptor than you

[dusky surge]

And the raptor will get it back 3x faster

Especially with other packmates baiting you to use even more

[summer sequoia]

True

From personal experiences tho I have lost packmates just from lag and how it affects your perspective on how much stam you actually have

theres entire chunks on the map I avoid to hunt now due to consistent lag

I just wish that maybe there was more visual warning to how much time you have left

[dusky surge]

Oh yea, we need gateway lol

[summer sequoia]

Cause I've pounced deer as a baby raptor and I've fallen off while it said I still had stam

and of course they don't even buck they just let you get that full pounce value lmao

[dusky surge]

@analog mirage im pretty on board with most of your takes, the only thing i'd change is make it not possible for it to knock down animals over 50% its size, simply because its likely still going to be WAY too good at felling tenos and probably cera when they drop

Also I don't quite see the need to reduce the DPS on bite tbh

I'd honestly rather the bite damage increased back to 200

Its bite should feel productive to use, not nerfed alongside the charge

[analog mirage]

I say lower dps on bite because if we give it a stamina buff with a weaker charge it’ll can’t dish out as much damage anymore to things like Teno but can afford to run for awhile. So it makes it more on par with Teno instead of shoving crippling damage every two seconds.

Though I wouldn’t mind keeping the current bite dps if it’s charge only staggered Teno

[dusky surge]

I honestly think it shouldn't be on-par with teno, it should be unfavoured in that matchup

[dusky surge]

Same, I MUCH prefer the idea of it staggering teno

Because it means carno duos/trios actually have to be a little smarter about their teno hunts

[analog mirage]

When I say on par I mean more of it’s not always overpowering it with charge all the time, it can still hunt it as a solo it just needs to take time to wear it down while a duo of Carnos is still manageable to a Teno but still causes a threat

[dusky surge]

Ehhh, I honestly don't like carno hunting teno solo that much tbh

[analog mirage]

I’m fine with it, just shouldn’t be as easy as it is rn

[keen plover]

a lower dps + lower charge damage means things like pachy will get away after a knockdown

Carno should also not be hard locked out of the teno matchup. This is a creature that can swim faster, has stuns, has higher damage and can jump

It already has advantages

Yes, current Carno is beating teno unfairly in the matchup, but it shouldn't be impossible for a solo carno in the future

Carno will be unable to hunt things like diablo & kentro. Why does it need more things slightly smaller than it that it can't hunt?

Update 4.5 teno v carno matchup for example was fine. Teno had the advantage, yet Carno could kill one

Should be something similar to that with current Carno and teno

[slim dragon]

Lower dps on bite but with increased bite damage but slower bite speed
So it can still punish smalls just as well, but it's less efficient against large animals
Also the speed at which carno can bite just looks stupid

[analog mirage]

Yeah that’s the idea I wanted

Can still deal with Teno but is less effective

[fresh laurel]

Always has been

Utah and Teno are just fated to be equals kinda gg

[alpine plover]

Carno is op right now only because of its charge. Its turn rate is so too slow if its charge was removed rn it'd be weaker than U5 carno at full grown

[unkempt sierra]

I’m not sure how to balance the match ups for all Dino’s

I think there should be some sort of min max requirement when it comes to the amount of hits one Dino can take

[thin mantle]

Well…there is

Weight = HP, so if you do the math per the attack value of each dino you get how many hits it takes to kill X creature

Why we don’t have attack values visible for none bite related attacks? No clue

Kinda lame

[unkempt sierra]

ok steggos need to be nerfed they do way toooooo much damage,

to much health pool

it should be one or the other not both

[dusky surge]

they really dont

[unkempt sierra]

idk man the only thing that seems to be a threat to them is deinos, and even then a steggo can kill one fairly easily

unelss its crossing water

unless

[dusky surge]

deino really doesn't need an easier time killing them that it already has, otherwise deino will just fully control the land and be an even more annoying pest

[unkempt sierra]

i guess, but you could just butcher their thirst on land

for the fully grown ones

i just saw 3 seggos kill like 6 crocs next to the water as a pteradon

full grown and everything

[dusky surge]

their thirst on land is already exceptionally fast, 2x faster than teno and 4x faster than carno

[dusky surge]

that's quite literally a gang of really really bad players if they die in such an engagement

[unkempt sierra]

still the fact that they were able to tank so many bites

and live is insane

one looked like he got bit 12 times

and still didnt die

[hollow topaz]

Locational damage definitely matters for stegs

[unkempt sierra]

idk any other animal in the game that could 3v6 like that

[hollow topaz]

Carno vs Utah? Or Good players Vs Bad players

[unkempt sierra]

lets say 3 good utahs vs 6 good carnos

[hollow topaz]

Oops I see, I had it backwards

[unkempt sierra]

i dont even think that would happen, the carnos could make alot of mistakes

[bright oasis]

3 good omnis would be good enough to know not to fight 6 carnos

[unkempt sierra]

and still win the fight

[hollow topaz]

But 3 good carnos vs 6 good raptors could still win

[unkempt sierra]

thats the problem, not being able to

[hollow topaz]

People should know what fights to pick, if you’re a Dryo you aren’t seriously going to fight most things. If you’re a pachy, you know better than to fight stegs or deinos. If you CHOOSE to fight a Stego, that’s on you really

Besides, I’ve seen plenty of GOOD deinos solo or duo stegs.

[unkempt sierra]

ya, and i get that, but why is a herbivore the most powerful dino, and why is it the real apex predator?

[hollow topaz]

Because the roster needs flushed out more

[unkempt sierra]

are they gonna add a dino that can counter steggo

[hollow topaz]

Rex I think will be coming to unofficial servers “soon”.

[unkempt sierra]

pog

[hollow topaz]

And debatably, depending on how troodon goes, maybe they’ll be able to do it with their venom. It really depends.

[dusky surge]

(except it's likely stego will be buffed in order to fight against rex for obvious reasons)

[hollow topaz]

I doubt that

[dusky surge]

i very much don't

[hollow topaz]

They made it clear that Stego was never intended to be an apex

[dusky surge]

they also made it clear they want EVERY animal to be viable

[unkempt sierra]

it just sucks cuz, its seems like you have to have an overwhelming amount of people to overwhelm the steggos or you just run away because they are just too strong

[dusky surge]

making stego rex fodder isn't exactly a good idea

[hasty coyote]

heres the thing, unless rex is slower than stego, stego has to be able to fight rex

[hollow topaz]

Very fair

[dusky surge]

and from what we've seen, rex is faster

so stego MUST fight it

[hollow topaz]

I suspected they’d play with the speeds in terms of buffs and nerfs as opposed to actually fighting force but I guess it makes sense

[dusky surge]

I don't really see why they'd go ahead and make stego stupidly fast

That doesn't really mesh well at all with the animal

[hollow topaz]

Doesn’t have to be stupidly fast

I don’t know how fast Rex is so I can’t really say but I was going to say other than that, maybe out Stam?

But stegs already have garbage Stam so I’m unsure lol

[hasty coyote]

sub stegos are already terrifyingly fast at 34kph, any faster and they'll be 3 tons but as fast as a teno

[hollow topaz]

I wasn’t implying buff steg speed (or not that much), I was implying slow Rex down. Aren’t they supposed to be slow anyway? I’m genuinely not sure about this, I’m asking

[hasty coyote]

rex being slower than stego seems a bit too slow, unless the apexes are basically going to be crawling.

From the very WIP footage we have seen of rex, it walks about as fast as stego runs. But then again, troodon was also like 70kph for testing purposes so it may not stay that way

[hollow topaz]

I suppose I just don’t see stegos beating rexes in most cases unless they’re coordinated but I also haven’t been paying much attention to rex admittedly. Like.. If there was a pair or more of stegs maybe, their group limit is pretty large which I guess would imply they’re suppose to be in larger herds anyway.

Thinking along the same lines of how MOST deinos can’t solo a steg, but a good group can. That kind of thing.

I don’t think a steg would solo a rex in my opinion, but a good group of stegs perhaps..

But of course, I could always be 100% wrong, just food for thought

[dusky surge]

considering rex can basically outtrot a running stego based on previews, im pretty sure the speed buff would have to be stupid fast

[hollow topaz]

Fair enough lmao, I haven’t looked at it so I wouldn’t know, I was just guessing

[hasty coyote]

you can't force an animal to be in herds to survive another playable, that just makes them unviable. It would be like if pachy was faster than omni and could still bully it like it does now

[dusky surge]

also slowing rex doesn't really do much except punish rex for existing in the same ecosystem as stego, which doesn't really seem fair

[unkempt sierra]

thats literally utah raptor tho @hasty coyote

[hollow topaz]

Omni kinda needs to be in a group to survive right now..

[dusky surge]

that's because it's REALLY good in groups, and currently the balance is favoured towards carnos and pachies

by a WIDE margin

[hollow topaz]

But when apexes come, could the same thing not be said of stegs?

[hasty coyote]

you mean the future utah? we have no idea about its balance, stats, or even its ability. I doubt they would just make a playable just to be unviable

[unkempt sierra]

ya feature

[dusky surge]

yea except unlike omni, stego takes 5 hours to grow and has to take large journeys to do so

[hasty coyote]

omnis can still hunt small game and escape from predators solo.

[unkempt sierra]

ya but if you want to hunt any larger animals or even have a chance at taking down larger pray you have to be in a group

[dusky surge]

the implication being given here is that stego CANNOT survive a rex outside of a group. Omnis can, being able to use superior agility, speed and stealth to evade predators, something stegos lack. Omnis can also scavenge and choose to strike smaller animals for continued survival

[unkempt sierra]

thats the other thing, i would not mind growth rates reduced by a few hours for some animals

[dusky surge]

i dont see what this has to do with stego, thats a completely intentional feature

[dusky surge]

i would rather not