balance-feedback-discussion

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, i remember legacy when playing sucho. If i saw a giga, i had to run until all my stam was gone and hope for the best. It was not fun lol

[thin mantle]

It always gets downvoted whenever it’s suggested despite it being a less problematic mechanic than literally sitting down

[hollow canyon]

Wait, really?

I barely ever pay attention to feedback

[thin mantle]

I only check it every once and awhile…it’s been ages since anyone actually put it in there

[hollow canyon]

yea well, I don't really care whether people like it or not it's about the devs realising that it's not bad for their game

[thin mantle]

Actually I’m gonna do that rq just to test

[hollow canyon]

Go for it

I will see how that goes

[thin mantle]

True the ratings are essentially useless…if they were listened to as per consensus we’d have Omni and Carno being rivals in a 1v1….oh wait…

(Flashbacks to U5)

[hollow canyon]

Yea nah, I'm not even talking about the balance-feedback, that's just "misinformation central"

[thin mantle]

Oh…nothing in that channel makes sense to me 80% if the time…there’s a couple gems but they’re gems on account of simply being relevant to the game instead of actually being good ideas…those are even harder to find

[muted saddle]

Alright, all good. No hard feelings

[golden coral]

What? Both deino and stego are apexes from what I know , what info are you going by?

[obtuse ocean]

What the devs said, its not an apex. Nothing more

[hasty coyote]

I have heard the contrary for both

[obtuse ocean]

Well ive just seen they say its not an apex, ofcourse that can change or have

I mean if people mean they are apexes in the game right now, i understand. But not in the future

[thin mantle]

I’ve literally never heard this…

Aside from the dictionary def of apex but we don’t use that here

[obtuse ocean]

I mean ive seen alot of things beeing said here thats debunked by the devs mulitple times lol

[golden coral]

I meant more so if you had some reference, because with acro being an apex, I see no reason stego and deino wouldnt be as well, especially since stego needs to survive rex and so on, and deino is already up there in power more or less.

[obtuse ocean]

people here most say how they want the balance to be, and dont pay attention to whats beeing said by devs

[obtuse ocean]

I do disagree with alot of this , stego can barely one shot a carno unless its head i belive. But if the devs have said acro is an apex as you say,that can be.

But for me i can definetly see a rex killing larger thing then carnos if it gets an ambush on it.

[golden coral]

Well, its also been noted that stego most likely will need a power up and new attacks later on so that might help out.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, i just checked. I did not mean stego. So you might correct,sry. He said deino is not an apex,it was philipe who said it.

[golden coral]

Oh alright, hmm, thats interesting. When did he say this?

[obtuse ocean]

That i dont know, im on phone atm. But i do have the reference,i can send it later tho

[golden coral]

Fine by me, its hardly important, just good to know, so just tag me and send it whenever you got time.

[thin mantle]

The capacity to oneshot animals Carno tier or larger doesn’t constitute an apex, it’s practically a size category it doesn’t mean what the actual word is defined as…
I’ve never heard deino and stego being described as not apexes before by the devs, if you’ve got messages to reference I’d love to see them, but even as recently as spinos concept art it’s shown fighting a deino…spino is definitively an apex and if they have even a somewhat pitched match that absolutely makes deino an apex as well…especially given that deino and rex have comparable weights…

Regardless the definition is irrelevant anyway…the title has nothing to do with how they need to be balanced, all animals need to be viable, so if stego can’t straight up run from a rex it’ll either need to be capable of a defensively oriented retreat or just straight up fighting the big guy…it’s entirely dependent on what’s needed

[obtuse ocean]

They also said that even a deino getting a ambush on s spino the spino will still have the advantage. And in the concept art the spino slits the deino in two more or less. You have any reference of that they are saying deino is an apex?

[thin mantle]

Sure and that makes sense because spino is enormous and defensively built while deino only has one of those advantages…doesn’t make deino any less of an apex…wait what do you mean it’s getting split in two they haven’t even made contact yet in the panel?
And no I have no Dev statement references…deino is just WELL within the size range to be classed as one, so it is

[obtuse ocean]

Also that was in the water that reference was made,not land

[thin mantle]

What does that change?

[obtuse ocean]

I dont know what happends if deino walks on land, if spino will follow or be superior there aswell

[thin mantle]

It would probably be superior on land…but the panel is open ended…the deino could’ve won that fight

Usually when a panel like that is open ended it’s indicative of a rivalry

Same with cheirus and spino, tho cheirus will without question be better at it

Unless we genuinely believe that in every context spino curbstomps deino with basically no challenge…which I find hard to believe

Plus ALL of this is irrelevant….deino is just big enough

It’s stupid but that’s just community slang…Apex is a size category

[hollow canyon]

Just going to point out that if you think most apexes will be oneshotting a Carno you're probably in for a disappointment.

[hollow canyon]

Filipe went back and forth on Deino being an apex or not so many times I've lost the count honestly.

[obtuse ocean]

Depends, if an apex get an ambush on a mid tier . It will have seconds to live. If you think otherwise i think your in for a disappointment.

[hollow canyon]

no, it's got nothing to do with it surviving or not

I did not mention that even in passing

[obtuse ocean]

Not saying it gonna be bite and boom dead, but you will be running and your lucky if you get away

[hollow canyon]

I said that if you think an apex will be ONESHOTTING a Carno you're probably in for a disappointment

actually just nvm to all of that, I re-read what you said there:

" stego can barely one shot a carno unless its head i belive"

No, it can't oneshot a Carno UNLESS it's a headshot

only headshots kill a Carno

and that's from Stego

[obtuse ocean]

Yes, thats ok for stego

[hollow canyon]

It will be very surprising if any apex dishes out more burst damage with a single attack with the attack rate comparable to Stego's

I entirely expect Stego to be punching harder than every other apex with their "normal" attacks

[obtuse ocean]

Ita not pure damage,if lets say rex can pin mid tier. Your prob dead if he gets an ambush on you as a carno

[hollow canyon]

Again - I'm not talking about that, I'm saying that a T.rex will not be oneshotting a Carno with its normal bite

There's no way they will give it 1800+ dmg on its bite

weight system come back!

[obtuse ocean]

True, but im sure with ability your prob screwed if a rex ambush you

[hollow canyon]

I think a Carno should be dead or almost dead and incapable of running if a T.rex bites it

but it's just impossible with how Evrima works

[obtuse ocean]

So no food for rex? Cus if i get ambushed by a rex im not gonna turn and say,oww yea lets fight

Im gonna be running lol

[hollow canyon]

I can't answer that question

I actually believe that from what I've seen the current roster would be very much on the menu for a T.rex from what I've seen of it on streams

[alpine plover]

Tbh, if a rex got a headshot, with just a normal bite, that head should be GONE. A rex bite can break through bone.

[obtuse ocean]

Well then you need to justifie how rex gonna hunt lol

[hollow canyon]

not happening with how the game works

it would need 1200dmg on its bite to oneshot a Carno with a headshot

which is similar to Stego's attack atm

[obtuse ocean]

Not if it can pin

You dont nerd to kill it,cripple it just like BB did

[hollow canyon]

Pin is irrelevant, that would just allow you to dish out more attacks or deal damage over time, idk maybe it will just headbutt things to stun them/knock them down and then bite them to death

I keep telling you that I'm saying that a T.rex CANNOT oneshot a Carno with how Evrima is set up

it would need to have an absurd biteforce that they won't give it

which is why legacy with its weigh system just worked better

you didn't need to put attack forces at bazillion+ to have the larger animals eviscerate the smaller ones with attacks

[alpine plover]

I mean if the stego's attack does that much damage, a rex bite should be as much, or more. Because the rex is one of the dinosaurs with the highest bite force of most dinosaurs.

[hollow canyon]

they did it because of how the weight factored in the calculation

[hollow canyon]

Rex isn't getting as much damage on its bite as Stego has on its tail attack, it won't happen

bring back the goddamn weight system

[obtuse ocean]

That will happend , if not i wonder how rex gonna hunt

[alpine plover]

the ONLY way the stego should do that much damage imo, is from a headshot.

[hollow canyon]

A few options - they will either make any of its attacks apply fractures against smaller things or it will have some very potent CC or it will just do the thing I think it is meant to do and just trot things down until they die of exhaustion

T.rex's trot on stream is 28km/h

that's faster than Stego's run

you literally just hold w and it moves faster than Stego is running

in a game where the longest runtime is 120 seconds

do the math on what would happen if it was released now

[hollow canyon]

Stego obviously does even more damage than that with a headshot

[alpine plover]

well yeah

[hollow canyon]

but I also feel that you severely underestimate just how much force its tail being swung around produced

I vaguely remember it being around 105kN or 120kNbut I don't remember the source for this

[alpine plover]

Geez

[hollow canyon]

that's for the big guy

and the one in the game is not actually the biggest Stegosaurus btw

we have an 8t specimen somewhere

there was also a 10t one but idk what the hell happened to it or what its name was

it may have been downsized

Don't get me wrong irl either of them would be a walking happy meal to a Tyrannosaurus(if we're talking about the biggest T.rexes) imo but that's not an animal to scoff at

[alpine plover]

yea

the rex would have had to be careful when attacking it because that is gonna HURT

[hollow canyon]

There's very few animals on the roster that would be surviving an encounter with a Sue or Scotty-sized T.rex

it would hurt and the T.rex could maybe die after the fight but the Stego would go down there if the T.rex was hungry enough

again - there's very few animals in this game that wouldn't go down to T.rexes irl

[alpine plover]

I hope they add a mechanic to the rex that you can grab on to other dinosaurs and throw them to the side, because realistically that's probably one thing a rex would do.

especially something that was large and heavy. throw it off balance to give itself a better chance

[hollow canyon]

I think something like Ceratosaurus would be the biggest thing a T.rex could do that to - T.rex was incapable of lifting things heavier than 1t

its neck wouldn't be able to withstand such a weight

[alpine plover]

true

[hollow canyon]

I hope they just make a global mechanic that makes it so that sufficiently large animals knock smaller things down with their attacks

we could then avoid a situation where the damage values for the apexes get completely overtuned

[alpine plover]

yea

[hollow canyon]

a T.rex wouldn't have to oneshot a Carno because the bloody thing would just fall down on the ground and have to get back on its feet to start running

which it wouldn't be doing unless something distracts that T.rex

in other words - you aren't 1v1ing an apex with a midget and you need a pack

[golden coral]

Theres no way anything gets that level of damage on their basic attack, just think about it. A stam free basic bite doing more than 1k damage?

[obtuse ocean]

Damage might be lower, but if a rex ambush you as a mid tier. You better be dead for the sake of balace.

[alpine plover]

eventually, I want to recreate the final t-rex scene in the first JP xD the raptors pouncing on it, and it grabbing them and throwing them xD

[obtuse ocean]

Not damage, but ability. As you see in the concept of spino who flips an anky

[hollow canyon]

Definitely, it would make 0 sense for a mid tier to survive if an apex lands hits on it

[golden coral]

Yeah, ability might be fine, if it has costs and all. Also Im not sure if we'll get that anky flip ingame or not.

[frail bobcat]

I would like it as a finisher

[golden coral]

Yeah, that could be pretty cool.

[frail bobcat]

Would also make sense because the spino could get to the nutrients easier when the anky is turned around

[nimble valley]

Everyone who disagreed with my Utah idea I meant it was mostly fine in U5 not U6

[frail bobcat]

I know

[hasty coyote]

they could also give either the basic attack or special attacks anti-small abilities. Like a rex may have the ability to do some fracture damage with bite, fracturing small things instantly and requiring many, many bites for other apexes. Or something like spino where its bite doesn't do anything special, but being slapped could send something small flying.

[thin mantle]

Yeah spinos bite should be for eating….

And nothing else

Also take a shot every time a feedback message starts with “I’m a Utah main and U5 balance was basically fine”

[golden coral]

Well, I disagree because neither carno nor omni was "mostly fine" in U5. Carno was rather useless for what it should be, and omni was more or less op, far better than it should be. What omni needs is A, a proper need for aim and no magnetic pounce. B, bucking being a proper counter, as it is right now, which is good since it means omnis now need to wear their target out before just pouncing, or using tap pounces to "bait" bucks and similar, and C, preferably a proper interaction between buck and pounce, with something like a brace mechanic, so both sides actually have to work for their success.

[thin mantle]

Pounce is not a mechanic that should or does reward instant gratification…that’s something this update introduced and I’m really enjoying Omni’s actually having to use….strategy

It’s quite the beautiful thing to see…not that it happens much at all still unfortunately

[golden coral]

Carno needed a better charge, which it does have now, so that's also good (yes, the hitbox is off, it needs fixing, but that's bug more than balance), and now it mostly needs fine tuning in what the charge should do when it comes to CC and so on, just like pachy needs a good look at it's CC because that's also quite a problem at times.

[golden coral]

I'm not sure I'd survive that :p

[dusky surge]

hard disagree. legacy's weight system worked fine with legacy's primitive and poorly made combat system, but with EVRIMA, there's way too many variables

[dusky surge]

Omni mains on their way to explain why skilled players should be allowed to easily punch up over 4x their size solo, and to not enable that is dampening skill expression

[thin mantle]

What makes it even better is that they wish to punch up to 4 times their weight against two of their best counters…like actually screw the rest of the roster

[dusky surge]

Still love the fact that omni mains are literally allergic to pack play

[thin mantle]

Not even just pack play…any form of strategy

[dusky surge]

Apparently coordination, teamwork, leadership and timing aren't half as skillful as being allowed to hold RMB on a carno till it dies

[thin mantle]

I never get engaged by more than 1 Omni at a time…well in awhile at least

[dusky surge]

I GUARANTEE you, the people calling omni useless never play in groups

I bet you omni, even now, is an efficient killer in teams

[thin mantle]

It’s probably my why that feedback feels so incredibly derivative…they’re just recanting the same hive mind driven message that Omni is too weak

[thin mantle]

Oh I know for a fact it is through testing…and some practice in game

Forest line Omni and the tap pounce meta are VERY strong

If you draw a Carno into the trees and you have 3 or more omnis it dies

[dusky surge]

Also, people are sleeping on Omni's SCARIEST buff to date, courtesy of U6

"Made bucking ability end when out of stamina"

Every wasted piece of stamina, combined with the stamina regen debuffs from bleed, means that once you're out, you're more than likely dead. Stamina is now your LIFELINE, and if a pack of omnis manages to wear you down and tire you out, good luck

[thin mantle]

Yeah nobody really cares about how Omni is by design an attrition hunter…it’s supposed to wear a target down…make them waste their resources

[dusky surge]

The fact that you can't buck on no stam anymore means that omnis can literally just whittle you down, bait out attacks, force sprinting and more to kill you

Which requires a great deal of skill and coordination

But hey, omni can't do it solo, so trash animal

[keen plover]

A special attack, sure. Rex will have a hold and a headswing, so if it doesn't land those, it shouldn't be 'knocking' anything down.

If a carno gets hit by a basic bite, then you as a rex messed up and should have used your special. It now gets to run away, with half its health or whatever

[obtuse ocean]

Sounds like awfull balance, the rex didnt mess up the carno did if he gets bitten by the rex. And now he can just run away.

[keen plover]

Then... pin them

Or headswing to knock them down

[dusky surge]

^

Not that hard

Rex basically has a plethora of "instant kills" that aren't its bite

Headswing on any sub-2000 health target more than likely = death, due to headswing doing damage and knockdown, making an easy finish
A pin also = death, since the animal would be far too small to struggle free, and would simply be crushed by the jaws

[obtuse ocean]

Yea,no way rex gonna oneshot stuff in pure dmg. But it for sure gonna have something that can screw you over after getting hit

[dusky surge]

Depends if they decide to give it a fracturing bite

Honestly, the abilities it does have will likely mean that any small animal that doesn't see it coming is more than likely dead the moment it reaches them

[keen plover]

Does rex need an 'alt bite' if it has a headswing

[dusky surge]

I just think the headswing IS the alt-bite

[keen plover]

So 3 attacks

[dusky surge]

Like how pachy has it

[keen plover]

Seems fine

[dusky surge]

I think it's going to be
LMB = basic bite (obviously)
Alt+LMB = headswing for defensive stuns/knockdowns. Makes it more of a brawler
RMB = grab/pin, used to grab and apply damage to the opponent slowly until dead

[keen plover]

and the pin is the main fracture dealer. Maybe with severity, basic bite could deal light fractures

[obtuse ocean]

Yea something like that, but not sure why pin should deal fracture tho. You are dead if your mid tier newsays if u get pinned. And i doubt it gonna pin a spino .

[dusky surge]

likely grabs a spino, rather than pinning it

[keen plover]

Well you'll still need the ability to be useful against things around your size

[obtuse ocean]

You sure ? I dont think grab is usefull against grown spinos etc ?

Or stegos for that matter

[hollow canyon]

Yes, that's precisely what everyone disagrees with. Utah was about as fine in U5 as Carno is right now.

[hollow canyon]

I know what variables you have in mind and I disagree - I think they'd make it better. Having said that - it would require the QA and Hypno to rescale the HP pools because they shouldn't be = to weight with this change. Evrima would work vastly better with a weight system.

[hollow canyon]

No, I obviously meant that Carno should be getting knocked down by a T.rex's normal bite. If Carno gets hit by a basic attack it shouldn't be running off into the sunset. Also - no way that would take half the health of a Carno.

[dusky surge]

its a system that almost entirely discourages punching up, and muddies the waters of balance even further than they already are

balancing an equation is harder than balancing solid numbers

[hollow canyon]

You say that but solid numbers lead to a situation where mirror match ups either end up lasting forever or to someone dying in a blink of an eye.

[dusky surge]

i dont see how the weight thing makes any difference, if both animals always have the same weight lol

mirror matches are the last thing I would've brought into this discussion

[hollow canyon]

you can decrease their damage since they don't need to have it that high to handle the smalls

old Stego - 4k hp + 1200/1300 dmg, that was probably the best one

meanwhile current Deino - 16 bodybites to kill another Deino

[dusky surge]

again, that just feels like a balance issue, not something that can be resolved with the weight formula

[hollow canyon]

Mirror matches are exactly what should be brought into this discussion considering what a joke they are in Evrima

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont see how you think the weight formula will cause more good than harm to EVRIMA

[hollow canyon]

ez - it allows to decrease the damage of the apexes because the weight does the work for them

[dusky surge]

55 playable animals, each with a variety of attacks, some designed to punch up, some designed to hunt small game, some designed to brawl within their own size, each independently also accounting for stun interactions caused by weight and other such factors

[dusky surge]

so we sacrifice any chance of a balanced game so rex can one-tap a few more things

doesn't sound worth it to me

[hollow canyon]

no, we actually balance the game so that the balance stops being as big of a joke as it is

You need to have gabajillion damage slapped on Stego

so that it isn't a walking burger

admittedly with Stego you could argue that it's also because this animal is like half-finished

[dusky surge]

and with a weight/damage system, stego becomes even more artificially inflated in damage so it can punch up enough to not be said burger

[hollow canyon]

so idk maybe they will just lower that later but I want to see how that will work when apexes are around

[hollow canyon]

no? Why? Stego handles large tiers just fine, it struggles against smalls because of its attack being so limited

[dusky surge]

a stego, as it stands, will probably get tenderised by the first rex or giga that sees it

[hollow canyon]

That's really dependent on how they're balanced out

if we get a 10.6t T.rex with 1200 biteforce - I don't see how anything in this game survives that but I somehow doubt we're getting that

I was about to throw other numbers for T.rex here but it'd be just me guessing what they're going to be which I don't see how it has any use

I don't think Stego is going to remain like this when apexes start coming out

if it does then well... it being a half-AI animal when they come out is not even a balance but more so a design problem

[golden coral]

@hallow quiverTeno does not weigh more than carno. Also there were no nerfs to teno from what I know.

[hallow quiver]

Doesnt?

Heres an other problem

how?

[stark knoll]

Because teno is smaller than carno

[somber sphinx]

Teno weights 1600kg and carno weights 1800kg

[hollow canyon]

Because it's smaller than Carnotaurus

it's really that simple, Tenonto is already waaay oversized in the game while Carno is undersized

admittedly the Teno in the game is just a completely different animal than irl Teno

[frail bobcat]

How big was carno irl?

[hollow canyon]

but that's probably for the better

[hollow canyon]

it's not a big difference, it was around 2t

the highest estimate that I've seen for it recently was 2.4t

[frail bobcat]

Oh ok

[hollow canyon]

but I'm skeptical there

it's probably closer to just 2t maybe 2.1t

[frail bobcat]

Thats a big boi

[hollow canyon]

I think the GDI put it at 2.1t?

I might be remembering incorrectly though

1.8t is an old estimate, admittedly our Carno is perhaps slightly slimmer than irl animal

but I'm not sure it might be just my impression

Carno is I think the most or one of the most accurate dinosaurs in the game

but irl Teno is much smaller than what we have in the game it's like 900kg or so for the irl animal

and I think that's for one of the bigger specimens the average is more like 600kg I think

so yea irl Tenonto would be Utah food(not to mention Carno)

hell dromaeosaurs 1/10th of its size preyed on it

[obtuse ocean]

Last i heard they wherent getting remade, just with better fancy feutures

[eager ledge]

If they were to take charge away then it would be accurate because scientists believe that the horns were only for display and possibly for similar fights like monitor lizard shove fights if it were to do what it does in game it would kill its self its not built like a pachy

[hollow canyon]

this isn't at all about what animals do, it's about the model

carno's gameplay isn't all that accurate to irl

Carno had a high biteforce

for an animal of that size it packed a really big punch

in the game it tickles with bites

[eager ledge]

Do you alt bite because alt is extremely powerful it 3- 4 hits pachys and omnis with only alt and no use charge I’d say take away charge up non alt bite by 10-15 dmg increase size to 2000kg then its fine you dont need charge to kill prey it small game hunter the only reason you ever need such a op ability as charge is if carno was a big game hunter you really dont need it its meant to be a small game hunter

[eager ledge]

Sometimes if you lucky you 2 shot heads a Omni

[hollow canyon]

Carno 3 shots Pachy with its normal bite. Charge is trash vs big animals, it gets you stunned on them.

Also - 2 normal bites also kill Omni with headshots.

Alt bites are stronger on everything but Deino, that's not the point. Carno has a relatively weak bite in the game and that's always been a thing. It's not realistic but it has to be this way for the sake of balance.

[eager ledge]

Either way charge and stun on a carno is unnecessary when it already has decent stats without it the only reason pachy has stun on its attacks is it is to tiny and helpless without it it would be cannon fauter carno on the other hand is decent sized and really doesn’t need a stun to live

[thin mantle]

That matchup generally needs less stuns...none on the part of the carno charge should be a pursuit tool

Which....it is rn...but it's also a brawlers dream ability

[lethal shore]

please please please fix the hitbox on the carno charge, despite being a baby omni, hiding behind a tree the carno was still able to charge and hit me instantly killing me instantly. also why does the carno one shot a full grown omni with a charge? how is that even remotely fair. not only can they two shot bite you, but they can just charge you and hit you basically not matter what as long as your on their screen. the most broken mechanic ive ever seen

[frail bobcat]

this is not #balance-feedback

[hollow canyon]

that whole part about adult Omni happens only if you're talking about headshots - two bites or one charge kill an Omni if they hit it on the head

which is rather... unlikely?

Having said that I agree that charge shouldn't be oneshotting Omni at all

I think it should deal less damage than a bite

[keen plover]

I get that and I'm disagreeing with it. No basic attack should do knockdowns. If you messed up by not attempting to knock the carno down with a head swing or by pinning it with your hold ability, then GG. The carno should be able to escape. I don't want to set the precedent of basic attacks doing knockdowns. By the logic, if allo bites a pachy or something like that (without grappling it) should it be knocked down? Or is it because of the speed difference between rex and carno?

[hollow canyon]

No lol, if a Carno gets hit by the Rex's special ability it shouldn't be getting knocked down, it should be dead.

As for Allo-Pachy

the way I believe thought of it was

[keen plover]

Yeah... Which means land the hit. Although the alt swing doing 1800n?

[hollow canyon]

the requirement is both being iirc 3x heavier and having the weight advantage of at least a few tonnes

I don't remember what exact value I had in mind

but no - Allo shouldn't be knocking down Pachy

It's more so - think of it this way - if you have e.g Deino travelling on land it in a way effectively becomes free food for a pair of Allos/Carnos/Albertos just because it can't dish out the damage it needs to kill them

the CC effect is there to have them be punished for getting bitten by something many times their size that still needs multiple hits to take them down

Deino will need some 7 bodybites on an Allo/Alberto to take it down

You'd need to pump up the damage to ridiculous values to have those larger animals be able to defend themselves from some of the smaller animals

that's why I think the knockdown should be there

[keen plover]

I feel like if you get caught out, you deserve to die personally

[hollow canyon]

I absolutely don't think that a Deino that is approached by 2 Allos should at all be in a losing position lol

their weights combined aren't even coming close to Deino's

And I want deino to be getting caught out

I think that's absolutely vital that it gets caught out at times

it shouldn't be all about sitting in the water safely

that's just trash design, it should be encouraged or even forced to travel on land

but it shouldn't be sentenced to die if it ends up encountering a couple of mid tiers a fraction of its size

[keen plover]

I'm a bit lost though, a deino can knockdown or even stun an allo, but the same allo can't do it to a pachy?

Even though their size difference is greater?

[hollow canyon]

it's not

[keen plover]

And imo, I think deino should be boned if it does get spotted on land

[hollow canyon]

Allo 3.2tvsPachy0.5t= 2.7t difference

Deino8tvsAllo3.2t=4.8t difference

[hollow canyon]

I absolutely disagree, I think its current state is an absolute joke

the game is being way too lenient with it

[keen plover]

If it has the ability to nuke a creature like allo with one grab, then it's fine if the same can do it (in a group) on land

[hollow canyon]

by letting it sit in the water 24/7

it's also just utter garbage on land

[keen plover]

But hell in the waters

[hollow canyon]

yes if they CAN do it, not they get to do it everytime they see a Deino

I want Deinos to be vulnerable to things by traveling on land but not THAT vulnerable that 2 animals fraction of its size get to kill it if they see it because Deino just can't punish them enough

[keen plover]

Ah, I meant it more like allo being 5.6 times larger than pachy, while deino is 2.8 times larger than allo.

[hollow canyon]

yea I know what you mean that's why I'm saying it's not just about how many times larger something is but also how big the actual weight difference is

I think that needs to be a requirement or at least that's what I thought about it

because otherwise we get absurd situations like Galli/Utah knocking Dryos down

or even Carno knocking a Pachy/Utah down which I'm definitely not in favour of

[keen plover]

Hmmm. As long as it's a stun for the deino in that situation (against allo), since a knockdown is too favourable imo.

[hollow canyon]

hmmm I will admit I never tested how long either one lasts

but tbh it could be a stagger for all I care

it's just that they should be CCed somehow to get them to be punished without overtuning the damage of the big animals

[keen plover]

I feel like staggers should be a bit reworked anyways. We can have headshots be the current times, while if a pachy hits a carno on the body, or teno, it has no CC

Similar with teno on carno and anything within that range

[hollow canyon]

they do need to be reworked, I agree but I have no opinion on what should be done about them tbh

[keen plover]

I still think headshots should deal some stuns

While body hits deal none (depending on the matchup, but since it's a universal feature...)

[keen plover]

In that case, that's fair. I personally was against knockdowns, since they suck. Especially for basic attacks

But staggers could work

[hollow canyon]

I mean they I think that it shouldn't be in every scenario e.g. I think a T.rex should apply one to e.g. Carno maybe Allo

but Sucho shouldn't be affected

because it's big and slow enough

[keen plover]

I feel like carno can be a bit more boned than allo. I do like the idea of rex being challenged by a group of allos or albertos

[hollow canyon]

yea and that's fine

I honestly don't think that a T.rex would be killing an Allo with its bites even if it got a knockdown on it

it's just that Allo has a pretty big HP pool and I don't expect Rex's biteforce to be that high

but overall those are things to be worried about in the future when apexes actually start coming out

atm it's a bit of a non-issue

[keen plover]

If it does have stuns, than rex could probs have a 700n bite on its basic attack

Enough to scare them off if they get stunned

[hollow canyon]

yea that's how I see it more or less tbh

there's no way it's getting 1k or more damage on its bite

but we will see I guess

[keen plover]

In that case, should special attacks be cancelled?

Cause it might follow up with a hold, which means its a bit too easy for rex in that scenario

[hollow canyon]

hmmm fair point

Yea although I'm not sure tbh how its special is going to work

I think that if its special lets it nuke an Allo from 100 to 0 then there's no way it should be able to fire that off after knocking one down with a basic bite

but tbh I will worry about that when T.rex actually comes out, I only have a vague idea of what it's meant to work like and we will likely get a lot of mechanics by the time it comes out

e.g. trample could be quite a game changer for match ups with a large size discrepancy

[keen plover]

Yeah

We'll see it when we get there

[obtuse ocean]

Well you dont need to be killing it, it didnt do that in legacy either. It was the BB who killed you, if rex didnt have BB i would have escaped prob 95% of all rexes who caught me off guard.

[wispy kite]

@tired urchin
Concerning: #balance-feedback message

Growing a stego is harder than growing a croc. Stegos earned their indestructibility
And the herbivore population is again on an all time low. If you want to hunt stego, then hope that they reverse the Utah nerfs.

[thin mantle]

Omni wasn't even nerfed in any way by comparison to stego....it has the worst buck against omni and omni can stull duo it effortlessly with fatial pounces and dismounts....there isn't much the stego can do

[dusky surge]

i also like how omni got an insane buff that everyone is just sleeping on lol

the inability to buck on very low/no stam

[thin mantle]

Nobody even thinks about it xD

Not like draining stam wasn't already Omnis strongest tactic for hunting before

Now it's just better...significantly

[dusky surge]

nah, keep that but revert everything else about omni :)

this animal must solo apexes

otherwise how will skilled players be skilled

[thin mantle]

The fact that people think it makes perfect sense for even a good omni to regularly solo a decent carno or teno is bizarre to me

Omni is SMALL and hunts in PACKS

[dusky surge]

the fact that people want omni reverted and legit think that it was perfect before is astounding

[thin mantle]

And is geared towards large game to cover the fact that it's not too great against animals nearing it's size...or rather that it shouldn't but it's still fantastic against those

[thin mantle]

I'm convinced those players never played any other animal to understand how utterly miserable the game was

Like....fighting omnis wasn't and still isn't fun...

It's just more bearable because it's not a delayed inevitability or "cliff simulator"

[dusky surge]

fix the hitbox on carno charge
adjust the weight threshold it can knockdown to not be able to knock down stuff like adult tenos
there's your carno fixed

adjust omni stamdrain from buck (make it something like a multiplier, rather than MASSIVE chunks of stam in a single second), so it's more reactable
there's your omni fix

i love how people hate the new carno, aka the one that actually can hunt small game

[thin mantle]

yeah I just want it's knockdown gone...that's it...new carno is fantastic...and yes even on small animals...I want it as a pursuit specialized ability

[calm ibex]

cuz its oppressive as hell and easy to grow, it is designed to invalidate other playables and surprisingly that is exactly what it does

[dusky surge]

the hitbox is really stupid on charge, this i can agree on

i do think the charge shouldn't be knocking over tenos

i'm fine with it knocking over omnis, pachies and the like

make it like, >75% to knockdown (1350kg and below in the case of an adult carno). Tenos should be approached a bit more carefully than just charging it over and over again

[thin mantle]

I'm fine with it but I think it'd still be better without them so the followup wasn't so predictable...but that's the only reason

[dusky surge]

OH, and charge should have a startup cost, like pounce, ram, dodge, lunge and basically every other special ability

not a large one

[thin mantle]

Also solid objects being collided with during a charge should mildly stun and damage you

[dusky surge]

but one to prevent spamming it

like, even a 5% initial stamcost for charge would be decent

[thin mantle]

mhm nothing major..

[dusky surge]

10% would be overkill imho

[thin mantle]

Yeaaaah nah...5 is fine

[dusky surge]

but yea, all carno really needs is a stam startup, fixed hitbox and reduced knockdown threshhold so that teno doesn't get swarmed by the little buggers

[thin mantle]

I still really want my treebonk recoil tho...so forests are more of a disadvantage than you just being too tall to see the smaller animals running

[dusky surge]

yea

i mean, with gateway, its actually kinda interesting

[thin mantle]

The forests are less dense as far as I've seen...or at least there's a progression of density...so it seems like the perfect addition for adding a tactic that makes trees more useful

[dusky surge]

gateway is what i'd call a soft carno nerf lol

take this from someone who's playing on it atm. The forests are much more accessible, and the waterways are far wider and difficult to traverse

[thin mantle]

Like I'm not thinking anything major like a head fracture ofc....maybe after 5 charges...idk I'd need to see that tested but I REALLY want there to be consequences for hitting objects you shouldn't with how mobile charge is

[dusky surge]

a fleeing teno can actually use the water to just scamper off

[thin mantle]

Yeah....but deino tho....

I'd rather fight even 3 carnos...than that

[dusky surge]

you'd be surprised how hard it is to kill a teno as a deino

[thin mantle]

If you bodyblock and bite them instead of lunging it's pretty easy

[dusky surge]

insane oxygen levels, great swim stam and swim speed

(if the deino is smart, they'd go for the carno instead)

[thin mantle]

Like I never actually drown my tenos...just bring them to the middle of the water and execute them

They basically never escape it

I wouldn't have a problem with water being more prevalent for tenos if deinos were detectable....it being a random chance risk devoid of evaluation is super lame

[wispy kite]

That’s exactly what I think about people claiming Carno is fine and should not be nerfed.

In U5 there were barely any people capable of soloing a teno or Carno as Utah. That’s just plainly wrong.

I am just gonna say it again. The population on the server speaks for itself.

[obtuse ocean]

I would rather have carnos killing utahs then the other way around, why should you as utah have the luxery of not fearing anything? Only when you decide to attack something is when you might die, if you do a mistake. If carno can barely chase down a utah, you wont have much that can.

[thin mantle]

Well A, carno isn't fine but it doesn't need too many nerfs, charge needs to not deal knockdowns, moving abilities need a fix for hitboxes...and hitting a solid object should stagger you...but it's SIGNIFICANTLY better than it was last patch...the fact that omnis can still finesse carnos in forests is more than proof of this.

Yeah nah, it was surprisingly common, all I can say on that is that my friends and I had relatively frequent stories of doing just that on Utah....if you even really died as an omni against a carno it was...well we'd sorta just laugh at you because their movement is so predictable and you can pounce their face to dodge them and negate all damage if you're not horrendously out of favor with ping...

Also the server populations don't speak for themselves in that regard....most people are on deino...the omnis playing the game for some reason think that they can be in the open plains and have a pitched duo against an adult carno despite them placing themselves in the only environment where they lack the advantage....they don't utilize the forests...they don't try to drain stam...they don't play the long game...which is exactly what omni is designed for...

Also carno is like...the ONLY animal in the game that can and possibly ever will be a threat to omni...omni has god tier stamina and is incredibly fast...what is supposed to actually be a problem for it aside from a carno in the plains?

[dusky surge]

i think charge should deal knockdowns, just not to teno-sized animals

[thin mantle]

I know...I just think carno is drastically more interesting to play without them

Like charges turn rate is genuinely good enough to justify not dealing knockdown...the fact that carno is able to deal constant bite tier damage+ over the duration of the animation makes tagging targets WAY easier than if you used bite...which to me is enough of a reward for the cost

Tho if it also took staggers on hitting rocks or trees...and had an initial cost...the knockdown on the smalls is fine

[analog mirage]

Idk I feel the Carno charge turn buff was a bit too much since Teno almost never is able to Tailslam when Carno doesn’t need to worry about aiming a charge since it turns almost as good as it’s regular running

[golden coral]

Didn't they nerf the regular running? Seem to recall that was changed precisely because charge actually became useful. The issue isn't the charge per say, it's the hitbox and the CC that comes with it, especially against things like teno (not that carno should neccesarily hunt tenos anyway).

[analog mirage]

Lemme check patch notes

[slender egret]

In my opinion the charge turn rate of the carno should be redused, but dont change the normal turn speed

[tired urchin]

stego is not supposed to be an apex. deino should be able to fight t-rex. its way too unrealistic that a stegos tiny head can tank a deino bite. it should be 3 bites from deino on the head kill it

[dusky surge]

it literally is meant to be an apex, devs have said so

[analog mirage]

Hmmm if they did change sprint turning I didn’t notice it

[slender egret]

The stego and the deino are in a good spot

[tired urchin]

for now untill they add more herbis

[slender egret]

yeah

[tired urchin]

ig for now it should be an apex

[analog mirage]

The only way I’d say keep this insanely good charge is if Carnos sprint turning got nerfed a bit more, more startup on acceleration but with a little bit better stamina

[tired urchin]

but when other herbis like trike and stuff are added it should fall to mid-apex

[slender egret]

that would be interesting to test

[dusky surge]

just take off the fact it can knockdown animals like teno. Make it only able to knock down animals 75% its own size, so it can continue hunting smalls

[wispy kite]

It’s a game. Not supposed to be realistic, it’s supposed to be fun for everyone. Deino can literally catch anything, except stego. To kill a stego you just have to wait till one is actually crossing.

[analog mirage]

Why would you remove knockdown for Teno

[dusky surge]

it is always meant to be an apex, also mid-apex isn't a thing. The devs have explicitly called it an apex animal, with or without other herbivores like trike

[dusky surge]

Because it's absurd?

[golden coral]

What do you mean it's not supposed to be an apex? Based on what? Also no, deino should not be fighting rexes, that seems a bit strange, especially if deinos will struggle with spinos in water at that.

[golden coral]

Hm, I think I might have meant the last point there, that they adjusted the normal sprint turn because of the new charge turn.

[analog mirage]

And it’s not absurd a Teno kick can stun a Carno?

[dusky surge]

The charge currently can still be dodged by smaller animals, it's the larger animals that struggle. Let carno stagger and damage them with the charge, but knockdown is silly

[dusky surge]

Knockdown and stun are very different

[analog mirage]

Either way you are forced to not do anything for a locked period of time

[tired urchin]

but stegos stay near the water and go on the islands to hunt the crocs, they are herbis not carnis

[golden coral]

It'd be more fine if teno only got staggered/stunned by the charge, not knockdown perhaps. That still gives you an advantage, but not the same kind of free as a full knockdown.

[dusky surge]

^

[golden coral]

Also times could be adjusted at that.

[dusky surge]

I'm not suggesting remove all stuns, just make it stagger, rather than knockdown

[analog mirage]

I mean as long as Carno can still effectively hunt Teno with hit and run I’m fine

[golden coral]

And you think a trike, or anky, or a sauropod wont? Or a rex or giga wont? You're not an apex fighter, apex as you are, so just.. avoid the other apexes more often than not.

[analog mirage]

Just shouldn’t be as easy as it is now

[golden coral]

I don't know, I don't think carno should hunt teno honestly, it's almost as big as itself.

But in pairs, and with more "brawling" perhaps.

[dusky surge]

Yea, don't remove that, just make it that carno needs to play more competently around teno

[analog mirage]

What’s next make Carno a small game hunter

[golden coral]

Yes, carno is a small game hunter, that's literally what it's meant to do.

[tired urchin]

i think they will too, so i think deino should have its bite force from 500 to 650

[analog mirage]

If it was a small game hunter it wouldn’t have a dryo fill less than 1/4 of its stomach

[mental roost]

Stego is a 6-8 ton animal.. it being able to be hunted by and also fighting back against apexes and whatever the tier directly below them is , is fine.

It's a slow moving tank with 3 ft long (or .9) meter long thagomizers on the end of its tail with a critical weak point that is slow moving and incredibly easy to spot and run away from. Likewise, Ankylosaurus, and Triceratops are also slow moving tanks that are easy to avoid so long as you keep distance.

They can't really flee or hide well, so they make up for it in health and firepower.

Stego is also the tallest of the 3 I listed I think, which further makes it easier to spot as it stands out alot

[golden coral]

Eh, I guess, but do keep in mind stego and others might be powered up in the future, so it won't really "fix" your issue.

[golden coral]

It's meant to be a small game hunter, that's whats it's said to do, and what the new charge ties into.

[slender egret]

there aren't enough small creatures for carno to hunt, but in my opinion carno should hunt tenos

[tired urchin]

to balance the bite force, maybe each bite could drain some stam?

[analog mirage]

I’d agree if hunting small game was viable. Dryo barely fills you and I’m not sure about Omni this patch how much it fills

[dusky surge]

sure, no one is denying that, but it should require skill and ability to do so

[golden coral]

Omni, pachy, dryo. Most of the roster is "small game" in a sense. And sure, it can, but not very well, and I don't see it using charge vs something like teno, just more so "brawling", preferably with a fellow carno at that.

[golden coral]

Maybe if we also get the whole being able to fight even without stam. I'm not opposed to letting normal bites take stam, but not right now at the very least.

[analog mirage]

I mean the biggest things I see Carno soloing is Teno or Magy

[golden coral]

Sounds about right. I'm not opposed to carnos hunting tenos, I'm mostly opposed to them hunting them in the same manner as they would proper small game. So less charge, or less charge reliant at least, and more outright fight, which is also more dangerous for the carno, being somewhat limited in drawn out engagemnts.

[dusky surge]

more biting, hit and run, calculated attacks and using charge occasionally, rather than repeatedly

[analog mirage]

I thought Carno vs Teno was fine before though

[wild cove]

I mean the one problem with "the omnis playing the game for some reason think that they can be in the open plains and have a pitched duo against an adult carno despite them placing themselves in the only environment where they lack the advantage" is most of Omni's AI prey is located in open plains areas.

And most players either congregate in plains or they stealth in forests until they're grown and border on impossible to find most times unless they're braindead 1-calling all day long, and then they go to plains when grown.

Player behavior, AI location, and ability to find food all have an effect on where omni congregate, which most of the time leads back to plains.

Omni shouldn't be 1v1ing Carno no problem. The problem is Carnos don't run solo. Carnos also run in packs. Its common to see 3-4 adult carnos together steamrolling anything they find. A full pack of 8 omni are just easy happy meals on legs at that point.

[tired urchin]

i mean, deino shoud be king of the water, it should not get bossed around by other dinos. i know its a game but. IRL a deino would have likely been able kill a drinking trex. so i just feel like land apexs should also fear deino

[slender egret]

if they are near the water yeah

[tired urchin]

yea, only near water

[golden coral]

Pretty much, charge to me should be the "I can keep up with you" for the small and agile stuff. Teno isn't the kind of prey you'd chase down like that, so less charging and more "fighting seems good to me.

[golden coral]

I think spino might be that, not deino. Deino is king of the water, in a sense, just not in the sense of being untouchable on shoelines. But out in the open water, you're safe as safe can be, nothing can go out and get you there. And yeah, but game balance over real ife, and I don't think deino deserves to fight apexes when it can oneshot everything up to 4T (which is a good deal of the roster from what I know). It can still survive any terrestial apex by just swimming away and become entirely untouchable, more than pretty much any playable aside from ptera.

[obtuse ocean]

Then you need to change his grab ability, cus that is not gonna help deino in any match against bigger dinos. Deino will swim away if a spino shows up, but that grab ability is incredibly. It will have tons of stuff to grab on its menu when more dinos gets added

[wild cove]

Deino can basically one-shot everything on the current roster except Stego and other Deino, yeah

[tired urchin]

i think we wait for spino and see what happens, i didnt think of spino. that will shake things up

[wild cove]

If it can pull you out into the water

Only thing is its pretty BS that stegos can just sit and fish for Deinos and kill like 5 of them no sweat in their own domain

[tired urchin]

yea, maybe if a big dino bites its tail it cant swing it for a bit?

[dusky surge]

i still think its ridiculous deinos actually manage to die to that lol

[slender egret]

the only think that can fight an adult deino, for now, is another adult deino or an adult stego, until more big dinos are added, those 2 should not be changed much

[dusky surge]

deinos have everything they need to easily avoid that

i fully believe it is like fishing with no bait and waiting for the stupidest fish to bite

[tired urchin]

yea but it makes stegos toxic

[wild cove]

On the one hand, yes, but considering I've seen five deinos literally surround a stego so it can't move away, biting it to death, and the stego survived and all 5 deinos died, that's a little bit ridiculous

[tired urchin]

they are just annoying when they do that, it ruins the game

[dusky surge]

i'd rather stegos standing uselessly on the side of a river than deino ruling the land with an iron fist

[golden coral]

And as long as you plan your area properly, not even stegos can get you. Yes there are some spots that are dangerous, but in general, you can avoid stegos. Only thing that can reliably go after you is another deino.

[dusky surge]

that's 5 really bad deinos

[mental roost]

Thanks for the art idea

[golden coral]

It is. On top of the fish not understanding what makes a good area to hang out in or not :p

[dusky surge]

its like saying pachy is broken because 5 omnis who don't know what they're doing got thrashed by a single pachy

[mental roost]

It's supposed to take ideally only 2 good Deinos to kill 1 Stego that's dumb enough to stand and fight, at least according to Aken and a few other individuals who've managed it...but that's the thing, those are Stegos who are ...pretty much herbivore Deino players, as Stego should really just run away , just like Deino should

[golden coral]

That, was either a hacking stego or the deinos were utterly useless. Two deinos can fight a stego at shoreline, three on land will kill it unless it flees. Having five of them surrounding a stego and all attacking, yeah, there's no way a stego survives that unless the deinos are just not hitting, or something else is wrong.

[wild cove]

I don't disagree but its still stupid lol

[dusky surge]

not really, refer to prior point about pachy

[tired urchin]

i still think a bite force increase from 500 to 650 for deino would be good. they could just make an alt attack for deino that does lots of damage but uses stam

[golden coral]

That's correct, it does. Two of you can, due to stun + just biting/alt biting. Its very much doable, and the stego have to run or die, if it can run at that (depends on how you blocked it in or not and so on).

[wild cove]

I mean I've killed a stego 1v1 by just luring it back and forth over a river repeatedly so not like I don't know you can win those fights

[dusky surge]

i'd agree with you if we had more of an apex population, but if it is just to basically wipe out stegos, i disagree

deino does not at all need to be taking on stegos competently at this stage of the game

[mental roost]

How to catch a stego player that gets overconfident season 1

[slender egret]

lol

[obtuse ocean]

But why care about stego deino, later in game these will prob have zero confrontation. They gonna have much more stuff to worry about deino will have more stuff to spend time on then a stego lol

[tired urchin]

i think deino is fine for now, but as the game gets more dinos it should get buffed

[thin mantle]

So stick to tree lines…it’ll be even easier to lure carnos into a kill box that way…pick off the AI that you find along the way and don’t venture into the plains…a single boar will fill you up and they’re everywhere…and if you’re un ironically risking death by Carno for a rabbit AI deep in the plains then that’s a severe skill issue.

“Most players congregate to the plains when grown”
Not sure why this is supposed to matter…the 5 relevant land Dino’s are Carno, Omni, Pachy, teno, and stego.
Pachy hard counters Omni by design, so it’s basically not worth considering as you’d have to massively outnumber one to kill it and it’s not particularly hindered by terrain…AKA better prey exists…
Teno sticks mostly to tree lines and occasionally the plains because they can defend against a Carno…but in the open Carno sorta decimates it…which it shouldn’t as badly as it does now because teno is outside of carnos expertise…it needs a stun nerf…stego is by design a hard counter to omnis so it sticking to the plains is basically irrelevant to them…as those hunts should be rare requiring a massive group to engage…and then there’s Carno….the predator who’s sole purpose is to hunt animals with omnis specificities in the open plains…

What about any of this is necessarily unfair for omnis when they:
1: Can easily find AI on the tree line….especially near south….
2: Can negate the advantages of their one and only legitimate threat by sticking to said treelines…
3: Are the prey group of said threat.

[dusky surge]

deino is already an easy S-Tier animal, with only one bad matchup in the game (that being stego, who is arguably less powerful than deino due to a lower health pool, no bleed resist, harder growth and no safety to retreat to).

Having deino favourably matchup against stego is literal disaster fuel

[thin mantle]

Deino is comically overpowered rn…the idea of it getting any buff past its current state is utterly insane

[dusky surge]

^

Besides ptera, it's the most viable animal in the game

[thin mantle]

It’s not even a bad matchup…it’s just slightly out of favor with it….you can still solo stegos

[golden coral]

Yep. Same for deinos really, both sides have players that just wants to fight and do not understand the concept of retreat :p

[tired urchin]

not against stego, the stego has too much of an advantage in a crco vs stego fight

[slender egret]

dont forget hypsi, it's always fun playing as one

[dusky surge]

This is the biggest issue imho, people really don't know how to leave something alone or just... not take a stupid fight

[mental roost]

"IF I AM TO DIE, I AM TO DIE STANDING!!"~Stego and Deino players

[thin mantle]

No it doesn’t….name one reason deino and stegos matchup should be entirely equivalent if not deino sided

[dusky surge]

hypsi is fun, but not super viable. Do love hypsi tho

[obtuse ocean]

I dont mess with stegos on land, ive accepted that defeat. Dont know why thats hard, im not supose to have anything on it on land.

[frail bobcat]

did somebody else notice how op the recovery for the pachy ram is?

[thin mantle]

It’s a bug based on terrain that’s been in the game forever, the recovery itself hasn’t changed

[tired urchin]

i dont think stego or deino needs to change rn, im just saying deino should get a buff when more apex are added to the game

[thin mantle]

Why

Or do you just want aqua rex

[frail bobcat]

but the recovery is too low rn.

[golden coral]

It does not, deino should not have the advantage there, there's no reason for it. Its 99% safe, and can oneshot everything but stego. It's one of the best and most viable playables in the game as it stands.

[obtuse ocean]

but deino is not an apex lol

[slender egret]

i think it is

[tired urchin]

becasue stegos bossing a deino in the water is not right

[wild cove]

My only issue with Deino vs Stego is when Stegos go fishing while standing over bodies that are in water, and the fact that stego jab has a stupidly massive hitbox with its jab similar to the stupidly massive hitbox on Carno charge right now

[thin mantle]

It literally can’t….if a stego is in the water it’s entirely defenseless

[frail bobcat]

you know what you could do? swim away

[dusky surge]

its fine. swim away

[thin mantle]

Swim away….lol

[golden coral]

Well, so would stego. Hopefully stego gets a nice powerup too!

[wild cove]

I do swim away 😛

[thin mantle]

Ok problem solved then right?

[frail bobcat]

7.4 ton stego with 1.5 k damage

[tired urchin]

yea ig

[dusky surge]

it literally is, stop trying to perpetrate this headcanon lol

deino is quite literally an apex

[thin mantle]

Ehhh…it just needs a mobile swing…other than that it needs little

[thin mantle]

It is we’ve been over this

[frail bobcat]

made to kill stuff smaller than it

[slender egret]

stego and deino are good in this state, if later with more bigger dinos are underperforming then they should get buffed

[dusky surge]

he's convinced deino and stego aren't apexes, you can't change his mind. Not even the devs, who have said they are, can convince them stego and deino are apexes

[mental roost]

Honestly, Deino needs more competition first, and also something to make to make Deino vs Deino more engaging and less....frustrating(did the mod seriously delete my message for B S?) , as Deinos are forced to interact with one another and engage, unlike Stego where they can just avoid them as long as the Deino is in water.

[frail bobcat]

a playable able to dominate over half the roster and change player behaviour by its pure existence sounds kinda apex

[thin mantle]

This doesn’t apply to deino because it’s quite literally immune to any terrestrial animals influence….the only animals that have any chance of fatally engaging it are spino and cheirus…which it’s likely faster than…this can’t be said for stego as it has every terrestrial predator capable of fighting it

[tired urchin]

but it makes the game feel broken and too unrealistic. i agree the game does not need to be 100% realistic, but almost any dino should be disadvantaged in or near water

[thin mantle]

It’s never gonna get that until spino is in the game…

[tired urchin]

spino should be the deinos main fear

[dusky surge]

yes yes water rex power fantasy

[thin mantle]

The fact that stego doesn’t oneshot a deino with a single tail swing is unrealistic…but it’s fine because the balance of the game comes first

[frail bobcat]

it will be

[thin mantle]

Why “near” water?

[thin mantle]

Spino would be deinos one and only threat…so yes

[mental roost]

I mean, even something to just tackle the little ones is something... and also well: something to make it so that Deinos can do more than just biting eachother's faces and sitting there hoping that they're outdamaging the other Deino by getting the first bite

[tired urchin]

i mean like in the drinking range

[mental roost]

^ this. Spears going into your head will never not hurt

[tired urchin]

i think anky should should do more damage than a stego

[thin mantle]

This style of combat can only be changed by fundamentally altering deinos combat mechanics tbf…this won’t change with the addition of other playables…

[dusky surge]

why???

[frail bobcat]

nah, less damage but fractures

[slender egret]

an anky would break your bones

[thin mantle]

Why? It’s functionally immortal to far more things than stego is and deals fracture damage

[tired urchin]

yea

[mental roost]

Exactly,... and honestly I don't really know how someone would change it either, as Deino is very sedentary, chunky and immobile. But anything to maybe make it less......dull

[tired urchin]

its the land tank. it should be slow have lots of hp and deal lots og damage

[thin mantle]

Which is fine…I’d prefer it to have any sort of depth to its gameplay but as it stands that’s not likely to happen…so until that time comes let’s not go inflating deino to be stronger against the only things in the game that cause it any discomfort….it already oneshots the majority of the animals in game with no counterplay

[thin mantle]

Yes….but not more than stego

[golden coral]

Well yes, new attacks and better functionality as a stego would be nice, and is more or less needed. But I also don't see a reason not to up it to 8T, and add the gular armor. It'd still be more in line with our acro than any of the other larger things anyway I'm pretty sure.

[tired urchin]

hmm ig, but if its slow

[slender egret]

gular armor?

[mental roost]

I mean to be fair... Stego is probably going to swing faster anyway, so even if it does less damage per hit, it'll likely be doing more damage as a whole due to DPS/swing speed

[thin mantle]

Yeah but those changes should come as per there need…I can’t think of a reason rn to buff stego that way specifically in reference to the future roster

[tired urchin]

yeah

[thin mantle]

My main point is that Anky doesn’t need to deal that much if any damage to be entirely functional defensively whilst stego absolutely does…which is why stego would deal more damage per hit regardless of the hits frequency

[golden coral]

Neck/throat armor. Turns out stegos had armor, which I guess makes sense with the whole "tiny and weak head". :p

[golden coral]

Well yes, I did not mean it needed to be done right now by any means. You know better than that, I was talking power ups for the future, if deino gets one as well and so on.

[slender egret]

thx

[thin mantle]

If it can casually bodyslam a giga off it and 2 acros can’t even dent it….why would it also need over 1.25k damage on top of the highest fracture damage in game

[analog mirage]

I’d assume it does the same amount of damage, you are still getting smacked with a giant boulder of a tail

Stego swings spikes, Anky swings a big rock

[tired urchin]

same damage but with fracture sounds right

[thin mantle]

Oh I knew that XD
Those buffs just seem specific to deal with certain struggles it will have…when those struggles aren’t all that known yet…current stego with a waggle may be all it needs indefinitely

[wild cove]

those big spikes seem arguably much more deadly

than a club

[analog mirage]

Would probably do a bit more damage but not too much

[thin mantle]

As far as their capacity to kill you and the strength behind it….absolutely

[tired urchin]

nah the kinetic energy of a anky club would do way more damage

[analog mirage]

Cause remember. Anky is the slowest dinosaur in the game and is built like a impenetrable fortress

[slender egret]

not the same damage, less, otherwise carnivores with broken legs and bodies would die to a slow moving tank with a club

[analog mirage]

That’s your fault for messing with a Anky in the first place ig

[thin mantle]

Also that…stego can’t halve the movement speed stam and damage of its opponents…Anky can

[slender egret]

absolutely, you should be carefull, like with the packys, just not as fast as one

[analog mirage]

You chose to fight the slowest dinosaur in the game that is built to be the ultimate defender and don’t be surprised if you die

[thin mantle]

I feel like there’s loads of contexts where something could take an Anky hit without trying to engage the Anky itself where the attack should be survivable for some

[wild cove]

When carnos fight stegos

[obtuse ocean]

In concept it looked like anky could sit down and get up incredible fast and throw a punch

[slender egret]

i've only seen it once, and the carnos died

it was hilarious

[thin mantle]

Back in U3 when carnos regularly killed stegos in groups of 3 or more….it was awful

[mental roost]

Anky doing more per hit is fine though, as it's still doing less DPS, which is overall less damage.

Not saying to make Anky do way more, or Stego to have way less, rip but in the grand scheme of things, Stego will always probably have the higher overall damage, even if it does less damage per hit, the same or higher as Anky.

Anky chunky and easily avoidable, with a slower but heavy hitting attack with fractures

Stego not nearly as armored but attacks hard and fast

Neither is gonna be a good time to be on the receiving end of for sure

[analog mirage]

Only two ways a Anky hits you: either you fight it or it somehow got a ambush on you (which you are a bad player)

[mental roost]

Wasn't U2 worse in that regard?? Or is my memory foggy??

[tired urchin]

yep

[thin mantle]

I’m fine with this outside if the context of fractures….but fractures being the most powerful status effect in the game massively alters this

[analog mirage]

Also it’s not like it would one shot Apex’s. They can take a few hits but that doesn’t mean they can’t die to it

[thin mantle]

It was….4 pounces killed a stego with raw damage and the stego literally couldn’t do anything about it

[wild cove]

I remember when stego was very first introduced, it was bad. Two carnos could decimate whole herds of stegos. Then stegos got a major buff and it was nothing but endless whining from carno mains why they can't wipe out entire herds of stegos and kept dying to jabs

[slender egret]

WHAT!

[tired urchin]

only big apexs like rex and giga and maybe spino should be able to take on anky

utahs shouldnot be able to pierce the ankys armor if they ride it

[analog mirage]

Honestly I see it as spino and Rex being capable of killing Anky while Giga would struggle

[mental roost]

I mean, the attacks still not coming out particularly fast I imagine, so the damage shouldn't stack up too quickly (if you're playing as a properly large animal mind you), unlike Stego who'll nail you over and over and quickly get damage into the 2000's to 4000's if it's landing headshots(and the apexes all have big heads which makes them easier to hit)

[obtuse ocean]

In concept you see a anky sitting down while 2 acros tries biting it shell, and then it stands up and slap one of the acros. I like that, if u can get up quickly and throw a punch : P

[thin mantle]

I still wouldn’t tie a 1.5-2k damage hit onto an animal that basically nothing can kill that also fractures everything with a single hit…like Anky is strong but what’s to stop it from dealing 10 or 20K damage since it’s already basically designed to kill anything it hits

[slender egret]

spino is a bit far stretched, since it is a piscivore

[frail bobcat]

can somebody give this man the spino concept art?

[obtuse ocean]

Spino can flip an anky : P

[thin mantle]

The damage just seems so unnecessarily high considering you also have astronomically high HP and armor :p

[slender egret]

i havent seen it, should i be worried?

[thin mantle]

What would a giga even do?

[frail bobcat]

yes, its freaking bad

[analog mirage]

I imagine Anky be bleed resistant so not much I see Giga doing

[thin mantle]

I’m 100% convinced that’ll never actually be added or is just a Finisher

[tired urchin]

bite the ankys head?

[thin mantle]

Heheh…that’s a good joke

[obtuse ocean]

that could be true

[slender egret]

Dear God

[thin mantle]

If a spino can just….rmb and Anky and it dies because turtle logic even after an ambush….that’d be so insanely lame

[tired urchin]

god dam

[slender egret]

ok i take back everything i said about spino, Jesus

[mental roost]

Well it looks high but, is it really that high when dealing with animals with say 6-potentially 10k health?? Say Stego hits 1350 per (whatever its attack interval is now at the fastest), and Anky hits for 1400 and attacks 15-20% slower than Stego, that attack speed quickly adds up in Stego's favor

[tired urchin]

but rex would have an easy time killing one

[mental roost]

Didn't they give up on finishers a long time ago??

Stop making me feel old

[thin mantle]

Again….fractures and borderline impenetrable armor….the damage calculation based on speed isn’t very one to one when one animal is massive compared to the other and has armor that negates damage up to an acros bite bare minimum

[thin mantle]

No they’ve been reconfirmed several times recently actually

[obtuse ocean]

I can do that with grab,soo

[tired urchin]

is that spino lifting up that deino somehow?

[analog mirage]

How I see it is:!you have to be able to get up to the Anky and flip it, but this is also risking it seeing you and hitting you before you get up giving it the advantage. If you manage to get to it you go into a stamina battle of flipping. Flipping a Anky removes it’s armor value as it’s on its belly now so it’s way easier to kill. But a Anky has two options during this

A:let if flip you so you conserve more stamina to fight back while flipped

B: use stamina to try and hold out to not get flipped

[mental roost]

Huh, didn't know that.. was this recent?? I swear they didn't like the idea of death animations back in......2016???? 2017??

[slender egret]

the dead one yes

[tired urchin]

the live one tho

[thin mantle]

That’s a very different concept to finishers…they’d be a cancelable kill animation based on the dino…or at least that’s the plan

[tired urchin]

looks like it is

[slender egret]

no, its just going to be cut in half

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, spino will kill deinos : P

[thin mantle]

Can we please not add another stam battle mechanic….calling them a mechanic at all is borderline lying

[tired urchin]

yea

[analog mirage]

Tbf this would only apply to Rex, (maybe) Giga and spino

[azure crescent]

a shame

[tired urchin]

but a deino bite to the head of a spino should make the spino worry a lil

[mental roost]

I remember they had a TSL Rex thrashing around a TSL Carno as an experiment back then somewhere...but hey if they pull off finishers proper then, nice

Sounds like a lot of work to get working right though, as meat still tends to clip through animal's mouths

[thin mantle]

It would HAVE to only apply to spino….how would the other two possible flip an animal heavier than they are with a center of gravity at ground level

[mental roost]

Could get situations where the animation starts, and the two are like 5 meters apart sliding around

[obtuse ocean]

How come ? That grab ability is amasing, i wouldt thouch spino if i could go toe to toe with a spino and have the grab

[thin mantle]

It would be…it probably won’t come for quite a massive amount of time

[azure crescent]

it should be more equal in deeper water

since spino, you know, can't really "swim"

[hollow canyon]

Rex killed an Allo with 2 bites in legacy, now you will likely need many more.

[analog mirage]

I can see Rex having a heavy head so it’s possible to just flip it over using that ig or shoving it’s body against it to flip it

[tired urchin]

not as will as deino

[azure crescent]

no i mean like spino in the isle literally cannot swim

[tired urchin]

oh yea

[azure crescent]

it walks underwater and does boosts

[tired urchin]

legacy

[thin mantle]

That’d be absolutely hilarious….I hope that never happens because I’d laugh every time I’d see it

[azure crescent]

so in deep water naturally deino has the advantage

[mental roost]

World's strongest neck

[azure crescent]

or, should have the advantage

[analog mirage]

Idk. Has to be some way to kill a Anky

[thin mantle]

Does it?

Or at least one that involves flipping?

[analog mirage]

Yes because otherwise every player will go for it if it’s unkillable

[obtuse ocean]

You saying im gonna spend 20 min hiding/looking for prey and when i finally get close enough it just gonna laught at me after i bite it ?

[analog mirage]

What I see the flip as is a high risk high reward play

[thin mantle]

I see it as antigravity

[mental roost]

I imagine growing an Anky is.....a pain in the ass, because they have no diversity as they grow up whatsoever, and are incapable of really fleeing or hiding once they hit a certain size that is still outside of the safety zone for them.

[hollow canyon]

if you bite it with a normal bite - yea, you're not gonna be killing it very fast

[slender egret]

the only way a rex could flip an anky would be with it's head, it would have to risk a broken head for a flipped anky

[analog mirage]

Tbf. Quetz picking up a Gali is a thing we don’t need gravity on our side

[thin mantle]

Then a rex that has more stam than you RMBs you to death

[obtuse ocean]

And with abiility ?

[hollow canyon]

No idea

[thin mantle]

And that isn’t also comically terrible?

Not even just physics wise….the balance of that is absurd

[obtuse ocean]

Doesent make sense what you say

[wild cove]

Too bad most of the current map's rivers is only just deep enough that an adult deino barely disappears under it

Dunno about the new map, I haven't looked yet

[analog mirage]

It’s gonna have to turn like a bus in flight

[dusky surge]

spino killing deino with ease is one of the worst concepts ever for this game

[slender egret]

the new map has huge lakes and rivers

[thin mantle]

And?

[frail bobcat]

I know and I love it

[slender egret]

yeah

[dusky surge]

VERY deep

[hollow canyon]

It very much does - I have no idea what T.rex's abilities are going to work like I know however that T.rex isn't going to have so much biteforce to 2-shot an Allo.

[wild cove]

Good. The current map on live is kind of ass for aquatics.

[hollow canyon]

To 2 shot an Allo T.rex would need something like 1500+ dmg on its bite, it's not happening.

[obtuse ocean]

Not damage , i agree. As i said, BB killed allos. Not the damage itself

[thin mantle]

It’s awful for everything…Spiro is just terrible to play on

[analog mirage]

Rex is the only one able to bypass ankys armor with its sheer biteforce so ig flipping isn’t necessary for it

[hollow canyon]

nah, I know that it's the BB that killed Allos but T.rex still needed only 2 bites to kill a fully grown Allo.

[analog mirage]

But spino and Giga would need it

[wild cove]

Awful for everything but carnos*

[thin mantle]

It’s still awful for them….

[slender egret]

thankfully the new map will be huge

[obtuse ocean]

Thats true, but you still would have died even if it needed 4.

[dusky surge]

Nah, it's pretty good for carnos tbh. Carnos don't seem very good on the new map in my experience (at least, not as oppressive as they were)

[mental roost]

I imagine growing an Anky is.....a pain in the butt, because they have no diversity as they grow up whatsoever, and are incapable of really fleeing or hiding once they hit a certain size that is still outside of the safety zone for them.

Is this new bot the same one that demonetizes videos on the daily?

[slender egret]

the new map has bigger open fields, so i think carnos will be good

[hollow canyon]

1v1 most certainly, BB however isn't quite as potent as in legacy either in Evrima.

[analog mirage]

That’s cause migration isnt a thing and with such a big map with only 100 players it’s hard to find anyone

[thin mantle]

As far as viability sure…but I’m not talking just about viability as much as I’m talking about the maps layout and diversity…it’s terrible to play on overall…it only favors carnos deinos and pteras because they have the fewest weaknesses

[dusky surge]

Not from what I've seen. (I'm on Gateway atm). There are open fields, sure, but they aren't half as frequent as Spiro's

[thin mantle]

Thankfully

[slender egret]

then they balanced them for the other dinos as well

[dusky surge]

Actually, migration isn't a thing, that's part of the problem

If migration were a thing, food would be easier to obtain

[obtuse ocean]

Well thats my point, if you manage to ambush an allo. Its dead. If not you gonna have a hard time huntung

[slender egret]

also, i hope you are having a time

[wild cove]

Honestly I always dominate Spiro as a carno with ease no matter if its fields or forest and I don't main carno, I prefer Hypsi > anything else. But everything else that has actual growth is a less than ideal experience.

[dusky surge]

The Stress Test build for Gateway has no migrations as of now

[mental roost]

Anyway, until the bot decided to censor me

Anky doesn't really change much as they grow up, making any anky below large sub adult, pretty much fodder to Apexes or gangs of mid tiers(animals in the 2.5 to 5 ton range)

I'd argue even young Stego has it better off, because it can at least move more quickly and its DPS kicks in earlier and is safer/more reliable,...though still suffers the curse of being a chunky infant

[analog mirage]

Yeah I corrected it. I meant that it isn’t currently ingame

[thin mantle]

That’s how I am with Pachy….literally nothing can kill me…but again my original point wasn’t really about viability

[azure crescent]

IDK, gateway's waterways are pretty deep and wide

[wild cove]

Was talking about Spiro

[tired urchin]

one last thing i want in the isle is playable pterodaclys

[thin mantle]

Why would you want a permanent playable fresh spawn ptera

[analog mirage]

Here’s a idea of when spino is a thing: if you are playing deino just swim away

[wild cove]

I mean that's fair. As a world designer, Spiro always made my eye twitch. The newest changes to the map since Jace came on are definitely welcome but it still has tons of problems as a map that desperately need fixing. Probably won't be fixed so much as scrapped though since they're working on the new map

[mental roost]

I think that's something you'd have to wait on Sandbox for? Which would allow playable Compys and other AI I think.... because both compy and pterdactylus are tiny

Still sad they plan on giving Brachi that treatment too...

[tired urchin]

what, i mean like if they make it a fully fleshed-out dino.

[thin mantle]

The maps layout is fundamentally flawed as far as I’m concerned…like it needs significant topographical overhauls to be considered passable

[obtuse ocean]

They will after a few deaths , just like me when i tho i could kill a rex with giga

[azure crescent]

i'm aware, but talking about spiro right now isn't very fair

[analog mirage]

You can in legacy

[thin mantle]

How would it differ from a fresh spawn ptera but worse

[wild cove]

I don't see why not because its the map 98% of anyone playing Evrima has access to

[hollow canyon]

I don't necessarily think that, based on what they've shown of T.rex so far it seems more like an endurance hunter than an ambush hunter.

[analog mirage]

Me on legacy when I killed a Rex

[dusky surge]

i hate this, so much

[hollow canyon]

but we will see, it's all up for a change

[dusky surge]

because droughts exist

so if you're a deino, and you get caught in a drought, no way you're outpacing the spino on land, so you just die

[wild cove]

I can't wait for droughts

[tired urchin]

maybe it could be like a utah, but in the sky. it could latch onto larger birds and slow them down and bring them to the ground

[dusky surge]

its completely horrid conceptually

[wild cove]

If you're a deino on land, you aren't outpacing anything lol

[analog mirage]

Perhaps deino should use less stamina on land since it isn’t exactly fast

[wild cove]

Not adult deino anyway

[hollow canyon]

I'd say: don't get caught in a drought with a Spino nearby

[wild cove]

Or just don't sprint unless you need to when on land as a deino lol

[thin mantle]

How in the world do you even attempt to play against that unless it does so little damage that you can ignore it’s existence….like pounce is already a horrible enough mechanic as it is…now you need to dedicate resources to kill a pounced that can not only fly but takes zero time to grow….

[mental roost]

Yeah.......that is something that should definitely be looked into...

First thing would probably be make it so that droughts give off hints/clues beforehand?? But then you could just log in and be screwed as well...

[thin mantle]

Also Ptero weighs about as much as a sheet of paper so it having a weight based combat mechanic would be quite strange

[dusky surge]

I'd say let the two animals be on equal terms and actually inspire interesting dynamic interactions, rather than having everything deino represents be a black and white spectrum of either lose or win. I much prefer the idea of deino winning in the deep waters, and spino winning in shallows and on land

[thin mantle]

Make deinos combat even remotely skill expressive first, then they can have a pitched matchup

[tired urchin]

once again i never said to add it in its current form. but. make it slower than most birds so its only a minor threat

[dusky surge]

If you're going to make deino an animal that is only good in water, and spino an animal that is good in both land and water, perhaps consider making deino have an advantage on home turf, while spino can take advantage of poor-performance on land

[tired urchin]

or make it so juvi pters cant pounce

[hollow canyon]

I mean, I think the bleed should work differently and I'm not a fan of many other things in Evrima, feel free to argue with the devs about it, it's their intention to have Deino lose to Spino.

[thin mantle]

The only thing it could even potentially be a threat to are fresh spawn pteras….

[mental roost]

Could somehow altering Deino's movement lead to future potential combat changes???

Probably not, but it's a thought

[hollow canyon]

I generally agree with that intention but for other reasons.

[dusky surge]

It's the most bizarre balancing decision I've ever seen from them tbh. And that is saying a lot

[thin mantle]

Yes but it’s not really an animal you CAN alter in that way to any substantial degree…tho one thing I do want and thing everything should have is the ability to walk backwards…but deino most of all

[tired urchin]

yes but in groups it could do a lot more

[obtuse ocean]

Yea ofcourse ive done it, if i get suprise attack. But head one , thats a though one

[mental roost]

Yeah, that is something I can see, there's plenty of videos of crocs and gators backing up into either water, or having a stand off with another adult close in size

[slim dragon]

Ho much does a pterodactylus weigh ? Is it even above 1 kg ?

[thin mantle]

To what? And why? It’s a flier they can’t be strong without being overly oppressive…like getting attacked by a swarm of pteras is tantamount to getting swarmed by angry post-it notes

[hollow canyon]

nvm much less

[obtuse ocean]

Wonder what concept art you been looking at, ive seen only the ones where they brawl. And they said it will be a copy more or less from what it was

[dusky surge]

I much prefer deinosuchus and deinocherius as the respective rulers of their homes (suchus in depths, cherius in shallows). Spino, on the other hand, can comfortably walk into either one and challenge the owner for the territory. Spino has the advantage of freedom to pick its own areas and challenge whoever they want, while cherius could never challenge a deino in depths, and a deino could never challenge a cherius in shallows

[slim dragon]

xD

[thin mantle]

Ptero not ptera

[dusky surge]

2kg I believe

[hollow canyon]

Yea I just read again what he asked for

[thin mantle]

Is it even? That seems too high idk

[tired urchin]

idk its just an idea that would probaly work

[mental roost]

I think it'd be around 0.25 kilograms???

[thin mantle]

I can only see it as a wasted server slot tbh

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it would weigh a kg

[tired urchin]

not much but if they use there wings to create drag, they could bring down other flyers

[hollow canyon]

it has a wingspan of only 1m so

[obtuse ocean]

You would prob need to take away the grab ability then for deino, cus it would prob need an ability or something to use against bigger dinos. Even tho i would never play spino if i could grab and be as strong as spino. Cus spino will not have that nice grab ability

[hollow canyon]

it's pretty tiny

[wild cove]

As someone who also wouldn't mind seeing player compys and small fliers, sorry to say the best you'd get with these are nuisance troll dinos to harass people with to very little effect, the same way people already play ptera and hypsi but with less mechs.

Having tiny fliers dogpile pteras in the sky isn't really that great of an idea. We're already getting Quetz to give Pteras something to fear in the future. We don't need to give them tiny fliers that will just annoy them on top of it

[dusky surge]

Spino has more flexibility in where it can go, as well as being an insane brawler.

Also WHY would the grab ability matter, or need to be removed in order to make this work? Bizarre-ass take.

[tired urchin]

maybe ai could swarm then? like make them slower than most flyers but still a threat if your stupid?

[slim dragon]

That means if you need 45 pteros to kill one ptera ptero is able to punch up to 4x its on weight
That's like omni soloing a carno

Or 5 omnis killing a rex

[thin mantle]

Why in the world would we want this….
Like this sounds as close to anti fun as one could get before entering death lighting territory

[wild cove]

This really is a weird take. What is a Deino going to do, drown a spino? Another semi-aquatic dino?

[tired urchin]

eh idk, just an idea

[thin mantle]

Drown an 8-10 ton animal when it’s max lunge weight is 4

[mental roost]

Question: have any new fliers been revealed or announced or nah?? I only remember Quetzalcoatlus, Pterandon, and Pterodactylus

[hollow canyon]

No, it's not about the match up between it and Spino it's about the fact that the river worm gets to oneshot every small and most of the mid tiers

[obtuse ocean]

What,thats why i said that. It was not my take, i replied to someone who wanted it like that lol

[slim dragon]

Assuming Spino won't be over 15 tons

[thin mantle]

This still depresses me

[wild cove]

My mistake

[analog mirage]

Wait can deino grab sucho

[hollow canyon]

yea the dumb playable that gets to oneshot all of those should absolutely be able to 1v1 the apexes - amazing take right there

[dusky surge]

i dont think so, no

[analog mirage]

Ok good

[hollow canyon]

depends on what estimate of Sucho they go with - with the new ones no longer, no

[thin mantle]

It can grab legacy Sucho….prolly won’t with Evrima Sucho

[dusky surge]

even so, sucho probably shouldn't be near the depths anyway

[analog mirage]

I think largest it can grab is Alberto

[thin mantle]

Even if it was I wouldn’t want that to be the way it dies

[hollow canyon]

Sucho's old estimates put it at around 3.6t or so

so it was very much drownable

it got a size buff irl a few months ago

[slim dragon]

I think even if a deino could grab sucho, I assume sucho ould have a long enough breath time to survive it

[hollow canyon]

and it's now like 4.5t so it's barely safe

[mental roost]

Who do you think should win in theory?? A 4.2 ton Deino or a (4.2?? or 4.5) ton Sucho??

[analog mirage]

On land sucho. In water deino

[thin mantle]

Hopefully the Sucho….

[mental roost]

Population control, before they get big

Leave no survivors

[thin mantle]

Honestly deino shouldn’t win any fight with anything at its own weight or around it

[analog mirage]

Unless it’s fighting in the water

[tired urchin]

a death roll froma deino would snap the suchos bones

[thin mantle]

Lunge is just….well it’s lunge…it kinda necessitates depowering deino if it can do that

[thin mantle]

Sure ig…depends tho still

[mental roost]

This is an immature Deino trying to deathroll a fully grown Sucho

Not exactly the untouchable 8 ton monster it gets at 100%

[analog mirage]

Like if a Rex was in the water swimming around I’d be fine with deino beating it cause it was stupid it went for a swim in first place

[thin mantle]

Ehhh….if crossings become mandatory…

[analog mirage]

If a Rex had to cross that’s like the only time it’s vulnerable to a deino

[tired urchin]

yea, i think the fight should be 60-40 in the deino 60

[thin mantle]

It should be vulnerable but shouldn’t just….die

[analog mirage]

I mean if you stay in the water too long then yeah.

[thin mantle]

Like….this is mandatory….we can’t have anything entering the water risking unavoidable death for a mandatory event

[analog mirage]

The chance a deino kills a apex in water is low. It would have to be really stupid to swim for that long

[tired urchin]

in game yes, but not irl. irl if a rex was drinking and a deino grabbed its head and did a death roll, the rex would die

[azure crescent]

because that same thing won't last very long

[thin mantle]

Ideally that’s how it would go

[thin mantle]

Assuming deinos irl could even do death rolls

[analog mirage]

The only way a Rex dies if it had to just cross a river was if there was more than one deino

[tired urchin]

if they could'nt then the deino would have probaly still crushed the rex's head from its bite force

[golden coral]

Preferably there'd be options to cross without going into water.

Deinos dont need to hunt everything, or hunt everywhere.

[obtuse ocean]

But my lazy as gonna die from not taking those routes

[wild cove]

I mean that really depends because the new map isn't even on the updates list yet beyond "Ongoing Content". We might not see the new map officially finished and released to the general player base until U9 or later for all we know at this current time.

[thin mantle]

Ironically rex had a higher biteforce and fought other rexes without dying…so it may not be so clear cut…rexes skull had to withstand its own biteforce after all

[digital oak]

when you look at baryonyx size and look at it's concept art, how is it meant to stop an 8 tonne croc with it's hands alone.

[tired urchin]

deino bite force irl 102,750 newtons. rex bit force irl 35,000 newtons

[analog mirage]

Might of been a sub

[tired urchin]

but those are estimatoins

[thin mantle]

I see we’re working with outdated data….

[obtuse ocean]

I love that clip where a big as croc walks up on land and gonna steal a tiger meals, 10 min later it was a dead croc

[tired urchin]

let me look into it a lil more

one sec

[azure crescent]

It isn't on the updates list but we know for a fact it's somewhat close to being finished, considering that the gateway that is in the ST is an old build, and that the most updated one (which the ST doesn't have access to) is way more complete, and also possibly in UE5

[wild cove]

Even in modern day, crocs have the highest bite force in the animal kingdom if I recall

[somber sphinx]

No rex had a overall stronger bite than deino

[azure crescent]

I don't see why you'd use something that's inevitably not going to be there by the time spino comes as an example

[digital oak]

some crocodiles aren't as vicious or deadly as Nile crocs and Saltwater crocs, I'm pretty sure the croc that the tiger killed was neither of those 2

[azure crescent]

Purru on the other hand...

[somber sphinx]

Purru is a beast

[azure crescent]

mugger croc, the size of an alligator

[tired urchin]

no rex or no, rex?

[azure crescent]

so medium-small crocodile

[analog mirage]

In the future when apex’s are added i actually wouldn’t mind deinos BF being buffed to like 700 or 750

[somber sphinx]

No, rex

[digital oak]

precisely, mid-sized croc vs worlds biggest cat

[azure crescent]

Yeah

[digital oak]

worlds biggest croc vs worlds biggest cat would definitely go in favour of the croc

[obtuse ocean]

I honestly dnt know , but it must been 2-3 bigger then the tiger

[azure crescent]

By a long shot

[azure crescent]

No, just longer

[obtuse ocean]

Its head was bigger then the tiger lol

[azure crescent]

Mugger crocs and tigers are usually roughly the same size

[tired urchin]

i dont think so

[azure crescent]

Yeah, longer, not heavier

[tired urchin]

all my sites say other wise

[azure crescent]

Mugger crocs usually weigh the same as tigers, but are longer

[wild cove]

Was this croc on land

[azure crescent]

female crocs are out of question, they're pretty small

[analog mirage]

Google says deino was stronger end of discussion

[somber sphinx]

It is, deino didn’t have a stronger bite force than rex, it was probably close

[mellow zenith]

can we have an actual recent answer ?

[thin mantle]

Gotta love 2019

[analog mirage]

[somber sphinx]

Deino has a bite force of somewhere between 30kN-60kN. T.rex is around 70kN

[mellow zenith]

the most recent one that i found was 2021

[thin mantle]

Malnourished rex near death

[tired urchin]

yea lol

ig

[thin mantle]

Anyways it’s 5 am and I work in 4 hours…gn everyone

[analog mirage]

Google never lies 🤓

[azure crescent]

deino had a strong bite, but it was, at most, on par with rex

[tired urchin]

but deino would easily clap a rex if it got the jump on a drink rex

[azure crescent]

i mean yeah of course

[tired urchin]

yea

[analog mirage]

Stronger doesn’t always mean better

[azure crescent]

^

Deino's bite was better for grabbing and keeping hold of prey

While they struggle

Not for actually killing

[analog mirage]

Even if deino had a stronger bite rex could easily just clamp down on its neck or head area and one shot it

[azure crescent]

Rex used its bite to crush bone and kill prey, deino used its bite to grab and drag prey

[tired urchin]

yea, in a 1v1 on land i would say rex wins 8.5 times outa ten

[azure crescent]

It's why sharks can kill whales even though they have weaker bites than salties

[mellow zenith]

pretty sure deino crushed bones aswell in the process

[azure crescent]

Right, but that wasn't the main focus, and wasn't nearly as destructive as rex

[mellow zenith]

ofc

[azure crescent]

If anything broken bones are just a bonus

Because prey can struggle less

Which makes purru all the more terrifying

Since its head is basically a box, and stupidly strong

It no doubt had a stronger bite than deino, even if it was smaller

[mental roost]

Give this man some food

[azure crescent]

it isn't your typical crocodilian skull

[analog mirage]

Hehe, stupid box head croca- AHAHAHAHAA

[somber sphinx]

Purru got stung by a bee

[azure crescent]

big ass head

someone needs to edit the big shoe lmfao meme to have the purru skull

https://tenor.com/view/big-shoe-lmfao-big-shoe-lmfao-gif-21655557

[mental roost]

Caiman: engineered one of the strongest bites nature has seen vs Caiman now: bullied by Jaguars and large water rats( minus large adult black Caiman)

[azure crescent]

most caiman today still survive jaguar attacks

[analog mirage]

Big Purru Lmfao

[azure crescent]

or, escape

[analog mirage]

I like how his went from a discussion about U6 balance to Anky to Deino vs Rex

[digital oak]

The most dangerous croc on earth, even stronger than tyrannosaurus rex:

[analog mirage]

The duality of man

[mental roost]

Well, in general hunts tend to fail more often than they succeed, but still…the damn water rats working on Chimp software

[azure crescent]

also what water rats

[tired urchin]

can i have the site or place you got the t rex bit force vs deinos,

[mental roost]

Amazon giant river otters, giant rats

[tired urchin]

i feel like deino was quite a bit stronger in bite force

but idk

[mental roost]

Nasty river Skaven

[tired urchin]

hmm i feel like the rex is a lil small tho

or what ever it is

[mental roost]

That’s a somewhat shrink wrapped Albertosaurus

[somber sphinx]

Think that’s Alberto since they coexisted

[tired urchin]

yea

i thought it might

be

[somber sphinx]

Yeah pretty bad Alberto lol

[mental roost]

Who’s ever heard of a thin Santa?!?

[somber sphinx]

Lol

[mental roost]

That Alberto needs some meat

[somber sphinx]

Needs some floof too

[tired urchin]

lookin smug

[tired urchin]

you still here?

[mental roost]

https://i.natgeofe.com/n/fb7dd351-bf44-449d-89d4-0f7717086009/1456023.jpg?w=636&h=454

They got him

[tired urchin]

looking kinda evil tho

[hollow canyon]

I don't know about a site, you would need to see the things bitten by both animals. Those bitten by Deinosuchus had their bones cracked and torn. Purussaurus made the bones implode. We have a femur of a ground sloth that was unfortunate enough to get bitten by a(very young and not even particularly big) Puru and part of the bones got turned to dust.

T.rex is estimated at similar biteforces to Purussaurus

Deinosuchus just didn't need to bite that hard, you can kill things very easily with a much lower biteforce if you just clamp your jaws and drag them into the water where they drown.

Purussaurus and T.rex had reasons to get higher biteforces due to the prey they were hunting.

[tired urchin]

i was comparing deino and rex. not purussaurus

[hollow canyon]

yea again - you'd need to take a look at what happened to things bitten by Tyrannosaurus. I don't think there's every been a scientific study that compared T.rex's biteforce to those of extinct crocodilians

a few reasons for why T.rex's bite would be more damaging is that it's a heterodont

the teeth it has in the front of its jaws are of differing lengths

meaning that when it jams them into its prey they don't all make contact at the same time

[tired urchin]

maybe you right

im not sure

[hollow canyon]

which causes more of the pressure to be applied in the specific points of contact

I was generally told that T.rex and Puru are the two terrestrial animals with the highest biteforces

by someone who knows a lot about crocodilians

[tired urchin]

yea, maybe deino had more power but spread across a larger area

[hollow canyon]

T.rex and Puru are somewhere in the 70kN range while Deino is between 30-60kN

there are different estimates for all these animals

but realistically those exceeding 70kN are very doubtful I guess?

[tired urchin]

ye im not sure, but i know that in certain environments they would each rip each other apart

[hollow canyon]

I mean it's a completely different story if you're asking which one would win

higher biteforce=/=would win in a fight

if the two were to have a go at each other irl my money would be on the croc probably

[tired urchin]

on land i say 8 out of ten times the rex wins

[hollow canyon]

I disagree generally but this is no place for that discussion as it's not really related to balance

[tired urchin]

yea ig

ok

[frail bobcat]

@hexed hound that is called punishing your mistake. you didnt charge properly and the teno countered it, so it gets a couple free hits in as a bonus

its intended

[hexed hound]

its not a couple free htis its literalmly im stuck and cant move for 10 seconds straight

[frail bobcat]

The teno gets two more hits and thats it

[hexed hound]

well I was stuck and he got like 5 hit

[frail bobcat]

Then that is unfortunate

But normally the teno only gets two hits in

[hollow canyon]

That sounds like a bug

you probably had some input lock

it happens all the time on the current update

this isn't intentional and I don't think it's in any way connected to Tenonto

I had it happen in most random of circumstances

[bright oasis]

happens from time to time yeah. had it happen to 2 other crocs i was playing with last night after they swallowed some food. i had to lunge them to fix it lol

[hollow canyon]

yea I had it on deino, carno, Utah and Pachy so far

[alpine plover]

#balance-feedback message
If you mindlessly run into the ass of a teno and the teno times it's tail slam right, it can stun you, much like a carno charge can stun a teno. I'd say it's pretty fair, just be smarter when ramming.

[regal goblet]

I was going to reply to this but yeah, just like everything else carno charges they get stunned. Well if you charge a teno and they tail slam you at the right spot they stun you. ( Now I'll admit I've never heard of them getting an extra 5 hits I've only ever gotten an extra 2 in all my time on Evrima. So I don't know what to make of that )

[hexed hound]

well iwas stunned but was not down so i coudlnt move literally

[hollow canyon]

@muted citrus I think that should go in #general-feedback tbh. I also kind of disagree, I always found Evrima's sounds to be off.

[golden coral]

@hardy dirgeIf you want the omni to stay on longer again, you need to gut the bleed and damage massively in order to force a lot more pounces, which might work instead. But the current bucking is fine (aside from the chunk drain which is an issue), it's just a matter of getting used to it and adjusting to wearing down the targets stamina more than just relying on pounces.

[hardy dirge]

Eh I'd rather be able to enjoy the pounce animation and free ride for longer, even if that means nerfing the damage (Which isn't much to begin with) and bleed (Which is definitely very high)

It's just not satisfying to pounce and see the animation for 2 seconds and then have no stamina because it got depleted in chunks and now you can't even run away.

[golden coral]

Fair, I'm not inherently opposed to that, even if I personally prefer the more fast paced version we have now. It's mostly that I want there to be more back and forth, more need for the omnis to pounce again, so there's more actual play and engagement with them.

But part of the current issue is the chunk drain, which is why it seems so fast and "sudden". If it drained more like sprint drain, it'd probably look and feel better.

So less of a "tick" drain and more constant, that way it also gives you more time to react and respond.

[frail bobcat]

did you suggest this yet?

[hardy dirge]

Pouncing should definitely be their primary attack, but they don't need to be magnetic. I'd rather they struggle to land and get better advantages out of it then always land but have literally 2 seconds to do anything.

[golden coral]

Pretty sure it's been noted yes.

[hardy dirge]

I'm all for the game being more engaging and forcing the Omni to hunt in packs, but it just feels like it's not going the way it should.

[frail bobcat]

noted? like the noted that punchpacket does on suggestions?

[golden coral]

It should, that's not in question It's more so that they should have to wear out the targets stamina more before being able to reliably pounce for the kill, more or less. And you can currently tap pounce effectively still, so it's not as if you can't pounce or be lethal, it's just a bit different. But it is a bit subjective on the preference for longer vs shorter pounces, so it's fine to disagree there. I happen to like the idea that if I can buck, you get off or fall off, rather than buck and still watch you sit and do bleed.

[hardy dirge]

I love how nobody went to react to them individually but they just put x's. Guess that's why I shouldn't have put it like a word wall.

[golden coral]

No, more so that I'm pretty sure that at least some QA are aware of the "issue" and have considered it, so it'll most likely be brought up.

[dawn falcon]

Everyone’s free to disagree. Don’t assume they’re always going to explain why they x’d it. Lol

[frail bobcat]

I hope that they do it in the combat patch that dondi wants between u6 and 6.5

[hardy dirge]

I mean I'll take this over the broken bucking any day. I personally think the pouncing time and stamina drain was fine as it was, but the bleed it initially does is a bit much.

[dawn falcon]

I’m hoping a lot of the balance issues are solved with Dondis ST