general-feedback-discussion

[sage yew]

you can't take the current gameplay for granted

[rare fractal]

What needs to be added to the game for carno to not be a pursuit predator...what roster addition entirely eradicates it's current niche

[cyan flame]

From the fact that it's meant to hunt small prey, most of which are fast, agile, and skittish. And you live in an open plains biome, where it's hard to hide in the first place, especially when you're big and loud. As such, looking at the playable, looking at the charge and how it functioned, you can see it was no good for its intended purpose. You were rarely, if ever, going to land your charge on a dryo, or omni, or pachy, or even teno, that was aware of you coming. But you also had a start up and a running start up, making lots of noises and making you give up the hidden spot you had, before you can even attack, thus making you very obvious when you were coming at something.

[tall hearth]

How can a carno ambush out in the plains, where it's supposed to live? It's not maneuverable enough to ambush in tight spaces like the forests either. Where do cheetahs live? how do cheetahs hunt? Why is carno naturally fast, like a cheetah? Why does it have higher stam consumption than the rest of the abimals, like a cheetah?

[sage yew]

heat management
even a cheetah is an ambush predator, only able to srpint for a really short amount of time, till it overheats and needs to rest

[cyan flame]

I'm not, I'm going by what's been said about carno and what it's meant to hunt and target.

[sage yew]

how much weighs a carno? 3 tons? that's a ship load of heat to dissipate

[cyan flame]

Which kind of how stamina works. Carno can't run forever, it has quite limited stamina. Though you could up the stamina drain on charge possibly, plus the other modifications to make it more in line with it being good for staying on target but limited in time you can do so.

[rare fractal]

Cheetahs are pursuit predators...whether or not they're able to do so for short or extended periods of time doesn't change this...it utilizes ambush tactics..then again literally all predators do so to some degree...also heat management is literally how stam works

[tall hearth]

Cheetah is a short burst pursuit predator. It can ambush to surprise prey, but that's not its hunting style. It chases prey a short distance. Sir, I suggest doing cheerah research

[proud coral]

@visual urchin I can't react to it because the bot is being dumb, but that idea is brilliant!

[rare fractal]

Yeah carno has actually done considerable damage to peoples ability to define an ambush predator...spiders...most snakes...gators...and praying mantis are good examples of ambush predators...whereas something like cheetah would not

[tall hearth]

For someone who wants dinos to behave like their real animal inspirations, you kinda dont know how some of these animals actually hunt tbh

[sage yew]

pls consider while typing, that I already have 6 responses who want answers and I can't keep up with that, so I don't even bother

7

[tall hearth]

We're here all day, take your time if you need. But understand carno is a short burst pursuit predator, not an ambusher.

[cyan flame]

@sage yewThere isn't that much to answer. I just pointed out that stamina drain kind of fulfills the purpose of "heat management", if you are looking for a "you can't run forever" kind of deal.

[sage yew]

all I see is that you don't want carno to be an ambush predator

[rare fractal]

One of the glories of text...you can take as much time as you need

[sage yew]

no it's not

[rare fractal]

Well....no I don't...cuz it isn't one...that'd be like designing deino for attrition hunting

[cyan flame]

No, not so much that we don't want it to, but that it's been badly designed for being one, and that it makes little sense on top of that.

[tall hearth]

I dont care what the devs do with carno. Just understand that their version of carno is a cheetah like playstyle.

[cyan flame]

Though I personally think pursuit cheetah style carno is far cooler and more terrifying for the targets than "bullet train" sidestep charge carno where you kind of have to try to let yourself be hit by it :p

[tall hearth]

You're expecting our views to change, but not your own?

[lucid robin]

carno CAN do ambushes tho. like if it positions itself in a bush, lets prey get close enough, then charges and stuns it, that could work pretty well for hunts. its just that nobody ever does that because reasons i guess?

[sage yew]

I'm not gonna go for a whole exposition, in which way heat management and stamina would or could differ, simply accept it? duno

[cyan flame]

You can up stamina drain to make it so something can't run for very long. It can work similarly to adding heat so you get overheated. Sure, they're not the same, and I didn't claim that, I said it kind of fulfills the purpose of limiting run time for something.

[sage yew]

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be feasable, to make carno into an ambush predator

[tall hearth]

Every animal can do that. Stego, dryo, even ptera. That doesnt make them ambush predators though.

[rare fractal]

Yes...every predator engages in ambush if it intends to not be seen by it's target at any point in a hunt...that doesn't make it an ambush predator

[cyan flame]

No one is saying it can't. More so that it wasn't well designed for it.

[rare fractal]

Defining what a predators primary viable tactics are is what these terms are used for

[lucid robin]

stego is too slow for that, dryo is too weak for that, and ptera realistically wouldn't. but i see your point, lots of dinos CAN do it.

[sage yew]

that's obvious, but you guys talk like it's written in stone

[rare fractal]

There are no specifications that you either need to be fast or powerful to attempt an ambush tbf

[cyan flame]

Oh I'm sure it is, but then you'd have to rework the charge to work at point blank, maybe make it into a powerful headbutt instead, so you just take a step forward, headbutt something into the ground, and then bite it to death or something.

[cyan flame]

You'd be surprised on stego. I've seen people ambush others with adult trikes in legacy xD

[lucid robin]

can u actually finish your sentences and stop spamming periods man? like- what's the point of doing this....constantly...and not even putting spaces between the 3-dots and the next sentence...

[sage yew]

I think that many aspects of the game are still just placeholerds, as I can't imagine that anything is currently working as intended

[cyan flame]

Yes and no, new animations are one of those where it's kind of limited. It can be done, and most likely will in some cases, but it's not very likely. And I do think at least the base of things are working as intended. Carno got a charge, and I think they mean to keep it. Omni has pounce, and I think they mean to keep it, and so on. Much as I wish they would rework stego jabs into proper swings, that might not happen.

[tall hearth]

Of course not everything is working as intended. But the fact the devs have made carno more and more of a short burst small game hunting pursuit predator with each update is getting more and more obvious.

[rare fractal]

It's indicative of grammatically incorrect pauses, I typically type similar to how I talk, I don't see the need to change that

[tall hearth]

Grammar shouldnt matter tbh. If you can still pick up on the general idea or statement someone is saying, it doesnt matter how they spell or use punctuation.

[sage yew]

but basing any assumptions on the current game, are just arbitrary and like everyone else, should take this into account

in the next iteration could be carno completely different

[cyan flame]

@sage yewI treat playables and niches based on what they're claimed to be doing. If carno is designated to hunt smaller game than itself, and those targets are often skittish, agile and fast critters, it makes sense that carno would be good at the things they are, in order to keep up with them to catch them and kill them.

[tall hearth]

If the devs make its playstyle more geared towards outright ambush, I will not care and will discuss how it's an ambush predator then. But as it stands, it isnt.

[cyan flame]

So while you do have a point, I think you might not quite see where I'm coming from here. I don't think things will change massively, even if omni has gone from raw damage to bleed, and that was a rather big change. But it was still omni pounce, not something entirely different. Carno is still charging, it's just gone from "bullet train" to "follow target closely", if you see what I mean?

[lucid robin]

fair enough. i always write how i talk (as in actual writing stories, not texting), so i get that

[sage yew]

inertia isn't even fully implemented, no reason to discuss "facts" that aren't even real, just assumption based on current situation

[tall hearth]

I think discussing it with him is over tbh

[rare fractal]

Oh as someone who writes scripts for a living believe me when I say that this isn't how I'd go about those xD
Discord is just more casual...plus it feels more like actual talking

[rare fractal]

It isn't? Since when is inertia partially implemented

It hasn't even been changed since 3.75 aside from diminishing it's prevalence...because it's fairly universally despised as opposed to how natural movement used to be

[lucid robin]

true..

[sage yew]

just by that, could carnos behaviour and needed playstyle totally change

[tall hearth]

It could, and if it does it will be very obvious

[rare fractal]

It could it's just demonstrably unlikely as that would be contradictory to all of carno's basal strengths

[sage yew]

currently it is more important to make it "fun" during the development phase, where at least half of the mechanics are missing

[rare fractal]

You'd have to make carno slow for it to be an ambush predator...I'll just put it that way

[lapis swallow]

It would be the same as making omni a damage based hunter

[rare fractal]

Or deino a pursuit predator

[lapis swallow]

Have I ever told you the story about sub deino?

[rare fractal]

God don't remind me of current growth curves

[sage yew]

not necessarily, there are other ways around this
and please don't ask me what specifically. Simply said: there is more then this one way you can imagine

[rare fractal]

64kmh 1.3ton sub carno with 110 dmg on bite

[lapis swallow]

The speed of certain subs is the only issue I have with it

Like, why tf does stego get a 35 kmh sub?

[rare fractal]

You'd have to necessitate prey coming to the carno first before it even stands a chance at killing it, you'd also need to make pursuit impossible if the initial hit is missed...
or make carno lay traps like a spider but we all know that's not happening

[sage yew]

if cheetahs taken as an example, they can only sprint for a ridiculous amount of time and need to be really close to their prey, before they can initiate it and need a long cooldown phase (literally) before they can engage again

[rare fractal]

I honestly don't mind that

[rare fractal]

Cheetahs are pursuit predators tho

[lapis swallow]

But the insane stam on top

[rare fractal]

By definition

[rare fractal]

That's the only thing I take issue with on subs across the board...well...and juvis too

[sage yew]

I don't care as it does not change anything of what I've said

[lapis swallow]

Just give em a good stam regen

[rare fractal]

It does...cheetahs being pursuit predators makes the intended point irrelevant to the conversation

[sage yew]

what example would you prefere? As dinos are for the last 60my extinct

[rare fractal]

Well the point you're trying to prove is that there are more ways to design an ambush predator than simply making carno slow...and your example in support of this isn't an ambush predator at all...

[sage yew]

The point is, current carno is prpably more than just experimental and will be probably used for other dino iterations as a template

[rare fractal]

Why is that likely

[lapis swallow]

But which playable would fit this playstyle more than carno?

[rare fractal]

Carno is the only predator that really..fits this playstyle

[sage yew]

my point is, that speed is not the only factor that needs to be taken into account, to claim that I said something, because you simply ignore the massage

[rare fractal]

Which wasn't proven by the example, that's why I'm confused, it muddied the message...I'm not sure of what other messages I've been ignoring, if so please let me know

[sage yew]

because it's not all about speed. Maybe it will change, I don't know? maybe not. But you can make an ambush predator out of him, or a T-Rex 0.5 for testing, or anything else, till models, animations and other things of different dinos are complete and ready for deploy

a carno is simply a perfect testing ground for anything devs can currently imagine. Maybe I'm wrong and they persiue something else, I don't know!

but you can't say, carnos is that and this, because now it is like that and that, that's simply stupid

DUCK, I don't know how to write persiu... perse...grrr

[rare fractal]

Well...I can because we know it's intended niche via the devs...objectively...
That isn't a nebulous detail, we know that info.
It's a plains based small game hunter, every element of it's environment and ideal prey list is actively fighting against an ambusher playstyle, so why would we assume it'll become one or even think it a reasonable future possibility that it would?

It's representation in game since it's addition is only further support of this

It's never been an ambush predator

Like…i wouldn’t assume or even think it a reasonable possibility that Pachy will be buffed up to 5 tons and solo allo packs in the future simply because it’s prone to changing, that’s an extensive reach that goes against everything we understand about pachies intended implementation

[sage yew]

raptors are meant to hunt in the jungle, but currently only open plains are usable for them. That means Raptors are now also open plain hunters? Or just that mechanics are not in place yet?

[rare fractal]

But they can hunt in jungles, that’s where they’re most effective against carnos rn

And Pachys ironically

[sage yew]

where they get smacked against every tree? Or they get munched through trees and bushes? No, raptors worst enemy is the jungle

absolutely not playable there and it does not mean anything, in greater scheme of things

simply just chill and wait till more of the game mechanics are visible

[tall hearth]

Just means the forests should get a bit of a rework, and the forests on gateway seem to be a lot better.

[sage yew]

what I said

[tall hearth]

Better forests and more playables equals more forest hunting omnis.

[sage yew]

not only that, but pouncing needs a completely different approach if it's supposed to work in any way in the forest, if it stays his weapon of favour

[chilly matrix]

Depends actually, if you only think of the „hunting bigger things“ aspect you may be right but logically speaking once smaller playables and some other mechanics which revolve around climbing are added the whole „Raptor ain’t viable in Jungle“ thing may end.

Also only relying on your Pounce is not the way to go and you will most likely get swatted like a fly.

[sage yew]

totally, yes

and in the same way could carno change, even with his current settings, once heat management and inertia play a role

maybe not exact the same settings tho...

[chilly matrix]

Ahhh let’s not get our hopes too high 😅

Adding all that stuff will take a WHILE

[tall hearth]

Heat management has never been confirmed, what are you suggesting here

[chilly matrix]

He basically said „Source ?“

[sage yew]

yea, the only thing devs can currently do, is making the EA fun and enjoyable, nothing will probably persist as it is now, because it only gets balanced for 9 playables

[sage yew]

true

[rare fractal]

Jungles provide them the most line of sight breaks for charges and rams, tap pouncing makes the threat of trees irrelevant….only an unskilled Omni fears the forests when facing anything besides a stego or teno

[sage yew]

if you say so

[chilly matrix]

Actually I believe in trial and error, I was once part of a community were they would make drastic changes to the server and look at the opinions and statistics of the people.
If it was bad they would change or just remove it (removing being the last option).

Maybe the Devs should just start adding Playables, since we to be honest got more mechanics than Legacy and Legacy was actually quite popular.

[cyan flame]

I don't quite understand why you think things might change so drastically with any playable really. There's no precedent for that, at least not for once it is in the game here. Maybe if it was from legacy to evrima, I could see it. But why do you think carno might act as a template? Or that any other playable would?

[sage yew]

Devs should alter settings more often, to find a better sweetspot

[cyan flame]

There's little to no reason to think carno would get entirely redesigned, even stego might not get it, and stego is more "AI" designed at that.

So not sure why you're having this idea that things could change drastically. There's.. very little, if any, precedent for it from what I can see.

[chilly matrix]

Who are you talking to ? 😂😅

[cyan flame]

I don't think we need more playables, when we still don't have a proper gameplay loop. We need a proper "game" first as it were. (and the other was to Damus who earlier argue that carno could change massively, which I find highly unlikely).

Would more playables be nice, absolutely, but they themselves won't "fix" the game.

[sage yew]

because the game in a whole is a totally broken mess

[rare fractal]

And that’s means that Carno is likely going to undergo a niche change?

[sage yew]

no

[cyan flame]

I'm not sure I agree that the game is a totally broken mess. Are there issues, absolutely. But I don't see it being that bad honestly.

At least we're less broken than legacy I guess.

[sage yew]

90% of the game is lacking

not considering playables

[chilly matrix]

I actually disagree, looking back at legacy (and yes I’m going to use Legacy often as a comparison) there wasn’t really any gameplay loop, at the very least not more than now.

What most players want is to actually play Dinosaurs in a Dinosaur game, not to be stuck with a little Chicken, a Croc and basically a bird that amounts to nothing (nah no hate I love ptera).

What I’m trying to say, why play Dino game if there no cool Dino to play. U get me ?

[rare fractal]

The lack of a gameplay loop is one of the core reasons legacy was so empty and vapid….Evrima largely exists to generate one ironically

That’s why the mechanics are being prioritized

[sage yew]

at least for now he's right tho
balancing just 7 playables, (+experimentals)+1 aquatic +1flyable, is already a nightmare to make it feasable during EA, as current gameplay shows

[rare fractal]

The roster is indeed terrible

Like whoever thought this composition of animals would work well together foundationally….I have no idea

[chilly matrix]

And that’s not bad !
Really, but priorities should be at the dinosaurs currently at the very least that’s my opinion.
I heard humans are going to be released even though they shouldn’t be a priority

The Isle feels like something I’m currently drawing jumping from one drawing to the other without finishing the first one properly

[rare fractal]

The dinosaurs can’t be fully designed or implemented without a gameplay loop, the only reason we’ve gotten most of the playables we have so far is because of tech Demos for mechanics

It’s also in beta…

[cyan flame]

Lacking in what ways? We are lacking a gameplay loop and some of the things, like elders, and perks and so on. And bug fixes and performance, but those are worked on constantly. Not sure I'd call lacking features "broken" though, it's not quite the same to me at least. But overall, I'd say we're still closer to a good game now than in legacy, or if not a better game, since legacy was fun in its own way, a more complete and full game.

[rare fractal]

It’s not a live service game is actively being created

[chilly matrix]

And since how long is it in the beta ?

[sage yew]

That's why I see everything in the current game as highly experimental

few herbis, some bipedal, some quadpedal and big carno, one small omni. Basically all thrown together to gain some data how it is supposed to play out at the end

[rare fractal]

7-8 years…why do you ask?

[chilly matrix]

Well I guess you can think for yourself why it’s crucial to ask these questions

I mean you basically answered them yourself

7-8 Years is a lot of time

[cyan flame]

You're right, there was no gameplay loop in legacy, and there's not one in evrima either, yet. Which was what I was trying to say we need. We need the "full" game before we need more playables. And well, yes I get that, I would like more playables too, but I would like a full gameplay loop before that, because I have hours and hours of legacy with no gameplay loop on my record. And well, keep in mind, it's not really a dinosaur game, we're getting humans and some kind of "orc like" beings and so on as well.

[sage yew]

To be fair, no other survival game was any quicker, beside these that took cheap shortcuts, like utilising base building mechanics to shoosh up the masses

[rare fractal]

I’ve been following the game for that entire span of time….I’m only invested in the games quality improving over time…I don’t want to forego core mechanics to satiate the current playerbase as that’s not the purpose of the game right now…

[cyan flame]

They can, we don't need a gameplay loop for that. But without a gameplay loop, we just have growth deathmatch to play.

[sage yew]

The problem is, for open world survival, anything needs to be developed by scrath

[rare fractal]

That’s true but I’m moreso appealing to none of the Dino’s being complete without those mechanics

You can still release them partially finished

[sage yew]

that would make it even more difficult to provide a good EA experience

[chilly matrix]

But how do you imagine a gameplay loop in „The Isle“ were you basically grow become an adult and yeah that’s that.
If you mean with gameplay loop becoming an elder, dying statt reset etc. than that should be a mechanic which shouldn’t take that long

[cyan flame]

So noted. Also I think people generally separate between time for legacy and time for evrima, for development time at least.

[cyan flame]

Yes, I am referring to elders and all that. And while elders per say might not be that difficult (though they do need models, stats with their own balancing and all that), we need perks as well to come with them to give dying of old age a purpose.

[sage yew]

only possible with a complete gameplay overhaul
the who hunting and gaining resources aspect needs to change

[chilly matrix]

Than what’s the purpose of the game ? I don’t understand your point

[rare fractal]

Currently it’s to be fully developed

[cyan flame]

Which in turn requires balancing as well, and well, implementation of those perks. And for now we have dietary paths that do need some work too.

[chilly matrix]

If that’s the case than we would need a big part of the roster many mechanics and basically a half or almost finished game

[sage yew]

possibly, yes

[chilly matrix]

But isn’t the purpose of a game to be I don’t know fulfilling, fun and or at least for some a grind ?

Currently even though i myself rarely play the game I can’t stop drooling over the thought of having a gameplay experience like I had back than when I played legacy.

That the game needs to be developed is clear and understandable but at the same time it should be rewarding and fun whilst it gets developed

[sage yew]

if devs do it right, it will be probably a big reveal at the end, or a disappointment (like with other titles that attempted it)

[chilly matrix]

Any other way it wouldn’t make sense to buy the game currently or at the very least that’s how I see it

[sage yew]

"That the game needs to be developed is clear and understandable but at the same time it should be rewarding and fun whilst it gets developed"

that's really resource intensive just to keep this going

for now, it's more of a playground

[icy lion]

Personally, the game will be more fun and rewarding to me if I had more things to do and accomplish than by having more species to play

[chilly matrix]

They seem to do a good job to be honest if had to describe the devs I‘d say they are the lazy/slow smart guy, that hands his essay really late but when he delivers it’s usually something big.

[sage yew]

I still have some hopes tho

the ideas I see in the game seem promising

[chilly matrix]

Yes, absolutely ! But sadly I can’t tell what the devs have planned or if everything is going well behind the scene’s, be it the reactions from the community or the feedback they receive

I just hope that in the near future before I lose contact to the „gaming world“ that I will be able to play The Isle in a fulfilling way

[sage yew]

as I worked in the field of arts, my work was unrecognisable during development processes and only at the last mile it all became clear

my boss yelled at me what a mess and at a tipping point it all changes to Aaaah, and ooooh

[chilly matrix]

That sounds oddly satisfying ngl 😂

[jovial otter]

Mind dming me the code for that skin? I've been dying for a good night camo

[chilly matrix]

Sadly some people’s „boss‘s“ are quite strict and impatient hence why people seem to overly criticize the game

[sage yew]

nope sorry, not gonna make it a new "meta" ;)

[jovial otter]

I don't play meta stuff I just haul ass and hide lol

[chilly matrix]

Gangster 😂

[sage yew]

I've experienced it first hand, was pretty hard sometimes

[jovial otter]

I'm a solo raptor player that likes to ambush xD usually I fail so I turn tail and hide

[chilly matrix]

If you wanna find it… Grind It !

The legendary old saying

[sage yew]

also, my boss demeaned constantly changes that ware simply trivial, but only made sense to do them at the end, so I was constantly fighting with him about what is more important to do right now... I think it's the same what devs experience

only that the community becomes the boss

[chilly matrix]

Nah the community cries and wails but

in the end It doesn't even matter how hard they try
Keep that in mind, they designed this rhyme
To explain in due time
All I know
Time is a valuable thing
Watch it fly by as the update swings
Watch it count down to the end of the day
The clock ticks life away
The-Isle-Phase 3

[sage yew]

nice thing!

[burnt bone]

@jaunty basin
2 things issues with the feedback
1: pachy’s damage isn’t the issue, it’s the stuns. Once they get the leg break, it’s hard for a carno to outplay them since pachies can just keep ramming and canceling the carno’s attacks.
2: you can’t balance a dino purely on the fact that they are in a group. If you balance carno to be able to handle a group of 3, how is a solo pachy supposed to survive?

Other than that, the matchup does need some looking at, just mostly at the stuns rather than the damage, pachy already hits for very low damage.

[jaunty basin]

Not sure if I agree with this just yet. If pachy would need even more rams for a kill it at least has to think if it isnt just smarter to outrun because it wont have the stam to keep ramming aswell as dodging the carno tho. I think the stuns are part of its kit. Just force players to use them in a more defensive way to actually survive. I think this would also make there be less KOS pachys.
But yea its just my opinion, not looking to start a war here 🙂

[sage yew]

maybe could pachy receive dmg, or with a % chance hurt itself while ramming? It does not seem to be the healthiest thing to do, at least not without a risk, no matter how strong the bone is

[burnt bone]

Yeah but pachy already lacks the stam to full kill a carno. And if you nerf it to the point that multiple pachies have trouble with 1 carno, then the Omni matchup gets thrown out.

[chilly matrix]

Just buff Carno

[burnt bone]

I don’t think punishing pachy for landing it’s only survival strategy is the best idea

[sage yew]

but punishing for unnecessary conflicts

[burnt bone]

Again, it’s an issue with stuns canceling attacks, it’s just exacerbated by pachy’s playstyle.

[sage yew]

it's like a cold war between carno and pachy

[burnt bone]

Except you also punish necessary conflict

[sage yew]

then you just go for the risk
carno needs also such stuff, like sprintingt into a tree

[jaunty basin]

I never had problems with my stam when facing a carno to be honest.. to me it just felt unfair.
But the big question is, should a pachy even be able to kill a carno or not. Imo it should be able to defend and make a run from it after a leg break. But killing it 1v1.. idk

[sage yew]

I think a pachy should reside after inflicting massive dmg like bone brakes, instead of keeping punching - even tho it's really fun

[sage yew]

also, only to a certain degree, I don't intend to make his ability basically useless

[burnt bone]

Plus, the % chance doesn’t only apply to to the carno matchup, but also the Omni. So pachy landing it’s main attack (which it has to do multiple times) could just kill it randomly.

I’d rather then look at the stuns, since this issue won’t just apply to pachy. Something like scaling stun immunity would be the best. So pachy is able to fracture and run like it currently can, but pressing the fight further could cause the target to become immune to stuns and near unfightable.

[jaunty basin]

And I mean the Omni matchup right now is a hard joke. Even sub pachys can kill omnis fairly easy. So a little bit less dmg would provide them almost one shotting an omni tho..🥲

[sage yew]

It could be solved by precision, if you hit at a certain angle, there would be a good reason to have a chance to get some dmg of it

[burnt bone]

Again, I’m not saying that this matchup is good, it’s in a bad spot. Pachy def shouldn’t be winning the 1v1 to the death, fracture and run should be the plan. But the issue is with the constant stuns denying the target from fighting back fairly. Especially after leg fracture.

[sage yew]

maybe blunt dmg should not be deadly? Or only deadly with % certainty. So you need to land some more hits to also finish him of

so escape becomes more atractive after already landing some hits

[burnt bone]

Though pachy has been said to be a hard counter to Omni, it isn’t the worst possible fight. You just can’t fight it 1v1, and you can easily avoid it. Plus, the most damage pachy can do is 2 charged headshots, which deals 375, then the Omni can just run away afterwards since it only has a head fracture. The main issue is a leg fracture, but it’s also the hardest one to get and requires a specific angle.

[burnt bone]

Again, you’re just delaying the inevitable. The issue is the lack of counterplay due to stuns, not that pachy deals damage. Plus, again, that heavily impacts the Omni matchup.

[sage yew]

to be honest, I ignored some aspects of it, but you are right

but stunt duration seems to be somewhat reasonable, don't know how to solve this

maybe you should just run if pachy comes at you, like anyone would run from a Hippo, just to avoid to get hurt

because omnis shouldn't be alone

hm, but on the other hand, neither should pachys...

[burnt bone]

My idea would be to have scaling stun immunity. So the first few stuns go as normal and a break and run stays the same, but the immunity timer increases more and more as time goes on. Until the target basically becomes immune to stuns until it’s able to heal the fractures.

Though others have suggested to just make it pachy stun on fractures only for things more than 2x it’s size. I personally don’t think that would work well though since it punishes pachy too much.

[burnt bone]

Pachies, like every dino shouldn’t be forced to group to be viable. Omnis may not be able to fight certain things alone, but they can avoid those it can’t and hunt small prey. Pachy doesn’t have the leisure of deciding most it’s fights, so it has to be able to fight back. However, pachy generally fights to fracture and run.

[sage yew]

your idea could work, but seems to be far away what people would expect

hm, instead of immunity, what about pachys gain higher chances to hurt themselves, if they use ram in rapid succession? Back to the idea of hurting themselfe by % chance, but it increases if they overdo it

[sage yew]

nah, herding animals should have the need, like don't balance the game to make it fair for every 1:1 fight

[burnt bone]

That still doesn’t stop a group of pachies from just mauling things it generally shouldn’t. And if it does, then it’s WAY overkill.

[sage yew]

herding pachys seem to be dangerous tho, I would rather run
but here I ignore the fact that there are no penalties for over aggressive playstiles yet

[burnt bone]

I’m too lazy to type my whole argument in why that’s a horrible idea, read this: #balance-feedback message

[sage yew]

lets just say I really like the dynamics that evolve from it
currently it might be not so far away what would be reasonable, as the game is basically a battle royal with extra steps

but there is nothing wrong about just running away if you encounter a danger like a pachy herd

[cyan flame]

No. And no, it's not balanced for 1v1 "fair fight", it's balanced for 1v1 survival and viability. There's a difference there. And no animal should be "herding" or "packing" in the sense of needing that to be viable. Omnis can be limited in ability to hunt things based on numbers, but not limited in viability and survivability.

[sage yew]

not to mention that solo pachys are dangerous

[cyan flame]

However, this is not what the issue with pachy is. It is the CC ability. Not the damage, or anything else really. We know this because damage has been nerfed at times and it did not change how the pachy can still "stunlock" and kill carno or teno. It only makes the pachy require a few more hits, which it will take its time to do, if it wants you dead.

[burnt bone]

My point included running away from a fight to be a fair strategy for winning said fight.

[sage yew]

depends on what you mean with viability, because there is no change in stats or whatsoever

[cyan flame]

Viability as in a way to survive the encounter.

[sage yew]

you sometimes gotta run tho

[cyan flame]

Which is why balancing for groups defensively is terrible, but offensively can work.

[cyan flame]

Yes, that's fine, if you have the ability to run that is.

[burnt bone]

The main issue is that you brought it up with the carno v pachy matchup, one that pachy can not simply run away from. Pachy has to be able to fight, get the fractures, and then is able to run. If any step in that is messed up, then there is a huge issue.

[sage yew]

but one thing to ad here, being balanced for 1v1 has nothing to do with survival. PvP or PvE is a basic mechanic from nearly every other game genre too

[cyan flame]

Except being balanced for 1v1 in the sense of surviving the encounter has everything to do with survival.

Anyway, this is more of a tangent. The issue with pachy is that a solo pachy can kill stuff it really shouldnt, due to how stuns work.

[sage yew]

no. As the Isle is an asymmetric game from ground up

[burnt bone]

Pvp is a core component of survival. If you have no options to avoid a predator player, then you just die, and your survival is ruined by the existence of that predator.

[cyan flame]

That does not change my point at all.

[sage yew]

That's "surviving" yes, but has nothing to do with survival as a genre

[cyan flame]

Which would be the point of a survival game, and the point of the genre. But I am aware that the genre is a bit... confused about what actual survival is. :p

[sage yew]

it does and balancing everything for 1v1 is no feasible

[sage yew]

surviving encounters is not survival, otherwise would be Tombraider survival, even tetris would be survival

[cyan flame]

... You do realize that you must be able to survive, otherwise you can't actually play to survive, right? Your point is irrelevant to the fact that you have to balance things to be capable of surviving, be it by running, fighting, or even hiding if that is doable (and done well).

@topaz cedarI don't think anything has changed with stego, not sure what you're on about.

[sage yew]

we are talking about the same, but we use different words for it
the point is, PvP is just a basic mechanic, while surviving means fighting the odds, which also means encountering unfair situations

putting everything into the same tier, would just result in a battle royal and would be only feasible there

Omnis shouldn't be able to take any fight and also pachys shouldn't be able to

[burnt bone]

We aren’t saying everything must be able to fight everything. More that everything must have a way to survive everything. Whether the tactic is running, fighting, or hiding.

[cyan flame]

I don't think making everything viable to survive an encounter "1v1" is the same as putting things in the same tier. I'm more so saying that nothing should just be "guess I die now" just because it's found by something, if we're talking fully grown playables at the very least (since it does make sense that juvies struggle more, but even then, juvie gameplay should still be viable and not just "never get seen or die".

[cyan flame]

And this is why we're arguing that pachy needs to be looked at because right now it can solo a carno... :p

Which it shouldn't. It should however be able to break and run, but not break and then kill.

Right now pachy gets the legbreak, can probably add a body break, and then it just slowly kills the carno or teno. And the issue there isn't damage, or fracture, it's the stun on impact that prevents the other playable from retaliating.

[sage yew]

ship happens, you can die anytime, nothing wrong with that
surviving such things gives a good old dopamine kick

survival is not meant to be always fair

[sage yew]

eh yes, and me too?

As I also suggested how this could be approached

[cyan flame]

Yes, things happen and you can die at any time, but it should be down to you making mistakes, not down to you not being able to do anything to prevent your death.

You're treating "survival should not be fair" as "you can die to things that you cant prevent" while I treat it as "you cant fight and kill everything, or run away from every fight, but you can handle the situation in one way or the other if you play correctly".

[sage yew]

that's where our opinions differ, can you pleas just accept it?
It's okay to have different opinions

I really don't know where the problem with this is

[cyan flame]

Oh I'm accepting that you have a different opinion. That does not mean I will not point out how terrible it would be for the playable if things went like that.

[burnt bone]

Games are generally meant to be fair to allow a way to actually survive the odds. Especially a multiplayer game like this.

Look at dryo for a perfect example. Have you ever seen a herd of them this update? Or even 1-2 of them? Likely not or maybe 1. That’s because they are unbalanced against them and can’t really survive because their only option is to run, but they can’t even do that. So nobody plays them because it’s more fun to play the big bad carno. That’s what happens when a Dino has unfair fights, nobody plays it.

[cyan flame]

Difference in opinion does not mean both of the opinions will work out the same way if implemented. You can prefer one thing, and I can prefer the other, but that does not relate to how those will work out in the game and if they would be good it.

[sage yew]

you say yes, I say no, what's your point with that discussion?

[cyan flame]

My point is to try and explain how doing it x or y way is going to actually work out, and why that may or may not be good for the game and the playables and so on.

Like, I agreed with your sentiment back then about downtime and that you should constantly have some kind of pressure (I was reading but couldn't get into it, hence no response from me there).

But as you saw, lots of people disagreed with you then, and while I might enjoy survival your way, I can understand that it might not work out well if people want a different experience.

[sage yew]

and you decided now what is good?
so you try to convert me?

that's not a discussion

[cyan flame]

No, I am not trying to convert you or say what is good opinion wise, but rather more so what would be workable or not. We could have playables be more like your idea of balance, but it would also mean those might not be played much because they would obviously struggle.

[sage yew]

you are just trying to prove me wrong at all cost

[cyan flame]

We have examples of how playables get treated if they are more of the "die on sight" variety, and it does not appear to appeal to people all that much.

[sage yew]

could happen, but could also not happen
as many people grouped together as omnis or other dinos, which is a interesting dynamic

you treat it like you are forced to play together, you are not, but for some species it's better to stay together, while others are less depended , nothing wrong with that

also, if everything is scalled to 1:1, it would already break apart after groups form, like they will

this game is from the core already asymmetric, I just embrace it
if you don't like it, your problem

[cyan flame]

That's also not anything I've argued against. Yes, some playables work better in group than others, trikes would do better than stegos is a good example when it comes to defensive behaviour. But making anything depend on groups to be viable is just not going to work out. Being better in groups is not the same as requiring a group to be viable and survive an encounter. You can scale groups offensively wise, but not defensively wise, because you can make a solo omni perfectly viable on it's own, even if it's offensively very limited. But you can't make something not viable alone and only viable in group just for the sake of survival, because if you're not defensively viable on your own, you won't get groups in the first place, because A, people won't like a playable that's helpless if it doesn't have friends and B, people will die before they can group up more often than not.

[cyan flame]

It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking things, and I quite like the game, but I also understand that balance and viability has to come before "pure" survival, much as I am personally in favour of hardcore survival.

[sage yew]

"you can't make something not viable alone" like things become useless, if they get stronger together. One thing does not contradict the other

it's not one way or the other, both work and both works together as well

and I guess you won't start that discussion, after T-rex comes into place, or is a omni supposed to fight it too, because a game can't be unfair

not to mention, that after spawning, basically everyone is slower and weaker then anything else

[somber elm]

@brave sonnet to get to more servers go to the button that says server filter official and change it to unnofficial then you can find other servers

[cyan flame]

What? That... what? No, a single omni is not meant to fight a rex, an entire pack is meant to struggle with one. But a single omni can easily run away from and avoid a rex, so it's viable in a "1v1". Viable does not equate to being capable of fighting something, which I've pointed out before. And yes, juvies are weaker, this is to be expected, but it is also why we need to work on juvie and sub gameplay so growth can be fun and not a matter of "do not get seen or you just die". We've had that as juvie gameplay before, in both legacy and evrima, and it is not fun at all nor does it make for good gameplay.

Maybe I'm just terrible at phrasing myself, but "you can't make something unviable alone", means exactly that. You can't make a playable dependent on having one or more group members in order to survive an encounter. Otherwise we get things like legacy para and similar, which no one wants to play because they pretty much require others to stand much of a chance unless just never seen, which is also not fun or good gameplay unless done very well. Basically, you can't say "you need to rely on a group" to survive. You can rely on it for better hunts, or better defenses, but not for survival itself.

[brave sonnet]

@somber elm i have in the past unfortunately i dont really enjoy playing on un official servers atm because they are usually rules and or they rarely have players on the ones with png good enough for me to play

[faint folio]

Yeah I admit that I haven't read the whole discussion because it's ridiculously long, but I agree with your point. To summarize:

A playable is "viable" in a survival game when, if an encounter between a player and an AI/player occurs, the player can generally do 1 of the following and have okay odds of surviving (as that is the definition of the genre. Winning is simply not dying):

1. Fight and kill the threat
2. Fight and cripple the threat to the point that it flees
3. Flee (outrun the threat, either via juking until enemy is out of stam or being faster, or simply to more favorable terrain like trees[hypsi, Herrera], water [deino, spino, beipi], burrows [dryo], etc)
4. Use special mechanics to throw off an enemy's tracking or targeting, and vanish (Chameleon/invisibility effects [day of dragon's shadow scale], stealth mechanic [d&d rogue], blind [hypsi, though it's heavily under tuned atm without trees to climb]

At least 1 of these should offer not a guarantee of survival, but a good chance of surviving solo. While with more pack members, it might increase the effectiveness of other strategies

Honestly abilities that interfere with tracking are underutilized in the isle. It would be interesting for an ambush styled dino to have an ability that allows it to more easily ambush in the game. Something like chameleon where your characters colors darken and blend closer to the colors of the surrounding foliage when crouched, representing the concept of being sneaky/stalking which is less easily accomplished with animations alone

Or if scent gets an overhaul, an ability that interferes with the ability to track by smell in a radius-- especially useful for nocturnal animals

[cyan flame]

@topaz cedarWhat do you mean? How is it not working?

[topaz cedar]

utahs still get the canni debuff. try it dont ask

[cyan flame]

Ah. I believe that's kind of the point though. If I'm not entirely wrong, at some point you could eat your own kinds organs and get nutrients, which was not intended. Though I can't be sure, some of the patch notes are not quite as clear as they should be.

[topaz cedar]

well thats from the patch notes and not really anything else can be canni soo....

[limber hull]

it's to AVOID cannibalism, i.e., dissuade it

not to avoid the cannibalism debuff

you're supposed to get the canni debuff

[sage yew]

sounds good on paper, but opportunities are never equal in the first place. Terrain differences, rivers, jungles, hills, trees stones. Ambushes, encirclement's, different growth states, different numbers of players, different speeds, masses and abilities. There is no point in making the game balanced in such a way that you always have a chance getting out of the situation. But that also does not mean you are not supposed getting out using 1. 2. .3 and 4. and maybe even 5. or 6. but there will be always a point where encounters will be simply unfair and it's basically impossible to do anything against t.

A omni has it's strength and viability, no matter if together or alone. Same applies to Pachys. But considering pachys abilities, strength and bone structures, why shouldn't it be able to dominate a single omni. Why shouldn't be a unlucky encounter basically be a "oh ship" moment. And don't tell me "it's not fun". Happens.

This game shouldn't motivate people to play their dinos as a single man army but lead them in such a way, that people are able to exhibit seemingly natural behaviour in an ecosystem and that means to also seek out for the help of other players.

For now there are no mechanics in place to motivate players to play together, or alone. For now it's all free choice without any consequences, beside being in a group or not.

It's not like 1+1 equals suddenly 3 and makes it that being alone is a actually a real disadvantage and I still don't know at this point, what the meaning of this discussion is supposed to be, as there is no fairness, equilibrium or equality to begin with and to make it through is to some degree just a gamble.

If you want fair fights, you need an actual arena and get rid of terrain and the map entirely. There you can fight equal fights in 1vs1. But beside that?`"nature" is cruel.

All I read is "I want survive": yes, that's what everyone wants! But someone unlucky enough needs to be eaten.

Possibilities should be equal to the condition and abilities of the playable, not equal to the opponent. In such a way that it's reasonable and understandable, even if it means that it will put you or your playstile in an disadvantage.

And just because, as @cyan flame pointed out, that it didn't worked in Legacy, with unattractive playables, it does not mean it should not work in Evrima. As being motivated for herding playables, to actually play in a herd and not packing carnivores to play alone, is an important aspect to transmit a good feeling of realism and immersion. To actually convey the actual scale of encounters in an realistic manner, in disregard to 1v1 fairness, or even 1v10, as it actually can happen.

[lucid mauve]

Ofcourse you can play the game solo, but if you choose galli your prob gonna be running more then hunting/defending. But if you choose lets say alberto, you prob gonna do more hunting/defending. Just as omni, you can prob survive incredible well solo but beeing more makes you able to hunt bigger dinos and less chance of people attacking you.

[sage yew]

One of the major problems is, to make hiding, defending, or fleeing as entertaining as hunting, fighting and attacking. In which I want to relate to pachys ability to kill even more powerful entities by ramming, stunning and keeping to repeat it till it's opponent is dead.

And the whole conversation was about this topic.
Suggested was shortening stun duration, reducing ram dmg, making blunt dmg only deadly to a certain % probability, hurting the patchy while ramming, or while ramming on a certain angle, making blunt dmg not dealdly, but deadly with % chance

if I have not forgotten anything.
I personally like the idea of increasing the chance, that patchy hurts itself with a % probability, increased by repeatedly using ram.

For example:
1-2 rams (in short succession) totally safe for patchy
3-4 rams % increase in recieving dmg
5-6 rams high % chance hurting itself and getting badly hurt

probable outcome:
after inflicting bone dmg, a pachy should prioritise it's own safety, instead of using his opponent as a punching bag and "abusing" his ram ability to kill anything that it hits at least once.

But fighting a herd, will propably result in certain death.

I would also suggest, making blunt dmg not deadly, but deadly with a % chance (increasing after every repeat), if the health of the opponent gets close to 0%

if opponent is below 10% health, blunt dmg would not kill necessarily and Pachy would need to repeat this process more often, which would make it potentially more vulnerable.

As I really like the concept of connecting every action, to an equal reaction.

"Is it really worth it, to keep ramming? I could get hurt, I might better run - or maybe just go for it"

Decisions over decisions. Could be engaging. Or even turn everything around, once pachy hurts itself and becomes a free meal.

[lucid mauve]

Sounds horrible, you saying i should rely on luck ? I mean if the pachy mange to hit something, good for him. Shouldt be punished.

[harsh jungle]

The pachy is perfectly designed for ramming. A goat doesnt snap in half after ramming other goats all day

[lucid mauve]

I mean if im playing shant, and manage to stomp a giga. It would feel horrible if there was a chance of me breaking my legs if i used it. It should be bad for the giga, not for me lol

[sage yew]

some risk should be involved in my thought
1-2 rams = 2% chance for receiving dmg
3-4 rams = 6% chance
5-6 rams = 15% chance

1-2 rams = 5% dmg potential
3-4 rams = 10% dmg potential
5-6 rams = 25% dmg potential

Maybe a pachy could have taken more (in real life), but values are more related to balancing. But using it's head structure, while the spine is absorbing the impact, even if it's literally made for that process, it seems quiet dangerous to do so

even the best boxer, has a chance of hurting himself by various factors

Other games have for example jamming weapons, after barrels overheat and used in rapid succession

[lucid mauve]

I mean its not dumb, atleast you have a suggestion. I just feel like luck is not fun, and as you said earlier with group or solo. This would make it incredible easier if you are 2 instead of one. If you damage yourself in the process, your friend can still ram kill it easy.

[sage yew]

doing it for fun and in self defense, are different things tho

[sage yew]

I don't mind if groups are benefited from this
but reducing stun duration seems a bit of, as it's not really too long or too short now, reducing dmg overall seems also not so good, as it feels kinda, lets say, realistic

but on the other hand, maybe are pachys supposed to be this dangerous and you better just don't mess with it?

but, even if a bit of "Luck" is involved
15% chance to recieve 25% dmg, is not game breaking, you can still go for it

even games like counterstrike (super competative) have factors involved, that are involved in accuracy (to some degree)

[lucid mauve]

You are already benefited by beeing more. Yea for now, but alot more dinos are coming.

[lucid mauve]

Yea true, but you dont need to think about you gun stop working if you fired more then x amounts of bullets

[sage yew]

in some games you actually do
Arma for example, if you've fired a gun till it overheats, it reduces accuracy or even stops working entirely if you overdo it

other games have that too, but currently I can't name them

but its not x amount of bullets, but x amount of bullets over y amount of time, but non the less, just an example

[lucid mauve]

Yea, but the ones i can come up with its 100% chance. Your gun will get overheated or whatever it is.

Still think skill should be the main factor, understanding pros/cons of dinos etc.

[sage yew]

well, it would be a "pro/con" decission if you are willing to risk it or not, so in that sense ;)

but all I want to say, it's nothing that has never been done before and nothing that people would necessarily call "not fun"

but I actually don't want to defend it, it's just an proposal and other approaches are also welcomed

[lucid mauve]

Would you like it, if your shant and you could break a leg if you used stomp. And you manage to stomp one giga and break your leg cus it was 15% chance of it.

And the fight goes from fun and interactive from both sides, and then you break your leg. And its more or less "gg"

[sage yew]

if this kind of feedback is understandable? Actually yes. Seems reasonable to go over the capacities of what your body can actually handle and have a feedback

In real life, I would assume that many predators have like just one chance to land a hit and if they miss it, they'd better run

[lucid mauve]

Yea, i mean its not dumb suggestion. All suggestions are better then noone : P My thpoughs can be 100% wrong. I like ideas : P

Ive discussed tons of times here, and changed my perspective on stuff because others have had good arguments : P

[tawdry oyster]

Hey guys 👋, what are y’all discussing?

[sage yew]

Raptor pounce could be extended to a similar degree. Like missing a jump and landing directly between the feet

could be seen skill related, but missing something will be still chance related

talking about it, skill and luck should maybe just go hand in hand?

[sage yew]

how to balance playables, without breaking the game

[tawdry oyster]

Well, it can be done

But I can still see people complaining even when the playables are balanced

[lucid mauve]

lol yes, 2 years from now. We still gonna be complaining.

[tawdry oyster]

I’m guessing the only way to balance without constant buffing/nerfing would be if Dino damage would react to every dino differently

I can be wrong tho

[sage yew]

right, something that is entirely missing
a juvi shouldn't be able to kill an adult by biting it 200 times, because it's tine teeth wouldn't even penetrate the skin

[lucid mauve]

But damn 200 times, that means it might be deserved lol

[tawdry oyster]

Yep

[lucid mauve]

If the other guy didnt manage to hit back : P

[tawdry oyster]

Let’s be real though, an adult dying to a juvenile after being bitten 200 times is pretty absurd

[sage yew]

he deserves an medal tho!

[lucid mauve]

I would be so annoyed if i saw someone afk grow as juvi, and couldt kill him lol

[sage yew]

true, wounds could still bleed and after some time it would be possible to kill

but the aproach that 200 bites equals 1 death is just lame

[lucid mauve]

yea, i get your point. And a agree : P

[tawdry oyster]

The only thing that WOULD make sense if the adult died from bleed

Constant bitting=no bleed heal

[sage yew]

or of old age

[tawdry oyster]

A long process but not as absurd as 200 bites

[tawdry oyster]

I hope death of old age is implemented, so we have to work for something

[lucid mauve]

Yea that elder thing

[sage yew]

imagine killing an AFK 40ton brachio by a juvi raptor after lets say 2000 bites

[tawdry oyster]

💀

[sage yew]

I already hate it when it's possible to kill people by just keep shooting at the feat ...that's not how it works xD

[tawdry oyster]

By a big dino yes, by lets say a juvenile no

[sage yew]

skin thickness could be represented by a armor value, that's acting like a threshold

[tawdry oyster]

But that would have to be only because of bleed not damage itself

[sage yew]

oh duck! I need to go to work >_<'
bye guys

nearly forgot D:

[tawdry oyster]

It sounds pretty complicated, but if the devs do manage to pull something like this off, than the balancing will be 😗👌

[tawdry oyster]

Cya

[harsh jungle]

Likely happening only when afk, the juvi after managing to pierce the skin might as well 'hold [E] to eat"

Or just rip a piece out. Gore is added so why not

[summer phoenix]

@crystal trail quick question. If both the elder system and perk system are core mechanics, would it mean that there would be no dinosaurs being released other than the troodon in between sense update 6 til the elder system in update 7?

[proven river]

@barren zephyr The devs are making a more dynamic scarring system where depending on what attacked you and on what part of your body, a scar will appear and I imagine that indenting the model is something that might come, I'm just telling you it's planned ♪┏(･o･)┛♪

[barren zephyr]

Oh that's very cool! thank you

[faint folio]

Well, actually it does make sense. You should have a chance of making it out of encounters alive. Making mistakes (wrong environment, too far from burrow, not spotting an ambush, allowing a pack too close, choosing to fight when you should have run, etc) decreases the chance of survival to the point of making dying likely. There shouldn't be a situation where, no matter what you choose to do, you can't escape. But if the player makes mistakes, it should be punished, and that's where the survival is, and it should be the only time you truly get an "oh ship" moment.

The issue with legacy balance, especially for juvis, was that if you were spotted, you were dead. Adults were just that much better in every single way. It encourages afk growth, and not engaging with the game until your dino is viable, and playables that were never viable just weren't played often. Evrima overall does better, but it's still an issue-- look at dryo/hypsi. People aren't expecting to kill a stego with them, but because they don't have much chance to escape a predator if seen, they just aren't played.

[sage yew]

Hipsy is also boring, because you can't even grow one, I just see tham as landscape decorations. I don't even bother to hunt them.

but yes, theoreticaly an escape should be possible, but reality differs in some ways, like you get ambushed from both sides, or you succumb to other situations. To escape, fight, defend or other things you can't even avoid, so something will always happen and you either die or survive. And this includes all the aspects you've mentioned

The only thing that I would desire, is that you don't have playables that have only the purpose to become food, as every playable should have it's way to come through. That's more an aspect of mechanics and not balancing

[fossil pagoda]

I love that juvis can, generally, escape and hide easily, and I don't really know about balancing in legacy. But, I think that there should be situations where chances of getting out alive are tiny or practically 0, as it would happen in some survival scenarios, like e.g. you are a mid-tire or so and you are suddenly surrounded by a pack of Utahs and don't have an easy way to escape and hide. You might blame that you weren't paying enough attention to your surroundings, but also that the Utah group was coordinated and playing well, for example. There is always a mistake leading to a no-no situation, but sometimes is more bad luck than mistakes, or the other players also playing properly. Like, if you are ambushed by a carno that was hiding in a bush for 10 minutes waiting for someone to pass by... it is not your fault, you can't just check every bush in your way for potential predators...

Dyro should have borrow, and IMO hypsy should have a way of climbing trees or something like that. The problem with those is that the feeling of being weak and constantly hide is something that you already get with any playable when you are juvenile, but playing dyro and hypsy, you always stay in that phase, so they are way less interesting to play than other

[sage yew]

If you just go for that idea of being under powered in a absolutely hostile environment, there is a lot of enjoyment to gain. Only the loop of eating and drinking and trying to pass time till you can repeat the process is not really engaging for a small critter

Like you should always have a good reason for what you are doing next and not only boredom, which you currently can bypass using hunting or fighting.

And that applies to every creature. Because as a carnivore, after eating, drinking and having your diets full, you can basically only go hunting for sport

[fossil pagoda]

That's the big big problem with the game right now, and it is what causes most people afk growing (basically you have nothing else to do other than expose yourself to predators) or herbis killing other herbis for sport for example, since players simply get bored. Maybe in U7 there is something to aim for other than surviving, with the perks and elders...? Idk if there is any information about what's coming with it

[sage yew]

I personally think, that AFK growing is mostly outdatet, as I had much fun growing up in an hostile environment and engaging with the world while being still small. Growing is so fast, that you only really need 2-4 times a food source to become adult, there is no real difficulty to it. You can survive just on feasting on AI as it's pretty abundant and easy to hunt.

I mostly get bored when I'm adult and that's the point where I just do risky stuff and see what happens.

[jovial otter]

There really needs to be an incentive for nesting for the parents. I personally find it fun to nest, but finding a mate and spending that time trying to care for other players has no reward other than fun.

I assume it'll tie in with perks, where you have to nest to be able to get certain ones. But if not, there's gotta be SOMETHING else to make it useful for the parents

[eager grove]

To kinda play off this, my friend and I nest when we get to adults pretty regularly. The other day we nested in one of the nesting grounds and the nest had a + beside it. Is there a bonus given if you nest in the nesting grounds? I thought they took that away.

[icy lion]

Faster egg incubation, higher nest health, and faster growth for the babies

[eager grove]

Perfect. We were wondering if it made a difference. Thanks!

[sage yew]

I suggested a similar idea as @rigid fiber, here in the discussion and people
didn't liked the idea of being depended on the mercy of others, to walk up
the ranks and no one wants to end up repeatedly with sadistic parents that
pursuit to kill you, after you've invested all the time to grow. It could also
create a positive feedback loop, where people create communities to simply
boost each other. And all the beauty of reproduction would be maybe lost
pretty fast.

But as always I think there would be ways to circumnavigate such problems.
Even the aspect that you basically gain nothing from it as a parent, but your
offspring. This as a social experiment is worth trying and I would love to see
someone to make it actually work.

Nesting is just too irrelevant for now and doing it for perks seems trivial, but
well, maybe it could work in it's favour as a reward system for having
successful offspring's.

Maybe genetics could work here as well.
for the 1st generation you'll need 2 parents. For the second generation you'll
need 4 grand parents and if I'm not mistaking it you would need
8 grand-grand parents for the third generation.
The increase in difficulty would make the process definitely more interesting
as offspring gains more and more benefits (maybe also some drawbacks to
balance stuff out?) over the time.

[slim halo]

Btw it's not suited for ambush as of now, with the wonky habitats and not enough playables, but if we had those, it'd be an ambush predator, it's build is for ambushing, it's just not suitable for the current state, and it's not meant to be agile whatsoever, it's made for bursts of speed and a quick attack, agility goes to utah, carno will almost 90% hit you, it's almost inescapable once he sees you (unless they're a skill issue or there's a rock etc.) He can just spam his ability and hit you from a mile away. Just putting this out here, (this section is muted btw so don't expect me to respond, I like to avoid passive aggressive arguments, not saying you are, just that it happens. )

[cyan flame]

I'd agree, current carno is not suited for ambush, which is fine since carno is not meant to be one. But compared, I'd argue current one might be better at ambushing compared to the prior version, if only due to faster charge. (and I guess the massive hitbox would help as well, even if its not meant to have that kind of hitbox). I'm not sure what the habitat, much less playable would change the mechanics and behaviour of the playable itself. Nor do I see how there can be made an argument for it being built for ambushing when everything about it's main mechanic requires it to get moving first before it can do anything which is contrary to how something like deino works which is an actual ambusher. Yes, it's meant to be very fast for a short time, this works better with pursuit than ambush, so that's fine too. And true, carno hasn't been agile, but therein lies the issue, you don't hunt agile critters by being less agile, hence why the charge was quite useless earlier, whereas now it actually works to run things down properly. (I don't think there's a skill issue in the carno hitbox on charge being quite overtuned honestly). But it's fine that it's very difficult to avoid a carno coming after you, since carno is meant to be a terror on the open plains for anything smaller.

[forest mulch]

am I tripping or does pachy body fracture when hitting you in the tail now

[burnt bone]

new hit registration favor's pachy's side now, so latency can make it feel like it hit you from further. However, it looks perfectly fine for the pachy.

[forest mulch]

even if it looks fine on the pachy I don't think it makes it excusable

because if you suddenly get put out of battle because a pachy grazes the tip of your tail

it's just really emersion breaking

[faint folio]

Yeah other than the ridiculous charge hitbox size and the fact that Utah bucked Stam drain hits 0 in 2 chunks (making it hard to predict), I actually like that the carno can turn now and charge when it needs to

[burnt bone]

its no better than it not functioning on the pachy's side. Last update about 1/3 to half my rams would literally just phase through carnos and not deal any damage, even though it clearly hit and even made the sound. The problem was even worse for omnis and other pachies(when we did 1v1s for fun) it would have the same problem of my hit not registering, but it also made the target fall over and start sliding across the floor, so it was even more immersion breaking.

so either way someone is being flubbed because of lag

[forest mulch]

You're putting this as if there's only two options. The third one would be for the devs to actually fix the hit detection in general

[forest mulch]

Knowing pachys I seriously doubt "For fun" is the right term of phrase XD

[burnt bone]

it works as intended on the pachy's side so it isnt a hitbox issue, the issue is literally just latency, something that would be near impossible to fix

[forest mulch]

Then if latency is a problem with these types of attacks I genuinely wonder how other games like BoB were able to implement stun-like attacks from dinosaurs that don't end up crippling you from the tip of the tail.

[olive lake]

@barren zephyr They willl do a scar update so we just gotta wait!

@brave sonnet There is leave button on the pack

[barren jay]

@brave sonnet couldn't they just be in your group to track you down then press the button to leave right before attacking you?

[olive lake]

agreed!

[barren zephyr]

yes someone did tell me that

[brave sonnet]

@olive lake there is but you have to stand still and since you so close to accept the invite your already rammed and killed before you could even get to that second page

[olive lake]

Its a you problem from joining it

so its the users fault for this act really

[brave sonnet]

@olive lake that makes no sense since its not in the game to be used for that...

[olive lake]

Do oyu have something going on in you're brain? pack up with friends and team work and NOT mainly used to hunt and kill people

[jade brook]

wtf man

[olive lake]

I'm not wrong aint i?

[brave sonnet]

@olive lake im saying its happened to me not it happens every time you need to relax

[jade brook]

firstly, yes you are. Also you can disagree and still be civil

[olive lake]

No I'm just saying it you dont need to press accept every time you see one which I assume you do

[brave sonnet]

@olive lake i do when they are nice and dont attack me. How am i to know after 5 mins of them being nice they were going to invi me then start trying to kill me right away

[jade brook]

nothing wrong with packing with randoms, and a hotkey would be a great and simple way to remedy that

[olive lake]

I do agree its just people have to be really carful

[turbid quarry]

[olive lake]

btw you can set a differnt key to it

[jade brook]

? wdym?

[olive lake]

Go to settings its the friendly call which lets you accept them

so you can change that

[jade brook]

you are confused on the issue

[barren jay]

So basically just a hotkey to leave the group quickly to prevent people in your group from tracking you down

[jade brook]

yes

[feral solstice]

Oh

[olive lake]

I think that is one not sure

[feral solstice]

Yeah I agree with that

Could very well default it to the 5 key

Maybe have it emit a subtle grunt sound

As it’d be unfair for someone to randomly leave your group without you even knowing lol

[jade brook]

not that i'm against such a signal but how is it unfair?

ah you mean like someone would leave -then betray with no nametag

[feral solstice]

Correct

[agile roost]

#general-feedback message
I've never had this issue

I am able to search without it being case sensitive

[tawdry oyster]

@rigid fiber a good suggestion, only problem I have with it that it only encourages people to request for eggs but not to nest

@agile roost or just shorter incubation

Like maybe 30 minutes max

Because at some point parents used to leave the nest to go for food

[agile roost]

Yeah

[tawdry oyster]

Making the parents less hungry would make the gameplay of future nest invaders mega hard

[agile roost]

Maybe they should be less hungry only for a limited time

Like once the juvies hit a certain growth stage

[tawdry oyster]

Wdym

Like baby-juvie?

[sage yew]

I have not yet nested with every species, but the increase of demand,
with the change of diets, didn't felt of. As nesting is on its self a
resource demanding process, that shouldn't be underestimated.

One could argue, that increased difficulty is discouraging for
something, that's not really beneficial, but that could change at
some point. Especially as nesting is currently seen mostly as
something fun you can do, with no real necessity.

Nesting might be hard, but it involves a higher sense of cooperation.
Resolving in interesting dynamics, like role shifts, resource
management and risk calculation that actually feel quite real and
comprehensible.

[limber hull]

why did you write this like it were a poem lol

[sage yew]

🤔

🧐

[agile roost]

Yeah

When they can eat on their own

[tawdry oyster]

Well I mean, babies are normally really hungry so I don’t see why they should be less hungry

Plus every time a parent feeds it isn’t that much

[agile roost]

Ok until they pass hatchlings they can basically go off and look for food

Then the parents hunger goes back to normal

[tawdry oyster]

Eh, I don’t think it’s that serious, I mean when I was a baby pachy the whole time at least 1 of my parents were sitting by us, and the they switched up once and after that we were juvies

Having parents lose less hunger would just make it hard for the future nest invaders

The only thing that I find a problem is the incubation time which 45 minutes is way too long

[agile roost]

Yeah

[reef nacelle]

@empty epoch when did they confirm there will be no fires? (These devs changing their mind all the time is hard to keep up with)

[proven river]

Filipe stream

[true haven]

I wish they will not cancel the movement overhaul

[rocky shoal]

@agile roost think of it like this, ram horns are keratin but they can get scratches that scar. If it's deep enough, it wont regrow iirc

[agile roost]

Ah I see

But the scars are like bright red, like if they have blood flow in them

[rocky shoal]

I mean, bone has blood in it, and keratin would have something to keep it attached to the bone (such as skin)
Our fingernails for example

[agile roost]

Right

But our nails never get scratches compared to the ones on our skin

[rocky shoal]

Because our nails are thin

I think

[agile roost]

Same thing with carnos horns

They're pretty thin

[rocky shoal]

I dunno lmao honestly

[tall hearth]

Keep in mind the scarring system is a work in progress. The devs plan on implementing locational scarring in future updates, so maybe they'll have a better scarring area system by then.

If not, I wouldn't be worried about it personally

[agile roost]

Yeah

It just doesn't look fitting seeing bloody scars on horns

#general-feedback message
Another interesting idea

[tall hearth]

I wouldn't say that's a good one though lol

[rocky shoal]

We had a discussion on defecation in #885026244444442655

Lemme find it

[agile roost]

It's actually pretty funny though

[rocky shoal]

#885026244444442655 message

The first one

[tall hearth]

Roleplayers would find way too many ways to be...weird with it.

[agile roost]

No game has a "pooping" system currently

Lol imagine

[rocky shoal]

#885026244444442655 message
Last message sent related to it

[agile roost]

Hmm

I never knew people would be so keen on a system like this

[tall hearth]

I would prefer it not being a mechanic. Scat enjoyers would make the game nearly unbearable

[agile roost]

Scat enjoyers?

[rocky shoal]

That's true, i forgot about that

[tall hearth]

People who enjoy playing with feces, whether irl or virtually

Not something I wanna deal with on a daily basis lol

[agile roost]

Dang

[rocky shoal]

Maybe if you mess around in it you get sick

To deter people from that

[agile roost]

Or it decomposes

[agile roost]

You get vomit sickness for staying near it for 30 seconds or smth

[rocky shoal]

Nah not just staying near it, for interacting with it

It can make you nauseous if you stay near it for too long depending on your size

[agile roost]

Oh ok

Yeah

[sage yew]

Eh what? The Ark.

[agile roost]

Really?

[sage yew]

yes.

[agile roost]

Never knew

[sage yew]

It's so trivial, that you actually don't really care most of the time
but I don't see immersion potentials here.

[rocky shoal]

Tracking, smaller dinos eating bugs the poop attracts

[agile roost]

And you can get smelly feet

[rocky shoal]

Which adds to tracking :>

[sage yew]

Assuming that animals will have a scent mechanic at some point, bugs could
be attracted by positions at that playables resided for a long enough time, or
to the tracks themselves

Bugs should be a thing in general tho
basically an easy to hunt AI, for hatchlings and juvis. As goats and deers
should be too fast for them and boars too strong - well not currently,
because their quirks are easily exploitable.

[sage yew]

@balmy gust you couldn't have used any less words but this is pretty accurate

@icy lion the video said it all tho, nothing to be ad there

[icy lion]

That was essentially just a video advertisement for a post. They could have added what particular points they would have wanted or how to adapt it to the game. Instead, they just plopped a link down and said "add"

[sage yew]

to be fair, he would have to basically copy and paste the whole text, if it wasn't the video, as it actually explained the whole concept of games between animals.

But just my 2 cents.
I thought it hit the theme pretty well and was wondering why it vanished 🤔

[sage yew]

@distant storm not gonna say the camera lock wouldn't need some more polishment.
But there are some things that should been taken into account.

1. Eating is, as weird as it sounds, mentally distracting. It's an active
   process that requires attention. Especially if it's not prepared for
   the ease of consumption, like we humans are used to.

2. Some animals, especially herbivores, have a wide viewing angle by
   having their eyes at the side of their skull. But there is a catch:
   while you are eating and your head is focused onto the food, you are
   only able to use one eye of each side and the resulting lack of
   inability to use binocular vision, impairs vision quality by a not so
   miniscule amount. But there is indeed motion detection possible,
   but not full visibility that would been expected.

3. While your animal is eating, you are not. You don't have to focus on
   anything beside pressing a button and your full attention goes only
   to your surrounding. The actual awareness, that any approaching
   predator would comprehensibly expect, can't be so well reflected,
   by granting 180° of freedom to look around, as you are able - while
   not distracted by actually eating - to scan your surroundings perfectly.

[distant storm]

The degree of vision isn't currently at 180° though. The angle also isn't always centered to the spine of your animal, sometimes you can only see to one side. This means we're looking around at 90° or so.

Herbivores have other senses to make up for this: Smell and hearing. We obviously don't have scent particles or anyway to tell if something has passed a while ago. We also have limited hearing compared to what would happen. I Understand a carnivore honing into a carcass as it goes in to retrieve organs. But I'm not saying to make the game realistic or to mimic this trance while filling our needs. In a gaming perspective, the field of view is too narrow, especially for herbivores that should have a wider field of view.

The issue is there isn't 180° of view right now, just to implement it to that standard.

[sage yew]

1. fixing this weird offset viewing angle.

2. increase visions for herbivores: slightly.

   • maybe ad blure or streaks to the side?

3. improve scent mechanics

   • like by a lot.

4. actually eating and the eating animation, is sometimes out of sync.
   This needs to be fixed.

5. you are always able to look around, like any animal would do, by
   simply stopping eating for a second. You are not forced to eat
   anything in one go tho.

6. maybe just make eating into an active process?
   As pressing a button is boring and totally lame. Maybe let us select
   the branches? The leaves or flower we want to eat? Maybe scatter
   some toxic stuff in between, so you don't get bored and make it a
   bit more engaging?

[faint folio]

I agree with most of this. Especially making foraging an active process-- playing an herbi can be fun, but a lot of the time, especially for slower herbis or solo players, it is incredibly boring and disengaging unless a carni is trying to kill you

Making food gathering more interesting/engaging for herbis would help, as well as providing additional enrichment-- dryo/hypsi building systems, herbi sparring (deer/goats/horses/sheep/giraffes spar for mates or for social position, without intent to kill), etc would help make playing herbi more interesting

[tall hearth]

Those animals do spar, but they dont come out unharmed. I dont want a sparring system like BoBs in which the 2 consenting parties that choose to fight end the spar unharmed. Any and all infighting should have consequences.

[sullen delta]

what does BoB stand for?

[sage yew]

It's either butt over boobs, or beasts of bermuda

[sullen delta]

alr

[feral solstice]

Lmao

[tidal plume]

#general-feedback message
Please share your opinions on this. Im curious 👀

[limber hull]

weight = health
reducing health = reducing weight

also, on top of that, stego is the only thing we have keeping deino from becoming an entirely dominant animal over the entire ecosystem. Deino has more health, more bleed resistance and a safe escape into water, as well as the ability to instantly kill anything below 4 tons

[tidal plume]

Well with "weight = health", some realism sacrifices have to be made in order to keep balance. The Isle isn't beyond warping actual reality for the sake of the game as shown with ankylosaurus having very different anatomy than the IRL animal in order to be more "mobile". Reducing stegos health/weight for the sake of making the game balanced isn't far fetched.
Another thing, while stegos do technically keep deinos in the water, deinos arent what i'd call restrained. Currently, deinos are very easy to grow since they can feed mostly off scavenging and fish till at least sub adult. Speaking of, sub adults are very capable hunting being relatively fast on land and can latch onto other small-maybe medium sized dinosaurs and easily kill/drown them. This also isn't helped by the fact that there's been a recent rise in "anti-cannibals" which further grows the deino pop.
Yes, stegos do keep deinos off land for some time, otherwise they have little impact on their pop.

[limber hull]

thats the issue though

weaken stegos and now deinos have even less to fear

stegos are the only thing keeping deinos from overstepping and controlling everything

[tidal plume]

That can be fixed with simple debuffs such as making deinos dehydration on land a lot faster in order to make them entirely reliant on the water in order to not die and prolonged exposure on land for lets say 7m would be a massive threat to them

Plus keeping stego OP as it is sacrifices it for the same of an already impaired creature

[limber hull]

deino already has an insanely fast dehydration

[tidal plume]

and completely ignores the other dinos that do have stego on their diet such as omni

[cyan flame]

If you make them dehydrate even faster, they can barely go on land at all. They already dehydrate really fast. And while stats can be changed, it's not really the issue here. Stego is well, a stego, and it's in a roster of things that really aren't good at hunting it at all. Same goes for deino. And like deinos can control their own pop, and hunt stegos, stegos in turn can mitigate deinos, and kill their own as well.

[limber hull]

omni really only has stego on because there's not many other options. Stego is a really bad target for omni tbh, if we had trike, that'd be a preferable target

[tidal plume]

another solution is to actually give deino an incentive to cannibalism beyond a diet that can be filled much easier and with less risk

[cyan flame]

Also, diet does not mean you have to hunt fully grown targets. Deinos can drown any stego under 4T, omnis can kill younger but still big stegos a lot easier. Even carnos can give it a go against younger stegos.

[tidal plume]

and yet younger stegos are still relatively strong for their growth and size

[tidal plume]

that only adds to it. stego literally doesnt have any land predators to worry about

[cyan flame]

They are yes, but I did say doable. Any stego under 4T dies to a lunge, and with smaller stature, they have less reach, as well as obviously less weight thus less health and blood to survive with. As well as the obvious fact that a stego at 75% isn't going to do as much damage, thus allowing carnos for example to take the risk.

[burnt bone]

honestly a lot of things are incredibly strong while they are young.
looks at sub deino snatching people 50m away from the water and sub carno having more speed and stam but near equal bulk

[cyan flame]

But in general, I'd say it'd be better to make stegos more competitive, same as with deinos, than relying on the whole "needs a predator".

[burnt bone]

I'm still hoping migrations increase competition enough so that having a group of 5 is extremely difficult to maintain.

[tidal plume]

stego just needs more ways to die beyond luck

[burnt bone]

yeah, but the main things that would be able to take down a stego have nothing to support themselves. Like if you add rex... what does it eat other than stegos? and whats to stop it from becoming the new stego if it can live? Even something smaller like allo, what does allo eat and what eats it (other than deino since its avoidable)?

[tidal plume]

you're asking questions about dinosaurs that won't even be in the same game as stego for a very long time

[rare fractal]

Wait is the argument that stego lacks ways to die?
Wouldn’t the same logic apply to both deino and Carno only moreso?
Like seriously if played properly Carno can only ever be killed by carnos and deinos

Accept in stegos case, deinos, omnis, and other stegos can kill them

So why tackle stego before the other 2?

[tidal plume]

carno is not even comparable to stego lol

[limber hull]

in the current state, yea, it is

[tidal plume]

carno has so many ways of dying. a two member pack of carnos, dead

maybe likr 4 or 5 omnis, dead

deino, dead

stego, waist of time and/or dead

two pachies, dead

[limber hull]

pachies are their own little can of worms

[rare fractal]

It demonstrably is, how is it not?

[cyan flame]

Two other stegos, or one getting the jump on you, and you die as stego. Two deinos jumping you at the water, you die.

[rare fractal]

No it can just leave

[cyan flame]

So in that case you can apply the same logic there.

[limber hull]

the only reason the egregiously overpowered carno is only countered by the equally egregious pachy

[cyan flame]

A stego can only kill another stego, or something that allows the stego to kill it.

[tidal plume]

stego on the other hand, omnis itll be fine lol

deino, if theres two, maybe dead

[cyan flame]

But every other playable in the game can avoid stego, even deino, unless it's on land for some reason.

[tidal plume]

stego, thats 50/50]\

pachies, itll be fine

[cyan flame]

Meanwhile, deino kill is RNG, and all the others control engagements to more or less degree.

[tidal plume]

carno, its especially fine

[rare fractal]

But everything in the game can avoid stego, and deino can solo it rn, and in last patch

Like I don’t think you understand that this is a survival game

This isn’t a battle sim

[tidal plume]

bro what-

[rare fractal]

Some animals will be borderline uncontested by most because of their balance, but if they’re balanced it works

The sauropods, shant, trike…etc are good examples of this

Anky is the quintessential example of this

[cyan flame]

I wouldn't call them "overpowered" honestly, because some of the biggest issues with them are questionable application of mechanics (CC), or now noticable issues with some mechanics (stamina chunk drain), as well as outright issues such as hitbox. But then "overpowered" to me is more so the entirety of the playable, when it's working as intended (see deino, it does not suffer from issues, it just has all the advantages). (aside from the sub stages, but those are also more of an oversight due to new growth rather than a deliberate balance shift.)

[rare fractal]

They’re circumstantially overpowered due to bugs and poor mechanics indirectly effecting them

[tidal plume]

i didnt say carno wasnt OP, it definitely is but the difference is that carno takes much more risk since it HAS to hunt and therefore it dies way way more often but with stego, it doesnt. stego can just chill and just be a little smart about where they drink and it'll last till the heat death of the universe

[cyan flame]

@tidal plumeWell, the fact is, stego can't kill anything but another stego unless the other thing allows it. Every other playable have more control in their engagement, and some of them can kill stegos at various stages, even adult stegos. And if you're fine with deinos culling their own, then you can apply that to stego too.

[rare fractal]

But Carno can survive off of AI comfortably rn

[cyan flame]

Alright, fair enough!

[limber hull]

carnos are very much overpowered. Their insanely stupid hitbox, bugged or not, makes them godlike. The fact that they are the ONLY animal without an immediate stam penalty makes them very strong. The fact that they can take down an animal of near equal size without even biting it, by simply running back and forth, is simply ridiculous. It is an overpowered animal

[barren zephyr]

@tidal plume Omniraptors are not weak, they can kill stegos and dienos can solo stegos. Carno is not supposed to hunt big game like stegos

Stegos actually need a buff

just not until apexes are in

[rare fractal]

They’d need at least a more versatile moveset

I don’t know about straight stat buffs

[tidal plume]

but with all of those (assuming this is a complete roster) they all have at least one major threat they have to be worried about at all times but with stego currently, they have one threat and its region locked lol

[cyan flame]

I get your point, I just disagree somewhat due to how I see the hitbox issue and some of the rest. The stam start up cost should be added, that just makes sense, as well as a possibly higher stam drain now that charge is more so meant to get the target properly. And the CC I obviously agree is an issue, for both of our hunting happy critters.

[tidal plume]

there isnt much in terms of danger for them to worry about rn

[rare fractal]

But it’s a region they’re forced to go to every 30-40 minutes, same as everything else, also Omni can hunt stego

[barren zephyr]

Omniraptors can kill stegos even after U6, it's a little more difficult but it's 100% possible even with a skilled stego

[rare fractal]

Facial pouncing also lacks a counter that doesn’t involve a rock or cliff

[cyan flame]

And if there was a complete roster, stego would have things to worry about?

[tidal plume]

literally all they have to do is be a little smart with where they drink and they're fine

[cyan flame]

Right now neither deino nor stego has anything really designed to hunt it. Deino is even more "invunerable" than stego, since it only needs to fear it's own kind.

While stegos can be overwhelmed and overpowered by numbers if nothing else, something you can't apply to deino.

[barren zephyr]

But yeah, that is kind of true. They don't have much to worry about as they can use most places with rocks to their advantage

[tidal plume]

right but theyre also bringing up dinosaurs that are assumedly arent coming out for years

[cyan flame]

20 omnis will kill a stego, even if they lose 15 of them in the attempt. 20 of them can't touch a deino unless the deino decides to go on land and meet them head on.

Same applied to carno megapacks, or even tenos (or so I've heard, apparently tenos can kill stegos).

[barren zephyr]

a single omni can solo a stego

now that's unlikely

[tidal plume]

yeah and going to the moon is very much possible but its also extremely difficult and a waist of time

[cyan flame]

A single one I doubt, but I can see 3-4 of them doing it if they are very patient and careful about it.

But the point would still stand, that number can't touch a deino, even a deino on land most likely.

[barren zephyr]

Nah, I've killed several stegos with raptors and soloed stegos with dienos 4 times so far (non including unofficial servers)

[rare fractal]

Yes because that’s literally deinos one and only counter…

[cyan flame]

Hilariously enough, deino is almost as good at fighting omnis on land as stego is, due to alt bite + massive bleed resist and a 2K extra blood in the first place. And possibly due to less easy to actually pounce on them.

[barren zephyr]

A single one can do it if the stego is careless enough

[rare fractal]

Also deino is FAR worse in this regard than stego to a laughable degree

[tidal plume]

okay not everyone is as skillful as you, apparently

[rare fractal]

It’s certainly possible I’ve seen it done a few times just spectating

Not that this should even be considered remotely reasonable

But it’s possible

[tidal plume]

im telling you being contious about where you drink and not going to croc hot spots to do so IS very effective for not dying to them

[cyan flame]

I believe you two. And I do wish stego got a rework at some point in time. But that remains to be seen when we get the other apexes and a more varied roster.

[cyan flame]

And just.. walking away from a stego works to not die to them. If we're talking about just dying to something.

[barren zephyr]

I'm just saying it's possible

and it's not as hard as you think

[tidal plume]

that only makes things worse now cause stegos have literally nothing to fear if everyone follows the philosophy of just "walking away"

also stegos have a stupid amount of stam and can run for like 2 1/2m

[barren zephyr]

stegos stamina for running is pretty balanced isn't it?

[tidal plume]

yeah, it can run down a carno just by it not leaving its LOS which is admittedly hard considering this maps atrocious design

[barren zephyr]

No it can't.

[tidal plume]

yes...it can. carno doesnt run for very long

[barren zephyr]

Ik, but it still outruns a stego

[cyan flame]

I've told you, they have to fear more things than deino do. If deino is fine, so is stego. There's no issue here. What we can do is add more reasons for deino and stego to kill their own if anything.

[rare fractal]

I agree...it's just a shame that they're only counterplay is to simply never be noticed by one

[cyan flame]

It's the substages that have strange speed/stamina. Deino, stego, carno, at least. No idea on the others.

[tidal plume]

it can outrun it but stego out stams it

[barren zephyr]

Nope, i've tested

and when I say that, I actually did test it

[rare fractal]

This is just...false...

The stam regen rate makes up for the total distance traveled by far

[tidal plume]

that also isnt taking in the fact most stegos can be found it herds

[barren zephyr]

Honestly, I really want all juveniles stats reduced, especially stamina

they should be slower as they're smaller

and you shouldn't be able to run forever

[tidal plume]

jesus christ not legacy juvie stam

[barren zephyr]

Literally when was the last time you actually had to sit down because of stam as a juvenile unless it was from special ability

Literally like never

[tidal plume]

bro literally most juvies have 0 defenses otherwise lol

they should at least have some chance of survival beyond luck

[barren zephyr]

Juveniles will be able to fight other juveniles easier

[tidal plume]

okay well most of the pop isnt juvie so that doesnt really matter too much

[barren zephyr]

rather than you move so fast that you can't actually fight things as easier

[barren zephyr]

But what about the players that are?

it should be more than just finding a corpse and then sitting in a bush

because that's exactly how it is right now

[tidal plume]

then its an equal fight lol. juvies strength doesnt matter since most are a strong as a .2 pencil'

[cyan flame]

The stamina duration, sure, the regen needs to be buffed instead though. And speeds are more or less fine, we don't want slow and weak juvies, it makes for afk bushplay, which is terrible all around. And sure, stegos can be found in herds, because a solo stego is surprisingly vunerable, especially to the deino hordes that exist.

[barren zephyr]

Not a big nerf in the speed, but enough to make it feel like you're speed isn't too fast or too slow

[cyan flame]

Need proper juvie biomes if we are going to change how viable juvies are, so they can avoid adults easier and better without just having to rely on never being seen.

[barren zephyr]

because you're so small going 1M km

[barren zephyr]

they're adding something like that

[cyan flame]

Yeah, that's fair. I'm not saying speeds are perfect as they are, just that they do need to be able to get to their diets and stuff, and keep up with adults if you find someone willing to take you in.

So it's mostly that you can run forever that might be an issue, at least more so than the speed itself.

[barren zephyr]

well, when humans are added a baby stego is able to outrun it??

currently they already do outrun it

which is kind of ridiculous in my opinion

[cyan flame]

Sounds kind of funny honestly, besides, human will get guns, so that baby stego might want to run the other way :p

[barren zephyr]

But still, it's a baby stego I don't think it's gonna be able to actually go 18 km

I feel baby stegos should be slowed down to about 15km at least

[limber hull]

why

its already the weakest juvi

[cyan flame]

While I can agree realism wise, I do think this is more a matter of balance. You also don't want to make them so slow they can't get around reasonably well.

Same reason the other juvies go zoom, part of it is to allow them to get to places, and to keep up with adults.

Granted adult stegos could do with a better run so they don't gallop... xD

[barren zephyr]

well you don't want a T rex to be able to go 1000km to make it balanced you want some realisim in there

[cyan flame]

An adult, no. A juvie rex, I expect to go really fast honestly, since they kind of did in reality from what I know.

[barren zephyr]

I think they should go around 40km or so

maybe 35 is more accurate

You don't want it outrunning tenontos now that I think about it

[pulsar lake]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/401481371249541120/1065481069962473523
so what's wrong with my suggestion?

[barren zephyr]

I think making it quieter is a good idea for certain dinos, but carnos bite is pretty good imo

[jagged jewel]

What’s a juvie rex gonna do to a teno?

[rain valley]

@topaz pendant They do match and exist irl

[topaz pendant]

Oh np but still ingame they look very vibrant compared to the grass

[sage yew]

pray?

[agile roost]

lmao

[jagged jewel]

Exactly

[barren zephyr]

I'm talking about an adult rex not juvies

[sage yew]

and what's the matter?
Like should an high tier apex predator have an easy time to get there?

[jagged jewel]

Bro i’m literally agreeing with you

[jagged jewel]

The dude you replied to was talking about juvies

[barren zephyr]

Oh i read it wrong mb

But even still its a baby red it should have more stamina than the adult but less speed

[tall hearth]

Juvi rex should be faster than the adult. Not only is it smaller but it's got longer legs than the adult, comparing proportional body sizes. As it gets older it should slow down more and more.

[cyan flame]

Not in the case of a rex no.

[sage yew]

Depends on how a Rex juvi is supposed to survive. Is it meant to be depended on others? Is it social? Does it scavenge or hunt? How strong, fast or agile is it's prey?

[jagged jewel]

Not really

Juvie rex being fast is good for gameplay in a lot of ways

Think of it like deino, where the juvie is faster on land than the adult

It kinda needs to be, and also helps for its role in the ecosystem to change with its growth

[barren zephyr]

Im talking about the baby fresh spawn not sub

[jagged jewel]

fresh spawn baby also has proportionally long legs

[tall hearth]

Like freshly hatched?

[barren zephyr]

Not as big though

[jagged jewel]

bro juvie rex irl was almost as fast as carno

[barren zephyr]

Not hatched

[jagged jewel]

Why shouldn't a fresh spawn be faster than an adult though?

[tall hearth]

Yeah, fresh spawn juvi rex I imagine would still be somewhat quick for its size. I'd hope faster than the adult, even if it's just a bit so it's easier to survive.

As fast as carno? Probably not. I'd say a good speed for juvi rex could be between 35 and 42 kph. As it grows itll lose its speed. We dont need legacy juvi syndrome in which the juvies are a paid to grow because they're so slow and easy to run down and kill

[barren zephyr]

Because it makes no sense unless adult rexes are slow

[jagged jewel]

Of course adult rexes are slow lmao

[tall hearth]

Rex can have good speed at a lot of stages, because it isnt adult. It will still have to compete with the similar sized adults in every growth stage, so itll always be vulnerable.

[jagged jewel]

Never said it should be as fast as carno

Just irl it was somewhat close to other fast dinosaurs

[barren zephyr]

Slower than 30km? Doubt it

[jagged jewel]

the animation we see is a placeholder

[barren zephyr]

That'd be kinda lame if its that slow

[jagged jewel]

I can see it be somewhere from 26-30 km/h at full adult

Having juvies be same speed at fresh spawn isn't too unreal

[tall hearth]

I mean it's an apex, being slow makes sense for an animal as large as it is.

I'd say its speed should be similar to adult stegos tbh.

[jagged jewel]

juvie should be fast and agile, sub should still be fast but not as agile, and adult should be the slowest stage for obvious reasons

[pulsar lake]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/401481371249541120/1065657712152682607
wait what is this? I need an explanation lmao.

[tall hearth]

The person wants kill animations, which I'm all for

[jagged jewel]

Kill animations

Which are kinda planned-ish

[pulsar lake]

Is that a test? It looks kind of old

[tall hearth]

Like in theris concept art it shows it ripping a dilo in half, I want something like that to be in game.

That's not isle footage if that's what you mean

No idea what it's from tho

[jagged jewel]

it's fan made

[pulsar lake]

I feel like killing animations would have to be done in a way that doesn't cross the line of making too much like a fighting game. Maybe avoid that dramatic zoom-in

[jagged jewel]

Oh yeah, that video is just an example of the suggestion

[tall hearth]

Maybe very early sub should be somewhat quick, but once its middle sub it should start really slowing down. As it gets larger it still has to compete with even larger predators. While it may "outgrow" being threatened by allo, it should still fear things like Alberto or even sucho (if they're planned to be bigger than allo).

I don't feel like fights should be "even" considering it's still a growing animal. Like if it and an allo are the same weight, I feel the allo should have the upper hand, ever so slightly, since as an adult it has both peak stats and should be a master of its abilities too. Sub rex is not, so it would still have to tread lightly.

[jagged jewel]

Alberto is only slightly bigger than allo

by like 200 kg

But I agree

By sub i meant early sub, like 50-65%

[tall hearth]

Even though its bigger, in concept art Alberto is shown to be a threat to a stego. I'm assuming sub rex would be just as threatened by an alberto, if not more so.

Not only that, but animal sizes are always subject to change. So if the devs feel like alb is too small, they'll give it a size and/or a weight boost.

[jagged jewel]

Concept art doesn't represent any sense of balance.

[tall hearth]

I'm aware

[jagged jewel]

I doubt they'll boost alberto's size, considering how it doesn't really need it

[tall hearth]

This is all speculative, so why not use concept art as a base of speculation? They aren't in game so it's a anyones guess as to what happens till then

[jagged jewel]

Yeah, based on concept size, it's like 3t

Which, as I said, is 200 kg bigger than isle allo

50-65% rex should def be one of the fastest if not the fastest stage of its growth

with a lower agility than the juveniles

[sage yew]

I kinda like to abandon the idea, that species and/or different growth
stages need to be balanced to each other. Rather to make them
suited for the environment, where they're supposed to thrive in.

I totally understand the desire to approach a balanced experience,
mainly because there are no established environments, created by a
concept of ecosystems.
You go to fight hunt, or flee however you can and therefore should
the game be balanced, as every player is in a way at the same height
as you. But assuming that over time, niches will be developed in
which any species can thrive in, I would like to approach the
balancing in such a way, that species are able to fulfil their roles.

My approach is, not to balance the playables, but to balance the
players. In a sense of how difficult it is, to go through every
growth step.

For example, assuming a sort of dynamic difficulty system:
High Tier Apex Predators
9 out of 10 Juvis won't make it to Sub
9 out of 10 Subs don't make it to Adult

Mid Tier Predators
6 out of 10 Juvis won't make it to Sub
6 out of 10 Subs don't make it to Adult

Low Tier Predators
3 out of 10 Juvis won't make it to Sub
3 out of 10 Subs don't make it to Adult

[jagged jewel]

I think those numbers mean nothing and are more dependent on player skill

I do think that the skill floor for growing a dinosaur should depend on the dinosaur itself, and not be generalized into tiers

Because naturally each tier is going to have outliers

[sage yew]

A player with 100% skill, should not have necessarily the same balanced experience, with low tier and high tier playables. As playing the high tiers, compared to low tiers, would be much more beneficial in a logical term. Demographic distributions of species should be kept in mind instead.

[white comet]

How should I improve it then? Should the camera not be affected by the animation?

[zinc idol]

Bro said carnos have no reason to be faster than a utah 💀

[vital plover]

Sure, they would look nice. But if they take several seconds to complete and can't be cancelled, they make you vulnerable to other attacks. This can lead to a conga line of death. 😂

In AVP3 the finishers had exactly this problem and so most people avoided them.

[pulsar lake]

Yeah that’s what I was suggesting

[white comet]

So still being able to rotate it 360 while executing?

[pulsar lake]

Yeah like any other attack

[white comet]

Ok thanks

[jagged jewel]

That's not what I'm saying

I said that the "1 out of 10 juvies make it to sub" number means nothing when very skilled players can just learn the main strategy to grow and metagame

I agree with higher skill floors and ceilings depending on the certain dino, but what i'm saying is generalizing to tiers or even saying the amount of players that are gonna make it to a stage of growth is a pretty weird way of saying that some dinos should be harder than others

I have no idea what you mean by demographic distributions lmao

[grave dagger]

@sand hinge I recommend growing ptera, learning the map then playing the game, or use vulnona as a map

[reef nacelle]

^ as above. Also, from the pics you died to a stego, carno and Deino, all adults. You CAN avoid all of those as babies. Try not making noise, dont 1 call or anything, just uses the bushes and avoid contact with adult anything until you are sub or older. That is generally as easy as it sounds, especially for a baby deino and utah!

[sand hinge]

i was doing all that

ptera is like the only safe dino for me to play as

[sly lotus]

Easily avoidable as a youngling. Just avoid open fields or if you're playing as a young Deino and see a bigger Deino, then just run up in the bushes and hide. Surviving isn't supposed to be a walk in the park.

[faint folio]

Idk what time zone you're in, but if you'd like I could show you some tricks this weekend to growing to adult safely? What dinos would you like to play?

[sage yew]

What a demographic distribution is, you look it better up for yourself, if that's the question. Or maybe ask a bit more specific, so I can actually answer.

[jagged jewel]

I'm asking what you meant in the context of the phrase you said

[barren zephyr]

when i have gtx 1660 super i can play without lag?

[ionic pike]

idk what to tell you bro. turn ur volume up or something idfk.💀

[ionic pike]

nope. thats what i have and it lags.

[barren zephyr]

how many fps for low settings?

[robust dome]

@sand lantern Cera ?

[sand lantern]

More than one carni

[robust dome]

Next dino after cera is galli but then we get ovi and herrera and dilo, they look very fun (and kentro and maggy) all of this in the span of years prolly but still

[sand lantern]

I just want to see the mid tier roster

[uneven mist]

With “mid tiers” I thought he meant stuff like allo and Alberto which would be an awful decision with the current roster

[rare fractal]

yeah both just kinda....win

[icy flare]

how u know the order ?

[tall hearth]

They don't.

[robust dome]

cera is so hyped up it is gonna come before/same time as galli, for the rest I don't know I just said the names that came to mind, ovi has the most checkamrks ready tho

[tall hearth]

There isnt a known order. Only dino we know is "next" is troodon in u6.5

[robust dome]

hope beipi also comes out with troodon

[ionic pike]

not sure abt low but at mid i get 30-45

[paper crag]

im getting 9 but that my be due to my location and i can still play just fine

[proud coral]

Any particular reason some dislike the idea of camouflaging Rugops? I'm all ears.

[pulsar lake]

I think it’s a cool idea, but I’m not too sure about how viable it would be. I don’t think it should be as elaborate as presetting skins, though. Maybe simple color changing based on surroundings. Im not familiar with how this would work in the game, though.

[proud coral]

I think on a super horrid excuse for a map poorly designed map like Spiro that has essentially no biome variety, yeah it'd be pretty bad. <:P However, Gateway is said to have actually distinct biomes for once So I feel on good maps maps like Gateway, it'd be more useful since you could adapt to different environments easier.

[limber hull]

@ripe ocean hard disagree with the current state of pachy being balanced, it only seems that way because it's in an ecosystem of equally overpowered animals

the fact that this animal can stunlock a tenonto, something over 3x its size, to death, with absolutely no counterplay, is sheer absurdism

and the fact that this small animal can be scarier to carno, a small game hunter, than a tenonto, which is of near equal size to the carno, is utterly absurd

omniraptor is in a far more balanced place atm, the issue is every other animal (besides tenonto) is either never used, or insanely strong

U5.5 omni was stupidly broken and entirely dominant

[barren jay]

Yeah they just got to fix some things with those op ones and make other dinos more entertaining to use and omni will be more balanced

[ripe ocean]

I can see what you mean actually. Their stuns are overpowering. Carnos kill them easier now it feels like, but omnis are just awful in that matchup and imo omni is unplayable lol unless you want to hunt ai and birds

[limber hull]

Omni shouldn't really be beating pachies tho, they're designed to hard counter omnis

The fact that pachys so easily deal with carnos and tenos, though, I have a major issue with

[barren jay]

@amber vigil yeah they could add a fertility perk for update 7 that gives u advantages from nesting

[limber hull]

@topaz pendant legacy cerato was grossly oversized, this cerato is likely smaller than both carno and teno

cera will likely range around the 1-1.3 ton mark in weight

[topaz pendant]

k

[topaz pendant]

Would a 1-1.3 ton animal still be able to jump on 2 legs ?

[limber hull]

difficult to say when we have nothing in the style of therapods in current day, which would've had a lot more power behind their legs

also if a 450/500kg animal can jump as high as it can in The Isle, there is literally zero reason a 1 ton animal couldn't jump a bit

[topaz pendant]

Ah okay

[zinc idol]

@sand hinge that’s literally the point of a survival game

Just hunt animals that you can kill, kill a boar as a baby utah, it’s really easy, just let it bleed

[fringe sundial]

@topaz granite heyo. So.. i cant do a repy in there so I figured we could discuss in here. When I mentioned a debuff and a buff, I didnt mean to add both at once. that would be awful. I meant one or the other, just spitballing options. I would rather a canni get a small buff in health or stamina just because it would hopefully help make more people canni. you wouldnt have to, but it would be something to just dangle in front of them and hopefully bring about a better pop control solution. At least until Deino has other predators. So I dont disagree with you that a buff would be the better option. Again, just throwing out two different ideas that might help.
Another thing that a friend of mine mentioned was lowering the long hunger drain. while yes its an ambush predator, there is always deino in the rivers. So lowering the food might make people have to patrol and control an area for food. And if you could control the most populated areas, you stand a better chance of catching drinking prey vs living on deinos. I think that might be another thing to at least test in a public build where the game is more natural.
Also def rolling back that weight scaling. 46% deino should still fear adults. Being able to lunge them was the key there. If they were paying attention, they could easily escape onto land. But if they're being too trusting, or not paying attention, they could still be lunged upwards of 70 ish % before. which was perfect. I could easily kill subs that were not paying attention while the smart ones got away to continue their growing. That was great. If you add in a buff to incentivize players to canni, it will hopefully decrease the population and actually make an apex harder to grow. Im down for other suggestions, this is just the one that was bouncing around in hy own head. either way, we can all agree that deino is kinda out of control this patch. And if nothing changes, we will have dead maps. Gateway is also a thing. not sure what that will do.

This also comes from a place of love. I adore deino gameplay. I just want it to be better. there is no hate here for the playable.

[topaz granite]

about bigger deino's being able to easily kill 47% is still a thing from my experience got killed by one multiple times

but the best solution to balance out deino's is adding in this case a predator like the spino or byronix (sorry i know i butchered its name) those 2 specialized on fish from occasion they did eat something else out of desperation and what not, but they would often be in confrontation with large crocs (if i'm not mistaken spino often fought had to fight sarco's) which would give both the insentive to fight eachother for resources and food but would not be each other primary food source. than you get a fine balance for the deino population because nothing really enters their territory unless they have a death wish with the current roster

and with how high the change of cannibalisme is for the full growns as they have shown to fall back to in times of a food shortage

[sage yew]

A genuine question:
What actually defines or impacts the difficulties in The Isle (Evrima)?

In a meaning of looking less on the quirks of the current development stage, but in foresight of the final game.

[left nacelle]

Are you asking what will make the game difficult?

[elder fog]

Hey, ive been gone for a bit, but i can’t seem to find the announcement for the Gateway map? Where could I find the post or stream that first announces it?

[fringe sundial]

I never get killed by other deino at a smaller size. If anything comes even into range im already on land. even at a small size you can outrun adults. so that sounds more like needing to pay attention and less like bigger deinos easily doing so. If you get on land you get away. But if you get lunged, you're dead. same for sizes up until 4 tons. If they get on land, an adult isnt going to kill them. they simply cant keep up. it becomes tricky if you have more than one chasing you. one can always go back to the water and wait for you.
I dont think adding other predators is going to fix things either. Deino is more aquatic vs semi aquatic. I have a feeling it will be a faster swimmer than the spino or bary. they'll likely be more geared towards younger deino vs adults. Especially with elders since its rumored that deino elder will be 12 tons.. Scary thought. So im not sure that they'll be as effective. Thats going into speculation on how things will be later. As of right now, this would fix the current situation with deino. we wont be seeing the others for a long long time still yet.

also sorry for a late reply xD im cooking

[left nacelle]

There wasn't much of a "first" announcement iirc. The map was revealed a while ago but we didn't know what it was called till like August

This might be the first message that told us the name? I'm unsure #isle-discussion message

[sage yew]

In short? Yes.

[left nacelle]

Well for the dinos, humans will add a lot of difficulty. Since a well armed human could be more dangerous than an apex. And tribals will be strong too but we don't know much about them

And for humans the difficulty is obvious

[obsidian jetty]

I honestly hope that's as far from the truth as it can get, because that's the description of a 3 faction deathmatch right there xD

[left nacelle]

Well it's not that simple

A well armed human can be dangerous, but they'll also have limited ammo. So a human who goes around shooting everything on sight isn't gonna last long. Especially because a gunshot can essentially be a dinner bell for larger animals

Humans also won't be eating dinos so they don't have much reason to kill dinos outside of self defense

[obsidian jetty]

why shouldn't they eat dinos? We're omnivores, remember?

[left nacelle]

Yes but the devs have said the dino meat is bad for them. Likely a lore reason

I don't see why humans wouldn't be able to eat the regular animals tho

[obsidian jetty]

either way, if "the others" are the only thing making it difficult it's still just a 3 faction deathmatch and not a survival ^^

[left nacelle]

Not really. By that logic, Rust is a deathmatch game and not a survival game

A deathmatch game has the goal of killing as many people as possible. A survival game has the goal of surviving and not dying

Primal Carnage is a deathmatch, ARK is survival

[tall hearth]

And with elder and a perk system people are going to want to survive and pass on by natural death rather than fighting to the death.

[left nacelle]

^^^

Plus there are other things that'll add difficulty. Like weather and the environment itself

[obsidian jetty]

ah, there we go. Gotta admit I never played Rust (precisely because it feels more like a deathmatch than a survival), so I can't comment on that one. But yes, the elder and perk stuff will probably lead to people wanting to survive and things (other than the other people) should try to stop them from doing that...in my opinion at least.

[left nacelle]

Yeah the devs are working on ways to stop people from just fighting

And the Elder system will likely help with that a bit

[obsidian jetty]

well tbf you can't really stop people from fighting in a game where at least half the people are the only viable source of food for the other half, but I genuinely hope we're gonna see things like poisonous plants or infections just to make stuff a little more difficult for everyone and distract people from fighting for no reason. 😉

[sage yew]

only if every faction member is cooperating with each other.
Just like Animals are divided by carnivores and berbivores, and also by species, can be humans also be divided in some manner, like different interests or even competition.

I hardly can imagine how a 3 party deathmatch should evolve from this.

[sage yew]

Well, actually the answer to my question is in general kinda obvious. But I wanted to know, where people expect to encounter their difficulties in their gameplay loop, too gain a better insight what people want or rather not

or how people even view the concept of difficulty?

[obsidian jetty]

Well, people are always gonna people...and I never said that it was a "team deathmatch" 😉

But all jokes aside, for me the answer to your question is easy. I'd like the game to try and kill me. Leeches in the swamp I need to get off me or risk catching something worse (if I'm not made for living there that is), plants that cause funny things when I touch them, severe injuries getting infected if ignored, droughts or floods ruining my day...just a lot of...inconveniences (or things to watch out for) breaking the boring cycle of eating and waiting to get hungry again.

One issue I have with most survival games out there is that they really only deserve the tag "survival" for the first few hours of playing. After that you have a base you're safe in, a weapon to onetap everything with and food for years, so you don't have to worry at all anymore because you can only die when you do something extremely stupid.

[left nacelle]

@flint plinth A better scarring system is already planned. It was supposed to come in the gore update but had to be delayed

[flint plinth]

A better visual scarring system is just a difference in the artwork no? Is that including the misleading amount of blood around the damaged players screen as well? Do you know?

[left nacelle]

It's dynamic scarring. So the type of scar would be determined by the type of attack and the location of the scar would be determine by the point of impact. Plus those pics are from July and it's likely the system has become more complex since then

[flint plinth]

That’s pretty neat, ig mine is more of a UI suggestion then.

[left nacelle]

But the blood around the screen thing isn't an issue imo, it's just something you gotta get used to. Plus you can see your health bar on the tab screen

I do get what you mean tho

[icy lion]

Apparently, Punch has said that an increase in complexity/scope is the reason why it couldn't make it in update 6's release

[left nacelle]

Yeah that's what i thought

[flint plinth]

Oh? That’s cool. Looking forward to how it looks in the future.

[left nacelle]

I should also mention a UI overhaul will be coming eventually so the current hurt effect will most likely be changed

[flint plinth]

Hm. Hopefully, that’s honestly one of my biggest problems with Evrima tbh, despite it being such a small problem. I played a lot of apexes so I was fighting a lot. I relied a lot in the different screens to make decisions during my fights.

[left nacelle]

Yeah it's something you just gotta get used to for now. Just remember that your screen usually makes you look worse than you really are

[flint plinth]

Though I have to admit, I do enjoy the game rn. It’s fun, this is just one of the quality of life things I hope for in the future ig.

[flint plinth]

Yeah.

[burnt bone]

Personally at least, difficulty isn’t something easily measured. Best way I could measure it would be in like % of players that reach adult, average life span, or even amount of dangers. All of these measurements have pros and cons though, such as measuring amount of issues doesn’t account for some issues causing more difficulty. So there’s not really a full definition.

Plus, most the difficulty in the isle is player driven, and thus extremely volatile. If everyone else plays Rex, then surviving as basically anything is extremely difficult. If everyone has a skill issue, then the game can become incredibly easy. However, some pve elements can make the game more difficult, like weather and migrations, but they arr nothing compared to player interaction and generally are there to force it.

[sage yew]

@obsidian jetty @burnt bone
Thanks for your answers. Currently I'm thinking, how difficulty
could be used to shape the experience, but how do you
implement difficulty?

Yesterday I had the following idea:
*High Tier Apex Predators
9 out of 10 Juvis won't make it to Sub
9 out of 10 Subs don't make it to Adult

Mid Tier Predators
6 out of 10 Juvis won't make it to Sub
6 out of 10 Subs don't make it to Adult

Low Tier Predators
3 out of 10 Juvis won't make it to Sub
3 out of 10 Subs don't make it to Adult*

Even tho the solution to this seemed easy at first, after I started
typing it just became clear that I have absolutely no idea of how it
should actually work.

The use of natural filters should work to prevent
species-inflation. Especially in the high tier apex realm.
Assuming that a server gets populated with 100 juvi rex, because it's
the new meta - or whatever - the prediction should be, that
estimated only 1% of them would actually reach the end of their
growth cycle. Obviously all made in such a way, that the possibilities
for lower tiers, would be much higher. Basically a self balancing
system. 99% of the server, would become populated with other species,
to fill in that "niche".

Well, difficulty could be such a natural filter. But how is
difficulty actually supposed to look like? Made in such a way, that it
exhibits different kind of pressure, on species in different growth
steps?

Any idea?

[burnt bone]

The main issue is that, as I said, most the difficulty comes from other players. This makes it highly variable and near impossible to control. You may run into a carno that wipes out entire Omni packs often. Or that carno may be absolutely terrified of omnis and just runs away. So there isn’t a way to set a finite difficulty in this game without it being completely unfair to someone. The main way I could see them making larger dinos more difficult to grow is by making them need to fend for themselves and actually interact with people more often. Maybe they need fresh kills constantly rather than scavenging? Maybe they are cannibalistic so you can’t rely on others? There’s plenty of things to do for each and every dino, and each one will get affected by changes differently.

[sage yew]

It would be interesting to know, which values are in playables inherent. I usually just think of speed, strength and agility, but there is way more to this, like turning radius, acceleration, HP and so on.

[obsidian jetty]

well the easiest way, and the one that's "already in the game", obviously is...food. It should be really difficult to sustain an apex, let alone hordes of them, the bigger they get, the harder to sustain. So that's one of the filters.

Another, as I said, could be things like infections and diseases either from parasites or wounds or whatever, or just the environment changing through things like droughts or floods (even tho the migration system kinda plays into that as well, as your prey will be moving around), cutting you off from your food sources or forcing you to migrate.

But yes, as Rapdex said, the players are kinda a wildcard in all of this, because the "difficulty level" they represent can be very different between servers or even just based on the current mood of the people online at the time.

[sage yew]

Even the creative mind of humans, is in an enclosed environment somewhat predictable - totally ignoring some outliers for the sake of it.

But lets say players are a variable difficulty, while food is a static one and hunger-drain in mind, easily predictable and could act compensating for the variety of players.

But how do you regulate food supply, if players are the food themselves. Isn't growth here the regulating factor, of how much food is available?

5 dead adults, deliver more food, then 5 juvis - for example. Then you need to modulate demographics(?) to alter food availability?

[obsidian jetty]

Well that's...kinda where the issue is. You can't really, apart from ai obviously, which should be absolutely worthless for any apex above juvi (and yes, I am aware of the fact that dino ai probably is going to be a thing...yuck...but I'll ignore those for now). Everything after that unfortunately depends on balancing and people playing the stuff you need (and are able to hunt)...and people not shooting themselves in the foot by wiping out entire herds when one of them would do, as well as people not chasing down whoever killed one of them for food, cuz revenge...but yeah, probably never gonna happen 😄

[sage yew]

just thinking about it drives me totally mad

[obsidian jetty]

I actually had the most ridiculous of thoughts the other day...using humans for population control. Like...if there were "too many" adult Rexes (or whatever) on a server at a given time, a "world event" would be triggered that gave the humans a mission to kill an adult Rex and the first person to do it would receive a loot drop (ammo, bandages....dunno, something fancy). That might even deter humans from killing for sport because killing stuff without that mission active would lead to that event never being triggered and thus nobody ever getting the fancy loot. Oh and of course it might be easier for other humans to take care of the one who got the loot than the rex...
anyway tho...as it's kinda hard to know what them humans are even supposed to do in the game and how things are supposed to work (on any side for that matter), it's just...one of my many silly ideas at this point xD

[barren zephyr]

I really hope the game doesn't have quests or missions like that

that ruins the game

[obsidian jetty]

ye, it might

[sage yew]

maybe not like this, but a bounty system is not that bad tho. Limited ammunition could limit weaponry to self defence, but under certain criteria it becomes lucrative to actively hunt

[barren zephyr]

@bitter dove if a stego ever gets too close to the river bank, with a dieno the stego is either going to run or it'll die

you don't even have to be very skilled to do it, you just bite the head

[sage yew]

actually, water would indeed make tail slam useless: ever tried to hit something under water? It absorbs every impact

[barren zephyr]

It's a tail swing not a slam

Stego should be able to drink and get away without dying

[sage yew]

why?

[barren zephyr]

it's kinda dumb if once you have to drink you're dead

[sage yew]

oh no, what a nightmare

[faint folio]

I mean... They can't be drowned because they're too heavy to lunge, and they've enough health that they have time to back up if a deino tries to attack while drinking. I don't see disadvantaging a stego attacking an aquatic at a river being a huge deal

[barren zephyr]

It's not a huge deal, but that'd be hard to make right

For example a stego could sit in the water to fight another stego and that will make the stego on land do less damage while the stego in water would have the advantage

[bitter dove]

i never said stego should die when it goes for a drink, im talking about the stegos that will legit run into the water trying to fight deinos

[barren zephyr]

It's hard to do that without having players taking advantage to it

[sage yew]

I really can't follow your reasoning
why should a stego in water have an advantage?

not to mention why a stego should fight another one tho

[barren zephyr]

Because if you hit while you're in water you do less damage is what they want

[sage yew]

avoidable by differentiating between animals that are in- and __under__water?

[cyan flame]

Competition? We need more stegos fighting each other for good reasons I'd say.

[tall hearth]

Food scarcity, territory, someone being a total dingus, the player wants to fight.

Theres a lot of reasons

[tall hearth]

I've fought and killed players I've viewed as liabilities within the group. Whether they're too loud, not letting me eat, they've hit me while they're playing around and I'm not in the mood

[barren zephyr]

I totally agree

[barren zephyr]

Or just wanting to do it because you feel like it.

[tall hearth]

Yeah. Sometimes I'll do it just because its funny

[barren zephyr]

thats the reason I do it 40% of the time

[sage yew]

all fair and good, but it has little to nothing to do with his tail strike being nerfed inside waters 🤔

[barren zephyr]

I'm fine with that being nerfed if it's done properly

so it only happens when the tail is actually under the water

Or you'll get people using it to their advantage

[sage yew]

"if it's done properly"
that's the expectation

[tall hearth]

It's not really too much of a concern for me, as that's mainly a spiro issue. With the rivers not being very wide or deep it's easy for stegos to go "fishing" for crocs. With wider, deeper rivers on gateway I dont see this being too much of an issue. The stegos will probably have to cross the rivers more often, so crocs shouldn't be fighting them on riversides as often, if at all. The smartest croc move would be waiting for the stego(s) to start crossing before making a move

[barren zephyr]

It'd be cool the deeper you are in the water the faster you get water and if you're in the shallow parts you'll drink water slower

[tall hearth]

I'd like the less you move while submerged, the faster your water goes up.

[sage yew]

True. But independent of spiro it's mainly an issue of his tail being unable to interact with the terrain in general. Adjusting values to compensate for waters shouldn't be an issue, once proper collisions are a thing

[tall hearth]

Which the devs are looking into to fix. It's not very fair if a stego can hit you while you're behind a log or a tree or, in the future, a human hanging out in a building the stego cant physically enter. Itll get fixed, we just gotta wait.

[sage yew]

can't wait for it, this would make fighting a stego so much more interesting

[faint folio]

If they hit me while playing around, they get a few warnings. Do it again, I take them to the brink but don't kill. One more time? They just got a free respawn.

But in general someone being a jerk makes it a lot more likely I'm gonna fight and kill them

[tall hearth]

Stegos would have a hard time fighting in forests then, which is a good thing if they're expected to be plains animals. That's good for balance, as stegos should have situations they have to plan for beforehand. Take the risky shortcut thru the woods and risk a predator finding me, or follow the wider path that takes longer?

[sage yew]

exactly

than there are only Jerks to take care of. But I attribute it mostly to the lack of content and some dudes becoming bored

[cyan flame]

When it actually works to put your head against a tree and the carno can't bite it from the other side of the tree. It'll be nice when it works for both sides!

[cursive phoenix]

DIscussion: Driving Monorail should have passenger and flat cargo railcars which stops at some stops. Players can walk onto the flat railcar and travel faster thru the map.

[barren jay]

What would the devs do to stop dino's from getting in

[cursive phoenix]

why would they? smaller dinos can go into the passenger railcars, great. safe from the apex on the flat cargo railcar

[barren jay]

People wouldn't find it fair if the smaller dinosaurs with faster speeds and higher Stam had another way to move faster around the map

[cursive phoenix]

ok then doors dont open. only flat railcar

[barren jay]

I feel if Utah can't get in it's fine

[cursive phoenix]

ya

[barren jay]

Like with Ptera and Hypsi that wouldn't be a problem

[cursive phoenix]

but i dont see the issue with utah having more traveling benefits?

its not like they will abuse that system and kill everything on the whole map with a 20 utah group lol, left right, left right, switch map sides all the time and kill everything lol

but once bigger dinos are there, mid and high tier will control the train stops

so it wont be able to be abused by 20 utah group traveling very fast and killing everything

[barren jay]

It might make it way easier to find food, like if the area they r in has no ppl they could just ride the train somewhere else

[cursive phoenix]

isn tthat good ?

[barren jay]

Depends on how much easier it is

[cursive phoenix]

the map is simply too big for not drivin with railcar 😄

[barren jay]

But it would be good for other dinosaurs if they just wait by the stops for them
It'd give it some risk

Like if u r starving it'd be a last resort to find food

[cursive phoenix]

everybody can use the train. so everbody benefits. very fair.

[barren jay]

Yeah

[cursive phoenix]

acro on railcar, ambush, waiting for next stop XD food food. can be evaded by a longer train, so if acro is in railcar 2, u just go in car 6. if youre small dino u go into passenger car, if not... no need to be scared of acro.

[barren jay]

Lol

[sage yew]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/TR-a.JPG
put these things around exit stops. Too tall to jump over and get inside, but humans can shoot through

[barren jay]

I feel like even if only things as big as Utah were able to ride it would benefit others

[cursive phoenix]

which is good?

[barren jay]

Yeah

It seems like it would be balanced

[cursive phoenix]

why is there no vote button in my feedback in #general-feedback

[barren jay]

Idk bot not working

[sage yew]

<@&933486433342222376>general-feedback has it's issues again

[cursive phoenix]

so not needed. it works on legacy too. camping is a thing there. and its not destroying agmeplay.

landbridge is nice for camping. fun.

[sage yew]

highly doubt anything actually worked on legacy tho

[cursive phoenix]

huh? its perfect.

🔴 Discussion: Ptera can eat food between apex' teeth for full diet. Apex gets benefits from this. faster stamina recovery.

[barren jay]

Wdym by stamina recovery

Like for while it's cleaning it's teeth?

[cursive phoenix]

or something like that

[barren jay]

What stops it from chomping it if it was full Stam before

[cursive phoenix]

too many questions. XD its just a good IdEa

[barren jay]

It'd prob have to be something else

[barren jay]

Yeah

Maybe if it improved their scent

[cursive phoenix]

imagine having a hygiene status lol. for better recovery and wellbeing

[barren jay]

Lol

[cursive phoenix]

deino duck dino: i poop where i eat. my hygiene is worst.

[barren jay]

Something that'd be cool is fertility perk for the perk system

Like nest faster and have more egg space

[sage yew]

Instead of stamina an well-being meter could be filled, with a variety of possible benefits

[barren jay]

Mhm

[cursive phoenix]

i dont care. i just want easy life as bird. 😉

[sage yew]

at least the concept of mutual relationships is a good idea

[barren jay]

Mhm

[quick maple]

Noticed Gateway isn't on the Trello (guess we can't expect to get it then lol), but in all seriousness is there any idea from anyone on when this thing will come out?

[sage yew]

soon™️

[barren zephyr]

My expectation is 6.5

[quick maple]

Do we have any idea when 6.5 will be? Before spring break, or is that too optimistic.

[barren zephyr]

This is my theory, Idk if it's true tho

Troodon, Venom, Beipia, and gateway is what I think is coming in 6.5 and more. I expect it to release within 2 months at most

[sage yew]

Alright, I gonna take the bets, 20 bucks minimum

[cinder fossil]

.5 updates always come quite fast, but I seriously doubt gateway would be included in it.

[barren zephyr]

I don't

[cinder fossil]

I mean, that’s ok I’m just saying that I wouldn’t get your hopes up lol

[barren zephyr]

I'm pretty sure the devs were trying to push out gateway and the migration system in U6 but ran out of time

[barren zephyr]

Devs intention was to bring the migration system with U6 but they said they wouldn't release the migration system on spiro, so that's why I think it's releasing with 6.5

[cinder fossil]

It’s a good possibility

[limber hull]

they want gateway out with the UE5 port, so unless migrations, gateway, troodon, venom and UE5 are all planned for 6.5, I doubt it

[barren zephyr]

I can dream, can't I?

[barren zephyr]

@frigid swan If i'm not mistaken, Global chat will be a thing for unofficial servers that enable it

[frigid swan]

Yeah but I like officials. I don't care about global

[barren zephyr]

Well maybe make local herbivore chat for only certain herbivores

[frigid swan]

why you think only certain herbivores?

[barren zephyr]

Because devs don't want all herbivores grouping together

[frigid swan]

ah that makes sense

[limber hull]

probably not happening

[barren zephyr]

More than likely it won't, but if it did it'd probably be like that

[pulsar lake]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/401481371249541120/106619108980503762
I don't think it would be good to make a lot of powerful herbivores into omnivores, because it would encourage them to actively hunt, which is not a good playstyle for an animal that's meant to be on the defensive. I think it's viable with Beipi and maybe Ava because they're at least small and only capable of hunting animals smaller than them.

[hasty dagger]

They should actively hunt

[pulsar lake]

They weren't hunters, though, nor are they built for hunting.

Their horns show that they are more defensive animals

[barren jay]

The Isle isn't going for realistic and actively hunting is funner

[pulsar lake]

It's not supposed to be funny and it's less fun and immersive when it's "funny"

[pulsar lake]

Isn't that exactly what it's going for in contrast of other dinosaur games like BoB and PoT?

[barren jay]

I said funner not funnier

[pulsar lake]

oh..

This is somewhat embarassing

but I still stand by what I said (minus the "funnier" part)

[barren jay]

If they find a way to make herbivores more interesting to play then I agree

[limber hull]

having over 50% of the roster actively hunting each other sounds super lame imho

[barren jay]

Wouldn't have to be 50% just the smaller ones

People would not be an ava if all it could do was go into a dryo burrow

[limber hull]

I mean, nothing at all suggested ava was even an omnivore

[barren jay]

I like the idea of it being an aggressive little jerk to things it's size and smaller

[limber hull]

As far as we know, all it does is trash nests and steal burrows, it doesn't actually eat eggs or meat

Oh yea, I love ava as a complete jackass animal

[pulsar lake]

being an aggressive jerk is different from active hunting, which is something very unfitting

[limber hull]

like pachy