general-feedback-discussion

[azure bolt]

players are already cautious and paranoid in this game, adding another reason to be cautious around other carnivores is good

i just dont want rules on official servers in a nature sim

[lapis swallow]

A non abusable, not annoying proximity debuff is not simple lol. But if they can make a nonabusable, not annoying proximity debuff work, im in for it

[azure bolt]

simple addition didnt say the debuff system had to be simple too

[lucid mauve]

No mixpacking, should work. Its not really a hard rule to follow. If you mixpack, your not surviving your thriving.

[azure bolt]

if we make it a rule, that means theres grey areas, everythings a case-by-case, everything has to be monitored more closely
or just discourage it via in-game mechanics

[sage yew]

It requires an extended ruleset for a proximity buff to work out properly

Things like, distance, duration and species needs to be taken into account. Also different players and other factors, like delays and the usage of abuse, like walking every so often away to deplete it

[lucid mauve]

yea true, but you prob take away 90% of the mixpackers. Nothing will be a 100% just like every rule in the world lol : P

[azure bolt]

i dislike the idea of rules in a nature sim that is, in its own words, "kill or be killed"

the mechanics in-game are already great at making gameplay naturally seem like it could be in a Nature Documentary
id prefer a bit of effort be put into this to aid in the immersion, as opposed to a rule thats ultimately going to be more effort for the team long-term than the addition and tweaking of 1 mechanic

[urban flax]

The Isle is nowhere near being a nature sim but yeah

[sage yew]

I would like to make a brainstorming to figure out how rules on a proximity buff mechanics should look like, to make it work

salvation by administration just sounds like a logistical nightmare

[urban flax]

This already happened dozens of times
No good solution was ever found

[sage yew]

how was your experience with it?

[urban flax]

It's tiring and redundant to rethink about the same things over and over and repeat the same things to different people

[azure bolt]

was a percent-based gauge that was tweaked per species (to take into account their range of attacks and hunting patterns) as well as the gauge not filling during combat or stalking moments - was that one of the solutions tried?

[urban flax]

Every rule you make, hatever you come up ith creates a new problem. Not only because of potential abuse, but because the more rules you add, the less effective it becomes at preventing mixpackers and the more annoying it becomes for people.

[sage yew]

oh, you've meant the discussion, alright. Thought of proximity buffs.
but I agree, as I had never a good conversation on this topic here

[azure bolt]

it seems ideal. if anyone wants to mixpack in spite of this system it would be far more effort - and require far more unspoken teamwork - to pull off
making it suboptimal

[sage yew]

every mechanics needs it's rule when and how to apply, I think we view it from different perspectives here

Rules are the basics behind every mechanic

[urban flax]

I also stand by the opinion that in a videogame, everything has to be logical and make sense. If you decide there is a mechanic that makes animals lose calories faster when near other species, fine. As long as it can be logically explained.

[urban flax]

And rules always have to be as simple as possible, otherwise they end up cramping themselves up

[azure bolt]

this is logical and makes sense. nearby other species that you could be eating right now? hungry.
thats the logical basis for this potential mechanic

[sage yew]

I came up with the "well being" explenation, as a carno shouldn feel well, while roaming around with a stego for hours

[urban flax]

The thing is
It shouldn't make you die of starvation faster

[azure bolt]

and yet its a video game, and hunger in real life is far more complicated than just 1 hunger bar that depletes at the same rate every time.
we have to make exceptions to keep the game running smoothly

[lapis swallow]

If you want a mechanic you would need to take a lot of things into consideration. When does the debuff for certain species kick in? What about the herrera that chills in the trees, unseen by anybody and it doesnt want to move because of the great ambush spot that it wont give up? What about a pack making a huge kill and thus they are staying for a while, but a ptera hangs on a tree above it and is afk? Its just so much stuff

[sage yew]

the effects are a different topic
it could effect speed, blood regeneration or maybe work in visuals, or auditory, but such things would come at the end of the discussion

[urban flax]

And the problem I see with that is that, in the end, we, the players, are the dinos' brains. If I'm playing carno and I feel perfectly at ease sitting in the middle of a megapack of rexes, there's no reason my dino shouldn't feel the same way. Especially in a horror game, when the goal is to make the player feel genuine fear or anguish at the sight of dangerous situations.

[sage yew]

that's the same reason, why game mechanics needs to take place, where human intelligence can bypass or exploit such things

[azure bolt]

horror games work to scare the player
this gameplay style works to be immersive for your dino that youre playing

thats like saying the player wont get hungry looking at raw meat so why should the dino

[urban flax]

Well if the huyman mind bypasses the horror from your horror game then it's a bad horror game

[azure bolt]

because its only for the human mind

[lapis swallow]

The point is, why should you make a player sustain forced emotions of your dino that you are controlling

[azure bolt]

we're simulating dinosaur lives, not human lives

[urban flax]

We're simulating genetically-engineered dinos with human minds inside of them

Old lore but still

[lapis swallow]

But do you feel scared as ptera when you fly in on a megapack of carnos to troll them. If emotions have to be taken into account, this needs too

[azure bolt]

^

[sage yew]

oh common, lore has nothing to do with this now
it's about gameplay mechanics

[urban flax]

It's normal that I have to abide by my dino's hunger because it's a physical thing, and it's a normal part of survival. A dino cannot survive without food, no matter how smart or confident I am. But I don't want to be forced to roleplay as a stupid animal when I'm trying to enjoy a videogame.

[urban flax]

It does
Gameplay and lore are tied in a game
Hades is the perfect example of how it should be done

[lapis swallow]

This. A normal ptera would not get excited when it sees a 1.8 ton predator that it can annoy the duck of (yes, I do that).

[azure bolt]

youre not roleplaying if its a mechanic that makes your dino more hungry when theyve been sniffing the same stego for the past 2 hours

[sage yew]

no, you need to view it seperatly, or otherwise you can enforce everything by saying it's "lore"

[lapis swallow]

Thats appetite, its something different

[sage yew]

a good game is not defined by your possibilities, but of restrictions in the right places

[azure bolt]

gameplay and lore are obviously tied but dont have to be strictly based on each other.

[urban flax]

That's the point...
Good lore serves gameplay. It allows interesting mechanics while retaining player's immersion.

[sage yew]

okay, but what does this have to do with mixpacking braking balance

[azure bolt]

in dark souls when you kill an npc or a boss they dont respawn. thats a gameplay mechanic. when you die, you respawn. thats a gameplay mechanic

if we were accounting for lore, the games would be worse because not all gameplay mechanics Must abide by the lore

[urban flax]

The conversation drifted off
I was talking about the fact there should be no such thing as a mechanic that enforces emotions or feelings upon the player in this game

[azure bolt]

some games can mix lore and gameplay 100% of the way. not all games can nor should they have to.

[lapis swallow]

But the "human minds inside of dinos" seems pretty big

[sage yew]

you have two options I see here

1. you trust the playerbase to play like intended
2. you use game mechanics to motivate players to avoid, or do things for their benefits

[azure bolt]

what does it even matter? human mind or not, they still get hungry, they still sense prey and chase it down to eat it, they still get thirsty and have to drink

[urban flax]

You confuse the need for food and thoughts

[azure bolt]

how is getting hungry naturally somehow different from getting hungry by proximity to prey? its still hunger

[lapis swallow]

But they will annoy people knowing fully they cant die (ptera annoying carnos)

[azure bolt]

yes you cant erase all human gameplay styles from the game

but adding a mechanic to discourage mixpacking - is that really so bad

is discouraging mixpacking by adding a "im feelin hungry lookin at all this meat walking around" mechanic really so gameplay shattering

[lapis swallow]

No, but a proximity debuff will be abusable unless you spend months coding and playtesting it

[azure bolt]

so?

[sage yew]

such a emotional topic needs moderation
has anyone a problem if I ask a moderator to help?

As oppinions and comments and topics are currently all over the place and I'm not able to keep up with all the talk. Duno, what you guys think?

[azure bolt]

let them work on it then lol

nobodys asking for a solution tomorrow

[lapis swallow]

Its without insults and everybody brings arguments

[azure bolt]

no, disagreement =/= need for moderation

[sage yew]

or can we at least agree on talking about the same thing?

[azure bolt]

no

[lapis swallow]

No

[azure bolt]

if we get to talking about another topic of gameplay then thats how the conversation is going to go

[lucid mauve]

But it will be tons of community servers with this, no mixpacking.

[sage yew]

fine, I need to go for groceries anyway

[azure bolt]

what

[lucid mauve]

Community servers, if you dont like mixpacking as i do. There will be servers who have those rules.

Some with very little rules and some with more rules

[azure bolt]

oh i dont care about mixpacking im just discussing a solution to it because players see it as a problem

[sage yew]

Rules are only needed, where gameplay mechanics don't work or are not implemented at all

[lucid mauve]

Thats like saying ark is only pvp so we remove ark pve. And you loose half the playerbase.

Event tho there are tons of mechanics in ark thats 100% only needed in pvp, and not pve.

[azure bolt]

ideally, the devs make it a well-made mechanic with plenty of testing and eventually it'll resolve that issue (use rules for unofficial servers until then)

[lapis swallow]

Gimme poutinnes server

[azure bolt]

who

[lapis swallow]

Poutinne Italienne, a very based french player with a funny voice

[lucid mauve]

yea i checked him aswell

[sage yew]

I really don't understand what you are saying or how your idea is related to any of this

<@&933486433342222376> Could we get a Forum to discuss ideas of gameplay mechanics, like in this case, proximity-buffs? With a posting timer of 3-5 minutes. Maybe even 15 min.

[gentle flint]

I know it was brought up but proximity debuffs really just don’t work because a lot of the dinosaurs fight in game by ambush or they flee from an enemy by running into bushes or trees.

If I’m a carno looking for a good snack and I stand around for a couple minutes even though I think no one is there, and suddenly I get a debuff, that means someone is in the vicinity and I should hunt them down, whereas before that would have been a valid hiding method. Why should the poor baby that’s desperately hiding for it’s life, who wasn’t seen in the first place, be called out by a game mechanic that also negatively effects it.

Additionally, if I’m a deino chilling in the water and a teno wants to make sure it’s safe they could just.. stand there and wait until they get a debuff to see if it’s safe? Entirely abusable. I understand why people want this, but humans will be humans and it just negatively impacts the game.

You could say it’s for a super extended period of like hours or whatnot, or that you can remove it by doing things, but then.. what’s to stop a carno from chilling with a Stego, walking a little bit away for 2 minutes, and then coming right back? He might’ve been following them for hours like this, and just.. getting rid of it every now and then, so really it makes the debuff pointless in the first place?

And I know not everyone even thinks of this, but what if you’re fighting? Stegos can fight deinos for a long long long time. And then suddenly, both parties are wounded, and both parties are weakened, just for playing the game? It doesn’t make much sense.. Omnis and stegos can fight for a long time too, and omnis are already at a disadvantage

By all means if you can think of something to avoid this, let me know, but these are always the issues I think of.

[proud coral]

[icy lion]

That would be something to suggest in #general-feedback or discuss with Punch or our senior admins

[lapis swallow]

That is basically #general-feedback-discussion, but with extra steps

[lapis swallow]

Thank you

[sage yew]

thought more of a temporary thing, as it's not possible to open threads by our self. But never mind.

[burnt bone]

The only decent solution I have had is to expand the mixpacking scent thing like here: #general-feedback message

Essentially, you can’t see it if you’re in the pack, and it only really affects you if you’re in a larger group. So unless you can perfectly metagame the system to find the perfect amount of dinos to not trigger it unless someone is nearby and then have another person far away to smell… and at that point just spread out and look for people lmao.

[lapis swallow]

This

I like it

[gentle flint]

That’s actually a very interesting idea tbh 🤔 and not entirely harmful for the players other than an alert, I also like it

[lapis swallow]

It just makes hunting as a mixpack useless

No carni would ever mixpack again

[burnt bone]

Ty, it probably has a way it can be abused that I can’t think of, but it would probably be very unorthodox and not very effective.

[gentle flint]

I can think of a few ways to abuse it but it’s still one of the better ways I’ve heard lmao

[lapis swallow]

I would suggest reposting it

[burnt bone]

Maybe, but I tend to not like that since it’s basically just farming for ✅ most the time.

[lapis swallow]

But mixpacking is getting worse lately and this is THE solution to it, imo

[burnt bone]

Still would require gateway for migrations so we can get deterrent for herbies.

(Plus the way I explained it used the old diet system, much harder to force competition now)

[lucid mauve]

Wouldt that mean i could smell people that are in a same area ? Lets say im omni, but its also an allo or giga close to me aswell. But we are just drinking water at one place.

[gentle flint]

Not really, do you remember how the pack scent worked before?

I think it’s just basically that but for mixpacking

[lucid mauve]

But how do my scent know we are not mixpacking or just beeing close to eachother.

[gentle flint]

If you aren’t mixpacking you can just leave when you’re done? It should, theoretically, make people avoid you anyway.

Is that what you’re worried about? I’m just trying to understand!

[lucid mauve]

I mean, lets say im acro and im trying to get close to an allo. But its also a cera and a omni in a bush afk growing or something And if someone uses their scent in this peroid, wont the scent more or less say we are there.

[gentle flint]

Most people wouldn’t really know if you were mixing though, and you can’t smell it yourself if you’re part of the group. People in general want to avoid mixpacking because… well, it’s dangerous XD that’s why everyone is complaining

The pack scent mechanic worked the same way, it’s technically abusable in the sense that I used it to tell when there were deinos in the water, but anyone can do that really

[lucid mauve]

Im totally for not mixpacking, but this will be abused ? I can smell, and know people are in that area. Even tho they are not in groups

[lapis swallow]

True

[gentle flint]

That’s the point, it’s to try to force people away, y’know?
I also had somewhat of the same idea in that.. if you had a friend outside of your range sniffing all the time to alert you, that was a way to abuse the system

But that’s also how the pack scent mechanic used to work. I don’t know if they intentionally got rid of it or not, but same thing could have been said of that XD
But yeah, still abusable.

[burnt bone]

no, if you're part of the pack, you can't smell the overpacking scent.

[lucid mauve]

But you cant join other species group? We are talking mixpacking here or megapack?

[burnt bone]

I mean if the system considers you part of the mega/mixpack then you can't see the scent on the compass.

[lucid mauve]

ok, but how does something determent that ? If an allo/giga/omni/cera are close to eachother, even without knowing it.

[burnt bone]

So if a pack of rexes and a herd of stegos are together mixpacking, then neither of them would be able to see the scent marker on the compass. However, since that is a MASSIVE mixpack, half the server would see it.

[burnt bone]

A: time spent together, you need to stand near each other for a certain amount of time for the scent to start emitting, and neither of you would know unless there was a 3rd party far away that told you.
B: the "value" of the creatures in the mixpack, if a dryo and a stego are together, who cares and you aren't smelly. A horde of like 6 carnos though, would be quite smelly since thats 2x the pack limit.

[lucid mauve]

Yea, its not bad. But if a deino is in the water, ptera in a tree. Spino at the shore, herrera in tree, omni at a rock. They can all be at that spot, for a good perioid of time. But if you are talking about herbis aswell, wont this be a huge gift to big mixpackers? Who can see herds and just run over.

Im just asking, im not for mixpacking. And do like the suggestion

[burnt bone]

They can all be in that area, and not trigger a major mixpack symbol because of the value I talked about before. Lets say roughly you have to surpass 100 to get the first scent, so lets just give them arbitrary values for this: dino 50, herrera 5, omni 10, ptera 5, and spino 80. If that deino and spino were together, people a bit away could smell them since they =130. However, everything else there would not since they =20. Herds/packs within their limit would also not contribute, only once you start going over the herd limit would you start to be smelly.

While it could allow them to all herd up together, 2 issues arise:
Carnis need food, and theres nothing to eat in a big smelly cuddle pile
Herbies need diet foods, and if they are away from their intended migration zones, they are just going to be smelly and malnourished, which means an opportunistic predator could try to snatch something. Or the mixpacker can sit there bored as literally nothing goes near the death ball.

[lapis swallow]

And people who are accidentally mixpacking (per gamerule) would just move out of the way once they notice it

But how could you make faster playables not troll people by screwing them over by just staying close to them

[burnt bone]

low value

[lapis swallow]

But a pack of 5 omnis would screw over a apex

But they would be put at massive risk as well

[burnt bone]

plus, you also need to remember, if someone goes to the scent trying to track you down, they become part of the pack too and can't smell it

[lapis swallow]

Or they get MIXPACKING buff/debuff displayed in their growth and diet boosts section

[burnt bone]

by making them slightly smelly until the omnis need to eat again? might as well vc with whatever is hunting the target. or if its a predatory apex, it can also snatch them.

[burnt bone]

thats also a viable option

[lapis swallow]

It is harder to abuse than the other systems

[burnt bone]

you gain much less too

[lapis swallow]

You just do a lil trolling with putting your life at massive risk

[burnt bone]

like, the first stage (which is what you're talking about) would only be noticeable if you were smelling and it was nearby. And at that point, the omnis could just stand next to whatever it is and bark

[lapis swallow]

And I wouldnt want to let every know carno in a big range where I am as a omni

[lapis swallow]

True

[burnt bone]

like the majority of the issues I can see would be minor inconveniences, highly inefficient, and/or can already be done with existing systems.

[lapis swallow]

Great, now repost it

Dewit

[burnt bone]

eh sure why not

[burnt bone]

@lapis swallow did it with some minor adjustments

[remote dock]

patchi food pick up bug is so much worse than deion

ive had to relog 4 times

[ashen wasp]

a pack of omnis can also screw over a nearby apex by, yknow. calling. which has always been an option

[left nacelle]

@stable gazelle The devs are on holiday break. They'll be back on Monday, which is tomorrow

[stable gazelle]

really?

[left nacelle]

Yes, Kissen said so. They go on break every year from Christmas to mid/late January

[stable gazelle]

oky doky i hope they break real good cause we need some answers

[left nacelle]

Well they have still been talking in discord occasionally. The Youtube channel The Isle New Updates compiles all their discord messages into news videos, I suggest you check it out

[stable gazelle]

really?

[left nacelle]

Yes lol

https://www.youtube.com/@SaphirCeratosaurus

[stable gazelle]

where they been yesterday cause i was getting server crashes since morning

[stable gazelle]

thanks

[left nacelle]

Well Kissen was talking in #isle-discussion like 7 hours ago. But someone in #🔧-evrima-troubleshooting-🔧 might be able to help you

[stable gazelle]

ok thx

[left nacelle]

Np

[river swallow]

Will troodon have venom?

[urban flax]

yes

[river swallow]

Cool

[left nacelle]

@fossil pagoda Deino underwater vision is supposed to be bad, since it can detect vibrations in the water. That being said, Gateway will have some areas with clearer water that I've seen in some screenshots

I'm pretty sure that one's from gateway

[fossil pagoda]

Then the vibration detection shall be better, sometimes I collide with other deinos before I see/feel them. It is not fun to play something that can't run on land and can't see underwater IMO. Indeed I enjoy much more deino at around 50% growth than at 100.

[left nacelle]

Then deino might not be for you. The reasons you just gave are some of the reasons I'm so excited for beipi

Also using scent underwater lets you detect vibrations from further away fyi

[left nacelle]

@bitter timber Deino already loses a lot of stam and water on land. If you made it worse, they wouldn't be able to migrate to other water sources, which is something even irl crocs do

[bitter timber]

u haven't play the isle right now in this patch or what

[left nacelle]

I have. And I've only seen 1 deino away from water

And it wasn't a very big one either

[bitter timber]

no wonder

[lapis swallow]

They should increase the stam drain for the growing deinos

The adult deinos are not the issue

[bitter timber]

its not like deinos can grab a dino miles away from water and still be able to drown them

[left nacelle]

Okay that i can agree with

[fossil pagoda]

I feel like the underwater should be an enjoyable environment also for adult deinos. Beipi should be able to hide from them using the environment down there, same as land dinos hide from bigger ones, but not by having the predator being almost blind underwater. They should also be able to escape from them by being more agile

here somebody playing deino in gateway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX4p2-UQNdE , in min 37:20 you can see the visibility of adult deinos underwater. Basically you see nothing. He even struggled to find fish because of that

[limber hull]

gateway isn't done, and neither is the water visuals, that's why he had trouble seeing

it won't be like that in the official release

[sage yew]

Thinking about the proximity debuff/buff debate from yesterday, related to the mixpacking problem

Why not turn the number game into a mind game and work with ambiguity in our favour. Like don't show, only tell and proximity related buffs/debuffs don't become represented in any means, but the actual effect

Related numbers end effects can be altered behind the scenes by devs, which includes adaptions to typical human behaviours, to combat abuse issues by predictability of such functions.

Group sizes, species, demographics, durations and behaviours of encounters: cooperation, or abuse of planing advanced strategies, beyond actual capabilities of animals, could be taken into account, which would make the whole process hard to decipher, to use it anyone's favour.

Sure, you can still make out every rule, by bruteforcing situations and reading out values using admin tools and formulate plans to abuse such a system, but ingame variables, like specific player counts, species, age and constellations would make it unfeasible to constructively abuse it, as variables may change over time during, or even before any conflict that it becomes not predictable and by lack of feedbacks, by showing altered stat numbers, you never know if your "masterplan" actually worked or not.

The ambiguity, by stating at some point, like in the loading screen, that mixpacking between Herbis and Carnos, will result in debuffs for predators, which are not meant to cooperate with herbis (for example - maybe even between carnivores itself) would create a "natural" dislike to form such groups

basically making it into "common knowledge" that mixpacking, is not good

[tall hearth]

This would lead to discord mixpacks using fast herbivores like galli or pachy to debuff slower carnivores than them, or create unintended debuff situations when players are actually playing normally.

How long would this debuff take to apply? Long enough to interrupt someone stalking another player to make the right move? A hypsi in a tree debuffs a herrera 2 trees away, who are both unaware of each other?

[sage yew]

Well, as there are 2 types of mixpack scenarios will be probably be the most common

1. the planed ones, friend meet over a portals and play together in mixpack using 3rd party software
2. unintended encounters

the difference is time
unintended encounters will not last for hours, but planed ones, will be probably played over a long period of time and at this point, should debuffs kick in

Even if it's argued, that people could avoid each other every now and then to reduce the risk of debuffs, but this would already counter the idea of "Playing together". Also, with the idea of gauges, that's needed to be filled, before penalties take effect, and taking into account the depletion of such gauges would require an equal amount of time before they deplete, would make the whole plan of actively mixpacking tedious and therefore unattractive

Lets say, for 45min playing together, you need to move away for 45min and play alone, this would make the whole mixpacking process just unattractive

sure, you can sneak at someone and wait there, for lets say half an hour and do your thing, but to be honest, this feels really unattractive

also, as player counts do have impacts, you would need a swarm to actually inflict a debuff on anyones group, which would not be unnoticed and carnivores could get into action, simply following their "natural instinct" disliking being debuffed and therefore play more aggressive

okay, those are the obvious ones
the problem I see here, is with, let's say, solo players (solo species) that are sitting silently in a crowd of herbis, and waiting for a chance to strike ...this could take at least some time and effects could hit you unintended, but using buffer zones, by taking the time into account that players are spending together, with a long enough timespan to fill up that gauge, you should have more than enough time to play normal

[reef nacelle]

As interesting as this idea is, I can see it being a massive problem with unforeseen debuffs applying during hunting. I agree it could discourage players from mixpacking, but the unintended side effects are much more of an issue than mixpacking is. For example, carno packs hunting a stego would def get a debuff over time as killing a stego takes more than 45 mins at times (using your proposed time scale) So all of a sudden during the fight, debuff applies and stego and carnos are handicapped if a fresh spawn of carnos or stegos come along.

[tall hearth]

Theres also no way a game can tell intentional mixpacking from unintended different diet animals from just hanging out in an area playing separately in the same space

[sage yew]

I think debuffs should be bound to carnivores, so the carno would be the most effected by this

but I also said, the behaviours should be taken into account, like fighting and applying a greater amount of damage. You can argue again, that mixpackers only have to apply damage to each other every now and then, to bypass becoming debuffed, but constantly pushing yourself and others to, let's say, half HP, would also be an unattractive playstyle

[sage yew]

I just assume, that animals would not behave in this way
sure, real life examples proof otherwise, but this could be negligeed in favour of gameplay

just "hanging around" shouldn't be anyones goal, as it's a "survival" game

[tall hearth]

We arent all roleplaying real animals though. We're humans, playing a game looking for any way to get the best advantage over another

[sage yew]

that basically a MacGuffin of reasons

[lapis swallow]

What the duck is a MaxGuffin?

[tall hearth]

Players want down time in the game too. Are you tryna say there should be no time to relax, just constant surviving?

Theres no way a debuff works like that. People would only play herbs because just being around herbs as carnis would debuff them.

[lapis swallow]

Didnt Rapdex have a pretty good suggestion to fix mega/mixpacking

[reef nacelle]

It would be amazing to have a mechanic to prevent mixpacking, but sadly it is not possible. As thoughtful as your idea is, it simply would not work. Players find every chance to exploit unless its an RP server. This would get abused very quickly

[sage yew]

actually, yes. If you can relax, you have beaten the game
and why should you relax around hostile creatures, just because some players decide to be chill - you can go into a chatroom for this

[sage yew]

that's why I think ambiguity could work in favour for this. Don't make anything clear and always a constellation of different variables, which would make predictability and therefore abuse much harder

not impossible, but majority of people would not like to deal with it in the first place

[reef nacelle]

This doesn't help with "unintened" debuffs though. Lets say you re sat in a bush AFK growing (which is still a thing for now) and there is an unknown herbi nearby and you have a "gauge" then you know there is one within 10 metres.... that is unfair to the herbi. On top of that, the debuff gets applied if you are AFK and then you come back having been debuffed what happens then? Does it wear off? Does it only apply to that herbivore?

[tall hearth]

But that would still negatively affect people not trying to abuse it. Like I said, what's to stop the game from deciding two or morr players in the same area are mixpacking when they arent?

[sage yew]

not a visible gauge, you don't get any feedback if you are debuffed or not. That's the point.

and if you are AFKing in a bush, you desverve this

and as I said, I focus debuffs on carnis

[tall hearth]

A debuff system like that would either be abusable, or unfun for players trying to hide for the day/night, moving through an area, people who leave their computer for a few mins for an irl problem, etc.

[reef nacelle]

Deserve debuffing for sitting in a bush? If the devbs gave players more to do then they wouldnt sit in a bush afk growing, Its not "deserved" when it is the current meta

[tall hearth]

Mixpacks would focus using herbs to debuff their carni prey. It wouldn't work

[sage yew]

"few mins", I said times of 30 and 45 min

your arguments just go all over the place now

[reef nacelle]

And your answers too. You are trying to explain a system that in theory could work but in reality would not.

[sage yew]

and what would those mixpackers prevent to become debuffed themselfs?

[tall hearth]

Players can be around each other for 30 to 45 mins and not mixpack. How close do these players have to be? 10 feet? 100 feet? 500 feet? What's yo stop players from just resetting that timer every 30 to 45 mins and start counting down again too? Mixpacking isnt solved, they just disband for a few mins to get the timer reset.

[sage yew]

and "using" anyone, as you don't know if your actions have the desired effect, would make the whole process not predictable

[burnt bone]

So in the future when we have slow carnis like Rex, a dryo can just follow it and debuff the Rex without it ever knowing or seeing the dryo?

[sage yew]

you guys are asking now specific values, I can't tell them, as only field experiments would provide them

[sage yew]

As I said, playercounts, demographics etc. should be taken into account

[tall hearth]

But you also arent saying what should be debuffed. Does intentionally debuffing a target have a meta reason? Does it lower attack? Stamina? They lose health? If its hunger, what's to stop a fast herb from starving a rex by following it?

[burnt bone]

You mean the amount and species of players considered “in the mixpack” or across the whole server?

[sage yew]

okay, I just gave an idea on how to approach such an idea
I don't have answers to everything, therefore I just stop here to answer ...especially as I already answered many of them and they just start to repeat now.

[tall hearth]

Having the mixpack scent I feel works well enough. Once the hypers and other strains are added, players will use those to wipe any mixpacks too since they're so easily detected

[sage yew]

mixpack

[lapis swallow]

The idea from rapdex?

[sage yew]

"mixpack scent" is such a debuff I'm talking about
the questions which rulesets needs to be triggered to activate it

[reef nacelle]

Like I said earlier, love the idea. Wish it could happen and not be abused or unintentional

[tall hearth]

That kinda sounds like an admin would have to manually apply the debuff on a player at that point since its soumds incredibly circumstantial.

[lapis swallow]

And a hell to code

[sage yew]

just let the idea sink in for a while, maybe you guys are able to circum navigate some problems I have not thought of, but pls don't expect from me to have every answer available

[tall hearth]

The mixpack scent was already in the game, not sure if it was taken out this last update though. It was nice for solo players for sure lol

[lapis swallow]

I think it was taken out for some odd reason

[tall hearth]

Dang

[lapis swallow]

It also displayed big dinos near you

Just give it us back + the suggested rapdex changes

[burnt bone]

I haven’t played much in U6 but it was in during U5 at least, would make red Dino’s appear in the compass

[tall hearth]

I miss it lol

[lapis swallow]

I have seen multiple megapacks and it did not appear

[burnt bone]

It may have bugged and not been noticed then rip

[lapis swallow]

As some other stuff in this update

[tall hearth]

Sometimes it happens. I hope it's fixed at a reasonable time once the devs are off break, as with other bugs.

[tall hearth]

What was the suggestion?

[burnt bone]

(Please 6.5 be a balance patch)

[lapis swallow]

#general-feedback message

[tall hearth]

I love it. Being able to tell the level of mixpack would be good for people who want to do mixpack slaughter fests too. Like if I smell a level 1 mixpack I'd be inclined to see if I'd be able to hunt anything in it before leaving.

[lapis swallow]

Exactly. And it would render carni mixpacks useless because of food

[burnt bone]

Ty, that was the intent
Because with the current one, you don’t know if the mixpack is like 2 pachies with a stego or half the server in 1 spot.

[reef nacelle]

Anyone else find it extremely frustrating that the devs KEEP on changing things like scent? From one update to the next "what have they changed fundamentality this time."

[tall hearth]

I mean it's all subject to change since its early development. Dont get too attached to one thing, but if you do I suggest leaving feedback about how good you think it was and trying to think of suggestions to improve it. The devs read the feedback channels, so if you got a good enough idea it may catch their eye

I do miss the early scent system, but it was just a mess of colors everytime we sniffed that covered up our surroundings similar to smelling around the huge lake in legacy. It covered the screen and it was hard to make anything out because of it.

[reef nacelle]

So that is my frustration. The scent system has changed massively in just a year. It is completely different now. It is obvious the devs dont clearly think about a system before implementing it. Like the diet system. The way they added it makes me think they changed their minds a couple of times. Im not seeking answers its just a frustration as the game has so much potential but of late its becoming less enjoyable cos of performance and poor implemented changes.

[tall hearth]

Yeah I'm hoping this compass scent system changes to something similar but less screen hogging than what it used to be.

Maybe having scent icons be fainter than they were, and can be obstructed by objects and players could work? Idk if that's programmable or potentially abusable though. It's tough thinking of a system that could work.

Maybe it could just be like, faint floating particles that hover in a general direction. Not screen covering, but obvious enough that players could follow it to their food or a water source

[sage yew]

Would like to use scent without compass or icons
a somewhat heat map overlay where you can use scent to pick up a cross section of what is and was around you not long ago, represented by colors of what you are smelling

[tawdry oyster]

@DominusReaper#9712 Stego shouldn’t be nerfed because that’s how strong Stego realistically was. I mean Allosaurus is slightly bigger than Carno and even 1-2 Allos couldn’t take down a single Stego. Right now he’s the strongest in the game because there’s nothing bigger than it. And you’d be probably surprised when I say that when Anky gets added, he should probably be the strongest dino in the game, because realistically a Rex couldn’t take down Anky.

[tall hearth]

Not even using the real life comparison, stego is strong because that's what it is. It's a large dino balanced for other large dinos currently not in the game atm. Once larger predators and herbivore competitors are in, it will make more sense as to why it's so strong. It isnt intended to be hunted as an adult by other adult playables atm, besides a large coordinated pack of omnis.

[sage yew]

Would doubt it that an Tyrannosaurus couldn't handle an Ankylosaurus. Using his body mass to pin him down and one swift bite from above and it's over. Once he get's on top, there are up to 9 tons pushing down onto you.

It's a pretty hard claim you are dropping here, do you have any source material?

[tawdry oyster]

There is no getting on top when Ankylosaur can break the Trex’s bone with a single swing. People underrate so many herbivores just because of how famous Trex is

Also Anky has a armored body for a reason, Trex can’t bite him from the top

[sage yew]

sounds more like a "my point of you" thing, instead of "realistically"
If the Ankylosaurus is in a advantages position and lands a lucky hit, you are probably right and T-Rex bones would maybe even shatter, but to assume that a T-Rex would be helpless against it seems a bit far of

[tawdry oyster]

Tons of websites even books prove that Ankylosaur>Trex

[sage yew]

no skull would withstand a T-Rex bite, you can take it as a fact

[tawdry oyster]

You’re ignoring the fact that in order for the T-rex to get close he has to avoid the tail

And I don’t think Anky has to land a “lucky hit” on his legs.

[lapis swallow]

It has a advantage, but its not a ez win for ankylo all the time

[tawdry oyster]

I agree on that

[sage yew]

why should a T-Rex go for a potentially deadly tail strike, if the head is the least deffended weakpoint? You are just assuming that it will aproach from behind, but why should it in the first place. Considering that an ankylosaurus is quad pedal, with low agility and has up to 4 tons to turn around

[tawdry oyster]

Of course T-rex did use to ambush it’s prey most of the time so yes, it it gets a jump on Ankylosaurus it can actually kill it

But when it comes to facing down, Anky can immobilize Rex 90% of the time

[sage yew]

from where do you get your information? Some evidence?
Or is this again just your point of view, maybe even from your experience with legacy or other dino games?

[tawdry oyster]

I’m not assuming that it’s gonna approach from the behind, I’m saying that when it comes to fighting Trex won’t get to the head because the Anky is aware the Rex is there so he’s gonna use the one weapon he has

[tawdry oyster]

I already told you, websites and books

[sage yew]

uh, source: internet and books
so relatable

name one

[tawdry oyster]

Wdym relatable?

[tawdry oyster]

One book?

[sage yew]

one source!

[tawdry oyster]

I don’t exactly remember the names of the books but I remember reading about it

[lucid mauve]

Just dont , you gonna debunk that source neways lol

[sage yew]

I don't care what you think remembering, I want some evidence

[tawdry oyster]

Just go to literally any website where they talk about Anky vs Trex

[sage yew]

no problem for you to look something up, to prove your claims

[tawdry oyster]

Almost every website will state that when it comes to head on combat Anky will immobilize Rex

[tawdry oyster]

No problem for me?

[sage yew]

like I said: name one

[tawdry oyster]

Just search Anky vs Rex 💀

[lapis swallow]

Can we just settle on the fact that rex probably lost most of the time because it just retreated after the initial ambush because it cant risk a legbreak. Like how many other predators do when they ambush dangerous prey.

[sage yew]

A T-rex can fly, just sEaRcH it

[tall hearth]

Doesnt matter the match up irl, what matters is what happens in game.

Anky should be able to defend itself effectively and be able to escape rex if need be

[lapis swallow]

Now you are just making fun of ladderson

[lapis swallow]

It just camps in the rivers and mixpacks with crocs

[cyan flame]

However it went irl isn't all that relevant, since well, game, and a game with critters that never interacted with each other at that.

[tawdry oyster]

That isn’t proving anything, you’re basically saying my source 1000000 websites are incorrect, and the other 100 are

[sage yew]

he said explicitly realistically

[tawdry oyster]

Cause that’s how it REALISTICALLY would go down

[lucid mauve]

I dont think anky can escape anything lol, but it will for sure be able to defend itself

[cyan flame]

Ah. Well, that's kind of irrelevant for the game. Not sure why that point was even brought up.

[tawdry oyster]

That’s what I’m tryin to say

[lucid mauve]

Concept art looks like anky can lay down , and get up really fast and swing its tail.

[lapis swallow]

Anky is shown defending itself against two acros, its gonna be a unit

[tawdry oyster]

That’s exactly what I’m sayin this whole time

[tall hearth]

I hope it's less mix pack and more co dependency. One animal indirectly affecting another animals experience. If anky runs to water and a rex wants to follow it in, I as a croc would go for the rex instead of the anky since the anky attracts food to the water.

[lucid mauve]

I think anky gonna be really bad matchup for rex, giga/spino etc might have a better chance

[lapis swallow]

It was a joke tbh

[sage yew]

being dangerous or strong, does not mean a T-Rex can't do anything, as far knowledge goes, they ware intelligent animals

[tall hearth]

Ah lol

[lapis swallow]

Why should a giga have a good matchup against anky. It is shown literally getting deflected when it bit the anky

[lucid mauve]

I just think bleed is more effective then pure dmg against it, its just a guess tho

[tall hearth]

Intelligent animals would weigh the risk over the reward and make a good decision.

A meal (anky) or a potentially fatal wound (broken bones, bones piercing organs, possible death itself)

[lapis swallow]

But you need pure damage against that thing, how will you get through this armor without a good bite?

[sage yew]

that's why an approach from behind is a bad idea

[lapis swallow]

I think a anky could walk in sight of a giga knowing it wont bother it

[lapis swallow]

Ankys have the ability to turn

[tawdry oyster]

What we’re saying here though is that in a head on fight Anky will break Rex’s ankles, you keep trying to disprove that. Yes, if Rex can get an ambush in it can kill the Anky

[lucid mauve]

I honestly dont know, but i think biting at some weak spots making it bleed of somesort. I think it will be a long fight, endurance. Not sure if rex is good for that.

[lapis swallow]

But all the weak spot are to low to reach for giga

[lucid mauve]

Yea, the only thing ive seen that its weak for was the spino.

[lapis swallow]

Spino is a different story, that guy is a kaiju

[lucid mauve]

lol true

Maybe giga/rex just gonna avoid it for most part

[lapis swallow]

Rex could fight it as a like "either I get this or I am in serious trouble foodwise"

[tall hearth]

I hope so. Not every matchup should be 50/50. Anky should have to worry less about some predators over others, so it doesnt end up as the usual apex preds slaughtering everything in sight gameplay like legacy was

[tawdry oyster]

Legacy Anky was done dirty

[lapis swallow]

Exactly,like that some playables have some specialities like omni primarily hunting nimble stuff, hadrosaurs and ceratopsians (I hope it will be like this).

[lucid mauve]

I killed more in groups of allos/dillos/utahs in 3 hour game play then i did with my rex for 1 week lol

[tawdry oyster]

Same

[tall hearth]

Not surprised. It's easier finding and killing stuff in groups.

[quick maple]

for carno do I have to hold down any button to ram or is it just automatic when I sprint?

[icy lion]

Tap RMB to start it

You can tap it again to cancel iirc See below

[proud coral]

From my experience, you have to stop to cancel.

Tapping again does nothing.

[barren crater]

Tapping doesn't stop charge, you need to slow down

[icy lion]

Ah yea, thanks guys!

[icy lion]

@turbid quarry Herrera is planned to climb, there was a preview of it in a devblog recently that I can try to find for you

[turbid quarry]

i already saw it climb a cliff

what i mean is like birds are in its diet and stuff

[olive lake]

@dusky hemlock What do you mean?

[dusky hemlock]

🥥

[olive lake]

there is already cocnuts

[burnt bone]

we have coconuts in game... they're on pachy's diet

[olive lake]

:l

[dusky hemlock]

Oh

[burnt bone]

wait, are you on legacy or evrima?

[dusky hemlock]

They stole my idea wtf

[olive lake]

What branch of the isle u on?

@dusky hemlock

[true haven]

hahaha it's been years since they added that

[surreal nimbus]

@icy flare This is the dumbest, most ridiculous and at the same time saddest argument that has probably ever come out of the mouth of a human being. I bet you're in the top list for the Darwin Award again this year.

[sand lantern]

Ah yes Cheating is infact better than herbis mixpacking

[dire ridge]

@somber elm The cannibalism debuff is there to reduced the ability for some species to sustain themselves by eating each other and "stick to their intended diet". In no way it was to prevent kill between same species playables.
If you want some kind of restriction toward that, try to find unofficial servers with rules that actively forbid it, because im pretty sure you will NEVER see the dev doing something against that in their "Survival Horror game"

[somber elm]

The whole point is to not kill your own species unless you are a cannibal species so it doesn’t matter if you eat them or not

In real life you don’t get sick from eating another person

[dire ridge]

Killing to prevent competition is a thing

[urban flax]

You actually do

[somber elm]

Only certain deseases from the blood and brain but not from the actual person and not all the time

[urban flax]

Cannibalizing on a regular basis is very bad for humans, and a good number of mammals

[dire ridge]

irrelevant anyways, its a game

[urban flax]

But as Vector said, the point of cannibalism debuffs is to prevent some species from being able to sustain thesmelves off their lost pack members if they fail a hunt

[somber elm]

But why not be able to do that, realistically that would be possible

[urban flax]

Before they were added, utahs could form infinite megapacks, run into stegos or whatever and eat the ones who died and never starve
Just like what carno megapacks do now

[somber elm]

And it would be much better for people not to kill eachother without reason

[harsh jungle]

@somber elm sickness after killing would make self defense cause sickness which makes it so no matter what you do if youre attacked by your species you either die or get sick

[somber elm]

They don’t starve from cannibalism

[urban flax]

They don't kill without reason
Killing someone else for fun is a reason

[somber elm]

Without good reason

[urban flax]

No, but cannibalizing gives you debuffs

[urban flax]

A good reason for killing is subjective

Killing other species for fun is alright but killing your own isn't ?

[dire ridge]

its a survival game, any reason is valid as long as you don't cheat

[urban flax]

Because at that point just give a debuff to anyone killing another player if they don't eat them afterwards

[somber elm]

It’s survival you don’t usually go and kill other members of your species for fun

[dire ridge]

except when you do lol

[urban flax]

I don't
But I expect other people to do that so I'm being wary of them
Because I'm playing a survival game

[dire ridge]

not everyone is the same and don't forget, yes we play animal but we are human

don't trust stranger

[urban flax]

What my momma told me

[somber elm]

That’s not how it would work primitively

[urban flax]

But that's how it works in the context of the game

[somber elm]

Why should it

[dire ridge]

Right ? lot of people seems to forget that when playing the isle, i don't know why

[urban flax]

Because it's not supposed to be a chatroom or a safe environment

Also punishing players just for killing their own species leads to other mechanical problems

[somber elm]

You should be able to trust 90% of your species

[dire ridge]

suuuure

[urban flax]

Like irl I guess ? Because Irl I wouldn't trust 10% of the people I know

[true haven]

In fact we could right now

[somber elm]

That is how it works in modern times, primitively killing someone for no reason wouldn’t benefit you but in modern times you can

[urban flax]

Imagine you're a starving omni, stumble upon a carcass that is barely enough to feed you and another omni comes and tries to steal it
Why should you prevented from killing him and keeping the food for yourself ?

[dire ridge]

So by default we should trust complete stranger just because they look like us ? Do you really need a reality check or ?

[urban flax]

I don't even know what you're on about anymore

[somber elm]

You should be able to trust most of your own species

[urban flax]

no

[somber elm]

Yes.

[dire ridge]

oh

wow

i guess there isn't more to add

[urban flax]

What about what I said regarding the starving omni situation ? What's your solution to that ?

[true haven]

Yeah, and also omni already had muscle spasm to punished cannibals

[lapis swallow]

And what happens to animals that get attacked by cannibals and kill their attacker? Do they get punished for defending themselves?

[somber elm]

I don’t know if it would neccessarily be for killing but some way to stop people from randomly killing eachother for fun

[dire ridge]

seems like it

[somber elm]

Otherwise it’s just not fun

[lapis swallow]

How about we look at the mechanics that allow such cheap kills.. pin cough cough

[true haven]

You could just fight or flee

[somber elm]

Yes that should change

[dire ridge]

Still, the killing would continue (i don't see the problem with that tho)

on that take, maybe the game is not for you

[somber elm]

Atleast people would be warned when someone has killed another of their species rather than off they found a corpse when they were starving

The whole point of the sickness it to Warn other players

[dire ridge]

its not a team based fps/tps

[true haven]

Then only when you eat the body not killing

Killing debuff doesn’t make any sense

[dire ridge]

its to punish you from eating your own when you play a playable that's not cannibal

[somber elm]

With the muscle spasms and infertility it is warning you of a cannibal

[lapis swallow]

Just make mirror matchups more fair so the cannis have to fear their life when they appproach you 1 vs 1

[somber elm]

Yes maybe not killing but something to prevent players from killing eachother without reason

[dire ridge]

there's always a reason

[true haven]

The problem is hitbox, desync, or overall connectivity issue, again i agree that basically the attacker has the same risk to get killed

So why would you be afraid to fight back ?, or if you’re outmatched just run

[dire ridge]

i would add that every fight make you vulnerable afterward (health/stam wise) so you need to take that into account aswell

[true haven]

True, like if they hit u in certain spot u might never fully healed

[somber elm]

Omni specifically shouldn’t be able to pin another adult

[true haven]

That’s basically the battle scar mechanic

[dire ridge]

well i kind the see your point BUT if an omni manage to sneak on you and pin you, its gj fo him

[lapis swallow]

It should be, just with some strategy behind it

Unlike now

[somber elm]

Yes

And ptera can one shot eachother…

[dire ridge]

agree, a pin from behind is fair but the front pin should have something else

[true haven]

It’s just not well thought, the could add a little bucking or just any mechanic that allow u to escape

[somber elm]

Pin itself needs a rework so that the creature can fight back or some thing

[dire ridge]

not in every situation

[somber elm]

Or maybe since you are so close that they can attack you and you take a little bit of damage?

I edited the post to say that killing would be a bad idea thanks for the suggestions

[true haven]

It can’t be done with only animation, there need to have some sort of physics to it, like whether ur mouth could reach their arms or belly etc

[urban flax]

Reminds me I had a dream about that and I must post it in general feedback now

[proven river]

@sage yew Oh no, people actually used the skin system to make camouflage and blend into the environment, utilizing a game mechanic in a unique way, how dare they!

[dire ridge]

how dare you trying to adapt to you environment, can't you just be albinos or blue like everyone else ?

[agile tiger]

Was it shown in the isle?

Plus is anky coming soon? Seems to be a lot of recent talk about it

[proven river]

exactly! Clearly you must pick bright colours and make yourself stand out

[proven river]

[agile tiger]

I'll take that as a no lol

[proven river]

Mate people talk about everything, Anky's not coming for at least 5 years and that's optimistic

considering we got nothing last year and I believe only one playable in 2021

[agile tiger]

I thought last year there was like 4 or 5 new playables

or was that the year b4

[proven river]

last year being 2022? Yeah no

[agile tiger]

I've lost count tbh

[sage yew]

nothing wrong with that. But using a bright color scheme to blend in at night and instead being totally visible using dork colors and patterns. That's not how night or colors are supposed to work

try to find me here

[agile roost]

That's impressive

[proven river]

hmmmm

[agile roost]

They should just completely remove the night vision

And make nights like in update 4

But different dinosaurs can see in the night more clearly

[sage yew]

just by reading your comments, @dire ridge and @proven river I take it for sure, that you ware not able to see me in this original screenshot: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/401481371249541120/1064535993069338676/20230108212001_1.jpg?width=960&height=540

and I'm using the bright camouflage

[proven river]

Is that not you?

[sage yew]

yes

[dire ridge]

i saw you and i find it neat. still i kind of agree that current night vision need some tweak

[proven river]

But I get your point, it is very very effective and you probably wouldn't notice it ingame

[sage yew]

and I had the brightest colors of them all
Nightvision shouldn't use black and white values on their own, but use colofilters to create the black and white image

https://shootitwithfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Using-Color-Filters-with-Black-and-White-Film-by-Jennifer-Stamps-on-Shoot-It-With-Film-01.jpg

red filter, makes grass green appear dark

[limber hull]

they should not do that lol wtf

[agile roost]

It looked better imo

[limber hull]

sure, but it also means that nocturnals become nearly useless if night was that bright

and permits for gamma exploiting all over again

[agile roost]

Just make it brighter for them

[limber hull]

doesn't matter how bright it is if you can just crank up gamma to completely bypass those restrictions

[agile roost]

Like being able to see in the dark in a limited radius makes no sense to me

[agile roost]

You can't really use gamma in evrima

Compared to legacy

[limber hull]

you know why?

[dire ridge]

[limber hull]

because they added anti-gamma with the update that added NV

[agile roost]

I know

[limber hull]

gamma was all over the place before NV was in

[agile roost]

They should only remove the night vision

[limber hull]

and then people will start gamma exploiting again lol and nocturnals will be useless, but sure

[agile roost]

How would they exploit if there's anti-gamma?

[limber hull]

hell, there'd be an entire diet slot buff that's entirely useless, since "NV buffs" would be entirely meaningless without NV

[agile roost]

So?

[limber hull]

you realise that if we had no NV, and anti-gamma, everything would be pitch black

that's what anti-gamma does

it makes darkness pitch black

[agile roost]

Do you understand what anti gamma does

[limber hull]

so that you cannot brighten it because it is quite literally without colour or light

[agile roost]

It literally just makes your screen black

[limber hull]

????

it makes the environment black, not your screen

that would be turning off your monitor lmao

[agile roost]

Well yeah

[lapis swallow]

I swear gamma abusers should go to hell. Ruined the beautiful night

[agile roost]

That'll easily prevent people from using it

[limber hull]

what

what the hell are you talking about lol

[sage yew]

you guys are missing the point of each other entirely, that's funny

[agile roost]

I know right

This guy can't even read what I'm saying

[sage yew]

and I think you are troling

[agile roost]

How

[lapis swallow]

Can somebody show me the skin that you need for insane camo? I kinda wanna play pachy and be a stealth bonker

[dire ridge]

[limber hull]

i wish i could understand your alien reasonings

[sage yew]

Anti-gamma - NV = absolute useless night
Anti-gamma + NV + Adjustments + Balancing = awesome

[agile roost]

Ok all I'm saying is they revert to U4 night vision, certain animals have the ability for them to see the environment clearer and to prevent gamma users, the game would just turn pitch black if it detects you using gamma

What's so hard to understand

[urban flax]

The game detects nothing

[limber hull]

there is no detection in anti-gamma

[agile roost]

It does wym

[urban flax]

That's not how the anti-gamma works

[limber hull]

anti-gamma does not have any detection systems whatsoever

[dire ridge]

"if it detect you using gamma" thats not a thing bro

[limber hull]

i've been saying this from the start

[agile roost]

My god

[limber hull]

it's fundamentally impossible to detect that

[agile roost]

Do you seriously think the Devs can't implement that

[lapis swallow]

Yes

[dire ridge]

wtf lmao

[limber hull]

yes, because it is literally virtually impossible

[sage yew]

anti gamma sets light velues above 1 (to a limit) to 0

[agile roost]

You've never coded in your life how do you know that

[dire ridge]

[lapis swallow]

Bruh

[limber hull]

ah yes, the assumptions

[agile roost]

Ah yes the brain-dead people in this useless ass server

[dire ridge]

oh ok then

[limber hull]

i have career experience in game development, what you are asking for is a way for devs to develop a system that can easily detect changes to external hardware that is independent from the main software, a functional impossibility

[sage yew]

I've studied arts and photography for years, I know at least a little bit how gamma, light values and colors work

[lapis swallow]

Well, it is possible, but it is called a virus

Or am I wrong?

[limber hull]

not even a virus can do that, unless it is designed to interface with every monitor's unique internal softwares

you know how some monitors have gamma changes?

[lapis swallow]

Why do the devs not create a virus for that? Lazy devs!!!

[limber hull]

that's a monitor-only action, it does not communicate with the main computer at all to do that

[agile roost]

That's because people use reshade

[sage yew]

anti gamma, sets values below a certain transhhold to 0 and adjusting gamma on your screens, will not result in any more information you can see = anti gamma

[limber hull]

you can change the gamma on a monitor without it even being attached to a computer, all it needs is a power outlet

there are programs like reshade, which CAN be prevented by using a software that scans for such programs, but gamma changing itself cannot be fully prevented via detection software

[agile roost]

Then don't use a monitor

[sage yew]

trol, like I said

[limber hull]

true lol

[agile roost]

Assumptions am I right

It's called a joke lol

[sage yew]

like your whole argumentation

[agile roost]

Thanks for sharing your feedback that I did not ask for

[sage yew]

the only thing that "anti gamma" does, is setting gray values to pure black, so you are not able to abuse settings to alter the night

[limber hull]

if you did not seek feedback, perhaps general feedback discussion should not have been your choice of discussion forum

[agile roost]

He wasn't talking about the game

He said my argument was a 'joke'

@sage yew am I correct

Silence, wow

[fossil pagoda]

is that why shadows are so dark in the game?

[dire ridge]

probably

[limber hull]

exactly why

anti-gamma does that

[sage yew]

that's a different thing, this is global illumination
usually it would be brighten by light scattering (rayleigh scattering) in nature, but that's not feasable for a game without raytracing, so global illumination makes shadows lighter or darker

you can brighten up shadows during the day by altering settings, but that just breaks visuals

also, in darker scenes, in nature would an aperture adjustment by your eyes happen, to compensate lower light values during the day, therefore would a forest in real life never appear this dark during the day

but for now, there is only a static aperture available ingame

[urban flax]

I wonder if dynamic eye adaptation could solve the gamma abuse problem

[sage yew]

in which sense?

[urban flax]

Also I was hoping it would become redundant with the implementation of humans and artificial lights since having a flashlight in your field of view during the night would blind you if you're cranking gamma up

[urban flax]

The game automatically lightens up during the night to allow you to see a little bit, but then if you keep gamma abusing in daylight your entire screen turns white

Wait I suddendly wonder
Could increasing contrast during the nights work ?
If there's already bright colors during nighttime, upping gamma would burn the image and make it inefficient

[sage yew]

light values below a trashhold need to be forced to 0, or you can abuse gamma

[urban flax]

That's the obvious solution
But I'm wondering if it can be solved the other way around
By making abusing gamma have negative effects instead of no effect at all
Like blinding the player

(Yeah I don't care about people with health issues, they're the one who decided to try to cheese the game)

[sage yew]

not really, as you can only alter dark parts of the screen selectively

[urban flax]

damn

[sage yew]

make dark less dark, but bright keep that bright like it is

[urban flax]

It's astounding how it's always a tiny portion of the playerbase who ruins the fun for everyone
It doesn't apply only to videogames tho

[dire ridge]

talking about gamma ?

[urban flax]

Gamma abusers, hackers, mixpackers, people who do revenge killing, etc...

[dire ridge]

well thats life i guess :/

[urban flax]

That's why we can't have good things

[sage yew]

Gamedesign is a huge aspect of this

never let people get bored, or they start to mess things up

and gamma abusers, it's kind of "natural" that anyone will try to increase the possible gain of information, as information limmitation is a part of the game design and gaining information is key to become better

[dire ridge]

when i started playing the isle, it was on legacy, everyone was like "use gamma, if you don't you'll always be at a disadvantage" it was a sad reality

[limber hull]

very hard to do in a slow survival game

[sage yew]

that's the reason why nearly every pure survival game died after some time, because immersion got replaced by cheap entertainment

but it's not the fault of this genre, but by the difficulty developing featuers that never have been before

[limber hull]

i mean, a good thing about The Isle is that it isn't a pure survival game, the dinosaur element does give a legitimate good level of replayability

also it's a good separation from the rest of the genre

[sage yew]

if your player character is human or a dino, there is no huge difference in regard of survival

the only problem is, that after 1-2 hours, you have done all the "survival" this game can offer, after that it's more of a battle royal

you need only 2 things
food and water

after that there is no survival left, beside PvP

[limber hull]

thats basically all survival games tho, food, water, and combat make up the three main elements

[sage yew]

Ark tried to implement base building, but done so lame

[dire ridge]

well, the hunting/getting hunt get some nice adrenaline moment, that + the settings is a sold for me in a sense

[limber hull]

i dont play ARK because everything I've seen of it angers me

yea, 100%

[sage yew]

agree

[limber hull]

i am interested in elders and weather, something to aim for + a consistently changing environment would 100% allow for further engagement

[dire ridge]

if you don't spam afk growing, every new life is "supposed" to be different

[sage yew]

BUT, a good survival never lets you reach your goals
100% is just a mythos and you are berally surviva at all
high risk gameplay with low reward

but in the Isle it takes just 30 min to be perfectly fed for the whole day

[limber hull]

i... disagree, heavily with this sentiment.

a good survival game lets you bask in your achievements once you've made them

constantly pressuring you to do more is stressful and not fun

[sage yew]

never, after gaining anything you are supposed to lose it in the most cruel way

[dire ridge]

agreed, in survival game, i like the game part of it aswell x)

[sage yew]

that's survival ;)

[limber hull]

no, that's not

[sage yew]

it's not supposed to provide short term fun

[limber hull]

survival is not constant frustration

[sage yew]

no one said anything about furstration
it's a matter of perspective

[north quiver]

constant frustration drives a lot of people away. dare I say most people

[sage yew]

every other game is rewarding, and if you are bored of this reward overdose, you go to survival games

[limber hull]

i think you completely misunderstand survival as a genre

[sage yew]

and I think I sound more harsh trying to explain it

[limber hull]

if all survival games were like this, how do so many have players doing their own things the game doesn't want them to do

The Forest is a survival game, yet I am allowed to make myself a massive rollercoaster slide because I want to and I'm in the endgame, and it's fun

[sage yew]

That's the thing, all survival games failed at providing good content in the long run, survival became always boring in any game that tried this attempt

[low canopy]

That game is all about making a big fortress and warding off endless waves of mobs

[limber hull]

I mean, if you play it like that, sure

[sage yew]

but please, don't put "fun" so much into focus
as survival in it's purest form is made to provide discomfort, not in an unpleasent way, but to make it challenging

[low canopy]

this is actually so true, I have yet to find survival game that managed to counter this
with maybe the exception of high pop legacy servers without proper AI spawns and very luck reliant game play

[sage yew]

the fun, is fighting the odds

[limber hull]

you realise that contests heavily with other game elements, i.e. nesting

nesting requires you to stay still, settle down and care for others. We've already seen how the current pressure to stay moving, eating and more makes this hard if not outright a waste of time

[north quiver]

most animals and humans operate better on reward incentives rather than punishment. a lot of people play video games to get away from the stress of being an actual productive adult. Having a game constantly give stress will drive a good chunk of the player base away who just want to have fun and not be stressed. a good system is a reward system. you finish a goal, and you feel rewarded. if you constantly make that goal impossible to achieve, people will just leave. the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again expecting different results despite never getting them

[sage yew]

are you guys just scared of not reaching your goals?

[limber hull]

What?

[north quiver]

no. we’re just not insane

[limber hull]

We're not masochists lol

[north quiver]

or masochists

[limber hull]

damn, same wavelength

[north quiver]

lmaoo

[sage yew]

guys, just slow down for a bit ....I'm again fighting here for arguments on the lower end, that's unpleasing

[limber hull]

what

the hell does fighting for arguments on the lower end even mean

[north quiver]

sorry one opinion always has to be the least popular one

[limber hull]

should i be insulted? I feel like i should be insulted

[north quiver]

everyone has their preferences. some preferences are more popular

[sage yew]

to make things clear, you guys don't like survival, is this it?

[limber hull]

what the hell are you on about

[north quiver]

I like survival. risk and reward. I don’t like being constantly shot down with punishments

[limber hull]

if i didnt like survival i wouldn't play survival games

[sage yew]

I don't know what you are on about

[low canopy]

the reward portion is badly missing out on isle

[sage yew]

I just see constantly massages popping up with different aspects and I can't keep up

stop posting every 10 seconds D:

[limber hull]

i dont like being constantly being prodded in the side and being told "HEY HEY DO THIS DO THIS DO THAT DO THAT YOU WILL DIE HAHAHA YOU HAVING FUN YET NO TIME TO RELAX YOU HAVE A PLANT HALFWAY ACROSS THE MAP YOU NEED TO EAT"

I want like, 2 seconds to sit down and be a cool dinosaur

Nesting is literally so unviable right now because of how demanding the game already is

[sage yew]

the point is, currently you have HOURS to relax in piece

[limber hull]

Migrations is one of my fave systems planned. Either remain away from the groups (and thus the predators), but risk starvation in the barren areas, or go with the herds and prepare for a fight

[sage yew]

constant fear and misery are important, or why do you survive in the first place, to build a fortress?

[limber hull]

I don't play a game for constant fear and misery tho

This is literally masochism

[north quiver]

lol

[limber hull]

Even horror games let you take breathers

[sage yew]

...

[north quiver]

even a game like Dead Space

[sage yew]

dead space is not really survival

its action horror

[north quiver]

it’s horror and existential dread I think you’d like it

3 is action horror

1 is actually horror

[limber hull]

The Forest is both survival and horror (like the Isle is), and it manages to let you feel moments of security and calm

[north quiver]

2 is horror also

[limber hull]

I love The Forest

[sage yew]

I can't keep up with this discussion, I can berally answer to anything without getting bombarded with commets how stupid my view is

I'm furstrated at this point and I just go =_=

[north quiver]

what no one is calling your comments stupid

[limber hull]

i dont think anyone has called you stupid

[sage yew]

"Survival" is what it is
if you do't like it, fine, but don't call the current The Isle survival

[sage yew]

it just feels like

[limber hull]

What survival games are you playing that punish you so heavily that you believe every survival game is/should be like this

[obsidian jetty]

as fun as this is to watch, I don't think Damus means the game should be impossible to play due to everyone constantly starving or being hit by falling trees or meteor showers every 2 minutes. I think the point is that it's way too easy right now given that the things that make other games worthwhile once survived (like building cool things or rollercoasters once you have a base, steady food supply and all resources you'll ever need) are non-existant in this game.

[limber hull]

Man, even RUST of all games gives you breathing room once you build even a small wooden shack

[jagged jewel]

A survival/horror game without downtime gets pretty unfun pretty quick

[north quiver]

survival:
-eat
-drink
-necessities of life needed to survive
thus survival because you’re trying to uhm.. survive lol

[limber hull]

It's weird. It's easy enough to survive comfortably, while also being difficult to perform tasks like nesting or so on. My issue with his statements is saying you should "never reach your goals" or "be in constant fear and misery"

[jagged jewel]

I get where he's coming from but that just wouldn't be fun at all

Downtime lets the mind relax and also indirectly makes the next scare more intense

Because you won't be expecting it

[sage yew]

The Isle is 90% relax

[jagged jewel]

The gameplay loop is barely done lmao

Even other games, they have downtime

[limber hull]

True, we still need so much more

[jagged jewel]

We have the beginnings of the gameplay loop, almost no depth compared to the planned product

[obsidian jetty]

ye, we can only hope that the things that are to come, like poison/venom, weather and migration do something about that

[limber hull]

I'd be fine if metabolism scaled with age. Big guys less hungry, but will devour food sources much faster, small guys hungry a lot, need eat more frequently, but consume overall less food.

Helps both the AFK issue and the fact that nesting is so hard. Ideally, with migrations, animals will also be able to stick around a single concrete spot for all the nutrients they need, so they aren't in a constant state of decay.

[north quiver]

90% relax if you play stego and chill in large canni group lol

[jagged jewel]

make nocturnal dinos get hungry slower in day time and vice versa

[sage yew]

No one said, that a game is not supposed to have any moment to breath or have no downtime

It's like chess, where every move is supposed to be calculated, while the envirionment (like other players) make their moves too

if you pause chess, to simply relax and talk, like raptors do for hours on cuddle rock, it's not a game, but a community meeting game

[obsidian jetty]

there currently are only 2 "dangers" for survival...other players or a lack thereof. That's it. And I too think that's not enough. ^^

[north quiver]

I’d love this so much

[jagged jewel]

You did though

you said "constant fear and misery are important"

That literally means no moments to breath

[sage yew]

you guys are just interpreting freely my comments and I have to constantly pick your answer appart to make stuff clear

[jagged jewel]

You're the one miswording them lmao

[sage yew]

because I have to answer in quick succession to keep up

[jagged jewel]

What did you mean when you said that constant fear and misery are important?

[sage yew]

because everything I say results in like 10 answers nippicking on every aspect

[jagged jewel]

It isn't nitpicking if it's your main point

Anyways, what did you mean by "constant fear and misery are important"

[north quiver]

take your time pings are a thing for a reason. this is a discussion channel no one is or should berate you for taking your time to think your words through

[limber hull]

Also, chatting on a rock is fine. You have to get down eventually, food and water still exists, and your random rock of relaxing raptors is probably making a real ruckus

[jagged jewel]

There's always people wanting to prevent others from relaxing in the isle

Me and a friend killed like 10 deinos that thought we wouldn't cannibalize because population control

[sage yew]

I can't even keep up reading... I'm done
last thing: "constant" is your motivator to do things in the first place
to have a moment to breath is not wrong at all, but it should always include your next steps you are willing to do next to keep surviving

you guys need to chill, to give some room for a conversation, this quick response with fears of altered gameplay are just too much to handle

[north quiver]

population control would work better if other things were actually fun to play as. poor little dryo had its feet cut off at the ankles :c deinos can silently run on land like they’re land creatures and snatch people up

[jagged jewel]

You can take all the time you want lol, we're not forcing you to answer quick

[north quiver]

not to mention the issues carnos bring in with everything that’s not a deino or stego..

[sage yew]

everyone asking me for answers and there are too many in the first place

[jagged jewel]

sub dieno is really fun

[jagged jewel]

I was the only asking you for an answer to my 1 question

[north quiver]

yea it is fun to play but sadly not fun for those who don’t play it

[sage yew]

you are not alone and I'm just overwhelmed

[jagged jewel]

that's fair ig

[limber hull]

"you guys need to chill out and give some room", said the man advocating against chilling out

also, stop interpreting disagreement with fear. I'm fine with change, but you seem to be requesting a game experience that's just downright unpleasant. I LIKE the idea of stuff being harder, but you're failing to account for core mechanics like nesting, migrations and more, which will inevitably lead to players settling down

[north quiver]

^

[sage yew]

what has a conversation to do with a game?
these are 2 different things! god dammit

That's why I'm tired!

[limber hull]

just thought it was funny watching the guy saying we shouldn't chill out telling us to chill out lol

[sage yew]

IN A GAME!

whatever

[obsidian jetty]

I remembered that I'd asked you before what more would be needed to call this game survival. Sorry for the ping and thanks for that because I was genuinely curious 😉 So if anyone would like to know what it is, there's the answer ^^

[north quiver]

if survival by definition in the most basic form isn’t meeting the necessary requirements needed to survive then ig animals out in the wild aren’t surviving lol your little Fito dog or Garfield cat isn’t surviving. little bird outside your window or the one down the street isn’t surviving

[sage yew]

one major aspect of survival is to have limited resources
and before anyone claims "it's not fun", other games like Silent Hill or the old Resident Evil have done it too. With various mechanics acting against you, like managing resources against time, which applies to food and water mechanics to the Isle too

Water and food are easely accessible in The Isle and give A LOT of breathing time in between and result in up to 40min of downtime where anyone can chill (or even can get bored), till he needs to look for his next source of resources like food

If your resource lasts for 40 min, it should take nearly equaly amount of time, to gain the next resource.

For an Survival game, it's important to have constant motivation, for every step you take, there should be reason behind it.

How to do it in The Isle specifically? Don't know really

The next thing is limiting information and in this regard is The Isle not even bad, by not using maps or gps (scent aside). Or limiting information by locking camera during eating. These are good steps. Also limiting information during the night, using anti-gamma and having an pitch black environment is pretty neat, not many games can provide. This tiny cone (NV) of vision is pretty entertaining.

No one would consider these things as "fun" in particular, but they are making the game definitely better. Once survival aspect is done right, it should be fun to play it, without the need of feeling constantly rewarded.

I would say, make the stomach a resource
limit it's capacity to a lower limit, just few liters of volume

trying to manage water and food intake, would make it interesting to adapt to different scenarios.

[olive lake]

Well it wont really if you the equaly amont of time to kill it again becuase you have to hunt and kill it and depending on who or how skilled you are it will be of course differnt

and ltes say I am doo dooo player right? I claim a resource like a dead omi child i cant do that next time cus of skilled

[sage yew]

currently you can pick on multiple fights during this 40 min span, totally possible to gain way more then you actually need

[north quiver]

I personally feel like the camera lock as it is now is bs mostly for herbivores. they have eyes on the sides of their heads for a reason, and the fact that it takes a whole 3 or so seconds for herbivores to stop their eating animation is just painful. you’re not allowed to have an edge with your own personal reaction time

[obsidian jetty]

I don't think limiting the stomach is a viable approach, because as mentioned - nesting would turn into a chore for the parents, which, while maybe realistic, is not really fun. But what I'd like to see, as I said before, is maybe different things that can threaten your survival. Cuz right now it's only...other players in any way shape or form. Either you get eaten or you can't find anyone to eat.

[sage yew]

That's balance, and has nothing to do with the mechanic itself
optimisation needs to be done obsiosly too at some point

[obsidian jetty]

yes, the camera lock is a good thing, the animation lock is not. I can spit out my food and run...why can't a Dryo? ^^

[sage yew]

optimisation needs to be done afterwards and my Idea is not ment to work with the current balancing

[north quiver]

camera lock needs a wider angle of view to make it realistic for the eyes on the side of the dinosaur’s head

[obsidian jetty]

well...wouldn't that also mean that dinos with eyes on the sides of their heads would need a blind spot right in front of them? Or blurry vision because of worse depth perception?

[north quiver]

sure if the devs are willing to put that in

[obsidian jetty]

don't think people would like that either tho 😄

[north quiver]

people do want a wider angle of view though to match the eyes. the suggestions advocating for it have a lot of people agreeing through the check marks

[sage yew]

yes, and no. As eating is an active process that takes up attention. Also you can't see with both eyes, while you are eating, or use the parallax effect to gain more information.

[north quiver]

animals look around while eating

[sage yew]

even for herbivores, with eyes on the side, is vision to be limited
not so much as for binocular animals, but yes

[obsidian jetty]

yes, because people don't want things that "inconvenience" them...

[sage yew]

you can stop eating and look around

just like animals do

[north quiver]

3 second delay for herbivores. carnivores have no problem with the delay because they don’t have it

[olive lake]

Deino got it but its not as a bad then herbs

[sage yew]

I never said that it's currently well implemented or balanced

The point is, limiting information in a survival game, is good and in this aspect, is doing The Isle a good approach

[north quiver]

yea it’s pretty sad rn

[north quiver]

to some extent. limiting it just to be an inconvenience that’s not realistically understandable gets under the skin of a lot of people

[sage yew]

because people hate comfort features being taken away from them
but the comfort was never meant to be, but a result of a AE game, which provided these features, by the ease of implementation basically for free

like setting camera rotation to the center of the 3D model and not attaching it to the center of the head rotation

but people not liking change, means it's a bad thing

[north quiver]

take this quick reference of a horse’s fov that I got from google

[sage yew]

that people don't like it, is more a sign that it's doing a great job

[north quiver]

people like change, just not change that doesn’t make sense and only leads to frustration

if it’s an understandable change then most people with reasoning typically agree with it

[sage yew]

yes and no. Because vision is MUCH better in the binocular zone and to use one eye properly, you need to use the parallax effect, which is not possible while eating. Animals usually only percive movement to the side of their vision and don't experience a perfect view on all things all the time. Espacially while they are distracted while eating

[north quiver]

a lot of animals are aware of their surroundings even as they eat because they’re pressured to be. if they’re not and they’re wholly distracted by eating, they’re easy prey. it’s natural selection

[sage yew]

you are not wrong, but you want more comfort while eating

[north quiver]

but a little system to detect movement not in their binocular vision would be good enough for me as long as the realistic blind spot is still there

yes. I wish to use my situational awareness to my advantage

[sage yew]

and by limiting the movement, is a nice approach to reflect that
not gonna argue on the implementation or balancing, because that's a whole different topic

[north quiver]

yea limiting it is a nice approach, just not very nice when it’s done unrealistically

[sage yew]

it's EA, everyone just got the same template
nothing to argue about

[obsidian jetty]

I kinda do believe that it's not the camera lock itself that's the issue but the combination of sounds being all over the place and the fact that you can't just stop eating at any given time as a herbi is what's making it annoying rn

[sage yew]

agree

[north quiver]

? this isn’t made by electronic arts

[sage yew]

Early Access = EA

[north quiver]

definitely plays a part

[sage yew]

this means it's in development

you talk about balancing, I talk about the mechanic

[north quiver]

yea it is early access. a lot will change but it’s sad that it’ll take months before the next update where they’ll change more things to where balance is even more messed up

[sage yew]

that's a different topic and should have nothing to do with the conversation

[north quiver]

what? chill it’s still on the topic. it’s not all the way in a different continent

[sage yew]

it is, because it's only a matter of time (hopefully)

[north quiver]

I’m afraid I don’t see your reasoning

[sage yew]

I'm just focusing on the idea, not how well done it is now

[north quiver]

c.c

[sage yew]

well, I would like to ask the question, what else could be limited, to improve the game

I'd suggest the stomach to make it a resource to manage
yes, balancing would need to be done too afterwards (to make nesting possible), but that shouldn't be the topic

as you currently have 2 stomach
one for food and one for water

[north quiver]

ai could be limited but then hunger drain would need to be changed to where it’d drain slower. if not the hunger drain, then diet drain would be a good trade off in imo

[obsidian jetty]

what about active time? as in...actually needing sleep?

[north quiver]

I’d be down for that as long as they halt the hunger drain or severely lower it while asleep lol

[sage yew]

not gonna Lie, I which there ware more AI, to make the game more lifely. Maybe even herds, but with low chance of catching them

[lapis swallow]

Being afk for a long amount of time does not sound like a good feature in a hardcore survival game (if sleeping is a necessity). But I would be down for sleeping to give you quicker healthregen and lower hunger and water drain, so it could be used as a healing tool

[sage yew]

1. Eat (fill your tiny stomach)
2. food becomes uneatable over time
3. 90% of food becomes wasted till you can eat again
4. you need to hunt another one to survive

[obsidian jetty]

I'd like to have a sleeping mechanic...like black screen, muffled sounds, but faster healing and higher nutrient drain (as you use those to heal) or something along those lines...

...would only work tho if herbis got foods that gave more nutrients than hunger like organs do for carnis

[sage yew]

but there is a resting mechanic already and to have for 10 min a black screen sounds not entertaining ....any ways to still make it pleasent?

[obsidian jetty]

uhm...could have a lullaby playing?

[sage yew]

interesting

[north quiver]

now that I think about it, I actually don’t think we need less or more ai. just need the ai to be more spread out rather than them being in certain areas all the time

[obsidian jetty]

like seriously, I don't really care about things being "pleasant" in that regard...just...if you're sleeping, you're sleeping and you shouldn't be able to see or hear what's going on around you, right? ^^

[sage yew]

for now it would be propably enough if AI would behave more realistically, as you just currently just abuse the ease of it to get easy food

[north quiver]

ever tried to sneak up on a sleeping deer or coyote lol?

[north quiver]

yea as it is now ai is just a walking buffet with no real challenge

[obsidian jetty]

I have not, no...but this is a game...and if "sleeping" is just an animation with no real impact I don't see the point of having it

[sage yew]

I would call logging off as sleeping, after 5 min of being logged off and logging back in, your resources (food and water) reduce by 50%

"logging off and in", becomes a resource

and a unfortunate disconnect from the internet would not effect you, as you have 5 min to go back in

[sage yew]

should be a thing, sleeping animals at night

[north quiver]

sleeping should impact vision because your eyes are closed and you can’t see but I don’t think it should impact hearing much. yeah animals can be deep sleepers just like people, but a lot are light sleepers so they don’t get shanked by other animals making noise around them

[obsidian jetty]

hm...nah, I think that wouldn't quite do it, even tho it might combat the "I log out during the night, because it's dark"-nonsense ^^

[sage yew]

resting: 50% recovery rate
sleeping: 100% recovery rate / impared vision by -90% -50% hearing
Logging off/sleeping: full recovery / -50% loss of resources

[sage yew]

I think to combat this would be worth it

[obsidian jetty]

but I don't think logging off should have any impact as...well...it would lead to you having to make sure you're well above 50% food and water at any time so you don't lose your dino when you log back on...which...might not always be possible

[sage yew]

no no, it always in %
so if you have 20/100 food, you'll end up with 10/100 food and not -30 food and you are dead

it cuts whatever you have just in halve, or by 30% or whatever

[obsidian jetty]

well still...I dunno how to word this...uhm...I just don't see why having to stop playing for whatever reason should have any impact on the game

[fossil pagoda]

This is a game aiming to be realistic, but not an animal simulator. Sleeping is not fun, and does not make sense when you already have resting. Indeed many changes aiming to increase realism end up making the game a bit more boring, like nights at the moment, which IMO for most species is just boring simply because you don't see. But I am not alone, the proof is that many people log off when night comes or just hide in a bush until they can see properly again.. it is sometimes hard to find an equilibrium between realism and at the same time keep the game fun.

[sage yew]

it could be an answer, for what happens "during" this time
as sleeping sound reasonable

[obsidian jetty]

Well the answer to that is simple: Nothing. As your dino literally just poofs...and goes back into its pokéball...it's not like Ark or whatever where your body remains on the server...^^

[sage yew]

and I like to be fully recovered when I start playing >_>'
like: you had 20 hr to recover, why am I still low on stam

[sage yew]

yea, I'm not for that too
but losing something and gaining something by logging off sounds interesting to me, especially if it comes to people that just avoid playing at night

I like the night o_o

[obsidian jetty]

I like the night too...but I enjoyed playing Dilo a lot, so I may be biased. Still I think sleeping should be a thing (even if not mandatory to maybe speed up healing by a fair bit), but logging off mh...yeah no, I can't get behind that idea 😉

[sage yew]

I would accept both ways, as laying down in the most volnurable position gives you the most benefits, if you want to save time, because healing up again can take ages

but I don't know if it wouldn't just dilute the survival aspect, as being not in the best conditions is an not unsignificant aspect

I see it like this, like needing to repair a car, while it's driving and there is always something new that breaks and requires attantion, so you stay motivated to keep moving, even in the worst conditions

basically like everyones human life
everyone is a car that needs more and more repair during it's life and it's never meant to stop, because then you are just dead

[obsidian jetty]

I get where you're coming from and I do somewhat agree. Is in part why nights are boring currently...there's basically nothing that can go wrong. It's the same as day just without light.

[fossil pagoda]

I just think the game should aim to increase the active things that the player can do...because the gameloop is quite inactive at the moment, once you ate and have your diet, you can just wait until you need to eat/drink again... which is realistic, but not fun.... Or use the game as a chat room. That's the biggest problem right now with the game IMO, and sleeping won't change that a bit

[obsidian jetty]

And when the predators stumble around as much as the prey there's not much going on. Is why we need those nocturnal pests.

[sage yew]

totally agree on that

[fossil pagoda]

I also prefer nights now than before, and I enjoy them if I am fully grown and have a decent vision.. but the range that you can see as a juvenile is just too short and I simply get bored of not seeing

[sage yew]

I really like to scavenge at night, because you can't be seen from a distance. What I dislike, is that you can always just turn on NV, like during the day, to bypass people hiding in the shedows

duno what speaks against it, making NV a passive ability at night and during the day you have adaptive aperture, which adapts a bit slower to the dark shadows, so you can use shadows actively to hide

[obsidian jetty]

but...that way you'd be forced to have that ugly grey spotlight on top of you at night 😦

[sage yew]

but without you just have 100% darkness around you, at least I play never without NV during the night

[obsidian jetty]

well that's the antigamma for you...and I actually do sometimes turn it off when I don't need to see what's right next to me and just want to...feel like it's actually night...^^

or around human structures where there is a light source

[urban flax]

Fun fact, nights in The Isle aren't realistic at all
Irl nights are much, much clearer

[sage yew]

hm, I don't see the need
if it would just fade away near light sources?

[obsidian jetty]

ye well it...doesn't tho ^^

[sage yew]

yea, but by putting just a "little bit" of light into it at night, you get again gamma abusers

[obsidian jetty]

hate to say it...but I really am sad that the other nv concept didn't get a chance...that one coulda become so much better than just ugly shades of grey...o.o

[sage yew]

duno, I can't come up with a "in between" solution

[urban flax]

That's the problem

But in all honesty... I think I would take gamma abusers over pitch-black nights

[sage yew]

I prefere the other thing around, or get rid of night in general
sunrise is also waaaaay too dark, as light scattering would illuminate everything

but to be honest, I never had anywhere a better night experience, as in The Isle

considering other solutions, the gray light cone is not that bad
well, balancing and optimisations needed aside

[urban flax]

Current NV is okay-ish
But I definitely hope it's not its last iteration

[obsidian jetty]

On gateway actually, in my opinion, the grey cone completely ruins the beauty of the nights

[sage yew]

probably not, as you can become invisible using monochromatic and bright color schemes, what makes it feel somewhat broken, as it should work the other way around

[urban flax]

I really wish we could retain some sort of color at night

[sage yew]

I'd suggest a red filter for the gray scale
but true colors? duno? maybe dichromatic

[urban flax]

Well one can assume an animal with good nightvision can still see colours during the night

[sage yew]

as moonlight has the same spectrum as the sun, but dimmer, it's possible

but color sensitive has a massive impact on light sensitivity
seeing in black and white is highly beneficial at night

[urban flax]

I honestly liked the concept of the outline NV, even though it was an eyesore
This iteration of NV gave you an advantage that didn't involve upping brightness
So it was compatible with having not pitch-black nights

[sage yew]

outline? do you have screenshots?

[tawdry oyster]

@urban flax From how I understood your suggestion, when a Raptor pounces another Raptor from the front, something like this will happen?

[urban flax]

What would happen is what happens currently in terms of animation
But the pouncer takes damage

[tawdry oyster]

Why would he take damage tho

If the other one is pinned on the ground

[urban flax]

Nope, maybe you can find some in older feedbacks

[sage yew]

ever tried to pet a cat while it's showing it's belly?

[urban flax]

It's pinned with its claws and jaws free and aiming towards it's aggressor
And it's actively scratching and defending itself

[tawdry oyster]

Oh ok, I haven’t really played Raptor in evrima so I don’t really know what the pouncing animation looks like

[sage yew]

you pin down and kill anything smaller then you

[icy lion]

Doesn't it already cause damage?

[tawdry oyster]

no idea

[icy lion]

I know it didn't previously, but I could've sworn it was added recently

[tawdry oyster]

Well that makes sense, I meant like when Raptor pounces Raptor

[sage yew]

me too and for raptors it applies for the same size too, only if the pouncer was low on stam you have a chance, but even tho you bleed out in seconds

[urban flax]

I don't think so ? But anyway in my suggestion I mentioned the attacker should take almost as much damage as the pinned
So it isn't a viable option to pounce from the front, unless you already have a big advantage or want to do a short pounce to get a slight upper hand

[icy lion]

Makes sense

[sage yew]

nope, attacker is always fine

[icy lion]

Having pounce reactions depend on angle would open up a lot of opportunities for countering it

[urban flax]

Plus I'm sure they already have the base code for it since we saw the proof-of-concept of a raptor pouncing a trike head and dying

[sage yew]

indeed, as you could keep suspicious players on the safe side

[urban flax]

The funniest thing is I literally thought of this while asleep

[tawdry oyster]

Lucid dream?

Or just regular

[urban flax]

Nah, just a regular dream
I was playing The Isle and this mechanic was in

[tawdry oyster]

Nice 🥲

I wanna try lucid dreaming but never works

Imagine playing The isle in a lucid dream 😮‍💨

[sage yew]

done it, still got killed by a carno

[urban flax]

Also in my dream spino was in the game since update 1 but nobody was playing it cuz it was too hard to grow
And a lot of people didn't actually believe its existence

[tawdry oyster]

Oof

[tawdry oyster]

I mean I’d still play an Apex even if it was too hard to grow

Especially Spino

[sage yew]

Tried to simulate night, using daylight values
the darker image is blue channel only (what I suggest)
the brighter image is red channel only (close to current night vision)

and yes, the sky is artificially darkened to fit the scheme

a darker tone swallows much better any silhouette, while dark colors stand out using the red channel during night

with broken anti gamma (bug) but shows how light values change using different color filters for BW image

btw. I don't have raw data to work with, so you have to imagine the NW, that's why it looks a "bit" broken, as I only want to convey the differences in black/white images

[urban flax]

interesting

[sage yew]

as being bright colored shouldn't be beneficial at night, while currently everyone colored dark stands totally out

[dire ridge]

i agree

[dire ridge]

@wispy parrot Deino cannibalism is HEAVILY intended

[sage yew]

unpopular opinion: but fresh blood remaining on your body (claws, mouth and other body parts) should be detectable for a short duration, to prevent "hit&run", as this is no GTA :'D

[dire ridge]

as a all, scent need MORE use imo. it is currently a little lackluster

[sage yew]

I'll push this idea again, instead of scent radar, scent "heat map"

[dire ridge]

as long it doesn't tank fps like the particle iteration of it. Im all for a better scent lol

[valid carbon]

@sage yew We aren't snakes, honestly they need to add wind and a scent detection. Also blood detection is lame can be hard to detect in forested areas which it should be present on leaves as the dinosaur runs through them.

[sage yew]

I didn't said that dinos should have heat detection.

"Also blood detection is lame can be hard to detect in forested"
That's neither untrue nor contradicting with my proposal, so don't know what the correct answer to this should be, maybe.... don't make it like that?

[valid carbon]

"Maybe we should have a heat map" Sorry we don't see heat.

[sage yew]

not a heat map of heat!
but a heat map of last actions that took place on this location, represented by colored clouds which represent different things, like rapid movement, fights, bleed, dead flash and what not

Im not talking about heat!

[dire ridge]

a scent map

[sage yew]

https://www.indifoot.com/image/public/uploads/blog/1622030282_G5dmaVLrnz.jpg?w=2000&h=1326

something like this

[dire ridge]

like if something stayed somewhere for a long time, it will leave a "mark"

[sage yew]

a mark, or a trail, which could shift with the wind, or defuse over time and increase inacuracy with it, which you could follow

a scent "heat map"

[dire ridge]

a trail was present at the beginning of evrima, they scrap it for particle and scrapped the particle afterward x)

[sage yew]

so you can play Legolas and "see" what happened with elvish eyes :D

[valid carbon]

We had somethign similar like that when evirma first released and they tossed it, I liked it actually besides the foot prints being to accurate to your location

[sage yew]

basically, make scent visible

[dire ridge]

yeah, it was a thing at some point

but performance issue killed the previous iteration of it if im not mistaken

[valid carbon]

Blood showed up on direction and scent made a direction on the location to fresh blood, besides the footprint being spot on it was nice

[sage yew]

maybe we will have another chance when nanite becomes a thing and other features from UE5 =/

oh wait, you are not talking about this ugly colored balls flying at you thing?

[dire ridge]

in any case, scent need more application and an "upgrade" overall

[sage yew]

that's working like a radar

[valid carbon]

Yeah, blood was neat but footprints highlighted from a distance and were to giving on location

[dire ridge]

i talked about two different iteration, the actual yellow cloud/trail was the first and after that it was the particle/ball that was flying toward you

[sage yew]

yea, saw that, that was pretty ugly
I mean more of a crossection of scent

and scent has emission stage and a diffusion stage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZHwvJlnlDs
not like this

it needs to be inaccurate, so it doesn't allow you to use it like radar
but precise enough that you can make out your next steps

[dire ridge]

i was talking about a much older one

[sage yew]

older?

[dire ridge]

yeah, same color but it was a huge cloud coming out of the playable, making actual cloud trail

[valid carbon]

it was like balls that flew at you from a direction.

[dire ridge]

that was f up xD

[sage yew]

can't find anything to this, you have screenshots or videos?

[dire ridge]

not talking about that

[sage yew]

so it was the balls.... this back and forth xD

[dire ridge]

no sorry, it was really at the launch of the recode

[valid carbon]

The blue footprints that appeared as they were running and after 50 footprints they would disappear which made a active trail as the dinosaur ran?

[sage yew]

flying orbs are basically early concept of radar scent as we have today

[valid carbon]

A scented cloud in the area is a better description than heat though, like a read mist the floats above the ground, when they add wind could add a hazy color to the direction compass to stimulate smelling a dinosaur upwind from yourself.

[sage yew]

"heat map" is totally understandable for me, as it's really not that uncommon to explain stuff with that... but never mind

but "scent clouds" is fine too I guess

"heat map" showcases areas of most interest for example, not heat

but I would really like to get rid of the compass, as navigating by south and north is so human like

and only directed by scent, not to my favourite locations, but to locations of most interest

[valid carbon]

Making dinosaurs have bodily functions after the perform strenuous actives/eat/loiter for a while thus tracking by excrement and giving it a further scent range would be very helpful.

[sage yew]

yea, could be put together with "heat management" (this time it's really heat), where your body warms up after rapid movement, which creates a stronger smell

[valid carbon]

I've noticed a lot of canni groups tracking by PT scouts to locate other herds lately in official, realism has taken a loss here. 😛

[sage yew]

tracking pteras?

[valid carbon]

Yeah they can scout for large herds for the pvp herd to fight.

[sage yew]

assumed this for a long time by now
it was so dubious sometimes

but how to counter this, really no idea

[valid carbon]

Last night we had 8 tennos and 2 steggos and we had a big battle of like 6-7 tennos 2 stegos and a few carnos come fight us, they used two ptera's to find us.

Ooops 1 stego then 2nd was a hatchling

[sage yew]

dang....

uncool

or when you fight people, they sometimes return as hipsy and turn the game around by constantly blinding you =_=

[valid carbon]

Was funny though they even brought deinos, was like a chronicle battle of Narnia.

[sage yew]

but if haven't mistaken it, will gateway no longer have spawn points

[dire ridge]

wdym ?

[valid carbon]

To be honest with the lack of dinosaurs most servers are beginning to due herds of mix packing, basically cannibals vs non-cannibals

[sage yew]

species related randomized spawn points, no longer NW, South or stuff

[dire ridge]

oh ok

[sage yew]

noticed too and for few days now many raptors mix with carnos
I assume that raptors got tired by the wall of death and carnos started to show mercy, now they all pack D:

[valid carbon]

Yeah, that is why youll notice dinosaurs with all white markings so they can distinguish enemy and foe, discord comms defeat local chat.

[sage yew]

but that's probably just temporary, at least to this extend, as balancing is just non existent right now

[valid carbon]

I feel 6.0 unbalanced the current balance they had going, elders and perks will just unbalance things more as it should of been on the roadmap first.

[sage yew]

but to be fair, broken hitboxes cant be balanced, without fixing the issue. Balancing might even work well, but not under current circumstances - hard to tell

[valid carbon]

Yeah steggo's tail swipe is to op it can hit up to their head without alt turn, makes mobility for flanking head impossible a omni can't even get a headshot because of height issue and hitbox, Carnos charge has insane range.. Pachy's/Carno's/Stego hardly use stamina for their RMB attack.. Teno is decent for tail slam stamina and Omni needs a balance on damage for pounce and bucking, I'd say pounce needs to be very low damage, very high bleed x2 if sprinting.. Lower buck by adding a low stamina cost to the attacker and higher stamina drain to the victim which changes to lower stamina cost to victim and higher to attacker the longer they buck.

[sage yew]

agree, but you forgot to mention that stegos can hide behind trees, but still slam through them

[valid carbon]

They can hit up through rocks also

[sage yew]

the jungle should be probably raptors realm, but the jungle with all these trees and stones is just the perfect antagonist for them

[valid carbon]

Jungle doesn't give a bonus to raptors they are to short it adds a bane if anything, give raptors hud view through bushes like a jungle boon

[sage yew]

it's a pure nightmare to fight as a raptor in the jungle, at some size even a bush puts you down from a pounce

there is a lot more to be done, before a jungle becomes advantages for raptors

[valid carbon]

In legacy in the jungle bigger dinosaurs view angle is distorted by the canopy, where raptors don't have this issue

[sage yew]

....that's a kinda lame "gameplay mechanic"

[valid carbon]

It's still a nightmare for raptors fighting in the jungle, everyone likes to say they would do good in the forest but it all comes down to blind biting which doesn't favor the raptor

[sage yew]

you can basically use everything inside a jungle, to counter raptors

while a stego just plows with his tail through everything

[rare fractal]

@slim halo
Carno's turn rate has never been lower than it is now.
Charge is not an ambush tool, ambush carno is a huge community meme it's one of if not the most ill suited predator in the roster for ambush, charge is a pursuit tool now...making it actually useful for carnos niche...it's only issues are the lack of a startup stam cost, a lack of consequences when hitting solid objects, it's hitbox, and it's CC range being far too large...functionally tho it's fantastic

Carno is large, tall, lives in the most conspicuous biomes in the game, and is specialized for hunting targets most suited to reacting instantly to threats with speed agility and acceleration...it's not an ambush hunter primarily by any means

[sage yew]

I don't know if what you claim is so intended as you want us to believe they are, like why shouldn't carno be optimised for ambush. Did devs said anything to this?

[slim halo]

I don't even know how to respond to him, carno is supposed to be an ambush predator, he wasn't supposed to be agile. He was supposed to surprise his victims with bursts of speed, he's stiff and not supposed to have good turn, he trades speed for agility, UTAH is supposed to be the agile one,

Now it can hardly out maneuver carno.

[sage yew]

if it wasn't the hitbox, it would be possible

[slim halo]

Literally

I say tweak carnos charge and turn rate

And hitbox aswell

No reason it should be able to spam a ram that hits me from across the map

[rare fractal]

It's quite literally not...where are you getting this bizarre idea....

[sage yew]

or just spam ram running through every bush you might be hiding in

[slim halo]

Bro what

[rare fractal]

This is literally only applicable in the open plains and only because carno's chargebox is absurd rn

[cyan flame]

Because it makes sense. Carno was never designed to be an ambush predator, and it was terribly designed to be one at that. Charge wasn't even good for that kind of hunting style. And carno using charge to get an agility boost to pursue that agile prey is reasonable, because without, you never land a hit on a agile prey item.

[rare fractal]

Because omni is significantly more agile than carno is at all life stages

[cyan flame]

Where do people get the "ambusher carno" from even? Nothing about its kit makes it play like a deino.

[slim halo]

I'm literally not even gonna bother.

[tall hearth]

It's a pursuit predator, like a cheetah. Every playable can ambush but none of them are specialized for it as of right now.

Down the production line, allo is planned to be specifically an ambush predator. How itll be designed specifically to ambush is kind of up in the air, but its speculated by the community that it could get something similar to the ambush system from legacy.

But carno is not. Stop trying to say it is. It's a pursuit predator that can use cover to ambush like everything else but it's not an ambusher

[lapis swallow]

Maybe the fast charge that stuns you

[rare fractal]

You're literally fighting the game on this one...

[lapis swallow]

But that is part of a pursuit predator kit too

[rare fractal]

It's actually more suited for pursuit given that it makes noise upon activation and requires a full sprint to activate...not that that's difficult but it's definitely not favorable to stealth

And again, plains based abnormally tall small game hunter.....yes clearly designed for ambush

[sage yew]

"It's a pursuit predator, like a cheetah."
From where do you got this information? It's oddly specific

and carno is maybe not right now an ambush predator, because of the lack of playables and it will become more feasible, once carno is not a top tier apex predator anymore

also I think that devs just "played" with the settings, to see what will happen and do not necessarily intend to keep him like that

[cyan flame]

If you need a start up, you're loud, hard to hide, and you need to be running (which means minimum distance to target to even attempt), you're not well designed for ambushing. It's really that simple.

All you have to do is look at where the playable lives, the biome, the mechanic, and how to go about ambushing, and it should be quite obvious.