#toki nama

362 messages Ā· Page 1 of 1 (latest)

jaunty nymph
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jan jami makes her dream version of toki pona

i will digitize this later

IMG_4155.jpg
snow ginkgo
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newspaper title

tired wigeon
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chatting to follow because i like this it's cool

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anyways as the self proclaimed jasima enjoyer i would like to inquire about the ante lili to the kon of jasima

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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okie dokie :3

jaunty nymph
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i think it's sort of like both sama and ante?

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both elements are important. an echo is a jasima because it's the same sound but reverberating from a different source

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a mirror is a jasima because it's the same image reflected off of a surface

tired wigeon
jaunty nymph
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an imperfect reflection feels like a good summary

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it's also like. when using jasima as a metaphor it almost implies that one can't exist without the other

tired wigeon
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as long as it isn't mal- from esperanto ale li pona /zmusi

jaunty nymph
jaunty nymph
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monsuta alt glyph is to not look like kiki and also because it's kind of a pain to draw all the squiggles without it looking odd

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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i like most of them yea !!

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no pepper nama(ko) tho šŸ˜”

jaunty nymph
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yeah i like it in theory but it's also kinda hard to draw good i never get it to look right
same with the mortar and pestle misikeke glyph

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i generally like to keep it as simple as possible

tired wigeon
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i like pepper namako it helps differentiate it from sin and (backwards sin) majuna

jaunty nymph
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yeah me too

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i just have skill issues

tired wigeon
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lol fair

jaunty nymph
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i might though. sitelen pona reform is on the agenda

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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also is majuna included here

jaunty nymph
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yes

tired wigeon
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okay yeah i thought so since the nita glyph has majuna there

jaunty nymph
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yeah it was originally one of the words i shortened but then i changed my mind

tired wigeon
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majun (pa e mama sina)

jaunty nymph
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honestly misikeke is kinda lame in general. i might just get a new etymology. also tbf ka makes discussing health and stuff a little easier

tired wigeon
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truee

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i can't remember the last time i used misikeke honestly

jaunty nymph
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it's a little too niche

tired wigeon
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pona ka

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anyways i really like joku

jaunty nymph
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ku, no changes: tonsi, kin, lanpan, leko, majuna
ku, spelling changes: linuwi, nama
ku, some changes: monsuta, jasima
rare existing words: puwa, kiki, taki, powe, usawi, jule, kepa, nita, kan
new words: ka, nula, susu, isi, joku, ta, sala

total words: 145

tired wigeon
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good number

jaunty nymph
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pretty much all of the rare existing words are semantically shifted and changed

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ta is the only real grammar addition, but it's also a pure addition since i'm leaving backwards compatibility for existing preverbs
i also added stuff for disambiguation which is chill

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oh. i also intend to do anu reform at some point

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remove anu seme and add a question tag is what i'm leaning towards

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anu seme is literally just a grammar borrow from german i think

tired wigeon
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add me /zmusi

opaque horizonBOT
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me
usage

sandbox (no book)

definition

[question particle modifier]

see also

a, kin, seme

āš ļø This proposed word is in the sandbox. It is not in use by the community.
tired wigeon
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glyph li weka

jaunty nymph
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i think i had "une" in my drafts

tired wigeon
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ini ā† toki Inli "innit" /zmusi

jaunty nymph
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i am obsessed with "ja" in esperanto, i could see it going as a question tag

tired wigeon
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honestly for a purely joke particle i actually really like the function of me (word)

jaunty nymph
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esperanto does questions pretty well

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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or not?

jaunty nymph
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ĉu is. what is ĉu

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it's a question particle

tired wigeon
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i don't remember anythin about esperanto i do like cxu tho

jaunty nymph
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it can go at the start of a sentence too

tired wigeon
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cxu vi estas en la domo or whatever

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cxu sini lias lon la tomo

jaunty nymph
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ja

tired wigeon
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i don't enjoy the aesthetics of esperanto but from the little i know of the function it's actually really cool

jaunty nymph
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u sina lon tomo?

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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ne is ala right

jaunty nymph
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yeah

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ĉu ne is functionally equivalent to anu seme (you can also do ĉu jes)

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also on my question list: does soko make the cut? i don't personally like soko's current form

tired wigeon
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merge soko and linliwu

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idk in what direction

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but i think a merge is feasible

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call mycelium a type of linluwi and just call the caps kili or kasi or whatever

jaunty nymph
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like i get it but it feels like a stretch

jaunty nymph
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that way we don't have to do the "pu=traditional/orthodox" idea that i hate

tired wigeon
jaunty nymph
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more of an argunent against soko though

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sorry soko enjoyers you're not valid

tired wigeon
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i mean it's your nasin and linuwi's already there might as well put it to work

jaunty nymph
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true true true

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soko is just kasi tawa mi that's why im not a big fan

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another potential nimisin is a split of ko into powders and goop. but also i've been kind of mean to ko by adding puwa and taki

tired wigeon
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i personally use soko instead of linluwi because i watched like two videos about fungal networks once and that's just embedded in my brain now, but if anything the argument is even stronger the other way around (soko li linuwi anu kasi)

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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also nula lol

jaunty nymph
jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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alama !!

jaunty nymph
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alama is strongly in the running

tired wigeon
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that's interesting but imo i don't think it entirely needs its own word

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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susu powe - baby formula

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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i suppose

jaunty nymph
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it also makes like. it makes susu a little better. adds stuff like wool/leather

tired wigeon
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yea that sounds like a good upgrade

jaunty nymph
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strongly considering it

tired wigeon
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please keep susu the word tho it's fun to say šŸ™

jaunty nymph
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overall goals:

  1. new words should have the toki pona vibe. should work in a lot of scenarios, have a big semantic space
  2. make it easier to say difficult concepts, or simple concepts that toki pona is a bit convoluted about
  3. stay mutually intelligible with standard toki pona
tired wigeon
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pona

jaunty nymph
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i should probably go. have been chilling in the car for like 50 minutes

tired wigeon
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tawa pona a

jaunty nymph
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two ideas:

chance, blessing, luck, fortune
child, product, result

tired wigeon
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kili :3

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also chance is pretty ken

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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... i don't follow

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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ohhh

jaunty nymph
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because yeah nanpa tu la obviously ken. but nasa for "randomness" always felt a tad strange

tired wigeon
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i was about to say jule since you already have it but it doesn't look like the "erratic" part of the definition was kept so i nunno

jaunty nymph
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also like "blessing" is an interesting part

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it could also be "curse"

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then again that's kinda usawi

tired wigeon
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luck?

jaunty nymph
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usawi could work for this stuff honestly. the only problem is i added stuff like "faith" to the definition, inspired by other words

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usawi is kind of like. "ijo pi sona ala" with vague sewi connotations in its current form

tired wigeon
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i think faith could be included into sala

jaunty nymph
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i also know that some people dislike usawi's "magic" definition, especially as a verb

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usawi is weird

tired wigeon
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mi usawi e sina - i magic you

jaunty nymph
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maybe we just get rid of that word being usawi entirely

tired wigeon
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yeah i would not understand that

jaunty nymph
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but also like belief/faith + magic goes together. think like miracles and stuff

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also "to believe in" is one of those spaces that is hard to express because there's no word that maps onto the concept of thinking

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pilin? but pilin isn't quite right because it feels kinda subjective. beliefs are stronger than just a pilin

tired wigeon
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i'd probably say something like "mi lon nasin sewi Jesu"

jaunty nymph
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sure, but also like there's a difference between being in a faith and actually believing it

tired wigeon
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is there?

jaunty nymph
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like. mi lon nasin sewi Jesu. i go to church every sunday, i enjoy it, but i don't hold the beliefs associated with it

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i exist within Christianity

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i have more complex thoughts about this kinda thing than most so there's definitely inherent bias

tired wigeon
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fair

jaunty nymph
# tired wigeon kili :3

also i dislike this nasin because it's a bit too large of a stretch from conventional usage

tired wigeon
# jaunty nymph like. mi lon nasin sewi Jesu. i go to church every sunday, i enjoy it, but i don...

i feel like toki pona philosophy la (and mi la) you could reasonably contain those two within the same semantic space and clarify separately

if you exist within Christianity but don't hold the beliefs, then say that: mi lon nasin sewi Jesu, taso nasin mi li ante (anu toki sama)
fells kinda like the wile = want / need thing. if you don't want to do something but you need to do it, what is it that wants you to do it, if not yourself?

jaunty nymph
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sure
but also we're making wacky stuff anywhom

tired wigeon
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fair

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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nimi ni li seme

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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ah

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wait i think that one's on linku now

jaunty nymph
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good nimisin and that thread are two of the main places where i draw stuff from

opaque horizonBOT
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siwala
usage

sandbox (no book)

definition

the quality of being outside of understanding but accepted as reality; the quality of being not wished to be understood by one for the benefits associated with not understanding

see also
āš ļø This proposed word is in the sandbox. It is not in use by the community.
tired wigeon
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hey yeah it is

jaunty nymph
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kana is also a large influence on how i reworked powe

tired wigeon
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kana is cool i like it

jaunty nymph
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i think it's more fun to make existing bad nimi sin better

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okay bad is harsh

tired wigeon
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o pona e nimi sin

jaunty nymph
tired wigeon
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joku paucal real

jaunty nymph
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beta test nimisin

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arabic (more broadly semitic i guess) and gaelic are two really based language families that toki pona ignores so hard

tired wigeon
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true

jaunty nymph
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uh oh i'm slipping into "making a new language" territory

tired wigeon
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jan jamious tokiponido when

jaunty nymph
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now

jaunty nymph
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okay that all aside

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i should document the version of this where i don't just remake toki pona from scratch

limber prawnBOT
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you did one before right

jan jamiā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) i might though. sitelen pona reform is on the agenda

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ni la sina lon ala nasin ni li lon kulupu ni

jan jamiā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) like. mi lon nasin sewi Jesu. i go to church every sunday, i enjoy it, but i don't hold the beliefs ā€¦

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anu seme

tired wigeon
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susu

jaunty nymph
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remidner to jami: contineu this

tired wigeon
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i agree

tired wigeon
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anyways can we have me :3

sona pona
List of marginal words in ... usefulquotes

This is a list of marginal words in the ... usefulquotes document that are not discussed elsewhere on this wiki.
The original definitions of these words, as copied onto ... usefulquotes, are notes saved to a bot on the ma pona pi toki pona Discord server. For the definitions section of the document, jan Pensa only copied notes for words not pres...

jaunty nymph
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meh

tired wigeon
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indeed it is

umbral lantern
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Cool, they look useful. Add a word for glass too

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I was thinking of the word juli (from the Korean ģœ ė¦¬)
juli means glass or transparent

jaunty nymph
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mi

regal fossil
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mi lukin lon tenpo kama

nova willow
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Sounds like a more appropriate name for ta is ā€œhead verb markerā€ especially with this example

mi ta wile lon linja

jaunty nymph
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yeah, i suppose so; it's a multipurpose word

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it marks preverbs and seperates verbs

nova willow
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Is the paper in the photo still all included in your most recent reckoning?

jaunty nymph
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mostly because it's meant to maintain backwards compatibility as an optional feature

jaunty nymph
jaunty nymph
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yeah that one

nova willow
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Any reason you wouldnā€™t like this to be on a Google Doc?

jaunty nymph
nova willow
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sona

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mi weka tan supa lape la mi ken alasa ta pali e lipu ni a a

nova willow
jaunty nymph
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i guess not

nova willow
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muhaha

limber prawnBOT
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wouldn't this be mi wile ta lon linja, at least with standard ta?

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) Sounds like a more appropriate name for ta is ā€œhead verb markerā€ especially with this example

mā€¦

tired wigeon
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doesn't wile not require ta since it's already a preverb

nova willow
dry marshBOT
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Psst, Mafuyu (@worldly ice), you have been pinged by @nova willow.

nova willow
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Good catch

limber prawnBOT
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many use it anyway for consistency

meli Siliwa šŸ’œ āŖ©(į¢į—œį¢)āŖØā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) doesn't wile not require ta since it's already a preverb

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ta is not just for making new preverbs, it's meant as a marker for preverbs
"mi wile moku" could mean, say, "food wants me" (as in I am the want of food)
"mi wile ta moku" is unambiguously a wile preverb phrase
it's backwards compatible because mi wile moku could also use a preverb

nova willow
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or you could say mi ta wile moku

limber prawnBOT
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this is a very weird analysis to meā€”ta always goes after a word, to mark it as a preverb

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) In that situation ā€œlon linjaā€ is the head ā€œverbā€ I guess! So marks the head verb or the verb preposiā€¦

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you could not

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) or you could say mi ta wile moku

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as someone who's known ta users and used it in glossing that's not what it does

nova willow
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o lukin e lipu

limber prawnBOT
nova willow
limber prawnBOT
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I honestly took that as a mistake

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) ni li nasin ā€œtoki namaā€ ala

nova willow
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nanpa anpa

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that would be a significant assumption to leave unchecked haha

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But also what is the benefit of rejecting my analysis?

limber prawnBOT
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I guess that kind of makes sense now that you've explained it, but I've never seen ta used like that

nova willow
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Why would mi ta wile moku be a bad use case?

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Other than that itā€™s something others arenā€™t accustomed to

limber prawnBOT
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in the common use of ta, which admittedly isn't that common, your analysis is just straight-up not rightā€”ta marks the previous word as a preverb, so if there's no previous word you don't use ta

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) But also what is the benefit of rejecting my analysis?

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I guess jan Jami's changed that up and I just didn't notice

icy hill
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hi kepa creator here

nova willow
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Yeah I understand that perspective ā˜ŗļø I guess Iā€™m saying ā€œmine adds more flexibility without affecting any existing use cases or making anything any more confusingā€

limber prawnBOT
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no yeah that's fair it's just not how ta works/is used (outside of toki nama apparently)

nova willow
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And jan jami seemed to feel similarly when I mentioned it hehe

icy hill
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ta seems like an anti-preverb prepositional particle here

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a postverb if you will /j

limber prawnBOT
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actually @woeful inlet&: any thoughts on ta with no preverb before it?

safe bane
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toki pona is rich with prepositional markers, so a postpositional one feels odd and out of place (la kinda counts but you know)

just giving my perspective after reading this, i think this hasn't been mentioned

icy hill
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the humble la:

safe bane
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it's interpositional actually

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so its fine

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< has just made up that term

icy hill
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yeah I mean it just says two utterances are related somehow

nova willow
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  • mi wile [ta] moku - i want to eat
  • mi ta wile moku - I desire foodily
  • mi ken [ta] lon tomo - I can be home
  • mi ta ken lon tomo - I am enabled in the house
icy hill
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but anyways typical ta always felt like ā€œthe thing after me is the non-preverbā€

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so itā€™s fitting for toki nama to extend this more robustly

limber prawnBOT
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I guess I am also somewhat conflating ta and ja's nasins of dealing with preverb marking

icy hill
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are they not the same?

limber prawnBOT
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one of the main ta users we've known used it more like ja

safe bane
icy hill
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although I remember reading that ta seems more strict than ja

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Iā€™m a ja enjoyer anyways (but thatā€™s because Iā€™m also a lo enjoyer)

nova willow
limber prawnBOT
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with ja, you use a ja after each preverb, which allows for modifying them

nova willow
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Got it, so one wouldnā€™t be able to modify preverbs with ta

limber prawnBOT
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with ta, you use a ta after all the preverbs (and after the ta you start the main verb if there is one)

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(the only situations where there wouldn't be one are prepositional)

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(in which case the main verb is effectively the preposition, like you mentioned earlier)

nova willow
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I think that a prepositional phrase can be called the ā€œmain verbā€, just not the ā€œheadā€

safe bane
limber prawnBOT
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actually I am so tired right now I should not be using my bandwidth on preverb marking

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ā† cw blood ||got four vials of blood drawn out of her arm maybe hours ago||

nova willow
safe bane
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i was sure i was following your usage exactly, huh

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mi lape a, i might com back to this sometime

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likely not at all tbh

nova willow
# safe bane pona la this allows for easy preverb modification with no ambiguity mi wile sona...

"ta" says "all the preverbs are now done, next is the main verb."

  • mi wile sona ta jo - I want to know to have, just like regular preverbs. In your case, you were treating sona as a modifier for wile rather than another preverb
  • mi wile ta sona jo - this one matches
  • mi wile ta sona ta jo - this would be confusing, because the first ta would be saying "no more preverbs after this! next is the main verb." and then there is suddenly a second ta.
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ja is different (and not in this nasin) - it says only "we are now ending a single preverb, which might have been a phrase with a modifier. There might have been other preverb phrases before this one, but they are out of scope for me. There might be more preverbs after me, but that is out of scope too."

tired wigeon
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ooh finally toki nama discourse i knew this day would come /zmusi

snow ginkgo
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what is this and why am i in it

tired wigeon
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jan jami's toki pona dialect / maybe separate tokiponido now

snow ginkgo
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a okay

jaunty nymph
jaunty nymph
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lon la, "ta" is nonessential

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it's not the main focus, the content words are

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similar reasons la i am rethinking kan's inclusion

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i better would like a nimi sin for glass, clearness, unobstruction.
similar to nele except nele is a cringe backformation and i don't like that nasin of making words

icy hill
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I made natan once actually

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thatā€™s a lot like this

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it was also used for ghosts

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Iā€™m thinking of revitalizing the concept of a word for glass, mainly being inspired by Cornell ads about how we live in ā€œthe Glass Ageā€

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yet another word defined based on how toki pona exists in the modern era (e.g. pan, pika)

icy hill
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basically a draft

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I also think nele is cringe
thus I often forget it exists lol

nova willow
tired wigeon
icy hill
nova willow
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aaa sona

tired wigeon
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tenpo pan

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tenpo pika

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tenpo natan

jaunty nymph
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i decided i don't like shortening kepeken. nama is better and more phonemically accurate tho

tired wigeon
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i didn't even realize kepeken was shortened here tbh

shell herald
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kepeken is too short

tired wigeon
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loan usilisanto from spanish boom a word longer than kepeken

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take that kepeners

woeful inlet
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ta marks the preverbs of a sentence, and they usually correspond to a pattern

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the final one being semantically equivalent to uhhh "jan mute li tawa tomo pali la ni li nasin" or something

woeful inlet
# nova willow

i'd be wary of disambiguating like this, there are much better ways of accomplishing this that are much less confusing at a glance

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(la, for example)

woeful inlet
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in general i dont have very many thoughts about ta though. i've generally moved on from nimi sin development into my own minimal-language projects

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maybe i'll talk about it here at some point (it's not nemune, that's being taken over by another contributor)

icy hill
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:o !

tired wigeon
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kana is peak

tired wigeon
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susu

icy hill
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susu: lapan nanpa tu

jaunty nymph
limber prawnBOT
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that's what I was trying to get across!

ilo Powa šŸ¦¾ā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) uhhh ... doesn't mean anything

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jan Suko (and jan Jami?) seemed to be proposing it as marking the main verb (before) instead of marking the preverb (after), which in some cases is the same but can lead to strange things like this

nova willow
dry marshBOT
tired wigeon
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thats the one sentence i couldn't wrap my head around last time i read the ta page

limber prawnBOT
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"this" being "ta" immediately after "li" with no preverb

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) Iā€™m having trouble figuring out what is ā€œthisā€ in ā€œstrange things like thisā€

nova willow
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To me it seems equally meaningless either way

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Except that if the interpretation is that it marks the main verb, itā€™s technically less confusing since thereā€™s technically still a main verb (but it doesnā€™t really need marking)

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sina ta pona
If ā€œtaā€ marks a preverb, then ā€œsinaā€ is a preverb and the sentence has no subject. This is as ungrammatical as something like ā€œli sina ponaā€
If ā€œtaā€ marks the main verb then it can just be omitted without changing the sentence. Iā€™d say this is weird and should be avoided, like putting an ā€œeā€ after ā€œkepekenā€

jaunty nymph
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ta is too weird for this project tbh

cobalt goblet
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the notebook contains my clong

limber prawnBOT
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yes. and what I'm saying is that the intended and used interpretation (outside of this concept, at least) is that it marks a preverb

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) It sounds like youā€™re saying that this scenario depends on whether one thinks that ā€œtaā€ marks a prevā€¦

nova willow
dry marshBOT
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Psst, Mafuyu (@worldly ice), you have been pinged by @nova willow.

nova willow
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Doesnā€™t ta more so act as a separator between all preverbs and the main verb?

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i.e. there should not be more than one ta per predicate

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like where would you put ta in this sentence

mi wile sona pona e sijelo li ken ala kama sona

tired wigeon
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i'm assuming mi wile sona ta pona li ken ala (ja?) kama ta sona

limber prawnBOT
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sorry, phrased badly

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) I thought that was ja

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"it marks preverbs"?

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it goes after the preverbs

nova willow
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yeah it goes after the set of all preverbs in a given predicate

limber prawnBOT
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depends on the intended meaning

mi wile ta sona pona e sijelo li ken ala kama ta sona
I want to know the body well, but cannot learn
mi wile sona ta pona e sijelo li ken all ta kama sona
I want to know how to heal the body, but cannot come knowingly

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) like where would you put ta in this sentence

mi wile sona pona e sijelo li ken ala kama sona

nova willow
#

in other words, it marks the main verb in the context of preverbs

limber prawnBOT
#

this is why people use ta

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perhaps

jan Sukoā€„ā†©ļø

[Reply to:](#1288614516581601320 message) in other words, it marks the main verb in the context of preverbs

tired wigeon
icy hill
#

understanding ta as a main verb marker makes a lot more sense than preverb marker

#
  • makes it prepositional, like every other particle (aside from la which is Weird)
#

okay maybe now I like ta

tired wigeon
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i like how this has basically just become the ta reanalysis thread

limber prawnBOT
#

true

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I'm not sure whether I stand by my original point, but I've kept arguing it

tired wigeon
#

i don't even like ta as a word so i don't have a horse in this race i'm just talking for the love of the game

jaunty nymph
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e a sports

tired wigeon
icy hill
#

jule as sports.....

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that's pretty sick actually

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reminds me of how i realized polymers are kepa today in class

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it's funny how many times i've been like "waow kepa for real life" in my material science class

tired wigeon
#

quite awesome

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i wanna try experimenting with this some more i feel like it could be pretty awesome

icy hill
#

same

nova willow
#

@jaunty nymph can I post my Google Doc already? šŸ˜

jaunty nymph
#

yea

jaunty nymph
#

sin! sin la mi o lukin

#

i have also been doing a sitelen pona remake thingy

#

may incorporate that

digital haven
#

also i'm p sure susu is in tok pisin too. all roads lead to rome (and by rome i mean port moresby)

limber prawnBOT
#

yeah it is it means "milk"

nova willow
# jaunty nymph jan jami makes her dream version of toki pona i will digitize this later

here is a transcription of this doc using Google Docs, along with unresolved comments that I made over a year ago in an attempt to help clarify stuff at the time
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-utKexAXQePsJzh1UBTZe7OMPErYvx23IHgQixcxVn0

Google Docs
toki nama li tan jan jami

toki nama nimi pu ale li lon nimi pu/ku sama tonsi kin lanpan leko nimi li kama lili kepe li tan nimi kepeken linuwi li tan nimi linluwi misike li tan nimi misikeke nama li tan nimi namako kon li ante lili jasima monsuta olin lape nimi pi kepeken lili puwa fluffy, soft,...