good nimisin

[stuck spear]

nanpa: number
NaN: not a number
pa: not
nanpa: not not a number, i.e. number

[severe sun]

suwete pi sijelo san

[kindred pollen]

.
alama

The semantic range of the word 'mark' is extensive. I can offer a suggestion from Arabic, which is 'alama' from علامة.
( sitelen is best for other meanings )

Some meanings of the word alama

sign, mark, denotation, indication, symptom, identifier, evidence, marker, indicator, symbol, token , result, effect, aftermath, scar , smudge, spot , clue , hind , introduction, scratch, address, proof , flag , remains , stain , damage , used......

[severe sun]

k alama

[glad dune]

sitelen

[wet lintel]

titi

[kindred pollen]

sitelen is usually used for things that were created, but these don't need to be organized.

This is why I feel mark is not a best fit in the semantic space of sitelen

[glad dune]

how so?

what makes the two different, in more detail?

[kindred pollen]

alama - Refers to marks, whether visual or non-visual, indicating past, present, or future events, as well as guiding signs directing towards something.

[glad dune]

I still don’t follow

[wispy vortex]

this is just toki and toki nasin now isnt it

sitelen ni li toki e nasin

[kindred pollen]

Yes , sitelen ni li toki e ni : will work in most cases

[outer needle]

soki
Combination of Sona & Toki: To have a thought, to think to yourself, to have an idea, ect
||First attempt at making a good nimisin (if there’s an obscure word for this idk because I only know the core, common and some uncommon words)||

[severe sun]

@covert hatch le soki onpa???

[covert hatch]

mercury_ii_oxide

[outer needle]

random sitelen pona for soki (second one looks good but too much like ijo imo)

[split saddle]

sound somewhat like isipin? and also this doesn’t seem necessary i think

[outer needle]

honestly the only reason i made it was to express the language i think in

[glad dune]

what is thinking

[outer needle]

been asking myself this since i was born

[neon finch]

**si **- Derived from hindi "Cheez", meaning thing. semantic space is any substance, material, or chemical. Not ijo, ijo is objects specifically if you're using si. "si jaki" could mean goop or something, "ijo jaki" is just a gross object.

[manic basalt]

why would you want to use this over ijo + ko/telo/smth

i feel ijo is purposely too broad, anywhere you want to specify more you use a different head

[outer needle]

fr tho the thinking that refers to non opinion and non feeling thinking

mainly just thoughts

[glad dune]

toki insa

[outer needle]

how did i never think to use that

[glad dune]

it’s not taught all too much methinks

[stuck spear]

sometimes i like to use pilin for thoughts

[manic basalt]

i personally like "mi la" (specially in opinions

[neon finch]

In a situation where you're say... pointing at a slime covered bottle. Sure, bottle might be "poki telo" but it could just as easily be "ijo telo", so it could be hard to differentiate between either the slime or the bottle.

[manic basalt]

if you're pointing at a slime covered bottle you could just say nasa and be understood

[glad dune]

the differiantiation is called not using ijo

[stuck spear]

i point at a slime covered bottle
"poki jaki"
this is because the poki is dirty (it has slime on it)

[neon finch]

IDK, I prolly did something wrong

[manic basalt]

yea or you could even use a sentence like "jaki li lon poki"

[neon finch]

Maybe the semantic space is entirely covered

[glad dune]

also slime is very ko

[manic basalt]

true

[glad dune]

telo is more so for liquids

ko is for your goops, slimes, powders, semi-solids, etc.

if you wanted to say “ijo ko” then first, why? and second, just don’t use it

[primal raptor]

People crave for two types of nimisin: life and isipin

[glad dune]

they’ve never thought deeply about what thinking is

quite ironic

[rancid kite]

imisin li nisipin

[hollow drift]

Breaking News! Vegetarians all over the world are protesting against what they perceive as carnivorous trends in the Toki Pona community. "It's specifically the word 'omekapo' that encourages people to eat animals", said jan Siwa, the leader of the protest movement.

As an alternative, jan Siwa proposes a new word (nimisin): ome🌱po. "It stands for 'o moku e kasi pona' and can be used as an ethical alternative to ome🐟po", he explains.

When asked whether there would be any confusion with existing words, jan Siwa is confident. "The only problem", he says, "is with Sea Cucumber (kala kasi). These are fish that look like plants. Fortunately, they are rarely eaten."

Have a lot of fun, and ome🌱po 😂

[severe sun]

nobody knows how to pronounce the 🌱

[slender sage]

go feed a good fish

[rancid kite]

ome ( 𝐜𝐨𝐬 𝑦 ) po

[rustic junco]

once you get to the 🌱 bit you shove a plant in the listeners face

in linguistics terms this is a faciobotanical click

[rough mantle]

As a click you have to trap and then release air between the plant and their face

[rancid kite]

me when i trap and then release air between a plant and someone's face:

[rustic junco]

it functions just as a faciomanual click does

[severe sun]

faciobotanical click

what if you want to pronounce it while being alone

do you click on your own face

[rough mantle]

You’re talking to yourself la you are the listener

[rustic junco]

lon

[severe sun]

what if you’re recording something

do you click on the microphone

[stuck spear]

yeah

[severe sun]

what if you’re talking to ghosts

[rustic junco]

u may swing the plant in every direction or 🌱 yourself

[stuck spear]

kasi the ghost, duh

[rustic junco]

true actually

[severe sun]

it goes straight through it

[stuck spear]

skill issue on your part tbh

personally, i can kasi ghosts

[outer needle]

kill the plant and hit the ghost with the ghost plant

[severe sun]

then your hands go straigh through the plants ghost

[stuck spear]

you know the solution

[severe sun]

[stuck spear]

either bring the ghosts back to life
or join them

[hollow drift]

I reckon the plant will be dead anyway, if it is going to get eaten. ;-)
Anyway, you can avoid most of these problems if you pronounce the 🌱 like the "ka" in omekapo...

[severe sun]

pona! a! wawa!

[slender sage]

plants can live a long time after harvesting

[cursive sedge]

really good

[gusty hazel]

toki Pona is literally PIE

insane regular grammar

three sounds everyone argues about

banger vocabulary

it's thesame all the way down

[split saddle]

now what if i am the plant? 🤔 (mi kasi Majeli)

[wet lintel]

👩‍❤️‍💋‍👩

[severe sun]

la sina kasi e kasi

[split saddle]

😭

[outer needle]

jump at them

[rustic junco]

you have the highest authority to freely attach yourself or a fellow kasi to the listeners face

if you yourself are the listener then you are entitled to complementary self-love

[split saddle]

HAHAHA

fantastic

[amber yarrow]

Þere's no way þere's þis many good nimisin

[slender sage]

maybe three

[split saddle]

not at all no

most here are not good

[amber yarrow]

It's badnimisin but you can star

[split saddle]

i feel like if someone had an actually good nimisin they thought people would use then they wouldn’t put it here

they’d do like something detailed in #pana or maybe just talk to a few people first to see what people think of the idea or smth

[stuck spear]

if i had a good nimisin I'd put it in #1181641057985908797 anyway

[glad dune]

I have only three good nimi sin to my name: kepa, sunta, and kewe

sunta/kewe la sina ken kama sona e ona lon [[User:CosmicPython/Colorblindness]]

[urban schooner]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/User:CosmicPython%2FColorblindness

[glad dune]

kepa la sina ken kama sona e ona lon ni:

.post kepa

[round linden]

kepa

…is a post-ku nimi sin coined by puwa Kolisin in February 2024.

It is a content word that pertains to patterns, orders, sequences, series, rhythms, arrangements, organization, and decluttering. It semantically shares a lot in common with kulupu and nasin, and can be considered an antonym of sorts to jaki. You should not use it as a calque for the English concepts of “normal”, “average”, or “standard”. Its etymology is a priori i.e. it does not come from a pre-existing word. It is unrelated to the nemune word.

Some examples of usage with potential translations include:
kepa palisa ni la o pana e wile tawa ona “Select a row/column.”
tenpo pini la mi kama jo e kepa kasi suwi a “Earlier today, I got a cute bouquet!”
linja nanpa wan li kepa la linja nanpa tu li ni lili “The first line is orderly; the second one less so.”
tomo sona ni la jan kepa li jan pona “At this school, the custodians are good people.”

sitelen pona glyph: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316066233755631616/1214688532346576967/nimisinmi.png

#7f1384 kepa

[stuck spear]

color words are always good nimisin because fuck jelo

[glad dune]

nfnsjjcj

[primal raptor]

I never settled for glyph designs for the colorblindness nimisin but I should. Like who is going to Stop me the Nimisin police

Get your sensitive ass back to pu

[stuck spear]

<p><musi>id rather use my poto kimi masen bad-nimisins than jelo</musi></p>

[glad dune]

o pana e sitelen sina uwu

[primal raptor]

mi pali e ona la mi ni :3

[lilac shuttle]

I gotchu B)

Yes it has to use the colors

[stuck spear]

ni li nimi seme

[lilac shuttle]

^

oops thought I replied

[stuck spear]

but what's the nimi!!!!

[glad dune]

cbnsjjcnc

[fleet sapphire]

sewina - practice, build

[untold bridge]

honestly pona works in most situations for this

alasa pona / kama pona could work too

[glad dune]

kama pona yeah

[zealous knot]

nita - (any insult)
RUS гнида

[kindred pollen]

toki ike

[split saddle]

seme la ni li nimisin pona
ni li toki pi “good nimisin”

nimi ni li wile ala

[amber yarrow]

jopenalo - fucked in þe mouþ (not oral sex, a swear word/phrase)

Oops I þought þis was badnimisin (þere is no difference in þe quality)

[rustic junco]

this might be good guys

[wet lintel]

im always saying this

[unkempt frost]

i love oral sex
oh wait

[amber yarrow]

ngzrheme

[maiden glen]

sejonwentuntematomijelemije
look at this message (I'm putting it here because it's a good nimisin) #1181641057985908797 message

[waxen mountain]

⏰ It's time to destroy more pu words again!!!
kan - to sense
kute kan kalama
lukin kan suno/kan kule
we also get
taste - kan moku
smell - kan kon
touch - kan luka/kan sijelo
this one is not that obvious but I thought of it anyway
intuition - kan pilin

[split saddle]

i saw a nasin once where “oko” meant “sensory organ” so you could use that as something similar

“mi oko e ni” “i sense this”

oko lukin - eye/look
oko kute - ear/here
etc.

[grave anchor]

Why do I love this so much

[sacred basin]

alasa mi pi nimi sitelen

[stuck spear]

bottom-to-top writing-direction e

[neon finch]

sa- English "style". Measurement, observation... It's main use isn't counting and stuff, though. "sa lete" is "cold-measurement", so temperature measurement. (PROLLY NOT THAT GOOD, CAN ANYONE HELP ME IMPROVE THIS)

[sacred basin]

lon, mi la mi ante ala e ni tan nimi kon en nimi telo li jo e ijo ike sama

[untold bridge]

kan
with, among, in the company of
multiple possibilities: Finnish kanssa 'with', Esperanto kun 'with', Latin cum 'with'
jan Sonja, 2001

[sacred basin]

||funny word||

[sacred basin]

sa sewi = ||meter||
sa pi wawa linluwi = ||ampère||
sa lete/seli = ||celsius||
sa suli en lili ||kilogramme||
ni li lon?

ken la sa Meto, sa Anpele, sa Sesiju, sa Kilokama

[wispy vortex]

pilin is already to sense

pilin moku, pilin kon, pilin luka/sijelo

mi pilin e sina kepeken lukin - i experience you with my eyes

[neon finch]

lon!

eg: "mi sa e lete kepeken sa Sesiju"||- I check temperature in celsius.||

[calm falcon]

asawi - randomness, randomly, disorganized

[neon finch]

I'm gonna take the 3 most recent nimisin and combine them

[calm falcon]

oh no

[neon finch]

like see how they work together

not create an amalgam wor

[calm falcon]

oh thank god

[neon finch]

this is gud nimisin

I can't do all of them in one go??

How do I take randomness, sensing, and measurement, and use them all in one sentence??

[calm falcon]

sa pi asawi kan - precision

[neon finch]

Nice

Imagine trying to write a paragraph in toki pona but you have to use every good nimisin

By that I mean hold a community poll, people vote for which nimisin are nice, and you have to use every single one considred nice

[rough mantle]

kijetesantakalu li tonsi

[glad dune]

the best nimi sin is the one that doesn’t exist

[calm falcon]

-
<-

[glad dune]

but generally tonsi and kijetesantakalu have high regards

[neon finch]

ye

[calm falcon]

the 「kijetesantakalu tonsi li lanpan e soko」 of nimisin

[neon finch]

imma try with ALL the nimi ku suli

kijetesantakalu tonsi majuna monsuta li kokosila li lanpan e soko la..

kijetesantakalu jasima li epiku li ku li misikeke e jan mute

I missed some but

This makes no sense

I tried to give it some meaning

but I failed miserably

[rough mantle]

When the scary, old, nonbinary raccoon breaks toki pona taso rules and takes a mushroom, the reflective raccoon is awesome and interacts with the Toki Pona Dictionary and gives many people medicine

[neon finch]

Ye

[calm falcon]

nnn. mi o alasa ni.

[neon finch]

Basically the scary old NB racoon does kokosilaing and steals mushrooms, so their opposite is amazing, uses the toki pona dictionary, and medicates people

[calm falcon]

kijetesantakalu tonsi epiku li oko li lanpan monsuta e soko leko li kipisi li misikeke e ona li kokosila meso kin e namako ona.

[wet lintel]

kokosilang sounds like a filipino dish

[sacred basin]

"mi tu li jo e moku lon tomo pi poki moku seme?"
"nnn mi sa… ala"
"sina pona"

ni li nimi pona taso ken la sina ken toki e ni kepeken nimi "nasin"

anu lukin

[neon finch]

lon.

mi wile pona e nimi ni.

[kindred pollen]

mute can be used for measurement

[sacred basin]

ito/itu - nimi pi sama kon "… ni: [ijo]" ||works as a sentence divider such as la and pi||

toki kepeken nimi ni:

mi weka e sina tan itu sina li jan ike ||I broke up with you because you're a bad person||

o sona itu sina pana mani tawa mi la linluwi sina li weka ||know that if you don't pay us, we'll cut your Wi-Fi||

[untold bridge]

interesting

[sacred basin]

tan toki Pilipino en toki Intonesija -> ito en itu, ona li jo e kon sama nimi "ni"

[glad dune]

this just seems like a clause embedder

you might as well say like “mi weka e sina tan ki sina li jan ike”

[untold bridge]

except that you can't use ki for that in normal nasin ki

[glad dune]

let’s ask somebody about how ki works

hey nobody do you think this is kosher

[untold bridge]

i've known ki users

[glad dune]

I like how this is past tense

currently know? nah, but I’ve known them

[primal raptor]

Good thing I am nobody

[slender sage]

keep in contact with? god no

[glad dune]

me fr

speaking of how silly ki is, I’ve toyed with using ja as a terminator alongside how it’s used for lo

[untold bridge]

the one i remember is kulupu Pankaja

[stuck spear]

Odysseus

[untold bridge]

they left our last mutual server because a moderator's status was pro-palestine

and they could not stand the thought of a one-state solution

anyway i think they stopped using ki before they left

[primal raptor]

oh mny god }

[glad dune]

I think an example sentence I cooked up was “soweli ki pakala mute ja moku e kiwen ja li moku e lipu suli lo kepeken wawa ja kiwen uta ona”

≈ the dog that epically failed to eat a rock is now eating a big piece of paper by really using its teeth

[primal raptor]

me

[glad dune]

que horrible

[untold bridge]

yea

[sacred basin]

mi sona ala e ijo ni

[glad dune]

toki pona does not embed clauses inside other clauses

so you wouldn’t have “the bird that i love just ate my pepper”

you would have like “mi olin e waso la ona li moku e kasi mi” or “waso ni li moku e kasi mi: mi olin e ona” or “waso pi olin mi li moku e kasi mi”

although “that I love” isn’t a good example of a relative clause since you can easily melt it into a noun phrase

[stuck spear]

the loved bird

[primal raptor]

that fucking bird that i love

[sacred basin]

taso ni li ni ala

mi sona ala

taso kulupu toki sina pi pana sona e ijo ni la mi pilin e ni: itu ni li ni ala

[calm falcon]

yea i was just about to say that

[amber yarrow]

Tbh on should have gone here

[dapper pawn]

on?

[wet lintel]

onoka e sike mi

[carmine kernel]

** **
** **
** **
** **
** **
** **
** **
** **

** **

ni li kijetesantakalu pi nimi sin
sina pana e nimi sin pi mute ike la ona li kama li lanpan e soko sina

[severe sun]

tomo ni li nimisin ike ala la o yutu

[carmine kernel]

a a

ni li soweli pi nimi sin
ona li suwi li wile lon poka kijetesantakalu

[molten silo]

the soweli is SO welly.

it's like a well

[waxen mountain]

ni li ala pi nimi sin

.

[untold bridge]

a a

[untold bridge]

ala pi nimi sin

annihilation of nimi sin

@abstract brook's secret final goal

[calm falcon]

ike la, mi moku e nimi sin sina ale. an an an.

[urban vessel]

tele - plot, story, tale, novel
<- English tale and television
You can also use it as a headnouns for novels, shows, or movies
tele Patatentapisolo - "Faster than the Speed of Love" (family guy reference)
tele Pamilika - "Family Guy" (family guy reference)
tele Tajemosimuwi - "The Emoji Movie"

[slow sky]

I might use this one

[warm wasp]

toki
ni ale li toki
anu sitelen

[stuck spear]

tele nopela : drama series, telenovela

[severe sun]

where’s the nimisin symbol

[stuck spear]

i eated it

[west fulcrum]

god we need a story nimisin so bad

i like this one

[onyx torrent]

here’s one

[neon finch]

PAKALA I FORGOR WHERE WE WERE-

[warm wasp]

me, a hypocrite, saying this while using kana
•–•
I like kana more than this tho
(grrrr English nimisin...)

[calm falcon]

tu - 1.5
<- toki pona 「tuli」

sa - 2
<- toki pona 「san」

a - 1
<- toki pona 「san」

li - 1.5
<- toki pona 「tuli」

[lilac shuttle]

I think we should start using usawi more (a word for magic by ka Tumu!)

It’s the type of word I could see having 80%+ usage soon!

[slender sage]

i'm not sure that 80%+ tokiponists talk about magic enough to want a unique word for it tbh

it's one of the words i see most value in for games and such (same for leko for example)

[lilac shuttle]

We need more wizards in the toki pona community

[wispy vortex]

in su, jan Sonja opted to use wawa and wawa nasa to describe magic instead of usawi

[rough mantle]

wawa nasa describes magic very well

[unkempt frost]

from the perspective of someone who doesnt have / know magic themself, yeah

it feels less fitting when i think about like. a powerful wizard calling his powers strange

[slender sage]

probably just wawa (maybe a lil pona/ike/ whatever the magic Does as a treat)

[cursive sedge]

i am a practicing witch and i think pali is better for what i do

in general pali for the act of doing magic is good

"magic" abstractly like have you stopped to consider what that actually is

usawi is a cop out

[lilac shuttle]

But as a non-practicing non-witch, it would probably seem not at all similar to my work. The same way a computer might be magic to someone who doesn't work with them. I'd probably use wawa nasa or usawi if I saw someone do magic.

I think usawi's good for magical things that don't necessarily have powers

Like hobbits kinda suck on a power department, but i'd still call them usawi. Maybe lipu pi kule usawi would be good for fantasy books?

[cursive sedge]

but what are they actually doing?

[lilac shuttle]

No clue, I don't know anything about witchcraft

[wispy vortex]

ona li pali nasa

n

sina sona ala e ijo la lon la ijo ni li nasa tawa sina anu seme

[lilac shuttle]

I consider myself a very scientific person, so it's never interested me a whole ton

[lilac shuttle]

nasa li nimi pona tawa ona

[wispy vortex]

mi kepeken ilo. taso mi sona ala e ni: ilo li ken pali li ken nanpa li ken musi tan seme? taso ilo li nasa ala tawa mi tan ni: mi kepeken ona lon tenpo mute.

[wispy vortex]

wawa ni pi toki sina li nasa tan ni: sina lukin e wawa ni e pali ni lon tenpo lili a.

[unkempt frost]

in what way are hobbits magical??

[lilac shuttle]

They got big toes and shit

[unkempt frost]

i also have big toes

[lilac shuttle]

sina usawi ala usawi?

[unkempt frost]

thats just biology not magic

[cursive sedge]

not like in general. in a specific context, any type of magic will manifest as something. like if in english i'm using magic to bring a broom to life to sweep the floors, then mi tawa e ilo pi weka jaki kepeken ala luka. mi kepeken insa mi. mi wawa mute li ken nasin e ijo kepeken lawa taso.

(that's not an example of real witchcraft; levitation is not a real thing)

[lilac shuttle]

That's a good point. It's a lot more descriptive than using usawi as a cop out

[cursive sedge]

exactly

nimisin generally weaken the creativity one needs to speak toki pona

[lilac shuttle]

I'ma move to #toki-ale to gear slightly off topic

[waxen mountain]

ka - any lifeform

kuma - category, property, general

[frail dagger]

blatantly lanpan tan toki sike

[neon pendant]

ngl saying tuki tiki is better (endonym)

[rustic junco]

tuki tiki li wuwojiti a

[unkempt frost]

toki Tukisiki

[severe sun]

toki sike

[neon pendant]

ma Sawusi li wuwojiti kin a

jan Sonja li wile ala pana e lon pi toki wile ni: ona li lon ala lon

[rustic junco]

n

la mi sona ala

tila uli la tila tuki li a a a

[frail dagger]

tuki tiki li pula tu a

[rustic junco]

pula

[severe sun]

tuki tiki i tilu pula

[slender sage]

in what ways are hobbits magical
they got big toes and shit

this is so funny to me

[wispy vortex]

toki Siki

[rancid kite]

toe·ki

[waxen mountain]

toe key

[onyx torrent]

türkiye

[molten silo]

turki döna

[urban vessel]

though grease

[maiden glen]

ijl use it but wouldn't movie titles be translated instead of tokiponized

[rough mantle]

Both can be done

[maiden glen]

wait what

[lucid aspen]

made this one a while ago so i guess i'll post it here ^•^

jupi - celebrate, celebration, victory, yippee (exclamation) <- Spanish "yupi"

also partially coined because there isn't a common toki pona word that starts with the syllable "ju" and i don't like any of the sandbox ones that do lol

(sitelen pona la ni li wawa with emmiters, the result of power or strength)

also obligatory soweli jupi mention

[split saddle]

this has already been done with jipi/jepi i think

[lucid aspen]

oh wait has it

[slender sage]

sipije li toki e jupi

[mental phoenix]

yea i did that on bad nimisin (jupi) (sorry for ping)

[split saddle]

i like pings don’t worry about it

[mental phoenix]

oh

ok

[split saddle]

i was gonna mention my ok to ping role but then i realised how many other roles i have lmao

it’s a bit hard to find

[mental phoenix]

oh i tried to find it betfore i replied but i couldnt

[split saddle]

@mental phoenix

[mental phoenix]

a

[waxen mountain]

kilo - 1000
so you don't have to say ale ale ale ale ale ale ale ale ale ale

[stuck spear]

mu

[split wolf]

how do i say 10000

[wispy vortex]

wan ale ale with nnp

or ale ale ale ale … ale

[split wolf]

i was gonna ask what infinity would be as a joke but i feel like ale would be sort of good

[lucid aspen]

i mean ale does mean all

[wispy vortex]

you can also talk about infinity by saying something doesn't end

i've used that to talk about infinite ordinals in toki pona before

[molten silo]

nanpa pi pini ala

[split saddle]

oh would this not just be “ale ale”?

[frail dagger]

in nnp ale ale = 200

wan ale ale = 10000

[split saddle]

oh right i see

[stuck spear]

milija - 10000 < ancient greek μυριάς, "10000" (see "myriad")

[calm falcon]

milija - 1000000000
<- english "milliard"

[rancid kite]

2⁴ × 5⁴ and 2⁹ × 5⁹ are strange numbers for TP to have words for

I mean, two whole words for 2² × 5² was weird enough, but i assume that was just a fairly large number that you can tack mute onto to get the number of nimi pu and is otherwise arbitrary

but here?

why're we so insistent on skipping anything with a factor of 3? why give the first and third primes so much preferential treatment over the second?

feels like pretty arbitrary choices of numbers compared to, say, 720720 (2⁴ × 3² × 5 × 7 × 11 × 13), now that's a number that a lot divides into

[stuck spear]

wan - one
< English one

[rough mantle]

Maybe also like "unite" or "fuse"

[stuck spear]

sure why not

[untold bridge]

wait tumu made usawi? whoaa

[unkempt frost]

kinpaki - hedgehog
from Afrikaans krimpvarkie

i made this one in kama sona earlier

[wispy vortex]

canadian bills happen to have those numbers

5 20 and 100

[native root]

"kama wan?"

[onyx torrent]

or just wan

[chrome gulch]

fyi i did not make it because i wanted to have a word for magic

i wanted to try to make a new word, cause i didn't know people did that already

so i wanted some meaning that wasn't quite expressed by the other words and then i wanted that meaning to be (or seem) broad so i added a bunch of side meanings as bells and whistles

this was 2019

which was the first few months i was in this server

i'd been into toki pona since 2018 but did not really use it at all to communicate with other people

hence the relative ignorance

[untold bridge]

i see

[chrome gulch]

i don't like my usawi. maybe other people's usawi is better

unrelated i notice "wawa nasa" appearing very often in su. su is interesting for magic because it comes up a lot and it shows up in more or less the same words as far i've read

as a modifier wawa seems to suffice, eg "meli wawa" referring to witches

[slender sage]

will she kill me with magical powers or bonecrushing muscles, only one way to find out

[lucid aspen]

kinpaki Saniku

[native root]

okay so...

what about a word for "thank you"

i mean, if toki pona is pure with meaning

and you want to give someone a big thanks

truthfully and no paying

that can't be said with "pona o tawa sina"

its bigger than "pona"

epiku but respectfully

epiku + pona right?

heres my take on a good nimisin

[untold bridge]

noooooo

[native root]

what

[round linden]

How to say "thank you" in toki pona?

As with everything in toki pona, there's no one set way to say things, and these phrases won't always mean "thank you", but some common ones are:

• sina pona - literally "you are good"
• pona tawa sina - "goodness to you"

And a common expansion in keeping with toki pona philosophy is explain why you're thankful:

• sina pona tan pana sona - you are good because of giving knowledge

Play with it and find your own way!

#ce1b0c thankyou

[native root]

why?

ah okay :(

mi palaka :(

[untold bridge]

wait that's not the note i was lookin gfor

[native root]

ah okay

salaman - A thank's so large that it can't be defined.

like when you try to study hard for a really important test, and your parents are there to help you?
and you get a high score? thats a salaman

big bad come and big good come :3

idk

[wispy vortex]

toki pona is about breaking down your ideas

there is no "thanks so large it can't be defined"

[native root]

yeah

im sorry :(

[round linden]

How to express thanks in toki pona?

toki pona doesn't have a short or direct word for "thanks", for two reasons

• toki pona is "polite by default"
• it also tries to avoid "phatic" phrases that are automatic and not very meaningful

So there's two main ways to express thanks; short phrases, or a longer explanation.

Common short phrases are: pona; sina pona; pona tawa sina.
Those each mean: good, you are good, goodness to you
(more or less)

Another way, which is often better, is to express what you're thankful for;
If someone is teaching, for example, you can express that:
sina pona tan pana sona
you are good because giving knowledge

Or if someone gave a present, you might say:
sina pana e ijo pona la, sina pona
you gave a good thing, so, you are good

But as with many things in toki pona, there's many ways to express yourself.
Experiment! o pona

#cd008d thanks

[wispy vortex]

you just defined it in that sentence

[native root]

ill deleat it :(

[untold bridge]

that's it!

[native root]

im sorry :(

[untold bridge]

you don't have to delete it

[native root]

ah okay

big sorry :(

[untold bridge]

i'm just explaining why to me it's not a good word

[native root]

ah okay

[untold bridge]

nooo don't feel sorry

i can't even count how many times i've seen people try to create phatic phrases for toki pona

most natural languages have them

[wispy vortex]

learning about thanking and not having phatic phrases is a really important step in learning toki pona :3

[native root]

im trying to restrain myself to say sorry

im sorry :(

thanks for telling me :3

but mostley im sorry :(

thanks :3

im really sorry

please forgive me :(

[molten silo]

its nothing to worry about

[native root]

thanks :3

i have a very big problem with problems

[unkempt frost]

sorry is also a phatic expression

saying it more often doesnt do anything

[native root]

okay

[native root]

i always say sorry tbh

should I stop saying sorry?

[severe sun]

yes

[native root]

are you sure?

(not related to tkpn)

[unkempt frost]

yeah

[native root]

why?

[unkempt frost]

it really just doesnt mean anything and saying it especially repeatedly only makes you feel worse

[native root]

okay :|

[frail dagger]

this feels like a veiled apology

remember, no one here will dislike you

hate you

anything

for honest mistakes

[native root]

ah okay

[unkempt frost]

yes we like you :3

[native root]

but for me, "sorry" has a meaning

[frail dagger]

the meaning is?

[native root]

"I tried my best, but I failed. Please forgive me :("

[native root]

thanks :3

[native root]

correct :3

[unkempt frost]

aw but you didnt fail!

[native root]

thanks :3

[unkempt frost]

and theres nothing to be forgiven

you didnt hurt anyone or anything

[frail dagger]

yeah, making mistakes is not equal to failing

[native root]

oh right, yeah...

thanks :3

[unkempt frost]

you had a reasonable idea for a word, and then someone explained to you why a word like that wouldnt be great for this language
theres nothing "failing" in there

just a learning moment :3

[native root]

i know :3
thanks :3

[frail dagger]

make sure to disasociate making a mistake or misunderstanding from failing, because making a mistake the first time is actually succeeding to make you learn something

i did this trivia thing once, and my team almost one, if not for one thing:

i spelt diarrhoea as diarrhea

[native root]

oh right,
everything makes sense now

[frail dagger]

but because of my mistake, i never misspell it today

[native root]

ah nice :3

so what's a faliure?

[frail dagger]

an example of a failure is when, after a mistake, you still make the same error because you didn't learn from it

[unkempt frost]

thats not even a misspelling lol thats a valid accepted alternate spelling

[frail dagger]

the british spelling was asked for

[unkempt frost]

did you know that before answering?

[frail dagger]

yes

[unkempt frost]

ah fair enough

[native root]

lol

[frail dagger]

the entire quiz was for british spellings of the words presented

[native root]

wait what?

[frail dagger]

i didn't think there was a difference for diarrh(o)ea

[native root]

i thought it was "diarreah"

[unkempt frost]

makes sense
good spelling

[frail dagger]

it's diarrhea in the US mainly, and diarrhoea in the UK mainly

[native root]

lol :3

[frail dagger]

both are weird anyway because there is no /h/

[unkempt frost]

tijaweja

[frail dagger]

the wuwojiti is real

tajawija

[unkempt frost]

the h is there because ancient greek actually differentiated breathy r and non-breathy r and this word had a breathy r

[frail dagger]

ah, from rho

makes sense

[unkempt frost]

indeed

and the o is there because it was originally -οια which was then latinized as oea

greek-sourced oe is also often written as œ which i find rather pleasant

but æ, œ, and e in latin and greek loans all kinda merged into /iː/ in english, so now its common to drop the a/o part and only keep the e

[frail dagger]

like in oesophagus and oestrogen

[unkempt frost]

indeed

the endings of "diarrhoea" and "paranoia" are actually the same thing in greek, but they look different in english because one went through latin and the other is a direct greek loan

and thats also why theyre pronounced differently in english, with paranoia preserving the oi sound

wiktionary does list paranoea and paranœa as obsolete and rare spellings for the word

[stuck spear]

διάρροια

[frail dagger]

the modern greek tendency to make any diphtong with ι in it into an /i/

i was just thinking, "there should be some term for this. i-cization? iota-cisation?" and then i was like "wait that's already the word"

[stuck spear]

iotacism

also called itacism (from η, since that's one of the victims)

[frail dagger]

the victims 😂

ι has been sneaking around, assimilating any vowel it can get its hands on

[unkempt frost]

διάῤῥοια

[frail dagger]

one day, ι will be the only vowel left in every language in the world

/j

[stuck spear]

an easier way to remember is that
latin loves to rh greek rhos, but rhrh looks jaki so rrh

[unkempt frost]

yes

дїа́р҆р҅ꙕа

we should write greek like this

[frail dagger]

why is it rh in the first place? why not r?

[unkempt frost]

because word-initial rho be like that in ancient greek

but theres also other rho thats not breathy, like in the other example word paranoia

[frail dagger]

yeah but it's an allophone 😭
roman scribes making english harder as always

/musi

clearly the scribes knew that one day their work would be used in spelling bees and made sure to make their transcriptions incompatible with english

[stuck spear]

i know greek, not latin

[frail dagger]

why did you learn greek?

[stuck spear]

because my stupid school forces everyone to learn greek (kindergarten all the way to 12th grade, not just greek language, but math classes in greek too), so glad to finally be outta there

[unkempt frost]

where is this

[frail dagger]

ah i see

[unkempt frost]

i want a school where they teach me modern greek

[severe sun]

go to akesi Kilo’s location

[unkempt frost]

thats why im asking where it is

[severe sun]

doxful

[stuck spear]

don't recommend

it's not worth doing greek trigonometry and greek set theory for

συνεφαπτομένη still haunts me,,,

[severe sun]

greek trygenomotery be like “σινουσ”

[stuck spear]

sine is fucking ημίτονο

[unkempt frost]

i want to tho

[severe sun]

akesi o what’s the difference between η and ι

and ί

[stuck spear]

both are [i] but η gets latinized as e

ί is still [i], just... stressed

[unkempt frost]

theyre different letters

[frail dagger]

used to be different in ancient greek

[unkempt frost]

thats the difference

[stuck spear]

η is also the feminine nominative singular definite article

[frail dagger]

and ι is not

[stuck spear]

ή (note the "tonos" (accent mark)) is or

#1181641057985908797 message
η; bad nimisin reference? owitowiwitatusitutontontontonsintotusita??????

[wispy vortex]

its so fun to say

[native root]

true

[frail dagger]

#1181641057985908797 message i love how after saying it like a rapper you proceed to say the rest of the sentence soooo slooowly

[amber yarrow]

osa replaces kijetesantakalu in May and August in honor of Rosa and her legacy

[frail dagger]

we have seli, therefore lete, suli, therefore lili. but we have mute and what?

therefore, i propose:

tota
few, not many, a little bit
from gujarati થોડાક (thōḍāk)

[slender sage]

mi la lili kin

people say aaa people don't use lili for few and i DO !

[frail dagger]

hmm could be tola depending one how you want to do /ɖ/

[wispy vortex]

mi sama

although i will often say pi mute lili as well

[urban vessel]

Travelroom - transportation device
<- toki pona "tomo tawa" (calque)

[wispy vortex]

tomo tawa isnt a calque it’s a lexicalization

you could make a super terrible calque out of “automobile” by saying “tawa sipi” though

[frail dagger]

i think they're saying that "travelroom" is a calque

[wispy vortex]

ohhhh

this makes more sense

[fleet sapphire]

we have a a a but what about o o o

[gusty hazel]

o o o

[native root]

meli kalisamasu

anu

meli Kalisamasu

[rancid kite]

tiny "o o o"

[rancid kite]

Now what would that combo glyph even mean? "Car"?

[rancid kite]

anu ｓｅｍｅseme

[native root]

hey yall

what if there was another ni

[unkempt frost]

nu

[native root]

ni but more farther

[frail dagger]

how about ni but more closer

[native root]

poki?

[frail dagger]

you are inventing this-that distinction basically

[native root]

yes

[frail dagger]

poka*, poki is box

[unkempt frost]

but wht

why

[native root]

a mi pakala

[unkempt frost]

why make distinction

[native root]

maybe there is something farther than the spoken

like a lion running to them

the more thar I think about it

its a bad ninimsib

[slender sage]

ni na nu no nu, it's like functions you can refer to five things distinctly
unlike just ni where you can refer to infinite things
/musi

[untold bridge]

you ever heard of kisiwi?

[untold bridge]

hey wait this is lojban's system /gen

[untold bridge]

[[kisiwi]]

[urban schooner]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/kisiwi

[native root]

NAH

whats that?

[untold bridge]

look up

[rustic junco]

okay im looking up rn what now

[onyx torrent]

look at the nice clouds

that one looks like a kiwi (the bird)

[untold bridge]

up in chat

look at kisiwi

[rustic junco]

but then id have to look down again ☹️

/musi

[rustic junco]

im in a building all i see is the ceiling

[untold bridge]

up in chat is still up, on my computer

just not all the way up

[rustic junco]

sona a
mi musi taso

[untold bridge]

pona

[wispy vortex]

i thought there were only 3 demonstratives

or is this abt something else

[untold bridge]

idk

i know there are five versions of the third person singular pronoun

no. more apparently

ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u
fo'a fo'e fo'i fo'o fo'u
da de di

[gusty hazel]

in bleep you can name infinite things with ni

there are brackets and numbers or something

[pearl laurel]

#1252585740433621022 message

kiwentesantakalu https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1252585740433621022/1253698480547958815/71c-ihY1EHL.png?ex=6697c2b2&is=66967132&hm=d919fbef9b34cafe23adfb28949476e10c3c691b082ee56a1aaf820fff951585&

[sly wadi]

wawa mute

[sand hamlet]

luwa
right (meaning the direction)
from French droit meaning right

sinise
left (meaning the direction)
from Latin sinister meaning left

[sly wadi]

soto + teje moment

jan Jakason ↩️

[Reply to:](#1187029495203504168 message) sinise
left (meaning the direction)
from Latin sinister meaning…

[sand hamlet]

seme?

[rough mantle]

Those words, meaning left and right, were coined at some point in the past and are in ilo Linku’s sandbox

[dapper pawn]

which ones are which

soto is left and teje is right right

[rough mantle]

Sounds right

[weak citrus]

soto

usage

obscure (ku lili)

definition

left, left side, port side

see also

poka, teje

⚠️ This word is obscure. Most speakers don't use or understand this word.

[rough mantle]

Yup

[sand hamlet]

ohh sorry I couldn't find them on the sandbox. I must've done something wrong.

[sly wadi]

they're not in the sandbox, they're in the main dictionary!

jan Jakason ↩️

[Reply to:](#1187029495203504168 message) ohh sorry I couldn't find them on the sandbox. I must've done something wrong.

8% usage on soto, and 9 on teje

[sand hamlet]

then that's why! I only checked the sandbox 😅. Thanks!

[rough mantle]

a

[sacred basin]

i dont þink using sinister for left would be accepted by þe community for some reasons

[unkempt frost]

why

its a good word

the reason i dont accept it is that not having words for left and right is fun

[slender sage]

i presume it's related to the demonisation of lefthandedness?

[unkempt frost]

it is, but like, tangentially

[cyan urchin]

the meaning "left" for sinister came before the modern meaning. there are still a few romance languages where their form of the word just means "left" and nothing else. this is like complaining that the italian word ritardando is bad because its a cognate with the english r-slur. and thats not even a good comparison because sinister isn't even close to vulgar in modern english, and is rarely even applied to people in modern writing.

[sacred basin]

im not complaining about þe modern word being like þis, I'm complaining from picking up þis one when you could choose anoþer þat fits more þe "unbiased þinking always" þing of tp

[cyan urchin]

who says that the tp word has to have the same meaning as its source word? i dont understand this argument.

[sacred basin]

þen þere's no problem

[cyan urchin]

ok

[native root]

hey yall i have a question

would it be better to add "crispy" as a nimisin

or tastes

[severe sun]

sina moku e ijo ni la ona li mu

[rough mantle]

moku ni li kiwen pi pona uta

[native root]

Ah okay thanks

[waxen mountain]

what about a word for touch? we have poka for near but that's not necessarily touching

[wispy vortex]

pilin and luka can work in different situations

also wan

[waxen mountain]

But what about inanimate objects touching

[native root]

ijo ni li lon poka ijo ante ni

poka li lili lili

[waxen mountain]

This thing is near this other thing

The nearness is a little small

-> they are not that close

[limber obsidian]

My idea:
"pi" defaults to regroup like this: 1 pi (2 pi (3 pi (4)))
nimisin "enpi": closes all "brackets": 1 pi (2 pi (3)) enpi (4 pi (5))

[native root]

a, sorry :(

[pearl laurel]

olimoli: “Holy moly!”

[rancid kite]

https://tenor.com/view/holy-moly-gif-2379897567703251318

[pearl laurel]

olimoli a 😳

[severe sun]

o li moli 😔

ike la ona li moli

[limber obsidian]

Like if anyone will review my idea or something

[waxen mountain]

How come the last pi only groups one item

Here's my idea, inspired by prefix/postfix notation in cs:
pi groups the next two items by default
For example...
a pi (b c)
a pi (b pi (c d))
a pi (pi (b c) d)
a pi (b c) pi (d e)
However, it might be annoying to write a pi (pi (b c) d) when you want to group b, c, and d, so additional rule:
Put groups with more words after groups with less words. If the more words group is before, parse the groups as a single larger group.
For example, to say a b (c d) you would say
a b pi (c d)
not
a pi (c d) b
because the latter has the larger group before the smaller group. This would be parsed as...
a pi (c d) b
a (c d) b
merge the groups since wrong order
a (c d b)

Now you can write a pi b c d and it will mean a pi (b c d)

[rough mantle]

If I’m interpreting this correctly this is largely how pi is used already!

Everything following the word after pi modifies that word

[waxen mountain]

But now, it is systamized so double pi has a definite meaning!

You can even have triple pi or any number of pi and it will still only have one meaning

[rough mantle]

a sona

[waxen mountain]

Also I should say that you merge from left to right

Otherwise there might be a bit ambiguity if you used so many pis that you had three distinct groups in decreasing size order

But literally who would do that

[pearl laurel]

Oh you’ve met my friend Literally Who

[waxen mountain]

Also, this system doesn't just systemize multiple pi, you could do that by saying each pi begins it's own group and doesn't interfere with other pis or something. The main point of this system is that now, you can express any combination of brackets with just pi, no need to begin a new sentence or anything like that.

[wispy vortex]

mi wile ala awen e sona suli a ni lon lawa mi lon toki

[pearl laurel]

sina wile toki e mute ni pi sona toki lon insa lawa sina la o kepeken toki Lojban 🤭

nimi ‹pi› li mute ni lon toki la mi ken ala sona pona e toki ni lon tenpo

[dapper pawn]

sewi moli

moli sewi

[onyx torrent]

lupa-y soweli-y

[woven canopy]

ka (inverts meaning of prev. word)
notable interactions
pi ka = ends pi clause
tenpo ka = ma
weka ka e = kama e
lupa ka = nena
awen ka = pini (not open ka!)

and the normal ones like
sewi ka = anpa
sinpin ka = monsi
pona ka = ike
suli ka = lili
seli ka = lete
palisa ka = linja

What's the difference with ala for adjectives?

Well, you see, for example "suli ala" means "not big". "not big" isn't always "small". It is "medium or small". Like how the statement "a is not less than b" is eqivalent to "a is greater than or equal to b"

Alternatively, without the nimisin(ni li nasa mute e nasin pi toki pona!)

"suli ala" o sama "lili"
sina wile toki e ni: "ijo li ken lili li ken meso" la o kepeken "ijo li ala suli

nasin ni la "mi tawa ala" la sina pali e ijo la ijo ona li "tawa ala". (You make an effort to not move, and not moving is an action or change rather than state description)
"mi li ala tawa"(li added for disambig) la sina pali ala e "tawa". (You are not moving. Describes the state where you are not executing the action/state change "moving")

[sacred basin]

sijelo

[waxen mountain]

I had this idea too! but called it no

[cyan urchin]

oh its like the mal- affix in esperanto

ni li malpona tawa malsina

[rough mantle]

ponamal

Wait what’s malsina

[woven canopy]

mi

I think

[cyan urchin]

malgeja

[cyan urchin]

ni li lon

[rough mantle]

Malsina malestas malgeja

[woven canopy]

mi ka li pilin pona ka kama ka nimi majuna ka ni tan seme /musi

(ka doesn't need pi and so in nimi majuna ka the ka modifies the majuna only)

[cyan urchin]

wait sina is actually a word in esperanto. its the adjective form of sino which means lap (as in "sit on my lap")

so malsina would mean "pertaining to the opposite of a lap"

[rough mantle]

Oh

[frail beacon]

I tried

[cyan urchin]

moku lili

[woven canopy]

since we already have pan another can't hurt

[cyan urchin]

pan = bread (nothing else)

[sly wadi]

if you change the Malsina to Malsino, this is valid esperanto

sike Kapo li lukin li ton(Sí?) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1187029495203504168 message) Malsina malestas malgeja

[dapper pawn]

so like..

instead of the legs being together they're apart?

idk how mal-works

[cyan urchin]

it vaguely means "opposite" and is not applied to words that dont have clear opposites

which is why im applying it to a word that doesnt have a clear opposite

[dapper pawn]

malsandviĉiĝis:

[severe sun]

became not a sandwich

[warm wasp]

Great job you've invented jasima again :P

[mental phoenix]

suwi for sweets?

[native root]

hey hey, i have a question.
is there a word for reminising something?

[rough mantle]

sona mi la ala

[native root]

mi olin e ijo ni, taso ijo ni li lon ala...
a... mi olin e ijo ni...

but thats a sentence lol

[rough mantle]

mi kama insa e ijo weka pi tenpo pini

[weak citrus]

olin

usage

core (pu)

definition

to have a strong emotional bond with, e.g. affection, appreciation, compassion, respect; platonic, romantic, or familial relationships

etymology

Serbo-Croatian: волим (volim); I love

ku data

loving: 100%, love: 96%, romance: 69%, romantic: 60%, compassion: 50%, attraction: 40%, intimate: 33%, passion: 29%, beloved: 27%, loyalty: 23%, faithful: 20%, loyal: 20%, dear: 17%, darling: 16%, mercy: 16%, passionate: 16%, care: 14%, appreciation: 13%, crush: 13%, respect: 13%
(source one), (source two)

commentary

In english, "love" can be used to mean "like a lot", but in toki pona, "olin" doesn't work that way. It indicates an emotional connection or bond, not preference

[native root]

ah so olin is reminising lol

mi olin e ijo pi lon ala lon tenpo ni.

[hardy cloud]

epi: seperates the object of a preposition from modifiers of the preposition

from toki pona 'e' + 'pi'

example: mi tawa mute epi ma telo(I travel to the ocean a lot)

[native root]

mute la mi tawa ma telo

hows that?

[untold bridge]

ja can do this

generally in conjunction with lo

[outer drum]

sotu - instead of, in place of
(a, ijo ni li pimeja sotu loje.)
(mi sitelen e nimi mute sotu nimi ale... taso, sina la nimi ale li pona.)
-# originally put this in the okay nimisin thread but i think its good enough to put here as its an actual proposal now

[native root]

a, ijo ni li pimeja li loje ala a!

hows that?

[outer drum]

||your way of putting the first example use is definitely good, though there's no clean way to put the second (which is why i brought this here to begin with)||

[waxen mountain]

alo - replaces ala as to not offend muslims

[native root]

mi sitelen e nimi mute e nimi ale ala. taso, sina la nimi ale li pona
||a oke||

||heres m,y best try||

[native root]

how about a name for "chaos"

thats not bad

can jaki be pona?

can ike be pona?

are all nasa ike or pona?

[wispy vortex]

nasa isn't inherently ike or pona

[native root]

ok

what about jaki?

is it some sort of ike?

[pseudo vessel]

well lipamanka's semantic space dictionary does discuss that question and apparently it's still not decided whether jaki is inherently ike or if it's a distinct quality, probably same with suwi

but nasa is definitely neutral connotation just meaning unusual, at least since the ku amendments to pu

[wispy vortex]

most of the time jaki is ike because it generally refers to unpleasant sensory things

but that doesnt necessarily mean it always is

[native root]

okay thnsk :333

[waxen mountain]

kepa ala?

[rancid kite]

nasin ala,,

nasin ala ale,,

[onyx torrent]

most nimisin about randomness could be applicable too

[hardy cloud]

nasin ala

[onyx torrent]

ouais

[waxen mountain]

no road

no way

!=

disorder

[weak citrus]

open

usage

core (pu)

definition

begin, start, open, turn on; beginning

[native root]

a

[native root]

hey guys i have an idea

what about a nimisin for full?

[weak citrus]

suli

usage

core (pu)

definition

big, heavy, large, long, tall, wide; important, relevant

jo

usage

core (pu)

definition

hold, carry, possess, contain, own

[outer drum]

some variation of "jo e ale" would work fine for that i think

[native root]

A thnks

[rancid kite]

I like to use li jo e ale ken for this

[lucid aspen]

jensu - a game-ified exclamation for when two people spontaneously translate the same random message in the same (or similar enough) way. the first person to say "jensu!" after realizing wins the game.
-> English "jinx", also an alternate tokiponization of jasima (jansu)

[blissful oracle]

jensu

[lucid aspen]

wrong

[lucid aspen]

ka - living creature, thing that lives or appears to live, able to act on its own with minimal direct outside input; living or autonomous
-> tuki tiki "ka"
(i have been asked to post this under the guise of ka gang)

[pseudo vessel]

well aaaactually it's <- not -> 🤓 ☝️

[outer drum]

oh this is interesting

i can imagine a lot of different interactions this could have with other words such as "jan", "soweli", "waso", "akesi", etc. but also with "moli"

[lucid aspen]

true..

[hardy cloud]

what about konwe

[lucid aspen]

this is konwe 2 !!! (konwe is depricated bc john conway doesn't want the game of life to be his only legacy)

[kindred pollen]

We need words start with u
So I allready suggested 'ulon' .

[native root]

ulan - to have a bad day, bad day as a noun. ALT. the smell of rain before and after the rain.

<- (fil. Ulan "rain")

[rapid vault]

ni li sama petrichor taso ona li ike

[native root]

msa

[rapid vault]

it's like the word "petrichor" but more sad

[native root]

a

nah its just

1. tenpo ike
2. petrichor

[keen kernel]

je - Variant of pi, instead of used for modifiers, its used for prepositions
eg. ni li suno je lon sewi

[lucid aspen]

close enough welcome back ki /

[keen kernel]

whats ki

[weak citrus]

ki

usage

sandbox (no book)

definition

(particle) [relative clause marker]

see also

⚠️ This proposed word is in the sandbox. It is not in use by the community.

[keen kernel]

OH

hmmm

nipi - finishes a pi phrase
for example:
ni li tomo pi telo nasa pi mije mute - this is a room of many mens drinks
ni li tomo pi telo nasa nipi pi mije mute - this is the bar of many men

[native root]

what about a "still" as in "he still eats the food"

tenpo mute la ona li moku e moku!

yeah this is a bad example

[lucid aspen]

awen

ona li awen moku e moku

[native root]

a

oke thanks meli Siliwa(so) :3

[untold bridge]

i've heard a few nimi for this before

only one i can remember is ilo [sanli]'s ke

[pseudo vessel]

in my tokiponido it's u

[untold bridge]

u is a relative clause nimisin!

it's pretty cool

[finite frigate]

me when i have to push and pop on a stack for parsing toki pona again

[waxen mountain]

How's this
suka - sour, acidic
suku - bitter, alkaline

[sly wadi]

the nimi sin aku covers both

[waxen mountain]

surprising / sour / bitter are different

[onyx torrent]

i would describe sour/bitter as surprising to the mouth

[weary blade]

Disclaimer: musi taso, I doubt pi usage will change based on anyone's deliberate design, also: long text ahead! so probably no one will read this anyway, but after I've already spent time thinking about this, it didn't take much extra effort to write this up, so *shrug*

Yesterday, I've been thinking a bit about pi and I've revewied your idea too. I like it a lot! It is compatible with the pi usage in pu (meaning that any pi-expression before means the same, or if it was ambiguous, its new meaning is one among its previous, multiple meanings) and it is easy to use. I really like the naming of enpi, because in the most common usages it could be translated to 'and of', for example 'tomo pi mama meli mi enpi mama mije mi' = house of my mother and (of) my father. However, I also have some notes:

First, your notation differs from KMnO4's notation and I think theirs is more clear. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every one of your numbers can mean a whole group of words, not merely one, and inside those groups you assume left-associativity like usual in toka pona without any pis 'tomo moku mi=((tomo moku) mi)=my dining room'. I mention this, because I think this is one reason you didn't get many responses, people who didn't think much about pi before or were reading quickly couldn't parse it. See KMnO4's question: 'How come the last pi only groups one item?', but of course it groups a whole group: 'a pi b c d' = '(a ((b c) d))', like in standard toki pona.

Second, you were not completely explicit about what will happen with multiple enpi's: what will be (1 pi (2 pi (3))) enpi (1 pi (2 pi (3))) enpi (1 pi (2 pi (3))), will it be '(A enpi A) enpi A' or 'A enpi (A enpi A)'. You said only that 'it closes all brackets', but those are the two possible options and both have open bracket on one of the enpi's. I assume you meant the first (left-associativity), because you imagined the expression without any outer brackets at all, and then, similarly to toki pona's standard left-associativity, you interpreted it that way. But do correct me if my assumption is wrong!

Third, while, as I said, your suggestion is great in practice and I will use it, it bothers me a bit that you still can't build every possible parenthesization, like (a ((a (a a)) (a (a a)))). In fact, it is easy to prove that if you can only use maximum one of two possible particles in each gap between the 'meaning' words, there is no way (even using completely different rules than yours) to build every parenthesization. This is because the number of parenthesization of n+1 factors is the nth Catalan number which is O(4^n/(n^(3/2))), there is n gap and each gap has three possibilities (no particle, pi, enpi), which is merely 3^n possible parenthesization.

So, I have an extension to your system, but first, notice what you've done in simpler terms: In regular toki pona, you have two operators.
One is the invisible operator: (tomo mi = tomo <invisible> mi), its meaning is roughly 'modified by' and its defined to be left-associative: tomo pimeja mi = ((tomo walo) mi) = my white house, and not 'my white's house'
The second is 'pi' which has the same meaning 'modified by', but its precedence is strictly lower than the invisible operator's. Unfortunately 'pi' has no standard associativity in regular toki pona, and your first change was changing this to right-associativity, very good change imo!
Secondly, you've defined a new operator: 'enpi' which has the same meaning 'modified by', but its precedence is strictly lower than both the invisible operator and 'pi' and (I assume) you intend this operator to be left-associative.
Put this way, I think it's easy to see a natural continuation: just have an infinite sequence of operators with progressively lower and lower precedence. If we take a page from KMnO4's book, we could call these:
'pi'
'pi pi' or 'enpi'
'pi pi pi'
...
with this, after we prescribe the associativities (eg, all left-associative after pi), we get a system which can create any possible way to parenthesize arbitrary factors! (One problem with this is that in speech multiple pis are confusing, because pipi is a word, so maybe some other word would be better, for example repeated po for every operator above enpi.)

@waxen mountain o, I've also looked at your suggestions, and I really like that it can build every possible parenthesization, but I have some notes for this system too:
I assume that you too assume left-associativity in your text when you write terms without parentheses, so when you write 'a b (c d)', you mean '((a b) (c d))' in accordance with standard toki pona. If you don't, do say so!

After you've applied every 'pi' and when you do the merging, do you perform it many times (as long as there are groups in the 'bad' order), or only one time?
So 'a pi a a a a' -> 'a (a a) a a' -(1 merge)-> 'a ((a a) a) a' -and then left-associativity-> '((a ((a a) a)) a)'
OR
'a pi a a a a' -> 'a (a a) a a' -(1 merge)-> 'a ((a a) a) a' -merge again because the group sizes are 1 3 1-> 'a (((a a) a) a)'?
If the first:
then (imo) your system is not consistent with regular toki pona, as 'tomo pi mama mama meli mi' means my grandmother's house.
So I will assume you mean the second and you do the merging as long as there are groups in the 'wrong' order.

However, I think this too has its own problem:
consider 'a pi a a pi a a' = 'a (a a) (a a)' =(left assoc)= '((a (a a)) (a a))'
now the speaker remembers that his text would be more clear with a 'ni' after the third a:
'a pi a a ni pi a a'
the problem is that this now means something completely different:
'a pi a a ni pi a a' = 'a (a a) ni (a a)' =merging= 'a ((a a)) ni) (a a)' =merging again! because the group sizes are 1 3 2=
'a (((a a) ni) (a a))', the last two words now apply not to the first word!, so even though our speaker merely wanted to inject a small word for clarification, now he has to rethink their whole pi-structure. In my opinion this makes this system very hard to use, not just in speech (where its pretty much impossible imo), but even in writing! Have I understood you correctly, or have I misunderstood sth?

[limber obsidian]

Um thanks for reviewing my idea from like, a month ago?
It's from when I'm still a jan sin to toki pona
I do appreciate your effort, though.

By the way I have a new idea for removing ambiguity from pi
Hopefully it would be slightly better than my last one
It would sound a bit silly though

If it still doesn't work
Well solving pi will always be on my bucket list

[limber obsidian]

Here goes nothing
lu - see below

Let's think of regrouping modifiers as brackets. e.g. jan pi kulupu esun pi tomo telo
under current definitions it would either be:

jan (kulupu esun (tomo telo)) anu:
jan (kulupu esun) (tomo telo)
creating ambiguity.

pi now opens a new bracket without closing it. In that case it would be the first sentence.
To get the second sentence lu is used, which closes the bracket.
It would be "jan pi kulupu esun lu pi tomo telo"

With these we can create words with many grouped modifiers without ambiguity.
jan pi sona wawa pi tenpo pini pi ma Sonko is always:

jan (sona wawa (tenpo pini (ma Sonko)))
while jan pi sona wawa pi tenpo pini lu lu pi ma Sonko (note that two lu is used to close both brackets):
jan (sona wawa (tenpo pini)) (ma Sonko)

Some even more complex sentences:
jan pi sona wawa lu pi tenpo pini pi ma Sonko lu pi ma Nijon lu lu pi tomo sona mi pi kulupu Lonsi

jan (sona wawa) (tenpo pini (ma Sonko) (ma Nijon)) (tomo sona mi (kulupu Lonsi))

Notes:

1. multiple lu in a row is accepted to close brackets, but multiple pi are not.
2. It might sound silly.
3. It might be too complex for toki pona (I can't even comprehend this thing in a short time)

[lucid aspen]

ermmm.... reserved word alert !!!!! jan Sonja isn't gonna like this one !!!! /

[limber obsidian]

UPDATE turn it to lun

anyways I hope this isn't too terrible

[lucid aspen]

i think to fix pi we should revive the X pi Y en Z construction again (not really a joke but i know it's not happening so idk what that makes it)

[hardy cloud]

order of operations in toki pona when /

where every word has a priority. pi and lu are used as brackets

oops wrong thread

should I post it in #sona-musi

no

[kindred pollen]

What's that ? Can you please explain

[rough mantle]

It used to be common to use en inside a pi phrase, for example translating “chess” as “musi pi kiwen walo en kiwen pimeja” (game of white pieces and black pieces)

Now this is never used

[lucid aspen]

we should bring it back (same tone indicator as the previous message except it's not a tone indicator so i moved it to parentheses)

i think other historical uses of pi are kinda odd and don't work with how pi actually works now but imo this one could feasibly still work with the current way pi works

[outer drum]

The main problem I initially saw with this was the potential for some notable ambiguity (take for example "A pi B en C en D", where it could be grouped as "A pi (B en C) en D" or "A pi (B en C en D)".
However, I think cases like these might be relatively unlikely considering the "two-thing" rule that pi has, so I'd be okay with an update that pushed this change to stable release

[keen kernel]

i - li, changed as i is not a word, and to fit with e

[rough mantle]

and to be closer to tok pisin i

[native root]

le - e, changed as le is not a word, and to fit with li

[urban owl]

nita - story, fairytale, folklore, mythology, cultural background, novel, book, fantasy, imagination, creativity, escapism

[lucid aspen]

i agree

[onyx torrent]

ni li sama ala sama “kana”?

[weak citrus]

kana

usage

sandbox (no book)

definition

dream; trance, hypnosis, hallucination; illusion, fantasy, imaginary; narrative, story, myth

see also

oni, powe, jume

⚠️ This proposed word is in the sandbox. It is not in use by the community.

[onyx torrent]

a, ante lili

[golden wagon]

i think it's stemmed from a broader fear of being "too englishy" with regard to grammar

[golden wagon]

novel/book i don't like. the rest of these are an interesting space on their own

background, backstory, context could also be good additions

[lucid aspen]

i agree

background would actually be really useful because i heep wanting some sort of word for "base" and somehow end up landing on noka and then nobody gets what i'm yapping about

[golden wagon]

i am scouting this for worthy editions additions to my tokiponido/dialect project

[golden wagon]

although this kinda feels disjunct and off to me. like creativity is ken musi

[lucid aspen]

kana but without eep

[golden wagon]

i also redefined "powe" a bit in a way that it overlaps things like imagination too

i hate the "lie" connotation powe has

[lucid aspen]

actually yeah now that you mention it i can't think of anything i'd want to describe as powe pona

[golden wagon]

powe could be a dream, a vision

it's not "false" but it's not physical either

[lucid aspen]

yea i mean like the current textbook powe

[golden wagon]

small changes can make words so much better

[lucid aspen]

true !

[golden wagon]

yeah okay
my idea la:
nita: "context, story, tale, lore, event, history, mythology"
powe: "not (physically) real, fiction, imagination, creativity, dream, vision"

[keen kernel]

following this i think
jami: "clean, sanitary, spotless, immaculate, cleansed"

[golden wagon]

i like kepa as filling that antonym to jaki while also doing its own unique things

sala
<- arabic salam
peace, quiet, tranquility, hope

there's more to this space i need to feel out but there's a really good core

[lucid aspen]

kepa is cool

[golden wagon]

agreement. mutual understanding. shared beliefs

[urban owl]

it's more about cultural background and folklore

[urban owl]

those are just by extension, not the core meaning

[urban owl]

pona, kon pona

[golden wagon]

i think this is why adding "history" and "event" might make sense, since they're often intertwined

"intertwined" is a great use for linluwi

[urban owl]

nn, i didn't thought of that but yes, by extension

[golden wagon]

i also am working on my own nimisin redefinition/addition project

[urban owl]

wawa

[golden wagon]

so i probably have diff vision

the fantasy/imagination/creativity fits better in the way i changed powe

i'll post a more indepth look on pali mi sometime sooner than later

[urban owl]

pona lukin

i don't like powe because it sounds like lies and bad things

[golden wagon]

Yes! I explicitly removed this connotation

[urban owl]

i wanted a word for folklore as an essential foundation of ANY culture

[golden wagon]

The word as a whole is still good though it's definitely making the cut

i made a sitelen pona too hang on

kind of riffing off of sona/lipu and majuna

making sitelen pi nimi sin is very fun tbh

[lucid aspen]

true

[urban owl]

sitelen nita!

tbh i don't like much sitelens that are fusions of other sitelens

i am not a good designer neither so, pona!

[golden wagon]

i think lorewise it makes sense though
radicals are a super common feature of logographic systems

it also makes learning and identification easier

[urban owl]

ken

idk if it's good but maybe it could also be a saxon rune

[lucid aspen]

umbrella

[urban owl]

broken umbrella

[keen kernel]

idk glyph

[meager mason]

man im sad

i want to make a good nimisin

but i only have terrible nimisin ideas

[urban owl]

remember kokosila is a nimi ku suli

[sacred basin]

aswell as kijetesantakalu

[meager mason]

fun fact: if you say kokosila, you are kokosila'ing

[native root]

fun fact: 100 percent of people who speak toki pona, also knows esperanto?*
-# *according to people who can speak both languages

[pseudo vessel]

toki Epelanto li

[golden wagon]

esperanto is chill tbh. terrible as an IAL but there's no such thing as a good IAL anyways

[lucid aspen]

esperanto is interesting grammatically but the roots make me wanna explode

esperanto relex when

[urban owl]

the 2398457 esperantonidos out there:

[slow sky]

ea

[pseudo vessel]

there is a not fully good but quite good auxlang out there partially based on Esperanto but only a small part of vocabulary other vocabulary and syntax being brought from other languages and common linguistic structures i think it's called toki pona

[hardy cloud]

a priori IA conlang when

[pseudo vessel]

toki pona but ignore all the etymologies because half of them are completely unrecognisable anyways /musi

[lucid aspen]

inteligencia artificial ??

[urban owl]

(isiping about nita and here are more things)

nita - story, fairytale, folklore, mythology, cultural background, novel, book, fantasy, imagination, creativity, escapism, storytelling, oral tradition, legend, tale, epic, history, song, religion, nostalgia, poem, starting point, foundation.
{alternatives: musi, nasin, toki}

[lucid aspen]

will be adding this to my personal vocabulary

[urban owl]

yayy i'm a nimisin celebrity

[lucid aspen]

if you say nita2-ike it looks like a brella

[urban owl]

nita - ... | ALT brella
/musi

[golden wagon]

etymology?

[urban owl]

when i was a young tokiponist i made the nimisin 'nisota' (from spanish 'historia'). when i decided to bring it back but better, i shortered it to nita because i don't like trisyllabic words

[lucid aspen]

nistoria

[urban owl]

hisota

[meager mason]

how does h > n????

[urban owl]

aesthetic

[stuck spear]

it's even funnier because h is silent

[urban owl]

shhh
s

actually isota would make much more sense nn

[hardy cloud]

ita

[onyx torrent]

nisita - a small nisa

(/j)

[stuck spear]

nisitica - nisita chiquita

[native root]

guys

toki

[neon pendant]

muu

[hallow plaza]

This is a very experimental nasa nimi sin I thought of:
ipu - marks the end of a pi clause. It would be used to remove ambiguity when two pi phrases effect the same headnoun. It would treat them as nested by default (for example, jan pi sona kiwen pi laso loje would mean person who knows about purple rocks. To change the meaning to purple person who knows about rocks, you'd add ipu: jan pi sona kiwen ipu pi laso loje, the ipu marking the end of the sona kiwen clause.
For sitelen pona I'd use an inverted pi or upside-down to.

[onyx torrent]

we need a list of every nimisin created to fix the "pi problem"

[onyx torrent]

however this is reasonable

[onyx torrent]

it looks similar to this one

[golden wagon]

it's always super logical language feeling

and also like natural languages have this ambiguity???

i think pi ≠ of might be an overcorrection

it's not 100% equivalent and some weird constructions existed in early use but nesting pi isn't really a problem that people make it out to be

[onyx torrent]

pi nasin (of course)

[onyx torrent]

i think it's a helpful distinction to make early on because equating them can imply a lot of things
but for a lot of translations from toki pona to english, "of" is way more convenient to use than what /relex uses ("concerning")

[golden wagon]

right

[weak citrus]

female concerning loving female

this is concerning

[lucid aspen]

ni li pi

[onyx torrent]

ni kin li pi

[weak citrus]

this is also concerning

[hallow plaza]

Oh yeah that's almost exactly the same as ipu

[hallow plaza]

"Solutions" to pi ambiguity definitely aren't necessary by any means, but I think it is better to have an optional solution than none at all

[golden wagon]

i think it's kind of falling into turning toki pona into a log-lang

[meager mason]

toaqi poloj

[wispy vortex]

grouping ambiguity resolution doesn't really happen in natural languages

and for languages that have it, it's generally done through noun declension agreement or stuff like that

the notion of pairs of opening and closing particles is unnatural and doesn't really exist in natural languages

which makes it especially hard to process when speaking naturally

[golden wagon]

right. it feels unnecessary and the whole prohibition on nested pi also feels silly by extension

[wispy vortex]

also i have never encountered a situation where i was confused by nested pi

[golden wagon]

right. can we stop teaching this honestly

[wispy vortex]

i think suggesting not using multiple pi is good

[golden wagon]

i also think it's there to like prevent "overusing" pi. which is fair

[wispy vortex]

ye

ime beginners will often try to cram a bunch of information about something to get a specific noun phrase

instead of using more sentences and whatnot to be clearer

[golden wagon]

this is the counter issue to be sure

but also i think sometimes cramming noun phrases might be better in limited cases

"no nested pi" tends to especially fall apart in very complex conversation

[wispy vortex]

lon lon

[golden wagon]

because like. you do genuinely need the extra detail

it's kinda like how english teachers tell their younger students that "you can't start a sentence with 'because'"

Because many younger children will make sentence fragments with it like "I eat candy. Because I like it."

(notice what i did there)

[wispy vortex]

yeahh this makes sense

i see this in the context of answering questions

"Why do you like candy"
"because it's sweet"

[golden wagon]

KIN