career-advice

[deft herald]

If your goal is to make money doing it, you need to understand that it will take time

[buoyant seal]

I don't see why u think js being better than python 😄

Anyway, i am golang lover than applies it for everything.
But i can also say that there is a time for quick scripting trash coding, that all companies need.
Because it has lower barrier entry, and those scripting languages accumulated in some places fabulous ecosystems for quick coding.
It allows companies making cheap systems for low costs.
So... no... despite my love for golang i realize it will never be the dominating language, because it is just not for everyone needs. And not everyone is able to meet its requirements to use efficiently
I can hope it is to happen may be, but i don't believe it ever will
(I do suspect Golang can overthrow JVM world dominance for quality systems though) (Also Golang will beat Rust/C/C++ and etc languages in 95%+ cases because it is just more productive to write in it. But not everything can be done in golang, for some stuff we do need things like Rust and etc)

[kindred oyster]

"knowing HTML" shouldnt take a lot of time

getting good at it will some good amount of time

[true hatch]

I wanna start with JS or C#

[kindred oyster]

unless you have a very fixed end goal in mind , it doesnt really matter what you start with

[mint oracle]

well market is not depend on my choice in india its difficult to get a tech job market is really competitive here
Yeah Java is quite popular but i like python for backend glory to fastapi/django but django/fastapi is not popular here

mostly companies use js and java here as backend

[buoyant seal]

😄 i learned Golang and now learn Java
If only to stop using Python and other scripting languages

i have sufficient mindset/stuff/style learned to be highly productive in Golang at least (thinking it all should work in Java too)

[mystic violet]

60% of web developers are self taught, and the average salary in the uk is 60k. Thoughts?

[buoyant seal]

i just can't be productive in Python/Js and etc. It takes too much bloody time carefully writing gradual typed code and debugging its errors
Well... i can be productive in Python because i used it a lot and learnt throughly its tricks... i still don't like amount of put effort to make quality there
I can write with 1.5/2x lesser effort in Golang (may be in Java too)

[scarlet laurel]

python didnt work out fro me as im not interested in ds
same for js and webdev
cobol i can learn but i think you need a good network to land a job

[mint oracle]

there is a lot of lang to learn sad but not enough time to learn all things

[scarlet laurel]

i think the data is skewed by crypto/web3 devs

[mystic violet]

An average developer’s salary in the United States is around $75,800 per year``` Do you think this is true

[scarlet laurel]

look out for median instead of mean

[mint oracle]

I think i need an internship of both web and ml so i can decide which is better for me

[mystic violet]

its a possibility

[mint oracle]

i just applied for and django internship and cleared 2 rounds and didn't participate in last round bcoz stipend is less

[scarlet laurel]

webdev will only be less in demand with ai helpers/llms developing
design /frontend may be less affected

a good ml field is difficult to get in so if you do get one with great peers i think you're set

[mint oracle]

i think backend has more demand than frontend

[mint oracle]

u need atleast one yr of hardwork and few internship need to read some books i am thinking to get my first internship as django dev then switch to ml

[scarlet laurel]

yes but with the help of a good ai programmers efficiency increases and demand for more human workforce decreases

[scarlet laurel]

goodluck brother

[mint oracle]

like what happens to mechnical automobile industry

[scarlet laurel]

yea pretty much automotives after ford

i dont get what youre saying

[mint oracle]

which industry has more job other than tech

[lapis wind]

Trade, public service probably

retail as well probably

[mint oracle]

in engineering

[scarlet laurel]

i think govt jobs and healthcare

[scarlet laurel]

all eng is tech, no?

[mint oracle]

||I think as a doctor u can generate passive income easily by selling organs||

[scarlet laurel]

shouldve kept it hidden

[mint oracle]

I just choose wrong proffession

[mint oracle]

why u sound ||Asian||

[scarlet laurel]

yea i wish i was a twitch streamer before 2019

[scarlet laurel]

i am

[mint oracle]

Great!

[mint oracle]

what's ur job?

[scarlet laurel]

student

[true harness]

where did you find these stats?

[fast whale]

Could someone please review my cover letter? It is for a software engineer apprentice position at IBM. Thanks.

[mystic violet]

https://colorlib.com/wp/web-development-statistics/ The sources are listed under each section.

[mint oracle]

may be apply for the role that has max chance to get u interview

[mint oracle]

send here so many experts here

[fast whale]

Hmm, I thought about doing that, but you know cover letters are kind of more personal than resumes.

[mint oracle]

apply for all man!

[lunar hamlet]

hello guys

[mystic violet]

I look forward to seeing how people are going to invalidate these sources

One time someone just straight up said "nah, this source is fake"

[mint oracle]

what's the name of company

I am not going to apply

[mystic violet]

Any concerns you want to raise? No?

[mint oracle]

Ur couriosity make me curious dm me company name or website

I am not going to apply for any internship for next 2 months

[true harness]

I can't see the actual data they pulled the education from; it's blocked behind some account creation. also, the salary figures they give contradict the BLS, which puts ~120k as the median

[mystic violet]

So, the salaries are even higher??

Who is paying these mfs

Where does the money come from

[mint oracle]

so what's service they offer

[true harness]

the reason I'm suspicious of the self taught number is that this survey puts the percentage of devs with no college whatsoever at about 6%. https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#education-ed-level-prof

[mystic violet]

fuck sakes

fuck it idc anymore

[lapis wind]

Nothing new then xD

But anyway, I think you can still be self-taught with a degree, but typically you need some degree

[mystic violet]

Do they just make up studies then?

why??

[cedar plover]

So I'm interest to get into a master program and I'm currently finishing computer science BS degree. I am interested in embedded system like smart devices that helps elderly function like stair lift or exoskeleton for the elderly. The school I'm interest in have master of computer science program and ai ans machine learning. Which should I go for

[mystic violet]

i mean im getting a uni degree anyway but still

[balmy mural]

The survey also says learning to code are mainly from online resources at 80%. These two measures aren't mutually exclusive from each other though. I think there's a ton of people in tech that have tech adjacent degrees and didn't actually learn it via school

[true harness]

for sure. I would agree most practical skills are learned on your own

[mystic violet]

Anyway, what could set me apart as a freelance front end web developer? (Besides a degree because Im already getting that)

[lapis wind]

Have 20 years of experience, an amazing portfolio page and an existing network of contacts from previous work

[mystic violet]

Something realistic, maybe?

[lapis wind]

Have 5+ years of experience, an amazing portfolio page and an existing network of contacts from previous work

[mystic violet]

Amazing portfolio is achievale, for example. 20 years of waiting is not

[balmy mural]

Another quick look at the actual data shows that it's also a multiple choice option. So I would assume almost every single person has picked online as a resource since after your education that's how you continue learning. I'd like to see how the question was phrased, but I'd assume it was something along the lines of "how are you currently learning"
https://www.kaggle.com/datasets/stackoverflow/stack-overflow-2023-developers-survey?select=survey_results_public.csv

[fringe sphinx]

The first thing is having a network. That'll make or break you. Everything else you can figure out.

[mystic violet]

And how do I get a network?

[fringe sphinx]

Never have lunch alone.

[lapis wind]

Networking, events, previous jobs, etc...

[mystic violet]

Meet random devs at bars?

[balmy mural]

Talk to colleagues, networking events, conferences, etc.

[mystic violet]

ok thanks

[balmy mural]

If you're still in uni, your biggest networking resource is your fellow students. Most of them will enter the field in the future as well

[scarlet laurel]

i saw on twitter that a guy got call from openai by just being very human in his cover letter

like explicitly stating that he was so dedicated he didnt use any of the llms

yea i think being a human aware enough to do stuff on your own is a big statement to the recruiters nowadays

wait letme see if i can get that tweet it was pretty funny

[tranquil sigil]

Hey how are you guys doing

I'm looking to start a job as a juniro developer for a company. I was wondering if anyone here has that job title and what kind of work would you do daily.

[scarlet laurel]

@turbid bobcat https://x.com/advaitpaliwal/status/1767414716010217791

Advait Paliwal (@advaitpaliwal) on X

the openai residency deadline was tonight so i decided to shoot my shot

Twitter · Mar 12, 2024, 4:57 AM

[versed nacelle]

look at army and what poeple in there do @tranquil sigil

[scarlet laurel]

https://x.com/advaitpaliwal/status/1773187623420362872

Advait Paliwal (@advaitpaliwal) on X

it worked

Twitter · Mar 28, 2024, 3:17 AM

[versed nacelle]

cyber engineer wise and job roles that use people who code

[scarlet laurel]

@fast whale

yea i think the text wont be as effective but the essence remains

corporations want people that can think for themselves

[icy berry]

I mentor junior developers at work, i can share some insights if you want to know

[scarlet laurel]

yea

[tranquil sigil]

@icy berry should I message you here or on PM

[icy berry]

oh we only use the server! 😄

[tranquil sigil]

ok awesome lol

[icy berry]

so what type of team/company are you looking for?

what type of skills do you have for an employer?

[tranquil sigil]

So I'm currently a tattoo artist, I've done that for the last 5 years. Before that I was a railroad foreman. I mainly studied programming and web application development when I was younger so I plan on building a portfolio website and coding a few applications such as an IRC client to showcase my skills.

[deft herald]

I was also once a junior engineer 🙂

[icy berry]

fantastic

[tranquil sigil]

The company is a large book publishing company. One of my tattoo clients is an employee there and offered me a job.

[icy berry]

are they looking for help with web development?

[tranquil sigil]

I'm basically trying to figure out what that job entails and what I need to start refreshing on to be beneficial to the team.

[scarlet laurel]

JE once; humble forever. LMAO

[deft herald]

😄 lol

[deft herald]

Did they give you any sort of written description?

[icy berry]

from my point of view, whenever I look at a new candidate, there are a few things that i already have in mind.

1: this person, given that it is a junior possition, i have to teach how to be productive

i also have to mentor, guide and help them along with tasks for the next.. 6-12 months

so i need to have the time to do that, meaning i cant hire multiple juniors, or else i cannot get any work done myself.

2: so knowing that i have to teach them what they need to know, the most important skill im looking for are, will they match with the rest of the team. are they able to come to work at time and are they able to deliver their work on time (even if it is small oor litte, consistentcy and predictability matters)

[tranquil sigil]

Absolutely lol sorry my daughter unplugged my router 😅

[icy berry]

my son used to do that as well 😄

[tranquil sigil]

Waiting on my pc to reconnect

[icy berry]

no worries..

[tranquil sigil]

I had a long response written out and noticed it not wanting to send

[icy berry]

so if you wanted to work with me, i would not look much at your formal skills, those does not matter, but what matters is that you have personal projects to showcase

[tranquil sigil]

But I’m experienced in html, css, JavaScript (jquery and Ajax), php (pdo), mysql, and python

[icy berry]

nice stack, those are very important skills to have in a web stack

[tranquil sigil]

I also can do pentesting with sql injections xss and a few other things

[pastel thunder]

Hi, applying everywhere, currently in India, so mostly applying in India

[scarlet laurel]

@tranquil sigil might be irrelevant but when i went for my in office evaluation the pm tried to see how much i was flexible with the tech i worked on and how compliant/vocal i was about all his ideas

[tranquil sigil]

absolutely, the reason they even offered me the job was when we was talking while I tattooed him. I knew more about programming then most his current workers lol

I had another IT guy say that as well a week prior. My coworkers brother, I figured Id give it a shot. I'm wanting to work IT but also still work at the tattoo shop after where I set my own schedule

[pastel thunder]

Is probably will be harder right?
Plus my neighbor is nepal, pakistan, which would pay even less
china has poor relations

[scarlet laurel]

what are your preferred fields/where ae your from

[pastel thunder]

haha lol. spam spam...

I did this to get remote research opportunity in CMU,
job would proably be harder, though

[scarlet laurel]

hows the market where you live/ are applying to?

france seems promising

i heard us/uk is pretty bad

[pastel thunder]

here in India, population and not getting noticed is the problem.

[scarlet laurel]

i think its the same everywhere

[pastel thunder]

dont know what the heck they are looking for, that they cant find or notice me

connection seem to matter a lot nowadays

[scarlet laurel]

i have had friends tell me the same
also i was recently rejected from a soft engineering job just coz i wasnt proficient with pandas

oh

[scarlet laurel]

its the only thing that has ever mattered lmao

[pastel thunder]

well the degree and need is forever increasing

[scarlet laurel]

hmm goodluck both @pastel thunder & @turbid bobcat bro its only gonna get worse

[tranquil sigil]

When building an IRC client for a portfolio would you recommend doing the protocols from scratch or using an IRC library in python.

[pastel thunder]

cuz this is peak hiring season

[tranquil sigil]

Using a library shows that you're efficient and know how to save time. However coding the socket connections and handling the backend details show that you know how it works.

maybe I should code my own API?

[scarlet laurel]

Always do it from scratch

[tranquil sigil]

for learning purposes?

absolutely, I've written bots for IRC before but never a client with a GUI. The GUI is going to be the new part for me

Would you guys suggest tkinter over pyqt5

I've not heard of electron before. I'll look into it.

I

I'll write it down in my research list. thank you

I love javascript, is node.js still used now days?

Once I create the IRC client I will probably make a mobile version of it for IOS on my phone as well.

I feel like each language has their own strengths. Javascript is basically designed for UI.

[dusty fulcrum]

Just sharing: Intreview success, position fail? Finished 6 rounds of successful interview with positive feedback, they determined they wanted to hire me at a higher level than the position they interviewed me for, so more meetings before ultimately they decided they could not afford to hire someone at that position. This is the second time I've talked to this company, the last time was a few years ago they had an offer, but then went into a company wide hiring freeze.

[vapid jay]

Worst thing is when you go through all the effort for nothing, such a time waste

[dusty fulcrum]

I had 11 rounds with a well known game company involving 19 interviewers a month ago. 2 different managers in the process said they wanted to hire me to their team, but ultimately it did not work out.

The company already has a bad reputation, but the position sounded interesting to me so I was willing to try it.

Yeah, that was a month ago, the more recent one was a different company who keep reaching out to me. But it's somewhat funny them coming back with "we don't have the funds for you" and then seeing their boss in the news for buying yet another yacht. 🙂 🚢

I'm starting to make a collection of bad interview questions though, so I'm getting something out of it.

I'm not so sure how many "good" companies there are out there, your best bet is hoping for a good manager.

I've had a lot of ex-amazon and ex-facebook people interview for positions I had available, and they are not fond of their experience with those companies, and yet those companies persist with their model of "hire and use up".

[eager zealot]

They were the common everyone knows them and assumes they're the best companies to start with.

[tranquil sigil]

I just realized chat gpt is cheating like hell lol

[eager zealot]

Oh for sure. Tech is getting the point of the cycle oil went through a decade ago.

The super-majors went from being the way to start and the best to work at... now they're pretty much on parity.

[serene canyon]

hi i want to presue a career in cs but dont know if its futureproof?

[eager zealot]

It's tough - on one hand it's good business sense to vertically integrate and horizontally expand into adjacent markets... but it's hell on a healthy economy when raw growth is no longer the name of the game.

I'm fielding more questions from the powers-that-be lately on how to get back to on-prem and built-for-purpose software, which makes me really curious how much we're spending on cloud storage for that IOT project that kicked off this year.

[gritty rivet]

Nothing is future proof. You will have to keep learning for the rest of your career.

[gilded yacht]

hi guys, what kind of team wiki platform are you using, or think most prevalent right now?

[white relic]

shared onenotes on microsoft teams

[balmy mural]

If you mean for documentation, we use confluence

[white relic]

(might be more of an offtopic question)

[static marten]

Hi guys, I am a beginner, should I learn py from YT?

For now, I copy codes and edit them in my own way

[obtuse iron]

hi! i need someone to create a program for dicord giveaway, pls dm me I PAY FOR THIS

[pine sleet]

!res don't do that. check this out and build some projects

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[pine sleet]

!rule 9 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[autumn hinge]

copying code can be helpful, but you arent learning as much as you could be if you dont understand the code you are using

[gilded yacht]

Thank you for mentioning this, is it open source so that could be easier for deploy.

[balmy mural]

No, confluence is not open source. #tools-and-devops would probably be a better place to ask about what other options there are and what you could use

[white relic]

my first real software job was writing a tool to convert confluence pages to mediawiki format

I'm sure automated tools exist now

[balmy mural]

We have some configs stored on confluence. When business wants a change, they speak to our BA's, they update the page and we've written generators that we run to generate the sql code to make the config changes

[mystic pivot]

i wanted a friend of 16 year old whom with i can learn coding anyone interested

this is not my pfp its different person

i mean the person on my pfp is not me its a another guy

[alpine fossil]

Greetings there,

Hope all are well. Anyone here who is/has been a student in University of Calgary for graduate program? I recently got admitted (please hold your congratulations, at this point it seems getting rejected would have been more merciful), but the tuition fees are just abysmally high (10K cad at the beginning of the semester for two courses).

My batch starts from 20th august, and I'm just lost. I have to somehow get a 30 CAD per hour job, and earn 10K within 2 months. I thought about getting a loan from someone close to pay for the first sem and try to save for the second, but the job market seems so bad for international students just coming in (you can barely get a dish washing position at 15 CAD per hour). I'm a AI/ML developer, and can proficiently code in python, C, and can even learn new languages within two weeks to handle the workload, but it seems most roles within 30 CAD require more than 5 years of professional work (I only have 2, given I only recently graduated from Bachelors) and ironically require a masters.

I am really stressed, and just need some advice as to how I can afford this from someone who's been there and done that.

Apologies if I sound desperate, frankly I am. It's really funny how for most people this is a happy time, but for me it's been absolute hell trying to figure out a way to actually afford it. I feel there is some way, maybe some scholarship I'm not seeing, some loan I'm not finding, heck even a job that's currently open and would take me immediately, but honestly I've had no luck. I keep calculating different options, but end up a few thousand short for each semester.

This is in Calgary, so I've been only researching jobs in that area. I have, but most are asking for 5+ years of experience and a master out of the gate when I'm literally trying to earn money to afford the masters.

I have 0 ego honestly, like some tell me "you're an expert" or "you're a specialist with 3 years of experience, you shouldn't be looking at server jobs or dishwashing jobs", but I take what I can get at this point.

None have gotten back to me yet. I have applied to I think 10+ now.

I really just want to go for the program. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity, just perfect for me at this juncture, so if there's some way, anyway for me to pay and have time to study I'll take it.

[mystic pivot]

ace i wanna talk with u

[alpine fossil]

I've only found those. There are practically no python development jobs, and about 5 or so AI/ML roles open which require the 5+ years of experience, and a few which ask for the masters.

[mystic pivot]

ace im 16 yr old just started learning python fr i need guidance of somebody

[alpine fossil]

I've even applied to the server roles, the service roles, I don't mind them at all but the pay is too low, I need 30 CAD because that's the minimum that would get me the 10K in two months or so.

[mystic pivot]

im learning dictionary in python

[alpine fossil]

I am. Another thing is the time constraint. I have to get the role almost immediately.

Put yourself in my shoes, what would you do? Not asking rhetorically, I am asking genuinely. I have 10K in savings.

[mystic pivot]

can u reply my comment

[alpine fossil]

That's the weird part. I have scoured the website (you can check if you like too, it's all public), but they basically don't have scholarships. They have these awards which are like 1k, 2k, and most are already expired.

I am not asking for money from anyone specifically for this. Also, the living expenses are manageable, you can make do with 1000 CAD monthly. My only issue is the tuition.

[mystic pivot]

ok im done going i will ask my brother for guidance he is graduated from IIT bombay

[leaden jasper]

@mystic pivot If you need help with python, please go to #python-discussion. This is not the right channel.

[mystic pivot]

i will remember this ac 07 not helped me

[alpine fossil]

Nada. Been checking those all day. There's a few good ones, but they're only for domestic students.

[mystic pivot]

i understood can we talk in that channel

[alpine fossil]

I am useless to you right now mate. I am on the verge of a panic attack, so nothing useful will come out of me right now.

I mean it's immediate since they ask for the tuition beforehand.

[leaden jasper]

Ask your python related questions in that channel and whoever can help will try to help

[mystic pivot]

u look smart tho can i ask u

[alpine fossil]

I'm afraid to do that. I feel if they sniff out that I'm having such severe trouble they'll just revoke it. It's a business after all for them, they're not running a charity or really care about qualifications if you can't pay for the program.

[red sentinel]

hello

[alpine fossil]

That is the only option, if they take me in soon...

Wouldn't you when there's other applicants who can pay?

I'm really just shocked, like my professor who is a lead research scientist in US in a top university and has had intimate experience with graduate programs was also shocked at the cost. I don't know if this is really how much it costs these days or just this university in specific.

I don't really have the heart to click the reject offer button. If push comes to shove then I'll just have to let the timer run out on that one.

He's in US, and I think he would have mentioned if he knew any sponsorship offers.

Those are manageable. 500 per month for housing, 400 or so for food.

I'll speak with him this thursday. We meet weekly for a research project. I can, but doubt he'll have any ideas. He's really kind and compassionate, I feel if he had any ideas he'd've shared them.

I mean what can I say at the end? It's basically sugar coating "I can't afford your tuition.". It seems it's my fault and it is - in the sense I should have researched the tuition further. I guess I just didn't really think about it since I didn't have the offer back then.

It's like that moment in the movies when the guy goes "Well I hadn't thought this far out because I didn't think we'd get past the first part."

That's fair. Though, he knows me very well after two years of meeting every week.

He's like a father than a professor at this point, so yeah, I feel he knows I always look to him for guidance when I share sth.

I always feel ashamed too, I wish I could have just said "Sir, I got the admission. Thank you for your time and hard work in mentoring me. I hope I make you proud!" than to bother him with these problems.

That's very kind of you, I appreciate just having someone to talk to and vent at least.

I'm going to try and sleep, I haven't been able to sleep for two days now. I'll see what I can come up tomorrow and get back here.

Thank you very much for the time and effort. Means the world.

[manic sand]

Hi everyone. Is learning python + pytorch a good segway into a remote career?

[atomic geode]

عندي قنات يوتوب إدا تبون تشتركوا فيها NOIR-333-

[white relic]

1. speak to the university's financial aid department. Financial aid is usually separate from admissions. They may not be able to help you, but they won't revoke your acceptance
2. Keep applying to jobs. Anything and everything. 10 is basically zero. Many really good jobs that might be available take longer than the two months you have to actually filter through the hiring process. You will probably have to get a job that doesn't pay as well as you would like, and use some or all of your savings in the meantime, because you need it urgently. But 10 applications is nothing. You need more than that and that probably means you need to expand your scope to employers that you haven't been considering so far.
3. Consider mental health resources available to you to help you deal with the wild levels of anxiety that you are clearly experiencing over this. Inability to sleep for days on end is a serious health problem.

[smoky drum]

Anyone got any idea if its any good to go to a trade school ?

[true harness]

a school has 2 goals: make money, and get students that will succeed and bring prestige to the school. if you show you're in the latter category (which you have by being admitted), they don't need to worry that much about the first half. so trentj's advice about loans and financial aid is good. also note that your income potential will increase after an MS, so some debt now may not be a big deal

[gritty rivet]

Good to do what exactly?

[fringe sphinx]

Very situational question. What trade? What country? What are your options and interests?

[hearty island]

does anyone have a good cost of living calculator website i can use? i could potentially b getting a job offer soon

hmmm

[near ocean]

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/

[hearty island]

doesn't have the place i'd be at

[wispy lichen]

Can anyone explain to me their interview process after getting a job in data science/ml? Plsss, I need help ;-;
I need advice on anything so that I won’t go hungry after graduation 😭

[vapid jay]

Hello guys,

I'm a full stack web developer and i want to enhance my skills so I'm thinking to get into data science, as a web developer is it really beneficial for me to get into data science?if yes then how(please elaborate)?

As I have still 1.5 years to complete my degree is it beneficial to give this time by learning data science?

With "data scientist + web developer" do I provide value to the marketplace than a "only web developer" (also in future)??

If learning data science with web development is bad idea then you can also suggest me some other thing to learn instead of data science with web dev.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank You

[buoyant seal]

Data science and full stack development are badly compatible.

Full stack dev is basically frontend dev that barely knows backend development usually.

Considering weight of Data science to here, you will be out of human capacities to be expert in any relatively reachable time.

I will recommend an alternative:
If u want being data scientist, concentrate on being data engineer in addition.

If u want to continue being Frontend dev.
Learn backend development actually in depth. Thoroughly some relational db engine, learning unit testing, code architecture stuff, things for productivity of code scaling like static typing, docker compose for dev end enhancement, best practices of your languages.
Learn languages for more quality development, Java, Golang
From there path is extendable further into other job roles. But potentially quality backend development will already overwhelm u for some long enough time. (Or entire career)

Quality front/backend dev can choose to move to more manager stuff involved job roles if desired.

Also if u learnt Java as backend dev, u could be learning doing desktop or Android stuff if desired in addition later

Optionally path can be diverged to being DevOps engineer.

Optionally nothing prevents learning data engineering without data science

[buoyant seal]

Anyway my point
Data scientist synergizes better with Data engineer

While Backend development learned thoroughly, synergizes better with your learned Frontend(full stack) stuff

And from learnt backend stuff, multiple other career options are available, as it serves as good foundation for a lot of other stuff (or just actually doing backend+front in quality way)

Also that u can't pick everything as there are natural human limits, and people need experts instead of someone who barely scratched a surface of a job role

Also, u could try in minimal capacity all the different stuff and just pick what u like more. Some people just can't be data scientists, some people just can't DevOps engineers or can't be QA and other job roles because they don't like them. Pick what you value and like to learn and doing

[vapid jay]

@buoyant seal got it all what you've said now I know where to go, thank you so much for this valuable info!!

[peak halo]

Please don't ask questions in more than one channel. I wrote a response in #data-science-and-ml without knowing what else had been said

[vapid jay]

So sorry for that, you can remove my question from either of them

[vapid jay]

asking the same question for AI/ML instead of data science (cuz I've seen alot of people learning ai/ml as a web dev)

any suggestions would be appreciated...

[peak halo]

If you want to go into AI/ML, you have to be willing to go all-in on that instead of web development. Because AI/ML is mostly about your understanding of theoretical math and your ability to apply it. Programming is only a means to that end.

And if you haven't already taken courses with that specific goal in mind, you will almost certainly have to get at least a master's.

But anyone can say that they're learning AI/ML. And they might just mean that they're learning how to make API calls to openai. Or it could mean that they really are learning AI/ML, but that doesn't mean they're learning it to a level that would be valuable to prospective employers.

[mint oracle]

example?

[full epoch]

What about industry jobs related to Ai/ML ?Which approach should we follow

[true hatch]

I finally know my dream job! I wanna own my own buisness, a corner store! Romainian theme bc Im romanian

[vapid jay]

I want to own a restaurant

[true hatch]

so cool!

[vapid jay]

In the next 7 years I’ll be leaving corporate to do so, I dont care about engineering or accounting

[true hatch]

Hope youll suceed!

[vapid jay]

Thanks bro

[true hatch]

Maybe we can do a Deli, like street food and corner store (same builiding). Im broke, Im not even an adult so Im just havin fun talking to people on discord

[vapid jay]

Fax

Facts

[true hatch]

#python-discussion

[mint oracle]

free treat for us

[mint oracle]

I heard that romanian and indian has same genetic dna

[craggy crag]

oh

[jolly sluice]

I heard that there is an impostor amongus

Someone here is not a human

They could be in this very chat...

It could be you, it could be me!

[limber flame]

What are some careers in python?

Or what careers would you suggest

[smoky quest]

there are way too many to list.
It will strongly depend on what you care about

[limber flame]

Yeah ok well I might do some research online to get a good idea on what I'm really looking for.

[craggy crag]

brah

[alpine fossil]

Thank you very much for taking the time to write this. It means the world. I'll try (1) and (2) further. I have nothing for (3), so I'll just try to push my way through it.

[alpine fossil]

You're too kind. I'd give anything for a good loan that allows me to study in peace and then find a job to pay it back in installments afterwards, but since I would be just getting there my credit score would be abysmally low so the interests may then become just as much troublesome.

Then I'd have to take a loan on top of a loan to pay the first loan back, and recursively do it until the interest rates don't break my back.

[smoky quest]

this is far from the fate of the average CS student

[alpine fossil]

How so? You mean it's wishful thinking?

[smoky quest]

the average student does not end up in a death spiral of interest rates ruining their lives

[alpine fossil]

I am apparently.

[smoky quest]

so it's equivalent to say that tomorrow you could die in a car accident. Sure, it's definitely possible, but you should not plan your future on that

[alpine fossil]

Well, I don't know what else to try. Taking a loan seems like the only viable option I have given the massive sum they want and how early they want it.

I scoured their awards pages, bursaries, etc. All are mostly expired, or those that seem like a good fit are for undergraduates.

I checked their payment plans, and was wishing for maybe a low-interest installment based payment, but nope. It's basically just PERMITTING you to pay in small amounts before the deadline, or to pay as a massive sum at the deadline. Issue is the fucking deadline, I know how to put small earnings under my mattress and pay it at the end, I don't need a plan for that.

[alpine fossil]

I wish I would. Seems like mercy at this point...

[smoky quest]

I know nothing about Canada. So it may be pertinent to check in forums more specialized and more experience with the education system in Canada

[errant edge]

developing games or devrloping a website, which is more consistent in terms of money making and more easier, contrastly which is more harder...

[mystic violet]

game development is probably 100x harder

if you want less risk, do websites

I respect you for not sharing your personal details

[alpine fossil]

You're too kind. But what worth is an entry if you can't actually enter?

It's like saying "Hey dude, you got admission to the most prestigious program at MIT, congrats! You can't go, and they're gonna give it to someone else, but hey, congrats!".

I am truly sorry I'm so bitter, I'm just so sad and just terrified at the chance of not getting to actually experience this. I've been waiting for this for 5 years...

[white relic]

You are bitter about bad things that might happen. Don't give up that dream because you've encountered your first obstacle. I guarantee there are many possible solutions to this problem that you haven't tried. Maybe none of them will work out for you and you will need to face that difficult reality. But it isn't a reality yet. Have a fallback plan, definitely. But you don't have to actually face tomorrow's problems before they happen to you and it does you no good to be bitter about what they might say or might do when you haven't even asked yet.

I love the scene in Spider-Man: No Way Home where Peter is just shocked by the suggestion that he can make a phone call to the office and ask them to reconsider. Young people often suffer from tunnel vision.

[alpine fossil]

Is it really might if it's seems guaranteed?

[white relic]

It's guaranteed not to work out if you refuse to try anything.

[alpine fossil]

I checked the financial aid office's services. They do three things :

1. Awards and bursaries : None that are live right now.
2. Emergency loan : Cannot be used for tuition, and can only be used once or twice, and is negligibly small. It's mostly for food or stuff like that.
3. Payment plan with a loan : The office doesn't offer installments in the sense that you say I will pay 10K in small amounts because I can't pay in full by deadline. It only says you can either pay it in full by deadline, or in small amounts by deadline, which doesn't help when the deadline is the issue.

Am I missing anything else?

[alpine fossil]

I am trying everything I can think of. They need someone to sign off on the loan because when you get there you have a low credit score, so you can't ask for much without a resident to give them assurance. Who would sign off as assurance for a stranger for 60K?

The other is if I work two jobs and get it which I can't legally as I can do max 40 hours per week, so I need at least 30 CAD to afford the tuition as I go.

The last option is to add delay to it by deferring which is risky because it can be grounds for automatic rejection by the applicant unless you have visa problems which are out of your hands.

So, I can't take a loan, I can't work two small jobs, I am currently having no luck finding any jobs that I'm eligible for let alone receiving answers back from them, and the university itself doesn't currently offer any significant aid for course-based graduate students in my faculty.

UofC is a public university though. It's not like I applied to a private academy for blue bloods.

I get that, there's tons of people in this very server who don't have a bachelor, but can teach undergraduate levels better than the professors. However, the employer wants the damned paper, regardless of experience, unless you have some rapport with them.

[white relic]

I see international students as much more worried about university prestige than Americans fwiw. I think it's a big deal in some countries like India

(But I agree with the principle)

[alpine fossil]

For mostly domestic students. They have a few for internationals but it's for thesis-based graduate students, and the ones that have no restriction are expired (they're from 2023 for some reason).

[white relic]

Did you actually call and talk to a person or just look at the website?

[alpine fossil]

I will say with utmost sincerety that I did not apply to UofC for its prestige. I checked the program and the research team there, what they're working on, who the professors are, and how useful they can be to my interests when I applied.

[alpine fossil]

I am trying to email them, but haven't been able to find the email to their office yet. I asked in a group of students from UofC but no one has replied back.

[alpine fossil]

I did talk with the students who are going there or have graduated and are from my nationality and origin, and that's all they offered, to try and take loan but it needs someone to sign off on it.

[white relic]

Another option I think maybe someone mentioned before is to ask if you can defer enrollment to get more time to come up with the money

That would fall under the admissions office

[alpine fossil]

I'm going to try that as a last last resort. It's very risky unless you have visa problems.

[white relic]

How do you know it's risky?

[alpine fossil]

From another student who has had the same problem.

She said she only had visa problems. The immigration was taking its sweet time to send the visa, so she couldn't enter the country to sit in the class, so she had to defer it. She got an ultimatum after asking for a second deferral (basically to enter one academic year later).

[white relic]

Getting an ultimatum is not risky, that's just the situation you are already in!

[alpine fossil]

They told her she would no longer have the admission offer. Sounds like an ultimatum, and sounds risky.

They're aware, they're being understanding by giving you one sem deferral.

[white relic]

That just means they won't defer enrollment indefinitely. It doesn't mean she was penalized for asking.

[alpine fossil]

Yeah not penalized for asking.

[long osprey]

hm

[alpine fossil]

I said you'd get some raised eyebrows when you tell them you need a deferral because you can't pay for it. Visa is alot more understandable, hence why I said unless it's a visa problem, deferral is tricky.

[white relic]

I don't think you have any reason to believe that.

[alpine fossil]

I mean it is my fault. It's an innocent mistake, but it's my fault nonetheless. They can say "You should have checked the tuition fee before applying." and it'd be fair.

I really don't know what I was thinking. You knew you couldn't afford it that fast, why'd it matter if you got an offer or not...

[white relic]

A (most likely) student employee at the admissions office is not going to blacklist you for calling and asking for information.

[alpine fossil]

I'll email them today once someone replies back to me with the correct email.

[white relic]

I might just be old but I really think you should consider calling them on the phone.

If you were local I would suggest going in person.

People try harder to help you when you interact with them more personally.

[silk sedge]

Can someone help me with my IT homework pls?

[alpine fossil]

I agree. It always helps when there's a face to the question.

The US one?

[white relic]

Hi!
This channel is for career discussion. If your homework relates to Python, you can try #❓｜how-to-get-help . If it isn't Python related, try asking in one of the off-topic channels, e.g. #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

[frail sundial]

guys does anyone here appeared for the pcep exam

if anyone taken plz help me how to prepare for the exam

[severe elbow]

I want to become a python developer but I don't want to get a CS degree I would rather self teach through online courses because I don't like math (otherwise I would). But I'm concerned that since I'm self taught and dont have CS degree it will be tough for me to get a job. What's your advice from you experienced developers out there?

[peak halo]

Get a CS degree.

[frail sundial]

its an entry for job

[severe elbow]

I would but I really am not the best at math that's my main concern and ive heard it's really hard

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not familiar with PCEP, but I imagine you first need to master the fundamentals. Have you used a practice site like exercism or codewars?

[peak halo]

You can learn math. Don't psych yourself into thinking that you're fundamentally incapable of learning math.

If you're not willing to get a CS degree, your chances of success are very low, and your time might be better spent preparing for a different career.

[fringe sphinx]

I hated math class. I love math.

[severe elbow]

Okay makes sense, I really want this career path so CS degree seems like it's needed then

[frail sundial]

i had done 430 leet problems

i want to learn python

need some resources and links

channels best for learning python

[peak halo]

!resources

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[fringe sphinx]

In what language? If you've done 430 leetcode problems in Python, I'd say you're pretty far along indeed.

(so I'm confused what you're looking for... beginner resources wouldn't be appropriate)

[frail sundial]

c

[fringe sphinx]

Ah, ok... so you're good with C and want to learn Python. That's totally different than "never coded before", which a lot of resources are for.

[frail sundial]

yes

[fringe sphinx]

So, the Python Tutorial https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html is pretty good for people who are strong in another language. It's a little more comprehensive than the beginner tutorials (ie: A Byte of Python, Automate the Boring Stuff).

Stel linked the resources page that has a lot of options, depending on what format you like

[frail sundial]

are there any videos

[fringe sphinx]

Click on the link

[frail sundial]

rather than docs because its more comprehensive

and take more time

[fringe sphinx]

As a manager, I would be very unhappy about this. I recall a peer (another manager) getting fired for doing someone elses work to "protect" them from getting fired.

[night zephyr]

are there any free python courses anyone would recommend for someone starting from no experience

[kindred oyster]

!res
automate the boring stuff with python free book

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[night zephyr]

thank you

[severe elbow]

So I decided I'm going to get a CS degree but I'm just wondering if it's even necessary to learn math in class because we have AI that can just do it better and faster? Why would I even need to learn it?

Okay but that's currently, won't it get better in time?

Well yeah I mean that's my concern really

Sort of demotivating when I'm going to have to put in tons of work to learn these hard math concepts when maybe AI will just do it

[wispy lichen]

Anyone? Sos lol

Yeee, which position is this for btw?

Oh ok, I’m just trying to study everything so that Ik what to say when they ask technical questions. And that take home part, wdym? They give you a problem and you solve it independently, not in front of them?

True true, I’m honestly just going to apply everywhere lmaoo and see how it goes. Just trying to prepare rn 😭😭

And also I’m trying to build my portfolio too cuz I barely have any projects ;-;

Tyyy

[pine sleet]

maybe, but some of the more subtle skills you learn from doing higher level math is invaluable. society will always have a need for smart people that can reason and think at a high level and learn new things fast

[signal gorge]

I don't think there are even 100 IT related applications near me

That's what I going to ask, are you looking to do remote or move to the country?

How hard is it to travel from the UK?

Like now that the uk is not part of the EU, did it have a big difference to travel to other countries?

[mystic violet]

just do the work, AI is shit and wont get better for a while

[fringe sphinx]

The interesting thing is, like with programming: the hard part isn't what you find hard right now. High school students think calculus is advanced math, whereas it's really just an introductory class

[coral mason]

Let's see, I believe it will automatize a lot of tasks

Some tech companies have too much workers

[open ivy]

Up until around ~2000 or so a lot of computer programming required deep understanding of the core algorithm.

This is in contrast to experimental biotech which was/is mostly observation and accurate protocol following.

DevOps work in 2024 is much more like biology:

• It is working with extremely complex software that no one understands fully.
• It is empirical (what "theoretically" works often does not work due to some config issue).
• It bolts together standard parts (Docker, Instances, (No)SQL, other Cloud services, etc) rather than "roll your own".
• Much of it is done manually with i.e. cloud console or typing into a command line. Even "Infrastructure as code", in most cases, lacks the core features of programming languages.

Because of this, much of programming became unfriendly for those who like to understand problems deeply and design systems from first-principles.

But the future of DevOps will be a strange hybrid

• Like biology, it will become ever more complex and hard to intuit.
• Like computer programming, it will be more and and more automated as infrastructure of code moves toward general-purposes languages (Pulumi, etc) and gets better integrated into the GUI.

This combination of high automation and extreme complexity will be very unique. What skills will it take?

[smoky quest]

the ones making things are often biased towards their own idea 😉

Predicting the future is hard, even when you are contributing to the future

And the creator of X will be super bullish on it, even if X won't be successful. But listening to people involved in X means they will describe the future as being X

[smoky quest]

I don't subscribe to these views, but not the right place to dive deeper into it.
The main points I would like to bring:

• Automation has been existing forever. cfengine, puppet, ansible, salt, etc. are probably older than most folks on this server. That said, it has indeed gone deeper with the cloud (which is pretty old nowadays too)
• Declarative programming is real programming. It's also generally a healthier way to describe an infra. Most tools also have escape hatches so you can blend declarative and imperative. Pulumi is just another wave of tools which will break their teeth on that as general programming languages aren't a great fit for this problem

[open ivy]

"Declarative programming is real programming. It's also generally a healthier way to describe an infra."
I am curious how one would transform a fairly complex Python program into a Terraform script? There is a nice connection between object oriented and functional programming and FP has it's own analogy to "classes" and "methods". I am less familiar with declarative languages such as Terraform. A Python object becomes what terraform? How would I write Tetris in Terraform? Etc. I can't find good tutorials on this.

"Most tools also have escape hatches so you can blend declarative and imperative." Interesting. Terraform with escape hatches sounds very nice. Kind of like this?

data "external" "example" {
  program = ["python", "${path.module}/example-data-source.py"]
  ...

I would like a tutorial on this feature. I am used to using domain-specific languages inside of general purposes ones. Such as regexp inside of Python. This is the other way around.

[fringe sphinx]

Your argument seems to be that: systems are becoming even more complex. I'd argue that there's an ebb and flow: certain advances have made things easier, providing useful abstractions that reduce the apparent complexity.

Whereas 20 years ago, we'd have many silo'd experts, the level of skill and knowledge required to deploy a 'complex' web app is not so daunting

[open ivy]

The cloud seemed to really increase complexity b/c so many ways things fail without an obvious reason. This happens to me all the time.

But this may change, if what you are saying is true, as the leaks in the abstractions are plugged. Then it will be simplier to use each tool.

In biology, the tools (pipettes, centrifuges, gels) generally are simple and easy to use. But the cells are very complex.

In tech, you are envisioning very complex tools but with enough abstractions to make them easy to use. This does seem to more resemble the 2000 era.

I am less optimiztic that the abstractions will become less "leaky". Since it's fighting against ever increasing complexity. But I am not sure.

[fringe sphinx]

The difference is, in the cloud and with modern practices, I can drop a server and migrate a workload to another region fairly easily. Couldn't do that 20 years ago, absent multi data centers

I find modern systems far less complex to operate.

But yes, there's always the expert level wheee the abstractions don't suffice.

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to think about it as different modes of thinking. You do not want to think about it as a strict direct translation between paradigms.
It's also why I recommend people to learn multiple languages that aren't just variations of C/java/python, but have different paradigms so that it gives them tools to approach problems from different angles.

Imperative programming means you focus a lot on the how to do something. As such, you have to describe all the steps, one by one, and account for the various situations at each single steps.
Declarative programming means you focus a lot on the what you want. And up to the computer to figure out how to make it happen. That means the complexity can arise from very simple and independent statements.

So concretely, that means you can state that you want your bucket foo with the policy bar. And the system will figure out what needs to happen to make it true. If the policy exist and correct, then it will just point your bucket to it. If it doesn't exist, then it will make it. That means you can describe them separately and do not have to care about the order for instance. Whereas in an imperative language, you would have to account for these yourself (unless of course, you rebuild some of these abstractions).

So going back to my tools analogy, you don't judge a hammer based on the criteria used to judge a screwdriver 🙂

oh I forgot to mention some cool properties of declarative programming, which are often logic programming related, is that you have capabilities like forward and backward reasoning.
So you could even query your infra in a very powerful ways (ex: what are the buckets which use policies which satisfy properties X and Y or Z?)

[open ivy]

From what you are saying, it seems that Terraform has extremely powerful functions to impose a particular state. Such as "ensure public S3 bucket is connected to instance connected to ...".

I could also envision these functions as a Python library with similar functionality:
create_once(name, *args, **kwargs) # Does nothing if already created.
connect(x, y, config=...) # Ensures components are connected.
set_permissions(resource, iam=...).
update_configurations(resource, args==...).
query_resources(*args) # Returns a list of resources that satisfy this.

Where these are all idempotent functions, so that calling them again does not do anything. This would provide a declarative-like functionality in that you do not need to worry about order of operations nearly as much.

1. Does such a Python library exist. Maybe https://github.com/NerdWalletOSS/terraformpy
2. How does it compare to vanilla Terraform?

[smoky quest]

oh also another nice property is idempotence

[smoky quest]

We are talking about general programming languages which by definition can re-implement anything.
So you could implement prolog in C 🙂

With regards to your example, you are still thinking about the order of operation and having to pass along data and making sure it's correct and making sure each operation is idempotent, etc.
It's way more cognitive load than saying:

bucket {
  name: foo
  policy: bar
}

policy {
  name: bar
  ...
}

the system takes care of everything for you, including failures, dependencies, etc.

Like the amount of possible combinations in a real infra is quite huge. So having a library to account for all these variations, failures, combinations, difference of state is just adding unnecessary complexity to your system.

[open ivy]

This feels more like configuration as data. So I can write (or generate with python) the JSON configurations and let Terraform impose this state? This feels more comfortable to me than working in terraform directly.

"So having a library to account for all these variations, failures, combinations, difference of state is just adding unnecessary complexity to your system." Agreed. Let Terraform account for this so that I don't have to. I still like my Python however.

[smoky quest]

The point is it enables a higher level of reasoning by the computer. And that's a better tool for describing an infrastructure than purely an imperative one.
Python has certainly its place, but we don't have to force it everywhere. To go back to your tetris example, I could see a world where python is used by program itself, but the AI could leverage a logic/declarative approach

That's actually a standard pattern: have your main program use standard languages (java, python, C++, etc.) and rely on a dedicated logic programming "engine" for the parts that are best suited for it

In python, there is CLIPS, in java there is drools, that are both libraries which can be useful for that purpose

(it doesn't mean you could not write all of this entirely in a logic/declarative language, it's just that C/python/java are far better tooling, ecosystem and libraries and help)

[open ivy]

"That's actually a standard pattern"
Agreed. I like to use libraries form within Python. For example, Numpy is using super fast C++ under the hood. But I don't have to directly worry about compiler, memory management, or any other C++ complexities. I still have all the benefits of Python.

Writing terraform, as-is, involves abandoning the nice features and ecosystem of Python as well as learning a new language. But using it as a library where I set up the state and pass it to Terraform makes it more like Numpy to me.

CLIPS is interesting as a general-purpose soft-logic engine.

I still am not sure what Python library is best for taking JSON configurations (such as your bucket+policy example) and making the needed changes to the cloud?

"https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/cdktf"

"This gives you access to the entire Terraform ecosystem without learning HashiCorp Configuration Language (HCL)"

[smoky quest]

I would suggest to give a try to terraform. It's pretty standard and widely used. So it's always useful as some companies standardize on it.

I would also suggest to learn different languages from different paradigms. You don't want to be a one trick pony.
I like to recommend prolog (logic, declarative), ocaml (functional) and erlang (actor model is not a true paradigm, but useful nonetheless)

In terms of parsing, it could be super simple or super fancy. That means going from just using the json module, to having schemas or even having your own parser to parse your own DSL/language.
Plus it's not just about having a binary answer in terms of valid input, but also being able to understand and describe the error to your users

[open ivy]

I have a fair amount of Clojure (functional) experience and indeed some of these concepts I have "translated" to Python. I even played with Ocaml. Prolog and erlang are interesting, as is Haskell, at least for learning purposes.

I just hesitate to "live inside a DSL". Everything from assembly code to Haskell can be used to "write a tetris game". They all have a dizzying array of different approaches to this, but they all can do it reasonably (assembly makes it hard, but it makes everything hard except low-level stuff lol). But it seems that Terraform can't (reasonably) be used to i.e. implement a custom ant-colony optimization of network topology. So instead of having it's own unique solution and best-practices to solve this problem it simply doesn't solve the problem because it is a domain specific language.

I really want the best of both the declarative and imperative worlds. Terraform seems to have two parts:

1. The core engine, which is extremely powerful at enforcing state and idempotency.
2. The DSL itself.

I would love to have (1) alone and pass JSON (generated by Python) into it. That would give me the best of both worlds. But it seems that cdktf is unstable, which is odd since how hard should it be to have one without the other?

I believe that DSLs are best when embedded into a general purpose language. Regexp is the most powerful and successful DSL known to man. Given this, maybe it is best for me to use Python to generate Terraform scripts (i.e. convert JSON to terraform)? Terraform seems quite similar to JSON in that both define a data structure. That would require learning terraform but not require living inside it. I feel this is easier than using "escape hatches" and also allows me to integrate it into Python workflows.

[open ivy]

For some people, particularly early in the career, this strategy may not work well. For others it works very well. It's a night and day difference!

If you don't get very far with 100 apps than other strategies such as networking (which is a fancy works for just making friends in your field) may be better.

[smoky quest]

Nice!

We need to decouple the discussions about the best ways to write such tools from how to use such tools.
If I am hiring a sre/devops/sysadmin, I am hiring them manage the infrastructure (among other things). not to reinvent the wheel. And terraform is going to be a far superior solution to whatever would be cooked with python.

[near ocean]

The answer is in the description of this channel

[mystic violet]

and u are?

[smoky quest]

What do you mean?

[mystic violet]

Like what credentials does this person hold?

Do they study AI at university?
Are they a professional in the industry?
Any family or friends with experience in AI?

Aka why should I believe what Alex.2 on Discord says?

[smoky quest]

Why does it matter? Arguments are far more interesting

[mystic violet]

... what

[smoky quest]

Why does it matter? Arguments are far more interesting
[

[mystic violet]

ur not serious right

[smoky quest]

who are you to judge that?

[mystic violet]

Well, I thought you be the one to judge that

Since 'Helper' is your credential

[smoky quest]

helper just means someone who is willing to help, not that they are knowledgeable

Don't agree or disagree based on who said what, but on their strength of their argument.
If an argument is shitty, it is a shitty an argument, even if the pope said it

[mystic violet]

Hold on, just to clarify, what do you mean by this question

[smoky quest]

I was jesting, reversing your argument

[mystic violet]

Oh my fucking god, i give up

[smoky quest]

Fabricated drama is also not conducive to great discussions

[mystic violet]

No matter how hard i try to have the right and moral opinion, someone always one ups me

[smoky quest]

let the best argument win

[smoky quest]

<@&831776746206265384> insults that got deleted

[mystic violet]

sorry

[smoky quest]

that ends our conversation. Good luck!

[mystic violet]

bro i just apologised

ok, ill just report u for trolling then.

[summer roost]

!tempban 1143426935884611624 3d That's a totally inappropriate way to talk to members of our server. Clearly you need to review our https://www.pythondiscord.com/pages/code-of-conduct/ before coming back here.

[inner wren]

:ok_hand: applied ban to @mystic violet until <t:1715734304:f> (3 days).

[whole gust]

That doesn't make sense.

[summer roost]

it's been handled.

[whole gust]

May God bless them.

[silver jacinth]

can someone give me an unpaid internship so I can get out of the hellhole I am currently in for my program. It is just for 4 weeks

[mint oracle]

okay! Best of luck for ur interview

[sullen forge]

I am learning * 100 Days of Code: The Complete Python Pro Bootcamp* fromdr angela yu , can anyone tell me what i learn after completed this course

[smoky quest]

It depends on your goal.
In terms of career, a CS degree will be the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation

[ripe stump]

I have been developing backends for almost 2 years now. And I have always used python. I have no other programming language to show in my resume right now. Is it a bad thing ? should I learn other languages too ? like rust or golang.

[umbral frigate]

It depends. Do you think people would want someone who has a lot of knowledge in one language, or someone who has minimal knowledge in a lot of languages? Maybe learning some extra languages can be beneficial, but it isn't necessary.

[craggy crag]

o

[ripe stump]

yeah, i think i will learn another one , for fun i guess. sometimes i get bored doing python only.

[wheat hatch]

Learning other languages is always a good thing because it broadens your options for new jobs and gives insight into how different languages work. Not everyone use python and they definitely don't use python for everything. Knowing a few other languages gives you options.

[smoky quest]

What matters is what you do with it, not the language itself.

That said, for your education, it would be good to know more than one language

[kindred oyster]

Also if you have been doing a job with backend dev, you dont need to woorry that much about knowing other lang professionally.
but its fun to learn new stuff regardless. Its hard to see someone that knows only 1 language.

[ripe stump]

its not like i know only one language.
Its just, I dont feel confident putting other languages in my resume , as i only use python in works. ( I knew bit of c , js, java) never used it any real work. I used those for class projects only

[coral mason]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[cosmic lodge]

will a master's degree in software engineering boost your chances at all?

Like i'd imagine someone who's taken 2 years of software engineering courses would be preferable over the theoretical cs student who's only studied the foundations and doesn't know a thing about agile or design patterns etc

[smoky quest]

It does as it opens up more doors and upskill you. But that's more applicable for jobs that do require these higher skills.
Don't try to get a master to compete for jobs that a bootcamp can do

[cosmic lodge]

but it'll boost my chances right? Like no reason not to pursue a master's while i spend a year looking for my first job right?

[smoky quest]

yeah

[cosmic lodge]

gives me something to do and a way to be productive plus it's online and self paced

[umbral frigate]

You'd wanna first skill up. That means learning everything you can about Python (and other languages if you want). Then finding a freelancing site so that you can actually get started. Unfortunately, the competition is packed, and you'll probably have a hard time getting started. Nonetheless, try your best with advertising, and try multiple freelancing sites as well. Make sure you've got reasonable prices, yada yada. Just have common sense, and I'm sure you'll pull through.

[steel skiff]

Thanks a lot @umbral frigate !

[umbral frigate]

If it's a section on its own, I don't see why you have to boldface them.

Sorry, misread. You could boldface them if you wanted to make sure that they were looked over, but I'm sure the entire resume will be read.

[true harness]

I have seen resumes with some bolding, but I don't know how effective it is. I would say to not overdo it, e.g., maybe only 2 or 3 per experience or project, but this has no supporting evidence, just my experience from looking at resumes with too much

[true harness]

I actually wouldn't be so sure. if you only have 45 seconds or so to read a full page and there are dense text blocks, some parts are just going to be skipped

[umbral frigate]

True. I don't really know how resumes work, maybe they're skimmed over, maybe they're studied at a very in-depth level. Either way, it's their resume so they can choose. It really doesn't matter, but overusing it will definitely lighten the effect.

Well then I guess you don't have to. But it does depend on the practices of the interviewer. Maybe boldface the really important bits to emphasise them.

[wheat hatch]

I only have section titles bold. If there is need to bold some parts of the resume to make it stand out, the resume contains too much text imo.

[wheat hatch]

For resumes I have always gone 'less is more', and it's landed me jobs. Which, when you think about it, is what resume quality is measured in.

Have you landed a job yet?

I see, I'm measuring job offer to application ratio because at the end of the day landing a job is what pays the bills, not going on interviews.

Not really the case in my experience. The result of an interview is a combination of your resume and your handling of the interview. A bad resume will put you at a disadvantegous position from the start which can be difficult to recover from.

Think about it like this: if you can't explain previous job experiences in a sentence in a resume, where you can take all the time in the world to think, how do you expect to be able to answer a snap shot question during an interview?

But hey man, you do you. I hope you find something soon.

[scarlet laurel]

https://x.com/hyperbolu/status/1789017741233389798?t=l1f05WCZj4xskZ8OL_yhyw&s=08

🏎️ (@hyperbolu) on X

choose a major you love and you'll never work a day in your life because that field isn't hiring

Twitter · May 10, 2024, 7:40 PM

stats?

maybe true

but postings serve more ulterior purpose than hirings
postings helps boost the companu numbers for funding

i think a lot of companies put up fake hiring to show that they are flourishing and investors invest.
Anyways the post was a joke that resonated with people for some reason

[gritty rivet]

Heheh, that's why I'm a developer with advanced degrees in sociology

[fringe sphinx]

That's a very odd take. Job postings have long been shown to correlate with the economic conditions and unemployment, etc. Job postings is not a common investment metric.

[trim crypt]

@desert thicket can you repeat your question?

[desert thicket]

I was saying I wanted to do job by only html,css and python

[trim crypt]

You have to look at your job listings, job boards and ask your local network if they have any job openings that only require that skillset.

[desert thicket]

I am from Pakistan and there are not much opportunities for developers

[trim crypt]

TBH, that's not enough. Maybe add a database skill and you'll probably have more options.

[desert thicket]

What do you think I wanted to learn?

[trim crypt]

idk. what do you aspire to be? Game Dev? Full Stack? CyberSecurity? AI/ML Data Science work?

[desert thicket]

I like to be a website developer

[desert thicket]

Btw how much you earn as a developer per Month?@trim crypt

[trim crypt]

Here's a roadmap to being a Full Stack Dev. https://roadmap.sh/full-stack

[trim crypt]

Can't say. But estimate it to be more than SGD3k

[scarlet laurel]

ill send you in private since its a wall of text

[desert thicket]

Oh around 2200 dollars

[trim crypt]

There's no rule for having a wall of text in this channel.

[scarlet laurel]

it disturbs others having a convo

[trim crypt]

With the slow mode, its fine I think

[desert thicket]

@trim crypt means a good developer monthly income is enough 😂 in Pakistan

I want to start it not from good income but from a little amount

Bro what is this, it is look like spam

[scarlet laurel]

.

[trim crypt]

what do you think?

[desert thicket]

Bro but at least use your mind

[scarlet laurel]

i think its true as there are a lot of zombie companies in US

[desert thicket]

What do you think it's right? @scarlet laurel

[trim crypt]

does it matter tho?

[scarlet laurel]

and there is no doubt that corporations try to find loopholes to increase their profits

[scarlet laurel]

this @desert thicket

[scarlet laurel]

it is as serious as propping up bubbles in economy "In my opinion tbf"

but i'm no economist just a consumer in the market so take my opinions with a grain of salt

i should delete the stuff now its very SPAMMY as heat said

[fringe sphinx]

In vc circles, zombie companies refer to those that make enough money to keep operating but not enough to grow.

It's actually a thing that happens. VCs are looking for hyper growth, but companies can fall into a living dead state

[scarlet laurel]

yeah and high hiring signals growth to investors hence

yea but that requires paying the employees which reduces profit

[severe elbow]

I'm going to get my CS degree but I'm a bit concerned that while I'm going to be taking all these hard math classes (I love math), eventually, would AI just do all the math making my knowledge of math unimportant/not very valuable?

Please be real with me. I don't understand AI well at all.

[scarlet laurel]

i think you should be able to understand mathematic functions how matrices interact some differentiation and a little statistics unless you're researching on newer models and just recreating existing technologies

[fringe sphinx]

That's the part I disagree with: job postings is not, in my experience, an investment signal.

[scarlet laurel]

1. companies willing to skim and find workaround to laws to maximize profits
2. companies being honest and help market instead

Occam's razor of capitalism goes for the first

[scarlet laurel]

i already sent you the text of how investors look at it as a valid metric
also the reason there are so many zombie companies; Since they cant translate the numbers in real life

[fringe sphinx]

I think we're far astray at this point: from a career perspective, jobs exist and people are hiring... the macro factors continue to change and evolve. We all agree that -this- moment isn't as good as 3 years ago, but probably agree that it's better than last year.

The only debate here, I think, is academic; to what degree are people hiring. Anecdotally, I rarely talk to degreed SWEs who can't find work: they exist, but it's not dire, imo.

[scarlet laurel]

its not just signaling, they use the hirings for future (your application may be held till dec this year and the company might pull up the application you put up in april). We still have layoffs

the market is pretty fucked rn i agree it got better than last year but that is just another outcome of US propping up economy.

I honestly in my opinion(subjective) do not think the job market is stable and will get worse.

[fringe sphinx]

(Its academic because: the only real test is to try to get a job)

[fringe sphinx]

I am biased by my experience; the job market follows the economic cycles, and the economic cycle is on the upswing right now.

(I too could be wrong)

[scarlet laurel]

yea might be unrealted & politics but US has elections this year and the current govt is also boosting the job statistics by creating more government jobs instead of more jobs

[scarlet laurel]

noone can be for sure

also i am also not an economist and get my information from a streamer

[fringe sphinx]

But let's move the unrelated part to OT 🙂

[scarlet laurel]

idk man honestly all im saying is speculation and this whole conversation stemmed from a joke

not all market is bad but overall market is bad (i'm not saying better or worse)

[strange pumice]

https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1cpjqdd/class_of_2024_is_extremely_unlucky/

This was my reality

@fringe sphinx finished 3 interviews. hoping for the best, one of them is a big company

[fringe sphinx]

What was toughest question for you?

[scarlet laurel]

goodluck brother

[strange pumice]

one of the behavioural questions. I think it's the question that goes like this

"Tell Me About a Time You Had a Conflict at Work" i had to think on the fly, did not expect that question

i think to be fair i focused too much on the technical aspect, that i forgot the behavioral aspect. One huge lesson i've learned from this.

Never got that High School Prom 😦

[strange pumice]

Thank you 🙏🏾

hopefully i can be a swe.

that's what i'm doing i keep applying.

[fringe sphinx]

Hah, that's kinda a classic, tbh... it's tough to handle that in the fly, I know I'd struggle coming up with an answer unprepared

[strange pumice]

US

Did my college overseas tho

[strange pumice]

Yeah I found a GitHub that has the hub to all the Common questions in the interview from LinkedIn Premium

[vapid jay]

...- .- -.- - .. -. .. --.. .. / .- .-.. -.. --
yakında bu kodu heryerde göreceksiniz

[strange pumice]

Mixed tbh.

For entry level it's daunting. I regret not doing this couple months prior to my graduation

[gritty rivet]

English please

[strange pumice]

All the best bro

[gritty rivet]

Yup, it does take practice to answer that stuff well

[scarlet laurel]

https://twitter.com/radshaan/status/1789707730044801081?t=DRWdUx-dXBDZJObQfVDFpg&s=19

Ishan (@radshaan) on X

From r/csMajors

Twitter · May 12, 2024, 5:22 PM

[astral holly]

@vapid jay where

[scarlet laurel]

Would be funny if real

Google is looking like a sinking ship anyways king

It's not your fault

Imagine having your researchers come up with the biggest technology of the decade and just not implementing it

I mean they missed out on it there's no coping to it

gpt is still killing search and meta has also caught up

Sure but look at open ai and how well it has done

Along with Microsoft.

It'd be stupid to think Google wouldn't have wanted that for its stock

I'm talking about profits and money raised^

Yeah but transformers ate a some of that market. People started realising how shit search has become now + New transformer based search options (perplexity)

But you do see how in pursuit of monetising how bad the made search

It's literally ads or shit that has least relevance to search

[open ivy]

Large online job boards make it easier to send out resumes. But on the other hand, more resumes need to be submitted in order to get a job (because it is easier). So which effect wins?

For the "average" person, it approximately cancels out. No easier or harder than cellulose and snail mail. Less work per app, but more apps.

But the online boards amplify the difference between the "haves" and "have-nots". This is due to the much larger size of the market. A few rise to the top of the algorithm and are flooded with interviews, while others struggle.

A similar effect happened with social media once it got big with a small amount of content going viral. In technical terms, the Gini index of the distribution of attention-seconds is higher at larger n-values.

The practical consideration is to try out the "resume grind" as a test to see how strong your app is. Go for 100 or so. For some people this may lead to over a dozen interviews. If so, great!

But if not (such as my case with 800+ apps with only a single minimum-wage offer), then dial it way back. Instead focus this energy on keeping a healthy set of tech-geek programmer friends (among other friends of course) both online and in-person. Doing so has significant mental health benefits. In addition, this network of friends can help in times of need. And if one of your needs is getting a job...

Advice on how to improve resumes is very hard to pin down.

• Some people like a bit of color, some want pure BW.
• Some like standing out, others are conformist.
• Some say social skills are more important than tech skills in all fields, some say only in sales.

No one really knows. But I do know that my resume is very weak. That part is obvious. With no obvious way to improve it, I really feel a need to change my strategy next time I need to look for a job.

It makes me wonder why so many people double down on the resumes and scale up to thousands? It's only benefit is to get a job. Making friends (even online) has significant mental health benefits, it also provides a safety net in times of need, and it is far more enjoyable. Not to mention social skills are good to keep sharp. All this in addition to being a strategy that is responsible for filling most new hires.

With all this social media and connectivity, ironically so many people are both:

• Very lonely and isolated.
• Hesitant to make new friends.

I see this in myself a little and am fighting HARD against it. I don't need to have fake social relationships with social media celebs. I would much rather be the first player of some obscure creators new video game because that gives me a chance of actually having a back and forth discussion with the author.

This seems good. The real test will be how many interviews you get.

[errant sage]

Hi I’m a computer engineering major, next semester I gotta take c++ but I enjoy programming in python. Is it a waste of time to continue python programming instead of c++ for a career ?

[gritty rivet]

You're on a Python server, what do you expect us to say?

Bias aside the data doesn't lie: https://thenextweb.com/news/7-most-in-demand-programming-languages-2024

[buoyant seal]

In my small opinion c++ is not the best language to build career upon.

Better investing into Java, C#, Golang, Python or Typescript.
But definitely not C++.

Languages I mentioned are way more having modern support, and multipurpose in general.

[buoyant seal]

That depends on wished job role though. In some stuff C++ (desktop heavy stuff like browsers and game dev, and embedded stuff) will be better than them all.
In some job role only Typescript will roll (Web front and everything else), and for other stuff Java can fit... (Android, desktop backend)
.. Depends on wished area of development

[errant sage]

Okay Thanks a lot

I’ll just invest more time in python, the thing is I like hardware development but I don’t want to be stuck without a job. So I guess I’ll hone my python skills mostly and eventually get to c++ and c

[buoyant seal]

Or could learn choice like Java in between ^_^
Super popular language for Backend, Android and desktop development.
You can even do Minecraft modding with it.

This language is having more intricate learning curve but can be more rewarding

[errant sage]

I thought about it but my college is gonna have me working with c++ for the rest of my years lol so I’m just not tryna get left behind

[shrewd vessel]

Going the electrical engineering route will give you tons of work with C C++! I'm a mechatronic major and you def need low level languages for robotics

[buoyant seal]

Our university did not restrict us in languages we can submit our work at least from second/third year.
I switched as soon as I can from C++ to C# and really enjoyed it.
C# is very intuitively easy to learn and to use (in comparison to C/C++)

[errant sage]

That’s a good point, I can keep working on my python now since I’ll have plenty of c++ work to do later on

Thanks for y’all help

[shrewd vessel]

Totally, thats what I'm doing! I get all the C and C++ experience at school, and since the job market has hella Python jobs you just learn that to a professional level and bam, best of both worlds

I totally recommend data analysis and visualization. It is a very profiable python niche.

And if youre feeling ESPECIALLY crazy. Learn assembly for robotics 🤭 it takes of the training wheels completely and then you can really appreciate all the work C and a great compiler can do

[errant sage]

I think I will do that since I don’t like web dev.. maybe data analysis will be good

[buoyant seal]

undubitably. Even in my origin country plenty of C++ jobs still present, on par with other modern languages.

[shrewd vessel]

Web dev 🤮. No hate on those who do it, but I agree, it aint for me! I did that stuff professionally for a while. I dont miss it.

[buoyant seal]

python is common choice for web dev (Backend, Devops engineering, Data engineering, QA included) and data science 😄

[shrewd vessel]

And then guess what... you can use data analysis on your robotic projects. That skillset is just so unstoppable, my dude. I wish you the best and please keep me updated if you go down that route!!!

[errant sage]

I think I will , I’ll do some more research though I’ll lyk

[buoyant seal]

if to quote this person

[shrewd vessel]

Vim users be like

[buoyant seal]

Web dev has its own strong advantages though.
Working with the most dev friendly system Linux 😄 and having access to all modern nice stuff of Containers and its ecosystem around
Since we serve stuff from server side we are having free choice using anything that is easy installable to those servers (of whatever the most latest bleeding edge we wish)
We make updates at our controlled environment that can be a single same OS and nothing else. Thus less surprises in general (and less dealing with users trying to work with some desktop/mobile software)
Our servers can be easily fully monitored in the most invasive way. They are ours to command!
https://media.tenor.com/j39uR9chBdYAAAAM/jaffar-power.gif

[shrewd vessel]

Thats so interesting. I'm glad you found a niche you enjoy!

The everchanging nature of web dev and its frameworks is what puts me off

Yeah, I've noticed that too!

[buoyant seal]

The everchanging nature of web dev and its frameworks is what puts me off
oh yeah... i get what u mean. I am afraid of js/ts ecosystem of ever changing stuff at least for same reason and decided i will not learn js/ts at all
and for this reason after python i learned Golang that has realy strong lasting ecosystem
And after that chose to learn Java as it is even more stable and long time lasting.

Despite how much stable language and stuff i will learn, since i am also infra dev, a lot of rapidly changing stuff will be nevertheless present as infra things and DevOps field at least fastly changing

[shrewd vessel]

@buoyant seal Oh it didnt @ you!

yeaaaahh

[shrewd vessel]

Ohhh, yeah I was speaking from a js perspective. I've never tried python for web dev!

Yeah Ive been hearing about htmx!

I'ma check that out, thanks for the recc!

[buoyant seal]

python has some stability but fastly moving forward as well.
The decision i made though Python is only unstable ever changing language i learnt.
After that i dived into more stables choices of Golang/Java instead of putting more rapidly changing stuff and learning more scripting/interpreted languages onto my plate
So stability is only increasing for me.
I really enjoy Golang from this prespective, it is not impossible writing very neat softwares having almost zero dependencies or very little of them. This language has a lot of stuff in its std lib for web dev, including default web server usable for production
Golang is nice for pet projects for many years of long term maintanance for sure. It is fine having year gaps in development for go projects

[shrewd vessel]

Shoot, I'ma have to check out golang then. Are Golang and Go the same thing?

[buoyant seal]

yeah same. Golang is just more "google friendly" term to search information about it. Go is a bit missleading for google search

[shrewd vessel]

gotcha gotcha

[buoyant seal]

i started my journey from Head first Golang book https://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Go-Jay-McGavren/dp/1491969555
But official golang community always recommend Golang tour as starting point https://go.dev/tour/welcome/1 , interactive official tutorial

[buoyant seal]

https://go.dev/ref/mod#go-mod-vendor go mod vendor command is part official dependency manager ^_^
Makes automatically easy vendoring of all installed dependencies code into current repository
That it is even further simplifying long term maintanance of projects. Authors for some reason deleted projects or migrated somewhere else or even removed specific versions? No a problem. We are ready for very long term

Unit testing framework out of the box (with coverage stuff), std web server, profiler with web gui as one of std tools, easy dependency management, automated opinionated formmater link "black", nice enough lib for serialization deserialization through usage of Structs, even templating libs are part of std too
Little bits make golang dev environment working out of the box without need to add things

[open ivy]

Anyone here balance side projects with a full-time job? I feel I do an OK job, could be better.

[buoyant seal]

i balance just pet projects for game communities and my own stuff ^_^
no obligations to do anything. If i have energy and willing, i work on them. if i wish to relax, i relax

[near ocean]

My github died when i started working

[smoky quest]

same than any other hobby or gym or activity

[open ivy]

The tricky part is that there are still fun things I want to do in Coding but I can get tired of coding a bit. I have some OK workaround.

[smoky quest]

yeah the main thing is to not make it a chore or a burden

Even embracing abandoned projects

[buoyant seal]

first several years my projects were terrible. on third-fourth year they got better.

Even embracing abandoned projects
discord bot i remade three times from zero.
And recently i made at last application i wished doing 3-4 years ago but i did not know necessary technologies to make it an easy way. At last. made it 😄
My graveyard of projects has plenty of old trash sweeped away into it, but ideas persist and i keep working on desired ideas until they eventually take shape i desired all along.

I find pet projects as necessity to learn skills i can't learn during work
Those pet projects help me shaping skills for future career, and just testing stuff i enjoy to work with

then if i get called at work... can u work with thing X, or i can be volountering making it with thing Y that i know is great, i do suggest it or get to work with it. And since i worked with this thing before, people can be willling to accept it as a choice.
Learned stuff creates for me opportunities to use it more later

[open ivy]

I find that work is more about cloud and networking these days. Pet projects are more along the lines of "how can I come up with a clever algorythim to do XYZ"

Quite a different skill.

[smoky quest]

what do you want to optimize for here?
Do you want projects/skills for your career or for fun?

[open ivy]

Side projects are several things:

1. Long-term productivity tools (debugging tools that standard IDEs don't have).
2. Fun stuff (new physics simulation ideas)
3. Resume and jobs.

About equal weights.

[balmy spade]

Have a discussion here. If you're just trying to hire, this isn't the place for it.

[true hatch]

Can I go into CS uni without knowing any programming language?

[balmy spade]

Yes.

[pine sleet]

a sizeable chunk of CS freshmen don't have any prior knowledge

though having some knowledge beforehand would definetely help

[still condor]

@gaunt mason Please read our rules. We don't allow recruitment here.

[true hatch]

Did you know a programming language before college? If so, which language?

[pine sleet]

i knew a handful, python, rust, java, js

[true hatch]

When did u start coding?

[pine sleet]

most of my classmates in my first semester intro to CS class didn't have any previous experience so they struggled a fair bit

[pine sleet]

some 5 or 6 years ago

[true hatch]

holy crap, you are cracked. Any tips you can give me so I can be good at coding just like you?

please mate

[pine sleet]

do a lot of projects

sorry i went to make dinner

[true hatch]

oh no problem

[pine sleet]

but yeah people spend too much time figuring out the best way to learn a language

dont do that

just find a cool project and work on it

[true hatch]

should I go for a masters degree?

[pine sleet]

and also dont think of it like "im learning a language" think of it like "im doing a fun project"

[pine sleet]

that's something you'd be better equipped to decide further in undergrad

[true hatch]

How do I apply for SWE jobs?

[harsh river]

get a degree first.

[pine sleet]

look on linkedin/indeed

didn't you say you were in middle school though

[true hatch]

yes.

[pine sleet]

probably best not to worry about it for now

just do projects and stuff so you'll be cracked when you get to college

[true hatch]

i don't got ideas

[pine sleet]

!kindling

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[pine sleet]

has some good inspiration

otherwise just keep an eye out. project ideas come outta nowhere sometimes

[true hatch]

but idk how to make a project, idk how to code

[pine sleet]

!res

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[shrewd vessel]

I'll check these out! Thank you!

[shrewd vessel]

Hey! Another Drake!

[true hatch]

Yo dude, My name is not drake, I just like the artist

[shrewd vessel]

Oh gotcha 😛

[loud basalt]

So I’m thinking about starting the cybersecurity pathway and I wanna know if learning python first is a prerequisite (I heard coding is like not much applied)

[true hatch]

maybe ill name my first son Drake, i like the name

[shrewd vessel]

Haha, dol it!

[smoky quest]

it certainly won't hurt

[true hatch]

just enrolled into an MIT course

Wish me luck

[pine sleet]

have fun!

[true hatch]

you've done it?

[pine sleet]

no

i dont really like doing courses like that

[true hatch]

books are painful for me (I can read)

[pine sleet]

that's fine, whatever works for you is good

[true hatch]

its gonna be my first course in python

[viscid tusk]

How long would it take to go from 0 programming experience to having a job in programming if I did 2-4hrs of learning a day?

[balmy spade]

There isn't a way to measure that question and give an answer that would mean anything. Most degrees take at least two years, I think.

[wispy cosmos]

Guys, i just enrol to university and i confused what program should i choose

in year 1 there are introduction to ai and fundamentals of web design and development
year 2, concurrent programming, futher web design and development, and mobile app engineering
year 3, distributed computer system/enterprise programming for distributed applications/blockchain development or advcanced database system/optimisation and deep learning

i need some advice to choose 1 of them each year

[pine sleet]

the average bachelor's program is 4 years long, and the average student probably spends more than 4 hours a day doing school related stuff (including lecture time and homework and projects), and it's much harder to get a job without a degree so... probably a lot more than 4 years, unless you get lucky

but yeah like preocts said its hard to give an accurate answer

[wispy cosmos]

i mean like, i dont know which one is useful
so i need some enlightenment

[viscid tusk]

Is there any way I could make a living programming with 6 months —> a year of knowledge?

[pine sleet]

unlikely but possible

if you need to make a living soon i'd suggest not going for programming

[balmy spade]

Are you asking if you could be hired as a developer was 6 months to a year experience and nothing prior? Sure, but I would call that exceptional.

[viscid tusk]

not too much of a rush atm

[pine sleet]

do you have any higher education background? even if it's not CS related, it could be used to pivot into the field

[viscid tusk]

I’m not too experienced with careers and I am 19 and graduated HS 😔

[pine sleet]

are you in the US?

[balmy spade]

They are all useful. Have you spoken with staff at the school to understand your options? Which direction do you want to start exploring career skills?

[viscid tusk]

I’ve worked a customer service job for 6 months then a different job for 2 years

[pine sleet]

you should consider going to college, it can even be free if you play your cards right. its possible but highly unlikely you'll get a job as a self taught in a year

[viscid tusk]

I’m unsure of what I can do in my current situation to make money without working 8+ hours a day 7 days a week and taking up a good portion of my time

[wispy cosmos]

some staff will come to our city in 18may so ill ask them later,
but tbh i learn this degree in purpose to do a business in future/will come in handy if i want start a business

[viscid tusk]

What would be a reasonable amount of money for me to try to make a month while also doing college if I took that route?

[pine sleet]

not a great idea to work and do college at the same time if you can avoid it

[balmy spade]

Do you have an interest in being a developer (web or otherwise)?

[wispy cosmos]

not really, because its not my final purpose

[viscid tusk]

Unsure if I can avoid it when it comes to that. I don’t really have much/any help from parents

[balmy spade]

Then I'd suggest the AI course for year one and talk with the services available at the school to plan the rest as you go. It's more generally applicable to a wider range of topics.

[viscid tusk]

?

[wispy cosmos]

alright

[balmy spade]

Whatever pays the bills.

[wispy cosmos]

i think i dont have to thinking too much about that first

[viscid tusk]

Would a roommate be a good idea? I’ve never really looked into it before. I don’t know if I could pay bills alone

[pine sleet]

look into taking out a loan, and looking for scholarships and grants. like i mentioned it can be free if you play your cards

[pine sleet]

yeah roomates can make rent super cheap

[balmy spade]

You're in the states, so look at FASFA first and community colleges. Depending on your situation that will cover classes and supplies without loans. From there it's on you do determine cost of living and the budget that will fit it.

[viscid tusk]

From what I’ve been told rent with roommate is probably going to be 900~ each. + groceries etc. would I be able to do that working minimum wage without getting overstressed with college?

[balmy spade]

With any customer service experience, don't be afraid to flex that and apply for support desk jobs in tech. It's not programming, but opens you up to that career path from within.

[wispy cosmos]

btw i just wondering that concurrent programing usually used for,
because its first time i heard this thing, i dont know its related to ai or something like that

[pine sleet]

it really depends on a lot of factors, so it's best if you did the budgeting based on those factors yourself. but keep in mind if you're doing a full time course load (which may be required for scholarships) you'll most likely only be able to work part time so you won't make that much

if you're going for merit based scholarships those may also require you to maintain a relatively high GPA so there's that

[viscid tusk]

Part-time how much would I be able to make a month reasonably while also doing college? Also sorry for asking so many questions ;; Thank you both so much for assistance

[pine sleet]

depends on how many hours you work and what the wage is

but afaik 40hrs/week is generally considered full time work

[balmy spade]

In most cases 32 will be the cut-off for "full-time" employees in the states. Anything averaging 32 or more hours and the company is required to offer benefits to you (if they exist).
Retailers, from my experience, will keep the majority of workers under that average.

[true hatch]

is machine laerning robotics?

[smoky quest]

no

robotics imply something physical, while machine learning does not have to be related to something physical

[smoky quest]

better to ask in #python-discussion

[safe wolf]

Alright @smoky quest

[elder radish]

Hi 👋 Was wondering how much python we can use AI to write for us/ like idk how a phone works but how to use it etc. What is the best field to go into in tech/AI/coding rn? Got a masters but got an injury so I need to switch field for work. Would probably work for myself, maybe find a team, try to make a difference in how to help doctors diagnose patients easier with AI assistants etc.

[smoky quest]

doesn't sound related to this channel. Sounds more relevant to #data-science-and-ml

[smoky quest]

Rereading your message, there are like 5 different threads in it.
If there is something specific to career, can you expand on it?

[trim crypt]

If you were to make a choice to choose which company you would like to work at, who would that be?

I'm asking because I am curious on what is everyone's preference. Are you looking at startups that has potential with lots of room to design and grow a small system or are you looking at big corporations with massive established systems that you just have to follow the docs (if any) and fix whatever slack from the rest of the team/predecessors?

[balmy mural]

I look at which company will offer me the most oppertunities to grow my skillset, especially early on in your career

[trim crypt]

Sounds like you're looking into joining startups or small IT companies

[smoky quest]

large companies are great for that purpose too as you can learn what is the right way to do things in a safe environment.
I would not oppose startups from large company along this axis

[trim crypt]

Then what Guitar is saying, a company size doesn't matter as long as Guitar gets that kind of job/career opportunity ?

[smoky quest]

Guitar could get these types of opportunities at companies of all size 🙂

[trim crypt]

Alright fair point.

[plush summit]

Betger to stay at one role way more efficient

[nova folio]

Guys which field should i learn python in to find work online

[plush summit]

That is True bit on a bigger scale it is way more efficiënt to have frontend rxperst backend experts etc and not a fullstack dev for example

I mean growth is relative small companies will go up in % while the bagger companies make a lot more money but grow slower

[balmy mural]

I'm currently at a pretty large consulting company. As long as I feel like I'm learning, I'm happy. If I feel like I'm not learning, I approach my manager and tech lead, raise my concerns and we look at where and how I can shift my focus so that things that need to get done still get done and I also get more chances to keep learning

[trim crypt]

Nice move

[wind swan]

I'm part of the younger generation. I work in a company that, among other things, deals with smart home systems. I do some light programming since it's not very extensive. The company is rather stagnant. The atmosphere is monotonous. Although the numbers are growing, there seems to be no clear plan for progress and expansion. The sector I work in feels the same. I'm young and ambitious, and privately I've started to develop Instagram profiles and do some light digital marketing. Should I stay in such an environment if the salary is not bad, knowing that it might slightly increase in a few months? The job is easy. No one cares if you come in at 8, 9, or 10 as long as you stay for 8 hours and complete your tasks. No one pressures you for anything, nor bothers or stresses you out. You have complete freedom to advance in your field in the sense that you can learn on the job.

Although I'm young, I feel that I can achieve more. I may not find better working conditions, but a more serious job with a more responsible position. It feels like only my personal effort towards progress separates me from wasting time. Your opinion and advice?

[wheat hatch]

I agree with guitar here. I see personal skillset growth as an important factor to be able to stay competitive. When I feel I'm no longer learning, or starting to stagnate, I switch position or apply for another job.

The discussion re small startups vs large corporations is wholly unrelated. You can get skillset growth in small startups, and you can get them in larger corporations as well if you do like guitar described. The benefit of a larger company is that they usually offer you the ability to hop between projects fairly easy. The benefit of a smaller company is that you pretty much are forced to work with multiple things (since the available manpower is lower).

[fringe sphinx]

I could talk endlessly about this... it's such a personal thing: me - I've left big and small tech jobs when I felt I was stagnanting. I've made some high risk decisions and have done well with it. I know others who stick it out, even when they're miserable. I like change, I like learning, I wouldn't stay long in a job with little learning or change/challenges.

[gritty rivet]

To me it sounds like you're ready to move.on to something more challenging.

The good thing is that you don't need to make any real decisions until you have a better offer in hand. Look around, apply and leave when you have an offer for a decisively better opportunity

[rotund orchid]

What is the best way I can maximize my chance of getting faang internship?

[kindred oyster]

we dont know your current situation to give you proper advice

[steep plinth]

▮ I'm asking for a friend since they are currently with me. They are more experienced than me in certain Programming Languages. They wish to become a Software Developer (OR) Software Engineer. They've been told that a great way to get into the IT-Field is to first apply for work in HelpDesk. Obtain experience & learn as much as possible during the experiences. I'm not aware of all the different entry level roles & what other roles they may be able to obtain. They were also told that they need to make a Portfolio as it will increase their chances of being hired. More importantly, is it best to just search for Remote work in other countries that allow international support? I'm searching for answers from this Community on what would be the best gateway & entry point for my friend?

They are currently studying Engineering in University. What would you suggest as a Roadmap to reach their dreams & just become a better Software Engineer / Software Developer?

[kindred oyster]

what field in engineering ? like electronics , computer science , electrical ?

i am assuming they are getting a BE / BTECH / similar level degree after completion of engineering ?

[steep plinth]

That's correct, Saul Goodman

[kindred oyster]

there is one more question above , please answer that as well

[steep plinth]

I apologize. I believe it's in computer science

[kindred oyster]

Then the most straightforward way is to keep up the good grades in UNI , be updated with the tech, make a portfolio website , make some cool projects , try for different internships during college , and at the final year appear for placements and land a SWE job

[steep plinth]

I'll have to double-check with them when they're back from eating lunch. I think it was computer science though.

[steep plinth]

Thank you, Saul Goodman. Would it be worth applying for HelpDesk work?

[kindred oyster]

in my opinion , i dont think so since you will be hired as junior dev as a fresher right after engineering , so i dont really see the point in doing t hat

[balmy spade]

Working in help desk, tech support, or even an office's desktop support (physical installs/repairs) is quite a valuable experience if you don't already have some knowledge of customer support and communication.
Schools often have student filled support roles as well.

[steep plinth]

I appreciate the honesty. Is there an alternative path to take or would it be best to stick to what you mentioned? My friend is here now :)

[steep plinth]

Thank you, Preocts. I believe they have Customer Experience: 4-5 Years worth

[kindred oyster]

I stuck to my approach , landed a good SWE job

[steep plinth]

Wow! What's it like working a good SWE job?

[kindred oyster]

how do they have 4-5 years of experience and still doing their bacholer's ?

[kindred oyster]

pretty decent 👍 (i quit tho , for my masters)

[balmy spade]

The thing to consider with starting at support is that a move into software dev might require a change of company. Lateral movement from tier one upward can be a bit harsh depending on the company. An unfortunate situation but one I've seen.

[steep plinth]

That's because they did Customer Service Experience in Retail work. This was before they started University.

[steep plinth]

I appreciate you sharing this, Preocts. Do you know of any other alternative paths my friend could potentially take?

[balmy spade]

I'm sure there are dozens. I can just relate my own experiences and what I've found valuable.

[steep plinth]

Unfortunately, they have also had to retake some of the modules in University. That's why they are falling behind. I know it sucks but what can you do... sometimes, we don't pass.

[kindred oyster]

ohhhh , in that case , i am not sure about my approach
i assumed they were doing their bachlores right after school

you should consider other people's opinions

[steep plinth]

Saul Goodman. They are studying for a Bachelor :)

[kindred oyster]

but not right after school , they were working previously and now they are studying , right ?

[balmy spade]

I like your approach. Eyes on the prize. The goal is SWE, only make choices that move you closer to being an SWE. If an opportunity for a job happens on that path, just consider if it moves you closer or farther from the goal.

[steep plinth]

They were working while they went to school. They then went into college & now they are in University.

[steep plinth]

Eyes on the prize is the approach I wish to take in the future :D

[balmy spade]

So if an opportunity comes by and it supports remaining in school, paying bills, and gives more experience then that sounds like moving toward the goal. If an opportunity comes up and it means cutting back on school or leaving school that wouldn't feel like I was keeping my goal in sight.

That's the real tricky thing about advice. It's one-size fits sort-of. Everyone has a different story.

[steep plinth]

Thank you, Preocts. Is there anything else that my friend should know?

[balmy spade]

All I have is that they should keep asking questions.

[steep plinth]

That's honestly great advice! Do you know of any resources that helped you?

[knotty oar]

Hey Guys, I need an advice/suggestion. When you join a project, how do you start to understand it. Do you directly jump into reading the code or what is your way of getting started? how do we understand any project in a minimal amount of time to become productive as most companies expect you to be.

[true tinsel]

can someone help me in python help

pls

[hearty island]

wrong place to ask, this is #career-advice. i'd wait in the help room

[hoary cargo]

I can

[true tinsel]

gotten help

[kindred rock]

Meh. Lost my constant client on Upwork. :\
Sadge.

Is there anyone who works on freelance mostly? :D

[buoyant seal]

answered in #tools-and-devops message

[gritty rivet]

There was a time long ago when I did... But poverty got old.

[kindred rock]

:(

[hearty island]

time to work in corporate

[kindred rock]

Job search is going rough.
So have to do freelance.

[hearty island]

have you posted your resume on this server?

[kindred rock]

I can send it in private.

[peak halo]

you can post it here with uniquely identifying information removed (name, phone number)

[kindred rock]

Gonna take a while then. :\

I can't send pdf? Hm...

[hearty island]

send a screenshot

[kindred rock]

I deleted the project section, since the project isn't released yet, and I don't want to show it here. Yet.
Maybe in a few months. :D

Eh... I don't really believe in CVs to be honest.
They always say that it's good or whatever.
I think all of the interviews and the jobs I got were acquired by chance or through freelance.

Do they even read them? :D

[hearty island]

nowadays, your resume gets screened by an applicant tracking software or ATS before they even reach human eyes.

[kindred rock]

Yeah, I know.
Is there some kind of universaly used program for that?

So I can check my pdf on how well it gets scanned.
Or every company writes its own pdf parser?

[scenic forge]

@kindred rock are u python dev?

[kindred rock]

Yes.

I had to do a lot of stuff on the startups, but maybe 70% of what I did was Python backend.

It honestly doesn't sounds like something that will change the situation immediately, but I guess it kinda makes sense? Eh...

That's true. But I also prefer neutral tone.

A lot of CVs sound very epic. Like the dude was carrying a whole company while he worked there for 1 week.

But yeah, I see what you mean. Thanks.

[trail vessel]

SOFTWARE ENGINEERING 🗣️🗣️

is it a good career tho? i mean, software engineering ain't really that bad for a career

[kindred rock]

Depends?
The money might be huge in comparisson to normal jobs.
And you can work worldwide and be mobile.

But the market is overflown and getting into IT without any prior experience is quite hard.
Also unless you learn something that doesn't change and stable...
Your whole career is gonna be constant chase and learning.

[steep plinth]

It's not a bad career choice at all

[trail vessel]

i agree

[steep plinth]

Something that I will always appreciate about any field in Engineering is that you can always adapt & transfer to a different form of Engineering.

[kindred rock]

I now feel like I need to learn Go, Rust and some ML. :\

[steep plinth]

Once you are in the Engineering field, there's nothing stopping you from achieving what you wish to achieve.

[trail vessel]

thanks.

[steep plinth]

Also, I have to seriously remind people of this. Don't focus on the money when you are first starting your journey. You want to gain experience & yes, I know the money won't always be great. It may not always meet your expectations. Stop thinking about money. Focus on the experience because that experience will bring you more money :)

[kindred rock]

I am currently learning Rust.
Quite fun.

Probably the least useful in terms of immediate money profit out of those 3.

But was the most interesting for me.

[whole flare]

That's what I'll be doing this summer. Who goes outside anyway

[kindred rock]

I think every time I decide to check on Rust jobs, it's only Solana.

But of course, there are always jobs, you just need to be lucky and find the right one. :\

I found my second job in anime-related telegram channel. (God, I hate how useless LinkedIn is).

You are right, some of those are indeed bland.

Yeah, it just feels like a waste of time.
And the whole website feels like facebook/instagram but without erotics.

[alpine fossil]

I honestly have never had a single decent job offer from there.

[kindred rock]

How many years of experience, if I can ask?

[alpine fossil]

It's easy to use, but yeah, kind of useless.

[steep plinth]

What do you recommend using as alternatives?

[whole flare]

On the contrary, I've had several job offerings via LinkedIn.

[alpine fossil]

So depends on what role I would take on. I'm a recent undergraduate graduate (that's a mouthful) in AI, with specialization in Quantum Computing.

If I am to do software development, I have 4 years of professional experience, and can do it in Python, Java, C#, or C.

If I am to do AI, I have about 2-3 years of professional experience, and can mostly do finance sector, medical imaging, or NLP (not generative, i.e., LLM).

If I am to do Quantum computing, I have 3 years of professional experience, and am currently doing it at my own startup in partnership with a US-based big league company.

Most of my experience is because they were used intensively in my roles, so I did research, and had to integrate/implement AI within quantum computing.

[wheat hatch]

Networking I'd say are one of the best approaches. Sure sometimes you need to step outside of your network, if you are switching careers entirely or similar. But it's still crazy how a good network helps when job hunting.

[kindred rock]

Bruh, if you can't get a good job offering on LinkedIn, what hope do I have? :D

[steep plinth]

extends hope

[alpine fossil]

Well, people who are experienced in front-end development are apparently having a much easier time finding good jobs.

[whole flare]

I have both, just in case.

[steep plinth]

What are the alternatives that you recommend other than LinkedIn?

[kindred rock]

I know React and redux.
My html and css causes eye bleed.

Am I good? :D

[alpine fossil]

I'm the worst person to ask mate. I am actively looking for a job to support my graduate studies, and still have had no luck, so can't answer.

[alpine fossil]

I wouldn't know, not a front-end developer.

[kindred rock]

Me neither.

[whole flare]

Exactly.

[alpine fossil]

Same. I usually alter the resume depending on the role. It's time-consuming, but goes a long way.

You should if you are applying to a diverse set of roles. Also, let's say you have 10 awesome projects, but can only choose 2 or 3 to show. Tailoring to role helps alot.

Well there's image processing, NLP, finance, AI/ML is significantly use-case specific.

You can tailor there.

I see. Yeah, I'm not giving an advice. To give an advice, one needs to have the proven track to show for it hehe.

[wheat hatch]

This was how I landed my last job. I sent out a total of 5 very tailored applications. Got called on interview for all of them, didn't get one of them, I chose to reject 3 and took the 4th one.

So yeah it worked for me.

And I do believe this is the way instead of mass spam

Why do you ask? I thought you prefered your own way of doing things

Thank you for the clarification or I would have been offended.

[steep plinth]

From my understanding. You are saying that it's much better to tailor your application to the requirements, Etc.

[wheat hatch]

Yes, in my case it was and I'd argue that it is always the case with more qualified jobs.

[steep plinth]

It makes sense. Because what they're looking for is keywords

[true harness]

keywords are meaningless. show, don't tell

[steep plinth]

I'm in full agreement with you on this. It's just that keywords is still something they are focused on too

Let's just agree to disagree void

[full siren]

Hey, I'm following a ML & DL course on Udemy and I take ai and more specifically ML classes at the university (2nd year undergraduate computer science and engineering student). Am I doing right by taking an Udemy course for learning more and create projects on my own in this field during my undergrad studies, if I'll do a masters, where I'll already cover (maybe some of ) these topics? or am i wasting my time?

[true harness]

why would keywords be the focus? anyone can put a keyword on their resume

[wheat hatch]

You're right in that I'm generalizing but without generalization we can't really know much in this world.
It becomes philosophical and imo meaningless.

[steep plinth]

I think taking Udemy courses is definitely worth doing. I just think it's also important to self-learn too

Learn through research & media, Etc.

[full siren]

But I'll be already learning them in masters? (even we learn some dl and ml in undergraduate as well)

[steep plinth]

Maybe not so much the focus. It's just something that they do scan for too

[wheat hatch]

I think you missed the most important word in my message - 'qualified'.

If you are that desperate you don't care if it's qualified for your experience level or not. Hell if I risked not being able to pay my bills I'd also spam out applications for junior positions way below my experience level.

That have not been the case when I hunted for jobs.

Neither do I haha

But you asked and I answered

Also I'm saying there are better ways for certain situations. Somehow you seem to interpret what I say as a sort of silver bullet answer, which it isn't. Are you certain the issue isn't on your end?

After 2022, the international thing is a bit difficult, they were positions in my country but in an international organization so I can spend part of my time abroad if it is required, senior architect roles

I have had a similar result pre 2022 as well, if that's of importance

Though the stats there are slightly worse, 5 applications 2 offers, one I rejected and one I accepted

Yep, the visa thing is definitely an issue. I stay away from those jobs because I know that I'd be at a disadvantage. My current job offers me the option to relocate if I want to though, so that's one way to tackle it had I wanted to work abroad.

Economy was different pre-covid. We had a good active economy, now there's recession so it'd be more difficult now imo.

I see, yeah that makes sense. Have you considered any larger corporations that may have offices abroad that you can relocate to?

The company I work for employs over 100k people and have offices all over the world. If I wanted to move I'd basically just have to take it up with my boss.

Also isn't it the case that you don't need work permits if you work within EU?

Aaaah, now I see.

Nah this was the case when I was in a junior position as well. Bigger corps usually have positions open somewhere.

Now that is interesting. Very curious.

Still, I would approach this with tailored applications, if nothing else it makes it easier for the recruiter to map them to the requirements of the role

And I'd recommend a middle ground as well. Instead of sending 100 generic ones send maybe 20 slightly tailored

It's not uncommon for companies here to close an opening early if someone that fills the role applies

So there's merit to applying early, definitely

I agree. Then when you find what works and what don't, you can home in on a method.

[open ivy]

In terms of getting future coding jobs, I am more worried about the non-technical aspects:

• Office politics.
• Hazards of operating heavy machinery.
• Long periods where I can't exercise.
• Lack of other people with shared interests.
• Applications It feels like if I get x amount bettter, everyone else gets 2x amount better.

These are more likely to get me. Note the actual technical job skills or even the workload.

[open ivy]

It is without WFH. I live in the US and where public transit is amazingly bad. And cars are heavy machinery.

[analog sun]

So that would be a concern regardless of being in coding jobs

[wheat hatch]

I can only really give advice on the last part - the everyone else getting 2x amount better.
The trick is to not compare yourself to others, compare yourself to yourself. We all have different backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses, etc. Other people that might have started earlier than you in their careers will often have a head start, that's just how it is. But you know more now than you did last year. I think it's better to focus on that.

[open ivy]

Yes. A BIG concern in plumbing jobs and related which would otherwise be OK jobs for me if I had the skills (they pay well and don't have the same repetitive motion as much of blue collar work).

There are about 5k industrial fatalities/year vs ~40k traffic fatalities/year. But with WFH you can usually get by without driving by allowing more travel time (and you need lots of exercise with computer work) and adjusting shopping habits, etc. Commutes impose strict rigid rules of when you get places which makes it harder.

[analog sun]

You would still likely drive to get groceries, go to the store, go to the gym, socialize and visit with friends and family though

It sorta sounds like you are afraid of driving in general, vs a general fear of in-person office work (just how it is sounding to me)

In the US, I would say its completely unavoidable outside of like 3 or 4 cities to not end up driving

[open ivy]

Not if you are willing to walk 10-15 miles round trip every week or so (I am somewhat afraid to cycle because of cars). That covers most grocery stores. And using a bus is OK as well in many places if you are willing to wait.

Which is not an unhealthy thing to do if you work full-time on your computer; people carry food and housing on their back for thousands of miles when thru-hiking a trail after all!

5% of rural households are fully careless. Uncommon but not impossible.
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/0dv3b769

[analog sun]

Right, this seems more likely a life style choice than a job thing

[open ivy]

Cars are not just about fear of driving. It is true I daydream and just a few seconds of inattention could turn deadly. For myself and others. But there are many more factors.

• Climate. High dew-points affect two billion + people and this will get much worse.
• Stress. Lots of people drive in traffic jams. Few enjoy it.
• Redlining. Freeways were routed to keep blacks away from whites. Of course "black" is actually over a thousand ethnic groups in Africa. We do NOT need the young continent to repeat our mistake because redlining would return with a vengeance.
• Waste of time. Time driving is not time working, time having fun (for me), or time exercising. Buses and trains allow one driver to carry many passengers.
• Pollution. Cars in very high numbers still affect air quality hit even with emissions controls. This is worse in global south cities.
• Money. It is expensive. Cheap cars will break down more and cost with repairs.
• Space. Cars take up a lot of space. "Parking crater".

The fact that everyone is expected to do this task, which is bad in so many ways, is an example of how much a culture can brainwash itself.

[steep plinth]

What type of roles should a person be searching for if they want to work in the IT Field but they're going through a situation where there aren't many IT-Related jobs available locally? What are known websites & not so known websites for hiring? It's a question I'm sure was already asked but may as well ask it again. My friend felt it was only right to ask another question through me on here since they enjoyed the first answers to their previous question.

How did you get an interview so quickly? :O

Wait, Lisan. What's your advice for people who want to find more opportuntiies in work if there's not enough roles locally?

[fringe sphinx]

QA / Testing and Help Desk / Tech Support are good starting jobs with room to grow / lateral movement.

[wheat hatch]

Congrats! Break a leg!

What company is it?

Gotcha, sounds like a fun job, fingers crossed you get an offer 😄

[balmy mural]

Use linkedin to find job openings, and then visit those companies' websites and apply via their website if you can. As much as linkedin sucks for actually applying, it's great to find openings and set up alerts for new openings

Why do you say not to mention location/visa? I'm hoping to emigrate to EU at some point as well and really hoping the market starts looking better. But I would need a work/migrant's visa and a sponsorship. By not including these, I feel like I'd still get filtered out before a first interview if they don't currently want to sponsor anyone, just not automatically

Or I get to an interview and waste both my and the company's time if they know they're not currently hiring non-locals

As I said, that's just a worst case and I'd assume it's very unlikely to happen, but not impossible for someone to miss. Makes sense to avoid bias.
I actually included my face on resumes I sent out the the Netherlands last time I tried going internationally since I spoke to someone used to do recruitment in the software space and they said it's 50/50 to include your face, and since I'm "An above average white male" it could only boost my chances 😂

If only, I'm from South Africa

[wheat hatch]

Don't you have migration agreements between commonwealth members?

Kinda like EU member state agreements

I'm asking because an acquaintance of mine is also from SA and he moved to Canada

[balmy mural]

Worst case is just that we both waste each other's time since we get to an interview stage and only realize then that they can't hire me at all, so would have been better to just get auto rejected. It's still not a terrible case, but I'd rather not waste my own and other people's time xD

[balmy mural]

Maybe, but I'm specifically looking to move to the Netherlands, so it would not be applicable to me

[wheat hatch]

Why NL, if you don't mind me asking?

[balmy mural]

My partner is Dutch

[wheat hatch]

Ah, I see. Dutch citizenship as well?

[balmy mural]

Yup, they grew up and currently live in the Netherlands

[wheat hatch]

Aight, that sounds tough with the long distance. I hope you get there soon mate.

[balmy mural]

We make it work. I still have high hopes on getting there via my current company. Our second biggest branch is in the Netherlands and the company does transfer people from South Africa to there. Having a chat with my executive again sometime next month to see what the progress is on that. Otherwise I'll throw out a few applications end of the year and see where it goes. If all else fails, a partner visa is still an option, but we want to exhaust other options first

[wheat hatch]

Sounds smart, I think it's always better to have a job prepared before a big move like that.

[open ivy]

If you can get 10+ interviews out of 100 resumes it is definitely worth it to keep going with this strategy.

For me it was around 1 interview per 100, but I couldn't Taylor the resumes. I also don't interview that well. So the strategy didn't work for me and really I have to rely on just focusing on having a healthy circle of friends instead. Who can help in times of need. "need" includes "needing a job" i.e. this is what networking it lol.

Yes its like biology in that it is very much "try and see what works".

[true hatch]

Im stressed AF. In 2,5 weeks my python course will start, idk how to get prepared.

[smoky quest]

learn python

[open ivy]

Try setting up a comfortable Python environment? A nice editor, simple testing scripts, etc.

[true hatch]

Its a beginner course

[smoky quest]

nice! So learn python

[true hatch]

rn?

or in 2.5 weeks?

[true harness]

do you start studying before or during the test :P

[true hatch]

before

[smoky quest]

best time was yesterday. Second best time is today

[true hatch]

Yes boss! right away,

@smoky quest How long per day do i need to learn python?

[fringe sphinx]

Nobody else can tell you how much time to spend. It takes a little bit of effort over a long time to get good at programming: even 30 minutes a day adds up over a year. Grinding is usually failing.

But if you have a class in 2.5 weeks, it's probably enough to just learn how to run a program in a beginner IDE like Mu or Thonny.

[true hatch]

Can I use replit? I am on Chromebook.

[fringe sphinx]

Use whatever your teacher recommends

Replit is fine for starting, sure. But if you want to learn, write code and run it. That's the only way to learn.

[true hatch]

Its because i don't have Windows, Im on a chromebook. In a cuple of months my pops is getting me a windows laptop

so that i can run PyCharm

[fringe sphinx]

You can learn basics on replit for sure.

[true hatch]

alright

[shrewd parrot]

GUYS do we know any job openings for data scientists? a friend is looking for a job he has 2+ years of experience

[peak halo]

You should look on proper job boards. A discord server is never going to be as good as an actual job board for this.

[true hatch]

indeed.com

[agile herald]

is kotlin less painful to learn than java

i know little to nothing abt programming btw

[fringe sphinx]

Why does it matter? If you want to learn it, you'll be fine. Why are you debating it?

[gritty rivet]

You're on a Python server, why not start there?

[true hatch]

What other jobs than SWE can I get with Computer Science degree?

[smoky quest]

any job that is related to a computer of some sort

[true hatch]

But Software Engineer must be the better and higher paying job involved in CS

[smoky quest]

and?

[true hatch]

just a question, am i correct or wrong?

[smoky quest]

yeah, the more educated, the more likely to have a higher paying job

[true hatch]

kk

[fringe sphinx]

There are many jobs, some people end up in sales or consulting or other roles that aren't primarily coding. And they can be paid equal or more than SWEs

[true hatch]

cool 🔥 Accoutants get paid 100k+?

[fringe sphinx]

For sure

[true hatch]

Wait what?

Do SWE's have homework?

[fringe sphinx]

What?

[agile herald]

no, its cuz i want to learn something else in the future

[true hatch]

do they still work after their 8 hours?

like extra work

[fringe sphinx]

Depends on you. To make the big bucks, you need to put in the extra effort.

[true hatch]

Say less, gimme the bling

[fringe sphinx]

It's true in any field. Accountants certainly do.

[fleet reef]

Depends on how you define "work"
Here's my personal profile: https://github.com/shenanigansd
Here's my work profile: https://github.com/bradleyreynolds-idi
You can see I have like %50 more contributions in my personal profile
That's because work is soul sucking and it makes me want to cry
(most jobs are not like that I just have a particularly terrible job*)
While personal is hanging out here and doing fun stuff together

Do I login to work and do work code? Not unless something is broken.
But I do other coding stuff outside of work all the time.

[peak halo]

I think you asked this before?
Depends on what you mean by "homework". Because that term doesn't have an established meaning outside of "academic coursework to be completed outside of meeting times"

If you mean "tasks that can only be completed after an eight-hour work day at the professional's home", no.

But it's normal to need to work more than 40 hours in a week.

[true hatch]

Whats a career that pays a lot of money because you talk a lot of languages

[fringe sphinx]

Translator? Diplomat?

[true hatch]

pay100k?

[buoyant seal]

neurosurgeon 😄 $677301 average salary in US

[true hatch]

holy crap,