career-advice

[vast torrent]

It may happens but with one's who have a fixed mindset, don't want to learn something new and are satisfied with that static knowledge.

I appreciate you showed your concern here, this is a very huge topic to discuss about.

I watched some Youtubers explaining why it will not replace humans and whom it will replace. Actually the AI will not replace the humans but that one who have knowledge about AI and they know how to obtain there work from AI tools and technologies.

So basically the one, who will evolve himself with the AI tools and technologies, will survive in this IT industry.

[vapid jay]

Fair enough it sounds about right

[celest scroll]

Any advice on getting into data science ? Currently doing BEng electrical engineering and then I’ll apply for MSc data science

[raven forum]

Electrical engineering would make your mathematical foundations strong. Make sure you have a strong understanding of calculus, linear algebra, probability, and statistics.

[static goblet]

Hello to everyone, am looking for a job as a software developer am trying hard but not getting any. Any recommendation or any help from you side will be great.
Thanks

[viscid portal]

man...me too!

[raven forum]

Start learning python side by side including basic data analysis libraries.

[smoky quest]

Hi!
Where are you struggling?

[static goblet]

Not getting much opportunities. Every one is looking for 1+ year

am just a fresher

[smoky quest]

You could post your anonymized resume for feedback

[static goblet]

okay but where?

[smoky quest]

here

[static goblet]

ok sure let me do it

[peak halo]

try posting a screenshot with only the resume. all the extra stuff makes the actual content smaller and hard/impossible to read.

[static goblet]

sure

how to share pdf?

[kindred oyster]

try posting a ***screenshot ***with only the resume

[static goblet]

Its my resume review pls

[whole flare]

I typically include the LinkedIn and Github with the phone number and email address

also why is the projects part not sectioned properly like the other sections you have?

[static goblet]

okay by sectioning u mean like above i have done with work ?

[whole flare]

also typically you include either the work experience or education first, any reason for the skills to be there?

[whole flare]

yes

[static goblet]

i saw in one resume i just followed that one

[whole flare]

[static goblet]

@whole flare ok i will do the changes as you mentioned

[whole flare]

May I introduce to you Jake's resume - https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/jakes-resume/syzfjbzwjncs

[quasi orchid]

do you guys think that being a indieame dev will be a viable strategy

[static goblet]

it looks good

[whole flare]

it is a pretty common resume template

[static goblet]

ok let me do this

[whole flare]

Also for your bullet points in your work experience section, it is best to quantify and answer the 'so what?' question, this will look better to recruiters as it shows the impact

[static goblet]

By 'so what' you mean ?

[whole flare]

Essentially, say you did a project as part of your job, the recruiter wants to know what the impact was, what goals did you achieve, how did it help the company? etc.

[static goblet]

oh okay got it, i will add this thing in my resume

[whole flare]

👍

[static goblet]

thanks for your recommendations

[whole flare]

another thing, for your certifications, I wouldn't include the link at all, just the title and issuer along with the date

[static goblet]

Sure i will keep this in my mind

[celest scroll]

Thank you - I’m familiar with python courtesy of uni. We’ve had statistics modules which I’m hoping will help me out. Would you say personal projects have a big impact ?

[hearty island]

good and unique projects. aka not the titanic project that everyone else has done

[celest scroll]

Ah yes I’ve already heard plenty about the infamous titanic project hahaha

[pastel thunder]

man, people need to produce less babies.
so much competition out here in india

[gaunt flare]

Hey guys. I think this is the right channel to ask this in. If someone wants to attempt to make a successful youtube channel centred around Python programming - what are some important notes to follow?

[lament harness]

Hey all! A week ago, I hosted a meetup with Google's Mark Ryan and LlamaIndex's Jerry Liu, which turned out so good that we're now calling it "AI Tsunami Survival Kit for IT Professionals" 🤓 It includes:

1. YouTube Recording: https://youtu.be/P5xd1ZjD-Os?si=iq8xibj5pJsJ62oW
2. Speaker Slides: https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/all-in-ai-llm-landscape-rag-in-2024-with-mark-ryan-google-jerry-liu-llamaindexpdf/266837015 (Note: Due to Zoom-bombing, Jerry's part is read-along)
3. A quick take about the event on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7176665743374135297/

Curious to hear your thoughts on this, cheers!

[buoyant seal]

!rule 6 this is not the best place for this, would u delete it ^_^
U should get permission from @severe widget for such stuff posting

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[white relic]

No.

[quasi orchid]

nahhhh

[near ocean]

Go for it then

[white relic]

Making it as an indie dev is like hitting the lottery

[balmy spade]

I absolutely support being an indie dev. You will need a secure form of income as your main source to start. Indie development starts as a side-project. Then a side-hustle. If it takes off and replaces the main source of income, awesome!

[high swift]

hi! what is the most well accepted programming language to have under your belt if one was to shift careers within core finance industry to a more quantitative role? for ex. my company uses SQL but if i went elsewhere would that still be accepted?

[lapis wind]

Well programming language wise, I'd say any of:

-Javascript

• Python
• Java or C#

For other languages or tools that literally everyone uses which is good to know:

• SQL
• Numpy
• Pandas

When I last worked in the finance area we also used a lot of powershell but that is probably not very common although I do recommend learning powershell if you feel like it, can be an amazing tool.

[hollow garnet]

Yo guys

[lapis wind]

Other useful tools I've seen be used again and again:

• PowerBI
• Tablue (can't spell it)
• Excel wizardry

[hollow garnet]

yo guys im new in coding like coding generaly idk what to start with i only know print("hello world") fr

anddd when i learn to code what can i do like '(like for a job) or what should i code generaly

[high swift]

thanks - from what I see the more trade execution focused roles require C++ whereas more macro analysis requires use of Python Excel VBA etc.

[lapis wind]

Yeah, I think as you tend toward the latency sensitive stuff or performance sensitive stuff you will see CPP and C pop up a lot. Maybe even Fortran depending on things.

[high swift]

exactly what I was thinking, when you get into hft you need the latency for it. I'll check out powershell, too. TY

[lapis wind]

Powershell is one of those things that can be a god send if you are working with other teams who either have restrictions on what software can run, or who aren't familiar with docker or Python etc...

[buoyant seal]

agreeing with literally every dev should know SQL

besides that, Java, C#, Python, Typescript (better version of JS) are all good options for web/backend related stuff today ^_^
And since u named Finance industry... tbh Java is super popular for finances/banks at least from the point of Backend writing 😄 but Java is also not super beginner friendly

other options exist like going with Python for data analytics and etc

So... we could say it depends on your desired job role.

[buoyant seal]

Java for banking/financing backend will be new COBOL in 50 years probably 😅

[high swift]

it feels like every job posting has a different language requirement 🤣 but its nice to know I can start there

execution trader now but if move to ER then would need something to compile data

[limber geode]

Would it be easier to get an entry level job as a data engineer or as a data analyst? I have a bootcamp certificate as a back end engineer. I do not have a computer science degree. I am considering taking the codecademy and google certificate for one of the two career paths. personally I would like to be a data engineer because I believe that could be a stepping stone to being a software developer. but as i understand it the job posts want three years of experience before you can get a job....

[buoyant seal]

in the end it matters what u will be happy to work with ^_^
It will be nice choosing one language out of this list though TypeScript, Python, Java, C#, and Go
We can say they are all used a lot to build anything in multipurpose fashion.
I would have tried withiolding away from choosing C# though unless you are happy to work with Windows / non server stuff. C# is a bit too much windows tied to be a good backend/cloud ecosystem language.
😛 and as u could notice i erased mention of langs like PHP/Ruby... lets say they do not make sense to learn today.

[vapid jay]

Hello

[lavish lagoon]

So is it real that after 5 years there will me no coder

[smoky quest]

no

[lavish lagoon]

Any Reason

[smoky quest]

am still waiting on the self driving cars promised 15 years ago

Am also waiting on the economy fully running on bitcoin as promised a few years ago

[wraith citrus]

Hello all

[silver jacinth]

yes I am going back into retail management since I can't find a cs job after graduating rn

or a janitor since that looks fun and I can listen to music as well as podcasts all day

[silver jacinth]

we have self driving cars, also bitcoin can only process sub 500k transactions a day. It is not a currency, but a commodity

in 5 years most jobs will be automated, however I think it'll be pretty bad for those without 100k in the bank

[white relic]

"I can't find a job right now" != "cs has no future"

[silver jacinth]

do you have a job in the sector?

[white relic]

"In 5 years most jobs will be automated" is the most optimistic take on the future of AI that I've seen yet. And I've seen quite a few

There is nothing to support that

[silver jacinth]

besides goldman sachs, the usa and the eu

[white relic]

Unless Goldman Sachs is going to pull 50+ years of future research out of a top hat tomorrow, I have no idea what you mean by that

[silver jacinth]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2023/03/31/goldman-sachs-predicts-300-million-jobs-will-be-lost-or-degraded-by-artificial-intelligence/?sh=737d05b8782b
http://koreabizwire.com/ai-predicted-to-replace-3-27-million-jobs-in-south-korea-professional-sectors-most-at-risk/275398
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/05/jobs-lost-created-ai-gpt/

Around 40% of all working hours could be impacted by AI large language models (LLMs) such as ChatGPT-4, says a report from Accenture.

[white relic]

I guess we'll find out in 5 years.

[silver jacinth]

you still didn't answer the question, otherwise it is pretty hypocritical. Did you try searching for a job this year in the tech sector?

[true harness]

i did. i got an internship

[fringe sphinx]

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.

[silver jacinth]

was it paid?

[true harness]

of course. about average for the area

[silver jacinth]

I put in 100 applications and got one for fulltime rather than an internship. But then again this is canada

[lavish lagoon]

AI/ML engineering is good for me or not because i am a first year of cs student🥲

[fringe sphinx]

I've heard more complaints here and in other boards are the Canadian tech market; I don't know first hand, but that market hasn't not recovered like the US.

[white relic]

I have been employed at my current job for several years.

[silver jacinth]

meanwhile I put an application for td consultant and I hear back in 1 day

[silver jacinth]

yeah but entering the space with a new degree is basically impossible

I had to resort to an unpaid internship for my program's requirements for this semester due to the CO-OP nature of it

there were about 27 job postings and 5 were paid

cohort of 50 students

[white relic]

The current economic situation that makes CS (especially) entry level jobs so competitive right now is largely a consequence of tech overhiring during COVID and broader economic trends. It hasn't always been like this and it won't stay this way this time either. AI has little to do with it.

[lavish lagoon]

...

[silver jacinth]

companies are making more than ever, IBM is laying people off for automating roles. Microsoft as well

I follow the economic policies and we're getting rate cuts. If companies were hiring new talent they would however they only want senior roles and those with 5+ years of experience

[fringe sphinx]

This has long been a complaint of every tech company. AI may or may not impact CS careers: but any issues you're seeing right now are economic for well known reasons.

[silver jacinth]

nah, did you see markets go berzerk last week?

[fringe sphinx]

US companies are, for sure, hiring and picking up hiring.

I've heard very few degreed US CS majors who can't find work.

[silver jacinth]

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/03/computing-college-cs-majors/677792/

oversaturated so much

[fringe sphinx]

Paywalled? Whats the point?

[silver jacinth]

Last year, 18 percent of Stanford University seniors graduated with a degree in computer science, more than double the proportion of just a decade earlier. Over the same period at MIT, that rate went up from 23 percent to 42 percent.

[fringe sphinx]

And?

[silver jacinth]

oversaturated they have to resort to working in canada

[fringe sphinx]

That's terrible statistics. Did you see the increase in positions in the same time period?

Past year/two years have very clear economic factors at play. Attributing it to oversaturation is cherry picking, imo.

[fringe sphinx]

So in 10 years, positions tripled?

[silver jacinth]

that's currently available jobs in the usa vacancy

[white relic]

It really depends on you. There are a lot of fields within and related to CS that you may enter with a CS degree. AI is big in the news right now and there's money in it; if you find it interesting, it's a sound option (doomsayers notwithstanding).

[silver jacinth]

trend goes down = less hiring in general

[fringe sphinx]

Look at the 10 year trend. Quite good. Your attributing a short term downward trend as a systemic change.

[white relic]

Covid really did throw the tech industry for a loop.
(Along with, well, everything else)

[fringe sphinx]

Look at the various other crashes in that chart. The dot com, the financial crisis? Etc

We've seen many of these tech downturns.

[silver jacinth]

here's a better one: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/hiring-plans-announcements

[fringe sphinx]

Well, I've said my view. You have your view.

[smoky quest]

Where could I put my hands on such things?

and 500k transactions/day is nothing for any economy. That's just a toy

[silver jacinth]

its not a currency

[white relic]

Didn't stop people predicting the end of the economy

[silver jacinth]

its the same thing as buying gold

[smoky quest]

so no more useful than pokemon cards

[silver jacinth]

well yeah, but pokemon cards do appreciate in value

[smoky quest]

and still not remotely matching the predictions of the time about how all the economy would run on bitcoin

[silver jacinth]

it won't

[smoky quest]

yep predictions didn't realize

[silver jacinth]

hear about fednow?

the usd will be regulated to the point where you cannot buy certain goods and everything is monitored. There was talk for UBI during the initial whitepaper by the whitehouse and it was rolled out partially 2022 summer.

[smoky quest]

Sure, and no one argued you cannot buy or sell bitcoin today

[silver jacinth]

well look at xmr, its barred from exchanges and depreciated in value

if you regulate these cryptos they die

[smoky quest]

yep

[silver jacinth]

crypto is fomo yeah, however its as much of a concept as owning gold in your brokerage account

[lavish lagoon]

Can anyone suggest me a DSA YT tutorial or channel

Is this tutorial better??

https://youtu.be/pkYVOmU3MgA?si=eA0W1Au27h9jiXsz

[uncut ledge]

mark I kinda figured out

basiclaly what Joshie said
some cc --> uni lets you transfer hella credits
some cc --> uni doesn't let you transfer any credits
and uni's junior/senior standing is based on the # of credits you have

[pulsar drum]

Yeah that sounds familiar

[mighty belfry]

I have recently completed the front-end path from Scrimba. I am now interested in pursuing full-stack development, and while doing some research, I came across Frontend Masters & educative. However, there are several things I need clarification on regarding where to start with backend development. what should next i learn from where?

I have attached what I have learned during my front-end.

[forest quiver]

Hi, I'm new to this field, and I'm not sure what to do next. I'm feeling disheartened and finding it hard to focus on such things. However, I'm eager to learn Python because I want to do something meaningful. Can anyone here help me with this? Like how to start, what steps to take, or any advice you might have for me? I would be incredibly grateful for your small, kind help that could potentially change my life. Thank you.

[vapid jay]

Can you slide link to that app to me please :> ?

[mighty belfry]

https://scrimba.com/

[twilit cedar]

Same boat, friend! Feeling a bit lost on where to start. Hoping to unravel the mystery with a flowchart - you know, the whole action and outcome deal. Like, understanding what each step actually does! 🤔✨
Oh, and just a heads up, I'm 17 and have dipped my toes into the world of Python and SQL databases, so I'm not totally clueless! 🌟💻
I've got a bit of experience in data handling with Pandas—I'm familiar with the libraries, data structures, and even importing/exporting data between CSV files and data frames. On top of that, I can handle some data visualization tasks. Plus, I'm no stranger to SQL database queries! 📊💡
I'd really appreciate some advice from the experienced folks here. Their insights could be super helpful for me. 🌟]

[buoyant seal]

could u tell us your educational background, in which level of educational facility you are currently in.
and also why you are disheartened

[vapid jay]

Ty

[wind cedar]

for my resume, should i remove the coursework and extracurricular section from my resume?

[true harness]

i wouldn't unconditionally remove them. it's hard to answer without more context

[open cradle]

It depends on the amount of content you have to put in your CV and which topic you want to highlight

[gritty rivet]

At 17, as this is the career channel, our advice will be to get good grades and go to a university .

In the meantime just keep exploring whatever is interesting to you. It's great that you've already learned what you've learned so I'm sure you'll do well!

[young lodge]

Well, I guess you just read my future. 😆

[fringe sphinx]

^ and, as long as you're coding/doing projects you're interested in, you're already winning. It takes a few years to build up the base skills and competency: whether doing games, or data/database, or web development, or ai/ml, or whatever.

[mint oracle]

Hii Billy!
What r u doin? hru

[wind cedar]

I have content to fill the page for my resume. But wdym by which topic?

[open cradle]

Like, when I create my CV I take into account what I want the HR to spot at first sight. Depending if I apply to a research position, full time job in a company... I would want to highlight one section over the other

[wind cedar]

so in my case i am applying for ft job, and i wanna high my work experience and projects the most on my resume. its going to make up 80% of my resume

@open cradle So based on what I said should I remove the coursework and extracurricular section from my resume?

[open cradle]

I would personally not remove anything. But I would highlight more those sections of interests. Placing them above, using bold for some specific keywords...

Some other people will tell you that it is better to remove those to have it concise. This is up to each person!

[true harness]

it still depends. maybe you took a course on something highly relevant to the job, maybe you want to highlight that more than some other stuff

[summer roost]

why do people dislike you at your current company?

[peak halo]

Are you sure that means they dislike you? People won't actively not like you for "not being social" as long as you're pleasant enough to interact with.

but if you find yourself getting into heated conversations with coworkers a lot, you should probably look inwards.

[peak halo]

I read your message before you deleted it, FYI. But you can withdraw from this discussion if you'd prefer.

[vapid jay]

It's mostly due to overthinking due to the unlikely scenario that some coworker may be here and recognize my account

[peak halo]

It's very unlikely that that will happen before this exchange is burried under hundreds of new messages in this channel.

[vapid jay]

...so if you have anything to say, don't worry

[unkempt tangle]

How can I figure what IT "branch" best fits me?

I'm a first year cs student.
I've been also learning programing on my own for about 8mos now. I really enjoy it but I cannot figure out where to go more in depth.
I've learned python for the entire time , started learning go about 1month ago.
I've also played around with git/docker/linux/sql

So far I can say that I hate front-end web dev, and I don't like really like QA/mobile apps/ game dev / hardware in general.
But there are so many things that seem interesting to me: backend/cloud/ai&ml/cyber sec/data science & probably a lot of others that I don't even know about.
Atm i'm trying to figure out if I should go and try to learn some stuff on hack the box or try to get AWS - solution architect cert

[buoyant seal]

Build projects and figure out what u like ^_^
https://youtu.be/c6rP-YP4c5I?si=ywt5721CWER3MyqW

[peak halo]

For your awareness, AI/ML and cybersecurity both require specialization to be competitive for jobs in those fields. So if you end up wanting to go either route, you'll want to make sure that your course selection reflects that.

[whole flare]

HackTheBox is a great resource for cybersec 👍 You can even try TryHackMe it's a similar platform.

[unkempt tangle]

In my country the "academic" path is pretty standard for all students. I cannot really chose subjescts. I would need to learn on my own any extra materials (unless you mean at the master level)

[mystic violet]

Ill ask the very specific question: Is it common to make the average national salary (UK wise for me) as a new freelance web developer with professional quality (think Instagram, Amazon, any decent looking sites) websites within the first month?

[buoyant seal]

i have one acquitance which is starting freelancer too, we are both from third world country.
I get full time average middle dev salary as non freelancer
he is just a starting person and as freelancer earns the same amount per hour, but his amount of work is way more... non consistent. The jobs he is doing though sounds rather variative and often of help desk support stuff 😅

So i would say it is not impossible. Question only which kind of job tasks you are doing (they can be far from being consistent with desired job role), and if u are having your month filled enough with job to get a nice total sum.

Probably that's not very saying though... because third world level salaries are very... jumpy in numbers between grades in magnitudes

[fringe sphinx]

Don't worry about specialization. Be a generalist first, then follow the opportunities that present themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QxI-RP6-HM

[hollow garnet]

best jobs for proggramers?

[kindred oyster]

best jobs for proggramers?

the question is like

whats the best job for sports players?

what do you even say to that 🤷‍♂️

[mystic violet]

thanks

[mystic violet]

dont be so rude, give constructive feedback

[vapid jay]

Smaller the company, the broader things you will do... The bigger, more specialized things

Just don't be the free workforce intern/apprentice who does everything for pennies. You spoil it for everyone & set the bar lower.
Companies look for "passion" driven guys and similar wording to get more out of you

[kindred oyster]

please teach me by settin an example

what do you even say to that 🤷‍♂️

as i already said i am confused as to how even to approach the question

[fringe sphinx]

With respect, that's a very cynical view. My advice, and work ethic, is: whereever you go, do your best. Maintain a good work/life balance, work hard, be a team player, and look for opportunities everywhere you go.

[buoyant seal]

if u a doing literally everything, you do some amount of harm to your own career because of never acquiring in depth knowledge about specific specialization ^_^.
It can be nice exploring just 1-2 speciality in depth, because pay grade is proportional to highest learned branch of your knowledge, not the sum of them

I will extend this thought with example that people getting management job role duties as extra in general have very poor dev skills (they were trying to get pure dev roles)

[mystic violet]

Its not cynical, its the truth

I have done my absolute best to find a job, and all ive gotten is the same scripted and automated rejection email

Corporations only want you to make them money, dont try and twist it any other way

[fringe sphinx]

This is, for sure, the very definition of cynical.

[kindred oyster]

not really a question for this channel
ask in #python-discussion

[buoyant seal]

GitHub / Gitlab

[fringe sphinx]

Ask in #python-discussion , this is careers

You were hired as an apprentice and have the ---some descriptive phrase here--- to pick and choose what you want to learn and how hard you want to work? That's not very apprentice-like to me.

[kindred oyster]

you are supposed to do what the position requires / company requires
not necessarily what you want to do

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, so, don't be surprised when your apprenticeship goes south and you dont get a good referral.

I don't understand interns or apprentices feeling entitled. The very nature of the job is a stepping stone: if you don't want to make the most of it, why take it?

[kindred oyster]

huh ?

[near ocean]

Yes, the average UK salary is around 38k* and making that as a junior/entry level is really good

Gotta be a bit lucky, most entry level salaries i see nowadays are around 30-35k

If youre saying its too little... Thats a different topic

[hearty island]

how do you guys create good portfolio projects? i just tried to do one with a tortilla dataset and the conclusion i derived from my hypothesis was completely useless.

[mystic violet]

Ohh... i think i get it now...

You're simply out of touch of what its like for us

[hearty island]

My hypothesis was that supermarkets offer lower prices for tortillas compared to convenience stores and traditional markets in Mexico. all i did to prove it was a boxplot. but that isn't enough for a project you'd want to showcase to employers

[fringe sphinx]

Please tell me more.

[hearty island]

that ain't true, billybobby gives some of the best advice i've seen on this server

[hearty island]

so yea i have no idea

[mystic violet]

ok thanks

[turbid bobcat]

Personally, I think it's kinda strange that the value of your work is highly dependent on your physical location. A junior in PT might get 15-20keur, a junior in the UK might get 40-45k euro and a junior in NYC might get 115k euro.

Even COL doesn't quite explain it, moving from an eastern Europe country to a northern Europe country almost always makes financial sense, despite COL being larger.

[mystic violet]

thats a negative

[pine sleet]

personal projects usually aren't that impactful (which is whats typically important on a resume for experience) so you'll want to demonstrate problem solving skills and ability to work in large codebases with many people (using stuff like git, for instance)

though if your personal project does end up becoming impactful then that's great too

[hearty island]

i mean. i did solve one problem by imputing the missing data. but all i did was create a simple chart

[fringe sphinx]

Ok, so you think it's appropriate for an apprentice to decide they don't want to learn specific subjects that the employer wants them to learn?

[mystic violet]

i never said that

[fringe sphinx]

Then you surely think an apprentice should not work very hard because they're not being paid enough?

[hearty island]

i just don't think hey, i made a simple box chart does anything

[pine sleet]

it does not

[near ocean]

What does it mean to work hard? That's the point of contention here

[hearty island]

then how do i come up with something that's better? pick a more complicated dataset?

[near ocean]

Definitely not doing overtime if its not paid

[fringe sphinx]

Unfortunately, our friend deleted the message I responded to.

But in it, they specifically called out not wanting to learn specific subjects and wanted to not work very hard? Iirc.

[kindred oyster]

i think hes referring to the attitude new generation hasnowadays people sometimes have which is "you will strictly get what you paid for , nothing more"

wheres an intern should do the extra effort because it will beneifit the intern themself for their future

[fringe sphinx]

I'll go back to my first message here: #career-advice message

[mystic violet]

there we go "attitude new generation has"

[fringe sphinx]

Did you not read the messages we were replying to?

[mystic violet]

I knew this is what it what it was, thinking the younger generations are lazy

[near ocean]

Working your contractually mandated hours is not an attitude the new generation has

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, this is a troll.

[mystic violet]

I dont troll.

[fringe sphinx]

There was a discussion with a specific context, and you're twisting it to be something it wasn't.

[mystic violet]

But one user literally said "the attitude this new generation has", how is that twisting anything?

[fringe sphinx]

Unfortunately, the user deleted the context, so now we have half a conversation.

[kindred oyster]

i have corrected the statement if that makes you feel better

[mystic violet]

Fine

[kindred oyster]

so , back to the original thing....

[near ocean]

I still dont agree with that statement tbf, work the hours youre supposed to and then go home

[mystic violet]

And that is really annoying

[lost cypress]

You actually think projects don’t do much? Like in my case I’m trying to get my first internship as a junior in college, I’ve been making a few solid projects. Can you elaborate on how I can get into working in large code bases with many people? Are you referring to open source?

[mystic violet]

Exactly

[kindred oyster]

thats the bare minimum , everyone does that anyway , if you want to stand out , do something extra

it doesnt have to be in the form of putting in extra hours , but learning stuff the job requires even if you dont like it , tools that could be helpful , etc etc

[near ocean]

Its not the bare minimum, its what you and your employer negotiated

Learning stuff the job requires you to is part of the normal duties of the job btw, youre not special for doing it

[mental monolith]

Hi guys what would you guys say is the best way to learn python? I know this is very very vague but anything will help!

[fringe sphinx]

SWE is a highly paid privileged field. Work hard, do your best work, but maintain a good work/life balance. That's all I'm saying: don't be a clock watcher (but don't be taken advantage of).

[lost cypress]

#python-discussion

[lapis wind]

I would say personal projects that do not have some standout factor to them don't have that much sway.

That being said, personal projects are still useful to demonstrate certain skills you have.

That being said, projects which fall under the "99% of other applicants with projects did this kinda thing" makes my eyes glaze over. Things like website clones, calculator apps etc...

[kindred oyster]

i agree with this thing ^

[mental monolith]

I thought this was general oops

[kindred oyster]

yeah , but the context was that , OP didnt want to do it because they didnt consider it as "learning experience"

[near ocean]

Its literally half of the job of an apprentice to learn things, youre supposed to study part time
It just means they're not doing their regular duties

[kindred oyster]

yeah , this i agree with

[turbid bobcat]

My take is that it depends on the employer, if my employer watches out for me, gives me good conditions and goes above and beyond, I'll do it too.

[hearty island]

this is what i'm saying too. a basic data imputation + a box plot does jackshit in terms of a personal project. so how do i come up with something better?

[kindred oyster]

well , maybe 🤷‍♂️
but that was what i inferred from your statements

[near ocean]

It depends, what does going above and beyond look like for an employer

[fringe sphinx]

I would argue: the primary point of projects is to learn. So you're a more interesting and competent engineer. Putting them on your resume should be a secondary goal.

[pine sleet]

i never said projects don't do much, it's just about the kind of projects and how you can market them

[lapis wind]

Well what do you find interesting, how can you turn that into some sort of project? Can it be something you can write about in something like a blog post? Does it push you to learn different things and go through different trial and errors as you learn to solve the problem.

Otherwise it becomes "What is it I'm interested in that will get the most stars on GitHub"

[lost cypress]

Good point, idk it just feels like to get an internship as a junior majoring in cs requires you to already have an internship basically. Most of the acquaintances I have that have internships for our post-junior year summer have already had an internship somehow like their freshman or sophomore year.

It is just tough and I’m trying to figure out what I can do to set myself up post grad. I’m considering getting into machine learning and AI more but idk I’m just stuck

[pine sleet]

start networking more

[hearty island]

i find soccer interesting

[lapis wind]

Networking is by far the biggest factor

[near ocean]

Youre on the wrong side of the pond

[lost cypress]

And primary should be what then? sorry I may be a bit confused with your statement

[lapis wind]

Out of everything networking is king, and it is what 99% of new applicants lack, they never go to different tech conferences and things.

[hearty island]

what?

[near ocean]

Come to yurop for soccer, do americans even care?

[lost cypress]

A lot of Americans enjoy soccer

[hearty island]

nah they don't lmao. but messi came.

[near ocean]

Theres a lot of opportunities for sportsbetting here

[fringe sphinx]

Primary goal is to challenge yourself: to learn something interesting and difficult. Either go deeper in something you know, or pick something you know nothing about.

[lost cypress]

Ah I see yeah I’m always really eager to learning new things so hopefully that can translate to catching an eye of someone

[fringe sphinx]

But your example was 'VMware' and 'switches' iirc. I would consider that fair territory for any SWE intern.

[kindred oyster]

since the original messages are deleted , we have long lost the original context and now going into something that doesnt reflect what you originally said

lets just drop this

[fringe sphinx]

If you're stuck, pick an open source package you use and try to fix a GitHub issue tagged 'good first issue'

[turbid bobcat]

That's a good question, I don't know, but ig is something you know when you see it and it also might depend on the priorities of each individual. And also, some companies also really do objectively give exceptionally good conditions like really good food and stuff.

Like they give lunch for free from good restaurants. But I think it's an US thing

[near ocean]

Food and other in office perks are not good conditions
Letting me work from my preferred location would be

The whole google campus experience is not a good thing
I dont care about the lobby having a ping pong table

And it kind of is an americanism, i hate how theyre trying to copy it over here

[kindred oyster]

office is not just about the perks though , its about the environment

[fringe sphinx]

I'll tell you: virtualization and networking are great skills for SWEs. Not just saying it. For real.

[lost cypress]

I’m kind of new to the whole open source stuff in general, so does vscode count as an open source package for example?

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah like it depends on each person. But ig what I'm trying to say is more from the other side, if I'm not treated right, like if the environment is toxic or wtv, no way I'm giving overtime

[near ocean]

Theres always bad things about any workplace though, theres no perfect office
So just do what you agreed on, signed on and then go home

[fringe sphinx]

VSCode is indeed open source but that's probably too big a project to contribute to.

[kindred oyster]

checkout google summer of code

you will see lots of open source projects applying there , you can check them out for contributions

[lost cypress]

So what’s an example of a smaller open source project that a college student might use? Sorry for the vagueness of this question I’m just trying to get a better grasp of your recommendation

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm it's perfectly possible to have a good environment, I've seen it several times.

[kindred oyster]

navidrome (just an example)

[lost cypress]

Oooo very interesting I remember reading something about this but I didn’t know if it was recommended generally to do or how beneficial it is

As it’s looking like I will likely not have an internship this summer, I think I will check this out for sure!

I’ll also look into navidrome.

[kindred oyster]

i think it would be benificial if you are fresher (dont know how people will react if you have prior experience)
since you have proposed a project idea for a live open source project, implemented it and finished it in given timeline
also it would be a good learning experience imo

[smoky quest]

These aren't mutually exclusive. They both come up in terms of perks as different people value different things

[lost cypress]

fresher as in havent had professional swe experience right? because in my case I havent had an internship or job in the field yet

[fringe sphinx]

And some of those "cafeterias" are pretty darn nice.

[kindred oyster]

yes , sure

[smoky quest]

indeed. That's by definition.
Projects are a good way to flex and show your potential

Internships are great, but a 2-3 months internship won't change much in the grand scheme of things

[lost cypress]

Also, I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on joining a research group at my university? There is a SWE research group focused on AI and related things and what not, primarily composed of a professor and multiple graduate and phd students.

I have been speaking with them and have been considering being apart of it as I think it could serve as a good learning experience.

Could this help myself stand out when applying to internships or even jobs when i near graduation? I ask this because I don't know many undergraduate students who attempt to join research groups yk?

[fringe sphinx]

I'm going to repeat my earlier point: it's a great idea because it'll make you a more knowledgeable and experienced person. Listing it on your resume is a bonus.

[lost cypress]

Got it, thank you

[fringe sphinx]

Also; it's great because it's networking opportunities.

[hearty island]

how do i make more interesting projects i guess is my question? more unique ones.

no one's gonna think of hiring someone who created a boxplot to compare ... tortilla prices by store

[balmy spade]

You'll be surprised at how effective a project can be. If you absolutely gush over all the little things you learned while doing it, how they apply to what you can do for the company, and how you learn from your mistakes.

[near ocean]

I didnt say theyre mutually exclusive, but theyre not good perks
People generally do not want to commute to some office regardless of the cafeteria attached

[smoky quest]

There is more than one type of person.
There are many people who would consider food a great perk and who enjoy going into the office

[kindred oyster]

well , you cant generalize it like that , some people like going to office as it gives them a specific zone to get into and work

[near ocean]

And there are multitudes more people who want to work from home, thats what "generally" means

[kindred oyster]

ehhh , depends on where you get the stats from tbh

some peole like wfh , some people like office

[near ocean]

I get them from ecb.europa.eu

Yes, i understand that, but much more people like wfh (at least hybrid) than not

[smoky quest]

it doesn't matter for it to be a perk or not

[near ocean]

Its as useless a perk as a pool table in the lobby youre "never meant to use"
Its all fluff

[kindred oyster]

sure, hybrid might be more likable

[vapid jay]

Coffee breaks here are used as an excuse to not work. I don't drink coffee, but I see people getting a coffee like 7 times a day 🤨

[near ocean]

I dont see my employer giving me a good sammich as them going above and beyond so i would not care to go above and beyond for them either

The context for this was how an employer goes "above and beyond" btw, not general perks given

[kindred oyster]

i feel like we have given the context a freestyle 360 no scope headshot at this point

[smoky quest]

This is a bit of a unhealthy mindset in pitting employees versus employers

[near ocean]

Why? If my employer truly went above & beyond i would too

This phrase is terrible to type out, is there an common acronym?

[coral pelican]

Hi everyone, can someone help me in #1221555245654478878 ?

[true lion]

Hey there! I’m currently learning about Java after having done an intermediate python course, but I’m fearing the fact that I’m forgetting more and more about python the more I learn about Java. Is there a way to make sure I can memorize both languages to the fullest in order to use them both to their best extent? (I mainly just make bots or auto-run programs without any external cmdlets or Git)

[smoky quest]

not really. if people have a transactional mindset, they won't change overnight

[smoky quest]

practice makes perfect! So writing code and making projects are a great way to retain that knowledge

[near ocean]

The entire concept of employment is transactional, im not doing this out of the kindness of my heart

[hearty island]

but i learned literally nothing. maybe it's not the right project? or too simple of one?

[balmy spade]

Then you know the first thing to change in answer to your question.

[hearty island]

wdym?

[balmy spade]

Build things that interest you and that you don't know how to build.

[smoky quest]

Right, and there is a huge difference between someone who is uber transactional and someone who also goes in to have fun and grow. The latter will have more freedom, fun and growth

[balmy spade]

Don't keep it isolated to just "new ways to code" either. Solve problems you don't know how to solve. On the job, you'll sling the same conditions, loops, and variables a anywhere else. It's the problems being solved that need that pinch of determination and creativity.

[true lion]

Alright! Also another question but I’m currently trying to get into a university of my choice and have been preparing to do so in two years or so once I graduate. What programming languages other than python or Java do I need to study for? And also is there any websites you can link for me to learn how to use external and internal programs together? 😅

[smoky quest]

the language doesn't matter. Any professional enigneer can pick up a new language in a day.
What matters is what you do with it.

Look at languages like tools. People don't get hired because they know about a blue screwdriver. They get hired because of that they can do with it, be it fixing a bike or building a space rocket.

[true lion]

I see 🤔 currently I’ve only been able to make low data bots that just simply web browse and press buttons, etc. what I wish to do is to make artificial intelligence (note not LLMs, as those are more difficult to create on your own and are sometimes lanky since they only work with inputted data rather than surfing the web, sourcing data, or other useful items) and be able to make programs that work based off of my own code like face configurations or chatbots to start off my programming journey in the intermediate space

[smoky quest]

start simple and stupid. Don't try to build a space rocket to go to the moon when you don't know how to use a screw driver

[true lion]

Ok 👍 thanks for the tips! I’ll come back to ask more questions since I’ve got more to ask but want to experiment on first 😄

[hearty island]

but idk what interests me with EDA

like sure i can build plots. is that an interesting project? absolutely not.

i feel like people do flashy things for their portfolio projects that i can't come up with

[balmy spade]

What caused you do start learning programming?

[hearty island]

i thought it would be fun to create things with it

[balmy spade]

Is it?

[hearty island]

it is, when you have an idea on what you want to create.

[balmy spade]

There is no shortage of ideas to be found. You've got to resist the urge to compare yourself to others while you find those ideas. Sometimes they flow like water. Other times we just sit at the keyboard and, hopefully, write yet-another [whatever] in an attempt to do something. When you go look at other's works it's too easy to assume "Oh, they have all the ideas!" becaues you only see the finished product. You don't see their days of staring blankly at the screen wondering why they can't think of anything.

[near ocean]

Debatable, grinding out work for an unappreciative boss doesnt equal fun or free or growing

[balmy spade]

Hot take I guess: If you can't find fun with your job, find a new job.

[hearty island]

is that at me or

[balmy spade]

Shotgun blast hot take. Anyone can take it or leave it.

[restive dune]

anyone got good tutorials for free

[near ocean]

I'll take it, bossman, get me outta here

[smoky quest]

sounds like a constructed situation. We could construct the complete opposite.
And yeah, life is too short to put up with a job that sucks, especially in a privileged field like ours

[near ocean]

The opposite being? Ungrateful, minimum effort employees who have all the benefits and perks and pay in the world?
Do these people even exist?

[balmy spade]

Absolutely.

[near ocean]

I dont think good workplaces start with effort on the employee's side

[balmy spade]

Hard to agree in full with that. In all my experience it is the employee that defines the workplace.

[smoky quest]

opposite being working in a fun, challenging and rewarding environment where your boss is grateful and coworkers are humans who are great to engage with

[smoky quest]

If you wait for the other side to do the first step, you have already lost

[near ocean]

No offense but that sounds like cope

The two sides dont have equal power here

[smoky quest]

that's you putting these constraints on it.
Ideally, you want to align the rewards so everyone win in it

I also fail to see how describing different situations is coping

[mystic violet]

thats not something u can just do willy nilly

id be lucky and very grateful to even get a job

not sure how im not supposed to have an employee vs employer mindset when i cant even get a minimum wage job

[smoky quest]

that would point to a different problem though, in terms of getting access to the high tech jobs

That's also why a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with hte most opportunities and compensation

[mystic violet]

Society says computer science is oversatured and I was directly told i would end up working as a dishwasher if i took a computer science degree

so which is it?

i hate people who act all idealistic about employment, people's lives depend on it ffs

[smoky quest]

That's where doing your own research comes into play.
If people are so easily stopped, then I wonder if they were that motivated in the first place

[balmy spade]

Nor did I suggest it was.

[mystic violet]

i heavily agree, its something ive done myself personally, people shouldnt listen to 'haters'

[true harness]

as a computer science major, dishwashing isn't that bad. the only bad part is when you need to wash stuff used for spicy things

[peak halo]

Why is that worse

[hearty island]

god knows

[true harness]

when you spray or scrub or whatever, the "spicy particles" get aerosolized. if you breath them in it's 👎

[peak halo]

Oh 😦

[lost cypress]

quick question, if I began to contribute to open source on github for example, and I am applying to internships as well since i am in university, which section on my resume/how could i mention that?

[turbid bobcat]

Projects I suppose, what kind of contributions ? Your own open source projects or like, PR's to existing ones ?

[lost cypress]

like if there is an existing open source already for whatever software, and I contributed to code or documentation

[charred folio]

hello

[true harness]

it is a good question. if you are a frequent contributor to a project, but it's not "your project", where do you put that? it's not really experience, and it's hard to fit in enough context in the project section in my experience

[lost cypress]

exactly lol, and I do also hear that recruiters love to see open source contributions on resumes of students so I'm kind of stuck on where they would want to see that

[turbid bobcat]

With no prior experience I think it's good to put projects first in the resume, especially if you manage to do something with substance or that differentiates

[lost cypress]

my question isnt where to put projects on the resume.

I am mainly asking how do i include the fact that I contribute to existing open source projects onto my resume

[turbid bobcat]

Ig what I'm saying is that if you are displaying them prominently you are giving it enough space to mention the context in a bullet point

[balmy spade]

How is being a frequent contributor to a project not experience? Teamwork, project communication, collaborative design, and so many more little buzz words fit the bill.

Ah, there I go again misreading a single word that changes the context. Maybe I did read it correct.

[lost cypress]

haha which part did you misread

so you feel as though going on github kind of regularly and contributing to open source on your free time could definitely be considered experience and could go into that section then?

[turbid bobcat]

Some places might not view unpaid work as experience. I've certainly seen people argue it (I disagree with the take ofc)

[lost cypress]

yea im just trying to see what would look best in the recruiters' point of views

[balmy spade]

Well. 🤷🏽‍♀️ I'd walk away from that one after telling the recuiter/interviewer to pull their head out of the hole it was stuffed in.

[balmy spade]

I'd use the above mentioned soft-skill mentions. You might not need to say "I worked on [name of project]". Mix it into the bullet points of skills you are selling to the company.

[turbid bobcat]

I've actually not seen a recruiter argue it, it was another engineer

[lost cypress]

what above mentioned soft-skill mentions?

[turbid bobcat]

And not even during a recruitment process

[balmy spade]

Teamwork, project communication, collaborative design, and so many more

[turbid bobcat]

I'd be a bit screwed if unpaid work was not experience cuz I'm mostly doing unpaid work rn >.>

[lost cypress]

so i assume you guys would agree that being apart of a SWE AI Research group at my university for example can be put under experience on a resume even though it is unpaid and not an official job

[turbid bobcat]

I'd say so yeah, if you got stuff done and learned things that are useful I can't see how it's not relevant experience

[whole flare]

I tend to place it in projects

[smoky quest]

the pay vs unpay is not what gives you the experience.
What gives you the experience is to see how teams collaborate, how a company works, what does it mean to take something to production and be accountable for it, etc.

It would be the very first time I hear about someone arguing unpaid internships are not experience

[whole flare]

soon you will be paid just keep cooking 🧑‍🍳

[turbid bobcat]

Someone did tho, so I mentioned it as a possibility, might've been a rare outlier I suppose

[turbid bobcat]

Yeah I gotta start applying. I wanted to finish some stuff on my current project but it's taking longer than expected so I shouldn't delay it much more.

[whole flare]

Probably a good idea

[near ocean]

Why are you doing unpaid work though

Maybe unpaid work should be considered non-exp that way people stop falling for abuse that way
Internships are supposed to pay you
Apprenticeships are supposed to pay you

[static willow]

I'd say so. Just not easy.

[peak halo]

I can't think of an advantage of having done an unpaid internship at 16. It won't make you that much more competitive for a computer science degree program. And you'll have an exceptionally hard time starting a dev career without a degree.

Your time would be better spent focusing on school.

As opposed to what?

[static willow]

Manual laborers would beg to differ after 20 years I'd say

I think that's kind of a common misconception also. CS doesn't have to be desk work. I want to go into the field of robotics/mechatronics/systems engineering for example. Then I get to do a little more hands on work

[true harness]

they have standing desks too. you can afford those on swe pay 😌

[static willow]

I also chose to major in SWE rather than CS (since my uni offers both) to be generally more hirable for the stuff I want to do.

I'm in SWE and I don't just code. I get to suffer through complex circuits classes with my fellow computer engineers

[true harness]

as an old friend would say, a CS degree of the shortest path to a CS career with the most opportunities

[smoky quest]

university is definitely relevant to coding and your career in general. People don't just play games full time in there

education is more valuable than experience

[static willow]

In my personal experience, university definitely has helped me a lot. It's taught me things that I would've never thought to learn. It also has helped guide me towards the career path that I want to pursue. Most of all, it has shown me how little i truly know

[whole flare]

[static willow]

Four years of coding in high school

[smoky quest]

That's the case based on my experience and the one from my network

tbh, I appreciate the open mind, but it's not really up for debate. That's just the way things are

[static willow]

I do somewhere, they're kind of a pain to dig up though. It's been about 3 years since lol. The highest class I took is AP Java

[true harness]

as a current CS student, school has definitely helped me learn things I wouldn't normally have. it's hard to say that my programming skills have gotten better (than they would have without school), but I've definitely improved in other aspects that are important. e.g., soft skills

[smoky quest]

let's talk again in a few years once you get out of school 😉

[static willow]

Just search for AP Java questions if you're that curious... I think it's mostly basic OOP concepts tbh

If you do well enough in hs you might not have to pay lol

[smoky quest]

There are many things you don't know you don't know.
I assure you that your time in university will be well spent and more valuable than experience. But let's try again once you have seen it for yourself

[true harness]

e.g., the networking class i'm currently taking. i probably wouldn't have tried to learn it on my own, but now that i'm taking it, i definitely have a better understanding of code that uses the network

what?

[hearty island]

https://tenor.com/view/bcfd-monkey-confused-gif-5786043144724365138

[static willow]

Well, it certainly whats been ground into the kids at my uni lol. I'm also not talking about the industry at all here, this is all refering to academia

[fringe sphinx]

I'm CS, my whole career has involved a lot of customer interactions and cross-functional (cross team) work. There are many jobs in tech & software.

I have in the past. I do 'data' now.

[true harness]

no one actually codes by hand. even in uni, that's limited to exams. and they're rare even for exams

[hearty island]

my freshman year had all coding by hand for exams

[smoky quest]

you can look at popular OSS projects that are used in production

[static willow]

Every coding exam I've taken in uni is by hand

They even threaten to run your code to make sure it really works, I doubt they actaully do lmao

[true harness]

yes, those are the types of classes that would have more coding by hand. programming is just the basics, the hard stuff is theoretical

[hearty island]

yea. not later on.

[static willow]

Did/do you both attend for CS? I really have a feeling they do this bc I'm technically in the engineering program and they like to be extra

[true harness]

maybe the method names should be more memorable :P

[fringe sphinx]

I think most ppl will agree with you. Memorization is not an important skill for SWEs.

Hmm. Im an older coder. I don't think I'd say that, but I'd say every day reminds me that I'm living in the future.

[true harness]

i'm a CS student, yep. do you code by hand in exams often? what courses are these for?

[fringe sphinx]

😭

You'd be surprised at how many of us there are

[static willow]

All first year obv (im in second), as well as my imperative programming class (C), OOP class (Java), and ADT/Alg class (python)

The python one isn't really code, pseudo-code rather

[whole flare]

[true harness]

yeah. these make sense to have you code by hand. further courses probably won't

[whole flare]

I'm sure they were joking

[static willow]

CS students def ahead of us SWE students in terms of coding bc we had to take all these first year engineering classes... My one CS buddy has had a 4 day weekend for idk how long too lol

[static willow]

As an "older coder" lol, do you find some of the HLL approaches to be a little troubling? What I mean by that is they're supposed to simplify complex computational problems into a more readable form, but I find this to kind of hinder one's understanding of what's truly occurring

[fringe sphinx]

Example? Not sure I know what you're referring to.

You mean like UML?

[static willow]

Computer architecture is the prime example here I'd say

Because it's easy to say that a machine logically works this way, but obviously physically doesn't.

UML ig would be REALLY high-level compared to what I'm talking about

[fringe sphinx]

Not sure I follow what you're contrasting then. What HLL approaches? Just Python in general vs c or something?

[true harness]

what does "HLL" mean here?

[static willow]

high-level language

[static willow]

This is more along the lines of assembly/ARM architecture HLL approaches

[fringe sphinx]

I'm not sure what those words have to do with each other, your usage of 'hll' seems out of place here

[near ocean]

People who can comfortably find jobs without a degree arent ones to ask in discord whether unpaid internships are worth doing 😶

[hearty island]

this is just a general question, in a portfolio project do people prefer .ipynb or .py files?

@whole flare it's the same one from like the entire day

[whole flare]

?

oh I forgot I was typing something in here and didn't send it lol

[hearty island]

the data viz i asked for help on. oh.

[zealous path]

I don’t think people mind.
Notebooks are just a pain to git track and review in devops

So we convert them to py files

[near ocean]

Its not a shot and some self awareness would help you a lot in life
A degree is the easiest way to find a job

[fringe sphinx]

Just to rewind to this point of the thread: if you're asking- "how does one land an entry job in CS?" The answer is; get a degree and be competent.

[smoky quest]

the value ain't in the paper but with the skills and knowledge that come with it

[near ocean]

That piece of paper unlocks so many doors...

[fringe sphinx]

Is it worth 20-50k to unlock a mid to high 5 figure (or possibly six) starting salary in the US? That seems like an easy math equation to me.

And, as others pointed out, it's more than a piece of paper. I've hired both degreed and non degreed engineers (entry levels), and let's just say the non degreed did not have a good success rate

[static willow]

Imo you can learn everything at uni yourself, you just won’t unless you’re forced to

[near ocean]

The paper itself is worth the price tag, anything you pick up is extra

[fringe sphinx]

That's an academic discussion: you won't get an interview. That's our main point; whatever you want to believe, the hiring managers today aren't looking at non degreed candidates. You'll have to start in help desk or QA or some non SWE role.

I won't look at the self taught. Wouldn't pass the screen. I'm being genuinely honest here.

I've been a hiring manager for a long time: the only time I considered them was during the 'droughts' of 2015-2018 timeframe when it was impossible to find qualified candidates.

[static willow]

Does having an engineering degree mean much anymore in the tech field? I know people with IT degrees working as engineers… The title seems like it’s just handed out at this point.

[fringe sphinx]

And even then, maybe 1 worked out.

[smoky quest]

it's a distance function. The further away from the ideal role, the more costly the move

[hearty island]

i'm a biz analytics major. fully accepted i won't get a coding job (most likely). lmao.

[near ocean]

Who is saying otherwise

[true harness]

this is unrealistic though. i'm not even out of university yet and i have a bunch of projects on my github

[whole flare]

[fringe sphinx]

There is some semantics in the phrasing of the question: "do you need a degree to get a SWE interview?" Is the question I'm answering.

And right now, the answer is most assuredly yes. Historically -some- people have made it, but with great difficulty or adversity. But today's market is different than what it was 10 years ago.

[true harness]

see what. the projects? why?

[whole flare]

so true, me too 🙏

[hearty island]

....uhhh

[near ocean]

Not really on topic tbh
Anyway you shouldn't really take Reddit opinions too seriously, if you still don't want to get a degree then don't 🤷‍♀️

Don't take them that seriously either but they can't be worse than Reddit

Talk to real life software engineers and see what they think

[smoky quest]

I would also suggest to consider it as a bet.
What if you are right that you will easily find a job without a degree, but also what happens if you are wrong?

[fringe sphinx]

You came here with a conclusion and have been unhappy we disagree with it. You're entitled to your opinion, but please don't be a jerk about it.

[near ocean]

When you find the time to talk to one that says you dont need a degree, ask for a referral

Bro have you ever seen the kind of posts that go on in r/cscareerquestions

Half these people are straight LARPing and the other half are playing along

[fringe sphinx]

I think at this point, time to move on.

[near ocean]

One last thing before i go to bed

Purely cause i thought it was a funny coincidence

[whole flare]

only 1,171 online 👀

[whole flare]

lmao i need to know how that post ends

[smoky quest]

For each job ad, we receive thousands of applicants, most of which with degrees, awesome internships and great projects.
Self taught typically end up at the bottom of the pile as their profile do not stand out in comparison

[peak halo]

Thank you 💚

[smoky quest]

it's saturated with low quality applicants who are attracted by the high pay and fun environments

Good students don't have a problem finding jobs.

[static willow]

Any insight on the current internship market? I’ve applied for three years straight to no prevail… I’ve been ghosted/rejected so many times by now

[near ocean]

Theres also the thousands of more experienced devs laid off from last year

[smoky quest]

market is tough, but also tons of resumes aren't great

[peak halo]

my department took on interns last summer even though we were in a hiring freeze for full-time positions. because (paid) interns are very inexpensive compared even to junior full-time people. other companies might have a similar outlook.

does your university have a career services office? have you met with them about your resume and internship-hunting strategy?

[smoky quest]

Feel free to post an anonymized version of your resume for feedback

[static willow]

That’s the other issue I was going to bring up, I go to uni in Canada but applying in the US. There’s such big discrepancies there

I’d prefer not tell everyone lol, there’s only so many in Canada tho

[static willow]

But I even calculated my gpa wrong at one point because our scales are wildly different. I said I had a 3.33 instead of 3.7 and I think that might’ve really turned employers away?

[true harness]

https://github.com/vipyrsec/dragonfly-mainframe here's a project i contribute to frequently

[static willow]

That’s a great idea, I think I’ll do so once I update it again. I already know some things I need/want to fix (gpa especially lmao)

[peak halo]

@static willow if your in-major GPA is higher than your overall GPA, you can have that in your resume as well, as long as it's clear that that's what you're doing

[fleet reef]

finding malware

[static willow]

Yeah, fair point… I also didn’t have any projects on there because I figured my school projects weren’t worth anything to employers. I plan to ramp up personal projects this summer just to have something on my resume to be proud of lol

[true harness]

did you send return offers? I heard lots of stories of internships still going but without hiring them after

[lavish ridge]

Would anyone be down to mocking me with a medium or hard question? Just a quick one 20-30 mins? I've done many, so i should be able to solve relatively quickly, just trying to work and polish my presentation.

[austere geyser]

Yo i want to ask can python decode lua code?

[smoky quest]

You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help

[austere geyser]

thx

[celest scroll]

Is MSc Data Science a good path into the data science field? Or would a course such as Statistics or computer science be a better way in ?

[fringe sphinx]

All three are viable. DS is probably the most logical, for sure.

[white relic]

You can even get a bachelor's in computer science and go on to get a master's in data science, if you want

[celest scroll]

Thanks for the responses. I’m currently doing a BEng in electrical engineering and I’m mid-placement at a company called Siemens doing automation engineering. I’m keen to make myself stand out as much as possible for a DS grad scheme hence the masters idea

[white relic]

Hah, I just spoke to some Siemens folks at a conference last week

[celest scroll]

We’re everywhere ! Haha

[gritty rivet]

Wrong channel... You can try #tools-and-devops but you may need to provide more details #❓｜how-to-get-help

[buoyant shore]

lol here is the python support

[vapid jay]

👍

[hearty island]

how should i explain my portfolio project? looking at this vid for now.

https://youtu.be/-mQkrH4-E8A

like do i use an .ipynb file?

[deft herald]

Explain it on what? your resume?

[hearty island]

on my github portfolio page.

[deft herald]

You can use a .ipynb. It will render on github (though it won't be interactive)

[hearty island]

I’m just having a hard time trying to turn my word vomit of a project into a coherent one

[hearty island]

"I found this tortilla price dataset from Mexico from Kaggle. My hypothesis is that supermarkets offer lower prices for tortillas compared to convenience stores and traditional markets in Mexico. I used the dataset from Kaggle and created a box plot to indicate that mom and pop stores had a significantly higher price than big retail stores from 2007 to 2024. i created a kernel density estimate plot to compare Mom and Pop Stores v Big Retail Stores as well, to showcase the differing amounts in price per kilogram for a tortilla. I then noticed a significant price hike from 2019 to 2022 for Mom and Pop Stores as compared to retail stores. I then went to search for a dataset containing a CPI index of Monthly changes in Consumer Price Index of corn tortillas in mexico from january 2021 to january 2023. from there i observed a significant dip from 2022-01 to 2022-10. The CPI is CPI (Consumer Price Index): This is a measure of the average change over time in the prices paid by urban consumers for a basket of goods and services. It helps gauge inflation and reflects the cost of living. In this case, we’re specifically looking at the CPI for corn tortillas. The +11.63% increase suggests that corn tortillas are becoming more expensive over time" this is what i have so far.

it's as i said. word vomit.

[deft herald]

that's for sure

[hearty island]

yea, dude. unacceptable. it's definitely interesting, however.

[deft herald]

Ok i would suggest "professionalizing" this a bit more. To start, get rid of first person - that's one of the biggest indicators of amateurish writing. This is also good advice for any comments in code - never use pronouns like "I", "we", etc

[fringe sphinx]

The narrative is fine, but it's missing 'why'

[hearty island]

i like tortillas 😭

[deft herald]

Answer the questions What? Why? and How? in that order, using succinct points

[fringe sphinx]

lol, but even that is fine. A good story starts and ends with why.

[deft herald]

maybe why first?

[fringe sphinx]

(Or maybe ends with 'so what')

Doesn't have to be something incredibly serious, just enough to follow the story.

[hearty island]

how about i liked tortillas a lot when i was in mexico and wanted to see if they also experienced a price hike during the pandemic years and if so why?

[true harness]

I love using "royal 'we'" in comments 😦

[deft herald]

oof 😄

[hearty island]

man it would be really helpful if i found a portfolio project of someone else's to have a working template of

[turbid bobcat]

aight, ready or not, I've started applying, @hearty island how did you do for those referral things do I just sign up to blind ?

[hearty island]

you sign up to blind and go to the job referrals section and look for people saying they'll give referrals

[turbid bobcat]

what's in it for them ? don't the companies discourage this stuff ?

[hearty island]

(absolutely 0 guarantee you will get anything)

[true harness]

# we flop the pig to avoid the initial overhead of moving our troops to the enemy flank. this gives us a huge optimization for a tiny increase in complexity

[turbid bobcat]

gotta try every angle

[hearty island]

honestly I abandoned the strategy

[turbid bobcat]

referrals didnt work ? I've also found that the ones I do have have not worked out

[hearty island]

i favor just applying via LinkedIn

[turbid bobcat]

ig it kinda makes sense cuz you can just go on blind and ask for one xdddd

[turbid bobcat]

im legit deleting mine - the spam is unbearable

[hearty island]

Uhh. Your LinkedIn?

[deft herald]

# The pig is flopped to avoid the initial overhead of moving troops to the enemy flank. this gives a huge optimization for a tiny increase in complexity

[hearty island]

@fringe sphinx what do you think about what I said?

[turbid bobcat]

my linkedin: Im totally not in the US, I'd totally require visa sponsorship, also I do ML, that's what I do that's what I've been doing for a while now
recruiter: would ya be interested in this frontend position in the US, btw we dont sponsor visa

[hearty island]

Oh fuck that.

[turbid bobcat]

I can't justify having to maintain the profile given how little benefit is giving me

[hearty island]

I maintain it for funsies

[fringe sphinx]

That's fine, that little intro is enough

[hearty island]

You need a work email for blind btw

[turbid bobcat]

I have one, I also have my own email domain with my first and last name, dont know if that would count

[hearty island]

The people on Fishbowl are lowkey assholes too. Like one of them told me doing six internships is a red flag and that my experience is mid. Which maybe it is, but they could say that in a nicer way.

They said that doing six internships means that you’re not good enough to secure a full time job

[turbid bobcat]

I thought you did them before graduating

but that's a pretty toxic take tho

[hearty island]

I did do them before graduating. Haven’t even graduated yet. I graduate in May.

[turbid bobcat]

then it doesn't even make sense right, why would you get a full time position if you are still to graduate

[hearty island]

Well I don’t wanna graduate and be unemployed

[turbid bobcat]

yeah but don't employers prefer that you finish your studies first

[gritty rivet]

Six?! That does sound a bit crazy.

To the mean rando's point, prospective employers are likely to ask why, unless maybe there's a very strong progression to them

[hearty island]

Well I went from a tiny company to a Fortune 500 in managed care

a big healthcare company

[gritty rivet]

That could be progression depending on the roles

Or course if they'll hire you on graduating then none of this matters

[hearty island]

i mean I think it’s progression merely based on company size too

[hearty island]

I guess so.

[hearty island]

Well, I mean I transferred to a crappy college and I had to compensate somehow for the shitty education I got.

[smoky quest]

skills don't correlate with company size

[hearty island]

And I figured there’d be no way to compensate for it but do the internships so I can build my resume from it

[hearty island]

True

[turbid bobcat]

"we will be in touch - usually within 1-2 months, although this may take longer if we receive high levels of interest"

1-2 months 💀

[hearty island]

recursive_error is about to drop a bomb on me. oh it's not me.

[smoky quest]

think in terms of pipelines. Imaging you have thousands of applicants, you eliminate the weird resumes, the bad candidates, the not so great candidates and then interview based of the top, ~2-5 candidates a week. That easily translate into 1-2 months.

[smoky quest]

do you want to? 😉

[hearty island]

nope i'm good, chief.

[turbid bobcat]

I understand, that's why I'm applying to lots of companies. this one was isomorphic labs actually, so I expect it to be super competitive

but also, hopefully I won't be jobless for more than 2 months starting now

[smoky quest]

And then if you add interviews and negotiation, it can easily take 1-3months from first contact to offer

[vital wyvern]

I'm being inundated with interviews at the moment. Which is positive but a little stressful because I'm trying to do good research on all the companies I'm applying for and not waste anyone's time.

[turbid bobcat]

startups tend to move faster tho, I've gotten hired within a month from first contact

[smoky quest]

tbh, it depends mostly on the people and company than their size. I have seen things taking 4months for startups too

[turbid bobcat]

yeah I'd imagine there's variability, I'm just gonna mass apply while keeping track of the applications, gonna be a numbers game I'm sure

would be nice to end up at an ML lab tho, been having fun with the math and the cuda stuff

[fringe sphinx]

Secretary paradox

[turbid bobcat]

I've removed the education section on my resume, will soon find out if it was a good idea

[whole flare]

startups do indeed move fast

I created and dissolved one in two hours

[whole flare]

so true

applies for an amazon internship
gets rejected (took them 4 months to even respond)
6 months later
amazon recruiter: would you like to work for us?
me: how about you touch grass

[turbid bobcat]

I usually get a response within 3 days of applying to a startup

[ornate python]

Hey! I'm a 3D artist skilled at turning ideas into stunning models for 3D printing and games. I create awesome stuff like guns, cars, and more. Let's bring your vision to life!"

[turbid bobcat]

sometiems they do take 1 month to respond, but must've happened like one time. large companies on the other hand take quite a while, I'm still getting rejections from applications in January

[whole flare]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[whole flare]

Unapproved advertising isn't allowed

[turbid bobcat]

I can also sense that every company is gonna ask me to create an account in their website, verify email, and rewrite my entire resume in their forms

might have to automate this somehow, cuz otherwise I'm just gonna leave whatever their AI away takes from the resume

[gritty rivet]

I feel like companies do this just to save themselves the trouble of them throwing your resume away. I have to be extraordinarily interested in a specific company to bother with that nonsense.

[turbid bobcat]

I don't agree with it either way. From my point of view I don't really have a choice but to apply to a lot of positions that match my skillset and interest. Like, I can't research in depth every company I apply to because most of them are either gonna ghost or reject.

I usually do a more in depth discovery if they do respond, til then I kinda pretend I never even sent an application

[open loom]

Should I be a physicist or programmer in terms of life quality?

[turbid bobcat]

programmer, hands down, not even close, if you wanna like life -> programmer

[open loom]

Someone told me that there are now loads of programmers and companies just replace you with the newer generation better ones and if you want to stay you always have to grind and keep up with the new technology is that true?

I actually was thinking about being one but he kind of scared me.

[digital fjord]

I cannot speak on physics, but it is indeed expected that you will continue to learn more as a programmer all the time.

[turbid bobcat]

uhm, my personal opinion is that if you wanna be super competitive you need to grind, but I've certainly seen people who just coast at a company and don't evolve nor grind because they're satisfied

[white relic]

very few people are actually employed as "physicists" so my first question would be what do you imagine that life entails

people I know who are physicists, either by title or de facto, have a heck of a grind keeping up with current research.

[open loom]

Ok thank you also i have been thinking about AI, is programming a job that will be replaced by AI except a few programmers who are more creative than AI and who cant be replaced? So even if i grind would i lose my job against AI?

[turbid bobcat]

whatever horror stories you might hear from the programming side, it's not even close to the worst you can get in academia

[open loom]

Oh

[white relic]

being a research scientist at a company with lots of money can be really cool and chill. Still though you gotta keep up with current research.

But that's a long path to plan your career around compared to becoming a programmer. PhD minimum, maybe a postdoc, get published a few times, establish credentials and then you have a shot

[open loom]

True

[white relic]

AI is not currently capable of replacing software developers en masse, nor is there a likely path of technological progress in the immediate future that will make it capable.

[turbid bobcat]

that said, I don't regret going into physics, tho if I was a kid again I'd do it with the transition to ML in mind

[open loom]

Yes but since i am 17 and AI is developing so fast, i have a fear

[turbid bobcat]

AI is not even close to replacing programmers, it's mostly just advertising pushing the narrative because there's a lot of venture capital money flowing into it

[white relic]

AI took a big leap forward in recent memory with LLMs. But language models are not currently capable of replacing programmers and it's by no means obvious that there's another breakthrough innovation hiding in the wings that will enable that kind of improvement.

[turbid bobcat]

these are also extremely vulnerable systems that you can hack into using only natural language, you wouldn't want them in front of anything marginally critical, not even attending to emails

[open loom]

Oh, thank you i am relieved

[white relic]

That isn't to say that I think such an innovation isn't there, although I am skeptical; the point is, nobody knows what the future holds and predicting massive improvements in AI at the same "rate" as the last year or two is unsubstantiated speculation.
(If you can even quantify the "rate" of innovation in a field like this)

[open loom]

Then now all i have to do is start learning Python. 😜

[white relic]

A couple years ago, many people would have sworn that truck drivers would be among the first jobs replaced by AI.
I bet the next major innovation (when it comes) will come from an angle people aren't expecting now.

[smoky quest]

If I was worried about AI in tech, which I am not, I would be even more worried about AI in physics. We are using so much computation to prove theorems, device experiments, etc.

[open loom]

Yes i was also worried about that but didn't ask since i already made my mind.

[turbid bobcat]

my current strat now is to scare recruiters into hiring me, anyone who opens any of my projects get greeted with tensor calculus

[olive remnant]

Does anyone know good IT universities in Europe? Preferably in Estonia, Finland and France

[peak halo]

You can look up university rankings. Though you should consider also: is the university in a city where you'd like to live? Do companies you might want to work for recruit interns and graduates from there? Do they offer courses that cater to your specific interests? These are questions specific to you, that are ultimately more important than the ranking.

[olive remnant]

It doesn’t matter, but preferably in capitals or large cities, I looked at the ratings, but I would like to hear advice, perhaps from students of some universities in these countries

[placid haven]

How can you get this

[vapid jay]

dude its $15/hr with a Bachelor's Degree

[near ocean]

🤷‍♀️ people will still apply

[turbid bobcat]

That's actually pretty standard in a lot of low COL countries

[hearty island]

Guys, I just got an email from FINRA

[vapid jay]

That’s crazy

How could I get a job with my python skills, I got about 5 years ish and no degree.

[harsh river]

about what?

[near ocean]

5 years should make it easy (easier anyway) for you to find a job
What issues are you facing?

[hearty island]

“I hope you're well today! I wanted to reach out to you regarding the R-007353 Corporate Actions Analyst, Transparency Services (Open)that you recently applied to. Your skills and experience look interesting and I'd like to schedule an exploratory call with you.

Please let me know what time works best for you and I'll send you a confirmation email. I look forward to connecting with you.

Kind Regards,
Recruiter Name”

[vapid jay]

damn, bro is getting filtered out bcz no education

[vapid jay]

this is los Angeles

[hearty island]

Should I go for it or what, they forgot to leave a space between the word “Hi” and my name

[near ocean]

Education is important

[hearty island]

so it looks like HiDamian,

[vapid jay]

No education, I didnt think 5 was enough ngl

[hearty island]

But that might be a typo? So idk

[near ocean]

Is that 5 years of professional experience? Or 5 years otherwise

[vapid jay]

well, you applied didn't you? Go for it

[turbid bobcat]

damn

[hearty island]

Honestly I don’t remember if I applied, it’s gotta be stuck somewhere in the back of all my applications

but fuck it we ball

[turbid bobcat]

Sure does sound like you did, from the wording of the email

Actually it directly states it

[hearty island]

Yeah, doesn’t mean I remember 😭😭😭. I apply a lot

[harsh river]

this is the wrong place to ask for HTML help, try in any of the offtopic channels.

!ot

[inner wren]

Off-topic channel

#ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare

Please read our off-topic etiquette before participating in conversations.

[turbid bobcat]

I'm tryna keep a spreadsheet to at least avoid applying to the same company. But I'm also gonna go the mass apply strat

[hearty island]

I have an entire application tracker. It’s called Stipplo. Free chrome extension. Tracks an unlimited amount of jobs.

[turbid bobcat]

Oh didn't think of searching for extensions, that's a nice one

[harsh river]

ask in the offtopic channels.

[turbid bobcat]

Idk how much more prepared I can possibly be. So whatever happens happens.

[hearty island]

You’ll be fine

[hollow swallow]

Does it make sense to get into coding if your IQ is like way below average and you suck at problem solving?

[fringe sphinx]

I've never seen anything that's a good predictor of coding ability. If you enjoy it, or are curious, it seems worth a try.

[near ocean]

Sure, most of my coworkers suck at problem solving and theyre doing fine

[turbid bobcat]

Hopefully

[turbid bobcat]

I postulate that patience is a good predictor

[hearty island]

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/corporate-actions-analyst-transparency-services-at-finra-3806554275/

i must've applied like 2 months ago, according to my stipplo tracker.

except bro i have no idea what corporate actions are???

this is why you don't over-tailor your resume to roles you don't fit to.

[hearty island]

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/081303.asp corp actions according to investopedia

[open loom]

Should i consider moving to Switzerland just because their avarage salary is more? Could i find a job easily? Also could i live/work there with English since i know german but it is Austrian German plus it is my 3rd language so I imagine it would be very tiresome to try to communicate with Switerzland German which is a lot different? I am aware these questions are very specific and i cant expect anyone to know this much detail but i wanted to ask for general detail since i don't feel comfortable trusting only Google + i can't get certain answers from it.

[peak halo]

Would you even be eligible to work there? It's not part of the EU.

[open loom]

Yes but can i still not work there?

[peak halo]

what country are you a citizen of?

[open loom]

Austria

Do i need citizenship to work there?

My father and a lot of people i know came from outside Europe to here and started to work in IT.

[peak halo]

Looks like Austrian (and EU/EFTA) citizens can work in Switzerland

!cban 1221578425702023188 It looks like you're just here to post spam

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied ban to @hoary shale permanently.

[harsh remnant]

Where did you guys find your first internship position? LinkedIn, Indeed, references?

[open loom]

Thank you

[peak halo]

These data indicate that even though Swiss German speakers in Switzerland learn Standard German, they still use Swiss German in the workplace.

[open loom]

Also one more question, i am confused. I feel like Google is misleading me or i am reading a lot of information wrongly.

[open loom]

Oh, that is unfortunate:/ Thank you.

[peak halo]

Does your university have a career services center? Because they would keep track of where your classmates are finding internships. (I'm assuming you're a student.)

[open loom]

I found that programmer salary is about 56k in Austria and about 100k+ ( I don't exactly remember) in Switzerland. Now if this is what an avarge person needs than how will i live comfortable? Will i not be rich as a programmer and do what i want to without worrying about money? Also since i can't really be sure of Google, can you please tell me what avarage people earn/spend and after what it is a good salary where you don't worry about money?

[peak halo]

Sounds like you're trying to account for currency conversion and local cost of living. But you also need to make sure that you're only comparing interchangeable positions. Don't just compare "the average programmer in x" and "the average programmer in y". Compare "two back-end web developers with five years of experience" in both countries.

[open loom]

It cames out about the same, the change is only noticable after 15-20 years...

[peak halo]

That's not surprising. If it's easy for workers to switch between countries, there isn't much reason why salaries in both countries wouldn't respond similarly to other market forces.

[open loom]

Well yes but what i wonder is about what should i excpect to earn and what kind of an amount makes a good living?

And what the people with moderate living standards spend/earn because how is that i find 73k for the expenses of an average person and the programmer salary is 56k, i don't believe a programmer would be in debt of 17k yearly?

[harsh river]

what kind of an amount makes a good living?

this depends entirely on where you are, what the COL and how comfty you want to be.

[open loom]

I am in Austria, have been thinking about Switzerland or England? and for example i want to live in a newly made good looking 200 m2 house + garden enough for a dog. Not worry about money and do the activities i want to do.

[harsh river]

sorry we aren't able to do the research for you, you'll have to look at the cost of living in switzerland, in the city you want to move to, what the average rent is, what a house that size costs and so on and so forth, and then you need to do the calculations to see if your salary will cover the costs of what you want.
one thing i can tell you though, switzerland is significantly more expensive than england.

[open loom]

But i found that the salaries in Switzerland are also much better. Can you maybe tell me what is the salary in your living area and are people comfortable?

[vapid jay]

.topic

[harsh river]

salaries in switzerland will be much better because the cost of living is much higher.

[buoyant seal]

consider including into your calculations also "Taxes".
Real salary is a Net of sum equaled to Profits minus Taxes and Cost of living

[knotty flower]

?

[peak halo]

Yes?

[hearty island]

Guys I have an idea for a project. What if I was able to find a way to predict the length of a sports player’s career accurately given some data?

The problem is idk what data just yet.

That’s kinda the first step

[whole flare]

nice, now think of suitable data

[hearty island]

The things I do at 11 at night lmao

[buoyant seal]

3:51 AM, i am writing my pet project 😅

[hearty island]

Lmaooo

[buoyant seal]

more than that... i took vacation 1 week for having time to rush and complete it
i do hope i will be able acomplish it within this time frame
Completely non proffit project 😅

[hearty island]

https://www.bruinsportsanalytics.com/post/predicting-nba-career-lifespans?ssp=1&darkschemeovr=1&setlang=en&cc=US&safesearch=moderate

Why is it that whenever I think of a project, someone’s already fucking done it? It’s so irritating.

[whole flare]

just think of different analytical insights you can get from the data

[hearty island]

nothing new under the sun

[whole flare]

you can't expect every project you do to be a novel idea dude

[deft herald]

This even happens in my career

I work on a project some times only to find out "wait, you mean three other teams are doing the same exact thing but in a different way?"

[hearty island]

I’ve seen it done with NBA players. Never with soccer/football players.

[whole flare]

then get cooking..

🗿

[hearty island]

but finding the dataset is making me die inside. There’s data everywhere, why does it never fit my use case?

[whole flare]

😔

[hearty island]

https://fbref.com/en/ wait a minute

[hearty island]

nope. cannot download data.

[sullen quail]

Hello i am working on dejavu so any of you have any idea on dejavu(Audio fingerprinting and recognition algorithm) so any of can help me to build this system

[smoky quest]

Hi!
It's unrelated to #career-advice . You may want to check #❓｜how-to-get-help and it looks like #media-processing would be more appropriate for your question

[sullen quail]

"I'm currently working on integrating Dejavu, an audio fingerprinting and recognition algorithm, into my Python project. However, I'm encountering several errors during the implementation process. To ensure I'm following the best practices and troubleshooting effectively, I'd greatly appreciate guidance from the Python community.

[smoky quest]

You should read the message just above: #career-advice message

[smoky quest]

this channel is about careers

[turbid bobcat]

Hi, you gotta manage your space a bit better here

[turbid bobcat]

No idea either, but sounds bureocratic

[honest patio]

Good morning (or whichever time applies to you) ! I've been working with python for a while professionaly as a consultant and I want to get a certification. Problem is I don't know which certification is recognized as valuable in the industry (my cluster manager doesn't know either, so I get to be the guinea pig to find out). Can you give me some advice on this topic?

[smoky quest]

outside of devops/networking, certifications have zero value

[honest patio]

what makes you say that? Is it not proof that you passed an exam and know what you're doing?

[smoky quest]

The part where certifications have zero value and aren't considered makes me say that.
Anyone can create a cert. I could create my own Recursive Error Certified Awesomeness based on my very own criteria

knowing python is not fancy or special in itself. It's basic too

And in terms of career, a CS degree has far more value than any cert.

[honest patio]

I know anyone can create a cert, that's the problem. I did some that were obviously just cash grabs by the issuer. But Java certs like OCA and OCP are valued at my company, I just want to know what the python equivalent to those would be.

[smoky quest]

Are you working outside of the tech sector? I don't doubt some companies might value OCA and OCP, but I have yet to meet any that does in tech

[honest patio]

I work in IT consultancy. the account managers who arrange our assignments at customers don't know much about the tech. the hiring managers who hire us at the customers don't know much about the tech. the certifications are mostly for their benefit. It allows the company to charge a higher price for my time.

[smoky quest]

oh that makes sense if outside of the tech sector. Thanks!
Unfortunately, that's not my area of expertise

[gritty rivet]

I guess these? But I would check with your employer because like recursive error said, programming certs are generally seen as a joke in my experience. https://pythoninstitute.org/terms-and-conditions

[honest patio]

That's what I found. My employer is ok with reinbursing me for it. In my industry certificates are valued, but apparently mostly by the people who don't understand the tech. But since they're the ones writing the paychecks, I guess I'll humor them?

[buoyant seal]

Those certs are valuable, anything about practioner level.
AWS Developer, AWS Solution architect and etc
P.S. their exams aren't free too though

Pretty much for any python related job role can be found a match here
DevOps people for Operations/Developer/DevOps
Backend dev for Developer/Solution Architect and etc
Machine learning people for Developer/Machine Learning and etc

[hushed fable]

i am searching for a developer will edit Python software with my needed
if you ok dm me paid!

[fringe sphinx]

We don't allow recruiting or offers of payment. Try Fiverr or Upwork.

[hushed fable]

ok thanks

[plush summit]

How hard or deadlines in worklife now in uni

[digital fjord]

That depends heavily on the company, but usually delays are tolerated to a greater extent than at uni.

[plush summit]

Like for me i failed for example this module cuz of time but could have finished if i had 1 week more

[pine sleet]

generally speaking if you're working on a major product or feature at work and you're really close to being done at the deadline they're not just gonna completely drop everything and fire you

[digital fjord]

There are hard deadlines, e.g. feature freezes and release dates are usually fixed, but if you are given responsibilities relating to key things that need doing before those deadlines, you'll usually be qualified enough to pull it off/ask for help.

[whole flare]

cybersec 🗿

[hearty island]

Wdym

Like on the resume?

[turbid bobcat]

yes, you can reasonably fit a lot more information without cramming

[hearty island]

I guess I can fit a project section too

[turbid bobcat]

yes that's also good

[hearty island]

Jake’s resume does have a projects section. I just removed it bc I didn’t originally have any noteworthy projects. Now that I think about them more, more come to me

it’s fun to design projects for me now

[turbid bobcat]

some suggestions

[white relic]

To add to what others have said, you have to be prepared to advocate for yourself. If your boss gives you a project due in two weeks and you need four, "I can't do this in the time allotted" is an acceptable answer (in non-toxic workspaces). And it's the project manager's job to ensure that you have what you need to meet the deadline or put someone else on it if you can't

[hearty island]

These bullet points are kinda mid too. I’m shocked it got through the ATS. “Used a desktop computer” ok and?

like what was I smoking when I wrote this

i think I just borrow terms and phrases from their job description and pray it works

[turbid bobcat]

it's perfectly fine to write a draft and iterate on it, I always write wtv and then improve. what is lean six sigma ?

[hearty island]

It’s a concept for teams to engage in continual improvement and reduce waste. Useless cert that means nothing if you ask me. Just managerial noise.

my employer made me get it

[turbid bobcat]

it's better to try to mention it within a bullet point, like how did you apply that knowledge, 100x better than any cert imo

[hearty island]

true, but they didn’t mention lean six sigma anywhere in the job description

[turbid bobcat]

it's like, "I got a cert for aws" vs "I implemented a continuous deploymet thing that automates EC2 etc etc"

[hearty island]

Yeah I completely agree

[turbid bobcat]

I've even removed my education section in favor of more bullet points in my XP and projects - but will see the outcome of that one

[hearty island]

I ain’t doin that

[turbid bobcat]

it would make less sense for you since you have a relevant BSc and no XP outside internships. I got a bsc on some other area and an incomplete MSc so I'd rather focus on the outcomes of my education, like talks and research that I've done, and I also got a strong portfolio that I wanna show

but it might not workout if recruiters look at it like a checkbox type of thing

[hearty island]

Yeah, diff circumstances

[turbid bobcat]

glassdoor salary estimates are so bad, aint no way anthropic is paying 30-80k pounds in London, in the US they're giving almost half a million to engineers and researchers

and the location of the posting includes London, so I assume the only adjustment is currency

[near ocean]

Who is anthropic and why would they pay this much when the only other company that even comes close to this is citadel

[turbid bobcat]

they're the LLM company backed by google, like how open ai is backed by msft, both of them offer these kinds of salaries

it's the company behind Claude

[hearty island]

ah claude. i've seen my friends use it.

[turbid bobcat]

unsure if this will stay the same once the LLM hype calms down

maybe it was always this high, idk

actually, amazon has invested more, a margin of a couple billion

[hearty island]

i can't wait till it calms down

i'm sick of this llm bullshit

[near ocean]

Cant wait till it goes away

[hearty island]

it's not taking our jobs and i'm not trying to explain why it isn't either.

[near ocean]

Most python jobs i see either are DS or some chatbot api glue hack

[hearty island]

this is why i wanna do data viz/ business intelligence/ data analytics in a specific industry.

[turbid bobcat]

the true winner is nvidia, the platform where all the hype runs

[hearty island]

low code solutions like power bi and tableau are fine by me too. wait is it considered low code?

yea i think it is

[true harness]

it's not going away

[near ocean]

I should have stuck with java after school

[hearty island]

is this too unrealistic of an aim? an MSBA (masters in business analytics) and a masters in finance after my undergrad from hofstra?

i'd want to do it at another school.

[fringe sphinx]

A double masters seems pointless, at least that combination unless you're working in finance

[hearty island]

i do want to work in finance tho.

[fringe sphinx]

I loved working in Java. Was a nice balance, a good ecosystem

[hearty island]

financial analytics seems cool to me.

[hearty island]

it all started coming to me after my tortilla project. i was thinking i'd do it at baruch.

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe you need to move on to other taco related ingredients

[hearty island]

LOL. steak?

[fringe sphinx]

Have you seen my username?

[hearty island]

hahaha i have, yeah. i think it's a funny one. it's a lot more unique than mine.

[hearty island]

mine is a psuedonym off my last initial, and the 78 is bc argentina hosted a world cup in 1978

[turbid bobcat]

one company is asking me to make a video just to apply

not gonna do it for the same reason I don't include a photo on my resume

[hearty island]

i'm sorry, make?

[turbid bobcat]

yeah, they want you to film yourself introducing yourself and send it to them, it's obligatory too

[hearty island]

oh fuck that

[turbid bobcat]

yeah it's a hard pass

[whole flare]

a data rich industry like competitive sports 🙂

[hearty island]

smart. or healthcare. like the medicaid/medicare stuff.

[turbid bobcat]

I've applied for enough jobs for today. I missed having endless job postings

[regal axle]

I had a pre interview stage where I had to film myself answering questions that I was just seeing for the first time. It was strange.

[turbid bobcat]

it sounds weird, bet it was an european company, they always have these weird customs

[fringe sphinx]

I've heard of those. Seems weird

No, seems incredibly lazy

[regal axle]

It was american

It was goldman sachs

[turbid bobcat]

wasn't goldman sachs responsible for 2008 or somethng, how are they a company

[whole flare]

they have money

[turbid bobcat]

so did FTX

Wait no, they lost all the money wasn't it

[whole flare]

lmfao

[true harness]

i'm not sure about normal, but it seems somewhat reasonable. they have a budget for which to pay you with, and if you stay past when it runs out, then they don't have any more money. as for legality, unpaid internships are legal, as long as they meet certain requirements

[cobalt moat]

Why don’t unpaid internships violate minimum wage laws?

[true harness]

you will need to ask a lawyer that one. afaik, they aren't considered "work"

[hearty island]

was it a hirevue?

[white relic]

that's pretty normal for contract work

but if they expect you to keep working despite not paying you, that's different

[turbid bobcat]

onsite sauna

[analog sun]

But will you be given time to use it?

[turbid bobcat]

that's a good question

[whole flare]

work remote from the sauna onsite

[regal axle]

Not sure what that is. So I guess not

[turbid bobcat]

I'd only use it if it's a private sauna tho >.>

the breakfest and lunch are rather appealing tho, I enjoy food, and I also enjoy not washing dishes

[vapid jay]

Hi ya'll. I had a question about tech companies with non-technical roles to get my foot in the door?

What is "Testing" ??? and how is that communicated in job ads? I ask becasue when I look it up, I keep getting software engineer credentials with 5+ years of experience required.

[vapid jay]

What I'm reading is: "This is home now, you cannot leave."

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm not necessarily if they allow hybrid

[vapid jay]

depends on company culture tbh. Like they can say "Hybrid" on paper, but if manager comes up to you and says "You have to come in." and everyone else just falls in line, then that's that. 😦

[smoky quest]

the job ad would reflect that

[turbid bobcat]

Lying to me is a great way to have me leave in a couple months

[smoky quest]

testing is a technical role though. It can go from manually testing the app, to automating the testing

[vapid jay]

Don't job ads pull fast ones all the time, though?

[hearty island]

It’s an online recorded interview software

[smoky quest]

Why would they do that? There is zero incentive to do that

[fringe sphinx]

Not if you're on a visa :/

[vapid jay]

There is zero incentive for a LOT of human behavior, so I guess to find out we gotta take the people who DO that to therapy.

[turbid bobcat]

I don't mind jumping back. Got this house paid for a while.

[vapid jay]

Would it be easier to get hired for a testing role than a developer role?

[smoky quest]

I mean, if you pull a fast one like that on someone who won't come into the office, they will just leave. Which means you wasted weeks/months to hire and will have to do it again from scratch

[turbid bobcat]

Like, a couple months earning even low balled salary in the UK gives me a long time unemployed here.

[smoky quest]

Indeed. It generally has lower requirements. Although it can still be quite technical.
In terms of using it as a spring board to pure dev, that's a valid path, albeit not always easy

[vapid jay]

Hey, getting a job as a pure dev isn't easy to begin with.

[hearty island]

Rejected by IBM, damnit. Didn’t get past the video interview. They ghosted me. They also took down the role??

some weird move

[vapid jay]

There was no role, they filed a "Ghost job" for tax purposes.

and had people showing up for interviews to legitimize it. . . .SUPER annoying. . .Like god DAM.

[hearty island]

I mean the role was open in February. First posted feb 21st. People were probably ahead of me in the interview cycle.

[vapid jay]

Don't most companies usually not do hiring until May, though?

[turbid bobcat]

Got my first rejection already, visa related

[hearty island]

Hmmm idk about that one

[smoky quest]

not really. They hire at all time.
If someone is switching job in november, they won't wait until May to replace them

[twin trout]

Yo pycharm want licenses any solutions BoYz

[turbid bobcat]

use vim

[peak halo]

this would be a question for #editors-ides, but you can use the community edition for free. and students can get a license for the full edition.
the free edition is suitable for most purposes.

[twin trout]

Where can i get this edition

[peak halo]

look for "pycharm community edition" online.

[twin trout]

Thank man you saved my ass

[vapid jay]

Is there a c++ version of that out in the wild perchance?

[peak halo]

It's not in the wild. It's CLion.

[vapid jay]

Right that, forgot the name of it.

So no community version of CLion. . . .Beggars can't be choosers. u_u

[peak halo]

If anyone has more remarks about IDEs, go to #editors-ides

[hearty island]

So is my approach of doing an MSBA and a masters in finance from Baruch feasible?

Yay or Nay?

[true harness]

why do you want 2 master's degrees

[hearty island]

I don’t have the financial expertise to break into finance

And I think a masters degree would help

[vapid jay]

tbh, a better question to ask is : Why was Jeff Bezos able to break into finance? And why do programmers keep becoming quants?

I think the answer has to do with : They program the trading algorithms and systems for the banks and then pass their section sixes and network their way into quant.

[hearty island]

I don’t wanna do quant

[near ocean]

bezos isnt into finance

and programmers become quants because it pays truck loads

[hearty island]

there is no way I have the mathematical aptitude to be a quant lmao

i didn't do well in my first calculus class

[rose torrent]

Hi guys

I'm a bigenner
I created a discord bot for a game to be linked with game with the game invitations code someone just linked to my bot and now blocking every code that uses the bot or newly linked to bot how can I fix it
I would be glad if you help my server is dying

[turbid bobcat]

Wasn't he in a mathematical field b4 ?

[near ocean]

He was an electrical engineer and cs graduate

[vapid jay]

Engineer and CS grad.

[rose torrent]

Any possible way to fix it

[vapid jay]

He tried Math, then took Quantum Physics, called this one kid who basically thought circles around him and said : "Nah".

[turbid bobcat]

In hindsight, great choice for him

[rose torrent]

He sent me this that showing how he's blocking

[vapid jay]

Oh definitely, he points that out repeatedly.

[true quarry]

How many calories in a cup of tea kept in the fridge and saviour before Christmas?

[near ocean]

Can you stop already

[vapid jay]

Bezos is a smart guy, but it must have been a masterclass in humility to realize this guy is smarter than he and ended up switching out.

[analog sun]

@rose torrent @true quarry this channel is for discussing careers in python

[true quarry]

Oh right

[turbid bobcat]

Life does have these kinds of things, where you are pushed out of the thing you wanted but into something that turns out to make you a lot happier. Tho his case is very extreme

[rose torrent]

Sorry didn't notice i thought it's general discussion

[vapid jay]

I wonder if MMA and martial arts is going to be that for me tbh. But that's a tale for a different day.

[true quarry]

Is anyone here a mechanical engineer?

[analog sun]

#python-discussion is for general discussions, #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval and the others for off topic, #❓｜how-to-get-help for opening a help post

[true quarry]

My cars making a strange burring noise when I reverse it out of the driveway

[turbid bobcat]

Are you being pushed away or into it ?

[analog sun]

This is still off topic for this channel

[turbid bobcat]

I'm not entirely sure that's what mechanical engineering means

[true quarry]

Ford cars

[near ocean]

Petition to ban this guy

[true quarry]

Their old models are called pythons

[analog sun]

!timeout 887729023793385492 Read through the #rules and #code-of-conduct again, and pay special attention to rule 7

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @true quarry until <t:1711483539:f> (1 hour).

[vapid jay]

tbh , Programming has not been very kind to me. I had to repeat classes a lot in school because my baseline knowledge was bad, and mine was the type of school where teachers hated teaching well, and the people who did well already knew the thing. Then there was all the harassment and bullying from people of the RU New Brunswick community discord, and I've developed something of a disdain for tech culture. . .It's like, I fully expect my first job to be full of creepy dudes with a dubious concept of boundaries and consent and invasive managers that I'll have to fight off. Not unlike what I've experienced from the geeky types on discord. Not to mention graduating and not being hirable.

[whole flare]

?

[vapid jay]

I hope I'm wrong, I hope that what the kind professionals here said was true and that people in professional circles don't behave the way they do on Discord, but that fear is still there.

[turbid bobcat]

No I don't think sampling from the internet is ever gonna be representative.

For starter everyone is anon

[vapid jay]

No bad experience is ever representative, but they still happen and when somebody keeps experiencing horrible things, one of the first things people tend to do is to blame the person its happening to. I'm not trying to evoke pity or whine. I just want to really hammer home my fears and what I've dealt with.

[fringe sphinx]

Professional world is not like discord. Nor high school.

[turbid bobcat]

Like I'm not blaming you at all. I'm just saying that people tend to behave a lot worst on the internet. IRL they don't have the protection of being anon - and their livelihoods are at risk in case they do something really bad

[vapid jay]

Welp, all I can do is hope I don't end up at a toxic work environment where my manager behaves like nearly every discord admin I've ever run into for the past . . . .several months?

[fringe sphinx]

Us too?

[vapid jay]

God no.

I only use Discord for programming now anyway, I had too many hobbies in the past.

[turbid bobcat]

Ig like, in the software industry you can always jump ship if you're at a bad place. I get it's hard for entry level, but I reckon even entry level has an easier time than people in other fields

Like you got a degree in software, you're in a very advantageous position compared with someone with no knowledge at all, it's not even close no matter how hard. Cuz I know many of them and I know how hard it is for them.

[vapid jay]

Fair.

I guess for now I'll just buck up and get back to coding.

If nothing else, I want to get hired in may because I REALLY want a pet Chihuahua. 😂

[turbid bobcat]

I once met a Chihuahua, he took offense to that

[turbid bobcat]

But also, I'm not sure I follow

[vapid jay]

To get a pet Chihuahua I need money.

[turbid bobcat]

Ah, I got confused by the specificity of the time frame

[vapid jay]

I'm not interested in a rescue but adopting, and those are expensive.

Oh, the time frame. . . I kind of ran out of savings and have been living with my parents and my parents tend to be . . . . Controlling.

the pet Chihuahua is just my reward to myself for my first degree relevant job.