career-advice

[idle gyro]

Teach MORE

[shut steeple]

guys theres a massive python in me toilet

[craggy wave]

What makes a senior developer "senior" in your opinion? I'm not looking for the textbook definitions you find online; Rather, if you think of the senior developers you've worked with, what kind of skills did they have that made them appear "senior" to you? What do you expect of a "senior" developer?

I'm interested in both the perspective of more junior developers and senior developers, as I suspect that the perspective may be different depending on your on level of "seniority". If you're comfortable with it, include your own level of seniority or years of experience.

[fringe sphinx]

My view is: senior means ‘not junior’. Doesn’t need close supervision, has enough experience where they can figure out whatever they need, etc. Able to lead a (very) small team or coordinate multi-person tasks. Principal engineer is the next step up, where the engineer is thinking primarily about product or system wide issues (rather than features of a senior). I’ve been in industry since around the dot com boom and bust, to date myself.

[fringe sphinx]

Because that sounds fairly textbooky: most of the seniors I can think of were people who were productive pretty darn quick after hiring. They could dive right in, had experience to draw on, and generally were able to contribute to design conversations: like, they could at least say: ‘here’s how i solved this last time’. Juniors just take twice as long to do anything meaningful (or longer): even the best are learning so many new things and have trouble prioritizing/focusing without close supervision.

[brazen island]

Being able to deal with situations based on experience and not just hard / soft skills

I haven't been working for too long but it's now I see there's no price you can put on experience. As you work you're put in many scenarios you do in a certain way and afterwards you reflect on them and decide to do them differently. It's specifically important for stuff you can just never get right the first time. That to me is the difference between junior and seniors.

[proven crest]

Honestly I wrote a long paragraph but for the most part it’s parroting what was already said in more words

It’s down to experience in the role, exposure and understanding of technologies, open mindedness, drive, time management, continued development, ability to efficiently research and problem solve etc. As well as being open and able to help juniors and lead take more of a leadership role in projects, ability to take on more responsibility.

(I’m a junior)

Some of what I listed might not be on a job description for a senior, but it’s certainly what I think is important. Some of them are soft skills that I’m sure you could be a senior without, but not a very good one IMO

[digital fjord]

I am an intern. I think the big difference is picking the right high level approach. When I am doing something, I am often wrong about the entire approach (definitely did not rewrite a single feature 3 times at this point). Whereas with the more senior people, it feels like they sort of have the right idea already and forsee edge cases with a lot less faffing about than I do.

[gritty rivet]

"Senior Developer" is what HR says it is. It's just a title. It can mean completely different things at different companies and there is barely any effort to standardize. Why overthink it?

[craggy wave]

Alright, what if I rephrase the question in "What kind of attributes, attitudes, practices, skills does a more 'senior' developer have in your book?" to decouple it from a specific job title? I don't care about the job title itself, but I do care about what people find important in what they consider to be "more senior" developers (for the lack of a better word for "senior").

[elder forge]

There is interesting work on chess players that mirror what you say here.
Novice players tend to evaluate more potential moves, while experienced players consider fewer moves, but explore them to a greater depth.

[fringe sphinx]

Well said. I was going to say something about confidence... confidence that comes from experience... but this confidence is also from knowing what things are worth considering/etc. For example, in pydis, you often see lengthy pedantic arguments over microoptimizations: these are not discussions I have with senior engineers.

by confidence, I don't mean hubris or arrogance... I just mean: knowing that 1. you can solve a problem. 2. that there's maybe 2-3 options worth considering, not 20. 3. being able to identify quickly the part of the problem that matters.

[craggy wave]

All very interesting points so far. I'll add my own thoughts a bit later, once I get home, as I didn't want to push the answers in a specific direction right from the start.

I've been thinking a lot about coaching developers and teams lately, and I've seen some patterns in the development of individuals that are typically not captured in formal title descriptions

[true harness]

they also have better intuition in picking candidate moves that "look good"

[fringe sphinx]

senior engineer traits are prob more like a spider/radar graph, (ignore the labels, just conceptually):

Like, I'm not sure there's any single set of traits that defines "senior". Sometimes it's just experience. Sometimes it's specialization. Sometimes it's just damn good people skills.

[elder forge]

How about pay grade 😆

[fringe sphinx]

I think original question was not pay grade related... it wasn't : 'how do companies define their salary tiers', I read the q as: "what traits do you think of when you think of a senior engineer?'

[digital fjord]

Another angle I could see could be trust from their superiors and juniors that they can find the right solution to a given problem.

Yet another angle could just simply be that a senior engineer only has peers, no further seniors. But that feels wrong.

[brazen island]

I'd say that jobs make the mistake that they discern juniors and seniors from technical competences when imho it's more about life/job experience

[tacit cape]

depending on what you are building, technical competence/experience can be extremely important

[brazen island]

You can be very early in your career and have way better technical competences than someone 20 years in, that's very possible especially since early on you still have the energy to chase the SoTA but that doesn't make you better necessarily

[tacit cape]

I have experienced the opposite in my career, people without technical competences promoted to high positions due to seniority alone.

I don't think technical competence alone should be the deciding factor, but I do believe it should be one of the factors.

[fringe sphinx]

lol, I had this exact thing happen to me early/mid career. I was promoted to director level, maanging a team of ~20, but HR wouldn't give me the title because I was too young. My predecessor and successor were directors, but literally HR gave me an alternative title that made no sense.

[brazen island]

Judging on the basis of seniority is vague because you can have a 20 year career and not reflect on your actions but have a 5 year one and do that, I'd prefer the latter. Also, it has to do with how you view cause and effect. Your specific actions didn't result in 1 specific outcome, there's a whole load of confounders.

You'd have to judge on a case by case basis, also depends on the type of environment etc.

[elder forge]

As you say, we have to differentiate between the colloquial term 'senior', and the job tilte, 'senior ...'.
There was a recent discussion in #pedagogy about what makes someone an expert, which I think somehow mirrors what we are discussing here.
Interesting, that discussion was started by someone who was a novice, while the discussion here is started by someone thinking about mentoring.

To answer the original question, I work in academia, and my impression of a senior is someone who can deliver a complete or almost-complete product/feature/thing with minimal guidance.
In academia I am surrounded by domain experts (mostly not programming experts), and if I ask someone I consider senior to complete a task I expect it to be ready for feedback ahead of the deadline, and when I give feedback to the task I expect to have a discussion about the feedback (I do not expect them to blindly accept my viewpoint). I also expect them to know their own limitations, so that if I give them a task they do not have the domain expertise to complete, I expect them to tell me so immediately.
Comparatively, I expect a junior to be somewhat unaware of their own limitations. I.e. they are not always able to tell the quality of their own work, and can therefore not tell me immediately if they have the expertise to complete the task at hand. However, by attempting to complete the task they will come to know themselves, and either expand their base of skills, or learn their own limitations.

[kindred thistle]

Hi guys

[steel kindle]

Companies should be able to tell you

At my company we have a spreadsheet listing the expectations for each individual role

[fringe sphinx]

Sebastiaan's question wasn't about job descriptions or formal definitions, it was (in my translation): What do we see as distinguishing a senior from a junior engineer? (not formally, but informally)

[steel kindle]

I see

[random pagoda]

u sure it is not u, lol

[gaunt dagger]

Hi there 👋 While running a script with pyrogram, i replaced the original file with another one by mistake without having any backup.
Script is still running with python3.8
Any idea how I can find a .py or .pyc file of it?

[buoyant seal]

u should use git 😊 then operation to restore file is easy as git checkout -- file

or at least student method => datetimed zip archives 😅

[gaunt dagger]

The script is written by me tho

[buoyant seal]

git is exactly used to backup your own scripts

[buoyant seal]

Head First recently released book about Git. it should be brain dead easy to learn now.
Best brain friendly learning books!

[gaunt dagger]

That's the prob 😭 didn't get any backup

[buoyant seal]

😉 if u are at windows, probably your shadow copy could be having file
some kind of shadow copy viewer is needed to traverse it

[gaunt dagger]

It's on Linux

[buoyant seal]

embarasing, but not knowing answer for that despite being linux user in everyday life :/ i have an excuse in using less years of my life linux than windows though and just using git

[gaunt dagger]

It hasn't happened before tho shit hit the fan this time 🤣 thank u tho 🙏

[lucid canopy]

Unmuting this channel per @fringe sphinx's advice. Cheers all!

Does anyone have any books that cover good python practices for things like using ABC and other more "far out" elements of the std library. Preferably at the graduate or advanced professional level. I've been writing python code for about a year exclusively at this point but I feel like I still need to refine my practices.

Or blogs / videos at the advanced level similar to Jason Turner's C++ weekly for those of you coming from CPP land

[true harness]

a common recommendation for "intermediate -> advanced" is fluent python

[lucid canopy]

Thanks I will add that to my list.

[fringe sphinx]

My goto source are conference videos. There’s some great talks at PyCon and Europython

[lucid canopy]

Thanks. They sound like my days at CPP con. So many great talks by advanced experts. Do you have any specific speakers or playlists you reccomend?

[fringe sphinx]

I’ll post some later today

Oh and nedbat’s blog is also a national treasure

[buoyant seal]

Try mypy in strict mode to use with it. Without it ABC and typing.Protocol do not make a lot of sense because aren't enforced properly in rapid feedback way without code running. Pydantic for the win as DTO.
Otherwise, consider reading actually book about Architecture instead of python specific books
Or book like Object Oriented Python if this one is too early

For python to use this stuff, u could be needing usually just to read typing docs

[lucid canopy]

Totally agree here. I've been doing a lot of work on type enforcement lately. Today is the first time I'm defining an abstract class interface so just looking for some tooling stuff around that.

We use pyright and ruff for type checking and bp enforcement, do you know how to enable better ABC checking with those tools?

[sick warren]

Hello

[buoyant seal]

Not used pyright, sorry. If it is present there, I am confident it should get enabled with pyright strict mode probably though. Simple switch supposedly

Otherwise may be not having abc support in full capacity, but u could trick it with casting on assignment to abc type var perhaps

[lucid canopy]

Thanks I'll search for it. Also thank you for the book reccomendation. It's probably worth it for me to read, but fortunately I have some better software architects that I work with on my main projects that handle larger architectural problems.

Something that would definitely help me but also not something closely related to my responsibilities.

[stone bridge]

hello does anyone knows DISCORD.PY?

[fringe sphinx]

Wrong channel, try #discord-bots or #python-discussion

[stone bridge]

THANK YOU

[errant thicket]

Does anyone do any side hustles with code and could help me find a niche ?

Hey could anyone help me find a side hustle ? For code

[lucid canopy]

The best side hussles usually come from another hobby or skill that you have an interest or expertise in. For example I work on implementing various colour science and image processing related codes. It's a great side hustle. But unless you are interested in and develop some knowledge base in that domain, you can't really just get started.

I have another friend who's interested in hacking together led circuits and does some side hustle stuff related to that. What are you interested in?

[dreamy spade]

I’m off my 3 month probation

[smoky quest]

looking back over your 3 months, have you learned anything interesting about yourself or the job?

[dreamy spade]

Yes

[normal vale]

In my AI club - should I not share my code if I've spent 50 hours on it and no teammate has helped with it, even slightly? I don't care if people free-load off of it if there was no context, but if it looks worse if I did this extensive project in AI club than if I do it solo, I want to keep it proprietary. Or if I eventually claim it as my own and someone googles it and finds the AI club repo.

Just don't know if it's a dick move or if it's what most people would do

[steel kindle]

I am confused why you wouldn't want to share it?

well, I get why, just not sure what you get out of it

[normal vale]

I don't mind for any emotional reason. Just don't know if projects get looked up, or if doing the project solo looks better/worse. I'm going to a good college and will be applying to top-level jobs so I'm not aware of the precident.

I have it on my resume as "lead project selection and model design etc." which does look nice and shows teamwork. So maybe it's just better to get freeloaded off of.

[steel kindle]

Doing stuff with groups is far more valuable than solo

[normal vale]

That's the feeling I get

[steel kindle]

far, the solo work honestly doesn't mean a ton

[steel kindle]

high paying companies care mostly about your ability to contribute as a team member

although I also wouldn't lie about it, if it's an interesting project they're going to question you about it

[normal vale]

I think I just claim, as is fair, that I wrote most of the code because I was the most experienced in the group. People helped write specific sections, point out bugs, help with data validation, etc.

It's the AI club at the regular college and I'm at the graduate college so it makes sense.

Thanks Dylan 🙂

[steel kindle]

I'd be really careful how you phrase that

if it sounds like you did most of the work because you didn't believe the other could, a lot of companies are just going to reject you on that

[smoky quest]

These get lumped into attention seeking behaviors and can get a bad look.
Anyone can claim some random feat for the same project:

• I wrote the most code
• I wrote the code the most impactful
• I wrote the code that is used the most
• I wrote the code still in use today
• I wrote the code with the least amount of bugs
• I helped all the people above write their code

If you share something, share a git repo. That will be simple and more factual.
If you don't share the repo, that's fine too. Either way, you ought to be able to deep dive in at least your parts

[normal vale]

I'm unfamiliar with how to claim value in the coding world where everything is written into stone and can be fact-checked harder. How do you express how much work you did on a project? Do you just claim to be a (strong) part of the project, and then answer questions as asked? If you answer them, you can probably back it up if hired?

[steel kindle]

why talk about how much work you did, or how you were better than someone else? just talk about the project

[normal vale]

Sure

In the world I come from, working my way up at a big company as a manager, you exclusively claim how you helped with a project. You say I did this, that, etc. Interviewers don't care about talking about stuff you didn't do over there. But I can see how that could be arbitrary and in an intellectual world that isn't important.

Especially on resumes. You say things like "lead this" or "changed this metric".

you would never say "this metric changed during the time I was at the company", to exaggerate

[steel kindle]

are you a manager at a large company now?

[normal vale]

I quit to get my masters

[steel kindle]

It's not really exaggeration, there's just no need to compare the quality/amount of work you did to others, generally speaking. It's a red flag that somebody won't be a good team member.

[smoky quest]

No one will care about how much or little you contributed.
People will care instead about your demonstrated skills in that project

It doesn't prevent your demonstrated skills to have had an outsized impact 😉

[normal vale]

That makes sense, you had some skill that made the project exciting and there's some reason why you wanted to do it. Doing the club project was an opportunity for you to hone that skill, or maybe in a professional setting that there was some need for your skills, and you accomplished x with it and that made the project work in some way.

Leave it to the interviewer to decide if there was an outsized impact

[smoky quest]

I wouldn't leave it to the interviewer to decide. That leaves room for their interpretation.
I would suggest to contextualize. For instance you may demonstrate leadership, collaboration and communication skills by leading and coordinating folks in your project.

[errant jacinth]

Their stack isn't very complicated and I'm familiar with most of it, and they also specified that they don't expect somebody that doesn't know everything about it, just somebody who can learn

I think I can do it with enough pressure so hey

[fathom drift]

GCP
GPT

[errant thicket]

wow thanks i have interest in basketball games like data and basketball in general could i code as sports is my niche ?

[pliant turret]

anyone in here have decent knowledge and wanna make a few bucks? need something done!

[grave patio]

Hi everyone, I'm a front end guy, 2-3 years of experience with react. One of my mentors suggested that I should get into backend to become fullstack and ML because it will help for sure with jobs and money.

[muted bridge]

how long would you say it takes to learn the pandas library?

[vapid jay]

Tbh it really depends on how good you are at it and the experience you have with similar libraries. I would say teaching yourself pandas is worth it

Rawr

[muted bridge]

zero experience with anything like it, so not really sure

[vapid jay]

Mhm, I just know the basics as hobbyist. that really wasnt all too complicated.

[fair glade]

тут есть русские?

[fringe sphinx]

I don’t think anyone ‘learns the Pandas library’ in one pass. You use it for a little project, then use additional features as needed. Kaggle.com/learn has a nice intro to Pandas

[neon parrot]

Hey everyone, I'm pretty new here but I've been lurking for a while. Currently learning lots of basics on Python and built a very basic project combining google sheets and visualizing the data via Pandas, matplotlib and then finally using Streamlit. I managed to host this on AWS via an EC2 instance for the rest of my team to view.

Apologies for the long winded intro but I'm currently in finance but wanted to move more into programming and perhaps cloud but really wanted to know what fields or career paths would be preferable for someone with my background, I don't necessarily want to lose finance but would like to specialize more in programming. The automation of tasks has been pretty useful and fun but definitely looking to build a solid level of experience to make but really wanted to know if there was anything out there I perhaps wasn't aware of (which I'm sure there is).

[gritty rivet]

what fields or career paths would be preferable for someone with my background

What's preferable will primarily have to be defined by you

I would simply say to study the job market and see what exists, figure out where you might want to be next, what skills you're missing to get there, and build stuff that will get you there

[grizzled crag]

I am new here, I want an interactive and fun way to learn python in a month as I get bored easily so I need to set a goal, is there any project I can participate on it while learning so I can learn by doing ?

[zenith light]

I also wonder if this is the wrong approach to "learning" wrt. libraries. The point of a library is to solve a problem, you learn the basics to get some momentum but the majority of learning is by trial and error and realising for most use cases you only need a very surface level understanding of the library

[neon parrot]

Thank you, I'm really enjoying cloud at the moment but love building things on python. I've seen roles for cloud finance manager or even aspects of solutions architect that seem to focus on utilizing cloud platforms in the most cost efficient way for a business. These roles may still have a some programming as I will need to analyze the data on spends and usage.

I will do more work and study the market. I just don't want to learn everything and become a non specialist if that makes any sense.

[zenith light]

I would plug the question "Give me some python projects which are good for beginners" into GPT and then Google Search how to build it (feeling there'll be a tutorial) e.g. I get Hangman Game, To Do List, Password Generator, Simple Web Scraper. You can then share those apps with friends and get them to stress test them

[golden parrot]

Hi All,
I’m interested in learning python can any one please suggest the right path.

[grizzled crag]

I mean I do want to be part of a team not to be alone to avoide being distracted

[grizzled crag]

what is your goal for learning ? get a job in which field ?

[zenith light]

I'd say start with wanting to achieve something e.g. a simple todo app or a small web scraper and then get progressively more complicated. Learning Python for the sake of it is unlikely to keep you motivated in the long-term

[golden parrot]

Mostly to automate excel dashboard and Google sheet dashboard

[buoyant seal]

I can admit that we have here russian language speaking people 😛
(Я могу признать что здесь есть русско говорящие люди.)

[neon parrot]

I find learning building relatable projects is often quite helpful as reading through some of the principal concepts within Python.

[buoyant seal]

if u are person with no higher education, then recommending this book
The most Brain-Friendly Guide
Do practice parts. They matter. No practice = no learning

[fringe sphinx]

!kindling has a lot of ideas. #python-discussion is probably a better place to ask this question, though.

[inner wren]

Kindling Projects

The Kindling projects page on Ned Batchelder's website contains a list of projects and ideas programmers can tackle to build their skills and knowledge.

[golden parrot]

Thank you all let me check

[fringe sphinx]

https://inventwithpython.com/pythongently/ is also pretty good, as each task is successively harder.

[hearty island]

this may be a dumb question, but here it goes: if a job is no longer open, but says you're under review, does it mean they already hired someone?

[fringe sphinx]

Company specific, tells you nothing. Might mean they have enough resumes and aren’t screening more.

Recruiting and hr systems are two different worlds. You can have open job req’s that aren’t posted, you have have jobs filled but still have the job posted on recruiting site(s), etc.

[gritty rivet]

If you're not exactly sure yet where you want to specialize, it's ok to explore and specialize later. And just because you learn something doesn't mean you need to emphasize it on every resume you send out

But basically everything you're talking about fits under the broad heading of data engineering. So I would not necessarily be worried that you are going in different directions at once

[neon parrot]

Thanks, that's actually quite reassuring. There's so much to learn it often feels like there are multiple never ending rabbit holes. Genuinely love it though as overall it feels like there's an answer to any problem providing you have the patience to try to find it.

[elder forge]

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this

[vapid jay]

https://discord.com/events/1134355382731554897/1169249551710965862

[grizzled crag]

Thanks it helps me a lot with not feeling bored, it contains list of fun an interactive ways to learn, I post the question here I just got rejected from python challenge for SRE position at booking, but you are right I will redirect my question to python discussion, thanks again

[atomic yarrow]

Does anyone knows from where can I learn about successful agencies/startups that hire developers for providing services to the clients? For example case studies

[white relic]

!rule 9 recruitment is not allowed here, as the channel description also notes

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[peak halo]

@midnight karma your message has been removed, for the reason given

[tawdry rose]

Well I have my own business I do ecommerce. I picked up coding as hobby but now I just felt in love

That make sense

[chilly barn]

Hey, just wanna try my luck here. I am looking for an abroad internship in software/ web dev. I am from germany and we got the chance to do a 3 week internship at the start of next year. I have good experience and this is not my first internship. Please hit me up if you can offer a position thats unpaid as I am just looking to contribute to a nice team. I prefer something northern but as long as the country is in the EU, I am up for it. My portfolio https://niklasdev.me/

[smoky quest]

!rule 6

[inner wren]

Rules

6. Do not post unapproved advertising.

[chilly barn]

thats not an ad imo

[dreamy spade]

Is it easy for you guys to explain the technical problems and solutions to your co-workers that are not in your tech team?

[deft herald]

I would chill with the pings. Especially since this channel is for career discussion

buddy...

[true harness]

no

[peak halo]

Please don't ping a bunch of people. There's an explanation in #voice-verification

[leaden jasper]

It's not easy, but it gets easier. It's a skill you have to build up. It is easy to get too lost in the technical weeds

[deft herald]

I believe the point of the rule is to engage in actual discussion. Not to spam as many messages as you can

[smoky quest]

Please hit me up if you can offer a position thats unpaid as I am just looking to contribute to a nice team

<@&831776746206265384> spam

[chilly barn]

no thought of profit, still disagree with that being an ad

[noble fox]

i saw a thing about google cybersec certifications. how good/useful is that certification to have on my cv/resume?

im looking into getting a few certifications that'll help me and its the first one i saw so any help on the subject would be appreciated

[crisp stream]

!rule 9 We're not a recruitment board

[inner wren]

Rules

9. Do not offer or ask for paid work of any kind.

[cobalt moat]

How possible is 24 credit hours, an internship and research at the same time

How many hours a week is research?

[fringe sphinx]

That’s 6 classes?

[cobalt moat]

Yes

[fringe sphinx]

And none of them are basket weaving?

[cobalt moat]

No all cs and math

But programming is kinda like basket weaving

[true harness]

it depends on the courses of course. the "recommended" is 2 hours outside of lecture for each hour in lecture, so you're looking at 24 + 48 hours + however many internship and research is. obviously some classes will be far less time consuming, so it just depends

[cobalt moat]

I got internship and research offer

[fringe sphinx]

Personally I’d back off the courses and double down on the internship. But that’s me. I wasn’t that great a student. Ymmv

[cobalt moat]

Double down the internship?

[fringe sphinx]

Like, make more time for it. Do a good job with it. Etc.

[cobalt moat]

I still need to get the classes done

What does a background check find? Are they gonna be able to find my discord and social media group chats? If so I’m going to jail

[leaden jasper]

Background checks don't give the organization access to your private conversations or private accounts. They generally check where you've previously lived, your previous workplaces, any interactions with the law, public social media stuff. That sort of thing.

[gritty rivet]

It really depends on the company. As far as social media accounts go, as long as questionable things aren't publicly shared and attached to your real name you're probably fine.

[cobalt moat]

What are they looking for in those places as reasons to fail the background check

[leaden jasper]

If you are who you say you are, that you didn't lie about anything or grossly misrepresent something about yourself, that you won't pose an issue if you are hired. Stuff along those lines

[wheat hatch]

Depending on where you live they can also check police records, mostly looking for stuff like if you've been arrested doing crimes and such.

And by crimes I mean stuff like running drugs and such, not speeding tickets and the like

[fringe sphinx]

In the Us, background check authorizations are primarily for criminal background checks. Social media stuff can be researched without authorization or your knowledge anyway. Reference checks are separate, as well

[cobalt moat]

I’ll be fine

[fringe sphinx]

For my company, we would do criminal background checks because of the nature of our customers

Usually you’ll sign an authorization form, which will explain what you’re approving

[cobalt moat]

The place I’m going to work for does investment stuff so it looks like what they cared about on all the papers I signed was just making sure I haven’t committed like stock fraud

[fringe sphinx]

Yah. That said; be professional and keep your social media clean and separate

[gritty rivet]

They may check your credit reports, but you would have to be a pretty major scofflaw for it to be a problem

[open ivy]

I have over a decade of programming expirence (even a little C++ and assembly). But it's all informal. This makes my resume undersell me (I put my projects on the resume, but they really want "real" job expirence).

[vital wyvern]

I hope Scofflaw doesn't appear on my credit reports.

[open ivy]

Is anyone else in that situation?

[buoyant seal]

convinicingly describe your projects like you are advertising selling product and link their code and instructions/docs for usage. If it is anything good, chances it will be appreciated by devs if gets passed first HR screening

practice matter 😊 (and anything that allows to verify pressence of this practice level)

[open ivy]

It's hard to get to the interview in the first place (800 resumes didn't do it). Maybe you have a better way of networking than me?

[buoyant seal]

if u have that hard time, then just anonymize your resume and send to here. people will review and advise smth to optimize

[open ivy]

What file format should I send?

[true harness]

screenshot

[open ivy]

Lol I am an idiot!

Here it is

[buoyant seal]

Some people could be not appreciating "Data anal" phrasing btw, not the best shortening

[buoyant seal]

what did u do between Summer 2021 to current time? (expect this question to appear in any interview if they saw this resume)

[buoyant seal]

Anyway the problem i see with this resume, that Matlab and Flash aren't tech in use.
C++ can't be mastered in a single project
Python presence is kind of low as well, but nice that it is present
At the same time AWS certs (reall cool)

I try to quantify you as data scientist. But you lack wielding/showing something more modern usable for that in tech (according to this resume). I wish to see more python projects in data science for that. (or whatever modern stuff data scientists use today, i heard about Scala and R too)
There is a promise to enchance data scientist/machine learning further with data engineering, because i see AWS. but i don't see any data engineering stack

Hiring as infrastructure guy because u have AWS? too much data scientist stuff in resume, probably u would not wish it.
Hiring as backend dev? not a single tech related to it and again all stuff from data scientist/machine learning department.

So... i try to quantify you once again as potential Data scientist or Data engineer (Data scientism + AWS really strike me towards this direction), but i am missing better skills in Python for data science (or other common DS language, Scala?Java?R? and etc. Check some hiring web site what is in use for data engineers) and i am missing Python Or Java or any other common language for data engineering to quantify you towards this direction.
TLDR. you are close to becoming junior Data scientist / Machine Learning / Data engineering person, but missing tech stack for any of those posiitions
And this is additionally challenged with question what did u do between Summer 2021 to current time.

[buoyant seal]

i suspect resume could be filtered pretty much based on those missing keywords for additional tech fluff

[deft herald]

Quick antecdote: At my old job there was an internal acronym ZAP and a function named ZapAnal() and it made me laugh every day

[pseudo dust]

Would anyone be willing to review this cover letter and give me some feedback? I'm looking to pivot into a data engineering or analytics role, after several years in technology leadership. I haven't been a hands-on developer for many years but still enjoy it and want to get back to it. I know a lot of potential employers will think it strange that I'm interested in going back to an individual contributor, so I'm trying to use the cover letter to explain this. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[open ivy]

Applications, side projects, etc. Also not the best mental health until fall 2022.

The resume gap feedback loop on the surface sounds disparaging. But big tech is increasingly evil, so the more vicious cycles prevent people from working for the Evil Empire the better. At least thats my consolation prize.

[open ivy]

1. It's on the long side. Could you make one 1/2 the length and randomize which one you send out (so that you can figure out whether it is in fact actually too long).

2. There is a fair amount of factual information as if it is a resume written in prose.
   "At proClarity Analytics, a startup focused on.... test data sources"
   This sounds like a line from the resume. The cover letter is a chance to give "softer" information, i.e. thoughs and feelings. Such as this:
   "I got comfortable with the Microsoft SQL stack and it struck me how powerful data analysis was in accomplishing a goal."
   (change the exact words).

[buoyant seal]

Ergh. then u need to show those projects as additional arguments to your qualifications then
Otherwise... ask yourself. Why they should choose you, over fresh graduates with no mental health challenges?
You need to standout why u need to be chosen. Your resume is advertisement to sell yourself. It needs to be convincing. (+u could benefit greatly with learning actually tech for any position u qualify for. at least the most generic one)

[open ivy]

Beef up the projects side, maybe make demos for the interview, and cut out some of the academic details such as Flash?

[buoyant seal]

Beef up the projects side, with tech most common related to data engineering/data scientism/machine learning (whatever u choose)
Python/Java/Scala/for all positions look like good options.
Demos and fallbacks to usage of videos/screenshots is great idea too. Good projects need to have good presentation explaning what they are, what for, and how to use them. Also just nice to have nice presentability to Github projects...

...At this note i can insert self adverstiment hehe. I made project that helps to make Github projects looking more professional. i named it autogit
It helps to enforce your commits following Git Conventional Commits standard via GIt hook, forcing you to write better ones. Suggests next semantic version and generates tags and changelogs for your releases (based on parsed Git conventional formmated commits from you git repo)
You can observe its example of working for itself in its releases hehe
Due to seeing quick feedback of generated changelogs, it helps you to write better commits in result again too.
the tool was made without dependencies for 95%+ of its functionality to function, and CI friendly in general.

=
Otherwise nice to utilize mkdocs as a default documenting tool. Helping yourself with mermaid.js diagrams.
Or whatever u will choose to document and present projects better

[open ivy]

I agree that side-projects are very important, and emphasizing them more seems like a good idea. I've also heard the opposite, that "no one cares" about side projects. But the other side hasn't made a convincing argument AT ALL. Side projects (and certifications, in a different way!) are a way to build real skills and a "proof of passion". As well as good for mental health (which can hit almost anyone, espically during job applications!).

[buoyant seal]

https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling.html
https://codingchallenges.fyi/challenges/challenge-json-parser
there is plenty of ideas to do for projects 😉 you would benefit more with doing projects related actually to data science/machine learning/or data engineering though

[buoyant seal]

I've also heard the opposite, that "no one cares" about side projects
people care after u reached tech interview level.
Projects can be very highly likely checked after interview to make final decisions.
Projects can be checked to consider if person needs to be invited to interview as well.
TLDR: as long as it reached dev level, it becomes to matter

[pallid ferry]

Is there a reason why people write their resumes in Latex and not in MS word or Google docs ?

[smoky quest]

They like LaTeX. A resume could be written with any tool of your choosing

[true harness]

they're nerds

[buoyant seal]

LaTeX is a dev way writing as a code. Git versioned, comfortable for long term maintanance. Not tied to microsoft.
Consider it a fetish for having everything as a code.
I don't even have MS word since i use Linux. Google Docs is also unreliable to store things, can be wiped eventually.
MS word and google docs aren't git friendly option. Because not possible to see git diff between changes line by line.
LaTeX is capable to generate in feature rich way PDF end result we need for resume

[pallid ferry]

Fair enough 🙂

[true harness]

(but, in my unbiased opinion, latex makes you way cooler and triples (at least) your chance of being interviewed)

[pallid ferry]

I actually lost the Latex code to my resume 🤣

[pallid ferry]

They ask for it as a .pdf, so maybe they wouldn't even know you wrote it in Latex

[smoky quest]

I use Libreoffice for my resume 🕶️

[buoyant seal]

😛 someone needs to learn git. i have most important to me documents as git repo stored at Main PC, pulled as additional backup at laptop
and pushed to Github and Gitlab for additional high availability.
Everything is encrypted with git-crypt for security. I am confident i will have survived at least one copy of my personal stuff for the next... dozen of years. hopefully. 4 backups is enough to ensure that i think (every git repo instance is a fully fledged backup of itself, so easy to have desentralized backups)

[open ivy]

I personally don't use Latex, it's overkill. Word makes it easy to have a good enough style, and content matters more in my opionion (Darkwind pointed out flaws in my resume that make sense and that I overlooked).

[pallid ferry]

You're absolutely right. I never had that idea about pushing it to git. Thanks

[pallid ferry]

that means you're not a nerd 😛

[true harness]

no no, latex is sufficient for being a nerd, it is not necessary

[peak halo]

\item I fucking love latex
\item I want to fucking write everything in latex

[pine sleet]

is this a plea for help

[buoyant seal]

blink 3 times if LaTeX keeps you hostage 😅

[pseudo dust]

Great feedback, thank you. I can simplify the wording and make it less like a resume. And yes, I can also randomize a short and long version to see if I get more responses on one.

[gritty rivet]

If a person can tell by looking that your resume is done in LaTeX, you're doing it wrong... That default font is so fugly, like a buzzsaw on the eyes

[true harness]

computer modern is so good 😦. but I don't use it for my resume lol

[kindred rock]

What kind of salary can a person expect with 8 months of experience?
Is it feasible to find a remote job for a junior in another country?

Backend dev.

[smoky quest]

It depends on your background, education, demands, etc.

When it comes to working remotely in another country as a junior, it's possible, sure. It may not necessarily be plausible.
Note also that you would be paid based on the salaries around your location, not the company's HQ

[kindred rock]

Currenly I'm in 2nd world country and making 720 dollars a month (~160 hours).
I have bachelors in electronics, but it's from random trash university in Russia where the only thing required to get the degree is visiting the classes.

8 months of...
Mostly backend dev, but on random startup projects.
Had little experience of team work.
Worked with AWS. Mostly EC2.
Had to also do the frontend and deploy.

[smoky quest]

are you currently in Russia?

[kindred rock]

I left it, because... Well. Politics and I support Ukraine.

Currently in Armenia.
720 dollars is well enough to live here.

[smoky quest]

got it. That would have been a problem.

[kindred rock]

But I'm curious if I can do better and if it's possible to find the job in another country.

I feel like companies only mess with foreigners only if they are seniors or better.

[smoky quest]

anyone hiring you remotely will try to pay you Armenian wages. So while there are always exceptions, you should expect people to offer you a salary for someone with 8 months of experience located in Armenia

[smoky quest]

That is true. Junior require a lot more attention and mentorship. That is more difficult and demanding when that person is remote

[kindred rock]

I don't mind moving tho.
Even if I have to pay the initial rent and plane tickets.

[harsh river]

it'll take much more than that, for example, a work visa.

[kindred rock]

Yeah. I can't acquire that without the company help.
I think.

Well. Interesting that in Russia they offer me salaries of middle devs.
Guess they lack IT specialists right now.

[buoyant seal]

as another russian (which suddenly decided to immigrate out of country too) i can say, that companies hire fine if you reached middle+ level for sure, but even middle- is hirable too.
plenty of countries have.... a lot of russian outsourcing companies migrated. They are fine to hire Russian devs as long as their English is strong enough (B2 is good), and the mentioned skill level
P.S. i participated in hiring procedures too, so pretty... able to evaluate stuff regarding that

[jagged oak]

Hello there, do you guys know of any website / platform to shoutout to potential employees? Because I am about to establish my first company in the upcoming months and need to recruit a team for the time the money comes flowing in from venture capital efforts.

My thoughts so far are:

1. Create a Instagram account and do a shoutout there, that I am currently on the lookout for devs for the upcoming months
2. Utilizing LinkedIn and Upwork and the like, to reach out personally to some individuals and creating my team
3. Somewhere else?

[buoyant seal]

Also, i am backend dev / DevOps engineer working with AWS, so could give a check to stuff related to that in your resume and etc

[kindred rock]

I think my English is about C1.
(Not like I actually tested it tho)

[gaunt flame]

how can i add status in my discord bot?

[kindred rock]

Currently in proccess of learning German.

[jagged oak]

You can get an official certificate for free. I think oxford online tests your english. Look it up, and do the test, is maybe around 30-45 minutes. I am a native german speaker, but I do not know where you can test it for free here. But I was once teaching german and english while studying.

[kindred rock]

I honestly don't see a purpose for this.
Like... You just talk to a person and you know immediately their level.

Although I guess big companies really care about documents and stuff.

[buoyant seal]

in general indeed not needed. but nice to have proof eventually. (not really needed for Job in body shop i think)
Also immigrating to some countries like Canada, u need to pass English exam, and generic IELTS can be one of a choices for that

[jagged oak]

If you register on a platform to get recruited or the like, you can provide the proof as a side note, it is barely the focus, but it is an advantage over those who struggle with english, as some recruiters come to you only if you have a certificate.

[jagged oak]

Anyone?

[buoyant seal]

during next job search i am going to check at least LinkedIn and Indeed web sites

sure. What can be interview for coding job without coding questions 😅

[mortal wedge]

I don't want to discourage you from this in any way, but you should be prepared with the knowledge that a lot of companies will opt to not sponsor you or if they would be willing to you'll have to considerably outperform other candidates whom they wouldn't need to sponsor.

Since it's a nonzero amount of money/effort to sponsor someone.

[buoyant seal]

middle dev salary in Russia and out of Russia is considerably different btw

[kindred rock]

Yeah, but still. Kinda suprising that they consider me as so.
Guess they lack people.

They were like "Yeah, 100k, remote, any time you want".

[buoyant seal]

that's Junior salary. (towards Strong Junior side salary for Russia)

[kindred rock]

On hh junior positions are usually about 50-60.
Depends on the city, I guess, and company.

Doesn't really matter tho for me.

[buoyant seal]

That's around average Junior salary year. 100k as i said is more Strong Junior or average Junior salary for company that is working onto foreign market (or at least that before the... febraury)

[kindred rock]

Well.
Not gonna work for Russia, but would be happy to get some interview experience.

They tend to be more funny and interesting for not beginner positions.

[pallid ferry]

Do Uni projects count as Experience in a resume ?

[peak halo]

projects that were assignments for courses, or projects associated with extracurriculars?

[smoky quest]

They would count as "projects" but not as "professional experience"

[tawdry sable]

I missed google step, by a day but the american google step is still going on do you think i could apply there and hten ask them to switch me to the UK

[vital wyvern]

I'm not sure what a Google step is, but if it's an application window or something; those segmentations exist for a reason. While it's good to stand out in job applications, standing out for something that could be misconstrued as a reading comprehension issue is often not.

[pallid ferry]

I listed them under "Academic Projects" 🙂

[muted bridge]

Should I write a cover letter?

[tardy vigil]

Hello

I want to know that how can I become a graphic designer

[turbid bobcat]

Should I advertise the need for visa sponsorship on my linkedin ? Or should I keep it for the initial communication (cover letter, or when responding to recruiter) ?

[gritty rivet]

Depends on the job listing. Generally not worth the effort anymore unless you really want the job

[gritty rivet]

You should ask a graphic designer. I doubt we have any in here since this is a Python server. You could try LinkedIn.

[gritty rivet]

If your resume clearly indicates what country you are in, that's probably enough of a signal to ensure that nobody wastes your time

[turbid bobcat]

My worry is that I've changed my location on LinkedIn so that my profile gets advertised to local companies, I'm trying to see how I can go about specifying my location and need for visa sponsorship.

But I'll probably just leave it on the description. And on the CV.

[dull belfry]

hi whats the roadmap of becoming a ethical hecker

i know some python and been reading this book on networking basics idk a clear roadmap

[tardy vigil]

Hiii

I just wanna know that linkedin can offer me some project to make at some cost like an part time job or work from home

Some work related to poster or logo designing ....or maybe a video editing

[vapid jay]

Its possible if youre really good at what youre doing and have a top notch portfolio

anyway, this is a python server. Not a graphic design one ;)

[hearty island]

ok, my video interview for the big healthcare company i applied to is still under review

[gritty rivet]

It is generally said that cybersecurirty is not an entry level field. Do you have a degree? What kind of experience?

[tardy vigil]

And what if someone is beginner at his/her work

[vapid jay]

You will get outcompeted by 13 year old kids who sell their gigs for a steal price.

[white relic]

then they're probably going to be taking jobs far cheaper than they would be able to command as an experienced professional
this is pretty true regardless of field

[vapid jay]

Used to be that 13 year old 5 years ago now B)

[white relic]

There's no shame in starting small

But it's important to have realistic expectations about it

[tardy vigil]

@white relic I think you are right

But I need help because I'm not able to find work

[hearty island]

9th rejection this week, but we move on. figured it's only normal considering i got 2 interviews this week

god's way of interest

[vapid jay]

May I ask how old you are // what type of education(s) you have completed?

[gritty rivet]

If you're sending out lots of resumes and getting zero calllbacks, then you probably need to improve your resume. You could send anonymized screenshots to this channel if you like.

[hearty island]

is it just me or does anyone else listen to music when applying to jobs

[buoyant seal]

i depend on music to stay concentrated or even just awake in general 😅

[fleet bough]

Hello

[tardy vigil]

I'm 17 years old and I've successfully completed my 10th standard studies with 93% marks and I want to do work along with studies to support my family with some money

@gritty rivet I want to make a resume

@gritty rivet but I'm confused in making resume

[deft herald]

What country are you in? TBH you'll be pretty hard-pressed to find a tech-related job at your age with no higher education. What kind of job are you looking for?

[vapid jay]

I mean, if you want to do graphic design you can make a resume and create a portfolio website.

[tardy vigil]

@deft herald I'm from india

@deft herald I'm looking for some mini projects that I can make and get a small amount paid

[vapid jay]

I can get mine (its very outdated and does not have all the info needed)

[near ocean]

other jobs exist that arent tech related that you could be working as a student

[vapid jay]

I never really used my resume. I have only done internships so far and my portfolio usually was enough already.

[deft herald]

My friends from india grew up butchering lambs and stuff 😄

[tardy vigil]

@near ocean can you tell me some

[near ocean]

retail jobs, hospitality jobs, etc

[deft herald]

where specifically in India are you? I know the economy can vary pretty drastically

[tardy vigil]

@deft herald in rajasthan

The biggest state of India

@near ocean okay okay

[deft herald]

Yeah unfortunately without more experience, it'll be hard to find something coding related. However, you can definitely try to find gigs on freelance platforms like fiverr and freelancer; just don't expect to make a living doing that

[tardy vigil]

@deft herald thank you for your advice

Something if you all can tell me ... so please share some information with me so that I could find some online work

[turbid bobcat]

Are companies usually willing to offer remote contract work while waiting for H1B ?

[tardy vigil]

@turbid bobcat I don't know

[fringe sphinx]

Without a H1B, I don't believe you're eligible for work.... even under contract. But, i am not an employment lawyer.

[turbid bobcat]

yes I am, I've done it before

I mean remote contract work

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, you mean: contract you in another country while waiting for work authorization for the US. Gotcha.

From a US employer perspective, the normal "remote" approach is via a local subsidiary or contract firm, not direct contract. It's somewhat problematic to directly contract out of country... although I've known folks to create local entities for such purposes (ie: a company of 1 person)

[turbid bobcat]

I've been paid by at least two companies via this method. One of which was actually pretty small.

[fringe sphinx]

I think smaller companies are more likely to be lenient. As a small company, we've employed people like this (direct contract to a foreign corporation, with one employee). Larger companies would be harder, I'd imagine.

[turbid bobcat]

ah I see what you mean, I have that status right now, been providing services to a company based in London (Im in Europe), in addition the most recent US based company wasn't that small, they actually have a remote async team across the world

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, in my companies case, we've only contracted to Europe... it's also easier to get travel visas back and forth.

[turbid bobcat]

I actually have a preference for small to medium sized companies. But I was thinking that larger companies would be more willing to sponsor me.

Idk, I think I'll be fine, I've had at least two recruitment processes where they were considering sponsorship, mustn't be that hard

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, h1b is weird... some years, the lottery is massively oversubscribed, and other years, it's pretty easy to get one.

Altho last year looks pretty bad... almost 3:1, i guess... maybe not that bad... total regs is misleading: https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-electronic-registration-process

[turbid bobcat]

interesting.

my concern is that I'm not currently employed. tho it was on purpose, I felt like I wouldn't be able to fully focus on a job search like this one while working full time, so I've saved a lot of money to make this career move, can sustain myself for like 2 or 3 years or something

[fringe sphinx]

If you're able, check out Python conferences if travel is something you can do. Good place to network: https://dev.events/EU/python

[turbid bobcat]

would conferences here in Europe help me job search San Francisco ?

[fringe sphinx]

If you're looking for large companies, perhaps. Lot of people work for MNCs

I'm a "never have lunch alone" kinda guy: any networking is good networking.

[turbid bobcat]

I'm actually super ambivalent about what kind of company company size to target. The long processes at bigN companies can eventually put me in a bad spot.

I'd like to have some time to upskill before starting a serious search.

[fringe sphinx]

This is more generic advice, but: contributing / getting involved in some open source project that has corporate relevancy might be a good thing for your resume. Being able to point at something you're involved in that the company is using (or is related) could be a good asset. It's a longer-term play, but something to consider.

[turbid bobcat]

I have a pretty strong CV, including open source projects - nothing too major or famous, but stuff that shows my skills and is generaly able to impress

[fringe sphinx]

My specific point wasn't about your skills... it was about giving the company a reason to hire you. It's much easier to say: "Hey, BWC seems smart, and they're involved in the XYZ project which is really unique/something we use, let's hire them"

[turbid bobcat]

oh sorry, I've reread your previous message, you mean a project in something they do or use

[fringe sphinx]

I know any resume with any library we use goes immediately tot he top of the pile (there's not many)

[turbid bobcat]

yeah that's some pretty good advise, thank you - my current project is interesting and is targeted to the ML domain, but it's not really me using a tool or contributing to a tool, it's me building a new tool, do you think that would count ?

[true harness]

well? what are they 👀

[fringe sphinx]

I mean "not many resumes", not "libraries"

[true harness]

well what libraries 👀

[turbid bobcat]

another question, is leetcode still relevant if I choose to go for small to medium sized companies ? (I'm mostly doing ML and backend engineering)

[fringe sphinx]

Just off the top of my head, core app stuff: numpy pandas plotly duckdb polars airflow, anything jupyter / ipython related, anything AI/ML/DS (sklearn, torch, keras, tensorflow, pmdarima, etc)

A contributor to any of those would immediately pass the first hurdle, at least for us.

(I'd also imagine anything toolchain related... linters, test automation, etc.... )

[turbid bobcat]

oh so you mean direct contributions to, not making a project with the tool

[fringe sphinx]

Well, both. direct contributions is a +++, but making a project with the tool is also another +

[true harness]

what's ++, work experience with?

[fringe sphinx]

Yah

It goes for most jobs... previous experience with something the company uses helps on the front-end (passing the screen), and at the back-end (as a tie-breaker)

[turbid bobcat]

so direct contribution is 3x better than a project using the tool, isn't there a bit nuance ? what if its a really cool project

[fringe sphinx]

I'm out on a limb a little bit / over generalizing. But generally, yah. And yes, there's a lot of nuance (what kind of contribution, what level of involvement, etc)... but the main thing is shows is you know the project at a deeper level than just "using" it for a small project.

[turbid bobcat]

I'm thinking, training some complex model with tensorflow could be a greater demonstration of skill than contributing to some bug in a keras layer

[fringe sphinx]

Perhaps. but, looking at a resume, I'll be more impressed by the second (fixing some small bug). I'll stop here and let other people comment... this is just my opinion.

[turbid bobcat]

that's quite interesting, what if someone creates a new ml framework, like, smaller scale just for fun, where he had to actually code the operations from scratch, thus demonstrating deep knowledge of how the thing works

[fringe sphinx]

I'll still put the keras fix above all of that <during a resume screen>. It's a massive project: it's not easy to contribute. (again, my personal bias).

[turbid bobcat]

uhm, I'll definitely consider doing it then. it's just that I don't know about that time invested/return ratio

[fringe sphinx]

agree, it's just one idea. Not saying it's necessary or the only way.

[turbid bobcat]

I'll also be more motivated to work on my own stuff to be honest. right now I'm trying to decide if leetcode is a good invesment. but it probably is, even smaller companies sometimes do it I think

[fringe sphinx]

I hate leetcode, but it is a screening style used by most mid/large companies, so it's just part of the game.

[turbid bobcat]

That's fine, I have a ton of time to prepare. It's gonna be a balance of preparing for the interview, and working on interesting and challenging projects to showcase my skills.

I'm gonna make a list of companies with mission statements that I like and that have positions that I find interesting. Then research each of them, know their stack, what kind of knowledge and skills they are looking for. Then tailor my preparation towards that.

My prep will definitely amount to making interesting projects and leetcoding a lot.

[compact shoal]

Hello. I hope you are well. Could you tell me about your industry experience? How did you get into the professional world?

[deft herald]

Who? me?

[near ocean]

graduate
write up a cv
apply to a bunch of positions
accept first one cause rent doesn't pay itself

[deft herald]

Yeah basically same for me. Although i kept working for a year after graduation at the job i kept through college

[deft herald]

You got any more exciting questions? 😄

[hearty island]

i found a nice job app tracker called stipplo that's free

been giving it a try

i just wish there was a way to add the URL with one click

[fringe sphinx]

I took my second offer. ‘Fax over IP’ seemed like a terrible business idea and I had the foresight to realize this (and decline)

[hearty island]

going to be cranking out about 41 apps, maybe more

[deft herald]

what the heck lol. "wait so you mean email?"

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, that’s the dumb thing. It was after email was commonplace.

[brave inlet]

Is anyone a current software engineer or data analyst?

[fringe sphinx]

Yes. Lots of people here are. I am. What would you like to ask?

[brave inlet]

I want to know exactly what you do in that position like what do you correct and or analyze and how does it pay in comparison to what you’re doing

[deft herald]

How does what I do pay in comparison with what I'm doing?

[brave inlet]

Pretty much like challenge to pay

and where should I really start I code in C++ already but I want to get into python more besides small projects and know what’s used industry wise

[deft herald]

Well it depends on the industry. I'd say Python is probably the industry standard for data analytics, along with some other tools

[brave inlet]

If I’m looking to get a career in it where should I start

[deft herald]

But say for embedded devices, C and C++ would be the standard

[deft herald]

The most surefire path is a bachelor's degree in an appropriate major. For data analytics? probably some intersection of math/stats/CS

[brave inlet]

Without a degree lmao I’m past high school

I work in sales and advanced tech for AT&T and I absolutely despise sales

So Id rather do something I already enjoy

[deft herald]

Do you already have a degree in something else?

[fringe sphinx]

Generally, most of us didn't get the luxury of picking our first job. The first job picked us. I spent nearly 15 years in the industry of my first job (across multiple companies).

[brave inlet]

Ah

[brave inlet]

Nah nothing tbh I need certifications all I have really is projects and stuff

[vapid jay]

i need help with my dc bot dm me

[deft herald]

#❓｜how-to-get-help
No one's gonna DM you

[gilded vine]

h

[toxic epoch]

random

but does anyone tutors for free (this is stupid-ly not free but i need help)

[fringe sphinx]

The entire #python-discussion channel does. Ask any question or tell us what you dont understand.

[deft herald]

Same with the entire python-help system
#❓｜how-to-get-help

[toxic epoch]

ooh really? thanks

[turbid bobcat]

I just found out that AWS has quantum computers. Ofc they use python to do quantum algos.

It's gonna be my next project, I'm gonna try to do a quantum neural network

[full sparrow]

As a beginner, should you just spam leetcode problems until you get good?

[true harness]

no

[near ocean]

you'll be good at leetcode, not much else

[summer roost]

I'm skeptical that spamming leetcode problems as a beginner would even help you get good at leetcode

[buoyant seal]

https://codingchallenges.fyi/challenges/intro
https://nedbatchelder.com/text/kindling.html
Spam making projects. (preferably eventually investing time into few big ones over a lot of small) 😊 And you'll get good. (eventually, if u will be also learning theoretical stuff)

[hearty island]

"Work as a prompt engineer and business analyst to design and develop generative AI solutions for the US audit practice
Partner with application development teams to design and develop solutions leveraging generative AI technologies; develop effective prompts for the solutions leveraging knowledge of audit and generative AI technology
Develop and test proof of concept solutions, ensuring they meet the needs of our audit teams
Collaborate with audit teams to understand their challenges and needs, and translate these into business requirements
Present solutions to engagement teams and clients, effectively communicating the benefits and functionality of the tools developed
Maintain up-to-date knowledge of auditing standards, AI technology trends, and best practices when developing generative AI solutions"

prompt engineer smh

come on kpmg, wtf are you doing bruh

[muted bridge]

being an cs undergrad sucks 90% of the time, especially in the earlier years

you have to deal with professors who think their class is the only thing in your curriculum, plus personal projects & leetcode

it doesn't really help that leetcode is practically useless

[hearty island]

this is what the job app tracker i'm using looks like

[gritty rivet]

I wouldn't waste much time on LeetCode unless you're actively cramming for job interviews

[hearty island]

applied for 19 jobs today

[muted bridge]

job apps also take up a really long time, I'm trying to see if I can apply to 15 jobs daily/whenever I find the time. So far I've applied to 70 jobs and still counting

[hearty island]

tracking them takes time too, so i'm happy i found this browser extension. i wasn't even tracking them before

[muted bridge]

what's this extension? I'm literally running excel

[hearty island]

stipplo

[muted bridge]

kay thanks

[hearty island]

yeah, np

[muted bridge]

extension won't run for me, did you have the same issue? @hearty island

[hearty island]

hmmm, that's strange it was fine for me. are you using chrome?

[muted bridge]

i was using it wrong, I think it's fine now

[buoyant seal]

https://discordapp.com/channels/267624335836053506/470889390588035082/1169784228582527127 do better things then 😊

[muted bridge]

looks interesting

[hearty island]

might wanna anonymize your resume

[peak halo]

it's specifically phone numbers and precise locations that we disallow

[true harness]

wait you disallow them? why?

[peak halo]

because those can be used by malicious actors to physically find you

at least precise locations can. and then posting ones phone number makes one more vulnerable to unwanted or malicious contact than does email.

[eager jungle]

Phone numbers, can provide whole information about a person, like thier address, id number, etc.

[peak halo]

• You use Turkey and Turkiye interchangeably. I would pick one.
• I suppose you want to list "Relocation" as an experience item to show that it had you fully occupied during that time, though it's unusual to see it as "experience". I'm not sure where I'd put it.
• Instead of "Was busy moving to the other side of the world; building a life from scratch", I would say "During this period, was preoccupied with establishing myself and obtaining a work permit". Saying "moving to the other side of the world" has a negative tone that I can't quite explain.
• "for back end, lowered query costs" makes me think that "back end" and "lowered" are both descriptions of what is coming next. Use a semicolon here instead.
• What does it mean to "optimize a docker container"? Did you optimize processes that were running in those containers? Or time to build the images?
• I assume for the Summer code jam, you are talking about ours. I would omit the part about passing the qualifier. I'm also not sure what you mean about being in the "advanced category". But you can say that you participated in the Python Discord Summer 2020 Code Jam, which was sponsored by JetBrains and the Django Foundation.
  • I would omit that you built a nostalgic web experience, because they won't know that the theme was nostalgia, unless you change it to say that it was. You can just say that you built a website that displays early versions of famous websites, and that you implemented it using Docker, Django, etc.
  • For the last bullet, say "Submission ranked in the top 10 among 56 projects"
• For the WRitten Pronunciation one, just have "Apr 2020" by itself, if it was only in that month.
  • Was that a project you did individually? If you did it as part of some formal experience (like something organized by a university), say so.

I'm not sure one way or another if saying that you dropped out of university is a good idea.

[errant thicket]

Hey does anyone know how I can make a side hustle with coding ?

[peak halo]

you can look on sites like fiverr, but you probably won't have very much success.

[errant thicket]

So how can I have success mate with code side hustle?

[sonic star]

i never get call for interviews

[peak halo]

to have a coding "side hustle", you have to have all the skills needed to do that thing professionally, and then some. and at that point, you might as well be doing it full time.

What are your circumstances that you want a coding side hustle? are you a student, or are you working full time and what extra work, or what?

[errant thicket]

Yes a student mate pls help a young jedi

[wintry marsh]

Hey guys, I’m starting to work on some projects for my portfolio, and I’m assuming I need to upload them on Github to show my code. I was wondering will my projects need to be deployed on actual sites/servers, or will the code on GitHub be enough? (Does that mean the person looking at it will just run the code on their local device?)

Thanks

[peak halo]

you pretty much won't find a way to make money programming as a student other than internships. have you applied for any?

[peak halo]

What kind of job are you looking for? The hiring managers in my department would probably at most just look at the code to see what it does and get a feel for your the quality of the code, without running it.

[wintry marsh]

Software Dev/Web dev/ idk exactly

I’m guessing if it’s just a website, then I can maybe have that deployed easily, and they can click on it

[peak halo]

I would just have it on github and have a readme with (correct) instructions for how to run it if someone wanted to. but I wouldn't expect that most interviewers would actually try to run it.

[wintry marsh]

But for an application, with a full stack project, I’m just wondering if I need to figure how to keep it running

[wintry marsh]

I see, thank you! So with the code on GitHub, anyone can simply download everything and run it all together? What if I’m using a subscription for a service or w.e but I’m no longer paying for it, they probably wouldn’t be able to run the entire thing properly right?

[peak halo]

I guess not. you could have a docker container that mocks whatever that service does for demonstration purposes, I suppose.

[wintry marsh]

Interesting, thank you

[errant thicket]

Ok thanks for help I know it’s a way I saw on the news a guy made money coding as a side hustle

Does anyone know ?

[peak halo]

whatever you saw was probably sensationalized and unlikely to happen for most people who try whatever that person did.

[wintry marsh]

I don’t think coding can be a side hustle

The amount of time and effort you put into learning and getting good at coding, that already isn’t a “side” hustle anymore lol

Unless maybe you’re making very simple and basic websites, not sure lol

[smoky quest]

Some flags as a reader:

• The last time you wrote code was 2 years ago
• You haven't been able to hold classes or a job for at least a year
• The people who tend to go to the bay area are more on the ambitious side and hard working. But your resume reads you more like a butterfly
• People move across the globe all the time and do not take almost 2 years to adjust. So it may be confusing and fit in the theme of not being hard working since you don't have any project during that timeframe

[nimble jackal]

Hi all, I'm looking at applying to unis (UCAS/UK) next week and I've been enormously overthinking each university from rankings to location. I can't find entirely reliable information on which ones are best for computer science. So far these are my choices:

• Univeristy of Kent
• University of Strathclyde
• University of East Anglia
• University of Sussex (is Essex better?)
• University of Stirling

Any advice on the unis mentioned and recommendations are greatly appreciated. I'm looking to do software development in the future (backend web dev, software engineering, etc.)

[vapid jay]

all the best dude

[dull belfry]

i am doing my cs degree 1st year i know some web dev knowledge and made few crud apps

[vapid jay]

i also tried web dude ik fullstack but am having a bad feeling about it like most of the people nowadays are going toward web so now am doing ml alongside like i wont drop the web as well , we can be better then everyone else so shouldnt care about how many peeps we r competing with but still

[dull belfry]

yea its competetive but am doing backend stuff only frontend mostly from some examples i thought of learning about security which fits pretty well with backend

[vapid jay]

cool dude

[turbid bobcat]

Amazon wasnt offering sponsorship ? Is that normal ?

[snow thicket]

lmao

[civic haven]

yo guys im bored what should i do

[brave swallow]

im a fresh grad and started to apply recently, i've noticed that one of the company i've applied will have a technical interview as first interview. I thought that initial interview are focused more on knowing the applicant and their soft skill. Im guessing technical interviews as initial interview are normal?

any comments

[lyric violet]

piss people off

[harsh river]

you seem like you're only here to troll.

[lyric violet]

why are you following me

[harsh river]

i frequent carreer discussion and pygent and the help channels, places where you keep doing your thing

[lyric violet]

what's "my thing" though

[lyric violet]

get a life

what are you cooking Sebastiaan?

[near ocean]

<@&831776746206265384> trolling in my careers channel

[crisp stream]

!mute 1169902340724236359 1d Read the #rules and #code-of-conduct to understand how to behave in this server.

[inner wren]

:incoming_envelope: :ok_hand: applied timeout to @lyric violet until <t:1699095136:f> (1 day).

[stark kite]

hi

[crystal trellis]

hey guys
i wanted to contribute to open source in python
im a new comer to open source contributions can anyone guide me

[fringe sphinx]

#python-discussion is probably a better place to ask. Also, see https://github.com/readme/guides/first-oss-contribution

[craggy wave]

Apologies for taking so long, my days were unexpectedly filled with nice things that made me not use Discord that much (some progress on planning marriage).

I've mainly been thinking about the question in a way that's relevant for me at the moment. I'm mainly developing software in teams of 6-9 people for larger organizations, think web applications, services, etc.; it's what my Java-colleagues would call "enterprise development".

I'm also going to oversimplify, generalize, and exaggerate difference a bit; reality and individual trajectories are obviously much more nuanced.

What I often see with people that are just starting out (juniors just entering the field) is that they focus on the "what" rather than the "how": They have a problem to solve, like a feature that they have to implement, and they're very happy when they manage to write code that does just that.

To give a personal and extreme example, when I just started coding, I vividly remember that I needed to sort something and didn't know how to do that. So, I implemented "bubble sort" from pseudocode I found in one of my father's books. The code was an utter mess, but I was happy that it worked. In fact, it initially had a bug, but because the code I had written was so bad, I had to rewrite entire parts of it just because I couldn't make sense of it myself anymore. This is an extreme case, but I was very much focused on the "what" ("it sorts") and did not spare a lot of thoughts on the "how" (even in the sense of "How can I implement this feature so I still know how it works when I look at it an hour later?", let alone "how can I implement this feature so that it's easy to change or adapt later on?").

.
I don't think that this is bad.

It's just a natural consequence of us having a limited cognitive capacity; you can't learn everything at once. If you're still very much busy learning a programming language, one of the first tools you typically learn, you have less cognitive space left over to also think about "design/architecture", "general development practices, principles, & values", and so on. It's difficult to take a "meta"-perspective on your work if you still need all your cognitive resources just to write the code/work with the framework the project is using.

One sign/symptom that I often see is a very unstructured development process: If you ask them to commit often and early, the commits are mostly "WIP"-commits that contain a lot of unrelated-to-semi-related changes, all in one commit. Part of it could be related to the "code-and-try" approach of manual testing: If you get feedback on your changes by running the code and manually testing your changes (e.g., running a devserver), you typically have to make changes to multiple different parts of the project (business logic layer, presentation layer, persistence layer) at once just to make a change visible "end-to-end".

One of the risks is a a two-way flow in decisions: Since you're also working on the presentation layer, you may make different "business logic layer" decisions because you know it will be "easier to work with", often only in the short-term, in the presentation layer. The result is a higher coupling than you want. You may also decide to move business logic to the presentation layer, because it seems easier to do something there (especially in the short-term), spreading out business logic over the application, making to more difficult to understand the core of the project.

This also leads to "having to fix linting later on", "cleaning up code" or "writing tests later on"/"test late", over bigger chunks of code. And, once you're doing that late, it not only feels like a chore but it's much more difficult as well. It's easy to miss a "copied" docstring if you have to add/edit/write all your docstring after several days or two weeks of coding; it's way more difficult to write comprehensive tests if you have to go back and figure out what the exact contract for every piece of code exactly was because you wrote it a week ago (let alone if you wrote it in a way that's easily testable to start with).

It also delays feedback, by a lot: People typically tend to share their code once it's getting closer to being finished, but since you're working on multiple things at once, this only happens after all those changes get closer to the finish line. I see quite a few junior developers who take a problem, want to focus on it alone for a couple of days (or even more than a week), and come back with a lot of changes, spread out of a lot of files, spread out over several layers of the application.
At that point, it's much more difficult to review the changes and suggesting a different approach to the problem has much more impact, as it sometimes means that a big chunk has to be rewritten. Sometimes a larger feature ("user story" if you're so inclined) also requires several changes and juniors tackle multiple such changes as once, in parallel, compounding this effect.

.
When people get more experience——in The Netherlands we typically call this intermediate level "medior"——they typically start to get more cognitive capacity to evaluate their work process and their code at a "meta"-level. At this point, they may not have internalized the underlying principles or have a lot of ideas about the principles themselves, but they start to be concious of the patterns other use in the project and start to adopt them. This leads to people who are able to more independently implement a feature because they start keeping their changes small, contained, and know to get feedback often so they can truly iterate over those specific parts of their solution.

Once you get to a senior level, you should be able to help your team get to that higher development/engineer level because you have experience in how to effectively design software (I think that David Farley makes some good points about software engineer being more akin to a design problem than a production problem), know the effects of ill-adapted development processes, and the long-term consequences that may have on being able to change and maintain a service in the long run (including scaling it if the need arises).

A senior should also have a deeper understanding of why design decisions impact things like "coupling", "cohension", and "separation of concerns", and knows how to try patterns to solve these issues. They might also be able to relate the current problem to things they've encountered in the past ("this solution worked great for a similar problem in the past"), but software problems are very varied, so you're likely to also encounter problems you have less or no experience with. However, a senior should have the engineering maturity to tackle such problems systematically and focus on comparing the approaches that have promise. (I like the chess analogy that was brought up earlier by someone, I think it was you.)

[vapid jay]

Very interesting read

[fringe sphinx]

Love this: "in The Netherlands we typically call this intermediate level "medior"——they typically start to get more cognitive capacity to evaluate their work process and their code at a "meta"-level. "

[spice herald]

Very interesting discussion here already about a topic I wanted to touch on.

I was hired for my first developer job a couple months ago and I have been hit by how little I actually know.

I know the syntax and I always have the documentation at hand. But issues arise for me when I have to decide on how to implement a feature, for example.

Let's say I am working on a barebones boilerplate app and I have to build the whole notifications feature of it. I know I need serializers and viewsets (django rest, btw), and I know how to send and receive the data I'm gonna work with.

But I do not know how to design the tables relationships. I try to make a mockup design and then the senior comes and tell me it's terrible. Neither do I know what the best practices are at my work (because they had told me they have their own way of doing things, and it's confusing).

And I am a backend dev; a junior one, though, but backend dev nonetheless. I am "supposed" to know these things, but I don't, and it feels bad.

[fringe sphinx]

"I was hired for my first developer job a couple months ago and I have been hit by how little I actually know.": If you were asked before you started, did you think you were ready / did you think you knew more than you did?

[buoyant seal]

😅 learn SQL and databases. What else to say. Catch up blank in your knowledge.
I can promise though, there will be always something u don't know at any rank level :/
And preferably juniors should be not criticized like this may be. A bit softer differently somehow to point incorrectness? 🤔

[fringe sphinx]

" I do not know how to design the tables relationships.": This is one of my interview questions for college students who say they know databases. I can't recall anyone (college grad) successfully answering schema design questions.

[brazen island]

My suggestion is picking up a book in database design because this will go a long way for your current project and your career as a backend dev in general.

[spice herald]

I was moved by the "you're never ready, just make the jump" sentence lmao

[brazen island]

My degree really hammered hard on DB design, normalisation, ...

I know others unis that cover DB design in a vacuum and then move on to large frameworks in web courses like Spring or node + some ORM and they basically never make the connection, I think this is common

[craggy wave]

I wouldn't expect junior developers, especially those who just start out, to immediately know how to design a good database schema, especially not if that design features a few of the ol' "this is the way we do things 'round here"-idiosyncrasies. This is where I'd work closely with someone, working in small iterations with a lot of feedback (optionally in pair programming sessions).

[spice herald]

But it's not only about databases though. It's also about performance.

I mainly build web services and for my bosses performance is really important. But I lack that knowledge as of now, to be honest. Should they teach me, or is it up to me? Are they expecting too much from a Jr.?

[craggy wave]

Even if you had a lot of formal education on the matter, my experience is that there's typically a gap between the educational examples and a real life project you have to do without the trainingwheels of a course that focuses on specific concepts in specific projects/tasks/weeks.

[brazen island]

Having a lot of responsibilities as a Jr. is not bad, personally I was hired to be an "expert" and not a junior out of uni. There were many topics where I couldn't ask anyone questions, it sucks a bit yes but you can't hide behind the idea you're junior and the responsibility can make you grow faster. The important thing is you grow correctly by, imo, reading books and seeing how things should be done correctly 😄

[buoyant seal]

I mainly build web services and for my bosses performance is really important. But I lack that knowledge as of now, to be honest. Should they teach me, or is it up to me? Are they expecting too much from a Jr.?
😉 your education is your own responsibility.
if it is directly an obstacle to complete certain task, then research is part of task to do though.

[fringe sphinx]

I mean literally: Most college students I interview took a 1 semester database course. Few of them can model the various primitives correctly (1 to many, many to many, etc)... or correctly write an outer join... much less anything more complex than that.

[buoyant seal]

i prefer to think, if a thing to learn is generic knowledge i should have known, then it is my responsibility to learn it even in my own time.
if the thing required to complete task is obscure knowledge like knowing how to configure Datadog monitoring and debugging its issues => then it is out of my responsibilities to know by default, learning and researching only in work time is legit then

[craggy wave]

Do you recommend specific resources to people, like books or (online) courses?

[brazen island]

We used this in uni so it may feel a bit "academic". The good thing is you can pretty much read the chapters out of order, if someone has the time I'd say it's a great resource

https://www.pdbmbook.com/

[fringe sphinx]

Not particularly, but, I've picked up a few resources on PyDis from other users which I've been sharing: https://selectstarsql.com/ and @harsh jolt https://owencampbell.me.uk/sql_python_tutorial/pages/intro.html

[true harness]

for me, we don't have a required database course, it's just an elective which most people aren't taking, sadly 😦

[brazen island]

The first 4 chapters of the book together with 6 and 7 are key, after that you should really understand relational DBs well, so you do not need to read all 20 chapters

[craggy wave]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll put them on my list to read myself so I know what's in it before I start recommending it to people.

[fringe sphinx]

Most of my interest in databases came from a graduate course in design of databases (not schemas, but internals)

Some great papers on query optimization / theory, in particular. Codd is the one paper that comes to mind... I think this: https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~zives/03f/cis550/codd.pdf

[brazen island]

It's strange that it's an elective because for me it's a core component of any CS program. You can teach it on the practical side or you can approach it from the relational algebra side if your program is ultra theoretical

[true harness]

i think so too, but my school is a bit really bad

[plush summit]

1 -web dev
2 -data science
3 -ml -linux
4 -cloud
Is this order of courses good on the side not sure if i wanna do ml or Linux first alr have webdev expierience so decided to start with that along side that im in uni for cs

[brazen island]

Personally it took me a while to reconcile what I learnt in that book with web / backend development, but as soon as I did all the typical modelling / architecture problems became super clear (like impedance mismatch) and I think those will truly kill your app if care is not taken 😬. Also why I'm not a fan of ORMs which are a leaky abstraction over DBs and relational modelling, but I digress that's not a topic for this room

[fringe sphinx]

It also depends on the professors / graduate research groups. Some schools have fairly robust database research groups (ie: CMU) and are known for this stuff.

There's a lot of active work on databases and the SQL language, such as https://cs.emis.de/LNI/Proceedings/Proceedings241/383.pdf and https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3514221.3526184 and https://www.tableau.com/sites/default/files/2023-01/TR-2018-01.pdf (these links are from various duckdb threads... so these are things that modern databases are trying to do/incorporate)

[craggy wave]

Whether it's CS or a more applied track like software engineering, I'd expect something related to databases to be in there.

Although I'm also still surprised that tracks with a name that includes "software engineering" often don't include a lot of stuff relating to professional software engineering skills.

[harsh jolt]

That tutorial is aimed at people who know at least a bit of Python but nothing about databases. It was written because lots of people seemed to suggest they knew nothing about sql or relational databases and either used json/csv files for all their storage or relied entirely on an ORM.

[brazen island]

Well, I think The Netherlands has the same idea as Belgium, applied sciences vs research unis.

In applied sciences the professional software engineering skills are covered but students tend to hate it.

[craggy wave]

I think there are a lot of programs that do it in a way that's not annoying. Having a course about some of the professional skills in a vacuum is rather annoying. Coaching and incrementally learning skills over the course of several projects with feedback, with courses and teaching related to the projects you're doing, less so.

[fringe sphinx]

My son is in process of applying to CS programs in the US. I've seen such a wide range of curricula: some that require no swe / professional courses (but are available as electives)... others that include some relatively early (sophomore year).. etc. It always strikes me when interviewing CS grads how many are ill-equipped for the job. That's one reason internships are so strongly preferred.

[craggy wave]

Having a summative knowledge exam where you have to define terms of "scrum" doesn't sound like a great experience or one that really adds anything, yet some programs do that.

[fringe sphinx]

I think my first "SWE" course was in grad school (well after working in the field)

[brazen island]

My job (R&D) has a big commitment to working with local universities (applied sciences and research). We try to give them some "work" related to our projects. I've seen and coached many students in this capacity.

I think I see the applied science ones really gravitating towards the "what" and not the "why", they can quickly spin up a DRF project with react that works but I typically shouldn't ask any questions about the design.

The masters students OTOH are typically not CS (bio info, computational linguistics, ...) and those know a lot but typically can't do a lot.

Professional skills are totally not a part of research focused degrees here. 0 %. My hot take is that it's probably OK. It's something you need to do in your own time. There's, in my city at least, tons of organisations doing very well organised after school activities that you should join as they give you a social life and these skills. It's also something you can put on your resume that is looked at favourably

[craggy wave]

I agree.

[swift hill]

Hello

[hearty island]

fingers crossed y'all, my uhg interview is still under review

[hearty island]

oooooh, the job app i applied to got referred to a hiring manager!

"Once your complete application is received, we will conduct an evaluation of your qualifications and refer candidates for selection consideration. Candidates will be referred to the hiring manager for further consideration and possible interviews. You will be notified of the outcome. A selection is expected to be made within 30 calendar days from the issuance date of the certificate."

what cert are they talking about?

[craggy wave]

I'm not entirely sure, but it's probably similar to this: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/human-capital-management/hiring-reform/hiring-process-analysis-tool/issue-certificate-and-notify-eligibles/

[hearty island]

hmm, alright thanks

i don't wanna share more info than i have to bc it's a government position

[craggy wave]

Seems to fit your process: The eligible candidates were passed on to the hiring manager (the certificate); you were notified that you were eligible and passed on to someone who is going to make the final selection.

[hearty island]

word, makes sense

[wintry marsh]

Is there another site like GitHub you can add code for projects? So your profile doesn’t look empty from not contributing in open source projects etc

[craggy wave]

Good luck! I hope you'll get the job.

[hearty island]

thanks man

[craggy wave]

Why not just use GitHub with personal repositories? I hardly look at the activity graph when reviewing someone's portfolio unless they say they're very active in open source contributions.

[deft herald]

Yeah if you're already using GitHub, there's no reason to use something else too just for the sake of being present on multiple platforms

[hearty island]

i honestly don't know my chances, i'm shocked i got so far as i'm only an undergrad graduating may '24. internhips must have got me in to that referral to the hiring manager

[craggy wave]

The government here has a huge shortage of qualified applicants, including for starting positions. If it's the same in your country and they're are looking for someone with starting qualifications only, you might have a pretty good chance.

[wintry marsh]

Like private ones?

[craggy wave]

I mainly just mean for personal projects

[wintry marsh]

Not for the sake of being present on multiple platforms. More so , for not being active on GitHub, unless you’re uploading a project.

[hearty island]

word, word. thanks for the confidence boost!

[craggy wave]

If you don't have a lot of professional programming experience, having a few personal projects on GitHub that show your progress over time and your current level could really help with landing you that first job in the industry. I wouldn't really care about your activity graph. This is not to say that contributing to open source wouldn't be an additional plus; just that reverse isn't giving you any negative points, at least not if I were to review your application.

[deft herald]

I'm not understanding what you're trying to accomplish then?

[wintry marsh]

Thank you for explaining that to me 🙂

[wintry marsh]

Sebastian pretty much covered my concerns, thank you

[fickle current]

Hello, I am looking for an internship position for my end-of-study project, and I need some advice to guide my research. If someone could provide me with some advice, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you in advance.

[hearty island]

what do you wanna do?

[fickle current]

I am looking for a position in DevOps or software engineering

[hearty island]

so if it's to land an internship, you're going to need a solid resume and good projects

a decent amount of applications too

[fickle current]

I have worked on many projects in JavaScript. I have already completed two internships in software engineering and one in MLOps.

But how can I steer my application towards the internship?

[hearty island]

you can try tailoring your resume to the role + creating projects directly related to the role

[grand acorn]

Is there an off topic channel

[hearty island]

yep, #ot0-psvm’s-eternal-disapproval , #ot1-perplexing-regexing , and #ot2-never-nester’s-nightmare are all off topic channels

[grand acorn]

Tysm

[hearty island]

yeah, np

[wintry marsh]

Sorry to ask, but you’ve done 2 internships already? Why are you looking for another internship instead of a full time job? Were those internships a part of some coop program?

[hearty island]

could be possible that OP isn’t graduating yet

[hearty lodge]

Is their any good python programmer lol I need help with aomwthing very basic which im too embarrassed to say here please dm@me 🫠

[fringe sphinx]

a. Wrong channel. b. See #❓｜how-to-get-help . Very few people DM here. c. Don't be embarrassed, we help with all sorts of novice questions... hang out in #python-discussion and you'll see all sorts of easy stuff and you'll see plenty of people helping.

[hearty lodge]

Sorry 🙂

[hidden bloom]

is the wording for this bit of my cv bad?

do i repeat the word professional too much?

[white relic]

eh, IMO it doesn't sound too repetitive, but the bigger issue is that the word isn't pulling its weight.

like, you worked at dell and you got 1-on-1 mentoring, one could infer that it was a professional who worked at Dell

[near ocean]

I can't really tell what you did at dell

[hidden bloom]

okay i changed it a bit is it better now

[hidden bloom]

its a mentorship programme shld i add that in the title stemaspire?

[white relic]

you could perhaps say the actual title of the person who mentored you

[near ocean]

idk if I would personally include this item in experience
What exactly do you do at dell

"being mentored" is not an answer

[white relic]

I'm in agreement with mar tbh, cultivating relationships and being mentored is great, but not really the kind of thing that bears weight in a resume

[hidden bloom]

idk i feel like it does cus u have to apply to get into it? and then also my resume is kinda weak in genearl and im j tryna land a first internship but ya

[white relic]

not the channel for that

[near ocean]

No, and also maybe dont include insults in your attempts at help

[surreal arch]

BRO IM LOST HERE

[peak halo]

each channel has a description of what it is for. If you can't find the channel you're looking for, ask in #community-meta

[surreal arch]

alr

[white relic]

So you've got a light resume, that's normal. But that's all the more reason why you should use it to focus in on things you have done, not fluff it up with stuff that merely happened to you. Right?

I don't believe you have done nothing worth putting in a resume more than being mentored. (I remember an earlier version of your resume you posted here)

It feels a bit like you're trying to bulk out your resume by talking about everything you spent time on. But most of what you spend time on is essentially uninteresting; you want to focus in on the stuff that demonstrates your knowledge, skills and abilities.

I spent years at my last employer and I did like 85% busywork and 15% cool stuff. Guess what's on my resume

it's ok if it's short, because you haven't done that much. But you have done some things, so try to flesh those out

[gritty rivet]

I agree with trentj... This is a good start but fluffy and I would focus on what you actually accomplished. "Actively honing network skills" is especially irrelevant unless maybe you're applying for a sales role. "workplace readiness" is super vague, think about how to show what that really means

[fickle current]

I haven't graduated yet, I'm currently completing the required final end-of-study internship."

[smoky quest]

As an interviewer, my take away would be the candidate is all talk

Interviewers will care fare more about projects and things you actually did that provide value

[hearty island]

dang, rejected from Best Buy again, whatever

associate IT audit manager

they probably wanted more experience or a Masters degree

[white relic]

Experience, probably

[hearty island]

yeah

[hearty island]

i'm gonna be applying to another 15 jobs tomorrow, the job tracker is helping

[white relic]

That's the spirit!

[hearty island]

plus with a bit of luck i may get the hiring manager to give me an interview for that government position

[vestal sage]

I appreciate you taking the time to read this in-depth message, as it contains important context for the challenges I'm currently facing. I'd like to discuss how I approach problem-solving and coding, as this seems to be my primary obstacle at the moment.
After reading "Head First Design," I gained a clear understanding of the importance of starting with abstract concepts and systematically building upon them to create more complex components. It's like constructing a router to direct data where it's needed. Given my background in network traffic and utilization as well as training in circuit line repair and component analysis, my mind often gravitates toward considerations of bit and byte utilization.
However, I'm finding myself perplexed when it comes to Python VENV. I understand its relevance from a security perspective and its connection to the underlying system processes. But I'm unsure about how to interact with it within the terminal and its fundamental functioning. Does a VENV encompass tools like Poetry and lint, or are these components configured separately before VENV creation?
I've delved into extensive research on this topic, and I believe I require a high-level understanding of how to effectively employ VENV.
For instance, I've been working on a project management framework called https://github.com/green-dino/SWLF. In this project, I'm using nodes and blocks, and while I started coding before reading "Head First Design," I think I made reasonable progress. However, I lack the insight to identify my shortcomings and the precise questions to ask.

[pine sleet]

Hi - you ask a great question, however this channel is strictly for career related discussions. Perhaps you'd prefer to open a help channel instead? (see #❓｜how-to-get-help for instructions)

[gritty rivet]

Maybe this will help regarding venv vs poetry: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/comments/vb0bag/how_to_choose_between_venv_virtualenv_asdf_poetry/

If you have more questions about that stuff #tools-and-devops would be the right place

[pine sleet]

Hi - we don't allow recruiting in this channel. Kindly delete this. Thanks

[muted bridge]

if a company clearly states the graduation requirements and I don't fit them, should I just not bother applying or is it still worth a shot?

[white relic]

It's a little subjective but if you don't fall far short I say no harm trying

don't waste your time applying to jobs that you're egregiously unqualified for though

[true harness]

some companies prefer a certain class standing, some require it. if they don't say "must be" then i apply

[muted bridge]

class of 2027, they want class of 2025 😭

[white relic]

Oh

in that case I wouldn't bother

[vapid jay]

is this a good idea

[white relic]

doubtful

[robust cobalt]

hey !!
Could anyone help me in building my resume as a fresher
i'm good at python language and have built few django based projects
i'm aiming for a data analytics apprenticeship
which requires skills in python and sql
And i have them both
So now the thing is how should i make a resume ...(have never built one before)
You can ping me ( will be waiting )

[peak halo]

Try looking at some resume examples and writing one, and then come back here to ask for feedback on it.

[pine sleet]

You'll want a template. "Jake's Resume" is a very common one many folks here like. It's a good starting point and a good template, fill that out and you can post it here for feedback

[robust cobalt]

alright onto it !!

[wintry marsh]

Delete this, thank you

Consider reading this: #career-advice message

[short pelican]

Been in hospitality since I graduated college. Always had an interest in computers and finally been acting on it. So far I've done a couple python courses on Coursera but definitely not confident enough yet. I'm thinking about signing up for Codeacademy and learning from there as well. Would appreciate some tips, advice and/or direction. Thanks!

[crisp stream]

We're not a job board. Read the #rules

[vapid jay]

Why at the job I am given random crap unheard of, with pretty much no docs?
Boss wants email notifications to be setted in "wazuh", their xml config is broken, random plugin on the net seems working.
Boss find half way to set it up using an integration/plugin named opensearch, but it doesn't seem passing in wazuh logs/variables also there's no usefull doc on such integration

[undone moth]

Hi, I am new to python, which is the popular resource to learn python (incl. the advanced concepts). Later, I actually want to do web developement with Django, any resource suggestion for Django is also helpful

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html Is this a good place to start ?

[harsh river]

yes it is.

!resources is also a good place

[inner wren]

Resources

The Resources page on our website contains a list of hand-selected learning resources that we regularly recommend to both beginners and experts.

[worldly ridge]

Give me an advice please: 6 oct i lose my dream job as a junior devops engineer due to bugdet cuts, i start applying to jobs, 15 oct i get an offer and sign the contract to company 1 (didnt like the job but i needed something), the day i sign the contract i get an offer from company 2 (huge corporation), and i give my word to the recruiter tham i'm 100% in and sign the contract that initiates a background check, and i am going to start on 27th november, on 20th october i interview and get a job offer as a junior devops engineer, i accept the job offer and im due to sign the contract on 9th of november, today is 4november and i dont know what to do

[deft pelican]

If you have signed a contract you need to handle that first. Ask if you can abort the it. Don't sign two contracts.

The contract that you want to sign: tell them you cant start right away.

Speak to the persons involved. And be honest.

[white relic]

That's one big difference between your education and your career: in school you're given problems with known solutions so that you can learn to solve them from someone who already knows how, but on the job you're given problems that nobody has solved before because the person who needs the solution can't figure it out themselves

[vapid jay]

I can't either
As I see the integration is not fully integrated, likely if I dig into their software I may be able to pass through stuff, but in the time line is not available
Futhermore all the software is a bs, but he wants it, so I can't do much else

[white relic]

Occasionally you can get some interesting ones but a lot of the time it's going to feel like you're solving problems that didn't need to exist and were created by someone else. Just think: if everybody knew what they were doing the first time, they wouldn't have needed to hire you to fix their goof ups

Welcome to your career

[vapid jay]

Not really a novice, mostly a rant I joined a company, because I was struggling to get jobs as a freelancer or dealing with people who don't pay

[white relic]

I meant no offense. It's a common thing to struggle with especially among juniors.

[supple vine]

Heyyy

[glad lion]

hey, i want to get a job with data analyst until now i have learned python at an intermediate level and now it s better to learn numpy and pandas or sql firstly?

[rare heath]

how do i advance to the next steps in python

i have learnt python but i really do not know which libraries to focus on

im jst learning random libraries but none of them in depth

[crisp stream]

do projects where you might want the libraries you've learned about
the projects could be about trying to solve problems you've faced or just some random topic you're interested in
P.S. #python-discussion is a better place for this question

[rare heath]

ok thnx

[fringe sphinx]

So, you've signed two "contracts" (I quoted "contracts" because in some places, like US, this is usually just signing the offer letter... ianal but that's not even a contract... it's just signing the offer letter). What country are you in?

[tawdry sable]

Yea thanks for the advice, im just trying to get first year uni internships in the UK and its so hard

there is like none apart from google step

[worldly ridge]

im inromania, i have signed on the work contract, which is ok as long as the starting date is later and i dont have another contract when i reach that starting date

[hearty island]

i'm gonna be rejected by a dog for this role

[hearty island]

looks like i'm gonna be applying to around 24 jobs today.. that means writing about 20 or so resumes

[fringe sphinx]

What was your question then? It seems like a "good" problem to have, to have two opportunities.

[hearty island]

tailoring my resume to the role i mean, i just count it as a separate resume

[worldly ridge]

i know but im very stressed, i made a promise to the recruiter for company 2 which is a big corporation, if i back out im black listed from ever working there i think

[fringe sphinx]

I can only speak from my experience in the US: people understand when a better opportunity comes along. You haven’t cost them anything: the worst thing to do is to -start-and quit a few weeks later

I don’t know the legalities here, if you signed two true employment contracts with terms vs at-will agreements.

The ethical thing is to inform them quickly, and not delay. If it’s only been a few days since you agreed is different than them holding a position for months.

The worst for me are people who accept multiple internship or job offers, and sit on them for months, which takes away opportunities from other candidates

[worldly ridge]

Ok that makes sense, thanks for the advice @fringe sphinx i appreaciate it

[fervent folio]

im trying to run a python code and this is what is showing on my terminal (This version of C:\Users\hp\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python311\python.exe is not compatible with the version of Windows you're running. Check your computer's system information and then contact the software publisher.
)

[fervent folio]

help

[fringe sphinx]

Wrong channel, please look at the title of each channel! You should start in #python-discussion

[spice herald]

Yesterday I asked something about learning on the job and understanding DB stuff. Quite a lot of people answered me but I couldn't follow the conversation anymore. Thank you all! :)

[hearty island]

applied to two textron jobs, still under review. been in review since the 29th

fingers crossed they give an interview

[hidden bloom]

so ur saying delete this entire mentoring programme thing?

[hidden bloom]

will having this mentor programme thing on my resume hurt it? shld i just remove it entirely...lol

idek y i bothered applying to it if i ca't even put it on the resume

[hidden bloom]

i needa apply for shit rn as shit closes and don thave time to make anymore projects

[white relic]

This one thing on your resume probably won't hurt. But if you are just using it to bulk up a resume that's mostly fluff, it will hurt, because a person glancing over it will not get any sense of what your abilities are and they will probably assume it's all fluff

[white relic]

Well, did you learn anything? Did you make connections? Those can be more important in the long run than having a good résumé.
Granted, that doesn't help you much in the now.

What about that online ticketing system you made or the REST API you worked on

Those sound like places to add detail and show how you applied your skills

[vapid jay]

whats a very useful programming language to learn other than python

[regal axle]

If you only know python, I highly suggest learning any strict typing (not interpreted) language. Something like C++ or rust. There is a more specific wording for this type of language; but the goal is to learn all the stuff that you skip over by learning python.
If you get good at programming concepts, the syntax of any language becomes "trivial". Or rather much more so, the more you understand languages

[vapid jay]

but how do i get good at programming concepts, how can i learn it

[fringe sphinx]

This is probably a better question for #python-discussion . There are lots of people there at different stages in learning.

[vapid jay]

ok

[fringe sphinx]

As a counter argument - Most college programs in the US have switched or are switching to Python as the introductory language. There are good pedagogical reasons for this, but it is true that reasonable people disagree on this topic.

oh, i guess it depends on how we interpret OPs question: was it: What to learn after Python vs what to learn first instead of Python?

[regal axle]

There are strong arguments for if python is a good first language or not. But under the assumption that it is a good first language (I think it is,) then a language like c++ is an even better second language. But this is getting off from career stuff

[hearty island]

"Minimum education and experience required: Master’s degree in Business Analytics, Business, Finance, Mathematics, Computer Engineering, or related field of study plus 5 years of experience in the job offered or as Business Analyst, Data Scientist, Statistical Analyst, IT Consultant, Application Developer, or related occupation." yeah yikes i don't stand a chance

[wheat hatch]

Why not try it? To me it sounds like the receruiter threw together a bunch of fancy sounding words he or she did not fully understand. A background in computer engineering is very different than a background in business analytics. The job requirements are all over the place as well. Don't worry about it.

[hearty island]

word, i'll do it then

[true harness]

requiring a masters at a minimum or 5yoe doesn't really make sense to apply for to me

[hearty island]

it's a bit of a reach for an undergrad who's graduating may '24 to apply to

[summer roost]

That's clearly not an entry level job

[hearty island]

agreed

[hearty island]

online assessment for UBS incoming

[valid umbra]

hi

[near ocean]

Based, tho one friend that worked there didnt really like the team they were in

[hearty island]

it's for a biz analyst role, i applied today and they shot back with an email

so that means i got past their ATS at least for the first round

also ever since they merged with credit suisse, i heard their HR has been a mess

[hearty island]

also it's much better than goldman sachs

[smoky quest]

I am only showing you how your resume will be perceived.
Other candidates won't have that issue and reviewers won't care whether you have had time or not.

It may be worth digging up a previous project and taking it further as quickly as you can

[hearty island]

ok, completed the UBS culture match, the answers were pretty common sense

[hearty island]

edit: just did another one

they say it takes 20 minutes to do, but if you pick the wrong responses you're kind of fucked

[tepid plume]

Hi dears
I am python developer with 4+ years of experience, but because my nation I can't event get any interview!
Do you have any suggestions for me?

I am from Iran.

[white relic]

Are you looking for work in Iran? or (also) in other countries?

[tepid plume]

I am looking for work in other countries

[summer roost]

Sanctions will make it virtually impossible for you to work for a company in most of the tech hub countries. Your best options are finding work in Iran, or finding a way to leave Iran (possibly a student visa, depending on your education level)

[obtuse ridge]

Hey folks, I'm trying to bridge the gap between being a computer nerd and working with software and such, or project-based work for data.

what would you say are important in terms of a support network? I tried doing codingame projects to put on my resumé, but it felt like asking for help on puzzles, or asking about the intent and concepts behind the puzzles was cheating, and ended up not getting much success out of it

[final storm]

Is there a way I could learn python from scratch, Here till March enough to make my own website?

[sick ginkgo]

There is... You could use Flask for websites and their documentation

It's pretty simple actually, I just got into flask a few hours ago too

[final storm]

Thanks

Since it's my last year of highschool, we have to present something that you could do as a career at the end of the year and I put web development / making websites

[sick ginkgo]

I am not even in High 😭 my school system is weird...

[final storm]

Really? How does your system work

[sick ginkgo]

Elementary School 4-12,
Middle School 12-16,
High School 16-20 (Depends on what level),
Higher School 20-23,
Uni 23-27.

[final storm]

mmm

I'm guessing your in middle school

[sick ginkgo]

yup last year

[final storm]

The numbers on the side confuse me

[sick ginkgo]

ages

[final storm]

Oh, For us people finish Highschool when they are 18

[sick ginkgo]

I've always been interested in development since I was 9... Im now 15..

[final storm]

That's nice, I have tried to learn Python twice but I was too bored to teach myself

[sick ginkgo]

I've been doing it now and it's pretty fun

[final storm]

Is that Visual Code

[sick ginkgo]

yes I know.. I could use PyCharm but I like VSC more

[final storm]

That does make sense
Do you think I could learn Vsc in less than a month?

[sick ginkgo]

VSC is so easy

if you want we can talk about development and progress in DMs without this Slowmode : D

[final storm]

Sure

[zealous topaz]

Hey guys. A bit long question here: I'm a contractor and junior level data engineer. I've been working with some other company for 6 months in multiple projects with same tech lead. However, I noticed something while working with this tech lead. This tech lead - a senior data engineer - has tendency to not pass over critical information and/or reverting critical information he passed over. (I'm the new and the only team member in his team...yet. There are multiple small teams each with their own tech lead looking over in the team)

I've been staying quiet because I didn't want to point fingers at him while I'm still less experienced, but at the same time I wonder if this is starting to affect my impression among other team members. Because now he's thinking I'm clueless on how things work with basic sql. (There were 2 incidents where "group by" involved. First one was miscommunication, second one happening right after first one on different project while clarifying the ticket. However, since both involved "group by," he actually said I need to refresh on basics. The omitted information that caused miscommunication and clarification was NOT in the ticket or any of discussion)

So when others judge it'll be based on me vs him and I def think I'm on losing side. Should I start mentioning this or am I too late? And if same situation comes in the future, what should I do?

[fringe sphinx]

Let's pretend for a moment that it's completely your fault: even then, you're a junior... it's expected that you have stuff to learn. There's no need to be defensive, or worry about your position, or create a "me vs him" dynamic.

[delicate bane]

first of all, there is almost always missing information in tickets. source: me.

[hearty island]

total apps: 45, rejected: 2, in process to apply for 17 more tomorrow (plus the other hundreds of apps i didn't track before this) + tons of other rejections

i'm putting my total at around 300-400 maybe?

talk to y'all tomorrow, gn for now

i am really hoping uhg gets back to me

[buoyant seal]

As ☕ above said missing information is pretty much always expected and the real part of your work to reveal.

It is included into thing every software engineer needs to learn as part of Gathering Requirements. Heck it has ultra fat entire book dedicated to this topic

Ability to gather requirements sufficiently well in order not to screw up more rarely makes a person a Middle dev

[potent nymph]

Is it Possible to land a job in big companies like google,Microsoft, netflix without a CS Degree

[harsh river]

is it possible? yes, is it a few order of magnitute harder? yes

[potent nymph]

Indeed it would be

[smoky quest]

Try to frame it from the other way around: Given that these companies get thousands of applications, most of which with degrees, projects and internships, why would they look at you?
If you are in HS or college age, just get a degree

[potent nymph]

Are there people who have done it without a degree

[smoky quest]

some people have done it. Not necessarily for the same roles though and not with the same likelihood

or not with the same compensation and opportunities

[potent nymph]

In which company you are working on rn?

[smoky quest]

I like to keep an air of mystery

[potent nymph]

Bro works for elon fs

[smoky quest]

elon is a fake

[harsh river]

only reason i would refrain from disclosing i worked for elon is a strong sense of embarrasment and not a sense of mistery

[potent nymph]

Lol

[smoky quest]

more seriously though, a CS degree is the path of least resistance and with the most opportunities and compensation.
The best way to fuck your life is to think you can do without a degree

[potent nymph]

Makes sense

[ashen urchin]

Hi! Everybody!

[fickle current]

hi

[finite crypt]

how can i add entire folders to the conversation?

like i can send just one code file

[white relic]

Indeed, you should always consider the source of advice.

Many of the people selling the "college is a waste" argument are professional YouTubers who either have never worked in the industry at all or found success in a different market. People like this make money by selling ads on their videos and sponsored books and courses to people who will believe that their fluke of success is repeatable. This kind of person is incentivized to tell you what you want to hear. Whether you can actually get a job or not is irrelevant to them.

[white relic]

Be skeptical, OK. But don't be so suspicious that you disbelieve everything on principle. Just because colleges are motivated to create more college students does not mean they're wrong. You can look at employment statistics and the actual experience of people who work in the field and compare salaries and retention rates of college educated vs. high school educated persons.

The idea that you can skip college and hustle your way to a great career in tech sounds good but it's not a realistic expectation. Many people who try it burn out and end up in unrelated careers.

[white relic]

You can always choose to disbelieve everything and everyone. But believing in nothing leaves you vulnerable to anyone who will tell you what you want to hear

[elder forge]

This channel is quite useful for career advise because there are a few regulars who are are hiring managers or otherwise have experience hiring programmers.
Stick around for a bit and hang out and you will get a general vibe for the what advise is offered, and by whom.

Speaking as an educator (I am a physicist at a university), I see a lot of people who want to get into programming who struggle with motivation. This is true both for those enrolled at a university, and those that are not. A Master's program is typically 5 years (I'm in Europe), and it is not really feasible to self-learn an equivalent curriculum in significantly less time.
5 years is a long time, and the structure of university, as well as the social aspects, helps many students with the motivation to keep going.
Another important factor is that when one does self-learning, it is easy to prioritize the fun and less complex topics, over topics that are more advanced. For example, a lot of programming jobs require advanced math, which can be difficult to learn on your own (particularly depending on your aptitude and motivation to learn math). Data structures and algorithms has similar challenges with regards to self-learning.

[true harness]

BLS data clearly shows that degree holders will earn much more on average than non degree holders. you can be skeptical, but don't discount everything because it might be biased

[white relic]

"Everyone is biased and I can't be sure what's true, so I'm going to do whatever I feel like doing anyway and blame my failures on the system for not accommodating me" is... certainly a way to live

[warm chasm]

Hi guys, I kind of needed help with how to start learning programming properly.

I actually graduated high school recently and am gonna start a CS related degree next year. I do have some experience with programming but idk if it’s relevant because I kind of followed what was in the A level Computer Science syllabus and idk what are the next steps about learning programming after that. I really wanna see if CS is right for me before I start so I can switch over to something else in case I don’t enjoy it.

What I learned in AL com sci was some basic Object oriented programming(inheritance,polymorphism, encapsulation) , data structures (Stacks, Queues, Linked Lists, binary trees) and algorithms (linear search, binary search, bubble sort, insertion sort). Idk what to learn after this tbh and what projects I could make with this knowledge. I heard the first year of the degree will teach the exact same thing, so idk what else I could learn to have some projects in my portfolio.

[safe crystal]

idk i think that you should learn how to make games because they give you more creativity in getting ideas

[warm chasm]

Will try that, thanks. I think OOP paradigms can be good for making games.

[white relic]

If you aren't sure whether CS is right for you, it's a great time to try out other things before you start in on the CS program. What would you do instead? How could you learn more about that field in the time that you have?

[fringe sphinx]

If you’re asking for real world experience: I have interviewed / hired software engineers for over 20 years. Not having a degree in todays market will make it nearly impossible to pass a SWE screen: your resume would be unlikely to be considered. There are exceptions and outliers (there are people in this discord who are doing quite fine without a degree) but the job market today is a hirers market. If you can land an initial job (most likely in support, operations or IT) without a degree, I’d advice at least taking evening or online college classes and work towards a degree.

[warm chasm]

Tbh, I have always really liked maths, so I was gonna major in maths. Idk if I like anything else tbh. I tried robotics before and didn’t end up liking it that much. I did enjoy the data structures/algorithms part of com sci so I think it might be a good major for me.

[fringe sphinx]

I was responding to your skepticism here: #career-advice message

[gaunt rain]

guys, if i have a ton of certificates in my file during an interview, does the interviewer get impressed by it and give me the job easily?
i believe its not, but this is what every professor and teacher is telling me in my college
and if there's any interviewer here, pls also tell me what would u do really in this case, and why

[white relic]

Your CS program is already planning to teach you everything you need to graduate and you will have time to get internships and do projects along the way. What you do between now and starting university won't likely have a big impact on your career, unless you decide to switch majors.

[fringe sphinx]

Agree with Trentj -and- computer science (college) is not software engineering (the job). You may or may not “like” being a cs major college student, but if your goal is being a SWE, you should also learn about that: SWEing is not at all like what your four years of CS will be like.

[white relic]

A BS in math is pretty useless so if you go down that road you probably are looking at a PhD and quite different career options compared to CS

[fringe sphinx]

To be clear, I’m just saying: work is different than student.

[fringe sphinx]

What kind of job and degree do you have?

[gaunt rain]

cs degree
and im still studying

[fringe sphinx]

I was merely sharing my perspective and perhaps bias, as a counter to your skepticism. I have hired non degree entry SWEs and had negative outcomes, and am unlikely to do it again unless/until the market gets harder to hire.

[gaunt rain]

do u have answer for my question?

[odd niche]

The problem comes down on universities and normal lessons are quite unuseful most of the cases

one learns better by his own

[fringe sphinx]

What kinds of certs? I generally consider certs useless for swe’s but: if they come at a low opportunity cost, and are complementary to Cs, it might be one way to show your motivation and interest. Like, a college student with AWS certs would show some motivation. But, if you collect certs like candy, it would dilute the affect

[white relic]

I am involved in hiring engineers and physicists. There's no certificate (short of a bachelor's degree in CS or a related field) I would recognize as meaningful in SWE. They're more useful in desk support or admin type roles.

[warm chasm]

Oh ok thanks, I was just concerned because I felt like I learned nothing about CS throughout high school. I think the high school CS classes I did are prob just a more simpler version of what Uni CS classes are like

[warm chasm]

Yeah I agree, that’s why I am looking to get into CS (the next thing I like after maths)

[fringe sphinx]

The high school material usually maps to -some- of freshman year CS. But there’s four years of college and a lot more depth.

[warm chasm]

Good to know that , thanks.

[elder forge]

Since you will start university with some experience in cs already, I will offer you the following piece of advise:

1. Maintain a hobby, this can be making games, playing music, sports etc. But ideally you can find a community for it/do it with other people. If the classes discuss things you already know, make sure you still go to the lectures, but invest your time and energy into your hobbies. This gives you something to focus on when the studies are slow. You will probably find later that you start making programming projects related to your hoppy, that are good for your cv.
2. When you enroll in a university you generally have the opportunity to attend classes outside of your study program. If you are interested in maths, figure out what classes the math students take the first year and sign up for one of them. Go to a few lectures, and if the curriculum gets too hard, you can sign off of the exam, so long as you do it before a set date. Remember that you are at the university to learn, so take advantage of it 🙂

[warm chasm]

Yeah I think that’s the case aswell.

[warm chasm]

Will do that, I think the problem for me rn is to find the hobby that I can link to CS projects

Ty for the advice everyone

[chilly furnace]

I'm going to ask my university for a refund tomorrow

[white relic]

It's possible, but I wouldn't think it likely, unless your employer and clients are all small companies and gossip when they talk business

[ivory sluice]

a BS math is pretty useless? really?

[white relic]

however, it is likely that the clients would avoid hiring you anyway, since that's the kind of thing that invites lawsuits

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve seen it happen once, but it was for a director or vp level individual leaving a startup for one of our partners. The partner asked the startup about him, and then the guy ended up losing startup job (they didn’t want to keep a leader around who was interviewing) and didn’t get the partner job.

[white relic]

By itself, yeah. Same goes for any pure science. You need to go to grad school before academia or industry will really take notice.

[elder forge]

Fid a hobby you like, and you will probably find some connections to CS later
Remember: you should work to live, not live to work

[fringe sphinx]

The one field I’m not sure about is quant finance, Some of the funds hire pure stats or maths undergrads and train them.

[chilly furnace]

Everything is useless.

I have a BS in computer science and idek why. Dumb piece of paper.

Like I said before, I'm going to ask my university for a refund.

[fringe sphinx]

The paper just means you completed a journey. If you didn’t/don’t take anything from it, that’s on the individual.

[white relic]

I've heard of this but I don't know how likely it is for a typical student. Seems like a high risk career plan but that's possibly just me.

[chilly furnace]

That's not right. Maybe my school is just shit and I didn't know it.

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, that was a ‘yes and’: those quant finance roles are for the top students

[chilly furnace]

However, my teachers have always said the curriculum is about the same to any school you go to. So idk if it's just my school.

[fringe sphinx]

I’ve hired great engineers from terrible schools.

I have a specific engineer and school in mind when I say that: we laugh about how bad his school is/was.

[chilly furnace]

I still don't understand how it could possibly be on me.

[white relic]

Many bachelor's degrees are very useful. CS is one. Doesn't mean every CS student is guaranteed a job on graduation. But it's a field where you can have a solid career with only a BS and not have to go to grad school to achieve

(My degree is not CS)

[fringe sphinx]

Who else is it on? They gave you books? You have the internet at your disposal? You have computers to practice on? You have blogs and videos to watch?

You get out what you put in.

[gaunt rain]

certs related to swe actually, but very basic stuff
like course completion for python basic/intermediate/advanced course in some site (for free)
and some course completion certs, that are conducted by government, and given only after attaining certain pass percentage in an exam they conduct based on the course they've conducted (and mostly these courses are conducted by some companies like ibm, and some institutes ran by govt.)
and some more certificates like offer and completion for some internships that i've gone for
and these still doesn't include certificates like ielts, or any other national level aptitude exams

now tell me, would an interviewer still consider these certificates?

[gaunt rain]

what is BS here btw
business science? 😛

[white relic]

Bachelor of science. Read it as "4 year degree" if that makes more sense.

[gaunt rain]

icic

@white relic so, u r a hirer?

[fringe sphinx]

Everything is considered, but for stuff that you should learn anyway (like Python) I wouldn’t pay any attention to a cert. if it’s unusual or related to the company, I might look. But: my worry is that certs come at the cost of something else: what’s the opportunity cost?

[chilly furnace]

The Internet at my disposal? The books that were not included in tuition? The computers?
All my money is being paid to professors who come in every day with an attitude.

[gaunt rain]

whats an opportunity cost here?

[fringe sphinx]

“Look, if you had one shot, one opportunity
To seize everything you ever wanted?one moment
Would you capture it or just let it slip?”

[chilly furnace]

I don't understand lmao. They're only there for a credential.

[gaunt rain]

lose yourself?

[fringe sphinx]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost: doing X means not doing Y. So what do you not do, in order to do a cert?

[white relic]

I'm never sure how to answer that question. I don't technically make final hiring decisions but I review resumes and interview people and make recommendations to the hiring manager, who puts a lot of weight in my opinion

[fringe sphinx]

Does it mean one less SW project? Etc

[gaunt rain]

im not interested in certificate hunting
but most of my friends in my college are collecting free certificates like pokemons
and my college said us to even upload it to github
and from my perspective, its pretty cringy

[fringe sphinx]

And what are you there for? This is college, professors can lead you to knowledge but can’t make you learn

[fringe sphinx]

If I were to suggest a cert that has practical, novel utility: AWS

[gaunt rain]

and yes, they just don't do much of any projects
but they still do the work they recieve in their internships tho
but im still not sure how legit they did their work

[fringe sphinx]

Agree, be your own judge; even if a cert gets them past the screen (which I doubt), it doesn’t carry past the interview.

[white relic]

I'm not saying I agree wholly with you here, but if the university is only there to provide you with a piece of paper, and they gave you the piece of paper, on what grounds do you claim a refund?

[gaunt rain]

what about azure, google cloud, salesforce?

[fringe sphinx]

Again, I think a cert is only interesting if it shows something unique

[chilly furnace]

I was there for the credential as well.
Look, billy. A bit over a quarter of my professors will lead everyone to a puddle of knowledge everyone is familiar with from high school - history and so on

The rest of them "teach" whatever it was I was studying. Not like I would get anything out of it if I payed attention.

[gaunt rain]

sry, small mistake

and my college said us to even upload it to github
*said us to even upload it to linkedin
and now my feed is full of their placebo levels of achievements

[chilly furnace]

Some of the stuff I was studying was laughable

[gaunt rain]

well, i still study about stuff that are deprecated

[chilly furnace]

Why?

[gaunt rain]

they taught me python using py2
and they still teach me about google app engine, which is deprecated by google

[gaunt rain]

cuz its still in the syllabus
(man the timeout for this channel makes me swear so badly)

[hearty island]

guys my job app is being assessed by the gov to see how well suited i am, hopefully i get through!

[gaunt rain]

be strong king
be covid positive

[hearty island]

ty

[chilly furnace]

Please cease spending money on that.
LLMs are going to make developers redundant one day.

Redundant as in their job will never pay as much

[fringe sphinx]

You’re describing everyone’s college experience. The difference is the effort you put in. I am speaking from experience; I did epically bad at college. I had to grow up and get my shit together before I succeeded.

[chilly furnace]

What makes you think I don't have my shit together?

[fringe sphinx]

I was talking about me.

[hearty island]

i did bad in my first year of college i had to transfer and change my major, shit happens

[gaunt rain]

@true harness bro is not human at all
reacted with 3 emojis in less than half a second

[fringe sphinx]

Yup, i wish more people knew this was typical. https://nces.ed.gov/FastFacts/display.asp?id=40

[hearty island]

i got my shit together later on and grinded like hell for internships and then i figured out a path

[gaunt rain]

again, who put 20 sec as timeout for this channel and why?

[white relic]

I did great in college. How much of what I learned in those 4 years do I use on a daily basis today? Most of what you learn about your job is learned on the job. Universities are not vocational training and the fact that yours didn't fully prepare you for your career doesn't mean it was a waste.

[hearty island]

universities teach you to learn under pressure… at least that’s what i think

[chilly furnace]

I'm not proud of it

[gaunt rain]

but when u r learning to gain skills, u just gain skills
u wont learn the basics
but through guided learning in universities, u'll learn basics (but there's no assurance that they'll level up ur skills)
and if u gain skills along with that, you'll be better than any self taught guy outside who didn't go for universities or any form of guided learning

gonna ping an admin to reduce the slowdown timer for this channel

[hearty island]

don’t do that, it’s like this for a reason

[fringe sphinx]

I think it’s about educational maturity: each year, the subjects tend towards theoretical/conceptual over applied. I love this discussion of mathematical maturity, and the idea that there’s a demonstrable difference between freshmen and seniors in terms of thought process. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_maturity (see progression)

[hearty island]

i definitely got better at learning topics over time

[azure heart]

We're happy with 20 seconds currently 🙂

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, same, grad school had a similar effect for me.

[hearty island]

i’m thinking of doing an MSBA - masters in biz analytics @ Baruch

[chilly furnace]

If they recind my degree for a refund, that's ok.

[hearty island]

but only a couple years after some practical work stuff

[fringe sphinx]

For your interests, this makes a lot of sense. And agree after some practical work: but, you could also just start right away and take one course a semester…. It would take a few years at that pace but you could chip away at it, whatever you like

[hearty island]

that’s true too

[gaunt rain]

well what about internships?
does that come up as a proof to say that im a skillful person?

[fringe sphinx]

That’s more or less how I did mine. I think I took a one year break, and then started taking classes.

[hearty island]

the thing about internships is that they mostly hire college students

[true harness]

or recently graduated college students

[hearty island]

right, that too

[gaunt rain]

im a college student

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, internships are 🔥 for a college students resume

[hearty island]

internships are great

[gaunt rain]

shit
well then, what about online free internships like forage?

[fringe sphinx]

Never heard.

[hearty island]

not a fan of forage, but you can use it as some kind of project

[gaunt rain]

they conduct it just like as a google forms

[hearty island]

i know it’s common for investment banks to do stuff on forage goldman sachs, jpm chase etc.

[gaunt rain]

and also, what about internships that accept requests and conduct only via online (video calls only)

[hearty island]

like a remote one? i did that last summer and i’ll be doing that this fall too

[white relic]

Well, good luck with that.
If you're not gainfully employed, your time would be better spent applying to open positions or working on projects for your portfolio

[gaunt rain]

but they're for free
they do give completion certificates
not stipend

[hearty island]

idk what forage offers for tech roles

[fringe sphinx]

Anything is better than nothing, I guess. I don’t have experience with those, but: internships are about getting -some- experience, it doesn’t have to be perfect

Omg, who requires a 400 word essay to apply? WTH..

[hidden bloom]

wait one sec

[gaunt rain]

so u put the the fire emoji just to say that its good to boost my skills
but not for boosting the chance to get a job?

[fringe sphinx]

I was just helping my son with college apps, and those stupid ‘why us’ essays were ridiculous

[hidden bloom]

kk now does it read fine?

[fringe sphinx]

Both.

[hidden bloom]

lol i think they just do it to make the number of applicants smaller - prevents spam applying

[hearty island]

it’s a good way to pad your resume till you get your actual internship.

[fringe sphinx]

Second paragraph, I like idea of saying you want in person, but feel like you could say more. Like: I want to commit myself to the role and are only looking for in person positions. And, maybe talk about how you plan/want/whatever to move to the city… that you have roots there or will be there whether or not they hire you.

[gaunt rain]

chat gippity?

[hidden bloom]

i dont have roots there but i rly wanna live there lol, i have mates there - but i feel like that is irrelevant to say

[fringe sphinx]

It does read a bit like a chatgpt text, with a lot of fluffy language (holistic, fruits of my labour , etc). Maybe talk about the company, the products, something that you couldn’t just swap their name with some other company.

[hidden bloom]

fruits of my l abour is what i wrote lolll

[gaunt rain]

or find a good prompt that makes it sound like human generated?

[fringe sphinx]

You could say: I am planning on moving to the city this summer/winter/etc and am looking for opportunities in London.

[hidden bloom]

that would be a lie tho im only planning to move if i get a job offer there

[fringe sphinx]

Rather than: “I like london and if you hire me, I’ll move there”

[gaunt rain]

just search for "chatgpt perplexity and burstiness prompt"

[fringe sphinx]

Maybe add ‘plain language’ to the prompt?

[gaunt rain]

¯_(ツ)_/¯
but its mostly known as what i said

LETS GOOO

[fringe sphinx]

Also I don’t understand first sentence. ‘In process of assuming my role’?

[hidden bloom]

kk so shld i just straight up lie? i will lol

[fringe sphinx]

‘Planning’ doesn’t seem quite like a lie. You plan is to get hired and move. Right?

[hidden bloom]

ill change assuming to starting

[fringe sphinx]

I took a wonderful copy editing class years ago, and it taught me to delete words to simplify the language.

“In process of starting” could just be: “I am starting a position as a research assistant….”

Second sentence : “this position” is ambiguous. Are you referring to the companies position, or the role you said in first sentence? And why are you looking for a job if you’re starting a research assistant position?

[hidden bloom]

"Furthermore, the location of the role is highly desirable to me, as I have outgrown Nottingham, finding it too small for my preferences and offering fewer opportunities compared to London. I plan to move to London for my placement year and as a result am looking specifically for opportunities within the city. " ?

[hearty island]

hmmmm still under review from UHG

[fringe sphinx]

I don't like negatives in interviews, much less a cover letter, like "outgrown Nottingham". I would simplify to: "The location of Company in <what part of london?> is also highly desirable to me. I plan to move to London for my placement year and as a result am looking specifically for opportunities within the city. " or something like that.

[hidden bloom]

so just : Furthermore, the location of the role is highly desirable to me, as I plan to move to London for my placement year and am specifically looking for opportunities within the city.

[fringe sphinx]

(also, remove "as a result"... ""The location of Company in <what part of london?> is also highly desirable to me, as I plan to move to London for my placement year"

(also pro tip: it's nearly impossible to edit your own work...)

[hidden bloom]

Furthermore, the location of the role is highly desirable to me, as I am specifically looking for opportunities within London since I plan to move to there.

this is the most concise ^?

[fringe sphinx]

Finally, your third paragraph doesn't have anything specific. What prior relevant experience? Do you know anyone at the company? Is there some researcher there that you can mention by name? Any published work you can find? etc.

[fringe sphinx]

The conciseness is there. I would suggest being a little more specific. Do you know the exact location of the role?

[hidden bloom]

its in central but obviously i wouldn't live in central cus its too expensive so its irrelevant including that

[fringe sphinx]

Oh, if it were canary wharf or something, I'd call that out

But still: I think it's good to call out specifics rather than write it as if any London company could be swapped in here.

Like: "Company's location in central London is also highly desirable to me, as I plan to London for my placement year" (or however you want to phrase it).

as someone who doesn't know london well, you could argue that central london gives you the most options, since it's "easily" accessible from any outer borough (I might be totally wrong here tho)

[hidden bloom]

k i will make it specific

[fringe sphinx]

Generally, that's my point: This is your chance to say something that's not on your resume. Something that connects your research to the company, something about the company that is groundbreaking that you want to be part of, something good you've heard about the company, or positive impact the company is making on the world, etc.

Good luck!

[hidden bloom]

they ask for cl and cv in one document? shld i put cl before cv?

[hearty island]

ubs is reviewing my application, let's see what happens

[fringe sphinx]

Yah, "cl" = cover letter, it goes first.

[hidden bloom]

did u take the online assessment?

[hearty island]

i did the culture match thing yesterday for two positions

[hidden bloom]

so did i but im required to take the stupid cognitive test as well

[hearty island]

strange, they didn't require that of me. maybe that means i already got rejected bahaha. or the role didn't require it

best of luck tho

[hidden bloom]

it was titled 'junior talent cogntiive asssement' and it was the second link in the email. they sent me one email with 'culture match' link and then the cogntiive test

[hearty island]

was it the asset management role? what role was it?

[hidden bloom]

nahhh

[hearty island]

ah, ok. yeah idk what the fuck i was thinking applying for asset management hahaha (no background in finance)

i mean i am a biz student so i guess it's applicable

i have taken two finance classes

oh, oh shit

[hearty island]

they did send a cognitive assesment yesterday in the same email, i didn't see it

[hidden bloom]

shld i start it with 'dear .. hiring manager' the dots being the company name?

[fringe sphinx]

I don’t see a lot of cover letters. That seems right to me. But def ask someone in UK.

[turbid bobcat]

I'm feeling a bit uneasy, I'm unsure if I'm gonna get noticed in the SF market. I'm building a strong portfolio of projects and am paying to get my CV reviewed in detail as I iterate it, but is there any other ways of maximizing my chances ? Or at least, any way of validating if I'm on the right track ?

[gritty rivet]

You can get feedback on your resume and you can apply for jobs and that's about it. Practicing mock interviews and LeetCode won't hurt. You'll know you're job ready when you get a job. And in this market right now, it barely matters how good you are, expect it to take time and persistence

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm projects don't help ? I'm dividing my time between projects and leetcode, but if projects don't help I can focus on leetcode.

[vapid jay]

I found out that a short description on your resume of your projects may help
It seems that nobody does actually checks portfolios

[fringe sphinx]

Nobody checks at the screening phase, but post-screening (when you're in the interview loop), I'll look... usually briefly but I'll still click.

But more importantly, I'll definitely ask questions about the project. And you can tell when someone doesn't know.

[vapid jay]

I got job offers without having them looking at my portfolio/webiste
How do I know? I literally removed everything in the site, and letted a blank white page
Nobody asked questions

[fringe sphinx]

Yes, but didn't you land an apprentice job, iirc? Not saying anything wrong, but that's likely a different interview process than a corporate SWE interview loop.

[turbid bobcat]

Uhm. The stuff I have is pretty unique though, surely that will give me some points.

[vapid jay]

Indeed... That may explain it?
I Still comsider it pretty weird

[turbid bobcat]

I really don't want to only work on leetcode D :

[fringe sphinx]

I mean, it doesn't surprise me, but I certainly wouldn't advise it. I certainly ask people to explain the projects and decisions involved, even if I don't click or look at it... and it's very common for people to have zero depth when talking about a project. I see a lot of people pad their resume with "I did SQL and Pandas and data sciency stuff", but have nearly no knowledge of what they claim to have done/etc.

[vapid jay]

If someone is asking why I did something like that
It's because I was assumed by recruiters to also know insert here random skills
So I was wondering if they were even reading the resume or the website