questions-2

[willow socket]

die du liebst und gern tust

[ebon stirrup]

ah ok so its conjugated?

[willow socket]

yes

[ebon stirrup]

vielen Dank^^

[normal dawn]

Hallo, wie man den Satz "open doors to sth" auf Deutsch sagen kann?
Ich weiß ein Satz "ein Fenster zu etw öffnen" aber ich weiß nicht, ob das richtig genutzt werden kann ?

[normal dawn]

Does it have the same meaning, please i want to know

[mortal prawn]

Hey man

How are you?

is there anybody can help me to work in German?

[left rose]

i am also in the same boat help

[dense obsidian]

https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/

[heady sonnet]

In “der Grund dafür sind”, why is it sind and not ist if it’s a singular reason?

[charred harbor]

Please don’t post the same question in multiple channels

[mighty pebble]

You’re right. „Der Grund“ is a singular thus „sind“ also should be a singular instead. The sentence therefore should look as follows: „Der Grund dafür ist …“

[charred harbor]

“Der Grund dafür sind die in letzter Zeit populär gewordenen Alcopops” war der ganze Satz

Nur zur Info xD

[heady sonnet]

I didn’t give enough context so it was right

[signal cipher]

Der brief ist geschreiben gewesen.

Is this a thing? Zustandpassive perfect

[jade hawk]

geschrieben, nicht geschreiben. Aber ja. Andere Beispiele:

[signal cipher]

This sounds a bit weird. War geschrieben sounds better

It sounds like it was was written

[jade hawk]

and look at futur 2

gewesen and sein next to each other

[acoustic tendon]

geschrieben worden

[teal cliff]

irre ich mich oder wäre futur 2 nicht „das buch wird gelesen worden sein“ – kenn mich mit deutscher grammatik leider nicht sooo gut aus, aber das klingt iwi ein bisschen... normaler? lol

[acoustic tendon]

das ist Zustandpassiv

[teal cliff]

oder ist das dann passiv, lol

ja hab ich gerade bemerkt

[jade hawk]

Was du geschrieben hast, ist Vorgangspassiv

[acoustic tendon]

Vorgangspassiv > Zustandspassiv

[jade hawk]

Ich muss zustimmen.

[plush pelican]

This kind of compound tense happens more often when you have to use Konjunktiv 1 and thus can't use Präteritum for "sein"

For example:

Ich war die ganze Nacht zu Hause.

Er hat gesagt, er sei die ganze Nacht zu Hause gewesen.

So for your example, a guy could say: Der Brief war schon geschrieben, bevor ich losfuhr.

And then someone else says, "Er hat gesagt, der Brief sei schon geschrieben gewesen, bevor er losgefahren sei.

[signal cipher]

Good explanation. Thank you.

[signal cipher]

But this is not passive

Oh other is

I forgot the thing which I have read a minute ago

[hushed dawn]

Hallo
Guten Tag

Wie sagt man das Zeichen "@" auf Deutsch ?

[fervent kernel]

"ät"

wie im Englischen

[hushed dawn]

okayy

[fervent kernel]

also ausgeschrieben ist es natürlich auch at

Als Dadjoke gehen auch die hier

[broken geode]

question: what's the difference in the use of weil and denn? i know there's some differences in the word order, but other than that does it matter which one i use? is one more common than the other? is it a regional thing? or is it literally just "use whichever one, as long as the word order is gramatically correct"

[willow socket]

use whichever one, as long as the word order is gramatically correct

denn is used less often to start a sentence

[broken geode]

got it, vielen dank

[hollow estuary]

Can anybody do a piece of my hundred page german homework it is about verbs that start with ab, an, ein etc. anybody please? 😭 (only one exercise)

[plain umbra]

@timber yacht Please make sure to ping mod role in future and not individual mods.

[plain umbra]

Asking for people to do your homework is against the rules.

[fervent kernel]

hundred pages?

[final sand]

In English we sometimes say "anyway..." when returning to a topic after digressing (mainly in informal speech). Is there a German equivalent?

[left salmon]

"anyway" is kinda popular in youth and informal speech, so you can most likely stick to the english word

[dense obsidian]

wie dem auch sei

[warped oriole]

Wie auch immer.

[warped oriole]

Aber na ja.

[icy flax]

Was hört ihr, dass der Typ hier sagt? https://youtu.be/nphc1CeB4NU?t=103
Im Untertitel steht "erfreuen", aber ich höre

Ein Punkt, den ich unbedingt positiv verfreuen möchte, ist die absolute geniale Dokumentation.

[eager agate]

I know I'm asking a stupid question but I just do not know the answer 😅

Why is it
"Statement des Bundespräsidenten"

and not
"Statement des Bundespräsident"?

[sharp inlet]

I've got a huge test tomorrow in german. I am having really trouble learning. I had spanish for three years and I never understood it, not a single sentence or word. I speak English/Norwegian. I would really appriciate it if anyone can just shoot me a message and help me build basic sentences and how the sentence building works. Best regards 17 year old guy. (apologise if this is the wrong channel, new around here)

[jade hawk]

Not a stupid question. Präsident is one of the weak nouns (N-Deklination), which get a different ending in cases other than nominative
https://www.deutschmm.com/n-deklination-complete-list/
https://www.deutschmm.com/n-deklination-complete-guide/

[delicate tiger]

"erwähnen" wär das richtige Wort, keine Ahnung was der da verhaspelt hat.

[eager agate]

wow... thanks ._. that's gonna take a long time for me to learn 😅

[jade hawk]

btw, masculine and neuter nouns which aren't a part of N-Deklination also get a different ending in Genitiv. -es or -s. Statement des Liedermachers = Singer-songwriter's statement

[sharp inlet]

Can someone in private message explain how to build sentences?

[eager agate]

ahh danke! I still struggle with Genitiv 😅

[eager agate]

Ich kann dir keine Nachrichten schicken... wenn du noch die Grundlagen lernst, kann ich dich vielleicht helfen?

[willow socket]

dir helfen

[eager agate]

danke, und deshalb wird vielleicht jemand anders besser 😅

[willow socket]

"how to build sentences" is an extraordinarily broad and arbitrarily complex topic. Is there something specific you'd like to know? Have you had a look in #resources or pinned messages?

[icy flax]

Danke, directing, sehr komisch das was er sagt

[willow socket]

wäre statt wird

[sharp inlet]

How to bend? verbs and how the "The" and the "a,an" works

How the ich,du,er,sie,es etc. goes along with that

[signal cipher]

First I should say you can study however you want. But I suggest to study from a source and ask the details you didn’t understand or the things you want to know extra. Explaining complete topics by chat is very hard. I don’t think anyone here would/could do that.

[willow socket]

conjugation: https://germanwithlaura.com/verb-conjugations/
definite and indefinite articles: https://germanwithlaura.com/definite-indefinite-articles/
cases: https://germanwithlaura.com/noun-cases/
german pronouns: https://germanwithlaura.com/personal-pronouns/

and no, this isn't an ad for german with Laura, she just apparently has a ton of introductory German articles.

also, as before: #resources
these topics and a few more constitute a fair portion of the whole A1 level

[sharp inlet]

Thank you alot. I really appriciate it

[willow socket]

you might consider a course, a YouTube series, a book, etc

[sharp inlet]

Any reccomendations

[delicate tiger]

faq nicos

[stoic mauve]

Nicos

Nicos Weg is a free online program aimed at helping people learn German. It includes video, audio, text, grammar explanations, notes, vocabulary, and exercises. It also includes very useful cultural and bureaucratic information, such as how to open a bank account, while teaching you the relevant grammar and vocabulary.

It’s fairly popular and well-recommended, but keep in mind that you can’t learn a language with only one resource, even if it’s a good one!

You can find the courses here: https://learngerman.dw.com/en/overview/

You can also see various other courses for learners by dw.com here: https://www.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-2469/

[delicate tiger]

this is often recommended

[languid garnet]

I recommend Nicos weg + anki at the same time as you go through it. search dw weg on the shared anki flashcards and download them

[shadow sky]

Difference between macht and ist?

ex: Ein hund macht viel arbeit
Why would it not be ist?

[crisp hull]

Macht is to do, ist is to be.

[shadow sky]

is macht in relation to arbeit then?

[charred harbor]

Yes

[steel patrol]

Could someone please explain how to use „hierfür“ correctly? I’ve already encountered it and looked it up but I don’t think I understand

[plush pelican]

Based on what I can see from googling:

https://de.hinative.com/questions/637461
https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/hierfür

"hierfür" is like "dafür", except that it's like "for this here" instead of "for that there", so a "here" versus "there" distinction.

"Hierfür" würde man benutzen, wenn sich diese Sache direkt bei dem Sprecher befindet. "Dafür", wenn die Sache weit weg ist. Beispielsweise:

"Ich habe hierfür sehr viel gelernt." -> Das könnte ein Schüler sagen, der gerade einen Test schreibt, oder kur davor/danach.
"Ich habe dafür sehr viel gelernt." -> Das könnte ein Schüler sagen, wenn er sich an einen Test erinnert, den er geschrieben hat.

Eigentlich kann man "dafür" immer benutzen, "hierfür" allerdings nur, wenn diese Sache nicht lange her ist, odef in der Nähe ist.

You can always replace "hierfür" with "dafür", it seems

but you can't always replace "dafür" with "hierfür"

because "hierfür" requires that the thing you're talking about be close to the speaker, close in terms of time or close in terms of geographical distance, etc.

[steel patrol]

Ok, so it can’t be used in the figurative sense at all/when the thing in question isn’t a physical object?

Somehow it sounds quite formal to me

That word

[plush pelican]

well, in English you still sometimes use "therefore", but you almost never hear "herefore", you might be making a connection there.

[plush pelican]

I didn't say that, and I don't think that's true

The example the native speaker gave was, "Ich habe hierfür sehr viel gelernt", when talking about a test that they had just taken.

[steel patrol]

I see

[plush pelican]

This website has more example sentences: https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/hierfür

[steel patrol]

I think once mostly heard it im übertragenen Sinne? I think that’s what I’m more confused about, how to do that

[plush pelican]

[1] Meine Schwester möchte abnehmen. Hierfür hat sie einen Diät-Plan erstellt.
[1] „Dessen Mitglieder sollten sich in erster Linie um ein Ende der Straffreiheit in der DRK bemühen. Die Unterstützung eines kongolesischen nationalen Dialogs über den Bericht wäre hierfür ein erster Schritt.“[1]
[1] „Vielmehr sei der Deutschunterricht in diesem Bereich im Wesentlichen von Lehrern erteilt worden, die sich im Rahmen einer sogenannten Sprachkundigenprüfung hierfür qualifiziert und ein Sprachniveau auf den Leveln B2 oder C1 besessen hätten.“[2]
[2] Welches Honorar hast du hierfür bekommen?
[3] „"Wir müssen offen zugeben, dass wir hierfür noch keine schlüssige Erklärung haben", sagte Reinders.“[3]
[3] „Ein Beispiel hierfür ist die medizinische Behandlung des Parkinson-Syndroms.“[4]

[steel patrol]

One second

Right, so I think I’m still not 100% with it, but it‘s making more sense now for sure

Thank you once more @plush pelican 🤍

[plush pelican]

My sister wants to lose weight. To this end, she's made a diet plan.
Whose members should first of all strive for an end of the immunity from prosecution in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. The support of a Congolese national dialogue about the report would be a first step for this purpose/to this end.
(skip sentence, that's complicated 😅 )
What fee did you receive for this?
We often have to admit that we still don't have a conclusive explanation for this.
An example for this/of this is the medical handling of Parkinson Syndrome.

[final sand]

When German borrows an English word like this, would people say it with an English accent or a German one? I notice "anyway" has an English w sound that doesn't exist in German

[elder oak]

We say it like an English person would do

Although, some people might put a little harsh pronunciation on the w

[plush pelican]

I think it just varies. Germans will say "sorry" with a German pronunciation, for example.

[steel patrol]

Afaik English words in German are always pronounced with a German accent (something that sounds a bit more American than British for sure, but not quite). It’s quite cute though and imo saying them with an actual British or American accent sounds more weird than anything lol

[whole portal]

Changing intonation and everything mid sentence for one word often sounds weird or straight up pretentious unless you're a native speaker of that language

Yes I know you were in italy once please stop conducting an orchestra any time we talk about food

[willow socket]

On the one hand I see how it can come off as pretentious, on the other, if I have to pronounce a German word while speaking English I'm pronouncing it with a German accent. English pronunciation of German words just sounds too cringe for me to live with myself.

[left salmon]

Depends on how much and for how long that word has been used in german
Words that have just been introduced to the youth language will typically sound more english i think
But it also depends on the speaker tbh

[steel patrol]

Guess it’s a matter of taste 🤷‍♀️

[spiral loom]

How would we say "They're members of the LGBTQ?" "Die sind Mitglieder der/des? LGBTQ"?

[whole portal]

Bist du queer

[spiral loom]

Nein

Aber ich bin nicht sicher um wie ich diese Akronym korrekt benutzen kann

[whole portal]

Das war die Antwort lol

Du kannst natürlich auch irgendwie sagen "Gehörst du zu ..." oder "Identifizierst du dich als ..." aber "bist du queer" ist halt kürzer

[spiral loom]

Es tut mir leid, ich meinte, welche Artikel soll in Genitiv sein der oder des? Ich war nicht deutlich mit meiner Frage.

[whole portal]

von

[timber yacht]

"Sind sie Mitglieder der LGBTQ-Gemeinschaft?"
"Gehören sie der LGBTQ-Community an?"
I'm thinking of "LGBTQ-Gemeinde" as a commonly used expression (not in a religious sense of course) but couldn't find much when googling the term. So it's probably better to stick to the examples above. 🙂

[plain umbra]

Does that term have any kind of negative connotation in German? Or is it exclusively for referring to LGBT people?

I mean negative like in English, where "queer" in the past meant something like "strange". But maybe in German it only took on the LGBT meaning.

[timber yacht]

It's only ever used referring to the topic of LGBTQ.
Only people with negative views of the LBGTQ movement will perceive it as something "negative", I suppose. The word "queer" is used mostly (and freely) among queer people themselves, I find.

[whole portal]

Well it's an English term that only came in use recently and exclusively for that meaning in German so that's it

[plain umbra]

That's what I assumed but I wanted to make sure.

[nova sparrow]

and as I have recently learned: young adults use the word gay instead of the german translations because of their negative connotation

[plush pelican]

How come you've only learned about this recently?

Are you not young, or had you just never really used terms related to LGBT before?

[nova sparrow]

not really young 😉

[fervent kernel]

why is this surprising

lgbtq really only is a thing since 3 years or so

[plush pelican]

lol

[fervent kernel]

I'm not joking

[willow socket]

What does it look like for lgbt?

[fervent kernel]

not much different but the slope is a bit more linear/higher since 2016

[glad quiver]

Hello

[plush pelican]

My dude, this is an artifact

The preferred term has changed over time

LGBT, to LGBTQ, to LGBTQIA+, etc etc

LGBT stuff has been in the national discussion for decades

not just in the US, but in many western countries

If you go back far enough, it also didn't always used to be called "LGBT", but instead "homosexuality"

or "gays and lesbians", where "gay" actually referred exclusively to gay men, much like the German term "schwul"

[fervent kernel]

In the US, the term has higher trend rates much earlier than in Germany (2010-2016). In Germany the all encompassing LGBT-term is still relatively recent (at least in mainstream discussion), before then it was mainly "gays, lesbians, homosexuals" and I think trans as well

[plush pelican]

Oh, I see, I misunderstood your point

[smoky raven]

In the sentence --And, as he saw the hell on earth he was in, he started spitting out rivers of sadness--, what would be the translation for the word --as--??

[timber yacht]

als

[smoky raven]

ty

[hushed dawn]

Lassen Sie uns sagen, dass Kaffee, scharfe Gewürze verschlechtern "GERD". Das heißt der Rückfluss von Mageninhalt und galligem Inhalt.

Dann kann man den Kaffee und scharfe Gewürze als "Noxen" bezeichnen ?

in diesem Fall ?

oder Sagt man Noxen bloß für Zigaretten und Drogen ?

Und noch eine Frage bitte.

Das Sodbrennen bezieht sich auf den Schmerz, ja ? Während saures Aufstoßen eher auf den Rückfluss von Mageninhalt ?

[delicate tiger]

"Noxe(n)" ist ein Fachbegriff, den die allermeisten NIcht-Mediziner nicht verstehen werden

[hushed dawn]

Ach , Okayy. Ich wusste das nicht.
Danke

und was ist mit Sodbrennen und saures Aufstoßen ? sind die auch Fachbegriffe ?

[delicate tiger]

"Sodbrennen" nein, "saures Aufstoßen" eher ja

[old fossil]

kann man "anreißen" verwenden, als Bedeutung "ein thema erwähnen" oder "auf ein thema eingehen"

[timber yacht]

#questions message

[granite spade]

Ich bin kein Lehrer, sondern Doktorand ***or ***sondern ein Doktorand ?

[plush pelican]

Ich meine, normalerweise benutzt man keinen bestimmten Artikel mit dem Beruf/Titel als Studierender, oder?

[granite spade]

ignore that query, someone i was speaking to replied to me ein doktorand! and made me question my non-use of the article, which is right, but they've since clarified that they didn't mean to suggest it was wrong

[timber yacht]

Beide funktionieren.
"Ich bin kein Lehrer, sondern ein Doktorand."
"Ich bin nicht Lehrer, sondern Doktorand."
Dies wären, denke ich, die "saubersten" Konstruktionen.

[plush pelican]

If you just say "Ich bin (ein) Doktorand" on its own, is there normally an indefinite article?

[timber yacht]

If you just state your profession, then no.

Ich bin Doktorand.

[plush pelican]

So what you're saying is, the indefinite article is getting added in there in order to "balance out" the "kein" in the first clause?

What a deeply annoying mini-rule,

How far does this "balancing out" go?

Ich habe kein Geld, sondern eine Milch?

Presumably that doesn't work

[timber yacht]

Die Alternativen sind nicht falsch, und im Alltag würde das wohl im Sprachfluss untergehen.

[plush pelican]

Ich meine, vieles, was im Alltag untergehen würde, ist nicht korrekt, 😅

[timber yacht]

On many levels^^

Ich überlege, inwieweit das "balancing out" als Regel auch anderswo zur Anwendung kommt.

[plush pelican]

Gilt das nur für "nicht X, sondern Y", oder auch für andere zweiteilige Konnektoren?

Ich bin zwar kein Lehrer, aber ich bin (ein) Student

Ich bin entweder kein Lehrer oder kein Student, nicht beides.

Einerseits bin ich kein Lehrer. Andererseits bin ich (ein) Student.

Sie ist sowohl eine gute Köchin als auch eine gute Studentin.

wenn es andere Adjektive gibt, ändert das was?

[timber yacht]

Nach bisherigem Nachdenken würde ich sagen, die Symmetrie führt klar zum besseren Stil.

Ich bin sowohl Köchin als auch Studentin.
Ich bin sowohl eine Köchin als auch eine Studentin.

Weder bin ich Lehrer noch Schüler.

Mal schauen, ob mir noch Gebiete einfallen, auf denen das zu gelten scheint, die nichts mit Berufen zu tun haben.

[uneven leaf]

dazu eine Anmerkung, dass das eigentlich selbst im Hauptsatz vom Beispiel hier einfach anders ist, wie die anderen Beispiele, nämlich weil weder "Geld" noch "Milch" zählbar sind

[plush pelican]

Darf man "kein Geld" sagen?

[uneven leaf]

ist schon in Ordnung, aber man muss sich halt überlegen: ein Geld gibt es nicht

[plush pelican]

Es lauert da drin irgendwo ein Witz, 😅

[charred harbor]

Genau wie im Englischen :D

"I have money" not "I have a money"

[uneven leaf]

genau

[plush pelican]

I don't have any money

nicht "I don't have a money"

[uneven leaf]

I have no money

goddamn keyboard shenanigans

[plush pelican]

that's colloquial and slightly wrong

[charred harbor]

I ain't got no dough my bro

[plush pelican]

in the way that a lot of colloquial things are, 😅

[uneven leaf]

it's still used commonly and illustrates a similar grammar structure to the german version

[plush pelican]

Also, was denkst du: Wo liegen die Grenzen dieser Ausbalancierung?

Ausgleichung?

[uneven leaf]

ich würde sagen: wenn beide Nomen zählbar sind, dann sollte man das so wie gesagt anwenden

[plush pelican]

Berufe sind also zählbar?

obwohl sie normalerweise keinen unbestimmten Artikel tragen?

[uneven leaf]

die Berufe an sich nicht sondern die Menschen, die das machen

[plush pelican]

Ich meine

[uneven leaf]

ein Lehrer ist ja zählbar

man kann ja zwei Lehrer zählen

[plush pelican]

zählbar, aber normalerweise ohne unbestimmten Artikel 🤔

[uneven leaf]

zwei Geld oder zwei Milch eher nicht

[plush pelican]

Da?

[plain umbra]

What is?

[uneven leaf]

man kann ja entweder Lehrer sein, ein Lehrer sein, oder der Lehrer sein xD

[plush pelican]

"I have no money"

"I don't have any money" is the entirely correct way of saying it

[plain umbra]

What's wrong about it?

[plush pelican]

Now we're getting into English grammar terms,

As I understand it, negating uncountable nouns in English means you can't use "no"

you use "don't...any"

But you can say, "There is no milk" 🤔

https://www.examenglishforfree.com/more-rules-for-using-countable-and-uncountable-nouns/

😵‍💫

[plain umbra]

Hmm, are you sure? Maybe you're confusing it with a different rule.

[plush pelican]

I am...not sure

To me, "don't have any" sounds more correct

but I've not studied English grammar like I have German

I could be wrong

[charred harbor]

I’d probably agree that “I do not have money” sounds more formally correct, for what it’s worth

[plush pelican]

wait, you left out the "any"

[charred harbor]

I don’t think it matters for what you’re discussing, no?

[plain umbra]

I had a search and everything I found says that it's correct to use it. However, I saw some comments on a thread saying that it can sound unnatural in some contexts due to being less commonly used, especially because the "I have no money" structure is used more often for emphasis. Basically, both are just two ways to correctly say the same thing, but one or the other may sound better depending on the exact context.

[uneven leaf]

"I do not have money" sounds like you're making fun of english lol

also fwiw I personally think "I have no money" is fine

[plush pelican]

One issue is that "do not" without a contraction is emphasized, right? So that's another change that can also throw off our interpretations of how "natural" something sounds

Btw, this is a great time for a Taken quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZOywn1qArI

"I don't have money"

[uneven leaf]

yeah maybe it's the contraction but I think it still sounds better with "any" in there

[plush pelican]

I do, too

[uneven leaf]

even "I don't have money" sounds... idk how to put it... maybe overly formal?

[plush pelican]

This could also be a regional difference, though

[plain umbra]

Again, what sounds better is going to depend on context.

[uneven leaf]

like too formal for everyday use

[plain umbra]

The question was just about if it's correct or not to use "no" with uncountable nouns, which I would say we confirmed is correct.

[uneven leaf]

I think so yeah

also yes argus, teachers are countable

and in german too

teachers don't become fluid just because of the language you're speaking xD

[plush pelican]

It's just weird that German has 3 categories:

countable
uncountable
countable (but also we ignore the singular, unless we're negating them)

[uneven leaf]

I think the third category is just the first category honestly

[plush pelican]

Ich bin ein Mann

Ich bin Lehrer

[uneven leaf]

unless you can come up with an example where you can't use the singular at all

which neither of those are

yes, you can use Lehrer without the article, but you can use the article too

Ich bin ein Lehrer

[plush pelican]

but that's at the very least seen as weird, isn't it?

not as correct

[uneven leaf]

depends on context

e.g. "der Mann kommt" and "der Lehrer kommt" both have to use the article

"Lehrer kommt" makes no sense

[plush pelican]

Btw, a quick look of rules of English with countable and uncountable nouns shows me that I may be sitting in a glass house throwing stones on this issue, 😅

[uneven leaf]

(although it can be fine in everyday speech cause you can just drop stuff sometimes, it's strictly speaking incorrect)

[plush pelican]

You're distinguishing countable versus uncountable nouns based on whether they use a definite article?

die Milch ist sauer.

[charred harbor]

Unless there was someone with the name Lehrer

[uneven leaf]

try substituting the indefinite article in the examples though

it still works

"ein Mann kommt" and "ein Lehrer kommt" are both correct

[uneven leaf]

I guess lol

[plush pelican]

That just makes the mystery of why Germans don't use the indefinite article for job titles weirder

[uneven leaf]

I'm really sorry to do this to you

but

vibes

[plush pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-gif-21922016

[uneven leaf]

it's all vibes all the way down

[plush pelican]

Every time you say, "vibes", I'm just going to interpret that as, "You should go out and read some more German sentences and absorb the language intuitively, and that will help."

[uneven leaf]

yes exactly

see you're starting to get me

[charred harbor]

Not the smoothest pick up line

[uneven leaf]

lol

[uneven leaf]

if only I could apply my own advice and stop being frustrated with my own language learning progress though 😭

[plush pelican]

What do you have left to learn?

[uneven leaf]

not german lol, japanese

[plush pelican]

What are you working on?

oh

[uneven leaf]

I've finished german

100% speedrun

[charred harbor]

I just see it as part of the construction
Like why “als” doesn’t like indefinite articles I have no idea either

[plush pelican]

@uneven leaf Wenn man vom Teufel spricht: #1305300422159892550 message

[plush pelican]

wait, what?

[uneven leaf]

geht beides glaub ich

idk how to explain it though 😅

[charred harbor]

“Ich sehe dich nur als Freund”

Even though we’d say “as a friend” there in English

My point was I just learn it as part of the individual construction and don’t question it

[plush pelican]

Is "Mitarbeiter" like a Beruf where you avoid the indefinite article sometimes?

That might explain going for "nicht" rather than "keine"

[uneven leaf]

in this case you could almost consider "Haustier" a Beruf

[plush pelican]

Ich bin Mitarbeiter or Ich bin ein Mitarbeiter?

[uneven leaf]

"Ich bin Mitarbeiter*in"

but you could also say stuf like "er ist ein Mitarbeiter bei meiner Firma" with or without the article

both sound fine

and "er ist ein Mitarbeiter von mir" sounds better with the article imo

[plush pelican]

Okay, now tell the person in that post 😛

[uneven leaf]

you can link them to here if you want but honestly I don't think I can simplify it to "a person at A level german could understand" level

[plush pelican]

lol, okay

[uneven leaf]

so I'll just end up confusing them

[plush pelican]

To be clear, though

Basementality said it's because of zweiteiliger Konnekter "nicht X, sondern Y"

But you can also do "kein X, sondern Y", right?

Ich bin kein Lehrer, sondern ein Student der Natur 🌳 ☮️ ❤️

Ich bin kein Mann, sondern eine Frau

[uneven leaf]

ahhhhhhh, it's so context dependent

[uneven leaf]

you need the article for this

[uneven leaf]

I think this is fine without

[plush pelican]

you mean that is fine without "ein", but the "kein" is still there, right?

[uneven leaf]

yes the kein is still there

[plush pelican]

My question was just, "you can do kein X, sondern Y" as a zweiteiliger Konnektor, it doesn't have to be "nicht X, sondern Y"

[uneven leaf]

yes, same rules apply as normal nicht vs kein

but yes

[plush pelican]

cause it sounded like Basementality was saying it has to be "nicht X, sondern Y"

[plush pelican]

Well, now I have a whole other thing to worry about that I didn't know I had to worry about before,

on top of being friendzoned 🤣

[uneven leaf]

don't worry argus, you'll get plenty of practice on this server

😜

[icy flax]

Bei einem TV-Show spricht der Moderator von ehemaligen führenden Mitglieder einer gewissen Gemeinschaft Deutschlands. Er bezieht sich dann auf diese Leute, die jetzt Rentner bzw nicht mehr so aktiv sind, und dabei nennt er sie "diese faltigen Freaks". Warum dieses Wortwahl? Ich glaub, es ist wohl daher, dass Menschen je älter eine fältigere Haut haben, aber bin mir nicht sicher. Ich benutzte dieses Wort nie und musste tatsächlich nach seiner Bedeutung suchen. Findet ihr dasselbe wie ich?

[plush pelican]

Es ist auch stabreimend, alliterative, "faltigen Freaks"

[plush pelican]

ja, "wrinkly", man ist "wrinkly", wenn man Rentner ist

[eager agate]

I suck with declension...

Why did the author write "Der 20. Deutsche Bundestag" in the paragraph, but "20. Deutscher Bundestag" for the title?

Both of these are nominative, right? And since Der Bundestag is masculine... in my mind both should end with -er

My hunch (if you could even call it that) is that this has something to do with strong/weak adjectives, which I do not get yet at all

[plush pelican]

adjectives change their endings depending on what comes in front of them

https://www.germanveryeasy.com/adjective-declension

[eager agate]

Thanks I will give that a read! 👍

[eager agate]

Thank you!!

Ugh why does this have to be so complicated 😭

[eager agate]

Okay one follow up question... why, under Dativ, do both Mann and Kind have (e) following them?

I suppose the same with plural as well, but with "n"

[plush pelican]

In older German, you used to add an -e ending to (Dative, Singular)

This is something that has died out in the past 50-100 years

But you will still see it in fixed expressions

such as "im Laufe der Zeit"

[eager agate]

Ah okay, interesting

[plush pelican]

or "nach Hause"

[eager agate]

Ohhh okay, I never even thought about why it was said that way lol

[plush pelican]

On the other hand, the (Dative, Plural) rule is still verb much active

You very much still do "mit den Männern"

[eager agate]

Okay I was not familiar with that

Thanks!

[wanton halo]

Hallo

[sly bluff]

Gute frage

[wanton halo]

Lol I asked nothing

[plush pelican]

This channel is for questions, they mean

the fact that you asked nothing, is precisely what they're pointing out

[wanton halo]

Oh I see

[plush pelican]

@signal cipher Something I didn't realize: apparently, genitive objects (including with a definite article) count as verbal complements, Verbgefährte, and go to the right of location adverbs: https://www.reddit.com/r/German/comments/1gobq57/comment/lwjmuzd/

You so rarely encounter genitive objects that I just hadn't thought about it

[signal cipher]

Danke schön

[left salmon]

i would think though its a weird construction of the sentence
keine sounds more preferable or at least i would always say kein rather than nicht in this context

[regal wave]

Me too. Although the "nicht" is grammatically not wrong, it feels like it floats in some kind of contextual limbo. "keine" makes more sense once we speak about real entities in the real world, if this makes any sense. Its difficult to explain, since this is a purely feeling (and hermeneutics)-based impression.

[left salmon]

yeah exactly
its just a native speaker kind of feel haha

[regal wave]

its a bit like, replace "Mitarbeiter" (or "Haustiere") with "Autos" and nicht or not-nicht is fine (except that it makes no sense lol), but...

Basically, "nicht Haustiere" in that sentence (about Papageien) makes sense if we speak about Haustiere (=concept A) as an empty signifier (a container that can mean anything we want).

because now it becomes "not abstract entity A" (and now "nicht" makes perfect sense)

Das ist etwa mein Problem 🙂

Sobald ich dem Satz allen Sinn nehme, ist das einfach egal.

[regal wave]

...I went for a walk and thought about this, and I cannot think of a concrete case where "nicht" feels more natural than "keine". Does anyone have one?

[delicate crag]

Das ist nicht schwer?

[regal wave]

In the context of the example sentence this entire conversation is building on?

[delicate crag]

What-

No I was just

[regal wave]

It is "Die Papageien sind nicht Haustiere, sondern Mitarbeiter."

[delicate crag]

go easy on me I'm only a level 2 Deutscher

[regal wave]

yeah, and I'm Native and I can't explain to you why "keine" would be more appropriate here (because its grammatically not wrong but no German would ever say this sentence), so this is interesting.

[delicate crag]

Or are you talking about sentences where either one can be used?

[regal wave]

yes.

[delicate crag]

Oh

I see

Well in that case

[regal wave]

They can but 0% of Germans would use the ex. sentence. (but its not wrong)

But I can't tell you why no one would use the ex. sentence.

So I wait for someone who maybe could tell me why 😄

[delicate crag]

I find it interesting that in some sentences the where either word can be used interchangeably, but in doing so force-changes the structure of the sentence and differs the meaning completely.

„Das ist nicht mein Problem“
„Das ist kein Problem für mich“

https://youtube.com/shorts/wJZ8LRZH8ns?si=z0sGOql1TJZHuYpl

though, looking at my original thought, I jus had a brain fart
🧠💨

[crisp marlin]

it lowkey might be due to countability? i'm guessing here tbh but there's something similar in french iirc

like. "Haustiere" is a countable object, so you use "kein(e)"

whereas in something like "ich mag malen nicht", "malen" (verb) isn't countable. the inverse is also true: ich mag keine Malen force-changes malen into a noun and changes the meaning

ich mag malen nicht --> i don't like to paint
ich mag keine Malen --> i don't like (any) paintings

[plush pelican]

We had a discussion earlier about all of this with a different example sentence, where countability was interesting

"Ich bin kein Lehrer, sondern ein Doktorand."
"Ich bin nicht Lehrer, sondern Doktorand."

[crisp marlin]

oh that is interesting....

i hadn't even thought of that, yeah, but i would absolutely use/not use ein depending on kein vs nicht

the meaning is also ever-so-slightly different

huh

idk if it's just me, but imo "ich bin kein Lehrer" sounds much more vehement/stern

[regal wave]

But in contemporary German, the former ver. modified to "Ich bin kein Lehrer, sondern Doktorand." is just...normal.

Although after having typed this, I, indeed, do prefer "nicht Lehrer" for this sentence.

But it kinda depends on the context.

[regal wave]

That goes back to my initial intuition of "abstract concept" vs. "concrete real referent" 🤔

its like "Ich bin nicht Lehrer" is a nice statement, but in a real situation - which means someone would assume I, indeed, *am * a teacher, saying "Ich bin nicht Lehrer, sondern..." becomes wrong

because the conversation would be about "I am not X but Y"

I can't find a rule 😦

[left salmon]

I cant decide which one I like better tbh
I think Id say both although without the ein in the first sentence

[timber yacht]

Our feeling for what sounds more natural might also be influenced by resembling constructions like
"Ich bin nicht dies, sondern das."
"Ich bin nicht klein, sondern groß."
where you obviously can't replace nicht with kein.

✅ "Ich bin nicht klein, sondern groß."
✅ "Ich bin kein Kleiner, sondern ein Großer."
It's interesting how (again) the indefinite article seems to be required with kein. Nobody would say
❌ "Ich bin kein Kleiner, sondern Großer."
❌ "Ich bin nicht Kleiner, sondern Großer." (works if your name or profession is Großer)
❌ "Ich bin nicht ein Kleiner, sondern ein Großer."

[eager agate]

I'm hoping someone can help me interpret this title: "Alle(s) fürs Klima

I think it's a pun...

"Alle fürs Klima": Everyone for the climate

"Alles fürs Klima": Everything for the climate (i.e. it'll take everything we've got to protect the climate)

Am I on the right path? Or is "Alle(s)" just written like that due to a grammatical technicality? 😅

[timber yacht]

I think you're right. It's both.

[eager agate]

Cool! Thanks!

[normal dawn]

Small question. Is there a big difference between Selbstständigkeit and Eigenständigkeit ?

[timber yacht]

In everyday speech, selbstständig and eigenständig are used almost synonymously.
Technically,
eigenständig = on one's own responsibility
selbstständig = without outside help.

Selbstständigkeit can also be written as Selbständigkeit.
Selbstständigkeit can also mean somebody is self-employed, you cannot use Eigenständigkeit for that.

[normal dawn]

Ok i got it, thanks!

[timber yacht]

Sorry, had to edit the last two lines, st was missing once, now it makes sense 🙂

[left salmon]

wow
yes exactly

[normal dawn]

I've been digging at these 2 verbs but cant seem to find a big difference. Can anyone please explain verspüren and spüren

[willow socket]

https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/34049/difference-between-spüren-verspüren-empfinden-sich-fühlen-und-sich

[flint nimbus]

anyone has some good drills for u/ü/y pronounciation practice?

also for the different sch-like sounds, would be lovely

[sour idol]

I have a question. So mein is masculine (and neutral?) and meine is feminine (and plural?)... So would I use them like this?:

Mein bruder
Meine schwester

Those are referring to a man and a women, so is that the correct use? Also, Meine is plural, so would this also be correct?:

Meine bruder und schwester.

Though if mein is also neutral, couldn't I just say "Mein Schwester."? I knew the whole gender thing as an English speaker would confuse me lol.

[willow socket]

The gender of a 'real noun' (i.e. not a nominalised adjective or something) depends on the noun itself, not the gender of the person it's describing.
der Bruder is masculine, die Schwester is feminine. Hence Mein Bruder and meine Schwester. Note that the word 'Weib' which means 'woman' is neutral: das Weib. Just to show the gender is 'arbitrary'.

German plurals have their own form that you have to memorise. Plural of der Bruder is die Brüder --> meine Brüder. Plural of die Schwester is Schwestern --> meine Schwestern.

Mein is also used for neutral words in nominative. Not with feminine words. Mein Schwester is always wrong. However you could say 'mein Hemd' (my shirt) or 'mein Haus' (my house).

[sour idol]

Hmm, ok thank you. Would you recommend a place I can study the genders and plurals/neutrals?

I knew I was going to be confused by this part of the language, and I was just doing Duolingo to start off with, and ran into the two different words.

[fervent kernel]

Every normal dictionary should inform you about the gender and plural forms

I like Wiktionary but there might be ones which are more appropriate for beginners, or just book vocab

or are you more seeking information about the grammar surrounding these topics?

[gilded pecan]

hello, im 16 years old and from belgium. im looking for friendly people who would like to talk some german with me. im learning 3h german in a week and i actually just love the country and the language. you can send me private message.

[sour idol]

Oh, mostly the grammar. Duolingo seems ok for memorizing words, but doesn't explain the structure very well.

[willow socket]

#1065443550004781067

[fervent kernel]

I think there's a lot in #resources, one source I know is Lingolia

[charred harbor]

It is worth bearing in mind that that’s just for nominative case so what Lolo just said wouldn’t apply in lots of contexts

[icy flax]

1. "frau" wird hier statt "man" benutzt, weil es dabei meistens um weibliche Personnen geht. Darf es gesagt werden, es ist trotzdem noch Hochdeutsch?
2. Warum "hatte" statt "hätte"? Wegen der Wortsordnung weiß ich da wird "wenn frau (...) hatte" gemeint wird, aber immer wenn ich ein "wenn" durch ein Verb ersetzt sehe, ist das Verb in dem Gegenwart oder Konjuntiv. Geht es also auch für Präteritum / Perfekt?

Hatte frau Glück und einen Ganztagskitaplatz, der diesen Namen verdiente, dann hat sie mit der Grundschule möglicherweise Pech und eine Schule erwischr, in der an manchen Tagen nur drei bis vier Stunden Unterricht stattfinden und öfter Stunden ausfallen

3. Was bedeutet dieses "Föderalismus hin und her", etwa wie "be it w federalism or not"?

Föderalismus hin un der, es kann nicht sein, dass die Teilhabechancen vor allem von Müttern am Arbeitsmarkt davon abhängen, in welchem Bundesland ihr Kind eine Schule besucht (...) [das] muss auf die Bundesebene festgelegt werden.

[delicate tiger]

"frau" wird hier statt "man" benutzt, weil es dabei meistens um weibliche Personen geht. Darf es gesagt werden, es ist trotzdem noch Hochdeutsch?
Nein, du liest einen Text von Linksextremen, die außerhalb ihrer kleinen Bubble bestenfalls belächelt werden

[willow socket]

1. Wow lol. Auch wenn es stimmt, dass das nicht als Hochdeutsch gilt, will ich das aus Prinzip nicht bei der Meinung stehen lassen, dass alles außerhalb des konservativ geprägten Status-Quo als Linksextrem abzutun ist. Absurd.
2. bin mir nicht sicher
3. ich glaube, du hast das richtig verstanden. 'Föderalismus hin und her' -- 'auch wenn das System föderalistisch ist/sein soll, kann es nicht sein...' (federalism be damned)

[glacial grove]

Kann man hier eigentlich auch Zeichensetzung lernen oder nur die Sprache?

[uneven leaf]

1. Ist nicht hochdeutsch und ergibt auch nicht so viel Sinn. Ich verstehe zwar was damit gemeint ist, aber grammatikalisch funktionierts nicht so gut
2. ich schätze, das stammt von einer umgangssprachlichen Tendenz den Konjunktiv 2 mit der imperfekten Vergangenheitsform zu ersetzen. An sich ist das einfach nicht Hochdeutsch
3. genau wie lolo auch gesagt hat xD

[charred harbor]

mit der imperfekten Vergangenheitsform*

[uneven leaf]

ich sollte eigentlich öfter prüfen, ob ich die richtigen Artikel gewählt habe 😅

ich schreibe so oft sachen um und schaue nicht mehr nach, ob die Artikel noch passen

[icy flax]

Arelia, beim 2 hast du auch ja mehrmals solche Sätze gelesen, nicht wahr?

Gegenwart: ist es nicht bewusst, findet man einen anderen Weg
Konjuntiv II: gäbe es andere Alternativen, hätten wir sie umgesetzt

[icy flax]

Sie scheint wirklich zu wissen, wovon sie spricht. Ihr Punkt an dieser Stelle ist die Föderung von Betreuungsplätze statt Betreuungsgeld. Sie argumentiert, dass dass arme Frauen durch bezahlbare und gute Kitas/Grundschule mehr Stunden am Tag arbeiten können und dadurch das Armutsrisiko sinkt. Sie begründet dies mit Studien (die ich nicht gelesen habe, aber im Prinzip scheint ihr Buch solide zu sein)

[tight haven]

Tetris

Mein Lieblingsspiel ist Tetris.
Ich spiele es auf meinem Handy, aber es ist besser auf dem Computer, weil der Bildschirm größer ist.
Es ist ein Spiel für eine Person, deshalb spiele ich es alleine.
Ich spiele meistens 30 Minuten pro Tag.
Es gibt bunte Blöcke, die nach unten fallen.
Das Ziel des Spiels ist es, jede Zeile mit Blöcke zu füllen, damit sie verschwindet.
Dieses Spiel ist für alle, aber Kinder spielen es meistens.
Tetris hilft mit logischem Denken.
Es ist ein Klassiker und macht immer noch Spaß.

Konnen Sie bitte dieses Text korrigieren?

[icy flax]

Danke Euch, @delicate tiger, @willow socket und @uneven leaf. Ihre Antworten waren hilfreich (:

[uneven leaf]

man liest das zwar nicht so oft, aber umgangssprachlich gibt es schon einige Leute die das so sagen

das wird ja eher beim sprechen als beim schreiben verwendet

[icy flax]

Sende es in #writing

[uneven leaf]

btw @icy flax willst du auch Korrektur zu deiner Fragen, bzw. alles was du in diesem Kanal schreibst?

[uneven leaf]

mir fallen nämlich ein paar Sachen ein diesbezüglich ^

[pulsar sand]

join voicechat? 🙂

[flint nimbus]

hehe, thanks for the offer! Not rn, but where would i go? Do people just join a random study group VC or have they set meetings?

[pulsar sand]

either or. you can join ask a native to help you pronounce the letters or words. you could also look for a study partner or post to find one here > #942470380692590632

[icy flax]

Jaaa

Ich hab 3 Male umgeschrieben, bitte

Ich musste deepl writer benutzen

[icy flax]

Besser jetzt?

[uneven leaf]

moment ich schreibe noch

[icy flax]

Nimm dir Zeit

[uneven leaf]

*Sie scheint, wirklich Ahnung davon zu haben
*...an dieser Stelle ist, dass Betreuungsplätze gefördert werden sollten, anstatt Betreuungsgeld
*Sie argumentiert, dass arme Frauen durch bezahlbare und gute Grundschulen mehr Stunden am Tag arbeiten können, und dass das Armutsrisiko dadurch reduziert wird.

du hast sonst einige Sätze entfernt die ich dann halt deswegen nicht mehr so gut korrigieren kann

nämlich hab ich noch in Erinnerung, dass "zu (verb)" da falsch verwendet wurde

[icy flax]

Kein Problem, das Wort "Ahnung" ist sehr sehr passend. Viel besser!

[icy flax]

Typisch ich. Es gibt eine gewisse Struktur, die auf Deutsch nicht funktioniert, aber häufig in Portugiesisch vorkommt. Diese muss ich lernen besser aufzupassen. 😢

Was ich gelernt habe, ist dass die auf Deutsch ein "man" braucht.

[uneven leaf]

*Diese muss ich lernen besser zu vermeiden
oder
*Ich muss lernen diesbezüglich besser aufzupassen

[woven vine]

"...an dieser Stelle ist, dass" doesnt really sound right, something like "...An dieser Stelle sollte betont werden, dass..." would be better id say

[uneven leaf]

have a read of the context xD

[uneven leaf]

^

"Ihr Punkt an dieser Stelle sollte betont werden, dass..." is definitely wrong

[woven vine]

oh you made it for a context

then nvmd

sorry

[uneven leaf]

don't worry it's fine xD

[teal cliff]

#pronunciation U can send ur tries there ;3

[plush pelican]

What is happening with this sentence? Why is the verb seemingly in position 1?

I assume the subject is "der Chef eines der wichtigsten Social-Media-Unternehmen", but then how is this word order okay?

https://www.derstandard.at/story/3000000244904/musk-soll-x-manipuliert-haben-um-fuer-trump-stimmung-zu-machen

[whole portal]

The condensed form is basically "Tat A doch B.", right?

[plush pelican]

I know there are some limited situations with so-called V1 Stellung:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V1-Stellung

[plush pelican]

Is it this?

[whole portal]

I guess so

[plush pelican]

So it's done for effect, mainly in spoken speech?

[whole portal]

If you put those in Präsens it's the same, no?

Perfekt I mean

No I didn't mean Perfekt

Präteritum

There we are

I should go to sleep

[plush pelican]

For reference: the prior paragraph in the article is talking about how social media companies were accused of suppressing right wing opinions

[whole portal]

Yes it's definitely an effect thing

[plush pelican]

But no conclusive evidence was ever demonstrated

[whole portal]

The structure doesn't carry some intricate meaning that you couldn't get with "obwohl" or something it's just for a stronger contrasting effect

[plush pelican]

1. how informal is this structure? Is it unusual to see in a newspaper article?

2. how often does it occur?

3. this is a newspaper article, right?

[whole portal]

I would say it's rather formal/would occur more in stuff like articles or speeches

2. that's hard to quantify out of the blue I would say it's on the more common side of the rarer constructions? ^^"

[plush pelican]

First, you learn the language. Then you learn the language hidden within the language

[whole portal]

3. der Standard is like the biggest Austrian newspaper yes

[plush pelican]

Is rough, because it's again like one of those hard rules you learn early on, v2 Wortstellung.

Only to later find out, "well, except for when we decide not to do that, and that's okay for some reason?"

So with this word order, das Vorgeld ist einfach nicht besetzt, und es muss da nichts geben? Der Satz fängt einfach mit der linken Satzklammer an?

[whole portal]

I think they just wanna put the verb in focus it's not that deep :p

[plush pelican]

Mit „Verb-Erst-Stellung“ ist eigentlich gemeint, dass (in den Begriffen des Feldermodells) die finite Verbform in der vorgezogenen Position der „linken Satzklammer“ steht, während zugleich das „Vorfeld“ leer bleibt.

[plush pelican]

But there is already a way to put the verb in focus:

Put it in the Vorfeld, the position 1, and put "tun" in the linke Satzklammer

Helfen tue ich nicht. Ich bin faul.

[whole portal]

That lacks the contrasting effect used in the article ;p

[plush pelican]

So the contrasting effect is contrasting with the prior paragraph, yeah?

[whole portal]

Yes

[plush pelican]

(in contrast to accusations of social Media suppressing right wing opinion) Elon Musk as head of a big social media company was openly positioning himself on the side of Trump.

What does the equivalent with "obwohl" look like?

[whole portal]

I misread the prior sentence earlier, I don't think obwohl is the best choice here but yould just change the order a little to something more normal like "Denn nun stellte sich ..." or "Anstatt dass rechte Meinungen unterdrückt wurden stellte sich nun ..."

The "Stellte sich dabei doch ..." construction expresses this feeling of irony the best tho I feel, the author used it very well

[plush pelican]

Thanks for the explanation 🙏

[plush pelican]

@signal cipher You might find this little tidbit to be interesting grammar: A time when the Vorfeld is empty, so the sentence looks like it's conjugated verb first.

[signal cipher]

Is it putting verb in the beginning or omitted er?

[plush pelican]

the conjugated verb is said to still be in the linke Satzklammer (position 2)

It's just that the Vorfeld is empty

[signal cipher]

Or maybe just because the subject is long they put that later

Can I do that with a short subject? Would it sound wrong?

[plush pelican]

I mean, normally you can't do this at all

But apparently it's allowed, mostly in formal written stuff, in order to "achieve a narrative effect". Here, Yoshi said it contrasts to the previous paragraph.

I don't fully understand how and when to use it, considering I've only just now read about it

[signal cipher]

I have heard in daily talk people often omit I and You as subject

Heard this first time

[plush pelican]

Yeah, that's something slightly different

It talks about that in the Wiki article

[signal cipher]

What achieving narrative effect means?

I couldn’t understand the contrast also

[signal cipher]

They couldn’t believe their eyes.

[plush pelican]

I...don't fully understand it myself. Ask Yoshi if they can explain it better

[plush pelican]

It says here, the sentences where "ich" or "du" or "das" are omitted, don't really count as this kind of sentence, but rather those are still v2 word order sentences, where the first word has simply been left out and it is assumed you can understand what it was supposed to be.

Whereas this is something different

the Vorfeld, position 1, is empty

not just that it was omitted, but there is a subject still in it

[signal cipher]

“Diese Art von Verb-Erst-Wortfolge kann besser als ein Verb-Zweit-Satz aufgefasst werden, bei dem ein Pronomen, das im Vorfeld steht, nicht ausgesprochen wurde.”
This seems like omitted er and n that example

[plush pelican]

that's what I just said, my dude

[signal cipher]

I was preparing what I wrote. Read your post later 😞

[plush pelican]

The first half of the picture talks about this kind of sentence (with the Vorfeld empty)

The second half of the picture talks about the sentences with "ich" or "du" or "das" omitted

and it says in the middle that the two should be distinguished from each other

[signal cipher]

I will study this. I still couldn’t understand its effect yet.

Seems like a different version of tun+infinitive

Different emphasize which I swill couldn’t understand

[plush pelican]

Read what I wrote way up above, I brought that up, Yoshi said it was different

[signal cipher]

I read

I mean a way to emphasize verb

[plush pelican]

you have read it, or you are currently reading through it?

[signal cipher]

I think this emphasizing is a bit more general

Read in past

Asking approval, theatrical effect, surprise etc.

I understand things like that from examples

[plush pelican]

searching "v1-stellung" would probably get more information on this grammar concept

the wikipedia article is short

[glass gust]

:o argus hat aufgestiegen

idk what level up is in german i googled ;-;

[signal cipher]

There were no D level. He has to be satisfied with this C level 😞

[boreal stratus]

argus *ist aufgestiegen

[radiant igloo]

This level should be his real level from long time ago. Herr Argus is the best german Teacher on Disscord🙏

[plush frigate]

is it right?----- Ich gehe nach apotheke?

I know it should be =In der-----but still

[willow socket]

it shouldn't be in der

and Ich gehe nach Apotheke is also wrong

Ich gehe in die Apotheke.

[dense obsidian]

What are you trying to say? Are you on your way to the Apotheke or are you going inside the Apotheke?

[plush frigate]

ahhh so, both of them are different meaning?

soo both of the mare right?

[robust glade]

"Ich gehe nach Apotheke" is wrong

[plush frigate]

so in movement it will be-in die aphotheke-as akusative right?

[plush frigate]

ahhhh

okay

thanks

[dense obsidian]

If you are on your way, you'd use "zu", if you go inside, you'd use "in".

[plush frigate]

ah okay, thanks.

okay also how do you memorise those articles

?

on A2 need some advice

[dense obsidian]

always memorise article and word together

dont just memorise "Apotheke", memorise "die Apotheke".

[lofty vale]

are you a slavic speaker?

[plush frigate]

just studying german, well from east europe

[lofty vale]

slavic speaker?

because that structure in german looks a bit slavic

you say ich gehe zur apotheke, or ich gehe in die apotheke

[plush frigate]

ya ya. oh, haha it sound like that. haha, ya, I should not translate dirrectly :dd

[limpid trout]

how does gehen work with other verbs in the contexts of "spazieren gehen" and "angeln gehen"?
i mean, i understand that it's essentially the same in english-- i.e. going walking, going fishing--
but is there a consistent way to tell what verbs are able to pair with gehen like this? (i can't even identify a pattern for what verbs do it with to go in english...)

[night dagger]

There are just fixed idiomatic combinations, also it’s often with verbs that don’t use an object or are activities — walking, jogging, swimming, etc

[signal cipher]

It’s infinitive without zu. Some verbs (mostly called semi-auxiliary verbs, semi-modal verbs , Modalverbähnliche Verben) can be used like that.

Think it like:
ich gehe, zu spazieren.
Instead of that you write zu spazieren without zu and in mittelfeld (a grammatical sentence position).

Some of these kind of verbs can be used with zu or without zu. Some can’t be used with zu. There are a lot of details.

Some used with zu but instead of separated zu phrase, you write zu phrase in mittelfeld.

sehen, lassen, kommen, gehen, heißen, helfen, hören, fahren, schiken, bleiben, lehren,, lernen, laufen, finden, fühlen, spüren etc.

It’s not about the verbs which are used with gehen, it’s about gehen

If you like grammar, you can also search verbgefährte. In the phrase spazieren gehen, spazieren works as verbgefährte. It modifies the main verb and creates a different meaning (slightly or completely). Adjectives, nouns etc. also can be verbgefärte. You can think it like “having breakfast”. Having has different meaning, having breakfast has different meaning. “Having breakfast” acts like another verb than having.

But these topics are not necessary for level A, I guess.

[charred harbor]

What immediately comes to mind for me personally: spazieren gehen, laufen gehen, joggen gehen, schwimmen gehen, schlafen/pennen gehen, wandern gehen, campen gehen

This is by no means an exhaustive list, not even close, these are just the first common constructions that come to mind for me

[signal cipher]

There is something similar in English. You add verbs to some verbs in to-infinitive, some verbs in gerund. Some can have both.

[slow loom]

Hi everyone. I'm new to the channel

[next jasper]

hi

[light rain]

I think the correct term is "Funktionsverbgefüge" (based on what I have noticed), but your explanation is on point.

[plush pelican]

I've seen multiple names for it, including "zusammengesetzte Verben" and "Verbgefährte"

https://mein-deutschbuch.de/trennbare-verben.html#zusammengesetze Verben

https://imgur.com/HcTr0SW

[fallen nimbus]

Hallo, ich wollte über das Passiv from von nennen fragen.

Welche ist die richige Form?
Beim von Vester "abenteuerlich unwirtschaftlich" genannte Autofahren gehen .....

oder
Beim von Vester "abenteuerlich unwirtschaftlich" genannten Autofahren gehen ........

[plush pelican]

Vester?

[plush pelican]

Das hängt nicht vom Passiv ab. "genannt" funktioniert hier als Adjektiv. Die Endung ist also die Endung für ein Adjektiv vor einem Nomen.

Man kann da auch andere Adjektive haben, und die Endung wäre dasselbe.

Beim großen Auto
Beim = bei + dem
bei dem großen Auto

beim kalten Wetter

bei der kleinen Bank

beim gebrochenen Rad

bei der frisch gewaschenen Decke

"bei" als Präposition erfordert den Dativ.

https://www.germanveryeasy.com/adjective-declension

es gibt einen bestimmten Artikel vor dem Adjektiv (beim = bei + dem), also ist es schwache Deklination, die erste Tabelle auf der Webseite.

In dieser Situation brauchst du die Endung -en, egal, ob das Nomen männlich, weiblich, neutrum, oder Plural ist.

[fallen nimbus]

Vester ist die Name von einen Mensch

[fallen nimbus]

ach so, danke dir!

[charred harbor]

der Name von einem Menschen/der Name eines Menschen*

[plush pelican]

"der Mensch" ist ein sogenanntes "schwaches Nomen", 😱

[charred harbor]

Why are you surprised? :o

[plush pelican]

not surprised, I just begrudge weak nouns their existence

They make my life unnecessarily complicated, and I don't need that kind of toxicity 😛

[charred harbor]

Latin/Proto-Germanic vibes are always cool idk wym

xDD

[plush pelican]

Es ergibt mehr Sinn, wenn man weiß, dass einst alle Nomen dekliniert wurden. Schwache Nomen sind also alte Rentner, die sich dem neuen System nicht angepasst haben 😛

[spare warren]

Bloß weil es mir beim durchlesen gerade aufgefallen ist, statt "genannt funktioniert hier als Adjektiv" würde man wahrscheinlich eher "fungieren" benutzen

[plush pelican]

Ist "funktionieren" falsch, oder weniger schön?

[spare warren]

Ob es ganz falsch ist weiß ich nicht, aber fungieren ist auf jeden Fall schöner

https://de.hinative.com/questions/2143825

[plush pelican]

Jetzt stellt sich die Frage, ob andere Deutschlerner das Wort "fungieren" verstehen werden, 😅

[spare warren]

Das stimmt natürlich hahaha

[plush pelican]

Einige Menschen stellen Fragen auf Deutsch, aber wenn man auf Deutsch antwortet, können sie die Antwort manchmal nicht oder nur teilweise verstehen

Ich glaube, das stammt aus einem Irrglauben, dass sie hier auf Deutsch reden müssen, auch in #questions / #questions-2

[flint shoal]

ANy suggestions for somewhere i could practice using cases/grammar?

ping me if you respond

[woven valve]

yo what does Laufende Produkte mean in english

[delicate tiger]

please ask only in one channel at a time

[flint shoal]

google translate

[silent ore]

katrielle layton!! :0

[spare jay]

Glad to see so many Layton fans on here :D

[charred harbor]

Luke!?!

[dire fog]

Hallo, eine Frage. Wenn ich habe ein Trennbare Verb and I have to use um + zu, liegt zu zwischen dem Präfix und dem Verb?

Like, "Ich gehe nach Haus, um Freundin anzurufen." Ist das richtig?

[rich prism]

ye

Ich gehe nach Hause, um eine/meine/deine/etc Freundin anzurufen

[charred harbor]

Wenn ich ein trennbares Verb habe*

[dire fog]

Ohhh achso danke danke

[silent ore]

but in different universe 😔

[spare jay]

I strongly advise you to try Layton in German :D Laytons voice is phenomenal

[charred harbor]

It is

[fervent kernel]

Was ist das denn?

[delicate tiger]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Layton

[charred harbor]

Outdated article

Professor Layton ist der Name einer Adventure-Spieleserie für den Nintendo DS und den Nintendo 3DS.
Should be "für den Nintendo DS, den Nintendo 3DS und die Nintendo Switch"

[next jasper]

Seit wann gibt es das für die Switch?

[wide crater]

Seit 2017, denke ich?

[charred harbor]

Die Verschwörung der Millionäre war für die Switch erhältlich und das neueste Spiel (Neue Welt des Dampfes) ist nur für die Switch also der Artikel ist jetzt veraltet

[next jasper]

Krass wusste ich nicht

[wide crater]

doch erst 2018

[next jasper]

Unmöglich solche Fake News hier zu verbreiten

[wide crater]

[next jasper]

Ich bin empört

[wide crater]

Kennt ihr Katamari Damacy?

[delicate tiger]

#german-only

[spare jay]

And for Mobile Device actually!
And movies, and animes xD

[brave flint]

Was ist der Unterschied zwischen:
a) Tim hat 4 Stunden die Wohnung aufgeräumt.
b) Tim hat für 4 Stunden die Wohnung aufgeräumt.

[next jasper]

Nichts

Sinnlich

[plush pelican]

Ich dachte, "für 4 Stunden" ist ein Anglizismus?

Aber ich bin mir nicht sicher

[icy flax]

Er hat mir die Ohren vollgeredet/-jammert/-quatscht
Wenn einer halt so sehr viel redet, dass es mir lebensmüde geht, kann ich sowas umgangsprachlich sagen. Gibt es einen förmlichen Ausdruck und auch einen alltäglichen? Generell würde man einfach sagen, dass der Typ total nervig ist, oder?

[brave flint]

Im folgenden Satz:
"Ich suche für ein Jahr einen Job."
Was dauert ein Jahr? Die Suche oder der Job?

[next jasper]

Ah wusste ich nicht

[plush pelican]

Ich kann auch falsch liegen

[icy flax]

Susana hat das hunderte Male gesagt. Es kann nur richtig sein

Sowie das "ähnlich zu etw"

[plush pelican]

😬

Diesen Fehler mache ich immer noch, glaube ich 😅

[willow socket]

Is it?

[plush pelican]

Ist es ein Fehler?

Anscheinend ja

https://www.wer-weiss-was.de/t/aehnlich-mit-oder-ohne-zu/9485478

[willow socket]

https://deutschegrammatik20.de/praepositionen/die-bedeutung-der-prapositionen-ubersicht/die-bedeutung-der-prapositionen-fur/

[plush pelican]

Ich dachte, du sprichst von "ähnlich zu", 😅

[willow socket]

Hier sind die temporalen Bedeutungen aufgelistet ohne Anmerkung

[plush pelican]

In der temporalen Bedeutung beschreibt für eine Zeitdauer (=wie lange?). Sie entspricht der Postposition lang oder dem temporalen Akkusativ.

Beispiel 1: für (temporal)
Er arbeitete für einige Jahre im Ausland.
=Er arbeitet einige Jahre lang im Ausland.
=Er arbeitete einige Jahre im Ausland.

Beispiel 2: für (temporal)
Wie lange bleibt ihr in Berlin? – Nur für zwei Tage.
=Nur zwei Tage lang.
=Nur zwei Tage.

[willow socket]

Ja genau

[plush pelican]

Dann ist es wohl kein Anglizismus. Ich habe mich geirrt @next jasper

[brave flint]

für 4 Stunden ist also nicht falsch?

[brave flint]

Ist dieser Satz richtig?

[plush pelican]

I guess so 🤷‍♂️

[plush pelican]

Da dachte ich, es sollte eher wie "Ich suche seit einem Jahr einen Job" aussehen

Aber vielleicht irre ich mich auch hier.

[brave flint]

Eigentlich habe ich im Kurs gelernt, dass der hier gesuchte Job nur ein Jahr dauert. Aber irgendwie finde ich das komisch.

Würde gern mal wissen, ob das wirklich natürlich klingt.

[plush pelican]

Ach so. Das ist aber eine andere Bedeutung. Da hätte ich vermutet

"Ich suche einen ein Jahr dauernden Job." oder so

Etwas mit einem Partizipsatz als Adjektiv

Ich suche einen (ein Jahr dauernden) Job.

Aber vielleicht überlassen wir es den Muttersprachlern, 😅

[brave flint]

Genau 😂

[brave flint]

So würde ich das eigentlich auch sagen, oder vielleicht würde ich einen Relativsatz verwenden

[timber yacht]

"Ich suche einen Job (nur) für ein Jahr."
Ich suche gerade einen Job, in dem ich ein Jahr lang arbeiten möchte.

"Ich suche für ein Jahr einen Job."
Was genau gemeint ist, bleibt hier fraglich. Man würde schauen, was sich dazu aus dem Zusammenhang ergibt, in dem der Satz auftaucht.

"Ich werde ein Jahr lang nach einem Job suchen (- und wenn ich bis dahin keinen gefunden habe, werde ich wegziehen)."
"Ich werde ein Jahr lang versuchen, einen Job zu finden."
Hier ist eindeutig, was gemeint ist.

"Ich suche einen ein Jahr dauernden Job." ist natürlich nicht falsch, man würde ihn so formuliert aber wohl nicht hören.

[timber yacht]

Diese Varianten hätte ich auch zusammengetragen. 👍

[violet field]

Du wirst als erstes erschossen.
Does this sentence make sence?
How can it be translated into English?

[willow socket]

Did you try a translator?

Where do you have the sentence from?

[violet field]

Somebody posted it on my discord server as a joke but I'm wondering if it is correct or not

[icy flax]

Vielleicht ist ein Buch namens "Grammatik 2.0" keine geeignete Quelle um dafür zu belegen, ob "für" wirklich kein Anglizismus sei. Auf DWDS gibt es auch Beispiele von dem temporalen "für" für Zeitdauer. Es ist wohl nur Gesmacksache, aber ein überflüssiges "für" einzuschieben, ist komisch

[icy flax]

Die Suche dauert ein Jahr. Wenn man die Zeitdauer an Job verankert wollte, dann "einen Job für ein Jahr". Wenn dieses "für ein Jahr" gleich nach dem Verb sagt, dann wirkt es sehr als ein temporales Adverb für das Verb "suchen"

[icy flax]

Yeah, it does. You would write "als Erstes".
https://www.deepl.com/de/translator#de/en-us/Du wirst als Erstes erschossen.

[willow socket]

Warum wäre dies keine geeignete Quelle? Ich verwende die Webseite ziemlich oft und sehe keinen Grund anzunehmen, dass die Infos fehlerhaft sind, die da geteilt werden. Natürlich kann man anhand der Quelle nicht ausschließen dass es sich um einen Anglizismus handelt, aber es spricht dafür dass es mindestens so häufig ist, dass es zur normalen Grammatik gehört. Ich finde “für” in diesem Fall auch nicht besonders komisch.

Während ich hier bin: ich glaube das ist falsch. Seit einem Jahr würde sich auf das Suchen beziehen. Hier ist es zwar nicht ganz eindeutig, aber ich würde den Satz so verstehen, dass der Job 1 Jahr dauert (teilweise vom Kontext abhängig).

[timber yacht]

Etwas für eine bestimmte Dauer zu tun, ist kein Anglizismus, diese Formulierung gibt es schon sehr lange.

#questions-2 message
#questions-2 message

[signal cipher]

Which one would be better:
…, und, John, ich möchte Schokolade.
…, John, und ich möchte Schokolade.

I wonder whether position null is before or after left außerfeld

[wispy yarrow]

Kontext?

[signal cipher]

There is no. I made up the example.

[plush pelican]

Which one is "better" depends on the context

[signal cipher]

So both are possible? Position null can be before and after linkes aßenfeld

[plush pelican]

Both are possible, but I don't know that it proves anything about "position null", because you can always insert stuff at various points in a sentence.

especially small little asides

[signal cipher]

Don’t we write coordinating conjunctions in position null?

Und, Oder, aber

[plush pelican]

one sec

Hammer's German Grammar 19.2.1(c)

You can have the name of the person addressed as a little aside, which can be inserted before the entire clause

[signal cipher]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/progr@mm/4553

[plush pelican]

I see

so Hammer's just doesn't label this as the "linkes Außenfeld"

I still believe you can have the name after "und", in which case "Peter" is an insertion, separate from the main clause

like when you have something in parentheses in English

[signal cipher]

Danke schön

[plush pelican]

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/rechtschreibung/6202

[signal cipher]

I try to understand difference and relation between position null and left aussrmfeld, Nachfeld and right aussenfeld

I think I understood. If a thing is mentioned in main clause, extra phrase which describes it more is in right aussenfeld. If it’s mentioned firstly, it’s in Nachfeld. I am not sure

[brave flint]

Danke schön! 😊👍

[signal cipher]

What does it mean here?
Sir @plush pelican

[plush pelican]

My dude you didn't even include the full sentence

[plush pelican]

I believe that that's talking about times when multiple things all fit into position 1, which can happen for a limited set of adverbs

[signal cipher]

I couldn’t understand the difference between this two options

[plush pelican]

They are joined with the other thing in position 1 such that both only count as "1 thing" for the purposes of counting positions

[signal cipher]

Aaaa is it nacherstfeld?

[fervent kernel]

Freilich ist agreeing, allerdings you can say before adding something

[signal cipher]

I mean these two

[plush pelican]

He's talking about the positioning, having "zugleich" and "freilich" both before the conjugated verb, even though as we all know the conjugated verb is in position 2.

Meaning "zugleich" and "freilich" are both in position 1.

[fervent kernel]

Ah ok

[signal cipher]

I think I understood. We can write before vorfeld or in nacherstposition of vorfeld

[plush pelican]

Sounds right

[signal cipher]

And there is no position null 😞

[plush pelican]

Position null = linkes Außenfeld?

[signal cipher]

It seems like it’s left aussenfeld

I am not sure

[plush pelican]

I mean, position 1 = Vorfeld

[signal cipher]

Und ich möchte Schokolade.
I mean the position of und here

[severe flame]

what is the difference between Muffensausen and Angst ? 😦

[fervent kernel]

Basicly means the same

[severe flame]

oh thank you

[fervent kernel]

No Problem

[fervent kernel]

Es gibt im Darm einen Muskel, die Muffe. Wenn man Angst kriegt kann er erschlaffen und man muss pupsen. Davon kommt Muffensausen.

[severe flame]

ohh okay 🥺 thank you.. diese Erklärung gefällt mir

[fervent kernel]

Kein Problem gerne Ja die Erklärung ist ganz cool.

[icy flax]

Hey, @willow socket! Hab nicht geschafft, dir früher zu antworten.
In der Linguistik gibt es zwei Ansätze: deskriptiv und präskriptiv. Grammatik 2.0 ist eine Quelle für die neue Grammatik und daher wahrscheinlich ein deskriptives Werk. Unabhängig davon, ob das "Dauer-für" zwar ein Anglizismus ist oder nicht, wird es natürlich als Teil einer "Grammatik 2.0" angesehen, wenn es schon von vielen häufig verwendet wird -- so häufig sogar, dass es beispielsweise laut @timber yacht eine alte Formulierung ist.
Erinnere ich mich nun falsch daran, dass ein Mitglied uns mehrfach empfohlen hat, dieses "für" wegzulassen, weil es ein Anglizismus und auch überflüssig sei? Ja, das kann sehr gut sein. Ich habe nie gesagt, dass die Infos von Grammatik 2.0 fehlerhaft seien.

Geschmacksache: ||Ich persönlich verzichte lieber auf dieses "für". Die Jahren sind noch vor mir, aber ich will wegen einigen Geschichten von Ausländern in Deutschland das sauberste und korrekteste Deutsch sprechen, das ich kann, sodass die Sprache selbst nie einen gültiger Grund für Vorurteil einmal kommt||

[plush pelican]

"die neue Grammatik"?

Was ist das?

[icy flax]

eine berühmte Webseite: https://deutschegrammatik20.de
nicht selten findet man es in der beliebten Suchmaschine

[plush pelican]

Die Webseite ist mir schon bekannt, aber du hast gesagt, dass die Webseite "eine Quelle für die neue Grammatik" ist.

What is "die neue Grammatik"?

Nimmst du einfach an, dass es eine neue Grammatik gibt, weil die Webseite "Grammatik 2.0" heißt?

[icy flax]

No, I was trying to explain that the website is called what it is called probably because it aims to bring a new modern look to what german is nowadays

I was trying to tell Lolo what I meant

[plush pelican]

But you think that this usage of "für" is not really grammatical, just an Anglicism that is weit verbreitet?

[icy flax]

not sure about it, but it might be, not that I really care much. I recall someone telling me this, but I could not find when it happened, it was either a teacher or someone that knows german at a pretty higher level

what we were discussing was a specific case of using "für" where u dont really need the "für"

I decided just to "verzichten" (not use ?) on using that "für"

Lolo asked why did I not find that site good to proof whether it was a anglicism or not

and that's what I wrote earlier on

[plush pelican]

go without using that "für"

stop using that "für"

[icy flax]

yeah! that!

Es gibt also keine Frage mehr zum Thema hehe

[fervent kernel]

Könntest du mich näher an ihn heranbringen? Ist das her nötig?

Auch von Angesicht zu Angesicht? Könnte ich von Gesicht zu Gesicht sagen?

Please ping when answering

[whole portal]

Was möchtest du stattdessen sagen?

Anbringen?

Das würde nicht funktionieren, du könntest es höchstens zu ranbringen abkürzen

[whole portal]

He's taping him to the other person if that wasn't clear

[fervent kernel]

Anbringen ohne das her

[fervent kernel]

Ah ok danke

[fervent kernel]

@whole portal wie wärs mit dieser frage?

[whole portal]

Na ja sagen kannst du es aber es klingt halt komisch

Funktioniert mMn. nicht wirklich als Alternative

[fervent kernel]

Was ist mMn.?

[plush pelican]

meiner Meinung nach

= imo

[fervent kernel]

👍

[timber yacht]

Ich weiß, das Thema ist durch 🙂 Allerdings habe ich eben beim Frühstücken noch ein bisschen recherchiert und im Goethe-Wörterbuch etwas gefunden. Dieses Wörterbuch stammt nicht etwa von Goethe selbst, sondern wurde in mehreren Stufen über lange Zeit ab der Mitte des 20. Jhd. zusammengetragen und aufgebaut. Die untersuchten und angegebenen Quellen sind allerdings meistens deutlich älter.

[plush pelican]

Das kann ich überhaupt nicht entschlüsseln

Was ist "uö"?

Was ist "b"?

Ich nehme an, "f." = für?

"So war für einige Geschlechter der Geist nicht ewig"? Was? Was hat das mit "für x Stunden" oder solchen Formulierungen zu tun?

[timber yacht]

"f." = für
Schaue zum Beispiel auf den zweiten rot gefärbten Textteil:
f. lange’, ‘f. lange, kurze Zeit’ ua; ‘f. immer, ewig’

[ihn] auch nur f. einige Zeit zu beherbergen,

Das sind in meinen Augen gute Beispiele für genau die temporale Nutzung, die wir besprochen haben.

[plush pelican]

Da gibt's aber keine Zahlen an sich 🤔

[timber yacht]

Is doch Wurst. Wenn ich sagen kann "für den Nachmittag" oder "für kurze/lange Zeit", dann kann ich selbstverständlich auch sagen "für wenige Tage" oder "für 3 Wochen".

[willow socket]

Ah die gute alte Grammatik 😌

[plush pelican]

Guck mal, deren taucht auf!

Der Groll zwischen Exodanern und Solanern war zwar (größtenteils) längst begraben, doch Rosemarys privilegierte Abstammung war eine Sache, deren sie sich mittlerweile schämte. Das erinnerte sie allzu sehr daran, weshalb sie von zu Hause weggegangen war.

"for which" passt da ziemlich gut, oder?

Nur wusste ich nicht, dass "sich schämen" auch ein Genitivobjekt akzeptieren konnte.

[signal cipher]

What is that allein? Adjective, adverb?

Der Täter allein ist dafür verantwortlich.

[plush pelican]

Adverb, it must be

An adjective can only be either in front of a noun, or after "sein"

It can't be in the Vorfeld at the same time with something else

It's adverbs that do that, I linked the Hammer's page the other day

Hmm, maybe I didn't

Hammer's German Grammar 19.2.1(c)(iii)

[signal cipher]

If allein is counted in that phrase, both can be there I think. I don’t know.

Der täter allein is one phrase or not I don’t know.

[plush pelican]

It's the situation with 2 things in the Vorfeld

Which is only allowed for very specific words

It's viewed as "one thing" because the "allein" is like more information about "der Täter"

You talked about it the other day, what was the name?

Nacherstposition?

[signal cipher]

Yes

But what it is exactly I don’t know that

There is same thing in English. Maybe I can find something from there.

Maybe it’s predicative adjective

[plush pelican]

It can't be

If it were, it would have to be by itself in the Vorfeld

Müde bin ich.

As far as I know, only adverbs and particles can share the Vorfeld with something else

So here it must be an adverb

Hmm, but that sounds like they're connectors, like conjunctions almost

🤔

Doch!

https://grammis.ids-mannheim.de/konnektoren/407077

"allein" counts as an "Adverbkonnektor" and can be in the Nacherstposition

In a list of possible positions for it:

[signal cipher]

What you mean by particle

[signal cipher]

Connect nothing?

It just says “only täter”

[icy flax]

"ihn auch nur für einige Zeit zu berherbergen" ist das einzige Beispiel mit dem überflüssigen "für". Nah... Vielen Dank für die Recherche, Halbhorst. Du darfst nun wieder Pizza backen und Teig hin un her in der Küche werfen.

[icy flax]

uö - und öfter
b = zweiter Eintrag zu "für"
Ja, meines Erachtens hat es auch nichts damit zu tun

[icy flax]

Es hat etwas von "Der Herr der Ringe" in sich, oder?

Ich hole dich ab, dann äsen wir zusammen, schieden für den Nachmittag, um Abends wieder da zu seyn.
Ist dieses schieden etwa im Präteritum?
Sagt man das noch? "Wir scheiden uns jetzt, ich muss nach Hause"?

[timber yacht]

Die ganze Unterhaltung hatte mehrere Stufen. Eine davon war die Frage, ob es sich bei der temporalen Verwendung von "für" wie in #questions-2 message um einen Anglizismus handelt. Dass es diesen von mir geposteten Eintrag in einem Jahrzehnte alten Nachschlagewerk gibt, spricht dagegen. Das war alles, was ich damit verdeutlichen wollte. 🙂

[timber yacht]

So spricht, glaube ich, niemand mehr.

[signal cipher]

John lächelnd hat den Champagner gegessen

Can I write lächelnd in this position?

Or

Lächelnd John hat den Champagner gegessen.

[willow socket]

no

also, note that one doesn't eat champagne but drink it 😄

[signal cipher]

No I meant eating.

That’s why he is smiling.

[willow socket]

okay whatever you prefer.

John hat den Champagner lächelnd getrunken.
Lächelnd hat John den Champagner getrunken.

^valid positions for 'lächelnd'

[signal cipher]

Which position do you think natural for lähelnd?

John hat lähelnd den Champagner gegessen

Lächelnd hat John den Champagner gegessen

John hat den Champagner lächend gegessen

[robust glade]

The 2 one, but you don't eat the Champagner, you drink it, so you should write "getrunken"

[signal cipher]

Danke schön

[willow socket]

das hatte ich dir schon gesagt, aber nochmal zur Wiederholung: 2 und 3 (lächelnd), gegessen getrunken

[signal cipher]

There were examples like 1 in a video.

Because of that I couldn’t be sure which version is most natural

[willow socket]

1 is still possible, just slightly less natural 🙂

word order is very flexible in the end

[signal cipher]

Yes. But I wanted to learn which order is natural and in which it’s emphasized.

[icy flax]

ich war kurz davor alles über Bohr zu schmeißen
Ist das eine Redensart, die die Frau in Rosa um 10:10 sagt?
https://www.ardmediathek.de/video/panorama-die-reporter/die-abnehmspritze-so-gefaehrlich-ist-der-hype-um-ozempic/ndr/Y3JpZDovL25kci5kZS8zNDkzNDUwZS01MTdkLTRkYjMtYTRjOC1mOGJlNWFmNWRlMmY

[plush pelican]

über Bord

to throw something overboard = to throw something away

[icy flax]

wie auf einem Schiff

[plush pelican]

genau

[icy flax]

es wäre so gut, wenn sie Untertitel hätten. Mein Gehirn ist so schlecht mit dem Parsen von neuen Wörtern

[plush pelican]

Das ist aber gute Übung

[fervent kernel]

@icy flax come here man

Please man, stop this, I just wanted to learn German

[icy flax]

Was ist deien Frage?

[fervent kernel]

You 3 are nice people so no need for this please

[fervent kernel]

i dont speak german, speak english please

[icy flax]

What is your question? (sorry)

[fervent kernel]

nothing forget

[fervent kernel]

in fact, when are you forced to use capital letters in German?

[plush pelican]

all full nouns must use capital letters

pronouns don't need to

...unless you're talking about the formal you, "Sie"

German also capitalizes the first word of every sentence, like English.

[plush pelican]

https://youtu.be/0AW7dkKCYT4?si=Ex0AcOzEWJylnRd8

Video on dessen, deren, and derer

Question: How do you translate these sentences from the video into English? DeepL seems to somewhat ignore the genitive pronouns

Meine Entscheidung wird Folgen haben, derer ich mir sehr bewusst bin.

Das sind Beispieltsätze, angesichts derer ich zu dem Schluss komme, dass die deutsche Sprache merkwürdig ist.

Es gab technische Störungen, infolge derer die Website für mehrere Stunden nicht erreichbar war.

Die Frauen, derer wir heute gedenken, waren wichtige Politikerinnen.

[gritty niche]

Here's what I got

1. My decision will have consequences, of which I am very aware.
2. These are example sentences, because of which I have come to the conclusion, that the German language is strange.
3. There were technical problems, because of which the website was unavailable for several hours.
4. The women, whom we remember today, were important politicians.

[plush pelican]

I appreciate the effort, but for example, "These are example sentences which make me conclude..."

That's not really translating the genitive pronoun, right? nor the "angesichts" preposition

Because you could translate your sentence back into German as simply, "Das sind Beispielsätze, die mich zum Schluss bringen, dass die deutsche Sprache merkwürdig ist."

right?

[gritty niche]

Not everything really translates between languages

[plush pelican]

Some stuff does, though

[gritty niche]

I guess you could do, "because of which I have come to the conclusion that..."

[plush pelican]

Are you a German speaker? Why are you marked as A1/A2?

[gritty niche]

My German skills are weirdly mixed

But no I would not say I'm a German speaker

[plush pelican]

Heritage speaker?

There's a role for that, you know

[gritty niche]

Nah, I'm Puerto Rican, I just have a German speaking fiancée

[plush pelican]

interesting

[plush pelican]

What about, "Those are example sentences, in light of which I come to the conclusion that the German language is strange." ?

[gritty niche]

That would work

[plush pelican]

I find that having a slightly too-literal-translation helps a lot when first learning a new grammar concept

[gritty niche]

Yeah I getcha

[plush pelican]

so I guess that's what I'm looking for here

[gritty niche]

I do that with Chinese and Latin sometimes

[plush pelican]

With #4, does "whom" in English often translate to genitive in German?

I thought it was usually accusative/dative?

[gritty niche]

Gedenken just comes with the genitive, and I can't think of a way to translate the genitive into English

[plush pelican]

well, you see my problem, 😅

I know that it can sometime be like "whose", sometimes be like "of which", sometimes be like "those"

no idea how you (perhaps overly literally) translate it there, though

Der Frauen, deren Hund ich liebe, ist sehr nett.
The women whose dog I love is very nice.

[gritty niche]

whose or of whom would be the most literal

[plush pelican]

Die Erinnerungen derer, die wir verloren haben, werden nicht vergessern werden.
The memories of those, whom we have lost, will not be forgotten.

Is this right?

[gritty niche]

yeah

[willow socket]

Die Frau, deren Hund ich liebe, ist sehr nett.

(hopefully didn't miss any context)

[gritty niche]

Looks right

[left salmon]

Lol hello
Didn’t expect to see you here

[gritty niche]

lol

[gritty niche]

I have an ok understanding of grammar, even if I can't always apply it at full speed

My vocab is just garbo

[left salmon]

Oh no I meant I didn’t even know you had any connection to german haha

[gritty niche]

Ah yeah, I mostly speak broken German with my fiancée

Well, broken Denglish

[left salmon]

Maybe I missed something yeah
Im not in ordo 24/7😂

[left salmon]

Based haha

[gritty niche]

lol

no one should be in ordo 24/7

[left salmon]

True
It gets to you real fast

[left salmon]

So you want like angesichts dessen as “in view of which”? Or something like that?
I mean the “genitive” stays the same
In English obviously

[true condor]

What is the difference between genitive case and a possesive pronoun?

[charred harbor]

Not quite because you made a spelling mistake
vergessern -> vergessen*

[fallow ledge]

Hmmm not sure how to best distinguish it

In terms of translating its often translated to „of the“

And thinking of examples, i think you have to use genetive when saying one noun possesses another thing
The the city‘s orchids - die Orchideen der Stadt

An exception i can think of is like mum and dad though, where it sounds fine with the s
my mums orchid
You can say die Orchidee meiner Mamma oder meine Mammas Orchidee

A possessive pronoun is something like mein, sein, dein, ihr

[charred harbor]

The usual spelling is Mama not Mamma

Also Orchidee is the singular so “the city’s orchids” wouldn’t be Orchidee

[fallow ledge]

Opps i absolutely meant to put an n there

The other one was absolutely an error tho

[plush pelican]

The easiest way to explain it, is to not explain it at all and simply say the English equivalents, 😅

posessive articles like "mein/dein/sein/ihr" are equal to the English "my/your/his/her" etc

genitive case is often equivalent to the apostrophe s in English (plus an article):

der Hund des Mannes =
The man's dog.

Another way of thinking of it is, "the dog of the man"

[charred harbor]

I don’t think “meine Mamas Orchidee” would work at all tbh.

[plush pelican]

Depends on where you're from. I've seen "Mamma" before

[plush pelican]

Yeah, in order to do that version of Genitive with the posessor at the front and a simple "S" after it, it has to be a proper name

[dawn oxide]

Never seen Mamma before

[plush pelican]

Nicos Weg talks about it

[fallow ledge]

Yeah, im familiar with that, those examples sounded alright to my ear tho
Happy to take critique

[charred harbor]

To me it looks like an Anglicism

[plush pelican]

oh, are y'all talking about German? 😅 my bad

I thought you meant "Mamma" in English

Should've read more carefully

[willow socket]

Mamas Orchidee(n) geht

[charred harbor]

I did capitalise it for a reason… 😅

[plush pelican]

TIL it can also include names for parents

I thought it had to be an actual name name

[charred harbor]

I just see it as “works for vocative”

Learning Latin was good for something

[plush pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/i-know-some-of-these-words-mhmm-clueless-words-i-know-gif-5609882

[charred harbor]

I can explain if you like

[plush pelican]

sure

[charred harbor]

Some languages including Latin have a separate vocative case that’s used when directly addressing a person or thing, like when calling someone’s name

That’s the difference between “Vaters Auto” and “mein Vaters Auto”
The former is using Vater vocatively whereas the latter is treating it like a typical noun

[plush pelican]

Can you explain that a bit more?

[charred harbor]

“Vater! Vater!”
Same thing. For all intents and purposes Vater is a name there, or a nickname

So in effect it’s no different to “Peters Auto”

[plush pelican]

But how do I recognize that the Vater in "Vaters Auto" is "directly addressing" it versus "mein Vaters Auto" isn't?

What makes it direct?

Also: Does German use any other case to cover the Vocative, or is it just a part of Genitiv case?

[fallow ledge]

German doesnt mark this case, probably doesnt have it

Its an idea to explain why these specific nouns can function with the grammar only used with names

I guess mama and papa, oma, opa etc count as names as well

[charred harbor]

We have a distinction in English as well through capitalisation. You’d say “my father’s car” (where “father” is like a normal noun) but “Father’s car” with a capital F if there wasn’t a “my”.

[plush pelican]

Father with a capital F?

[charred harbor]

Yeah.

[plush pelican]

Das kommt mir nicht bekannt vor.

[fallow ledge]

Im thinking of Malfoy in this example, its fun

[plush pelican]

I assume you're not just capitalizing the F because it's the beginning of a sentence, but rather it's something about "Father" being a name/direct address?

[charred harbor]

See for yourself

[plush pelican]

I've literally never done this

[charred harbor]

Then I’m sorry to tell you you’ve never done it correctly :p

[plush pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-gif-21922016

[plush pelican]

how about the earlier question? How do you (overly literally) translate stuff with like derer/deren/dessen?

[plush pelican]

.

yuhu also had another example earlier that I think he made:

Das Geld von dem Arbeitgeber ist nicht wert, die Arbeit zu machen.
Das Geld dessen ist nicht wert, die Arbeit zu machen.

[fallow ledge]

did my message come through?

damn, it didnt, ill type it again

[plush pelican]

What I have so far:

• With dessen/deren as Relativpronomen inside the Relativsatz, with a noun directly after it, it translates to "whose"

Die Frau, deren Hund ich mag, ist hilfsbereit.
The woman whose dog I like is helpful.

• With the same situation, but a preposition before the genitive Relativpronomen, in (modern) English you usually put the preposition at the end of the relative clause:

Die Frau, mit deren Hund ich immer spiele, ist hilfsbereit.
The woman, whose dog I always play with, is helpful.

• With derer immediately before a Relativsatz, it translates to "of those"

Die Erfahrungen derer, die im Ausland studiert haben
The experiences of those who have studied abroad.

• With dessen/deren unconnected to a Relativsatz, it's equivalent to a possessive article that exclusively refers to a non-subject noun, so like "sein/ihr/etc" so "his/her/their/its/etc"
  Peter traf seine Schwester und deren Freunde.
  Peter traf seine Schwester und ihre Freunde.
  Peter met his sister and her friends.

• And then in the prior sentences, it seems like it can also sometimes translate to "of which", but I'm not entirely clear on when that happens.

Maybe it's when it's the object of a genitive preposition in a Relativsatz, und zwar a Demonstrativpronomen, so it's standing by itself (no other noun with it)?

[fallow ledge]

Ooooh this is a really fun question

most of these i would think of as feste Redewendungen rather than translating,

like with the two with the prepositions, angesichts and infolge those have genetive that follow them, when i translate them i think of them using of
for infolge dessen, i usually think of as a result of which
There were technical difficulties, as a result of which the website was not reachable for several hours

angesichts dessen i usually equate to in light of which, in the face of which key word of, makes me instantly think of genetive
those are example sentences, in light of which i have come to the conclusion that the German languge is strange.

that first one i would translate with of which, or just which
my decions have consqunces, of which i am very aware

and that last one hmmm tricky. When i learnt gedenken, i memorised that it pairs with dessen and didnt think much of it. It sounds particularly strange to translate with of in English. Maybe this one just doesnt translate so literally
The women, who we commemorate today were significant politicians

(i had to write this so many times, sorry youre getting the thrice written version)

[plush pelican]

Meine Entscheidung wird Folgen haben, derer ich mir sehr bewusst bin.

With this one, what does "derer" count as? Demonstrativpronomen im Genitiv? It's not a Relativpronomen im Genitiv, right?

Die Frauen, derer wir heute gedenken, waren wichtige Politikerinnen.

Yeah, with this one I wonder if there might be an older English formulation that we simply don't use today, something like all that "henceforth" and "whereupon" or something

[plush pelican]

Anything to add to this?

[willow socket]

why is it not a relativpronomen (it is, imo)?

[fallow ledge]

ummmmm hmmmmmmm sorry im rusty on the difference

its comming across as like a more written, highbrow version of a relativpronoumen

like language youd use formally

[plush pelican]

🤔 Maybe it is and I didn't realize that was a Relativsatz. The verb is at the end, that certainly hints at a Relativsatz.

[willow socket]

derer relates to 'die Folgen'
same as in the second sentence: derer relates to die Frauen

[fallow ledge]

oh maybe its bewusst thats triggering the case, that would make sense

[plush pelican]

yeah, it's one of them fancy "adjectives that govern a noun in genitive case" situations

which, like, no one fucking explains that to you

[willow socket]

oh just occurred to me: why have you written 'derer' instead of 'deren'? Did you think these up yourself or get them from somewhere? Deren sounds 'better' to me

[plush pelican]

The YouTuber herself wrote "derer"

I just copied her sentence

[fallow ledge]

maybe its a typo, i know im prone to making that error

r and n

[willow socket]

Maybe both are exchangeable, idk. I would have used deren.

[plush pelican]

So she mentions earlier in the video another spot where she said "technically, you can use derer or deren here, but to me, deren here sounds wrong. But there might be regional differences with this."

[willow socket]

derer is useable as a demonstrative pronoun

afaik not really as a Relativpronomen