I don't think there is a real dedicated way to do it sadly. Only minimize it perhaps
#server-feedback
rich sky
sonic hazel
By the amount of repitive questions, I would assume the DM feature is more used than the search feature 😬
deft raft
Depending on how often that happens, I'm also not too sure about punishing everyone who asks a question in DM.
I would rather advise to redirect them to the server or ignore them.
stoic goblet
you have an observation bias there
chilly ivy
The best we can do is discourage it.
stoic goblet
you never see someone who searches for an issue before asking
because, well
they searched for it
and then didn't ask it
vocal blade
in my experience, people who DM for help are usually those with not enough confidence to word the problem right, so they do it not to appear silly in the public channel
a minor annoyance at worst
deft raft
I get DMd for Multiplayer questions cause too many people think I'm some sort of god.
I doubt they can't ask the same question here, they choose to just ask me directly cause they think that gets them the right answer the quickest.
And you can probably apply that to everyone else here: If you often help others and you seem like you know your shit, someone will DM you.
stoic goblet
you'd be surprised how many pings I get weeks after I discussed something asking followup questions by people who weren't part of the original conversation, but had searched and found that I was talking about it
honestly
I fucking love it when people do that
sonic hazel
So what about then a channel that promotes question that is more prominently visible? I know we got #ue4-general but the naming suggests a topic, where some people have no idea to what topic their question belongs to, so something like a channel with a name that invites to ask questions
stoic goblet
means they searched 🙂
deft raft
@stoic goblet Follow up questions on discussions are good though, right?
chilly ivy
Yeah I'm pretty stoked when I see/hear people using search here.
deft raft
It's more about "Hey you helped a person with steam 6 weeks ago, solve my problem please" which is shit
gritty lotus
it's the rando questions out of the blue, that can be answered with a 5 minute google that annoy me, generally
stoic goblet
oh, most recently for me it was a really weird edge case discussion regarding UObjects and replication
rich sky
FollowUP DMs are completely different though
gritty lotus
usually asked by people who have joined, but never posted in the actual server
chilly ivy
Right, like "Hey can you help me make a battle royale?"
stoic goblet
the #1 question I hate is "can you help me?" or "can I ask you a question?"
rich sky
If you were actively discussing something with people and then you get DMed... well, that makes complete sense imho
deft raft
When I use google or use the search function, I find my own answers 
rich sky
And I wouldn't turn anyone away from that
stoic goblet
i did that too once exi 😛
mental vessel
Okay dudz, everybody seems to got a book with stories.
rich sky
I get plenty of those myself and don't mind
stoic goblet
yeah
deft raft
@stoic goblet Too many AnswerHUB posts I answered and completely forgot about. Too many.
@rich sky Yeah it's more about the ones that come out of the blue.
stoic goblet
unsolicited DMs are annoying
gritty lotus
especially when they turn up at like, 4am
stoic goblet
and highly discouraged and to the point of moderator action if they are spammed to multiple users
sonic hazel
Or what if yoy could send your question to @open radish , he sends the question to a channel we all can see but only the bot can post there, so the awnser would be send to the bot as well, the bot adds the awnser to the question. When someone asks a question, the bot searches if something alike was asked before and link it back to the questioner
stoic goblet
like what victor reported and started this convo
rich sky
No one uses the bot
sonic hazel
Then they would maybe?
stoic goblet
eh
rich sky
Hm
deft raft
I wouldn't want a bot that does the work for the lazy ones.
stoic goblet
and people wouldn't use it
rich sky
I mean, if we had a dedicated bot question channel and others saw it....and it was highly visible, like high up in the channel list... I could see it being useful honestly
sonic hazel
We thank the computer tech to the lazy, laziness is the motivation to invent automation :d
stoic goblet
or, more likely and not something on the onus of the user
rich sky
But, that means someone needs to operate the bot 😉
stoic goblet
they don't know how to frame their question
stoic goblet
100 people will ask a question about the same concept 100 different ways
well, sometimes changes don't happen because we decide not to do them
it's not like they are being suggested into the void
sonic hazel
Yes but with guideness question can be formatted
stoic goblet
we talk about a lot of the suggestions made here
and the consensus is often that we don't want to go that direction
sonic hazel
Like #looking-for-talent
stoic goblet
or that the problem isn't that big of a problem
or, in the case of unsolicited DMs... there is a fuck-all we can do about it because discord has no tools to manage it
we can bold the rule that tells people not to do it... but that won't do much
sonic hazel
It would add drama though
chilly ivy
What would be the point of sending questions to a bot that posts those questions to a public channel, instead of just asking the question in a public channel in the first place?
rich sky
Well, my bot idea is something like this:
!help (list all help categories)
!help graphics
(list graphical channel and descriptions)
open radish
@rich sky, Unable to identify command. Use !help or @Unrealbot#7510 help to view the list of all commands.
open radish
@rich sky, Sent you a DM with information.
azure valve
People never read faq regardless
rich sky
Right
BUT
If there was a dedicated channel spammign the bot commands
Other people would see others using it
Which helps motivate people and educate them that using the bot in that channel is good
Especially for first timers
deft raft
Why would you need that? The bot can DM new users with the commands.
azure valve
That’s no different from any other channel. Just with more steps
rich sky
But you know how many of those New User Bot DMs I ignore?
since dyno is OP in every server
But, give them an avenue to exploit the bot
deft raft
Well then you are basically a good example of a user who ignores the information of a bot.
Also if you want something like this, come up with something that doesn't need additional channels.
rich sky
But the additional channel is key
Plenty of other servers have a dedicated "bot channel" for this specific reason
So others can see what the bot can do
And use it themselves
Encourage them
deft raft
Well, our bot can do what #more-resources says.
deft raft
People generally don't read these channels, even if you make a dedicated bot channel for the 2-3 commands our bot can do.
rich sky
Maybe with new improvements and mandatory "have to read, sign agreement to see other channels" thing, it might work
it wouldn't be 2-3 commands though
It would have to be a decent amount... 50-100 commands
deft raft
have to read, sign agreement to see other channels
Can this be accomplished with what Discord provides?
deft raft
How would you check that the user didn't just say "I Accept" without reading stuff?
rich sky
Plenty of other servers do this
Oh, you can't if you don't do it right
Which is why I suggested making it a mini game
Since you have 5 minutes of doing nothing
Ask them questions, give them some points.
Multiple-choice answers or something. Make them read the damn rules for them.
That is probably the only way to make sure they read them 🙂
It's a little bit of a hassle, but the end result will be magnificent
IMHO 😉
deft raft
What if someones English isn't well enough to understand the questions or the answers?
Do you want to exclude them from all channels?
rich sky
Do we allow other languages?
gritty lotus
then they're probably going to have trouble with the rest of the server?
rich sky
That's also very true
I've never seen anyone try to speak another language (although I can do simple Google Translates every once in awhile to help people)
deft raft
Which I don't see an issue with. We have plenty of users who use google translate etc. to get help.
Not really wanting to cut them out.
rich sky
But this server is primarily an English-server
And there are no dedicated channels for non-English speakers
And ALL RULES are in English
So obviously, you've also found one issue
You can definitely make the server mandatory English, as plenty of other servers do
stoic goblet
uh
rich sky
I wouldn't, but that's not the issue at hand
stoic goblet
so we don't have a hard rule against other langauges
rich sky
Nope, and honestly, I don't see a problem with not having one
stoic goblet
there is a point where we as moderators cannot moderate other langauges we don't know
rich sky
But, everyone speaks English here anyway
rich sky
If you are not going to do dedicated support channels for other languages...(and also localizing rules/faqs in other languages)...then you are basically saying this is an English-only server
Let's be real here
stoic goblet
you aren't wrong, but we have no way to moderate channels in languages we don't know
which is why we don't do it
or, at least, one of the reasons I'm personally against it
rich sky
Aye I know, but that's why you get moderators for those languages
deft raft
I never said "Other languages".
rich sky
Then have them do it 🙂
deft raft
I only said that peeps that aren't good with English might have trouble with such a quiz.
rich sky
In any case, my little mini-game idea is still valid
deft raft
While they might be okayish enough with UE4/Gamedev terms
rich sky
Dunno, I think if you can ask a question in English
Then you can probably understand it as well decent enough
Especially if you expect to get help from anyone here
But also, that's why there's Russian UE4 server/facebook page
And probably one in every major language
gritty lotus
search functionality hasn't worked for me in this server for three days now
fast skiff
discord had serious outages yesterday
vast tusk
Discord is still trying to recover, it's not specific to our server
stoic goblet
discord search is down
rich sky
<@&213101288538374145> I wonder. Discord links are 100% prohibited right? No matter what?
Or are there special rules for when they can be linked?
stoic goblet
I am not speaking for the moderators, but my understanding is that it's to stop drive-by discord links
that seem to be really common
but that is an edge case we'll probably need to discuss
cause imo, that doesn't violate the spirit of the rule in my understanding
chilly ivy
Indeed, this is a case we've never discussed. I think this is the first time I've seen an invite inside a job post.
stoic goblet
No Discord Server or other community group invites or links, unless determined by @Moderators to be relevant and useful to developers. Contact a @Moderators via DM for approval. is the text of the rule
like, yeah, that's a first
didn't even think of that
rich sky
So, I suppose, if they didn't request it...then it's not legal 😉
Well Contact a @Moderators via DM for approval. covers all instances anyway
And... I don't see why you would use a discord link for "DM purposes" anyway.
For looking for talent/work
stoic goblet
you can make invite links to private messages
chilly ivy
Hm, that's true.
stoic goblet
i do it for destiny raids that i need to go to public lfgs for
super useful feature
i dunno, like i said, we'll have to discuss
rich sky
Heh. But yeah, so it should only be to people though right?
chilly ivy
The one in said post is a link their public server.
rich sky
Why would anyone want to go to a server to find a person to talk to, to find a job or work?
stoic goblet
it's not violating the spirit of the rule (in my opinion) as it's 1) a bot post, 2) not an embed, and 3) not intended as spam
rich sky
It just doesn't make any sort of sense imho
chilly ivy
And we can't possibly police DM invites vs. server invites because they're indistinguishable.
stoic goblet
yeah
rich sky
So, it should just be to Discord Usernames then?
Just to make it clear and easier to understand
stoic goblet
cant be usernames
rich sky
Again, seems like a way to circumvent
chilly ivy
Well I already added a user ping for that, so people can DM the OP.
rich sky
Ah yeah, that's right
stoic goblet
embeds are a little fucky when it comes to user pings
chilly ivy
Yeah. I tried that and caching made it break too often.
stoic goblet
yeah
i dunno, on a scale of 1 to 10, this is like a 2
it's not like someone is spamming an invite link in every channel
chilly ivy
True, but I think we should discuss it. I'm leaning towards discouraging this because it can be used to circumvent the rule.
azure valve
Pretty scummy though 😜
stoic goblet
sure
chilly ivy
Even if it's not in this case, it can be very easily.
rich sky
modchat transparency isn't a bad thing ¯_(ツ)_/¯
fleet surge
I don't understand the purpose of banning discord links
there are plenty of cases where it makes complete sense to use them
rich sky
it's just a thing every server does ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, but then you get people just putting their links everywhere they can
fleet surge
the rule should be about spamming them just like how you'd have a rule against spamming anything else
rich sky
I mean...I would post my Discord Link in every Dev Blog post in #work-in-progress
So people could follow along progress that way if they chose
stoic goblet
discord links are 99% of the time spam
azure valve
It’s even better when you get cold dm with server invites
fleet surge
so.. the rule should exclude that 1% where it's not
vast tusk
They aren't banned. They are on a per request basis
They are allowed if approved by a mod
rich sky
So you would allow every dev with a Discord Server the ability to post their discord link with each update in #work-in-progress ?
That's what I'm hearing...
fleet surge
there are more exceptions - i.e. someone asks you for a link in chat, obviously you send it then as it's not spam
rich sky
yeah but no one ever goes to that channel
Or pinged mods
(or maybe they got permission, who knows)
mint halo
yea they are allowed sometimes
chilly ivy
The "with mod approval" clause is meant to allow for invites that are useful resources, like linking to the Blender or Quixel servers for example.
mint halo
was what i was told i mean
chilly ivy
The new rules will make this clearer.
azure valve
Being able to get a public mod seal of approval would help if you want to go that route
stoic goblet
I am pretty sure that one got approved
there was a game jam discord that came to us
might have been that one
azure valve
Or mods can only post server invite upon request and approval
stoic goblet
but i dont really remember
chilly ivy
Really, the philosophy is similar to someone linking to their own products: it's OK if it's relevant, i.e. someone asks for other ways to get help with Blender, you link to the Blender Discord server.
stoic goblet
basically, the rule is to stop people from doing drive-by discord link dropping
and other spam like that
there are users who seem to think linking a discord for their server in every channel is a good way to get traction for the game they are making
in reality, it's just annoying
azure valve
That isn’t outlined in the rules. Not going to use interpretation of my own morals and mood to claim something is in violation.
mint halo
an approved by moderators reaction would help yea
vast tusk
That's a good idea @mint halo
fleet surge
spamming your discord invite with no context is no different than doing that with any other link
why would it have a special rule
stoic goblet
because it embeds
stoic goblet
sure
mint halo
invites for some reason can't be < >'d
stoic goblet
but, like
fleet surge
images embed
mint halo
yea good point lol
stoic goblet
the rule that no discord links exists in also covers spammy links
so
like i said, the spirit of the rule is to cut down on advertising
fundamental concept, this is a server of peers, not customers
fleet surge
that makes sense but it'd be more sensible for the rule to be "no advertising" then without explicitly mentioning one type of ad for no real reason
stoic goblet
so, extending that concept into a rule, there is a fairly wide "no advertising" rule, but it has exceptions because as peers there is some level of advertising we are interested in
job boards, marketplace, wip... stuff like that
mint halo
gg links are pretty easy to parse
stoic goblet
i think there is a philosophical argument to be made here regarding having an explicit list or a soft guidelines
mint halo
if unrealbot wants to take up another task. could just black list certain invites
stoic goblet
personally, I lean toward soft guidelines and giving examples of how we interpret those, but some like explicit lists
rich sky
(or no lists at all)
stoic goblet
and I get it personally
well, no list at all is soft guidelines
you say "We are a server of peers so advertising is generally not allowed"
and that's it
how moderators act is on a per-case basis taking that guideline into account
personally, it's how I prefer things
but, like I said, others may not because it's very subjective for whichever moderator is active and responding to an issue
azure valve
Again, not everyone has the same interpretation nor should you expect proper behavior from members without setting guidelines. We can’t read your mind
azure valve
Not to mention that it creates frustration for the reporter. It makes you lot appear inactive or lazy.
stoic goblet
as I said, some people prefer lists, some prefer soft guidelines
chilly ivy
I'm of the mind that behavior we encourage can be soft guidelines, but behavior we don't allow should be explicit and clear.
chilly ivy
So a hybrid approach for me, really.
azure valve
Just want to see consistency from the mod team
mint halo
Do you have a like internal incident report type channel or something? beyond logging? It might help to keep everyone on the same page with rules
chilly ivy
Sort of. We have a dashboard that lets us browse previous infractions.
azure valve
Only infractions?
Yeah that’s a problem. There wouldn’t be transparency between a mod and the team if they decide to dismiss it. As you know by now pfist.
chilly ivy
Message edits and deletions too. It's basic at the moment. We don't have a great system in place for managing incident reports in one central location.
mint halo
Haven't tried reporting something to multiple mods individually but it does seem like there can be variance in interpretation
chilly ivy
We've discussed options for improving that.
rich sky
!report "Message" (Send report to mod channel)
mint halo
yea or even a dm to unreal bot
mint halo
for things that don't need the moderator tag level of response
rich sky
¯_(ツ)_/¯
rich sky
!report "message" (bot does its thing to mod channel, then deletes report itself)
(also PM option yeah)
mint halo
Yea, i'm more thinking that might be a better way for the moderators to review incidents together i mean
azure valve
An incident report is simple. It’s just a form. If a mod has to deal with it, either by action or inaction, that form is filled.
stoic goblet
we have talked about a modmail bot
PM the bot, it opens a channel with us and the modmail-er
and then we can log that channel
azure valve
I’m under the impression that you don’t report resolutions however
stoic goblet
btw, i hate paperwork
azure valve
Too bad
stoic goblet
filling out forms is probably a good way to get people to not react
you have to understand that we are volunteers and we all have full time jobs
chilly ivy
@azure valve What do you mean by reporting resolutions? Like if a mod resolves an incident, telling the other mods?
azure valve
If you can’t be bothered, why be a moderator? Unfortunately you need to oblige by Discord’s rules of conduct as a partner
Yes pfist
stoic goblet
unless it's like... super trivial
chilly ivy
Yeah we generally inform each other of incidents, and there's also audit logs and infraction logs as I mentioned.
stoic goblet
(i know what in incident report is... I used to work a job where I had to fill them out)
azure valve
Regardless if it results in an infraction or warning
vast tusk
I think Roy thought you meant a form the user would fill out to report another user
azure valve
Heavens no
chilly ivy
That's what I thought you meant, too. Like a Google form outside the server or something.
azure valve
Though an bot would be great. I doubt the average person would know it exist
vast tusk
Agreed
mint halo
Yea i was just referring to some internal means of moderators just noting a report, even if it wasn't acted on. Like when your told its a grey area or something, an internal chat of those kinds of things might help lessen confusion
bot would work good yea i'd imagine
stoic goblet
oh
yeah, so
we already basically do that
often times when y'all ping moderators when only one person is on, mutliple moderators log in
so we communicate that we are doing stuff about it
vernal leaf
hi, a small question regarding #looking-for-talent: I'm looking to barter programming skills for artist; is it ok to post it as a job request in there (with all the details of course)?
chilly ivy
@vernal leaf Yes. You will have an option to select "unpaid" for the compensation, then you can clarify it's for barter in the job description.
vernal leaf
cool, thanks!
hallow heart
Hey guys how can I post of looking for talent, when it's says I don't have permission to post? Thank you
drowsy oxide
Read the #more-resources channel. It has instructions on how to interact with @open radish to be able to make Job listings.
hallow heart
Ok found it thank you.
oak flicker
This server is great
mint halo
if one has been to gdc, do they get the role?
rich sky
Also, can we get one for PAX?
stable crystal
Pax South 2018 and GDC 2017...
mint halo
GDC 2007...
open radish
Hi! Hope this message finds you well.
I dont know how the looking for work... works. Where do I submit if i want to see if i can find some freelance work? Thanks!
vast tusk
@open radish Please read the pinned message in the #looking-for-work channel
open radish
Thanks. Didn't see there was a pin.
vast tusk
np 👍
deep steppe
id volunteer and conveniently im technically unemployeed! 😄
azure valve
I’m a bit confused with the no invite rule even though you can send invite if relevant to the topic. Would be nice to set up a read only Partners channel (or whatever you like to call it) that list useful servers. I.e Think Procedurally, Zbrush, Blender, Substance, Voxel Plugin, etc. We can link the channel instead of posting an invite to avoid this grey area of the rule.
mint halo
Discord servers are frequently annoying to google too. And people could just point to the partner channel instead of sticking invites in
gritty lotus
the 'no invite' rule is mostly to prevent spammers
mint halo
It should read this way then, do think a partners channel for software related things would solve allowing any though.
chilly ivy
@azure valve What exactly is confusing about the rule? I'm drafting new rules so I'd love to hear more feedback on this.
wraith glade
I could interpret that as "moderators will delete them if they are not determined to be relevant to the conversation"
mint halo
rules should be left to interpretation?
wraith glade
At the end of the day, all the rules are "don't do dumb things"
(Though yes, the rule description is vague and should be improved)
azure valve
Not wise to encourage an "post first, ask later" policy
wraith glade
I think the rule is basically meant to be "don't post YOUR Discord link"
Not sure how to phrase that properly in a new rule description, though
mint halo
yea i mean, its too wordy. something like:
No unapproved discord invites allowed. Check with moderator before posting.
wraith glade
But now that's still needlessly strict
mint halo
I know plenty that have gotten infractions for posting any invite though, it seems its up to the moderator
azure valve
Considering that is more of an international community, pure interpretation on the user's part isn't a good route either
wraith glade
But what would a good, clear description of the rule be?
mint halo
we have to know the rule to word it better lol
azure valve
exactly
wraith glade
What I understand is "Don't post spammy links to your tiny Discord - but links to other, large, relevant communities are okay if they are in relation to answering a question"
wraith glade
That's why someone needs to come up with a proper, clear text for the rule
mint halo
like it easily is interpreted as don't post without approval, approval is by contact (as well)
azure valve
also why I suggested a resource channel instead
wraith glade
If there is some small list of approved other communities, they could just go into the #more-resources
mint halo
Yea i don't think its a good idea to leave it up to the individual. would rather the rule just be "No unapproved discord invites allowed. Check with moderator before posting."
checking with mods on things isn't a huge hassle (for the person at least lol)
wraith glade
Okay, but that could also be combined with a list somewhere of pre-approved invites
wraith glade
Such as the #more-resources, which already exists and is already only full of read-only pins
mint halo
i don't think guide needs to grow in size at this point 😂, but yea something like that (like what was suggested)
wraith glade
I also don't think the number of channels in here needs to grow in size at this point, there are way too many to keep track of already
azure valve
Yeah, server links take up a bit of screen space too
wraith glade
This server is already into scrollbar territory, which isn't ideal
azure valve
I'm banking that no one is a jack of all trade though
mint halo
idk, always kind of thought graphics is too general. there are some channels that could go probably, but i really don't care about scrolling so much lol
just don't take my #niagara away lol
wraith glade
That's not a fault of this server, anyway. The problem is that Discord won't let you pin your favourite channels to the top of the list
azure valve
you can hide muted channels but that's about it as far as I'm aware
wraith glade
Yes
mint halo
do think what was suggested would be worthy of the 48 pixels or whatever though
chilly ivy
Thanks for all the suggestions folks. Definitely helpful feedback for the new #old-rules and #more-resources. 🙂
azure valve
delete introduction
chilly ivy
I'm definitely well aware of how long and, frankly, unruly the channel list has become. I'm addressing other things first, but next year I'd like to address that.
We don't currently have any analytics about which channels are popular or not, so I'm thinking we'll send out a survey to gauge the awareness and usefulness of all our current channels. That will help better inform us which can be removed, which can be consolidated, etc.
mint halo
I'd hesitate to remove based on popularity really. Searching channels has helped me in the past
drowsy oxide
I dont understand how that rule is unclear. It quite obviously says DM a Moderator for approval....
mint halo
this was my interpretation too devilsd. but people act like it says the mod can approve of it after its posted.
azure valve
then it isn't being enforced
mint halo
I do think clearing the rules up to read so they can only be enforced one way would go far yea
gritty lotus
you can see how popular a channel is by just scrolling up a bit
some channels you'll go back a few hours, some a few weeks...
chilly ivy
@gritty lotus That's not very useful data.
gritty lotus
it's useful enough
chilly ivy
Not for me it isn't.
I can't make any decisions based on scrolling back for several minutes.
Real analytics would be far more useful. Messages per day/week/month, user retention, being able to spot spikes related to external events, etc.
gritty lotus
if the last X posts in a channel span a time period of months, it's safe to assume the channel isn't being used ¯_(ツ)_/¯
chilly ivy
Maybe for a small community, but to me that's not enough data to make decisions that affect up to 30K people.
mint halo
don't see an issue with combining macos, linux and mobile into -other-platforms or something. but i really don't share the feeling of less channels means better server.
gritty lotus
it's even more indicative, given the size of the community
chilly ivy
Fret not, though. Server analytics are likely coming (they're in a limited experiment at the moment, and we don't have access). 🙂
fast skiff
there are good discord analytics bots
gritty lotus
^
chilly ivy
I haven't seen any that I feel comfortable adding to this server, and now that a first-party solution is coming that offers much better data, I'm just going to wait.
mint halo
good call on being reserved on that though, bots are spooky
gritty lotus
on the other hand, it might be worth considering removing channels for features that have been abandoned
mint halo
but yea would say, most looking forward to rules being fixed
chilly ivy
Yeah that's top priority right now.
fast skiff
while I agree that adding every single bot on a whim is a bad idea, there is a limit to skepticism's usefulness
anyway, I've setup one such analytics bot and the owner (content creator) is happy. If you want, I will gladly share experience and/or screenshots
chilly ivy
Sure, and I am well aware of that. This isn't just skepticism, though. It's a combination of long-term support, control, security and reliability.
And regardless, I think an imminent first-party solution justifies my continued reservation.
mint halo
I bet @open radish would be up for it.
(hasn't accepted my friends request still though)
but yea, that is probably what i'd do too.
chilly ivy
Unrealbot is old and grouchy. 😄
mint halo
Does get a lot done though 👍 the work channels are pretty cool
chilly ivy
I'm genuinely amazed at how much the job board has been used. I've met people at my local Unreal meetup who said they get work there all the time.
I'm going to upgrade it based on the feedback we got from the job board survey earlier this year, but that's next on my list after I take of the onboarding stuff.
shadow pawn
That's great to hear, didn't know people got so much out of it 😁
chilly ivy
Me neither! It made me happy and was part of my motivation to do the survey.
The other motivating factor was an ongoing discussion about whether or not the job board should move to a website like other job boards out there. Interestingly enough, the survey tells us the vast majority of people here want to keep it in the server.
wraith glade
I notice that #gameplay-ability-system doesn't have a description
(It does have one in #more-resources, though)
vast tusk
Good catch, I'll fix that
mint halo
ever thought about allowing for thumbnail/image with the rich text thing in work channels?
strong tide
In regards to channels; I'm very strongly opinionated on not removing things just because there is low usage.
Don't use half of them? Mute and hide them!
It's better to have and not need, than to need and not have.
Almost think some people on here forget how big ue4 and game dev in general is.
gritty lotus
it's better to have fewer channels and redirect those from emptier channels into busier ones, as so conversation can happen and questions can actually be answered in a timely fashion. Having an extra 20 channels is useless if practically everyone has them muted and hidden, and days pass at a time without activity in them
strong tide
Right, because flooding a more generalised channel is better than asking a proper question and waiting for a proper reply.
I have several channels muted I couldn't give a rats arse about: does not mean they do not have their uses.
gritty lotus
it's hardly 'flooding' when we're talking about channels that nobody uses. There are a couple of channels here that go weeks without a message, and a lot of the time it's a question that just plain goes unanswered.
Those channels do not 'have their uses', they are actively detrimental
strong tide
Heaven forbid you ask a proper question on stack overflow, then!
gritty lotus
stack overflow isn't a real-time chat application, but it's the same problem ultimately
a question going unanswered in a forum for weeks is also a problem
strong tide
Yes, a very annoying problem for the person who asked it
deft raft
I would also rather group topics into one channel than having 5 channels with barely traffic.
fleet surge
is it normal to read that as "niagra"
mint halo
I tend to agree that activity isn't a good marker of channel
necessarily
yeah nyiahgarhya
though i do think #platforms really could be a thing. like if #mobile is a thing for android and ios 🤷
strong tide
Personally prefer clarity over clutter for the mere sake of 'less channels' and false activity. Though i think my opinion on that is pretty clear already :p
drifting crescent
Someone might understand that as platforming
deft raft
None of the two extremes is good, it depends on the channels and their usage. We don't want to clutter topics either.
unkempt tinsel
Please don't touch #gameplay-ability-system . It's a great little subcommunity. Although a discussion about adding the new Network Prediction plugin to it could be had.
azure valve
Organize the channels in General category at least. The number of channels seem to be a silly thing to stress over otherwise. You can mute and hide channels if it’s such an eyesore. The majority are being utilized by the community, so they’re clearly not eating server space.
mint halo
Yeah, General is a weird category
I don’t think the focus on initial slide through with the channel list is a biggie. Would rather have separate channels over needing to have multiple servers
mint halo
Are the voice channels set to 384kbps?
gritty lotus
this server doesn't have 384kbps audio
but even then, it's pretty redundant for voice channels anyway
128kbps is usually more than sufficient
mint halo
Believe its available to discord partners.
deft raft
They are not set to 384.
chilly ivy
Just to be clear: We do have access to 384kbps audio; we're just not using it.
fleet surge
why not?
chilly ivy
Because we have little incentive to do so. A bitrate that high is generally more trouble than it's worth for large global communities.
drowsy oxide
Also no one uses the voice channels??
mint halo
theres usually one person in there lol
drowsy oxide
No i wouldnt agree that its even that frequent.
Its extremely rare that anyone is in there.
Considering the size of the community.
mint halo
its kinda intimidating with the thousands of people and exactly two voice channels tbh
lol it is funny how the voice text channels appear
drowsy oxide
How do you mean intimidating?
As in you dont want to join in fear of others joining because of the size of the community?
mint halo
Its not like a text channel where people can talk over eachother i mean.
I'm not really suggesting there be more voice channels or anything though. Just was curious if it was actually 384 or not
Wouldn't say its a vital thing for the server
drowsy oxide
Voice is by far the least of our concerns. If it was to become popular (regular usage) we would pay more attention to it and its needs
azure valve
Who has even expressed concern?
mint halo
Yeah was just curious what perks are in use
fiery mantle
I'm hoping for a way to remove my listing in the looking for talent channel. We found someone to fill the role and i hate wasting everyone else's time that sees it.
Or at least update it to reflect this.
mental vessel
Have seen in some servers generally accepted emoticon subbed, for example ✅
... for request jobs.
slender blade
Yeah, reactions were disabled in #looking-for-talent when people started using them to... "Grade" posts
fiery mantle
ah, yeah even a quick edit to take my name off of it would work
vast tusk
@fiery mantle I've removed it for you
fiery mantle
Tysm 😄
vast tusk
np 🙂
mint halo
i think the color grading of pay is interesting lol
deft raft
We will look into a way to let you remove your own posts. You won't be able to edit them as they are posted by the bot.
rich sky
<@&213101288538374145> I think I asked of this before. But any chance you can institute at least a two-week "bump" rule (if not a month) for #looking-for-talent #looking-for-work
Sometimes I'm trying to search for something, and I see the same few names every other time
Or if I wanted to post in any, I would be just be spammed out in no time
(which is happening to some people on there, whether they realize it or not)
Should be easy to do via the bot actually
Some sort of timer
stoic goblet
we are actively discussing this!
rich sky
I would say do slowmode...but the bot is the one posting
rich sky
Well, that's good at least.
stoic goblet
i know pfist has a plan that he's been working on
we were discussing things like potentially timing out posts
or having some kind of way to keep postings rotating
chilly ivy
Yeah, we got a lot of great feedback in the survey last year. Those features were both among the suggestions, so we're definitely exploring those.
rich sky
Another idea also
Separate it out a little by discipline
Programming , Art, Audio, Design ( I think might be able to help )
rich sky
Cool, can't wait to see the results
stoic goblet
not trying to shut you down, just letting you know that we are working on it
rich sky
Back to Job Posts.... I still don't see the need for non-UE4 posts on this server
chilly ivy
Perhaps.
rich sky
@chilly ivy Oh no. Hate that Discord doesn't auto-scroll to the bottom if there's no new messages
It's the Adobe one
chilly ivy
Oh, weird. It's posted in the wrong channel.
And while it's not specifically for UE4, the skills are certainly relevant to the audience here.
gritty lotus
so are Unity postings, but we wouldn't accept them here
rich sky
^ @chilly ivy Yup, very true.
No reason to have and clutter up the postings anymore with non-relevant stuff.
chilly ivy
I see where you guys are coming from, but I also don't want to shut out every job that isn't working directly with the engine.
gritty lotus
you can't make one rule for one (arguably more relevant) set of people and another for someone else
either everyone can make non-Unreal postings, or nobody can
chilly ivy
Sorry, what?
chilly ivy
I'm simply discussing my desire to find a healthy balance for the job board. I don't see how that changes the fact that our rules apply to everyone.
silver heath
I'd favor job board not being restricted to specific tool tbh.
rich sky
dunno, either this is an Unreal Engine focused server or it's not ¯_(ツ)_/¯
If it is. Then it makes no sense
It you want Unreal Slackers to be more "liberal/general" game dev... then consider changing the name
and "mission statement"
Which btw, you all don't have
But it assumed it's 100% focused on everything and anything Unreal
chilly ivy
It's a weird position to be in. It's obvious why people here would expect the job board to only contain Unreal-related opportunities, and yes, allowing Unity-related opportunities would certainly open a weird can of worms. On the other hand, there's a lot of gray area that's worth addressing.
rich sky
If we want to see other random crap
We can go to other discord channels
But (and again, this is probably the majority of people on here), the assumption is this is all going to be Unreal Engine related stuff
chilly ivy
#looking-for-work in particular falls into a gray area there. Plenty of studios using Unreal need to hire for things like branding, marketing, etc. So if we restrict the job board, do we tell people who offer those services not to post?
rich sky
If you allow random non-UE4-related posts in job channels... it may become way too much crap to sort through
(it's already terrible to sort)
But why would anyone in Marketing be on this server?
It doesn't even make sense
Remember, you don't allow a marketing channel
If you are going to allow one, then sure, let the flood gates open
But yeah, you can't be all wishy washy on rules when it may suit you
(or others)
As for where they can post
anywhere else but here
Think about it this way actually
Who posts in Unreal Forums?
Under jobs
Unreal Developers
I mean, there might be some random wierdo posting to marketing there, but I've never seen one
rich sky
Right... but who is their target?
Unreal Developers
And that's how this should be emulated as well
chilly ivy
OK, what about composers? Audio engineers?
rich sky
You talk about "no marketing channel because of gamedevs not being your customers (a terrible and false assumption btw)"
But then you're going to allow non-UE4 posts in a UE4 server
The audience here is Unreal
And yes, it's basically the same thing
Audio Engineers typically have/need experience with the engine
fleet surge
seems straight forward to me. composing or audio engineering for unreal projects = yes, otherwise, no.
chilly ivy
Composing is an engine-agnostic discipline.
rich sky
Yes, I agree.
Composing is sadly probably a terrible one
Another one would be concept art
No need for engine experience
HOWEVER
WTF does working at Adobe do for a UE4 project?
That's the bottom line
chilly ivy
Fair point about the Adobe job. That's perhaps worth discussing because then you get into "If not Unity, why Adobe?" arguments.
My broader point is: Lots of jobs fall into a gray area, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable shutting them out from our job board because they don't require Unreal experience.
chilly ivy
Really sorry to jet so quickly, but I have an appointment to get to. I'll be back later to discuss this more.
rich sky
👍
gritty lotus
FYI composition isn't engine-agnostic unless you're doing it poorly. Music might be music, but you're still playing it back through your game engine and a lot of games mix their music on the fly to suit gameplay
deft raft
I wonder, would I be allowed to search a concept artist for a UE4 project in these channels?
My understanding was: Yes. Even though they would probably never touch the Engine.
rich sky
@deft raft Yeah, but would you be looking for an Adobe job in #looking-for-talent ?
That's the million dollar question
deft raft
Tricky
rich sky
Guess since it's not decided yet...might as well spam it
deft raft
I wouldn't, but if a person with that skill range sits here, they would probably be happy to apply.
rich sky
Not really tricky.
Non-UE4 job have no place here.
We are not the target audience
And you guys are all about "target audience"
No one joins Unreal Slackers to find an Adobe job
Let's be real here
deft raft
I fully understand your point. Don't worry. I'm just not sure what the correct answer is.
The Adobe post is odd, for sure. I also don't think we had a lot of posts (lately?) that were not for UE4.
Is this actually a problem? The Adobe post probably slipped through.
(I also really hope no one only sits on Unreal Slackers for their GameDev career :D)
rich sky
If gamedevs that are gamers AND buy just as many games as "regular gamers/consumers" can't be marketed to (since supposedly gamedevs are not target audience), then it should apply for this as well.
I think it's just a matter of principle
deft raft
The Marketing stuff is more about this Discord not being for marketing to consumers.
Of course a shit load of us are gamers.
Can you market your games on, e.g., the Blender discord?
silver heath
Why the topic would bother so much though? There are like three and half viable posts up in work channels anyway.
deft raft
But that's also not the topic right now. I wouldn't allow the Adobe post I guess.
Posts should have at least some connection to UE4, even if they don't touch UE4, such as a Concept Artist.
@silver heath Yeah, that's what I asked too. It doesn't happen often, so removing the Adobe post should settle this already.
We are not gonna change the marketing stuff anyway, in case that's the goal here.
slow belfry
I dont think the icon for this server represents unreal accurately. The U even looks the same as Unitys official discord server icon...
The orange color in the icon, the purple background, and the font of the u have nothing to do with development in Unreal. With all the artists in here, couldnt someone host an icon contest, and take advantage of industry level icon creation, or at least color theory lol?
When I initially saw the icon, I thought I was being linked to a spam unreal discord server made by a troll.
I imagine quite a few have turned away because of that.. and it still doesnt even have anything to do with Unreal.. but the icon does have something in common with Unity.
silver heath
What you linked is not Unity's official discord. And neither is this community an official Unreal one. If you'd expected Unreal logo, limitations do apply. But it is pretty good that not everyone judges community by icon of its server.
fast skiff
considering that there are epic community team members here, maybe ask them for the permission to use the "unreal u"? 
drowsy oxide
Its not up to them.
fast skiff
yes, but they can pass to it proper people
deft raft
I imagine quite a few have turned away because of that..
And over 30k have not, sooooo.
fast skiff
that's how community teams always work - they communicate
drowsy oxide
We do not need to talk with the Community Team about branding, there are official channels for that
fast skiff
i mean, if you have a "direct line" for that, probably even better
drowsy oxide
They are public communication channels specifically for that need.
deft raft
Yop, the Icon of our Server is in discussion anyway. Probably not gonna make it the UE4 logo in any way though.
We are not UE4 or Epic Games after all.
but the icon does have something in common with Unity.
Unitys official icon is most likely the cube they have for ages. The unofficial discord you linked is not their logo.
silver heath
Returning a bit to a topic of Adobe post in looking for talent, I've just read it. And it is exactly kind of job I would be interested in potentially. Just not pulling up to senior level there and not currently in search. Given how rare specialists in that field are, I do have firm belief, that such posts are of value, whether related to Unreal or not.
gritty lotus
The existing logo has been used for longer than Discord itself has existed and is unique to this community. There's are also groups that do use the official logo, would prefer to actually be able to tell which one is which
cos, you know...
fast skiff
what's the other unreal discord 🤔
deft raft
Internal stuff
fleet surge
but it's not allowed to use that logo
mint halo
I found out you can dismiss that Ctrl+K thing too
azure valve
Why is there a adobe job listing in #looking-for-talent ? It’s a posting for first party product support, not even ue4 related in its end-usage.
Kinda like posting a factory job to produce Monster energy drink and claiming it’s related because those ue4 devs need to stay energized.
mint halo
May it be fear of some further subscription scorn laid upon developers should it be removed?
azure valve
Gotta catch em all
mint halo
Do kind of think that the job inquiries that don't imply actual work inside the engine is kind of off topic. If they can't say they are looking specifically for unreal engine talent, wouldn't think it should be allowed.
azure valve
By all means, expand the job posting to game development instead of engine relate. But this isn’t a grey area
mint halo
Yeah I mean, if its that they are looking for people familiar with the engine to use on their own cloud rendering thing.. at least say that right?
would just assume its recruiter spam otherwise
chilly ivy
@mint halo I understand that perspective. My concern is leaving out jobs that are Unreal adjacent, like concept artists, composers, modelers, etc. Skills that many people here have that don’t necessarily involve touching Unreal directly.
mint halo
Well specific to the one post, its for making a renderer on some cloud format or something and it also seems like a likely recruiter (Didn't click on the url but it is not to adobe.com or anything) .
Understand the unreal adjacent thing, but it does not appear to be that really?
chilly ivy
Yeah the Adobe one is different I agree. One could read that as building an Unreal competitor.
mint halo
Well, what i meant by stating that "looking for people familiar with the engine" would at least make it more relevant. Wouldn't say it would be bad to compete there really, but just seems off topic otherwise.
rich sky
Well at least the new one on there has something about unreal
mint halo
may have issues licensing unreal engine 5 tradmark reminds me of this https://ogn.theonion.com/in-major-blow-to-sony-s-upcoming-playstation-5-microso-1834895267
rich sky
Anyway. What's up with not doing monthly or so community gamejams?
or doing just about anything community related?
Still no server banner
Or animated logo
new emojis
etc
Rewriting rules is cool and everything. But it shouldn't take so long to finalize.
Here's hoping to seeing great new things in the community (other than just a rules rewrite) in 2020
azure valve
Doesn’t mean the freelancer needs doing anything directly involved in the engine. I.e concept artist. Just needs to be on the client’s end
mint halo
@drowsy oxide i clicked on the url and don't recommend others do.
it only goes to a site that looks like adobe
drowsy oxide
Pretty sure its the adobe corp login redirect.
mint halo
drowsy oxide
okta is security company.
mint halo
hm okay
mint halo
i kinda figured it was some recruiting company
azure valve
From their website
https://adobe.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/external_experienced/2/refreshFacet/318c8bb6f553100021d223d9780d30be
What I assume was the page they were trying to link
https://adobe.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/external_experienced/job/San-Francisco/Senior-Graphics-Engineer_82307
mint halo
so its just a question of if that is ue4 related i guess
mint halo
true
azure valve
Yeah this looks like a spoofed link
mint halo
its hard to tell because its myworkday.com and not myworkdayjobs.com but trying to visit either site brings you to nothing without the url prefix. Its really messed up either way how not straight forward it is
mint halo
well, note that difference too then. myworkday vs myworkdayjobs
azure valve
could you remove the current post and ask the op to repost with a proper link at least?
chilly ivy
I've contacted the poster, so we'll have it sorted out soon hopefully.
gritty lotus
I care little for job postings that have nothing to do with UE4 or games, posted by some rando recruiter that otherwise has never set foot in the server ¯_(ツ)_/¯
teal viper
Unreal Slackers merch, when? (:
rare hamlet
Is there a chance to have a "tutorial" dump channel like GDN ?
Seems to work very well over there.
On topic of channel. There seems to be a lot of spam/off-topic conversations in various channels. Maybe merge channels, or get rid of them?
mint halo
They're kind of like tiny little ecosystems
mental vessel
I specially know about one which is like half the time off topic, lol.
drowsy oxide
If people are being offtopic. Mention a Moderator.
We cant watch channels 24/7 and do rely somewhat on the community to help us.
teal viper
Yeah, I'd be curious which one you would merge/remove @rare hamlet
It's on the people to stay on-topic (un)fortunately, no total control there
I usually just tell them the proper channel
@mental vessel Which one? 👀
mental vessel
#design-chat lol, tho it was renamed recently. It was game-design before.
Let see how this new name handles.
gritty lotus
it's been design chat for quite some time, neither channel name has worked because it appears 95% of the people who post in there have no idea what game design is.
mental vessel
design-chat still is that generic thing which is so context dependant. Chat? Almost everything here is chat. Design? 3d design, level design, graphic design, story design, character design, ... Pick yours.
Too abstract.
azure valve
There’s still the issue of many that post in there have no idea what any of those disciples are 😜
main fossil
is there any desire to add a #python channel to programming? I think it could be useful (i use python for editor automation pretty extensively nowadays) as there really isn't a good place for python specific discussion
i guess #editor-scripting is close enough?
drowsy oxide
#editor-scripting Is where you should discuss those things.
fallen moon
Could we maybe get a procedural generation channel? Or a channel for specifically random generation/procedural generation/randomly generated content?
gritty lotus
any particular reason you can't discuss that in blueprint or cpp?
fallen moon
We could, but in the same vein so could multiplayer, physics, AI, etc
Half the existing categories can fit into blueprint/cpp
gritty lotus
Multiplayer, physics and AI all have dedicated Unreal specific toolsets
fallen moon
Seems like something important to game development that doesn't have a specific unreal toolset needs more help than one that does, no?
slender blade
It's a significantly less prominent topic
In most projects (at least on the UE4 side) I've seen there's barely any proc-gen stuff
fallen moon
I mean, I consider that a negative needing correction. What better way to encourage more use of procedural generation than a place to talk about methods, learn from other people, ask questions when we get stuck, like we do with other categories?
slender blade
I personally don't see troubleshooting channels about topics I don't care about as encouragement to care about them
fallen moon
If you don't care about proc gen, then the channel won't effect you at all, same with every other channel on here
sonic hazel
but then there would also need to be a procedural materials channel, or procedural animation, etc
fallen moon
It doesn't have to be separate, all that falls into procedural content. Just like paper 2d covers tilemaps, art, 2d concepts in general, etc
mint halo
What kind of topics would be in the procedural channel?
fallen moon
Procedural map generation, like Minecraft/terraria, where as you proceed it generates more and more world/worlds/etc
and
Regular random generation, where everything is generated at runtime for each level, like nuclear throne, binding of Isaac, spelunky, others
It will be a place for people to learn how to generate levels procedurally, applies different noise types (perlin, simplex), get different areas to function differently (like biomes in minecraft),
mint halo
This is likely the kind of thing you'd find at phy's voxel plugin server. But these topics come up in other channels as it is here already, you think there'd be utility in grouping them together?
fallen moon
I bought the voxel plugin, I've donated, it's a great system, but I think the goal is to keep people here, instead of sending them away
They come up in other channels because they don't have their own channel
azure valve
As far as I can tell, the channels are based on function rather than high concepts. I.e there isn’t an mmo channel or inventory system channel
fallen moon
Graphics, Animation, audio, cinematics, level design, visual fx are all high concepts just off a quick glance
main fossil
each of those have specific systems/features within unreal though; procgen could be discussed in #graphics #level-design #blueprint #cpp #visual-fx depending on the context
azure valve
Are they? They’re disciplines more than anything
fallen moon
So is random generation
main fossil
and it is probably beneficial to have them discussed in context
azure valve
Proceduralism is a topic rather than a disciple (yet)
Doesn’t really make sense to talk about mesh generation outside of graphics for example
mint halo
Not saying it wouldn't be useful, but I personally don't find a lot of point in grouping all things procedural into a channel unless i've mistaken something. Would say a good amount of conversation daily involves things being procedural, the term itself is kind of empty.
fallen moon
What do you mean the term itself is kind of empty?
mint halo
Well, dynamic vs procedural
azure valve
Break it down, what is proceduralism
mint halo
is procedural only dynamic that is seed based random?
yeah, like maybe i'm not understanding what your concept of it is?
fallen moon
In computing, procedural generation is a method of creating data algorithmically as opposed to manually, typically through a combination of human-generated assets and algorithms coupled with computer-generated randomness and processing power. In computer graphics, it is commonly used to create textures and 3D models.
main fossil
Proceduralism is a topic rather than a disciple (yet)
praise RNGesus
azure valve
So way not ask in #cpp or #blueprint
mint halo
so the channel would be garnered around this definition?
fallen moon
It's a discord channel, not a way of life, it's not this complicated
azure valve
It’s not a mole hole I’m dying on. 😜 but you need to back up your suggestion, otherwise the mods are just going to nod and ignore you
fallen moon
I already did
I explained what it is, what it would cover, and why it would be better for it to have its own channel
azure valve
So why does it belong outside of #cpp or #blueprint
fallen moon
azure valve
And?
mint halo
things that could fit into other channels probably aren't receiving their own.
mint halo
"graphics"
azure valve
mint halo
Its all there. All the graphics topics.
But yeah, a #procedural-chat could be a thing
just have to see if any response by anyone happens
fallen moon
#design-chat's tagline is:
Discuss the theory and practice of game design, level design, economy design, combat design, monetization design, and all the other kinds of designs that make games.
mint halo
why not, #first-mmorpg, introduction to complicated game design
fallen moon
I mean it literally names level design in its tagline
azure valve
That’s the joke mfg.
mint halo
I don't think anyone understands #design-chat yeah
drowsy oxide
Procedural Generation is not a popular enough topic to warrant its own channel. We would prefer that users discuss things in context rather than have a single channel that can get drowned in multiple areas of that particular topic.
If Proc Gen is something your interested in and your going to implement it in Blueprint, then discuss it in #blueprint.
If your more interested in creating heightmaps, discuss it in #graphics
Etc etc.
I much prefer that method then a single channel where my discussion about C++ implementation of Proc Gen disables other people who may want to discuss its usability in Heightmap generation in World Machine or something (which could be freely discussed in #graphics or #level-design ).
fallen moon
But then you're clogging the #blueprint or #graphics channel, which are bound to have a ton more traffic than a proc gen channel
If the issue is preventing steamrolling of other peoples' ideas and conversations, isn't the fix to give it it's own channel?
drowsy oxide
No its not. More channels does not equal a better experience.
fallen moon
Conversations about heightmaps can still go on in #graphics, or proc gen in blueprints
drowsy oxide
The point is moot eitherway, as i said earlier, there is not a sufficient enough level of discussion on Proc Gen in any channel to warrant separating it out.
fallen moon
More channels =/= better experience, but it does mean more conversations at once. If the issue is (like you said) not wanting to stop people from talking about other topics, giving it its own channel would solve that worry, not make it worse
azure valve
As an aside. I’d definitely join the Houdini server if it interests you. Not exactly engine related but it’s a nice community
drowsy oxide
More conversations is also not a better experience, you risk alienating people.
If we see the need for something to be separated then we will of course do so. But right now, there is no need.
fallen moon
So is the plan to merge some of these channels that server the same/extremely similar purposes?
Like we were joking above, the #design-chat's tagline literally includes "Level design", when #level-design is also a thing
drowsy oxide
#design-chat Has always been the problem child and we are working on it.
chilly ivy
Our channels list definitely needs work, and I'd like to revisit it later this year. Discord is working on server analytics, which would give us a lot of useful data to make more educated decisions about which channels are popular, which should be merged or removed, etc. It's very likely we'll wait until then to make any more changes to the channels list.
gritty lotus
Procedural generation of anything is a topic that exists outside of the confines of UE4; I would go so far as to suggest that it probably makes more sense to find a relevant community if you want to discuss it in more detail than implementation inside UE4
fast skiff
well, ue4 does have specific things though https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/BlueprintAPI/Components/ProceduralMesh/index.html
gritty lotus
That's more of a convenience than an actual feature though
It's not strictly for 'procedural generation'
More for procedural editing
left estuary
i durped and for some reason, unrealbot posted my lfw thing twice. can someone delete the first post? please and thank you
fallen moon
@gritty lotus almost every channel here is a topic that exists outside of the confines of UE4. The goal is to keep developers here instead of sending them elsewhere, no?
sonic hazel
you mean like streaming?
or events?
you do realise this is an unofficial ue4 community right? 🙂
fallen moon
Yes, that's my point
gritty lotus
honestly, I feel like procedural generation is so niche, and when actually used, specific to a project that it's kinda funky to have a channel for it here
sonic hazel
this server is nearing 32.000 members, no way all channels everyone opts for can be added, majority of channels are as global as possible to include every sub-topic, some weird choices are made sometimes, but in the big red line - its not possible to add 500 channels to cover every aspect
gritty lotus
I mean, I do a lot of procedural stuff, but it's all totally specific to whatever my current problem is
sonic hazel
imho procedural programming (for/in UE4) should be in either BP or CPP, its a progamming skill after all
mint halo
Well it’s possible though, unless there’s some discord limit?
gritty lotus
aye, I usually ask pertinent questions in either of the programming channels
there is a limit in Discord, no idea what it is
128, I think
fallen moon
Physics, multiplayer, ai, etc are all programming skills too
sonic hazel
if you can find a mod whois willing to monitor 500 channels, then yes its possible, else the chinese awnserhub spammers will comer over here 😄
gritty lotus
physics, multiplayer, AI aren't niche
fallen moon
Neither is proc gen, though
gritty lotus
practically every game has at least one of those, if not all three
proc gen is super niche
the implementations more so
it's one thing to do cave generation using constructive solid geometry like Deep Rock Galactic, and another to write a generic foliage placement tool, and another again to do procedural zip-lines like I did today
sonic hazel
that moment you write something and @silver heath starts to type so you delete your writing
silver heath
How is proc gen different, from coding stuff with #cpp or #blueprint and making it look decent with #graphics ?
gritty lotus
arguably most gameplay code or tools are procedural to a degree 😄
mint halo
#hardware-chat would be nice to not make lounge so full of it.
gritty lotus
yeah, that I could get behind
mint halo
I get it’s not real ue4 specific and it’s been brought up before, but feel like there are eyeballs rolling when lounge is full of it
sonic hazel
I think its the most frequent denied request :P
azure valve
A read only partners channel would also be nice. Throw all links to useful servers in there (Houdini, blender, zbrush, substance, voxel plugin, etc). So we don’t have to dance with death every time someone needs to be redirected 😜
mint halo
Maybe even pinned invites to software specific servers for the channels too. "Read the pins" etc
wise bough
I would like to ask a couple of questions about the Unreal Python API. The obvious forum for me is Programming/Editor-Scripting. Someone asked something related to the Python API there but no answer so far. Can the Admin consider creating a specific forum for the Python Scripting in Unreal?
chilly ivy
@wise bough We have a channel for #editor-scripting. 🙂
Is there a reason why you think Python should have a separate channel?
azure valve
wise bough
@chilly ivy I'm not sure the Python API is being used as much as it would be necessary to get people asking and answering in a reasonable volume, but the few questions about it in the #editor-scripting has not been answered. A new forum could help in raising this volume. But thanks, I will go ahead and ask in the #editor-scripting forum
gritty lotus
well, the only thing you do with Python in UE4 is editor scripting; having a second forum would just split the already tiny audience over two channels and just make responses even harder to get
unfortunately for you, I think the reality is that very few people bother with it
in our case if we want to do stuff in the editor... we just modify the editor
fleet surge
the only people who use it are the enterprise customers who asked epic to make the thing in the first place and they won't post on the forum or here
chilly ivy
Smaller digital agencies use it, too. They're big on editor scripting because it enables more control over the pipeline, and they work with big assets.
ocean siren
It's definitely in use, the real question is whether the people who use it are going to see things in #editor-scripting
mint halo
How about a channel exclusively for crashes? "Post your log file and explain" type deal.
I realize #ue4-general is probably the place to post such thing, but also because its description is "for what does not fit elsewhere"
Would skip the step of requesting logs (ideally)
deft raft
I would see poeple not realizing the channel exists and still posting to #ue4-general or the matching channel of their choice. And a channel just for redirecting them also seems weird.
If at all we should have some groundrules for posting questions, such as "Add a log if you have one."
mint halo
Yeah I mean people post there to ask where to post but #more-resources is a thing. Just was thinking a formal log post channel crash channel would take some weight off. people post to unreal-engine after finding the proper place to post and not getting a response as well.
Just the idea of a channel where your expected to find a log kinda sounded like streamlining things a bit. Unreal-engine is destined to be what it is lol
Could still complain of crashes in #ue4-general but a channel of responding to log files sounds cool anyways
mental vessel
Nah... they will post in #design-chat because the crash occurred during their design of material graphs.
hazy elk
90% of crash reports would be due to nullptr access in c++ 😂
mint halo
#crash-chat
azure valve
Imagine how many direct copy/paste of the log there would be
mint halo
They would be outside of #ue4-general too 
chilly ivy
If anything at all, I would rather provide guidelines for more effectively asking for help with crashes than to create a dumping ground for crash logs.
mint halo
could change topic to General discussion about Unreal Engine that doesn't fit in other channels including crashes. Please consider attaching a log when applicable.
brittle orchid
the office's #crashes channel gets used heavily lmao
forest agate
you know discord now uploads more than 1000 characters as a .txt file, so it might not end up being that bad.
mint halo
Eh idea would be to have a central place someone could look to post and understand common crashes going on
mint halo
more or less what i was thinking yeah.
didn't intend to make it sound like a place only for crash logs to live. it'd be people discussing them too
mint halo
yeah, it would be a new utility and somewhere i'd probably lurk just to get an idea of crashes in new releases and help people etc.
low flicker
Dear <@&213101288538374145> , what is going on in #mobile? Please check latest post. Is this political propaganda? Looks very off-topic, not like a meme or inside joke. Thanks.
fleet stag
Not sure where to post this, but how do I set up an ad for the #looking-for-talent / #looking-for-work
chilly ivy
@fleet stag The instructions for each channel are available in their respective pinned messages.
Visit the channel and click the 📌 icon next to search.
fleet stag
I looked at the pin and its not clear to me, sorry I'm autistic (Asperger syndrome) and some written information doesn't always sounds clear to me
chilly ivy
You need to send a special message to @open radish, which will cause the bot to ask you questions about what you want to post in the ad. Then it posts the ad on your behalf when you're done. Does that make sense?
fleet stag
ah I see, okay
chilly ivy
One thing to keep in mind: the bot only allows 30 seconds for each response. That's why I wrote all the questions in that pinned message, so you can prepare your answers before messaging the bot if you need to. 🙂
fleet stag
yeah I relize that so gonna put the questions through word and then copy paste my answers for the ad
chilly ivy
OK great. 👍
fleet stag
oh am I aloud to post links for my ad, the game I'm making is a spiritual successor to a small game I developed
and I have links to the game and some links to Let's Play videos of said game
chilly ivy
Yes that's fine. You can put links in the Job Description section.
fleet stag
okay thanks. oh just so I understand and make sure I don't put the wrong info, the project is starting out as I need some people to help develop a demo for the game which I will use to promote a Kickstarter and if the projects gets the funding, then I hire the people to continue to help develop the game, by that what should I pick (Permanent, Contract, Freelance) and (Paid, Royalty, Unpaid)?
chilly ivy
Since you'd only be paying people if funding is acquired at a later date, I would recommend marking it as Freelance and Unpaid.
Just remember to explain what you just told me in the job description.
fleet stag
yep that part is being mention and Remote means across the web?
chilly ivy
Yes.
fleet stag
okay great thanks
mint halo
does the gdc channel usually start with gdc? or is there some hype up to it?
azure valve
Will there be a gdc channel this year?
chilly ivy
Yes, we will have a GDC channel again. Currently planning to open it about a week before the conference starts.
grim vector
Hello, I'm new here, in my opinion the Looking For Work automated questionnaire should include a Compensation Option: with Paid or Upaid or Royalty and what ever other options seem appropriate. ... It would be really nice to know who is open for working on a Royalty basis?
wraith glade
It would need to be a list, so someone could indicate that they're interested in several options
gritty lotus
should probably just ditch royalty, it's basically 'unpaid' anyway
wraith glade
Is there one for collaboration?
E.g. Looking for team?
I kind of naively thought that was that royalty was used for
amber cloud
is a there a good place for productivity/teamwork tips?
i.e. I'd like throw a link to https://www.notion.so/
just discovered it, looks like a good blend of Trello with Hack'n'Plan and bit more
where to go with it?
or this isn't Unreal enough? 😛
deft raft
Honestly we have no channel for this.
I still think stuff like this should go into a wiki somewhere. A channel just for posting this stuff is pointless and posting it to #ue4-general or similar will get it spammed away. I also don't want to pin third party apps everywhere.
mint halo
@grim vector it does. No one seems interested
You can scroll up, the color codes are the same as looking for talent
mint halo
The color codes? 😄 assume green money is the reason for it. Though can understand how a “red” flag would be a reason to not post as unpaid.
azure valve
People want to be paid. Surprise, surprise
Although come to think about it. Not the best colour scheme for the colour blind.
mint halo
Its a little weird there is any color code to it in general
azure valve
Nothing wrong with redundancy
mint halo
Yeah, big red bar next to the post just seems abrasive for both channels maybe. The rich text thing in discord supports images to a point too, but not really a big deal. Still not sure waht buch meant.
mental vessel
I think #more-resources can really benefit from more information about what is each channel really. Currently it just repeat their infos only. But if for example there is a small hyperlink to wiki or something, after #design-chat or #level-design, it would be helpful for the few curious people who were sent in #more-resources because they were offtopic.
deft raft
I think Nick is actively rewriting this.
digital bay
I have a long list of UE4 jobs going at my place (8 roles altogether that are directly working in UE4, plus other roles such as Producer). I don't want to spam the jobs page, but also, the time it takes to prep each one, making sure the details I copy from the jobs page are within the character limit, etc, means its a lot of work and the cancelling timeout is quite aggressive. Could we think about a better way to post jobs (they're in-house, permanent, paid, full-time & in a studio)?
chilly ivy
Cedric is correct: new #more-resources and #old-rules are both on the way.
@digital bay The job board is going to be overhauled soon as well. 🙂
We did a big survey last year and got lots of great feedback.
Bulk posting jobs is one I hadn't thought of or heard from others about, though.
digital bay
@chilly ivy Thanks, yeah, its just a bit of a chore... "Company", "Title", "Paid", "Location", "Roles"... etc etc * bajillion times
So any changes that would help
we're eager to fill the roles 🙂
chilly ivy
Coming up with a non-spammy way to post several roles is a very interesting challenge. Certainly sounds difficult given Discord's format, and that every role has unique requirements.
digital bay
I'd be content with just listing:
"[These roles], this location, this company, FT, Perm, <link here>" 🤷
chilly ivy
So essentially foregoing the details/reqs sections for each job so you can collapse them into one embed?
That would work great as long as you have an external job post to link to on your studio's website.
digital bay
We do, we use Lever for recruitment
do wonder if its even possible to scrape, but that's a bunch of work 😄
chilly ivy
Indeed. Especially since every website is going to format their post a little differently, which means building one heck of a scraper. 😄
digital bay
Aye - alright, we'll I'm off soon for the weekend, but I'll compile a proper format for all the roles for Monday and put them up then. I appreciate most roles posted here are typically single jobs, we're just on a bit of a spree right now
chilly ivy
For sure, I understand. Thanks for bringing this up! I may explore a way to accommodate this in the job board update.
If you have trouble making a multi-role post work with the current bot, please let me know.
gritty lotus
You can still post a 'multiple openings' type advert with the relevant links in the description?
mint halo
probably any mod could help, but would let pfist know of that error
fallen beacon
<@&213101288538374145>, @chilly ivy sorry to bother, I made a mistake on the listing I posted on the looking for talent channel, how can I remove this listing? I do apologize and will TRIPLE check my proof reading next time
stoic goblet
just ask
it's a feature we want to add, but until it's added we'll happily delete it for you
it's gone
fix it up 🙂
fallen beacon
Thank you so much Roy! 🙂
sly torrent
I'd say v-fx and niagara should be merged, there doesn't seem to be enough traffic between the two to justify two channels
chilly ivy
We will probably merge them when Niagara leaves beta.
mint halo
I would wait until everyone knows niagara really lol
wind bloom
I also made a mistake on my looking-for-talent post. Would it be possible to have it removed so I could try again?
chilly ivy
@wind bloom Sure thing. I'll take care of it.
wind bloom
thanks
chilly ivy
This one?
wind bloom
yeah
chilly ivy
Done.
wind bloom
thanks again
alpine fog
hi, i am looking for help/guidance is there a #chat or anyone willing to help/tutor me ?
azure valve
#looking-for-talent read pinned message
late plank
#design-chat might have to be renamed to "design theory" or otherwise something that stops people from going there for all manner of project troubleshooting.
late plank
(IIRC the channel was called "game design" before, but likewise people equate that to anything related to gamedev.)
deft raft
design theory will cause the same problem. Too many people don't know what it is.
mental vessel
I think the word "theory" would stop at least questions like how to lighting on/off, import mesh settings and etc. But I'm fan of "game-theory", its enough alienating.
deft raft
"Game Theory" != "Game Design".
You are basically proving the point that peeps don't know what Game Design is about.
mental vessel
Do you insist so much to be a "design"? What is so bad about it?
I doubt it's about the profession itself, as there are many others which miss already.
... what is the point to insist on name which is not understood and fail to streamline the discussion?
Came up with another idea, which may be good 🙂 "how-to-design-games" Like it.
deft raft
The point is that the channel was supposed to be about "Game Design" and not "Game Theory" or anything else.
And people don't understand it at all. Even if you call it "How To Design Games", there will be A LOT of beginners who will ask "My code doesn't work, how do I do this?".
It's clear by now that the channel concept doesn't work out at all. We will see what we do with it.
mental vessel
"We will see what we do with it" - that what many people are trying to help you with.
deft raft
Yes, but renaming it is most likely not working out.
mental vessel
Hmm... if you compare it with these two options I gave you - you might be right.
But I see not much of other variants. You either gonna delete it, or provoke users to know about it.
deft raft
Try to compare it to other channels that have a more known meaning.
Like #blueprint. If you start seeing tons of, idk, #graphics posts in it cause people don't understand the difference between the material editor and the blueprint one, then I don't see the solution being to rename it to something that doesn't actually reflect what it was meant for.
The concept of the #design-chat fails at the point where users don't know what it's about, aren't reading the description or understanding it and also aren't able to research the topic before posting into it.
And at that point we will most likely be forced to remove it and move the design discussions passively into the channels where they happe nout of the blue.
mental vessel
Well, its better to do something than to wonder all the time, not? I mean, it was "game-design" -> bad. It is "design-chat" -> again bad. Might try something else and see.
Your last idea, about removing might be the best then, lol. It is rarely actually used by intent so far.
Anyway, I don't intent to fight on that. Was provoked due to high level of noise there.
deft raft
Don't worry, I don't see this as a fight. I know renaming is something that makes sense at first and I value the naming ideas.
I just don't see the name being the problem.
Blame the people :D
mental vessel
Aah, don't wanna. They are too many 😄
So, anyway if renaming is not an option. I'm for removal. Not sure whether it is worthy opinion, lol.
deft raft
It is the one I suggested internally.
azure valve
I’m curious if the placement within general category is a factour. It’s high on the list and would stick out like a sore thumb due to the adjacent channels in the eyes of someone who thinks design = all form of development.
Most likely why people are suggesting using jargons and such for channel name.
sonic hazel
On mobile you don't see the channel descriptions
amber cloud
and I guess almost nobody reads channel descriptions, let's be real 😉
I noticed descriptions because you guys started talking about it
removing channel is a really bad idea given that is truly difficult to find ANY place to have a meaningful chat with other designers
professional game designers can use specialized or/and closed forums - which aren't great
or go for a beer in their town and have awesome talk - but that's possible in the industry hubs like Warsaw and when already being part of the industry
"design-chat" name is so bad (as non-descriptive) that renaming to anything could help a bit
sonic hazel
"Design" could be designing anything and is way to global, same for "game-design", i dont think even "project design" would be a proper name. Its fightning against people masses that follow the universal truth of the shortest and easiest route. It cannot be won ever.
amber cloud
design-theory, paper-design, game-design or whatever still would a bit better, even if that wouldn't solve a problem
sonic hazel
Maybe time to add a new category "Theory", several channels could fall under that and would be an improvememt considered the "General" category
amber cloud
or maybe we should move #design-chat under content/programming categories
sonic hazel
Put it under the General category and it wont be the first stop for people anymore
amber cloud
exactly!
people are lazy, so if somebody wants to ask a question to solve his implementation problem, he just stop at the first "matching" room
amber cloud
and General category contains some niche rooms that could be lower: #source-control, #packaging, #game-jam-chat
these rooms could belong to Production/Teamwork category