they don't care about anything under it
#server-feedback
rich sky
but meh
you can mute the whole category
collapsing, bascially is just keeping it cleaner for you
so you don't have to wander into empty rooms to look if you don't want to
crude violet
So there's no way for me to only show the channels I want to see? o_O
elfin scarab
Well... Category name fills one more line between the channel names... I think they shouldnt pop in, having a lil notification on the category name if any of the unmuted channels under that category has messages would be better imo, but thats more on discord end, nothing we could do
Good job boys!
rich sky
@crude violet if you only want certain channels, just mute the ones you don't want
if you want, you can mute whole categories
if you collapse only, it will only show unread msg channels
crude violet
Yeah but they're still visible if the category is not collapsed.
crude violet
Ah yeah, found it, by clicking Unreal Slackers. ๐
crude violet
It's kind of strange the way the whole system was set up.
It would make more sense for users to be able to create their own categories and reorder things however they liked.
celest zenith
oh where is my raspberry or strawberry jam?
crude violet
Yeah I know, it was more meant for Discord devs. ๐
crude violet
celest zenith
#source-control why it's not in with #engine-source รคt the same category?
crude violet
Anyway hiding channels works fine. ๐
chilly ivy
What post?
rich sky
Unless I am just dumb
You said we PM the bot the job posts now right?
And it will auto pin into the right slot?
Or did you not update the guide yet?
chilly ivy
Wow, hello. I am the failure.
chilly ivy
Didn't even add the bot instructions to the #more-resources.
So sorry about that.
Lots going on.
rich sky
ohhh, ok
hearty orchid
Nice changes! Personally would bump up level design and vfx over archviz and cinematics.Also does UI warrant itโs own section with slate / umg? May be easier to just have a single UI channel under content creation. Other than that love it all!
stoic goblet
ui sometimes gets fairly program-y
rich sky
Why did you all put ue4-general chat un #general ?
stoic goblet
which is why it got it's own category
rich sky
Or rather, why isn't #lounge under off-topic
If you are going to keep general-chat there, can you add something like ue4-general
or rename lounge to offtopic?
deft raft
UI was part of an internal discussion.
Slate was in Programming while UMG was in Art.
Which I wasn't happy with at all. So we decided to put them into their own category.
hearty orchid
Ah makes sense I didnโt even see the slate category before
deft raft
:P So your list was A+?
hearty orchid
Would still bump vfx and level design over archviz and cinematics as they are more specific but thatโs the most nitpicking thing I can think of
Great job
rich sky
My list was S
deft raft
We are currently thinking about Popular vs Alphabetical
I like Alphabetical more, as you can easier find the channels
deft raft
But it's not up to me to decide
deft raft
I will bring up the general and lounge stuff
It is kinda
However that you tell me that it should be different already shows me that relevancy is not good.
As people think different about channels
So Popularity would end up being "Most used channel"
Which ordering it by popularity just increases that
But, yeah, let's see what we come up with
hearty orchid
Not popularity necessarily but like people would likely want to find vfx over archviz when creating content.
But I see your points for sure
Nothing is hard to find anyway and Iโm sure itโll be clear for everyone
Archviz and cinematics just feel like broad fields in comparison to say audio is what I meant by that. But itโs a massive nitpick and doesnโt matter really
crude violet
Great, a cinematics channel so I can whine about sequencer all day. ๐
hearty orchid
Or 50 how to open doors with matinee requests
I still have no idea why people used matinee for that
Anyway great job guys, revamp is much improved!
digital socket
The tutorials for UDK (including the example level) used matinee. Beats me why.
hearty orchid
Yeah many of the non official UE4 ones do too
slow belfry
silk tulip
I don't mind the categories, they aren't bad but I do think we sectioned programming a bit too hard. That said I think we should sort the channels based on popularity and drop the ones that aren't more than 1000 messages in one channel per month. Any channel falling under that should be automatically cut. It's a very very low bar for messages in a channel I think but I also don't have data like that but it would be interesting to have some sort of bar like that.
rich sky
I disagree with dropping channels
The only reason I say this, is due to discord search
And just because there are fewers folks doing work on that specific thing
crude violet
If you don't want to see a channel you can just mute/hide it anyway. ๐
rich sky
Doesn't mean it's necessarily "poop"
deft raft
Dropping channels is a thing if they aren't used.
But we can only decide that after watching them for a longer time.
rich sky
Why not though?
deft raft
Cause they can fit into the more general channel. 10 messages a week don't annoy anyone
And it removes a bit of the clutter
rich sky
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
deft raft
We certainly will if it's not used
crude violet
10 messages a week #unreal-news ๐ค
deft raft
Just giving it a chance
rich sky
lol
crude violet
๐
rich sky
yeah, see
celest zenith
you can always minimize so the list get smaller
rich sky
Just because a channel dfoesn't get used often, shouldn't mean it gets cut
Someone will find a use for it
deft raft
That's not what channels are for though
rich sky
And even if it just helps out a few % of devs, it's better than nothing
digital socket
For forums it would work that way, but Discord's a bit different.
deft raft
They split discussion to make it easier and distribute people better
Not to have a place with a name to put your every week question that might come up
rich sky
Man, you know as well as I do though, that only maybe 1% of the devs on this server actually type anything
For whatever reasons they have
deft raft
Still, I don't see why a channel with low usage should remain.
It can make room for a channel that is more requested
rich sky
Hopefully though, the threat of losing channels will inspire more to become more active
Because of Discord Search
Or Pinned messages
It's just easy to direct folks to the appropriate channel
crude violet
If it's a niche channel search gets that more effective.
rich sky
Where there is already info (hopefully) that can help them out
deft raft
The thing is, Discord is not well made for preserving information
That's why I wanted the gameplay abilities thing as a forum thread
rich sky
I just think it's more of a organization thing I guess, compartmentization
digital socket
Gameplay abilities deserves a big wiki page. Maybe it has one.
rich sky
it does
digital socket
It also needs info graphs. A half dozen at least.
deft raft
It does. I doubt people will search for already answered questions here
rich sky
I don't know why it didn't just get merged into "plugins"
deft raft
so we would need to pin every answer?
rich sky
let me look at the desciption actually
rich sky
Ah, that's for making plugins, cool, at least a few of my channels got added
digital socket
Hm. It's not actually clear that #plugin-dev is solely for developing plugins.
silk tulip
@deft raft agreed with the channel dropping, Enough time to give these channels a real shot at being productive (go #linux go!) but if it doesn't happen we shouldn't clog up the channel list with them.
stoic goblet
i mean, we did look at your ideas victor ๐
rich sky
Life is so unfair
stoic goblet
it's collaborative ๐
chilly ivy
I still think it would be cool to get a community project going in #gameplay-ability-system. Set up a GitHub repo with community-driven docs for the plugin and use the channel to facilitate discussion as it does currently. Could also set up a colored role for GitHub contributors or something like that.
rich sky
Hmmm
deft raft
It's sad that we need to do that.. Epic...
silk tulip
I mean technically the system isn't supported.
rich sky
people constantly ask about it
chilly ivy
And yeah @rich sky your proposal was nuts, but we still took it into account. We looked at a lot of community feedback for this.
There were good channel ideas in there.
silk tulip
So while epic should and they certainly do have a sample project out already (unofficially) I am sure if they release it officially it will contain a project.
rich sky
But for real... #collaboration
deft raft
Care to refresh my mind on the collaboration thing?
rich sky
I don't know, I just made it up because @chilly ivy said something about a group project
But I have seen requests that don't fit in "jobs"
for people to just get together and start projects, some open-sourced
silk tulip
you mean careers?
rich sky
well, careers is just about job talk now
silk tulip
gotta stick to that channel branding.
stoic goblet
nah, I think he means a place for more friendly "in your spare time" teamups
not really jobs
silk tulip
ah
open radish
Maybe rename the Game Jams category to Collaboration and add a Collaboration channel to it?
stoic goblet
game jams is for actual game jams tho
rich sky
Aye
rich sky
If anything, you could break that away and make a collaboration category
silk tulip
other collabs
chilly ivy
There are going to be more related channels there: that's why it's a whole category.
stoic goblet
doesn't polycount have a collabs board?
rich sky
Or else I'll keep suggesting stuff
silk tulip
Yeah
stoic goblet
i wonder how useful that is for them
deft raft
Of course you will. Cause you want it your way
silk tulip
Are we doing specific jams under the game jam category?
deft raft
Everyone here wants it their way
But we can't make everyone happy
We listen to suggestions. Keep them coming
silk tulip
I would more or less think of this channel as a brainstorm for server feedback. It's great to have and be able to form creative ideas but it's still a storm of them.
So we just see what sticks
seems to work so far
stoic goblet
also, it does help to get past the "ew it's new" phase
silk tulip
yup ๐
stoic goblet
eh
rich sky
This was long overdue
stoic goblet
it's different for everyone
stoic goblet
how long it takes for people to get past the "ew it's new" phase ๐
deft raft
Well good thing we didn't rush it
rich sky
why not
deft raft
Otherwise, who knows, I totally wired list like yours would have made it
silk tulip
honestly if you legit asked me side by side which list was better.... I dunno if I could say yes the new way is 100% better in every way.
deft raft
Rather putting more brain into it before rushing it
rich sky
Shoot, my list would have been just fine too
chilly ivy
I care about doing it well, not first. Rushing things like this only leads to more problems.
stoic goblet
i mean, it's just channel categories
silk tulip
yeah
stoic goblet
lets be real here
deft raft
You had a tutorial and faq channel per category, which alone made up 20 channels+
stoic goblet
there are hundreds of ways to skin this cat(egory)
silk tulip
wtf
rich sky
Come on now...
silk tulip
thank god
chilly ivy
Don't worry, Victor. You'll be happy soon enough.
deft raft
We take care of this differently.
There are more elegant ways
rich sky
What about a Tips-And-Tricks ?
chilly ivy
What's wrong with FAQs @silk tulip?
deft raft
Well I'm out for now. Cheers!
rich sky
Yeah, I think at least a FAQ for the main parts would be helpful.
digital socket
There is now a #more-resources channel.
stoic goblet
i mean, in general, I think a lot of thought needs to be put into what problems are we trying to solve first, then figure out if all the ways (good and bad) that those problems can be solved
FAQs are just one way to solve a problem
silk tulip
So the biggest issue I see with FAQs is that they are taken too literal. FAQ was created as a easily researchable format for common issues.
rich sky
Which needs to be user generated, not only by mods
silk tulip
Now days people just throw up everything on a FAQ in Q&A format without realising we have FAR better tools for that.
deft raft
Never seen user generated FAQs. At least not actively
stoic goblet
I think the wiki is probably best for FAQs
deft raft
Usually you put the FAQ into the FAQ
silk tulip
^
rich sky
Look at GDN
silk tulip
wiki is exactly what I was going to say
rich sky
or rather GDL
stoic goblet
and, I think the worst thing you can do is have a FAQ that is months outdated
silk tulip
GDN isn't a good discord
rich sky
their FAQ channel is good
deft raft
You can put everything in this Discord Server, buddy
silk tulip
^
stoic goblet
GDN?
deft raft
But I doubt that helps in the long run
rich sky
GDL not GDN
open radish
I don't think #more-resources is the best name for that channel. If I had just joined, I probably would have just skipped over it. Should rename to something like #rules or #readme
silk tulip
at a certain point there are resources outside of this discord
stoic goblet
GDL?
silk tulip
game dev league
stoic goblet
I will have to look into it
silk tulip
random split from RGD I think
rich sky
deft raft
I left that server >.>
stoic goblet
RGD?
silk tulip
Reddit game dev
rich sky
Just click on that link
stoic goblet
oh
rich sky
And you'll see
rich sky
And sorry I linked another server, but it was easier to just link it than try to explain
silk tulip
There are like 50 billion of these bad game discords
rich sky
GDL's pretty nice
silk tulip
RGD is one of the ones I stick around because I am marked as "professional"
deft raft
There Server works differently
FAQ for UE4 is totally fine
But for us that would require faq for each channel which won't happen
chilly ivy
We are planning to add an FAQ channel to address common questions we get here on the server. It would be curated by us (the mods), read-only to regular members. The idea is when new members are waiting 10 minutes to talk, they can read #more-resources and #faq and, hopefully, we curb the number of repeat simple questions we get from newcomers.
stoic goblet
not just for each channel, but each topic
silk tulip
The other part of it is that this is an engine specific discord
stoic goblet
and there are a lot of topics
I can see it going absolutely bonkers if followed to it's natural conclusion
in which case a wiki is better for that
deft raft
I think some people have to see Discord as for what it is, a chat.
Forums are there for a reason. Same are wikis.
FAQs and longer, sticking discussions should go there
(my opinion)
silk tulip
While Unreal Slackers is an awesome community
if you put everything in a discord
I will hate it
deft raft
I wouldn't want everything here
silk tulip
get a website at least if you wanna branch out ๐
chilly ivy
We're not going to put everything here. I have plans for this community outside of the Discord server.
rich sky
@chilly ivy yo, lfw and work definitely do NOT work
deft raft
I use this for quick help and fast response on problems
rich sky
But talent does
silk tulip
lol
chilly ivy
@rich sky Thanks, looking into it.
silk tulip
I know I have commitment issues @stoic goblet
rich sky
oh wtf
silk tulip
no thats a reasonable response
the jobs thing is something that can't be solved right away
What do you want nick to do here? poop gold?
chilly ivy
@silk tulip I would love to do a website with community-driven UE4 resources that's powered by a GitHub repo we all contribute to.
rich sky
@chilly ivy I lied, Talent doesn't work either at the end
stoic goblet
we tried that with the dota modding community
rich sky
I get an error messag saying to contact you
stoic goblet
it kinda worked
chilly ivy
@rich sky I think I know why. Give me a moment.
stoic goblet
if there was more buy-in, I think it would have worked
oh, they dont work as in they have errors?
silk tulip
@chilly ivy ๐ฎ that actually seems awesome
stoic goblet
I thought you were talking on a conceptual level lol
silk tulip
does not work is the worst term to use for bug reports?
stoic goblet
no, I think the worst term is "it's broken"
silk tulip
lol
digital socket
Broken at least tells you it's broken. Does not work is even more ambiguous.
silk tulip
actually thats a really good point
stoic goblet
"does not work". Fixed by making user look at screen
digital socket
"is shit" is the worst feedback.
crude violet
Also not really related to the categories stuff but is there a reason why Dannthr and minuskelvin aren't listed as Epic Staff?
chilly ivy
@crude violet They elected not to be highlighted.
crude violet
Okay. ๐
chilly ivy
I always ask before adding the role. Some folks use different usernames here and prefer to keep them separate.
chilly ivy
@rich sky I pushed a fix for the job commands. Can you try again, please?
๐ Poll
Which would be a better name for #ue4-general?
- #unreal-chat
- #unreal-dev
- #general-ue4
- #general-support
- Stay the same
rich sky
@chilly ivy Nope, LFT doesn't work
I'll try LFW
(I get to the end and error out)
LFW is broke too at the end
Also... 30 secs is way too short
I timed out a lot
chilly ivy
I will increase or remove the timer if it's feasible, but for now I recommend writing the longer portions of your post outside of Discord. Posting the questions to the channel for reference to make that easier.
rich sky
Also, might be better to show all the questions up front, so everyone has an idea of what's to come
It's not that
It's just I didn't have the time to respond actually
Maybe I am just a slow typer
chilly ivy
Bummer. Well again, I'm looking into improving that part of the experience. Thanks.
So both commands let you get to the end and then break?
What error are you getting?
rich sky
chilly ivy
Might be something to do with categories affecting the API.
rich sky
chilly ivy
Weird. Compensation should never be undefined since it's a required question.
rich sky
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
rich sky
k, let me know
daring raven
I really like the new look! Great job!
daring raven
Good job to everyone that helped then!
rich sky
that's LFT
I think it's because I messed up the first time with the payment
there might be something that doesn't clean up my "mistake"
let me try to get it 100% right in one go
chilly ivy
Nah it's probably my fault.
chilly ivy
Latest commit: https://i.imgur.com/f4B1ZtU.png
rich sky
looks a bit funny though
chilly ivy
Yeah, I deleted it. Thanks for checking out the commands.
The more people use them, the better they'll get. Lots of stuff I can't test for in isolation.
chilly ivy
In what way?
I'd love to hear suggestions for more questions you think LFW should ask.
chilly ivy
OK.
rich sky
yeah
Hmm
Man, it's so hard to try to type everything out in 30 secs for the skills description for sure though
chilly ivy
It occurs to me now that there should probably be a Skills header.
That's probably what looks weird to you.
stoic goblet
@chilly ivy shouldn't the bot link the user in #looking-for-work?
that way people can PM the user
that might be a maybe, I can see arguments for either or
chilly ivy
Yeah, that would certainly make it easier to DM someone.
stoic goblet
yeah
chilly ivy
I guess that might not be very common since they're on Discord.
stoic goblet
I just noticed it didn't link and had a "hmm, maybe it should?" moment
chilly ivy
I think I'll leave it as is for a while and see which one is the minority in practice.
silk tulip
+1 to see it link if possible/easy
people can use privacy settings if they don't want DMs
ocean siren
So if you post a listing, is there an easy way to remove it yourself? That'd be the next feature IMO.
chilly ivy
Not currently but that's a great feature to add in the future.
ocean siren
This'd be a big feature, but you can have Unrealbot message people x days after they posted - Is your listing still relevant?. Keep it nice and clean and avoid removing listings which are still active.
Dunno if you'd planned to prune.
hearty orchid
Am I crazy or has the AI channel disappeared?
drowsy oxide
#gameplay-ai @hearty orchid
hearty orchid
Ah on mobile it was auto minimizing the programming tab- thanks @drowsy oxide
drowsy oxide
๐
chilly ivy
Yeahhhh so it did. lol
silk tulip
maybe pinning?
chilly ivy
chilly ivy
Yeah, you'll have to click the pin to jump to the message before adding reactions.
But it's better than leaving it to collect dust. ๐
silk tulip
for sure
maybe post about it in general chat? I dunno
maybe just in the topic or such
"this channel is considering a rename, have an opinion on that? heres a poll!"
undone pike
Requesting a "Rendering/Optimization" channel
rich sky
Ah, that's another good one that got left out from my list
silk tulip
๐คฆ
rich sky
@silk tulip What, you don't think an optimization channel would have been good?
Stuff you can talk about GPU/CPU optimzations, profilers, etc
silk tulip
No I think it's petty to say "Ah, that's another good one that got left out from my list" anytime someone brings up a channel you once suggested in a long list of channels
but thats just me ๐คท
rich sky
Ah, I don't think it's petty though. Just statement of fact.
silk tulip
๐คท
craggy mesa
Thanks for the revamped channel structure, it's great
gritty lotus
I'm not so sure, there are too many channels now
I'm already struggling to keep tabs on the ones relevant to me
this is likely going to drive me away
gritty lotus
Okay yeah, I can't really use this; I can't collapse a category unless I mute all the channels, but I don't want to mute the channels, because if I do I can never see if there are new messages in them. At the same time, the channel list is so long I have to scroll back and forth through it all the time and it's already pissing me off
deft raft
Usually, if you collapse a category, channels with new messages show up
Despite the ones you muted i guess
Discord should add a feature to "fav" channels
So that they are ordered at the top for us
narrow jungle
i think the spacing between lines doesnt help much
deft raft
It's okayish, as I don't need most of the categories for myself
And if I do, i would just open the category
Yeah, but that's Discord stuff
I would have made the Categories more visible (a background to it)
narrow jungle
is there anyway to compact it a little bit client side?
deft raft
and then cut away the disctance between them
not that I know
Only if you use the browser version and edit the css style
gritty lotus
@deft raft - problem is I can collapse a channel, and that they uncollapse as new messages show up, so in order for collapsing to actually work I have to mute the channels
...at which point I wouldn't know if there were new messages in them, ever
open radish
logic = programming
jovial raft
I would make one suggestion about the changes - I don't see the reason for #plugin-dev. Plugin development is no different from any other UE4 C++ - a plugin can be regular game code, editor extensions, anything that can go in normal code modules. So it doesn't make sense to me to give it its own channel.
I'd say just merge it into #engine-source. Which is itself a little unclear - if it's referring to source-built engines, then that has no relation to the editor extensions in the description. And if it's just referring to engine code, well, all UE4 C++ programming is using/extending engine code.
I'd suggest maybe take cpp, engine-source and plugins, and change to cpp-gameplay and cpp-engine/editor. something along those lines.
jovial raft
I think some form of low-level coding channel is worthwhile. Engine mods and editor extensions are things that probably the majority have no interest in, so worth separating from general game programming in my opinion.
rich sky
HMm, I think plugin development should stay personally
It's not as simple as just "oh it's just an extension of C++"
It has it's own workflow completely outside it
But I do agree that Editor/Game module extension and plugins should be in the same channel
But outside C++
Because Plugin/Extension Dev is a while nother beast in itself and it would be useful to have guidance from those who have done so. Not everyone who's touched C++ has done any of that before.
deft raft
Then again, these people are also in the c++ channel
We are trying to cut down on some channels that are dividing the community too much and also trying to satisfy users that can't deal with all these channels
That's why we monitor and track the usage of these channels
We are also constantly renaming some categories (general discussion) and channels (ar-vr) to fit better.
The who channel/cagetory thing is a living, changing act. Will take time to find the perfect one
rich sky
the only issue I have
is I can't see every single channel on my 1440p 27"
I have to scroll a bit ๐
It would be nice if I could get it to show horizontally
But anyway
If anything, I would say cut out GameDesign, even though I used to love it
It just gets misused too much nowadays
Events will rarely see being used I think, unless it's meetup or game confs
narrow jungle
I don't really like there being a group with one channel (game jam)
unless there's gonna be jam specific channels poping up
i dont see the need for a category
rich sky
Sadly, as much as I love it, I have to agree
narrow jungle
maybe a 'community' category with game-jam intro, server feedback
rich sky
I think it could be under "collaboration
Which then can place source control under that
pure radish
rich sky
Blueprint Channel description revamp please.
Something along the lines of, ask questions relating to Blueprint related logic that you are having trouble with
Anything other than just "Blueprint Visual Scripting"
@chilly ivy #more-resources is outdated with channel list
crude violet
Animation is a bit strange too, Persona animation tools. You don't really use Persona for animation (unless you're a masochist), it's for previewing meshes/animations.
solemn onyx
In looking for work, it would be great to see a payment category too: unpaid / royalty / paid etc.
true aurora
So wait
Where's #graphics channel?
Which channel is for technical artistry? Is it #graphics or #visual-fx?
gloomy kiln
@true aurora yeah I agree, it was a really bad decision to rename #graphics to #graphics
there are too many channels now
I don't see how it helps to split the community apart so much
true aurora
I approve of #visual-fx, but #graphics is too generic
gloomy kiln
you can only really monitor 1 or 2 channels, so in the end, this leads to way less interaction
true aurora
#graphics implies art that's not related to engine stuff (textures etc)
#visual-fx clearly implies only special effects in-engine
So where does engine graphics stuff go
gloomy kiln
yeah, all the technical rendering stuff
gloomy kiln
there really need to be a rendering channel now or something similar
gloomy kiln
yeah
I don't really see what "art" should be for, there is #work-in-progress for people that want to show art
I also think its bad to split #source-control and #engine-source and #plugin-dev and #cpp , thats all just #programming and the programming channel worked great before I think. now this just means stuff will be forgotten in those small channels
true aurora
I would also suggest renaming #engine-source to #engine to be less confusing
#engine-and-plugins ?
@gloomy kiln well, two channels might be nice (have one be C++-centric and other one general engine-programming centric)
gloomy kiln
true aurora
#programming used to have in-depth discussions on specific engine topics. Splitting into two channels would definitely let people seek basic help in the other channel
And not interfere with the talking
gloomy kiln
ok, but there shouldn't be more than 2 channels for that
true aurora
Yeah
I certainly approve #visual-fx and #source-control
I think those two are good additions
drowsy oxide
There are many changes to come guys, we are working on it as everyones feedback has been in the same direction ๐
drowsy oxide
@gloomy kiln #work-in-progress isnt just for visual pieces, you maybe working on an cool algorithm that you would like to share.
Careers is for discussion while the Bot takes care of managing the Job Board
true aurora
#career-discussion? ๐
drowsy oxide
Could work ๐
true aurora
Cause I predict you're gonna have people coming in and seeking for job or advertising jobs otherwise on a regular basis
drowsy oxide
The Job Board is where they should look first if thats the case, they can discuss any positions openly in #career-chat instead of flooding the Job Board and burying the listings.
true aurora
I thought it was a chat for advertising positions, imagine there are people who don't pay attention to anything but the chat name
drowsy oxide
It can be for whatever. Its purpose is to give people an place to discuss anything Job related without burying existing postings that the Bot has created.
gloomy kiln
@drowsy oxide you shouldn't change around the channels so much though, it easily drives away people from here. should try to keep changes as few as possible
it was good that it stayed consistent for a long time
drowsy oxide
The update was an long time coming, the introduction of Categories to Discord gave us the perfect opportunity to make any changes. There will always be growing pains with such an large change like this but once it has settled again it shouldnt need to change anytime soon.
gloomy kiln
yeah, but you should try to settle it as soon as possible
drowsy oxide
We want that as well.
true aurora
I don't mind the channel changes
Just combine the redundant channels together
We don't need to be like GDL or GDN with a million channels
gloomy kiln
the biggest issue is really #graphics since that name excludes all the technical stuff, and lighting etc is a lot about technical stuff, not about art
#graphics was a really good channel for that, its fine to split out #visual-fx , but not just call it #graphics and exclude a huge part of what #graphics was before
drowsy oxide
General art questions โข Meshes, materials, lighting, etc.
Thats the description for #graphics
But we are aware that it has brought alot of confusion
gloomy kiln
yeah, the description isn't that bad, its similar to before. just the name #graphics is very bad
true aurora
At least you kept #legacy-physics ๐
I tried to get GDN to add a #legacy-physics channel, but they didn't wanna
gloomy kiln
I'm in no way an artist and I don't want to be, but #graphics was one of the most important channels for me.
true aurora
It was my fav channel too
drowsy oxide
We werent even 100% sure on the name for #graphics so its most likely going to be changed back. Once we know which channels need to be merged it will come with it.
Ive got to go now though. Good talk and suggestions! Rest assured we are ontop of it ๐
gloomy kiln
ok, just please make sure you don't wait too long so that all the technical folks are gone and not coming back...
that would be bad
true aurora
I can see someone in #cpp who didn't notice #plugin-dev chat
deft raft
Everyone is crying about different channels. "Don't split them but please make me a specific rendering channel." really? There were so many discussions and even a document where you all could participate in the future category and channel naming.
Non of you said something. The document had even more channels.
Now that we changed things you all come up arguing how bad it is.
That's literally how voting in countries works. Don't call it bad if you didn't help forming it.
We are working towards undoing a few of these changes. We thought making more specific places would get poeple to discuss these topics more. It seems like most of you want to have everything in one channel (even though then shouting for your own special channels?!). We are sorry to have brought up confusion and will try to apply changes during the next days.
Changes like these are a living thing. They will probably change at some point again as interest shifts.
Cut us some slack. It is not easy to satisfy so many users at once.
And in addition, the last channels that were discussed were also welcomed by other user who would be disappointed if we remove them again. It's not that easy.
jovial raft
@deft raft I haven't read everything here, but I don't get the feeling people on the whole are having a go at you or anyone who was involved in the changes. I wouldn't take offense, it's normal people will more likely have an opinion once changes are effected.
I haven't been around much lately, I just happened to check back in for the first time on the day the changes went live, so I gave some feedback. I definitely don't expect you or anyone to immediately make the changes I suggest. ๐
deft raft
Since we are a few thousand, this doesn't seem count for everyone here :/
digital socket
"Don't call it bad if you didn't help forming it."
That sure narrows the field.
deft raft
I would understand doing that if we simply rushed the categories and channels on the first 5 minutes.
And yes, I also see the constructive critique in all of that, which we will try to implement during the next days, don't get me wrong.
naive marsh
Where the voice chanels Go ?
gritty lotus
away, probably
deft raft
They were barely used. With over 8k members, the usage was.. well, 2 people once in a while?
We figured if you want to voice chat with people, you can easily use your own Servers or the Friend/User calling that Discord added.
With this, the annoying Voice channels that made the channel list even larger, are gone.
sleek warren
I'm happy that voice channels went away, they only cause confusion when you accidentally clicked them and it put you there
it's horrible UX from discords side too
that shouldn't happen (that you get "spied" automatically if you misclick)
btw, totally missed the #graphics discussion here
I agree that it's not a descriptive name for the channels purpose (hope it gets rolled back)
also if people complain, it doesn't always mean they object change, change could actually be truly for the worse too . So I wish mods wouldn't show that card here and try to take critisicm accordingly.
as additional note
I find #career-chat grouping odd, it should be grouped with jobs
or change the jobs group so it fits in better
also own group for #game-jam-chat is also odd one, it just bloats the space and one channel groups is kinda silly
it could be in general discussion group atm
dawn brook
My 2 cents about the channels : i'd much rather have 5 - 10 channels than 50
deft raft
@sleek warren feel free to see me showing that card as a non mod then
Jam chat won't stay alone
sleek warren
it's just, your reply feels like you do not want to accept feedback
deft raft
The additional channels aren't setup yet afaik
sleek warren
"we know better"
deft raft
Never said we know better. Simply disliked the "This is bad" while not participating in any previous discussion about the whole channel thing
dawn brook
In my opinion, new channels are only required when it's not practical to keep only one, because too many people are talking about different stuff at the same time.
Did we need a "multiplayer" channel or an "ai" channel ? Or a "gameplay-abilities-plugin" channel ? These are pretty broad fields that also fall into cpp or Blueprint, and the need for a separate category appears small to me.
Same goes for UMG & Slate - I'm just muting UMG now and I won't answer UMG stuff anymore
#ui wasn't exactly crowded to the point we couldn't talk
vast tusk
yes, multiplayer is a huge channel that is definitely needed
dawn brook
Just voicing my feedback. I think too many channels are unneeded and too focused on a specific topic.
sleek warren
multiplayer is definitely needed
gameplay abilities seems odd
I think nick said it's a test
deft raft
GamePlayAbilities was asked for so much that they pressured us into adding it.
I would still love to remove it
A wiki page and forum thread would add way more for users seeking guidance in that plugin
gritty lotus
a good old fashion bonfire would be more help for said users
I still don't know why that plugin exists
deft raft
So to recap:
- Art -> Graphics
- Plugin, Engine Source, CPP -> CPP
- UE4 News, Server News -> News
- Everything at top that has no category needs one (?)
vast tusk
And general-chat rename
sleek warren
I think plugin and engine source are good, they could be one channel
deft raft
Then people asked for UMG, Slate to go back into a single UI channel.
Should that move under programming or art?
Cause that was a discussion internal. UI for me is programming, for others it was art.
sleek warren
working on engine / plugin code is kinda separate from regular gameplay programming
gritty lotus
UI is UI
deft raft
Yeah okay, then we might want to rename cpp to something less generic though
@gritty lotus A single channel needs no category though (gamejams gets more afaik)
dawn brook
I fail to see any reason for the ui breakup, or why "engine source", "plugins", "cpp" etc wouldn't be just "programming"
And these are those I've been on since Slack
deft raft
Main reason for slate was giving people a home that are seeking guidance there and also getting more people into learning slate
gritty lotus
programming doesn't get a huge amount of traffic, to be fair
deft raft
Renaming UI to UMG-Slate as one channel would work for me, as that still adds to asking slate questions
(instead of just UI)
dawn brook
Same goes for "art" - what about technical graphics question ? That's not exactly art too
deft raft
Art was already listed
dawn brook
Well basically it was all better before, imho
deft raft
Well, tell that to everyone who asked for categories and more channels to be added
Victors list had around 100 channels
no one said something against that
gritty lotus
no one said something for it either :p
deft raft
Based on his statement, the list was based on everyones requirements
aka, people asked for all these channels
dawn brook
Just because people ask for it doesn't mean everyone agrees
worthy ermine
we will just end with 2 people per channel =\
dawn brook
I mean I'm not on any "general talk" thing
deft raft
Yes, but then we are at a point at which we need to do a poll for every channel
And add it when more people want it thant don't
Because if only 5 people are against "Plugin" while 100 are for it, you can't remove it
And given that #server-feedback is mainly used by the same people the last days, I could argue that the rest is fine with the changes (or don't care)
at which point we would actually just forge the server to the liking of like 10 users
Not ideal either
(renaming of channels excluded)
dawn brook
I'm not saying I want you to do what I want, I'm just giving my feedback - this server would work with 10 channels, and the more channels, the less some of us will engage
Maybe i'm an outlier
At this point I have to mute channels just because they don't all fit on my 1440p monitor, that seems very excessive
deft raft
It's all true. My main point is that we are basing most of these changes on the feedback of this channel.
While by far not everyone participates in the discussions.
I'm sure if I remove #gameplay-ability-system and merge #plugin-dev etc, other people come and riot cause they are gone
What then? Then it's a "pro vs con" fight, where we would need to count voices?
If people can't fit channels on their screen, i can't really count that as a con point.
The only real points against channels are that there are only 5 messages per week.
dawn brook
For me it's just a matter of user experience - if you can't see all channels on a 1080p screens, you have too many channels
i'll mute this channel once we're done just to see more on the list
deft raft
Yes, however user-experience goes more and more towards discord as a whole
They did a poor job on this feature imo
vast tusk
Jan brought up a lot of pro less channel reasons. Osmosis being the primary one.
deft raft
Correct. I'm just trying to give the "less channel" people a reason why we don't just delete the ones they don't want
dawn brook
We have 39 channels and we could probably list 20 in a regular screen, I think we need even less than that to have people actually engage and talk, not just about the only thing they work on
gritty lotus
give it a week and see which ones don't have much engagement
deft raft
That was my idea ^
gritty lotus
I'm willing to bet several will have more or less nothing in them
or at least nothing of any value
deft raft
We are willing to change the whole sturcture. The current one is the one we generated based on what we knew from the input we got before creating it
dawn brook
I honestly think 20 should be a hard limit before it becomes a huge mess
deft raft
Now we got a lot more input, cause people suddenly noticed that the prev input was maybe not good(?) and we will adjust everything
You got to remove some channels based on their usage
job board for example should stay
even if it's 22 channels then
vast tusk
Yeah, most people won't give input until they actually have to use the changes. It's like that with everything tho, I see it all the time in the software world. So no surprise there ๐
deft raft
Hence me saying it's like a political voting
"Don't want to vote." "XY won." "WHAT HOW CAN THAT BE?!"
gritty lotus
Blueprint is scripting, really
deft raft
Did I miss something?
open radish
i mean programming is just a part of "logic"
gritty lotus
that statement makes no sense
open radish
so perhaps logic should stand there
vast tusk
We are not going to rename it to logic
deft raft
Only thing that would make sense is "coding"
And no, not gonna happen
It stays programming
gritty lotus
'Technical'
gritty lotus
Audio is generally handled by engineers, yes
open radish
ok
gloomy kiln
@deft raft I had muted #lounge and any "meta" channels, so I didn't notice any discussion about this stuff before. I only noticed it after stuff changed. I was just very happy with how everything was before
I like to only have on-topic ue4 channels visible
deft raft
Fair enough, however it's a bit your fault for not participating in any discussions.
Everyone knew categories would come. Discord itself announced them
We will see if the refactored version is better
gloomy kiln
So to recap:
- Art -> Graphics
- Plugin, Engine Source, CPP -> CPP
- UE4 News, Server News -> News
- Everything at top that has no category needs one (?)
-
Art -> Graphics is the most important one, yeah, because currently you essentially deleted any rendering related channel, it just doesn't exist any more. and that was 50% of #graphics before.
-
Plugin, Engine Source, CPP -> CPP is something where I would also be fine with just waiting and seeing how it develops, if the other channels are actually used, ok, but I and others seem to fear that only #cpp will get any attention
-
UE4 News, Server News -> News yes, there are so few ue4 news and server news, that should really be grouped
@deft raft and what you said, calling the ui channel UMG-Slate I would also like
might be a better name than #ui
deft raft
Okay, we have these changes in our new doc already
gloomy kiln
I actually always used #ui as my "idle channel" that I had opened for idle because there so few stuff was written that I can't even miss anything
and when theres few activity, splitting doesnt make sense
deft raft
I simply split them to get more slate people
So renaming is also fine for me
WIll merge the channel with an existing category
should also add to having less waste of space
gloomy kiln
the categories take a lot of screen space, yeah
gloomy kiln
discord should add an option to make the category names invisible
gloomy kiln
I have muted so many channels now that all channels apart from the news category fit on my screen
deft raft
Just have the fav channels top most
and all would be fine
Everyone can order their fav channels themselves
and we could actually live with all the channels
gloomy kiln
well, theres still the issue that when stuff is split up a lot, things are ignored too easily
deft raft
Well I see it more as "I need help in XY, let me check for a channel."
And not "I need help in plugins, there is only one massive programming channel. People only talk about gameplay stuff, let's ask in general."
gloomy kiln
but more important are the people that constantly monitor channels and give help
and you can't monitor 50 channels
gritty lotus
you need people idling in channels for people to actually be in them to answer
gloomy kiln
yeah
deft raft
But is the diff so big? Would a slate user idle in UI but not in Slate if it's an extra channel?
Would the question get an answer if it's only one channel instead of two?
gritty lotus
probably
deft raft
idk
gritty lotus
I've got something like 20 channels muted at the moment
gloomy kiln
well, lets look at nick (dev), he did read everything in ui, but switching between umg and slate is definitely more work
like stranger said, he would just mute umg now and only look at slate
splitting only really makes sense for channels with so much activity, that its too much work to actually be around there
I'm really not fully sure what I think about the different programming channels, I did like #programming the way it was before, but I also think it would be nice to have two different channels related to cpp, one for more general c++ stuff ("should I write i++ or ++i" or "is tarray or tmap the thing I should use here"), and one for way more deep technical questions ("how is FWhateverGreatStuff related to UMyUnrealThing and which one is more thread safe")
because deep technical discussions where only 1/100 people can help can sometimes too easily be buried in all the small discussion thast happens way more quickly because 80/100 people can contribute
so maybe #engine-source makes sense to have as a channel
jovial raft
Seems most people are arguing for less channels. Just to give an opposing point of view, in my case more specific channels is actually going to encourage me to post more. Because I have limited time, if a channel is too generic/busy, I'm not going to bother scrawling through everything so I'll likely mute it.
With more specific channels, I can pick two or three that interest me, and monitor them more easily.
deft raft
That sounds more like you are for making busy channels less busy
So you are also against having specific channels if the combined channel isn't busy
jovial raft
I don't follow.
I mean sure, no point splitting stuff up if there is already not enough traffic in it as it is.
deft raft
Yeah, that point is already on the table then
It's not really pro more channels. It's pro less traffic in existing ones
rich sky
jeez, lots to read here today
jovial raft
But traffic is just a function of how many users there are, and the number/division of channels, right?
gritty lotus
not necessarily, no
you can't assume that users will divide themselves between channels equally; things like the general channels and BP channel are always going to be pretty loaded
jovial raft
I guess my point is, personally, if I can choose channels more specific to my particular interests, that works. Doesn't really matter how busy they are, I can spend whatever time I have free, and I don't have to filter out a lot of stuff that I'm not interested in.
gritty lotus
niche channels might just remain forever empty, since if there aren't enough people to idle in them, there's no point trying to ask questions in them
rich sky
I posted for days about everyone having a chance to get their opinion on channels and categories
jovial raft
@gritty lotus Sure, that;s what I mean by division, as in, how they're divided up as well as just the number.
But of course, it's impossible to please everyone.
rich sky
^
gritty lotus
it's even harder to please 2000 people, hehe
rich sky
I mean, I like the changes. For the most part I think the biggest issues right now are Channel Names and Channel Descriptions and #more-resources rework
TBH, visual-fx could easily just be the techart side
But programming right now...seems almost perfect
gloomy kiln
@jovial raft you essentially also mean that a channel like #hardcore-cpp with only the really interesting cpp questions would be more interesting than a #cpp channel with all the basic questions, right? and then it would be easier to make sure you read everything in that way less crowded #hardcore-cpp channel
gritty lotus
Tech art is probably a better and more encompassing category than VFX
rich sky
I just wish we had some FAQs
deft raft
so visual-fx -> techart ? That name doesn't really appeal to me
Well, the "hardcore-cpp" thing is probably not gonna happen
rich sky
but... I gotta get you here...
No..that's not true
Only 6-7 devs
IF that
requested that channel
and only those devs ever use it
jovial raft
@gloomy kiln Not sure what the cpp/hardcore-cpp dividing line would be ;)
I was thinking more like I would choose engine-source/editor extensions/ai kind of channels, rather than general programming. Just because, yeah, I have limited time so I'd rather not spend time reading a lot of stuff that I won't contribute to.
rich sky
Let's be real here
gloomy kiln
so if I ask a lot I get my own channel? ๐
rich sky
But still
^
so much to read...holy crap
where was everyone when these channels launched?
gloomy kiln
for me #visual-fx sounds like a channel only for particles
deft raft
That's why we are also not pleasing 2000, but way more people
gloomy kiln
and I think its fine if theres a channel specifically for particle stuff
rich sky
Man.. #plugin-dev better stay. It's already super useful to people
gloomy kiln
and other graphics stuff should be in #graphics
deft raft
Wouldn'T graphics cover techart?
gloomy kiln
yes
deft raft
So we can keep vfx?
gloomy kiln
the #graphics channel worked very well before I think
gritty lotus
Graphics covers everything
deft raft
Not my rent
gritty lotus
hah
gloomy kiln
#graphics covers everything, and if something is worth splitting out it can be splitted out
rich sky
I can't believe someone wants to kill #source-control ... probably one of the MOST ASKED QUESTIONS around here... other than "How do I connect this BP pin to that BP ping:
gloomy kiln
cascade/niagara is pretty big so I think that could be put into its own channel
gritty lotus
some of those BP questions have been really annoying lately
rich sky
I give up, too much to read. People rehashing stuff
deft raft
Well cascade/niagara are particles or vfx
gloomy kiln
yeah
deft raft
So that's covered
gritty lotus
"This thing doesn't work!"
"Did you read the warning at the bottom of the screen?"
"This thing doesn't work!"
"Read. the. warning."
"This thing still doesn't work!
Ragetears.
deft raft
@rich sky I like the Source Control stuff, but then again, I would love to not leave UE4 that much in terms of topics
It seems to get a lot of traffic atm, so we keep it for now
rich sky
You know what, I posted that and almost forgot about nyc
gritty lotus
bad timing
rich sky
aye
gritty lotus
Source control seems like a reasonable section
P4 / Git etc are a nightmare when you actually need help
deft raft
Yeah
rich sky
Especially integrating into ue4
and workflow questions
WHich..I"ve answered a lot already
Since it's opened up
deft raft
So, still to question what to do with the 3 cpp channels
Plugins are kinda covering engine and gameplay
Plugins don't only extend the editor
gritty lotus
fold plugins into something else, seems oddly specific
rich sky
Merge Engine-Source and Plugins then
wintry laurel
Those 2 I want to see merged too
deft raft
wintry laurel
engine-code i'd say
rich sky
engine-plugins... nah
deft raft
Well the gamply ability thing is in discussion
gritty lotus
engine / editor
deft raft
Ignore the fourth line in that picture
rich sky
all three of them
gloomy kiln
I like engine-and-plugins
gritty lotus
engine / editor covers things like modifying the editor, editor extensions etc
deft raft
I like it too, It says what that channels covers
rich sky
You can talk about engine specific plugins, plugin creation, and engine source stuff
Ue4 c++ definitely needs to stay it's own channel and should be used mainly for logic
And the description needs to be just as good
pliant halo
This is kinda a long shot, but gave me the idea of having channels like "Modelling, Texturing, Uving" Just for general workflow talk and help, i know its a bit far fetched from ue4, but they are making a modelling toolkit for it.
gritty lotus
plugins themselves would fit into either cpp or engine / editor depending on what they actually do
gloomy kiln
though I think engine-and-plugins might end up focused too much on plugins, and then the people with deep knowledge about engine source stuff will ignore it again...
deft raft
So basically changing engine + plugins vs extending engine (not touching source) via cpp
That's what the two channels would be about
rich sky
There's no doubt the focus will be about plugins
I think extending the editor/plugins is a huge topic
and a lot of folks have questions, need help understanding, etc
deft raft
You are asking too much for "hardcore" cpp
rich sky
heh
deft raft
We won't make hardcore channels
gloomy kiln
#engine-source is currently such a "hardcore" channel
deft raft
Yes, but you want to strip plugins from the name
gloomy kiln
I didnt say that
deft raft
Well, you are fearing it pushes away deep engine knowledge people
pliant halo
Thoughts on having a channel set like Modelling, Uving, maybe texturing? just generalist channels not focused on certian applications, but Workflow practice and general questions and whats good for what etc
gloomy kiln
not the name, just the fact that they are grouped into 1 channel that should cover both even though its kinda different stuff
pliant halo
maybe its just me that thinks art is super broad term
gloomy kiln
@pliant halo that was part of #graphics before
pliant halo
I remember, to me i feel like the three of them are totally different things if u get me
gloomy kiln
what 3?
pliant halo
Modelling, Uving, Texturing
gloomy kiln
so you want to have 1 channel for each?
pliant halo
maybe instead of just Art? but idk if it would catch on
But one of the things i find super lacking is information on Modelling and Uving
Just in general not this discord
deft raft
Then we get more channels again
gloomy kiln
that wouldnt really be specific to ue4 any more
deft raft
:D Maybe some of you see the mods problem
pliant halo
might be a bad idea, was just a thought
deft raft
"Less channels, but gimme more specific ones!"
gloomy kiln
its just a bad idea
pliant halo
Since we are getting a modelling tool kit soon
jovial raft
@deft raft Seems to be there is a lot of msunderstanding, or anyway differing opinions, of what the terms engine-source/plugins actually mean. So I think naming is not really so important. But I'd agree that 2 cpp channels is probably sufficient, one for general game programming in cpp, another for more low level engine/editor/plugin stuff.
deft raft
Yus, that's what I kinda said last time
So basically changing engine + plugins vs extending engine (not touching source) via cpp
Maybe wrongly worded
gloomy kiln
@gritty lotus #not-gameplay-cpp is a bad name though
deft raft
I mean what Luke said
gritty lotus
I don't mean actually call it that
gloomy kiln
I like the idea to split it between gameplay cpp and non gameplay cpp, but you need to find a nice name
deft raft
Hm
gritty lotus
engine is okayish
gritty lotus
aye
deft raft
Question now is, does gameplay and engine cover all topics
celest zenith
what is #source-control idea?
gloomy kiln
@deft raft does it have to be cpp, does c++ not work for channel name?
deft raft
รhm, no idea, didn't think about it
gloomy kiln
#c++engine and #c++gameplay looks better I think
celest zenith
so #source-control channel contain more than programming?
jovial raft
deft raft
@celest zenith Source Control has nothing to do with programming itself
It's mainly a discussion thread
The channel it is
rich sky
@celest zenith has nothing to do with programming
deft raft
the thing itself obviously has to do with programming
rich sky
It's literally all about using Source Control for UE4 Projects
celest zenith
@rich sky I lockerize it as programining where the programming assets are
gloomy kiln
source control also makes sense with a bp project
though, #blueprint is in the programming category, so I guess doesnt matter
pliant halo
sounce control makes sense with everything imo
jovial raft
version-control would probably be better, source control implies code, git, etc. version-control is more generic.
celest zenith
yeah true
deft raft
version-control hm
Will add it to the list
Also
Since the category title is "DISCUSSIONS" (well currently it's still GENERAL DISCUSSION), we are still thinking about the general channel
We want to make sure it's not mistaken for lounge
gloomy kiln
@deft raft #general-ue4
deft raft
I wanted to simply rename it to ue4
gritty lotus
General vs Offtopic
deft raft
Renaming Lounge to Offtopic was an idea, but people know lounge by now
gloomy kiln
I think #general-ue4 sounds very much like what it should be
rich sky
doesn't matter
anyone who actually uses #lounge
will conitnue to use it as #offtopic
If not, no one cares
rich sky
because it's OT
celest zenith
#ue4 or #general-ue4
gritty lotus
people in here don't even know what 'game design' is for, let alone 'lounge' or 'general'...
gloomy kiln
#general-ue4 makes it clear that its not offtopic
deft raft
the "general" term in it is what bugs me
rich sky
Yeah please delete #design-chat . I mean, I was one of the advocates for getting that channel out
gritty lotus
Admiral.
gloomy kiln
all general ue4 questions that don't belong anywhere else, whats the issue?
rich sky
But, it's not being used correctly anymore
gritty lotus
it's 75% bot spam and 24% people not actually knowing what 'game design' is
rich sky
spam
deft raft
Alright, dead af
rich sky
you can kill it now
and no one would notice
or care
And I would have been the one who would have noticed or cared the most
other than @gritty lotus
gritty lotus
pretty much, heh
rich sky
๐
deft raft
Not rushing anything
gloomy kiln
#ue4-general definitely sounds more like offtopic than #general-ue4
rich sky
#unreal-general
gloomy kiln
even #general was better than #ue4-general I think
rich sky
#ue4-general
gloomy kiln
that this is a chat is pretty clear
rich sky
#general-unreal