pzwiki_editing

[worldly remnant]

i have no idea which specific version had NPCs hahahah

in fact that'd be a great addition to the article

the range of versions that npcs were around in

[languid kayak]

I wanted to touch the NPCs too, as we currently have everything redirected to the NPC (legacy) page, including [[NPC]] and [[Survivors]], only [[Animals]] is a separate page, as it was confusing players 😩.

Currently there are "NPCs" (zombies), legacy NPC code you mention, and new NPC code that Animals will start to use. I'll maybe take a look during week if time permits though

@digital helm Do you remember where this icon comes from? https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:Moodle_Icon_CantSprint.png I can't find it in game, same as I can't find https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:Moodle_Icon_Windchill.png for whatever reason, but tjhe Windchill one at least doesn't have a background 😛

Were they removed?

Yeah, I want to have it backgroundless, though I'm surprised I couldn't find it in the game files

[digital helm]

They were used in early build 41 versions. I think cantsprint popped up when you... couldn't sprint... But it was very annoying, so got removed?
Windchill was the same, but not annoying IMO. I didn't even realise it got removed.

[flat sun]

i'm sure windchill is still ingame

cantsprint is still used, though since clothing speed modifiers are disabled it's difficult to trigger

you can trigger it by trying to sprint without shoes though

[languid kayak]

Yeah, I think they are in game still, just couldn't find the icon in the game files for whatever reason 🤔

[digital helm]

Oh, I misread. Yeah the windchill one is in the UI folder, not the texturepack. I don't think they have a non-background version.

[languid kayak]

oh indeed! I never thought of looking for them there 😛

And it's indeed weird the CantSpring one only exist in the background version, unlike other moodles. Make sense gameplay-wise, but doesn't fit with the other that just are combined with the colored background

I'll compress and upload the compressed versions probably tomorrow then

And we could add the CantSprint one to the moodle page too

[languid kayak]

You can download the free demo here: https://www.moddb.com/games/project-zomboid/downloads/project-zomboid-tech-demo-014c but I believe it only have Kate and other minor NPCs. For the Steam builds, you can download old versions https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/611h5e/guide_how_to_download_older_versions_of_a_game_on/ but the intermediate desura ones are largely gone I believe

[restive adder]

If you can hexedit or somehow alter the desura ones to point the test at project zomboid.com I might be able to get it working. Alternatively hack it to break the check, it’s just an if if you can comment it out it’d run with old version of Java. But.. really difficult probably

[languid kayak]

Not sure when NPCs got removed, but oldest on Steam seems to be https://pzwiki.net/wiki/RC_2.9.9 and NPCs were last mentioned in https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Patch_0.2.0r_RC2.5 and first in https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Patch_0.1.5a and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Patch_0.1.5b

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Version_history

Speaking of which, I found the source of https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:Bowl-old.png 😄

[restive adder]

I’ll ask tomorrow if we can officially green light hacking/reverse engineering the old versions

[languid kayak]

I added it to the wiki now under https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Moodles#Restricted_Movement 🙂

[hoary python]

AI upscaling of the lower res icons would be dope af

[languid kayak]

Can be done, there is even #1033869162751213668 channel here but I like the pixelized look more 😄 https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:Faalagorn/120_px_test

Plus we have models for better quality, these are just the inventory icons

and yeah, uploading anything for discord is the same as mediawiki by default; pixelized or not it looks awful 😛

[hoary python]

💘

[languid kayak]

These are posted in https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Bowl#Trivia now and will most likely only stay there 🙂

Though I wonder what other icons changed, so far I am aware of

• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Bowl#Trivia (the icon is from 0.1.4c tech demo, https://www.moddb.com/games/project-zomboid/downloads/project-zomboid-tech-demo-014c but not sure to which point it was used
• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Avocado#Trivia (not sure why was it changed)
• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/First_Aid_Kit#Trivia (to avoid possible red cross copyrights)
• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Ham_Slice#Trivia (not sure why it was changed, really)
• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Car_Battery_Charger#Trivia (quick placeholder)
• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Bucket#Trivia (one of the latest changes)

Not sure if I missed anything else?

[digital helm]

watering can and shovel are 2 more I can think of off the top of my head.

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:TZ_WateringCan.png
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:WateringCan.png
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:TZ_Shovel.png
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:Shovel.png
(links instead... icons look awful in discord)

[languid kayak]

Right, might include them, but isn't the green WaterinCan still in use? The Thuztor icons are always blurry sadly 😦

Not sure about the Shovel?

According to https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Item_List farming.WateredCan is the green one and farming.WateredCanFull is the silver one?

[digital helm]

You're right. It did get changed, but changed back? Not sure why

        Icon                =        TZ_WateringCan,```
```    item WateredCanFull
        /*Icon                =        WateringCan,*/
        Icon                =        TZ_WateringCan,```

[languid kayak]

Icon = TZ_WateringCan,
Icon = WateringCan,

yeah 😄

Next patch maybe?

[digital helm]

So filling it up changes the watering can 👍

[languid kayak]

no wait

[languid kayak]

if what you posted is correct, only green one is used

I guess it's because of the model, the WateringCan is commented. And I remember that's how it behaves in the game.

oh nvm, model's silver

[digital helm]

Yeah... it's commented. Script must ignore it, and just use the first "Icon"

[languid kayak]

Then I don't know why the Thuztor one is still used 🤔

I don't remember the model which was actually shown, I guess the proper one. For watering with empty paint cans, however, no model is shown at all 😄

[digital helm]

Must've been commented "recently" 41.66 it used both icons. https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Watering_Can#Code

[languid kayak]

And there are two models being used, e.g., for this: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Water_Bottle#Gallery

(at least I think they are, I'd have to test it in game)

[digital helm]

Yeah, orange soda used to have 2 as well. But got changed to the worlditem one.

[digital helm]

I think... Could be remembering wrong

[languid kayak]

I always though that when all items would have a model, each item would be visible when held in hands eventually, course it'd need some extra anims, but would be nice to see it, even if it'd disappear when not idle.

[digital helm]

That was probably the original plan, but things change and get forgotten, then people move onto other things

[restive adder]

Checked, it’s fine to hack the very old versions to remove desura checks. Might be able to decompile and recompile them?

[languid kayak]

This might help you #pzwiki_editing message

But as far as downloading from Desura, someone would need to have it backed up 😩. I bought PZ on Desura, but Desura is long gone when it comes to hosting files

I might have the website iwth the download link becked up, which might give the executable name, I'll take a look

[restive adder]

One of the devs has found a way to bypass the login requirement. Asked if he can upload that for us to share

[stable pond]

I know 0.2.0q is working, was playing it myself a year or so ago and posting pics in this discord

no npc in that one though, not sure which revision has them

are you looking for npcs specifically? what are we achieving with this

ah updating wiki on older revisions?

nice gotcha

huh apparently 0.2.0r had npcs

thats the newer desura dialog yea

yea it didn't even need bypassing iirc

[digital helm]

I don't come up with the naming scheme. Versions were referred to as RC for about a year, before being released on Steam.

[languid kayak]

Yeah, the naming scheme was convoluted back then 😩. And I think the table was done before Vaileasys touched it too?

Or at least the version numbers lol

[stiff granite]

This recent article seems to be 99% speculation https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Raleigh_Outbreak

[restive adder]

That’s definitely source needed if I’ve seen one

[stiff granite]

I found a couple more sources about the Raleigh Outbreak (WLBN TV and NNR Radio both have interviewees mention it at some point), but none about it being a "flesh-eating" disease, or even any mention of symptoms at all. Since the VHS cited doesn't mention the disease by name, nor any other identifying factor, we don't know if it's about that specific outbreak

Oh, wait. It mentions the "Triangle Area". Google points me to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Triangle

[worldly remnant]

wow this is all incredible, thanks everyone!!! :D

[restive adder]

Devs didn’t really decide on a versioning scheme till the builds count started. The crack might not be enough there’s some sneaky checksum stuff that can wreck saves.

Devs;

Dump into /zomboid/keys, iirc.

[gloomy glen]

hi, I was translating the farming entry but I'm at lost with the tables (the planting seeds one for example, pzwiki.net/wiki/Farming#Step_4:_planting_crops) as the info is redacted "{{Crafting farming|101|ing=1}}". I would appreciate the help!

OOHHH, crap I completely ignored that. Thank you!! Sorry for the inconvenience!

[languid kayak]

when editing pages, the things between {{ and }] are templates, these should be listed below the editing field as Templates used on this page:

Not sure it's explained there, but https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents can help too!

[gloomy glen]

thanks!!

[uncut niche]

Yo!
Just a little thing I realised :
The wiki seems outdated about granted skills for "exposure survival" VHS.
The EP2 grants fishing experience and not farming one.

[digital helm]

Thanks! I've been looking through the VHS tapes the last couple of days, so will update. Unless you'd like to 🙂

[uncut niche]

I'm sorry I never done that before. ^^
But why not a bit to see if I can help better.

[digital helm]

Looks like that was my mistake. I tidied the page up a little yesterday, and accidentally did that. Fixed now. Thanks!

[grim finch]

is it a problem if i send a half translated page?

If i want to finish it later

[digital helm]

Not a problem. Best to add {{Translate}} at the top, so it gets added to a translation needed category. In case you don't finish it, someone else can.

[grim finch]

K

[robust loom]

Was just goign through the wiki, this may need updating lol

[languid kayak]

Seems not right indeed; aren't the maps available straight from the beginning? Not sure if they can be spawned

[robust loom]

They definitely are, I'm definitely not even haflway through a month and got at least a dozen of them

[languid kayak]

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Pistol/pl and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Pistol/ru will probably need some cleanup, as the English and French page leads to disambiguation 👀

[digital helm]

Moved them to M9 Pistol subpages https://pzwiki.net/wiki/M9_Pistol/ru and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/M9_Pistol/pl
They're outdated now. Haven't been updated since pre-build 41

[languid kayak]

Maybe not for this weekend, but I'll probably want to take look and take a look and then update/add stuff at the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents including https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Style_guide – add a proper guide for translations including how to translate the main page and regular pages. Probably gonna include https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Things_to_do into it and update https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Issues

If anyone feels something's missing (other than the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Links and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Tables, is wrong, or should be changed, let me know!

Nah, it's not 2000 anymore, just use https://www.deepl.com/translator and everything will be top notch 👌

[restive adder]

Might be worth a ‘this page auto translated from English, translation errors possible’ template and warning ⚠️ at the top of the pages do that on?

[languid kayak]

Was more of a joke 😛 Probably not gonna implement that seriously at any point 🙂

These tools are great, even if you are native speaker, as they usually throw up pretty cohesive sentences, especially DeepL, but have to be double checked for nonsences

[restive adder]

Might be worth doing for the rules / help / editing guideline pages ? People can correct if they wanna, covers the basics

Could ask in #translations if anyone can help with the warning messages?

[restive adder]

It might be worth linking to links on the internet archive for, just to make sure it’s been copied and no dead links if twitter goes phooey. Well, any more phooey https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Knox_Event

[digital helm]

added to the list https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Translations#Job_board

[digital helm]

Will look at doing this once it's over. And maybe have a dedicated page somewhere on the wiki with the transcripts?

[digital helm]

where?

The game is set in Knox Country. A fictional location

area

"Knox Country was previously called Knox County, which was renamed in 2013 after the original map was scrapped and remade."
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Knox_Country

That was the problem the devs had. They thought Fort Knox was in Knox County. But kept the name similar

2011 the first demo was available

And has confused people ever since

[kind kestrel]

Hey guys, i got some info about frozen and chilled food that i dont see on wiki, how exactly i can add it?

i might just leave it here: 1) frozen food multiplier is 50. 2)chilled food multiplier is 5.

[digital helm]

Hey! That'd be very helpful. Would be best suited here https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Food#Perishable
Feel free to add it, otherwise I'll add it when I can.

We may also want to add it to https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Infobox_food the same way as capacity is on https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Infobox_container

[kind kestrel]

should i add info to perishable or create new category like "food-saving" under it or uhhh.....

[languid kayak]

on Wikipedia, that generally only happens if the link is actually dead – though if you fear of site going down, you can force making a backup but not on the internet archive

[kind kestrel]

did what i could, looks decent

[languid kayak]

Yeah, looks good for now 🙂 We briefly discussed adding the values to the infobox in here: #pzwiki_editing message

[kind kestrel]

i simply do not understand what those words mean

oh i see the logic, but how can i put there not an entity...

[languid kayak]

Nah, it's some technical work to automatically include it in the infobox, but something doable eventually 🙂

e.g. how https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Big_Hiking_Bag lists Capacity as 22 but 28 with Organized trait

[restive adder]

Can someone help this person https://www.reddit.com/r/projectzomboid/comments/151k6y4/project_zomboid_wiki_page_editing/

[digital helm]

on it now

[digital helm]

@languid kayak did I miss anything? (or stuff anything) https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page/tr

[languid kayak]

looks fine, I'll just have to compare and update the crafting ones, since it's copied from Czech 😄

Výroba

Obecné • Přežívání • Tesařství • Vaření • Elektrikářství • Zdraví • Obrábění kovů • Farmaření • Rybaření • Odchyt zvěře

I was thinking of having an English copies somewhere without any translations so it'd be easier for the next time 😛

[digital helm]

woops, fixed 🙂

[restive adder]

Thanks!

[drowsy nexus]

Gonna update Mechanics/es (https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Mechanics/es) since the original english one was updated

minor spelling mistake

[reef musk]

Hello!I saw that the romanian language in this game is bad,and I would be happy to help translate

the game

thankss

[thick orchid]

hello mates, I am a person who is passionate about PZ, so I would like to contribute with the translation of the wiki into Spanish.

[tulip kiln]

Sweet, if you need help with working the wiki, Vaileasys, Faalagorn and Kirrus seem to know the most about that stuff in this channel

[languid kayak]

Hey! You can just translate the pages as you fit by creating a new article adding /es to the end of the URL or improving existing ones in https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Es – take look exactly at https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Translation_needed/es, you can improve existing pages, e.g. the main page ones.

I am also planning to create the advanced guide for translation, see https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Translations for details; for now you have https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Language_policy and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Style_guide#Translations

BTW, I dont' get this edit; what is the [sic] for in here? https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=VHS&curid=15829&diff=124365&oldid=120309 - seems somthing lore related I'm missing?

yeah, I know sic meaning, but yeah, I didn't catch the "say" part, thanks 😄

[thick orchid]

okay

[restive adder]

I reported the typo to the writers, should be fixed in 42 all going well

[languid kayak]

Gladly it rarely happens, so no need for it yet, but if there's be more, Wikpedia have a template for it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Sic

[languid kayak]

Saw your edit of controls @digital helm; I wonder if https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Map should be split into two pages, one as a game feature and another as an item 🤔

[digital helm]

I thought the same. Something like "Map (item)"

[restive adder]

Lemmy posted on reddit, looks like https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Jack_Bloggs isn't from a supermarket char, wasn't added to the game when story development ceased; https://www.reddit.com/r/projectzomboid/comments/154wwmb/just_wanted_share_these_official_pz_character_npc/jsrxqee/

[languid kayak]

Seems it was you @digital helm who added this 😄 Thanks for heads up! Gonna fix that later today or tomorrow with the link given as a source 🙂

[digital helm]

No idea where I would've gotten it from (why sources are important). Probably some back alley. I remember everything from that page though was taken from the NPC page or 'Til Death Do Us Part.

[languid kayak]

I slapped a notice on the top so we won't forget; can't force myself to wrap my head around it now

I should probably get to playing the old build to actually verify all the legacy stuff

I have so faint memory of what version I played; skipping most and returning to the game much later. I played some version on Desura briefly probably (and the tech demo before that) and went back some time before RJ added the evolved food or so?

[digital helm]

Wouldn't have a clue what version I played, I remember watching Paulsoaresjr play, I think the tech demo? Felt like that was long before I got the game.

[digital helm]

I've added some of the phases of the category rollout to the job board https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Navigation_and_Categories
Almost done with Modding.

Here's the current category tree

I'm not sure what to do with this. Whether to call it environment or something else.
This would be where pages like "Weather" and "Erosion" will be. Should it be called something else, then have a separate category for "NPCs"?

[languid kayak]

World? Game world? We already have The game world page I believe?

[digital helm]

That should work.

[languid kayak]

I see you took care of some of the Russian categories Vaileasys, nice! I might not be as active this weekend to do much work on wiki as I originally thought, but the categorization project is going strong 💪. I am around if you guys need anything, though!

[languid kayak]

What belongs to "Environment"? Things like Weather, Erosion, Noise?

Also I see you took "AI" with Animals and Survivors in it; so "NPC"? Where Zombies belong then? And Metagame? (AI might believe me it's to be controlled with things like herd moving and stuff)

[digital helm]

Along with what you said, I was also thinking environmental tiles like trees, grass, etc. could go in there as a secondary category (so as well as Tiles).
E.g. the header for a grass tile would be Header|Main|Project Zomboid|Tiles|Floor tiles, then have Category:Environment too

I've noticed a lot of this becomes clearer when you're actually implementing it. Very confusing atm

[digital helm]

AI, NPC, either, I don't mind either way. I just thought NPC might make you think of survivor NPCs.

[languid kayak]

in pages yes, in categories less so 😄

BTW: https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Category:Po - any idea how to remove those two pages from there? Should be in Pl

[digital helm]

That was weird. Nothing would work except 'fake' edit. Edit the page and save with no changes.

[languid kayak]

Well, good it worked though 😄

[digital helm]

I've improved the translation functionality of some notice boxes. So the same template can be used without needing to include the language code. It'll automatically get the translation, so long as there is one, else it will default to English.

E.g. Use {{Outdated}} instead of {{Outdated/es}}

See the template page for a translation guide. Step 2 might be confusing, so if you're having trouble let me know which language you want to add.

So far I've only added it to these ones, but I'll add it to the rest eventually:
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Outdated
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Improve
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Underconstruction
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Translate

[languid kayak]

FYI, since we are slowly are starting to get enough contribution to start utilizing patrolled edits; I guess I'll start doing so 🙂

While it might sounds scrary, this has no effect whatsoever except the sanity of the admins, but if you guys want to know more what patrolling on Wiki is, this https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Patrolling 🙂

It won't affect the edits being delayed or anything; I'll write about that in the next-week wiki news post

nah, Wikipedia's stricted

definitely not 😄

It's just a flag that will allow me to find the edits I didn't take a look at, since me and Vaileasys did a lot recently, even when filtering bots it's still a lot of edits from the newcomers (which is good :P)

If time permits, I might do some cleanups to help and style pages to reflect all the new styling, category and etc. changes that accumulated over time, so folks hopefully can contribute more in-line to what we have. I originally planned to do that this week, but probably gonna delay it to the next week or a week after or so.

Especially since Vaileasys is still busy with the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Navigation_and_Categories and I was (less, but still) busy with https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Translations cleanups recently 😄

BTW, can someone take a look at https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Traits&curid=851&diff=132437&oldid=132387 and https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Moodles&curid=322&diff=132751&oldid=121207 – first one is a name change I'd have to check if is accurate and the second one is about the moodle we talked a while before here: #pzwiki_editing message

[languid kayak]

okay, I clarified this edit based on this, correct me if I'm wrong 🙂 https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Moodles&type=revision&diff=132967&oldid=132751

[languid kayak]

took a while to simply log in and check, but it's "Car Wreck" so the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Car_Wreck will stay 👌

[opal vault]

quick question, i have a resource related to modding. What's the process to get stuff up there?

[stiff granite]

Does anyone know if this accidental censoring is in the actual game, or only in the wiki?

[restive adder]

Wiki, anti spam filter is annoying, but also annoyingly effective

[white wolf]

hello! 👋
i'm a native Dutch (Nederlands) speaker and i just created an account on the wiki(*) to perhaps help translate. i have very little experience with editing wiki's though and while i'm a quick study and eager to learn, i need some help getting started. i joined the Discord looking for a helping hand with that.

(*) https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:SuperLisa

thanks! i think my needs are at the 'medium' level, since it appears that most of the Dutch pages are non-existent lol

the thing that confuses me is how/where to edit templates. i saw the page explaining it and it said to make sure you're on the right page (and not the explaining page), but that's where i get confused.

i'm actually not quite sure, but i think it makes a lot of sense to start with editing the translation one and add the Dutch words for things? an example would be: if i make a new page for 'locations' and use the english version as my guide, the words 'main article' aren't automatically translated in the resulting text from this: {{Main|Knox Country}}

[digital helm]

Hi! Those guides were just written yesterday, so may still need some fiddling with. #pzwiki_editing message

[digital helm]

And the Main one I did less than an hour ago 😛

[white wolf]

haha nice! i think if you could point me to specific pages, it might be a good starting point for me to start adding translated words and phrases. i'll just start there and work my way towards learning how to do more elaborate stuff.

[digital helm]

As you said, I think best to start with Translate, if it's templates you want to translate.
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Translate#Supported_languages

The text to translate is under "English text". so:
<span style="font-size:120%;">This article/section needs to be '''translated'''.</span><br>Editors are encouraged to translate this page to the best of their ability.
Then click the red link for the language on the "supported languages" table (see above link) then add the translations, ignoring everything inside angle brackets <>

If you'd rather, you can paste the translations here, and we can add it.

If you're having trouble with step 2 on the "translation guide", just ping me with the template you want to translate, and I can add it

I may add something so you don't need to do step 2 in the future

[white wolf]

when i follow those instructions i get an empty page, would that be correct?
URL: https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Translate/nl&action=edit&redlink=1

[digital helm]

yeah, that's right. The page hasn't been created yet.

If you add <noinclude>{{Translate}}</noinclude> after the text, you can click show preview to see the result.

[white wolf]

oh so with that red link i'd be creating a Dutch version of the Translate Template, right? so basically take what's there on the page you linked and create a Dutch version of it?

[digital helm]

There's a couple. Mostly the main page though. But would help with adding more placeholders
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Translation_needed/nl

[digital helm]

exactly

[digital helm]

I need to run, so I've done step 2 for you, for Translate. So you just need to add the Dutch version to that page you're creating.

[white wolf]

i'll try my best! when you're back you can check and let me know if i did it as you intended. thanks for being patient, i'm glad you're allowing me a bit of a learning curve.

[digital helm]

No problem! @languid kayak has been looking after most of the translation stuff, so they might be able to help too if you need anything

[white wolf]

i just saved the page and it doesn't contain any information, unlike the spanish version, so i guess i do need to learn a bit more still. to be continued! thanks again for teaching.

[digital helm]

just need to include this <span style="font-size:120%;">Dit artikel/onderdeel moet '''vertaald''' worden.</span><br>Editors worden aangemoedigd om deze pagina zo goed mogelijk te vertalen.
Everything else can be deleted. Then add <noinclude>{{Translate}}</noinclude> to test it, then save

[white wolf]

huzzah!

[white wolf]

i've found the list of pages that require a translation (https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Translation_needed/nl), which is basically what i was asking for. very helpful and i've made a modest start. if that list gets updated regularly, i can try to keep on top of translating pages as they get added.

i think that i should be removing the <noinclude>{{Languages}}{{Translate}}[[Category:Main Page]]</noinclude> part of those pages to remove them from that list, but since i'm not entirely sure i'll leave it for now until i get confirmation that i should. i don't want anything to 'get lost' due to my ignorance. 😅

Edit: I think I got all of them, aside from the Template:MainPage News/nl page, for which I created a talk page to discuss what to translate, and the Template:Translation/nl page that I currently don't have the brain space for. I've added the Category:Translation needed/nl page to my watchlist (and added that to my RSS feed), but feel free to ping me here if the list with pages has been updated.

[languid kayak]

Hey, I'm a little tired today, but take a look at https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page/nl and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Translation_needed/nl

[languid kayak]

Only pages someone started translating are there though, feel free to click red links on the main nl page too 🙂

[digital helm]

Anything with {{Translate}} and /nl subpage will be added to that list.
You can translate any existing english page by adding /nl to the URL. All /nl pages are here https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Nl

[languid kayak]

Hey @stable pond (hopefully pinging the right person :D), do you mind me removing those three pages? Seems they are incorporated to the main namespace now and I clean up some images and previously templates, saves hassle updating them on those pages 😛
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:RIDAI/craftingtest
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:RIDAI/foraging
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:RIDAI/testtraits

[languid kayak]

Gotta test it, but is the spear mentioned here: https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Crafted_Spear&curid=5614&diff=135025&oldid=121673 the one from here? https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Build_41_Update/Job_board#Weapons

If so, I guess two separate pages should be made, as these technically two different items?

[stable pond]

yeah they're just test pages, can't remove them myself, feel free to do so

I'll just use my own profile page directly next time

[languid kayak]

nah, using test pages is fine 😄 See https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:Vaileasys's page for that, they just need some cleanups from time and yeah, only admins can delete pages (which is kinda limitation of MediaWiki not allowing to do so from the user pages sadly)

[stable pond]

yea, there's a plugin that simply allows users to delete only their own space pages, but a bit unnecessary tbh, using the main user page is fine, I had just assumed mediawiki let users delete their own pages when I made them (oops) 😆

[swift warren]

hello, is anyone online? I saw the wiki lacks many zh-cn language translation pages so I try to create a new page but received a message that my registration/post has been detected as spam. what should I do to resolve this issue? (I'm Chinese, sorry for poor english)

[digital helm]

Hello! what was the error message? May have been a word that triggered the spam filter.

[digital helm]

Yeah, that's right (unless it's changed since I added it, build 41.51?) From memory, Base.SpearCrafted could be crafted into the spear variants, whereas Base.WoodenLance was only obtainable by finding it in stashes. Of course though, that may have changed now. Will have to look it up.
Also, Base.WoodenLance was the pre-build 41 spear.

[swift warren]

I sent a mail to kirrus and he resolved it, thx!

[languid kayak]

Feel free to take a look at https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Translation_needed/zh-cn - main page needs updates too, some parts are translated, but I added a lot of links

[swift warren]

I translated page titled with template:translate_template_notice and then I found it may no need to be translated as it'll only be added in English page. How can I delete this page or only admin can operate?

[digital helm]

Only admins can. But I don't see any harm in having it.

Thank you for translating all those templates and pages too!

[swift warren]

You are welcome! I'm glad to see the wiki known in Chinese players

[digital helm]

Something we do need in Chinese, if you'd like to translate, is content on Template:Translation which is currently empty. Here's some empty cases which'll go inside the switch statement. https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Translation/zh-cn

I see you've already translated the documentation

[swift warren]

well, I translated that doc but I have no idea how to add the entries as there seems don't have a example, could you tell me how?

[digital helm]

Everything in that txt file needs go in the yellow on this Translation template. The English word is before the = and translated terms is after. This is used on several tempaltes like Template:T
For example,
| Langauge =
Is used for the language bar at the top of the page.

[swift warren]

sorry, what does Language(local) mean?

[digital helm]

How a language name is spelt in its local language.
It's used on this table https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Languages/Table#Example

E.g. Spanish -> Español

(not sure on the terminology for that)

[swift warren]

ok, I see, thx.

[swift warren]

@digital helm when I'm translating pages, I found the words like 'Usage', 'Parameters', 'See also' are commonly used. Shall we need to add them to the translation page?

[digital helm]

Yeah, I think that'd be helpful. Any of these article sections too https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Style_guide#Article_sections

It's not something we currently use, but it would be good to start. E.g. =={{Translation|Usage}}==

[swift warren]

fine. May I know what process are we working on?

[languid kayak]

Process? You mean what is currently being worked on Wiki in general? If so, take a look at https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Community_projects

[swift warren]

I just read this project. It seems that there are few Chinese translators in your group. I'll try to work on translating more Chinese pages.

[languid kayak]

I don't think there's someone actively translating wiki into chinese right now, but there were few people coming and going, contributing here and there 🙂

[swift warren]

I found that this wiki has been established for a long time, but it seems that the wiki is not very complete, which is kind of weird.

I browsed mediawiki.org and found it has a friendlier translating method like the image below:
How can we translate wiki like this, too?

[languid kayak]

Yes, sadly. Wiki's there from 2011 but it was always not many editors doing the actual work, but we're catching up. We're currently busy with Vaileasys to organizing stuff (categorization, style guide, translation guide) and infoboxes before moving to the actual content, so hopefully it'll be easier for folks to contrbute – you can always contribute to English part too, I'm watching the recent changes (so will correct if needed). There's also a monthly summary being written here https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:News with the new one coming this weekend if you want to see where's work at 🙂

Keep an eye on https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Community_projects too

The first adding actual content to finish is https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Build_41_Update which hopefully closes before next update so at least everything that's already there will be up-to-date 🙂

[languid kayak]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think @digital helm had something like that in mind, though keep in mind it will differ what FANDOM, MediaWiki or other wikis use still, since this wiki is self-hosted by The Indie Stone (hence no adverts, unlike FANDOM!) and uses different approach to translation than these (normally each wiki is separate databases, in case of PZwiki it's all in one database and changing from that would add a lot of extra work)

[swift warren]

I'd like to contribute to this wiki's construction, but editing on the browser without code syntax highlight and intellisense like other languages bothers me a lot. Are you admins edit on browser, too? or you have a better local editor?

By the way, I have some programming experience (as a college student), so I prefer edit backend pages like templates rather than articles because I'm not so good at writing long chunks.

[digital helm]

Mediawiki uses the Translate extension https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate
While this would be a 'nice to have' it hasn't been very high on the list of things to look into. PZwiki is similar to Mediawiki in the way we do translations, in that translated pages are a subpage of the English page.

Until build 41, the wiki has had very few editors, making it hard to get things setup, organised and up-to-date, so things have moved slowly. We're currently focusing on organising the wiki (most non-English pages weren't subpages until recently) and improving the whole translating process/being multilingual.
If you'd like to look at templates, we'd appreciate the help. If there's anything that you think would help with translating, that'd be the first place I'd point you.
Any major changes though, just let Faalagorn or I know.

[digital helm]

Feel free to look into the existing templates to see if there's anything you'd improve. Many of them are either old, or quickly put together to get them out the door.

[digital helm]

I just use the browser, I think Faalagorn does too. I've used a plugin for sublime before, but struggled to get it working again recently. But I'm used to and happy to use the browser.

[swift warren]

All right, I just tried edit it on vscode with mediawiki extension but it's too old to work fine for me. I'm trying update it to make it works like markdown extension which has a preview page beside coding area. I'm new writing mediawiki so I'm asking for your opinions on it(maybe off topic).

In translating process, I think keeping a congruous style on each page and just leave necessary phrases/words to translators like the image I posted before so that translators don't have to re-edit the entire page may be a better solution.

[swift warren]

it may require drastic changes to the basic content of this wiki, so it's not what needs to be implemented recently.

Does it has syntax hightlight and intellisense to mediawiki format? Which are what I'm concerned.

I typed with many program languages with such tools so I know how convenient it is. Therefore I suffered a lot without those tools.

Sorry for complained too much on it. I'll look for a solution myself.

[swift warren]

I find a vscode extension named 'wikitext' which meets my needs.
https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=RoweWilsonFrederiskHolme.wikitext
I can edit wiki in a more convenient and more comfortable way now!

[languid kayak]

Yeah, as Vaileasys said, I also use the browser. For some simple regex, I use notepadqq, but I don't need syntax highlighting much, as I rarely touch templates 😄

[languid kayak]

I might be wrong, but I'm not sure any wiki does it. There are sites like Crowdin, Transifex, Weblate or Poeditor, but I don't think these are suited to Wiki much. Vaileasys tried to leave comment for translating the main page, but it turned out they weren't really used much, so I removed it when updating the pages, as it was extra mainteneance for me 🤔

[digital helm]

I've updated the header template https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Header
It shouldn't be necessary to have a separate template for each language anymore. Just use {{Header}}

-It should now use the display title for category names instead of the EnglishName/LanguageCode.
-also fixed getting the non-Category page if it's a redirect or has a display title
-Fixed the colouring scheme not applying properly on non-english pages.
-English words are now translatable in the Translation template https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Translation. These words are:

| Page updated = 
| Main index =```
I've added a quick guide for translating on the doc https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Header#Translating

[swift warren]

I mean that translators only maintain the text content that needs to be translated on the page, and lock the layout of the page, so that the translators can focus on the translation work and no need to worry about inconsistent layout.

[languid kayak]

Yeah, not totally impossible to have something like that, but not managable and currently not available in the wiki, so you need to keep the layout as is 🙂

[swift warren]

I see. But hope you can take it into consideration.

[digital helm]

We're working towards simplifying translating as much as possible. This is mostly being done with templates, like these: #pzwiki_editing message and #pzwiki_editing message
But this takes a lot of time to setup.

Also, this is the intended functionality of Template:Translation https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Translation
I'm currently focusing adding it to other templates, so they can be used more widely.

What you're asking for though is part of the Translate extension #pzwiki_editing message
The problem we currently have is that, although the wiki is 12 years old, it's very 'young', in that we're still setting things up that are essential to the wiki functioning smoothly and being coherent. And because things are constantly changing in the game (often big changes), I don't think we can expect users editing the English pages to know how the markers (<!--T:1-->) would work. So I could see that getting messy. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Translate/Page_translation_example
But, it's something I'd personally like to have, but not something we'd seriously look into until the wiki is in a more organised and stable state.

[swift warren]

I'd willing to looking forward to your improvement. And I'll try to support you as I could.

[white wolf]

on a different note - it might be helpful to give translators a discord role for each language just so that we can organise better. i ask this because i've found myself forgetting who's doing which language and it's a bit daunting to be the only one translating a language hehe...
just a thought!

[swift warren]

I thought the same way. It's like subgroups for each language organized by admins and each groups has their own leader. But the translators in this wiki are too few that this method seems not work as we think.

[digital helm]

Could be done with a thread for each language, in this channel (not entirely sure how threads work though). Although as Vibrance mentioned, there's very few editors. It's not often we have more than 1 editor per language at a time (other than English).

If things pick up though, we'd ideally have a separate community portal per language. So each language can manage issues separately.

[white wolf]

threads is a good idea, although they'll have to be created by a user with the permission to do so, as i can't do it myself

that way the information stays organised as well

the downside is that it seperates information per language, which may lead to duplicate questions/answers and missed info

[swift warren]

In my opinion, a well organized community can appeal to more contributors. Otherwise they might see the terrible guide or confusing pages and ran away.😂

[white wolf]

aww come on, it's not terrible! and we stuck around, so others will too. we just need to get things going. ^^

[swift warren]

I don't mean that our community are those terrible ones, but make it better can reach more contributors.

[white wolf]

yeah, it'll be great, it's a great community already so it can only extend to the wiki as well

[swift warren]

I reviewed the code, maybe there is a word 'Unknown Version' needs to be translated, too.

[swift warren]

By the way, as less and less templates need '/language code' suffix, their documentation will have only an English version. Maybe add a language bar on these templates' documentation would be a resolution.

[white wolf]

The translation should now be transcluded to pages with the language code subpage, instead of the English text (default).

I struggle with the term 'transclusion', because while i kinda learned what it means from doing a search online, i've never heard it being used in any situation, so i don't know whether a dutch version (transcluderen) would be used, or simply the english version (which happens a lot in dutch). is there a synonym that could be used for the english term?

like... there's not even a Dutch language Wikipedia page for it lol

i think i would like to be able to get away with the term 'inclusion', unless that's offensively wrong

for the time being i'm going to go with the Dutch translation of:
The translated version should now be used automatically on pages with the language code subpage, instead of the English text normally used.

[white wolf]

Edit: I answered my own question, keep reading lol

Wanting to work on the page https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Translation, but I'm still a bit confused. Apologies, because I think I keep asking the same thing and I just don't really get it, but I do not seem to be able to find this part:

Once in the edit screen, you'll see a list of entries that look like: | Language = Language

Looking at https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Translation&action=edit I do not see such a list. I'm including a screenshot to show what I do see. Am I on the wrong edit page after all, or am I just looking at an early version of that template that doesn't include the list yet?

On https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Translation/nl&action=edit I do see something that looks like that description, but the list consists of a single entry (| Language = Taal).

... and I just answered my own question by looking at the Spanish version on https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Translation/es&action=edit... lol

Apologies again, disregard the above. I'll leave it up, just in case someone else tries to find the answer to a similar question.

[white wolf]

I used a regex on the Spanish list to remove all of the Spanish translation, so others can use this text file to translate their own templates. And now... onto the Dutch translation! 👍

Edit -- attachment removed in favour of an updated one here: <#pzwiki_editing message>

My advise would be to edit the list in the file and not your browser, just so you can save regularly (use Ctrl+S in most cases) and don't risk losing all of your work when the power cuts out or your computer unexpectedly crashes or freezes or who knows what disasters can happen when editing a list of almost 1800 lines (!!).

[swift warren]

The translating work is on the process, so this list will change frequently. Vaileasys seems still working on the multi-language work on basic templates. After that he may edit a completed list of translations.

[white wolf]

oh! do you think it'll be a wasted effort to translate that list as it is right now?

[swift warren]

most of them may not change, so don't worry.

[white wolf]

yeah then i'll just keep going for now, we can always add to it if needed

[swift warren]

As the wiki is changing its basic structure now, the translating work may be difficult.

[white wolf]

i don't actually understand how wikis are structured to begin with, so hopefully that won't be too much of a hindrance to me

[swift warren]

I'm trying to review template code of the wiki, so I said that.

But in case of the translating method changed, I believe admins would save your work as much as possible.

[white wolf]

i'm kind of also hoping that it might be able to be used for helping to translate the game

if not automatically due to formatting, then perhaps manually

[swift warren]

The translating process of the game seem have other people working on. And we actually can use their translations but not reverse.

[white wolf]

oh i see

i'm not sure what the status is of the Dutch version of the game

i play in English

[swift warren]

Since you're playing in English, why do you decide to translate the wiki into Dutch?

[white wolf]

to be helpful

[swift warren]

By the way I'm Chinese and I play in Chinese.

[white wolf]

it was mentioned in the newsletter or some such that they were looking for help with it, so i decided to help for a while

[swift warren]

authentic hero 👍

[white wolf]

haha not really, just me doing my part. i really applaud the devs for being incredibly facilitating towards the players and modders, so i want to pay back the favour by helping out a bit as well i guess.

i'm big on community as a concept, big proponent of a grassroots approach for all teh things 😜

[swift warren]

This game will be better because of the contribution of people like you.😎

[white wolf]

and you

[digital helm]

Don't waste your time translating anything from the "Notice Box Descriptions" section. That has been replaced by translating the templates directly.

[white wolf]

😅 just in time before i got too far in haha

i could just continue it so it's easy to copy and paste later?

[digital helm]

lucky! Removing that was one of my next things to do, so people (such as yourself) don't accidentally translate

[white wolf]

haha

i'll update the file, give me a few minutes

[digital helm]

I'll give you new notice box stuff

[white wolf]

sure

[digital helm]

This one you can translate the entire thing, leaving things like {{{build}}}. Then send to me and I'll add it. These are the same process as the Translate template we had trouble with. (still improving that process)

This one translate only after the equals sign

[white wolf]

so don't include it in the Translate template but keep it seperate?

[digital helm]

yeah just send it back to me. They go on pages like this https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Improve

[white wolf]

sure thing, i'll prioritise these two before continuing the other

[digital helm]

There's also these, which go in that Translation template. https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Translation/nl

| Page updated = 
| Main index =
| Unknown Version = ```

[digital helm]

See above. You can add "Uknown Version", I'll add it to the template so it'll be translated

[white wolf]

adding those under 'Other'

updated file

[digital helm]

I would still recommend having the non-English version for the documentation. They may either be <noinclude>{{{documentation}}}</noinclude>

Or if you want to transclude the entire template, that's fine too. I'll leave that up to you.
E.g. {{Header|{{{1|}}}|{{{2|}}}...}} etc.
That way you'd be able to use {{Header}} or {{Header/zh-cn}} to have the same result.

[white wolf]

found a minor error: space behind <br> in <!-- Underconstruction Notice --> (line 14ish?)

[digital helm]

Shouldn't have an effect on the output, but best to remove it. Same with <!-- Move --> after the </span> before the if.

Thanks!

[white wolf]

got it

i don't know if this will get updated based on user settings or something, but NL uses the DD/MM/YY format for dates, as opposed to the American MM/DD/YY format

[digital helm]

yeah, that can be set in Preferences. I've got it set to DD/MM/YY too.

[white wolf]

okidoki, just noticed that the news page does not update the embedded content though, just fyi
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:MainPage_News/nl

[digital helm]

Yeah, I've recently found out how to have use the user's preference. So I'll do that

[digital helm]

Awesome! Thank you

[white wolf]

@digital helm how do i add an 'under construction notice' on a page?

[digital helm]

add {{Underconstruction}} at the top, under {{Languages}}

[white wolf]

thanks

meh, doesn't really work for the Template:Translation page, i'll leave it out to avoid confusion lol

just added a little Dutch language warning as a comment on the edit page

calling it good for today, i'll continue on that page again soon

[agile vale]

Does anyone know what the Full Encumbrance column is supposed to be?

I had assumed it's effective capacity with weight reduction minus weight of the bag but none of the numbers make sense

[flat sun]

it looks like the others are bag weight + (capacity * weight reduction), but the bowling ball bag one is just calculated wrong

[agile vale]

wouldn't the weight of the bag be subtracted rather than added?

the rest are off by a mile too

is there any approval process for the page edits?

[restive adder]

Nope, but your edits may be reviewed by other editors

[flat sun]

i'm not sure why it'd be subtracted, isn't it supposed to represent the item's maximum encumbrance?

[agile vale]

I mean the weight of the bag itself, I don't imagine it adds to capacity

But I'll check just in case

[flat sun]

i think it's meant to represent the weight in the inventory of that bag when it's full

that's what that formula should show anyway

[agile vale]

nevermind, that's what it is

I forgot weight reduction doesn't effect capacity

[languid kayak]

Looks neat, though might be slightly complicated, but I see your motivation for the system, something to take a look at definitely 😛

[languid kayak]

transclusion is almost exclusively used on wiki(pedia), yeah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transclusion (sadly page's not in Dutch)

[languid kayak]

Yeah, I already spent some time preserving as much I could when migrating the main pages 😄 The history's saved in the database, even for the remove pages, so in case something's truly lost, ping me and I'll see if I can dig something up

[languid kayak]

Same 😄 Not sure about Dutch, but languages are generally advanced and I'd love to use translations for the game (items, skill names, crafting names) as much as possible. Will take a while to set up but it's mentioned in here: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Translations#Miscellaneous and I did initial work with some RegEx for Polish translation and crafting here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z7ZWRQ82EDL2AC4yMJDk3jMjH2RXaYejefr36WyfJ_c/edit#gid=0

[swift warren]

@digital helm I reviewed the code of Template:Header again. It seems that only when the first param is one of Community|PZwiki|Modding|The Indie Stone pages would be rendered as the {{Infobox_nc|Community}} background-color. However, those pages will finally have their subpages each contains their translated version. Maybe we should take this case into consideration?
#{{#switch:{{{1|{{ROOTPAGENAME}}}}}|Community|PZwiki|Modding|The Indie Stone={{Infobox_nc|Community}}|#default={{Infobox_nc|default}}}};

And I think this switch code may be reused as another template so that the code of Template:Header doesn't look too confusing.

[digital helm]

Ah, I overlooked that. I'll probably make use of Template:Language code and Template:Subpage, and also change ROOTPAGENAME to CATBASEPAGENAME.
Then like you said, put it into a template subpage. I had previously considered putting the bulk of the code into a sub-template to make it look neater.

[swift warren]

@digital helm I improve the Header template in my way. The catetory link will link to target page with a language code, but the display name removes the subpage which makes it looks better. I tested the code with Template:Header/zh-cn page so the noinclude tags has a header/zh-cn testcase. Hope it helps you.

By the way I removed all Template:Check title cause there's no need to use it in my template.

[digital helm]

check title is used to return the correct display title. wouldn't this just display, e.g. Community in the header, instead of the Chinese translation?

Or do you think having the English page name is preferred?

Also, you have line break issues.
This: </noinclude> <includeonly> <table...
Should be like this:
</noinclude><includeonly><table...

[swift warren]

We can display the name without a slash but a link to the correct translated page.

[digital helm]

Oh, it's in the noinclude. The commented Documentation is doing it

[swift warren]

I use Translation template to include every category name, so every category will have an translation.

[digital helm]

Right. But we need it to be consistent. I'm concerned folks will more readily add {{DISPLAYTITLE}} to a page, than figure out how to add it to {{Translation}}

[swift warren]

In my opinion, in this way editors will only add categories without a slash, which is easier to edit(may be).

the best way is to let templates handle all the translation subpages' links instead of editors adding it mannually.

[digital helm]

I agree. It's annoying that we have 2 ways of translating. Either the template, or the magic word.
@languid kayak we'll need your opinion.

Is it preferred to write the Header template like

1. {{Header|PZwiki|Template}}
   Or
2. {{Header|PZwiki/zh-cn|Template/zh-cn}}
   In (1) we're consistent across languages and get the translations from Template:Translation.
   Whereas (2) we're not consistent and the translation is dependant on the DISPLAYTITLE of the target page.

Or do we incorporate both and have one of them as the fallback?
Translation > DISPLAYTITLE > English

[swift warren]

In (1) all the templates will need only one version(no translated versions), but their documentation will need. In this case we can reduce many pages to maintain.

[digital helm]

I like the idea of fewer pages to maintain 👌

[swift warren]

Same as you.

[digital helm]

I'll give Faalagorn a chance to look over it, then probably add the changes tomorrow if I get the chance

[languid kayak]

I'd say 1st way and add /zh-cn automatically when possible. Shorter and less chance for mistakes

So yeah, seems we have a consesnus and some changes to do 😄

Different timezones sadly, so took a while for me to respond 😛

[languid kayak]

oh, a round number 😄

[digital helm]

no one make any new pages

[swift warren]

So will my header code be used? @digital helm

If so I will improve other templates, too.

[digital helm]

Yeah. I may make some adjustments to have the display title as a fall back (so long as it's not too challenging to do)

[digital helm]

That would be appreciated 🙂

[swift warren]

In my opinion, the title doesn't has a slash has no connection to whether it's link is useable. So maybe there's no need for a fall back. When the link is an empty page, the hover will display a page not exist hint, so we may don't need other judge conditions.

[digital helm]

I'll have to take a proper look at it. But the intention of the fall back was to use the string in Template:Translation, if that returns the English word, then use the page's displaytitle, else return English word/wiki title.

They may end up being too convoluted, but I'd have to see it

[swift warren]

I'd rather to see default English title if there are no translated version than the title with a language code, which looks discord.

[digital helm]

I agree, I meant the display title. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Display_Title

[swift warren]

I don't really get how it work in the wiki. Is there some pages' titles need another title but we can't change it's title directly?

[digital helm]

Each page has a title, known as a wiki title, which is what's in the URL. But we can change the display title with the {{DISPLAYTITLE}} magic word. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words

To keep things organised, we have the wiki title as the English word with the language code as the subpage, so for example, a Hammer in polish is displayed as Młotek although in the URL it's Hammer/pl. The wiki title is displayed underneath the display title. See the image. or the page: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Hammer/pl. Or for categories, see: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Weapons/pl
(this example we're actually using the name in {{Translation}} for the display title)

We can then call the wiki title with {{FULLPAGENAME:pagename}} or get the display title with {{#getdisplaytitle:pagename}}

[swift warren]

So with this extension, we don't need too many translation entries in Template:Translation?

[digital helm]

It's still a bit up in the air. A lot of it is still experimental and trying to find something that works best. The main point of DISPLAYTITLE is to have the translated version appear at the top of the page, instead of, for example: Hammer/pl.
We've only recently moved non-English pages to be a subpage of the English word (probably still more out there).

But, because we have so many pages already with DISPLAYTITLE, it's usually easier to get it from there with #getdisplaytitle rather than include it in Template:Translation then call it. So, there's a lot less doubling up on maintenance.

The original intention was to use Template:Translation everywhere. But there's a limit to the amount of templates/switch calls you can have on a page. Which is a problem for things like Navboxes: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Navbox_food
Having all of these words use Template:Translation, on a non-English page, would likely result in an error and the template wouldn't render at all.
But by using /language_code, it'll display the display title (Młotek) rather than the wiki title (Hammer/pl) so long as the page exists and has a custom display title. This is where Template:Subpage comes in. Adding it to the end of a wikilink, will return the correct subpage name. so on an English page [[Hammer{{Subpage}}]] will link to Hammer, whereas on Polish (pl) it'll link to [[Hammer/pl]] BUT display as Młotek

I hope that makes sense. And sorry about the information dump. But I think this may be the best direction for translating. And therefore kind of important for making templates 😛

[swift warren]

I see. I'll try to improve Template:Header/zh-cn with {{DISPLAYTITLE}} and see the effect.

A hero translated Knox Event page into zh-cn just now! What a great contribution! ❤️

[digital helm]

I'd recommend Template:Check title where you can, to check if a page has a display title. Or look at improving its functionality.

[swift warren]

I'll try it.

[swift warren]

@digital helm I improved it as the image below. The first tag named Main has been translated correctly(I added a {{DISPLAYTITLE}} to Main/zh-cn page). What should the word be if the page doesn't have that magic word(e.g. Category:PZwiki/zh-cn in this image)?

[digital helm]

Category: should be omitted, along with /zh-cn, so just "PZwiki". Look at Template:CATBASEPAGENAME if you're having trouble to get it to work

I need to add functionality to CATBASEPAGENAME to accept a pagename parameter.

[swift warren]

Here is new Template:Header/zh-cn code.

It works correctly in my test though there are too much repetitive code.

@languid kayak I notice your correction, the Documentation has each translated version so the language code should be preserved.

Just to remind in case you edit other pages because of this reason.

[languid kayak]

But it does pick up the right documentation right? Not sure if it's better to explicitly state it to avoid redirect, though I updated it with the links update to keep the other languages in line, and I believe the /xx wasn't needed for documentations 🤔. Might have changed after @digital helm changes, though if so, feel free to update it as well in other variants (currently only zh, as Russian is using an old version I didn't touch 😄

[swift warren]

@digital helm Can I create new Template page to test whether I can extract code from Template:Header? Because I can't delte pages, so I may add extra work to you.

[digital helm]

It's just for translated text. I think Vibrance made it function the same. I haven't gotten to that one yet, to only use {{Documentation}} for all languages.

[languid kayak]

Though actually might as well keep {{Languages}}, {{Documentation}} and [[Category]] in the new lines, as we do on the main pages. Doesn't matter I guess, I just like to have them uniform 😄

[digital helm]

Yeah, that's fine. Just put {{Deletion}} when you're done. Not hard to delete pages

[languid kayak]

Similarily, I kinda moved the <noinclude> to the top uniformly, since it doesn't matter where [[Category:]] is at, though I believe it caused some issues for something before? Where the actual template was shown to soon

[swift warren]

@languid kayak I understand the same code format you did, but change code may cause wrong function.

[digital helm]

I think the only issue was changing {{Documentation/zh-cn}} to {{Documentation}}, so it's no longer translated. Everything else liked fine.
I also think best to have Categories at the bottom of the page, or at the bottom of the <noinclude> if a template.

Whether the <noinclude> is at the top or bottom shouldn't matter. Functionality-wise

[swift warren]

I thought those templates should ultimately remove language code from the magic word, and the translation should be decided automatically by the code.

[swift warren]

I'd prefer only one noinclude tag which is one the top.😊

In case someone may ignore the code on the bottom (a small category link).

[digital helm]

The goal is to remove the need of the language code in the template, but templates that haven't been transferred to work like that yet should have the language code. When I change the template, I'll change where it's transcluded.

[swift warren]

Because the content of noinclude tag is always shorter than includeonly tag.

[swift warren]

Got it, I will give help, too.

I recommend add an icon in front of Navigation bar like the Language bar to make it align up.

[digital helm]

I had thought the same. Something like this perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Disambig_gray.svg

[swift warren]

Seems not so fit in my opinion.🤔

[digital helm]

PZ icons are preferred. Maybe there's an item/icon that'll fit

[swift warren]

My artistic sense isn't good, sorry I can't help with it.😂

@digital helm I try to create a template called Header category and use it in the Template:Header. Here is the new code.

[digital helm]

Exactly what I was wanting to do. Looks good! Would be best as a subpage for Template:Header. So something like Template:Header/category

But not a big deal, we can look at that later

Also, for this

  [[Category:Templates]]
</noinclude>
<includeonly>```

It's best practice to include on same line, or have comments, like you did after noinclude, otherwise you get line breaks. So:
```<noinclude>[[Category:Templates]]</noinclude><includeonly>```

[swift warren]

Maybe it can be improve by extracting the whole span tag into the template. But I believe you can handle it as you wish.

[digital helm]

If they're always the same, I think so too

The languages template does it like this too https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Languages

}}{{Languages/Lang|es|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|fr|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|hu|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|it|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|ja|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|ko|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|nl|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|no|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|pl|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|pt|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|pt-br|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|ru|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|th|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|tr|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|uk|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|zh|{{{1|}}}|
}}{{Languages/Lang|zh-cn|{{{1|}}}|```

[swift warren]

It's so annoying that wikitext doesn't ignore the break like html

[digital helm]

I know, but it needs to be simple enough for your average person to edit.

[swift warren]

The final update is up to you. I just find another template to improve.

[digital helm]

Thank you for doing that! Saved me a lot of time. I'll look at it closer tomorrow and implement it

[swift warren]

So many bracket makes me confused to understand the structure.😔

[digital helm]

Don't worry, I think it's the same for everyone. I struggle to read someone else's code 😛
So much easier to start from scratch, than add to something

[languid kayak]

@swift warren we've been discussing using https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:MyLanguage to automatically redirect to the pages, e.g., https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Main_Page however, it's based on the language set in https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:Preferences

We currently have zh and zh-cn, but MediaWiki defines it more precise – if we ever decide to move the pages, which is the language you translate (and which interface translation for Wiki would you use)? I suppose zh-Hans and zh-Hant should be enough, fiting what's in https://github.com/TheIndieStone/ProjectZomboidTranslations/blob/master/CH/language.txt and https://github.com/TheIndieStone/ProjectZomboidTranslations/blob/master/CN/language.txt in-game, or do we have to be more precise specifying the region, I assume zh-Hans-CN for zh-cn and ZH-Hant-TW for zh I guess?

[digital helm]

Something else to note, mediawiki has fallback languages. So, if you link to a zh-Hans page, but it doesn't exist, it redirects to zh, and if that doesn't exist, it falls back to English/basepage.
I assume this would be the same for zh-Hans-CN, but just a another step? i.e. zh-Hans-CN > zh-Hans > zh > English
So to simplify it as much as possible, we'd ideally only have 1 step, so zh-Hans and zh-Hant.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Language#Fallback_languages

[languid kayak]

yeah, just nocied that and said so on private to Vaileasys 😄

[swift warren]

We Chinese often recognize two languages as zh-hans and zh-hant. Actually other languages is same as one of these, only some expression differences.

Chinese use zh-hans more, other countries with Chinese may use zh-hant.

[languid kayak]

Yeah, similar with English, seems Wikipedia MediaWiki only have the generic "English" which tries to be neutral and only recognizes Canadian and British (though there's minor differences in other English-speaking regions)

[swift warren]

But we can read both of then. Little difficulty, only expression difference.

[languid kayak]

I guess Traditional would be harder for someone who only learned Simplified, and easier opposite but yeah 😄 I guess if MediaWiki redirects pages the Special:MyLanguage would work though

[swift warren]

It will of course.

[swift warren]

Actually we include me can read most of them but if you ask me to write, sorry I can't.😂

[languid kayak]

I think the current problem is that both zh-cn and zh are translated to simplified chinese according to https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T258492#9028038 🤔

I doubt we have any folks doing edits in zh, can you confirm all these pages https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Zh are in traditional indeed @swift warren? If not, maybe we'll need some splitting similar how pt and pt-br are. I can compare with the help of Google Translate and comparing the game files 😛

[swift warren]

guides, build41, 特性, 水 are simplified, others are traditional

[languid kayak]

All right! So I guess it's best to start moving the pages to zh-Hans and zh-Hant to align with the interface and avoid the confusion? I guess it's best to avoid the minor regional differences?

[swift warren]

yeah, and zh-cn pages are all simplified

[languid kayak]

Okay, I moved all the pages to the zh-Hans and zh-Hant as needed, though there's still some links that are not updated and pages that might have been missed, feel free to report them to me whenever you find any! Hopefully the clarification of simplified and traditional will now be better as in game 🤞

[swift warren]

@digital helm Have you updated the Template:Header's code?

[digital helm]

Not yet. Looking at it next

[swift warren]

Where can I translate the sidebar? I can't find the entrance.

[digital helm]

Needs to be done by an admin. Something Faalagorn and I have just been looking at over the last few days. Here's the list. Anything not there, is being removed. Some may also be added. I'll let you know

Fill that out and send it back and we'll add it.

@languid kayak pinging you since you've been looking after this

[swift warren]

Can't be added by Translation word?

[digital helm]

nah

interface elements don't act like normal pages

[swift warren]

I see.

[digital helm]

Anything else in the interface you notice that isn't translated, let us know. Hard for us to tell since we use English

[swift warren]

by the way, are you two admins both use English without translation?

[digital helm]

Yeah. I'm monolingual, so I struggle wrapping my head around this stuff

[white wolf]

translating this to Dutch right now

[digital helm]

appreciate it

[swift warren]

@digital helm Done. Sorry that I don't know the common Chinese name of The Indie Stone so I leave it as English.

[white wolf]

Join official The Indie Stone Discord channel
In my opinion this should read Join official The Indie Stone Discord server, as a channel is only part of a server and can only be joined after joining the server as a whole, so unless I'm misunderstanding what the reader is encouraged to do, they should be invited to join a Discord server, not channel.

Just my €0,02 of nitpicky feedback.

[swift warren]

The list seems not complete. The Other PZ sites and behinds which need translation, too.

[digital helm]

Anything not there, is being removed. Some may also be added. I'll let you know
#pzwiki_editing message

[digital helm]

I agree, it should be server not channel.

Thank you both of you 🙂

[languid kayak]

I'm not sure The Indie Stone is even translated anywhere in the game?

[white wolf]

i've not been translating names at all

[languid kayak]

good point, might change that to a server instead 😄 Also, technically the server's called "Project Zomboid", though currently it's all fuzzy as https://theindiestone.com/ points straight to the forums 😛

[white wolf]

in my opinion we shouldn't do so, although for Chinese i guess it might be different due to a different script

[languid kayak]

Might change if TIS ever releases a new name

[white wolf]

yep, should be Project Zomboid server

[languid kayak]

I can't find a translation for simplified Chinese, but for Traditional, for example TIS T-shirt is not translated https://github.com/TheIndieStone/ProjectZomboidTranslations/blob/19143aafc76553c4a57ef678a32176ca99131620/CH/ItemName_CH.txt#L1745 ItemName_Base.Tshirt_IndieStoneDECAL = "TIS 圓領衫",

oh wait, it seems translated for simplified?

ItemName_Base.Tshirt_IndieStoneDECAL = "开发商T恤",

[white wolf]

i really don't know about what the conventions are for translating to languages in a different script, i just think it's the right thing to do in my own language not to translate names. i also wouldn't translate 'John' to 'Jan', ya know?

[languid kayak]

lua/shared/Translate/CH/ItemName_CH.txt:1745:    ItemName_Base.Tshirt_IndieStoneDECAL = "TIS 圓領衫",
lua/shared/Translate/CN/ItemName_CN.txt:1747:    ItemName_Base.Tshirt_IndieStoneDECAL = "开发商T恤",

So yeah, depends on the translator's approach 🤔

I don't think there are some guidelines to the translation and we certainly doesn't have any for the wiki (at least not yet) when it comes to translating things like "The Indie Stone" or "Project Zomboid" or even the places names, some languages do so, some don't

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page/es for example uses Proyect Zomboid while https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page/ko have everything translated

And with chinese it's https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page/zh-Hans simplified with the translation and traditional https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page/zh-Hant without, so opposite on what that TIS t-shirt is in-game 😄

I don't know which one is easier for players/readers, especially those not knowing or knowing English very poorly

[swift warren]

it's translated name is 'The Developer's T-shirt'😂

[languid kayak]

In Polish IIRC proper names aren't translated, there was a point when wiki was "Projekt Zomboid" but I changed it back

[swift warren]

Few players mentioned this name directly, so it doesn't have a Chinese name.

[white wolf]

i think that if it's translated in one place, it should be translated in the other place as well, because of helping players find things

[languid kayak]

Well, there was A TON of translator for the chinese in the game and some disagreements about how to translate things, also hard to control it since I doubt nasko or anyone from the TIS speaks Chinese.

Especially for simplified: https://github.com/TheIndieStone/ProjectZomboidTranslations/blob/master/CN/credits.txt

[white wolf]

i have no idea how i would translate 'zomboid' though, but that's beside the point lol

[swift warren]

in Chinese we split it into 'zombie destroy'.

[white wolf]

i think Dutch players will ridicule my translations if i make it "Zomboïde Project", especially since 'Zomboïde' - while technically correct - doesn't actually mean anything haha

like.. what even does zomboid mean? is it actually a word? i've always taken it to be a play on the word zombie, without any literal meaning

[swift warren]

not a word i think

[digital helm]

btw, I changed it to "server" already in EN.

[white wolf]

NL: Word lid van de officiële 'The Indie Stone' Discord server

[swift warren]

In Chinese we usually call Discord server as channel so my translation doesn't need to change.

[digital helm]

@swift warren Header template implemented! I had to adjust the Header category, it was adding space and a line break (still no idea why, but it works). I've moved "Header category" to "Header/category"

[languid kayak]

Didn't test it thoroughly yesterday, but woke up today to the idea to test it and apparently despite being zh-Hans and zh-Hant (uppercase H) in the preferences, wiki redirects Special:MyLanguage and uselang= variables to zh-hans and zh-hant so I'm thinking whether to move the pages 🤔

[digital helm]

Because non-English pages have been adding the language code, they may all be broken now, so if you see one, please remove the language code in the Header. 🙂

[swift warren]

This work should be fit for @languid kayak while checking pages.😝

[swift warren]

Does the mediawiki document use zh-Hans or zh-hans?

[languid kayak]

I'm looking over to it, it's currently a little messed up. I've mostly been talking with Vaileasys about this, should probably talk here instead so I won't have to repaste it 😄

I'm doing some testing on PZwiki and mediawiki so the redirects and interface localization would work properly, no matter what interface translation is being used lol

You browse PZwiki in English or Chinese? If Chinese, what's your locale from these?

[swift warren]

default are zh, I think.

I visit MediaWiki just now. It seems that I can change language into zh, and them the page has another selection named transform, which is default for none and can select other sub-language of Chinese like the image you showed.

[languid kayak]

From what I wrote to Vaileasys before:

Seems even MediaWiki.org isn't clear on that 😄
https://www.mediawiki.org/?uselang=zh-hans has a link to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki/zh and redirects to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki/zh-hans

They have https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Mw-mainpage-url/zh but https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Mw-mainpage-url/zh-hans was deleted per this change here https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Topic:Wlvcsxak71aw1tw5 which I don't get https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?oldid=4367576&diff=451015

Both uselang= and Special:MyLanguage use fallback languages when they don't find one, I think chinese falls back to simplified chinese if it can't find traditional chinese. It was briefly documented here, but there are some inconsistencies: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Language#Fallback_languages

We have a fairly new MediaWiki thanks to Kirrus, but the MediaWiki (and Wikipedia) use newest bleeding edge versions, which has separate yue scripts, but I tested gan scripts and they seem to fallback to zh-hans and zh-hant properly

[swift warren]

I even don't know they have simplifed and traditional versions.😂

@digital helm Do we have a bot on the wiki? I think we can use scripts to correct the broken templates.

[languid kayak]

I doubt we'll support it ever, but yeah, that's like that in MediaWiki 😛

[swift warren]

Most games I played which have translations have either zh-hans and zh-hant or only zh which usually equals zh-hans or zh-hant.

[digital helm]

running through it now https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:RecentChanges?hidehumans=1&limit=500&days=90&enhanced=1&urlversion=2

[swift warren]

My browser even didn't respond for a second when I opened the link.😂

[languid kayak]

Well, MediaWiki, stemming from truly multi-lingual Wikipedia, having dying and constructed language have a ton of designation. I don't think PZ will even have anyone setting the Chinese interface variants other than zh or its variants, but I tested them anyway – we do have it as a part of MediaWiki updates, they are translated on translatewiki https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:MediaWiki

zh                -> zh-hans
zh-Hans            -> zh-hans
zh-Hant            -> zh-hant

zh-Hans-CN        -> zh-hans
zh-Hans-MY        -> zh-hans
zh-Hans-SG        -> zh-hans

zh-Hant-TW        -> zh-hant
zh-Hant-HK        -> zh-hant
zh-Hant-MO        -> zh-hant

gan                -> zh-hant
gan-Hant        -> zh-hant
gan-Hans        -> zh-hans

hak                -> zh-hant

wuu                -> zh-hans

cdo                -> zh-hant

nan                -> zh-hant

It's just confusing the Hans and Hant are uppercase in the preferences and on W3C but instead it uses lowercase 😩 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_characters#Web_pages

For the languages we use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-3

Actually wait, I think it's 639-1 😄

Actually it's a mix of both for the MediaWiki preferences; some are alpha-2 some are alpha-3 🤷

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Wikimedia_languages

but yeah, seems it's just lowercase afterwards no matter what, similar to en-gb instead of en-GB, should've through earlier I guess, gonna do some moving 😄

so zh-hans and zh-hant

[languid kayak]

I think I updated all the Hans and Hant from yesterday and some zh and zh-cn while at it. @digital helm I guess there should be a way to find all pages that still end with zh and zh-cn so they could be moved? The same way https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Zh-hant and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Zh-hans are populated?

Currently https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Zh and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Zh-cn are empty, but I guess it's since I updated the templates early (not sure I picked everything up on time) – what template is responsible for this?

[swift warren]

@digital helm I reviewed the Template:Header and found that you add an extra <includeonly> tag.

I recommend add empty comment to formatting code which can both avoid line breaks and decrease code error.

[languid kayak]

Okay, July 2023 wiki news is up! https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:News#July_2023

[swift warren]

@digital helm Can we install this extension on the wiki? This feature can almost replace Template:Translation and make it easier to translate sentences.

[languid kayak]

That's actually mentioned in here: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Translations#Technical_(sysop) that way they'd be like in MediaWiki. Not sure if that's exactly what we'd want to have? That way you can't edit pages, just translate, but we'll see I guess. It'd require adding extensions as you said though, so that'd be Kirrus' job to add and maintain

[swift warren]

I think I still can edit pages as long as you don't add protection on the page.

@languid kayak And a small issue I found: On page Category:PZwiki/zh-hans, The output of {{ROOTPAGENAME}} is PZwiki/zh-hans, which should be PZwiki. I guess maybe the system doesn't regard this page as a subpage of Category:PZwiki? Can you handle it?

[languid kayak]

You can only translate pages with the plugin, can't edit the code:

Maybe it's not bad though? Haven't though around it yet

I only yesterday realized that the way we have set up translations is actually a supported ones 😄

I always believed you had to set up a wiki farm for translations, the way Wikipedia or FANDOM does it, but thanks to MediaWiki I realized that not only /xx for the pages is a supported way to do, you can also translate system messages that way – speaking of which, I'm in the process of adding it, so far I translated Polish sidebar, including tooltips

[languid kayak]

Adding this now

[languid kayak]

Random page and Visit a randomly selected page doesn't need to be translated btw, its translations are pulled from the MediaWiki translations now 🙂

We will need two new strings though:

Map = 
Official Project Zomboid map = 

Also pinging @white wolf for Dutch 😛

[swift warren]

地图 & 僵尸毁灭工程官方地图 @languid kayak

[languid kayak]

You can check them all now at https://pzwiki.net/?uselang=zh-hans 🙂

[languid kayak]

Should be all done too; just the Map and tooltip's missing, feel free to check https://pzwiki.net/?uselang=nl map tooltip: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Tooltip-n-map

[restive adder]

Every extra extension is more work for me when it comes time to upgrade, MediaWiki doesn’t have good upgrade tools. If it’s essential I can install it, but only if it’s absolutely worth the pain it’ll cause me every time I need to update MediaWiki 🙂

[languid kayak]

I'll need time with Vaileasys to evaluate if it's good for translations 🤔. I initially was negative for the reason Kirrus mentioned (I also like to have as little extension as possible), but if it turns out to be beneficial for translations, I guess we'll see 👀

[swift warren]

I suggest we try it out for some pages to see the effect and then decide whether to reserve or remove it.

[swift warren]

@digital helm The Template:Header still has some bugs. When the template is used in page Category:Main as {{Header|hidever=true}}, it will show Main twice: once for Main Index Category, another for Page Name. So maybe we should add a {{#if}} word to judge whether the current page is Category:Main to hide Page Name if true.

[swift warren]

@digital helm SorryI don't get the function of {{CATBASEPAGENAME}}. I compare the usage of {{BASEPAGENAME}} and {{#titleparts:|-1}} magic words and due to the description of them on MediaWiki they display the same result(https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions##titleparts). So why don't we just use one of them but to create another metatemplate?

[digital helm]

Categories don't have subpages. So BASEPAGENAME doesn't work

[digital helm]

Main might not need it. It may be replaced by navigation (if we use it). But still probably best to include the if

[swift warren]

Fixed. If the current page name is Main then only display Main category. Otherwise works the same as before.

Also you may need to update it's doc. @digital helm

[swift warren]

In Wikipedia each languages' category has a category name.
e.g. Category:Content in Chinese is Category:总览 instead of Category:Content/zh-hans.
What about apply on our wiki?

[digital helm]

Wikipedia has a completely different way of recognising languages. We use the subpage name, like mediawiki. Wikipedia uses the domain name, i.e. en.wikipedia.org
So we wouldn't have any way of recognising languages and we'd have conflicts, as many languages use the same word for the same things. E.g. Agriculture

[swift warren]

@digital helm As the Header doesn't need a translated version, should we copy the code to the subpage?

[digital helm]

call it with all the parameters. i.e. {{Header|{{{1|}}}|{{{2|}}}|{{{3|}}}... ...|hidever={{{hidever|}}}|hidecat={{{hidecat|}}}}}. In case the formatting changes, so we don't need to update each one.

[white wolf]

Official Project Zomboid map = Officiële Project Zomboid kaart```

[languid kayak]

Thanks, but do we have the rest :P? #pzwiki_editing message

[digital glade]

The Vehicles page's Types section speaks of the Occupation occupation rather than the Mechanic occupation. How can I fix that ?

[swift warren]

This page need update cause the content of sidebar has been changed.

[languid kayak]

yeah it does 😄 It's on my TODO list to overhaul it with all the new screenshots, but the sidebar should be final for now

[swift warren]

ok. I'll stop translate this page until you update it.

btw, Task page seems has a time mistake. The updated day is 29 August 2023 but it is the end of this month😂 . Maybe it should be 29 July 2023?

[languid kayak]

oh, it might not be a total overhaul, and I might take a while to do so; maybe this week, but maybe 😄

I want to add translation guide and merge things to do on the help pages and maybe mention some things that were missed in style guide, but you guys seem to manage fine, so I guess it's not that important – also help Editing and Help:Tables are missing 😛

[languid kayak]

haha, indeed {{REVISIONDAY2}} {{CURRENTMONTHABBREV}} {{REVISIONYEAR}}

Seems there's no non-number name for month, that's why Vaileasys used it but it's wrong as it shows current month

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words

okay, should it good now?

it does show the 2nd August thouhg, as I just made an edit 😄

[languid kayak]

Yeah, should be good, actually, might as well update it for news too, so it uses the date from preferences, I'll take a look, maybe not now

[swift warren]

@languid kayak This page need to be removed.

[languid kayak]

done 👌

[swift warren]

Category:Templates seems should be the subcategory of Community instead of PZwiki due to the Main Index.

Actually I don't get why Template:Header need to change background color by it's {{ROOTPAGENAME}}. Is there any rules?

@digital helm Template:Header may need another update. If current page is the direct subcategory of Main Index, the template should add [[Category:Main{{Subpage}}]] automatically.

I just noticed that the categories Header added are all default page. Maybe each line should add a {{Subpage}} code like this:

[swift warren]

@languid kayak This empty page needs to remove, too.

[languid kayak]

done too 🙂 If you want you can use {{Deletion|reason|speedy=1}} in the meantime for pages like that

[restive adder]

@languid kayak I've deleted the broken Smallrag.png. Thought there were two, but only other image pending is CanTuna.png, which is being used on 3 pages currently

[languid kayak]

there were, but it may not appear as to deletion

not in front of the PC tho, will send it later though!

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/File:Moodle_zombie.png

(found it 😛)

[restive adder]

deleted now 🙂

[digital helm]

I'll add it tomorrow 🙂

[lucid reef]

fuck

for some reason it took me here

sorry

[languid kayak]

@swift warren Any reason for https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Main/zh-hans/doc&curid=21333&diff=138925&oldid=137843 ? I'm asking, as I always do remove the spaces when possible; does it makes it more readable for you? While minor, if it is that way, maybe we should re-evaluate the headers, wherer they should have space or not? I always lean to less characters as it's "optimization", but readability is as well as if not more important, especially as the pages are served without any spaces anyway 😄

Also, what's better @digital helm {{Documentation}} or {{Documentation/xx}}? I don't know honestly at that point: https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Translation/zh-hans&curid=22717&diff=138929&oldid=137597

[languid kayak]

What was the reason BTW? Corruption in database? Are these "easy" to find?

[restive adder]

Ish. Suspect old images and image formats migrated at some point

[languid kayak]

image formats? Extensions surely stayed, we didn't had any update on that 🤔

Anything I could find/take a closer look at? Any cut-off date point?

[restive adder]

No, subtle thing, in the database itself. Not something you’ll find unless you try to delete something and it fails

Basically semi/missing history

[swift warren]

I add spaces between the headers because I saw the help page on mediawiki did so. I always think when editing the code we should take readability on the first place (however it's usually used for programming languages). Maybe we should consider this preference into style guide so that the format can be consistent.

[languid kayak]

Well, I've been updating it always the other way, so I guess there should be one way or another decided else we'll be always doing it backwards 😄

Had the conversation here before, or maybe it was in private chat with Vaileasys; Wikipedia actually seems to have it both ways, as it doesn't matter for the formatting, and I think AWB doesn't correct it one way or another. Most wikis seems to lean to removing it, as I don't think it adds more to clarity? At least the ones I did edits (PCGamingWiki and fandom wikis)

I did started correcting the {{DISPLAYTITLE}}, {{Language}} and {{Header}} to have the extra lines for clarity though, previously I stuck them to one line, so you can probably find pages where it's still like that – just gotta be careful to not have an extra line when transcluding things (templates or pages), as that makes a new paragraph and it did happen.

Wanted to add it to style guide indeed, to avoid confusion about it, maybe not today, but might actually get myself into it finally, to avoid confusion 😄

[digital helm]

done

[digital helm]

If {{Documentation/xx}} exists, I think that's preferred currently. {{Documentation}} doesn't translate automatically yet. {{Documentation}} will be preferred eventually. But for now, having /xx is fine. I'll remove /xx from all the pages that have it once the translations are working.

[swift warren]

All right, I'll remove the spaces when editing other pages. Adding spaces is just my formatting preference, so if you decide to remove it(adding it to style guide as soon as possible I suggest), I won't do the opposite.

[swift warren]

@digital helm Does page Category:Languages need a language bar(I think maybe have one is better)?

[swift warren]

@digital helm I think maybe we can make use of the templates pages' subpage to handle the translated words/phrases like:
{{#switch:{{{1}}}
<!-- phrase1 -->
| 1 = ...
<!-- phrase2 -->
| 2 = ...
<!-- ... -->
| ...
}}
It just works like the Template:Translation but only serves its parent page. In the parent page we just replace the words/phrases which need to translate with {{template name{{Subpage}}|word/phrase number}}.
This method can not only reduce the cost to maintain Translation page's thousands of words, but also can make use of template pages' subpage because if we called templates without a slash, their subpages don't need a source code but their documentation need a translated description.

[languid kayak]

I removed some zh and zh-cn previously when moving to hant/hans

[swift warren]

I'll add it when I see those pages.

@digital helm It seems that you added an extra {{Subpage}} on the Header. This will add a slash after the version code when use it on a subpage.

[languid kayak]

Okay, so I'm slowly getting to updating some help pages including the style guide, I'll might add translation tutorial and merge things to do and will add rules about the preferred code style. I was doing some searches, but couldn't find anything online, so to summarize, what I've been doing so far with the code and will probably mention in the style guide. Keep in mind it's not set in stone, and I'm open for suggestions, it'll always be possible to change it later!

• No space between = and Header, so ==Header== instead of == Header == (seems a space is default for MediaWiki, but it's omitted on some Wikipedia pages anyway and in other wikis, fewer characters and quicker to write mostly)
• No space in lists such as *List or #List (this is less enforced on Wikipedia and stuff like that)
• Capital letter for {{Templates}} and [[Links]] including [[Interwiki:]] ones such as [[Wikipedia:]] unless it's an abbreviation, such as [[mw:]] or a link in the text that would cause breaking sentence case.
• No extra line after empty headers, but a line after paragraph (I used to add empty line always, but I changed that for two headers), so

==Header==
Text

===Subheader===

but

==Header==
===Subheader===

• Extra newline after each template and infobox (this has changed from all in single line), so

{{DISPLAYTITLE}}
{{Languages}}
{{Header}}
{{Infobox
}}
Text

• No extra spaces at the beginning of the line (no tabs and space alignment, though it's less enforced, as it can help with readability for templates; just be careful with formatting)

I also lean to add semicolon to all single CSS properties, e.g., in <span> for this reason mostly https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11939595/leaving-out-the-last-semicolon-of-a-css-block.

Pinging @digital helm and @swift warren for comments, though I'm open for comments from anyone 🙂

And yeah, the discussion was in private with Kenji_03, so quoting it here too

Speaking of which, I'm always undecided on the whitespaces; I like keeping them consistent, AWB fixes some but not sure what kinda of this is included, can't find it at the first glance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/General_fixes

I briefly remember reading some discussion somewhere years ago, but would have to find it again 🤔

I also remember that some wiki (was it Arch Wiki? Wikipedia?) discouraging changes that don't change anything visible for the end user, but I do sometimes change them too, just so people (and I) don't apply the changes over and over to another pages 😛
Wikipedia is undecided to, on things like
==Headers== (and == Headers ==)
and *List or * List

Though I like to keep them without spaces, having them doesn't tramatically improve readability for me and I like things as concise as possible 😛
It only affects the source code btw, as the resulting HTML/CSS code from wikilanguage is the same in those cases I believe. Same with empty lines, just two are trated as <p>aragraph
Faalagorn
—
06/30/2023 1:23 PM
Can't find anything now 😩 Finding kinda unrelated stuff like a bug report https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T47803 or https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Formatting#Paragraphs but not what I found before, probably bookmarked that somewhere, though maybe I lost it? I'll take a look at home if I won't get occupied with something else 😛

Not important really in the end, reminds the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsoOG6ZeyUI situation, but I'd love to make it proper and consistent and avoid potential edit warrings 😛

[rocky grove]

Anyone know the maximum size of small bird?

[swift warren]

For most wiki pages, there are more paragraph than code that editors need to add, so maybe it's better not to only change the code format without changes visible. But for some templates such as Header, which has much source code and most editors may not try to edit it when it works fine. In these pages for readability reason, I prefer adding spaces/tabs to clarify the structure in case one day it needs to be fixed but no one can handle it in time.
For tabs and spaces in the video, I edit wiki with VSCode, which has a function that can automatically change tabs into spaces when you press the Tab key. And most code(including html, javascript, c/c++, etc.) I saw before use spaces to replace tabs, so I bring this habit into the wiki editing. Anyway, pages needing many tabs/spaces are quite few, the Header page are one of those exception. I believe without the tabs/spaces on every start of lines is a chaos, especially for code with a complex structure, as the templates, parameters and magic words are all surrounded by {} and can be nested into each other. That's why I rather add more spaces/tabs(with empty comments to avoid line breaks) than leaving then in one single line.

[languid kayak]

Not off the head; you could probably spawn a lot of them in debug to see what size's the biggest, but the proper way would be probably looking at the code…

[languid kayak]

I know, reading someone else's code afterward it's hard without nice formatting 😛 I asked Vaileasys once if he uses something for highlighting, but he only uses the browser editor like me. There are software that help you find unmatched brackets and such, but still.

Seems like resulting pages aren't minified, though the spaces are discarded anyway when the wikitext is changed to HTML, so the only possible saving, other than loading the edit window, would be from removing spaces and ; from CSS, but that's hard to justify for the clarity 😄

Speaking of CSS; I wonder if we should even use shorthand for colors or just type the #fffffffff instead of #fff 🤔 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3108860/how-can-i-use-3-digit-color-codes-rather-than-6-digit-color-codes-in-css

It's really down to personal preference much and while it would hard to have it consistent for other editors, it's really hard to judge the "right" way https://stackoverflow.com/a/44332306 😛

We also have mix and match in common.css so yeah 😄 https://pzwiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css

Totally minor, though would be nice to have consistency 😉

[swift warren]

This is html formatting but not wikitext formatting. I only edit template pages and common pages so it's up to you. And we just need to use class to apply the style.

[languid kayak]

css to be precise, yeah.

it's just for style=

BTW, I never really went into understanding the idea behind Notice, NoticeBox etc. I know Vaileasys was fixing some of the notice boxes to avoid having to translate them, but as I'm editing the edit guide, which template should be used?

{{Notice|Stub}}/{{Notice|Short}} or simply {{Stub}} as I generally used so far? I guess there's a reason, but we currently have three templates. I assume NoticeBox is like Crafting/Core, but not sure what's the difference between Stub and Notice|Stub, I suppose these are an aliases?

[languid kayak]

I also slowly stopped caring for "closing" br's since XHTML lost it's relevance, but it seems that Wikipedia still uses <br />: https://stackoverflow.com/a/20833968

[swift warren]

I think maybe Vaileasys wants to take all notices into one template. Then we only need to add parameters to apply different notices. In this way we need to maintain fewer templates, and I suppose that other templates such as Stub maybe finally be merged into Notice.

[swift warren]

I considered this before, too. When I clicked the Enter button on the toolbar of the edit page, it appeared <br> instead of <br \>. So I use the former from then on.

[languid kayak]

Doesn't really matter in the end 🤷. Only if someone is on ancient browser, which shouldn't happen. <br> is actually shorter and preferred for newer standard, but Wikipedia uses /> still, which got me wondering.

P.S. it's <br />, the slash is the opposite way 😉

[swift warren]

Oh sorry, I think the / but type the \.😝

[languid kayak]

BTW, I've been trying to wrap my head about some way of organizing the help pages, but it's convoluted 🤯

Some articles are pretty much copies of the MediaWiki ones, e.g.,:
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Editing_pages and https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Editing_pages (when https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Editing_for_beginners has equal amount of info)
as well as
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Formatting and https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Formatting (which mentions it's basically a copy)
while
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Links is just a stub compared to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Links
and
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Tables is not existing compared to the https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Tables

I wonder how much do we actually need to maintain those pages, instead of relying on the good MediaWiki ones that can (and will) be updated on a more regular basis and are translated too

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Editing_for_beginners is a nice page to start indeed, and it actually have equal information as editing pages one

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Navigation and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Creating_a_new_page seems nice too, unique to PZwiki

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Images I've yet to look at, but it seems to contain PZwiki exclusive info too

[swift warren]

I translated some of those pages before. And I prefer only remain articles which are unique to PZwiki, others just link to mediawiki's help pages is enough.

[languid kayak]

currently the Editing pages (which you and several others translated), Formatting (which has a rough Russian translation) as well as Links (which is stub) and Tables (which doesn't exist beside a rough draft in Russian https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Tables/ru) seems to be like that.

I thought of combining Editing Pages with the Editing for beginners, but I'm not 100% sure 🤔

[swift warren]

I prefer fewer pages for editors. More pages like basic wikitext gramma just go to mediawiki.

[languid kayak]

Yeah, I've been trying to reducing the number if possible; the less to maintain, the better 😄

[languid kayak]

For pages such as https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Images it's fine to be like that – I noticed that while the comment initially stated it's mostly copied from MediaWiki, the use-cases are unique to PZwiki, with the unused file formates and uncommon options left out, and examples being specific to PZwiki

[languid kayak]

This is done btw; I also updated the screenshots in other pages, though two of them still stretch the old version, hopefully they update soon™ as the cache expires.

[languid kayak]

Seems like they are being converted to <br /> anyway 😛 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Line-break_handling#<br>

[languid kayak]

Okay, I added the preferred code style to the style guide, along with some additions. Feel free to take a look at comment and point if anything's wrong/missing, especially as I'm getting tired now 😛

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Style_guide#Preferred_code_style

[swift warren]

I saw a game's fandom wiki and here is it's help pages:
Unfortunately, I didn't find such a table in en help page, the screenshot is from the zh wiki.
First line is Terms and policy:

• how to browse the wiki
• how to edit (what to pay attention to when editing)
• wiki terms
• copyright
  Second line is Editing help:
• a simple guide that how to create a new page or improve existing pages
• formatting
• a simply guide of teaching wikitext gramma (in one article)
• commonly asked questions and resolutions
• translation table (only for translated wiki articles)
  Last line is site management, which is not relative to Help, so ignored.

Hoping this can give help to how to edit Help pages. @languid kayak

[swift warren]

@digital helm I try to merge other notices into Notice so that editor may won't be confused about which template to use as some notices can not only be called from Notice but also can be called directly.
In this way the pages we need to maintain are fewer and because this template use switch, it's not complex to add new notices or remove not needed notices.

[languid kayak]

Thanks! There's no set stone on where wiki store things, we store some in Help and some in PZwiki 🙂

Here's the PZwiki: (Project:) namespace without redirects: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=4&hideredirects=1

And here's Help: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=12&hideredirects=1

I did some cleanup in PZwiki namescape before, now I'm cleaning up Help a little. The Things to do is to be (re-)moved and I already moved Style guide from PZwiki to Help.

In PCgamingwiki they have everything in Project: namespace: https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=4

Help is just the redirects; they don't use it elsewhere at all: https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=12

Fandom wikis are unusual in the matter, they are bound to some things (like license and privacy policy of Fandom) since they are hosted on Fandom servers, luckily PZwiki is self-hosted by the developer, so it's just what law and then what the developer team, The Indie Stone requires 🙂

[digital helm]

I think Template:Notice was used as well as the standalone Notice templates, so they were both used throughout the wiki, as 2 separate templates. So I made Template:Notice call the parent template instead, with basic parameters.

Because Template:Notice was essentially a list of all notice boxes, I kept it as it would be a good reference for new editors. Personally, I think calling the parent template directly should be preferred, avoiding an unnecessary switch. But I don't see any issue with Template:Notice being used. It just may not have all the parameters that the parent does.

Happy for that to change though

[swift warren]

So maybe the Notice template can be replaced by a category guide to contain those notices. Leaving two methods may cause the same confusion like Faalagorn faced for new editors.

[languid kayak]

So just use {{Stub}} instead of {{Notice|Stub}} or {{Notice|Short}} ideally? If so, then it's fine 👌

[worldly remnant]

I just expanded upon the Louisville in great detail, rewriting a good majority of it while adding a new Overview section that includes the majority of the details and context of the game lore surrounding the city.

if there's anything that I missed, please add to it! :D

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Louisville

I also added the Louisville Police Department as a notable landmark

[worldly remnant]

I've also created a new page for the Stars & Stripes gun store within the mall in Louisville. no images in the gallery yet though.

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Stars_%26_Stripes

[swift warren]

May I ask what's the difference between Tasks and Projects?

[languid kayak]

Not much really, except tasks are low scope and projects are big scope. Tasks are what I originally kept on my user page, things that needs to be done (TODO)

btw @thorn oak why was it needed? Doesn't it work with the space? https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Category:Maintenance_templates/zh-hans&curid=27307&diff=139119&oldid=139115

[swift warren]

yeah, you can try to replace it with space, then the language bar will not show other languages' links.

[languid kayak]

It works for me on preview

While uppercase don't

[swift warren]

Then maybe it's other pages' language bar that doesn't show the zh-hans's link. I don't remember the real reason but if it works fine I won't replace the blank with the underline and leave that summary.

[languid kayak]

Well, if it works, it works 😄 Though I wonder the reason; keep in mind that cache sometimes updates slowly and you have to add ?action=purge to purge the cache sometimes to see it quicker; sometimes even that might not work for the caching policy, but that's mostly the images

[swift warren]

OK, I'll do this the next time I edit the page. BTW maybe adding this note to the edit guide is better.

[restive adder]

Please don’t put action=purge into the documentation, it’ll work in edge cases and can increase load on the server

[swift warren]

However it seems that every documentations of templates have a purge button.

[languid kayak]

Yeah, probably best not to be overused to be put in visible spot for everyone to (over)use, though I agree it's in templates; a lot of wikis have it though, or should it be removed?

[restive adder]

As long as it’s not overused but templates probably need it

[swift warren]

Is the progress of the wiki suspended?🤔

[lean flame]

when medical pants article?

[digital helm]

No? Things are just done when they can be. I'll be taking a short break on the template/translation stuff. I'm burnt out a little on it

[digital helm]

I think I'll do this next

[languid kayak]

Yeah, we're still there around and I'm monitoring recent changes, so feel free to contribute whatever you want, I'll get them checked 👌

I got most time during weekends to do that, though sometimes things pop during weekends too 😄

Speaking of recent changes, is it how it's suppose to display or is it omission?

[swift warren]

Should we edit a new help:content page as some help pages are to removed or merged and there needs some new links to mediawiki help pages?

[swift warren]

Why is this template categorized into Templates without documentation whereas it does have a documentation, though the documentation has a Translation needed category.

[languid kayak]

I was thinking of this up this morning, wrote to Vaileasys, but can write here too:
I've been thinking about this now, to not needlessly duplicate info, I'd straight up remove the:

• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Editing_pages (and point to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Editing_pages)
• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Formatting (and point to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Formatting)
• https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Links (and point to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Links)

But I'd keep the rest and create the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Tables and keep the rest, but limit it to moslty having the PZwiki exclusive information, in case of tables it'd be mostly pzwiki and pzwiki-com being explained

Kinda similar how https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Images mostly mentions PZwiki images. Thoughts?

[languid kayak]

it isn't? Maybe it was cache being old again

[swift warren]

I have tried to purge the page and it didn't change.

[languid kayak]

but you see the same categories as me? Try different browser, or refresh browser cache too (ctrl+f5). Sometimes it's not the actual page but subpage that needs its cache cleared. Sometimes it just takes time.

[swift warren]

Same with you, but I see this page in Category:Templates without documetation. What's the reason?

Even on that page I only see two categories which Templates without documentaion is not here.

[swift warren]

I think we can shorten the count of help pages.

[restive adder]

Generally speaking you may confuse users by silently redirecting them to MediaWiki?

[swift warren]

In my opinion, those general guides linking to Mediawiki may only need a brief description instead of a full page.

[languid kayak]

Maybe not literally redirecting, but indeed avoiding copy-pasting if possible, these three pages I found not to include any things unique to PZwiki and they have to maintained and updated needlessly

The links are in Help:Contents anyway, so I'd just see if there's indeed nothing unique and just remove them I guess

[restive adder]

Maybe just a pointer, explaining that it’s the MediaWiki docs rather than ours? Or an exposed link, so that users can see they’re going to MediaWiki and not an internal pzwiki link? It’s probably a really minor edge case anyway, so not critical

[swift warren]

@languid kayak I see the Sitenotice is updated, maybe it also needs to be translated?

There are many pages link to a removed category in this page, but it's too many to be handled manually. And it seems is a task of Project Navigation and Categories. Maybe use scripts and a bot can be easier?

[languid kayak]

I tried translating that but for some reason simply slapping /xx after mediawiki message won't work. I tried finding documentation how to translate it, but I couldn't find it…

Feel free to take a look too, if not, maybe a question or bug report could be send to mediawiki about that.

Here was the Polish one: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Sitenotice/pl (still the old one) but won't show even if I change language https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=pl

[swift warren]

How does the translation of Sidebar work on? Can't we make Sitenotice works like it?

Though I checked those pages in namespace Mediawiki, I still couldn't figure out how those translated phrases works.

[languid kayak]

Sidebar works just like that, you slap /xx after it (only admin can add those though)

Sitenotice doesn't seem to work that way

[swift warren]

But I don't see sidebar use those pages like using a template.

[languid kayak]

oh yeah, for sidebar it's not slapping sidebar/pl either; it's each entry being translated, see https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:AllPages?from=&to=&namespace=8

[swift warren]

I see. But in Sidebar, it does not link to slapping pages like Bug-reports/nl, so I don't get how it works.

[languid kayak]

slapping was an informal term here 😄 Sorry for confusion. Anyway, when it comes to translating sidebar, if you want to know the technical background, it's explained here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Interface/Sidebar/en#Translations

It's a little convoluted, however it has to be done by admins anyway (interface admins to be precise), so that's why Vaileasys made them in .txt like that: #pzwiki_editing message

In future, maybe we'll come with a better way to translate interface elements, but for now only sidebar is to be translated and maybe some messages (but these pull their translations mostly from https://translatewiki.net/ and if nothing's different on the PZwiki, they are there).

[languid kayak]

OK, I updated the help pages now:
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents was shuffled and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Tutorial_navigation have had its links updated to include only the PZwiki stuff, while each of the PZwiki pages (most notable the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Editing_for_beginners) now properly point to appropriate MediaWiki pages via the {{Main}} template or links.

I marked the not needed pages for deletion in https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Pages_requested_for_deletion for at least a few days or so but I doubt there's anything lost on them.

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Tables is written now – the basic syntax is copied from MediaWiki (except translation marks and minor formatting) and followed by PZwiki-exclusive table class examples. I thought about copying some more stock MediaWiki exmaples, but that'd be duplicating info and the article already points to it to {{Main}}

Pinging mostly @swift warren and @digital helm, but if anyone have any feedback, do let me know!

Now the next thing would be to probably adding a translation guide and related materials and maybe finally move the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Things_to_do to somewhere more useful.

[swift warren]

Maybe we should redesign the Contents page as I see the links of PZwiki help pages are the same as Tutorial navigation. And the tables are not aligned because the count of links changed. However, I don't have a good idea yet.

[swift warren]

Seems that there is a page that needs to replace underline with a space.

@languid kayak I redesign the Tutorial navigation template on zh-hans (generally remove some extra table tags to shorten the code) and maybe the source page can be improved like this.

[swift warren]

@languid kayak And here is a new design I thought up. I remove the help pages table and add some minor changes to adjust the style. As Chinese characters are shorter, it may seem a little empty. But when replace them with English, everything will be fine(I guess).

[languid kayak]

The links are different, though the nav appears on each of the subsites too. Can remove the navigation from contents actually 🤔. As far as not aligning, is it a huge problem? Can probably be changed with some CSS probably, but it will change in future if I add translation guide or move things to do somewhere

[languid kayak]

you mean in file names? Or where? Files narmes are 1 to 1 as they are extracted, that's why there's underline there. Or do you mean the page being linked from elsewhere?

[languid kayak]

I'm taking a quick look now, but did you change anything visible or just code? I think you added align=center style="font-size:14px;border-collapse:separate;border-spacing:8px;?

I thought about unifying the navboxes a little, for example https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Items_nav name is totally different (and they look the same), but I generally was occupied with things other than templates 😄

It would be part of https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Navigation_and_Categories I guess.

[swift warren]

No, just something can be done incidentally. So I only remove the PZwiki help pages table and add some style to align the content.

[languid kayak]

I removed the navbox from https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents - seems it's not needed indeed 🙂

[swift warren]

The url of that page is Style_guide but other pages in help namespace are all seperated with space, so maybe we can make them consist?

[swift warren]

Actually I feel a little uncomfortable because those tables' borders are not aligned😕. That's why I did that. But if it is still in progress, I suggest add a notice on it.

[swift warren]

Not something visible. But the previous code has nested table tags, which is no need and can be removed. So I did that and preserve the interface, which means shorten the code.

[swift warren]

I translated first three help pages just now. And I find some small bugs on templates that needs fix:

• Using Header template in a language subpage will add a language name at the end of version. It seems that I've mentioned this issue before but you didn't resolve it, so I have to mention it again.
• Using Infobox normal template in a language subpage will also add a language name on its title. I haven't edited pages with this template before so I don't know whether it only occur on this page or all pages with this template.

Add last I think maybe VersionNotice template maybe also need to update translation method like Languages or other templates that calls different template subpage in different language pages.

VersionNotice template seems can inherit from Noticebox template which will add a box instead of just a sentense.

[swift warren]

Seems that the language bar has some bug in the language policy page?

[languid kayak]

Yeah, that's why "English" page links to the very same page and MediaWiki by default make the page linked [[Bold]]. I noticed that too, but not sure if it's really that of an issue for this page alone 🤔

[languid kayak]

I went an extra mile and changed the HTML to wikitext; I guess that's preferred? (and the source code is slimmer too), I changed some things based on what I wrote in https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Style_guide#Preferred_code_style though I'm not yet sure about the empty lines in templates? Guess it'll fit what's written in the style guide and it doesn't result in any newlines, though it would have to be adjusted for all other templates 🤔. I also noticed you use the <!-- --> comments to force it on the new line, not sure if it makes it much clearer?

And I now get what you meant about the _ in the style guide 😛 https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:Tutorial_navigation/zh-hans&curid=26821&diff=140137&oldid=140127 but it was only in hans I guess

[digital helm]

Something that's included in the new infobox. Just need to get around to finishing it, and checking for any issues. https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:Vaileasys/sandbox

[digital helm]

I thought about this eventually linking to a translation tutorial page

[swift warren]

Actually I mentioned this because the icon and the link are not in the same line.

[swift warren]

In templates, all empty lines and spaces bracketed in {{}} at the begin or the end of it will be ignored(also valid for parameters in templates), so it's ok to add empty lines on them as long as you add them on the right position. This is what I see before on MediaWiki but sorry I forget the URL.
However, in common html tags, unless it's table and something with a fixed formatting, all the empty lines are not ignored especially for nested tags like: <div>\n\t<span>write something...<span>\n</div>. BUT, if you removed the \t in the example I used before, it seems works correctly. I think maybe the reason is the indent formatting rule in wikitext. every indent is not ignored so if you used \t in the template, the indent along with the empty line beside it would not be ignored.
That's why I use the comments to force it on the new line. For short code it may not so useful, but when the code is quite long and has several nested tags in it, I believe even the editor who wrote it will not clarify the structure at a glance.

[swift warren]

BTW, I tested before and the button class in each cell can be removed.

[swift warren]

As I'm translating pages, I found that I'm always doing something repetitively. Here is what I'm doing:
When translating a page that needs a link to other pages which is also a zh-hans page, I will use a link like [[page name/zh-hans|translation name]]. BUT, most of the time I also need a correct page name displayed on the linked page which uses DISPLAYTITLE magic word to ensure I use the correct translation. So I have to visit that page and find the correct page name then add it to translation name.
As I found this problem, I thought up a template named check title which will check whether the page has a display title and return it. However, it will not return the link to the page I type in. And if used it then the code would be [[page name|{{Check title|page name}}]], which is not quite long but I suggest the check title template can add a parameter to be allowed to return the link or, if possible, can create a new template specifically for this function.

[digital helm]

I might be misunderstanding, but if you just use [[page name/zh-hans]] it should display as the displaytitle of that page you're linking to, if it has one, otherwise it'll display "page name/zh-hans". So translation name would only need to be used if you need something different to the displaytitle or the page doesn't have a displaytitle.

[swift warren]

OK, I will give it a try later.

[swift warren]

It works! It will save more steps on my translating work.

Can tables like this can be called by a css class or a template? I see many tables are displayed like this one:

• black background on the first line, with big font size and text aligned on the center
• the main text area is in a brown background

[languid kayak]

Probably can add it to common.css, I also thought about it 🤔

[slate crown]

Hello, im not a wiki editor but I saw that the military backpack is outdated and wanted to alert you guys

Thank you for everything you do!

[swift warren]

I wonder whether the tasks page needs a translation. It has a language bar but the content of this page are always edited by admins and seems changing frequently.

[languid kayak]

Yeah, might as well remove the bar, similar how projects don't have it 🤔

It originated that https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Things_to_do had it too – I'm thinking of clearinig it a little and moving it as is to help pages (just change the formatting to fit wit it) so it will fit. Ten add translation gudie and I think it'll be everything that's in Help: pages.

[languid kayak]

You can always be one though! 😄 You can see pinned message by RIDAI on how fast it is! Either way, thank you for the report nevertheless!

[swift warren]

@languid kayak I see you editing pages on both English page and other pages and I think if it's not a minor change you can just add an Outdated notice on other pages so that you can pay more attention on editing English page. (just a suggestion)

[languid kayak]

I actually did that today: https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Occupation/ko&diff=140335&oldid=116485

😛

I only know English and Polish on advanced enough levels to be able to correct them substantively, but I do correct the formatting when I update image links or so

It's mostly the images I want to replace, as I want to remove the old/duplicated ones.

(and there's a lot of them; then to properly categorize them following the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Navigation_and_Categories)

[languid kayak]

Okay, I moved the things to do to Help:Content now and added translation page; see https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents and feel free to contribute to https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Translations (it's not protected, if you want to add something). @digital helm @swift warren

[vestal lily]

Hey do I just enter the wiki and start translating it or is there a specific way

I read the tutorial

Okay I'll hopefully update and help with the translation of the Arabic wiki!

Very. Ook

Cool*

[swift warren]

@languid kayak This section has been discussed with Vaileasys before. There is no need to add translation to the link if the page has a DISPLAYTITLE magic word(see the chat history above).

Due to my poor English level, I think it's better to give you advice instead of editing page directly.🙂

[languid kayak]

Arabic main page and backbones needs to be added, but feel free to start translating by adding /ar, e.g. https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page/ar

see https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&uselang=ar or change language for Arabic how it looks like.

Also, since there's no Arabic in-game for technical reasons, guess you are free to use whatever you want for translations 😛

[swift warren]

And I'll translate those pages later.(after the content is completed)

[languid kayak]

Oh yeah, I thought about it too. I added these to the main pages, but technically you are right. However, without displaylink on the main pages it won't show anything 🤔

[swift warren]

It would show the raw link if without displaytitle.

[vestal lily]

Thanks! And hopefully there will be Arabic in the game (I'm supposed to do that too but my laptop is broken for the time being)

[swift warren]

But I think adding a displaytitle to most pages that needs to be translated is neccessary.

[languid kayak]

I guess there will, if the game will support RTL someday 🤔. Wiki support RTL fine though 👌

[languid kayak]

Yeah, I guess it's mostly the issue for redlinks… @digital helm thoughts? Should we skip |Translation altogether to let {{DISPLAYTITLE}} do its magic? Do we skip it always, or only when page is created? If so, I should update the main pages, e.g. https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Template:MainPage_Gameplay/pl&action=edit

[swift warren]

Because adding a displaytitle can not only translate the page title but also shorten the code from such as [[Item/zh-hans|物品]] to just [[Item/zh-hans]]. If the Item page are linked into many articles and many translators may don't have a consist translation(except for {{Translation}} database), it would lead to a translation mess.

[languid kayak]

I know, it's just if we want to rely on it – I was thinking about it, but it's a nonstandard for PZwiki, but if it's working we might as well use it, unless it slows down page load time by querying it (I doubt).

The only question then are non-existing redlinks, e.g. the ones on the main page – I guess the pipes should be added for them until they are created, and then after creation (and adding DISPLAYTITLE), remove the pipe?

[swift warren]

I see... Seems it will be more complex to maintain the page.

I think maybe we can use check title template to check whether the page has a DISPLAYTTILE, but it seems still a little complex for coding.

[languid kayak]

Well, each non-English page is supposed to have DISPLAYTITLE anyway, so it's not needed. It's just an issue for non-existing (red) pages. To have them on mainpage, each one would have to be created… Technically this can be done too; an empty page with {{DISPLAYNAME}} and {{Stub}}, I kept a few of them for other languages🤔

Maybe that would even ease up creating those pages for other folks?

[swift warren]

You may misunderstand my meaning, I think we can use code like [[Item/zh-hans{{Check title|Item/zh-hans|false={{!}}Translation}}]].

If the link is red, then it wouldn't have a displaytitle, using check title it would return false, then we can use local translation as a backup.

[languid kayak]

oh, true. I forgot about translation database indeed. I am worried it might add some extra complication though? But not sure 🤔

[swift warren]

I think yes. But it surly can make the translation consist and easier to maintain for translators. Maybe the best way is what I mentioned before: creating a new template for this function. Of course this needs Vaileasys opinion.

[swift warren]

This section uses code block maybe look better.

Can this italic words be linked to the category page?

The discord can add a link, too. And it's ask us in Discord or ask our Discord right?

[swift warren]

I try to redesign the Tutorial navigation and here is the code. With this template there is no need to add languages code to it as it checks each page's title and shows it.

[spiral crystal]

โครงการชุมชน =
ดูและเข้าร่วมโครงการบนวิกิ =
งานของวิกิ =
ดู,ตัดต่อ,และช่วยกับงานต่างๆบนวิกิ =
กฎเกณฑ์วิกิ =
กฎที่ต้องทำตามเมื่อตัดต่อวิกิ =
ช่วยด้านการตัดต่อ =
ช่วยกับการสร้างและตัดต่อหน้าต่างๆบนวิกิ =
สไตล์ที่ควรทำตาม =
กฎเกณฑ์ใว้ให้สไตล์วิกิตรงกัน =

<!-- โปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์ -->
โปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์ =
เว็บไซต์ =
เว็บไซต์ของโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์ =
ฟอรัม =
ฟอรัมชุมชนทางการ =
รายงานบั๊ก =
รายงานบั๊กต่างๆที่พบเจอ =
ประวัติบิลด์ =
ดูการพัฒนาและบิลด์เวอร์ชั่นต่างๆอย่างทางการ =
แผนที่ =
แผนที่ทางการของโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์ =
ดิสคอร์ด =
เข้าร่วมเซิร์ฟเวอร์ดิสคอร์ดทางการของผู้พัฒนา =
เรดดิต =
เข้าร่วมกับชุมชนที่เรดดิต =
เฟสบุค =
ดูเฟสบุคทางการของโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์ =
ทวิตเตอร์ =
ติดตามผู้พัฒนาบนทวิตเตอร์เพื่อข่าวล่าสุด =
ยูทูป =
ดูช่องยูทูปทางการของผู้พัฒนา =
ทวิตช์ =
ดูสตรีมสดเกมโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์บนทวิตช์ =

(Ps I’m not too sure you can have Riku reread it)

[languid kayak]

What HTML tag is it though? Cause <pre> skils formatting

[languid kayak]

At worst it can be fixed later 🙂 I'll add it when I'll have a moment

[languid kayak]

Actually, the new subpage template was never added to the templates 🤔. Gotta ask @digital helm when he will have some time what does he think; does it contribute to the template limit or not?

Though while universal, I don't mind slapping xx code afterwards; probably quicker to type, and less prone for typos/making it wrong 😛

[swift warren]

just add two spaces at the start of each line is ok.

instead of :.

[swift warren]

As less to type is always better for editors. They need to concern less and type in a simpler way. I think using all templates without language code and the template can be translated automatically is a goal (for me at least) to improve them.

Surly I won't apply it until Vaileasys gives his opinion, but once I have an idea, I think it's better to type here.

[languid kayak]

Forgot about it, thanks! Didn't want to spend too much time looking for it so in the end I used the : indents, but works better indeed :).

P.S. Just one space is fine, at the beginning of the line; it's also why in MediaWiki indentation can sometimes lead into troubles, as with Python 😄

[languid kayak]

{{Subpage}} is a relatively new template, I never wrapped my head around all the intricacies of the tempalated; it originated when {{T}} and was giving too much of queries,

Might not be so bad of an idea indeed, as it indeed only have to be typed once and not bothered with later on, though all the updated would have to be adjusted slowly (or with bots).

[swift warren]

I see because the wiki added other languages' support recently. In my mind this wiki is far from completion, so many big changes maybe neccessary(probably good or bad changes).

[pallid cave]

I appreciate your willingness to help, but there is a lot of improvement needed

We might need to set up translation guidelines for each language

@languid kayak Is there a translation guideline page?

[swift warren]

Here https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Translations.

Maybe extra translation guideline can be added in each translated help pages.

[languid kayak]

yeah, what Vibrance wrote; freshly written 😄 Might be a little rough and not 100% final, but should give some glimpse

[pallid cave]

Fair enough. I'll edit that page soon.

[languid kayak]

I should also link the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Style_guide#Translations as they contains a little bit info; I'll find a place to link it here

[spiral crystal]

Yes sir/madam

[pallid cave]

You can go on working on another page

I'll correct the sidebar

[swift warren]

@languid kayak I redesigned community portal page in zh-hans.
Here is the main difference. I use flex container instead of table so that it'll look better.

[pallid cave]

There are guidelines that I use for game translation, but they're not specific to PZ. I'll edit and put the guidelines on the wiki page

[languid kayak]

Might be a good idea; I'll take a look, if not today then later 👌

[swift warren]

Why does the output of {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} is only 6?🤔 I see many users have editing operation in last 30 days, why aren't they taking into count?

[restive adder]

Looks potentially like an old bug https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T140079

[swift warren]

Seems doesn't have a good solution yet.

[languid kayak]

Took a quick brief look, will take a second one later, but, only server admins can update that variable? I'll take a look later at that

[restive adder]

No, it’s supposed to update automatically via the inbuilt maintenance job queue. It’s not due to a bug. Might be able to use the workaround via cron

Will look at it later

[last comet]

how do i add textures to placed sprite

I've been looking for the placed sprites folder for hours and I can't find it :c

[pallid cave]

@languid kayak @spiral crystal /th sidebar

โครงการของชุมชน =
ดูและมีส่วนร่วมกับโครงการบนวิกินี้ =
งานวิกิ =
ดู แก้ไข และช่วยเหลืองานบนวิกินี้ =
กฎวิกิ =
แนวปฏิบัติในการแก้ไขวิกิ =
วิธีการแก้ไข =
คำแนะนำในการสร้างและแก้ไขหน้าวิกิ =
แนวทางอ้างอิง =
แนวทางการแก้ไขเพื่อให้วิกิมีความคงเส้นคงวา =
โปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์ =
เว็บไซต์ =
เว็บไซต์โปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์ =
ฟอรัม =
ฟอรัมชุมชนทางการ =
รายงานบั๊ก =
รายงานข้อบกพร่องของเกมที่คุณพบที่นี่ =
ประวัติบิลด์ =
ดูหน้าสถานะทางการและประวัติบิลด์ =
แผนที่ =
แผนที่เกมทางการของโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์  =
Discord =
เข้าร่วมเซิร์ฟเวอร์ Discord ทางการของ The Indie Stone Discord =
Reddit =
เข้าร่วมชุมชนบน Reddit =
Facebook =
ดู Facebook ทางการของโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์  =
Twitter =
ติดตาม The Indie Stone บน Twitter เพื่อรับข่าวสารล่าสุด =
YouTube =
ดูช่อง YouTube ทางการของ Indie Stone =
Twitch =
ดูสตรีมเกมโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์แบบสดบน Twitch =

Twitter might have to be changed to 𝕏

[swift warren]

I think the format should be like Community projects = โครงการของชุมชน instead of โครงการของชุมชน = in Translation page. 🤔 Anyway the admin can recognize it.

[pallid cave]

whoops

[spiral crystal]

Ohhhhh

[pallid cave]

Community projects = โครงการของชุมชน
View and participate in projects on the wiki = ดูและมีส่วนร่วมกับโครงการบนวิกินี้
Wiki tasks = งานวิกิ
View, edit, and help with the current tasks being worked on the wiki = ดู แก้ไข และช่วยเหลืองานบนวิกินี้
Wiki rules = กฎวิกิ
Rules to follow when editing the wiki = แนวปฏิบัติในการแก้ไขวิกิ
Editing help = วิธีการแก้ไข
Help with creating and editing pages on the wiki = คำแนะนำในการสร้างและแก้ไขหน้าวิกิ
Style guide = แนวทางอ้างอิง
Guidelines to keeping the wiki consistent = แนวทางการแก้ไขเพื่อให้วิกิมีความคงเส้นคงวา
Project Zomboid = โปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์
Website = เว็บไซต์
The Project Zomboid website = เว็บไซต์โปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์
Forums = ฟอรัม
The official community forums = ฟอรัมชุมชนทางการ
Bug reports = รายงานบั๊ก
Report any bugs you encounter here = รายงานข้อบกพร่องของเกมที่คุณพบที่นี่
Build history = ประวัติบิลด์
View official Status and Build History page = ดูหน้าสถานะทางการและประวัติบิลด์
Map = แผนที่
Official Project Zomboid map = แผนที่เกมทางการของโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์
Discord = Discord
Join official The Indie Stone Discord server = เข้าร่วมเซิร์ฟเวอร์ Discord ทางการของ The Indie Stone
Reddit = Reddit
Join the community on Reddit = เข้าร่วมชุมชนบน Reddit
Facebook = Facebook
View official Project Zomboid Facebook = ดู Facebook ทางการของโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์
Twitter = Twitter
Follow The Indie Stone on Twitter for the latest news = ติดตาม The Indie Stone บน Twitter เพื่อรับข่าวสารล่าสุด
YouTube = YouTube
View official Indie Stone YouTube channel = ดูช่อง YouTube ทางการของ Indie Stone
Twitch = Twitch
Watch live streamers of Project Zomboid on Twitch = ดูสตรีมเกมโปรเจกต์ซอมบอยด์แบบสดบน Twitch

[languid kayak]

yeah, we had that discussion with Vaileasys already 😄 But it stays a bird for a while still

[languid kayak]

Okay, should be all there now, see https://pzwiki.net/?uselang=th and let me know if you spotted any typos; also pinging @spiral crystal 🙂

[spiral crystal]

Wow

[swift warren]

I'm translating category pages and I found the Lore category is not contained in the Main navigation table. Is it not needed or just hasn't been contained yet?

[swift warren]

I wonder why those User box templates can be merged? 🤔 e.g. In User language, the template can provide a parameter for the language code then display different sentences and images. Many other templates can be merged like this, too. And because they all inherit from Userbox-level, it's not so hard to do this technically.
Not such an important thing, but you can take this into consideration.

@languid kayak Maybe the tasks page should add to protection as it seems that others are not allowed to edit it in it's talk page.

[languid kayak]

Itight be protected, but might be worth unprotwcting it of it is, we don't really aee vandalism on thosw

i:ll take a lokk when I'll be on pc soon

[swift warren]

In that case maybe other important pages are not needed to be protected, too. As long as you believe nobody will vandalism on them.

[languid kayak]

I'll take a look

[languid kayak]

They should though? It's not protected: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki_talk:Tasks

Here are the protected pages; could either add some regional main pages to semi-protected, or actually remove them, as spam is less likely than preventing new users from translating 😄 https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:ProtectedPages

[languid kayak]

Wikipedia have them separate too, so dunno

Nobody took care for Wikipedia though, I guess. Plus they translate stuff differently, they have wiki farms with regional wikis, each with their own set of admins and policies, something not really feasibly for PZwiki

[languid kayak]

Categories are heavy WIP by @digital helm though it's a tasking task, so he's taking a break. There's a WIP category tree that was teased here in the Discord once, I'll ask if that's something we can consult if you'd want to help. For now, take a look at the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Navigation_and_Categories

[swift warren]

I see the main framework has done virtually. There are only some small improvements to be done probably.

[languid kayak]

Yeah, and actual implementation of things 😄

Depending on how much time I'll have during weekend, I'll try to remove the duplicate images as even if it's low priority, I want to have it done, and start properly categorizing them, we have some few left https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Tasks#Low_priority

But probably the new item infobox and categories are of higher priority, so depends how much Vai will have https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Tasks#High_priority

[swift warren]

Maybe you can move it to High_priority, then you will have a good reason to finish it.😝

[swift warren]

Can I see what css classes the wiki can be used in? If I can then how?

[restive adder]

@swift warren @languid kayak NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS is now updated automatically once a month, and is currently 56

[languid kayak]

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:CreateAccount 57 now 😛

[swift warren]

Guys, I find that Chinese players just released their first (as I know it is the first) wiki site !

In the comments of the video where they introduce their wiki, many players don't even know the official wiki has added multi-language support. 😂

[spiral crystal]

What

[digital helm]

I think the style guide can be fairly loose with this. Redlinks should ideally have the translated title, so it can still be read by readers, especially if they don't know English. If it's not a redlink, omitting the title (|translation) would be fine, so long as it makes grammatical sense, and it has a displaytitle.

[swift warren]

@digital helm I browsed the images in the game data. How about using map icon in front of the Header template?

[digital helm]

Thanks, I've added this to the English one

[digital helm]

That could work. May use the item icon though. @languid kayak happy with that change to the header template?

[swift warren]

@digital helm Notice that Header template needs to be fixed in case you forget it.

[digital helm]

remind me, what about it needs to be fixed?

[swift warren]

The version parameter will add language code when used in other language pages.

[digital helm]

should be fixed. Any idea why some pages have the version being called twice? Once for "Version" and again for "Version/xx" e.g. https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Bandage/zh-hant

[swift warren]

It uses https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:Retrieved this template.

Category with language code is the correct one.

[digital helm]

ah, thank you. Another one for the list

[languid kayak]

You can link them with the https://pzwiki.net/?uselang=zh-hans – most stuff should be Chinese out of the box then

But I know that different sites are often popular in China 🤔.

It's not a mediawiki software like the FANDOM, folks might be more used to that :/

[languid kayak]

I might update the main pages if I'll have time, though it's like really low priority (though easy, just time consuimg job) 😛

[languid kayak]

Sure; the item image just differs in outline?

[swift warren]

However, they think the official wiki sometimes cannot visit and most of the info here are outdated(due to version41 maybe).🤔

The DNS in China, you know, kind of weird. It's not their fault.

[languid kayak]

thought about looking at it too :D. There's another template that adds version; forgot the name

[swift warren]

I think the task list should be updated with the Vaileasys work doing?

[languid kayak]

Some sadly is though 😩. I should get to updating everything, ideally after we'll be done with categorization and items, I'm kinda delaying it getting occupied with other stuff lol.

Though before build 41, back when I wasn't an adming I had the furniture project… that's up to be updated too 😄 But items first I guess

[languid kayak]

what kind of work? The infobox is there and the categories are part of https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Navigation_and_Categories

I recetly added link to projects in tasks, though maybe I should think of a way to highligt more stuff that are part of the projects 🤔. I don't want the tasks to be too ig and needlessly repeat stuff that belongs to the projects.

I even though of setting a separate project for image cleanups and optimizatiions I'm doing (extracting, removing duplicates, categorizing, optimizing…) but that'd require setting a whole new project

[swift warren]

idk, but some work is being done by him, so maybe it needs some progress.

[swift warren]

Do it if you cannot handle it in a short period(maybe about a week).

[languid kayak]

yeah, though setting a project takes time too :D. And I'd have to come up with a name and a color scheme 😛

[digital helm]

just added Subpage template to it, so it categorises the page versions properly. May need a closer look for translating

[swift warren]

However there are not so many editors for you to the new project. So the tasks is being done yourself even without the project.

[digital helm]

I finally got around to doing these 3 pages.
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Wild_Plants
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Medicinal_Plants
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Wild_Herbs

Still more foraging categories to do, like "Animals", "Berries", "Vegetables", "ForestRarities", "Trash", "Junk". But they can be done another day

[languid kayak]

I like such pages; easier to transclude and better for SEO/links on the main page 😛

[digital helm]

Anything that you plan on doing yourself, I'd suggest not being as a project. Unless it's a major task that will need input, etc.

[swift warren]

BTW, the Categorize task. How is the progress?

[languid kayak]

good point too

[digital helm]

It's been on the back burner for a bit. Here is the status as of 22/7/23. Only minor changes since then. Blue is completed categories.

will need to open in browser to view

[swift warren]

Hard to image what it will be look like in navigation table. Seems can be quite a long table.

[languid kayak]

I once (think 10+ years ago) took a look at soft that automatically generate navigation-table alike from existing categories; not sure how feasible it is.

[swift warren]

But it seems that we need a customized table instead of just a list of categories.

[digital helm]

Probably won't be a table due to the complexity. May be something like this https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User:Vaileasys/sandbox_3

[swift warren]

It doesn't look intuitive because of too many subcategories here.

However, I don't have a better resolution.😔

I come up with a resolution like this.

[swift warren]

maybe this ?

[dusk yew]

Hey y'all- was doing some editing of food pages, and moved from nonspoiling items to spoiling ones.... and realized I have no idea where to find that info since its not included in the item, just time to rot. Since I couldn't find the dang thing, I made formula that seems to work to reverse engineer it? Fresh x .75 = Stale and (Fresh x .75)/1.75 = Rotten. But that's way more bootleg than I'm comfortable with slapping on the wiki without the green light. Does anybody know the official equation, or at least where I can find spoilage info in the game files? Thanks!

[restive adder]

It’s a bundled extension so I’m less worried/annoyed about using it if it’d be useful, not as significantly irritating to upkeep

[tough depot]

Hey guys was drawers supposed to be here?

[digital helm]

Initially it was. I can see how it doesn't quite fit. Not sure if there's anywhere else it'll fit in the "items" pages.

[digital helm]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If you mean the hunger. I've done similar to work it out as:
bh = base hunger
Stale 0.75 x bh
Rotten 0.425 x bh
Cooked 1.3 x bh
Burnt 0.325 x bh
rounding down

I've been meaning to incorporate it into the Consumables template

[digital helm]

I'm struggling to visualise what you mean 🤔

[digital helm]

This would be good. I wasn't sure if the benefits would be worth the maintenance. But if Kirrus is happy with it 👍
It's essentially what I tried to simulate in that sandbox

[swift warren]

In wikitext it's hard to meet your need. Maybe only with jquery and other scripts have a better solution.

[swift warren]

Forget it. I prefer the extension. 😂

[tough depot]

Perhaps it should be only here?
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Crafting_(carpentry)

[swift warren]

@digital helm I see the documentation subpage template and find that there are so many parameters used in this template but we just use the default one. So maybe the template can be simplified and the documentation needs to be updated.
Also I think this template can be auto-translated into other languages.

[digital helm]

the extension is my preference as well. Remove the table altogether. May end up doing something simple for now though. Only go a few layers deep, 3. E.g. Main > Project Zomboid > Items. Gets messy beyond that

[digital helm]

what do you mean by auto-translated?

[swift warren]

Like most notice templates do. It can display different text in different language pages.

[digital helm]

I get ya. Thought maybe there was a way to magically translate everything 😛 that'd be nice

[digital helm]

I agree though, we won't need the added complexity. It was likely copied from wikipedia or similar. Feel free to shorten it and save the changes - it's low visibility. Otherwise I'll take a look when I come to it.

[swift warren]

I see the template in Wikipedia and I also have no idea why they get it so complex.

[swift warren]

That's what I mentioned before. There is an extension or something that allows editors to translate the page and not be concerned about the code.

[swift warren]

I try to redesign the Help:Contents page and maybe this can be used in English page, which looks better than before (in my eye).

[dusk yew]

I did mean the hunger, so this is perfect, thank you! I’ll use these formulas from here on out.

[tough depot]

Guys what do you think about adding:
UI_LootInfo = " <CENTRE> SIZE:medium This is the Loot Panel. <LINE> <LINE> SIZE:small <LEFT> The Loot Panel shows every container and cupboard within arm's reach of your character. Clicking on each will reveal the items inside. <LINE> <LINE> Items that have been placed nearby on the floor will also be visible. <LINE> <LINE> Clicking "Loot All" will move all the contents of a container into your inventory. You can also drag and drop stacks of items.", ||https://github.com/TheIndieStone/ProjectZomboidTranslations/blob/master/EN/UI_EN.txt||
to the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Containers#Container_window 2|3?

[tough depot]

something is wrong in here

[digital helm]

Hoping to eventually have these calculations incorporated into the consumables template

[digital helm]

I don't see an issue with adding that

[digital helm]

fixed, thanks. The "Container" heading was on the same line as the <noinclude> tag, so it was recognised as being on the same line as the "Equipment" heading

[tough depot]

ok

[tough depot]

what is the difference between a warehouse and a storage unit?
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Containers#Crates

(IRL)

[digital helm]

I'd consider a warehouse a larger standalone building. Whereas a storage unit is a complex with many storage units.

warehouse

storage unit

[snow moth]

the knitting needles item is listed as "Baseball" under the code section when it should be "KnittingNeedles"

[tough depot]

oh, ok ty, in portuguese they end up being all the same

[digital helm]

Thanks, I've fixed and updated to build 41

[languid kayak]

There are two properties, days_fresh (Days until stale) and days_rotten (Days until rotten), there's no set formula where things go stale and fresh, they just follow those in days unless refridgerated/frozen (then it stops time passing for the purpose of this calculations by 5 and 50 respectively).

You can find the properties in the txt files in scripts, these should be under code in the wiki, too.

[languid kayak]

yeah, I thought so, I'll probably do the same for English 🙂

[languid kayak]

I'll fix it later, unless you want to do it yourself, shouldn't be hard 🙂

[languid kayak]

yeah, sometime's like that when translating. 😩 Depending on context you can add "small" or just something in parantheses to distinguish them.

BTW, I wonder if https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User_talk:Ikip was supposed to be a new page? Romero center for the proforming arts (except for typo) is a location in the game.

I don't think Ikip's here on the Discord by a chance?

[languid kayak]

@tough depot Thanks for the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Template:AutoT template! I believe it will be mostly used on non-English pages, but just in case it will be used on English to translate some materials FROM another language TO English, I adjusted the wording in the English page. Hopefully it's fine that way? I tried to make it clear that it could be used both ways (as I see no reason for itnot to?)

[languid kayak]

@tough depot don't bother translating too much in categories with images like https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Category:Tools/pt-br as they will be changed anyway during https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Navigation_and_Categories – we talked with @digital helm and the icons will probably be removed as they are too much of a mainteneance burden and the pages instead of categories should be used for that 😛

It's all long overdue, but will take time, along with the new item infobox

https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Floor_tiles reminds me I get to go to tiles someday 😩. Though ideally items and some remaining mainteneance tasks would be best to have sorted out first. I was thinking, maybe it should be moved to https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Tile (it currently redirects to https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Tiles) and describe a mechanic of what a tile is in game perspective? As indeed, everything in-game seems to be tile-based (hearing/seeing range, generator range, storage capacity etc.)

[languid kayak]

Done now, English page is using the layout you made, seems more concise 😛

While at it, I also did some minor fixes to CSS formatting in both languages and added IDs to chinese, so you can link directly to sections, e.g., https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents/zh-hans#基础指南 and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Contents/zh-hans#进阶指南

If you'll make any CSS tweaks, feel free to ping me, I'll try to back port it to English version, especially for protected pages 😉

[swift warren]

Thank you. However maybe it's better to add English to id instead of add Chinese directly as the link will be strange.

[languid kayak]

Well, the link is only strange because it's converted form Unicode – you can link it direclty via browser:

Isn't so noticable on destkop, but might help on mobile 😄

or when you just want to point directly to a section

[restive adder]

CategoryTree extension is now live @swift warren @digital helm @languid kayak . Let me know if you notice any issues

[languid kayak]

ha, you'll make it to the monthly recap I'm in the middle of writing with that then 😄

[languid kayak]

August 2023 monthly wiki recap is up! Thank you everyone who contributed this month (and will still due in the remaining few days). 🎉
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:News#August_2023

[swift warren]

Seems that all subcategories are auto-transformed into category trees.🤔

In this case we may don't need a navigation table any more.

[languid kayak]

yeah, as Vaileasys said, it'll be just a basic one if at all 🙂

[tough depot]

Oh, ok

[tough depot]

That is what I was thinking
I thought the page already existed, in portuguese I named it as "tiles", (since the "tiles" from main pages I named as "objects")

[languid kayak]

Yeah, tiles as in plural is https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Tiles, Tile (as singular) could be used for that.

We mostly have plural pages (Items, Skills, Vehicles), though some are singular (Player, Zombie, etc…)

[tough depot]

I remember retanaru's channel as having many of these tiles mechanics but I don't know other place to gather info except for testing in game the distances

[restive adder]

Some stuff you can read in the game code, all the Lua controlled stuff is just readable text files iirc

[tough depot]

May I try checking it sometime? Never seen a lua code before 😆

[languid kayak]

you can test ranges in debug modes; there are plethora of useful tools for that

And yeah, most things can be read by analyzing the code, but don't count on me, plus there are some red herrings (things that don't work due to omission, bugs, or were disabled for some reason)

as for the actual tiles properties, these can be inspected in TileZed too

[restive adder]

The #mod_support folk can probably tell you where to look, or just dig around in the game files

[swift warren]

@languid kayak Just notice that this page seems don't need it in case you forget it.

[languid kayak]

Thanks! I think you mentioned it, thanks for remaining – and indeed; no point in translating that page, so I removed it 🙂

(I think the page isn't protected though; maybe it could, but until I see some vanadlism, I don't mind)

[tough vector]

Uuuh sorry if it's not the right thread, but upon entering this discord I opted to be interested in helping with the translation
Are we talking about the wiki or the in game translation?

[restive adder]

This is the wiki channel! The game translations channel is #translations

[swift warren]

@languid kayak I just updated the Items nav template and maybe you can apply it to the English one if no problem.

[pliant imp]

Hey, I saw that there aren't any good pictures of the police stations on the entire map. Would it be okay if I took those pictures and submitted them here? For the gallery

[languid kayak]

sure

you can see the https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Locations_and_Maps for more info too!

[pliant imp]

Thanks I'll submit them when I am done 🙂

[restive adder]

Feel free to add the images to pages! Can ask in here for help, the help pages might be of use as well. The pinned post shows a signup and edit speedrun!

[languid kayak]

Hm, seems like the change from 75 to 100 tiles to trapping got reverted back to 75… Anyone knows which is a correct distance? 75 or 100 tiles for trapping to work? https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Trapping&action=history

[cinder topaz]

100 tiles

[languid kayak]

Gonna correct it back then; unless someone can prove that wrong 😛

[stable pond]

75 tiles, just tested

[pure eagle]

Hello, everyone

[cinder topaz]

Lot of people don’t know then because that’s how I found out.

[stable pond]

yeah that's fair 👍
I think the problem is that nobody was showing evidence, just numbers. I'm not sure where 100 came from

[languid kayak]

Hm, gonna revert back to 75 then? I think it was changed somewhere else back to 100 though

(unless someone already did it; didn't had time to check yesterday)

[languid kayak]

It was this: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/TomSmith, but yours video clearly shows 75 tiles (might argue for mods; but they don't matter in that case)

[stable pond]

ye, just the cheat menu mod and exp mod for testing

and yeah I looked for that stream but it isn't archived so I couldn't see what was done

[fast lodge]

I see the wiki article on the Knox Event fills in blanks for the tweets. Are these additions canon or educated guesses?

[pliant imp]

I don't quite have images yet (For the Police Stations). However, I would like to submit the ones for Fallas Lake and Muldraugh. So, I took pictures of each individual room and labelled them based on what I believed they were.

So, how would I go about submiting them?

[grand owl]

The AEBS station reduces boredom, how could i add that to the wiki?

[digital helm]

It's canon, based on radio and tv transcripts. Here's the article prior to the tweets https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Knox_Event&oldid=117321

[digital helm]

you could include it in the "Usage" section, as a subsection, i.e. ===Effects===
https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Automated_Emergency_Broadcast_System#Usage

[grand owl]

Done

[digital helm]

You can upload them directly to the wiki. Upload the file(s) https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Special:Upload
Then include them on the relevant page(s), e.g. [[File:Image.png|20px|link=Main Page]] https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Images#Rendering_a_single_image

If you want to put them in a gallery format:

{each image in here on a new line}
</gallery>```
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images#Rendering_a_gallery_of_images

[swift warren]

This section may need an example to explain how to add ID to a section.

[restive adder]

Hold off on that for now. Gonna trial the translation extension bundle on a dev copy of the wiki, if it goes well we'll deploy on live

[languid kayak]

Good point, gonna work something out

[languid kayak]

Take a look now: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Translations#Main_page_translations

[languid kayak]

BTW; did minor additons to https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Style_guide#Preferred_code_style too for clarification of what edits I'm doing recently on the food pages 😛

[languid kayak]

BTW, when I'm editing the pages, I guess the preferred way is to use collapsable code for when there's more than one entry, or do we need it at all? Thoughts? https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Canned_Mushroom_Soup#Code

[languid kayak]

Here's the one without expansion: https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Canned_Spaghetti_Bolognese#Code

[swift warren]

Maybe users can skip to the specific section by TOC without collapsing other sections?

[worthy igloo]

(edit: sorry, was replying to a message elsewhere and it ended up here)

[languid kayak]

That'd actually be doable, using IDs even, so you think collapsing here isn't needed too? (I'm not a big fan of collapsable elements TBH, though I get they sometimes are needed)

[naive rock]

So, bit of an odd thing here and Im not sure what to do about it

The weapons page lists the crit growth per aiming level as it is defined in the weapons.txt file

But the formula for actually adding crit to the weapon is

(weapon crit growth * aiming level) / 2 + (aiming level * 3)

Im not sure if I should change this though since technically the current numbers are right, they just aren't applied that way in game

[languid kayak]

ideally it should be possible to fill the values as they are in crit and compute it, it's doable, just no ETA on that sadly 😦

In the meantime, feel free to document it somewhere on the page (the formula that is)

[naive rock]

I could do it? As in, change them manually

unless you meant via a script but I have that too

[signal bough]

From what I remember it checks if any player is near. This area scales with resolution, at least in SP. I think max for v.41.78 was ~130 squares, somebody would need to confirm that.

[languid kayak]

that would explain that… I think some things change with resolution indded. Maybe should be tested better then

[fringe bloom]

I'm pretty sure I found both the sandbox settings in SandboxOptions.lua #pz_b42_chat message and confirmed they are still used in ItemPickerJava.class #pz_b42_chat message. I think we can update the page on Custom Sandbox with that info

[slate crown]

!rank

[clever crypt]

🚫 whitetailwolves, that command is disabled in this channel.

[inner crypt]

Hey, I want to edit the Wiki so the Turkish page isn't completely in English anymore but actually showing it to be Turkish. How can I do this / apply?

[restive adder]

Check out the pinned message 🙂 should be help pages as well

@languid kayak @digital helm not gonna get chance to trial translation plugin for a bit, unwell

[languid kayak]

Turkish is fully supported language, however, the main page and sidebar aren't translated yet, see https://pzwiki.net/wiki/PZwiki:Project_Translations#Turkish and the table above.

For translating the main page, see https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Translations#Main_page_translations and https://pzwiki.net/wiki/Help:Translations#Sidebar_translations respectively; the main page you should be able to do yourself, for sidebar I have to upload them, but you can translate the strings and post it somehere (since you are on Discord, you might as well post them here in any form, as it;s currently manual and an admin have to add it manually which I can do :))

[languid kayak]

No worries; no extra rush with that one! I don't know how much time for bigger undertakings this month anyway; mostly gonna be checking new edits and doing minor edits this month (though a monthly summary is a must have 👌 )

[languid kayak]

I noticed this https://pzwiki.net/w/index.php?title=Skills&diff=prev&oldid=145383 being added but then removed; isn't the skill raising only when near the zombies indeed though?

[languid kayak]

@steady rain are you still down to doing edits for the project locations and map? https://pzwiki.net/wiki/User_talk:Faalagorn#Project_Locations_and_Maps ThinkDock1721 brought up the idea of either him or I guess Ikip taking the leadership, you think it's a good idea?

[steady rain]

Still down to do edits, but life's been hectic. So its prob a good idea for someone else to take the leadership, if they want to. Took it more because noone else was involved at the time 🙂

[languid kayak]

yeah, the project is lively thanks to all of you guys 😄 Well; I sometimes wonder how much we do need "leaders", as it's normal for people to come in go and other things taking matter

[steady rain]

Yeah, I don't take particular ownership in that leadership role 🙂 All I did was create some overview project page because that didn't really exist etc, and add some smaller locations. Just checked the current state of some articles and its looking good I think.
But ya, you, Im looking for new jobs in a different country so PZ sadly hasn't been high priority lately. Hopefully calmer seas await mw haha. Best of luck to whoever makes that part of the wiki better 🙂

[languid kayak]

@naive imp pinging you here as well in case you want to swap with Pohly 😛

There's Ikip too, but I don't think here on Discord