subtlety

[limpid sage]

Does shuriken tornado consume premed?

[open glade]

also is this the way to think about the 4 target black powder vs evis

Eviscerate Black Powder
$653,169.00 $492,000.00
2 target $1,045,070.40 $984,000.00
3 target $1,436,971.80 $1,476,000.00
4 target $1,828,873.20 $1,968,000.00
5 target $2,220,774.60 $2,460,000.00
6 target $2,612,676.00 $2,952,000.00
7 targets $3,004,577.40 $3,444,000.00

or am i not understanding this right

but this looks like at 3 target

black powder is doing more already?

[limpid sage]

I think that’s with find weakness on all 3?

[vagrant fulcrum]

Why are the damage numbers in dollars 😭🤑

[limpid sage]

I think the reason they changes from 3 FW targets to 4 targets is just because the difference is so small

[open glade]

haha i couldn't find the number formatting on this online excel spreadsheet

and i wanted the commas

[open glade]

hmmm

[cinder steppe]

!log

[real hare]

Just how important is keeping rupture up?

[open glade]

halp

i have 1% haste

[warm marlin]

Perfect ur doing great

[cinder steppe]

any gamer got time to look at this plz?

[limpid sage]

It’s your highest dmg finisher, so pretty important

But if you lose 1 or 2 ticks of uptime it’s not the end of the world

[dreamy moat]

what did you think dps meant ?

[vagrant fulcrum]

https://tenor.com/view/gold-goldman-gold-man-india-gold-man-india-gold-gif-3122376008029050460

[sullen yarrow]

any good sub rogue to teach me some tuff

[alpine wraith]

sure man ask away

[sullen yarrow]

im like good at assasination but i dont know anything about sub rogue

and i think i will get stucked in my io

if i dont understand sublety

[lusty epoch]

Go read the wowhead guide first of all

Then try some dummies

Then come back and ask questions

[olive jacinth]

Are there any specific numbers my CDs have to be, before i can start the big damage window? I mean something like "Need atleast 1 charge dance and 40sec cd on next charge..."

[karmic harbor]

1.5 charges of dance and you're good

and 2 sod

[limpid sage]

You can watch shindigs guide on youtube from last season. The core of sub hasn’t changed since then

[frigid prawn]

Can I not macro lily + netherprism + shadowblades together? It seems like I dont get the agi from nether

[hazy knoll]

how worth it is the backstab cast for danse

[limpid sage]

Shared cd of 30 seconds on on-use trinkets

Or 20 I don’t remember

[rose parrot]

How big of a deal is it to use coup with dance?

[karmic harbor]

no you can't

[deft bobcat]

is sub rogue the go spec for raiding?

[karmic harbor]

are you raiding mythic

[deft bobcat]

probably the first few bosses with guild usually

[hazy knoll]

and also, i have dance in the same spot in my stealth bar as my non-stealth bar, iirc it was becaue of some weird interaction in the past, is it safe to change that? (i think it was like, delaying a gcd or someth)

[frigid prawn]

Oh damn okay thx. Is the playstyle then to use lily in first cd, then nether with more stacks and then lily again and continue like that?

[karmic harbor]

assa does better st, on fights with adds sub performs better

but you can play whatever you want!

[olive jacinth]

Bad trinket setup. Would be way easier to handle if you have a passive trinket as second

[karmic harbor]

depends on the fight

[olive jacinth]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[karmic harbor]

huh

checked raidbots sample ability log while having lily/prism equipped

and it just never uses lily

[alpine wraith]

it should use lilly on pull and 1:30 then prism at 3 mins

[olive jacinth]

So with shadowcraft we really cast no finisher before big cd windows because we want it to stack to 14?

[karmic harbor]

ah ye i misread sry

[alpine wraith]

not necessarily

just because statying at high cp and stabbing is better than using a wang evis

and then wasting sht

you will not likely get to 14 but maybe 5 or 6

[olive jacinth]

On wowhead its 10secs before. I tested on dummy, thats enough to get to 10-12

Oh I just realized. We dont do finishers before big damage to get a guarantee coup inside big cd window

Not for shadowcraft stacks

[alpine wraith]

you dont always get coup but you do it anyway

[hazy knoll]

man

stone idol makes everything so complicated

i want to replace this yesterday

[olive jacinth]

Got it in vault as mythic first week

Didnt pick it

[karmic harbor]

i dont play with gimmick trinkets

idc how good they are

[hazy knoll]

its not really a gimmick trinket its just teh cast time making it complicated with sub's gameplay

[karmic harbor]

i nearly quit mid tier having to use treacherous transmitter

[severe prism]

do i press coldblood sectec in the first dance if i have the opportunity to supercharge it ? It feels kinda weird and also since it ends up being at the end of it i don't know if the clones are hitting in the dance window

[sage leaf]

boys i have a questions 1st finishing move after shadow dance has to be secret technique or you can build up danse 1st to do secret tech later?

[wintry holly]

No, always second dance during blades due to higher flawless form stacks making it more valuable.

[wintry holly]

Ideally always first, because then with CDR you can get another in the second dance/later.

[severe prism]

so triple sectech doesn't exist ? i think i've seen it being talked about but it was pbe times 😅

[wintry holly]

Second finisher should be okay. But needs to be with supercharger.

[wintry holly]

Nah, once per dance charge essentially.

And each one of those dance charges will have supercharger from Symbols, and you want to SecTec with supercharger.

[severe prism]

and also do i ever press sectec without anything ? i feel like sometimes i could do it without losing a dance

[dense bloom]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[alpine wraith]

yea if you know what you are doing you can

[tacit pond]

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[wintry holly]

You "can", and its theoretically optimal, but it depends on when you need dances in-between blades CDs, and normally it's hella tight, and can cause a massive fuck-up for a minor gain. A lot of the top logs don't, and only ever use with CDs.

You can have a look at the lorrgs website and filter to SecTec and Dance only to see where their unpaired on a given fight.

It's inconsistently done at best.

[severe prism]

I know it's not usual, but the set gives so much cdr that sometimes i press evisc but it feels like i could easily press sectec instead, the gain is probably so small it's not worth it to gamble it, but it's good to know 🙂

[wintry holly]

Yeah, on like ST, patchwork, no damage amps, no adds, then it's fine, but the driving factor is more like getting more damage by savingdance/SecTec for adds, damage amps, specific burst window requirements, or whatever.

[karmic harbor]

on the top 10 logs of frac, the #3 and #10 use naked sectecs (#10 only does 1) https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/fractillus

[short radish]

yeah

#10 is an idiot

dont copy that guy

[karmic harbor]

yeah he just got super lucky rng, his rotation is pretty bad

[short radish]

like

if youre holding for 40 seconds

i'd maybe send an absolute naked sectech

without symbols

but i did the sectech symbols without dance and then somewhere at 3:xx i had a moment where i was like

man i wish i didnt send a naked symbols sectech

[karmic harbor]

wait

when you vanish

are you meant to backstab or shadowstrike

[short radish]

are you still looking at my log?

[karmic harbor]

yes

[short radish]

fucks sake

[short radish]

^

[karmic harbor]

you also dont use backstab in dance sometimes...

[short radish]

^

[shadow lance]

SS

[short radish]

can you please stop exposing my shit rotation

i pressed vanish into backstab because i pressed vanish too early and was knocked out of stealth because i autoed or took damage

[shadow lance]

bs after vanish is just there for dance macabre stack, Fimb troleld there

[short radish]

and i did dance into shadowstrike because im a moron

[shadow lance]

Seems you trolled twice

[short radish]

PLEASE

STOP

LOOKING

holy shit its so bad

what the fuck why do i never backstab after dance

oh

[late oxide]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[short radish]

no

i know why

because my says that i need find weakness

if FW isnt up

going into dance

even though i know it doesnt matter

[alpine halo]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[limpid sage]

typically you'll be able to send +30 sec before your cds come up again first time

[kind geyser]

Hi guys, I'm trying to learn sub but I have some doubts about the opener: if I don't have The First Dance active and no banked Shadow Tecniques CPs (say the tank chain pulls the boss and I am 'empty') I can't reset SecTec during the first shadow dance and I find myself having to do 1-2 'danceless finishers' before using another dance. Is it normal?

[dusk stone]

you sometimes get it and sometimes dont

which guide is saying you get 2 sectec in 1st dance?

[kind geyser]

No I mean, I can't reset SecTec for the second chained dance

Dance finishes with about 10 secs remaining on SecTec, so I have to use 1-2 finishers before the second dance

instead of chaining them instantly

[dusk stone]

yeah i think you press dance and then symbols when sectec comes up

[karmic harbor]

that's fine

you chain dance, sectec isnt up for the 2nd one

but it comes up eventually

just make sure its supercharged with sod

[dusk stone]

you would chain the dance and symbols for the sectec ye

i just ignore it tbh

so its [dance ends] -> dance -> finisher -> finisher -> symbols -> sectec

[kind geyser]

oh thank you

I thought I was messing up something

[dusk stone]

i just ignore the 2nd sectec and send symbols dance stab sectec

i still parse well

[kind geyser]

If I understood correctly though, I shouldn't send symbols and dance on the same GCD outside the opening of the first dance right?

I should do

GCD 1 -> dance + backstab
GCD 2 -> symbols + sectec

[dusk stone]

in that scenario no

which is why its not adviseable to macro them together

but again for simplicity sake when my dance ends i just symbols/dance -> stab -> sectec -> etc

not optimal but i havent even noticed lol

[kind geyser]

I made a macro to use dance+symbols on the first backstab of the opener only, then macros to to dance+backstab and symbols + sectec for the 'maneinance' part of the rotation

[earnest canyon]

In our burst rotation, i was informed that doing 1. secret tech -> shadow blades vs 2. shadow blades -> secret tech, the damage is minimal difference.
but what about pots / trinkets? before or after secret tech or is the damage diff minimal

[dusk stone]

its ideal to pop your stuff before sectec

right before

[kind geyser]

my main problem right now is managing to press all those different buttons while moving

sometimes the target moves and I lose dance/symbols time because I moved my hand to do the sequence while the tank pulled mobs away

[short radish]

does feint work on banishment (saladbar)

[vale pine]

!def

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Defensive Spreadsheet: > Click to open <

[placid crown]

Hello people. Wondering: the anti-heal poison removes 8% of healing per stack. The talent poison master upgrades non-damages effect of 20%. Then, when i take this talent, the info in-game says that the poison removes 9% per stack. Is it really 9% or is it 8x1.2 = 9.6% ? Then, with 5 stacks, is it 45% or 48% ?

[latent finch]

is there still the sheet where atrophic works and where not?

[marble thistle]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[honest saddle]

let's say I have 4 coup stacks and am at super low energy

if I finish with low energy

its very possible I dont get enough cp to finish 4pc

should I pool energy before the first to guarantee I can get the second

this really only happens outside cds

[random comet]

The irony

[barren ember]

KEKW

[random comet]

I SAW THAT

[barren ember]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[barren ember]

Ok, so the Imgur about Flag & Blades says it, and every guide says it too, but I try to understand why my logic is wrong:
Flag 12 sec of add damage; 12 sec of mastery increase. I assume there is my mistake, but isnt the mastery increase more damage than the damage part?
Shadowblades is 16 seconds, if you use it 4 sec after flagg, u have 4 seconds of mastery increase remaining while shadowblades already ran out

And sometimes, in a multi target environment, I wonder if its not benefical, to just keep spreading ruptures with flaggelation for a few sec, so the entire mastery increase duration covers shadowblade?

[karmic harbor]

flag isn't 2 parts

the first part is just where you gain the buff, but you still benefit from the buff in the first part and it caps very fast

[barren ember]

ah ok

Then I understood the wording wrong, with increase into "persisting after torment fades"

ok cool ty

[turbid edge]

So how many seconds do u have after flag cast before u need to start your blades/dance rotation?

[karmic harbor]

in m+ it can be different, some people flag and then spread rupture before going into dance

[lilac stag]

You really don’t want to do that as it leads to desyncing blades if you’re not careful.

it works if you know the route and will have downtime where they sync back up

[turbid edge]

Yeah I saw some logs where they flag then do 2-3 ruptures before blades

[queen plinth]

do we always backstab after dance for the buff?

danse

and what do we want to craft optimally for raid+m+

weapon with asc and writhing armor banding on wirst?

[vale osprey]

No it'll likely be wrist + neck or something as sub with 2x focussing lens

Wowhead (and all the guides) has all the bis list with slots you'd craft in too

[queen plinth]

even in raid?

[vale osprey]

Yes

[queen plinth]

kk thx

[short radish]

your embelishment is a rounding error in your dps

dont worry about it

[queen plinth]

you guys playing a really fun class ngl

[olive jacinth]

If second sectec is ready again in first dance do we send it there? With another SoD ofcourse

[short radish]

its so chill

you get really high highs

then you relax a bit

then you absolutely blast

[queen plinth]

im maining mage, thought sub is like the perfect match as alt

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[queen plinth]

since we are shaking hands

and the rotation really is simple aswell, i hated it in df

[vale osprey]

Orrrr you send cooldowns then get a mechanic and then you're donezo because you're a bad gamer

[queen plinth]

do we press shiv in st?

öprolly not no

[olive jacinth]

I dont have it on my bars

Because sub has 1 more spell than assa

[hushed seal]

Hey everyone, I’m getting ready to switch from Outlaw to Sub. If I use a crafted sword (720 ilvl) with the right stats in my off-hand, would it be better than a Prodigious Gene Splicer at 710 ilvl?

[karmic harbor]

https://www.raidbots.com

but no i think that'd be a big dps loss using sword

[queen plinth]

do we play 2 on use trinkets?

or is this just the case when we get frac trinket

[short radish]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[short radish]

you're better off using a 550 ilvl dagger

over a 620 ilvl sword

[olive jacinth]

Just craft a Dagger, we got 3 sparks now anways

[hushed seal]

Thanks a lot for the help!

[short radish]

there's no point running cheat death on saladbar is there?

[timber carbon]

is using cold blood for 4p coup de grace worth it?

[short radish]

no

[timber carbon]

why tho, doesnt it deal shit tons

[short radish]

sectech hits more or something

[karmic harbor]

ye im just running elusiveness

[hushed seal]

Another question I have: what's the best way to sim for M+?

[runic trail]

Dungeonslice

[lilac stag]

!oh

[scarlet oyster]

Do we still use backstab in aoe after SD if unseenblade is ready ?

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[tight monolith]

say what you want abt dawnbreaker but all the first dances you get in there as sub goes hard

[short radish]

dawnbreaker my beloved

[queen plinth]

is assa better than sub in some scenarios?

[barren ember]

if you have cognitive overload atm learning mechanics and watching environment assa is better 😄

it for real is a very good prog spec, with consistent damage ofc noone wants to get downtime after having pressed dmg cooldowns (deathmark / kingsbane)

but on assa u survive that, on sub it just ruins ur dmg

And in m# plus id argue, if you do not have any priority damage, it can be beneficial that assa doesnt need to sacrifice prio dmg for aoe and vice versa

on sub u have to decide if u press black powder (or how the aoe finisher is called) or eviscarate

(dont eat me if I say smt wrong, im always open to be corrected, thats just my current understanding)

[queen plinth]

how much gain is like no set to 4 set now

[barren ember]

watch pinned messages :p

[short radish]

!tier

[wicked jolt]

Tier set:
Best Slots: Head, Chest, Hands, Legs
Strength: 2p (~10% dps) | 4p (~20% dps) -> Combined: ~30%.
Note: Try to get the 4set asap.

[tribal blade]

another DB 17 bricked today because of bugs

nobody could see the swirlies on the floor on the pack after 1st boss

whoops i responded to the wrong person

[queen plinth]

yikes

[barren ember]

no u didnt XD

the assa vids on all the bugs made me reconsider as well

[tribal blade]

haha meant to reply to @short radish

[barren ember]

some of the fatbound CDR shit i noticed myself and was confused, then i saw the vids

[tribal blade]

ngl the FB bugs are driving me insane

considering not playing sin on fractilus

[barren ember]

yea

I mean, it might obviously be a skill issue and with shadow step etc u can work against it

But on Sub I was just more annoyed by the knockbacks

While on Assa its kinda whatever

[tribal blade]

yeah i dunno, i'll see when i get there

[short radish]

[short radish]

just play sub

who cares

boss isnt a dps check

[tribal blade]

but what if i can make the yellow bar even higher with the gross spec

[short radish]

the only thing that matters is your parse

and your parse is based on the spec

[tribal blade]

1 thing i know for certain is after fractilus the rest of the tier i'll be playing sub

win

[barren ember]

thats also why i always drop the walls on my guilds safe spot, its better for my parse and for the healer parses

[grizzled sphinx]

!prepull

[wicked jolt]

Pre Pull Cheeses:
Recommended - Supercharge - Using Symbols of Death before pull gives you 2 supercharger charges, this is easy to perform and can be done without any loss given the infinite timer on supercharger.

• Explanation: Only the first 2 stacks of Supercharger don't reset on a boss pull, and you can easily press symbols early enough to have full charges on pull.
  NOT Recommended - Disoriented Strikes - Using Secret Technique gives you disoriented strikes, you can start bosses with the benefits when using Secret before a wipe or on Trash carefully.
• Explanation: Disoriented does not reset on boss pull, but this trick requires a lot of attention and can't be done consistently, so is not recommended.
  Damage Impact: Both Cheeses lead to a bit more than 1% damage gain in a 5 minute Patchwerk simulation.

[grizzled sphinx]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[mossy maple]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[brisk onyx]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[limpid sage]

Happened to me the other day as well

I think it only happens when the swirlies are on the wood?

[tribal blade]

i actually saw it about to happen and popped sprint to book it out of there lol

everyone else died

sad days

[tribal blade]

honestly no idea

[limpid sage]

Ours was a 15 so only 1 died luckily

Everyone hit tho

[tribal blade]

fucking DB and losing those keys on good runs to bugs

is becoming a thing

[limpid sage]

I don’t get the people that voted DB in this season

[tribal blade]

i honestly love DB

it's an amazing sub dungeon

[limpid sage]

Given how disgustingly bugged it was last time as well

[tribal blade]

i always play well in DB

but the bugs are driving me insane

[limpid sage]

Yup the bugs instantly kill all satisfaction I get from that dungeon

[tribal blade]

it's so bad in there that when i joined this pug i got insta "do you remember what happened the last time we were in here prophet?" from the dk in the group

[limpid sage]

Also would be 500 times better if the ships that you fly to would stand still in the air

[short radish]

slightly hot take but i dont think prism is good in dawnbreaker

[tribal blade]

"surely it doesn't bug again"

[short radish]

because you dont hit as much

[limpid sage]

So you don’t get bugs of clipping through the ground on them

[tribal blade]

oh shit

OHHHH

good point

[lavish acorn]

am i missing something - im seeing people do ST, 2x coup, 2x evi into ST again. When i do it im lacking like 7s cdr to do ST again

[short radish]

its like 4-6 stack

[tribal blade]

mmmmmm interesting

[graceful scarab]

Hey Everyone, im new here, i would like some help with rog, im trying to get into rouge and push 3k with for the first time witch talent would you recommend sub or assa for a beginner? I would like to over time master it as much as i can and play both talent in the future but to begin with what would you recommend?(sorry if its the wrong channel for this)

[tribal blade]

my dps is always very high in DB, so the fact that i could possibly get more by playing lily makes me happy

now to just get lily

[cinder steppe]

!wa

[earnest prairie]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

both specs are performing well, sin is bugged atm

but to hit 3k you can play literally anything and make it

sin is baseline easier but you have to deal with deathstalker which is not a fun hero tree

[short radish]

not as high because prism stacks lower

[tribal blade]

sub is baseline harder but feels great to play atm

[short radish]

for funsies, check your most recent dawnbreaker and see how many stacks your prism is

this is feelycraft

[graceful scarab]

Aight, thank you!

[tribal blade]

i don't log my runs so i can look the next time i'm in there

[tribal blade]

no worries 😉

[short radish]

i wonder if i did

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hRBgkKGHQfarXJ4v?fight=2&type=summary

i have this shitty one

[tribal blade]

although i did take that into account and flew up in the air to hit the last boss when he was flying down to get a stack

[short radish]

how do you see the buff uptime fro it

[tribal blade]

i have no idea

[short radish]

yeah i throw a shuriken as well

[tribal blade]

the tech 😉

there's also the dummies you can smack

that was tech from S1

but issue with that is there's a patrol around that area

that nobody clears on routes anymore

so you can see the latent energy buff

but i'm not sure how to see how many stacks you have on casts

oh wait

is this it

[short radish]

hmmm

[dusty totem]

Yes that is the one

[short radish]

okay thats not as bad as i expected

[tribal blade]

if that's it you hover between sending at 7-9 stacks

on average it looks

not too bad

[dusty totem]

Yeah u get 9 stacks per 1:30

with 100% uptime

[tribal blade]

there's some other things you can do

like 1st boss you don't actually ahve to fly away right away

you can sit and keep hitting her until the very last second to fly out

[short radish]

kk im usually getting 7-8 then

yeah

i do that

[dusty totem]

In principle u could track when u last got a stack so u know when u are able to get a new one

cause i think u are block from getting for 10 sec after getting a stack

[tribal blade]

mm yeah could do

but that sounds like a level of min maxing i don't need to do yet

[wispy crystal]

Did this on my champion gear, and now I don't have catalyst charges for the heroic pieces 😂

[dusty totem]

Very likely not worth it yeah

[tribal blade]

sounds like a "i died because i was trying to get 1 last stack"

angle

hahaha

[dusty totem]

gotta get that 3k extra mainstat

[slate marlin]

id rather die fishing for 9th stack, than live like a coward and use only 7

[short radish]

based

[dusk stone]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[limpid sage]

I guess forge is broken for it then?

[short radish]

well

apparently its not as bad as i thought

[rancid spade]

in this wa what does the pink bar relate to?

[near rivet]

its prob a shadow technique stored CP

[short radish]

probably shadow techniques

[near rivet]

I've noticed that sim dps for sub on fuu spreadsheet has gone up by like 1% or so. Have you guys found a new minmax or something?

[rancid spade]

in regards to shadow technique should i be using finishers with less cps or just finishing like normal?

[short radish]

just play the game

and if it refunds

you press finisher again

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[short radish]

there's a WA for that

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[short radish]

there's some minor min max with point 2

[silver kettle]

any1 that can help out with single target raid stuff, trying to get my sub rouge into hc raid today, i can do the opener but i fall off in damage after that

[hazy breach]

Interesting, i havent experienced it as i pretty much always start with dance and not symbols

[karmic harbor]

what wa is this

[rancid spade]

luxthos rogue

i just changed font in custom options

[short radish]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[stoic steppe]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[karmic harbor]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[shy scarab]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[tribal blade]

damn you'd do a lot of dammy if you could use all the on use trinks at once huh

[shy scarab]

18stack+araz

holy moses

prob bursting the same as a deva on pull

[tribal blade]

to the moon

[dusty totem]

2x prism

[tight fjord]

!Macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[dusk stone]

whichever sub is probably harder to learn to start but you'd have to learn it anyway after sin

learning sin after sub is a lot easier than the other way around

[graceful scarab]

Aight! Thanks guys, i think i will go with sub ☺️❤️

[karmic harbor]

bruh i cant do more than 4.2mil on frac 😩

[sand roost]

Hey subs, i am trying to give this specc a try and its troubling me.
Do we use Blackpowder in AoE or dump it since we AoE as trickster?
Is SoD used outside of SD?
is Secret Technique used only in Opener and then with Flag+schadowblades or also whenever its ready?
Do we rupture only prio target or all?

[karmic harbor]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[karmic harbor]

if dance is up and sod isnt you press it

you use sectec with dance

[azure thicket]

i wonder what kind of pulls you have to do to get 7m overall in a streets key tbh

[short radish]

send a naked sectech and symbols

[azure thicket]

altho i think dungeon slice especially doesn't represent what'll happen in a sub key cause that 100 parse is lower than sim dps etc idk me issue

[lilac stag]

It doesn’t state anything. It just helps gearing choices.

[azure thicket]

true

but that 100 parse hit 7m reee

[lilac stag]

play better

Reeeee

[sand roost]

can i use sod for energy alone? if dance is not up?

[azure thicket]

if i could gently nudge the tank with a rolled up newspaper, i would

[dusk stone]

stormbound or charged armor kit

charged armor is better no since it gives 800 x 3 right?

oh its just worded weird

it says to all primary stats

[lilac stag]

pulls can change, but usually it’s a matter of getting comfortable sending CDs more aggressively.

[sand roost]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lilac stag]

Look at the key as one big encounter, not individual pulls

[sand roost]

Is vanish being used actively as sub?

[short radish]

dungeon slice is not an accurate representation of each and every dungeon

it is a good representation of what an average dungeon would be like though

with a mix of pull sizes

and bosses

[azure thicket]

yeah i know, it's just you know streets is a rp/walk heavy dungeon and the dude probably has a lot of bis gear

but like you know shadowblades the front door or the big pack inside the terminal area

with lust etc

[sand roost]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[lilac stag]

We don’t care about lust

[dusk stone]

you use vanish for several things

[karmic harbor]

in m+ maybe as long as you have charges for dance, on st not really a thing

[limpid sage]

Yes, but it’s better to use for resetting TFD timer or dodging spells

[azure thicket]

yeah i know, haste sucks i just mean being out of big cds and just sending dance/sod with blackpowder on a big lust pull etc etc

[dusk stone]

i primarily use it to gain stealth for TFD when tank is wanting to chain, you can use it to dodge a bolt, you can use it to gain premediation for full CP, you can use it to cheap shot

many uses

[lilac stag]

Your cds cycle fast enough to catch up

[sand roost]

TFD is which spell?

[karmic harbor]

the first dance

[azure thicket]

it is nice not being super dependent on vanish except for premeditation afaiu

[lilac stag]

Vanish is for dropping combat / defensive / movement in keys. Extra CDR as an additional option.

[sand roost]

We dont rupture in AoE?

[dusk stone]

we do

[lilac stag]

Not if cds are up

[dusk stone]

just outside of cd's

[limpid sage]

Ya or if tank is gathering adds

[lilac stag]

Tank gather or after cds and something will live 10-12 seconds

[devout knot]

Why subterfuge isnt played in sub builds? As well as second vanish
On surface looks very good, additional mini burst

[lilac stag]

higher keys usually have a bit more rupture usage than weekly keys.

[sand roost]

if cds are up we spam the evisrate/coup

[short radish]

no damage amp while in subterfuge

[lilac stag]

Other talents are better.

[dusk stone]

because suberfuge is a fairly weak talent compared to the other options

[limpid sage]

I’ve seen casual using flag at the start of pull in flood and spreading ruptures with shuriken nado

[azure thicket]

i've literally vanished to get a full coup out but that was it, filthy sub casual that i am

[limpid sage]

Pretty crazy burst you can get with full stacked flag for entire sblades

[dusk stone]

tea/vigor cb/lethality are pretty strong talents

[lilac stag]

Yes but in a pug environment you run a high risk of desyncing blades.

[dusk stone]

subterfuge is 3 seconds? of stealth abilities

[lilac stag]

Typically not worth it.

[limpid sage]

Ye I’ve done that too many times

[vale pine]

subterfuge does not apply stealth or dance benefits

so its rly weak

[lilac stag]

Which is why we don’t recommend

[limpid sage]

Considering making a weakaura that glows flag red if sblades is more than 3 sec away xd

[lilac stag]

For most it’s more than enough headache tracking dance and sod charges

[azure thicket]

is there a write up for symbols of death anywhere? i recall reading you can use it to send a sectec without shadowdance but not really sure if that's a confabulation or what

[lilac stag]

you ‘can’ but again typically not worth the risk

Same with cb Sectech on CD

[azure thicket]

ye i've felt the grief from doing that

[lilac stag]

just not worth it

[karmic harbor]

@vale pine im wondering if there's a condition for using dance outside of flag/blades? is it use whenever (sectec up) or should i be fishing for coup or smn

[toxic swan]

does running 2 crafted items with elemental focusing lens stack the effect?

!craft

[dusk stone]

Is sim broken?

according to stat weights mastery shouldnt be as good as vers or crit, when when i sim my crafts to vers/crit its a dps loss somehow

[lilac stag]

Stat weights are useless

Stop

With them already

[vale pine]

the conditions are:

• you have symbols and secret up for it
• you still get enough cds for your next 90 sec windows

[karmic harbor]

ic thanks

[vale pine]

thats how stats work

stat weights only show you how much you gain by adding stats to your current gear

but don't consider removing

if you re-creaft something

you remove a certain amount of stats

which can change your stat weights

but there is one simple trick to fix stat weights

[limpid sage]

Maybe worth including an “overcap” protection on it as well?

[vale pine]

i mean its obviouse

you don't want to only send cd's every 90 sec

because you would waste cooldowns

[vale pine]

^ and its super simple, just don't use stat weights

there is top gear, whic gives you gear to gear comparisons

you can evaluate individual pices way easier and more accurate

[young zealot]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[vale pine]

^ so the idea is to use cooldowns as much as possible while keeping 2 dance/symols possible during your 90 sec

[dusk stone]

sure i guess if they are useless there's no reason to use them, but why are they broken? shouldnt they not read as they do if certain stats are more valuable

[vale pine]

which is from a top level this

[dusk stone]

like mastery isnt 77.18 per point apparently

[vale pine]

they are not broken

[dusk stone]

apparently its more it just doesnt say that

[vale pine]

what you discribe is a user problem, not a problem of the tool

the limitations of the tool is that they don't know how things change if you remove stats

but you still question why the result acts like they do

this isn't a problem of the sim

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[karmic harbor]

look at it this way, 1 more point of crit/vers is worth more than 1 more point of mastery (with your current stats) when you recraft you lose mastery, and losing mastery might be a bigger loss than gaining crit/vers

[vale pine]

if you want to orient on stats, you can use the graph from this picture

[dusk stone]

yeah simming more recrafts with diff stats and regardless they are dps loss

not sure what i did wrong

[vale pine]

i mean maybe the craft you have

is the best option

[dusk stone]

possible

[shy scarab]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[grand viper]

@vale pine Do you know how many globals we can get in our CD window considering first dance/not with 0 shadowcraft resets

[lone halo]

@vale pine - question. Sometimes when I do my opener like on Arakara first pull. I do my rotation and with about 6 seconds left on Flag, I have 2 stacks of dance. What should I do?

I used 2 during the opener

[hollow spear]

Dance again

If stuff is not dead ofc

[lone halo]

Even if symbols at ST are down?

[vale pine]

procs should not change the amount of gcd's you get

[hollow spear]

Sounds unlikely

[shadow lance]

Pinging fuu for this kind trivial question is weird

[vale pine]

use dance

[hollow spear]

How would symbols be down with 3 charges

And st cdr is higher than dance cdr

[lone halo]

I dunno I guess I’ll need watch it again

[sand roost]

how does the Tricks of Trade as trickster work? Do i apply ToT one time on dungeon start and then it does its thing?

[lone halo]

I thought it was

[hazy breach]

!symbols

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[grand viper]

do yk how many it is tho :P is it 8?

[hazy breach]

1 per second'

[karmic harbor]

as long as you hit something 30s after pressing it yes

[shadow lance]

1 per sec, you okay bro?

[sand roost]

At how many CP do we use the finsiher?

[shadow lance]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[vale pine]

rogue has a static 1 sec cooldown

[shadow lance]

Read that

[vale pine]

so if flag lasts 24 sec

you should usually egt 24 spells into that

[dusk stone]

what build are you running

[hollow spear]

Make coup not be a messed up 1.2s thingy

I love coup, but I also hate it

[lethal yew]

Has anyone had an issue with tricks not working? I've been meleed through tricks several times. Last night we were doing the big paladin pull in priory. About 4-5 seconds after everything was gathered and I sent cds I got killed by a melee, with tricks up

[lone halo]

CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM2mBAAAAAgZhxy0YGmZmZYmZ8AmZMMmtZxYstMzMYmxYMzysNAAAAmZwAYMbGGYgZhFaxGM

[lone halo]

What dungeon

[sullen hare]

No I usually don't have any issue with tricks failing

[shadow lance]

he said psf

[sullen hare]

They just said priory

[lone halo]

Oh I missed that

[azure thicket]

oh uh, is there any reason to play the rotten* lmao

[lone halo]

I know Arakara if tank steps out of melee on the mini boss it will melee you

[sullen hare]

I recast tricks super often so I don't have any problems

[shadow lance]

Apply FW to all the pack

[lethal yew]

Same thing in Ara Kara. When the spiders jump down on 2nd lieutenant. Been killed by crawler aggro there

[dusk stone]

i think you are mashing your symbols button if you are out of charges

at that point*

[grand viper]

yea that happens through tricks, but the paladins dont

[lone halo]

Ok thanks I’ll check

[shadow lance]

Stupid question but, did you tricks the tank when he was on mount?

[lethal yew]

Nah i always wait

[azure thicket]

what is that abreviation? i'm looking at the talent tree for fw

[shadow lance]

Find Weakness

[lethal yew]

Not sure what happened with that paladin pull. Still confused

[azure thicket]

doy, thanks

[shadow lance]

I mean, are you sure Tricks was on the tank?

[earnest canyon]

im a little confused. during ST and we ahve coup outside of dance and symbol, we are supose to shuriken storm in between coup. but during that time, sometimes it takes 3~4 gcds to get enough energy to do the second coup with shuriken. is taht correct or are we supose to do something else

[dusk stone]

i tried all the different recrafts of bracers/shoulder/weapon and if what i see is to be believe, despite being 3 different stats on each craft they are all bis

[shadow lance]

And did you get meleed after SS from stealth or later in rotation?

[shadow lance]

During ST? Wdym?

[dusk stone]

mastery/vers crit/vers crit/mast

[earnest canyon]

during single target

[shadow lance]

And no, you don't shuriken in ST if you are not under Shadow Blades

[vale pine]

thats normal, there is never only "one" ultimate bis, but a certain amount of stats you can move around which will perform about the same

[shadow lance]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[earnest canyon]

ahhh ic, then in between coup we just backstab ?

[shadow lance]

Yeah

or ss if under dance

[dusk stone]

well i did each set of 3 individually, so all 3 of the bracers at once, all of the weapons etc

[earnest canyon]

but even then sometimes i cant get 6 cbs , do i juts send the coup proc with whatever cbs i have

[shadow lance]

pool energy and sht stacks ?

before sending first coup

[hazy breach]

na just send at any cp

its fine

[earnest canyon]

icic~~ ill try that from now on

[dusk stone]

eleem what are your stats

[hazy breach]

no idea

[dusk stone]

25 crit 23 vers 100 mastery

[fallow nimbus]

167 speed

[limpid sage]

Was it neutral (or worse) to send first at any cp vs sending at 6+ cp for first one and any cp for second?

[dusk stone]

according to sim those are the best stats somehow

[limpid sage]

Donno if I’m wording this in a way that makes sense

[vale pine]

just don't get haste

and you should be fine

[dusk stone]

well im just trying to min max with some off time after keys and i dont understand the result

[limpid sage]

I’m just thinking since you’re not on a timer, shouldn’t it be worth sending at higher cp if you’re able to?

[small mist]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hazy breach]

But you are on a timer?

[hazy breach]

Its better to send at any cp with coup

Not worse or neutral

[limpid sage]

Ah ye meant neutral or better

Confused myself

[limpid sage]

Ye but not the first one

[hazy breach]

Well the more backstab you use the more likely you are to proc unseen blade

[limpid sage]

Hmm true

[spiral sierra]

just so im reading this right, if i get a coup, i want to use ASAP, then get as much CP as possible and use before it runs out of the second coup? regardless of CP?

[hazy breach]

Coup is +5 combo points

[spiral sierra]

ok so first coup?

is 5+

[hazy breach]

So you can use a 1 cp finisher and its considered a 6 combo point finisher

So thats fine

[spiral sierra]

ohhhhh

even second coup?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[spiral sierra]

bruh ive been doing it at like 6+ everytime

FML

no wonder my energy is out

[hazy breach]

Its not really a big deal

[spiral sierra]

well ive been doing it during the downtime of CD's is what i meant i should have clarified......

[toxic cedar]

yo, how does the sim use vanish in raid, i feelcraft it in between coup casts when not in symbols/dance, idk if thats right or not tho

[dusk stone]

when simc default for flask is left on does it choose the best one depending on your stats

[vale pine]

it uses alchemic chaos

[dusk stone]

thanks

[hazy breach]

that or just strike for cp, both are fine

Largely inconsequential though

[dusk stone]

yeah when i selected crit flask from the thing crit/vers options were the better choice by a margin

i think there was some weirdness with chaos flask

[clever delta]

high vers is btter than high mastery right

[hazy breach]

It doesnt particularly matter

As long as you dont get haste

[clever delta]

im like couple ratings points below mastery DR

[sand roost]

Just for my understanding, doing BP on 4+ means we spam it as finisher instead of evis?

[dusk stone]

well i gain 8k from crit/vers recrafts so thats ok ig

[hazy breach]

Instead of regular eviscerates yes

You always use coup though

[stoic steppe]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[sand roost]

And we also applie rupture on all adds?

[stoic steppe]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[final violet]

!MACRO

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[cerulean beacon]

!loot

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1406266615619784765/suble.webp

[final violet]

Anyone has Danse Macabre standalone WA?

[hazy breach]

No, as its not something youd need or want to track

[dusk stone]

btw just wanted to say ty to everyone whose here, game is much easier to figure out when we have good answes to stuff

[mighty crow]

i notice a lot of people playing sub over assassin lately

any reason for that in paticular?

[dusk stone]

subs pretty strong rn and doesnt require tank to pull stuff ontop of boss to funnel

[mighty crow]

hm. i just have to learn sub though

[hazy breach]

If you dont want to, then dont

[azure thicket]

sub kinda feels like giving rogue an axe

it's a vibe

[mighty crow]

iv been trying to learn sub for a while now. idk what im doin wrong but i only do decent numbers on single target. aoe i end up at hte bottom of the list

[tight monolith]

anyone else not feeling too hot as sub in gambit on a bit higher keys or is it skill issue?

[dusk stone]

define higher key

[tight monolith]

like 16

[azure thicket]

outlaw recommended running crippling over mind numbing

if that helps

[tight monolith]

I do run crippling there

[dusk stone]

only 2nd boss can you really pull mobs ontop of

[azure thicket]

might just be target cap but i'm just getting setup to push harder keys out of resil 12s this season

cinderbrew is a nightmare on outlaw cause of how packs die etc

[tight monolith]

I just fall off so hard on overall mid gambit kinda on hooktail

[azure thicket]

did the 14 with assassin cause it was a chore and a half

[tight monolith]

feels fine until hooktail

[dusk stone]

subs ST in keys is not bad

just dont let tanks pull those 3 trash mobs 1 at a time

and refferably last 1 ontop of boss

with flag

[tight monolith]

nah sub st in keys is fine

[mighty crow]

i wanted ot play outlaw but everyone i know who mained outlaw last seasson dropped it for sub or assassin and now iv been seeing assassin players drop it for sub.

sub feels kinda hard to play htough but it could jsut be me

[azure thicket]

if you know how to use lingering darkness sub isn't that hard to pick up

just gotta send it

[dusk stone]

if you can play outlaw you can play sub

sub is just and/or/if decision making really

[tight monolith]

feel like theres some convos going a bit here and there, have a good one lads🫡

[dusk stone]

i'm not sure where you'd be falling off in gambit where sin wouldnt be

[rancid spade]

why are we meant to use Shuriken Storm between the regular and 4-Set Bonus casts of Coup de Grace.

[mighty crow]

ill figure it out im sure. single target im good. aoe is where i struggle

[dusk stone]

16's is when the trash mobs before 1st boss would live long enough for burst

aoe is just replacing evis with bp

you don't stop pressing strike just like ST

[hazy breach]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[mighty crow]

wow head says i still use evis for aoe

[lethal yew]

Yeah looking at my log where I died through tricks in the priory. Cast tricks on the tank, we both got the buff at 12:34. Tank runs in pulls paladins out. I get killed by a melee at 12:47. Maybe some weird z-axis stuff. Idk

[dusk stone]

it does not say that

[hazy breach]

!Aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[dusk stone]

it says that you use evis for 3 or less, and bp for 4 or more

[devout quarry]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mighty crow]

i mean tbf it just straight up says use it to proc coup de grace and bp on 4 or more.

[dusk stone]

yes you coup in aoe

[mighty crow]

i guess thats whats confusing me.

shuriken for aoe and just keep slapping evis and rupture around?

unless you know 4+ targets

[hazy breach]

No

[mighty crow]

no?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

[mighty crow]

no ruptur spread then?

[hazy breach]

Thats not the part i said no about, you'd spread ruptures outside dance

[mighty crow]

mk

im used to just playin tanks so i guess im out of the "complicated" rotation game

[rancid spade]

for st rotation what does the red box mean.. i dont understand it

specifically the 2nd part

[mighty crow]

its more or less important

[hazy breach]

Dont cast symbols if sectech isnt reeady (or close to ready, <10s)

[mighty crow]

yea that

[dusk stone]

strike

[mighty crow]

all right. ill have to do some practice here. not quiet used to aoeing with out pressing shuriken lol

ill get it eventually lol

[karmic harbor]

wait you don't need to finish 2nd coup at 6cp? 😩

[hazy breach]

You dont need to any of the coups at 6+ no

[azure thicket]

it's weird that danse macabre used to involve shuri tornado or wrhatever

it's still talented sometimes tho?

[hazy breach]

Huh

Why would it be weird for a talent mentioning "combo point generators" to work with a combo point generator

[azure thicket]

no i don't mean like that, i just recall it being used in dragonflight more commonly, but also like casualaddict is using it in a priory 17

but it's not something i'm using currently et cetera

[hidden plank]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[hazy breach]

Yeah its a lot worse when a lot of power is tied to strikes and coup

[rancid spade]

with coup de grace.. so get 6 cp then use eviserate -> shuriken storm -> coup (eviserate) again.. do you not need 6 cps for 2nd one?

[idle aurora]

if your dances havent come up enough nd you have a sec tec will you ever just run it to allow dance more time to cycle

[karmic harbor]

you're only meant to storm with blades up or in aoe before 2nd coup

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[mighty crow]

i think im understanding aoe for sub now after i started following what was said my aoe went up

[rancid spade]

on the wowhead it appears in the st rotation section:

[idle aurora]

and you only stop 10 seconds before if coup is ACTUALLY up

?

[hazy breach]

No

[idle aurora]

always

ok

thats what i have been doing

[hazy breach]

Its also not full stop, just stop finishing

[swift cloak]

In blades should i spend on evis or bp ( aoe scenario)?

[hazy breach]

Still backstab

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[mighty crow]

having to deprogram m yfingers from slapping bp in ev ery aoe situation is making me fat finger lol

[karmic harbor]

@vale pine

[tender frost]

how do you guys deal with getting late shadowcraft resets from coup do you just send your next global as builder or pause to see if you get a reset

[tepid trellis]

thats just fuu missing something there, you only do it during Blades or with 4+ targets

[tepid trellis]

you wait out the cast

[tender frost]

i find situations a lot where i coup at 6 stacks and then ill build to 8 while the coups are going off and it resets me late

[tepid trellis]

only thing you can really do

you are gcd locked for 1.2 sec with the cast anyway

so just wait for the spell to finish

[tender frost]

ahh okay, one extra question stealthi when you're going into dance w 4 stacks already is it better to go coup - dance - coup - sectec or do you just send dance into sectec first

[tepid trellis]

sectech first

[onyx smelt]

When playing first dance and proccing coup early in opener, do we ever send 2nd sectech in first dance?

[tender frost]

and just munch the disorienting stacks?

[cerulean beacon]

i dont think i fully understand shadowcraft. I noticed there are times I have 7 CPs stored, but my combo point bar doesnt fill up - this also sometimes happens when i have 8 or 9. As if there was a slight delay before it fills up, which leads to me wasting resets as i press a builder. i'd say like 70% of the time i get the reset as expected

[tepid trellis]

2 things fucks with shadowcraft

Premed being up

and Coup

[cerulean beacon]

ohhh

but why tho

isnt that a bug

[tepid trellis]

with premed up you won get the refund

wont*

and coup you can get them up to like 0,95 sec after the cast

[cerulean beacon]

okay the premed thing makes a lot of sense now

thanks

[runic trail]

So.... hypothetical.

If I were to make an M+ group of all sub rogues with the strategy of killing bosses in evasion windows.... how high do you think we could get and what keys would be best for this.

I need to do some experimenting

[hazy breach]

I think trash is the main issue

And well, the timer

[runic trail]

Just need to cycle evasions its fine

probably

I see no downsides

[fallen mesa]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[hazy breach]

Probably hard to control who gets aggro after the first evasion

[runic trail]

All I'm seeing here are possibilities

[tepid trellis]

you just dance

in a rotation

ez

[runic trail]

I've been running drunk all guardian druid keys so that's got me thinking

Which is a horrifying prospect

Which keys would work, because my thoughts so far are that Dawnbreaker is probably out due to first and third bosses.

Streets, probably out due to Oasis

[olive jacinth]

Wait as Sub CB affects all spells not just finishers like assa

[runic trail]

I need to make a strategy to deal with trash but I'm seeing some potential in this plan.

[olive jacinth]

I have been using CB always before generator 🙁

[runic trail]

For fun stupid keys

[lusty root]

Gg

[astral cairn]

Hi guys i want to ask something, what trinket should i take on sub rouge ?

[final violet]

araz i think

just sim the gear and vault

[sand roost]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[fast relic]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[fast relic]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[olive jacinth]

As assa i just ignored Loomithar add. We dont do that as sub right?

[chrome palm]

Sub can’t do much to it either but you should swap if rdps alone can’t kill

[olive jacinth]

Yeah outside of CDs the damage is way to low to be noticed

[chrome palm]

I tried full swapping and holding dance and my damage to it was still among the lowest in the raid

[bright elk]

How does sub compare to the other two specs on M soul hunters?

[karmic harbor]

you can check on warcraftlogs

[steel jolt]

you could look at the top logs to find out if this is a dps question

[karmic harbor]

it's an outlaw fight baby

[bright elk]

Oof I’ve got too much mastery and not enough haste for outlaw lol

Ty

[burnt ridge]

do sub need any nameplate markers like caustic spatter or deasthstalker marks?

for better tracking?

[steel jolt]

sounds like you meant to ask this in #assassination ?

[burnt ridge]

im switching to sub

[steel jolt]

ohh i get ya

[burnt ridge]

when you play assa you better gave some nameplate markes like causticspatter

*have

[stoic token]

whats the difference between playing rotten vs no rotten and thistle tea vs cold blood in m+. Is it just preference?

[swift tinsel]

pretty much

tea vs cb is trading off a small amount of aoe and single target

[stoic token]

makes sense why the top keys are playing cold blood then, they are valuing boss dmg a lil more?

[swift tinsel]

likely

[stoic token]

ima go back to thistle tea again i dont like playing around CB

[burnt ridge]

playing around?

[stoic token]

yea i dont have it bound

to a macro at least is what i mean

[mint violet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker

[prime raft]

is ironclaw whetstone or mana oil better for us or is it a sim thing

[narrow owl]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xYLwtD1Zg26AFfXW?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=17

Could someone help me with a log review? Damage is super low, I must be doing something wrong

[vale pine]

whestone 2x

[swift tinsel]

mana oil/bubbling wax is winning for me

[stoic token]

im confused on why play thistle tea at all test=CB current gear=thistletea

cb is better in both ST and aoe

[charred raven]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[vale pine]

i am fairly certain you don't have all these buffs in a dungeon

but i don't know what you simmed, if its for raid. Gear plays a role

[stoic token]

i simmed 1tar 5 min and 5tar 5 min comparing thistle tea/cb. I didnt include raid buffs

cb beat in both st and aoe

granted this is a fresh alt rogue with decent gear but not optimal so that could change sims as i get better jewelry

[vale pine]

try 8 targets

[lilac stag]

Tea shifts the dmg forward to aoe and CB focuses more on ST. Crit and easily spreading FW pushes tea/vigor ahead in AOE.

[stoic token]

is there any optimization around getting 2 CB's for every 1 shadowblades. I noticed if i use CB on my first sectech, i can use another in between and have it back up for the 2nd sectech in my next shadowblades. I know this isnt optimal for raid but thinking more m+ where cds are a little more fluid

[lilac stag]

5T sims really don’t mean shit

[prisma ridge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

especially when using all the raid buffs.

[vale pine]

i mean, i am still unsure what he sims for

so maybe its raid

[eager jasper]

anyone else having issues with cold blood+ sec tech macro?

[vale pine]

but i don't rly know a fight you have sustained aoe to make tea worth it

[upper narwhal]

Weirdly the raid build sims higher for dsclice than either m+ build for me and idk why

[vale pine]

maybe stats

or trinkets

[limpid sage]

!cbbug

[wicked jolt]

Cold Blood bug:
A common issue when switching between Assassination Fatebound and Subtlety is that Cold Blood stops working, this problem is solvable with the following step:

• Relogging.
  You can use ths weakaura to get a reminder: >Open on Wago.io <

[eager jasper]

Thx, had no idea

[cedar willow]

yo dudes, Gosshammer onslaught in ara kara doesnt appear to be affected by feint even with elusiveness? known bug?

look at before and after feint

same damage

[wheat elk]

this is just annoying

..

[warm marlin]

worked for me recently

sure you were talented into elus, maybe lost another source of 20% dr at the same time?

[limpid sage]

you didn't have feint up already?

[hazy breach]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRbbVqlyvPRWxPiMH5825BKQutI4FQA8j5cBEB49M8BVw50yKlrDmnyI12q10vEQPrhskrR_EydtwzZ/pubhtml#gid=1635687783
per the pins in #wow-general

[limpid sage]

also

[hazy breach]

Feint does indeed not work against gossamer

[cedar willow]

so gosshamer isnt aoe

or not aoe

-_-

[warm marlin]

it should work with elusive though

[hazy breach]

Ye ofc elusiveness always works

[warm marlin]

ya but he said it didnt work with elusive

[lunar crystal]

How many shadowdances can I usually use between CD casts?

[neon frigate]

in big groups what is better when shadowdance and symbols to strike single target to have debuff + black powder or shuriken storm + BP?

[hazy breach]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[crisp dock]

any recommendation for sub guides?

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[split stirrup]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[lilac stag]

All 3 guides.

[charred raven]

Any reason not to macro backstab into the thistle tea shadow dance macro?

[vale pine]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance/Tea Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow Dance /castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, nullThis will cast Shadow Dance and Tea(if talented) on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[charred raven]

Thank you!

[worldly violet]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: **You can stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up. This is to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[lunar crystal]

is the reason to have it on two keypresses so you can press dance without also pressing backstab? Or why is there a castseq instead of just simple cast?

[vale pine]

if you start dance with high cp

you would finish before using backstab

[lunar crystal]

Ait, thanks!

[vale pine]

the macro allows you to have control over when you use it

[restive moth]

anyone elses raidbots 5min patch sim saying youll do 4 flag/sb cds? doesnt even make sense lol

[karmic harbor]

0, 1:30, 3:00. 4:30

?

[restive moth]

....

i need a nap

[karmic harbor]

sweet dreams

[sly shore]

LMAO

the evolution

[hallow night]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/nAVRKJFcGNxfTCpw?fight=16&type=damage-done&source=17

Anyone mind looking at my log for Naaz and helping find what major mistakes I made during the fight? I did more dps last week with less gear. I was feeling sick and I think it had a bigger impact on my performance than I realized at the time.

[lilac stag]

I tagged you when I first did it week 1.

Fuu wasn’t down to make it the bot command unfortunately.

[warm marlin]

whats your goal here, are you trying to pad your parse number (assume so from the black powder casts) or are you trying to blast boss

[sly shore]

[hallow night]

pad parse number

[warm marlin]

need to hold the 3:30 blades for 4:30

[hallow night]

So hold for 1 min for add set

Makes sense

[karmic harbor]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/soulbinder-naazindhri

[hallow night]

Those adds came out and I was like 30 sec away from another blades

[karmic harbor]

soak the line orbs so the adds dont break

[graceful osprey]

This week my guild decided to not pop any adds on soulbinder heroic and let them all come at once…it was glorious

[kind grotto]

Anyone feel like overall DPS and burst dps is down from yesterday? Or am i just playing bad xD

[karmic harbor]

if you get kicked for this dont send them my way

[warm marlin]

are people actually doing this

[karmic harbor]

well people in my guild somehow still do it

[vivid cobalt]

did i hear sub got buffed

[graceful osprey]

We did

In pvp

[vivid cobalt]

oh

what did they do

[graceful osprey]

Just damage buff

[limpid sage]

guys what's echoing tempest

just died from nothing on forgeweaver

[narrow owl]

Could someone please look at my frac log and tell me what I’m doing wrong? Following the guides but my damage is super low. There’s something I’m missing.

[steel jolt]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[steel jolt]

@narrow owl ^ something to start with

[neon frigate]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

• Always cast Coup de Grace when it is ready, regardless of target count.
• Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).
• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

[woeful roost]

guys what do u recommend whetstone on both daggs or whetstone and bubbling wax

[upper narwhal]

it's the ground swirlies that damage + silence

[neon frigate]

• At ALL target counts use Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm.

What does this mean

[visual lark]

!fuu

[upper narwhal]

during shadow dance build with shadowstrike

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[neon frigate]

You have to switch target and use shadowstrike or keep same target?

[upper narwhal]

same target

[warm marlin]

burst window needs a ton of work, first flag of the fight you just didn't cast your second dance in cds, it fell off around 15s and you didnt cast it again until 24s, should instantly chain them. same with symbols, didnt supercharge cb sectec, just didn't cast cds in general. that dance at 24s was also wrong, cast it raw without symbols and without sectec ready, it fell off before sectec was up. second flag a lot better, third flag weird things happen again, you only got 6/8 gcds in both of your dances

also you should only storm to build between coups in shadowblades, you're doing it in regular dances

[neon frigate]

@upper narwhal so in burst mode you keep same target and also in aoe you do shadowstrike instead of shuriken storm?

[warm marlin]

it looks like someone dropped a wall in the safespot which griefed you pretty hard on the first cd set, a bit unfortunate but not recovering is going to lose you a ton of damage

[limpid sage]

ok thought so - just weird because nothing was around me