i miss dfa
#subtlety
vale lagoon
i miss being playable
i miss not having to play the spec that aoes by sharting green onto the ground
sinful sluice
i got into mythic+ party and got kicked cuz he thought i was assa but actually was sub
😦
short radish
100? you think we even have double digit numbers playing this spec?
steel horizon
i got into mythic+ party and got kicked cuz he thought i was assa but actually w...
thats why you apply as sin and then change to sub after u walk in
pliant topaz
okay but like the tooltip numbner suggests that it is buffed
because prior to buff evis ~ 2.4 bp
after it shoulda been about 1.78
vale lagoon
okay but like the tooltip numbner suggests that it is buffed
literally flurry 2.0?
pliant topaz
i compare tooltips, its 1.78
so the tooltipis buffed
but the damage in logs is not
there is no shot on 14 targets nimble does more than bp
vale lagoon
i mean yeah
i didn't exactly notice a dps increase in any keys
but i thought i just sucked too much at ds
vale lagoon
https://tenor.com/view/hahahahaha-gif-23474087
bro im about to go to bed
im gonna see that shit in my dreams
teal night
And outlaw doesn't exist ?
vale lagoon
you are dreaming
meh with the precedence of flurry bug, this seems pretty real to me
short radish
it's acutally kinda fucking wild that shit like this was only noticed 1.5 weeks later or something
because no one plays this spec
vale lagoon
i mean
there's also 0 clarity in the base game
like we would not know this if not for a fucking 3rd party addon program
in other games using 3rd party shit is considered cheating
meanwhile in this game 3rd party stuff is literally the life support for the fucking coma patient that is blizzard
pliant topaz
okay perfect.
this shows -> every cast was on 7 cps
i was in dance the entire duration
average hit was 181k
the tool tips is 186k
outside of dance
sullen hare
Sadly I agree with this as mindless as it was
wispy bolt
i said yesterday that we were doing less damage it felt like
in raid i was doing like 5% less damage
edited cause exagerating but still
left ledge
when my name was gloomblade enthusiast
we were crazy in aoe
unstoppable
literal helicopter
sullen hare
I do remember you being named that
wispy bolt
i wanna see more investigation i wouldnt doubt its fucked
vale lagoon
nah go back to 10.0, when we were shadow outlaw
sullen hare
I was going to try to go back to the fabled time the one guy had a conversation in here and I mentioned that I didn't really feel like anything needed to change
vale lagoon
flatline spec so i can do good in m+
sullen hare
When the rework was cooking
pliant topaz
i wanna see more investigation i wouldnt doubt its fucked
???
sullen hare
But I'm too full of yeast byproducts to internet efficiently
wispy bolt
are you saying the damage is buff is fucked or the tooltip is fucked?
short radish
pliant topaz
its not doing the damage it says it does
either theres a bug thats reducing the damage
or tooltips wrong
no way to know
results the same
vale lagoon
enough is enough
u back
wispy bolt
i said yesterday that it felt like we did less damage 🤷♂️
left ledge
bill gates
vale lagoon
stop killing my fucking spec
sub lives matter!
left ledge
fix this shit
wispy bolt
cant wait for more investigation
sullen hare
fix this shit
I'm not gonna campaign for gloomblade spam to make a comeback but why'd they squeeze us on energy costs for both builders and spenders? They achieved the desired effect of bringing down apm
But at what cost Despairge
pliant topaz
enough is enough
NO SHT LMFAO
sullen hare
No sht would be even worse
vale lagoon
wasn't there someone with a weird colored name in here a few days ago
saying we're dooming too much?
can someone @ that guy
sullen hare
I wouldn't know, I've been dooming forever
short radish
wasn't there someone with a weird colored name in here a few days ago
there was this
sullen hare
That one guy said we're an extraordinarily divisive breed of people if we're talking about the same person and he wasn't wrong
sinful sluice
how do you guys run sim on mythic+? do i just set 7 dummies or what
short radish
how do you guys run sim on mythic+? do i just set 7 dummies or what
dungeon slice
vale lagoon
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/1295234843734...
eh that's just a fellow blue name
sinful sluice
oki
sullen hare
how do you guys run sim on mythic+? do i just set 7 dummies or what
Dungeonslice is properly implemented I believe
vale lagoon
im talking one of the purple names?
are they the mods or what
i remember it hella clear bcuz i thought purple should be the sub color lol
sullen hare
They're just more purple than the average rogue
Fuu is in here all the time and is orange if that helps
vale lagoon
does being more purple mean that they are even more of an asshat
bcuz that guy seemed a little unkind and disingenuous
sullen hare
Colors are well explained in the server FAQ pretty sure
sweet summit
fuu like whipyr died for our sins and used cheat death to leave the tomb a week later
the goat
vale lagoon
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/215503271068958722/1135840258861...
oh thanks!
vale lagoon
im not used to mods and "leadership" being 2 groups lol
ig i gotta be in more big servers
sullen hare
Feel free to wow general me oxi I've earned it
sweet summit
mots
old venture
Feel free to wow general me oxi I've earned it
I'll kiss you on the mouth
how about that
sullen hare
Don't threaten yourself with a mediocre time
old venture
sullen hare
Welcome to the subtlety channel
sweet summit
bro scared about the power imbalance between the mods and non mods
short radish
enjoy your stay
sweet summit
let them kiss
vale lagoon
nah bcuz i started the game palying undead rogue
so i magine all rogues as undead models
sweet summit
nah bcuz i started the game palying undead rogue
old venture
my name in the bear troupe discord
vale lagoon
and these kiss shit now make me think of 2 undeads kissing...
old venture
sullen hare
This really is wow general chat though
sweet summit
and these kiss shit now make me think of 2 undeads kissing...
ur scared cuz u like it
sullen hare
And by that I mean #wow-general
vale lagoon
ur scared cuz u like it
...are u familiar with the jawless model lmao
sullen hare
Borderline ot 
sweet summit
no i get u tho lmao
pliant topaz
https://tenor.com/view/monkey-limbani-monkey-wash-gif-19021407
orange is the cutest ones
purples are shtinky
greens are just apes
except LE and eleem
tawdry pond
do we change trinkets if its stil 1.5min cds?
sullen hare
orange is the cutest ones
Finish this sentence: yellows are _________
sweet summit
I dont see name color 
left ledge
dont think rogue discord has yellow names
old venture
Finish this sentence: yellows are \_________
vale lagoon
I dont see name color <:pepe_chad:1022918986737926225>
sir i think that's a medical condition
pliant topaz
Finish this sentence: yellows are \_________
vale lagoon
btw @pliant topaz senpai did u go test bp buffs more just now, or did u just ragequit for a bit lol
short radish
test your sanity
i'm worried about you
please talk to a loved one
pet a cat or something
sullen hare
👉👈
vale lagoon
what else am i gonna test
sry man, i just wanna confirm that the buffs aren't working as intended
pls dont hurt me
sullen hare
Always assume it's bugged until proven otherwise in a pin
sinful sluice
wait so BP 35% is actually not live yet?
sullen hare
Attaboy
short radish
sinful sluice
it did not?
old venture
well the tooltip changes are live LUL
hey now that's half the battle
pliant topaz
specs gonna stay what it is
old venture
sinful sluice
do they not care about sub.....
pliant topaz
just a lot worse gameplay wise
old venture
ngl
pliant topaz
also pretty sure m+ is gonna be even worse
old venture
idk if its a lot worse gameplay wise
pliant topaz
cuz tricksters turbo dead
old venture
it'll feel worse I think
but not a lot worse
realistically dust was fucking ass to play around
sinful sluice
wait how long has it been dead
sinful sluice
i was running trickster for everything
pliant topaz
realistically dust was fucking ass to play around
dust right now feels pretty good tbh
sullen hare
So that makes the dust changes a net gain for you
pliant topaz
in 10.2 it was aweful though
sullen hare
Disagree it feels exactly the same now as it did then
pliant topaz
but also, if they actually either fucked up the buff, or theres another bug we dont know of, thats killing DS aoe
and trickster is getting nuked
old venture
in 10.2 it was aweful though
we were going to get to that point though, esp when farm creeps up for the majority of the player base
old venture
having to adjust timings every single night
pliant topaz
we were going to get to that point though, esp when farm creeps up for the major...
the problem was ashes being 2 minutes
that caused it
old venture
bro m+ sub has been dogshit for a long time
sullen hare
Killing dust now will give devs time to make us good enough for the last raid of the expansion
pliant topaz
1.5 min on uses meant good gameplay
left ledge
Killing dust now will give devs time to make us good enough for the last raid of...
last raid of the saga
pliant topaz
like im fine with dust being gone, but like yea...
old venture
ye they def need to adjust some shit and fix a ton of other shit
removing dust and giving us 2 charges of symbols is fucking stupid
because 2 charges of symbols would've made dust legit fine to play
lmfao
sullen hare
last raid of the saga
This rework will finally make subtlety rogues happy (box full of ™️ )
sweet summit
rework i respec outlaw irl and pistol shot myself between the eyes
old venture
but we all kinda expected dust to die
sweet summit
or i*
old venture
the higher end players hated it because it became a chore
left ledge
but we all kinda expected dust to die
yeah maybe when a whole hero talent tree wasnt dependent on it
old venture
and the lower end players couldn't even utilize it properly
left ledge
old venture
just like by design dust was destined to fail
old venture
the SL 🧀
short radish
no
old venture
classic
short radish
not that cursed tech
do not bring it back
with the 30 second pull timer garbo respec
short radish
old venture
there was that other cursed sL tech
where you'd vanish with the leggo for the buff
and then swap back
left ledge
yeah deathly shadows
old venture
yeah that one lmfao
old venture
real talk
short radish
sure loved playing with this on my screen for a whole fight to remind me how stupid i am
or that aa boomkin pulled at 2 seconds instead of at 0
sweet summit
why did outlaw get killing spree
old venture
sweet summit
ill cry about it forever
sweet summit
its so obviously a sub rogue animation
sullen hare
sure loved playing with this on my screen for a whole fight to remind me how stu...
I always made fun of the other rogue for doing that shit lmao
pliant topaz
why wasn't edge of night a sub talent
because it was a talent that had a cool niche, had a cool theme, and would make sense
so we got goremaw instead
sweet summit
then again nothing feels right on outlaw because that whole spec is a flavor fail
sullen hare
why did outlaw get killing spree
They can fuckin keep it
sweet summit
They can fuckin keep it
i dont want killing spree
old venture
so we got goremaw instead
why couldn't we get hemo back?
sweet summit
i want its animation
old venture
wispy bolt
my gpu drivers just crashed on an 11 siege that was extra tiomable
last boss
imma cry
sweet summit
a rogue leaps from the shadow striking a target multiple times in rapid succession who should get this ability ?
sullen hare
why couldn't we get hemo back?
Even just for the splat sound
wispy bolt
my ey too
sweet summit
the gun slinging outlaw
short radish
a rogue leaps from the shadow striking a target multiple times in rapid successi...
give us kyvezas abilities
sweet summit
give us kyvezas abilities
old venture
Even just for the splat sound
pliant topaz
i dont even know what this thing is oxi
this looks like the thing for locks to heal their pets
old venture
i dont even know what this thing is oxi
sullen hare
👴
short radish
yet another ability that warlocks have stolen
left ledge
https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/316923898501529600/9106137551660...
i found it @old venture
thats what we need
old venture
lmao
I remember coming in here when you did that
and was like
yeah I'm not touching this spec
pliant topaz
okay but hemo sounds aweful LMFAO
short radish
i swear the other specs never have anything like this
pliant topaz
theres like so many cooler things we could get tbh
old venture
okay but hemo sounds aweful LMFAO
wtf
pliant topaz
but im not going down that path
old venture
bro I miss shadowlands
that was when I had infinite time to game
and I wasn't washed
could never figure out sylv
unluigi
old venture
you should see my heroic kills
old venture
when I was selling carries
pliant topaz
ive already finished my thesis iteration 1
made my project website
did a practice thesis defence
im ready
old venture
pliant topaz
sheesh
old venture
then sepulcher hit
and I was forced to prog anduin
and I was never the same again
I spent 4 hours of my birthday
wiping to anduin
and after 160 wipes
these motherfuckers go
"hey do you wanna be benched for this?"
sullen hare
Yes
short radish
im so happy i was benched for anduin
short radish
legit best part about having 2 rogues is getting to spend time on the bench
now one of our rogues had to roll DK
left ledge
that has these cursed techs
they deleted my beloved deathly shadows
short radish
so no bench 
old venture
that's the last time I had a real rogue friend
left ledge
and everybody said
old venture
left ledge
"ok no more prepulls"
old venture
@low gull I miss you king
left ledge
but that was during my dangerous era
that was when i was making gloomblade one shots in pvp
ok
short radish
you sir need to be locked up
old venture
you were legit the definition of a rat in SL
short radish
no naughty words
left ledge
yeah
old venture
where the fuck does the time go
old venture
I remember doing keys as sub
old venture
and having tanks pull a bunch of shit onto bosses
left ledge
ugh dude
old venture
for the free CP generation
old venture
would just DUMPSTER the boss
and then it made me even more sad
because shuriken combo
left ledge
you know, although prepulls like that were a bit too cursed
old venture
COME BACK TO ME MY SWEET
left ledge
i feel like blizz actively goes out of their way to ban anything creative
pliant topaz
u guys just cry about all the cool things we had, what aout the cool things we have right now?
like PV
old venture
like actual funnel man
sullen hare
I remember doing keys as sub
I remember liking ER sub in sl so
old venture
like PV
we had perforated veins in SL you fuck
that aint new
goremaw aint new either
sullen hare
Nah ain't new
pliant topaz
jokes on you then
sullen hare
Just kinda yesterday's news
vale lagoon
...i still feel like flurry on sub + inev is SO cool
old venture
it wasn't even a talent
left ledge
we had perforated veins in SL you fuck
WRONG
WRONG
WRONG
PV WAS ACTUALLY GOATED IN SL
vale lagoon
even if it's capped and bugged to hell
left ledge
AND I REMEMBER
vale lagoon
unironically
old venture
real talk the soulbinds were actually sick as fuck too
left ledge
yeah if they just unlocked everything at the start
holy shit
it wouldve been so good
old venture
there was so much good in SL that was just shit on by needless friction
left ledge
if legos werent gold sink
old venture
like conduit energy
left ledge
and take 10 years
pliant topaz
real talk the soulbinds were actually sick as fuck too
turns out if u spend time designing things they could be cool
sullen hare
Having 1 or 2 per faction was pretty dope halfway through the expansion
left ledge
if you could swap in and out of conduits and soulbinds
old venture
remember when literally every player of every skill level was like "yeah this is bad"
and they were like NO ITS NOT
ITS GOOD
then when they FINALLY removed it
they went "We still think it was the right call, but we're removing it"
like oh okay
left ledge
yeah that thing was
old venture
LMFAO
old venture
idk if you played SL beta
but conduits were 1 use
if they didn't change the original version
you woulda had to refarm them
lmfao
left ledge
why tf would you want your players to feel like their "choices are meaningful" by forcing them into playing only ST
oh i wanna do m+ now
fuck you buddy
you dont get to
old venture
I was actually on my glad grind
and I ran out of conduit energy
so I was like yeah fuck this
left ledge
sullen hare
you dont get to
Kinda felt like that. Raid sub feels kinda like that outside of council
old venture
and rpd
old venture
forced us into the maw
vale lagoon
SL was poised to be so sick man
they also nuked lore/fantasy for us forsaken players
sullen hare
forced us into the maw
Just play a druid or worgen xdddxd
left ledge
i posted about gloomblade
in like s1?
it took the community
like a whole season
to start picking it up
left ledge
oh fuck those
old venture
THAT YOU COULDN'T TRADE TO ALTS
old venture
OR GET ANYTHING FOR
old venture
I still have like 7000
left ledge
I HAD PEOPLE IN MY GUILD
old venture
stygian embers
old venture
then they decided
after 2 weeks
they were just gonna buff the blood/frost shards
unannounced
thanks jeff hamilton
good system
omg I'm getting angry about it again
4 years later
left ledge
yeah idk shadowlands had some insanely shit systems
but the gameplay was actually not bad
old venture
the dungeons outside of sanguine depths
left ledge
(after flag rework ofc)
old venture
were actually fun
wind canopy
I miss dom shards...
old venture
alright someone ban this guy
left ledge
after nerfs yeah
wind canopy
Taz was fine, sure
left ledge
it was very not sick before nerfs
wind canopy
Forgot about them
wind canopy
Yeah
old venture
and streets was undoable on fort weeks
you'd just get one shot by the trash
my fav SL dungeon moment
25 tyrannical TOP
me and the hunter finished the pvp 2s too early
we land
xav jumps
and we both just died
wind canopy
TOP? Fuck that. NW? Hated it. DOS? Yeah, I love 45 minute dungeons.
old venture
funny enough
they forgot the whitelist the crit buff fire mage had
so fire mages always got spears after that
uneven scarab
left ledge
yeah i mean
edgy zenith
I just got transmitter finally, does the orb not always spawn NE anymore?
uneven scarab
Golden child babygirl
left ledge
they announced they were gonna remove trinkets scaling off of talent damage amps
but then only removed it for sub rogue
edgy zenith
seemed like the traveling orb (not the platform) spawned SW instead of NE tonight
uneven scarab
edgy zenith
also, 4.5min into fight, am I sending mandate or transmitter with that set of CDs?
sims are saying to use mandate, but I don't believe that
left ledge
seemed like the traveling orb (not the platform) spawned SW instead of NE tonigh...
it spawns NE of where you're facing
not actually NE
edgy zenith
it spawns NE of where you're facing
yeah, I know. it spawned SW of me tonight on one pull on Rashanan
maybe because I was too close to edge?
left ledge
if you stand too close to the edge
it spawns a little off to the side
and travels in an arc
edgy zenith
kk
any mandate and transmitter users? 4.5m cd set help
both trinkets come up same time
sims say to send mandate instead of transmitter for that CD set
left ledge
popping cds = transmitter
edgy zenith
but I'm not sure if that's just robot being stupid
left ledge
are you simming 5 mins or something
royal zinc
could sum1 help a brand new rogue and pvp scrub with my opener? i'm using palumor's
nimble burrow
lets goooooo
left ledge
could sum1 help a brand new rogue and pvp scrub with my opener? i'm using palumo...
are you asking for a pve rotation
royal zinc
no pvp
sterile kiln
lets goooooo
I dread looting that trinket
sullen hare
Forgive me for the poorly cropped screenshot
All of those actions happen more or less at the same time
nimble burrow
oh my bad!
spark tusk
when should we use transmitter?
you can consider using it with Flag specifically for transmitter, as it gives you time to figure out where the ball is when you use it
sweet summit
fellas no flame i might be big dumb
any reason why my cold blood sectec macro doesnt work ?
it was working fine
noticed 2 days ago id press it it would send sectec but not coldblood
and yes i am specced into coldblood
pliant topaz
either the macros not on your stealth bar or you went sin fatebound into the inevitability hero talent (the one with cold blood) and swapped bac
sweet summit
oh shit u think it broke when i switched to DS ?
short radish
yeah probably stealthbar
wispy bolt
TT says 149k. Hits for 108k. No buffs, no find weakness, nothing
unless the combo point WA is fucked, i hit with all 7
thats if we trust the TT
short radish
we dont trust the TT
wispy bolt
edited cause i screwed the number. But thats a 37% difference. very close to what the buff said
wait its phys damage, is armor 38%?
and does this dummy have armor
brave gyro
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
distant marlin
Hi, what is recommended m+ build after patch?
wispy bolt
Assassination rogue
alpine wraith
deathstalker something like this
still pending more reviews
maybe tornado instead of veilt but tornado is quite annoying
cloud rover
Assassination rogue
Based and true
wispy bolt
1.7 mil vs 1.1 mil avg. literal S vs F. it’s a no brainer
alpine wraith
sub is also super group dependang
if you dont have a shaman and tank does not pull well
you go so bad
i've had 1.1m to 1.9m in the same key level
same key
that being tirna/dawnbreaker ones i get invited to only lately
strong shoal
<@256188402116984832> is an ape
True and I agree
oak idol
that being tirna/dawnbreaker ones i get invited to only lately
Haven't seen a sub rogue for ages
Don't think they're real
vale lagoon
Don't think they're real
none of our tooltips are real that's for sure
daring raptor
Haven't seen a sub rogue for ages
I don't play anything but sub right now in Raid
oak idol
I don't play anything but sub right now in Raid
I guess you're not real either..
keen dome
We're ghost in the machines casting SecTec.
cloud rover
We're ghost in the machines casting SecTec.
Awakening the Machine?
Are you ready
for slow 20 waves?
alpine wraith
oh true
keen dome
for slow 20 waves?
it's great for doing other stuff!
I'm gonna keep doing it until mount
alpine wraith
you mean my 23 enchanting mules?
cloud rover
Yes
cloud rover
Insane
keen dome
Haha, nice
And yeah, the crests own because Delves give the spark halves. So you can very quickly get a dude geared in multiple 619 pieces
My second rogue was in three 619 pieces the second he hit 80, it was hilarious. Everything else? 560 or less.
sly shore
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
round latch
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
rugged moon
Are there any notes for sub changes next week?
sinful finch
Can anyone tell me if they are making Sub anymore viable in M+ in 11.05? Love sub, playing sin at the moment.
alpine wraith
nope
void hound
yeah the notes say: play sin bozo
vale pine
Are there any notes for sub changes next week?
subtlety specific
outside of this, we get a new talent
keen dome
We should have a moment of silence for Sepsis surviving so long for some strange reason.
the little talent that we wish wouldn't
sacred yarrow
it was just fluff, what else would they add there /s
vale pine
🙃
sinful finch
So basically, sub will be ST masters again in 11.05?
lilac stag
Master of none.
vale pine
So basically, sub will be ST masters again in 11.05?
the changes are a small buff
but its unclear if you can bring this extra sim dps to the raid
its like 3% dps
in sims
sinful finch
Oh….. man this is so lackluster
near rivet
the state of bugs will tell
vale pine
!dot5
wicked joltBOT
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:
- Talent diversity
- Defensives
- Gameplay
This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.
vale pine
^ is the current tl;dr
sinful finch
What an actual shame. What is happening to rogue……
near rivet
in .5 sub will prob be way worse in court, right?
alpine wraith
not way worse but a bit worse
sinful finch
Yeah, outlaw has bugs that still are yet to be addressed. I mean I like Sin but I wish Sub was more… you know…. The main spec
near rivet
we are missing some amp windows, right?
i mean, we could play them more with memedust
alpine wraith
not really
actually if you exploit some things on the krangle dances you can do more dmg now on the amp
sinful finch
the other 2 specs get a small update
I feel that Rogue has very little to next to no love this season. Whereas classes that don’t need the help. Get full reworks twice in a season 😅
alpine wraith
but i will have to be there to try it
vale pine
I feel that Rogue has very little to next to no love this season. Whereas classe...
i don't know
alpine wraith
cant really do that one on ptr
vale pine
i think the updates are good qol changes for the other 2 specs
near rivet
by krangle dances you mean tfd?
vale pine
so don't think its bad
near rivet
we wont hit x2 sectec in one amp window, thats for sure
sinful finch
so don't think its bad
Well, I agree a buff is a buff. But Outlaw should at this point be deleted and rehashed combat rogue should be reintroduced. Sin is in a good place and has been all season so far. Sub is just…. I don’t know….
sinful finch
I always had the feeling outlaw should have been a ranged rogue class. Like a gunslinger.
sinful finch
that they didn't re-work KS
Yeah 100
vale pine
because its a core component of Trickster
near rivet
i know im weird, bbut i kinda like KS
vale pine
I don't think all 3 specs having BF is a problem
near rivet
when i outlaw occassionally
vale pine
i don't think re-stealth is a problem
sinful finch
Trickster looks on paper really fun. But KS is an absolute bummer
plush roost
i know im weird, bbut i kinda like KS
I would like it if it wasn't hella bugged and also gives my camera a stroke
sinful finch
i don't think re-stealth is a problem
Class fantasy wise yes. But from a component point of view, no.
vale pine
Class fantasy wise yes. But from a component point of view, no.
its one of the things people rly overestimate in impact
see
current season is tough
and as such people pull smaller
near rivet
im not aware of the bugs, but camera is not an argument for me, never had issue with that jumps
vale pine
so re-stealthing isn't a big issue
vale pine
im not aware of the bugs, but camera is not an argument for me, never had issue ...
camera is def. something that could be better
it feels weir to have shadowstep like camera jumps
even feels weird on shadowstep
sinful finch
I’m not sure. In +10’s we are pulling quite high. +11 and above yeah it’s a little scuffed.
vale pine
you can typically re-stealth well between packs
and a easy way to make a spec less reliant on restealths
is to give a lower vanish cooldown
sinful finch
When crackshot works as intended yeah it will probably be pretty decent
vale pine
could even move all stealth benefits to vanish
sinful finch
Also Subterfuge is going to work with Take em by Surprise
So that’s going to be a bonus
vale pine
11.0.5 is a big qol patch
so yes
it won't fix core problems
e.g. Killing spree did not get reworked
sinful finch
It will make dying whilst adrenaline is on CD less taxing
vale pine
but a lot of good updates
its just that subtleties "qol" updates
did not work out
and i think its difficult to sit down and think
"that did not work out well"
sinful finch
Do I think that outlaw will be competitive in higher keys? Hmmmm depends on the comp. But, at this present time I would say 9/10 you’d take sin rogue for prio damage.
vale pine
i think assassiantions tuning
and benefits
make it rly hard for any other rogue spec to see play in m+
sinful finch
Yeah. This is the problem with having 3 of the same variation spec
clever delta
wait what, the patch is next week
vale pine
Yeah. This is the problem with having 3 of the same variation spec
the problem is they don't do the same
else you would just pick your personal favorite
but thats actually good design usually
sinful finch
I would have much preferred Outlaw to be a mid to short range gunslinger spec. Meets the fantasy and also splits the variation.
vale pine
to have specs do diffrent niches
its just that the balance of what niches each spec has
and how much applications these niches have
was poorly balanced out
sinful finch
RTB is to imo bad class design.
vale pine
for m+
outlaw with a more flat damage profile
can be rly good
if the numbers are there
for raid, we have diffrent problems
rtb isn't as much a problem as you think
near rivet
can it be even more flat?
vale pine
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
plush roost
can it be even more flat?
🤔 roll the paper? Can we go flatter?
sinful finch
Sim baits on outlaw are real. The chances of hitting these numbers without pretty consistent RNG is lackluster. Plus now KiR is basically the way to go you are rolling even less….
plush roost
RTB is to imo bad class design.
Out of curiosity, how much outlaw have you played? The more you play it the less rng it feels
near rivet
SS procs is the real rng
vale pine
but i think the problem is, you will be sometimes below
near rivet
not some meme dice
vale pine
and thats what you will remember
plush roost
With CTO being such good chance, KiR is almost always 4+ buffs so its pretty consistent
sinful finch
Out of curiosity, how much outlaw have you played? The more you play it the less...
A lot. It doesn’t matter how it feels. Data and consistency says otherwise
vale pine
the data don't say otherwise
its just that raid design is not a flat
target dummy like experience
you have more constraints
some fights have burst aoe, so classes that do a lot of it are good
some fights have damage amp phases, classes with burst do good
there is spread cleave
etc.
outlaw has due to not rtb
but this node
if you complain about outlaw
that should be your complain
not RTB
sinful finch
The only real boss in the Mythic raid I have switched to outlaw on request has been brood due to the damage profile. Other than that. Sin will be the prio.
vale pine
well yes, sin is currently also better tuned than others
plush roost
The only real boss in the Mythic raid I have switched to outlaw on request has b...
Why did they request that? Sin is kinda banging on that fight even its boss dam, unless you're struggling to target swap and burn worms I guess
vale pine
if we only discuss power level
there is currently no reason to ever spec out of assassination
reguardless of content
sinful finch
Why did they request that? Sin is kinda banging on that fight even its boss dam,...
Burn worms. Heroic you could literally run cleave builds to essentially not worry about target swapping. But, on mythic target swapping on Sin is lackluster mid fight. So, outlaw has a better profile of swapping targets and not having hold two minute cd’s for an add.
plush roost
Ah i figured that was the case. I do think its strange they'd make you swap when thats better suited to things like fdk though
But hey, maybe the comp needs it
My guild is just getting into p3 of brood so I'm probably gonna experience the same thing xd
sinful finch
Depends on the composition right. I mean, a friend of mine cleared it in his mythic guild being on sin quite easily but our comp is different and “does damage” in different ways
Not saying it cannot be done in our comp. In fact, I could have easily target swapped if necessary on Sin but I see why the RL needed me to change
vale pine
but thats not a bad thing
plush roost
Yeah makes sense
vale pine
having outlaw as a option for the fight is good
so it kinda shows how niches and diffrences should play out
it is just that some specs might need more niches
then more reasons you put to switch spec, then better
just need to make sure that no spec has a niche which is too good always
plush roost
It would be really nice if they didn't make haste good on 2 specs but useless on 1 though xd
Sucks gearing for all 3 specs rn
vale pine
it has also other problems
Haste is more recently a very common factor
in raid and dungeon mechanics
e.g. you have sark with a big haste buff
had a massive amount of haste in pandaria remix
now have a affix with haste
sinful finch
I wish people would have told me about the BTE bug before I swapped 🤣
vale pine
so being bad with hast gives you the problem that you can't utilize these buffs well
your benefits from BL are reduced
and you are a bad PI target
it is in a sense a net negative
sinful finch
Would you agree there is a great deal of discourse between rogue players at the moment about the specs
vale pine
it is similar to the old problem of subtlety
which is terrible in cleaave
so any time you have 2 or 3 target cleave
you couldn't bring it
means even when subtlety was the dominant raid spec
plush roost
Thank god for trickster
vale pine
you had active reasons to switch to sin/outlaw
problem is people precive it diffrently
so depending on who you talk to
the asumption/discussion might have diffrent outcomes
iirc it was in the #assassination chat i was having the discussion in SL
and a common response was
sinful finch
Thank god for trickster
You know what, I really wish Trickster was a thing… the KS is mad
vale pine
"There are no real world scenarios cleave is relevant in"
pointing out that there are no raid fights with 2 or 3 target cleave and wherent for years
and how mythic+ will always pull more than 5
if thats the case or not
sinful finch
If they fix KS i will probably main OL
vale pine
i can't tell, looking back i also don't remember any raid fight in SL/DF that has 2 target cleave...
(i forgot experiments)
livid hawk
Hi. Where do I find the upcoming sub rogue changes that I hear change our cooldown reduction talent?
plush roost
Check pins
sinful finch
Are there people that even play sub in M+ on a level?
fallow nimbus
Every tier has the same style of fights
vale pine
Hi. Where do I find the upcoming sub rogue changes that I hear change our cooldo...
the removal of dust does
but otuside of that
basically: we get a new talent in the general tree
plush roost
Are there people that even play sub in M+ on a level?
Casualaddict played sub in a 13 arakara earlier lol
Its pretty deadge rn tho
vale pine
supercharger, it adds combo points
it does not give more combo points than ER
in fact less
but
we get it during cooldowns, and they add on top of our combo points
so if you finish on 7 it would count as 9
sinful finch
Casualaddict played sub in a 13 arakara earlier lol
Its pretty deadge rn tho
Still suffering from energy drought?
fallow nimbus
Minigame gone is the good part
livid hawk
Thanks man! Are we excited about it?
vale pine
!dot5
wicked joltBOT
The power level of the spec stays about the same but the changes are generally a downgrade.
Things that get worse in the patch:
- Talent diversity
- Defensives
- Gameplay
This does not meant he patch is bad, just that it isn't a great update to Subtlety.
plush roost
Still suffering from energy drought?
Yes but thats subs design tbh
vale pine
we can be excited about the new talent
but overall, we will see
still working on the sim with eleem and armin
sinful finch
Precise Cuts now increases Blade Flurry’s damage by 4% per missing target below its max (was 2%).
Do you think this will be used?
livid hawk
Ah okay. Do you know where I can find the patch notes for it? I seem to be bad at googling for this exact round of notes.
brisk onyx
wait, so the changes we got in 11.0.5 have been discontinued?
plush roost
Precise Cuts now increases Blade Flurry’s damage by 4% per missing target below ...
Still a useless talent is what the outlaw boys are saying
vale pine
Do you think this will be used?
possibly, but think its easier to discuss it in #outlaw
plush roost
^
brisk onyx
What we see from the PTR now is the final version?
vale pine
solo/zac/etc likely did more research on the topic
vale pine
What we see from the PTR now is the final version?
it isn't labled release candiadate
but seems like it is
sinful finch
What we see from the PTR now is the final version?
4 days to go. I’d say it is
brisk onyx
sacred yarrow
vale pine
5 days you mean
plush roost
Tbh this feels like the actual release patch for tww. A lot of the half baked specs and hero talents got updated
Sub is just downbad
vale pine
we will manage
sinful finch
5 days you mean
Corrected
plush roost
Sub always finds a way
vale pine
kinda
sacred yarrow
there are dozens of us!
sinful finch
Rogue always finds a way
plush roost
I remember people doomed on sub during early access - heroic week
Then it was swinging through anyway
vale pine
i mean
what you mean with swinging through
is
subtlety is currently the least played dps spec in game
ornate wind
people always act like anything outside of the top 3 specs are unplayable, I just ignore them and keep doing fine
plush roost
Hey i didnt say it was popular, i said it was good lol
vale pine
it is also probably the worse or one of the worse m+ specs
livid hawk
But pvp it has its relevance. Esp in the new blitz mode
ornate wind
sub in pvp is just always going to be good
livid hawk
Hope they manage to tune it separately
vale pine
which was rly good in pvp
ornate wind
doesn't matter if our damage is complete crap, we just have so much control. And our damage is, in fact, not complete crap
sinful finch
There is a lot more than damage that makes up a tier list. But that’s what people see. They go on warcraft logs. See their class is low on damage. But they don’t deep dive and find out that their class is low parsing.
vale pine
doesn't matter if our damage is complete crap, we just have so much control. And...
yes, but we get nerfed
so we lose defensives
and offensives
e.g. soothing darkness is now roughly half of what it did before
sinful finch
Rogue itself is not in a bad spot. The benefit of having 3 dps specs is at least one of them is going to perform okayish.
vale pine
Rogue itself is not in a bad spot. The benefit of having 3 dps specs is at least...
to re-iterate on it
i am not concerned about damage, but gameplay
plush roost
I just hope they have a backup planned for sub if these changes don't work out (they don't have one)
They look sketchy gameplay wise I agree
livid hawk
But would be nice to have cooldowns separated from vanish, so vanish is vanish as an independent ability. Just hoped everything around it is tuned accordingly
vale pine
Rogue itself is not in a bad spot. The benefit of having 3 dps specs is at least...
we haven't had this big diffrencess between specs we see atm in a while
sinful finch
Half the time what you see on Warcraft logs is completely fabricated and saturated by those who have overinflated their parses to give the impression the class is doing better than what it is.
vale pine
i mean sure
rogue is good as long as one spec is good
i just don't like the line of argumentation
because what you mean is not this
but
that its irrelevant if a spec is worse in gameplay, design or tuning because others exist
plush roost
Half the time what you see on Warcraft logs is completely fabricated and saturat...
That's not really true but go off you can just take the average top 50 of each spec and get a good idea of whats good, bad, and situational
vale pine
heroic/normal possibly
if you look at 90%tile
or 100%tile
the top logs will have very unrealistic kill timers
for most of the playerbase
and if you kill a boss in 2 min less
you will do more dps
ornate wind
I think I just lean more towards subtlety because I'm a ff14 player mainly and it feels very similar to their class design
vale pine
but it is true that warcraftlogs
ornate wind
1 min burst window, maintenance and spam dps in between, I'm comfy with this
plush roost
I to be clear, am just referring to mythic. Heroic and normal parses have very different results on kill timers and group skill
vale pine
falsifies the statistic
tho
you can just look at popualrity
to get a better picture
sinful finch
That's not really true but go off you can just take the average top 50 of each s...
I take what I see on warcraft logs as a pinch of salt. Sim your character. Try to achieve maximum uptime on the boss and ultimately 100% your rotation and CD’s
alpine wraith
than enha
so idk
tried to find a sub on sik ran
he was 722
our top log btw
in hc
in M it is even funnier
plush roost
Yeah that fight is god awful for sub tho
alpine wraith
nexus princess is worse
and those 2 are the st fights
so where else can you see st
leaden prairie
alpine wraith
rasha nan is even funnier from specs that get to execute
keen dome
Love to find a new, strange bug. Weekly dungeon quest just refused to give me Reputation and decided to give me the repeat completion rewards.
plush roost
I take what I see on warcraft logs as a pinch of salt. Sim your character. Try t...
I mean sure, a parse is meaningless when on tindral people are mashing BP instead of evis boss ofc
lilac stag
You can look at parses for boss dmg
plush roost
But being able to discern inflated logs from legitimate ones is a valuable tool, so wcl is not completely useless
plush roost
You can look at parses for boss dmg
And also this