Yep, I'll make sure to update the raid portion with the boys :)
#assassination
limber lion
teal bloom
Had no idea you could evasion those spinny bois in de other side. I just always assume evasion works against nothing except for if something is meleeing you lol.
dim ledge
Anyone know a streamer with vods of CN sin gameplay?
azure bronze
Anyone know a streamer with vods of CN sin gameplay?
Seliathan probably
scenic rivet
hey guys just read through the wowhead guide and was asking myself why open with mutilate and not ambush?
warm parcel
Anyone know a streamer with vods of CN sin gameplay?
Theres also #rogue-streamers
So you may be able to pick player of the level you like
And ambush loses to mut for a variety of reasons
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
scenic rivet
thank you very much
dim ledge
ty
Also what’s the best use of vanish with master assassin?
Is it full combo points: vanish envenom mut envenom ?
That is what someone told me once but I see people not always do it in logs
warm parcel
At the very base level its to get 3 direct dmg spells cast during it
Be it env mut env
Or mut env mut
Or mut mut env
Just dont bleed during it
scenic rivet
but u should still use vanish with vendetta since it has the same cd right?
dim ledge
thanks appreciate it
warm parcel
Yes
Vanish and ven go hand in hand
Doesnt have to be same global
But vsnish during it
scenic rivet
fervent rune
Crafting doomblade now that I’m switching to assa. Saw that it might not go in gloves because of tier gear
winged basin
Yeah have 3 options to put doom blade on next patch 
azure bronze
and then blizzard not adding to option to swap your legendary that you already crafted to a different slot
azure bronze
So what should I be looking to put it on?
If the raid gems will be good most likely the cloak which will be added in 9.1
winged basin
Why would the do that? That would mean you don’t have to do their personally crafted experience choreghast
limber lion
Anyone know a streamer with vods of CN sin gameplay?
I stream but I'm a nobody so I don't have any vods.
keen cairn
limber lion
But I might stream our Wednesday reclears if you're interested in seeing that. Coms are in Finnish though, but I'll tune em down
warm parcel
honest breach
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
limber lion
Actually, I probably won't have comms up now that I think about it. 
limber lion
Crafting doomblade now that I’m switching to assa. Saw that it might not go in g...
Currently the bis slot is gloves
If you want to play sin in raids now, you might have to recraft in 9.1 as most of us are.
But it really depends, we are still not 100% sure what is going to happen
Balancing and tuning is still a question, as well as the whole domination gem slot thing.
Because we have a way to infinitely farm Soul Ash, I doubt we'll have a way to refund legendaries or switch slots.
So that'll suck, but it is what it is.
fervent rune
If you want to play sin in raids now, you might have to recraft in 9.1 as most o...
Still raiding some but mostly done this tier. I think I’m going to just wait and see
limber lion
Yep. We still don't have the release date for 9.1
Could be next week, could be 2 months.
fervent rune
Unfortunately
stoic needle
Technically it's not infinite ash
There are diminishing returns down to 0
On repeat runs
limber lion
I heard it's 100% the first time and 60% the following runs.
stoic needle
Fuu was saying a few days ago that it continues diminishing
vestal wren
someone in here did say it diminishes by 40% per run
i have no official note on it nor did i test it
limber lion
Wouldn't it technically mean infinite ash then if it dimishes by 40% per run.
Even at 1 soul ash a 40% dr means 0.6SA which would translate to 1 SA again
vestal wren
assuming repeat run also get the 50% increased gain beforehand:
again, this is under the assumption that you have 40% dr every run
limber lion
Yeah who knows. I just heard that you get 40% less Soul Ash from subsequent runs, referring to getting the full 60% from all subsequent runs and that it wouldn't dr below that.
Needs testing.
vestal wren
its a lot better if its static on all subsequent runs
worthy moth
why?
why they have a fucking wow analyzis for the entire community and not for specific specs?
lost horizon
Cause people who know the specs need to keep it up to date
Whoever they had must've stopped contributing
gusty mirage
It’s meta now...
worthy moth
#AssassinationForLife
gusty mirage
Wow analyzer just sucks
limber lion
It's really hard to automatically analyze stuff for sin
worthy moth
playing assassination since 2007
worthy moth
ah man, its so basic
limber lion
Not really
Like the thing doesn't understand holding cds on Sludge/Sire/SLG
And then complains that you miss casts
vestal wren
why they have a fucking wow analyzis for the entire community and not for specif...
wow analyzer is a volunteer project, if something is not supported feel free to reach out to them and offer your help
gusty mirage
It’s things you could find out on your own by looking at logs anyway. If I remember correctly all that site ever did was mention that you were overcapping CP, finishing at weird CPs, and capping energy
limber lion
They don't understand that you cap energy because you have to stop dps completely at some points
Yeh, it's not reliable
vestal wren
It’s things you could find out on your own by looking at logs anyway. If I remem...
the site could do more, but as mentioned without a active maintainer its not and iirc it does not have that
limber lion
Don't use Wowanalyzer.
limber lion
the site could do more, but as mentioned without a active maintainer its not and...
Correct
worthy moth
some what should i use it
limber lion
No
worthy moth
so*
vestal wren
if you want to use wowanalyzer you can start to maintian the assassination module e.g. and bring it up to date etc.
limber lion
Me, Whispyr and Weak do log reviews.
vestal wren
if you don't have the expertise or motivation to do so its better to use wcl
worthy moth
u guys get paid for it?
worthy moth
i would pay to ppl check my logs and see whats wrong
limber lion
Just post your logs here and we'll help out
vestal wren
you can just post the logs in here and ask for help, we usually have some regulars check them
limber lion
Like I said
Me, Weak and Whispyr often do log reviews
Some others as well here and there.
vestal wren
just something straight up, even tho it might not be relevant for #assassination given the ease of execution
if you lack the base understanding of the spec, don't expect people to type out everything that is written in guides
but expect to be refered to guides
its a very prominent issue of #subtlety that people get often angry about
sonic schooner
I'm too shy to let u watch my logs 😳
gusty mirage
I'm too shy to let u watch my logs 😳
I already saw them 
keep on slaying it out there
vestal wren
so 60% on all repeat runs?
red pagoda
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2Fk7NQ9DcwxfmpWv#fight=5&type=damage-done can some1 look at this?
vestal wren
nice
limber lion
vestal wren
oh nvm
vestal wren
its 885
warm parcel
I hate ptr 
vestal wren
ye
you only mean one wing
current value is 570 ptr has it on 50% higher so 885
is 3rd run also 172?
warm parcel
yes
vestal wren
so 100% -> ~20% each run after
limber lion
Yep pretty much
vestal wren
or ~30% if you assume the '50%' increase only apply to the first run of each wing
You'll receive 50% more Soul Ash on your first Torghast run
^ i refer to this wording
limber lion
I mean getting 570 per run weekly currently vs getting around 1140 once and 300 per run infinitely after in 9.1 is a good deal
vestal wren
** first Torghast run** specifically
is both wings 885 first run or is 2nd wing 570?
vale marten
is venthyr soulbind swapping for potion duration fixed on the ptr?
sonic schooner
🤔
sonic schooner
I didn't understand a single thing about your torghast maths
Probably too dumb to understand 😔
regal cedar
So I’m looking to run assassination and outlaw for raiding/mythic. I just dinged 60 so I have a few legendaries to craft. It sounds like celerity for outlaw should stay on the same item, so I could craft that, but should I hold off on crafting doomblade or zoldyck?
I’m necro btw
vestal wren
current soul ash you get for a run on live is 570
on ptr you get 50% more on your first run so thats 885
repeat runs give 172 (whats 30% of 570 or 20% of 885)
red pagoda
but you also have a chance to get a socket or conduit upgrade from torghast, right?
sonic schooner
What first run? First run of every week?
sonic schooner
Shit sounds tough to understand if even you struggle with it 
And repeated runs mean we can spam torghast for soul ash?
vestal wren
9.1 will make us run torghast again quite a bit :/
ruby birch
It is per wing, you'll get the big soul ash amount twice per week
vestal wren
And repeated runs mean we can spam torghast for soul ash?
you can, but at a 20% value of the initial run it seems not very efficient
also keep in mind that the new soul ash currency will not drop on repeat runs
ruby birch
Instead of doing repeat runs on same char, do it on an alt and send over soul ash
sonic schooner
I kinda like torghast because it means sub and big evis 
vestal wren
but you likely want to re-craft your legendary items in 9.1 because of domination sockets 🙂
odd hazel
luckily doom got the cloak spot
or un-lucky becuase i kind of wanted to play around with dashing
ruby birch
Where are domination sockets
stoic needle
Head shoulders chest gloves boots
odd hazel
if they get slots atleast
stoic needle
zoldyck is safe 
stoic needle
Gloves and bracers
regal cedar
But is the necro version looking promising?
stoic needle
Sucks that all of these are the worst possible slots to have legendaries on stat budget wise
stoic needle
But is the necro version looking promising?
It got nerfed hard, we'll see if it ends up being useable or not
stoic needle
better get that 226 :^)
Perish
odd hazel
its still super good for outlaw i believe
regal cedar
Outlaw sub said it’s not anymore
regal cedar
Well sounds good, I’ll craft zoldyck and celerity and hold off on the rest til 9.1
stoic needle
We might be the only class with 3/4 useless covenant legendaries
limber lion
or un-lucky becuase i kind of wanted to play around with dashing
Same.
Dashing is pretty boring as well, but idk, just slight variance would have been fun
stoic needle
Another tier of doomblade 📉
gusty mirage
It got nerfed hard, we'll see if it ends up being useable or not
What was “hard” about the nerf? 1 less cleave spike?
stoic needle
Yeah I mean that's pretty big
gusty mirage
I mean it still gives 5 charges and hits 2 targets
frigid kestrel
Sims will tell the truth about it
gusty mirage
Doesn’t seem like a hard nerf by any means
frigid kestrel
do we have any hard numbers on the changes yet?
stoic needle
No
gusty mirage
I know it’s a big nerf for outlaw because less flurry damage
But it seems like it’ll be just fine for assassination
stoic needle
In my mind the extra spikes are the majority of the benefit, not the extra charges
frigid kestrel
Then we really dont know if its a hard nerf or not, with the exception of OL
quaint carbon
do you run CT for TOP? or more like a ST ish setup ?
frigid kestrel
In my mind the extra spikes are the majority of the benefit, not the extra charg...
Extra charges are for OL, but fo SIn it should be just fine
sour wraith
What was “hard” about the nerf? 1 less cleave spike?
Every single bonespike was flurrying though, so they're losing out on one extra flurry hit and since it does nothing in pure st the aoe benefit might not outweigh that negative in something like raid or m+
stoic needle
I just think it's dumb because it didn't deserve to be nerfed in the first place
frigid kestrel
Faster/More CP for spreading bleeds faster
stoic needle
do you run CT for TOP? or more like a ST ish setup ?
You can run pb but CT is still good
gusty mirage
Every single bonespike was flurrying though, so they're losing out on one extra ...
Sounds like not an assassination problem to me.
frigid kestrel
I just think it's dumb because it didn't deserve to be nerfed in the first place
No i think they should have just stopped BF interaction with it.... it was still pretty OP all things considering tho
stoic needle
No it wasn't
sour wraith
Sounds like not an assassination problem to me.
True 
stoic needle
We still didn't do more damage than ele shaman and fire mage or WW
gusty mirage
No i think they should have just stopped BF interaction with it.... it was still...
That would’ve been a smart fix but this is blizzard
frigid kestrel
No it wasn't
Legit did most of my damage in PTR. It wasnt broken, but it was uber strong
stoic needle
God forbid rogue has something good
gusty mirage
I mean outlaw was doing like 13k-15k sustain in aoe with a target cap. That’s kinda busted lol
sour wraith
They could've just made the 2ndary and tertiary spikes do like 75% damage or something
tight ginkgo
The damage of a spike itself is pretty good, is it not?
gusty mirage
The damage of a spike itself is pretty good, is it not?
Yeah
frigid kestrel
I mean outlaw was doing like 13k-15k sustain in aoe with a target cap. That’s ki...
As Sin i was doing 12k
but then again, alot of that was Plumage as well
id assume thats gonna get hit hard soon too
stoic needle
I mean outlaw was doing like 13k-15k sustain in aoe with a target cap. That’s ki...
No it's not, considering sub is doing 20k with just finality, and ele shaman does more
frigid kestrel
No it's not, considering sub is doing 20k with just finality, and ele shaman doe...
I havnt tested Sub yet, their changes made them that good in AOE now?
frigid kestrel
They just trash on 2 - 3 target cleave now Ye?
stoic needle
Actually sorry, that was with obedience, not even finality
So with finality it would be more
Yeah they're trash on cleave but their aoe is good
frigid kestrel
ST is good to ye?
gusty mirage
No it's not, considering sub is doing 20k with just finality, and ele shaman doe...
Is ele sham earthquake capped?
frigid kestrel
Sheettt. they might be the go to for places like Halls or NW where you can do some super pulls.
sour wraith
Is ele sham earthquake capped?
Only chain lightning afaik
drowsy coral
Is ele sham earthquake capped?
It’s capped to 20+ target or something , so yeah basically uncapped
frigid kestrel
o and DOS
limber lion
Sub actually feels mega awful on 2 targets
gusty mirage
5 target cap with 15k sustain in aoe is kinda busted. And Sub has 3 more targets so
limber lion
Whereas Assa is at its peak on 2T
gusty mirage
This is world of magecraft, and it always has been
Once we accept that we’ll be happier
frigid kestrel
Sub actually feels mega awful on 2 targets
Ye, i always struggled uber hard on the first boss in TOP when i was playing Sub early xpac
gusty mirage
Council as sub is why I switched outlaw. It was absolutely miserable
frigid kestrel
I had fun with Council as Sin
stoic needle
I really don't think it's op when almost every other meta class does more damage
drowsy coral
Huntsman as sub omegalul
gusty mirage
Other meta classes have uncapped abilities
Idk why that’s hard to factor in for you
limber lion
Council is fun on Sin. It gets a bit hectic towards the end.
stoic needle
Capped or uncapped is irrelevant, all that matters is total output
gusty mirage
Okay man
You’re right I’m wrong
Earthquake hitting 16 targets while bladeflurry hits 4 additional = irrelevant
stoic needle
I just think it's weird that were the only pure dps class that's not allowed to do good damage
gusty mirage
You’re right
sonic schooner
blade rush uncapped 
frigid kestrel
I just think it's weird that were the only pure dps class that's not allowed to ...
????
stoic needle
Why does deathspike get nerfed but other classes are allowed to do more damage and don't really get touched
frigid kestrel
Arent their a few "Pure DPS" classes in game that do less then us in M+?
stoic needle
Which ones?
frigid kestrel
Lock and Hunter
bleak sun
Demono is fine hard to setup dépending mostly of tank but fine
drowsy coral
If you get outdps by a lock in M+, you should prob reroll
sonic schooner
you forgot how deleted are boomies rn 🙄
limber lion
They are not a pure dps class.
sonic schooner
what is really a pure dps class? Rogues are bringing shroud and few CCs
frigid kestrel
Like there is only 4 "Pure DPS" classes in game and i think we win out in everything except Mage. Hunter may be close IDK dont see many of them in pugs but ive also never been beaten by one.
limber lion
what is really a pure dps class? Rogues are bringing shroud and few CCs
A class with only dps specs
limber lion
Druids have 2 dps, tank and heal
Pure dps classes are rogue, hunters, warlock, mage etc
frigid kestrel
you forgot how deleted are boomies rn 🙄
Honestly i cant remember the last time a Boomie beat me in overall, and if they do its usually not by much at all. Rogues are in a safe space in my Opinion
limber lion
But it doesn't really matter, a spec can still be op even if the other specs are bad or if it's the only dps spec od the class.
Doesn't really matter.
vestal wren
Black powder going brr
i didn't feel the brr when using it in the new dungeon on ptr
fallen arch
Honestly i cant remember the last time a Boomie beat me in overall, and if they ...
Altho they bring cr, trees, aoe silence, roots, knockbacks
frigid kestrel
Altho they bring cr, trees, aoe silence, roots, knockbacks
Ye thats why they are taken
limber lion
Honestly i cant remember the last time a Boomie beat me in overall, and if they ...
But comparing personal experience to top tier gameplay is not really fair either.
fallen arch
Yeah and they damn well should for those reasons, and convoke
limber lion
I'm also #1 dps in all of my dungeons most of the time
But that doesn't mean sin is the best spec in the game.
frail fossil
Honestly i cant remember the last time a Boomie beat me in overall, and if they ...
loads of awful boomies and mage in keys
i always beat mages when i pug doesn't mean outlaw is better
frigid kestrel
But comparing personal experience to top tier gameplay is not really fair either...
Thats completely fair, but even looking at most of the streamers i watch its the same story. Im seeing it in general (although i could still be wrong im just posting my experiences)
drowsy coral
Plus there's a lot of pull you're not risking in Pugs
frail fossil
ur personnal experience is sadly not a accurate depiction of class strength
red pagoda
i always beat mages when i pug doesn't mean outlaw is better
could also be that in pugs the tank doesnt pull well for mages
drowsy coral
If you play in a team and you're outdps'ing your mage, it's time to switch team
limber lion
It's really dungeon specific as well.
frigid kestrel
ur personnal experience is sadly not a accurate depiction of class strength
I know this, im jusy legit stating what in seeing in general.
vestal wren
like don't get me wrong, black powder is good on sustained aoe, but it still seems like you depend a lot on the pull size
limber lion
FM will do, by design, less overall in TOP than DOS
frail fossil
I know this, im jusy legit stating what in seeing in general.
yeah i get that, that's totally fine hope i didn't sound aggressive here
frail fossil
could also be that in pugs the tank doesnt pull well for mages
i'm tired of this argument
combust is a 1min cd, if mages cant time it decently in pug they're bad
frigid kestrel
Not saying what i see if all knowing or fact, im a pleb whos just slightly less of a pleb then the pool of players im allowed to play with.
clear shadow
is there a reason why raidbots is telling me to go with this crit vers neck? i simmed stat weight's and its telling me to go more haste and i do have a haste mastery neck https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/r7fHmRwwWn6f3LDStgSXS9
limber lion
i'm tired of this argument
It's a fact though. Some tanks pull "safe" by only doing small packs
frigid kestrel
yeah i get that, that's totally fine hope i didn't sound aggressive here
Na you Gucci i never had a problem with anyone in RH being aggressive towards me.
limber lion
Instead of chaining several packs to get most value out of comb
frail fossil
It's a fact though. Some tanks pull "safe" by only doing small packs
if u literally pull 2 mobs by 2 yes
clear shadow
its also telling me to go vers socket im so confused
frail fossil
but in dungeons like mist the tank is literally not in control of most pull size
limber lion
Not actually using it when the tank pulls big is on the mage.
stoic needle
is there a reason why raidbots is telling me to go with this crit vers neck? i s...
Because it's more dps. Stop simming stat weights and trust top gear
drowsy coral
if u literally pull 2 mobs by 2 yes
No one does that, he's probably talking about pulls such as HoA first pull. In pug you do the classic one, if you're organize you take a big one with shard and blast
limber lion
No one does that, he's probably talking about pulls such as HoA first pull. In p...
You'd be surprised.
clear shadow
im sitting at 17% haste now is that ok?
stoic needle
Yes
limber lion
im sitting at 17% haste now is that ok?
Yes, just follow the sim
frail fossil
i mean i dont understand why mages get a pass for shit dps cuz of tanks when tons of other class have most of their dmg aroudn a big cd which is longer than combust and dont complain about this lol
clear shadow
alright thanks
frail fossil
it's the easy excuse for bad mages "tank didn't play around me well enough so i did 5k dps" 
i've seen plenty of run with big pulls and mage did bad
limber lion
i mean i dont understand why mages get a pass for shit dps cuz of tanks when ton...
It's universal for every class. Not sure why it's a fire mage thing either.
frail fossil
It's universal for every class. Not sure why it's a fire mage thing either.
yeah, but the excuse is always bought when a mage does bad dmg
limber lion
Bigger pulls = more dps
frail fossil
idk a ww monk wont say "i did bad dmg cuz u didn't pull around me" when they're very cd reliant too
frail fossil
so just sounds like a bad mage excuse
if u cant time ur cds in pug ur bad idk what else to say
frigid kestrel
Alot of mages hold their CDs to much which is why they do bad TBH. Like whats the use of taking Kindling if your just gonna hold onto your CD's?
limber lion
I mean I still dont think it's about timing cds honestly
clear shadow
also i think im doing the opener wrong.. how much dps are you guys at during opener?
drowsy coral
In Pugs everyone complain about everyone anyway, doesn't mean shit
limber lion
Yep
drowsy coral
Outlaw, mage and boomie are meta so obviously you'll get more shitty players
I've seen people complain a lot about rogues not using CC's to help the group
limber lion
Not even honestly sure why Outlaw is considered "meta" when people very rarely do shroud skips nowadays
drowsy coral
Depends on keys, I still do shroud skip very often
clear shadow
another question, when using doomblade is it worth using wel placed steel over the lashing conduit?
drowsy coral
But for instance, no one wants me for a mists 23
limber lion
If I was making a group without a skip, I'm not inviting a rogue lol
limber lion
another question, when using doomblade is it worth using wel placed steel over t...
Never
stoic needle
another question, when using doomblade is it worth using wel placed steel over t...
No
sonic schooner
because somehow OL is relevant on prides when boomies and mages are just lazy to press buttons i guess
limber lion
Always use Lashing for everything
sonic schooner
🤷♂️
drowsy coral
There are some dung where you're better of picking a WW all things equal
We're lucky that we're considered "meta"
So we can cheese some spot where other would do more than us
Even that started to fade when elem got popular tho
clear shadow
alright
limber lion
We're lucky that we're considered "meta"
Idk I still don't get invited to keys at 228 ilvl and 2k rio
But my mage alt at 205 does
drowsy coral
Yeah it's clearly tougher for us to get somewhere
drowsy coral
But then again there's a ton of ppl at 2k now, so you're facing competition
limber lion
But then again there's a ton of ppl at 2k now, so you're facing competition
It was like that 3 months ago
sonic schooner
really depends on the dungeon tbh, on HoA / NW parties hunt for a rogue
drowsy coral
I'd still play rogue in dungeon such as SD, where shroud skip are insanely valuable if played correctly
DoS has some very time-saving route too with shroud
bleak sun
That s why the New Rio systèm Will be good
sonic schooner
also wanna mention i started playin assa for ToP, shit is really fun
small island
can i cloak hand of destruction on mythic sire?
limber lion
More overall dps theoughout the dungeon = the faster you kill stuff = the faster you clear
drowsy coral
It's not always about dps, it's about dodging packs that may ruin your run
limber lion
can i cloak hand of destruction on mythic sire?
The damage yes, but not the pull
!def
prisma monolithBOT
Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/x8rytz
bleak sun
It Will separate ppl that just push free weeks from tryharder Guy
stoic needle
Huge
odd hazel
Tbh it’s nice being able to see the good and bad people per week
drowsy coral
It Will separate ppl that just push free weeks from tryharder Guy
By free weeks you mean fortified weeks ?
limber lion
Layout being done, it'll be easy to add the new raid stuff in 9.1
odd hazel
Tyrannical isn’t even hard tbh
bleak sun
@drowsy coral few free affixe combo either tyra or forti
drowsy coral
Tyrannical isn’t even hard tbh
You haven't face Hakkar in 22/23+ then
Cause it slaps
odd hazel
Yes, I base opinions on the average level of gameplay
mellow pier
Wasn’t easy for me on 15:(
limber lion
Yes, I base opinions on the average level of gameplay
But what is average?
odd hazel
I’m just generally speaking for KSM
small swan
Is there a macro that will cast blindside ambush procs if castable, and mutilate if not?
odd hazel
Can’t base a week off 20s
mellow pier
New change is good if u want better players to push keys
drowsy coral
From personnal experience, I'd say people start to give up on M+ when they reach +18 keys
odd hazel
Is there a macro that will cast blindside ambush procs if castable, and mutilate...
Why do you want that ?
limber lion
Is there a macro that will cast blindside ambush procs if castable, and mutilate...
Would hardly recommend against it
drowsy coral
I've no data but it seems like the median
limber lion
From personnal experience, I'd say people start to give up on M+ when they reach...
What does give up mean?
A lot of loose terms here
Average, give up, median
drowsy coral
What does give up mean?
As in, stop pushing higher keys
odd hazel
Same tbh, I might for the 20s though for portals
small swan
hmm figured it would free up some space. Is there a reason you wouldnt want to cast your ambush proc and use a mut instead?
limber lion
What is pushing? Why do people push?
drowsy coral
odd hazel
hmm figured it would free up some space. Is there a reason you wouldnt want to c...
You only cast ambush on procs and extra CP and damage
limber lion
I do not think that most people push keys
You have not played the game long enough if you think that
There are guilds still progressing HEROIC
drowsy coral
I'm not saying most people push keys
limber lion
Like the average joe is awful at the game.
mellow pier
Could u imagine
drowsy coral
I'm talking about the sample of ppl that WANTS to push keys
mellow pier
Not clearing heroic week 1 lol
limber lion
I'm talking about the sample of ppl that WANTS to push keys
But if they want, why would they stop?
drowsy coral
Obviously if you take the "average joe" as you said, key levels will be at 8
limber lion
Like a lot of loose stuff here
drowsy coral
But if they want, why would they stop?
Cause it's getting too tough and they loose interests
limber lion
Be careful
limber lion
Cause it's getting too tough and they loose interests
Why? Because the level is too tough? Because they don't do enough dps? Becausw they can't find a group? Because they get bored?
mellow pier
People stop pushing keys because there is no reason to push past ksm
drowsy coral
I don't have to be careful as I stated it was a personnal opinion, which obviously may be wrong since it's based on feel and personnal contacts
limber lion
Yeah well there is no point.
Is what I'm trying to say
Just because you know a few blokes who quit at 18
drowsy coral
Thank you, i'll pm you next time I'm saying something
limber lion
Doesn't mean that "most people who push quit at 18"
drowsy coral
Just so you can give me the pass
limber lion
Just be careful with your words.
mellow pier
Almost no one in my guild pushed after KSM
ancient kraken
why is there no reason to push after ksm?
limber lion
There is no reason to assume things and say dumb stuff because of it
ancient kraken
with that logic there is no reason to do anything in wow
its fun
thats why u push further
limber lion
It's like saying mastery is the best stat because envenoms are our highest damage
Which is false.
ancient kraken
ok for you
limber lion
And fun is subjective.
ancient kraken
^
limber lion
Everyone likes different things.
mellow pier
Exactly
mellow pier
But most good players don’t push keys
limber lion
Some play Hunter
mellow pier
They just play other games lol
Once there is a tangible reward like 9.1 people will play
ancient kraken
also most dont race for world first
ancient kraken
? thats not what i said
i said, also most good player do not race for world first, just like not all good player push high keys
mellow pier
But to say most people stop pushing because it’s too hard is wrong
There’s just no reason to
odd hazel
I mean that’s 90% of the reason I’m sure
limber lion
Most people stop pushing because they get bored of the game or because they can't find a group.
Hardly ever do people stop pushing because "it's too hard"
ancient kraken
boredom yes i guess
limber lion
I didn't stop pushing after I got 2k
mellow pier
This tier being infinitely long too
mellow pier
Makes it worse
ancient kraken
there
limber lion
I just got bored of it
Doesn't mean that I can't do higher keys
I definitely can
I just don't want to.
mellow pier
I mean what this is 8 month tier?
limber lion
But anyways, you can continue this at #wow-general
Let's bring it back to #assassination
So, Deathspike huh
Will be interesting to see how that works for sin
mellow pier
Until we swap venthyr for kel
stoic needle
red pagoda
does it generate cp for both spikes?
stoic needle
Look at what they did to my boy
strange minnow
good afternoon fellas, was wondering if i could get some help with m+ talents for sin rogues
i play necrolord and currently the talents i run are 3/3/1/2/3/2/1, but it doesnt feel right and i was just wondering if something like elaborate planning or MfD would be better? ty for the help
vestal wren
everyone has their preferred content
strange minnow
doomblade, p sure
limber lion
good afternoon fellas, was wondering if i could get some help with m+ talents fo...
You don't play these talents in M+. They are for raids.
ancient kraken
zoldyc
limber lion
In m+ you play the Zoldyck legendary with 2232223 talents
Meaning EP/Subt/Vigor/Iron Wire/Alac/CT
Doomblade is only played in dungeons like ToP or PF, where the packs are smaller. The talents still stay the same.
frigid kestrel
good afternoon fellas, was wondering if i could get some help with m+ talents fo...
i play 2-2-1-2-2-2-3 but you can also run whats in the Pins 2-2-3-2-2-2-3 with the Zoldyk Lego
limber lion
Yeh true
dense cedar
Nightstalker gaming
alpine latch
I run 2212223 as well. I don't run MFD
strange minnow
awesome, thank you very much for the advice its much appreciated ❤️
alpine latch
yeah
frigid kestrel
Yup
limber lion
and it gets overwhelming for very little gain
alpine latch
I tried running MDF but honestly I'm not good enough to manage it
strange minnow
would you guys say zoldycks is better than MA or is there not alot in it?
frigid kestrel
Its legit just annoying to me
limber lion
would you guys say zoldycks is better than MA or is there not alot in it?
Yes, Zoldyck is the best legendary for m+.
MA is only really good in lower keys, like 2-14
strange minnow
great, thank you very much!
limber lion
No worries mate.
drowsy parcel
limber lion
Agree.
stoic needle
Seconded
Imagine being able to play Zoldyck on trash and doomblade on bosses in every key 
ancient kraken
gearswapping doesnt sound like fun
limber lion
It was a lot of fun
stoic needle
It is fun
ancient kraken
yeah i know
limber lion
Trash set on F6
drowsy coral
What is fun tho, right ?
ancient kraken
but still :/
lost horizon
Rotating on use trinkets was kind of a pain in the ass, aside from that it was neat
stoic needle
There's add-ons that automate that
ancient kraken
so using addons for that is fun? 😄
stoic needle
I spent the last year and a half gear swapping constantly in classic it was a blast
Using all of your on use trinkets over the course of a dungeon or raid is fun yes
ancient kraken
maybe if i played it i would agree, yeah
stoic needle
Even if you don't want to use an add-on you can just keybind it
stoic needle
Putting in 30 mins of extra work to set up keybinds and gear sets to be as optimal as possible in any given situation where you're allowed to drop combat between engagements is fun to me
bronze belfry
Just want to say spiteful in keys is a huge pain the ass
Just going outlaw this week
Unless im missing a tip to get that sweet sweet multi garrote this week
sour wraith
if the mobs die roughly at the same time or one dies with no other spitefuls around, you can manage to sneak in a resealth before the last spiteful spawns. you can also hang back from the next pull until the spiteful dies and restealth, depending on how fast your tank is pulling, but thats about it
harsh anchor
Play nelf and get an extra vanish :^)
bronze belfry
Alright fair enough. Tis what I've been doing but honestly even though outlaw is kinda meh it'll probably just be better this week.
I've also been just pugging so the consistency in mob death is not there
alpine latch
Just run cripplnig and FoK them
limber lion
Alright fair enough. Tis what I've been doing but honestly even though outlaw is...
Arguably sin is better because Outlaw can't play MA/KS during spiteful weeks.
We don't actually lose too too much damage by not getting stealth openers.
Our damage is not really frontloaded into our garrotes, unlike what it used to be in BFA.
ashen oriole
Do I see it correctly that the most versatile leggo as the first one to craft is Doomblade?
drifting cosmos
we dont have any frontloaded dmg anymore, sometimes it feels kinda bad
limber lion
Do I see it correctly that the most versatile leggo as the first one to craft is...
Incorrect, the most versatile legendary is Zoldyck.
ashen oriole
great in ST, good in Dungeonslice and good in PvP?
limber lion
Doomblade is generally used for raiding and pvp.
It's not great in m+.
In m+ we just run Zoldyck everytime
ashen oriole
gloomy knoll
The most versatile is dashing prob tbh
ashen oriole
basing myself on that pic
limber lion
Yeah, it gives a good picture but it's not really accurate.
gloomy knoll
But it’s not bis for either
limber lion
The sims have not been updated since 9.0.5 was released as well.
gloomy knoll
Where as dicks is
ashen oriole
So you would tell me to go Zoldyck every time ?
limber lion
In m+?
Yes.
In raids you're fine playing Doomblade on every boss.
In m+ you always play Zoldyck.
ashen oriole
Ill do some raiding too but yeah mplus
gloomy knoll
For raid focused play go doom m+ yea zdicks
limber lion
Just get Zoldyck at 190, then Doomblade at 190
ashen oriole
wanted something that is good in all 3 raid,mplus and pvp
limber lion
Then upgrade either.
gloomy knoll
Does zdicks affect bone spike?
limber lion
You don't need to max the legendary out as the effect stays the same throughout the levels.
Yes it does.
echo geyser
What does blindside contribute?
limber lion
It procs more during execute.
echo geyser
O
limber lion
It procs twice as often when the boss is under 35% hp
echo geyser
Wait i never knew that
limber lion
It literally says that in the tooltip lol
That's why we often recommend Blindside + Zoldyck for Sire.
echo geyser
I guess i dont read tooltips, but maybe more the fact i gave up on deeper
Ep vigor is generally a kit right?
raven vapor
is there a preferred slot for Zoldyck for a new craft with the 9.1 changes incoming?
echo geyser
Blindside deeper one?
limber lion
Ep vigor is generally a kit right?
Yes.
echo geyser
Zoldyck already on pants seems safe
limber lion
is there a preferred slot for Zoldyck for a new craft with the 9.1 changes incom...
Probably legs.
raven vapor
cool thanks
limber lion
We're getting higher ilvl mythic legs from Kel'Thuzad
But the sockets are probably a bigger gain, who knows
Will just have to wait and see
echo geyser
Do u play deeper mostly cev?
limber lion
Do u play deeper mostly cev?
No, I mostly play EP/Vig
As Necrolord
BS/DS is very slightly better
Like 10 dps
limber lion
Usually you perform better on the talent setup that you enjoy playing more
echo geyser
Yeah
limber lion
Even if in theory you should be doing less.
limber lion
Yep, you're starved after Muti - SnD - Muti
slow marsh
Probably legs.
I thought it was booties
limber lion
I thought it was booties
We thought that initially because KT drops higher ilvl legs
But because of dom sockets, everything's mixed up again
There's a dom socket on boots, but not on legs.
slow marsh
Oh I see
I wonder what the spread on doomblade vs zold will be with new gear or if that will even have an effect
limber lion
I doubt there will be much of a difference.
Zold is one of our worst ST legendaries.
They both have their place.
Zold for heavy AoE/execute, Doomblade for 1-2T.
slow marsh
Yeah it should be fun. Even more sim yo selfs than ever
amber mountain
I don't mind having a bag full of Leggos to swap during raids. It's a little less fun in M+ where I can't swap them. I'd love to be able to swap in M+, Zold (and soon maybe Deathspike, for trash, DB for bosses (especially on Tyr weeks)
But for now, it's going to be a toss up between MA, Zold, and Deathspike in Season 2. I'm really hoping Deathspike isn't too nerfed for everyone except Outlaw with the target reduction
limber lion
I swap my setup for every boss in the raid, so I definitely wouldn't mind doing that in m+ as well.
fallen arch
I don't mind having a bag full of Leggos to swap during raids. It's a little les...
I would get headaches if we would have to do this
limber lion
But for now, it's going to be a toss up between MA, Zold, and Deathspike in Seas...
More like toss up between Zold and Deathspike.
amber mountain
Yeah
limber lion
MA doesn't really see much play.
fallen arch
Lets hope not
amber mountain
MA is a good starter leggo though (mine lives in my bank)
alpine latch
I wonder if it's worth it to upgrade my Zoldycks to rank 4 now since I created it on pants and that's a safe spot
fallen arch
Only run MA in the sparce pvp that I do
balmy condor
I wonder if it's worth it to upgrade my Zoldycks to rank 4 now since I created i...
All m+ is safe
The gems don’t work outside of raids
alpine latch
Yes they do - the set bonus doesn't
balmy condor
Oh wtf
limber lion
balmy condor
Fuck these stupid gems
alpine latch
lol
fallen arch
Hehe
limber lion
Tell me about it
fallen arch
They even managed to confuse Whispyr
alpine latch
I've been wishing that they were create PvP gear, M+ gear, and Raid gear for a while. To push m+ you should have to run m+,not PvP/raid. To PvP, you should have to PvP and not PvE.
balmy condor
Tell me when you’re done changing everything every other week and I’ll sim it
But until then
Leave me alone
Ya know
It’s a pet peeve of mine
When people read ptr notes
And the patch is like
2 months out
limber lion
Same.
balmy condor
And they lose their shit over something
limber lion
I'm still baffled how the most asked question recently is "How good is XXXX in 9.1?"
Or
"Are we playing XXXXXX or XXXXXX in 9.1?"
fallen arch
Well I guess if nobody loses their shit over anything, they’d just implement bat shit broken stuff
limber lion
Wtb release date
amber mountain
I read them because I think it's cool to speculate, but I'm not setting anything in stone until Whispyr has simmed it ;P
balmy condor
Well I guess if nobody loses their shit over anything, they’d just implement bat...
I mean as bad as the balancing can be, they usually reel in the super dumb stuff
amber mountain
Or unless it has a pretty spell effect... cause then I'll choose that 😄
(on my warlock alt that I never play)
limber lion
We literally had a pin about tricks because people were going apeshit over a pvp change
And thought it was applicable in pve as well
balmy condor
We literally had a pin about tricks because people were going apeshit over a pvp...
I took it down yesterday and got a dm about it 3 hours later
fallen arch
I took it down yesterday and got a dm about it 3 hours later
WAIT TRICKS IS BACK
fallen arch
spice spire
TRICKS ON THE MENU?! 
limber lion
amber mountain
So, you know if we keep talking about Tricks being back here, people are gonna lose the thread and start asking questions?
amber mountain
That could be fun, we can wind Whispyr right and then let go
see the carnage unfold in real time!
It'd be like our own MDI, Mythic Discord Invitational
balmy condor
Beyblade beyblade let it rip
echo geyser
hey wispyr is deathly worth prepull for sin?
amber mountain
lol
balmy condor
Oh sorry, you asked Whispyr.
echo geyser
he was in the channel where i initially asked thats why and i saw him last post here
limber lion
We talked about talent choices 30 minutes ago
balmy condor
Deathly prepull is kinda worth though
echo geyser
vanish snd and go right?
echo geyser
yeah cause we still need dot applications i guess before u can start ven
limber lion
Are you Venth Ram?
echo geyser
or would u just ven insta?
balmy condor
But it’s undeniably better I would think
echo geyser
i am necrolord
balmy condor
yeah cause we still need dot applications i guess before u can start ven
You would do this
echo geyser
well u see the initial reason for asking this is because i have to justify 5weeks of torghast of a lego i am not rly using for anything
so had to find a usage for it now
limber lion
well u see the initial reason for asking this is because i have to justify 5week...
5 weeks?
You only need it at 190
You never level it up to 235
echo geyser
yes i made it 235 for testing on outlaw
balmy condor
Ouch
limber lion
Welp
echo geyser
balmy condor
Giga jebaited by m+ brains
alpine latch
well u see the initial reason for asking this is because i have to justify 5week...
You can farm all of the Soul Ash you need once 9.1 hits in a single day.
echo geyser
yeah this was like 12 weeks ago maybe i made it
alpine latch
Soul Ash becomes endlessly farmable in 9.1
amber mountain
So, uh, you could just say you love Torghast and wanted to spend the Soul Ash on something fun?
echo geyser
choreghast
spice spire
Did someone say deathly?!
amber mountain
Good god, does no one other than me love that place?
alpine latch
Torghast takes like 25 minutes a week for both wings combined. It's far from a chore.
amber mountain
I'll go back to my corner... in Torghast
balmy condor
Soul ash, the endless breadsticks
Torghast, the Olive Garden
When you’re here, you’re in pain
limber lion
Not sure why Sub gets 5 more seconds on their Deathly
echo geyser
and more dmg right?
amber mountain
PVP maybe?
limber lion
Got the numbers mixed up.
amber mountain
True, but I more meant that Sub is kinda the PVP spec
amber mountain
lol
limber lion
Yeah that's true, but they can tune PvP stuff
spice spire
Not even 8 am and whispyr already on it 
amber mountain
I sometimes wonder if they forget that they can tune separately, or if they have some weird archaic rules internally about what can and can't be tuned separately so they don't "confuse the poor dumb players"
balmy condor
I’ve always been of the opinion that they should tune to balance, and if the players can’t figure it out it’s their own problem
fallen arch
Good god, does no one other than me love that place?
No
balmy condor
A big part of mmo culture imo is learning to play your character to the best of your ability
Always makes me sad when people struggle and don’t help themselves
limber lion
Yep, it is one of my biggest joys in mmorpgs.
Seeing improvement, getting better, pumping harder
Spending time minmaxing myself, learning to optimize my character/class/spec
amber mountain
It's one of the reasons I love M+ and raid progression. You can analyze where things went wrong, where you're missing out, and improving
But I always advocate if the difference between 2 things is less than 3-5% in a sim, play what feels better for you. Venthyr vs Necro? Which do you like more (and I don't care why). Vigor vs DS? same thing. Which feels better for you. etc.
amber mountain
Yep 🙂
You'll always perform better if you're enjoying yourself. We're not robots (ok, most of us aren't. I don't want to discriminate against any bots in the channel)
shy dust
A big part of mmo culture imo is learning to play your character to the best of ...
And the only way to do that
Is by memorizing every apl line and applying that to raid
limber lion
shy dust
I am in the process of of doing so to mid max successfully
bronze belfry
Well that sounds downright miserable lol
spice spire
I am in the process of of doing so to mid max successfully
🙏
balmy condor
Well that sounds downright miserable lol
I’ve committed quite a few lines to memory these days
amber mountain
Is by memorizing every apl line and applying that to raid
I know(/hope) you're joking, but I literally have a guy i play with who knows EVERYONE's class better than they do (except rogue)
balmy condor
It’s indeed pain
limber lion
I hope they didn't learn their tricks by reading Warlock's apl
bronze belfry
I’ve committed quite a few lines to memory these days
But how does that make you feel?
hazy crater
Amazing
balmy condor
But how does that make you feel?
Idk honestly pretty good being able to help people
But like
Still pain
shy dust
I know(/hope) you're joking, but I literally have a guy i play with who knows EV...
I am not kidding
Soon I will ascend into the territory of parsing well
hazy crater
getting closer to those blues every day
bronze belfry
But good is subjective.. or something?🤷♂️
bronze belfry
Then I fit in! Woo
spice spire
Damn if only Rae were as good as that one rogue, uwulane I guess we can all hope to be one day :/
frail fossil
true
balmy condor
Yeah that uwulane guy pretty solid
gusty mirage
We all suck
Y’all only suck? I’m literally a trash can
spice spire
Y’all only suck? I’m literally a trash can
No me
bronze belfry
Y’all only suck? I’m literally a trash can
It's trash CAN, not trash can't
You can do it fam
gusty mirage
Felt cute might delete later
spice spire
Why are you guys fighting over who’s worse
Because I don’t appreciate homies downing themselves 
limber lion
Damn if only Rae were as good as that one rogue, uwulane I guess we can all hope...
He does have the power of god and anime on his side after all.
spice spire
He does have the power of god and anime on his side after all.
Facts
What powers you cev? Or are you just built different, truly?
balmy condor
Because I don’t appreciate homies downing themselves <a:bearJAM:8196358512849715...
Have you heard the tragedy of tomato town
spice spire
Have you heard the tragedy of tomato town
Fuck, don’t
gusty mirage
Have you heard the tragedy of tomato town
Tell me
limber lion
What powers you cev? Or are you just built different, truly?
i just press button and button go brbrrrrr
spice spire
Please no
balmy condor
limber lion
then my character go brbrbrbrbrr
gusty mirage
How much force do you use for your button pressing? I hear the harder you press the more damage you do
bronze belfry
I beat that shit like it owes me money
limber lion
i smack the shit out of them, and I also press the same button 17 times during the gcd
spice spire
How much force do you use for your button pressing? I hear the harder you press ...
That’s a myth. I punch my buttons and it’s not enough :/
bronze belfry
Gotta hit the gym?
balmy condor
How much force do you use for your button pressing? I hear the harder you press ...
True story, one time during early bfa, I was pecking at my keys during prog like an old grandma on a typewriter, and I pecked at my keys so hard by the end of the fight, half my key caps were on the floor
gusty mirage
True story, one time during early bfa, I was pecking at my keys during prog like...
I’m learning
limber lion
True story, one time during early bfa, I was pecking at my keys during prog like...
i wish that was me
limber lion
see you soon
spice spire
i wish that was me
You beat me to it, just like I wish whispyr beat me :/
balmy condor
gusty mirage
That’s a myth. I punch my buttons and it’s not enough :/
I’m going to give you the best advice I ever received: just do what you’re already doing, but better
spice spire
Wait, this ain’t my group chat
spice spire
I’m going to give you the best advice I ever received: just do what you’re alrea...
Got that from a coach in high school LMAO. Decent advice
gusty mirage
Yeah it really helps when you don’t actually know wtf you’re doing
spice spire
The south takes football seriously
bronze belfry
It's right up there, with when in doubt make enemies hp 0 while keeping yours above 0.
gusty mirage
Best boss strat, get its HP to 0 before your entire raid’s health hits 0
spice spire
Your football coach told you that? Mine told me to stop being a bitch
Never hit that point. Linebacker got through once, never again
shut flame
Hey from fellow pirate.. was under impression of wrong chat (or vv, indeed)
bronze belfry
So as Someone who doesn't have a doomblade yet. For 9.1 is there a recommended slot yet?
balmy condor
Cape
gusty mirage
<a:confusion:731187872559792138>
misty zenith
Assa looking good for 9.1
gusty mirage
Yes
balmy condor
Assa looking good for 9.1
No you
misty zenith
oh
misty zenith
wow
sonic schooner
how did u know i was talking about... 😳
limber lion
wow
limber lion
gusty mirage
Well now I’m keeping all this junk in my trunk to myself 
west cove
how do we know assa will be good in 9.1 btw
limber lion
We don't.
dawn ivy
@bronze belfry its getting a third slot in 9.1
balmy condor
Ya got me. I had to go double check..was certain it was gloves and shoulders.
It is, it’s also cape in 9.1
:)
bronze belfry
Ah what the fuck lol
balmy condor
Who
misty zenith
dw its not infexious 😄
balmy condor
I have never heard of this guy
misty zenith
He is allright
misty zenith
I kinda like his 9.1 overview of the fights
dawn ivy
oh jesus hes a tier list making channel
misty zenith
Think he plays Spriest en Enhance?
balmy condor
what about 9.2 whisp tho
balmy condor
Whispyr.... smiling?
sonic schooner
cute :)
balmy condor
supple panther
So is our aoe rotation just dot everything up that'll live long enough?
limber lion
Pretty much, and making sure to maintain SnD with Envenom.
supple panther
Cool, really liking Ass rogue and might main it for 9.1 🙂
misty zenith
Swapped from Feral, looks like 9.1 will be also be rogue for me
But only assa or sub, cause combat is a no for me
supple panther
hahahahaha
hollow escarp
But only assa or sub, cause combat is a no for me
combat is gone 
misty zenith
I refuse to acknowledge Outlaw
bronze belfry
As I derped and hit outlaw first on roles
misty zenith
shit 😄
misty zenith
It hates me
limber lion
And now have this yellow tag
You can just remove it. Go to #bot-spam and type !outlaw
No excuses.
bronze belfry
Fucking bless
misty zenith
😄
vestal wren
we all know that subtlety has the best color
red pagoda
it's actually a well known thing
bronze belfry
I will now compose a song to serenade my Savior @limber lion
misty zenith
There's just something about a rogue and daggers, it just works
limber lion
I will now compose a song to serenade my Savior <@165215952479322112>
anything for a homie
bronze belfry
Ourkaw feels like a poor man's single handed fury warrior?🤷♂️
I was actually contemplating leaving the server and coming back to get rid of the yellow 😂
soft shale
that is kind of too much ay
limber lion
📠
hollow escarp
defias red is better
bronze belfry
Like a true assassin
limber lion
damn going straight for the blades throats
sacred isle
You sir, just lost all credibility.
stoic needle
Imagine caring about the approval of dirty dice rollers
limber lion
they're just colors boyos
sacred isle
Imagine fighting over colour 🤔
bronze belfry
Whatever happened to honor among theives!
sacred isle
It got nerfed
bronze belfry
We are all just stabby bros! And brodettes
And potentially apache attack helicopters or whatever people identify as these days
echo cargo
I identify as a rogue utility buff in 9.1
limber swallow
I identify as a rogue utility buff in 9.1
you don't exist?
echo cargo
Exactly
limber swallow
maybe you're just in stealth?
echo cargo
I also identify as my raid learning how to do boss dps on sire
So I don’t need to tunnel so hard
misty zenith
Would be nice if they just revert it back to combat and allow daggers
bronze belfry
Your allowed a dagger