other_ip_topics

[dry cargo]

So, I need to identify the IP of ISO symbols first ( by contacting ISO )

And only if I can use them properly, I will have to identify the IP of each file I would use ( .svg / .png .... )

[barren tartan]

Yes, if you don't make your own files.

Or.....
You could make a good faith attempt to deduce they are in public domain, use them as is (still subject to actual file licensing if you don't make them yourself), and be prepared for the (unlikely) situation that you will get a take down notice down the road.

[dry cargo]

As you both said, doing it by myself is the most effective way to follow IPs

I will contact ISO before harassing you more.

Thank you Muzzleflash and HorribleGoat for taking the time. I appreciate your help !

Have a good day 👋

[abstract crest]

There is also the concept of Universal Symbols (biohazard, radiation - old and new one - and such like) that cannot be trademarked or copyrighted

Separate from ISO discussion but I guess some symbols can become Universal ones: "The term 'universal symbol' refers to a design, icon, or image that is commonly used in an informational manner and conveys a widely recognized or readily understood meaning when displayed in its relevant context." For example, I would certainly argue that the car dashboard symbols in ISO 7000 are Universal Symbols

(Quote above from US Patent & Trademark office)

But I'd say the important bit is: "displayed in its relevant context"

[barren tartan]

But just because the symbol isn't copyrighted doesn't mean a particular jpeg showing it isn't

[abstract crest]

Best to get them from government regulatory sites that have them as things you have to display irl I guess

[barren tartan]

less than 15 I would open up inkscape and just make them... More I would find my own governments public domain PDF and based it on them, and assume I won't be DMCA'ed by them over an Arma 3 mod. Of all the "potential" IP violations possible, this is the least severe one.

[abstract crest]

So long as the signs are used appropriately you could argue that international agreements force you to include the symbols... you are simply obeying the laws and regulations 😉

[chrome hearth]

If the drawing (jpeg, png etc.) of said public domain logo contains no new original expression then legally it's treated as a reproduction and NOT a new creative work, meaning you can't stop others from using it and you don't own any exclusive rights to it. Copyright only protects Original Works. That is both true in the US and EU. If said logo is Exactly as the public domain logo, it isn't protected regardless of the medium and who "drew" it.

If said images creator creates a new work of art using said public domain logo, that's a completely different story.

Just because you think the jpeg is protected, that doesn't actually mean it is. It entirely depends on if they are just depicting the logo as it already exists(making it a reproduction, not protected from use by anyone) or a new "artistic" design of said logo (meaning it's a new creative work, protected by copyright).

[abstract crest]

That matches with what the USPTO says about trying to trademark something with a Universal Symbol in it (very difficult to automatic denial)

[chrome hearth]

For instance, a good example in the U.S. is the stop sign. Many companies sell them, it is a "Universal Symbol" that falls into public domain. Not a single one of the companies that sell them can make a claim regarding copyright because they aren't actually creating a new copyrightable work of art.

The sign itself can be disregarded. It's the use of the public domain image posted on them that i'm talking about, just so no one gets confused.

[abstract crest]

Yep, and as noted earlier, most governments have PDFs full of regulatory symbols in decent resolution that can be extracted

[chrome hearth]

And used freely

In most cases, even changing the font may or may not even be enough to hold a new claim on said work of "art".

[abstract crest]

Yep. (And I still think that the prevention of the use of the Red Cross/Crescent/Crystal in response to the Canadian Red Cross's statement on its use in gaming is a little dodgy - though I guess that battle's fought and lost now - because they were only talking of it's misuse, not it's correct use in military uniforms, vehicles and structures 🤷)

[chrome hearth]

It's protected by the Geneva Conventions.

[abstract crest]

But even BI effectively misused it when changing from the cross to the crystal in ARMA 2/3 because the crystal is just as protected as the cross so the change made no sense lol

[vast stump]

but do you know for sure its used without permission?

[abstract crest]

It is a protected symbol under the Geneva Conventions that detail when and where it can be used, but doesn't (obviously) cover the simulation of real military forces

[abstract crest]

Just a guess because the change was not necessary because all three symbols are equally protected (four if you include the Red Shield)

[chrome hearth]

Lol. I had just looked it up and edited my message.

Does it allow usage for historical purposes?

[abstract crest]

No one's checked afaik, but reenactors and film use it

[chrome hearth]

From what i've read, it can in fact be used in video games for historical purposes.

The problems is the misuse. IE. it being a health pickup icon, an icon used to determine a players "class" or being used as some kind of branding.

[abstract crest]

Then again, most don't actually know the rules for people wearing the red cross... They can engage the enemy in the same way as non red-cross marked soldiers in some circumstances (self-defense). Only if the conduct offensive actions do they forfeit legal protections

[abstract crest]

That, which is basically all the Canadian Red Cross's statement said...

[barren tartan]

This is from ICRC own words:

The red cross and red crescent emblems are protected symbols under international humanitarian law and national laws. Any use that is not expressly authorized by the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols constitutes a misuse of the emblem. Use of these emblems by unauthorized persons is strictly forbidden.
I seriously dobut that Geneva Convention has a clause about using for historical reenactment (could be wrong never know).

• Other people might use it without permission (as in breaking the "IP")
• Other people might use it with permission.
• Bohemia stance is that you cannot use them

[abstract crest]

The use on a military hospital tent, ambulance, medevac helicopter and armband for a medic is authorised ofc...

[barren tartan]

Well they made it clear they don't consider 3d models and textures be any of above.

[abstract crest]

BI did. Wish I could change their minds, but that boat has sailed unfortunately

[chrome hearth]

They just don't want any liability for misuse.

[barren tartan]

In US it is breaking federal law to use it

[abstract crest]

Can still use red cross on a light grey background 😉

[chrome hearth]

IF it's misused.

A video game can in fact be a "Publications documenting historical events"

[abstract crest]

ARMA 2 was a video game predicting historical events 😉

[barren tartan]

18 U.S. Code § 706 - Red Cross says you can't use it.... At all.... Whether there is a separate clause over there that then explicitly allows it I don't know.

[abstract crest]

Only irl: "Whoever wears or displays the sign of the Red Cross or any insignia colored in imitation thereof for the fraudulent purpose of inducing the belief that he is a member of or an agent for the American National Red Cross; or

Whoever, whether a corporation, association or person, other than the American National Red Cross and its duly authorized employees and agents and the sanitary and hospital authorities of the armed forces of the United States, uses the emblem of the Greek red cross on a white ground, or any sign or insignia made or colored in imitation thereof or the words “Red Cross” or “Geneva Cross” or any combination of these words—"

It's to protect from scammers basically

[barren tartan]

Maybe but someone (whoever), making a mod with it (uses the emblem): Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

[abstract crest]

Again, comes down to that original, "appropriate use". A US Army faction in a mod is a recreation of "duly authorized employees and agents and the sanitary and hospital authorities of the armed forces of the United States", same as in a movie or reenactment

[barren tartan]

The whoever is about who may use it, not about who it may represent...

[abstract crest]

So movies cannot use it under that argument...

[barren tartan]

Well, yeah..

Red Cross threatend to sue Introversion for Prison Architect on it.

[bold junco]

If its a realistic movie that might land under editorial use.

Nevermind still not allowed without permission

[abstract crest]

End of the day I think BI are more concerned about how we use those assets in play - but that doesn't take into account that BI themselves provide those assets for us to do what we want with them... 🤣 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frcnRc_ZJwY

[chrome hearth]

"This section shall not make unlawful the use of any such emblem, sign, insignia or words which was lawful on the date of enactment of this title.” Date being 1948

[barren tartan]

I mean BI' own "behind" is covered since they have an agreement. Probably part of the Laws of War adventure. One could theorize the reason they are are hard on it is is understandable they don't want to risk videos/streams/screenshots involving mods being misconstrued as official content online that might seem they violate their agreement.

[abstract crest]

Yeah, but then there's the rule that porting A2 or A3 assets with red crosses, crescents or crystals without removing them is forbidden. But the rule is there and I personally accept it and stay in ARMA 3 where the assets were ported before the rule came into place 😉

[chrome hearth]

The logo wasn't even copywritten post 1948, the only laws that apply would be emblem protection under treaties(Geneva Conventions) and whatever federal statute protected it under your jurisdiction(In the U.S., there seems to be none). The grandfather clause of U.S. Code § 706 thus allow usage based on the Geneva Conventions. Which literally just disallow it for misuse.

[abstract crest]

Yeah, but BI are allowed to enforce their own rules. Unfortunate in my own opinion, but my opinion is irrelevent in this case

[chrome hearth]

rules don't trump laws, that's the big problem here.

[abstract crest]

But that symbol and others is how we got to questioning the use of other, Universal, symbols, so is relevent...

[barren tartan]

To be clear, unlike the safety signs, the stance (from Red Cross at least) is that their symbols are NOT public domain at all. They have very limited use rights.

[chrome hearth]

Their stance on it doesn't matter, it will simply never hit public domain because it is protected differently, not by copyright law.

Even if they said it was in the public domain, it wouldn't be. Treaties protect it regardless of what the "company" says.

[abstract crest]

Yeah, but is the question is misuse or protection. But we've probably discussed this to death so much we've ourselves committed a war crime 😉

[chrome hearth]

The grandfather clause exists for a reason(in regards to use in the U.S.). Meaning it can be used for historical depictions in publications or educational material.

As long as they follow the Geneva Conventions. I.E. they aren't misused.

You as an individual are ALLOWED to use it, as long as you don't misuse it.

A company telling you that you can't use a logo in a legal way, is in violation of YOUR rights.

I completely understand their point of view, they don't want a legal issues, they don't want to be held liable of YOUR misuse.

But their policy still doesn't supersede laws that are afforded you.(Which is a whole issue in itself)

You just can't use it, regardless of legality on their platform.

[celest sundial]

Discussion on it is pointless. BI made its stance clear multiple times. We have an official cooperation with the ICRC.

[chrome hearth]

Are we just not allowed to openly discuss this or?

[celest sundial]

You can discuss it all you want, it won't change anything

[chrome hearth]

I'm not saying it will

[barren tartan]

We are (allowed); it is just pointless in relation to Arma.

[chrome hearth]

But there's nothing pointless about having discussions.

[calm ridge]

"A company" referring to BI or Red Cross or someone else?

[meager fractal]

a private company totally has the right to limit yours within its product's usage

e.g you have freedom of movement by law, but I can prevent you access to a room ^^

BI could forbid "any representation of black boots in mods"
it would be stupid, but they would be within their rights to do so

a company cannot go against a law, but it can be more restrictive

so yeah, BI takes safeties in regard to the Red Cross etc symbols.

[abstract crest]

Yeah, what Lou said. Making a mod with them is not prohibited as such (nothing in Tools EULA), uploading to the Reforger Workshop is prohibited and that's BI's decision and right

I do still wonder why the cross changed to the crystal though, that didn't really make sense and then actually confused people more into thinking that the crystal was allowed - it isn't

[barren tartan]

Because it is more religion neutral

Not christian or muslim

[abstract crest]

Anyway, we can just use a red cross with no background, the cross by itself is not protected 😛

[chrome hearth]

I don't know about the other countries, but here company policy can't restrict laws(limit them, restrict them, make required time limits shorter etc.). There are legal requirements put forth that simply cannot be superseded by policy. I can't speak for the rest of the world though.

[meager fractal]

Discord or Facebook forbid its access to < 13yo
you must follow a code of conduct
you must not multi-account
etc

[abstract crest]

Don't actually know of anyone who does use the crystal irl (military that is). Cross, crescent and shield are used though

[meager fractal]

which country do you mean if you don't mind me asking?

[chrome hearth]

No where in any law does it require companies to allow "underage usage". They aren't in opposition of a law, that I know of so that doesn't refer to what I'm talking about.

[abstract crest]

I'd guess Australia... they're the ones with their own clauses in every Steam agreement 😉

[meager fractal]

this is what I say, the company cannot go against the law
but it can apply its own rules where the law leaves a free field

I am pretty sure all businesses can prevent an irate customer to come to the shop again 😄

[abstract crest]

Same as public bars/restaurants forbidding access (often very misunderstood by drunk people)

[chrome hearth]

Of course, a company can have you leave because they don't like the color of your shirt.

I'm just arguing that companies, can't alter laws.

[calm ridge]

In what way are you saying a company (which) altered a law (which)?

[meager fractal]

BI only prevents you from uploading a Red Cross on their Workshop, they do not rule if you breach Geneva's Convention on your own 😄

[abstract crest]

Basically the BI Workshop is a private space and can forbid legal things on it without consequences. Which is in general a good thing...

[abstract crest]

Stealing my lines here 😜

[chrome hearth]

I understand how this works and what's going on.

[abstract crest]

Yep, and we had a pretty good conversation on it covering most angles. Wish it might somehow change things but as I repeatedly noted, that ship's probably sailed now. So long as we don't push things and keep things civil (as we did) it doesn't hurt to try though 😉 Only brought it up because this one and other discussions on symbols has people doubting they can use anything that they in fact can legally be used - the discussion of Universal Symbols sort of brought this up for me

[chrome hearth]

I'm not trying to be uncivil. I'm just having a discussion.

[abstract crest]

I know. And it was a good one

[chrome hearth]

Yeah, I think so too.

[abstract crest]

Makes a change for this channel 🤣

[chrome hearth]

Sometimes it's nice to have a discussion that isn't the usual

I.E. "SCR_Thing = new SCR_Thing();"

My usual discussions are helping people in relation to Reforger.

BTW @meager fractal, I appreciate you not coming in and being mean to us for simply having a discussion.

[meager fractal]

I prefer being mean for good reasons 🍻
As long as it's a genuine question, I'm ofc fine with answering and explaining (but 1/ I am no legal advice, 2/ sometimes (most of the time?) I just don't know 😄)

[chrome hearth]

That wasn't me saying that "Lou is usually mean" either lol

[meager fractal]

Thank y'all for being civil still 🙂 genuinely

[chrome hearth]

And I appreciate that you were too.

Good discussions go a long way.

[abstract crest]

Would be interesting to find out internally why the crystal was adopted though Lou?

[chrome hearth]

Omg

Keep it up and he's gonna be mean to you. lol

[abstract crest]

I'm used to it 😜

Obv. joking, Lou is one of the very good ones!!! (despite the Frenchness) 😉

[chrome hearth]

I do have a question actually, if anyone knows.

When porting the A2 stuff, there are some logos on things(textures obviously) that are copywritten/trademarked.

What's the deal with those.

It may actually be in the portable DayZ mod stuff actually.

Regardless.

[abstract crest]

Mario stated that no matter whether they are used by BI, their permissions do not extend to us

I asked that about porting the red crosses on ARMA 2 assets before

[chrome hearth]

I'm less concerned about it, because that's protected by other means.

I was more meaning the food cans etc. that all have copywritten works on them. As an example.

[abstract crest]

Not many ARMA 2 assets where that applies though... Tatra probably just Czech companies being buddies.

Ah, the DayZ Mod assets. Personally ported them to ARMA 3... but yeah, Mountain Dew, Coca Cola and Pepsi in there. Dean just copied can labels lol

[chrome hearth]

They should probably be removed for the license data packs then.

from*

[abstract crest]

Then BI sold it as a game and yep, those changed to what they are right now in Standalone

[abstract crest]

Except we have them already and, as is discussed here before, licenses do not apply retroactively if changed

There's also a copyrighted music track in the LDP as well...

[chrome hearth]

Yes but future "porters" probably shouldn't have access to them, is all i'm saying.

[abstract crest]

And while we "cannot use the DayZ logo" outside of DZSA, the LDP includes the DayZ logo 🤣

[chrome hearth]

One of my favorite arguments about using DayZ standalone stuff was, "it isn't stealing because B.I. owns them both".

[abstract crest]

Heh, I remember that. That and the "I can steal your stuff cause BI owns your mods"

[chrome hearth]

I'm about to port all of your stuff to Reforger.

You can't do anything because you don't own it!!!!

[abstract crest]

I'll put all my original stuff under an ARMA 3 DML-style license ARMA 3 only... what's good for the gander and all that

[fiery egret]

Commas! Please use them!
That was the first message I saw, without context, when I opened this channel. This, coupled with sleep deprivation, make me read "though" as "through", and I started wondering why you're here, talking about Lou adopting a crystal 🧙‍♂️
🙈

[abstract crest]

Worse, BI adopted a crystal, for Edita, through Lou

[vast stump]

Alright, let's try to keep on topic again.

[dreamy haven]

Hey , im intrested if i can remake maps from project reality mod for battlwfield 2 into reforger , i guess since its a mod it wouldn't be a problem , but im asking to be sure

They are small but i will see to remix them a bit and make thwm bigger

[vast stump]

it depends what do you mean by remake

as in do you intend to use their data

[dreamy haven]

Only satmap for refrence

[vast stump]

you cant use anything from their work directly without permission

so unless they have licensing that grants such rights then it is a no-go

[dreamy haven]

aight good to know

[vast stump]

modders have rights too. 😅

but if you ask them you might get positive response

[dreamy haven]

i dont know how to contact them for that

and can you dm me modder rights?

[vast stump]

modders have same rights to their work as anyone

its not a specific list

[vast stump]

https://www.realitymod.com did you look for any contact possibilities on their homepage?

[dreamy haven]

i found their discord , ill see

[vast stump]

good luck!

[stuck charm]

Hi, from looking through the channel this seems to be the right place to ask about licences, apologies if I’m wrong:

I’m looking to make a mod for Reforger using a model from A2 British Armed Forces (Jackal) and there is one on sketchfab. The model on sketchfab is identical to the A2 model so I assume the same one. It is free and it looks like a standard licence on their end (attribution etc).

I have looked at the Licensed Data Packs section on the BI website, which reads to me as if this particular model is licensed under APL. To my understanding, this means it can be used in Arma Reforger as they are obviously both Arma.

Basically, the sketchfab licence says I can use it as long as I attribute it, which I will, and don’t use it for commercial gain, which I obviously wont be. The BI website would suggest it’s under APL, so I can use it for Arma, which I will be.

Would someone be able to confirm I am correct in the above and therefore safe to make/publish this mod, or if I am mistaken or misunderstood anything?

Thanks very much for any reply

[abstract crest]

If it is the ARMA 2 model then they are presumably breaking the license by putting it on sketchfab if they also don't keep the APL/ADPL-SA license themselves. Get the model from the ARMA 2 Samples pack instead. That's why the unbinarized samples are provided...

Don't use the Licensed Data Packs, they contain binarized models. You want the Samples, they are unbinarized and also under either the APL-SA or ADPL-SA license

[stuck charm]

Perfect thanks

Does this also apply to Operation Arrowhead/BAF? I heard the rules are different but I cant find anything official to verify that

I also can’t find the jackal in the samples pack unfortunately for me

[vast stump]

any model distributed elsewhere than our official releases is breaking our licensing and can be reported to [e-mail]

such sources also can not be used

[stuck charm]

Thank you for clarifying for me much appreciated

[vast stump]

jackal should be in the samples

[stuck charm]

Excellent I’ll have a closer look tomorrow. Thank you very much for your help

[stuck charm]

Thank you

[normal pond]

@abstract crest but SRTM data can be used to recreate Lemnos

[abstract crest]

Real life data yes. ARMA 3 data no

Not until released as APL-SA/ADPL-SA. Is right now under the game EULA. That's the change when an LDP is released by BI

[uneven smelt]

i got a question but so people can better understand i will add the backstory / context (Warning this message will be long)

I got a fairly new reforger server, I want to add donations for those who want to help support the server, I have read the ToS / Monitization policy and cannot find anything that would suggest my idea would go against said ToS however i would rather be 100% sure before going ahead with it. baring in mind donations will be completely volentary

The ToS states that i cannot charge players for entry to the server or give players items / in game advantages for donations which im fine with as im against P2W within the gaming community.

1. If i was to add a "Supporter" or "Donator" role within the discord to show appreciation for those who donate would this go against the ToS?

And

2. Would adding a "Supporter" or "Donator" Name tag in game go against the ToS?

I cannot find anything to suggest it would be but i would rather be 100% certain before going ahead with it and pottentially jeprodising the server.

thanks for any help and your time

Sorry for the long message

[near swallow]

1: no it would not, every discord that runs an arma server has had some variation of this in some manner

2:same as the first one, not sure about ingame stuff

Only thing that can be slippery is any bonuses to donating, but provided you don’t make it anything that could be connected to the game itself you should be fine

[calm ridge]

2 might need monetization approval.

[near swallow]

So having something that checks player stats on the server and displays them via command only accessible to ‘donators’ wouldn’t be permitted

But private channels within a discord is fine, provided that doesnt have anything in it connected to the game not available to non ‘donators’

That’s how I understand it, I probably got a few things wrong tho

[dark radish]

You can accept donations just fine, it's when you give some kind of reward in exchange for it that it becomes monetization. BI has no power over what you do with your discord, but giving any in-game rewards for donations would be a form of monetizing your server

[stiff ruin]

What information would be needed to send to BI about something like that? Got a community that may or may not be doing so without monetization approval

[dark radish]

Idk I'm not BI, just repeating what I remember being told when asking about where the line is on accepting donations before needing monetization approval. I think they had a dedicated monetization email inbox for that stuff posted previously in here or the other IP channel

[stiff ruin]

I'll take a look through the other IP channels, i do remember seeing that email specifically but that was a while ago afaik. Also just want to be sure i'm getting the right information before sending in a report. The wording on one of their donations is weird and implies the item was given because of the donation, but it could also be a public building accessible to anyone

but thank you for the response

[dark radish]

That email is probably checked by the right people to be asking about what info would be needed to make a complaint so I'd defs start there unless a BI staffer replies here or reaches out directly

[vast stump]

[e-mail]

[near swallow]

Not sure where else to put this but just been made aware of a helldivers mod

https://www.reddit.com/r/ArmaReforger/s/KHREjwj0f7

I’m not at my Xbox so I can’t find the actual thing but I’ll look for it when I can

[meager fractal]

@vast stump ^ 🙃

[icy linden]

That looks familiar

[vast stump]

I do wonder if they really have permission..

lot of people always say that and then turns out they dont

[icy linden]

Wait are you saying that people lie on the internet?

[vast stump]

It seems to be possible

[vast stump]

I'll look into it. Seems like familiar faces working on it.

[icy linden]

"We're gonna do all the IPs one by one until we find one we don't get banned for"

[meager fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-literally-impossible-not-happening-no-way-pass-not-interested-gif-16838005

[icy linden]

This was a great show until it wasnt

[pliant oracle]

they make Operation Flashpoint in Arma next

[dusk tiger]

Hi, would be this model okay for a mod? have checked and it looks oddly similar to the one in war thunder.
The account that posted it has few reviews and been around for 9 years and all the models in his collection look similar in style so idk I guess it's better to ask than being sorry later

https://3dexport.com/3d-model-changhe-z-11-wa-436227

[vast stump]

some red flags like very cheap price for game ready asset there. even the 60 normal price is nothing

they have very impressive roster with super cheap prices

not all of those exist in warthunder though

chances are 50:50

[dusk tiger]

That's unfortunate :( , i'll try and find something else. Ty for the reply.

[vast stump]

yah actually lookin at their roster that Luchs is definitely from Warthunder

stay far away

[dusk tiger]

Got it thanks, btw what would be the price range for a proper model, something like 200-300ish?

[vast stump]

I mean there is no rules about that

but silly cheap models are more sus

because often it can mean there is no actual effort in the making and its just to turn quick buck

not always

but often enough

[dusk tiger]

Yeah that makes sense, I think it can happen also with models that you pay a lot and it ends up being ripped from somewhere else 😅
thanks for clarifying

[vast stump]

it is unfortunately possible even with such models

[steel dune]

they are claiming to have permission from Arrowhead for this, but Sony owns the Helldivers IP outright.

[near swallow]

I think most times they say this stuff in the hopes it’s not reported

Then there’s peeps like me, who still run it past the devs

[lavish heart]

Is a blacklist in a license actually legit? Like enforceable, or just a deterrent?

[bitter pecan]

It is, modders own their work

[lavish heart]

Okay thank you, I wasn’t aware of this, I have a blacklist in my license and I was genuinly curious if it was actually enforceable lol

[bitter pecan]

It is enforceable, but it doesn't mean it will be enforced tho. You are still expected to contact whoever is not respecting your license and tell them to stop using it first and if they refuse only then you can bring it to BI's attention, but you are not 100% guaranteed that they will take action tho.

[lavish heart]

That’s fair, I always just pulled the mod if it was being used by the said party haha, but this seems like a much better approach for the future, thank you

[dark radish]

My understanding is even a mod licensed under APL the author can decide to make it conditional, for example you could allow use of your mod under APL for non-monetized servers but require monetized servers contact you directly for custom licensing, BI staff plz correct me if wrong

[calm ridge]

AFAIK, monetization is different because APL does not allow monetization, so you need to get a special exception from the creator.

[dark radish]

Yeah IK you need permission to use mods on monetized server, I was saying in addition to that even once you have permission the author could offer you a different license to APL in that case

[calm ridge]

Yeah, what I mean is that I think adding a restriction to everybody is more complicated that removing one for a specific person.

[dark radish]

If the base license is APL then yeah there may be some complications there, but I think for a "whitelist" approach it would make more sense to have a restrictive base license then only hand out more permissive licensing ad hoc

Can't remember if APL is considered revocable or not but probably not in which case it's probably not compatible with whitelist/blacklist of who can use it (since that would be revoking rights already granted to everyone under APL) so those cases probably need to have a more restrictive license

[abstract crest]

APL license does not say anything about using it on a server. Normally that's in a workshop's EULA. You can release a mod (with original content) with APL and custom additional restrictions

[abstract crest]

Though section (1)(k) may in fact prohibit such restrictions - but you'd need a lawyer to say for sure, vague af

[vast stump]

When you don't specifically want to use APL, use custom license.

[vast stump]

Whatever you have released a mod version with applies to that version even if you change license for next version

[icy linden]

@desert fjord here is also an interesting page https://guidelines.euipo.europa.eu/2058843/2044637/trade-mark-guidelines/3-2-protected-symbols

Based on the above, would a radar IFF indicator rhombus, when painted red, considered infringement? (red crystal emblem)

I hope thickness of the red crystal matters hehe

[vast stump]

[desert fjord]

I'd take the chance

it says guidelines but rules arent laws

[vast stump]

Id rather not give advice like that

[desert fjord]

funny thing is, you enforcing the rules here, which make sense, have more power than them, no joke, I'd trust you over that whole organization who crybully people

[covert bear]

except its set in law
its governed under both the geneva conventions (article 38,44,53) and lots of laws specific per country
for example under US law its a federal offense https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/706

the red crystal is slightly less well defined in individual countries laws due to it being newer but countries are still bound by treaty to protect it as well

Might be silly or stupid to protect a simple symbol, but it has its reasons
nevertheless just don't use them...

[desert fjord]

you know my stance already, the symbols are ugly anyways, I can make something better than that

[vast stump]

Im sure you can. 👍

[jolly canopy]

So, I have a question regarding the license I could publish with. It's for music I control the license for, but when using a mod dependency like Project Sonar (Reforger), which is published under APL, I can only release under that license too, correct?

[calm ridge]

AFAIK, dependencies and their licenses don't affect your thing and its license because you files don't have anything from their files.

[abstract crest]

Individual components of a mod can be licensed differently (RHS does that for their ARMA 3 mods where certain assets within them have a more, or less strict license. You simply need to be clear in identifying such assets

See https://www.rhsmods.org/page/EULA

[jolly canopy]

Ah, thanks. Was dreading I had to throw my project out

[vast stump]

always good to ask! 👍

[rugged prawn]

also this is not correct, APL => derivative works can be licensed differently. APL-SA => has to be same license thats what Share Alike means

[proper scroll]

I've been thinking about the graveyard with accumulating dead Life/RPG projects recently. Like how could we have an open source root project/framework to avoid everyone reinventing the wheel and using massive amounts of time and energy to something that could have existed as open source in the first place?

Apart from technical side of things, has a license that would let contributors only to use the framework ever been tested? Maybe there could be a board of existing/established contributors that would vote about when a new contributor would have contributed to the core framework enough? After that they would get a permission to utilize the code and join the board of contributors.

This might sound like overengineering licensing stuff, but the problem really is massive in the current Life scene. They are massive projects that struggle with the status quo and I think that large part of their bad reputation comes actually from systemic issues like poor fit with the current licensing models

[normal pond]

open source
only let people who contribute use it

so your goal would be to unite all life developers to coordinate together to make their life easier, but keep everyone else out?
in that case, open source doesn't make sense, just keep it close sourced and invite those who deserve to be invited

(personal opinion inc)
such a life thing to do
bad reputation does not come from whatever you described, it comes from predatory tactics, stealing others people work, using mods against their licences and charging extreme amounts for in game stuff, often without being whitelisted for monetisation by BI (becuase they know they wouldn't be)
then there are the DDoSes life server owners did against each other, trying to get the playerbase to their server, so they can spend money on their server.

[barren tartan]

For milsim we have CBA (and ACE), and generally other scripts. Not sure why Life can't do the equivalent? I can only assume motivations are different on the Life side of things. For milsim mods generally the intrinsic goal of the developers seem to mostly be the creation of mod/mission itself, where-as I suspect in Life it is about the server/community, and growing such. If you let others have what you have, it is harder to get ahead with your community. I can also speculate that some run some "indirect monetization" around their community.

If I spearheaded such a framework, I would definitely have some level of minimum quality of the contributions like CBA/ACE, but I don't see how specifically "restricting usage to known contributors help". Sound more like some kind of Life Modding Cartel, which I think if the situation is as you describe goes against the motivations of some of the would-be-members there.

[proper scroll]

so your goal would be to unite all life developers to coordinate together to make their life easier, but keep everyone else out?

I don't like the thought of having to limit the licensing to contributors only, but seeing open source initiatives fail one after another has made me think about such solutions.

then there are the DDoSes life server owners did against each other, trying to get the playerbase to their server, so they can spend money on their server

Yeah, this is (unfortunately) a well-known issue. Apart from technical solutions, I think that having enough populated Life servers would solve the issue partially at least, since in that case targeting one or a few servers wouldn't have any practical positive impact to your community. That's why I think that also not-so-technical peeps should be able to run a server (to increase positive competition and to limit the impact of DDoS wars making them unsustainable strategy).

For milsim mods generally the intrinsic goal of the developers seem to mostly be the creation of mod/mission itself, where-as I suspect in Life it is about the server/community, and growing such.

I think this is an excellent point and is often true 👍

I would definitely have some level of minimum quality of the contributions like CBA/ACE, but I don't see how specifically "restricting usage to known contributors help".

This has been attempted a few times now and they've all failed not only, but also because everyone wants to use your code but not contribute to the greater good themselves. If it's cartel, then shall it be, but I'd just like to see actually collaborative attempt by the community, even if forced by the rules instead of spontaneous teamwork

[barren tartan]

It may also simply be a ability question. I would guess for every 100 that is technically able to use a mod, there is at most 10 capable of creating such code, and for non-UI code, of those at most 1 capable of doing it correctly in terms of MP and JIP (I would assume for Life server, correct JIP is crucial).

I don't think such "board of contributors" style has been tried. There is nothing that prevents you from doing so, but if player clients need the data files too, then distributing and enforcing usage becomes quite daunting. While Bohemia may have chosen to enforce usage rights in limited capacity in the past (not even sure) I don't think they are interested in doing at scale based on their Reforger Licenses & IP FAQ: "For example: We will not track servers using the mod for you and/or ban them from the server list for using a mod against your custom license."

I guess what I am saying, I don't think you can solve people issues via technical (or legal) means.

[proper scroll]

While Bohemia may have chosen to enforce usage rights in limited capacity (not even sure) I don't think they are interested in doing at scale based on their Reforger Licenses & IP FAQ: "For example: We will not track servers using the mod for you and/or ban them from the server list for using a mod against your custom license."

I think this wouldn't be a huge issue actually. Mushroom management (cut the head off once grown big enough) would help to keep the workload of enforcing the license conditions tolerable here. What I mean is that the project maintainers could focus only on major servers/communities clearly using the stuff from the project, the small and/or starting communities could be happily ignored. (Kind of application of the Pareto principle: 80 % of progress comes from 20 % of actions) 😅

I guess what I am saying, I don't think you can solve people issues via technical (or legal) means.

This might be true indeed. It'd still be interesting to test something like this imho

[vast stump]

How I see it is a lot along how @barren tartan described it. CBA etc modding for moddings sake and for communitys betterment. Life mods generally mod for their own community.

Open life mod surely could be possible. Just as I see it, it would have to be "egoless" in same fashion CBA etc is made and not meant to grow a particular community but to be made for the greater good.

but the problem is as with pretty much everything, the people. 😅

[bold junco]

If it was going to work it would have with Everon Life imo. And that still has i think zero commits from anybody besides arkensor.

[vast stump]

yeah the problem of people 😅

[bold junco]

Everybody wanted a complete ready to go framework, but not to put in time and energy themselves.

Yep

Which is why the people who do put in the time and energy dont want to give it away.

[bitter pecan]

I'm not trying to take a jab at the life community but from my experience, I'd absolutely expect them to throw other life mods (including yours) in the microwave as soon as it releases to reheat it for their community

[bold junco]

Yeah I agree.

Im not even a life RP player really I messed with altis life on arma 3 a few times but never became a thing.

But yeah from what I've already seen, a bunch of snakes.

[rigid quiver]

that last part

[stiff ruin]

In my experience, managing the backend and doing bits of modding for a fairly popular life server, it's hard enough even finding people able and willing to help work on our server and the ones that do come to us either are asking to be taught from 0, or just take in whay knowledge they can then leave to do their own thing. We have modelers like crazy, but when it comes to scripting, there's 1.5 of us,myself being the .5. Having dealt with DDoS attacks, the highest being 438Gbit/s, other community owners using our framework, and those same communities maliciously stealing our player base, it makes it hard to even want to stay in the Life mod space.

Truly, it's the smaller communities that just pop up randomly that are problematic over the large ones. ELAN, Fountain, Narcos, and Badlands. I work on the Badlands project and between the other 3 I listed, it's been kept professional.

As for banding together a group of developers to work on a framework as you're describing, Blake did that and here we have Narcos.

Back to Badlands, because of the shady stuff described, there's been talks about making a open source framework since we can't stop people from stealing our mod 100%. Our website, discord Bot, and some backend scripts Ive created are all based on a the framework, and my plan is to have all of those be able to be picked up by other communited and ran by themselves, enabling a lot more than just having a mod and going from there.

At work rn so this might be a but here and there, but this should give some insight to the ongoings of the life communities

[dark radish]

I think many Reforger life servers flop because a lot of the owners are too busy trying to RP as a CEO, maybe it's because of bad standards set by RP servers in other games but they tend to be the most egregiously monetized communities. Many of them seem to be a business project first and a mod second

[prime pollen]

If you’re making a life server to make money you can almost guarantee that there’s zero rp happening

Ruins the genre

[stiff ruin]

Thank god we're the opposite but these server costs are catching up to us. We have a server open with monetization enabled, but nobody plays on it. We have another server, more community driven with dependencies and stuff the community wants that fairs well enough. Gotta do what's right for the community or else there won't be one

[dark radish]

Probably wishful thinking but I would really like to see the process systemized, if Workshop had a built in payment gateway allowing servers to request and negotiate licensing from authors to use a mod on their monetized server it could make it a lot easier and more likely for monetized servers to get permission to use mods (so they aren't stuck with barebones content and get more players) and for the modders to monetize their mods via an agreed cut on sales monetized servers with their mod make through the system

[vast stump]

this isnt supposed to be business

and putting in money is very very problematic

as then you get taxes and what not

[prime pollen]

Soo will you guys host our servers?

[vast stump]

and actual real responsiblity

[prime pollen]

Lol jk

[vast stump]

no

you dont have to if you dont want to or cant afford to

we dont force you to do it

but everyone always forgets the not so nice parts of money in this regard

and when you start have to pay taxes and deal with VAT it wont be so fun anymore

[prime pollen]

about 200 in donations a month is enough to run 2 servers

Could make it a non profit company

Soo no tax etc

[vast stump]

also customer service and ensuring your paid mod that does not really make much profit works or you have to refund

[vast stump]

I really really doubt that would work

but feel free to consult lawyer

anyway

lets not start another monetization circle

[dark radish]

Mods could just choose not to enable it for their mod, I was just thinking such a system could be a great way to incentivise modders to permit their work to be used on other people's monetized servers allowing those communities to grow more while also compensating the modders who otherwise put in thousands of hours of work for thousands of players to enjoy for free

[prime pollen]

It’s not a bad idea, but then you will just get people making mods to monetize them

[vast stump]

anyway

like I said

this topic has been exhausted many times already

[prime pollen]

All modders are volunteering their time, you can’t expect any return for making a mod on a game you don’t run

If you want to make money making mods there’s plenty of other platforms

Make a bunch of Roblox mods specifically to fund your arma server lol

[dark radish]

I mean we already have monetized servers and people making mods to monetize them so what would be the difference there? People can already make deals in DMs. Having it systemized would just make things more transparent and efficient. If you don't want your mod used on any monetized servers you could just disable the feature so everyone knows it's not even an option instead of having people spamming your DMs to try and get permission

[prime pollen]

The technicality is that no mods are being monetized

It’s only servers that are

[brittle ibex]

and when you start have to pay taxes and

[brittle ibex]

*on Arma Reforger, officially

(as there are multiple mod marketplaces for Arma 3 & DayZ, and multiple reports of privates trades for Reforger mods in this channel)

But there has mention of changes to the policy on this, which will be interesting (#other_ip_topics message)

[bold junco]

I think what ruins the genre is a bunch of entitled people that think they are entitled to hundreds or thousands of hours of peoples work without chipping in anything themselves.

"But i dont have time i have real life" as if the modders don't also smh

[inland sphinx]

Life servers compete with eachother for most players, using unique features only they have, and doing that with as little effort as possible.
Working on a unified framework so everyone can have the same features, goes counter that.

Wheras with CBA, it was to make it easier for modders and mission makes to create their own unique content, for fun, not for benefit or player count.
Modders generally don't compete with eachother, the way that servers do.

Competition, kills cooperation.
You would need one guy who doesn't care about competition, builds something valuable from ground up, and then others starting to depend on it and hopefully some will contribute (likely not though, because everyone wants to be unique). But Everon life went nowhere ish.

[prime pollen]

You mean people stealing mods? Or paying to have them made?

[bold junco]

I mean people being shitty.

[prime pollen]

I’m not following

[bold junco]

People that are unwilling to use any of their time to learn any skills or do any of the tedious work.And live a delusion that somehow modders were born with these skills and that they have more hours in a day than everybody else.

And then turn around and say, modders are greedy or doing it for the wrong reasons.

[prime pollen]

Oh yeah I’ve dealt with my fair share

I just usually say to those people that, every modder started not knowing about the engine, they want something so bad they can go learn it like everyone else did and make it themselves

I’ll offer my help as well, and that usually shuts them up because 99% of the time they will suggest stuff but never actually think about what it takes to make it

[inland sphinx]

But most people want it "now".
Because.. by the time they would've learned it, they would've lost interest.
Some dude messaged me a few weeks ago, asking to help him set up a life server..
I instantly know, it will be a huge failure because if he can't be bothered to learn how to set one up, he can't be bothered to keep it running

[bold junco]

People don't understand that pretty much every part of it is a time sink.

They think it's going to be "fun"

[prime pollen]

The hardest part of making a life server is the database, and up until 1.6 we pretty much have only arks mods to use for one

[prime pollen]

It’s fun until u can’t figure out how to fix something and lose half your server pop because of it

stares in Bohemia

[bold junco]

It's fun when you get something working.But, to be honest, ninety percent of it is tedious crappy work.

That's why nobody wants to do it.

[bold junco]

I like to think that's what we're doing, but who knows.

The part about the guy that doesn't care about competition.

But I do care about giving away my work to a bunch of hyenas.

[stiff ruin]

Gotta have passion for modding big time to run a life server. We're 2 years in and still learning new things and fixing up old stuff. Idk if anyone else really has done it but our mod was originally based off of everon life, which I still think it is at its core even now. The amount of people on our server that have something happen cus of a bug in our framework then go and complain about it saying, "i made a web page before, how's your game buggy, it's easy" is just laughable

[bold junco]

Yep. It is roughly 20x harder and more time consuming than the average player gives it credit for.

Very demotivating and infuriating.

[bitter pecan]

You could always use HTTP requests to communicate with your API, that's what i did(tho i didn't do a life project)

[tired plover]

I can think of a few commissioned mods on A3 that innovated. I could see it as a net positive, people will always do it anyway.

[bold junco]

Yeah agreed. I know they dont want it to be a "business" but like it or not, this stuff takes a TON of time, and time = money.

And also other expenses for software, servers, etc..of course.

[tired plover]

People have been making businesses off of games forever, just a reality. Especially in a sandbox environment like this wjth various rp, life and milsim communities

Folks with deep pockets will come in and bank roll what they want to see, it already happens

[icy linden]

True, especially since using the local filesystem as an actual database doesnt scale beyond a dev environment, not to mention iz silly for redundancy reasons among other things

[stiff ruin]

I do this for the server I work on, good mix of EPF and the REST API. EPF for anything physical, REST for anything virtual like bank accounts, storing K/D. iirc theres ~70 points of data attached to a player through their profile.

All stored in MongoDB, that information is then used by staff through our website's staff panel and discord bot. Also got a leaderboard to display of most playtime and money made. Our bans are managed through this along with many other tools for staff that allow them to answer tickets with ease.

Then for EPF, I replicate the json database to mongo so it can be used to view any information available through that. Like what's in a player's locker, what's on their character, what's in their vehicles. I love data

[vast stump]

you can send us the names and proof thanks.

[brittle ibex]

Mikero's Tools?
infiSTAR?
The hundreds of innovative mods on the various marketplaces that kept A3 & DayZ servers engaging throughout the years (which otherwise wouldn't have existed without the incentive of the marketplace)?

[vast stump]

I meant mods that are paid for.

bit in any case. Monetization topic is now closed. It leads nowhere.

[brittle ibex]

Sure, I won’t comment on it further. You can be honest about the reasoning, though; it’s closed because it’s a topic you (personally) don’t like, not because there isn’t a valid discussion to be had 🙁

[vast stump]

there is no valid discussion to be had and its not even related to the channels topic.
It theres been no progress in it for years, the arguments are always the same, it just loops the same words over and over.

[inland coral]

Is there a way to get into contact with the WCS team to edit the skins of their helos?

[vast stump]

They have a discord

[inland coral]

Oh sweet

[ocean tartan]

I have a question...so I've been trying to get used to doing things on the Enfusion workbench, and I am creating my own mods. A mod that I would like to make would be a fan interpretation of the game's possible Nations, flags, uniforms, and weapons of the game Paper's Please, it says that it is open to being used as long as it is labeled as unofficial and that the original creator is not a part of the creation of the mod on their own website.

I just wanted to know if this is an ok game ip to create a mod for or if it breaks the license agreement with the workbench usage?

[calm ridge]

AFAIK, you would need permission from the creators of whatever you're copying unless your thing is only very vaguely and generally inspired.

[bitter pecan]

As long as you're not stealing their assets or whatever you can do it.

Just make sure whatever model you use is also not a ripped asset and you will be good, papers please do not own the concept of making a "checkpoint simulator", tho you might not want to name it papers please.

[ocean tartan]

Well, that’s not the idea. I just want to create the Nations and use the imagery in terms of flags and national seals

[bitter pecan]

That sounds like a grayer area idk, could always drop an email to the game company of that other game

[vast stump]

is basically the right approach. Contact the owner/author

[ocean tartan]

Ok, thank you!

[ocean tartan]

@vast stump Hey I have a question in regard to something that I wanted to create and I just wanted to know if it was ok before uploading anything. I was recommended to ask you, if not sorry to bug you

[ocean tartan]

It has to deal with symbolism, if DMing you is ok let me know! Thank you

[vast stump]

Yes you can DM me.

[obsidian verge]

Do i report ripped Warthunder assets (Arma 3 Steam Workshop mod) in #ip_rights_violations or directly to Gaijin ?

[vast stump]

gaijin would be the people who can request such to be taken down so report first to them

[true vigil]

Just saw a mod with the ID 60F4F2DD0E3F772 get banished. No clue what it was though. Anyone got any idea?

[vast stump]

EveronXArland

[true vigil]

Oh thanks.

[vast stump]

#workshop_admin channel can be used for this kind of inquiries in the future as its more dedicated channel for that

[inland coral]

Would paying someone to make a texture count as commerical?

[abstract crest]

Only if the texture you are given has gone through BI Tools to be game ready.

[inland coral]

So like, retexturing a RHS patch for someone for payment

Is that commercial?

Is it more like making a paid mod?

[abstract crest]

Best to get an answer from BI. In ARMA 3 and before these are the rules: https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property For them, buying/selling paas are forbidden, but non-paa are fine. Services to convert non-paas to paas is forbidden. Basically if BI Tools are used in the work flow it cannot be monetized at all

[inland coral]

I’m asking about the RHS license

If I make a texture for someone and get paid, they then put the legos together

Is that commercial

I don’t touch any Bohemia tools

[abstract crest]

Oh, RHS is very clear: You may NOT use the material for commercial purposes so no monetization

[calm ridge]

Monetization of the new mod at all, stuff in RHS, or monetization involving making the mod?

[abstract crest]

On this, honestly not sure. That would be allowed under BI's rules but with RHS involved it's more complicated and if you yourself are touching RHS stuff then their license wouldn't allow it.

[inland coral]

That’s my question

Like is paying an artist to make a sticker commercial???

If I get paid to make some art for patches is that commercial?

[calm ridge]

Yes, but is it the commercial that RHS is talking about 🤷 Who knows? (They do)

[inland coral]

So lik

[abstract crest]

Again. For BI, if it touches tools then forbidden. If not, allowed.

[inland coral]

I paid someone to make this sticker for me a few months back

It could technically be commercial if I make it a patch

[inland coral]

Brother I am not touching BI tools

I’ve said that like 3 times

The artist and the implementation are two different people

[abstract crest]

Then you need to ask RHS. Some of their team are often here, so maybe hang and see whether they respond

They generally do 😉

[inland coral]

I can’t even send a message in their chat

[abstract crest]

They are active here, but if you are just giving an image for someone else to integrate into their mod that adds it to RHS uniforms then I (someone not in RHS) don't see that it would break the license

For a patch, a uniform would be different I'd guess cause you'd need a template of their texture layout

[blazing epoch]

That is fine as long as you don't even use any of the RHS textures for the UVs. I don't really see how this is worth it though in any capacity. They can't drag a png on another png?

One of the RHS guys will respond to you and clear it up, but I wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole personally.

[inland coral]

the ToS is just annoyingly vague

I could see any art I commissioned, even if it's not made for it originally counting as potentially commerical

[blazing epoch]

Not really, if you pay someone to create an image, then you put the image in game it's fine

If they make the image and size it for a patch using RHS textures then it gets hazy, that's the issue

[inland sphinx]

The person you paid, made it for a commercial purpose.

If that artist used some template to make it (like a RHS texture), they would've used that template for a commercial purpose. They used it to make money off of it.
Which RHS in this case forbids.

[zealous ore]

yes it would be. source = me

in order to make a patch, or a retexture of any sorts, you would need to use either the template provided, or the base of an existing texture. The textures, models, UVs etc are all covered by the same license. Whoever you would be willing to pay for, would need to use one of our existing assets which are all covered by the same existing NC license, which is forbbiden.

[rugged prawn]

however...if you paid someone to just make some art for you and then you yourself took that art and used Blender, substance painter, workshop tools to make it into a patch, then this is not commercial and is allowed. you can pay someone to make some art for you that you turn into a patch, you cannot pay someone to make a patch for you.

[silver lotus]

Hey yall I was wondering, does anybody know Challenge158? I've seen'em on the workshop and would really like to get into contact and discuss on of the maps made by them, thank you in advance if you can point me the right way!

[blazing epoch]

Think https://discord.com/channels/105462288051380224/979405352850305144 would get you your answer better than here, unless this is IP related

[silver lotus]

Thanks! That channel wasn't in my list so I never saw it thank you so much!

[dusk tiger]

Hey, was wondering if the unbinarized models from the Take On Helicopters public data pack can be used in Reforger mods under APL-SA?

[abstract crest]

No. Only if BI give permission. Permission for the use of the binarized LDPs for TOH in ARMA under APL-SA is explicitly given but the Samples page explicitly says TOH only and is licensed under TOPL-SA only

You can see that in these images. The first is the description of the binarized TOH Licensed Data Pack where permission is given for use in ARMA, the second is the license on the TOH Samples page which is very clear in saying "use in TOH only"

[vast stump]

unbinarizing any p3d is strictly forbidden

[abstract crest]

Yeah, that too, which is why the LDPs are only useful for RV-based ARMAs

[dusk tiger]

I meant the models that are already unbinarized, there was some samples I was looking at. I am aware that it also includes binarized models and those are forbidden to mess with.
Thanks for the images, the 2nd one answered to what I was looking for

[vast stump]

you can DM me the details and I can see if anything can be arranged.

[dusk tiger]

okay I just sent a DM, cheers

[solid basin]

hey sorry if this is in wrong place but i wanted to ask if its ok to make a tool that tampers with arma PBOs? I dont mean anything like cheating of course but to debug uses of certain arma commands so I can put them in CfgDisabledCommands list

[inland sphinx]

What is definition of tamper?

Unpack/Repack a pbo? no

[solid basin]

insert debug code in function inside the PBO

no unpack required

[inland sphinx]

You will need to repack if you change the length of the file

If the end result is equal to unpack, edit file, repack. Then it doesn't matter

[solid basin]

well i think the PBO library i use can overwrite the PBO with new text, without additional packing

[inland sphinx]

Sounds fine to do.
The signatures will break, the hash might break, but you don't care probably

[solid basin]

ok great

[fiery egret]

Also the hash won't match anymore, as well, even with the same size

[solid basin]

probably cant join servers with modified data but thats ok

[inland sphinx]

My ArmaPboLib can patch a pbo like that too. While keeping hash and stuff working

It is basically just unpack/repack, but repack it wrongly XD
Unpack and repack is fine yes, and you are free to do it wrongly too. But I'll be angry if you crash the game 😄

[fiery egret]

My yapbol lib can do that as well, if you're into python
Maybe there's no need to implement anything by yourself

I mean mine will repack, so if you're after ultra speed, then that may not be what you need though

[hallow forge]

i mean it sounds like he's just trying to add diagnostics to some vanilla function, he genuinely probably doesnt need anything "usable" beyond that let alone anything that can be considered as tampering any more than personalizing your settings in a dev environment 😄

[solid basin]

this is the lib i use, it can read and write PBO https://www.nuget.org/packages/BisUtils.PBO/1.0.23/

[inland sphinx]

That can patch?
In the source code, the writing code is not implemented and has a //TODO on it
But maybe its somewhere else

[solid basin]

maybe bad link but if by patch you mean write without unpack then yes

[half violet]

Hey does anyone know if it's ok to make Gears of war mod for Reforger. I see Arma 3 has mods like that not sure if that's ok.

[vast stump]

you would have to consult the IP owners guidelines or seek permission from the IP owner

Arma3 mods like that are likely not just got caught yet

[abstract crest]

According to BI's Intellectual Property wiki page: https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property But that is for ARMA 3 for Steam Workshop

Same license as for HALO

[pliant oracle]

yep different game, different permission

[mossy yarrow]

i actually wonder what "seems to be accepted mean" did someone ever contacted microsoft studios for that ?

[abstract crest]

Generally yeah. And when things change, like GSC did for STALKER stuff it is generally reported and discussed often leading to an edit of the page

[mossy yarrow]

interesting thanks for the info

[cyan geyser]

Good Afternoon,

I was wondering how the modders for the vote were selected? Was there criteria that allowed modders to be nominated to profit off the enfusion engine? will we be given equal oppertunity to reward our dev teams for working on the engine or is this exclusive to those who were picked for funding. We would be interested in applying for the ability to compensate some of our devs for they're enfusion work, but have always understood we cant profit off your engine.

Any response is appreciated. Thank you for your time!

[trim peak]

My response is that I do not think the people behind this really put much thought into it before making it public.

Do the contributors of these mods get a piece of the pie even if they are no longer with the mod team or do they need to have a money dispute with them or get them to remove their work if the mod team says no therefor depending on your contributions could effect the mod negatively if such work is removed.

There are a lot of things that could go wrong here. Its a shame because a lot of these mods deserve some compensation for the hard work.

[chrome hearth]

We were chosen based off of our "influence" on the community. Helpfulness, bringing in players. Things like that.

We didn't apply or anything. We were just chose based off of whatever factors they used.

[abstract crest]

Deservedly from what I've heard 🙂

[cyan geyser]

Concur

[cyan geyser]

Ah I see, I was just wondering if there was an objective criteria, but my question is answered. Thank you!

[icy linden]

Idk if it's worth getting an infraction to explain what the point of that whole thing is

[trim peak]

Shoot for the stars

[zinc mantle]

I just find it remarkably questionable to put teams like RHS among other (assumably) much smaller creators by comparison. Additionally having a poll in discord doesn't even require the voter(s) to have Reforger? There's also been a series of questionable moves from Bohemia PR over the last ~6 months that doesn't exactly instill confidence in overall integrity. Again I just find it to be, as @trim peak said, a decision that was not well thought out.

And regarding RHS specifically, was there not a discussion in the past on what'd happen if RHS won the MANW competition due to some of their team working for Bohemia?

[trim peak]

Like I said. Was not very well planned out at all.

[rugged prawn]

RHS could not participate in MANW because some members are BI employees. How could it have won?

[zinc mantle]

Precisely

[rugged prawn]

what?

[zinc mantle]

So how is it able to participate in this?

[rugged prawn]

in this what? the poll?

[zinc mantle]

Yeah

[rugged prawn]

because its a public poll and not judged by Bohemia staff so its not biased in that way?

what's the problem of bohemia staff getting donations for things they do in their spare time for free?

[zinc mantle]

It's a donation now?

[vast stump]

This channel is not for discussing the support packs

@zinc mantle I see your are taking a RHS hostile stance here and try to bait some sort of argument

so step away from your keyboard

[zinc mantle]

Fair enough mate

Shut it down before any valid points are made

[vast stump]

and yes I would say the same thing if you for whatever reason were complaining about some of the other names on the list

[zinc mantle]

Point me in the right direction then pretty please

[vast stump]

there isnt one.

[zinc mantle]

Shock

I shall step away now my point has been made

[vast stump]

the "discussion" you want to invoke is not meant in any way constructive

you have not been active in the community for 3 years and now come to make accusations

I find that highly suspicious

laugh all you want

[zinc mantle]

I don't usually feel the desire to talk in here, I just stick to the workshop and actually do things

[vast stump]

👍 sounds good

[zinc mantle]

Actually one last thing are you associated with RHS?

[vast stump]

no

Im not part of any mod team

[vast stump]

who are you associated with?

[zinc mantle]

Myself

[vast stump]

right right

[zenith turret]

where do we discuss the support packs?

[vast stump]

in what way?

[zenith turret]

in a way that we get more information about them

https://giphy.com/gifs/shocked-big-sean-cell-phone-ylyUQkGsUNoJLlVOyk

also if yall want some assistence with PR and public optics let me know.

time and time again i've watched public announcements bite you guys in the ass

[vast stump]

thanks I'll pass on the offer

[copper crescent]

damned if you do, damned if you don’t; there will always be some sort of scrutiny even when the announcements are regarded as good news

I think one thing collectively the community should be happy about is being able to get these announcements, updates, proper contact in the discord with the devs. There is games that don’t even put out half that effort for their community.

[vast stump]

in any case

this is not the channel to discuss it

please keep it on the actual topic of IP issues

[vast stump]

Lot of you seem to not be able to read and keep posting reaction spam.

Deleting them is waste of my time so next one gets 30d vacation from here.

Some have already missed this text so lets make it more visible

[pliant oracle]

i keep seeing Mechanix gloves on most of mods, are those thing copyrighted?

[cyan geyser]

Okay so where can we discuss support packs ?

Because it just seems like you guys don’t want to talk about it.

[barren tartan]

Didn't they say the other day there is no "dedicated" channel for it? So try #general_chat_arma or something?

[cyan geyser]

As someone who engages 300+ players consistently and brings new ones to your game, I feel like I should at-least be allowed to talk about it?

[barren tartan]

where did they forbid it? They just said not here in this channel.

[cyan geyser]

Ill wait for guidance on where they want to talk about it at

[cyan geyser]

Okay thank you

Glad to see subjective decision making with money involved and not accepting any dialog. Sick

[coral juniper]

@cyan geyser This is wrong channel indeed.
Use #reforger_questions if it's a quesiton. Or #reforger_feedback if it's feedback.

[unreal cipher]

Thats actually a good question. Im working on some mechanix originals and so far the mods that have them dont get issues from it. A ton of games have them listed by name so i would think theyre fine but i dont know for certain.

[vast stump]

even if people have received permission from the IP owner you would have to seek that for yourself as well

[vast stump]

yes

[unreal cipher]

i see. thank you for the info

[thick yacht]

so probably beating a dead horse, but I don't think people can not allow other servers to not run their mods without the exception of running a back end or hidden dependency. remind me again, isn't directly saying you can't run a mod on an "unauthorized" server against TOS? I remeber this conversation about a year ago, but can't recall the outcome. Doesn't seem enforceable (I do think there is legitamacy in making the mod un playable on "unauthorized servers" because that is built in to the mod)
so like a back end check, etc, baked into the mod. but I think it's against the tos to state that servers can't run the mod. correct me if I'm wrong, or something has changed?

[abstract crest]

Thay can under certain rules but only in "a non malicious" way. It is clearly explained in https://reforger.armaplatform.com/news/workshop-licenses-and-ip-faq

[thick yacht]

thank you

[vast stump]

They can yes as Grahame mentions. While we do encourage people to share mods, the mod authors right to choose that exists.

[thick yacht]

Well, your direct yes is a lot different than the post above.

Anyways the licenses and IP faws answers the question clearly.

[vast stump]

The FAQ will need some updating at some point yes. My answer is the one youll need.

[thick yacht]

Well you aren't wrong, licensing is up to the creator, enforcement and legitimacy is a different story. Also it should be noted that guard rails can be built into mods to only perform on certain servers, which imo is completely acceptable. I will say that TOS does take precedent over a discord conversation. Regardless of who you are talking to. The TOS language is very clear about how this works/enforcement/what can be done vs what can't. So until an official document is updated, what it says is "law" if that makes sense. Appreciate you guys, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Glad that enforcement and allowing mod creators to dictate what server a mod is allowed to run on will be updated eventually in the TOS, I think that's a big move in the right direction.

[weary pine]

Hey, I have a few questions I was hoping you guys could help me with

I'm i allowed to run an external helper that calls Win32 APIs against arma3_x64.exe for development tooling (no binary patching, no code injection)?

Is reparenting the Arma game window into another app window via SetParent permitted, or considered prohibited tampering/interference with the game client UI?

Is creating process minidumps of Arma 3 for debugging tooling allowed, and are there conditions (internal-only, no redistribution, no anti-cheat sessions)?

[inland sphinx]

Depends.
Yes, no.
Yes (But I wonder what for, when you can't read them, but if its for developing extensions or such, of course), BattlEye will block you from doing it.

[weary pine]

Will start with question 1.

What dose it depend on?

[covert bear]

Just state what you are trying to do, having to guess from some vague description isn't helpful.

[opal scroll]

I can help expand on this - we're working on a little passion project that aims to give A3 a managed project suite, sort've like Enfusion Workbench. Taking some shape but want to make sure we're up and up before making this OSS.

Window reparenting will be used to place the A3 window inside our GUI, similar to workbench. This is only intended for offline use and isn't allowed unless BattleEye is disabled.

Dropping the memory stuff since that only takes us down the RE path - disregard - extension ABI is more than enough 🙂

[weary pine]

See above from Grom

[vast stump]

What kind of functionality do you expect to make?

[opal scroll]

The only feature that would still be somewhat questionable would be the window reparenting.
This is simply for novelty and QOL.

We have custom P3D/PAA/PBO drivers that don't do anything outside of what's already out there (legally) - no support for binarized assets - MLOD, no ODOL.

Debugging and tests use the RVExtension ABI, just doing IPC over a TCP socket - all sqf above that layer.

Everything else falls under resource management and version control, should be no problem.

Can toss you the repo if you want to give it a glance 🤙

[weary pine]

Above

[inland sphinx]

What dose it depend on?
Which API you use and for what purpose

[inland sphinx]

That has been tried before by others. I don't see a problem with it.

[inland sphinx]

of what's already out there (legally)
The stuff thats out there is not entirely legal. But tolerated. MLOD/PAA (And unsure about PBO) format was also illegally reverse engineered, but most of it came from the old OFP times, before this was properly enforced.
Both due to it being out there so long, and us recognizing the positive value it can bring (Although we have also observed some negatives, where we will still enforce this), we tolerate its use (in most cases).

The wiki says basically that

If you need more Extension API for your use case, you can ask and maybe we can do something for you. Sounds like a nice thing you're building, if it works out.
X39 once tried to do something like that with "Arma.Studio" but ran out of time to continue with it.

[opal scroll]

Awesome! Thanks!

[weary pine]

@inland sphinx Will keep you updated as we move along! Thanks for all your help

[pliant oracle]

@coral juniper I have a question regarding the usage of Arma Tools and Enfusion, I sent you a DM regarding the question as it's a bit different topic than usual over here.

[kind prism]

Ya'll ever just asked an Ai program who owns the copyright to the images it creates?

[covert bear]

idk what this is about but I don't suggest asking AI for legal advice unless you like hallucinated laws

[kind prism]

Co-Pilots response to the qeustion is why I asked. I've seen it mentioned in this and the other IP chat that you don't own ai images.

[tired plover]

Microsoft's stance on the matter has been exactly what it told you. They don't want to own it, therefore it is yours. It's not really correct as of this moment, but if they fight that policy in court and win, it all of a sudden becomes correct. Keep in mind that this is a massively unsettled area of already nuanced law in the US. The copyright's office of "meaningful edits" being the baseline for human ownership of an AI generated image is open to a whole lot of interpretation as well, some of which has guidance in case law, but we'll continue to see it progress in the next year or two.

[wide spear]

I was told to come here to properily ask this question. I wanted to add armour from Darktide however I am not exactly sure about if I am allowed without exclusive permission.

[halcyon moth]

Probably not
unless you ask Fatshark and get direct permission from them to use their models in other titles
-# good luck with that tho

[wide spear]

I fail to see how exactly it is an issue, they would not lose money and I wouldn't gain money

[crimson garden]

They're not your assets

Plain and simple, has nothing to do with money

[halcyon moth]

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property#Frequently_Asked_Questions
from the biki

[vast stump]

No

[meager fractal]

you already have the no, ask them and risk getting a yes 😉

[stiff ruin]

Could I message a mod/dev about a api service I am creating? I'll give more detail in dm, mainly want to make sure that mod integration with it doesn't violate tos before I continue as I am

[meager fractal]

Hi, please DM @vast stump 🙂

[vast stump]

as @meager fractal adviced you can DM me the details

[stiff ruin]

Message sent. Thank you

[frozen bramble]

Can someone give me a link to the section of the tos for server donations. Please

[calm ridge]

Donations are allowed and not restricted if they remain donations.
If a "donation" has any kind of benefit, compensation, reward, etc., it is monetization and not a donation.
Monetization is not allowed at all without permission. https://www.bohemia.net/monetization

[frozen bramble]

Thank you

[terse zodiac]

@vast stump Writing a library for config.cpp language in zig and am wondering if use outside of supporting dayz and arma is allowed. Its written in zig so alot of people in the zig community want to use the project since theres nothing really like it out without even knowing where the language comes from.

[vast stump]

where would config.cpp be used other than Arma/Dayz?

its not really a coding language

just setup for writing the config

[terse zodiac]

Game engines - the way I wrote it its modular and can be added via regexes so people in the zig community have been using it to create their custom languages by adding onto another one thats a-bit more polished then the ingame implementation.

zig is a very small niche community so people tend to like using projects for all sorts of things

[terse zodiac]

Its not configured for dayz/arma by default

it goes off of schema

[sturdy hound]

Hey @vast stump sorry to bother, hope your having a great weekend!

I want to get some Anduril and Jetson brand stuff into the game. Was going to ask Palmer (founder/owner of company) for permission to use them but wanted to check if it would even be allowed from you end of things if I did receive permission. Anduril is privately own defense company specializing in drones and Jetson makes personal evtol. Thanks

[vast stump]

if theres permission to use brand name that is fine by us. You could just make new makebelieve brand names and that would be fine too.

[sturdy hound]

Understood, thank you! It was more in reference to the models themselves as I'm assuming those are IP

[oak hare]

Good luck with Jetson they might say yes, but don't waste your time with Anduril; 0% odds.

[calm ridge]

You can model stuff like vehicles, weapons, etc., without permission because you're making a artistic thing and not an IRL thing. You'll be fine as long as you don't include brand names or logos.

[sturdy hound]

Curious what makes you say that about Anduril?

[vast stump]

if its specifically their model like something they provide then they own the model IP.

If you make a model that looks about like the real thing thats artistic representation.

game models do not have to be absolute 100% real things

and honestly they never are

however models sold online might be licensed in way that cant be used in games (editorial license etc)

[sturdy hound]

Oh word, I just assumed stuff like vehicles would be protected same as music or something. Well that makes things a lot easier lmao. Thanks guys

[oak hare]

Curious what makes you say that about

[lavish heart]

Can the Swiss flag be used as an alternative to the Red Cross

[mossy yarrow]

Is it allowed in Reddit to post artwork of Star Wars ? I thought Disney is very strict about their IP and that even scratch made mods are a problem ?

[near swallow]

Arma artwork?

[mossy yarrow]

Yes

[wraith nebula]

Arma redits are not moderated by BI moderators unfortunatly as far as i know.

[mossy yarrow]

Not even the Arma official reddit ?

[abstract crest]

Actually probably not, at least according to Article 11 ("Misuse of the white cross on a red ground") of the ICRC's "Model Law On The Emblems"

[wraith nebula]

No, so our discord/forum rules are not being applied there.

[mossy yarrow]

Aight thanks for the quick answer

[inland sphinx]

Depends where the "Star Wars" comes from I guess.
And whether you cound intellectual property theft/trademark violations, under this

[wraith nebula]

Unfortunately their moderators do not do the checks we do 😅 reason why the A3 SW is so popular on redit 😉

[abstract crest]

I'd argue that the reason it is so popular is because the starsim stuff is in itself very popular...

[wraith nebula]

True, but also because that is the only place not moderated like official social apps from/with BI moderation giving them all the space they need.😉

[tall grove]

Good afternoon,

I would like to report potential violations regarding the use of Arma 3 licensed content and community modifications. The following mods/servers are directly based on the ongoing war in Ukraine and openly support or promote this theme. In two cases, this is explicitly stated within the mod or server descriptions themselves.

Evidence and references:

Steam Workshop item — evidence shown in Screenshot 1:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3626713777
Steam Workshop item — evidence shown in Screenshot 2:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3606147119
BattleMetrics server page — evidence shown in Screenshot 3:
https://www.battlemetrics.com/servers/arma3/38756186

I was unable to locate the local modification used by the third server, however the RHS mod pack appears to be included within their collection/build.

I believe this content may violate community guidelines and/or the licensing terms associated with Arma 3 modifications and assets. I kindly ask you to review the listed content and take appropriate action if violations are confirmed.

Thank you for your attention.

[vast stump]

for this we have a shiny new ticket system you can try out at #a3-workshop_tickets

[tall grove]

Ty

[knotty latch]

I have a quick question regarding what license a mod would have to be when it has the following:
– Purchased royalty‑free 3D models from CGTrader
– Some images used for textures (for example rank insignia) from Wikipedia images that are under a ShareAlike license (for example CC BY‑SA 4.0)

Since CC BY‑SA requires share‑alike, does that mean the entire mod must be released under APL‑SA?

And if so, is it still allowed to include purchased assets (like CGTrader models) inside an APL‑SA mod?

Also, for mods that only use purchased assets (no CC BY‑SA content), are those allowed under any of the APL licenses, or only APL‑ND?

[calm ridge]

You can license specific assets separately.

[vast stump]

:this. 👆 but youll have to make a list of what is licensed under which one

[knotty latch]

Okay, just to make sure I understand what the answer means, would the following be accurate based on the answer?:

• A mod is allowed to contain both the CGTrader models and the CC BY‑SA 4.0 images for textures in the same mod, and the mod itself can still use any of the APL licenses, since each asset keeps its own license

• The only thing that needs to be done is to clearly state the license of each asset (for example in the mod description)

[vast stump]

yes. Custom license is an option in the license menu.
Also see below.

[coral juniper]

Not really

Many assets or resources might actually force you to have very specific licenses for the end product, even if their asset made 0.1% of the end product

Read the licenses of the assets you buy, and the software and libraries you use.

[tall grove]

Please let me know the expected response time?

[vast stump]

Looks like one of the mods is already gone. But beyond that I do not know

[wild copper]

I know the FAQ kind of covers this but I'm still finding it sort of hard to understand. If I take a mod that says "No distribution or editing" as a custom license, inherit a prefab, change a component or two, maybe add my own texture, then upload my mod to the workshop under the same license, does that count as distribution and editing? Or is it only if I change the files directly?

[outer belfry]

im no one to respond to this but i do Believe that would infact constitute as Editing and Distributing as you are making a link from your mod to there mod and modifying the Assets Texture Files the Prefab side changing the components goes away from what the original Idea was

[vast stump]

it may depend on the exact wording of the license

touching textures does count as file editing and derivate work

[main sage]

Though, if your file you upload is this:

Vehicle : "{CBD8C2393BE87581}Prefabs/Vehicles/Core/Helicopter_Base.et" {
 ID "57DA6675519A417B"
 components {
  ActionsManagerComponent "{C97BE5489221AE18}" {
   ActionContexts {
    UserActionContext "{68FF6DA93A568BA0}" {
     ContextName "tdl_crypto"
     Position PointInfo "{68FF6DA932E7E145}" {
      Offset -0.0808 0.9256 0.7779
     }
    }
   }
   additionalActions {
    AG0_VehicleRadioFillAction "{68FF6DA90592E7B9}" {
     ParentContextList {
      "tdl_crypto"
     }
     UIInfo SCR_ActionContextUIInfo "{68FF6DA900CFC06F}" {
     }
     VisibilityRange 3
    }
   }
  }
 }
}

No original content is included, so it's not derivative work. The game is what that takes this file, and overrides the other file. Don't think adding a guid to your GPROJ would even be considered derivative. The IP faq covers your case pretty well in which you can't protect the "artistic intent" of the thing you add to the game (like saying you can't make my vehicle faster/slower than I did), but yes a new texture will probably be considered derivative due to the restrictions of making a texture match a UV map, but that's the texture itself, not stuff like prefab overrides.

[lunar oar]

heh

[bright tide]

🤔

[cinder glacier]

🍿

[shell scaffold]

is this channel for drama or comedy?

[main steeple]

why not both?

[rigid oracle]

Considering it's a channel for discussing IP and copyrights other than just violations, I'm sure there will be plenty of dramedy.

[old jay]

Trolling will be dealt with accordingly

[wintry yoke]

finally a channel worth muting

[shell scaffold]

so

the many AK styled rifles in the world

is that because the producing country could not acquire an AK production license?

Also did arma have to purchase a license to add the AKM with Apex

[inland sphinx]

What is the definition now on what fits into #ip_rights_violations and what doesn't? Is #ip_rights_violations only about Bohemia IP now and everything community should be handled here?

[toxic jolt]

I guess violations will be handled in the violations channel, both about BI and Community IP.
General questions about IP can be discussed here, just like Ambience did with his question.

@shell scaffold I don't know about Ak's, but with M4's you can't name it Colt M4, but M4 alone is okay.
I don't know where I read it, gotta check

[inland sphinx]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine#Trademark_issues

The court also ruled that "M4" was now a generic name, and that Colt's trademark should be revoked.

"AR 15" is also a trademark owned by colt.
What other designations are there for that rifle?

[toxic jolt]

But I've also heard that HK wanted to name their 416 HK M4, but Colt went to court and HK had to name it different: Hk416, a mix of m4 and m16.
Also not sure if this is true

[inland sphinx]

They did yeah.

That's what it says in my link

[toxic jolt]

Yea, just read it

[inland sphinx]

AK-47 was unprotected for a while. But they reacquired the trademark in 2016 according to news articles.
Though I can only find this one: https://trademarks.justia.com/881/39/ak-88139131.html and this is not accepted yet
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/04/05/kalashnikov-concern-registers-shape-ak-47/ also relevant
https://iz.ru/news/672944 pa-ruski source.

Soo... It's complicated. Apex DLC came out before that stuff happened sooo... Even more complicated.
And AKM != AK-47 so... dunno

[shell scaffold]

it’s a Russian trademark so no one respects it

and an AK-47 isn’t an AKM

completely different rifles

[rapid escarp]

AK etc. is the manufacturer's commercial name in the way AR-15 would be for an Armalite/Colt M16/M4

Russian military designation is something else, but rarely if ever used

6P1 for the AKM, 6P20 for AK-74 etc.

[shell scaffold]

Russian designation is much more common in gear

also there’s no way RHS was given the green light to use HMMWVs by AM

[rapid escarp]

We don't call them HMMWVs in game anyway - which is the trademarked aspect

They're all M1025 etc.

[wintry yoke]

^

[lean plover]

@toxic jolt
Even if they did learn, the way they fucked up it can't be forgiven

[toxic jolt]

Well, all I had to do with them was one time when they packed my mod into one of their obfuscated pbo's.
I contacted them and they removed it.

But how many times did they break the rules now? Like 4, 5 or 6 times?
The proved their willingness to learn from their mistakes....

[old jay]

Less F**ks please.

[lean plover]

it's one thing to screw up once, get educated and from then on play by the rules. but repentz keeps repeating this BS with every new project he's doing in hope nobody will notice

sry fm

[sweet patio]

You know what's cute, you ask someone to remove their upload of your mod and thy just remove your mods name from the description and call it a day.

[inland sphinx]

that star wars thing?

I got PM'ed by a guy about the same pack

[sweet patio]

ye

[inland sphinx]

Yet another Life server by Repentz that's using mods that don't allow monetization and that has already made $350 in the first couple weeks...

[wintry yoke]

This should be enough grounds to get his steam account banned imo

[old jay]

@white basalt its a good thing that I don’t need your opinion of how he feels about the matter. That IP and not to mention >95% of all other IP have restrictions in place which restrict / prevent their usage.

[grand fable]

are ebos not allowed? im referring to dis in the ip chat https://discordapp.com/channels/105462288051380224/105792634995388416/549312364663668757

[old jay]

No, they are prohibited

@grand fable

[grand fable]

oh why is that? ima guess its cause only BI can do it @old jay

[old jay]

That is correct and those who are using it had to reverse engineer it or are using someone else’s reverse engineered product. Either way an EULA violation and ban worthy offence.

[grand fable]

oh okay i see

[obsidian verge]

If you find a ebo send a mail to the address linked in #ip_rights_violations

[wet gate]

Afaik hmmwv isn't a trademark of gm since its a government designation/nomenclature.

"Am general" may be an issue, but I don't remember adding that to the tailgate or placards

[vast stump]

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/11/09/humvee-manufacturer-suing-activision-over-call-of-duty-vehicles/

Are you referring to this?

[wet gate]

Well if it never went to court there's no way we can tell whether or not it was legitimate. Also gm could have trademarked "humvee"

[wintry yoke]

I thought it did?

[wet gate]

So their claim rest on the use of "humvee" not hmmwv afaik and "trade dress". If it did go to court the results would be very interesting since it has far reaching implications.

Bi could be liable for thier use of the vehicle in a2

[wet gate]

Based on what I've read (like it even matters lol) trade dress doesn't necessarily protect the shape of a product, only the representation, so this would be very interesting to see what happens

[shell scaffold]

For what i originally said, anyone know if Bohemia had to actually pay for a license for the guns from Apex that use their actual names, AKM & AK-12 are examples I remember

Because I don't understand why they would pay for licenses for DLC weapons but not the base game

[rapid escarp]

AFAIK the GM6 is the only one that's somewhat licensed

[high wasp]

What do you guys think the consequences of EU Article 13 would be for the Steam Workshop? I hear a lot of chatter about it regarding Youtube and news aggregates, but nothing about the gaming world (yet).

It still boggles me that the law is even being proposed, and I'd like to think it won't pass, but, "what if?".

I would assume Steam would either A) start taking down stolen content and paying attention to creators, or B) remove workshop from EU

[proud helm]

modders are not gigantic news outlets or hostile music stupids

you will not see a lot of modders go around, running to their lawyer for that stuff

[old jay]

I'm fine with either (and both)

[proud helm]

and for everything else, DMCA is already there

[patent copper]

@high wasp I think with the current set of laws planned, Valve would need to implement some filter on upload as they are the ones responsible for possible IP issues

don't know how that will work though..

[proud helm]

@patent copper you should read what the german gema said about this: roughly translated, AI is nowadays capable of so much, it should be nö Problem to detect fair use vs abuse for it

https://twitter.com/gema_news/status/1098263167636041729

[lean plover]

GEMA at it's best... their twitter posts are as useful as the institution itself...

[wintry yoke]

well at least it's not an arma group of pretend-to-be lawyers

[cold verge]

What

[lean plover]

Nothing

[high wasp]

@proud helm If GEMA believes that it is so easy, then they should develop the AI for it.

Plenty of opensource machine learning libraries online. Grab one and make a cutting-edge never-before-invented parody recognition AI.

[uneven portal]

How do the ip rights go with company logos etc. If you make skins? For example making like a Coca-Cola livery for some car, does the logo need to be "made from scratch" or can you use some official logo?
Could company go DMCA after some skin in workshop because it's using their logo without permission?

[old jay]

iirc, yes

Logos are protected as well

[inland sphinx]

They can still get you even if you make the logo from scratch, if it's trademarked. Which most of big company logos are

[fiery egret]

Do the same as they did in DayZ: make a Nota-Cola livery instead 😉

[lean plover]

same goes for the red cross and red crescent symbols. they are protected and owned by the ICRC, also the geneva convention. some game devs might have special deals to use them, but to be sure better use the red crystal symbol

[white basalt]

-FM- you keep pinging me but then deleting the messages anyway, leading me to start to believe that I’m going slightly mad. All I was saying is that he wasn’t suggesting anything illegal or asking for anything to be changed. There was no call to action. He was just voicing his opinion on what he thought he would enjoy. I guess that sort of thing is perfect for this new channel then? Or would that be a different off topic

Also, does that mean the icrc has a legal team?

How does that work?

[shell scaffold]

they probably have a legal team in case any workers get arrested or something

like when the devs went to lemnos

[white basalt]

Also also does the icrc own the red crescent as well or is that owned by some “international committee of the red crescent”

True

[shell scaffold]

i think they are the same but the crescent is used when more appropriate

[white basalt]

Well my understanding is that the crescent is used in nations that would prefer to avoid having crosses

So I feel like it would kind of ruin the point if it was still the international committee of the Red Cross

@wintry yoke what a burn

[old jay]

@white basalt . The spam bot uses the username to delete posts. For example “! clear @ username 1” will delete 1 post. So if you’re receiving multiple pings with no messages, that is what’s happening. So, my advice to that would be to ensure that you are posting in relevant channels, ensure that your post is topical and contributory and that they follow the format requirements of that particular channel. These requirements can be found in the channel description, alternatives #info_help_tips and #rules

[wintry yoke]

@white basalt what burn?

[dense field]

Are we just ignoring old mate ^ that got asked to remove his swastika profile picture about a month ago and changed it to that? Just a bit edgy imo

[old jay]

What are you seeing that we’re not?

[wintry yoke]

I think he's gone insane D:

[dense field]

His little running man is just an edgelords version of a swastika just sayin

[inland sphinx]

who'se man?

[dense field]

St jimmy ^ there

[inland sphinx]

Quite sure that's a different guy

He had that avatar for years and is very present on the discord

[dense field]

Fair enough, someone got asked to remove a swastika with a red ring and changed it to that running man a while ago, and I've encountered edglords ect using it in this past when told the same thing. Found it kinda odd but ill leave it their.

[old jay]

@dense field thats the logo of DRI (Dirty Rotten Imbeciles) an American Thrash band. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_Rotten_Imbeciles

https://www.slugmag.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/dri009-800x480.jpg

There is "blatantly obvious", then there is really grasping at straws. There's a massive difference.

[dense field]

Like i said fair enough, I've never heard of/seen them, was just talking from personal experience with trolls.

[white basalt]

“Spam bot”

Interesting

Also, I think it would be only fair to literally double the size of the discord in order to have a channel that is devoted to talking about each and every other channel.

Just to ensure that we could have only the most topical and contributory discussions.

[inland sphinx]

in order to have a channel that is devoted to talking about each and every other channel. Already done.
#discord_server is the channel to talk about other channels

[native schooner]

lmao

@ the d.r.i. thing

[white basalt]

No, I mean for each and every individual channel in the discord, there is another channel devoted to talking about that one single channel

[wintry yoke]

It may seem that way but there was a lot of discussion of the topic IP itself instead of IP violations encountered. It cluttered up the channel and reports would be left to chat history. Hence, a channel to discuss the topic IP

[uneven portal]

😂

[lean plover]

It may seem that way but there was a lot of discussion of the topic IP itself instead of IP violations encountered. It cluttered up the channel and reports would be left to chat history. Hence, a channel to discuss the topic IP
dis

[white basalt]

I don’t think you get what I’m saying here Nightstalk3r. I’m advocating 100% for a completely divided system where all speech is controlled by an all powerful organization

Hopefully with no chance to cross over from other channels, in order to better isolate our discussions like natural human beings.

[old jay]

You're sounding very much like a troll. ⚠

[lean plover]

tbh, i have absolutely NO clue what this has to do with #other_ip_topics

[old jay]

It has none, which is why he is already in spam territory.

[white basalt]

We had started a conversation in the channel for IP stuff, and then my messages were deleted and I moved to the off topic version of the channel and so now I guess I need to go to the off topic off topic channel

[red beacon]

Hey does anyone know legit mods for civilian vehicles other than what CUP may contains?

[sweet patio]

RDS civillians, Project Opfor, 3CB Factions. they all contain civillian stuff, the last 2 contain a lot more as well. What is your usecase.

[red beacon]

Civ vehicles for immersion and rp elements in an milsim pmc rp campaign

[sweet patio]

rds would be your choice, quality is soso, but has a lot of civ vehicles.

cup is obviously prime choice due to a2 content

[red beacon]

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check them.

Aim would be for somewhat more modern vehicles tho

[sweet patio]

hmm, no real civ mod comes to mind, all of them kind off latch onto a2, which means early 90s/2000s

[red beacon]

guess so, the moddern ones are 99% stolen from what I've seen sofar

[sweet patio]

most modern civ vehicles are part of Life packs, which are to 99% a mixed bag legality, morality and quality wise

plus you get some nice people just ending your mission because you are running their mod on a "none authorized server"

and sk you to pay

[wintry yoke]

Can they even do that with pbo files. Don't think so (legally)

[inland sphinx]

selling? no

[fiery egret]

Isn't this technically possible if they create their PBO while not using any of the BI's tools? (not sure if mikero's tools have a non-commercial clause)

[inland sphinx]

Yes.

But they are models. meaning p3d's. Meaning.. no.

[vast stump]

Mikeros still use the Arma Binarize.exe

well p3ds technically can be made in Blender

but they cant be validated to work without OB

[lean plover]

for p3d blender export you'd need the arma toolbox and afaik it's for NC use only

[vast stump]

Hmm have to ask Alwarren about that. I dont think I've seen any no commercial clause anywhere on his site or in the toolbox readme

[lean plover]

tbh, i just assumed since i know his general stance on monetization and stuff

[inland sphinx]

If you see a binarized p3d tho, you can be sure it ran through arma3tools

[zealous ore]

how about a PSA podcast with a pretty controversial topic, but most importantly one that more often than not ignored or simply unknown by the average user Intellectual Property rights, End User Agreements, Licenses and Monetization
@teal haven, @deft pulsar and anyone else doing podcasts these days

@inland sphinx and @old jay ^

[teal haven]

I'm good with having that conversation.

I know dagger would be.

Lets set up a time to have you and a few other people on for it.

[deft pulsar]

Hell yeah man ! If those two gentlemen would have the time ?

[teal haven]

I'll reach out to those two as well as CUP and ACE and of course you PuFu. Definitely good to have that convo with multiple sources.

[deft pulsar]

@zealous ore I'm gonna be polite and leave it to @teal haven 😉 I am sure that they'll be more than happy to talk about it 😂

[teal haven]

@deft pulsar multiple sources means you guys as well.

It's not like we're competing with each other man. And it's an important topic with many views.

[deft pulsar]

Fair enough 😉

[old jay]

A noble idea, yes. Unfortunately, my time as of late is tied up in a lengthy research project. That and my preferred style would be akin to the programme “Drunk History”

[deft pulsar]

Had already suggested an interview with @inland sphinx but he has only small time 😐

[old jay]

An alternative might be a pre-prepared Google doc or similar?

[zealous ore]

ideally, from my POV now, it should be a group of people from AMA + at least one veteran moderator

[old jay]

I agree with PuFu

[teal haven]

As do I.

[old jay]

(Just maybe not Me)

[deft pulsar]

Sure

[zealous ore]

@deft pulsar + @teal haven
since both podcasts are hobby related, i think would be nice of you 2 to make an effort and make a common one on the subject

i doubt you guys consider yourself competitors

[deft pulsar]

I was gonna suggest it

[zealous ore]

just as much as we (RHS) considers CUP a "competitor"

but rather a partner

[stone bridge]

🔫

[zealous ore]

the only people who compare shit are users

[stone bridge]

WATCH IT

😛

[old jay]

In terms of IP, I am at one extreme in regards to IP, whereas a more neutral Moderator may be preferred.

[zealous ore]

@stone bridge don't ruin my good mood

and the new @inland sphinx in a moderation position is obviously more extreme than yourself

regarding IPs anyways

[deft pulsar]

@zealous ore @teal haven
I'll need to talk it over with the others since I'm not alone in Radio Arma.
But I'm sure it would work

[old jay]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I’ve at least got longevity on my side PuFu 😂

[zealous ore]

ok, i am just throwing it out there, please let me know if you consider that a valid discussion point

[old jay]

It’s definitely a welcome conversation, but I would advise against “general” statements and/or non-focused statements because there are a hell of a lot of exceptions out there.

[zealous ore]

there is no general statements i can make

[old jay]

lol

[zealous ore]

besides the ones i already did - it's a pretty unknown subject

for the average user

[deft pulsar]

The invite was relayed to the Radio Arma team. Will send you an update as soon as possible

[stone bridge]

@lean plover maybe something you'd be interested in?

[teal haven]

We're almost done with our next episode and have a few things lined up so we can't do it right away but it's an important subject and a pretty controversial topic. Dagger and I will need time to get things set up and prepared for it.

[old jay]

👍

[teal haven]

guest list scheduling things like that.

[old jay]

When you get around to an outline of it, let me know and I’ll give some input.

[teal haven]

104

[deft pulsar]

@teal haven I can be your main contact for Radio Arma.

[teal haven]

Sure any preference on how to contact you? We know how to reach out to Stef we're used to contact with him so let me know the best times and way to reach out to you.

[inland sphinx]

Yeah timing with me is complicated. Give me a time and I'll say yay or nay. Mid week is always bad. And weekend evening (CET) it also bad. And weekend noon is also bad because I catch up the sleep I missed mid-week.
a group of people from AMA + at least one veteran moderator how good that I am both now :D
Though I'm not really sure what I would talk about. But it's the podcasters responsibility to make things up to talk about 😄

[old jay]

Yeah. I’d like to see a list of questions first.

[zealous ore]

you pansies

[inland sphinx]

or pufu makes talk material up. He had the idea, he get's the work

[old jay]

Off the cuff answers are the worst. If someone wants the best possible answer, it’s best to take the time to answer correctly

[lean plover]

I'm up for it to represent CUP. Depending on the time (live or pre-recorded) ofc. Hit me up If you guys get something going

[lean plover]

and as mentioned, pre defined questions are best. at least for me since i'm not a native speaker and sometimes have troubles finding the right (none offensive) words in short time

😄

[dapper shuttle]

@upper agate

[upper agate]

ah, didn't realize this existed

[dapper shuttle]

yea it cant hurt to ask, i'm sure they would be happy to help if you ask kindly and have no obvious flaws

[upper agate]

too many channels here

yeah, i just wanted to check

cause I haven't needed to for previous events I have volunteered at

[dapper shuttle]

and as its for business you sort of need to

[upper agate]

since the publisher just says free to use for events

[inland sphinx]

Just message rob about it and ask. I'm quite confident the answer will be positive

[old jay]

Depending

[dapper shuttle]

yea, BI are nice about these things

as long as you are able to justify yourself

[upper agate]

Cool, I'll message rob

[old jay]

What you’ve described is a commercial For-Profit event. As described, I’d venture a no. However, if it were for a charitable cause with verifiable fund depositing, that would be another matter.

[upper agate]

We are structuring as a non-profit

[old jay]

When it’s “structured” , come back.

Depending on the country you are in most register charities for legal reasons

[upper agate]

alright, and just to clarify what I said in #ip_rights_violations, I meant us advertising the event. We don't plan to have any income from ads during our event

[old jay]

Very well, you may not want to use the phrase “ads like an esport event” then because that smacks of commercialism. Plenty of groups have been able to have charitable events, it just needs to be set up properly and verifiable

[upper agate]

Yeah, that's why I started correcting myself before we moved to this channel

when I read it back I could tell the meaning wasn't clear

[dapper shuttle]

yeah just be very careful how you word it and you should be fine. as i said, BI arnt heartless monsters (unless you look at their AI)

[old jay]

These restrictions are in place to prevent a group from exploiting the popularity of a game “in the name of charity” where in reality they’re pocketing money.

If everything is on the up and up, there shouldn’t be a problem.

[upper agate]

Yeah, totally understand that side of it. I've hosted similar events in the past, just never for Arma.

[old jay]

But, it should be run past Rob and the Monetisation/Legal team first

[dapper shuttle]

Good luck with it, would be nice to see such event.

[upper agate]

Thanks, it's going to be a fun challenge to find a nice way to display competitive Arma 3

[obsidian verge]

is there a statement from BI about EBO usage ? so i can post it in the uploaders face next time ?

and shouldnt it be possible to prevent ebo uploads from the tool ? press upload -> scan upload folder for *.ebo extension and block it

[inland sphinx]

yes. Dwarden said not okey somewhere.
Yes, same as telling uploaders that they are not allowed to reupload other peoples stuff. But BI also doesn't wanna do that for some reason

[old jay]

@obsidian verge EBO is propriety BI format. The only way to use it is through reverse engineering, and per the forum rules “Illegal Content or cheating/hacking:
Discussions about copy protection or copying, backing-up, hacking, cracking or reverse engineering of any of BI's products or the products of any other developer is not allowed. Any links pertaining to cheating/hacking our games or servers should be sent to ’Community Manager’ ”

Clear enough?

[obsidian verge]

Yep

[high wasp]

@upper agate @old jay my group did a charity 24hr stream and raised $2000+, but we collected money through Extra Life, so the money never actually touched our hands, but went straight into a registered non-profit (which you can then direct towards a specific charity. We did Golisano Childrens Hospital.)

Sounds like it may work for your situation to avoid collecting money yourself and keeping it all legal taxwise.

[dapper shuttle]

Screeee

[glacial copper]

I have a question about APL-SA

Well, a couple actually

So the Summary at the top of the APL-SA page says With this licence you are free to adapt (i.e. modify, rework or update) and share (i.e. copy, distribute or transmit) the material under the following conditions:

It also says THIS SUMMARY HAS NO LEGAL EFFECT

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, or my definition of modify is different from what's intended, but I can't find anything in the legal text referencing modification

Closest thing I can find is 2.1.b talking about reproducing

[vast stump]

Term may be derivates

[glacial copper]

Just check that too, doesn't appear in the full version

There is a bit about making technical modifications necessary to exercise the Licensed Rights

but that brings us back to produce, reproduce, and Share Adapted Material

although 3(a)(1)(a) talks about attribution including in modified form

Anyways, that's question 1

And question 2 I just figured out on my own

[old jay]

What is the context in which you are asking the question? It sounds like there is something that you want to do that you are unsure of.

[glacial copper]

There's really 2 scenarios

1. Unpacking, editing and repacking an addon

2. Creating a config patch for an addon that is distributed as a second mod

Not to be published anywhere specifically either, mostly just for in-community stuff

[obsidian cypress]

2. If you release a standalone mod for that, I don't think it counts as "modified" as long as you dont use files of the said mod (.paa, .p3d) and, for example, only overwrite configs. But that's just my understanding of the licence.

[wintry yoke]

IIRC most if not all licenses allow the 2nd option. The first option is a big no if you re-publish it.

[obsidian cypress]

And for 1. it doesn't seems like there is a definition with what counts as a modification and what doesn't so the smallest change is I guess (see 1.a, there somewhat of a definition).

@wintry yoke but he asks about the Share Alike one so if I read correctly, he can redistribute the material but not on all platforms.

[inland sphinx]

@glacial copper
2.a.1.b
produce adapted material. That is modification/derivative

@obsidian cypress but not on all platforms The license doesn't limit platforms. It allows you to share everywhere you want.
A certain platform might forbid you to upload things in their License/EULA though. Like steam does.

[obsidian cypress]

@inland sphinx That's what I was trying to say, non native speaker here, sorry 😅

[glacial copper]

Ah, that makes a lot more sense now, thanks dedmen

[warm dew]

Yeah the vr suit cargo space can be a bit gamebreaking (Life wise). I guess it is somewhat balanced by the fact that it glows in the dark

but servers should just blacklist it, like I understand that you can offer stuff to donors but like there's a limit

[gleaming cedar]

Hypothetically if our community was to have a donator reward where you can donate a certain amount and receive a retextured helmet with your name/patch on it, how does that fit in legally? I’m just the art guy, I would be the one doing the textures but the admin guys had mentioned this idea to help boost donations.
Donate money, receive an option to wear a personalised version of the exact same helmet all the other guys get. Feels a bit off to me, wondering how it sits with you guys. If you guys give it the okay, I won’t say anything. If you reckon it’s a bit funny too I’ll advise them against it.

[lean plover]

It's no donation anymore as soon as a reward is given. This falls under monetization and therefor BI approval

@gleaming cedar

[gleaming cedar]

Righto I figured it was using the word “donation” a bit loosely

[obsidian verge]

Post: https://discordapp.com/channels/105462288051380224/105792634995388416/555862391607263287

Even the Armaholic upload contains EBO`s
http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=32603

[lean plover]

1. no monetization with RHS
2. content that gives the buyer an advantage is not allowed to be monetized.

[high wasp]

@sterile hatch you should post the violators in #ip_rights_violations .... though russian game servers are usually pretty untouchable through legal means

[sterile hatch]

@high wasp what do I have to post? their forum, their server (battlemetrics) or steam profil of the person who works on these domination modifications by introducing premium for content already present in amra/rhs?

[high wasp]

All of the above - you don't have to post anything since you didn't do anything wrong (assuming you're just a regular player) but it would help out the RHS guys and BI guys if you did.

website, name, and evidence is a good start.

[inland sphinx]

And another life server that just started off today already getting moderated away on BIF for reuploads to the workshop.
And none of their leads are on the Arma discord ofc :U

And ofc the uploader of their modpack also has half a dozen more illegal reupload modpacks

[wintry yoke]

it's like the default for Life servers by now

You gotta be completely ignorant to any rules to become a Life server owner

[inland sphinx]

@somber anchor Not all Arma objects can be ported. just SOME objects have been released publicly under a license. And that license says "Arma only" Thus no DayZ Standalone allowed.

[somber anchor]

oooh, understood, what a shame tbh

[inland sphinx]

If you need to port things to DayZ. you can always message BI and ask for special permission

I wouldn't know who to contact for that though

[somber anchor]

i know a couple of people from there, i might ask

[faint plover]

Ohhh i didnt even notice this channel existed lol

[wintry yoke]

It doesn't, this is all in your imagination 😄

[high wasp]

new-ish

cause we begged for awhile

[faint plover]

Yikessss im prob hallusinating lmao

[high wasp]

the lord dwarden giveth, but the lord dwarden taketh his time 😆

[wintry yoke]

Well, we didn't beg, we kinda spammed off-topic stuff in #ip_rights_violations for a while

[high wasp]

I mean, I begged, I dunno about you

[wintry yoke]

I no beg

I spam 😛

[faint plover]

Working all day today with some nasty nasty smelling stuff 😦

[inland sphinx]

Plus this makes it easier to ban the troll army that spams #ip_rights_violations because we can now just tell them 3 times to move here and ban them

[faint plover]

I havent even noticed much trolls tbh and ive been in this discord for like almost 2 weeks now

[inland sphinx]

Yeah 2 weeks

troll army happens every like 3-4 months

Once we DMCA/ban some social influencer

[wintry yoke]

whenever Arma 3 goes on sale

[high wasp]

don't worry

a youtuber will eventually complain about getting banned for breaking the rules 😆

[wintry yoke]

or you get Witten

[high wasp]

or a unit will get their steam workshop reupload taken down

I mean

that dude's not an influencer

[faint plover]

Yeah hope i dnt see em becuase ive had enough drama to last me a lifetime with pl , so drama last thing i needa see lmao

[high wasp]

he just has alotta accounts

[wintry yoke]

haven't seen him recently

so maybe Discord found a better ID to ban him on

[high wasp]

or maybe

just maybe

[faint plover]

I hate youtubers tbh .. like their content but they all feel like they above everyone and that everything is owed to them simply because of how quickly arma is dieing

[high wasp]

he's moved on with his life

[wintry yoke]

keep dreaming Hawkins xD

[high wasp]

@faint plover that's a pretty broad characterization

[wintry yoke]

I doubt ArmA 3 is doing with the thousands of units

dying*

[faint plover]

Yeah .... i mean ive been around arma for faaaaaar too long ... seeing and being part of the things ive been , hard to stay positive sometimes 😕

[high wasp]

Arma isn't dying. It's gotten smaller, but that's how shit goes when a game is 5+ years old

[faint plover]

True

[high wasp]

3rd-party DLC may bring a bit of a resurgence, we'll see.

[wintry yoke]

It's not dying at all. Lifers are moving away because the servers they play on stole content from creators and get taken down

There's no game out there that comes close to what ArmA 3 has to offer

[faint plover]

But the life community is RIP after fiveM and i know the rep these communities have and all but at the end of the day im a hardcore roleplayer and honestly theres like maybe 3-4 communities out there that are populated all the others = dead

[inland sphinx]

not having a problem with life going RIP ^^

[faint plover]

@wintry yoke exactly thats why i cant move on from arma

[inland sphinx]

Less work for me dealing with their crap

[wintry yoke]

Admit it, you like the ban hammer

[faint plover]

Well i mean we wouldnt have these problems if arma was mod friendly. Content creators , most of them leave and move on to fiveM, UE4.etc because arma honestly hates hates mods lmao

[wintry yoke]

ArmA 3 is pretty mod-friendly. It's just not thief-friendly.

[faint plover]

I remember when tanks dlc came out and i was still in a3pl staff ... if players drove past a particular gas station = server crash .... nd good luck getting the director to restart it ... was such a pain ...

[wintry yoke]

Modded map then I suppose?

[faint plover]

Fishers island

[wintry yoke]

Can't expect a mod to be updated to second an update comes out

No game has mods that update like that

[high wasp]

There's an inherent problem with the roleplayer community @faint plover - there have been instances of copyright theft, illegal monetization, harassment, trolling. These are largely consolidated to the lifer community. And some of it has real world consequences

[wintry yoke]

Error needs to be reported, found and fixed

[high wasp]

I've always maintained that life servers, in theory, are cool. But the people that operate them often feel a disregard for the rules.

[faint plover]

Thats why out of the 6 communities ive owned .. 5 of them were vanilla altis life ... couldnt be fucked with to deal with content issues

[wintry yoke]

What other game has complete map mods that get updated the second the game releases an update

[high wasp]

A3PL is the only one I've really ever played more than an hour on, and the owner ended up sexually assaulting one of the underage moderators, so I left o.O

as did a huge chunk of the original beta community

Milsim is the only place I've found to be a communal area with minimal (but some) drama

[faint plover]

What i dont understand is why steal it tho? Why not just ask? 9/10 if u simply ask the owner of the content , theyll respect that and allow u to use their stuff

[wintry yoke]

in my experience you find drama everywhere

[high wasp]

Also, playing behind an application wall means that the people you end up playing with are at least somewhat reasonable people

[wintry yoke]

Life, Milsim and everything in-between

[high wasp]

You do, but at different rates.

[wintry yoke]

Not that much difference imo

[high wasp]

In milsim, the only drama that ever comes up is people being powerhungry.

There's a lot more drama in life servers for a lot more reasons

[faint plover]

Yeah youll find drama everywhere but life communities is a whole other level... kinda ashamed to say it but it was the main catalyst in causing me enough stress to have a heart attack ... like legit with life communities it sometimes goes on a whole next level

[wintry yoke]

Can we declare it a health hazard and get it banned then? 😛

[faint plover]

Welp ... i did one better and hired an attorney 😛

Not much can be done about those types of things tho because very hard to prove that virtual reality caused an actual health problem

[high wasp]

I was quite hopeful that A3PL would do life the right way, since they had started with the promise to do entirely-inhouse content, and all that, but it ended up falling way short of that.

[faint plover]

A3PL is next level ... being there for as long as i have , seeing the shit ive seen and being trusted with things that is a big no no in the arma community as a whole , other life servers are angels compared to them

[high wasp]

That's why you gotta do milsim 😃

[faint plover]

I have ive joined one good unit but theres like 60gb of mods they want me to install and its a pain. Nd idk where else to look besides the steam forums. Im generally a pilot and i prefer to fly over everything else ... but hard to find a good unit with decent balance of structure and “having fun”

And thats also active ... alot of units just do ops like once or twice a week nd have policies that prevent members from being apart of other units .. nd i dnt have a life ... so ... 1-2 ops per week isnt enough for me lol

[high wasp]

Well, I mean, if you just wanna do rotary, DM me ;)

But otherwise, you can look in #communities_arma3 for a running list of all the units recruiting

Most units do one or two big ops a week, but their servers are up 24/7 for you to do your own operations as you see fit.