ip_rights_violations

[elfin heron]

I've never had to touch mine and it works fine

[carmine folio]

Point made. Individuals can deal with the consequences, as long as bohemia doesn't have to deal with it? I don't want to cause a big stink or debate law, I just want to know if its possible that a private group of friends can just enjoy a mod then be on their way without making it everyone else's problem.

[elfin heron]

Granted supports and stuff but either way this is off topic now

[pliant oar]

#offtopic_arma

[muted grove]

Btw I don't yet know what that document permits, I haven't finished read it, so don't take this as me trying to defend aftermath or any of the other mods, I don't know anything about their legality, I'm merely trying to educate my self about that document and how it relates to microsoft owned IP.

[vestal hazel]

Still though, according to the GCUR by MS it is still has this rule

You can't reverse engineer our games to access the assets or otherwise do things that the games don't normally permit in order to create your Items.

[soft egret]

Yes (relating to bohemia).
if its really private. Doing it might still be illegal, but not something for Bohemia to deal with.

In the past there were lots of issues with "private" mods containing stolen content, being publicly redistributed.
And these redistribution places would then be taken down.

[chilly silo]

I've run 20 machines for small manufacture for a while during covid. We had huge problems with temp, materials, wear, stupid software and a hundred other things. it does not compare to injection moulding or similar - either way we are no way offtopic

[vestal hazel]

and if you read the actual EULA of the Service Agreement by Obsidian Entertainment its even more explicit not to decompile, rip, reverse engineer, etc

[chilly silo]

Legally not true. 😉
The "Really private part"

[elfin heron]

i think we can all agree disney is stupid either way but ripping stuff is silly

[ivory moat]

So why is BI removing a million and a half good mods

[merry kestrel]

[heavy nacelle]

See latest pinned message by Dwarden

[echo orchid]

i don't agree, sorry

[carmine folio]

Understood. Won't go any deeper into this topic and be on my way. And hey, I'm not supporting ripping here. Appreciate y'all. Now I'm gonna go get drunk with the boys and give 'em the news that we can still have fun with weird overhauls on the weekends if we keep it quiet. Cheers

[crimson ingot]

say if someone post a video about them playing with ripped assets, what would happen?

[elfin heron]

ok kathleen kennedy is stupid then

[soft egret]

Well as soon as they know where to strike, they can strike.
If they find you doing it, you'll still get dunked because its still illegal doing it in itself yeah.
More a answer towards the Individuals can deal with the consequences, as long as bohemia doesn't have to deal with it?
If you do it "privately" inside the group, then its your law violation to deal with and none of bohemias business, right?

[stiff jasper]

Disney is family friendly, if something doesn't go through their hands it automatically breaks the family friendly rule, hence the mass witchhunt over fanmade animations and videos on youtube

[chilly silo]

Predates Mrs Kennedy by a long way. Mr Lucas set the Star Wars policy in the 1970's

[elfin heron]

disney is family friendly as they show a stormtrooper being cut in half and a child on their way to being tortured 🙃

[somber topaz]

the country of vietnam gonna sue for use of Unsung

[elfin heron]

im more on about recent star wars content

[soft egret]

Not really (again for reference talking about bohemia here), bohemia won't take down your youtube video because it shows illegal content (with some exceptions).
They will take it down though if its posted on a bohemia platform (forums, discord, etc)

[stiff jasper]

quoting Todd Howard, "it just works"

[chilly silo]

"If you do it "privately" inside the group, then its your law violation to deal with and none of bohemias business, right? "
Correct

[elfin heron]

daddy why is that man in two pieces

[somber topaz]

just put the mod on nexus instead of the workshop

[crimson ingot]

Educational purpose i believe haha

[elfin heron]

nexus still has to comply with copyright law

[somber topaz]

nexus is a lot more lenient tho

[chilly silo]

Well its just Disney protecting their business. They are using the limit of the law to protect their $4bn investment.

[elfin heron]

ok the law isnt

[crimson ingot]

Nexus also deletes mods that violates their rule

[elfin heron]

no as in the content disney are producing

[echo orchid]

lol why? nexus needs to respect the same rules as everyone else

[soft egret]

I edited my old post to make it a bit clearer.. People like to take things out of context I should know better 😄

[somber topaz]

you really think bethesda is gonna take legal action attacking the modding community

[echo orchid]

lenient?

[somber topaz]

that’s their whole playerbase

[elfin heron]

they could if they wanted to

[chilly silo]

They have in the past

[elfin heron]

"playerbase" bro theyre not even playing their game??

[somber topaz]

but they are smart enough not to

[crimson ingot]

they already did when they made paid skyrim mods

[somber topaz]

that’s completely different

when it comes to making money

they want their cut

nah the modding community in general carries the fallout series

same with the elder scrolls

[soft egret]

True, but not the Arma modding community. Especially not when ripping content out of bethesdas (commercial) games, and giving it away for free, inside a different game that not bethesda gets the money for.
If people stop buying fallout because "we have fallout for free at home", it indeed comes to making money as you said.

[elfin heron]

but bro they bought the game bro

[heavy nacelle]

We are not talking about the fallout or Bethesda games modding communities. This is strictly about people reverse engineering and unbinarizing assets from other games and brining them into A3.

[echo orchid]

even more, playing fallout in a different game, using ripped assets (even if not ripped, maybe just copied) creates a competitor, and there will be even less money from their own game

[somber topaz]

We’re the assets directly ripped from the game files?

[echo orchid]

yes

[somber topaz]

oh yeah damn that’s a no no

tale of two wastelands almost got in trouble for that

if they didn’t require ownership of fallout 3

[elfin shuttle]

Is there site where all mods that do ip rights violations are. I would like to see all those vile mods.

[echo orchid]

?

[somber topaz]

modb

[crimson ingot]

sus, also none

[elfin shuttle]

Like universal site with downloads

[echo orchid]

there is no place on the internet that doesn't need to comply with the laws

[crimson ingot]

[echo orchid]

seems like you are trolling...

[somber topaz]

but there are places that can go under the radar

[crimson ingot]

and we dont talk about piracy in this server

[somber topaz]

never said to do it

just that it happens

[elfin heron]

i do because i am based and redpilled

[somber topaz]

based

who buys movies in 2022

[crimson ingot]

Movie cinema, so that they can show it in their theater

[elfin heron]

people who havent heard of google searching pirating websites

[carmine folio]

Final question. Will Arma 4 Allow people to manually load local mods? I presume so for modmakers, but just making sure of that in the future?

[soft egret]

Please try not to turn this channel about ip rights, into a discussion on pirating movies

[somber topaz]

hahaha

[crimson ingot]

they'll find Pirates of the Carribean official website

[echo orchid]

overstatement. first and last verbal warning

[elfin heron]

ouch.

didnt have to do me like that 😭

[crimson ingot]

you said u are based, so deal with it

[soft egret]

No official statement about that has been made, and won't be made now either

[elfin heron]

i have stolen it

[elfin heron]

based in reality 😎

[heavy moon]

All companies have a vested commercial interest in protecting their intellectual property, copyrights and trademarks, it's how they manage to do business - through the marketing of those protected properties in the form of film, TV, board games, videos games, merchandise, etc.

If any of you were to create your own successful game or franchise and subsequently found out that an individual or group were stealing your intellectual property, abusing your trademarks, abusing your copyrights and also making it available to other people just so that individual can "have fun with the boys" - I can guarantee you would send a team of lawyers after them to protect not only your intellectual property, trademarks, copyrights but also your entire business and the staff that you employ.

TLDR; Those of you who abuse other peoples IP, reverse-engineer and steal software are damaging the thing you propose to love the most, gaming.

[echo orchid]

i really hope not

[somber topaz]

They can’t stop manually loading mods

[elfin heron]

(they can)

[echo orchid]

please stay on topic

[rustic copper]

#rules 3, 4, 6 and 8 people...
I suggest following them before the orange people get angry (or worse, the green ones)

[crimson ingot]

probably something like ingame Reforger Workshop, i doubt there will be local mods to use.
does reforger even have local mods system?

[somber topaz]

we gotta stay on topic guys!!!

[heavy moon]

!issuewarning 979454371999940639 Trolling after being warned about going off-topic

[crimson ingot]

*purple

[edgy coral]

Done.

[carmine folio]

Fair enough. Probably could've put that in another topic. my mistake.

[somber topaz]

why was i warned

i was the one telling them to stay on topic

[heavy moon]

I think that is fairly obvious.

[somber topaz]

read the messages i sent

where was i off topic after you said stop

[crimson ingot]

dont challenge the mod

[heavy moon]

You were warned for trolling, which you were very obviously doing.

[somber topaz]

i literally told him to stay on topic because he’d get warmed

warmest

warned*

and i got warned

that’s like arresting batman for fighting crime

[heavy moon]

!mute 979454371999940639 7d Continued arguing with moderator after being warned to cease the off-topic and trolling.

[crimson ingot]

bad example, Batman is a Vigilante and there is law againts it

oh right he got muted

[muted grove]

Aight so I just read through https://www.xbox.com/en-us/developers/rules and from my understanding, because Microsoft explicitly purchased both the company and the underlying IP's (as I linked prior) this agreement now applies to all zenimax games until such a time as they are explicitly excluded from this document. (Example: like Minecraft) This now means as far as I can comprehend, that you can make your own assets (not ripping) so long as you also follow the rest of those rules, and be perfectly fine?

(Obviously "This is important to keep in mind for some games (like Forza Motorsport or Xbox Fitness, for example) where use of individual vehicles, tracks, exercise videos, or other brands and logos in these games may require permission from their manufacturer or owner." still applies)

[crimson ingot]

exactly 'Permission' is still needed

[muted grove]

No? This document explicitly gives you permission to make your own content so long as it follows those rules.

[crimson ingot]

better safe than sorry

[muted grove]

That last part is clearly about third party properties like BMW, Nuremburg, songs etc.

[oblique crater]

according to reddit the M:TLS guy had perms from 4A and still got taken down though so seems like it doesn't matter lol

[muted grove]

Things the developers don't have a copyright/IP to.

[stiff jasper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYzGaazhwuk I'm getting the bluedrake's "real ARMA KILLER" vibe from this dumb defence of ripped mods "because people play it"

[crimson ingot]

do they showed the Permission?

[muted grove]

LOL

I'm in a youtube video

[rustic copper]

it gives permission to make

... things like machinima, videos, and other cool things ...

[crimson ingot]

oh look you make a cameo

[oblique crater]

i think they did in the description of the mod yeah. but i think the guy will counter claim

[rustic copper]

EULA still applies, and those say you're not allowed to recreate anything from their games (like models)

[muted grove]

Can you point me to where?

[rustic copper]

if you bought the game you would have it

[muted grove]

But the parent company, that owns the IP has given a broader permission, those lesser EULA's should not be able to limit that?

[soft egret]

Don't miss lies like this, such stuff always comes in tandem with such topics for some reason. Sad.

[wise hound]

Lol

Was my role taken away for reacting to a post?

[rustic copper]

They don't overrule the EULA or specific license of the games, not to mention that Trademarks are in place... which prevent you from making anything which looks like or may be mistaken for it

[soft egret]

no, don't even know what role you mean?

[muted grove]

Again, "for which Microsoft owns the copyright, trademark or other intellectual property."

They mention trademark

[wise hound]

I cannot react to messages anymore, weird

[rustic copper]

And again, it doesn't give explicit permission for recreating their content; they give permission to use their content as provided (so in the game)

[soft egret]

you cannot react to peoples message who have blocked you. Thats not related to any rights here (though in some channels reactions might be blocked for everyone)

[onyx iron]

Please leave reverse-engineering out of this, what I do in my free time, be it reverse engineering cars or software is my personal business. That line of thinking (we're banning reverse engineering!) is one of the reason right to repair legislation is being needed and being enacted.
If you meant reverse-engineer and then illegally use for non private purposes ignore this 🙂

[echo orchid]

what does this have to do with this thread / channel / topic?

[crimson ingot]

banning them? pretty sure only their mod that violates the rule not the creator.

[soft egret]

What you do personally in your free time is your own business yes.

We are talking about published/redistributed mods containing stolen/reverse-engineered content though.

[crimson ingot]

because of their mods that violates the rule
or repeatable offences

[stiff jasper]

repeatedly breaking the rules of the Workshop and the Arma itself has nothing to do with keeping the game alive, somehow the authors of RHS and CUP are still here.

[echo orchid]

again, what does this have to do with the topic at hand? Workshop ban is a repercussion of the repeating IP infringements

[muted grove]

No, they explicitly mention making items such as apps, websites, items etc

[heavy nacelle]

Why are you talking like this is some sort of choice made by Bohemia? Its a LAW, they don't really have much choice.... If these people are so passionate about modding and keeping the game alive, why can't they put in the time required to make their own assets?

[soft egret]

Larisa. If Microsofts rules would apply and allow it, why does bethesda have their own rules that forbid it.
I'd say in this case the more specific rules probably apply.
Microsoft says "generally ok for our stuff"
Bethesda says "not ok for our stuff"

Currently its just not clear, go and ask them maybe, maybe they just didn't have time to update it yet

[merry kestrel]

I feel like I have aged 20 years watching this section the past 2-3 hours

[muted grove]

Because the bethesda ones were released before the merger?

[stiff jasper]

yes this is an interstellar channel, every hour here is 7 years on earth how we can help

[soft egret]

No matter if before or after.
If bethesda now releases a new game, and says "not allowed" then its not allowed, even if Microsoft says otherwise
Microsoft owns bethesda and can decide what bethesda should do, but that doesn't mean that decisions they made for their own past releases automatically applies to bethesda. They may do it, but as far as I can see they didn't yet clarify.

[muted grove]

And actually, that's actually not a bad idea. I'mma try to get in touch with them.

[elfin heron]

dog years

[crimson ingot]

Twitter may be faster

[fathom bone]

Microsoft can be pretty quick, at least relatively on responding

[stiff jasper]

Twitter is not handled by the legal team so their response migh differ from their actual view on this stuff

[muted grove]

I don't have a twitter account

[heavy moon]

Probably best contacting their legal department, I somehow doubt their twitter accounts are under the remit of their legal teams.

[crimson ingot]

good old email then, but where to ask? at support.microsoft?

ah i see

Tweet at @Todd_Howard?

[muted grove]

Tweeting at Todd Howard only elicits one response

That is: It just works

[molten kraken]

why not give them a call? [phone]

[soft egret]

Social media people should be wary enough to make sure that the reply they post is actually correct.

which btw is also a big danger of in general allowing stolen content to stay and continue to be used.
Social media people love to share and promote cool mods they see, but lately its become extremely hard, because if you don't put real effort into checking, you can sometimes end up promoting illegal content in official name of the company you work for

[molten kraken]

It's in their terms of service

[crimson ingot]

'BI being scared of daddy Disney'
Of course they are, it's Disney

[merry kestrel]

[stiff jasper]

their authors can appeal against the ban if it was unjustified

either to Steam or in a court, it's not that hard if you are owner of the stuff you bring up

unless you actually don't have any permission and all you can say for your defense is "I put a lot of effort into it"

then you loose both the claim and money for handling the trial

[muted grove]

Also I love how I became the face of this supposed "cesspool of IP reporters" when all I did was rectify that one guys issue of aftermath not being looked at while their mod was.

[stiff jasper]

I gotta message bluedrake that you are the actual arma killer

[muted grove]

Actually I just might

[soft egret]

People will find a target and take it.
No matter if its taking it out of context

[stiff jasper]

I have already seen takes that this is Dwarden's personal vendetta

[soft egret]

And often they'll construct something around it to justify whatever they want to say

[muted grove]

Done

[vestal hazel]

The assets from aftermath are from fallout. I dont think asking for permission to authorize a ripped mod will do much help since their eula on obsidian entertainment linking Microsoft Service agreement says not to decomile, dissaemble, or reverse engineer their assets/content

[stiff jasper]

the existence of a rule always means that there can be exceptions

but people just don't care or don't know that they should ask before trying to be an exception

[muted grove]

Like, don't get me wrong. I'm not an expert at IP at all, I'm just trying to learn enough to feel confident enough about even just starting on a mod, mostly out of just sheer fear that all my work will at best be thrown out the window and worst land me in a lawsuit. Hence why I troll (literal fishing definition) this channel for information so I can better educate my self.

But holy crap is there a lot of uncertainty in this field.

[vestal hazel]

https://www.obsidian.net/games/fallout-new-vegas link to their terms of use at the bottom of the page

Section 8A pretty much says dont decompile, reverse engineer

[rustic copper]

But why troll to get information, instead of asking and accepting an answer? 🤷‍♂️

[stiff jasper]

because people come here after developing a besieged fortress syndrome

[muted grove]

I said the actual literal definition.

"carefully and systematically search an area for something."

[muted grove]

Thanks, also that just takes me to Microsofts Service Agreement.

[vestal hazel]

that's cause that is their terms of use, the MSA

[royal grove]

Rip Aftermath

[crimson ingot]

no memeing here

[stiff jasper]

rip bozo

[royal grove]

K

[carmine folio]

It is a highly controversial subject as multiple communities are built around these types of overhaul mods - and thus emotions will run high. ARMA is a great milsim game that allows for a type of gameplay not that many people can have. And the idea of being able to have that gameplay with some of their favourite IP's as a form of milsim roleplay really does bring a wider audience. People will do what they can and make changes to support the rules, but its a shakeup many weren't expecting. Either way, I'm sure that efforts will be made to ensure that Bohemia won't be held responsible for any ip issues when given the chance.

[gleaming dew]

Aight

[stiff jasper]

There would be no controversies if user creating a mod about X asked the creator of original X whether he can do that or not

[soft egret]

its always a controversial subject when something that has a social following gets taken down.
Several times after some life server gets taken down for violating the EULA, we'd get a wave of new users joining the discord, posting insults, spamming, trolling, getting banned.

After years of experience with this kinda stuff, its just normal to get the spammers and trolls.

[faint nacelle]

This does not come as surprise to the makers of those mods, no matter what they say, they have been around long enough to have heard IP rights are a thing and they do the ripping knowing the risk

it is a shame that the talent and work goes to waste, but it could have been used to make legit mods and there would be no problem

[muted grove]

So, that just furthers the idea that at the very least, FONV is now under the MSA and as such the game content usage rules. Just gotta figure out how to contact their legal department to figure out if by

"like machinima, videos, and other cool things (your "Item(s)")."

more so the "other cool things" also means creating your own game assets based on Microsoft property or not.

[carmine folio]

At this point, if there are ripped assets - its understandable if taken down as long as they are told to remake it on their own and continue on. It's a hassle and sucks, but at least there's a remedy

[crimson ingot]

better ask them that

[vestal hazel]

lol no because their Section 8b literally says don't decompile, disassemble, or reverse engineer their assets and content

that outright prohibits ripping

[stiff jasper]

M$ legal team correspondence is handled through WE Communications company, you can try [e-mail]

[muted grove]

Ngl I'm all for content ripping privately, for one self, to learn how things work, to then make your own things, the problem as you've stated before is when people share those ripped 'creations'.

[stiff jasper]

or message their DMCA dept [e-mail] and later say that you actually have the wrong address, they probably watch this one 24/7

[muted grove]

That's how we all learn, from those that came before us, just gotta make sure we don't plagiarize and steal content.

[vestal hazel]

ripping content doesn't teach you anything but how to rip content. If you want to learn go learn how to model.

then learn how to mod in arma 3

[wise hound]

reverse engineering doesn't teach you anything

[muted grove]

My dude, of course it does, it teaches you how to set up assets. No it doesn't teach you how to make assets, true.

[vestal hazel]

then you wont need to rip

[wise hound]

The absolute state

[vestal hazel]

you dont need ripped assets for that, you have the A3 samples for that

[carmine folio]

Was about to say. Is it wrong if a mod team rips a model from another game - however only uses it as a visual reference to form and model their own creation in arma 3 with their own assets - then discard the ripped material? Again I'm not well versed, but this is very interesting to hear about

[wise hound]

Its not wrong, anyone who says it is, is a moron, or just being a dick

[carmine folio]

Oh okay, I say this because 2d references might be limiting in trying to visualise it in a 3d environment model like arma 3

[stiff jasper]

ah yes name calling because you have no arguments 🤓

[wise hound]

Not wrong to reverse engineer something and study it

[soft egret]

Seeing how others have done something, like how they configured the bones for their car's wheels, can teach you how to make assets, or atleast parts of your final asset

[wise hound]

Shrimple as that

[muted grove]

This is sorta off topic but that's just flat out wrong, the entirety of aviation is downright reverse engineering of birds. Reverse engineering is a rather valid way of learning. And in many areas entirely legal and even explicitly protected.

[muted grove]

Exactly

[heavy moon]

Bohemia provide sample packages for Arma 3 and Arma Reforger for educational purposes so people know how to structure their mods and the respective content included.

There is literally no excuse to steal/reverse-engineer/rip anyone else content, no less for the purposes of inserting into Bohemia games under the guise of "learning how to import to Arma" when all of that is available in the samples provided.

[vestal hazel]

^

[wise hound]

Thats why I quoted in that sense, because it was wrong

[muted grove]

As I said, I'm not advocating for sharing those things, but to learn from them. And honestly those samples can be rather lacking sometimes.

[crimson ingot]

People like Arma because it's Arma not because you can play other games in Arma

[stiff jasper]

no one cares about communities who use ripped mods and now they can't stand reverting to legal content. They are the minority.

and that video is straight up bullshit lol

[crimson ingot]

should invite him to discuss it here in #ip_rights_violations

[muted grove]

Figuring out how people do things, how they construct whatever it is you're looking at, it is all part of learning.

[stiff jasper]

people posting statements like that Rybolt dude are already behind the walls of their "fortress" and won't take any logical points of view into account

[crimson ingot]

tru dat

[heavy moon]

If things are lacking you can put in a feature request via the feedback tracker for more samples, or samples of how to do X/Y/Z.
For Arma 3 there is also this forum thread in the Tools subsection to request additions to the Arma 3 Tools/Samples packages: https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/169359-tools-development-branch-discussion/

[carmine folio]

Let's say if those communities replaced the ripped content with handcrafted content that it would be fine?

wow i love arma

[crimson ingot]

BI is a Czech company

[heavy moon]

WIPO is international.

[merry kestrel]

[elfin heron]

play that game then 🙃

dont need to play arma to play a game with your favourite game assets in

[merry kestrel]

third usage of this facepalm emoji in one day, new record for me

[stiff jasper]

It doesn't really matter if assets are taken from another game or OC if they violate the intellectual property or EULA of the "source" (either idea or asset). If you have a permission from Disney to make your own stormtrooper model and make a mod out of it, you're good to go. If you have a permission from Zenimax to take their Mojave terrain and port it to Arma, you're good to go.

[crimson ingot]

check pinned messages maybe

[carmine folio]

Id say thats more of a Dont Ask Dont Tell kinda thing, To me its not a problem as long as you make it better, just dont say you ripped anything form somewhere

[stiff jasper]

I'm not saint but I have already had a trial for copyright infringement and I know how it ends. No one cares if you want to play with your favourite game assets or not.

Rules are rules and you either obey them or stay away

[plain rivet]

This is just a guy angy that he can’t play with a ripped mod anymore. He’s apart of an aftermath unit

Or “was”

[soft egret]

I watched his video and what he wrote I found reasonable

[stiff jasper]

you would be mad if I joined your milsim unit and started teamkilling everybody because rules are for jannies.

[crimson ingot]

and Rules are Rules

[stiff jasper]

who's Ukrainian

[soft egret]

!purgeban 284127193649381378 90d derogatory terms for moderators, abusive langauge, targeted profanity. ip rights troll wave

[muted grove]

Sad thing is the DMCA was created to further creative works and the sciences, these days it does more to inhibit that than anything else.

[stiff jasper]

I'm a pole lol

[edgy coral]

*PewPewPew!!*
RIP @azure fog

[soft egret]

Hey he joined the discord 15 minutes ago....

[crimson ingot]

what a waste, joining only to get banned

[soft egret]

cough cough called it

[crimson ingot]

looks like gonna be a busy day

[plain rivet]

I suspect there’ll be many many more coming at some point

[crimson ingot]

well Bot will auto ban when mass people (or bots) joining discord right?

[soft egret]

Sure always. This will keep up for a couple days I suspect.
The bots will ban spam waves, but that won't happen here, they don't join in waves of hundreds of users, its all individual people who see some social media post and decide to come here to live their dream of randomly attacking people.

Just don't interact with obvious trolls, and the moderators will take care of the rest. Don't let valid discussions be interrupted by such stuff

[stiff jasper]

@carmine folio honestly it would be much easier to give you proper answer if you told us what mod exactly do you have in mind or what do you want to depict in Arma

[plain rivet]

May want to keep those barrels primed and warmed

[stiff jasper]

there are no bans for asking here unless you ask Lou what was he doing during the French Revolution in 1789

[heavy moon]

The DMCA is a useful tool for fighting against IP theft, the EU equivalent is in effect an immediate Cease and Desist until it is all sorted out in court.
The DMCA is a you said/they said until you escalate it through lawyers, the EU equivalent requires lawyers form the start, but IMO its C+D likeness until things are legally fixed is the better implementation in process.

[stiff jasper]

what who wrote?

[soft egret]

said* sorry need bed

[muted grove]

Sure it is, it's also being used for purposes it was never meant to serve, and it's being used to extremes on platforms like youtube where smaller creators stand no chance against bigger corporations.

[carmine folio]

Understandable. Bare in mind I'm coming at this from an angle of re-creating something outside to fit in ARMA. I'm coming at this from personal curiosity and trying to be reasonable as I'm not well-versed and wish to understand. Would this be okay?:

Hypothetical
For example, me and my friends love ARMA. A military sandbox that we regularly play and enjoy. Let's say that we've all been playing - Mass Effect singplayer and thought - hey wouldn't it be cool if we could do military sandbox but in Mass Effect and zues our own campaign? And so, (again this is hypothetical, I don't have mod making experience) - we recreate the models we see in Mass Effect meticulously in arma through personal modelling projects. Modelling all the assets our-self to recreate the weapons, vehicles and armour all so that we could play. No ripped assets. Let's say that because of IP, it's not published on workshop to protect Bohemia, but then decide to make it open source for people to use by advertising the mod on youtube, letting other people download it on some external drive and then just have fun.

Would this be reasonable?

[muted grove]

I wish we could all just come together and retool the digital age rights laws to actually further creativity and science, no one should be punished for making fan art, that should be just as valid as creating something else, which that too will be derivative of something else at some point. We all draw ideas from the world we inhabit, be it nature, books, movies, every day conversations, to say that one persons idea is less worthy of protection than another just because it is more inspired by that idea than the previous was on its ideas, is honestly kinda depressing.

[naive hare]

I just came here trying to figure out what people r complaint about

[soft egret]

Yeah together with people who come here to be trolls, there are of course also people who are interested and just want to see whats going on, or want to have a civil discussion about stuff and want to learn stuff.
But these kinds of people usually don't pull all the attention

[soft egret]

Depends on your definition of "okay", can the owners of mass effect still take down your stuff if you violate their trademark? yes. Even if all assets were made manually by yourself

[heavy moon]

Yep, and I agree reform is needed on that front, especially with those falsely mass-claiming rights to things to abuse Youtube's Content-ID system which is designed to flag up those kinds of copyright infringements.

[stiff jasper]

I read this with Ben Shapiro voice with all these "hypotheticals" lmao. If all stuff is done by you the only issue I see is usage of Mass Effect name and names of the guns, there's a reason why Optre is called Optre and not Arma 3 Halo

[elfin heron]

I think if you're monetising the youtube video you could possibly cause some issues but w/e

[stiff jasper]

I'd also ask EA on [e-mail] if they actually mind people depicting Mass Effect in other games or not

[heavy moon]

Fishing for loopholes by way of hypotheticals does not get around breaking intellectual property rights, the law is the law, it cares not what you & your buddies would like to do with other peoples IP/trademarks/copyrights.

[stiff jasper]

through asking and getting a permission you might open new ways to introduce ME content in Arma and not end your career like Jmax mods

[carmine folio]

Alright, so then in stead of being called "MASS EFFECT mod name" It's called, "Spectre Rising/Beyond the Relay". Assets are renamed, and all made manuallly - then it could be okay? (Barring the copyright permssion)? Again, I'm not trying to subvert, I'm simply trying to learn. Mostly because I really do love being able to try overhaul mods with friends and wouldn't want to see such a fun thing go, without causing a big problem to Bohemia and the whole community too.

[crimson ingot]

you sure it's not a genre thing?

[soft egret]

If you make a storm tropper and call it "jimmy bob" its still a storm trooper.
It depends on what rights are protected, cannot specifically give you a yes or no to that

[plain rivet]

As long as the assets are all made by hand and it’s allowed by the respective ips licenses, it should be all good

[merry kestrel]

except when its not

[heavy moon]

Why not put your creative energies into making your own lore/story, you can invent any kind of universe you want to put into a game/book/film, surely that would be a more beneficial and productive use of your time.

[muted grove]

I'm glad for the new SC ruling about the DMCA though, that you are obligated to make a good faith subjective assessment of fair use before sending a DMCA.

[soft egret]

Its often not a easy answer to these questions.

[stiff jasper]

hence my suggestion to @ EA

[merry kestrel]

every company, from movies to games, all have different interpretations of what can break their copyright

[muted grove]

At least this makes 512f(?) claims even more potent

I forget whichever the false assertion segment is.

[merry kestrel]

heck there was even a case with the makers of Humvee's a while back, between them and COD

[crimson ingot]

or even MTP camo (forgot where i read that)

[timid pebble]

So what I am getting at through this all is no mod should exist because they all goes againist IP unless you come up with an orignal idea. Because i am sure Colt, H&k, Cyre and other mods haven't given permission for their brands and IP or inventions to be used in the mods.

[crimson ingot]

better read pinned messages

[elfin heron]

wut

[muted grove]

Those have been established to be fair use through out multiple court cases, i.e the example above, general dynamics(?) vs COD.

Realism is a valid reason to legally infringe, says the 9th circuit.

[stiff jasper]

"If realism is an artistic goal, then the presence in modern warfare games of vehicles employed by actual militaries undoubtedly furthers that goal." that was the ending sentence of judge handling this trial

but "dedicated" arma 3 rippers think that this also means that they can take COD assets and put them into this game

[heavy moon]

It is worth researching the GM vs. Activision ruling and case data to inform yourselves of all the ins and outs of that case as its not a clear-cut ruling, and iirc only applies to the items the case was called over.

[carmine folio]

Okay then. Apologies If I'm belabouring a point or coming off as combative (I hope I'm not doing so as i hope to be cooperative and come up with a working compromise). Fans will always be fans, and fan mods will always be made in games that allow modding. Wether it's stalker, half-life, RTS games, etcetera. I really love ARMA and the Community, and it would be such a blow to see these fun assets that bring people joy just disappear. I love ARMA, but ironically enough - I would have never heard of it until I was attracted to the game after learning about the star wars mod since I thought the idea of being able to have realistic military sandbox experience in a setting I love sound so cool as an introduction.

[merry kestrel]

I brought it up as an example where they suddenly decided to take COD to court

[rugged meteor]

effectively BIs argument is if its big it needs to be handmade and not ripped

[merry kestrel]

and an example of different companies that will be even willing to go to court over their own interpretations of IP

[muted grove]

Ah yes, General Motors not dynamics, I'm a dumbo.

[heavy moon]

yep, just reiterating that people should also research it themselves if they are interested in it, as one of the most recent big examples of those kinds of cases it's very educational.

[pliant oar]

you people need realize those assets are 'disappearing' all the time ... it's just matter when the reports reach us

just that someone managed to 'evade' the radar and not get banhammer for >insert random period of time<

[stiff jasper]

i find it a bit ironic that we have a giant community here that loves both Arma and MGS games and despite a clear global permission to repurpose Konami assets people are making their OC stuff

[pliant oar]

doesn't mean it will not happen

[rugged meteor]

theirs a lot that happened today in particular

[stiff jasper]

and stuff behind strict IP walls gets ported no matter how utterly shitty it looks

[crimson ingot]

Makes oil rig base in the middle of ocean

[rugged meteor]

speaking of, if youre gonna kill all this stuff today, whys armstalker still around?

that is like the actual worst offender of all this

[vivid scarab]

I'm not certain if this was addressed when I was skimming through the chat quickly - but the reason Microsoft's Game Content Usage Rules don't apply to Bethesda's titles is because they were written explicitly to apply to Xbox. Bethesda (and the various subsidiaries) are a separate company, for all intents and purposes.

[crimson ingot]

why not reporting it?

[pliant oar]

what happened, just multiple mods got banned which weren't supposed to be on the workshop in first place ...

[stiff jasper]

Stalker assets can be ported.

[rugged meteor]

i did already a long time ago

[merry kestrel]

was not intended as a replay to you, mostly to honger and Larisa

[vivid scarab]

Isn't the "Stalker is fine" stuff based on like, a forum post from ten plus years ago that isn't accessible anymore?

[rugged meteor]

fair but it has donator perms and parts of the mod are locked and unable to be hosted unless certain parts of the mod are removed

[timid pebble]

Okay this doesn't make any sense. So you can recreate a real world brand ,and item because it will never make money nor be able to be used, but you can't remake a fictional one in another game because you want to play that medium in a different way. That seems really ass backwards. If you aren't making money off of it then why would they care.

[pliant oar]

it's based on unverified post from non trusted account on forum which doesn't exist

[stiff jasper]

welcome to the world of capitalism

[pliant oar]

aka, not legally verifiable form again

[crimson ingot]

i like this quote, please allow me to use it in the future

[vivid scarab]

Aah, roger that. I was roughly in the same ballpark.

[pliant oar]

see i'm stuck betwen 2 grinding stones

[rugged meteor]

"shouldnt have been on the workshop in the first place" damn considering theyve all hit the front page at some point and have been around for years, sounds like it should've been done a long time ago

[vivid scarab]

I don't know how much relevance modern GSC has to the old Stalker IP and what they can / can't authorise, so it might be worth someone trying to get a more concise answer from their current legal department (although, given present circumstances I imagine they have other concerns).

[pliant oar]

1. adhere to IP rights and get rid of bad stuff

2. you killing all the fun by getting rid of bad stuff

[crimson ingot]

like hundreds of people on workshop?

[pliant oar]

wait there is 3rd stone

3. you don't do enough of 1.

4th stone

4. you doing too much of 2.

[wanton anchor]

So can we just start the civil war I'm ready to throw hands

[pliant oar]

[rugged meteor]

the first stone is addressed to you by exclusively 2 people who cry and whine about everything

stone 2 is the rest of the community

[muted grove]

You can absolutely do the same thing COD did, and make your self a hmmwv, but just like you can't run into a GM factory and steal a few hmmwv's to sell, you can't rip COD assets and use those in your own game without permission.

[merry kestrel]

STALKER is a very grey area, even then, I am surprised that no got any updated confirmation on that from GSC Game World

[rugged meteor]

your legal team sucks and is way too slow to consider this sensical in any way

[elfin heron]

@pliant oar why dont you just use a dice to decide which you do

[pliant oar]

who are you ? do you realize the level and size of IP theft going around ?

there are people stealing stolen stuff from stolen mods who stole stuff from random stuff reseller

[crimson ingot]

Stoleception

[pliant oar]

that's the reason you don't want stolen stuff to be in the community in the first place

[wanton anchor]

LOL

It's the Internet everything is stolen

[brazen whale]

Aren’t we all gamers here, can we not just have fun and mod things

[heavy moon]

This channel is to discuss IP violations of Bohemia games, your comment is entirely off-topic and inflammatory.

[timid pebble]

@muted grove My thing isn't about rips.

[pliant oar]

because then , someone says, sure you can take my >insert something< and put it into your >whatever submod<

and it spreads

[rugged meteor]

then pick one or the other, armstalker is a prime example of this

[plain rivet]

Sure, but as soon as it comes to taking assets straight from games, you get bonked

[delicate hamlet]

Or, alternatively, do esxtended lore base on that universe. You went to have the best of both world without directly using that content as a stepping stone

[rugged meteor]

JMs gear and aftermath litterally just rip theirs no reselling going on

you cannot pick both sides

[wanton anchor]

Mommy and daddy Bohemian interactive a
say no they don't want us to have fun

[merry kestrel]

fourth facepalm

[elfin heron]

arma players try not to throw a hissy fit when you cant do what you want challenge (impossible)

[rugged meteor]

moving on

[crimson ingot]

oh you do go have fun all you want, just not by breaking laws or rules

[rugged meteor]

so are you guys basically just acting on reports?

[pliant oar]

there are mods inspired by IP franchises but they got stuff done from scratch, they use 'safe names' and generally not infringe anyone IP

[wanton anchor]

Fuck the law

[pliant oar]

it can be done

[rugged meteor]

theirs no publishers backing anything, its just you guys right?

[vivid scarab]

I had a brief flick through Konami's ToU for MGS, but couldn't see anything that indicated one way or the other as it largely just refers to usage of the application.

That said, this stuck out.

[carmine folio]

Well bare in mind, Bohemia as a company do need to do what they can to not legally get in trouble and just doing their job. However, I also believe that the community can be able to express themselves if the right guidelines are offered. Hence, it being better for mods to have purely custom made assets that aren't ripped, safe asset names that don't directly tie to the original IP- while said overhaul mods of different franchises can be held on another mod distribution site that is community led and not connected to Bohemia. Can that be a better compromise that allows for the community to thrive while allowing the team to not get in hot water?

[vivid scarab]

*"2. Intellectual Property. Information and materials available in the Application, which may include video games and other software applications, and all components thereof such as audio-visual materials, Virtual Currency (as defined below) and Virtual Goods (as defined below) (collectively, “Materials”) are protected by copyright, trademark and other intellectual property rights, which are owned and controlled by Konami, its affiliated or related entities or its or their third-party content licensors or suppliers. Subject to your compliance with Konami Terms, Konami hereby grants to you a personal, limited, revocable non-transferable license to access and use Materials solely via the Application and solely for your personal, non-commercial purposes. Nothing contained in Application grants do or should be construed as granting any license or right to make commercial use of any Materials or other Konami or third-party copyrighted materials, trademarks or intellectual property without Konami’s prior written permission." *

[twin kernel]

ow my eyes!

[vivid scarab]

I believe that may answer the agreement-less usage column on the wiki a bit.

[rugged meteor]

so basically free to recreate so long as nonprofit

[vivid scarab]

https://www.konami.com/mg/mgs5/tpp/_common_all/eula/tppps3web/eula/eula.en.html

[rugged meteor]

like scp

thats an oddly open stance considering who konami is

[vivid scarab]

That said, this also only applies to MGSV The Phantom Pain. Without cross-comparing it to other MGS titles it's not all-encompassing.

[rugged meteor]

i mean thats mainly what the mod on the WS mainly is anyway

[crimson ingot]

what WS?

[rugged meteor]

not like theirs a mod on the ws that adds metal gear rex

the WorkShop

[carmine folio]

Again, sorry if it seems like I'm repeating a point.

[muted grove]

Welcome to my brand new mod NMGSV The Invisible Payne

Ngl idk if that'd fly or naw

[crimson ingot]

It was miller all along, he was the one reporting all the mods
Good thing all is calmed down for a sec

[heavy moon]

Section 3 states the things you may not do, three of them being:

• Modify, adapt, make derivative works of, translate, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble any portion of the Application.
• Remove any copyright, trademark or other proprietary rights notice from the Application or materials originating from the Application.
• Frame or mirror any part of the Application without Konami’s express prior written consent.

So you really can't do anything without their prior written consent.

[rugged meteor]

so imma just ask again then imma dip cause its fairly insufferable here

[vivid scarab]

Aha, missed that. Thank you Uro.

So yeah, definitely answers that one.

[rugged meteor]

this is just BI acting on steam reports, right?

[rugged meteor]

so the mod is clean because you cant verify they have consent without them answering

[merry kestrel]

and investigating the mods themselves

[rich estuary]

I don't think you will get a answer

[stiff jasper]

BI starts consulting the legal department when they receive reports, they don't ban just because 100 people report a mod

[heavy moon]

Stop taking my comments out of context to fit your narrative.

[rugged meteor]

i mean is it wrong?

[twin kernel]

lol

[rugged meteor]

im basically just wanting to know if publishers are pushing this

i have people in my unit who thinks that EA and MS are behind it so i came here to find the truth

[heavy moon]

see the pinned message

[stiff jasper]

ask EA and MS

mails were already posted here

[rugged meteor]

yes that kind of gives a clear picture but its not 100%

ill take that as 100% now i guess

[heavy moon]

what do you want? a road sign?

[hallow lark]

@rugged meteor section 2 specifically states
" Subject to your compliance with Konami Terms, Konami hereby grants to you a personal, limited, revocable non-transferable license to access and use Materials solely via the Application"
Nothing about using outside of the specified application.

[carmine folio]

Okay, so the compromise I posted earlier could work then, and keep the peace if done ideally?

[rugged meteor]

ah yeah that sounds like konami lol

a limited use license so long as you play

but thats just for ingame materials?

if its handmade?

[stiff jasper]

why are you so much against asking EA about bringing ME content into Arma?

[crimson ingot]

it's not just from other IPs, sometimes ripping/stealing assets (from other mods) also happens inside the Modding community. as said by Dwarden. #ip_rights_violations message

[stiff jasper]

i genuinely don't understand that

[rugged meteor]

a real legal team

[broken hornet]

this isn’t really a compromise, you always need permission to use someone else’s IP

[wanton anchor]

We have been free to play arma as we wish we will always remain free Down with the tyrannical government that is Bohemian Interactive

[pliant oar]

ask anyone who made anything of decent or awesome quality in past 10 years if his stuff wasn't at least once stolen

[broken hornet]

making it by scratch is pretty legit imo, but you really do need permission legally speaking

[pliant oar]

then ask someone as pufu and he gives you 1000 entries for start

[merry kestrel]

[stiff jasper]

actially it's Bohemia Entertainment

[muted grove]

Honestly I get why people don't want to ask, I can't tell you the amount of times I contacted dice about a non commercial license to use the BF IP for a fan art thing I was doing, only to get no reply at all. Even just a simple no reply would've sufficed, but the never ending silence can be demoralizing at times.

[crimson ingot]

Bold of you for someone in Banhammer range

[merry kestrel]

fifth use of that emoji

I hate that its the fifth time

[pliant oar]

the theft of IP made by modders is more common than theft of IP made by large companies, way more often than you imagine

[carmine folio]

Oh sorry, I seem to have given off the impression that its something I want to do. It's not, but I'm trying to find a way that could still appeal to the community on these types of overhaul mods as I wouldn't want to see such a fun part of the community just dissappear. Again, I'm not trying to be malicious or a bother.

[pliant oar]

and it's harder to track, harder to prove and harder to solve

what overhaul, they use ripped stuff flat out

[crimson ingot]

Twitter may help. as email from random source may get ignored by a big company like EA or DICE

[muted grove]

This is true, though I'd argue the modders theft isn't even remotely as bad as those companies, as the modders generally don't make any money where as those companies will make money hand over first, not that it justifies any of it, because it obviously does not.

[stiff jasper]

your content will disappear anyway if EA doesn't want it to exist, not asking them only prolongs the issue

[pliant oar]

it's not like 100% of all items is made from scratch

[pliant oar]

the point is that someone made stuff for free, as mod, from scratch, in his free time

[faint nacelle]

Example from proper way of doing things and how EA gave out permission is the C&C Tiberian Sun mod from @fluid elbow when he asked politely.

[merry kestrel]

and increases the possibility that it would be taken down

[pliant oar]

month later, n people stole his work and sold it as own (on turbosquid and random asset store)

you expect such person to release more work for free afterward ?

[muted grove]

Yeah that's obviously not ok.

[onyx iron]

Lets all start suing "insert Chinese phone manufacturer here" because they take forever to release their kernel code despite using GPL3 licensed code.

[vivid scarab]

EA are generally very responsive to the sort of request Sentry made, iirc.

[pliant oar]

now apply same to indie game developer work

[late imp]

People should look into the Fair use lawas

[pliant oar]

to small studio

to larger studio

[faint nacelle]

people suggesting such should too

[pliant oar]

where is the limit of "don't use what you dont have rights to" ?

[carmine folio]

That's fair. And Dwarden I'm referring to ideal situations where overhaul mods are constructed 100% with original assets, and in an ideal situation - given permission from said IP holder to release the mod.

[stiff jasper]

there is no Fair Use law, there can only be fair use case

[heavy moon]

Fair use does not apply to mods.

[late imp]

It does it applies to anything with a copyright

[stiff jasper]

it doesn't

if it does show me source

[late imp]

Before you say it doesnt look up the actual law and read the documentation

[stiff jasper]

what

[late imp]

https://www.findlaw.com/smallbusiness/intellectual-property/fair-use-law.html#:~:text=Under the doctrine of "fair,the%20principle%20of%20fair%20use.

It applies to any creative property

[stiff jasper]

do you know what "defense" means?

[crimson ingot]

oh we back talking about fair use again?
really getting in circle here

[twin kernel]

hee hee

[stiff jasper]

this whole article is obviously about your content being taken to court and then a judge decides whether it's fair use or not

its not up to you whether something is under fair use or not

[late imp]

Mods are just code lol

[stiff jasper]

ripped models are code?

[late imp]

and the models are what is in question

[crimson ingot]

i dont see any code on that list aswell

[stiff jasper]

💀

[maiden frigate]

God damn those trolls these days

"Mods are just code, code are words and words are news"

[rustic copper]

Code is protected under copyright

[crimson ingot]

and the news are bad

[late imp]

That too but you cant copy right a code model just the names and properties in the code

[stiff jasper]

duuude

[maiden frigate]

... what

[crimson ingot]

should refer to pinned message

[muted grove]

There's a lot more to fair use than just those listed things. Scroll down on the wiki fair use page and you'll see a lot of fair use examples that have nothing to do with any of the typical fair use factors.

[faint nacelle]

@late imp you are completely wrong here

[stiff jasper]

I recommend getting a free appointment with your local IP lawyer and tell him everything you just posted here to be put right if you don't believe us

before you regret it

[late imp]

https://prnt.sc/B11cSQEp4r2F

those terms can be copyrighted but not the module and in oop you use the same modules

[crimson ingot]

what are we seeing here

[maiden frigate]

Also doesnt change things i guess. BI taking mods down because they are very likely full of stolen content or bear the high possibility of being IP infringement is just a policy you need to ferry around

[late imp]

so if you change the names it is custom code

[merry kestrel]

nooooooooooooo

[late imp]

Wait a minute I am not arguing with any staff here this is a waste of time I am making actual documentation for this so you guys have fun arguing with no first hand knowledge dealing with this

[heavy moon]

Let me just go and copy the Windows source code and change all the variable names, it'll be fine.
Great thought process there.

[maiden frigate]

Im very happy about @pliant oar s replies here (check pins), because that kind of at least gives you something to work with.

[vivid hill]

I would like to see how a mod competes with the game it is a modification of? I’m not saying you’re incorrect or anything, but I would like a bit more information on how that’s possible? Wouldn’t you need to be actively using the service (game) to use the mod? And in some ways, you’d need to purchase the game in order to even make use of the mod. So you’re still buying the product. Giving money and revenue to the correct parties, while also using modified content. (As opposed to malicious hacks of course.)

Like take for example, I wanted to purchase a video game for the sole reason X mod was made for it. Is the mod driving competition against the game? I’m still paying the developers, so that’s where I am confused.

Sorry for the long winded question! Just wanted to know more about this.

[crimson ingot]

Dwarden also checks inside the mods so it's not just Reported = Ban

[maiden frigate]

To stop the purge, write your Mods IP Owner and hope for the best to be safe. Or cower in the corner and await judgement day for your mod if BI looks over your mod and you cant back up your rights.

[crimson ingot]

or ask the IP owner for Permission

[faint nacelle]

you dont need to buy the game if you can play with its contents in another game

[maiden frigate]

Thats what i meant. Write the IP Owner your mod is about.

[elfin mirage]

and if IP holders don’t answer for a whole year then what

[ember sorrel]

FWIW the impression I have been given is that the GCUR does not itself trump pre-existing, bespoke licensing for a particular IP

[maiden frigate]

And if BI takes your mod down, i guess with a popular mod you should have the outreach to start a discussion. Having no answer is an answer you can give to Bohemia.

[vivid hill]

OH! You’re talking about X themed Mod in Y game that’s not the original X game. Correct? Sorry for the borderline math equations lmao.

[heavy moon]

if they dont reply to you, you still have no licence.

[elfin mirage]

No crap Sherlock

[faint nacelle]

this is what is tried to be justified here yes

[elfin mirage]

Stating the obvious

[crimson ingot]

you want answer there it is, no need to be angry about it

[ember sorrel]

then you dont make the mod

[heavy moon]

if the reply to your question was that obvious, why bother asking?

[ember sorrel]

seems pretty simple

[vivid hill]

Okay thank you so much. That clears it up for me then and makes total sense. Yeah I could see how a mod could compete against its original game(s) in that context.

[muted grove]

I'd have to disagree, it very clearly sets out a license, for the titles they have ip ownership over, and the IPs that aren't covered by that agreement, are explicitly listed.

[maiden frigate]

Sad reality - if BI interprets a no-answer as a no instead of a yes, one can only winge and complain. But you have certainty what happens.

[elfin mirage]

Yeh that’s the reality with most Star Wars unfortunately

[faint nacelle]

default state is no

need answer "yes" to change that

[elfin mirage]

The dude who is in charge doesn’t answer anything

[ember sorrel]

that info is based off of a conversation with a 343 employee, I'm certainly not going to try to argue the matter with you as the only game I have detailed knowledge regarding is halo obvi

[crimson ingot]

"if you can play it here, why bother buying that"
it kinda sounds like that

[maiden frigate]

I think most are more looking at the border case that the IP Owners terms are kinda wonky and dont explicitly state yes or no.

[soft egret]

If license says no, and person who you ask for permission doesn't say yes. The final answer is No indeed.
Doesn't matter if you find it unfair that they are not answering, the no still stays.

[maiden frigate]

Big example 40k.

[elfin mirage]

If I’m correct gamebox doesn’t want mods replicating 40k like they don’t mind your own factions/characters but not predefined characters in the story etc

Atleast that’s what I read

And interpreted

[maiden frigate]

That exactly is the wonky thing.

"You can make mod for game y/n and please follows these rules" is not clearly stated there - and i have problems interpreting it.

[pliant oar]

but our stance never changed, we doing that since we have any workshop and we were doing the same before that in modDB era, ofp info , arma info, armaholic etc.

BIForums and Discord always had strict stance on big IP issues too

[covert holly]

BI is playing it safe, to be fair. It is best for them to deal with the obvious ones first, and then investigate into the other stuff.

[covert holly]

^

[elfin mirage]

I don’t blame y’all for playin safe tbh

[pliant oar]

it's not like 'something all of sudden happen' it's been always the same ... sometimes more mods gets banned at once that's it

[elfin mirage]

can we just agree tho disney sucks yeh?

[maiden frigate]

Exactly. For me as a semi-casual user it wasnt as clearly stated on like the A3 wiki or something. So when another big mod goes away you are scared for your own. That is all, and thus i thank you for repeating the already established modus operandi. 🙂

[crimson ingot]

check BI Wiki

[pliant oar]

and especially don't blame us, blame those with 'fancy IP universes' to not have creatively open licenses 😁

[covert holly]

Eh it's not just a disney issue, it's a IP law issue.

[stiff jasper]

nah of course it's your personal vendetta because you don't work in Activision!!!

[elfin mirage]

Lucasfilms need new IP guy who will actually answer emails smh

Or Lucas arts

Whatever it is now

[pliant oar]

if Activision hired me, they would not need sell itself and be the ones buying those who bought them ... but it's theirs loss

[maiden frigate]

People get riled up about shite. I want my funny plastic man running in Arma, am thankful for anything possible and scared of losing it.

But yes, most franchises suck in givin people permission to create art.

[crimson ingot]

if George himself still own Starwars he may give a yes for non profit arma 3 mods

[covert holly]

^

[elfin mirage]

🥲 don’t remind me

[muted grove]

Lucas Art can still give out licenses.

[covert holly]

But we don't have George anymore.

[maiden frigate]

yup

Georgy man sold it

[muted grove]

They did so for the one vader fan film, then disney claimed it and put ads on it, violating the license

[maiden frigate]

After he raised a million dollars not crowd funding it because disney said so, so that he could release it.

[covert holly]

Mhm, as I said, wouldn't put it past disney-lucasfilm to be hella sketch and stuff

[muted grove]

Another example of why YT's content ID system is hot garbage and not actually compliant with the DMCA

[maiden frigate]

Gotta love the big daemon mouse people

[muted grove]

Lucas is fine, it's disney that can't help themselves from being greedy over reaching dmca abusing insert whatever.

[pliant oar]

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property#Other_Intellectual_Properties

[muted grove]

In fact, if you contacted lucasfirm/art you could probably get a license to make a star wars mod in arma if it's non profit etc.

[covert holly]

Nah, Lucasfilm's been involved with this stuff as well

While under Disney

[crimson ingot]

Risky cuz BI don't want anything to do with Disney ip

[muted grove]

And Disney really cannot do anything about it because of the purchase agreement explicitly lets lucas still license their stuff.

[muted grove]

I haven't heard of Lucas violating licensing agreements with fan art creators, but I know disney loves to not talk to the other hand and just fire their lazors at anything they see.

[covert holly]

Fair. Lucasfilm and Disney usually tries to cover that stuff up, and memory-hole it

It's nothing new

[muted grove]

But yeah, honestly we need to protect fan art legally, so long it's only commercial when they have a license, and non commercial when no license exists. I don't really care what type of art it is, people have a right to free speech, it's not the place of the government to regulate it (outside the clearly established exceptions to free speech), if someone wants to make a mod mocking disney by making a horror mod of mickey mouse (out of copyright protection now I think? But lets imagine it's still protected) they should be able to do that.

[faint nacelle]

parody work (mod) like that could actually fall into fair use (would consult IP lawyer first though)

[muted grove]

But I thought you said mods aren't covered by fair use?

[faint nacelle]

nobody has been making parody/satire mods

[stiff jasper]

but it's not up to mod maker or ip owner to decide if this is fair use, still would end in a court and might require more money than it's actually worth to fight Disney

[muted grove]

But still, that was just an example.

[faint nacelle]

true

[stiff jasper]

whenever someone brings fair use and Disney in one topic I always have the Mickey Mouse in Vietnam and Mickey Mouse PTSD videos in mind, which author had to change characters to look less like the Disney counterparts to not be sued by Disney

(they are worth watching btw)

[faint nacelle]

negative

[stiff jasper]

they weren't, are you capable of reading?

[south egret]

Fair use is more a thing commentary/educative/parody etc. purposes. So you can't claim it unless there is such valid reason to do so. Most of the time people get it wrong and think it's free for-all pass.

Facepalm, fair use has been explained here multiple times. It is no excuse to rip stuff unless you are doing things which are part of fair usage which ripping stufff 1:1 definitely isn't.

[muted grove]

My point is, we should be able to make mods from scratch based of just about anything, obviously content ripping isn't fan art, that's just content ripping, but like actually making your own models based off of game IP's, should be entirely ok.

I guess this might be a bit of an extremist view but I don't think the authors should have any ability to control derivative works of their ideas alone. Their specific expression of that creation yes.

[crimson ingot]

Refer to pinned messages

[muted grove]

Then again that might be a bit off topic for this channel and more suited for #other_ip_topics

[stiff jasper]

no one cares about sci-fi communities, if anybody is guilty of Aftermath being taken down is people like you

[vestal hazel]

bruh people still going on about this?

read section 8B of the terms of use of the Obsidian Entertainment which is the Microsoft service agreement.

Section 8B says the following is not permitted.

i. circumvent or bypass any technological protection measures in or relating to the software or Services;
ii. disassemble, decompile, decrypt, hack, emulate, exploit, or reverse engineer any software or other aspect of the Services that is included in or accessible through the Services, except and only to the extent that the applicable copyright law expressly permits doing so;
iii. separate components of the software or Services for use on different devices;

[crimson ingot]

that's one down, more to go

[maiden frigate]

Love the cleanup bot.

[muted grove]

Honestly the falme typo is kind of fitting.

[crimson ingot]

ikr, valkrj best bot

[muted grove]

Because falme, falmer, bethesda, bethesda infringement.

I'll see my self out now

[ember sorrel]

dont see any reason to go that far lol

[faint nacelle]

Im sure the message gets through and anyone checking the moderation history can see what it was supposed to be

typo or no

[crimson ingot]

aha ha
insert that emu/ostrich from family guy gif

[muted grove]

Oh yeah I just thought it was a funny coincidence that actually kind of fit

[stiff jasper]

I just respond to hot takes that dropping Aftermath and JMax mods is a community killer while CUP, RHS and all legit stuff is still accessible and used by dozens of thousands of people

[maiden frigate]

Could anyone give me the link to the BI wiki IP thingy dinghy?

[stiff jasper]

sorry if you feel offended but that's how it is

[carmine folio]

aftermath was a garbage mod anyway... low effort trash, no one is going to cry about that thing

[maiden frigate]

Well yes, people who used it to play Fallout Military Campaigns

[stiff jasper]

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property here

[maiden frigate]

Thank youuuu

[ember sorrel]

yeah obviously theres lots of crying that deserves to be dismissed, I just think its harsh to throw all the kosher sci fi mods under the bus with em is all

i dont think thats actually what you were trying to do but it reads like that for sure

[maiden frigate]

Yeah, the big sci-fi IPs have their thousands of Arma fans for sure.

[elfin heron]

no such thing

[glad coral]

who tf did i flame

whoever warned me

[crimson ingot]

you do what?

[tulip badge]

[crimson ingot]

you can ask the mod about the issue in #discord_server

[stiff jasper]

thank you for your insight

[tulip badge]

you're welcome

[pliant jolt]

I do want to ask, how did such a massive mod like Aftermath fly under the radar for so long? I understand the report system sucked, but how did not a single BI employee see such a popular mod on the workshop for so long?

[crimson ingot]

Legal stuff etc etc

[muted grove]

Most probable answer? Avoiding red flag knowledge, if they become aware of copyright infringement they have to investigate and take action or risk being directly liable, so it's probably just more efficient to wait for reports and investigate those. That or searching the entire workshop takes more work than is reasonable for them to put in when reports do a decent job.

Or maybe I was just the first one to directly link to aftermath in here, where as every other report might just have been by mod name?

[glossy depot]

@pliant jolt Steam controlled the workshop until now

[tropic halo]

So has moderation moved to BI instead of steam?

[pliant jolt]

That's a fair point. I just wish a mod so popular had been actioned on earlier, before communities formed and sub-mods were made etc. Still amazed they got away with it for as long as they did

[faint nacelle]

there were some improvements to moderation tools in the workshop relatively recently

[stiff jasper]

I thought it's obvious that Reforger utilizes its own workshop because Steam has too much to say when it comes to manage mods

[glossy depot]

@tropic halo Yeah, because we upload to their personal workshop now

[tropic halo]

Ah. I see

[pliant oar]

i could try complex explanation of all the issues with steam workshop moderation and administration

[stiff jasper]

do it

[pliant oar]

instead of that ... i decided to make sure we don't have those with our workshop

[muted grove]

Would be really interesting tbh, but probably best not to tell people how to avoid being caught

[tropic halo]

I understand why these mods are gone.
It is still a little sad to lose some interesting mods

On the rare occasion I would use them

[pliant oar]

i understand, unfortunately this ain't something like "change your mod name because you were naive and used protected trademark name"

(which was case of loss of many great mods on modDB to C&D from big IP e.g. homeworld mods)

[tropic halo]

Yeah. It’s a bigger issue and all that.

Aftermath caught me a little by surprised

The JM mods are all asset ripped anyway

Surprise*

[iron cloud]

Nobody was surprised by JM getting the boot. We seen it coming 2 months back.

[stiff jasper]

I just messaged all the GSC staff about Stalker assets and I hope they will answer my concerns before they block me for spam lol

[tropic halo]

Haha

[pliant oar]

i was promised that someone will ensure several developers will message me with approval of theirs games

months passed and i got 0 emails

[tropic halo]

That’s usually the way 😂

Either out of lack of effort or shame

[pliant oar]

ye sadly most of time it is

[iron cloud]

Does BI have an announcement regarding the scope of what would get nixed?

Just ripped assets or anything?

[pliant oar]

people often don't realize that even if someone from the 'team' promise them it's possible or give them soft assurance

it needs to be vetted by leads / legal department

and usually that's where it gets infinity loop

[tropic halo]

I asked a company for music once

[glossy depot]

@iron cloud You cant use copywritten material that is illegal for use.

[tropic halo]

6 months and 6 emails later

[stiff jasper]

everything breaking any EULAs or Intellectual Property laws will go down sooner or later, you might get more info about a scope of that by contacting your local IP lawyer

[tropic halo]

I assumed it was a no

[pliant oar]

music is even more painful, some tunes have e.g. limited license for specific work (e.g. single game) and even those are time limited (e.g. several years)

[muted grove]

Not to mention, music has like 16 copyrights to them

[pliant oar]

those botched 'deals' causing headache later, if you want e.g. re-release the title on something like gog

[tropic halo]

Yeah

[muted grove]

And it's INCREDIBLY rare for one entity to hold all copyrights

[pliant oar]

also, some works aren't exclusive, e.g. they gifted or donated to company for the game

[tropic halo]

That reminds me

[pliant oar]

but the real IP is still owned by the author and he can license it to completely different game

[iron cloud]

We have permission from Rooster Teeth, so I assume we would be safe?

[tropic halo]

There are so many music mods on the workshop. What’s happening with those?

[crimson ingot]

oh just like the GM Lynx for Arma 3

[pliant oar]

not exactly ... imagine even more complex scenario, where you don't know who the real author is

[stiff jasper]

if your mod gets taken down when you have permission you can always counterclaim with proof to bring it back easily but yeah, proof for using something means you can use it. I don't know what is Rooster Teeth tho

[iron cloud]

Halo stuff, technically it's 2 different IPs

that we have to worry about in our case.

Microsoft and Rooster Teeth.

[glossy depot]

@tropic halo As far as those mods go, they're probably illegal.

[pliant oar]

it's like doing urban warfare operations, in arty devastated area someone just sprayed with Anti Personell mines via MLRS cluster canisters in past week

[glossy depot]

the music mods that is

[stiff jasper]

you can DM these to Dwarden right now to save any time you might waste on fighting Steam later

[glossy depot]

@iron cloud 343 industries as well

[iron cloud]

That as well, yes haha

[pliant oar]

honger most of those bans , are done by me ... steam self mostly does absolute transgressions or DMCA

i'm not happy about banning some, but if i don't do it, nobody will and it will become pit full of things nobody want to touch

[stiff jasper]

but if someone appeals for an unban then does it go to you or is it resolved with Steam as a middle man or something?

[iron cloud]

I thought DMCA's went to Steam

Since I tried DMCAing our Aux that got jacked and Steam refused to touch it or return it.

[pliant oar]

appeal of unban means to be completely clean on everything

DMCA needs to be done right ... best to ask for advice those who know how to do it or lawyer (or both)

[iron cloud]

How do you prove ownership if you aren't the original IP owner?

i.e. HALO content.

Even if everything is your own creation, 0 rips.

90% of it is scripts which I don't think is protected?

[stiff jasper]

I guess it's about your source files, documentation and copy of a written permission from the IP owner

[pliant oar]

you can then go with the artistic recreation license but that brings another problem

some IPs have protected designs (some even names of characters/planets w/e, logos, languages etc.)

[stiff jasper]

such case definitely should land in front of a legal affairs lawyer

[pliant oar]

hence like star trek, you have the fan community made ship designs which aren't cannon

[iron cloud]

Most people would just give up the battle when it gets to the point of needing a lawyer.

[plain rivet]

Wish we had a discord IP lawyer just watching this channel all day or be able to ping them

Would make things simpler

[pliant oar]

to avoid being takedown because they equal or nearly same as protected design of ship xyz

[stiff jasper]

USP uses their Chad Brad to an extent when it comes to DMCA

[iron cloud]

Chad Brad?

[stiff jasper]

name of the lawyer, I love it

[pliant oar]

but that lawyer will be like wish i get paid for all the pings 🤣

[iron cloud]

Like why would I hire a lawyer to protect something that is already free

and makes me no money.

Its like a losing battle.

[pliant oar]

best way is to make your own universe 😉

[heavy moon]

If you aren't the original IP owner you cant*.

* If you have been supplied with a written legal document proving you are authorised with a legal license exemption to use their IP, then that would be proof, but by that time I would sincerely hope you have sought paid legal advice, in both obtaining said sub-licence and with any DMCA issues.

[pliant oar]

you know like ... Angels Fall First done

[glossy depot]

@pliant oar 110%

[vestal hazel]

thats what I did 😄

[stiff jasper]

because someone can sell the stuff you wanted to distribute free or build upon it and claim as their own, it's all about how much you value your work you put into it

[pliant oar]

then , you can even license it to someone and make real $

but beware ... someone will try steal it from you too 😁

oh my, full circle

[iron cloud]

Like I can see Scion Conflict doing that.

but the rest of us, unlikely.

[stiff jasper]

and winning a case can reward you with money the other side has to pay

[iron cloud]

Fair

That's true if you win

but hard to win unless you are sole IP owner.

[pliant oar]

it's hard to win vs thieves hiding on anonymous internet from country which don't care about IP laws

[stiff jasper]

even if you're not an owner of Halo universe you are an owner of the model you did so you partially are supposed to fight for your IP

[iron cloud]

What about scripts?

Are those protected by Bohemia?

Our work as scripters?

[glossy depot]

NO ^^^

[iron cloud]

Figured

[tropic halo]

lol

[pliant oar]

bad idea to post such gif

[stiff jasper]

what do you mean

some stuff is copyrighted some is used under GPL or other licences

[glossy depot]

@iron cloud Write all of your code in notepad ++ don't use their software to create it.

[pliant oar]

you entered monitored moderatorspace

[tropic halo]

Are gifs naughty?

[iron cloud]

Soon as it hits the workshop though

Is what I am referring to.

Even if you protect the pbo

Ppl can get past that.

[tropic halo]

I just hope maps are safe

[glossy depot]

@iron cloud Host privately

[tropic halo]

I can't see why they wouldn't be

[glossy depot]

on git or something

but then again

you still have to pack

with their tools

[iron cloud]

Exactly

[glossy depot]

so they own it all

and thats why modding sucks

but, im not gonna stop

[stiff jasper]

tldr for BITools EULA:

"Regarding BI Tools usage, anything that went through BI Tools can NOT be sold by default, without express authorization from Bohemia Interactive"

[iron cloud]

[livid yoke]

unsure about that especially if something like Op Trebuchet that uses Halo themed maps are removed idk i just got on and heard about this shit show

[glossy depot]

because i love it

[stiff jasper]

so not it not sucks, it literally requires you to ask more than once to get permissions you want and if you behave you get them

[iron cloud]

Like the stuff we make, it is all unique for our unit, and someone could just up and grab that from us.

Take all the code and revamp

Cause 0 protections for scripting.

[stiff jasper]

if you can prove this code is totally yours and not refurbished github 10yo repo you can DMCA it, scripts are protected under licenses you give them

[heavy moon]

since your new here, this is your first on only warning on the use of profanity and off-topic commenting.

[glossy depot]

@iron cloud Write all of your scripts in notepad ++ then you can sell them if you want

[iron cloud]

How do I license my own code?

I don't want to sell it.

[stiff jasper]

someone already had a discussion about it and I could find it if not that aftermath spamfest

[glossy depot]

you can't use their tools for anything you want to sell

[waxen ibex]

Ok ok sorry

[livid yoke]

may i ask why i wasn't warned for profanity?

but The Guardian was?

[stiff jasper]

it depends on what do you want to do with it and how you made it

ACE code is under GNU GPL with some additions i think

[iron cloud]

GNU lets them redistribute though iirc, for non-commercial.

[stiff jasper]

other dude that made code for his website that connected it and game server was under some strict policy but I can't find the discussion

[livid yoke]

B R U H

[merry kestrel]

was about to say that it was not just* about profanity, but it was also random, but I guess not (meant to say "just" here)

[muted grove]

Yeah there's a huge difference between you're a fucking insert word and this thing is fucking cool.

[stiff jasper]

https://choosealicense.com this might be useful

you can always make your custom license or look for code work that is under license you'd like to use too

[livid yoke]

also i did not request for my message to be given a warning for profanity

i simply asked why the 2 cases were different

[heavy moon]

if you want to post off-topic items we have an entire category for that, we also have #rules which apply to everyone.

[stiff jasper]

I release all my stuff copyleft or with license the source of my fork is using so I can't help more really

[iron cloud]

Thanks for this.

[livid yoke]

i respect your answer however this did not answer my question and considering this is on the topic of 2 messages relating to the ongoing issue with mass removal of workshop items on steam due to ip rights violation and why one message by The Guardian was warned for profanity but mine was not (until you presumed i was asking for a voluntary warning)

[muted grove]

Here we go again

[heavy moon]

so I warned you both, since you were feeling left out.

[crimson ingot]

ah dang it we may gonna get a slowmode in this chat

[stone latch]

what was this mass removal about?
copyright on the stuff that was being modded "ex. star wars"?
i am schewpid

[crimson ingot]

check pinned msg

[livid yoke]

okay we seem to not be on the same page here i was not feeling left out i was pointing out why he received a warning and i did not, i don't know what the rules are for moderation but I would assume false warnings would be against them

[pliant oar]

only gifs with content like 'real people on fire' ... aka #rules (don't forget Discord ToS)

[heavy moon]

you are going off-topic for this room and quite frankly making an issue out of nothing, if you have issues with this server move your complaint to #discord_server

[livid yoke]

understood

[pliant oar]

if you are able to prove someone stole your code then it will be taken down

[tropic halo]

Haha fair

[iron cloud]

We don't really deal with models just mainly code, so there wasn't much concern there.

[sweet gulch]

So what exactly is allowed and isn't allowed anymore?

aslong as everything is made by yourself, and not stolen its fine right?

[elfin heron]

There's no any more about it, this is how it's always been by law

[merry kestrel]

and if it is based on a IP, for example a faction based on a group from a tv show, seek permission first

[arctic pulsar]

lmao some guys on this discord

[rugged meteor]

considering several of the mods taken down today have been but for several years before magically being verified as bad, i think "any more" is applicable

[elfin heron]

maybe if the arma community stopped uploading ripped content said ripped content wouldnt stay up so long 🙃

[whole sedge]

So the removal was from using ripped content and not the violation of Microsoft fallout ip right?

[atomic edge]

Yes

[whole sedge]

If you don't own the ip for something is that grounds enough for a dmca takedown?

[pliant jolt]

Depends on the IP. Some say its fine to make your own content, others don't. As you said, the bigger problem is usage of ripped content

[whole sedge]

I'm asking for a Bohemia staff to answer.

Mainly because of how dwardens pinned message is worded

[atomic edge]

And you are right to do so in my opinion. I'm all for creative freedom but I don't like when people steal things. Modding is such a complex scene, most people are just happy to be able to add and play Pikachu in a game, just because it's cool. In reality they don't care about the IP, they just want to have fun and that's the case for many gamers and many modders on many games. I don't know of any other game where modding is monitored like here and I think it's a good choice to monitor what's going on and act when necessary.

I'm sad to see some mods disappear because there are some I really love but it's also for the good of the modding community. Improving the platform legitimizes the work of the modders and I think that's great for the industry.

This is only my point of view of course, many see it differently and I understand why.

[soft egret]

"anymore" nothing changed, its same as always

[muted grove]

Also if that faction is based on a real unit, you don't need permission to copy the real unit, you just need permission to copy their characters if those characters are fictional, and not based on real people. Example is the tv show swat, you can make swat characters all day long but you probably cannot call one of your swat characters "Sergeant Daniel "Hondo" Harrelson", you can make air force people but you probably cannot make a Stargate sg1 faction with a character called 'Jack O'Neill" without permission etc

[soft egret]

No, you can only DMCA what you own.
And this wasn't a DMCA anyway

[muted grove]

And I only say probably because character names cannot be copyrighted in it of themselves, the names can only receive trademark protection if they are eligible for that. It's the character as a whole, that can be copyright protected, so a Stargate team leader called Jack O'Neill that is a Colonel etc. If you make a generic air force Colonel called Col Jack O'Neill then that's not copyright infringement. But if you take other factors from that character that is copyright protected, that is where you run into issues.

[faint nacelle]

Best thing anyone who wants to make something in someone else's IP is to ask permission. Many IP owners don't actually mind fan made stuff as long as it's asked first, makes no money (many ripped assets using mods also make money through patron and such which is a additional nono) and respects the original IP.

If one is a real fan of some IP, they go through the right channels to make stuff.

[soft egret]

Hey so, I just went back through the moderation logs.
The Guardian wasn't officially warned, it was just a verbal warning, and it was aimed as a general message to everyone in the channel to stop posting offtopic.
His post was not removed for containing profanity (profanity doesn't violate our rules, only excessive/targeted profanity does), it was removed because it was entirely offtopic.

Also sorry about your invalid warning, it has been removed from your moderation log.

[stiff jasper]

so I guess that means it's a no-no for porting Stalker assets to other games?

[upbeat tinsel]

you would have to ask them that

[muted grove]

But arma devs and mods are inconsiderate assholes that never admit their wrongs?!!1!!!1 /s

Dedmen out here proving em wrong time after time, without recognition.

[upbeat tinsel]

well steam is a DMCA safe harbour so unless it does not go against steams EULA or is DMCA struck, in my mind arma modders have done nothing wrong as it allows more authentic mods like for instance Titanfall to be added to the game at really high quality without taking from the company that owns the ips pocket in alot of cases

[soft egret]

Well it somewhat goes against steam's EULA.
You give them quite a few rights to your content by uploading there, rights you don't have for stolen content

[chilly silo]

Bottom line here is using unauthorised IP is "wrong/illegal", And if you read the EULA using that without proper permission is against the EULA. And if BI decide it violates the terms of the use they've chosen to create it can be removed. Its their house and their rules.

[faint nacelle]

If someone wants to make a titan fall mod for Arma the correct procedure is:

Get permission to use the IP

Make new models and put them in game

Enjoy

[upbeat tinsel]

well proper permission is a subjective term at best and if used should really be updated as it leaves so much room to be exploited by people

what would be the bottom line for proper permission

[faint nacelle]

exploited how?

[upbeat tinsel]

well it could be used to falsely remove mods for the workshop if a person reviewing decides that it does not have proper permission

i can give an example about another way, lets say the Respawn allow me to use assets from the game Titanfall over the phone then i make my mods and upload it. it is then removed for not having "proper permission"

where is line

will they need an email stating?

[faint nacelle]

That would probably be good yes.

[weary star]

Sorry in advance for the tag, but Jm's Titanfall mod was flagged for DMCA infringment in the first 2 weeks since released on the Workshop and it was resolved. Now the mod's completely gone.

[upbeat tinsel]

it was flagged because of fighting between people

i think

[faint nacelle]

I dont know details on that.

[weary star]

Yes, but nor EA or Respawn went after them in the end

[upbeat tinsel]

no they did not care

bigger fish to fry if you will

i think

i could be wrong

[faint nacelle]

Basiscally it comes down to BI not wanting mods with ripped assets on their platform I believe.

this has always been the policy

[upbeat tinsel]

well yeah but how does BI know its not got proper permission

[faint nacelle]

the modder would have to communicate that

[stiff jasper]

that's why you can appeal for an unban providing proof of permission to BI

[upbeat tinsel]

guilty till proven innocent damn

that sucks

[stiff jasper]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[weary star]

Still, the EULA is outdated, since any EA stuff is on it under other Licenses, which includes the Mass Effect mods

Star wars is under Disney

[faint nacelle]

Most games dont allow their assets to be moved to other games. such things need special permission

and Im fairly sure such happen rarely.

[upbeat tinsel]

eeehhhhhhh

older games

happens alot

[faint nacelle]

making new stuff in a estabalished IP is different thing though, As in many IP owners can allow that if asked

[faint nacelle]

well at least personally I dont know of any case like that. But I dont know all the games or mod all the games either

[upbeat tinsel]

well big companies normally dont really care when a game is past or at its End of life

a better example of this happening would be emulation

[faint nacelle]

permission still has to be obtained for proper procedure

[weary star]

Would BI still go after the deleted mods even if this time they have the permission or a sub-license for the IP, as an example?

[dusty nimbus]

Why would they

If you have permission, then you’re good

[upbeat tinsel]

not exactly true an argument could be made that the company that owns the model no longer makes any money of said model so wont hurt the companies profits then making it fair use

[dusty nimbus]

If not then not

[faint nacelle]

I dont know, probably not. That would likely be evaluated if a modder comes back with such permissions

[faint nacelle]

no

its not how it works

[dusty nimbus]

If you make a painting and you don’t make money off it

And someone copied and sold it

You have the right to take action

[upbeat tinsel]

im on about in terms of emulation

[dusty nimbus]

IP rights are universal

[faint nacelle]

I know this is not what you wanted to hear but the ripper people are in the wrong here.

and they are aware

[soft egret]

Thats not how fair use works.
"Not commerically hurting someone else" != fair use
fair use has very specific requirements. Commercial use or not isn't even part of it

[dusty nimbus]

A neat analogy would be:
Imagine if someone steals your painting, and makes it into postcards. Yeah it might look nice, and it’s not been done, but you still have the right to your work.

Same goes for models

[upbeat tinsel]

im guhhing rn

we are on about two different things exerdamn

[dusty nimbus]

Porting shit from fallout, or cod or whatever into arma and using it non-commercially is not allowed

If it infringes on the license*

[chilly silo]

Fair Use simply cannot apply to modding https://arma3practicalipguide.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

It simply is not intended to allow someone to take a model and re-use it for ostensibly the same purpose. The criteria to use that defence simply does not match in ANY country in the world.

[upbeat tinsel]

yeah i know

[weary star]

Not to start the argument again. Would say that Aftermath being taken down after 5-6 years being on the workshop took me very hard by surprise, while I was making a scenario to play with friends.
Aftermath had a similar history of being DMCA'd once in a while but always resolved them.

On the other hand Star Wars related content was always rolling mine waiting to explode and get taken down by Disney.

[chilly silo]

Nope thats called Copyright Infringement.

[soft egret]

My unit asked me about using Aftermath, and I said "no thats ripped stuff, we don't use such stuff" (you just had to open the steam page and look at a couple screenshots to see its 1-to-1 perfect rips from the game)
I was surprised about how it was allowed to stay up for so long.

[upbeat tinsel]

i dont get whats wrong with using that mod though its not u that has ripped it

[faint nacelle]

This time stars aligned that way. For the users of the mod it would have been better if it was caught earlier on

[upbeat tinsel]

no blood on your hands if you will

[faint nacelle]

well that way of thinking is big part of the problem

[soft egret]

Nothing besides ethical concerns.
The people who are making and redistributing it are doing the bad stuff.

I for one don't want to promote illegal content, or put my name on it (which I'd do if I would play with it, stream it, have screenshots on our unit twitter page)

[upbeat tinsel]

well if its a really fun mod why not if you get what im saying

[faint nacelle]

its wrong?

[upbeat tinsel]

as a person who plays the game you should have every right to play as you wish

and modding helps that

even its its illegal content like stolen assets

[crimson ingot]

be very careful where u put ur steps

[faint nacelle]

sooo by that analogy if someone steals something you own, like a car if you have one, its ok if they enjoy driving it?

[soft egret]

If you get offered a sports car with broken window for $50 in a shady side street... why not if its fun?

In my country, possession of stolen goods is illegal too. Not just stealing

[upbeat tinsel]

well if you buy that car then whats stopping you for doing what you want with it

i bought arma 3 why cant i mod it how i want

[dusty nimbus]

The law lol

[upbeat tinsel]

well yeah

[crimson ingot]

The Police

[upbeat tinsel]

but its cases to case

[faint nacelle]

because there are rules

[soft egret]

You can. Didn't say you can't.
You can privately do whatever you want.
If you want to use stolen content, go ahead, have fun.

As long as its private (as in, only YOU, NOONE and ABSOLUTELY NOONE else)

As soon as you share your illegal stuff, give it to others, posts screenshots or videos of it, its no longer private, and thats where you start to get trouble

[fluid elbow]

You repeat the whole discussion now several times

[soft egret]

There are some things that are even forbidden to do privately, possession of some drugs for example.
Having ripped content out of games you own, is not (Well its probably still a EULA/License violation of that game, so if they find out they can still get you for that, but if its really private, then they can't know).

[upbeat tinsel]

i dont see much of an issue i gets thats its wrong but worse things happen daily and downloading an arma 3 mod and enjoying the game with my buds is not really an issue to anyone

[soft egret]

I and bohemia don't care about what you do privately on your own.

[soft egret]

Who even said it was?
Sure if you want to do that, then do that.

[upbeat tinsel]

well if i post me wearing a titanfall helmat in arma 3 will i get in trouble for it on this discord?

[crimson ingot]

yes

[dusty nimbus]

If you didn’t get permission from the devs

[crimson ingot]

you as in yourself or ur ingame counterpart?

[upbeat tinsel]

ingame

[crimson ingot]

then yes

[soft egret]

Ripping content is illegal. Redistributing stolen content is illegal, posting any stolen content here is not allowed.
But playing with a mod that contains stolen content, we don't care if you do it privately.

[upbeat tinsel]

but how would you tell

how would you know

[soft egret]

Posting screenshots of illegal content is not allowed here, same on forums

[upbeat tinsel]

i know

but how do you verify?

[dusty nimbus]

That a mod uses stolen content?

[soft egret]

Using human eyes

[dusty nimbus]

Exactly

[upbeat tinsel]

well what if its based off a helmat in titanfall and looks alot alike

[dusty nimbus]

It’s as simple as comparing two models

[upbeat tinsel]

but

its not just one helmat

in titanfall

you would have to find which one and compare it

but if i remade it

and didnt use the og model what would happen

[soft egret]

If it looks ripped to moderators, we will tell you to stop posting it here and delete your post

Yes, if your content looks 90+% like something that was ripped from a game, we will remove it even if we don't have 100% proof.

[dusty nimbus]

If it’s not ripped and devs are cool with you recreating their stuff then it’s fine

[crimson ingot]

keyword here is recreating not ripping

[dusty nimbus]

Exactly

[weary star]

or if ripping, with the IP owner consent or sub-licensing, right?

[upbeat tinsel]

well yeah i know that but mods cant really verify its ripped at all even if it looks alike so i was just wondering how they would handle it

[dusty nimbus]

If you have consent then it’s not really ripping

[upbeat tinsel]

i mean it very much is

its just allowed

[dusty nimbus]

Determining if something is ripped is pretty easy

As easy as looking at one or two details

[upbeat tinsel]

that could have just been copied over though

IFA3 got done for it

a while back

[dusty nimbus]

If any part of the mod is ripped then BI has the right to take it down

Even small things

[upbeat tinsel]

i know

i never said they didnt

its there game

that i care about

cause it fun

[weary star]

or maybe, should take it down but allowing the mod creator to remove those ripped assets for reupload

[upbeat tinsel]

what

[faint nacelle]

buut if whole mod is made out of ripped stuff..

[dusty nimbus]

That’s literally what happened to MLO

[weary star]

or changing with new assets made from scratch

[dusty nimbus]

They had G3s ripped from battlefield

Removed them

And could upload it to the workshop

(If I remember correctly)

[upbeat tinsel]

alot of mods that you know have stolen assets most of the time they just down scale the models so you cant really verify it as features of the model get hidden alot more

still remember IFA3

so sad

[dusty nimbus]

Not really

[upbeat tinsel]

well

[dusty nimbus]

Comparing texture files is a thing

[upbeat tinsel]

well

comparing what in the texture files