ip_rights_violations

[gleaming fable]

Traditionally yes, it's like the classic trope of someone saying "I didn't sell them the drugs, the drugs were free, I sold them a 20$ ziplock baggie, which is not illegal. So I can only be charged with drug posession, not sales, because no drugs were sold.

Spoiler Alert: The drugs were sold

[chilly silo]

TBH given how badly "server monetisation" has been abused, personally i'd rather it be ended. Or that addon makers are allowed to sell their own stuff. I have spent a lot of time chasing down people selling my own addons ripped by lifers and milsimers alike.

[gleaming fable]

You are allowed to sell intellectual property that you own, they are just also free to ban you if you break their rules.

[soft egret]

I think ending the program would just make the infringements people be even more overwhelmed
Offering a proper way for people and having them do stuff correctly.
vs the only way being to try to hide it and do it illegally

But it might be a good time to make a exception for mod makers, if mod is running on monetization approved server, they can make money from it/be paid for it?

[gleaming fable]

eh, it's one of those things, It's not hard to hide at all. It's not like anyone is magically alerted whenever any digital data is sold. The cases you hear about are the idiots who can't even manage to keep it private

[chilly silo]

Well given how many servers are using ripped content or selling access to mods there seems to be little or no benefit to the Monetisation system right now.

[gleaming fable]

It's kind of a situation where they want to have their cake and eat it too.

On one hand, they want to create a platform for people to create things in, with server software freely available to anyone who owns the game
On the other, they are trying to exert some control, such as not allowing monetization.

These positions are inherently incongruent, and result in the mess you see today.

it's a "Pick 1" scenario

[chilly silo]

And the current monetisation system is supposed to do that?

Its serving no one right now.

[gleaming fable]

If you try to pick both, the results will be crappy

[soft egret]

Well yes, there are lots of servers that are doing it the proper way with approval and permission

[gleaming fable]

It's also possible and even likely that the no-monetization clause isn't even legal in some jurisdictions. Just because you write something in a TOS/EULA doesn't mean it's magically law that applies to everyone.

[soft egret]

The most permission requests I received, were because they were applying for approval at bohemia and they told them they need permission.
Otherwise less than 10% of the people would've even thought about asking

[chilly silo]

They are the minority. And you know Anzus kept getting approved after years of abusing the system. There are plenty more that are doing the same just don't have the high profile so most arent aware.

[soft egret]

Well true.
I assume that the bohemia people would do what they should and properly check servers instead of waving them through. Without proper checking its indeed useless yes

[gleaming fable]

That's why you see blanket terms in many policies that say something to the effect of "Except when permitted by law"

Such as this in the discord TOS

""Our services might also provide you with access to other people’s content. You may not use this content without that person’s consent, or as allowed by law. ""

The "or as allowed by law" means that I am actually allowed to use other people's content as allowed by law such as fair use as one example.

[soft egret]

Well thats all good.
But bohemia won't take you to court anyway, they'll just shut off your server if you violate then EULA

[gleaming fable]

They don't have to put the "or as allowed by law" in order for me to have the right to use content for fair use. The law gives me that right whether they say so or not.

[chilly silo]

"Fair Use" is the single most miss used and miss understood thing in the universe.

[gleaming fable]

that was one example

But yes, fair use is allowed by law.

[chilly silo]

It is not a right that allows you to use a product or mod in contravention to a EULA

[gleaming fable]

correct, never said it was.

[chilly silo]

How do you think Fair use applies in this instance?

[gleaming fable]

I don't. If you read my posts, you will understand that fair use was an example that I used, to describe verbage that is frequently used in terms of service to let you know that they can't prevent you from doing things that you are legally allowed to do.

The idea in this case, is that in some jurisdiction somewhere, there could be a law saying that nobody has the right to stop you from selling intellectual property that you own. And if this is true somewhere, then the "no monetization" clause isn't even valid in that jurisdiction.

tl;dr just because something is written in a TOS/EULA doesn't make it magically valid.

[chilly silo]

Ok then "Fair use" is not the correct 'verbage' to use.

[gleaming fable]

Again, that was one tangential example.

Please re-read my posts if you are not clear on what I meant (you are not clear on what I meant)

[chilly silo]

legal obligation or contractual obligations is a more legally accurate phrase

and does not try to invoke a caveat in law to give a possible defence when using material without authorisation.

[chilly silo]

I have re-read your posts. I don't think you really understand what "Fair Use" really is in law.

[gleaming fable]

You are stuck on the fair use example lol. The fair use example was in relation to discord terms of use. Which would be clear if you properly read that instead of jumping to conclusions.

[chilly silo]

When using something with a EULA you are contractually obliged to follow its terms.
"Fair use" caveats are setting terms on for a possible defence for breaking copyright. it simply does not apply in your example.

[chilly silo]

Again, "Fair use" as a legal term does not apply

[gleaming fable]

Still stuck on fair use.

I don't know how more clear I can make it for you.

I was not using fair use as an example in the monetization of arma, it was an example used regarding another TOS by an unrelated service

[chilly silo]

If you are trying to claim is "reasonable" to use something not in accordance with the EULA etc or the Monestisation rules then maybe

[chilly silo]

This

You claim it is fair use.

[gleaming fable]

"They" being discord. thats the example. Read better

[chilly silo]

This is what im stuck on

[gleaming fable]

clearly.

I'm working on another example you can handle

[chilly silo]

No need to be rude. Either be polite or dont reply

[gleaming fable]

Here's another example that I think you can handle.

Lets say I go to a rock climbing gym. And to enter I have to sign a waiver saying that I won't hold them responsible for injuries I might encounter there. This waiver is a legal contract between me and the rock climbing gym.

And then I climb, and it turns out that they never inspected the rope, which was worn thin. The rope breaks and I get injured. They try to claim that I can't hold them liable. But it is well established that you cannot have people sign away their protection from gross negligence.

In other words. Just because they wrote "you won't hold us responsible" in the contract, That doesn't mean it's valid. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So if I live in a place that has a law or precedent saying something to the effect of "nobody can prevent you from selling things you created" then the "no monetization" clause in Arma's TOS is not valid in my jurisdiction and does not apply to me.

And to be clear, the rock climbing gym example does not have a direct equivelant to the arma3 terms of service.

it is an example that writing things in a TOS/EULA/Contract doesn't make them magically valid

[chilly silo]

So a contractual obligation. One where you assume that the equipment and facilities they provide is of a safe and reasonable standard etc. Fine.

But that is not the same as Selling someone's addons.
Regional variations in law not with standing, International copyright convention states the IP is controlled in the region of the creator. Not the user.

[gleaming fable]

I am talking about a scenario in which you sell IP that you created. Never did I mention selling other people's IP.

[chilly silo]

bare with me i'm not finished

Now you do have caveats in EU law that mean US law cannot be inflicted on users resident in the EU and Vice versa.
So if my EULA says you may not sell my content, may not make derivatives etc. Being a UK resident, not EU or US law can override that.
So a 3rd party server selling my addons without my permission is always going to be illegal.

Agreed?

We are talking about someone monetising a Server by using "my addons" as incentives for people to come and play. Correct?

[gleaming fable]

Nope. Never mentioned that.

Again. I am talking about a scenario where you are selling IP that you created.

[chilly silo]

Thats what the entire servermonetisation debate is about

[gleaming fable]

Nice. I was making a different, but related point.

[chilly silo]

My addons are my IP

[gleaming fable]

yep.

[chilly silo]

And the conversation you crashed was about Server Monetisation

[gleaming fable]

Yep, I posted a different but related (to the tos) point.

[chilly silo]

I objected to the idea that any abuse of the Monetisation rules maybe considered "Fair Use" in some regions. We then went down the fair use rabbit hole, came out in a climbing gym then landed on contractual obligations, and I'm not trying to get back to the actual topic and get some clarity on the actual issue.

[chilly silo]

So you went off on what you saw as a related tangent, Ok can we focus on the actual issue without resorting to off topic examples. it will be easier for everyone else to follow

(There are a few people watching this judging from my DMs)

[gleaming fable]

If you read my posts, you would understand that at no point was I saying that anything fair use was directly related to the arma3 monetization issue.

I said 5 times that the "fair use" was only an example of "Things written into other terms of service" that isn't magically valid because they say so.

[chilly silo]

So not actually related in any practical terms to the actual topic.

[gleaming fable]

Correct. I just said that it's a different point, but related to the TOS in general. The correct thing to do is to just not reply if it's not the thing you want to reply to. Rather than assuming, despite being directly told 5 times that an example was an example.

This is a chatroom on the internet you know. Just because someone says something doesn't mean they are saying it's directly related to a specific conversation in a public chat room.

This is like Luke from the wan show talking about when he was younger and playing runescape, he would respond to anyone with a speech bubble, thinking they must be talking to him directly.

[chilly silo]

I mean if you actually read what Dedmen and I were talking about. Specifically the abuse of the server monetisation im not sure how the tangent applies.

But going back to something you saying about it possibly not being legal. Well its their platform/Service so they are allowed to set terms and limits. legally - contract law here is the important part - they can set any terms they like providing they dont impact an individual's legal rights. And agreeing to EULA governed by specific regional law is legal. Check the Steam Agreement.

[chilly silo]

Yeah i know but typically most people do kinda stay with the topic being discussed or wait to start another.

[gleaming fable]

Contract law still doesn’t let you bypass other laws.

They can’t put in the terms of service that you owe them a pint of blood every 2 years.

And if someone lives in a jurisdiction with a law or legal precedent that says people can’t stop you from selling your IP. then that part of the contract just doesn’t apply to you. Because it would be unlawful in your jurisdiction.

Just like trying to get someone to sign away their protection from gross negligence is also not a legal thing.

[chilly silo]

Anyway this isnt really IP related now. And I'm being asked to join an MP game with my mates.
@soft egret hopeully we will see a change to the enforcement on the Monetisation side of things.

[chilly silo]

But the terms of the EULA and Monetisation rules are NOT impacting your local rights. And by agreeing to the EULA (which you did when you installed the game etc) you are agreeing to forgoe your local rights and abide by the terms set out in the Steam and BI EULAs governed bny their respective regions.

its how the digital world works unfortunately and it is legal.

[gleaming fable]

the local court that you would have to sue me in would not agree that I can "forgo these rights" Just as they wouldn't agree that the rock climbing gym wasn't responsible

thats the point lol

[chilly silo]

Then you are breaching the EULA you agreed to and free to stop using the game. You local right will never overide the Creator's rights. Sorry, my mates are waiting.

[gleaming fable]

It would not be a breach, because the person monetizing their IP is doing so in a location where they cannot be prevented from doing so.

and that is the law you would have to sue them under.

For example, if they say that I owe them a pint of blood every 2 years. and I don't give it to them. I am not in breach of contract, because that clause is simply null and void to begin with.

[chilly silo]

Its obvious you don't have any real experience in any legal issues.

[gleaming fable]

I've been sued and won. And sued people and won.

[chilly silo]

it means that BI and any other IP holders have the reight to deny service and seek compensation.

[chilly silo]

Out of morbid curiosity what country are you in then?

[gleaming fable]

Yeah and the 9th district court or local jurisdiction that they would have to sue me in, would say I'm gucci.

They are free to sue me in whatever country they are from. I'm free to ignore it as long as I don't plan on traveling there. And I don't like traveling anywhere

[chilly silo]

Again, which country are you from? I'm curious

[gleaming fable]

the 9th district court is in the US.

[chilly silo]

Yes it is... but it also deals with Guam and other US federal regions that all adhere to international copyright conventions etc

[gleaming fable]

That is the location I am located in. The whole thing was an example to begin with. which is why I said "if someone lived in a jurisdiction where...."

[chilly silo]

I'm well aquainted with US copyright and contract law and I have yet to see any ruling as you describe in the context of the discussion we have had.

Anyway my friends are starting without me.

[gleaming fable]

It is well established legal precedent that you can't put things into a contract and enforce it, if it's not legal

[chilly silo]

Have fun. I really dont believe it works how you think it does. But please feel free to link the case law if you can find it. i would be fascinated to read it. The 9th district court does publish its findings I believe.

[gleaming fable]

such as the blood example, bohemia could write into the EULA that I owe them a pint of blood every 2 years. If I didn't do that, They could take the position that I am in breach of contract.

They could sue me in their country, or more realistically they would sue me in mine. Once in court. the court would say that you can't write a blood saccrifice into contract and have it be valid. and that I am not actually in violation / breaching the contract.

The end result is that I might be banned from the game. But I was never in violation, and nobody can make me pay "damages" (the blood, or the cost of a pint of blood) in my country (or any other) for the pint I never gave them.

That is how it would actually unfold. This is the "Extreme example" that just because something is in a TOS doesn't mean it's valid.

[chilly silo]

But they arent are they. They wrote a EULA that meets and follows all the legal requirement for a business operating on the internet, using Steam as a platform that also invokes similar legal frameworks that limits the legal terms and services as defined in their local regions. For Valve/Steam its Washington State. BI its the Czech republic, but both comply with international copyright and contract law. So your suggestion re the blood thing is patently ridiculous. It would not be legal, but the contract/EULA we all agreed to, to be able to play Arma is perfectly legal.

If its not feel free to sue BI for infracting your rights. I would love to see the result. As I would love to see the case law that supports your previous claims.

[gleaming fable]

...no they aren't. that was just the "extreme example" of my point, which is that just because something is written into a TOS/EULA/Other Contract does not mean it's valid.

My example and initial point still stand true. if someone lives in a jurisdiction where there is a law, or established legal precedent that you can't be prohibited from selling your IP. The "no monetization" clause would be null and void for them. Just like the extreme blood example, just like the rock climbing gym example. Nothing more, nothing less.

[chilly silo]

The "no monetization" clause would be null and void for them.
The entire thing here is that the terms laid out in the EULA are perfectly legal and allowed for my International law. if they weren't no contract for any service used anywhere in the world would stand.

If BI were trying to dictate something illegal in their terms I would agree with you. But they are not. There is plenty of precedent for their licence. In fact Apple, Youtube, Microsoft, Toyota, Tata, Airbus, Boeing, BAES etc all of these big transnationals that depend on licences that dictate that any disputes are governed by their own local laws would not be able to do business.

Bottom line is BI's legal teams aren't stupid, they are following a well established model and are not setting terms that are illegal or unreasonable.

(Ive already died twice writing this - going back ill check back in a few hours)

[onyx iron]

Man this is a really great tangent to go onto how fragile global agreements/"contracts" are.

[soft egret]

If we get internal discussions about it I'll sure embed myself into them 😄
There were enforcement issues on A3, but we fixed them. Now its just up to some people to just decide yes/no and throw the hammer.
Why they are seemingly not doing that in many cases I don't know, maybe its some politics involved.... Always these pesky politics getting in the way

[soft egret]

It might not be a breach of law and BI couldn't sue you over it, but they wouldn't anyway.
Bohemia doesn't need to care, you are in breach of their EULA, for their freely downloadable software (server), so they'll just shut you down and close the lid. No matter if your local law gives you some exemption or whatever.

[chilly silo]

They aren't fragile at all that the point. They have been tested repeatedly in courts at various levels.

[gleaming fable]

Right, they could ban you if you want. But you made your money selling your IP, doing nothing wrong. Which is my point.

[soft egret]

I never mentioned anything about selling IP.
I'm talking about monetized servers

Ah you say "the person monetizing their IP"
Well in this case its Bohemia's IP

[gleaming fable]

The message you replied to, and the scenario I am talking about, is one where someone creates IP, perhaps in the form of a paid mod, and sells it.

""It would not be a breach, because the person monetizing their IP is doing so in a location where they cannot be prevented from doing so."" (the message you replied to)

[chilly silo]

Which is not the scenerio we have or was the one we were talking about.

[gleaming fable]

We've been over this.

[chilly silo]

Yes... and its still not the one we were actually talking about.

And your scenario would also not be valid as the BI eula says you cannot make commercial models without their authorisation. So also doesn't apply.

[orchid stump]

Where can I report a discord server sharing stolen mods?

[heavy moon]

You should report that to the mod authors and let them deal with it as it is their IP.

[orchid stump]

What if A3 models are involved?

[vivid wave]

Hmm, what exactly is the situation? If it is most likely the mail is the solution

[orchid stump]

Where can I find the mail address?

[vivid wave]

[e-mail]

[orchid stump]

Thanks

[left patrol]

This mod contains illegal content from the TFL Mod series within as well as content from LB - Studios that has been repacked and modified without the expressed permission of the owner.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2921131392

[elfin heron]

This isn't reporting channel, send to mod authors whose content it infringes upon
cc @runic wraith

[chilly silo]

0.....

[earnest mirage]

1.....

[muted grove]

2.....

[faint nacelle]

[chilly silo]

I have no idea what happened there.

[stiff jasper]

FFR should CDLC rips be reported to BI or the CDLC devs? not sure who handles the legal stuff in such cases

[manic laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-road-to-el-dorado-both-both-is-good-gif-8304204

I'd say BI a bit more

[stiff jasper]

aye capitaine

[royal charm]

Does anyone know anything specifically about music/audio IP? I've always thought it'd be cool to put in a script on my server to play songs from vehicle speakers. As long as it's not monetized, is there any problem with just slapping in a "Thunderstruck" mp3 into my mission file and having it play via script during my groups missions?

[echo orchid]

@royal charmnope

[stiff jasper]

short version - you can't, it falls under distribution as you put that music file in your mission and everyone playing downloads it, not to mention that anyone streaming/recording that mission will have problems when it comes to publishing that recording: some bands will tolerate and/or throw the not-warning in YT description but in case of ACDC they will either claim the video or c&d it

[lapis quiver]

Who ripped CDLC stuff ?

[stiff jasper]

some Russian dude, I believe BI is now taking care of him

[lapis quiver]

Crazy, whats the matter of ripping cdlc stuff ?

[stiff jasper]

I think people do not really understand the idea of compat data mods and/or they "just need a part" of CDLC and start emptying out its content

[lapis quiver]

Hm interesting, if i still would be a ripper i would never rip cdlc stuff

[rustic copper]

As PuFu already said it's not allowed due to copyright, although I have to say we (= community) do sometimes add music into our missions (private!) for fun once in a while. However we do tell everyone beforehand because we a lot of people streaming and don't want people to get into problems with Twitch/Youtube for streaming copyrighted materials (so they can disable music volume in the Arma settings).

But again; it's not allowed, and I certainly wouldn't add it in missions shared to the public.

[somber frost]

What if you add some Beethoven tunes

[rustic copper]

Depends if the performer (orchestra and conductor) is still alive 😉

[royal charm]

Sad 😦

[rustic copper]

Trust me, getting a letter from a lawyer and a €20k bill is no fun for adding 20 seconds of copyrighted music in a game...

[somber frost]

Imagine copyright Beethoven 😂

People do be out there preforming someone else’s song and trying to take credit

[rustic copper]

In this case it's not the music that falls under copyright, but the recording 😉
So unless you play it yourself (or pay for a license) it's still a no-go

[royal charm]

Oh I bet 😅

[faint nacelle]

there is all kinds of free music that can be used too.

[muted grove]

Royalty free music works too, no?

[manic laurel]

I believe this is what is implied
"free music with usage permission"

[faint nacelle]

yeh

[royal charm]

@soft egret FYI, got confirmation from BI that non-monetary sponsorships in the form of getting discounted server costs still require being on the monetized list - so guess we won't be accepting any sponsorships 🥹

[paper prawn]

Oh, that sucks... not that anyone would give me a discount anyway...

What about mods that get a discount on their build server for example, or who provide ads on their forums. Cause it would sort of suck if that wasn't allowed

[somber frost]

What happens when the laws of 2 countries clash in relation to IP. Piracy is now legal in Belarus so if someone there was to make a mod featuring COD assets or rip a cdlc, how would the owner of the assets deal with them?

[molten kraken]

Look for it to be removed by the hosting platform if said platform is not in a piracy legalised country.

That's how it's been done for bigger things than a mod

[slender zephyr]

Iirc the laws of country where the thing was licensed are used.

[echo orchid]

#other_ip_topics

[rich fox]

bros moderating yesterdays messages, little bit late pal😭

[gleaming fable]

You can't really. This is mostly a "shit out of luck" situation. You can issue DMCA requests if the content is hosted on servers in a country that complies. Otherwise there is no real remedy, You can file a lawsuit against them in your own country, They would not show up. You would win a default judgement but then you would have absolutely no way to begin collecting it from the foreign national(s) you are suing.

You could try to sue them in their own country, and while this might be inconveniant for them. If the country literally allows piracy, they would likely win the case, because the lawsuit is in their country, under their law.

In a situation like this. TBH, I would go for some....less conventional methods and tactics.

[somber frost]

I mean, i would rather not physically harm someone because they stole some 1’s and 0’s to claim as their own😂

[gleaming fable]

jesus christ I'm not talking about hurting anyone lol

[manic laurel]

5h between the two messages
bro commenting a little bit late pal

[gleaming fable]

But the whole "Im in a 3rd world country, can't touch me!" thing cuts both ways. Just like it would be virtually impossible for you to sue / report them to any authorities. the same would be true in reverse, They would have essentially nobody to report you to if they desired to report you to someone for some reason. They couldn't sue you and have anything come from it either.

[manic laurel]

but yeah @gleaming fable #other_ip_topics

[rich fox]

bros mad over discord

it was funny

calm down😂

[manic laurel]

I'm calm, just don't spam for no reason

[royal charm]

As far as Bohemia legal explained to me, all discounts require being on the monetized list and part of the monetization plan of the server, as even though they don't involve the exchange of money, they involve a non-monetary exchange (where the "sponsor" loses potential profit, and the "sponsee" saves potential cost).

This of course means that there are probably hundreds of violating servers that haven't been actioned on (yet) for violating this policy, but it's also not clearly written out. The servers/licenses my unit has cost thousands every year, plus we raise a ton for charity and fund various content creators throughout Arma... so getting a sponsored server woulda been nice in just saving everyone money. But we can still go the route of sponsoring for direct money, and just not showing anything sponsored on our server (i.e, we could have them sponsor our Teamspeak/Discord/website, but not the Arma server).

As long as the sponsor gets nothing back from the server though (i.e, no "Sponsored by Hawkins" message, etc), then it sounds like it'd be kosher. But then the pool of interested sponsors dwindles 😆

[paper prawn]

Ah, thanks, that was basically the direction of my question... more on discord/build servers, etc. that help fund mod development but outside of the scope of an actual ARMA server

[pliant oar]

note for those who just discussing conspiracy stuff elsewhere (e.g. why workshop item got blurred or removed) i suggest you remove hateful symbols from screenshots , preview pictures / videos
also if such mod is related to some novel or tv/movie or historical it's best to note it in public description of the item, because in case of legal troubles, the context is what matter in eye of law

[lapis quiver]

@carmine folio

[lapis quiver]

Btw how would that work out if i am in a country that allows those symbols as the law sees Games as Art ?

[manic laurel]

Steam operates under the US Law I believe, therefore it is the authority (I think)
also I think it is in their EULA and if so, whatever the law says, you can't skip the parts you don't like if you agree to a EULA

[elfin heron]

you also are at the whims of whoever has workshop moderation and their rules -- and i doubt BI want their game associated with swastikas etc

just common sense really

[gleaming fable]

You are under the jurisdiction of the country you are currently physically located in. Steam operates under US law, It just comes down to what steam says is allowable

Like for example if I was in saudi arabia it would be a crime if I said that the saudi arabian government was corrupt and full of fools. But since I'm here in the US I have not committed any crimes by saying that. they just have to cope.

[crimson ingot]

but they can block your game from getting bought in said country

[swift pine]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917209899
I can't check ATM, but i see at least RHS ACU retexture on video. Chesk also his mods with z
https://youtu.be/yMrF5X2k2kQ?t=114

[gleaming fable]

sure, that's their problem though.

[manic laurel]

@echo orchid

[gleaming fable]

Like for example if I made a game that gets banned in saudi arabia, they can try to block it.

And when I get around that block and sell it to more people in their country, they just have to block me again, and again, and again, and again. At no point in time am I violating any laws in the US.

[echo orchid]

cheers

[magic sand]

In a case like the one above, with the ACU retexture, obviously the shared files (on Steam / Google drive) can be DCMA'd, but can the video also be removed for showing content that breaks the mod license or is the issue files being shared? Would it be different if it was modified BI / CLDC assets in a video instead of mod assets? Always wondered about that since there are so many videos out there and streamers may or may not be aware of where the assets their unit uses come from.

[elfin heron]

ive seen a handful of mods ban it appearing in youtube videos however to the success of which i am unsure

[echo orchid]

video can be removed yes

[magic sand]

One issue would seem to be proving the video actually shows the asset in question, since the actual file isn't available for inspect/comparison in game or otherwise.

If someone is redistributing your models or distributing retextures of your content that seems more straightforward, but if it's only a video of your assets / non-permitted rextures then that seems to be entering into the area of free use, as long as they never share the files.

[paper prawn]

Is using a PR image for ARMA 3 Helicopters as the image for a DZSA mod a violation? 🤔 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2511336746

[elfin heron]

technically but bi likely couldnt care less

[paper prawn]

Probably. Funnily, that helicopter isn't even in the mod - and their server side pbo available on github is obfuscated so who knows what it might do on the server

[echo orchid]

what got into you bruh? who is the bruh you are addressing to?

[rustic copper]

I don't think using a weird screenshot is the worst part of that mod...
They actually sell it the "full" version: https://sibnic.info/price.html

[paper prawn]

Yeah, true but BI have known that for quite some time

[jovial crown]

Ok I was wrong

[lapis quiver]

Yeah i just asked for somebody else

[lapis quiver]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2532994080&searchtext=the+defector

This Mission uses Intro Videos and Voicelines of Call of Duty Black Ops. Thats a big NO NO since there was a cod2 campaign mod that used only cod 2 voicelines too and got taken down.

[elfin heron]

ok, report to email

[lapis quiver]

alright

[fluid surge]

Would a mod about the United States Colonial Marines (From the Aliens franchise) be an IP Violation?

[fluid surge]

My main reason for asking is if I don't find a Unit that already exists for this, I'd like to make my own

[crimson ingot]

anything from pop culture you need permission from the ip owner if you want to recreate it in arma

[fluid surge]

I haven't recreated anything but the mods I'm using, the owner reached out to 20th century Fox and asked permission, and said they'd remove the mods if it was IP infringement

This was at least 4 years ago, and the mods are still up, so I'm assuming it's fair game

[crimson ingot]

just because no answer is given doesn't mean it's a greenlight

[fluid surge]

It's more of I haven't been told if there was an answer or not but the mods are still there

And the creator said if they found it to be infringement (4 years ago) they'd remove the mods

[echo orchid]

wrong assumption really. They simply didn't get to it, or are unaware of said mod existance. One does not change the other. Feel free to check Steam User Agreement for what you attest on upload.

[echo orchid]

again, wrong assumption to start with

[fluid surge]

Yeah, either way, they're not my mods and the creator did say they've reached out

[echo orchid]

to answer your original question - yes, it is an IP violation, feel free to get written permission from the IP owner

[fluid surge]

Okay gotcha. That's all I wanted to know.

[echo orchid]

👍

[fluid surge]

There's nothing I can do about it being an IP Violation but at least I know it is

[echo orchid]

there are certain IP owners that do have some blank statements in relation to what can be used as a lore.

especially considering the non-commercial aspect of modding. That being said, not sure if 20th CF has such a license, but is unlikely

[fluid surge]

The creator is actually in this server, he posted about reaching out to 20th CF in #other_ip_topics.

I've asked him if he ever got a response but I'm not sure if he's even active anymore. This was 2 years ago lmao.

[plain rivet]

https://www.gofundme.com/f/kings-developments-stalker-mutants So, uh. Is updating mod for $ not allowed?

Pretty sure it isn't

But, I want to be 100%

[elfin heron]

If it's a donation it's allowed

Meaning the donator gets 0 in return

[atomic edge]

I think it's OK because it's a donation but I'm not sure

[vivid wave]

What KJW said. Donation is okay, if noone receives a reward

Donation = ok, paywall = no no, big no

[faint nacelle]

I think it's been said crowdfunding mod project is OK as long as nothing made in Arma or Arma tools is sold or paywalled and the mod produces is free. Best would be to as BI legal straight though

[spice yacht]

^ I remember a discussion last year about a similar situation

[ebon jewel]

7 grand is hefty 😱

[delicate hamlet]

same thought 😅

[ocean cloud]

👋 Hi everyone,

It has been recommended to me to join this Discord to find help dealing with a few people that have been porting a map that I made for ArmA 2 a long time ago into DayZ Standalone and putting it on their Steam Workshops.

One user has cut out a piece of it using reverse-engineering tools and made their own map out of it and the second user is porting the entire map. I've submitted multiple DMCAs on Steam, even with screenshots with secret marks that I made on the map to serve as evidence when someone ports it, in the DMCA, but the user simply sent a bogus Counter-DMCA. 😆 Total disregard for the fact that a DMCA is a federal document signed under oath. 🤷‍♂️ Steam always says, well, that's all we can do for you, if you want to sue them in the USA within 10 days. 🤷‍♂️

To make matters worse, the map uses BIS models from the ArmA 2 community packs. The EULA of those models says that they may not be used in any other games except ArmA.

I've read some forum posts and a lot of addon makers say that they are demotivated by this. I hope that the users' Steam Workshop privileges can be suspended to stop this abuse. 🙁

Thanks 🤠

[soft egret]

Heh hi, I think I just talked about your terrain this morning

Contact the E-Mail in the channel description

Arma 2* btw, not ArmA.
Also the Arma 2 licensed data packs are also available with ADPL, meaning Arma AND DayZ

[crimson ingot]

i was waiting for this.

[ocean cloud]

Thanks a lot, will do. 🙇‍♂️

Let me see if the user is a member of this Discord. 🤔 I bet they're in here asking for your help and then cutting and pasting your stuff on Steam. 😸

[soft egret]

More likely on DayZ or DayZ Modders discord

[plain rivet]

Let’s not have drama start in here

[ocean cloud]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start any drama. 😰 But people should be aware.

[elfin heron]

[...] evidence when someone ports it, in the DMCA, but the user simply sent a bogus Counter-DMCA and airbrushed the marks from the map.
this is a federal crime

[ocean cloud]

I know it's a federal crime. 🤷‍♂️

[elfin heron]

free money there

[ocean cloud]

I don't really want to make a big issue out of this which is why I'm trying to resolve the issue here. 😰

I didn't get into making addons to sue people for federal crimes.

The guy has even admitted to porting the map before sending the counter DMCA. 🤷‍♂️

[muted grove]

If I were you I'd contact a copyright lawyer, and offer them some portion of the inevitable judgement as compensation for working pro bono.

Courts reaaally don't like it when you scrub copyright information

[ocean cloud]

My bad, they didn't scrub the mark off. It's still on the map. 🤷‍♂️

This is crazy. I've never, ever seen anything like this. 😆

[paper prawn]

In order to port and conduct "optimization" of the custom models on the map they are at minimum breaking the original APL license of Origins mod (assuming that the map in question is Taviana 😉

That at least should be something that BI care about, otherwise who'd stop them porting community ARMA 3 assets

[paper prawn]

One amusing thing on the other port is that lots of people say "Martin used Bohemia Tools to create it so can't limit what we do"... While that's assinine, there is also the small matter of an APL license being ARMA only

[soft egret]

Since recently you can get a ADPL version of the licensed data packs.
But there is also the issue, if you port old terrains that used content from the data packs, back when the terrain was made, back when it took elements of the data packs, that data was licensed as APL.

So the files inside the old terrains, are APL, even though you can get the same files as ADPL now.
of course if you try to go to court with that its nonsense, as its still the exact same file. But...

[ocean cloud]

The user has also made threats of sending other users on Steam bogus DMCAs in the past. I have screenshots of everything. 🤷‍♂️

[paper prawn]

I do love how they say no one is allowed to rip the stuff they ripped in the first place 🙂

[steep spire]

just wait until they dmca the original content

[atomic edge]

What happens when they send a counter DMCA?

[elfin heron]

they commit a federal crime and nullify your dmca if you cant be bothered to fight it

[fickle ivy]

assuming they sit in a country that can be bothered with stuff like this

[faint nacelle]

Valve DMCA team can still be contacted on such matters

[gleaming fable]

If they play nasty. You play nasty. Follow the law, but disregard ethics.

be creative.

[gleaming fable]

They won't accept an offer that they know probably will never be fulfilled. Just because you get a judgement, doesn't mean you will ever be able to collect it. Here's how it would likely go

You: "I want to sue someone, I have clear evidence of copyright violations, can this be a pro bono case?"
Lawyer: "Ok, who are we suing?"
You: "Some random guy on the internet who stole my arma3 mod"
Lawyer: "....Ok here are my rates"

[muted grove]

Yeah, except when you start to mention the felony fraud charges, they'll turn right around and offer you all their support, that's going to be a juicy settlement :J

[molten kraken]

So you have money even if the person is not in your country and won't be "taxed" for it?

[ocean cloud]

Thanks for the help everyone, I'll see what Dwarden says when he gets better. As I said before, I'm not looking to get anyone's money, I just want the ports to stop. 🤷‍♂️

It's getting kind of annoying now, to be honest. Making maps really isn't that hard that people need to go to this level. I'm mind blown by this. 🤯

[paper prawn]

If you haven't already, I would still message Dwarden, I believe he is still doing takedowns on the ARMA 3 and DayZ workshops despite the status. Note that he now has permissions to do that - not sure he did when you last had these problems

[ocean cloud]

I feel bad messaging him when he's recovering from an illness. I hope it wasn't anything serious. 😳

[paper prawn]

I hope so to, but it seems like he is reading pings and DMs and at this point he would probably be the only one who could do a takedown. Especially since that guy is running two servers and providing mission files for the map so others can run servers too

[ocean cloud]

Alright, I'll try to message him. 😰

[gleaming fable]

Felony fraud is not a civil matter. You don't get a judgement from felony fraud. The justice for that is that the state locks them up if they are found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is a much higher standard of proof than is required for civil cases.

In other words. The process of a criminal trial is something that only consumes money, taxpayer dollars to be specific. Rather than generating any payouts for people.

And still. Your understanding is flawed about where the money comes from judgements. Lets say you beat me up and seriously injure me. And I incur 10 million dollars in medical bills. I sue you, and I am awarded a judgement in that amount against you.

Am I ever going to get that money from you?

How long will it take you to pay me the 10 million dollars (plus interest) that you now owe me?

The money comes from you

It's not like the government writes me a check for the 10 million, they don't owe me any money, you do in this scenario.

[muted grove]

I'm very well aware of how it works, and in the case of DMCA fraud, yes you get a monetary judgement for that, in this case probably 3x statutory damages, i.e 90k+, mostly because you'll tack on various copyright violations, but the fact that you can easily prove fraud will just make it so much easier to extract a worthwhile settlement. And yes, it's then down to getting the money from the defendant, which you can do in a number of different ways, easiest of which is probably garnishing wages.

[gleaming fable]

That is peanuts lol. Lawyers don't take cases where they get paid 85$ dollars a month over the next 75+ years (assuming the person lives that long)

Just because you get a judgement, doesn't mean you are getting anywhere close to that amount, anytime soon. Lawyers like getting paid.

And no, based on the things you said, You do not understand how it works.

There's a limit to how much you can garnish. And if they are stealing arma3 mods, they probably don't have that great of a job. or many assets of their own you could go after.

The really appealing pro-bono cases are ones where big companies accidentally harm you in some way, because they actually have big dollars you can go after. Disney can write you a check for 10,000,000 in one shot and it's not even a rounding error for them.

[crimson ingot]

what happen if we dont pay it?

[gleaming fable]

a court ordered judgement or restitution fines (technically a penalty imposed by the state, not a judgement in this sense)? then you are in violation of a court order, which is a crime, and you are subject to arrest

at least in sensible countries

[crimson ingot]

say we got those warrant in the us but we are living outside of any us jurisdiction (other country)

[gleaming fable]

In terms of collecting money, it matters where the money is, not where you are physically located, if it's somewhere with some amount of judicial cooperation or control, then money can usually be siezed.

[manic laurel]

I would say it goes a tad away from the topic though, let's try and get closer a bit - we won't (re)define the whole legal system here 😉

[hallow lark]

IP questions for those with better brains than I. Turbosquid offers many models as Editorial Uses Only, but they offer Select Enhanced License options. Those options offer what they call Assignable model rights. Am I correct in assuming assignable model rights means I would have the authority to then publish works to workshop using those assets?

[manic laurel]

never assume; ask them

[hallow lark]

That's why I asked here.

[manic laurel]

them
we're not Turbosquid 😁

[hallow lark]

I knew as soon as I used the word assume I was going to get a Ass out of you and me in return. 😛

[coral torrent]

Have a look at the license text/descriptions and it will tell you exactly what you can and can not do. Turbosquid has some very custom licenses, so its hard to tell in general. If you have a link I can skim them though and potentially answer

[hallow lark]

I'm emailing to ask, but this is the base license information.
https://blog.turbosquid.com/turbosquid-3d-model-license/#Editorial-Usage

Just answered my own question. Assignable rights just means I can transfer the rights to use the model to another entity, voiding my own rights, but under the original license terms. So still editorial use only.

Yes, when you transfer the model (as outlined in the 3D Model License), the transferee enjoys the same protections of the license that was originally purchased.```

[coral torrent]

And "Editorial Uses" does not allow usage as part of a free mod as you are not producing editorial content.

[faint nacelle]

I've heard that many makers in those platforms don't quite know even what the licensing means so you may want to contact the seller for options.

But yes editorial is useless in Arma context

[hallow lark]

Some artists have assets on one under "Editorial Use" while offering it on another as something different. Contacting each author is the best option.

[south egret]

Yeah, it's often best to just ask. Most modelers are happy to help and get a new customer

[faint nacelle]

If I remember right using real world names and logos also restricts model to be sold only as editorial (for news, article, books etc purposes where the real thing is depicted and talked about)

[hallow lark]

Does that not stand for military nomenclature such as M1A2?

[echo orchid]

it doesn't

[uneven roost]

please, i'd like info as i've been hearing about this for a long time (preferably an answer from someone from BI as it hits the nail on this coffin for once)

i've had many discussions with a friend about the use of activision cod assets for mods in arma, his defense is that activision sent an email to someone making a SFM animation with their assets saying its ok to port over, and therefore its free to be used by any modder for any game as long as its free.

afaik most of these big companies dont allow the free use of their IP in general and every case is a case, he argues that BI way of handling this is inconsistent and uses the map Lythium as a main argument (apparently all the unique houses in the map have been ported from Syrian Warfare and the official publishment of the map on the workshop never got taken down).

so, how does this work? how does BI judges something as ripped content that infringes IP and needs to be removed from the WS, and i'm not talking about rips from modders, i'm referring to rips from other games (cod, fallout, star wars...).

@pliant oar sorry for the tag, but afaik you're someone that dealth very much with this subject and i feel like i need an official answer to be able to provide a definitive answer when these kinds of discussions show up

[soft egret]

"and therefore its free to be used by any modder for any game as long as its free."
Even if the permission has been given as you say, that means Activision gave permission to one person for one purpose.
That doesn't automatically mean every person can use it for anything.

If someone wants to ask Activision, and get a written letter signed by them (probably their legal dept) that anyone can rip their games content and port it to Arma mods.
Then someone should do that, and show it to us. If there is legally valid permission, we'll accept it.

But as for now, all the content is ripped/stolen out of the game with no sign of permission.

[uneven roost]

exactly, thats my point, but then comes arguments of "why arent the GMOD mods with ripped assets being taken down from their ws, why is BI so annoying with this matter"

its a debate that has X and Y "but if/why" counter arguments

and in general i just really would like an official statement that "this is it, and unless there's X and Y that says its fine, its not fine"

[soft egret]

"but why" Simple. Copyright.

"But he doesn't care if his car got stolen"
Well ok, doesn't mean I don't care.
"Well he is fine with driving a stolen car"
Well ok, doesn't mean I'm fine with doing the same.

If there is no permission, its plainly illegal.
And if you want to ask "why do they not allow illegal things" then.. uh.. I don't know how to answer that

If someone offers me to drive their car, I'll be happy.
If someone offers me to drive the car they've just stolen, I'll tell them to F off and call the police.

"why arent the GMOD mods with ripped assets being taken down from their ws, why is BI so annoying with this matter"
insert any country or company doing bad stuff here

"Why can Korea launch nuclear missiles into the ocean but I can't, why is my government so annoying with this matter"
yeah uh. Someone else not caring that you do something illegal, doesn't mean its fine to do something illegal.

"My friend and I scam elderly people for their money. He is fine with it, so the police not being fine with it is clearly unfair and the police needs to change"

Its always the same kinda arguments. Its F'ing illegal, thats why.
The "But he is doing it too, so why can't I" argument is just nonsense.

If you want to port stuff, get permission. If you have permission everything is fine and dandy. But people don't. The question to ask is, why don't people just get permission and do things properly and legally.

[pliant oar]

you need to have legally verifiable approval to use someone else IP , to upload at any workshop (doesn't matter if it's STEAM, Nexus, ModDB/Mod.io or ours) or that IP must be yours (ownership and authorship)

you can't rely on guess work / hear say , because then if someone report such item it creates uncertainty against such content or worse it turns to be reason for takedown

[uneven roost]

what are examples of a legally verifiable approval for the IP use? just for the sake of examples

[pliant oar]

the chain IP theft is problem seen for decades ... e.g. someone was ripping content from our games (ours and our community) for certain game total conversion, it got C&D take down , so the group in question started to donate that ripped 'content' to all mods at that game, trying to get everyone involved and banned , on purpose

[pliant oar]

e.g. legal papers (anything what would hold in court / against or for IP lawyer to start with)
e.g. verified public announcement of the IP owners (e.g. not some non-existent forums w/o any public archives documenting it)
e.g. license which allows usage or share or similar and can be verified as granted by the author(s) of content in question
etc.

[uneven roost]

thank you very much, this was really helpful in general

[pliant oar]

take in mind, that random public approval / appraise by itself doesn't mean IP rights permit

[soft egret]

I'd say the Microsoft license thing regarding HALO would be a good example?

[pliant oar]

seen that part decade ago on ModDB, mods were made and published from certain TV serie ... got appraise by actors and the public relations with marketing of the company, then later it hit media, which appraised the mod being better than games using licensed IP

[pliant oar]

and you can guess what happened next, one of the investors / IP owners read the article, gave it to theirs IP lawyers and the mods were take-down by C&D because no IP approval was granted to them

[pliant oar]

even if there is partial or vague approval, allowing modding, it usually has 'fineprint text' which covers only 'specific game, platform, engine, franchise use' under the brand / IP owner control

those chained / binding 'blank' approvals are the worst cause it confuses many reading it (typical example 'free IP assets' on >insert game store or by-grant made< (with 'fineprint' caveat)

we're quite tolerant in such cases tho ... but can't rule out possible takedown if it becomes larger issue

it's not much about the blame or fault, it's more about the issue of "oh someone uploads this content w/o rights, so i can too" causing cascade effect, similar to transition of ripped content between multiple >projects<

[manic laurel]

bottom line: while some IPs may tolerate permissionless usage, having a strong, direct and personal "yes" is always the safest course of action 🙂

[pliant oar]

we had case where , other game developer confirmed they gave approval of theirs game assets to be used on our workshop(s)

then it turned out, those assets they have, they bought from asset stores, authors and are under 'limited license' only for theirs title

hence they aren't allowed to grant such usage of theirs assets in first place and the original IP owners of those assets, can claim takedown on our workshop(s) anyway

so if you think, you already have headache from just ^ ... then imagine ours (especially mine 😁 )

[pliant oar]

and same goes the other way, about the strong NO, if some IP owner clearly told publicly or privately to the mod maker that they do not approve of theirs assets to be used, no amount 'good intent' survive the IP laws

[faint nacelle]

in the case of Halo IP, using models (ripping) from any of the games is also still a nono, but they do allow self made models from the universe be used elsewhere (non commercially)

[paper prawn]

Talking of hard noes, I note that the one Taviana rip that was uploaded on DayZ's Steam Workshop is gone now too 🙂

[gleaming fable]

Yeah it's really just a scale. Microsoft's community content guidelines is one example. In a situation like that it would just come down to the interpretation of things.

The only actual "proof" that matters in the end, is when a court makes a ruling on who was right and who was wrong. Anything before that is really just comes down to the positions/opinions of the various parties.

They will usually use words like "rules" or "guidelines" so it's not even a real license. They still reserve all the rights. So you might be making some community content that is in-line with their guidelines. And they can still tell you to stop for whatever reason. You have no "proof" you can counter with in this scenario.

Like if you are involved in a fair use dispute, "fair use" is not proof of anything, it's an affirmative defense. You have to go to court and make your argument that your content was fair use. And if the judge/jury agrees. Then it means that it always fair use and you were completely in the right the whole time, and the other side was just wrong and needed to cope harder. If the judge / jury doesn't agree. It means that it was never fair use, and you were wrong about it being fair use the whole time.

Same applies with other types of IP disputes.

And if you are never taken to court, then you don't need "proof" of anything to begin with.

Like the classic scenario of youtubers copyright striking each other's videos with no intention of taking anyone to court. Side A says that Side B is wrong. They will get the video taken down temporarily. And if Side B says "no I'm still right" then the video will go back up. There's no "proof" that can stop this back and forth process from either side, it will just play out until the point where they don't have the balls to take people to court and find out who is right.

fucking around without finding out if you will.

[sharp void]

Kinda but no. If you submit a take down for a YouTube video it's a legal takedown request and when you counter it, it is the same. If you falsify information on either side (submitting or countering) it's the same (as far as I'm aware) as if you filed a false DMCA.

[sharp void]

I mean that applies to most things. To take it to an extreme, if you kill someone but never get caught you never have to prove you didn't kill someone lol

[gleaming fable]

You can submit takedown requests without comitting crimes though. You can genuinely believe that something is not fair use, and in fact it is. Someone who files a claim in this scenario isn't comitting any violations of anything.

I never said that people aren't assholes, or willing to commit crimes by filing knowingly false claims. I'm just saying that there is no "proof" at this level that matters.

You can submit "This video violates my rights" and it will be taken down just the same as if you sent them 50 pages of data and caselaw reviewed by attourneys. And likewise, the video will go back up whether the other side says "no im right" or they submit 50 pages of their own legal analysis.

[sharp void]

Except you can't.
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6005900

A takedown request isn't the same as reporting a video.

[manic laurel]

you can report, but you cannot DMCA

[gleaming fable]

yes, technically true but my point still stands. There is no actual "proof" that matters at this level. You can submit a takedown either knowing it to be true or knowing it to be false. And the video will be taken down whether you send them irrefutable proof, or a three word statement.

And likewise, the video will go back up when and if the other side says "no im right" either knowing it to be true or knowing it to not be true. whether they send irrefutable proof, or the 3 word statement.

There is no special "proof" either side can present at this level that can stop this back and forth process. And that is a fact.

The level that "proof" actually comes into play, and can "do things" is when you are in court.

[sharp void]

There is...if someone counters and they can't prove that the content is theirs (or falls under fair use) it stays down. It's not a never-ending cycle of counter-counter-counter-etc.

Likewise if you prove the claim was false the video goes back up.

[gleaming fable]

My understanding was that the video gets taken down. and goes back up if the other side says they are right, and then only once you show youtube that you are filing a lawsuit against the other party does the video stay down. and if not. it goes back up and the claim is over.

Youtube isn't in the business of litigating these claims

[manic laurel]

anyway, I don't think that we are to discuss and theorise how what and where rights apply on X or Y platform etc
this channel is about IP rights violations (hence its name) where we can discuss them and help & inform people about them

it is convoluted enough so let's keep it at that

[gleaming fable]

Yeah I would need to see a legit source that youtube actually does some kind of arbitration to make a decision as to who's claim is right or wrong, rather than just complying with the law by taking them down initially on request

[manic laurel]

we… don't care here 😃
BI or other obvious IP rights violations = #ip_rights_violations
IP rights questions & others = #other_ip_topics

the rest is offtopic 😉

[sharp void]

Could we have an "offtopic-ip-topics" lol?

was a joke

[manic laurel]

offtoIPc

[sharp void]

ha

[manic laurel]

I will laugh while banning you don't worry
(jokes aside, don't worry 😆)

[sharp void]

Valkyrie: Message will self destruct in 3...2..1...boom

[storm cliff]

This isn't technically about an IP rights violation but this seems to be the only IP-related channel. I know some mod authors have concerns regarding the steam workshop and the rights and licenses they are going to be giving Valve by uploading content to the workshop (e.g. (https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/183435-rhs-escalation-afrf-and-usaf/?p=2859383) ). In the 'workshop' part of the ToS, Valve requires some very reasonable and fair rights. However, there's also the more general (and, I'd assume, older) part of the ToS that covers all the content you upload to Valve's services and there they request a whole array of rights and licenses (which are fine to give away for screenshots and comments, but not so great for complex work like mods). Even if you're optimistic and interpret these sections as only applying to the non-workshop uploads, there is still the workshop-related issue of "being selected for distribution with the game" which doesn't actually specify whether or not you have any choice and whether or not this even applies outside of games like e.g. TF2 and Dota2.

Would it be possible for somebody from BI to ask their contacts at Valve for some clarification as to what rights and licenses we're really granting Valve by uploading mods to the workshop?

[cobalt creek]

To clear things up for me: When uploading to Steam Workshop -> You give them the IP rights?

[storm cliff]

There's no such thing as "the" IP rights. But you definitively grant them some rights which they need to actually provide the service. I.e. if you didn't give them the right to distirbute your content to other people, the workshop would be pointless

[cobalt creek]

+Isn't that covered by the APL-SA (Content created with A3 Tools -> Must stay within Arma and can't be used somewhere else)

[storm cliff]

Nope, that's a completely different issue. Actually, two different issues. APL-SA is a licenses that some mods use. The A3-tools thing is part of the A3 tools ToS. Those are two very different concepts.

[cobalt creek]

kk

I just remembered, that i had that topic with RHS a few month ago.

[storm cliff]

My question can mostly be translated to "Hey Valve, could you please clarify whether the rights and restrictions detailed in section 2.F, 2.G and 6.D are meant to apply to workshop content, too?"
(+ maybe a second question, "Hey Valve, does that 'selected for distribution' stuff apply to A3?"

[echo orchid]

@storm cliff - since you linked to one of my own comments:

1. Valve is not just another mirror - while i agree that their are simply covering their arse with that EULA just in case (i would do the same), sharing IP rights with it for some is simply not gonna happen

i had my lawyer look over that EULA, and while no one actually thinks they are out there to scheme you out of your IP rights and make a buck on mod's behalf, their would be well within their rights

2. because Valve is more than a mirror, in order to upload stuff there, you actually need to own these rights. Which is understandable.

[cobalt creek]

So basicly, if they rly want to take you models/Textures -> They can use it for something else?

[echo orchid]

acording to EULA, you "share" all your IP rights with them

[cobalt creek]

hm, interesting.

[echo orchid]

which means, once uploaded, even if you take it down

they have the same IP rights as everyone else who actually worked on it

that's the reason they also require for the uploader to have some sort of Property rights

I really don't get why BI should get clarification for that, when it is pretty clear in the public EULA

surely, some might say - yeah but i don't care, they won't do that anyways

[cobalt creek]

But what if.

[echo orchid]

and that is a lot easier to do when there is a single lad or a couple doing it

for things that have 10-30 people who have worked on a single mod

in order to upload anything, EVERYONE would need to agree to share their IP rights with Valve

if a single person from the 30s who made any sort of contributiondoesn't agree, from a legal standpoint you are not allowed to upload anything on SW

so it isn't even about what ifs here

[stoic ice]

• the IP rights of external contributors

[echo orchid]

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/
Section 6A
"You grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive, right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation and promotion of the Steam site."

@stoic ice - yes, if you have them. Also, even if you don't, for long time mods there are people who are no reachable. Agains popular belief - the silence actually means NO, it doesn't means "yeah ok, just do it"

[stoic ice]

It doesn't even have to be that. What about things like BI stuff in mods? It's not exactly yours to give.

[echo orchid]

also:
D. Representations and Warranties

You represent and warrant to us that you have sufficient rights in all User Generated Content to grant Valve and other affected parties the licenses described under A. and B. above or in any license terms specific to the applicable Workshop-Enabled App or Workshop page. This includes, without limitation, any kind of intellectual property rights or other proprietary or personal rights affected by or included in the User Generated Content. In particular, with respect to Workshop Contributions, you represent and warrant that the Workshop Contribution was originally created by you (or, with respect to a Workshop Contribution to which others contributed besides you, by you and the other contributors, and in such case that you have the right to submit such Workshop Contribution on behalf of those other contributors).

@stoic ice - yeah see above.

[cobalt creek]

So if you use BIS Stuff in there (doesn't matter if Texture or model) -> You are not allowed to upload Content.

[echo orchid]

those are the 2 paragraphs that everyone should read when asking about SW, but no one does...It is as clear as it can be if you ask me

@cobalt creek - unless you got written permission from BI that states otherwise

[cobalt creek]

Yeah, i don't think this will happen

[echo orchid]

because neither BI licenses available grant you IP rights for their original content

[cobalt creek]

Would be dumb if

[echo orchid]

@cobalt creek i actually think BI would actually do that, for the purpose of SW

[cobalt creek]

SW?

[echo orchid]

steam workshop

[stoic ice]

@echo orchid They wouldn't be implementing it if they had a problem with their own content being uploaded there.

[cobalt creek]

Ah, brainfart.

[echo orchid]

exactly

but they haven't got out with a formal statement on the subject either

[stoic ice]

Yep, hence why I mentioned it earlier. :P

[echo orchid]

saying - listen lads, you can do that, we actually want you to do it

yeah some shit is simply tolerated

but legally speaking, you are still in the shitter

[stoic ice]

But if push comes to shove, it's much better to have something that backs you up rather than relying on the "tolerance".

Yep.

[storm cliff]

Thanks for chiming in PuFu. I totally agree with the issues you've raised, however there's additional language in the agreement that seems to indicate that Valve doesn't actually want these rights:
"Notwithstanding the license described in Section 6.A., Valve will only have the right to modify or create derivative works from your Workshop Contribution in the following cases: (a) Valve may make modifications necessary to make your Contribution compatible with Steam and the Workshop functionality or user interface, and (b) Valve or the applicable developer may make modifications to Workshop Contributions that are accepted for in-Application distribution as it deems necessary or desirable to enhance gameplay."

Their agreement is simply a confusing mess, maybe if BI prod them a bit, they can be motivated to clean it up.

[echo orchid]

I am pretty sure that Valve's is aware of what it requires from Community made Content that is uploaded here. From a legal standpoint, doubt they will ever remove those clauses described in 6A. I wouldn't either, even if i would have a similar service that would be a lot smaller than valve's. So that is understandable

What i am trying to say is that even though i personally am not affraid that Valve would go as far as take CMC and use that commercially

[storm cliff]

Yeah, but they specifically don't ask for the 6.A rights for workshop contributions. (The whole 'notwithstanding' bit). I'm obviously not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice but I think the matter isn't quite as clear-cut horrible as you make it out to be. It's fairly horrible, just not quite as horrible ;)

[cobalt creek]

Wich, how it seems, they are not allowed to by their own tos oO

[echo orchid]

a. i don't wanna share my IP rights without a good reason with anyone, especially if there are alternatives.
b. and most importantly, there are times when i simply CAN'T share my IPs with Valve, because there is a 3rd party that doesn't want to, or is unreachab

[cobalt creek]

by the quoted part of Alexander

[echo orchid]

i don't get why you think BI would have any weight in this. this EULA is for the entire SW, not only for BI's part

which is just a fraction

so again, i doubt anyone is actually affraid that Steam and Valve of all places will steal their free time work

[storm cliff]

Yeah, I agree that getting rights from other contributors is a bigger problem. I assume getting permission from BI should be trivial if a large enough portion of the modding community said "Hey, we'd be on SW if only BI gave us written consent".
The harder part is getting it from old members - which is why I highly recommend mandatory contributor agreements for any group that's putting significant work into their mods.

[echo orchid]

@storm cliff - if you want me to be picky, 6A lists the following righst: use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, and the (notwithstanding) part forgets to mention reproduce, and also mentioned that they can make ANY modification that is deemed necesary or desirable to enhance gameplay - so they prefer vague and non-quatifiable criteria

[storm cliff]

@echo orchid I agree, there's just too much 'wiggle room' for Valve in the agreement. The fact that they allow you to really 'remove' stuff, including them loosing permissions (which is very very uncommon in the industry) seems to show that at least somebody was going for a 'modder friendly' agreement but it seems like it somehow ended up being a confusing and somewhat vague mess.

[stoic ice]

In the end, they're describing their service. Imagine if someone sued THEM because they repacked the addons on their back end to reduce the filesize or something.

[echo orchid]

@storm cliff -regarding external contributors and old members - mandatory contributor agreements, really? I wouldn't fucking sign such a thing on my own tbh. So you put your free time out there, and you need to sign some form of contract/agreement allowing the group you contributed to do whatever they want with your original content and IP rights? ahhh nope

[storm cliff]

@stoic ice Oh, I'm sure that this is all just "Cover-Your-A**" stuff from Valve, but it's done in a way that makes the agreement very vague and somewhat unhelpful

[echo orchid]

@stoic ice - precisely, they need to cover their expensive asses

@storm cliff - in order to have your ass covered, it needs to be vague enough so it can work no matter of the situation

in the end, it all comes down to a single thing: if you trust valve enough to share your IP rights with them, and if you do, if you have everyone's else permission to share it with them

and as it seems there are people who do it on a daily basis and use SW

[storm cliff]

@echo orchid Contributor agreements fairly standard thing for 'real life'projects, especially open-source stuff. For example in my community we picked 4 people (since we don't have a handy foundation/etc to use a legal entity) and then everybody grants them some very farsweeping rights. Is it a lot of trust? Yes, but these people already have the technical ability to steal all your work (try proving a ported vehicle is your port and not somebody elses equivalent port) so giving them the legal ability to do so wasn't much more trust.

[echo orchid]

there are a bunch that don't, and agains the "users obvious beneficial", they use DMCAs almist daily to take their own contend down from others who can't read an EULA and use SW as convenient mirror

@storm cliff - for RL projects, yes, i know, i've done it myself many times, but i was being payed to do so.
For ArmA stuff and especially content that really does have a pretty high commercial value, i would never do it

[storm cliff]

Yeah, I can totally see that somebody who spent dozens of hours modelling something, especially when it's from-scratch and therefore perfectly applicable outside the VR engine environment, it's hard to then 'donate' all that work.

[stoic ice]

@echo orchid I really don't give a damn about my own IP rights in regards to Arma stuff and I don't exactly depend on third party input, so to me it's quite irrelevant.

[echo orchid]

i never ported stuff, i always work from scratch.

[stoic ice]

But I appreciate that there are people who aren't in the same position.

[storm cliff]

It's a shame that BI isn't doing more on monetized modding. I'm not to keen on a Skyrim-style fiasco but there are modding teams out there that produce work that is good enough that they could easily be approached for e.g. an official DLC

[stoic ice]

It already happened in A2.

[storm cliff]

Toadie is doing something really cool with his patreon (pay me to make stuff and I'll give it (APL-SA) to the community in return) but that's a very niche thing

@stoic ice Really? I didn't know that, that's cool - which DLC(s)?

[stoic ice]

ACR

[echo orchid]

@stoic ice - i can understand that myself. I obviously do it for my own enjoyment. That said, i would care a lot less if there was a way to make sure the commercial value can't be used whatsoever, which isn't the case. If i choose to do so for free, then it should remain that way. And because i am well aware of the existing way to unlock everything, i do mind

[stoic ice]

@echo orchid Yeah, models and textures can be reused quite easily and applied to a lot of products. SQF...not really. :P

[echo orchid]

i don't even wanna touch the commercial versus the student and non-commercial licenses for the software out there

@storm cliff - BI doesn't wanna go for DLC approach for obvious legal issues

they do hire and pay a lot of community member per project though

a lot might be an overstatement

for the patreon thing toadie is doing - that is great from my own POV, but as you said, it is niche

and if you come to think of it and look over the patreon, people who don't create content but videos using content someone else did, have a higher patron monthly income

than the ones that do create the content, which i have always found weird as fuck

[storm cliff]

Yeah, I guess for BI there's two concerns. One is that most mods are "dirty" and contain lots of third-party stuff. You rarely get a large mod team that doesn't have at least some licensing skeletons in their closet. The second is that virtually nobody is making mods that fit with the whole 2035 theme and even if they did "DLC-ify" one of those nobody would want to buy it xD

Yeah, I love dsl's videos but it's kind of weird how he gets paid more to edit video game videos than people get paid to make video game content in the first place ^^

[echo orchid]

i don't wanna put names here either way

[storm cliff]

It's one of the main problems with patreon: It snowballs quite hard, in the sense that people are either unsuccessful or REALLY successfuly, there's hardly room for lots of medium-successful stuff

[echo orchid]

anyways, kind of OT for this particular channel;

[stoic ice]

@echo orchid It's always easier to sell/appreciate something you can see than what you can't. Being in the web dev business, people will always put on pedestal the ones who made visual design, but the programming and achitecture behind it goes unnoticed.

[storm cliff]

Ooops

[echo orchid]

@stoic ice - yeah i am aware, i am in the design bussines :)

[stoic ice]

shakes fist in the air

[echo orchid]

web design is not my bread and butterthough, and i used programmers just a couple of times

[storm cliff]

@echo orchid: Do you think that, assuming BI clarifies their stance and grants the necessary permissions to their stuff, RHS will ever go SW?

(Considering some optimistic future where SW becomes the dominant way to mod A3, maybe because sixnetworks shuts down)

[echo orchid]

@storm cliff - nope, because of old members that are unreachable (had this issue with MANW participation when we had to pull some content out) and active members that have a hate for SW

[storm cliff]

Thanks, I guess that makes sense.

[echo orchid]

sixnetwork is something i never used since it early A2

we provide easy to use updaters, that require 2 clicks

alex has planned to make a pretty UI for those just as well

we don't use mirrors, we handle all the traffic by ourselves

it is fast, reliable and instantenious. i don't get why is not use elsewhere as well

especially since it is an automated process that goes from repro to build to deliverable

[storm cliff]

I think PwS is mostly about ease-of-use. It gives communities the kind of control they need (i.e. everybody has the same mods, same version,etc) yet it's not quite as complicated to operate as A3Sync.

[mental kettle]

Swifty is the future of community updaters ;)

[echo orchid]

can we move to #general_chat_arma

[storm cliff]

I looked at that but ran into an issue. Can't recall what exactly because I tested a dozen or so PwS alternatives.

Yes, good call @echo orchid

[south trail]

Currently there is a server, Un life that is monetised and charging people to get a base, weapons and uniforms in the server

Was told to come in here to tell you guys

[elfin heron]

report to the email in the channel topic if they do not have permission

"Un life" -- I presume this means not an Arma life server, which regardless does not matter

[spice yacht]

If they arent on this list then file a report like KJW mentioned

https://www.bohemia.net/monetization/approved/arma3

[south trail]

Yeah it’s an arma life server

[south trail]

It’s not on arma 3 it’s reforger how would I file the report?

[elfin heron]

same process

[spice yacht]

My mistake, it never crossed my mind people are already milking reforger 😅

[south trail]

Yeah these guys are charging milsims more than usual server rental just to get their uniform and a couple buildings in a server

[paper prawn]

Doesn't matter whether they are on the monetization list - being on that list you still cannot charge money for anything that gives you an advantage in game like getting a base or weapons

[elfin heron]

Where does unauthorised mod monetisation get reported to? [e-mail]?

[faint nacelle]

theres contact button in the monetization page linked above

I think that goes to right people

[molten kraken]

How do you know something is authorised to be monetised and something is not? Is there an official list?

[plain rivet]

There should be an actual list somewhere

I think

[earnest mirage]

Here

[cedar flint]

ok?

[elfin heron]

Same people handle server & mods?

[faint nacelle]

thats my assumption at least. The infringement email likely will reach correct people too

[languid pelican]

Hey folks, I have been working on a mod to retexture the Reforger base game uniforms. I should have asked this before I started, but is that ok? I initially read a post that said it was fine, then I saw another that said it was tolerated. So I just want to confirm that is ok as long as I am not ripping the models?

I am working on my own models. I just retextured base game models to spend time learning workbench and have something to use for now as I figure out how to structure my modpack.

[languid pelican]

https://reforger.armaplatform.com/workshop/5CC49801607BCA12-101stMilSimUniforms this is the mod I am referring to.

[marble coyote]

Re-uploading mods without permission
RwG Basebuilding, Extended Base mod, KA weapons, Ryanzombies etc
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2924942496

[elfin heron]

Report to mod authors this isn't a reporting channel

[uneven pasture]

why do u do this now man

you made your own shadow company mod

is it because you are annoyed it got dmcad?

so you do this out of spite? you said yourself to me that you hated these kinds of people

[uneven pasture]

why is seige a involved?

[uneven pasture]

its not a series it was one mod pack that a unit released to the public, it has been updated a few times but it is not a series

[elfin heron]

kindly keep useless comments to yourself

[uneven pasture]

kindly keep your lack of fulfillment of your life to yourself instead of trying to takedown mods by people who are just trying to enjoy a game

[elfin heron]

curb your ripping defending

[crimson ingot]

Defending a ripp eh? not a wise move.

[plain rivet]

You can do both. Enjoy the game and obey the law

[uneven pasture]

no, what will you do about it?

[uneven pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/fedora-tip-gif-7203606

[crimson ingot]

it's obvious that you are a troll here, no need to progress discussion further.

[uneven pasture]

im not a troll, just cant stand some of yall losers

[plain rivet]

Awww, is the ripper salty? Lol

[crimson ingot]

can't even have a decent talk without throwing insult, shameful.

[uneven pasture]

that aint shameful

[carmine folio]

ripping is cringe and talentless 😦

[lapis quiver]

Not true. Ripping needs the same procedure as everything else exept model making.

Ripping is bad yes. But i cant stand people who shit on on the workflow of it since its still work and sometimes more work than importing A2 Stuff

[crimson ingot]

ripping is ripping, nothing fancy about it

[echo orchid]

i’ll help you with that

!mute 617279509888106498 14d - this sort of behavior is not tolerated around heres next step is ban - read #rules

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @uneven pasture!! Ò_Ó

[stiff jasper]

if you want to report that stuff, contact either CUP or RHS, posting in this channel doesn't mean anything tbh as it's for discussing IP, not reporting violations

[eager ravine]

🍿

yet again this channel proves to be one of the most entertaining in the discord

[gleaming fable]

You can come here any day of the year and find the exact same conversation going on

[latent mesa]

Q: certain mods have converted Dayz stuff to A3. Is that allowed, didnt investigate. What is the stance of BI in this matter? Some buildings would fit nicely to my map 😉

[ember berry]

If that is from the DayZ Mod Licensed Data Pack (https://www.bohemia.net/community/licenses/licensed-data-packages), it is under ADPL-SA and is therefore allowed to be used in any Arma game with the appropriate license. If it is from DayZ:SA, no data packs have been released for it and are therefore not allowed to be ported.

[paper prawn]

It isn't. Those are Chernarus Plus map assets that have not been released or permitted for ARMA 3. DayZ Mod LDP only has assets from a very old version of ARMA 2's DayZ Mod, no terrain assets or anything else from DZSA

IceBreakr tweeted pics of the C+ school and apartment building. The only DZSA map assets permitted are those released as part of Enoch. That's one reason Ben created school and apartment building models for use in CUP's Chernarus 2020 map

[cinder ridge]

I've got a reupload of my mod I'd like to take care of, having told the reuploader to remove my things and him not following through I reported it to steam, since thats been a while (2-3 weeks) and its still up I thought I'd better file a DMCA, yet I can't, the button wont work anymore.
I'm assuming that is because I reported it previously, now my question is, is there any way for me to take care of said reupload seeing that the report/dmca button wont work for me :/

[echo orchid]

https://steamcommunity.com/dmca/create/
use this

[cinder ridge]

Ah perfect, thank you very much!

[swift pine]

Dana Howitzer has been ripped from the Iron Curtain DLC. Author confirms (literally) said it`s was piraced
https://youtu.be/aziuioBoINw

[elfin heron]

Send to email in channel topic, this isn't a reporting channel

[distant pollen]

I reported a violation, how long should I wait to expect a response?

[plain rivet]

When you receive a response

[faint nacelle]

they might not always respond to a report either.

[soft egret]

If you don't ask for a response, they may not respond

[stark tartan]

If I was creating a mod, say for example called "Arma 3: The Great Salami War"

Is it enough to have in the disclaimer/legal of the mod the following

Arma 3 and Armed Assault are trademarks and copyright of Bohemia Interactive.

"The Great Salami War" is a personal project by Bob which is a modification of the original Arma 3 game.

Is this ok, or do I need to add anything else?

Is there a template or anything to use? Thanks

[vivid wave]

I only aware the rule for YouTube, I do not think Workshop items have anything to follow besides the EULAs

[soft egret]

Don't know why you'd mention "Armed Assault" though if you're making it for Arma
Don't think I've ever seen a Arma mod add such disclaimer

[vivid wave]

This too

I've just checked in WIPO but Armed Assault is still active it seems, BTW

[ember berry]

Not sure how it relates to Arma 3, though. Since only Arma: Armed Assault is a thing

[stark tartan]

I thought ArmA is Armed Assault - its a recursive acronym

[soft egret]

Ah. Well no it isn't

[gleaming fable]

enough for what? What are you trying to protect from?

[steady hatch]

i understand your a bit schizophrenic but you cant just act like this in other servers man

[paper prawn]

As Dedmen said, it isn't and is explained in this DevBlog post https://www.bohemia.net/blog/arma-2-the-name-tale

[steady hatch]

I got pinged in here?

[faint nacelle]

something that got deleted

[candid bison]

It's not now, but it was once.
Popular belief is that ArmA is simply an acronym of Armed Assault. It's in fact true as that is how the name really started with the release of Arma : Armed Assault in Europe.
also you could find it capitalized as "ArmA 2" on the official ARMA 2 site.

so you could argue it's been retconned.

[vivid wave]

Apparently A2 era has some confusion at Bohemians end. Yet it is safe to say it is now consistent to have lower case a in A3 era

AFAIK there was a lot of ArmA 2 mentions in game too

[paper prawn]

Or all upper case 😉

[carmine folio]

ARmA

[compact vector]

ArmA came from those of us who couldn’t wait for the English version and went Czech 1.0 🙂

[soft egret]

That also says ARMA, not ArmA
But concerning Arma 3 and Armed Assault are trademarks and copyright of Bohemia Interactive. which was the original thing.
"Armed Assault" was the sub-name of one early game in the series. If you are playing Arma 3, you don't need to note about some trademark of a game you aren't playing, because you're probably not intending to use that in your content anyway

[stiff jasper]

akshully it says AʀᴍA

[compact vector]

no it doesnt it says ArmA but in diff case 🙂

this is where in Teamspeak arma came from and in some countries pronounced Arm Hay for some strange reason

[south trail]

It’s actually an acronym A.R.M.A

Army
Rifle
Machine Gun
Army

[faint nacelle]

Alrighto so any further offtopic spam will get deleted and warnings issued. If you want to continue tihs topic you can use #offtopic_arma

[uneven pasture]

cant yall just let the workshop exist

like it does for gmod etc

[vivid wave]

Steam Workshop exists. Rules exist. Is it too hard to understand?

[manic laurel]

@uneven pasture wrong channel, move away (e.g #discord_server to ask about #rules and eventually why we apply laws in here)

[echo orchid]

!mute 617279509888106498 2d - this is the 2nd strike and the last warning - gmod is filled with ripped and stolen stuff, including from bi games and its mods.

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @uneven pasture!! Ò_Ó
Silvagni#0001 now has 2 infractions.

[gleaming fable]

...This is one small channel in one server. Or in other words, the vast majority of arma players and content creators are not in here by the numbers. You are kind of just pissing into the wind. People who make things can exercise their rights to not have their stuff copied. You just have to find a way to come to terms with them. If you want to avoid them, then go lurk in the shadows or something. But either way, it seems like it's probably not healthy for you to be in here.

it's not going to accomplish anything in other words

[vivid wave]

The words ain't going to reach to the user... since the mute is valid yet

Going to expire in a few hours, though

[gleaming fable]

oh well

[manic laurel]

well he can still read, just not participate

[vivid wave]

I mean, the ping

[gleaming fable]

Not to worry, The guy has an unhealthy relationship with this channel. He'll be back

[vivid wave]

...Wait, I thought mute role disallows the one to read too

[manic laurel]

nay, iirc ^^

[nimble nest]

I come to you to go up a server which modified the map of tanoa I let you see live https://www.twitch.tv/darkhatostv https://top-serveurs.net/arma3/madera-life-ouverture-21-avril-2023

Tanoa modified 😡

[vivid wave]

Wait, is this the entire Tanoa?

[nimble nest]

No, they have modified the whole map, watch the live

French life roleplay Madera life

[vivid wave]

Please try not to ping Bohemians just to get attention

They eventually will read what you wonder

[nimble nest]

no problem thank you excuse me

[vivid wave]

I can slightly understand if they want to add one, but sink those islands? It is weird decision...

[nimble nest]

after I know that it is forbidden to do this to modify the main maps

[ember berry]

Report it to [e-mail]

[jovial sable]

@vivid wave Being a French player, if I can answer your question these so that there is more crossing

[stiff jasper]

l*fe server developers trying not to steal any asset they ever stumble on (impossible)

[jovial sable]

I think who did it for that

[nimble nest]

watch the live it speaks for itself I'm not going to write an e-mail to you to watch now

[manic laurel]

"I want to report but I don't want to report"

it's the weekend, too, and I don't think they will still stream on Monday

[nimble nest]

I'm bringing you the video evidence, guys, don't abuse it

[stiff jasper]

this channel is not for reports, you do that through writing an email.

[manic laurel]

you want to report here, we tell you where and how to report, you decide not to

it's protocol, to help keeping track of it

[jovial sable]

By the way, little question if you can answer it, how long the support takes to answer, I created a ticket on Monday but no news

[vivid wave]

Last Monday you mean?

[jovial sable]

Yes Monday 17

had one of my mods deleted but the reason is unclear

"incompatible"

[vivid wave]

Your?

[jovial sable]

Yes

[faint nacelle]

mod for which game? and what did it contain?

question like that can take a while to answer as it has to first reach the person who does that stuff

[jovial sable]

arma 3, cloth

Ah ok thanks man

[faint nacelle]

was it something you had made yourself or taken from somewhere?

it is possible that something gets deleted by acciident but usually it is case of deleting ripped/stolen assets

[jovial sable]

I agree, most of the things on my workshop are things that I found like many other people but I don't understand why this mod and not the others

[faint nacelle]

most likely you have used something forbidden then

it is not really wise to "put random stuff from internet" into mods

you are responsible for what you put in there

at worst you lose rights to publish anything

[jovial sable]

I agree with you, I am responsible for what I publish but the reason is quite vague why this mod and not another or even the whole lol

But well too bad

[faint nacelle]

if you have another one with sketchy content you can always report it to the email above and flag it in the workshop 😄

it can probably be removed too

[jovial sable]

No thank you aha, I agree and I assume that i model very little and that most of my mods come from stuff I find on the internet, but I love to implement and share things with players who play life server, it makes them happy

I don't have certain skills and I'm not very good at modelisation, but sharing and investing in the things I do is essential

But I also understand the positioning of bohemia in relation to these things

[elfin shuttle]

Is this violation of TOS for Arma by PLA? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/374604233347170314/1099253206019752006/china.mp4

[coral torrent]

Yes and BI is already well ware of it.

[crude quest]

I believe this streamer’s usage of Arma 3 likely violates the Game Content Usage Rules

Grisha is a fairly big streamer who’s somehow affiliated with the IRL Wagner Group

the hammer in that image is a not-so-subtle reference to Wagner’s habit of executing POWs and deserters with sledgehammers, and the pig on the desk is a reference to a racist trope associating Ukrainians with pigs

[elfin heron]

this isnt channel for reports, look in the channel topic

[crude quest]

Ah, ok, sorry

[vivid wave]

This is pretty fine to make a topic to “is this a violation? if so what it could be?” kind of discussion, though

(Note that I'm not a Bohemian but just a community member, I have no rights or whatever official decisions)

[manic laurel]

you are correct 👍

[vivid wave]

I mean my statement doesn't represent the official ones regarded to the legal and such, but anyways

[sharp void]

From what I've read in here and from Rock, I'm sure BI could tell 'em to stop and threaten legal action if they don't since they're using BI IP

[manic laurel]

@hollow rain / @olive chasm you might want to know

[crude quest]

i should also note that Grisha (username GrishaPutin, he mainly streams on VK Play now because he got banned from Twitch) is streaming from Wagner HQ with the explicit endorsement and support of Yevgeny Prigozhin - he's been photographed with him before. i can provide documentation if you want

[queen badge]

Does anyone know if the arma man from the example files is allowed to be used in mods posted on the workshop? The readme in the files seem to say I can, I just want to double check

[soft egret]

For Arma 3 mods, if you're following APL license then yes

[gleaming fable]

lol yeah, china steals everything they can get their hands on

terms of services are kind of null and void for all intents and purposes when the offending party is a country with nuclear weapons doing whatever they want. No kind of enforcement action you can take.

[molten kraken]

What part of streaming the game would be in violation of the rules in this case? Or is it something else than streaming the game that's in violation?

[echo orchid]

you can definitely block some accounts

[echo orchid]

the wagner center part which is private military (putin’s - so state owned)

[gleaming fable]

Except that you can't because we are talking about a nation state actor and they can just have their software engineers crack the game.

They can refine weapons grade uranium, they can definitely crack a game.

[echo orchid]

just saying, there are ways available to BI to limit both users and servers if they really wanted to

[gleaming fable]

And I'm just saying that there's actually not a way they can limit anything. Because they are a nation state actor that is more than capable of cracking the game and bypassing the need for any activation / phoning home.

This is china. This is not your average gamer in a basement somewhere.

[crude quest]

the Content Use Rules contain a rather vague clause about objectionable or hateful content that basically gives Bohemia a lot of discretion to forbid use of their IP in certain ways

Which frankly makes sense - trying to anticipate every way someone can misuse a product is nearly impossible

[soft egret]

I don't think people playing the game violates these rules
Its more like, if you use it to create fake news, or re-enact terrorist attacks or glorify warcrimes or such. Like, stuff that actually does bad and is harmful

[crimson ingot]

That feels like 'Streaming Arma 3 Sponsored by Wagner Group'.

[manic laurel]

regarding your question below @carmine folio, I am not sure where the line stops (posting here as I removed it from #creators_recruiting) Cc @steep mulch

Can I pay someone to send me instructions on how to make very specific config files, scripts, and other assets in the Arma reforger tools myself?

my original answer

No, as it would be making money on (teaching) the tools

maybe writing and providing information on the tools is not covered by EULA, but definitely "guiding through the tools" is - I leave that to this channel's experts. If you have doubts, you can ask @ [e-mail]

[hallow lark]

@gilded mist You dont generally buy the full rights to a 3d model. Depending on the license you get, you generally get the ability to edit yourself and package in secure form for distribution. Distributing raw models to others is not generally an ability given when buying models from 3d warehouses.

[gilded mist]

Thanks for the info I’ll find the model developer and buy the rights for it directly myself got the money to throw around from this wonderful government of mine anyhow

[echo orchid]

@hallow larkcheers ben

[echo orchid]

if you wanna buy exclusive rights for it, expect at least 10-20x the retail price, just a formal heads-up

[gilded mist]

Thank you I appreciate the warning but hey gotta spend money to make money

[echo orchid]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[cinder ridge]

Question regarding the DMCA, may be a stupid one but I'm not quite sure here - if I send a DMCA request and enter all the data required by it, will the offending party receive all of it? In other words, am I doxxing myself over my mod?
In the notice it says "[...] the contents of your complaint including your name and email address may be provided to [...]".
With that I'd expect it to only share the mail and name, nothing else but still want to ask...

[molten kraken]

it's a legal request, I'd hope that the party asking for it gives it's information. Otherwise it would be too easy to play the game of sending DMCA to every competitor in your field, and it would lose it's value.

[cinder ridge]

Yeah that makes sense

[gleaming fable]

Yes they should receive the information.

If someone you trust has a PO box, You can authorize them to send the DCMA request on your behalf.

Just like youtubers hire companies to find ripped content and submit takedown requests on their behalf.

Also wouldn't be surprised if there was a service you can use to submit a one-off request through a 3rd party so as not to expose your information

You will commonly see language like

""A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that you are the copyright owner or are authorized to act on behalf of the copyright owner.""

In short, yes it is possible to send DCMA takedown requests without exposing your name and address as an individual. Which is understandable to not want to have happen.

[cinder ridge]

Hm I see what you mean, though not sure if thats viable each time. I mean so far with all the requests I've sent I never really bothered too much about that topic but it got me wondering, hence my initial question. Will have to see how I proceed, especially considering said individual acknowledges ripping from various authors and not giving a damn, saying they will simply reupload again if it gets taken down. Plus your usual nonsensical "arguments".

[echo orchid]

afaik they get the full info forwarded if they counter claim (at least on steam)

you can use a PO box quite happily

[runic wraith]

From my/our experience, your information filled out in the DMCA is sent directly to the person you are filing against, regardless of whether they counter the claim or not. I'm not sure how much info is sent to them after the claim is made, but it will most certainly give your name and email at the very least.

[echo orchid]

yes, full name and email. not sure about address for instance

[runic wraith]

Yeah its possible the rest isn't given unless they counter, which would make sense, but I don't know that for sure.

[cinder ridge]

Yeah that is about what I expected tbh, I may just ask steam support for a definitive answer. Thanks for all the replies so far.

[pliant oar]

@jolly sand here

[gleaming fable]

Also keep in mind that you are free to just make a new email and submit the claim under that email.

Just like a company acting on your behalf could submit a claim using their own company email addresses rather than the email that is specifically tied to your account.

You can't lie about your name and address if it asks for it though.

As long as you are the IP holder, or authorized to act on their behalf, you can submit a claim from / listing any email address that you lawfully control.

you could create [e-mail] for example rather than your actual personal address

I have one such account that is used for this exact purpose, To submit a claim with as much privacy as possible if needed.

[cinder ridge]

I have a throwaway email which I use for these, thats no the issue. My concerns are purely my actual address/phone number and to a lesser extend name.

[orchid zodiac]

hello can I report an arma discord here that is perpetuating the use of stolen assets and makes screenshots with

[coral torrent]

Please see my pinned comment.

[orchid zodiac]

yes i'm here to discuss before reporting

please let me finish

i had try to speak with the owner of it, he claims he is trying to be within bohemia rules and regulations but that is impossible since he's spreading and promoting stolen assets through artwork, my question is, is there anything that can be done towards this server or no (by bohemia's part)

[coral torrent]

Is the original content from BI or a third party mod author?

[orchid zodiac]

stolen, ripped content from another game

[coral torrent]

Aha! Another game. In that case you should do three things. 1. Report the item on the Workshop if you have its link. 2. Report the discord server for discord TOS violation. 3. Contact the publisher for the game its ripped from and send them what you know. BI will not be involved at all in taking down a Discord server just because its related to Arma 3. That will be up to Discord and probably only go through once the original IP owner DMCA's it. The only thing BI will do is take down violating workshop items if reported properly.

[orchid zodiac]

I see, so instead of emailing [e-mail] just report the discord

thank you for your time

[coral torrent]

That email is for if there is anything BI can do. You can contact them if you have something on the arma 3 steam workshop to report, anything else needs to be handled by the original authors. Hope that helps 🙂

[elfin heron]

Do they not do google drive DMCAs either? Or don't bother as it's out of their jurisdiction so just let mod authors do it instead?

[coral torrent]

DMCA is done by the author of the content. Bi is not the author, the other game developer its ripped from is. So BI is not involved at all

[elfin heron]

ah, makes sense -- ty

[echo orchid]

PSA: This channel is NOT JUST for discussing IP infringements concerning BI, but also other community owned IP content. For discussing IP rights and breach in general, use #other_ip_topics

[nova crag]

So how did icp on arma 3 steam workshop get exempt??? The 40k mod, are all models custom? But the name is clearly warhammer 40k

[nova crag]

/\

[manic laurel]

as opposed to what?

[nova crag]

From what I know that games workshop sues people commonly, and I'm confused as to why the Warhammer 40k mod on the steam workshop for arma 3 is left untouched when it carries the name

As to what I'm confused on is why it's untouched

[manic laurel]

they might not have noticed it, or they tolerate free content made from scratch for other games
email them for more details - I would be curious to know their stance too

there is also the possibility that the team obtained permission from them too

[nova crag]

Thank you lou, I shall send a formal email and read the policy

[faint nacelle]

So far it has seemed that self made warhammer themed mods are fine. I cant remember seeing any mod sued by GW but mods made with stuff ripped from 40K games do get takend down pretty often.

[inland granite]

I know that its been mentioned from TIOW that they got in contact with GW and obtained a few ground rules to not get into trouble, like when it comes to named characters, that's a no as that is solely theirs.
(added screenshot below for reference)

[carmine folio]

Am you legally allowed to set tracks from the st as ringtone if you've bought it off steam

[manic laurel]

are you… legally allowed to set tracks from the <soundtrack?> as ringtone if you bought the OST from Steam?

[carmine folio]

yes

[manic laurel]

it's personal use, I think it is covered :)
read the EULA to confirm but it should be OK I believe

[faint nacelle]

youll be thrown in the the darkest corner of the basement if you visit BI offices and someone calls you.

||(👆 this is a joke) ||

[steep spire]

ayo BI dungeon

[manic laurel]

can't threaten me with a good time, rawr xd

[jovial crown]

i cant make a mod where every time i use the trenching tool in ace, sounds WIND ROSE - Diggy Diggy Hole isnt it?

[manic laurel]

as usual, ask for owner's permission.

[sharp void]

(bit off-topic, sorry Lou)
Good choice of song...should check out the version Clamavi De Profundis did

[manic laurel]

(I have to answer seriously first in this channel ^^')

[jovial crown]

its kinnda weird in music industry since the licence is "shared"? between different owners
but ill try, ill really think that mod worth the effort lol

[sharp void]

Best place to start may be Napalm Records. At the very least they may be able to point you to the right place

[gleaming fable]

This is one of those "You are able to" things

[lean falcon]

So what if there is a group out there that requires people to pay via Patreon to "unlock" access to in-game items in their community?

Is there an admin or something that can help get that shut down?

Cause people are kinda getting taken advantage of.

[faint nacelle]

you can report them to the email in the topic of the channel.

I'll just delete that link so they dont get any undeserved attention

[lean falcon]

Sounds good.

@faint nacelle Sent everything via email.

[distant pollen]

So, if a workshop user has a https://www.bohemia.net/community/licenses/arma-public-license-share-alike on their work

I can download their works from the steam workshop, open and unpack their belongings, and reuse/modify/update all of their works, as long as I follow the same license, correct?

[queen badge]

Yes, and credit the original author in the way that they desire

[rustic copper]

Except additional licences may apply, and Valve requires that you are the owner of the content you upload... And the license does not give you ownership.

[faint nacelle]

not all of theri work. for example P3Ds are not openable and you have no permission to do anything on them

except config retexture but there you dont need the to reupload to the mod anyway

so in the end there is very little that can actually be done

in essence the best way on original authors point and user point of view is to make a patch mod that uses data from mod 1 as requirement instead of repacking same stuff over and over again

[nova crag]

is it okay for me to use a cc attribute licensed 3d model as long as I credit the creator?

[manic laurel]

ask the creator
read the CC you want
check both are compatible

[iron vessel]

Am I allowed to extract some 3d models from ArmA whilst removing the textures and simplifying the model (reducing the poly count) to distribute them on the workshop?

if that is not, can I use them as a reference and manually remodel it using let's say, blender?

[elfin heron]

recreating the model face by face or w/e is still a violation

[faint nacelle]

no and no

[iron vessel]

damn, so I can't vaguely remodel a neophron

that's unfortunate

[faint nacelle]

from pictures sure, using the models =

do something original = 👍

[iron vessel]

but how do you recognize something that is based off a picture and something that is just the base model ripped off with a decimate modifier applied on blender lol

[iron vessel]

what I'm doing has to represent arma aircraft, that's the point

[steep spire]

pick a few real life aircraft and frankenstein them together

[faint nacelle]

why?

[iron vessel]

models for tacview

[faint nacelle]

and your questions are borderlining the stuff we ban for

[iron vessel]

how?

[faint nacelle]

when youre told no, you dont do that, you dont ask, but how about I little bit do that

[iron vessel]

I'm just asking, I'm not threatening to do it

[faint nacelle]

its not a negotiation

[iron vessel]

the reason I am asking in the first place is to know if what i'm looking to do is possible by any legal mean

could you answer to this question please?

[faint nacelle]

you take picture of it in game from top and side and make couple of cubes that fit the silhouette

no

if you persist on that path youll get the boot

[iron vessel]

...what?

[faint nacelle]

you dont need to know how things like that get recognized

since you are not going to do that

[iron vessel]

so anyone could just steal ArmA models and pretend it was based on a picture according to what you have said... I'm sure there's more to it legally, what does the legal stuff says about it exactly?

[faint nacelle]

no they could not

[sharp void]

Rock as an article on this stuff if I remember right, either that or he's talked about it before

[faint nacelle]

not this stuff

not taking arma models

[sharp void]

I thought he had an article dedicated to recreating stuff?

[faint nacelle]

real life stuff

arma stuff is not real life stuff. there is a difference

[sharp void]

Would the same apply in this context? Eg. take top/down, left/right, etc pictures and use those as references to create a model of your own like you would do when recreating a real life aircraft and such

[faint nacelle]

if its claimed to be done like that to hide the fact it was indeed ripped no

[iron vessel]

what if i were to model a yak130, will it still be a violation because it's related to arma and is called by the name in arma (neophron)?

[sharp void]

But if it was done like that and not ripped then it would be alright?

[faint nacelle]

youll have to ask BI legal department

[faint nacelle]

no that you can do, but the real life plane is different from neophron

[iron vessel]

but pretty similar

same thing for the gripen and whatever it is called in game

[faint nacelle]

sure but also not the same

[iron vessel]

is it legal to call it a neophron and use a yak130 model?

[faint nacelle]

youll have to ask BI legal. my guess is no

[iron vessel]

where can I reach out to BI on that subject?

if i'm not mistaken [e-mail] is for violations only

[faint nacelle]

they have contact form on their website if I remember right

[carmine folio]

neofron is just yak 130 / marrachi

[iron vessel]

i don't know about the marrachi, what is it?

[carmine folio]

its the same plane... the one in arma 3 has a single seat because BI

[iron vessel]

yes

every arma planes have their real world counterparts

except for the xi'an maybe?

hence why many people like it because of its exotic design

[faint nacelle]

you can continue further design conversation on #offtopic_arma

[soft egret]

The legal stuff says: copyright, no.

You can make something YOURSELF that looks similar. You cannot take game assets and extract them. It would at minimum violate the EULA you agreed to, and beyond that plain copyright.

[gleaming fable]

BI does not own the yak130. So you are free to use a non arma yak130 model and they don't have anything to do with that. They own their name for it though.

[dusty nimbus]

You seem to be missing a crutial detail

the model made by BI devs has specific textures, UV sets and small inaccuracies that only appear in that model

[iron vessel]

what do you mean by small inaccuracies? Despite BI plane models having their counterparts irl there are still some noticeable differences

nothing so "small"

[dusty nimbus]

if you were to rip BI's model it would be apparent that you ripped

if you made an original model it would be apparent that you made an original model

[iron vessel]

well again, I don't want to make an original model because I want to make something that portrays Arma vehicles, whilst keeping just enough similarities

i have to make something that is apparent to be an arma model but that is not

if you get what i'm saying

[dusty nimbus]

There is still a way to check stuff like that

[iron vessel]

i suggest scrolling up in the discussion a bit

[iron vessel]

ofc, by comparing the topology of the models

[dusty nimbus]

UV maps would differ, and you could check the metadata

[iron vessel]

the metadata could be easily erased but whatever

modelers can easily see if something is ripped from the base game assets anyway

[iron vessel]

the name is what i'm afraid about

[elfin heron]

its still completely their intellectual property, based off of real life or not

[iron vessel]

are we allowed to use the name, let's say, "kuma" on an external software like Tacview

if Dedmen could clarify on that it'd be nice

[elfin heron]

ask BI legal not dedmen

if its in vanilla arma 3 its the ip of BI

[faint nacelle]

@dusty nimbus there is no need to list things to help someone obfuscate ripping

This matter does not need further discussion

[paper prawn]

It should be clearly stated that Bohemia's ARMA assets cannot be used outside of ARMA. Tacview is not ARMA

[iron vessel]

i'll see with BI legal

[faint nacelle]

It I'd stated somewhere in the eula of the games

[paper prawn]

I meant in this thread 😉

[faint nacelle]

The dude just does not want to accept he can't do it.

[elfin heron]

can't do it without permission

[iron vessel]

why are you like that?

we have barely talked and you are already assuming things on me

I've said that I'll see it with BI directly, case closed

People come in and say that it's possible to an extent, and some say it's absolutely not, so let me clarify it directly at BI

[faint nacelle]

because the game EULA does say you cant take anything from the game and put it elsewhere.

pretty much all games have same rules too

and when you are told to make it yourself you are going on and on about "if I rip it how can anyone know"

[iron vessel]

Seems like you've completely misunderstood me on that

I didn't put it this way plus, my question was "what is too similar to the real model to be considered as BI ip"?

it was literally just that, but you managed to see malicious intentions for some reasons

there's no reason I would want to cause troubles for the devs of a game that I love, i simply want to contribute to adding more possibilities, like any other modder

[elfin heron]

the model is BI IP

copying it -- even if it is your "artistic interpretation" without permission is an infringement

it's quite simple

[iron vessel]

would a fanart - a drawing - be an infringement according to your definition?

i'm curious

[elfin heron]

fanart is copying the model without permission

[iron vessel]

a drawing* i forgot to say

if so BI must have some sort of tolerance on that

[elfin heron]

do you have permission to do a drawing

[iron vessel]

again, this is why I want to ask them directly

[elfin heron]

you can read the eula

[iron vessel]

and eventually ask for a permission because BI allows people to make fanarts, and even promotes some

if they refuse, alright then I'll make a yak130 model and label it a yak130

modded vehicles will be correctly labelled anyway because most of them are based on real life vehicles

[elfin heron]

you will have the same issue with the modded vehicles

[iron vessel]

i'm pretty confident that the FBI won't come all the way to france because i made a low poly model of an apache or whatever

[elfin heron]

ip violations are ip violations and not supported here

[molten kraken]

Nah, adopi would send a letter XD

[molten kraken]

#ip_rights_violations message

[iron vessel]

"RHS devs are so evil for violating the IP of the us army!!!!!!"

should we boycott them?

[faint nacelle]

alrighto

[iron vessel]

I'll read it

[faint nacelle]

everyone halts this line

[molten kraken]

And ask BI you never know, the owner might give you rights that are not covered by the EULA

[iron vessel]

this is exactly what I want to do but people keep bringing back the subject

[elfin heron]

i would advise you seriously read about what you are discussing before attempting to discuss it further

[iron vessel]

i said case closed

[molten kraken]

Ignore those reply then

[gleaming fable]

They have control over the name they use. For example lets say a car in grand theft auto is called a Speederoni and it looks like a mustang. You are free to use the model of a mustang in your game, and your car might look nearly identical to the Speederoni in GTA, and this is fine, But you can't call it the Speederoni

Just call it the Yak130. Anyone opening a tacview replay of Arma probably knows exactly what it is and doesn't care what it's called

[soft egret]

https://www.bohemia.net/community/game-content-usage-rules I think this is the best short summary.

Do not redistribute our games or any files extracted from it, do not reverse engineer it, do not hack it, do not create any alterations of our games.
That very simply answers your model question. You simply cannot extract the model (not even to then modify it, or build something using it as a template) without violating this.

You may use our trademarks and logos only as fair use. Anything you have created should not appear to be an official product of Bohemia Interactive.

I am not Bohemia Legal. But using our (Arma 3) vehicle names is fine.
Add some copyright notice somewhere that the vehicle names are ours, and don't do something horrendous like promoting terrorism (more examples on listed page), and it'll be okey (in this specific case, for this game, for this usecase).

[ocean cloud]

👋 There is a member of this Discord who is reverse-engineering my content. Who do I report them to?

[echo orchid]

send me a DM

[ocean cloud]

Hi PuFu, I remember playing with your addons all the way back in OFP. 😸 Nice to see that you're still around. I will PM you about it. Thanks a lot for the help. 🙇‍♂️

Do you know what I can do about someone who keeps reuploading my content to their workshop? They upload it, I send a DMCA, they wait the 6 days or however much Steam give you to respond, then they take the Workshop down and create a new one. 😩

[ocean cloud]

Never mind, they removed the content and deleted all the messages on their Discord. 😸 I guess they got scared because I wrote to Dwarden.

[echo orchid]

hei mate, i was about in the OFP era, but started modding when A1 was released :)))

[echo orchid]

you can send that info to @pliant oar if it is the same person, he can remove the user access to steam workshop / upload capabilities

[echo orchid]

send me the message just as well, i don't like content thieves that do reverse engineering

[ocean cloud]

I already sent it to Dwarden and e-mailed Bohemia. I didn't get a reply so I guess they're busy. 😸

[ocean cloud]

Ok, will do. 😉

[soft egret]

Always make sure to take screenshot to be able to proove stuff even if they quickly scramble to delete everything

[ocean cloud]

Good advice. 😉 I try to take as many screenshots as I can.

[ocean cloud]

Is there anything that can be done about YouTubers that use the platform to promote ported addons?

[rustic copper]

If you can prove that they display content that belongs to you, you can report the video and/or submit a Removal Request (similar to a DMCA).
Although it's pretty hard to prove the youtuber used copyrighted content in a gameplay video

[faint nacelle]

well when its a map then not quite that difficult

[rustic copper]

true, but there's no way to tell if the person loaded your terrain or a ripped version; since they look and feel the same

unless you never released it, so there's no way it can be used unless stolen

[faint nacelle]

In this case its one that can not be released for Arma3 or DayZ so yes it is completely possible to take action

[paper prawn]

Can be released for ARMA 3 but not uploaded to Steam, but definitely not for a non ARMA title for sure

In this specific case...

[last flame]

I have been made aware that someone has taken PBOs from my mod and uploaded to workshop in their own mod without permission. I can also see it includes PBOs from like 20 other known mods. (I have downloaded the mod myself and verified it contains my pbos resigned with their own key)

Does this fall into the DCMA request through steam, or how should I report it? (Arma3)

[manic laurel]

yes, AFAIK, it does

please provide us (orange, green or purple peeps on this server) in DMs the item's URL too so we can check the """author""" (uploader)

[last flame]

Thanks. I will see if I can figure out how to submit that through steam. And send you a dm with the link.

[south egret]

I am having problems with Workshop Crawler at the moment

I found out that the petty YuEmod has ripped one of the NF uniform shirts of the Soviet sailors. I will try to track down all reuploads to DMCA them.

It also means they have reverted a p3d file, retextured it and modified them to fit another model, but nothing surprising to me

Proof

From metadata of MMM_TankTop_co one can find this

which was when I exported my textures

My highpoly, dated 22.12.2020

[manic laurel]

yes but, this channel is not really for this kind of reports
eventually provide the link to said item to @pliant oar so if the offender is a repeater his upload rights can get nuked, but that's about it

[south egret]

Gotcha, I am just tinkering if there is any way to track different reuploads when the crawler is offline

And I know that some have had problems with this in the past, but iirc it was been more of selling it forward, now I got atleast something to base DMCA on.

[ocean cloud]

Do you guys know if I can DMCA a Discord server? They've ripped off my map and are distributing it on Mega Upload after sending DMCAs on Steam.

[molten kraken]

Unless it's hosted on Discord, I don't think so. However you can DMCA Mega Upload

[manic laurel]

you can DMCA the MegaUpload and you can report said server with copyright infringement

[ocean cloud]

Do I report the server to Dwarden? The servers are located in Russia. 😟

[manic laurel]

no, to Discord

[ocean cloud]

Oh, I will report it since they are sharing the Mega Upload links there.

[manic laurel]

reports are web interface iirc

[ocean cloud]

The DayZ community is a real pain in the rear end. Too many toxic people have started playing the game lately. Its one DMCA after another. 😩

[coral torrent]

It should not be offline normally, only when we have little technical difficulties. Is it not working for you right now?

[ocean cloud]

Is it possible to get the uploader's name and address from these websites like Mega Upload?

Why is it that I have to provide all my details and these people are protected by anonymity?

[manic laurel]

ask them, but most likely not

[queen badge]

it gives api status code 500

[manic laurel]

that bothers me too.

[molten kraken]

Maybe so that people with grudges don't go swatting someone that uploads something legally, what protects the innocent will always be used to protect the guilty ones

[manic laurel]

the unfortunate side effect is that it opens legitimate requests to doxxing and such
people illegally uploading receive all the legal information of the complaining person, and not the other way around - it would be nice if the intermediary would keep both info to itself, or if both info were revealed to both parties I guess

[molten kraken]

would be nice if the intermediary kept both parties info to itself until it was asked for further pursuit, but then who would be able to request the info for the pursuit?

it will always be a problem to define where, when, and at which point, the intermediary should give the personal info it has since personal information has good value and can be used as a weapon

[paper prawn]

If you know of servers running your ripped map then you should see whether Dwarden/BI can turn off BattlEye to them all as well Martin. They do that for servers breaking BI's EULAs...

Does seem to me though that BI doesn't really care about people ripping ARMA mods into DZSA though...

[south egret]

Been getting API returned status code 500 for a while.

[gleaming fable]

Not without suing. mega is also headquartered in Hong Kong, presumably for the purposes of being harder to reach by the western legal system. Good luck trying to sue a chinese company.

or a company who only has prescence in china.

I would just keep sending dcmas to the companies they are using to distribute it that are in the us or europe. discord, steam, bohemiam etc

[ocean cloud]

You need their name and address to sue, that's the problem. 😸

[paper prawn]

You can also dcma game server providers for those servers that are using them to host your map

Not sure whether dcma is the correct phrase, but legally contact the gsp and inform them that they are hosting ip-infringing property. Has been done before

Won't matter in Russia or China (and others) but in the US and EU it is a possibility

[manic laurel]

D M<>C A , btw

[paper prawn]

Damn, I keep doing that... Silly abbreviation 😉

[gleaming fable]

Right, you don't sue the people directly, at least not at first. To start with you are effectively suing the platform hosting the content. such as if someone was hosting content on discord, you would have to go to a court and seek an injunction or subpoena for discord ordering them to turn over any info they have on the users.

If you are granted this, then you might have their actual information and could start the process of suing them directly.

https://torrentfreak.com/court-discord-must-expose-genshin-impact-leaker-ubatcha-221202/

It happens occasionally.

[rustic copper]

It's pretty easy to take down something on Mega: https://mega.io/copyrightnotice

Same for Discord: https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=360000466272

And when they counter it (for whatever reason), they need to supply their personal data as well.
In which case you can sue them directly, without getting a court order to get their personal data (which can get pretty painful when only a valid email address is required, meaning you need a second court order for the mail provider or ISP when IP addresses are stored).

[gleaming fable]

Yeah the point is that it's not an easy process. You also don't always need to go to the ISP. For example if the genshin impact leaker had discord nitro, then discord themselves will have their first and last name, and address via their payment info and would have to turn that over.

But it's all you are left with if companies choose to not comply

[steep mulch]

I've been developing a gamemode for years. After a disagreement I got banned from the whole community and the server by the host, and he's apparently still hosting my edits even though he doesn't have permission for it anymore. What might make this tricky is that it's an Arma 2 server. Can BE blacklist such a server or do they even have any interest in it? Or anything else?

[molten kraken]

get the hosting platform/ISP to shutdown access to it due to an IP infringement

[steep mulch]

So I guess I'll just write an e-mail to their abuse address

[molten kraken]

yes unless they have a form to demand it

[soft egret]

"my edits" doesn't sound like it was your gamemode.
Is it yours, or did you work on theirs?
If you worked on theirs, its most likely still theirs

[steep mulch]

The original gamemode is by a third party (with whom I'm regularly in contact with). I'm not asking to remove the whole gamemode, just my edits indeed

[elfin heron]

dont post it in here, just attracts attention to the mod from people who cant do anything about it. its already been reported to the relevant people

if theres game rips report it to the email in channel topic

[manic laurel]

@ionic girder ↑
report to [e-mail] with more details (which mods are included, etc)

[onyx herald]

Hello! Just noticed this. I'm the host of the server.
The original mission is created by Benny (it's named Warfare), and we received the mission in 2018 from Spayker (who developed it further from the original 2010 version 2.073 or so). Since then, the mission has had many contributors but we've been working on it together (with a few other contributors). @steep mulch gave me the server in 2021 summer. Every commit is visible here. https://github.com/Ezcoo/a2waspwarfare (and some others on my fork after the split). I've not received any complaint from him yet, just noticed this in this discord.
Since then I've not heard anything from Benny (gone?), Spayker or @steep mulch (who still has me blocked) that the mission should get taken down, and this just seems a desperate attempt to hurt my community.

[coral torrent]

Do you have any kind of agreement where he left you the rights for the mission? Written or verbal in front of other people? If not, you will be forced to remove anything he ever wrote. Even if the code is on github - he has not put it under a license there that would allow you to use it.

[soft egret]

I was wondering if there is a license that when you contribute code, it belongs to the project and you can't enforce to take it back.
I don't actually know how common such a thing is, i would expect every open source project should have it.
I don't know if any of mine do, never had to think about that.

[coral torrent]

Yes for open source projects that is the case because you publish your code under the existing license of he project, so you can't pull out and ask them to remove your code, they can continue to use it as long as they e.g. credit you as author inside (depending on the exact clauses of the license). For closed source private server projects they would need an agreement that states that any work done for this project results in a irrevocable perpetual usage permission for the sake of this project with maybe some limitations to all parties having to agree if they want to later sell the project as a whole or transfer the rights to a party who did not partake in the agreement originally.
Over the years I have only ever seen 2 community ask their devs to sign something like that, because usually nobody thinks about the bad stuff, as they are all friends and have fun with their server. And when the day comes they split ways in maybe bad ways nothing is properly arranged.

If there is verbal agreement of "lets make this together" and later somebody tries to pull out, it can actually be fought in court. If you have witnesses that say we all agreed upon working for this common project and it was clear that the work was going to be ownership of the group that will be enough, but you need to go to court for this. The person can e.g. DMCA in the mean time and you need to fight to get it reinstated. So while in theory a written contract is no required, in practices until the verbal agreement was validated by a court, which can take a year or more until a hearing, you are giga fucked. Always write it down somewhere, it can be informal. We - names - agree that all work contributed to - project name - can be built upon, remixed and redistributed indefinitely as long as its under the name - project name - (and only for non commercial purposes) - Date and signatures. Even something as drafted on the spot like that is better than nothing and protects you from a situation above.

[onyx herald]

That's some solid info! Thanks guys!

[steep mulch]

I gave him short, not so formal written but temporary permission to host the gamemode, but it has been revoked by now (I don't want to bring the drama here so I'll just say it's because of reasons). I filed a DMCA complaint a few days ago and just got a response from the server hosting company, that's why Miksuu hasn't heard from me yet as there was some delay in the hosting company processing the DMCA.

The project doesn't have any license

[steep mulch]

Though I think that me blocking him requires some explanation: yes, I will block a person that calls me incompetent developer with OCD and spams me on purpose with stuff (that would e.g. get him banned on this server) that he knows very well to hurt my mental wellbeing (without going into details) and sends modified chatlogs in public to mobilize a mob after me and bans me for me calling it out after I've spent ~1000 hours developing a server for free

[onyx herald]

If you don't want to bring out the drama...?

[onyx herald]

Why are you bringing this out here then?

Btw check steam I'm still open for a voice communication if you want us both to go on a better path, that will be good for your cause too (especially when I know what's your current life situation is like...)

[steep mulch]

Though I think that me blocking him requires some explanation <- It reads in the message. To further elaborate: if people are wondering why I have you blocked when there's clear need for communication. No, I don't want to be in any contact with you than the absolutely legally necessary stuff for the reasons above. Thanks for understanding

[onyx herald]

Yh, sure man. All the best for you in the future, lines of communication to my way are open in future if you want to talk about things properly (unlike those text chats we've had).
The abuse report is replied to now perhaps you'll see it in a few days again (when your code is already removed from the server)

[steep mulch]

I'm all fine after the code has been removed, you can continue hosting as you wish then naturally. Thanks for the cooperation regarding this matter in any case

[onyx herald]

👍 If you wish to host your own server, be sure to remove my stuff as well (including not executable code itself, rather configurations). In regards the commits by the other contributors, I think you'll have to contact them for that.

[onyx herald]

Tomorrow by 0700z it's and reverted to the 2018 state which I start building the mission with the help of the other contributors too.
Anyways, good luck for your upcoming career!

[steep mulch]

Thanks and good luck too

[soft egret]

Who do i have to contact to report a server for violation against monetization rules

[onyx herald]

(answering to his latest message that got removed)
Thanks mods, I hope that next time he'll contact me by private means.

[delicate hamlet]

This is quite interesting, I begun working on a project a couple of years ago for a private repo of a community for which I was part of, I actually suggested creating a custom license for the mod itself because it was "open source" and some people were contributing intermittently. We basically set it up that anything contributed will become indefinite part of the mod even if the contributor leaved, basically ceeding us the rights of the assets created by the contributor with proper attributions. We also established that in order for any asset to be included, it had to be verified as propietary as we didnt want to have issues of ip violation on the long run if the project ever became public.

It's curious how uncommon this seems to be, at least for me it sound logical to protect the project as a whole and make it tantrum-proof.

[onyx herald]

That sounds good. I'll make sure to license the continuation of the project this way too with it's upcoming contributors that so stuff like this doesn't happen ever again. For me, I had all the trust in this person, had known him for a many years and never had problem with him. If the person is going through tough times on his life, I believe that it can make them act extremely irrationally and things like this can happen especially when they block you and proper two way communication is impossible.

[pliant oar]

see the email in topic of channel (under the channel name on top)

[steep mulch]

Maybe it's tantrum for some, but I kept the project without a license purposefully since I started to feel about two years ago that something is not right. My suggestion is that to protect yourself from mishandling, do not license your work to be used later if something seems fishy.

[dusty nimbus]

are there any alternatives to the workshop crawler

[stiff jasper]

checking every mod on Workshop manually

or forking its code and setting up your own instance

[coral torrent]

or waiting for our re-indexing to finish ...

I don't understand why when we are unavailable for a couple of days everybody searches for alternatives instead of waiting it to get back up and while it is online nobody cares to support our efforts at all. So you guys want us to run the show for free without any downtime or how should we understand this? We upgraded the database server in the hopes it will stop eating the entire servers ram, and the old data was simply incompatible. It takes a while to process a few TB of data. Probably around the 20th of June

[stiff jasper]

"guys"? I'm not asking for any alternative software, just providing an answer.

[coral torrent]

That was more targeted towards who asked and those who did the same over time, not at you specifically

[gleaming fable]

What database and host are you using?

[manic laurel]

#offtopic_software

[ocean cloud]

I've e-mailed Bohemia and haven't gotten a repsocnce for weeks. Does anyone know what's going on? 🤔

[stiff jasper]

you might want to contact Dwarden and send the same email again (with CC to him), I was told to do that some time ago after my previous mail was left unresponded too

[ocean cloud]

I did, he also doesn't respond. 😰

I DMed him but I don't have his e-mail address.