💣┇weapons-gadgets

[winged furnace]

its like a toothpick versus a thermonuclear missle

[chilly granite]

even with no other changes, tightening the inner spread so it's got a less awful range would not be op

[sudden pewter]

Love playing with friends

[chilly granite]

even the matter's inner spread is huge comapred to the model, whcih has better damage than the matter's inner spread

[primal lark]

It was a missed opportunity for embark to add new weapons this season. A lot of people have been asking for a P90 to be added to the game.

I think it would be a very good idea for it to be added sooner or later

[chilly granite]

?????

[compact tundra]

It's a joke

[chilly granite]

good jokes have a punchline

[compact tundra]

The punchline is haha p90 was added, laugh or I'll beat you

[placid meteor]

Hi

[stoic garden]

I'm so sleep deprived i Lowkey laughed at this

i love plane delays, finally got to the place tho, good night #💣┇weapons-gadgets

[chilly granite]

gn bro

[unkempt moss]

Bad Ending Unjust is so based. We can thank Embark for that.

Going scorched earth in game feedback. Dropping one liners.

[tulip knoll]

Hit your fucking shots then

[compact tundra]

I've been beaten and broke, if they ever nerf flamethrower I'll actually enter my villain arc, it's the last bastion I have in this game

[unkempt moss]

Its coming.

Same for GooGun. Theyre systematically coming for the heavy players in wepsNgadg.

[muted condor]

Bait or mental degradation
Call it

[chilly granite]

You making mistakes doesn't negate it being annoying

That said, need invuln so they're not too griefey, even that was a total grief if you don't miss

Invuln is the least problematic part of defibs

[near citrus]

Best med weapon?

[muted condor]

They should at least make a visual identifier for when they become vulnerable again

[tidal urchin]

please make the fcar respectful i mean its almost unusable in cashout ranked. Not asking for a meta buff but damn

[gray jackal]

New player here, what are some good weapons for each class? I usually play heavy w minigun or titan and wanna know if thats bad; also whats good for med light builds

[muted condor]

Shak and Titan are probably the meta picks for heavy but the mini gun is still really good and my personal favorite weapon.
The repeater is by far the meta weapon on medium but the revolver and famas are good picks as well.
I don’t know much about light but I hear the V9S and M11 are good.

[chilly granite]

Peater

[chilly granite]

Fcar is fine it doesn't need buff they just need to delete peater

Gun doesn't matter much for light, but you need to play for your weapons strengths on light

If you don't play for your gun strength on light you will have bad time

[unkempt moss]

GooGun is the only primary you need...

[chilly granite]

Man the controllee players on Reddit defending aim snapping being added to CB when NTMR's medium played CB with no aim snapping and hit constant headshots

And then saying that mnk players who say aim assist too strong are bad and coping KEKW

[muted condor]

God damn it

I keep getting so close

[golden smelt]

Bring back the fun of season 1, the balance team is destroying this game. Such a bummer.

[muted condor]

Yes bring back one tapping rpgs, instant full health defibs, immortal heavies with double heals, and stun gun 🙏

[unkempt moss]

Have you tried being better at the game lmayo

[sudden pewter]

Should the eclipse shade Zipline have a red, or black wire?

I’m gunna make a really fast concept for it and I can’t decide

[unkempt moss]

It should be a laser attachment on the top of a stick shooting a red zipline.

Sorry I realized the question wasn't for me

[muted condor]

I’m going to disembowel you in front of your family

[sudden pewter]

Nah brother as sick as that would be I gotta keep it realistic

[muted condor]

Red so it’s different than the standard

[sudden pewter]

I am changing the Zipline base into something akin to a compound bow wing though

Trying to figure out where to put that Eclipse Shade SR8 symbol

[muted condor]

Can we get a little tiny Cerb buff please. Just a little bit

[sudden pewter]

I definitely feel Cerb could use a light nudge aye

Do we want Cerb to go back to 3 Tapping Heavies?

[muted condor]

Maybe with burn

Also make the burn more consistent

[sudden pewter]

Idk, maybe with a QM

I wouldn’t want it to become a faster model against Heavies

Especially since it FINALLY got some energy back in it

[unkempt moss]

I just feel like the cerb is right on that tipping point of being too strong so it would need a really smart buff

[sudden pewter]

I’ve got it! Demolition damage. || / s ||

What could I put on the side of the Zipline? Carabiners?

I’d like some clutter. It isn’t a weapon so I don’t want to burden it with shells

Maybe some Hi-Visibility tape or something

[unkempt moss]

Is that tactical hammer skin eclipse shade?

[sudden pewter]

Eclipse Shade is a tacti-cool series of skins for weapons

[unkempt moss]

I know. There's a sledge hammer skin like that.

It has a bipod and eotech on it

I didn't know if it was the same series.

[sudden pewter]

I don’t believe there’s a single Eclipse Shade Gadget and I wanted to imagine what they could look like (I planned to make concepts and throw them in #1075060148004991067 )

I’m a turbo virgin and I love tactical themes for my contestants so I wanted to make some and just see what came to me

[unkempt moss]

I love the ultra tactical larp as well. Especially on heavy.

[sudden pewter]

Yeah it’s my SOUL for Heavy

[unkempt moss]

I've never even seen that channel.

[sudden pewter]

It’s mainly art and occasionally very dogshit weapon suggestions

There was a now deleted post made by what is obviously either a tourist or someone with a surface level enjoyment of the game. And it was
A Scythe for Light 🤢
What’s worse, it had:

• both single target and AOE sweeps
• lifesteal
• built in winch/grapple (could be used to pull enemies/objects or grapple to enemies/objects)

And it was COOL 🦇 and EPIC 🩸 because when using it a chain would wrap around the Lights arm

(The scythe was larger than the light btw)

[unkempt moss]

I feel like if you take even a moment to vet that idea in your head you come to the conclusion of how bad of an idea it is.

[muted condor]

I’d take it if we got some balancing changes with it

[sudden pewter]

Gunna just trace the LewisGun and then change parts of it and figure out how the hell we make it Tacticool

Add rubber to the edges of the reel-mag?

[unkempt moss]

I'm assuming people want the kusarigama to be similar to that scythe idea.

[sudden pewter]

The fact such a large portion of the Light hivemind crave such a thing tells me everything I need to know

[unkempt moss]

It's your favorite. A ranged melee.

[sudden pewter]

But I’m also a notorious hater, perhaps Embark will pull their head out of their ass and introduce a new melee weapon when they get around to reworking all the existing ones

I shouldn’t write off the possibility, but damn do I not believe it likely

[unkempt moss]

It could be very embark like to release a new melee without fixing their others.

[sudden pewter]

Yes, and Lights have been threatening to uninstall because they haven’t gotten a new toy for two seasons now

It’s “unacceptable” apparently

[unkempt moss]

What do you see as the most requested light weapon or gadget?

[sudden pewter]

Gadget? A mine of some sort for Light, which I'm not a fan of (purely because Light is already super lethal as an ambusher and doesn't need that to bolster its lethality)

Also just noticed the Lewis has attachpoints for a carry strap, so for the eclipse shade I'll be taking off the Bipod and adding a carry strap 🙂

For weapons, aside from the general weeb stuff? I've seen some requests for a crossbow, yet another SMG (KrissVector), and nothing else really comes to mind aside from one off requests

[muted condor]

I am so sick of the repeater rn

[sudden pewter]

If it aint the repeater its the revolver

Would it be sacrilege to remove the Shroud?

I'd love to have some barrel detail but the big chunky shroud is iconic

[muted condor]

Gotta keep it

[sudden pewter]

Oh, ER8 is a company

Probably owned by IVADA

[unkempt moss]

You could replace the shroud with like an enormous quad rail. Keep the shape that way.

[sudden pewter]

I'm trying to incorporate as many elements as possible from other Eclipse Shade skins, but Lewis is an old gun and I wanna pay homage to that

Might make it the first Eclipse Shade to have wood furniture, even if it's a very dark wood

I could also add a modern vented barrel shroud, could be nice for visual noise

Something like this

[unkempt moss]

It seems like you have the vision figured out.

[analog pewter]

winch kinda fun when you dont got a bitch in ya ear telling you its op

running it with anti-grav and enjoying myself

[sudden pewter]

Just remember GooGun is next

[analog pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/471732094062690304/1467058720159699139/Replay_2026-01-30_22-53-05.mp4?ex=697f0067&is=697daee7&hm=779ea299bcb56ac0e2aea4dcce2517d265dc2de9e4a00f905a20a6bfc8c86e93&

i love these stupid finger guns

[slow linden]

Embarks balance ever since they moved away from weekly balance changes

[boreal laurel]

Please don’t say that 🙏 (IK IK it’s only a matter of time but still 🥲)

[analog pewter]

goo gun is embark's baby and it'll never have enough players for embark to target it with the nerfhammer, unironically i think it's safe

like every other spec would have to become substantially worse for embark to put their sights on googs

[slow linden]

Goo gun is MY baby,if anything it needs a buff

Which it doesn't

[analog pewter]

it needs a hitreg buff why the fuck does it phase through players but clip any random piece of debris that's in its zip code

[sudden pewter]

Nah, the moment Winch is properly adjusted (stun axed) GooGun will be next due to Goolock. It’ll only take a single instance and the Hive will be abuzz

[slow linden]

God is dead

[analog pewter]

lmao literally, this happens all the time, you can even in this clip see the goo orbs floating in place where they would have impacted the player

[slow linden]

If your ping is not perfect,which with these dogshit servers and half decent internet is impossible,the goo gun is kinda ass,that's coming from the arch deacon btw,I know how bad it is,because I use it,I rarely ever use any other spec

Even with perfect ping I've shot through people who are STANDING FUCKING STILL AND SHOOTING ME

[analog pewter]

yea if i didnt clear out my clips recently to free up space im sure i could dig up a few dozen clips of goo just no-reging

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-computer-smile-yellow-smile-surprised-gif-26981337

mrw goo just does fuck all

[slow linden]

How are you not green yet btw you've been red for centuries

[analog pewter]

im close, like 3800 i think

[slow linden]

Oh good shit

[analog pewter]

[polar cedar]

yes bro I NEED this

[slow linden]

I swear embark intentionally gives every projectile the most inconsistencies

[latent thistle]

.

[jaunty canopy]

Do some one now’s when we will get the thermal vision for lite back?

[slow linden]

Give it to heavy

Make winch pull you towards the enemy not the enemy toward you

[sudden nest]

I cant write by brain is a graveyard

[placid slate]

They all say that until it becomes the popular pick

[potent whale]

anyone playing L class
what`s your loadout?

[stoic garden]

if you want my evil ass camp loadout i run cloak lh1 gateway goo gas

i try running frag instead of gas but i cant get much value out of it lol

usually swap gas for breach charge

if lh1 is too hard use arn

[thin quarry]

I have been learning mesh shield for comp any tips/need to use guns? I mostly use lewis/sa12 with rpg, dome shield, and c4

[stoic garden]

the loadout that never dies lmao

[sullen quarry]

How does one counter dual blades while running light?

[compact tundra]

One does not counter the dual blades, rather that would need two

[serene glade]

Working with your team, strafing while shooting, disengaging to get a new angle

[chilly granite]

nullifier->frag

realistically, good players won't stand on the frag grenade

but nullifier still buys a lot of time for youto regroup wiht oyut eteamm and find optimal positioning to blow up a dual blades

[sullen quarry]

Gotcha

Played in a lobby earlier and there were like 5 people with dual blades 😐

[compact tundra]

@short dagger

If you could please tell me if my post in #👂┇game-feedback helped. If so could you move my fix under your initial post for others to see, I need more room to piss and moan with the current state of the game

[short dagger]

Nope, crazy talk

[compact tundra]

Idk then, rebinding the buttons worked for me

[short dagger]

Im just gonna use this as an excuse to act as erratic and unconventionally as I want in solo que and then scream at my team when they don't understand.

I mean they don't pay attention to my pings anyways but now I have an alibi for their inattention.

[compact tundra]

Fair enough I guess, the problem one for me was the equipment wheel. That was the main one inhibiting me

[short dagger]

oh jeez, yeah no tac wheel for me is a bummer, but equipment wheel is a screamer yikes

[quaint shard]

I play L when playing Power Shift.My loadout is sniper,frag,pyro granade,poison granade and evasive dash

[compact tundra]

I play
Grapple
Sword
Gateway
Vanish bomb
Breach charge/H+ infuser

[quaint shard]

Its OK

[compact tundra]

Na, more than OK

Sry video still sending

[quaint shard]

Do you play with M?

[compact tundra]

En Fuego medium
Heal beam/Turret
Cerberus
Jumpe pad
Defib
Pyronade

[thick holly]

I love my medium loadout ^_^!

Riot shield, Heal Beam, Data Reshaper, Zipline, Defib

[compact tundra]

Why are you red?

[thick holly]

Idk

[compact tundra]

Do the roles decay over time?

[thick holly]

Idk??

Is red the lowest role???

[compact tundra]

No that's right below green

-levels

[raven finch]

Our leveling system

"Why can't I do some things in the server?"

• You may need to level up first!

How to level up? Just look around and join conversations. Lots to talk about!

Lvl 0: Newbie 0xp
• join VC • make bug reports • chat in most channels
Lvl 1: <@&1011197091470647317> 35xp
• create new VC • reactions • external emoji • images in drip check, pet channel
Lvl 3: <@&1011197119199191071> 115xp
• images in most channels • embeds in main chat
Lvl 8: <@&1133322765194235904> 1015xp
• embeds and images everywhere
Lvl 15: <@&1012661788401217579> 3955xp
• external stickers • VC streaming • bragging rights!

Role descriptions: #👋┇welcome
Check your rank: #🏆┇rank-check

[thick holly]

Was I ever green?

I mean my sona is green, but my role

[compact tundra]

I thought you were

Maybe I'm just crazy

[quaint shard]

How many hours you have?

[thick holly]

Perhaps

In the game? I think 500+

[quaint shard]

920+

What is your record in eleminations?

[compact tundra]

1,203hrs

[compact tundra]

Like total elims or highest kill game

[thick holly]

I think the most kills I've gotten in 3 rounds of cashout was 35 with the riot shield

[quaint shard]

In cashout or ranked?

[compact tundra]

I got 31 in a tdm game one time with sword

[thick holly]

Normal cashout, I don't really like playing ranked

[potent whale]

sword... mate how do u feel being evil?

[quaint shard]

Not evil ,it is tactics

[thick holly]

I love my riot shield and I will always love it

[potent whale]

its pure evil, hatred and some other words with similar meaning

[compact tundra]

Sword is a aim check, the lobbies I'm usually in people beam my skull so it's not super effective unless I sweat my ass off

[quaint shard]

You are waiting in corner with sword and vanishing bomb

[potent whale]

https://tenor.com/view/terraria-calamity-rage-anger-meme-gif-11741976053183870900

[compact tundra]

? That's a hell of an assumption. I sent you a video of me playing sword, ain't exactly the camping style of player

[quaint shard]

OK,but some players do that

[potent whale]

what do u think abt double swords and a dagger?

[compact tundra]

Yea but vanish bomb doesn't exactly last that long, and if they are running cloak then they have no dash and no grapple so much easier to kill

[quaint shard]

Double swords,I dont know how to defeat them

[compact tundra]

Dual swords have been the worst weapon in the game since the day they released. Dagger is fine but is problematic with the shit servers and abusable hit reg

[quaint shard]

Where to shoot player with dual swords?

[potent whale]

minecraft thorns enchantment

[compact tundra]

Stay with your team, it's nearly impossible to win a 2v1 with dual blades. Also strafe side to side to get around the block and throw off their deflect aim

Also while they're hitting you shoot them. They can't block while attacking and Dual blades have a shit ttk and most guns could just win the fight if they land their shots

[unkempt moss]

You goolock them until they stand there and give up

[compact tundra]

Bro I feel so mean bullying dual blades with goo flame, it's evil cause I know I could beat them with m11 anyways cause of their shit ttk

[compact tundra]

Next time I fight a dual blades I'ma use goo gun and gas nade for the goo gas lock

[potent whale]

LongShot how do u react? i cant do shi

[quaint shard]

Run away

[potent whale]

no i mean here in discord... reaction yk

[tacit edge]

is the flash bang good?

[quaint shard]

Keep pressing on massage

[compact tundra]

It's funny

[tacit edge]

but like good to win

[compact tundra]

No outside of being really good with it and having a miced up team so they know to turn and not get flashed, otherwise you'll be flashing your own teammates

[tacit edge]

how about in a 1v1?

[compact tundra]

It's fine there but goo nade does it's job better, and smoke nade does it's job slightly worse but can be combined with gas nade for invincible gas

[tacit edge]

oh wow, cool thx

[quaint shard]

Did it work?

[tacit edge]

also i still cant move my guy in a private match or create one

[potent whale]

check DM

[tacit edge]

does anybody know a fix

[unkempt moss]

Its their fault for playing medium. Play heavy and I won't do it. C&S Hammer if they want to make sure it doesnt happen again.

[sudden pewter]

You need two players for a private match

[tacit edge]

yea obv i know that but we cant even change the gamemode either

[sudden pewter]

That’s called the Embark Special

[tacit edge]

so what its just cooked

[unkempt moss]

Probably

[sudden pewter]

Aye, you’re doomed until Embark decides to fix it

[tacit edge]

omg bro im just gonna buy ark raiders

[sudden pewter]

Sorry we can’t be of more assistance

Don’t worry though, we’re getting another ESPORT event later this year

[tacit edge]

if u look at the finals support page vs ark raiders u can see how much more effort they put into ark raiders

[tacit edge]

great

[sudden pewter]

As we all know, that’s what you really care about. More $12 Signed team bundles and 2-3 months with no balance changes

[tacit edge]

yep

[kindred gorge]

Ran into a team running double goo gun/sledge hammer the other day and my lord it wasn’t the most effective but it was annoying

Even though I was hard countering since I had my SA loadout on it was still a toss up cause one guy could go you and give his teammate free overhead swings

[chilly granite]

in the back

[compact tundra]

SA doesn't hard counter sledge. Sledge actually wins that fight if they don't get jumped. I'd say out ranging them with lewis or counter goo locking with flame would work well, tho the flame one is way riskier and if they both jump you you're cooked

[kindred gorge]

SA does have a pretty consistently faster ttk, especially if you can stun them out of their overhead swing

[compact tundra]

Yea but you gotta land like 6 shots which includes a barrel rotation, meanwhile they get two big hits in and you're dead

[kindred gorge]

You can cancel the barrel spin though, and that’s assuming the charge doesn’t finish the job on its own

[patent lodge]

Any tips for using mini gun? I'm not sure what gadgets I should use with it I usually just go with Shield Bubble, RPG, and healing admitter.

[quaint shard]

Flashbang is excellent,but try not to throw it near teammates

[kindred gorge]

What spec are you using? And I’d recommend goo nade or lockbolt if you run into the issue of people getting behind cover while you’re spinning up

[patent lodge]

Well, I use charge and slam not sure what I should use I just started using mini gun

[compact tundra]

That's pretty good but you wanna run charge and slam as your spec for close range damage, and maybe swap RPG for C4. Minigun should realistically be finishing any fight you're in on its own and C4 can help stall steals since the rev up and low mobility can make it harder for you to punish slippery stealing

[kindred gorge]

I’d actually say take goo in place of rpg

[compact tundra]

Also minigun is very reliant on aware teammates, if you're team isn't covering you then like lewis is probably better

[kindred gorge]

You can either lock enemies in place or funnel them through an entrance you’re prepared to defend

[compact tundra]

That's fair but I'd actually drop the dome for the goo. Cause C4 is really helpful so your not a sitting duck on the cash box the whole time your team is fighting

[patent lodge]

Well, I usually play team deathmatch and rarely play cash out

[compact tundra]

Oh, NVM your loadout is good

[patent lodge]

What should i change tho for Cashout then?

[kindred gorge]

Minigun on tdm is ambitious as is. That would make me lean more towards mesh shield for that, so that if you get in a losing fight you can stall until a teammate comes in to clean up

[compact tundra]

What we talked about,
C4 > RPG
And maybe Goonade > Dome

[compact tundra]

For TDM tho swap RPG with lockbolt. It gives you free kills

Or you could swap with heal ball out if you're very dive heavy

[patent lodge]

Alright, but would you think mesh shield would be better than charge and slam? Or should I keep it as is.

[compact tundra]

Mesh is only gonna prolong your death unless you're playing with teammates. Because of the rev even if they dump their mag into the shield by the time you're reved up they've reloaded

[analog pewter]

They work well together imo

I run cns/mini/rpg/dome/healing orb

[patent lodge]

Same, but I find myself barely using RPG.

[analog pewter]

I open fights with it if I haven't already used it to breach

Think of it as 110 free damage in your pocket

[indigo nexus]

RPG is kind of a must have on pretty much any heavy loadout aiming to be viable, I think. Particularly since they buffed it.

[patent lodge]

I know what you mean, but when I use it I feel like I don't get enough damage into the other player

[chilly granite]

rpg is better than lockbolt in tdm if you die a lot lol

but I don't know if the antisynergy with minigun spin is a problem in tdm

caveat being don't use rpg like a moron; I had a guy in a tdm who woud respawn -> winch me -> rpg me -> eat my fullycharged arrow headshot because he winched me

[compact tundra]

No gun can win a ttk race with minigun, and if lock bolted they can't run. It basically forces a fight on who ever you hit, something minigun will always win if you don't miss

[chilly granite]

winch doesn't interrupt arrow charge, and the rpg splashback puts him in onetap zone

[chilly granite]

absolutely, but you still need to hit shots. Light is the most common class in tdm, and 110 free damage makes for extremely easy kills

and people don't tend to run away/forcing a fight isn't usually needed

if you're not dying, lock bolt is for sure better

[compact tundra]

That's fair, I was coming from the perspective of not missing. Cause if you're not missing much then minigun will shred lights and it's biggest down fall is them dashing behind cover or running away, something lockbolt hard stops

[chilly granite]

minigun is a lot harder on mnk lol (assumign the m11 is a decent refrence point)

I've been testing aim assist on my steamdeck, it's actually crazy

[indigo nexus]

#👂┇game-feedback message @unborn patrol But, how? There aren't nearly enough ruby players for them to have their own matches.

[restive plover]

Just a idea what about a x bow with explosive rounds 🤔

Or knuckle dusters

And or gravity boots

🤷‍♂️

[kindred gorge]

Bro been on a clash too much

Knuckle dusters does sound really cool though, I don’t know how you’d make it mechanically different from existing weapons though

[kindred gorge]

You could implement percentage based damage like certain characters in rivals but that sounds like a nightmare for a team that already struggles with balance

[reef briar]

bro I wish truce wasn't so good with the mgl so embark would finally buff it smh

[sudden pewter]

FCAR (prior to the changes) could out TTK with headshots assuming Minigun was hitting bodies and I only remember this because I was flabbergasted I lost that fight

Begging takes place in #💥┇spawn-point not here.

[sudden pewter]

Bro used an AI Overview dude unfortunately he’s a lost cause

[indigo nexus]

this seems to not be true? 100% headshots was 1.11s, 100% bodyshots from a revved up minigun is 0.88

[sudden pewter]

My ass for not saving the recording tbh but I swear bro trust

[analog pewter]

a wasted gadget is usually better than an unused gadget

so just keep using it to practice, dont hesitate

[blazing thistle]

istg guardian has been locking on so quickly

im gonna placebo myself into assuming its not a skill issue

[compact tundra]

Hey if you're able, could you sum up a short list of everything you think is wrong with the finals rn. Can be anything, player retention, monetization, esports, devs, whatever. I want to hear what other people think is ultimately leading the game down a bad path, if they even think the current path is bad

[chilly granite]

it's absolutely possible with the most terrible luck since minigun is spread weapon

[compact tundra]

Ill accept answers from anyone btw, I might start pinging people for their opinion if the info ends up being helpful

[sudden pewter]

“Wrong” with the game?

Or just general issues? Because Player Retention being bad isn’t wrong

[compact tundra]

Do you think the game is going in a negative direction rn? And if so what issue or issues do you blame

[sudden pewter]

That’s easy. From largest to smallest my issues are as follows:

• Glacial Balance Speed
  I understand that consoles are second class gaming platforms that require balance changes to be certified before they’re pushed to live, but this may need to be something looked at for game health.
• Lack of Communication
  Talk to us, it isn’t that fucking hard. If you’ve got something cooking in the background talk about it, if you’re thinking about adjusting a mechanic write a paragraph or two on it. Let’s discuss decisions before they’re made and you drop them on our doorstep like a flaming bag of dogshit.
• Focus on ESPORTS
  Stop. The vast majority of the community don’t care for ESPORTS, if you have data that suggests otherwise fucking share it. TGM was one of the most bone dry periods of the game in recent history because the game was left unchanged for two months because you “didn’t wanna shake up the meta”. These events do nothing for the game itself aside from giving you more opportunities to add $12 Team Sponsored Bundles.

[indigo nexus]

Developers do not talk through concerns with their community nearly so much as would seem sensible. This is the big one, community members don’t have much insight into why the devs work as they do, which leads to frustration.

With the recent FCAR change especially, I am concerned that the weapon balancing process is not very rigorous, and it seems a disproportionately low amount of changes are trialled, considering most kinds of balance change are less work than implementation of other features.

That’s everything that comes to mind right now.

[sudden pewter]

Communication would solve 90% of the problems the community faces at large

It really feels like Embark only cares about the community for Optics, they scrape Reddit for clips occasionally, and certainly give a damn about our (perceived thoughts on ESPORTS when beneficial to them) but otherwise they’re cold and uncaring

[chilly granite]

player retention is clearly appauling, there have been a lot of new players trying the finals who haven't stuck around based on concurrents

Adding a killcam when the aim assist is so agressive makes players feel like there's a lot of cheaters, becasue the aim assist often looks extremely aimbotty

also makes people think that new console players are smurfs since they can beam

allowing aim assist in tournements is giga cringe

dash and invis both enable players to absolutely dominate and bully newer players in all modes, and a new player will not have enough understanding of the game to counter it (no to mention players who have laggy montiors, or no headphones)

While hit your shots better is a totally true, it shouldn't be the answer that new players are given becasue it's exclusionary/gatekeepy - there should be bettter strategies and counters for new players, that can be weak enough to not be viable in the highest level

simultaniously, light is too squishy for new players, leading to a game where it feels like heavy/medium are too weak, and light is op, but light is too hard, meaning tehy just give up (see literally all the light op posts in feedback despite the skilled player consesus)

this is worsened by certain balance decisions that make light much too fragile and unable to win fights even with an advatange, against the tankier classes.

The balance team doesn't seem to be approaching balance from a root cause analysis perspective, but rather just ductaping the holes, which is a huge problem

esports focus can be fine, but their current method with poor communicaitno makes the core casual playerbase feel abandoned

[indigo nexus]

The first claim confuses me, on what basis is that clear?

[chilly granite]

conccurent* not mau is down despite two arc raiders skin collabs

I mean, it may well be that litearlly no arc raiders players care about the collab skins or are trying the game, but I've also seen a LOT of low levels in my games (less than 10)

[indigo nexus]

the average concurrent users this month is up 6.2% compared to the previous period according to steamdb

[chilly granite]

+200 players lol so many

[indigo nexus]

which is actually unusual, since it's not a season start month

[chilly granite]

collab with a game with 500k conccurents

[indigo nexus]

+700 on steam, but the flat values are not relevant when considering player retention

[chilly granite]

down since season 8, evne with the +200 concureents or whatevere

solar, calcuate the amount of playtime needed for tutorial, and 3 games required for the collab, and see how many + conccurrent users that would be if it was every arc player

[indigo nexus]

that claim is correct

but since we don't have the metrics to compute player retention, you would need to show something very clear in order for the claim to make sense

[chilly granite]

doing bear minimum for the skin. Or actually, calculate with 1% of the arc player base

Im 99% sure that the conccurent user game from the bare minimum to get the skins, for some 1% of the arc playerbase, would be bigger than tthe concurrent gain

[indigo nexus]

This hypothetical does not seem very meaningful. I could conjecture that arc raiders was also the biggest source of loss in players recently to the game's credit if I wished, and thus exclude embark from blame.

[chilly granite]

I do think that's true, to be fair, finals player count dropped when arc raiders released

[sudden pewter]

Man if only we had relevant game data to back up any part of this, like an API of some sort

[chilly granite]

but at least one of the new players I added, hasn't logged in, past 4 days lol

[sudden pewter]

That’s another issue I didn’t mention. Lack of information. Or at least the intentional obfuscation of it. We can’t see our ping lest we see how poopy the servers are, we can’t even see damage numbers in-game

Is it really too much to ask for actual numerical values instead of bars to infer damage or effective range?

[indigo nexus]

ping wouldn't tell us much about the state of the servers, but it would be nice to display

[compact tundra]

I will say there is a good amount to say about new player retention from experience rather than numbers, numbers can be smurfed or not tell the full story, while personal experience tho flawed is at least experienced.

I have heard multiple people one of which being googs that when he tried to show his friends this game the match they got into was so sweaty that they never wanted to pick up the game again. And from my personal experience with bringing friends into the game, especially more casual shorter players, the only thing that helped them ease into the game was me carrying. And it took quite a while before they began to love the game on their own because of skill gap and no understanding of what is happening. The tutorial is completely lackluster and the average skill gap between a decently experienced player (not like a ranked player or anything) and new player is atrocious, and makes the game unwelcoming to new players

[sudden pewter]

Basic QoL is what it would be

[indigo nexus]

how the hell are you gonna personal experience such a comparison, you'd need to be measuring so much to get anything statistically meaningful

[compact tundra]

Statistics aren't everything. You can't measure how much fun I have in a game, yet you can experience that I am laughing and having fun. Numbers only tell so much and should only be a part of a greater puzzle

[chilly granite]

at some point, when nobody can provide contradictory evidence for an anecodte, you should probably just believe the anecdote @indigo nexus

[indigo nexus]

They are when you want to make claims about statistics.
(also, why not? if you can express something then it could be measured)

[chilly granite]

remove the line about statistics from my post and the rest is valid

like the % of posts in game feed back saying light OP alone tells a story

[indigo nexus]

not as long as it allows people to spam the same message over and over it doesn't!

[chilly granite]

you can literally count uniques only

[compact tundra]

Name a statistic I named or a statistic I disputed. I simply gave my experience and a recount of googs experience.

And if I sent you a clip how do you numerically draw out how much fun or engagement I had during said clip. Sure you can see I'm winning and probably having fun, or I'm losing and probably not having fun, but that's inferred knowledge and has no real statistical value

[indigo nexus]

the only way to collect meaningful information on controversial player opinions is in-game surveys, though

[sudden pewter]

Is the poor player retention controversial?

[indigo nexus]

You were talking about new player retention, which is a quantitative measure.

[sudden pewter]

I mean, could be this format of game just isn’t popular. 🤷‍♂️

[indigo nexus]

Not what I was talking about, as players we don't know that anyway

[chilly granite]

no it's not controversial, solar's just being a stickk in the mud

[sudden pewter]

True

[compact tundra]

It's a good quantitative measure only if we had an advanced system that could detect bot accounts, smurfs, and alt accounts. If the system can't accurately detect those then the numbers are flawed and experiences become useful to look at to check the numbers against

[indigo nexus]

We can't measure it anyway, but yes

however experiences require a mass collation of data to be useful

a few friends without even drawing points of comparison should be ignored, if you want to be remotely accurate.

[compact tundra]

They require a mass collection of data to be more accurate, not necessarily useful. Even looking at just one case of a poor new player experience can show potential areas of improvement as minor as they may be

[analog pewter]

healing poke meta sucks for the finals bc it undermines what makes the finals really exciting and dynamic. The specs and gadgets people are running aren't really interacting as much with the environment as they could be

IMO the game should be balanced and designed such that anything that interacts with destruction, fortification, and traversal should all be prioritized to be made strong options that competitive players can rely on.

Ideally every heavy spec is viable because they all exemplify different strengths of the finals' dynamism; winch for object manipulation, goo gun for fortification and creative strategy, CnS for destruction and breaching, and even mesh shield for its role in teamplay and countering long-range. Zipline should be more worth running, competitive with jump pad. Goo grenade should be a staple pick on most teams. Demat should be medium's best spec for the dynamism it brings. Sledge should have a place in the meta. Barricade should have a place in the meta and be more reliable. KS-23 should have a place in the meta. Thermal Bore should have a place in the meta. Gateway should remain in the meta.

I actually think giving light and heavy both healing options is in theory a really good idea because it could free up medium to not have to run healing beam and instead be able to run demat, but in practice it just means teams are stacking multiple healing sources to play around an immortal heavy

I don't know how you would make these things more viable, but I know that a more healthy and exciting finals meta would involve these things

[indigo nexus]

It'd be a bit more useful for those, but that wasn't the claim I was disagreeing with.

[chilly granite]

I for sure see the most lvl1s in my games out of annyone here, and I see them disconnect mid game a lot.... They might not be uninstalling, but they problably arent just going to queue again

[analog pewter]

god i just want demat to be good again

[sudden pewter]

Demat is good, just buggy and Embark works too slowly

[stoic garden]

oh btw didn't they say demat saved the whole dematter location and reverted ALL of it when right clicked? it hasn't been doing that for me very well lately

[sudden pewter]

I’m not a tech wizard but hard could it possibly be to:

• Make sure all demated walls get rematted
• Make sure a charge is only consumed when a wall gets demated

[sudden pewter]

Correct, it’s still bugged

[stoic garden]

sucks

[sudden pewter]

Yes

[stoic garden]

embark try to make game work as intended challenge (impossible)

[sudden pewter]

Swedish studio, they get 4 days off a week and extended holidays

[compact tundra]

Wait so the helpful boost demat was supposed to get to counter act the -1 charge and I think slower pullout speed doesn't even work?

[chilly granite]

they had a post about balancing more slowly back in s1 because people were compalinga about balance cadence

but that was when game was new, and meta hadn't settled, and they were making huge changes. Now they're making more moderate changes, and the meta is stale as hell, and they're still balancing on the slow old cadence

[stoic garden]

YEA I HATE THAT

[sudden pewter]

Sorry, they need to “let the dust settle” even when it comes to fixing bugs apparently

[analog pewter]

they definitely need to fix the demat consuming charges while dematting nothing. they also need to fix the delay. spec is so fucking unreliable right now and frustrating to use

[compact tundra]

Bro even back in season 2 and 3 we got weekly balance changes, they were just less impactful than in season 1 unless it was a big change like the new season or mid season patches

[stoic garden]

Lowkey demat was balanced when the demat area was smaller

[stoic garden]

the first one was seemingly fixed, had no issues myself when i used it

[chilly granite]

the post about changing the balance cadence might have been season 3 then, I can't rmeber

[stoic garden]

52 damage lh1 reaction:

[alpine sphinx]

love getting shittalked by people going 1 3 5 and 0 3 5 while i'm 5 2 3 and they are actively running to the cashouts that are 10 seconds away from completion

[stoic garden]

happened to me in ranked

i just tell them i love them and support them

[compact tundra]

Bottom boards always got something to say bro, it never fails

[alpine sphinx]

he said that me playing a light is useless and that they only go for kills anyway - he was also playing a light

[stoic garden]

my least favorite ones are those who say "you have 312 combat score" but they got like triple my deaths and zero support score 🤔

[chilly granite]

^^

[stoic garden]

it is very funny when i end up getting more kills than them tho

it usually doesn't happen because neither my pc nor me are very good at the game but still

[chilly granite]

had a guy flaming me when I had been doing more damage than him in every fight, actually delaying cashout and the like, and he was just stealing kills and doing chip damage with v9s so had ahigher score

and he was telling me to switch off bow lol

[stoic garden]

natural selection will take care of them

[chilly granite]

next game I griefed him out of the first round

he was on an enemy team - I made sure his team couldn't get secnd place

[sudden pewter]

Smallest dogs bark the loudest 100%

[indigo nexus]

oh, that would make a great retort

[chilly granite]

@indigo nexus alternatively, I think we can assume since embark has run two arc raiders collab events in about onemonth, that the first was not as sucesful as they hoped

[analog pewter]

ive had the issue as recently as last week so idk

[indigo nexus]

Would this not be backwards if anything? Why would an unsuccessful promotion make you more inclined to do more promotions

if it worked well I would expect them to milk them dry

[chilly granite]

if it was successful, why waste resources on giving away free cossmetics when you can delay and do that next time the finals needs an injection of players?

[bronze totem]

damn

[sudden pewter]

Okay but what if we mandated capitol punishment for spamming #👂┇game-feedback I wanna see blood I’m done with some of these MF’s

[indigo nexus]

because it wouldn't be a waste. It would be gauged to be efficient, and you can still do it again later.

[sudden pewter]

Is 35 messages such a tall order you go to every channel and leave one liners like a wild doe would turds?

[bronze totem]

damn

just dont mind me and stop being a real turd

[indigo nexus]

his roast was pretty good

[bronze totem]

agreed

[sudden pewter]

In my perfect gamer utopia your thick skull would be used to shatter the glass ceiling

[compact tundra]

Preach king 💅

[sudden pewter]

Keep spam in the appropriate channels such as #💥┇spawn-point or #⚡┇the-finals-chat

[chilly granite]

you can see the bump in players from the first collab was 12k -> 21k meanwhile the bump on this collab was 16k->17k

[sudden pewter]

We have standards here, as a newcomer you aren’t expected to know them, but you are expected to learn them.

[chilly granite]

most of the increase in concurrents in the finals is probably from finals players have have expereinced most of the content in arc coming back, rather than new players coming to finals

average concurrents dropped like a rock after arc raiders release and even now aren't up to where they were

do I ping marketing guy again and ask him for some stats

that's a joke I'm not that stupid

[sudden pewter]

Nah do it, mods don’t say not too and have on occasion even endorsed it (wish I was joking)

[compact tundra]

Na, I'm debating on whether or not to go full scorched earth over this latest balance patch. Doubt anything would come of it tho

[abstract acorn]

I don't mind the player counts if other players find a completely different game (Arc) to enjoy a bit more regularly, as long as Embark does something to maintain and/or bring in new players. But that's up in the air.

[bronze totem]

agreed man

[compact tundra]

If people in here seem hostile its cause this is a smaller chat with a group of regulars who hang out in here, so a lot of them keep notifications on for this chat and get upset when they are being spammed and would rather not mute the channel

[indigo nexus]

for the 24hr period after both we had peaks of:
16k -> 18.6k
17.1k -> 18.1k

But... it just looks like it's because the first was on a friday and the second on a thursday. You can't clearly see them above the regular weekly variations.

[chilly granite]

my numbers were comparing to prior week

[indigo nexus]

the last promotion was two days ago, how does that work?

[chilly granite]

not future week

[compact tundra]

We have 2 number goblins now, God rest my brain power

[indigo nexus]

how are you determining the "bump", then

[chilly granite]

count on day - count on day-7

[indigo nexus]

that would make them
16.2k -> 16k
15.1k -> 17.1k

I don't think we have any meaningful ability to resolve the impacts of them

[indigo nexus]

huh, you're talking about two completely different promotions to me

16th and 29th of january are the only ones I'm cognisant of

[chilly granite]

this should be the arc raiders play 3 games and get skin
idk if date is wrong?

[indigo nexus]

that's just the season 9 launch?

[chilly granite]

I used the message i got in game
to date it, idk if that was the wrong date

[indigo nexus]

the 21.4k spike is the S9 release

[compact tundra]

Those aren't trustworthy and I've had me and my friend get the same message (the one about ranked rs being adjusted) a month apart from eachother

[chilly granite]

ok
so the date I got my message is fucked, sorry

I mean, that's even worse, the concurrents didn't even increase lmao

[indigo nexus]

there has been an increase around that time period, it's just not resolvable on a day-by-day basis

it is small though, the cause of it is unknown of course

[chilly granite]

I would expect a cross promotion with a game with 400k concurrents to move the dial in a visable way on a dayy-by day basiss

[indigo nexus]

mid-season gains is actually unprecedented prior to this season, though end-of-season gains have happened before

[chilly granite]

message in arc raiders was dec 16, I will say I forsure didn't get the message in january

OK, that makes sense, the previous week was realease, so it's useless info, but week after was only 13k vs 17k on the day the arc mail went out

16th dec is the right date

17k concurrents the day of and 13k a weeek later

12k 2 weeks before and 13k 2 weeks after

monday was 15.5k week after season release and 16k two weeks/3weeks, so roughly 700 concurrents from arc raiders

and it's been dropping ever since

so player attrition is outpacing the gain for sure

if that's new players or old players is not something we can work out

Ok, not to try to bully you, but is the reason the repeater keeps skipping nerfs becasue you/other embark mediums are bad with it in internal testing? @haughty oak

[compact tundra]

@chilly granite
@indigo nexus

Hey you guys are good at data collection and number shit. Would you by chance be able to tell me the number of viewers the majors had on the final day, doesn't have to be the average or total, just a decent probable number would work

[indigo nexus]

I don't know how I would find that out in any meaningful way

[compact tundra]

On twitch and YouTube obviously

[compact tundra]

Fair, I watched it on YouTube and the YouTube stream had around 1,400 views when I was there but that was only 1 of o think 2 streams

[chilly granite]

twitch is annyoing

there are data agregators who should have those numbers for investors and such

the top youtube videos have a combined roughly 400k views, the live viewership is less easy to find

not sure how accurate it is, but peak viewership for tgm is supposedly 30k, and that's believable - half trackmania

same as smite

smite is even more dead than the finals, so 30k is very believable hahaha

also, "the finals grand major" is unsearchable

[chilly granite]

peak viewers was 31k ish live, if you include the crowd irl

@tiny relic btw, if you're gonna call the game "the finals" then you need to have a more creative name for the esport event than "the grand major" - dota gets away with "the international" becasue you can just clarify by saying dota international, but "the finals grand major" is just entirely generic without clarifying video game

man if by monday we dont get some answers im gonna riot

I'm having a real hard time holding out that long

[sudden pewter]

How much of those live viewers were just there for drops 💀

[cosmic berry]

WE NEED TRACKING DART ON MEDIUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please i love tracking dart sm but im a medium main 😔 it probably wouldn't mess up the meta but itd be so fun i wanna track people then chase them down with my jump pad pleasae🥺🥺🥺

[chilly granite]

bro I don't think anyone at all is worried about tracking dart messsing up the meta

[sudden pewter]

Tracking dart would make Medium too support oriented and make the house of carefully balanced cards Embark has placed over the last two years crumble. Best we can do it’s another TGM sorry

[chilly granite]

🤣

[compact tundra]

I'm so fucking pissed, my feedback post got blocked for daring to say the word meat but I still received the 6h cooldown. I'ma start using the channel to check for filters

[chilly granite]

post it here and I'll repost with attribution

[compact tundra]

I'm so confused as to what it's blocking, I removed the word meat and it's still blocking it

[chilly granite]

DM it to me

[sudden pewter]

Just use #💥┇spawn-point it’s pointless sludge anyway

[compact tundra]

The finals devs
Why is new player QoL and retention such a small priority for you. You spend a vast majority of your time, effort, and as I must assume money, towards esports, something that only can seem to raise the skill gap between new players, and even decently experienced players. We see gradual slow, yet continuous, loss of players. multiple entire game modes removed for the sake of que times, a complete lack of any kind of level or skill based matchmaking, and the overlapping of vastly different ranks in ranked cashout seems to imply a low enough player count to justify not dividing the player base even for good reason like keeping content enjoyed by players and making ranked matches more fair to the competitors. Yet we have seen almost no effort put into actually building this game's player base outside of bandaid fixes like bonus skins for arc raiders players.

Where is this games marketing btw, I've never seen any ads, promotions, creator sponsorship, and there's not even creator codes which to me seems to be an industry standard.

You're so willing to slobber all over the esports orgs, where's that dedication to the creators many players enjoy watching and who help boost player numbers however much they are able. What have these orgs and teams with sponsored esports bundles done for the game that the creators haven't?

• the tutorial sucks
• new player experience is awful and the absolute hog riding of esports only makes the experience worse and the skill gap grow
• lack of content pushes casuals out and leaves people asking why are they still here playing the same exact game with the same exact meta 3 fucking seasons in a row. In a game that has become so esports focused that the meta is all you see
• lack of consistent free rewards that aren't locked behind the like 3 LTM we get a season are awful. The sponsors are WAY TOO GRINDY, the free battle pass is always MID AF, the LTMs are grindy as hell

Oh shit it was the phrase me-at riding

[compact tundra]

Sorry I I'll next time, I was locked in to figuring out what bulshit was inhibiting my ability to piss and moan

[compact tundra]

@chilly granite
It is ready my son

[chilly granite]

reposted for you

[compact tundra]

Huge thank you man, I fear this game is approaching the bad ending and I'm going down with the ship pissing and moaning

[chilly granite]

hahaha I will be beside you

[sudden pewter]

Playing devils advocate here:

• Esport push is quite recent (last season)
• SBMM would kill “casual” modes because now you have to sweat.
• Axing unpopular modes saves queue times and gives devs more time to focus on more important things rather than maintain them
• OFC Embark would be hesitant to deal with prominent content creators. Remember Dr.Disrespect?
• They can increase the marketing budget by x200% and it’ll do nothing if new player experience is still shitty.
• Sponsors are slow because they’re supposed to be Multi-Season grinds that show dedication to a sponsor. (Not as applicable now with S9)

[sudden pewter]

This shits nothing to me man I played both TF2’s

[compact tundra]

That's fair, I actually see some correlation between the final rn and the soft death of team fortress 2.

Comms got turned off for most players
Focus on sweaties and esports
Slowly shrinking balance changes/updates

[sudden pewter]

The Finals has always been 20 years behind in terms of comms. The only saving grace is the comms wheel. Everything else is Neolithic

Wanna mute someone?

• Esc
• Open Social Menu
• Mute
  Are they spamming Wheel commands? Get fucked, can’t do anything about it

Clubs are also tacked on. Nothings been done with them since introduction

[indigo nexus]

“vast majority of time, effort, … money, towards esports” - what?? Where does this come from?

We do not see a continuous loss of players. There was an upward curve, then a dip at arc raiders launch, and now it seems to be increasing again.

Complete lack of skill based matchmaking seems quite false.

Personally I’ve seen quite a few ads for the game, but if you already play the game then you are not the target audience for the ads :p

[sudden pewter]

But don’t worry guys, we’ve got an intrusive AI chat moderation that can flag you for saying Nono words like “Lmao, Fart, and Tiananmen Square”

[compact tundra]

C4tter I'm so sorry for what I'm about to put you through. My ability to Yap is immense

[compact tundra]

And I'll gladly debate, the whole point of my shit storm is to maybe get someone from embark to argue with me and actually give us some info

• it is recent but it has completely dominated the game so far. And let's not forget that the game for like the first 5 seasons was far more balanced around competitive play and it slowly had to be tuned down longer respawn times, casual used reserves, guns were always being tweaked and nudged into directions (tho back then they at least tried to make more than this boring meta viable). They had to tone it down cause it greatly effected how fun the game was and now we're for a 3rd time falling into their trap, the first time was during the close alpha's/beta's, second was season 3
• I'm not arguing for SSBM really. I don't hate the idea but really we just need to not throw new players in with experienced players, and new player lobbies would really help with the new player experience if combined with a Smurf deterrent
• one I would dispute this "unpopular" idea. They had lower player counts than other modes but we're by no means dead. Bank it was incredibly popular on xbox and even after it was removed it was very common to see community post on Xbox and game clips of people playing bank it, LFG post on Xbox for private bank it matches were a thing and there were certainly groups still playing it even after its removal. Terminal attack was the main gamemode for an entire season and had its own ranked player base and fans. I never had problems queuing up for either of these game modes and they still had regular players even up to their removal. And if you want further proof look at #👂┇game-feedback and almost every day you'll see someone begging for there addition back into the game. And even I do acknowledge their lower player counts compared to other modes, that doesn't justify their removal. Just cause their fan base is smaller doesn't mean we shouldn't respect those players & why they play the game

[compact tundra]

• this point to me would make no sense if it came from someone who keeps up with esports. Esports players are just as likely to be absolute dirtbags as content creators, a Valorant player just like a few weeks ago got busted dating a 14yo who he new was 14 and even said in their DMs that he loves that preteen p***y. There is no guarantee that these pros are good people either, yet they get their bundles. And you could say well they hide behind a team so they'll take the blame but the team won't, but there's no way to tell who or how many people are degenerates, and all it takes is some bad pr and an org is dead.
• that's a fair critique, and I agree. The marketing budget isn't my problem, my problem is the new player experience, this game receives enough glaze and hype to pull in new players, but if their first time playing the game is frustrating, then they're not gonna stick around. The new player experience should be on the top of embarks to do list next to the servers so the game doesn't start to flounder and slow down. A wheel of new players is what brings in people who will buy the battle pass and skins, which in turn keeps the lights on, they need to really work on how the game comes across to new players, because a stale meta won't kill a game, a focus on esports won't kill a game, ignoring certain play styles or minority player groups won't kill a game, not bringing in new players will kill a game.
• even if that was entirely true the grind for them right now is insane. I have completely completed the battle pass and I'm not even level 20 in isuel-t's sponsorship, the level of grind required for those things is insane for the rewards you get. Honestly that wouldn't even be bad if we just got more regular, realistically grindable, free content. I'm not saying you make a ton of free skins that ignore the monetization, obviously embark needs money, but making being free to play more worth it I think would be a good change in the long term

[compact tundra]

I will debate you, but later I'm going to grab dinner I just got off work

[unkempt moss]

Are we doom posting in here?

[sudden pewter]

My latest goth bedfellow gave me Influenza type A so when I wake up I’ll respond

[compact tundra]

That's absolutely fair, I sent you 2 max character messages

[unkempt moss]

Why exactly is skill based matchmaking bad?

[serene glade]

Cuz Aidan wants to never lose at video games or else he'll get angry

[sudden pewter]

coughing up blood teary eyed
I ain’t reading allat
dies
||gimme a bit||

[sudden pewter]

SBMM (in theory) makes balanced matches. But the problem with SBMM is 3-fold:

• 1
  How do we measure skill? K/D/A? Well alright, fair enough. But what about support score? It objective score? What if a player is a god tier Heavy but a dogshit Light? What if someone goes 0/7/20 but they have a support score that’s +20,000?
• 2
  Queue times. The community is already separated by gamemode, adding another filter to that will make the queues worse.
• 3
  Leniency. Let’s say you’re in a low pop region or playing during non-prime hours. To actually put you in a game, the matchmaker lessens the restrictions to ensure you find a match before you quit. How far can it tip in either direction and still be fair? If we used RS averages the MM could see x3 Silver players with x1 Gold and x2 Bronze as potentially balanced.

People already claim the game is nothing but a sweatfest, but with SBMM it’ll be mandatory because if it’s working properly, players would be around your skill level. Which for me means I can’t play Minigun because every enemy will know to avoid LoS and to peak corners with semi auto burst options. I can’t be silly with spear because they’ll punish my approach. Etc. etc.

[sudden pewter]

Not done reading but ranked TA almost killed the fucking game.

[muted condor]

I just realized something else they could have done to dome instead of the pointless health nerf
Let data reshaper destroy it

[chilly granite]

sbmm tends to be win/loss only, with a hidden elo based on that win/loss

but this is a pretty bad metric because you can have people who don't play objective, lose all their games, but still shit on new playesr and make it anti-fun

I think a better way to resolve the matchmaking problem is to just reduce the skill floor of a lot of stuff and, minimize the power level of things vs weak players

This is where my opinions on dash come from. The skill floor of dash is fairly high, because you need to not grief your own aim when you dash everywhere, which most new players will not be able to do. Simultaniously, the skill ceiling isn't that high, so dash isn't enoguh to make light actually good in pro games. But dash allows a skilled player to be immortal vs a weak player, which is not cool.

Invis had a low skill floor and low skill ceiling, and obscene powerlevel aganst new players, but now they've nerfed it, it has a high skill floor and low ceiling, because you need to be much more aware of the level of sound and visibility you have. Simultaniously, it's incredibly punishing to new players and and doesn't have a very high skill ceiling.

that's why you see me asking for both to be nerfed, and light to be given extra hp instead. extra hp allows light to be competateive without relying on tools that are excessively hard for new players to counter, and lowers the skill floor for playing light as a whole

grapple by contrast is much easier for new players to punish, although it has the problem of a very high skill floor and probably slightly too low skill ceiling too, although at least it has a much higher skill ceiling than dash or invis. Giving it a airjump (like the double jump event) would help wtih both skill floor and skill ceiling imho.

[kindred gorge]

how muchdamage does tracking dart do

[chilly granite]

5

[sudden pewter]

It already does (when within the dome)

[kindred gorge]

I think breach charge should damage dome maybe that's just me

[sudden pewter]

Data Reshaper would become meta overnight if it was possible to delete it outside the bubble and Lights wouldn’t need to bring glitch anymore because Medium can reshape -250 EHP

[kindred gorge]

thermal bore i mean sorry

[chilly granite]

the health nerf is good, dome counterplay is a fabulous exammple of not having obvious counterplay to new players and being excessively powerful against new players

and dome is a bullshit gadget anyway

[chilly granite]

and light would be dead again 🤣

but yeha, it's never a heavy you see going 30-0 in a tdm lobby vs new players, it's always a light, even the ruby heavies die a lot

meanwhile light isn't competateively viable without ebing a hard counter to heavy

Always a dash light, even

[unkempt moss]

This makes sense. I suppose I already play within some sort of SBMM since I only play ranked. But even then its not close to my actual skill level. If playing seriously we are technically "top" players, but we usually hover between top of silver to bottom of plat due to playing stupid loadouts and a trying to have fun with them.

[sudden pewter]

Mind there’s certainly pros to SBMM as well. I’d rather wait an additional 20m for a ranked match where my teammates are actually decent, than risk my personal rank dropping because I got paired with two teamates -5 ranks below me

[chilly granite]

I don't understand why we have cashout and ranked as seperate game modes

[static coral]

hj

[unkempt moss]

Isnt cashout using the world tour events?

[chilly granite]

cashout is still a bad competateive mode without them, so I don't see the point in removing them

cashout is also a bad unranked mode, as performance depends so mcuh on teamplay and relative skill of playres (3v3 games in general)

[rigid fiber]

isnt that the point of team games?

[unkempt moss]

I suppose with a proper functioning ranked mode then you could have mo SBMM, or very lenient.

[rigid fiber]

and an unranked mode allows warm up for those looking to play ranked

[chilly granite]

In CSGO, for example, casual was 10v10 instead of 5v5, if you wanted 5v5, you played ranked

[broken mulch]

cashouts a fun mode tho

[chilly granite]

I don't thnk you need to warmup gamesense tbh, only really mechancial sense, which can easily be done in any mode

and tbh point break is a great "casual cashout" gamemmode

[broken mulch]

itd be lame if comp was tdm or smth

even if tdm tends to have less luck involved

i agree with point break its a great mode

[rigid fiber]

thats true but if you are solo queuing and you dont want to risk elo, you could look for a team/teammate in unranked and see if they want to swap modes

[unkempt moss]

I think its as simple as Cashout is THE FINALS™

[chilly granite]

point break fills the requirements of a casual mode: Enough players than individual performances aren't too big of a deal, and a single skilled players won't ruin the game, while benefiting teamplay without teamplay being super immportant/a single player ebing able to grief

nobody gets mad at a medium skipping defib or a dagger player on their team in point break, but they do in casual cashout, because cashout is not a casual format

[rigid fiber]

in regards to cashout in ranked, I think that it works best because its a combo of quick cash and head to head, while the other modes dont match quite as well

[chilly granite]

head2head is the most appropriate for a ranked mode

matchmaking would be way bettter because you only need two teams of 3 with relatively close skill levels
cashout ends as a head2head anyway
it can be head2head final round ruleset

[rigid fiber]

thats why itsin the final round, but if you get lucky and have an easy matchup in head to head then its afree game, while cashout is much more competetive as the game goes on

[chilly granite]

I mean, ruby teams literally grief the second best team to get an easy final round

that was literally the meta

thats gonna screw matchmaking unbelieveably hard

[rigid fiber]

so if the second best team is griefed, the better team moves on while they stay put, and its the same thing as being hardstuck in any other game

[chilly granite]

2nd seed often loses mmr for a 3rd or 4th place finish and depending on the game, it's fairly likely they'll be griefed into 4th

[rigid fiber]

so i think it soesnt matter because they progress and get better while staying the same rank, and they can become the best, creating a cycle kinda

[chilly granite]

you're not hardstuck in any other game becasue two teams collude to gatekeep you

[rigid fiber]

but if you arent the best, you dont win, and you dont rank up

and until yopu become the best, you will have more trouble ranking up

[chilly granite]

you do understand why collusion is different from losing in a fair fight right??

you might be the first best team, but if the second best team colludees with the third best team, they can gatekeep you out

The requirment isn't to be "better than 2nd best team" it's to "be so good you can win vs 2 teams"

[rigid fiber]

yes, but what im saying is that the 3rd and fourth best teams, while they rank up, their skill stays at a lower level and the better teams stay better. its unfair, but its the only way that a multi team game could be played

[chilly granite]

now this is excellent as a gameshow event, its' fun to play, but it's terrible for a competative game or a ranked mode

requiring the ranked mode be a multi team game is a bad opinion

or rather, if it is to be the ranked mode, it shoud be qucik cash, wehre there is only 1 winner

[rigid fiber]

i agree that its tough and unfair, but i dont think that head 2 head works as comp and there are no other alternatives

a new gamemode perhaps?

[chilly granite]

so that collusion can't benefit two teams

[rigid fiber]

agreed

[chilly granite]

rubies would probaly riot if quick cash became the comp mode, but itd make a better esport than cashout, and collusion would lose benefit

[rigid fiber]

i dont think quick cash works either, because its too... quick

[chilly granite]

qucik cash ruleset would need to be revised

[rigid fiber]

a lucky wipe/ third party and you win the match

[chilly granite]

final round ruleset needs to revised too
first to two cashouts is not cool

[rigid fiber]

yeah

[chilly granite]

final round should be first to 75k and give tap/kill gold and have wipe loss gold

qc first to 35 same

[broken mulch]

i dunno bout quick cash cause that seems like itd add even more rng than cashout no?

[rigid fiber]

maybe a mode similar to cashout but with and increased team size in order to limit the effect that so queue has

[unkempt moss]

I do think they will go to head to head for ranked eventually. I just think its a bad decision.

[broken mulch]

suddenly the best strat is js to let the other 2 teams fight

and only take the safest fights possible

[chilly granite]

I mean, head2head ranked is the correct decision from an esport perspective and competative perspective

correct form a finals perspective is a different discussion

[sudden pewter]

The design flaws of The Finals are the same thing that gives it flavor unfortunately, seeing how it’s designed from the ground up as a team game where no single player is expected to do everything means that individual performance is always at least in some small way affected by one’s team for better or worse.

[broken mulch]

i agree with head2head

[rigid fiber]

i think head 2 head in esports is fine, but not ranked

[chilly granite]

4v4v4v4 cashout would help make cashout different from ranked and a better casual gamemmode

[broken mulch]

i dont think its as fun as 4 teams but if its esports it should be more abt skill than fun

[chilly granite]

and servers/client can support 8v8 so that woudl be fine

[rigid fiber]

like qualifiers could be cashout and the main competitions could be h2h

[unkempt moss]

I dont watch nor care about esports so they can make it as terrible as they want.

[rigid fiber]

exactly

[broken mulch]

why are they focusing on esports tho

[chilly granite]

nah quals gotta be h2h too, collusion risk is way too high

in dota sponsors aren't even allowed to have two squads because of collusion risk with normal tournament brackets

they had active collusion problems

[sudden pewter]

Money, they’re generally disingenuous about the actual reasons because this is the official statement

[rigid fiber]

but thats the whole thing, collusion can go any way, and if you make the qualifiers 2-3 cashout games, it balances

[unkempt moss]

No clue. There obviously seems to be some disconnect between them and the players and embark about it as they dropped a dogshit patch and followed it up with esports like it wouldn't make a lot of people angry.

[sudden pewter]

“New chapter in esports history” what the fuck were they smoking?

[chilly granite]

incidental collusion in casual ranked games, can go anyway

intentinoal collusion in a tournement, will not

[broken mulch]

no way esports is making them money

ig the esports merch?

[sudden pewter]

Nexon covers it in all likelihood. And investors don’t realize the viewership was propped up by casual players farming drops

I personally can’t conceive a non-monetary incentive to suddenly pivot to ESPORTS out of the blue

[chilly granite]

@unkempt moss is there a reason you care about ranekd existing as opposed to cashout

[broken mulch]

i think ranked is more fun since i dont like most of the events and also i like how team wipes work

[chilly granite]

tbh I never got why casual cashout dont have wipe loss

[broken mulch]

yea it js makes comebacks less likely which seems like smth u might want for ranked but not for casual

[rigid fiber]

yes. also the coin system is fun especially in ranked where you can intentionally team wipe if youre screwed

wrong relply mb

[chilly granite]

yeah, if anything, ranked should not ahve tw loss

[unkempt moss]

I think Cashout is the core identity of the game, and ranked should reflect that. I think the day anything but cashout becomes ranked they've lost the plot.

[chilly granite]

I mean, almost certainly every mode has a hidden rank

[unkempt moss]

I'd be fine with a ranked h2h, but not at the cost of losing ranked cashout.

[sudden pewter]

Cashout is 100% The Finals Vanilla. It’s what (theoretically) the rest of the game is balanced around

[broken mulch]

man i know ive mentioned this before but god why is smoke's cooldown so long

u p much get it once per cashout assuming u dont wipe/coin

[chilly granite]

also why tf do cooldowns reset on death

[sudden pewter]

The only instance we have where Embark pivoted the ranked platform for competitive play was with TA (clearly they took some inspiration from CSGO) and it nearly killed the fucking game. H2H is my preferred gamemode compared to QuickCash but preexisting ranked players would likely shit the pants because H2H is significantly more approachable and potentially awards similar rewards.

[broken mulch]

is that a bad thing?

[chilly granite]

have you see the pro meta?

[broken mulch]

nope

[chilly granite]

it's to nullify, goo, glitch the last enemy to delay teamwipe, so you have more time for your own cooldowns to come back

[broken mulch]

oh

i thought that was for stalling the cashout

[unkempt moss]

So you think H2H should be the ranked mode?

[chilly granite]

you hide the gas and explosive barrels so they can kill themselves

[chilly granite]

stall is for everythign; vault, teamwipes, revives, cashout

[sudden pewter]

Do I think it should be the official ranked gamemode? No.
Do I think it could be a ranked gamemode? Sure.

[chilly granite]

fair

[unkempt moss]

Do you think it ought to be the ranked mode?

[chilly granite]

I just think with such a small playrebase, splitting it with so many modes is trolling

I'd be fine with a casual 4v4 cashout and a ranked cashout mode, but cashout/ranked are way too similar to be worht dividing the playerbase

[sudden pewter]

I’d like to see more ranked modes in general, exclusive rewards be damned. But that might make more issues than it solves

[chilly granite]

h2h should always have been a ranked mode as soon as it became offical

[sudden pewter]

I’m fairly confident in my mechanical skills, why would I play ranked QC when H2H provides an environment I’d flourish in?

[unkempt moss]

I will always say that people playing ranked doing it for the rewards are playing for the wrong reason.

[chilly granite]

5v5v5 quick cash sounds fucking legit

[sudden pewter]

Or vice versa. Take sniper lights, why would they play anything other than Ranked Powershift?

[chilly granite]

I mean, I played rank last season for the gold sr84

that's why last season was the first season I got gold, every previous season I only played placements lol

[sudden pewter]

Very brave, also very correct. But realistically it is what draws many players. I too only want to even consider playing ranked to get a Diamond badge I can flaunt and say “Hey, I’m Diamond. I’m good at the game so clearly you have to listen to me”

[broken mulch]

i think a p decent chunk of players js wanna see how high they can go

and even if the number doesnt mean anything it does feel sorta nice to see it go up

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, but that also plays into player toxicity. Why is my number going down because X Y or Z played like shit?

[chilly granite]

that's teh other thing, giving ruby to people who top 500 the other leaderboards is fine tbh, make it a different shade, or even make it amethyst , but having a greater variety of skin rewards for different modes would also help reduce weird nerdy ranked bullshit

[broken mulch]

sure thats true but thats also p much baked into ranked as a concept

[unkempt moss]

I can understand that, but as soon as someone brings their rank up in a discussion I disregard their opinion entirely.

[sudden pewter]

Obviously it’s a team game, clearly. But it’s hard to explain “it’s designed that way” to a frustrated player that literally couldn’t do anything because teammates couldn’t shoulder their weight

[chilly granite]

like there's amethyst for like eliminations badge, emerald for wt, and ruby for ranked, what do we top 50tdmers get??

[sudden pewter]

The moment I get Diamond I’m going to become insufferable and I’m apologizing now

(Watch me get placed into silver or something calling it now)

[chilly granite]

@unkempt moss i'm silver disregard my opinion please

tbf I've hit gold like 5 times in the past week, I need to lock in and Ill get my gold for sure

[broken mulch]

placing into silver is p common even if ur good

[sudden pewter]

I certainly don’t believe that

[chilly granite]

I'm pretty sure max placement is low gold

[rigid fiber]

i got lpaced into gold and i think im below average

[broken mulch]

i got low gold after 4 of the best matches of my life

[sudden pewter]

But I’ve also never touched ranked in this game, so I can’t argue

[broken mulch]

yea im pretty garbage i js played heal beam medium and got competent teammates

[sudden pewter]

DirtyBomb Ranked ruined me physically, spiritually, and mentally

[chilly granite]

placement matches are 4x matches, I think startign elo is 15000, max reward is around 1500, giving a max placement of 21000

[rigid fiber]

yeah im demat repeater so im not highly skilled

[sudden pewter]

D Day Vets probably emerged less scarred than I did from that ordeal

[broken mulch]

my aim isnt all that great and i like healbeam so i js do that

[unkempt moss]

After my highest ranked season I placed gold. It wouldn't surprise me if silver was common.

[chilly granite]

^^

max placement is gold for sure, each season the rubies start gold and have to work their way up

[analog pewter]

nah i placed gold 2 which is like 26500
or something

[chilly granite]

there's probably a 2x or 3x modifier for placement matches

dota uses 4x modifier for placements

[rigid fiber]

yeah i placed mid 20k's

[chilly granite]

but I saw a diamond who placed gold this season

I think I was watching his twitch or smthn? it was a while ago

[sudden pewter]

I’d be happy with High Plat if nothing else. Diamond is the goal and Ruby is very obtainable but it requires a full stack

[chilly granite]

I'm lokoing forwadr to the rage posting when catter's hardstuck silver

[sudden pewter]

You can be super mid at the game but if you communicate Ruby shouldn’t be that difficult

[broken mulch]

my goal is js gonna be the rank above mine till diamond cause im not doin ruby

[sudden pewter]

I’d like to hit Ruby but I ain’t maintaining that shiii. I already work 6 days a week I don’t need another job

[unkempt moss]

I'm excited to see if your opinions on things change when you hit the higher ranks

[rigid fiber]

c4tter i thik=nk you might overestimate the ease of ranked

[chilly granite]

hahaha yeah

[broken mulch]

i dont think u can be mid and hit ruby

without getting carried

[sudden pewter]

Naw bro JFJ hit Ruby and Ive seen his streams (no shade)

[unkempt moss]

You can be mid in some things but not in everything.

[chilly granite]

yeah

[analog pewter]

in gold 2 and it is already pretty tough. i think it's also that the ranked pool is so much smaller and new players aren't entering ranked rn that people who would be platinum in more active seasons are in silver and gold rn due to steeper competition

[unkempt moss]

No idea who that is.

[sudden pewter]

Good, death to streamers

[rigid fiber]

damn

[broken mulch]

why we hatin on streamers

[sudden pewter]

Whose we?

[unkempt moss]

You have to be great in something to hit the top ranks. At least one thing.

[rigid fiber]

what if that one thing is insulting my teammates when i do something wrong

[broken mulch]

what if that one thing is paying rubies to carry me

[chilly granite]

yeha, it can be any one thing, but u gotta have an x factor, and then you also need that x factor to be effective vs your enemies, which can be untrue if you're unlucky lol

[rigid fiber]

question, do you actually main bow?

[chilly granite]

I used to be LEM as deagle only in csgo

I did two things - I got one kill 90% of rounds, and I gave my team drops of guns, so we always had an economic advantage

[chilly granite]

yes

current loadout is grapple/bow/null/flash/(frag|smoke|h+|gateway|sonar)

I'm really not sold on my last slot but I've leveling up my frag for skin most of the time

[rigid fiber]

scary to go against if u hit shots

[broken mulch]

surprisingly few people use the bow considering its p good

[chilly granite]

not really

the bow is outclassed in most ways by alternatives

[rigid fiber]

agreed there

[broken mulch]

could be worse, could be sword

[chilly granite]

CQB peforamnce is about 1/2 as good as the matter.

Long range performance is about 1/2 as good as the sr84

midrange perforamnce is outclassed by ARN

[broken mulch]

im not a fan of camera lock i dont think it was a good change at all

[chilly granite]

the benefit the bow brings is it's ability to fight at any range, which is very nice for me, because I like to play at a very varied range

[rigid fiber]

same with repeater

[broken mulch]

making it an m1 stick also sucked

[chilly granite]

the bow only really sucks at ultralong range, which the sr84 also sucks in, and the best option is to play repeater, bfr or arn because BALANCE

[broken mulch]

doesnt repeater have some p big damage falloff at super long range?

[sudden pewter]

I make a comment and the unwashed masses flood in here to tear at my entrails but this dude does it in #👂┇game-feedback and gets nothing smh my head

[chilly granite]

oh my, 3 hits to kill a light with hitscan, meanwhile the same light needs to land a projectile headshot + projectile bodyshot or 3 projectile bodyshots to kill me, oh no, so much falloff, so bad

same with sr84, projectile at 40m

[sudden pewter]

Yakub has placed trials before me to ensure I am worthy of Agartha

[unkempt moss]

What comment did you make that got you attacked?

[chilly granite]

my best measurement for travel time to 80m, is .8s

do you htink you can hit a medium with a projectile travel time of .8s

[broken mulch]

has anything ever actually come of game feedback

[chilly granite]

no

[broken mulch]

also yea i didnt know if the drop off was significant or not i js knew it existed

[chilly granite]

my curent plan is to wait until monday and then @ the relevent embarks until they listen

[broken mulch]

gl bro

[chilly granite]

it could be terrible falloff, it wouldn't be revelent becasue shot consistency of hitscan vs projectile

[broken mulch]

thats fair, idk why it isnt a projectile

[chilly granite]

especialyl considering the firerate on the projectile wepaon is signficantly slower

1.15/1.3 vs 0.75

[unkempt moss]

Catter must have said the GOUF patch wouldn't fix the finals even though everyone knows it would.

[chilly granite]

you get 3 repeater shots for every two bow/sr84 shots while we must hit projectiles and they just need to aim

like even if the repeater was projectile, it would still be op

[broken mulch]

do you think the bow needs a buff or is it fine?

[chilly granite]

projectile from 0 meters

maybe it wouldn't be op in the hands of embark devs, but apparently the current repeater isn't op in their hands?

[broken mulch]

i dont understand them they understand that repeater is op rn and they mildly buff/nerf stuff in response to it

[chilly granite]

bow needs quality of life more than buff

Like, the projectile is too wide, so it gets stuck in a huge amount of random objects which makes a lot of hits not land

the projectile speed is too variable imho, it seems to be about 230m/s at point blank and dropping to about 130m/s at 50m or so, a more consistent, lower speed would help with making it feel more projectile in cqb and less unreliable at distance

[broken mulch]

what do u think needs to be buffed the most?

[chilly granite]

according to my testing it seems to be moving at 1m/s at 100m lol, I'm pretty sure that's wrong but testing accuracy is a pain

light's hp pool, it's too hard to survive on light even for the best players in the world, which is why light falls out of comp meta the second it's not strictly needed

[broken mulch]

to what?

[chilly granite]

end hp is extremely debatable. I think 180 is nice, because it means that you can give weapons 4shot vs heavy without 2shot light

light stays fragile, but gains enough hp to not have stupid breakpoints against most weapons, and the hp change is small enoguh most ttks don't significantly change, so I don't thnk light would be broken op with it

[kindred gorge]

True I am admittedly clawing my way out of low elo hell and when I was in bronze a teammate was calling it ass cause his “bullets would go right through them”

[chilly granite]

controller players defend adding snap aimm to repeater in s9 when the winning teams repeater player was on controller in s8

SKILL ISSUE

[broken mulch]

hp buff def not happening tho

[rigid fiber]

doesnt that defeat the repeaters point? i mean i get that you can stil 2 shot heasdshot at 180 but its meant to be powerful against lights

[chilly granite]

can you see medium getting a hp nerf then?

[broken mulch]

a: continuity
b: breakpoint issues
c: prob make light more oppressive at lower levels

[chilly granite]

I mean, dash and invis need nerfs for new player retention anyway

[broken mulch]

continuity is honestly the biggest issues hp is something they've never messed with and i doubt they will

[chilly granite]

that's a fucking insanely bad reason to not do something

you're probably right, but it's beyodn stupidity

[broken mulch]

sure it is i agree

yk sometimes i remember gravity vortex is a gadget

[chilly granite]

dash and invis should be nerfed into the ground to help new player retentinon and then light should have 180hp

grapple meta because it's the only spec left on light, and light having more hp helps it actually be an option

slowly buff dash and invis into viability

this is how you rework btw, not delete something from the game and forget about it

[broken mulch]

alot of weapons rely on dash(i literally only care abt sword)

[chilly granite]

sword/dash combo is not fun for new players to deal with

it should be delted and sword should be made viable without it

and honestly sword grapple is fine

[broken mulch]

yea sword m1 should go back to 74

and buff m2

[chilly granite]

the toxic/antifun synergies should be deleted, and then rebalanced to make them good iwthout the bad synergies

[broken mulch]

m1 spam is not fun for either side

[chilly granite]

that's how you do an actual rework without just deleiting it from the game (couhg cough thermal cough recon cough cough)

[broken mulch]

thermal is never comin back

ig if it did itd have to be a very short duration thing so that it doesnt have anything to do with smoke, but more powerful somehow(see thru walls or smth, that seems a bit busted tho)

i dunno im not a dev i prob got shit suggestions for it since i never used it

[chilly granite]

lol that's recon

it's much easier to take something bad, adn buff it into relevence, than it is to take something good, and nerf it into irrelvence, without upsetting peopeel

that's why its better to overnerf and underbuff

[unkempt moss]

Thermal optics to replace it, calling it now.

[chilly granite]

people will be less mad about 1 huge nerf, than 15, and more happy with 10 small buffs, than 1 giant one that goes to far, and then has to be reverted (see v9s)

[sudden pewter]

#💣┇weapons-gadgets message

Denizens of #💥┇spawn-point came to add nothing to the discussion even, it was a wild time

[chilly granite]

I need to send that to the embark support so they actually think about that and maybe realize they were stupid with v9s, model, and repeater

[unkempt moss]

I remember this now. The flood of wNg tourists was insane.

[sudden pewter]

I should have taken a screenshot in all fairness as otherwise it’s just “me good they bad”

[unkempt moss]

I dont think its necessary. Its a very believable situation.

[chilly granite]

it happens all the time, I've been playing on steamdeck to test aim aissist and have like 5 games where i went like 2-10 ahhahaha

i'm lvl 118

anyway, me getting more than 0 kills is more than enough proof the aim assist is op, I can't even jump or open doors on controller, I struggle to walk through doorways

it took me 3 tries to walk throuhg a doorway and I got 4 kills in the same match

and not assits or finsihing, full hp to 0 beams on the m11

I got a dobule kill, two guys, and somehow I killed the both with 1 clip on m11?? I wasn't aiming worht a damn, I promise

when I turn the aim assist off I cant hit more than 3 bullets

like, youcan be just as bad on mnk as on controller, I've seen some insanely bad mnk aim, even worse than my controller aim

but that's a seperate arugment

I've also had tdm's where the enemy team had 1 ruby and a buch of low levels, my team was me and a bunch of mid levels, and for some reason literally every person I walked into was the same ruby player, so my team were farming the enemey low levels and I was tanking the ruby for the team hahahaha

we won though so I'll take it

[kindred gorge]

I think I’m level 70 something I just kept getting hoed over with lags and disconnects during my placement matches

[rigid fiber]

does level really indicate anything?

i mean other than play time

[chilly granite]

level is a terrible indicator of that anyway

different modes reward different amounts of xp, and battlepass/contract participation/playing with friends will all affect it too

level is an effective indicator of nothing except a minimum degree of playtime

[unkempt moss]

I think the idea is that you would gain a basic understanding of the game in a certain amount of play time.

[chilly granite]

I mean, that'sbullshit anyway

you shuld see some dota players with 10k hours

gaining understanding depends on trying to gain understanding

if you don't want to learn, you won't

and there's a large porition of casual gamers who do not want to learn, they want to play without engauging their brain in any way

see #👂┇game-feedback

that's ignoring people who have learning difficulties, or learning disabilities, or physical disabilities

I'm type a and c, althoguh probably not as severe as the terms tend to make people assume

I've gotten a lot better at managing my adhd symtpoms since I was diagnosed, so I learn new games way, way faster than when I was a kid with undiagnosed and untreated adhd

[rigid fiber]

yeah i think its bad bc i am level 20 and semi undrstand

[unkempt moss]

Unfortunately my adhd makes me terrible at my favorite competitive genre

[serene glade]

yeah im telling saber on you, what a doompost

[unkempt moss]

Please dont tell saber sensei!

[chilly granite]

what wouldthat b

[unkempt moss]

Fighting games. My most beloved.

The perfect competitive genre.

[chilly granite]

too impatient to leearn combo?

[kindred gorge]

Just like me fr

[unkempt moss]

Its more like I cant focus on learning a single thing. I see to many things and want to try them, never settling. That will all be changing March 17th.

[kindred gorge]

Learned a 5 hit combo in gg strive and gave up doing anything else

But if you’re gonna start medicating look for the natural stuff because adderall is a very bad solution

[unkempt moss]

I'm just going to lock in. I will be hitting Masters and climbing.

[kindred gorge]

I believe it. Easier now that your main got added to the game yeah?

Which btw getting Jam Project to do the theme is so fire

[unkempt moss]

He deserves two themes, so im glad hes getting the love

Going back to my roots. Never could settle on a main in 6. So Capcom settled it for me.

Daddy was always a grappler, they were afraid to let me spread my wings.

[analog pewter]

I wish the nostalgia theme was better

They gutted the breakbeat and backing piano

[unkempt moss]

Its better than the jazzy 25 remix they did for evo. I was so scared they were going to try and do something similar.

The secret is ||Dudley always had the best theme in 3S anyway||

[analog pewter]

Uhhhhhhhh nah it was ||the twins||

Followed by ||makoto||

[unkempt moss]

I cannot agree.

[kindred gorge]

If I ever got sf6 I think I would try and learn gief despite never touching a grappler in my life

[unkempt moss]

Respect for knowing the themes, but for me its Dudley, Alex, Akuma.

[analog pewter]

Actually I think my favorite is twins or ibuki, can't choose

[unkempt moss]

Ibuki is close to Akuma. Its a hard choice.

[analog pewter]

The real answer is ||the new generation arranged soundtrack is the best version of each of those||

[unkempt moss]

He's fun but my heart belongs to another SF grappler.

[analog pewter]

https://youtu.be/JsqhgTqld1I?si=jsJObjzocvDrJxVs

[unkempt moss]

||ur right||

[analog pewter]

Check this out, and the rest of the NGAST. Heat all the way down

[unkempt moss]

There's a handful of themes in New Generation and 2nd Impact that should have never gotten the axe

[analog pewter]

They should have just done a cover of this and changed nothing https://youtu.be/rpUsJatfpjU?si=YqfLoMSovjT4igFe

[unkempt moss]

Capcom leaving money on the table by not selling these albums.

[analog pewter]

Factssssss

[unkempt moss]

Remake these and lossless. Here's my card.

Monster Hunter gets its own orchestra show, so I know there's an audience for this stuff

[serene glade]

lock in or im reporting this vile act

[unkempt moss]

I will boss

[analog pewter]

I just need them to add Makoto, then we can run sets bro

[unkempt moss]

Did you see the rumors?

[analog pewter]

I may have, or I saw one "leak" where the guy came out and said he lied

What are you talking abt though

[unkempt moss]

I didn't see the retraction but I have seen Makoto for next season in a couple places. Could have been the guy that lied though

[chilly granite]

I just wrote a giagantic essay for embark support about the repeater

it blows my mind, that it beats the models' ttk against all classes and they don't realize that the rate of fire is what needs nerfing

[unkempt moss]

Ewww finals talk in the fighting game general

[chilly granite]

high risk cqb weapon vs weapon that reaches out to touhc you from 40m

very cool

[analog pewter]

If they add Makoto i really hope they don't fundamentally redesign her. I'm gonna actually crash out if they put her command grab behind a stance or remove its ability to start combos

[unkempt moss]

They kinda cooked with S3 and part of 2. So hopefully thats a good sign.

They seem to be giving the new characters a lot more love than the base roster.

[analog pewter]

Ngl Alex is what gives me pause, they've changed his moveset so much that I wonder if old Alex players are even going to feel at home playing him

[serene glade]

with slime in the game trying to implement makoto honestly sounds challenging

[analog pewter]

People say that Makoto with drive rush would be evil but Makoto already had FADC and she was bottom 5 in ultra

[serene glade]

slime is way more powerful imo, but the could just give her a really short rush

[analog pewter]

Honestly for me I think they should give her a slow/short drive rush and emphasize raw dash as her gap closer

I like that idea more anyways

[unkempt moss]

He has a lot of his old moveset, but if youre not going to use more advanced motions and still make him playable in modern they almost have to do somwthinh like they did.

As a certified Alex fan, getting him in the game finally is enough for me. He was missing a lot in 5 and I still loved him. My biggest question for bringing him to 6 is how they were going to give him all of his moves.

But, I also think he plays in a way now more similar to my play style with prowler giving bonus counter hits.

[orchid zinc]

hi

[unkempt moss]

Also, having a fireball tool on a grappler is insanely nice.

I'm sure it'll upset a lot of people that he doesn't play exactly like 3S but I think he looks like so much fun in this.

Also, if they just made 3S Alex in this it wouldn't fit thematically, and he would be complete ass like he was in 3S.

[analog pewter]

I just hope they don't do the same thing to Makoto, her playstyle is incredibly tightly designed and changing too much can easily turn her into a different character

Assuming they ever even add her of course

[unkempt moss]

One thing Embark just shitting the bed has done, is opened my eyes to how other companies handle things. Seeing Capcom seem to give a proper effort into making something I care a lot about is really nice. It may not be exactly how I would have done it, and its likely better than how I would have.

But his level 3 has four different version, 2 levels 2, he has pretty much every move there it seems, I dont know if I saw stungun Headbutt. Special counter states and stuff. I'm excited to learn him even if he is different. I'm a character loyalist, not a playstyle loyalist.

[analog pewter]

Makoto from sf3 to sf4 didn't change much in gameplan other than becoming more okizeme and reset oriented due to her reduced damage and stun output

I hope they keep her disgusting reset and cross under bullshit

[unkempt moss]

At the end of the day, I want a buff blonde new yorker with way too many options to use efficiently and to slam some mfs with style.

[analog pewter]

Check out 5:38 lmao it had me howling

https://youtu.be/jnUSPN8UvGE?si=6ML7_vH9eAqxBMJG

[unkempt moss]

I do think you should prepare yourself for changes to Makoto. Sagat isnt a fireball character anymore it seems, so everything is off the table at that point.

And that has twice the history of Makotos playstyle.

[analog pewter]

My main things i need them to keep intact are karakusa being a pure command grab (no stance gating) that initiates a combo, her juggle focused combos, and her insane dash

I'm open to changes elsewhere

[unkempt moss]

If anything the changes will come to command grab. Everyone can juggle and everyone has an insane dash now.

[analog pewter]

They can't de-sauce her command grab bro it would kill me

[unkempt moss]

The juggles in 6 are borderline tekken level of absurd.

[analog pewter]

Yeah but they mostly rely on DR

Makoto should have strong juggles with ex fukiage and normal moves

[unkempt moss]

Yeah, they will with her too unfortunately. I could see her command grab getting different enders based off the button pressed.

[analog pewter]

Give her an insane dash and a short drive rush, emphasize DR for once she's already in and using dash as the gap closer

[unkempt moss]

Going off of Ed and some other characters I think theyre afraid of making command dashes good.

[analog pewter]

You know it would be cool if she could press p to launch and k to leave them grounded, with different routes out of each. Launcher setting up for abare tosanami combos better but grounded being better with her grounded follow ups

[analog pewter]

She doesn't have a command dash, just her busted ass normal dash

[unkempt moss]

Youre right. In my head I was thinking of dash punch. But theyre definitely afraid of making regular dashes good. But it could be her thing.

Especially if they sacrifice DR.

[analog pewter]

I WANT her to have a bad DR

[unkempt moss]

I got my never ever dream pick in the game, and my main. So I'm happy. I hope everyone gets what they want.

[serene glade]

I want DR to be bad

[analog pewter]

I'm tired of the green glow game

[unkempt moss]

I know. I get what youre saying. I think it would be cool if her DR didnt move forward and was just a really good cancel.

[serene glade]

Getting plus frames on a neutral skip option is wild to me and always will be

[analog pewter]

Yeah they could design an extremely interesting version of Makoto if her dash is insanely good but her DR is terrible

[unkempt moss]

Would certainly make her unique in a sea of drive rush. Thats one thing I'm excited for on Alex. His trailer barely showed DR combos unlike the others. So he seems to be more loaded on EX and grapples.

[serene glade]

I hope Ingrid has interesting mechanics tied to the drive gauge. I thought they handled c.viper really well. They really haven't missed with dlc not named season 1

[analog pewter]

My favorite thing to do with Makoto after karakusa is juggle into side switch reset, that's something I really want them to lean into for her gameplay

[serene glade]

Using drive more than just universal slime and thing it to character specific options is neat

[analog pewter]

AKI is really hot so I like her

[chilly granite]

r8 my post

[serene glade]

I would have mained her if she wasn't a rush down throw fireball drive rush behind it character. I loved FANG in 5

[unkempt moss]

Terry and Alex are really hot. So I feel you.

[chilly granite]

is streetfighter new game free to play?

[unkempt moss]

Negative.

But it goes on deep sale sometimes.

[serene glade]

Nah, they don't churn out enough costumes and paid items to justify making it f2p

[unkempt moss]

One more character a season. Not too much to ask.

[chilly granite]

i got doa 6 on sale a few years ago

[serene glade]

They seem horrendously slow at getting characters out, but they are rolling in money with how big sf6 has blown up in japan

[chilly granite]

but i never really played uit

[unkempt moss]

I love DoA. Its a tough game to get in to though.

[analog pewter]

We deserve at least 5 for sure

[serene glade]

Doa added mai so it's based

[chilly granite]

tbh I hate character slop games

cough cough rainbow six couhg couhg

cough cough league of legend couhg cough

[unkempt moss]

Odd way to describe fighting games.

[analog pewter]

Characterslop is insane

[chilly granite]

I don't mean fighting games

i mean games that add characters for the sake of hitting a threshold

rather than adding charactesr when it fits, or when they have a good idea

[analog pewter]

Is deadlock characterslop

[unkempt moss]

I'd like 6, but 5 is a deal I would make.

[analog pewter]

I remember when we used to get a character every two months and the game never got truly boring

[chilly granite]

So rainbow 6 had a good roster of characters, but they just kepts adding new characters that made previous ones redundant or were bullsiht

[analog pewter]

Sfv's cycle was always exciting even when the content was bad lol

[serene glade]

5 has run laps around 6 by now with the amount of character AND costume drops it had at this point

[chilly granite]

Valorant and league also have the problem of adding characters that make previous chracters redundant, or are just poorly designed

that's characterslop

[analog pewter]

Yeah it's not even a comparison sf6 is literally falling behind

[unkempt moss]

Alex makes every character redundant except Terry.

[serene glade]

Fighting games are usually really good about redundancy

[analog pewter]

Nah nah we still need urien

[serene glade]

Except like smash who adds straight clones lol

[analog pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/urien-leaks-and-spoilers-epic-win-gif-17314869379395191529

[chilly granite]

fighting games have always been high character count games, so I expect them to have a much better grasp of how to avoid characterslop problems, but I stand by my opinon that fewer addtions that are higher quality leads to better games

[unkempt moss]

I'd be fine with Urien. Only characters I really want now are Dudley and Zeku. One is never coming back.

[analog pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/urien-aegis-setup-tech-her-throw-urien-aegis-setup-tech-her-throw-and-gif-15255334738729652931

[serene glade]

I can hear this gif

[analog pewter]

LA DI DA DI DA
SLOB ON ME KNOB

[chilly granite]

that's what I was arguing against @analog pewter , I don't think adding more faster is better, cuz haivng targets/thresholds leads to slopy work (cough couhg leaguge cough cough)

[serene glade]

Where is twelve at

[analog pewter]

Thirteen

[unkempt moss]

You dont even like twelve in his game.

[analog pewter]

They should add six and seven

[serene glade]

My twelve is nasty bruv

[unkempt moss]

You get powerbombed and drop him.

[analog pewter]

My dream season is Urien, Makoto, Mika, and G

[chilly granite]

anyway none of you gonna rate my post?

[serene glade]

But tbh I really think necro would be a good add. But I'll take Ingrid and be jolly

[unkempt moss]

Which one, bud?

[analog pewter]

Id love necro for sure he's my other favorite from 3s

[serene glade]

Nobody rated my 9-11 reference post

[chilly granite]

hmmm I'm gonna go shower and then sleep but maybe i'll play it when i wake up

[chilly granite]

I'm english we don't care about your shitty towers

[serene glade]

It's got modern controls which is nice for new players to give a whirl

[chilly granite]

i think doa 6 did too, but I have some old fighting games and they gave me a headache, controlschemeslop

[unkempt moss]

My dream season. Dudley, Zeku, Makoto, and Gouken.

[serene glade]

The one takeaway stupid people and embark would see from this post is "hurrr durr he want da sniper buff"

[analog pewter]

Zeku is also a great pick

[chilly granite]

I'm literally just saying controlschemeslop to piss off @analog pewter

[analog pewter]

If i could pick 6 it would be Urien, Zeku, Makoto, Mika, Necro, G I think

[serene glade]

Maki is the dream add, but Kimberly stole her spot, so I give up

[analog pewter]

Rainbow Mika would tide me over till Makoto if they only added her

My two favorite grappler women

I basically only play woman grappler/ strike-throw characters

[chilly granite]

@analog pewter I supported your vote for a black cat tail in my edit

[serene glade]

Just add the entire 3s roster in

[analog pewter]

Thank you bro I appreciate it

[unkempt moss]

I always welcome other grapplers since I'll never get another Saturday Night Slam Masters.

[chilly granite]

Edited to clarify the SR84 should not be buffed, thx for catching that

[serene glade]

I got cooked in that

[unkempt moss]

I'm literally undefeated in it.

[analog pewter]

I need them to make a new KoF with the USA sports team

[unkempt moss]

City of Wolves is goated, bud. We get one character a month until June.

[serene glade]

I need them to reveal the final 2 characters in the cotw dlc

They cooked with this 2nd dlc (minus Kim)

[analog pewter]

I have it and just don't really vibe with it
KoF's neutral gameplay is the greatest formula in fighting game history

Id play more cotw if they added kyo but they hate my boy so they never will

[unkempt moss]

Thats the next SNK character for SF6 I hope.

[analog pewter]

Oh my God if we got kyo I could absolutely wait longer for Makoto

[unkempt moss]

If we cant have CvS3 just keep dropping SNK characters

[analog pewter]

Kyo is my other true love in fighting games

[unkempt moss]

Kyo would be so insane in 6. Instant top tier.

[analog pewter]

Command jump short hop lmaooooo

[unkempt moss]

Its so over.

[serene glade]

Harada is reviving a Tekken character in sf6. It's why he left bandai namco officially. Then he will create another rival schools game

[unkempt moss]

Please give Harada-san Rival Schools.

Thank you Capcom Thank you Capcom

[serene glade]

Arigato arigato arigato

[slow linden]

Add a placeable cannon gadget for heavy,better yet make it a single shot primary with a long reload and no ads,right mouse shoots a cannon ball and left mouse shoots grapeshot

[unkempt moss]

Bow-kun never told me what post he wanted rated.

[serene glade]

I need some grapes shot in my mouth no cap

[serene glade]

. This post dumbass

[slow linden]

Grapes are pretty yummy especially when they're traveling at super sonic speeds and are made of lead

[unkempt moss]

Oh, he was talking about CB being just a really good model.

[serene glade]

Moondrop grapes the goat. Nothing comes close

[unkempt moss]

Do you like cotton candy grapes?

[serene glade]

They aight, but meh

[unkempt moss]

Also why tf is wepsNgadg better for fighting game talk than most of the internet.

[stoic token]

..

[serene glade]

Why's wepsNgadg better for balancing and fun in the finals than most of embark

[stoic token]

you there?

[serene glade]

take a long hike off a short bridge fuckface