💣┇weapons-gadgets

[hardy dust]

Not if you increase the dps by 5x

That would be crazy

Im all for turret buffs but thats a bit too much

[spring spear]

i saw a turret kill a light that was full hp yesterday on quick cash

quickplay demons are a different breed, i hadnt played quick cash in ages and that was the first time i saw a turret get a kill since

[hardy dust]

Ive seen teammates lose 1v1s with turrets in qc on multiple occasions 😭

[placid slate]

Teams do jot need 6 mediums on it

[eager wasp]

how about 8 and 8 little friends, the new mode is gonna be a stack hell

[slender bear]

5 snipers in power shift hurts, 8 snipers in Point Break is hell

[plucky spade]

I stg if a light dies to a turret in this state

[thick holly]

People would just run triple turrets, then instead of it being like a 3.5v3, it would basically be a 9v3

What turret really needs is more utility, like being able to shoot at goo blocking it and dome shields

Or something else is make carryables it is placed on more resistant to bullets so it would be worth putting it on a chair

But something I noticed is that people aren't really thinking smart with their turret placements. If you place it down randomly on the floor, people know how to counter it easily

[craggy monolith]

Make the turret be able to equip other attachments like attach a cl 40 or a goo launcher that have a cool down of 5 to 10 seconds for every shot

[slender bear]

I think sword needs a leek skin to match the leek charms we got this month

Like the "lemon on a stick" Twitch Drops

[hardy dust]

https://tenor.com/view/hatsune-miku-miku-hachune-miku-leek-gif-13736312600729203384

[plucky spade]

One (1) goo gun

[abstract solar]

I see

[plucky spade]

I doubt it

[graceful nova]

There should be bread loaves in the Arena, so I can finally teleport bread with the Gateway

[topaz steeple]

Amazing idea, ...why?

[shell sonnet]

WE CANNOT TELEPORT BREAD

[graceful nova]

Would you like to teleport bread?

[plucky spade]

Bucket

[shell sonnet]

that we dont have a metal bucket hat yet is criminal

[clear vigil]

Love gadgets

[eager wasp]

true

[shell sonnet]

need more
more combos specifically

[tribal saddle]

Balanced

[sudden pewter]

What the fuck are we supposed to take away from this?

Oh the 70 ammo

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/community-ken-jeong-ben-chang-cant-see-small-gif-5154350

[outer crow]

Ballanced

[wild zenith]

any twitch streamers runninng the matter?

[cunning slate]

Is that a remark, or a rebuttal?

[sudden pewter]

Rebuttal to my prior response and remark on the image provided

[tidal urchin]

getting really tired of being two tapped by revolver, repeater and btr

[brittle turtle]

new weAPONS weouldnbe nice buyt i dont think they wlll add any heew one s any time soon ebacaue of the paeacthss

[cunning slate]

You good? Your message is a touch off...

[cunning slate]

You play light, don't you?

[tiny notch]

still a valid point

even if light dies fast to everything it's still pretty frustrating getting 2 or 1 tapped

but if they didn't then the weapons themselves would kinda suck ass

[topaz steeple]

Hell yeah

[slow linden]

Pyro mine my beloved

[viral crest]

.

[viral crest]

Hi

[outer crow]

Teleporter going up

[fresh dragon]

New weapon idea:

I feel like heavy should get a burst weapon

5 or 6 round burst M249 Saw LMG

Maybe make it feel like the Famas but in an LMG, I'd be happy to use a burst weapon on heavy

[spring spear]

i actually do like the idea of a burst weapon for heavy, this doesnt sound too bad

well idk if it should be a 5-6 round burst necessarily but you know the idea is neat

[restive plover]

Make spear have 4 hits for right click

[indigo nexus]

…why

[shell sonnet]

unlesss you plan on giving the 4th hit 350 damage thats just a nerf
its already punishing to use when you perfectly set it up if the enemy has a keyboard

[restive plover]

same time, just more hits

the last hit takes too long so put another hit inbetween it

[shell sonnet]

nvm then, that would help
still keeps it way too punishing though when they could just cut it down to 1 repeatable sweep

[simple magnet]

why the new toast and roast isn't actually toasting the bread? it should be a toast when you reload

[indigo nexus]

oh, that'd be good then

[indigo nexus]

I think it would be kinda lame to remove the risk from it, as it would really be a lot more powerful than it is right now with their suggestion

[versed finch]

Season 9 is gonna add so many weapons, this is gonna be fun

[limber pelican]

I think its fine if the worst heavy weapon gets a bit of a big buff you know

[indigo nexus]

it shouldn't be that big.

spear isn't that bad, none of the heavy weapons are

[limber pelican]

I mean its a melee weapon, so by engaging in the first place you're putting yourself at risk

[indigo nexus]

indeed

[limber pelican]

So I think being locked into an uncancellable animation is just straight up unfair

I think they should really lean into the whole "spear is the more range melee" thing

Give it a throw or a charge on its alt

[indigo nexus]

I don't think so, because the spin manages to be useful in spite of that. Just fixing the hitreg issues would help a lot with it

[placid slate]

Also is just inferior to spin cancel

After 8.9 spin cancel is overall the better idea than 1 spin per inout

[indigo nexus]

I will be happy when spin cancel is removed, it should not be allowed to hold back spear balance

[placid slate]

It fucking doesn't? Embark is just lazy as shit.

Nor does sit hold back the balance, because spin is fine

[indigo nexus]

it definitely affects their metrics on its viability.

[placid slate]

Numbers are solid, all it needs is it's movement back after cancel

[placid slate]

Yea, it makes it go from worst heavy weapon to worst heavy weapon

Such an improvement

You don't play enough of this shit if you think animation locking yourself for 3 seconds is remotely enjoyable

[indigo nexus]

If it's not an improvement you wouldn't be talking about it

[placid slate]

The point is you act like spin cancel is a tumor that prevents embark from getting off their ass and doing something for once

[indigo nexus]

It makes the situation worse without a doubt, in at least two ways

[placid slate]

They don't even know this shit exists

[indigo nexus]

that would make it worse, if true

[placid slate]

How? That embark intends for spin to be miserable to use?

[indigo nexus]

It would mean they don't account for it whatsoever when determining if the spear needs any balance changes

[placid slate]

Yes and look where that ends up for us

[indigo nexus]

Not sure what point you are making with this.

[placid slate]

Embark is lazy

[indigo nexus]

So now I don't know where that came from

[placid slate]

Or ignorant

Mfs deemed that a +5% movespeed increase to the spin was a perfect buff

[indigo nexus]

They have access to way more info to this end than we do.

I would certainly never claim that they were more ignorant than myself about something like this

[placid slate]

Then why has nothing happened

[indigo nexus]

Consider; because of information we do not have.

[placid slate]

Considering the sledge mfs had to harass them for like 3 weeks for them to even consider melees outside it is bad

[placid slate]

They got secret spear tech in the embark offices?

[indigo nexus]

it is silly to assume from a stance of ignorance that something happening differently to what you expect is evidence of ignorance on the informed party

[indigo nexus]

They know how it actually stacks up in the balance, we do not.

[placid slate]

It's fairly obvious how it does without spin cancel

[indigo nexus]

There's really no way it could be.

We do not have the sort of data collection required for that

[placid slate]

Are you suggesting spear without tech is good?

[indigo nexus]

I did not say nor imply this.

But I do not think it is that bad.

[placid slate]

Go play some ranked without tech

[indigo nexus]

That's what I already do :p

[placid slate]

Then you'd know how inferior it is without cancel

M1 is mathematically fucked too

[indigo nexus]

I do as well with it as any other weapon, so at least at moderate elo it seems fine from an anecdotal point of view

In any season where I play a decent amount it gets to low platinum, and I don't really go any higher regardless of weapon choice

most players are worse than this, so I suspect spear becomes better as you become worse to counteract how hard it falls off at rather high elo lobbies, but I do not know this. If I were balancing the game, this would be true.

[placid slate]

Unrelated note but embark did say that spin has a object cap, which is what causes a majority of no regs

Which comes to question how unoptimised elevators are to trigger this 100% of the time almost

[indigo nexus]

do we know what counts as an object in this sense?

Maybe it's including the components of the elevator such as doors and walls, as well as the structural components of the surrounding building in the radius, or... something

[placid slate]

Barricade segments seem to be multiple each, considering they cause no regs much faster than goo nades

[indigo nexus]

that makes sense since they're damaged independantly

[indigo nexus]

(also, this would not tell us anything about optimisation! As we don't know the specifics for all we know it would be worse on that front if it was minimised. More likely it would just require reworking a couple of other bits and sacrificing code maintainability though, I would gauge?)

[placid slate]

I kinda mean that is more than 50 parts to an indestructible object necessary?

[indigo nexus]

It's partially destructible but we don't know, but where does the number 50 come from? Do we know that that's the cutoff point?

[placid slate]

Got if off guigui in the spear thread

[indigo nexus]

if it is then I'm curious how many of my hitreg experiences happened, since 50 is a big number and you don't always have a lot of stuff around you when it occurs

[placid slate]

#1333886179418050650 message

I mean it definitely could be less but it's really hard to measure personally

It definitely got upped at some point tho since 2 goo nades don't cause it alone anymore

[edgy estuary]

What are we predicting for Meta weapon for each class next season?

I’m going for:
Shak? (Not a heavy main)
Model (I hope)
ARN (can’t see them not touching 93r)

[placid slate]

We don't know all balance changes yet

[indigo nexus]

Let me consult my crystal ball;

Spear
Dual blades
Dagger

[placid slate]

Meta if it was funny

[versed finch]

NOT THE MODEl

I love the gun, but season 3 was... something with that model meta

[viral crest]

Hello

[edgy estuary]

That’s part of the gamble

[worn dawn]

anyone got a good build for heavy

trying to play with it more but its just so boring

[compact tundra]

What guns do you like?

[worn dawn]

all i guess

i play light daggers or mll thing

[worn dawn]

the uzi

[compact tundra]

It's gonna kinda be a hard switch but there's certainly things in heavy you'd like

The main thing you gotta get used to is the fact that light does hit and run from advantageous angles, heavy just brawls. Heavy fights head on and has the health and tools to thrive in head to head fights

[lofty crypt]

Heavy benefits the most with good teamplay. Most of it's tools are focused on defense like shields and barricades. Personally, I use M60, RPG, Dome Shield, Barricade and Charge Slam Special. You can substitute the RPG with C4 or mines however. You can also swap the M60 with the Lewis if you prefer faster kills. That build seems to be the best balance of offence and defense in my option.

[compact tundra]

Honestly if you wanna keep a somewhat familiar playstyle to M11, the closest your gonna get is Winch and ShAK I think, ShAK fucking shreds but has a small clip so you gotta be careful, and winch will force those close up engagements your already used to.

For gadgets I'd always take the dome shield, it's a free 300hp and can come in clutch for so many situations. The rest just experiment and see what you like, id definitely recommend RPG, Lock bolt, C4, heal ball, and anti-grav cube. They're all such solid gadgets

[worn dawn]

i aint reading all that

[compact tundra]

But most of heavies gadgets have their used and fans

[worn dawn]

also ehm so when the round starts i lag like crazy is there a fix for that or ?

[fiery thunder]

TLDR: M60/Lewis, RPG, Dome, Barricade

[lofty crypt]

Just trying to help fella

[spring spear]

winch bfr/shak/sa12 heal ball/c4/goo nade rpg dome

[worn dawn]

yea but that shit wAY to long lol

[sudden pewter]

Reading comprehension is dead 😔

[analog pewter]

they should give heavy a comically small SMG, like the MP9. just an SMG that looks silly in heavy's hands

or like the tec-9 would be fun

if they do gun skins for existing guns that turn them into other guns, I'd love to see something turned into the walther MPK/MPL
could probably fit as a skin for the MP5

[errant junco]

Well we’re mostly American in here so what do you expect

[wild zenith]

so im thinking goonades would work well with m26 matter? theyd let me put something to peek with anywhere. But how valuable would it be compared to something like glitch nades or infuser?

[sudden pewter]

This is a wall of cope

[abstract solar]

What is the best way to deal with 3 mediums spamming turrets

[fiery thunder]

Good to block sights, or Reshaper to change the Turrets

[abstract solar]

I see

So goo gun is also a good idea?

how do I deal with it if I am being melted by 3 turrets and all in different positions

[fiery thunder]

Using Goo to block line of sight is the best way to deal with it. You block off 1 or 2 of the turrets, then focus on one, is probably the best way to deal with triple Turret

[abstract solar]

I see thank you

[fiery thunder]

That’s for Medium btw. For Light, Glitch Grenades temporarily disable Turrets as well

But overall, best counter imo is using Goo to block line of sight

[compact tundra]

If your heavy just shoot the turret with goo gun and it'll stop working
If your medium data reshaper hard counters turrets and you turn them into flower pots
If your light glitch nade can give you a few seconds but goo nade can do the same thing as goo gun it's just harder

[finite agate]

@sudden pewter did you try the battlebit playtest at all, i've heard tragic things

[sudden pewter]

I was working unfortunately so I couldn’t participate. It was only 4h long

[finite agate]

oof gotcha, same here

[sudden pewter]

I miss BattleBit though

After 2(?) years of nothing I’m hoping for the best

[unkempt moss]

GooGun outplays every spec and gadget if youre good enough with it.

[sudden pewter]

C&S counters GooGun iirc

[unkempt moss]

Nah. They just run the fastest direction possible in to my trap. C&S is free kills for Googunners

The only thing lower IQ than a C&S player is a demat player. Those clowns fall for everything

[indigo nexus]

It did indeed not work well technically, though that was kind of expected. After all it was basically a tech test. Hopefully the next one is properly playable

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/956515795914092596/1444398873593516143/Battlebit_Remastered_2025.11.29_-_18.42.03.05.DVR.mp4?ex=69332847&is=6931d6c7&hm=ccdac09b2e49bfb07e9bf1747f76a825b556780d70cecc6ab9fd5a80f9447be2&

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/956515795914092596/1444399305933979701/Battlebit_Remastered_2025.11.29_-_18.39.39.03.DVR.mp4?ex=693328ae&is=6931d72e&hm=f634999ddce4ddd7392fb10547a66872a58090ef286f2c756d30e91158f157f7&

(hmm, the videos don’t play correctly on my phone)

[sudden pewter]

The new models look so nice

Hoping they can iron out the kinks as I have 0 interest in BF6

[finite agate]

me neither, especially after requiring secure boot lmao

[finite agate]

jesus christ

[indigo nexus]

I’m concerned by how much they increased the TTK, it’s generally at least twice what it was before

which, you know, isn’t inherently bad, but it’s not the BBR I was hooked by.

[finite agate]

100%

[indigo nexus]

However community feedback online at least seems to be heavy with complaint about this, so they might backpedal. Nobody was really asking for doubled TTKs.

[finite agate]

did okidoki finally commit to something with nerfing the movetech like he clearly wanted to do or did he capitulate to the discord

[indigo nexus]

He did, yes

That was implemented a long time ago but I guess wasn’t common knowledge until the test dropped

[sudden pewter]

Oki is definitely the most devisive part of the game as a whole. What the original vision he had for BBR wasn’t what was the players latched onto

I feel for him, truly

[finite agate]

yeah last time i played the added "inertia" felt like a bandaid and didnt really change how the movement players went about the game

[indigo nexus]

I also don’t think it’s good that they’re abandoning the armour system. That was a nice bit of customisability and actively made the balance better by applying something of a smoothing effect to TTKs.

[finite agate]

oooh dont like that, especially since they already got rid of bandaging

[indigo nexus]

At least it looks and sounds better. Gunplay feels quite different but a lot of that is visual I think.

[finite agate]

tbh i do feel he just moved too slow, he shouldve tried getting rid of all that movement the moment it started popping up if he didnt like it

[indigo nexus]

Scopes have an extra wobbliness to them based on your character’s movement that wasn’t there before, which surprises me as that’s a more “hardcore” thing which Oki had said they were staying away from…

[finite agate]

by the time he did a sizable portion had come to believe that it was an intended part of the game

[sudden pewter]

Well he originally wanted a mil-sim game. And “slow development” is the BBR curse it seems

They had lightning in a bottle and let it fizzle out rather than capturing it

[indigo nexus]

Maybe, though community opinion was so divided on movement, I understand wanting to address less controversial issues first…

[finite agate]

i liked both playstyles so i didnt really have too big of an opinion. i played m110 engineer even before that gun got buffed xP

but i also played medic w/ smgs before eventually playing a LOT of scorpion evo bc the recoil made me laugh

[indigo nexus]

BBR will also need to live up to its old balance in my eyes, but I expect it’ll be a rocky road as I think the balance is being redone no matter what…

It was actually balanced really well, imo.

[sudden pewter]

Rocket Primary’ing was annoying on the tighter maps but otherwise I didn’t have many grievances

[indigo nexus]

Helps that they didn’t have a lot of unconventional weapons but even so

[finite agate]

i still cant get over that one guy who screamed at me for being a sweat bc i was on the hk

i just unlocked it and was trying it

[sudden pewter]

I had a shouting match over drinking skim milk in BBR, never for get it

2% milk is the best because whole makes me feel heavy 🤓

[finite agate]

those really good little bird players before the nerfs were fun to watch

[sudden pewter]

BBR did C4 drones before BF6

[indigo nexus]

I once got like 30 kills in one iirc, very fun honestly. Most of the time I’d die to ramming it into a tree or something while I was trying to be evasive.

[near wing]

if they added a new weapon to the finals, which weapon would you want to see?

[boreal laurel]

IDK which exact weapon, but something with a low RoF and a high damage per shot for light might be nice. Like throwing knives but an actual gun. I don’t like button-mashing with V9S or LH1, none of the SMGs actually feel good in my hands, and I’ve never been much for the burst-fire guns. TK and Matter great but only over short ranges, so a gun with the same damage model would be interesting

[placid slate]

Low rpm weapons just don't work well on light, or embark refuses to make them work well

Outside maybe db

[buoyant veldt]

A kunai on the end of a rope primary slashes knife like dagger power flings it on contact high damage and drags you to them. Pair with grapple for really cool tricks. Give heavy an lvoac (M4 rifle) and a bullpup burst aug along with a demat grenade.

[indigo nexus]

What about matter?

It’s not exactly meta but it’s good at its role

[shell sonnet]

unrelated, but imo matter needs more enviromental damage

it already destroys walls much faster than most guns, just slightly too slow to really play into it
its not like cl/mgl where you run genuin risk its gonna destroy the floor youre fighting on, it should be fine to have more

[shell sonnet]

finally had the time to get some short clips for the turret rework based on lethal company

+buff hp
+higher damage after locking on
+added berserk mode

-needs to lock on before automatically shooting
-(limited automatic turning?)

basic idea being:
because it needs to lock on first, it becomes very counterable, which should reduce frustrations to lights
but since its a much stronger threat when allowed to activate, you cant just run in, giving the user an opportunity to flank you while you try to safely discard it
which also makes it better against last second pushes, where the enemy might not have the time to do so safely and has to deal with it another way

goo would still hard counter it, where berserk comes in
after placing it, using primary fire on the tablet will activate berserk, making the turret spin twice while constantly firing
the first pass will destroy goo placed on/in front of it, and the 2nd pass coming has a chance to damage enemies, potentially pressuring them out of the room
the turret could loose health as it shoots in berserk, self destruct or glitch itself when berserk finishes
berserk activation time could be adjusted and set high to increase risk to the turret user if needed

this also allows you to purposefully place turret facing a wall, hoping enemies enemies dont see it, to then activate it manually once theyre inside a room

[stuck knot]

How do i do the elbow bump attack

[indigo nexus]

Quick melees? Default is V on mnk

[stuck knot]

Thanks

[indigo nexus]

I have it on my side mouse button as you’ll want to use it in every other fight

[icy sparrow]

Op once u remember the entire team can equip the same spec

[indigo nexus]

Up once u remember the entire other team can equip the data reshaper

[coral root]

Battlefield Bad Company 2 had C4 drone in 2010

[sudden pewter]

I was there

[coral root]

How excited are you for Point break? I cant wait

[sudden pewter]

My friend hates H2H and the standard WT mode (he had a bad experience) but loves the alternative gamemodes (mainly TDM) and he’s very excited for Point Break

I’m cautiously optimistic because afaik there’s nothing stopping a single heavy from destroying the entire map and forcing a flat ground status quo

[coral root]

Valid point. Potentially 8 heavies doing that lol. At least the map areas will unlock procedurally with the objective progress so they cant get the entire map before the attackers descend on them

[placid slate]

I wanna see if it becomes popular enough for something to get heavily nerfed because of it like powershift

[coral root]

I have a feeling itll be popular enough to effect the player count/retention long term

The mode is compelling enough for that to be possible at least

[placid slate]

Bro the shit ain't out yet

[shell sonnet]

anything stacked can be op
and, like solar sausage said, reshaper and other options still shut it down to an extend

there is a reason the numbers aren't concrete, i have no way to know what exactly would be fine

but if for example, berserk took a really long time to spin, you could run away, waste it, and re-engage
or if it was fast, the spread of berserk could be adjusted to where you can jump over it like the fire in that 1 mario party minigame

or maybe its targeting laser is unmoving, only locking on once you pass it, and it can only turn 45-90° to either side, so you only have to contest 1 turret at a time unless they want all of them to be shut down by 1 single glitch grenade or explosive

[plucky spade]

The 8 enemy players :

[coral root]

Its just rush from battlefield. Most of my time on that mode (thousands of hours) was spent around an 8v8 player count so i like to think i understand the mode substantially

[placid slate]

They're gonna be doing the same shit brother

[plucky spade]

Well... That looks like an agreement to me

[stoic garden]

8 goo guns.

[shell sonnet]

@naive glacier

I think it should receive the same nerf that glitch mines did so that a single light can't just instantly destroy both mesh and dome shield at once.
which nerf do you mean?

[naive glacier]

the one that reduces the max amount of uses from 2 to 1
sry forgot to include that

[shell sonnet]

ah, mb then

[unkempt moss]

When is the fun patch coming

[gritty vault]

hi

[ebon mason]

man i WANT the dual blades to be good

[shell sonnet]

I hope the spread is made more consistent
Couldnt tell you how often im right in someone's face, and yet showhow the spread makes 3/4ths of the shots miss
Let alone from across the room/street

The last combo attack also kind of just makes it worse imo

[ebon mason]

yeah, you're literally better off doing a quick melee instead

[tepid rose]

The Matter is useless...

[compact tundra]

Um no

[wild zenith]

shotgun adser?

[tepid rose]

nope

[plucky spade]

man i can't with these dogshit takes

bro does not release he is playing an even more busted op version of the busted op model

[tepid rose]

i just went 9 and 2 with it final round... still think it's ass so what?

[plucky spade]

you aint built for ts

it's objectively a good weapon

[tepid rose]

built for what its a video game

https://tenor.com/view/hey-relax-relax-guy-relax-trump-south-park-south-park-gif-11752911467702281032

[unkempt moss]

What do you think needs to be fixed about it?

[tepid rose]

this is a great question

[unkempt moss]

Like what would you to do make it not ass?

Did they nerf it or something? Ive been away from the game since the start of S8

I didnt even pay attention to their big mid-season patch.

[tepid rose]

there's something odd happening with the spread, ik it's part of the weapon but there is an inconsistency in damage.

[fast zenith]

Have you tried getting closer to the enemies?

[eager wasp]

i think the issue is you didn't aim center mass, hitting all pellets

[unkempt moss]

Is it a server thing? Because they make everything feel worse

[tepid rose]

i honestly haven't looked at patch notes for it. I actually like the weapon it's fun to use but it makes no sense sometimes. There is an inconsistency to it. 1v1's are tough. An equal level double barrel player is going to win 9 out of 10 times.

[placid slate]

Nothing happened mid season btw

[tepid rose]

I understand pellet mechs, still there's an inconsistency to it.

[eager wasp]

shouldn't be

[unkempt moss]

Ive always felt the SO feels like it has way too much range for how much damage it does. Im assuming the reason it wins against matter if things are equal is because the matter needs to do less damage as it has more shots.

[eager wasp]

matter is more of a poke and dive weapon, poke off some damage from a distance, dive in for the kill

you aren't going to win against a db if you are just diving in to close range where it takes a single shot to kill you

[tepid rose]

smh. you think a double barrel isnt going to get in on you ever?

literally what they do

[unkempt moss]

Im assuming equal means youre both running dash.

[tepid rose]

every light weapon is poke and run

[eager wasp]

playstyle

not weapons, weapons have different things, like db is a dive weapon, xp is a sustain, sniper is poke

[unkempt moss]

I cant speak to the inconsistency things, but if youre feeling it then its probably because of the servers.

[tepid rose]

I'm not talking about playstyle. The gun is inconsistent giving you a huge disadvantage against other equal level players. Embark will know this because they can people arent using it.

[eager wasp]

bc we are in a poke meta right now, choosing a shotgun isn't the best option

[tepid rose]

This could be a possibility as well, servers have been weird lately.

[eager wasp]

its a good gun and it was a pretty valid option before the poke meta came in

also the fact that 93r is just a better option in every situation, making it seem like there is no other options in the game

[unkempt moss]

You're a white name, bud. It'll be a lot of posts before people think you're not just mad because you lost a match.

[tepid rose]

making my point real valid here

[eager wasp]

the problem is 93r not the matter

im NOT proving your point

[unkempt moss]

He capitalized "not", its over.

[eager wasp]

gotta put emphasis into what im speaking, be proud of what i say

[hardy dust]

Matter is genuinely one of the best light 1v1 weapons

[unkempt moss]

He got dunked on

[tepid rose]

No, I still stand by what Im saying. Embark should tweak it or at very least look into it. You're at a disadvantage in nearly every situation because of it's damage inconsistency. It could be server related. Yea you can drop 30 bombs with it when you catch people low. It's a fun gun. Just needs to be a more viable option.

[hardy dust]

The only one that really beats it out imo is 93r because the damage breakpoints on it is very strong vs light

Also matter is probably gonna be really strong next season if poke gets nerfed in general

[unkempt moss]

Double greeners on the scene, youre cooked.

[hardy dust]

Its already a good weapon, but the current meta doesn't really fit it

[eager wasp]

yeahhh see ^^ what i said

[hardy dust]

I wouldnt be surprised if it became the best light gun

Without any direct balance changes to it

[tepid rose]

Real lights run grapple with everyone weapon. Dash is brainrot.

[unkempt moss]

Thats actually a based take ngl

[tepid rose]

💀

I mean run what you want, kill me, be a better player but I'm still gonna judge you for being weak.

[tepid rose]

❤️

[unkempt moss]

Keep up the good fight. You have a lot struggle ahead of you if you dont join the hive mind and look to have fun with the game.

For a lot of these people if you don't agree with esports and take the top 500 as literal gospel youre just going to get ganged on. The fun factor of the game has gone down hill since they announced their esports even a few seasons ago.

There's a ton of changes that could make the game more fun and cohesive, but you either need to have a YouTube channel or be ruby+ for them to take you seriously.

[tepid rose]

GO AHEAD

"After you cut your nuts off you don't have the testosterone to play neutral"

[eager wasp]

well i mean thats true but you can't just like, go and ask for buffs on stuff that aren't bad, just like you can't do the same for asking for nerfs on something thats not good fr (rest in peace dagger)

[tepid rose]

no one asked for a buff

[unkempt moss]

I want buffs for everything. I want everything to be fun and busted.

[eager wasp]

it was implied if not said that you think it would need a buff fr

[tepid rose]

[unkempt moss]

Balance is for people that have way too much self worth invested in the game. The sterilization of The Finals must stop.

[tepid rose]

That's ironic given your name

"REVERT DAGGER NERFS"

[eager wasp]

im confused on what you mean by this

[shell sonnet]

im bit worried about some under performers though
on a bad->average balance scale, dagger being bad can still perform
on an average->balance scale, dagger being bad becomes unplayable

being a bit on the lower end also makes gadgets ore proportionally impactful, which is good imo

[unkempt moss]

I feel like this makes some assumptions of what I want biased towards your own point.

I want everything busted, that means the dagger would also be good. The heat is being turned up rather than cooling off constantly. If the dagger is doing that poorly then turn up the heat on it.

Its easy to say that things that are bad would be even worse if you want to ignore the main idea of my point entirely.

The game is in a sad state if im even missing the days of the model and defib pre nerf.

[hardy dust]

supposing everything got turned up, its just going to lead to things that have very little interaction and are simply too strong compared to other picks, and weaker options get even worse, despite them being better in a vacuum compared to their "weaker" counterparts. Take a look at s1 for example, everything was a lot stronger, but there was even less variety because some options where just much too strong. Saying "everything should be busted" is much easier said than done, and will probably just lead to greater disparity between options

while it does work for some games (kinda) it doesnt really fit with the finals

[unkempt moss]

The biggest complain I see is how stale the meta is right now.

[hardy dust]

yeah but thats a whole other issue

[unkempt moss]

Oh

Then disregard what I said.

[hardy dust]

and I absolutely agree that the meta is stale and boring because embark isnt doing anything due to the majors

[unkempt moss]

I guess you'd have to explain to me how its different. If you said the problem with season 1 is that it was stale. Less weapons and specs so it has more of an excuse for being stale. Or season 8 the maximum amount of content the game has seen being stale.

And then if we amp everything up, it'll also be stale.

[hardy dust]

the problem is s1 was that certain strategies were just way too strong (nukes), which lead to everything else just being way worse by default, problem with s8 is that there isnt any changes to balance + new additions not being properly balanced, so we dont have any changes whatsoever

also now that the playerbase is better, having strong options like nukes would be even more oppressive

[unkempt moss]

So if we removed the unintended interactions, would season 1 be better than 8 or worse?

[hardy dust]

hard to say

since s8 is more balanced ad healthier overall than s1, but s1 actually had constant changes

they arent bad in the same way, so comparing them directly is harder

that being said I'd say s1 is better because there was actual effort put in

but s8 could've been better overall

[unkempt moss]

I guess theres two different value system here. I value novelty and I'd say you value health of the game?

Is that correct?

[hardy dust]

somewhere along those lines, I'd say a mix of both moreso, but ig whichever is valued more makes some sense

[unkempt moss]

For me, I am too casual of a player on the finals. I top out around diamond. Mainly because I dont like the way ruby players play the game.

My team usually ends up in high plat at the end of the season because the game gets incredibly boring on the top end. So we end up dropping several ranks due to us attempting to make really dumb things work.

[hardy dust]

yeah I dont really put much effort into the game either

but whenever I get beat real bad by something, if its a skill issue on my part I just dont complain about it

[unkempt moss]

To me, making fun things work and novel interactions are way more valuable. And I'd say that tracks through the larger part of the player base as well.

[hardy dust]

thats fair, I think a good mix of novelty and balance is best

if something is a bit more janky I think it should be a bit weaker, but I dont think that it should be actively nerfed or anything whatsoever

[unkempt moss]

Ive said for a long time that if you only value the top 500 that's all you'll be left with. I think The Finals is more in line with a game like Battlefield, meaning it shouldn't ever be taken seriously. I think its a terrible spectator game.

[hardy dust]

but at the same time, if something is oppressive because you dont know how to play around it because of a personal skill issue, it shouldnt be nerfed

[tepid rose]

BASED

[unkempt moss]

Coming from fighting games I think I'd largely agree with this. There is a novelty factor to winning with offmeta things. As a GooGun main the life of the game, ive seen what it looks like to play offmeta and watch others have no idea how to deal with it. Which is also fun.

[shell sonnet]

i was considering to write about that but was unsure how to properly express it
i am aware that this would include buffing dagger

im just at a loss on how

its a melee weapon on a glass canon, that needs to hit an enemies back
unless you want it to 1-shot when hitting an enemy no matter what, i dont really see what could be done

[hardy dust]

even in that case, it would still be bad overall (if everything else gets buffs). its just not going to ever be good by design in a higher power environment

[unkempt moss]

I actually thknk the GooGun is a prime example of how the game should be made. Its incredibly deep and rewarding if you put in the time and still fun to use if youre brand new.

[shell sonnet]

and with stronger weapons, ttk goes down, you die a lot quicker, making it more about first strike advantage more often
frequently leading to deaths where you couldnt have properly fought back, which doesnt feel well with impactful deaths

[unkempt moss]

My case for the dagger is they need to just merge it with throwing knives. Give the back stab instead of charge throw. But ive also said they need to merge other things.

[hardy dust]

honestly dagger just needs qol buffs and to stop getting nerfs

its always gonna be bad, but it doesnt need to be absolutely terrible

[shell sonnet]

still clinging onto the "(almost) instant charge but cant use specials during charge" idea personally

[hardy dust]

its just nearly impossible to balance by design

revert backstab angle nerf (got nerfed because of misinfo in the first place)
give it the option to tap charge (like tk and old dagger)
lower the charge time
remove movement penalty while charging

giving it the backstab damage against goo and gadgets/specs back would be great too

then any other buffs would probably be better off from a gadget or spec that pairs well with dagger

[shell sonnet]

not sure if the devs want to just backpaddle on previous rebalances though

[unkempt moss]

As I said, ive been away for the majority of S8. Im only back to finish the battle pass and sponsor stuff. Whats the situation on the V9S and Sniper?

[hardy dust]

both are kinda mid

nothing has changed at all

[unkempt moss]

Ive always wondered if giving melee a movement speed buff would work well.

[unkempt moss]

I guess I thought you were being hyperbolic about it being literally nothing.

[hardy dust]

as a general blanket buff for melee I think it could work pretty good, especially for medium melee

[shell sonnet]

on light?
maybe
on medium/heavy? recipe for disaster imo

[hardy dust]

literally nothing 😭

[unkempt moss]

It would be an interesting change i think. Even to just try it in like world tour or something.

[hardy dust]

heavy if winch gets deserved nerfs, and medium needs it cuz riot and dual blade both suck and have always sucked

like all melee, with the exception of sledge, are bottom 1 and 2 weapons in their respective classes

they really need some kind of help

[unkempt moss]

I actually was talking to a friend on how to make charge and slam better for melee. I said put it on a gauge like invis, so it can be toggled on and off quickly. Ramp the damage up from 10 on charge, leave slam the same.

[shell sonnet]

but this buff would probably make them annoying to no end

they need buffs, but not in this way

[unkempt moss]

I feel like almost every game that mixes melee and range, melee always has some sort of movement speed advantage.

[shell sonnet]

quick and repeatable wall breach?
interesting...

[hardy dust]

just a small buff to movement speed, so you can't just hard counter them by literally just walking in a straight line

[unkempt moss]

Yes. Gives it more utility, helps melee, makes it less of a panic button. More like an ungabunga demat

[modest lynx]

Like 2.5-3%?

[hardy dust]

yeah something similar to that, and it could get tweaked anyways depending on performance

[unkempt moss]

Or you could have backpedal receive a speed reduction on ranged weapons. So they have to choose between running or fighting.

[modest lynx]

I feel like 1.5-2% is the way to go if they're gonna go that direction

[hardy dust]

nerfing movement is not gonna feel good

[modest lynx]

Could honestly just be for medium

[hardy dust]

yeah medium needs it the most for sure, but I think heavy (and maybe light) could get it, if winch gets deserved nerfs

[unkempt moss]

You dont really utilize movement in reverse do you? Most movement skill i see comes from lateral or forward movement.

[shell sonnet]

its that very running away that i think keeps them in check partially

like, take riot shield
you see them, if you shoot, they block, if you go for the feet, recoil might screw you, or they start bunny hopping, while theyre also closing in
running away may be your only option
now imagine you cant even do that

they currently dont deserve to have such a trivial counter
but flipping this around would turn them from unhealthy bad into unhealthy good, when other rebalances could make them decent middle of the road perfection

[modest lynx]

Weapon to weapon basis, sword could get like 1.2% and it could go up from there

[shell sonnet]

what those might be?
couldnt tell you
but im very convinced of speed buffs being a very bad idea

[unkempt moss]

Im down for bad ideas for even one week of patches over this boring ass setup we have now.

[modest lynx]

Sword gives the least upfront movement boost cuz lunge but every thing else gives a sprint movement boost

[unkempt moss]

Just throw in world tour call it furious footsies and just see how it goes.

[modest lynx]

No more than 2% could work to allow for out maneuvering

[shell sonnet]

the idea of making a change for specifically 1 week was floaing around before
especially when you know its gonna change back soon, unless its an actual nuke level buff, it wont ruin most peoples enjoyment
(and at most, make them take a break)

maybe even make some people come back when they hear their favorite weapon got buffed

having to worry about a weapon becoming annoying every single week might be a bit much
but 1 week of throwing shit at a wall, followed by reversion and 2 weeks of pre-buff might be a decent compromise though

[unkempt moss]

Im even for more drastic buffs than 2.5%

[hardy dust]

honestly sword doesnt need any movement buffs

it should get angle lock reverted, m2 damage up and m1 damage down

[shell sonnet]

as long as its any faster than the class its on, its gonna win out and potentially backfire

[shell sonnet]

personally quite fond of angle lock
i hated helicopter lights

[hardy dust]

if embark is deadset on angle lock it should be way more than 40

[modest lynx]

I agree as a sword main, cuz using dash to manipulate the lunge hitbox "shape" is way cooler looking

[unkempt moss]

I think its dumb looking to have someone lunge a sword at me, then wiggle it around like a pool noodle because they want to abuse an active hit box. So im fine with angle lock as well.

[modest lynx]

65⁰ horizontally could be a good max angle

[unkempt moss]

Its like giving the heavy decent forward movement on spear spin2lose. It kinda defeats the purpose of giving something strengths and weakness

[shell sonnet]

Since we got a decent discussion going, would yall give me some feedback on my turret rework from earlier?

[unkempt moss]

I have to run to the store. Reply to it and I'll check it when I get back.

[shell sonnet]

That one

Ill be off in a bit, cya

[unkempt moss]

Was this in regard to the new mode?

[shell sonnet]

No
Just turret rework as is

[unkempt moss]

I feel like that's when I saw it. I'll gibe it a good look and then reply to it when I get back.

[wild zenith]

do yall reccomend dot crosshair or box for shotguns?

[sudden pewter]

None of the above. Shotguns don’t benefit from a headshot multiplier, just aim for the body.

[wild zenith]

what does that have to do with crosshairs?

[sudden pewter]

Why ADS when you can just fire from the hip? There’s no hipfire penalty with shotguns. ADS just makes you a slower target.

The only reason to put a sight on a shotgun at current is for aesthetics

[wild zenith]

"crosshair" in the game settings refers to the crosshair you have in hipfire

the ads are called "sights"

[sudden pewter]

Oh the crosshair. My bad.
I just use a modified cross for everything. No need to swap between them

[wild zenith]

i mostly use dot, but using a box (by maxing out the width on a cross) also feels pretty good

dot is the best at telling how far you need to flick, but box lets you make a crosshair that is exactly the size of the spread

[unkempt moss]

I think this would be fine for a buff. Increasing damage and adding lock on time.

I think a nice buff for this would be that anything its attempting to log on to would need to be pinged like a proximity sensor. I think this helps it give some sort of utility outside of its offense which is I think the number one problem with turret. Its not really a play maker, with this ping you could make plays out of it.

On berserk mode: i think if you were to implement something like this it would need to operate differently. I think it would need to work more like the leadburster from DeepRock. Activating on recall or destruction. Having a separate mode would kind of violate the principal of it acting autonomously.

I think these couple changes would certainly make it more appealing to use for sure.

[shell sonnet]

Turns out im still awake (yikes)

Pinging the locked on play would be good, since it also warns them

But im not so sure about the 2nd part
If it activated automatically on destruction, it eould punish the player even more for trying to get rid of it

It does kind of break the autonomously thing
But to make it more interesting that might need to happen
And setting traps seems like a neat interaction

[wild zenith]

i still dont understand why people think v9s is like, this terrible borderline unusable weapon

[tawdry glen]

It’s actually pretty good ngl

[wild zenith]

everytime theres discussion about it people state things that are simply wrong

[unkempt moss]

Maybe make it so it can be disarmed if youre close? Like how you can throw chuck away? Hold E to disarm maybe?

Otherwise killing from range would be pretty much safe. The leadburster isnt good at range it basically has to be right on top

[spice spruce]

We should give heavy a morph ball spec

[unkempt moss]

Like from Metroid?

[spice spruce]

Yes.

[unkempt moss]

Replace charge and slam, and make Wrecking Ball a thing. Im on board with the morph ball

[spice spruce]

Balls are pretty cool

[unkempt moss]

I love balls

[wild zenith]

i think a significant part of 93r's prevelance is due to it synergizing with the meta, rather than its own strength

it synergizes with the meta guns of the other classes, repeater and bfr, because any two of these guns can combine to two tap mediums with headshots, killing them isntantly if both players shoot at the same time

and the gap between shots is something that dash can take advantage of better than the other specs, which are currently unviable

if repeater, bfr, and dash were less unanimous, 93r would become a much weaker pick, even left completely unchanged

[eager wasp]

well no not exactly, even in the majors (where bfr was banned) it was still a great pic, and if dash was less prominent it would make it even better bc then people can't get away as easily

[wild zenith]

why would dash becoming less prominent benefit 93r more than other guns?

[eager wasp]

because you can get that double burst off really fast, without the quick getaway of dash, its kinda ggs for other lights, so anyone with good aim is going to melt the competition

that dash is what saves so many people from a quick death

if they have a fast enough reaction time ofc

[wild zenith]

doesnt it have a slower ttk than arn and xp tho?

[wild zenith]

wiki could be wrong

[eager wasp]

idk what the ttks and numbers are for much im kinda just speaking off what ove seen from majors and experience tbh

[wild zenith]

my interpetation is that

the reason 93r is so strong is because the gap allows the light to dash around without losing dps

you can burst, dash, burst, dash

with an automatic, you receive accuracy penalties if you shoot mid-dash (and you also have to deal with nasty screen shake)

and, as stated, you can combine with a repeater to kill a medium or light instantly

[worldly schooner]

it's also just kinda insanely strong, two head burst and L is dead, m weak, H half or so

[wild zenith]

again, its ttk is slow by light weapon standards

[eager wasp]

i guess but i don't think nerfing dash would be very beneficial overrall to light

[worldly schooner]

it just doesn't feel that way but the numbers don't lie

[wild zenith]

https://www.thefinals.wiki/wiki/93R

https://www.thefinals.wiki/wiki/ARN-220

https://www.thefinals.wiki/wiki/XP-54

[worldly schooner]

oh no I've looked, I believe you

[eager wasp]

isn't that for headshots tho

arn wins in headshot damage, 93r wins body damage

[wild zenith]

only vs light

[eager wasp]

oh yeah woops my fault i was switching between the two so i was on the wrong one switching back and forth

[noble saddle]

I started memeing around with MGL, Charge, Barricade, Smoke Nade, Pyro Mine as a loadout

Honestly kinda fun lol, I feel like a proper tank. I'm an absolutely terrible duelist but I'm an incredible disruptor and distraction

[fierce wolf]

unpopular opnion: V9S is the best

[indigo nexus]

It is good!

Although it’s not meta I think it’s my best performing light weapon

Since I like to hipfire a lot one might expect 93r to do better for me, but the mag size difference between the weapons is just massive and that makes the difference for me

[bleak osprey]

when embark gonna add kriss vector in the game

honestly vectorl irl have a downward recoil and short range but hell of a fire rate

and can act like both a automatic smg and burst smg

for the game like this vector can have a switching button for like holding qm vutton or relode button for a long time

or have a feature like arn for absurdly high fire rate and downward recoil

like 18 18 per mag and switching is fast

[shell sonnet]

to what class?

[bleak osprey]

and can be change to burst like 93r but can have a more recoil rate downwards

[outer crow]

Repair wrench for repairing buildables and dispencer would be nice to see

[bleak osprey]

i think it would most sutaible for medium

[shell sonnet]

heavy is supposed to be close range and doesnt have an smg i think...

[bleak osprey]

we can have like a first shared wepon

[shell sonnet]

holding your tablet up to it while tippy tapping on it 🔥

tetris animation bundle

[outer crow]

TF2 engineer

[bleak osprey]

like for heavy we could add double vector and removing arn type from vector

and make go more down

and make range and hip fire kind of shit

[shell sonnet]

hitting it with your tablet

[bleak osprey]

like .50 akimbo but for short range

[bleak osprey]

we can get it now as of s9 is adding tablet skins

[shell sonnet]

✅

[unkempt moss]

Can we get a subway surfer video for the tablet

[undone kiln]

With orf characters would be diabolically funny , or flappy birds, doomscrolling even

We’re getting stickers for it why not make it full inspect with funny inspection

[noble saddle]

If he got a slightly easier to use but less rewarding version of the SHAK in the form of UMP 45 I think it would be fitting.

I'd balance it like the AK, lower DPS but higher mag size. Similar effective range.

Another thing though is embark kinda doesn't like giving heavy normal guns they have to be beefed up in some way.

It could be as simple as he carries the gun with one hand so the UMP for the heavy feels like you're using a mini Uzi

Maybe not UMP, but also having a 50 cal smg would kinda work for the heavy

[shell sonnet]

bit worried about oversaturation of weapons though
same niche, slight differences
adds to the bloat

[noble saddle]

I've done reading, APC 45 may be the fit

I personally don't mind a bunch of guns in the same category that have slight differences so they synergize with different gadgets just enough to make them feel unique.

Like when I play FCAR on medium I'm not creating walls of goo nearly as often to poke from and then chase like I do with the AK y'know.

[eager wasp]

i see so many people asking for such similar weapons to what we already have and im like bruh, thats so boring, i really want more FUN and unique weapons to be getting into the game not basically repeats

[shell sonnet]

also, bloat causes problems
we already had 3 ar's and a dmr for medium
so to even compete repeater needs to be the way it is, which a bunch of people dont like

and now we we couldnt even rework pike to be what repeater is, and its having trouble too

[noble saddle]

I personally really like the balance between FCAR and AK, FAMAS kinda feels like it's failing to occupy a niche it just kinda outclasses both of them at the cost of being significantly less Swaggy

[noble saddle]

All you gotta do to rework the pike is give it more sight options lol stg

The reason why it's weak is because it's needlessly hard to aim

If I can put a red dot on that thing I'd be cooking

Rn pike just kinda feels like a shitty LH1

[gleaming aspen]

yea they nerfed it into the ground

[noble saddle]

I think all you gotta do to rework the FAMAS is to nerf it's body shot damage, increase it's headshot damage make it the Marksman's AR

If you think you can hit heads in mid range consistently, but don't want to use repeater or pike, FAMAS should be the gun you go for

Rn it's just way too good, super easy to just spam in a general direction and shred people. Nerf the body shot TTK and now it's a weapon that actually takes skill.

I essentially picture it's playstyle as something between the Pike and FCAR

[faint steppe]

FAMAS is already a gun that benefits a lot from headshots. If you only hit bodyshots you should play other weapons like the Repeater or even FCAR/AK.

Also, I really don't get the obsession with wanting to nerf it. It's already in a balanced spot and Medium has nothing that can be considered overpowered besides Repeater (and Defib but Embark wants it to be part of the class identity)

[noble saddle]

I think FAMAS is not balanced because its just too well rounded, and I don't think the solution is to buff every other medium gun to its level. It's much easier to just make it occupy more of a niche, especially since nearly all other medium weapons feel incredibly well balanced with more clear pros and cons

The most broken part of mediums kit is the defib though, as much as I want to see a small nerf to FAMAS I think making the defib significantly less meta somehow opens up a lot for medium

[placid slate]

"Buff every other medium weapon" 🥀

[noble saddle]

I said I don't think that's the solution, I think mediums weapons all feel really healthy. The FAMAS just does a lot of everything at once

[stuck knot]

How would you nerf the defib?

[placid slate]

I love illiteracy

Too tired to read

[noble saddle]

I think if you're gonna have it, make it a specialty and not a gadget.

Giving up the Medgun or Demat for the Defib nerfs a lot of mediums utility while the team is up.

I think it's worth it cause insta res is insane

[stuck knot]

I don’t think the community would like that

[faint steppe]

I don't care if they wanna nerf the hipfire but I just don't see how it's overpowered enough to warrant a change like you said. Pretty much all the weapons in this game are easy to use tbh.

[faint steppe]

Making Defib a spec would be ridiculous. It's strong but all the other classes have insanely strong gadgets like Gateway, Dome, Glitch, RPG

[noble saddle]

I think defib as specialty supports medium as a dive support, Medgun and Demat both feel more skewed towards sustain and poke

Also you could just do double medium if you want Medgun or Demat

[eager wasp]

you'd have to buff defibs if you were going to make it a spec

[noble saddle]

Yeah I'd be for that sure

I just don't like it as a gadget, I want to run pad, goo for sure and I don't like that my third spot there needs to be defib or my team immediately thinks I'm trolling/throwing

That's what I hate about defib. It's basically a must pick if the class is to be played competitively. I think as a spec it's not a must pick anymore and instead supports a specific gameplan

[noble saddle]

I think it's fine that light gets the most powerful gadgets of all classes that's kinda the thing with the class.

Also I don't think that gateway is a must pick at all levels of play the same way that defib is y'know? Gateway is significantly more skill expressive.

Defib is just a boring gadget I use to brainlessly carry randos who have no actual skill at the game lmao I really don't like it

Also medium has a fair amount of really strong gadgets that just aren't insane enough to justify dropping defib I feel right now as long as defib stays a gadget

I think defib is boring to play with and insanely frustrating to play against. Which is like the worst thing you can have especially since it's meta

[sudden pewter]

Defib is not a must-pick

And most certainly should not be a spec

[faint steppe]

All the classes have "must pick" gadgets. And if you don't wanna play meta you don't have to. You can easily do anything in this game without ever picking it.

Also Gateway is definitely in a comparable spot if you want to compare their impact. But again you can easily play whatever you want.

Ultimately Embark has shown that they want to balance Medium around Defib and that's fine. It's very strong but currently it's all that's left of Medium's identity. Light has already gotten the better healing tool as a gadgets.

[noble saddle]

I think the problem is that it's an essential gadget but it's probably the least interesting part of the class.

They gotta do something with it to make it more fun to use and fun to play against. I thought making it a spec would solve the issue as it would make team fights feel like a cat and mouse game against defib mediums (like it kinda already does but the medium is a more powerful mouse with defib as a gadget)

My thought was if I'm not running defib spec I'm gameplanning to have a more buffed team in the team fight, but if I'm running defib i now gameplan to play more divey and take more risks with trades etc

[sudden pewter]

Nothing burger

[fervent stone]

Typing this to get level 1

[sudden pewter]

If you spam in here I will have you blood eagled. Keep it in #💥┇spawn-point or #⚡┇the-finals-chat

This is hallowed ground. 35 messages isn’t a big ask!

[noble saddle]

Insta resses almost never feel good in games and I don't think defib is an exception to that rule yet.

Embark has to make it work cause it's here to stay but I really don't enjoy how it impacts team fights idk

I don't see how any medium player actually enjoys using it, but I could be a part of a minority

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856603795738722307/1425920121473470554/togif.gif

[noble saddle]

How come you think defib is fine fr other than an argument of "well it's always been there"

Medium is such a fun class otherwise, med gun, demat, it's particular use of goo nades, basically every gun it has, ziplines, etc all that stuff to me is more fun than the heavy or light but it's got defib that feels like a tumor lmao

[outer crow]

if nerfing defib more, it will become useless garbage

its already mostly not worth using defib without being medic

just better revive with hands for full health

[noble saddle]

Well you could buff the defib when making it a spec because yeah you're giving up med gun and Demat

Maybe that would make it more toxic though

[outer crow]

defib spec will be very bad idea - i guarantee

[noble saddle]

Do we not like defib as a spec because it'll be useless or do we not like it because it would be broken

[outer crow]

1

it cannot be broken as a spec in any way bruh

[noble saddle]

Defib as-is would be underpowered as spec sure but what if you buffed it's range, ressed teammates at full HP and maybe even didn't even do the cooldown pause on res.

Like as a gadget that's busted but as a spec you're giving up some other powerful stuff to run it.

[outer crow]

well if u say so....it could be tested in experimental mode then to check

cant say anything about it without tests

[sudden pewter]

Because defib has obvious downsides.

• Revive at 50% health
• 5s Revive Sickness (no gadgets/specs)
• Revive at death-state (ammo doesn’t refill so often you need to reload)
• Potential to feed kills with improper use

[outer crow]

but personally i will still pick med gun because it saved my teammates in some situations so much

[sudden pewter]

Defib isn’t a spec, stop comparing a gadget to HealBeam and Demat

Specs are playstyles, defib is not

[noble saddle]

Solid point in that discussion on making it a playstyle is meaningless anyway cause it's always gonna be a gadget lol but y'know not the first time someone's just yapped on a discord server

[outer crow]

yea, i just cant imagine defib as playstyle 🤷‍♂️

this spec will basicly leave u without spec

[noble saddle]

Defib as playstyle would be the thing to run in pubs when paired with double lights probably lol

[outer crow]

dont remind those nightmares please 😭

[noble saddle]

That's actually a problem with medium cause man does this class feel bad at supporting double lights, and it should have a way to do it given that it is the support class

[stuck knot]

Like it’s pretty hard to suport a team that gets one shoted by one headshot i

[spring spear]

idk why people think defib should be a spec or healbeam a gadget

its so dumb

[wild zenith]

This was originally proposed as an alternative to nerfing demat

[spring spear]

i cant even begin to wrap my head around the logic, sorry
but the idea of turning healbeam into a gadget or defib into a spec has been around long before that, ive seen other people mention it

[wild zenith]

well defib is still a borderline must take

not every medium wants to play defib but they get flamed for not taking it. It forces medium to play a relatively passive playstyle

but, the ways to nerf it are limited. Most means of nerfing it punish the defib target for a bad defib instead of the defib user

so nerfing it while it remains a gadget will just make the game feel worse to play and it will probably still be ubiquitous

changing it to a spec nerfs it by instead increasing the opportunity cost of having it in your loadout

[outer crow]

healbeam should stay spec

[sudden pewter]

I agree

[indigo nexus]

I agree with both points in isolation but would like the two to be not mutually exclusive

[sudden pewter]

Exp-

What happened to you. What are you a little chair bound critter

[noble saddle]

Who saying that beam should be a gadget that's actually insane take

[spring spear]

ive seen people say it yeah and the logic is "well heavy and light have their healing as gadgets"

[noble saddle]

Ii know this is mad unpopular but I'd totally be down for defib to be nerfed out of the game 😂

Not the most satisfying thing but for me defib is like, that unhealthy.

It's not even a matter of broken vs not broken it's just how it makes the gameplay feel. I want to have the space in my inventory to use a third gadget that isn't defib and the same time I don't want to be put up against a medium that is running it when nobody on my team has it.

Like yeah there's counterplay, kill the medium, camp the statue etc but it just is all frustrating

[wild zenith]

some mechanics will never not be good unless they feel horrific to use

[noble saddle]

I've never seen an instant res mechanic be satisfying and fun in a shooter game

[wild zenith]

also tying respawn time to how close you are to teammates massively linearizes positioning

[modest lynx]

Could be on the tablet instead of taking up screen space

[noble saddle]

Medium just kinda has a stale meta loadout. Goo and jump pad are really fun to use so it's fine and I enjoy running it, but I just kinda feel forced to run goo, pad, defib, beam if I want to play competitively, would like to have some leeway with that defib slot and not have it cause a team throw immediately

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, I’m not opposed to the idea

[modest lynx]

Have the Tablet display color or logo or both

[noble saddle]

Heavy and light competitive loadouts aren't nearly as rigid as medium imo

[noble saddle]

Fights take place in small areas anyway this downside is not that big of a deal imo especially cause medium has stuff like jump pad they can use and also you can throw the statue to the medium if you're the third

[wild zenith]

im terminally flankbrained

gimme breach charge buff embark

[indigo nexus]

If you knew me a little earlier there was a long time where I changed my PFP every day or so. The thing in the chair, that represents me. My last PFP, which I think overstayed its welcome, was an abstract representation of it.

[spring jacinth]

I wish we could throw the spear.

that or the heavy getting a 50 cal sniper thats high damage slow fire rate. A railgun even?

[indigo nexus]

this is my 'base' pfp

And here’s a few of the brief ones I used in the past, of which there are like 650

I stopped doing it frequently because it was hard to have new ideas and I was busier.

[jaunty warren]

make it so once you press a RMB button on Data Reshaper = every chair and box around you in certain radius transforms automatically into explosives and stuff, while LBM would work the same way as now + once you equip Data Reshaper, all "reshapeable" objects should glow from distance, so if you need something, you can run towards light and not search for chair or box.

[unkempt moss]

I agree but they always say you cant do that because of "muh skins" which always a great sign for a game when you take in to account skins when balancing.

[potent mortar]

I think its dumb looking to have someone lunge a sword at me, then wiggle it around like a pool noodle because they want to abuse an active hit box. So im fine with angle lock as well. (Bearbeitet)Samstag, 6. Dezember 2025 03:06
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@Sarge Mittens|REVERT MELEE NERFS

ちいかわ
if embark is deadset on angle lock it should be way more than 40

[unkempt moss]

This a bot or something?

[polar cedar]

bfr titan

[stiff vine]

winch deals 1 damage in season 9

and i just realized they buffed mesh to 850 health as well

[unkempt moss]

Was the winch damage the main problem?

[spring jacinth]

the revolver?

[placid slate]

Do a nullifier where you make it so irrelevant it's never seen again

[indigo nexus]

no, but it does restrict the balance a little

[sudden pewter]

Sexellent

[amber epoch]

the winch in this game is a major issue and i feel like no ones talking about it. genuinely every match is just winch and insta kills, there are fewer light players than ever in favour of heavy which is constantly buffed over and over

[sudden pewter]

Dawg people deadass won’t shut up about it. You must be new here

[indigo nexus]

It’s surely the most popular topic, at least over a long enough time period

[wild zenith]

i think winch should have more range, but everything else nerfed

[unkempt moss]

I just feel like they are going to nuke it and then shield will be the meta again and people will just complain about that. I hope they have found a way to make it work but damn

[sudden pewter]

Shield will be meta again, Winch is so strong any counter will see more use (at least casually)

[dense meadow]

I think having extremely easy to access counterplay for winch will generally be a good thing for the casual player base. I'm pretty hyped for the new season 🙂

[fresh mango]

When heat vision coming back?

[edgy estuary]

Nah goo gun will be meta when people realise how 20 ammo is basically unlimited if you play it right, the mobility, and the stun lock potential. I’m calling it now, there will be goo everywhere

[unkempt moss]

GooGun has been the strongest spec. It counter plays winch if you are fast enough. Problem is GooGun takes too much effort for the majority of players.

The casual player isn't going to want to log in and learn all the tech required to make it busted.

[ruby kraken]

when are they gonna make infrared eye available again?

[unkempt moss]

Theyre probably keeping it out until they have good anticheat. Just run smoke and free farm "thank you for reporting" notifications.

[edgy estuary]

I reckon they will just see you can stun lock with it and use it purely for that, I hope I am wrong because I love a good goo gun heavy, absolute freaks with the things they can do with that gun, I’d hate for it to become a meta.

[unkempt moss]

Most you'll see is probably bridges, a ton of missed goolocks because of the servers, and gooinforcement of rooms.

Youre not going to be getting crazy shit and since the shield blocks winch now that's going to be what people run.

[noble saddle]

Defib doesn't even have that much for great skins. The irons and the wires are ok but most of its skins are just recolors

[unkempt moss]

Ive always said just make the mediums have a faster revive passive and give then the animations for defibrillator on it.

[noble saddle]

Small nitpick about that idea but for immersion sake if im playing a build that doesn't have any support function at all but it still can defib it doesn't feel right.

I like the flexibility of medium in that it's possible to build it to have 0 support function. Not meta, sure but still possible

[unkempt moss]

I just hate that if you dont bring defib, even though people will say its terrible, you get flamed and its been a must pick for 8 seasons.

I think it invalidates too much of the game, and theres nothing in the game as powerful as bringing an entire kit back, on a short cool down

If you make it a passive it opens up a lot more variation in kit

[noble saddle]

Yeah it's one of those things that overwhelmingly if you're playing solo you'll be accused of throwing if you don't run it even though people think it's not a "must pick" frustrating cause it's boring to use but not running it gives me this annoying burden where I have to over perform for a team that's gonna be salty at game start

Not worth the headache

[unkempt moss]

Even as a duo, the friendless loser always demands someone but themselves uses defib vecause they play light exclusively.

Light players are a burden, I wouldn't ask for nerfs if light players were just cool fellas. Generally they're awful.

[grave spire]

Nerf the cl40

[jolly knoll]

i disagree, although im a cl40 main

[iron zenith]

they need to fix lunges

[rugged birch]

The cl40 needs a slight nerf

[unkempt moss]

CL40 should be stronger. It farms light tears.

[grave spire]

Yeea

[grave spire]

Light main here BTW

[jolly knoll]

its already gotten a slight nerf

[topaz steeple]

Mr. Heals is here.

I love the H+infuser, it makes light both the medic and able to frag for kills, unlike medium, being just the medic

[edgy estuary]

Nah good mediums can hold their own in K/D/A too, thinking you can be “support only” in this game when matched against absolute monsters is just putting yourself and your team at a disadvantage, like yeah heal and support your team as a priority, but learn how to take 1v1s against each class, learn when you need to be healing vs be the extra bullets your team needs.

[topaz steeple]

Guess i don't play with good mediums (i cans say anything though, i SUCK at playing medium, and can't help anyone, and by my previous message, you can twll i play light)

I wish i could play medium well, but i can't

[edgy estuary]

There were a few great support mediums in the pro tournament who showed the juggling of healing and damage output really well.

[topaz steeple]

Yeah, i saw that, but most people either play one of the extremes, light and medium if they can't keep the balance, like me, i deeply respect someone who can do that with medium, i usually either heal well, kill well, or do both kinda average, not both well with light

[silent holly]

No new weapons this season?

[sonic zephyr]

nothing except a new map

[spice coyote]

Good, better to just balance what we already have

[placid slate]

You think they're actually gonna do that?

[spice coyote]

That was a key point in the Season 9, reveal yes. QoL + Balancing. I expect there to be a lot

[placid slate]

If the highlight of the changes is a fucking reload speed buff the rest are gonna be cheeks

[spice coyote]

Did they say that? I only remember the winch change, but obviously they’re not going to go too in depth in a short teaser

[placid slate]

Yes, they'd obviously focus on the biggest changes, which means that there is absolutely fuckall hype worthy shit there if that's only of the biggest changes they'll make

[spice coyote]

I guess we’ll see when the patch notes release 🤷‍♂️

[placid slate]

Or when the preview drops

[spice coyote]

Yeah I’m pumped for that

[sonic zephyr]

cant wait for the only changes for this season aside from what was mentioned in the stream to be charge n'slam nerf and hit-reg fixes for dual blades (they wont work)

[plucky spade]

Well, winch and model were asked for for years

[unkempt moss]

And it was only a couple seasons ago that all the mfs were begging for the model to be nerfed as hard as it was. And the multiple winch nerfs in the past haven't satiated the hive mind.

Now mesh is being buffed again after the hive mind removed it from the game. They need to stop listening to the player base and just form a cohesive design philosophy to guide them.

[plucky spade]

I fucking wonder why a hard cc ability in an fps is annoying as fuck and hard to balance

[unkempt moss]

I like when my primary ability feels strong. Demat, dash, and winch feel strong. Its fun to use for that reason. They just need to amp the other specs instead of bringing the fun stuff to the ground.

[sudden pewter]

I agree specs should feel strong but the “only buff never nerf” mindset is incredibly dumb

This is a PvP game, not a PvE game. If we only ever buff everything becomes OP. I understand “If everything is OP then nothing is” but if the damage gets out of hand it fucks with TTK that’s curated by design

When things step out of line they should be brought back some paces. StunGun was annoying so it was reworked, Winch has the same stun mechanic and should be reworked.

[weak kernel]

even in a PvE game "only buff never nerf" is unbearable dogshit tbh

[sudden pewter]

I agree but I have to be nice

My point in bringing it up is that with PvP there’s player strength to consider but also the opposite end that needs to be taken into account

An NPC won’t complain if it gets two tapped because it positioned poorly

[weak kernel]

i've always enjoyed games with a kitchen sink "everything is kinda fucked up" balance approach and I do feel that the game has gotten a bit more sterile as it's gotten more tightly balanced

[sudden pewter]

Embark seems to be trying to foster a competitive scene so I don’t believe “fuck it we ball” balance is on the table

[weak kernel]

#bringbacknuke

[sudden pewter]

I wish there was a publicly accessible design doc that that outlined the “roles” each archetype is intended to have in relation to specs, as well as where weapons are supposed to find their Goldilocks zone. So if something is out of place we have something we can point to

[weak kernel]

i mean they're very willing to change roles seeing as they gave light direct support so i doubt it would be that helpful

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, it would need to be updated over time

Embarks been terrible with communication beyond patchnotes and I’d love to see more clarity

The several paragraphs detailing Melee Tech and why they nerfed sledge (even if misguided) was fantastic

[weak kernel]

heavy's role is very clear, medium has kinda done everything at different parts of the game's life and light is hard to define because light's kinda struggled with a concrete role for most of the game's existence lol

light is a flanker with some support, medium is consistent damage, support, and was also a really effective flanker for a minute at peak demat

[sudden pewter]

Demat nerf was completely valid

[weak kernel]

and heavy is close range space control which is what wins games

[sudden pewter]

Heavy is what I would consider a FrontLiner, first in last out. Where the nuance of the archetype comes from is the lack of movement options. He relies on Medium to send him in or using utilities/specs to breach into defender locations from off angles

Medium is most effective (in a comp setting) orbiting the Heavy and providing support/teamfire

Light is supposed to circle the outskirts for opportunities to get picks but that’s a very risky/difficult role to nail down

(This is embarks intent as I understand it feel free to disagree)

Again, would love to pick the brains of the balance team or have some form of insight into their “rules”

[weak kernel]

the way i look at it in the average match i'd say
medium controls sightlines and is the priority pick mostly because of defib
heavy hypothetically wins every 1v1 up close so he facilitates holding or taking close-range space which is literally the game
light is a pest that punishes you for being out of position, mostly

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, high level elo and standard play are two different games

Finding a balance between the two is tricky

[weak kernel]

it's funny that light is such a plague on casual players because I don't think good light players really exist in numbers in regular play, they just bank on people missing

[placid slate]

"Years" bro the game is like 2 years old

[placid slate]

I mean quick cash is full of people ripping on their teammates for going for the kill rather than stealing, when it's infinitely easier to steal when everyone is dead. They aren't exactly the biggest critical thinkers

[errant pawn]

when is my beloved thermakl vision coming back?

[plucky spade]

Brodie the moment winch appeared people were calling for nerfs for it.

And ok not years but year

[spring spear]

thats still years since winch has been here since s3

[unkempt moss]

You dont have to be nice. Its actually really shitty when people put this have to be nice to foster discussion idea out there. Because nothing is ever said of worth. You guys spend too much time being nice rather than discussing.

My feeling is we've let people woth your philosophy of trying to balance and nerf things and the game has only gotten more boring. Chasing the esports dragon in my opinion has turned the absolute best most unique shooter maybe ever, in to something trying to be everytbing else. It feels like its built in a reddit think tank more and more every season.

I made a post a long time ago about swapping around gadgets and weapons in ways I felt were more cohesive to the actual identity of what the classes seems to be. Because theres a ton of gadget placements that don't make a lick of sense if you want classes to have actual roles and limits

But the most thinking people do on here is "uhh that's unhealthy for esports" or "ruby said this so now that's what I believe"

[unkempt moss]

I think its pretty obvious when he said years he was using it meaning multiple seasons. The guy thag said that was being dense.

[unkempt moss]

I think they have given up on roles completely and want you to assign roles within your own team comp. But theres some interview or something where they said roles like in season 2 and since then everyone has said "but muh dev said roles" so we can't move past it

[placid slate]

Year and a half

[serene glade]

Game balanced around fun yet again? or are we still clinging to esports that pulls 14k viewers (drops on)

[unkempt moss]

We're diving harder in to esports.

It has to be fair and balanced to be fun, chud. So esports are fun.

[sudden pewter]

I agree but I also need to give leeway to the brainless idiots

If I go full offensive on someone because they’re a stupid idiot that knows nothing other than how to breathe they’ll shut down any avenue of learning because they’re on the defensive

But if I play nice, they’re generally more receptive, not all the time unfortunately

[unkempt moss]

Says who? Most of the discord cant infer or extrapolate so just say what you want to say and people who are worth talking to will show up.

[sudden pewter]

Fair

Introspection is dead

[unkempt moss]

Like when I say, I want to buff everything 95% of the discord thinks "you can't just buff everything!" Obviously if something is exploitative or insane it can be nerfed. But they wont draw that from what I've said, so I only want to talk to that 5%

[serene glade]

You can't make multiple changes, it's a set and forget system. Gotta get it right on the first go

[sudden pewter]

The quality of feedback in general is awful here

[serene glade]

It's tough balancing around 2 tick rate servers, they are working their best!!!

[sudden pewter]

Moreso #👂┇game-feedback than this channel specifically

[unkempt moss]

Someone who's willing to talk and discuss will understand that buff everything means even the things I don't like should be strong. I absolutely hate light players but I still want them to be strong and fun because I do play light on occasion.

But I don't want heavy to be the lightning rod for light being stronger because heavy is becoming less fun to play.

[unkempt moss]

That channel is literally "I just lost to this and im angry" on a five hour cooldown. Its aids.

[sudden pewter]

Lights will always complain because they’re both the weakest and strongest archetype while also being the most numerous

[serene glade]

The games weapons are balanced entirely around them. It's probably the biggest flaw in game design/balance wise

[unkempt moss]

You shouldn't have to get one shot if you're way out of position playing the lowest health class, bud. Shoot AR and buy second gamepass of the season

[unkempt moss]

I think a lot of people dont understand that paper dragons are meant to be the high skill ceiling class, but we keep making it easier to play rather than more technical.

[sudden pewter]

I agree

[placid slate]

They aren't the strongest tho, only to the lobomites quarantined in like powershift or something

[sudden pewter]

Correct

[placid slate]

They are definitely the weakest considering medium and heavy are better

Mfs entire existence above plat almost hangs off of the h+ infuser

[unkempt moss]

What are we defining as weak? Do they have to be equally represented in the highest level of play?

[placid slate]

Weakest

[serene glade]

95%

[placid slate]

Of what

[serene glade]

[unkempt moss]

Are they the weakest or just difficult to play at high level?

[sudden pewter]

Definitely difficult to play at higher levels due to punish potential

Whereas they’re significantly easier to play at lower levels

[unkempt moss]

I agree with that. Lights demolish low level players. Now, if something is difficult should it be represented equally across entire populations?

[compact tundra]

Personally I see light as both difficult to play and difficult to fight, so in lower levels even bad lights can get by pretty well because lights just hard to hit, but the better the opponents get, the more skilled the light needs to be to not get shredded

[unkempt moss]

The high damage low recoil guns will basically carry you to high plat if your aren't just standing in the open. Its similar how heavy health will do the same.

The problem is that people hit a point where they have to think and notice what they're getting smoked by for the first time. So instead of saying what's dumb that I did, they say its dumb that they balance it this way.

[compact tundra]

Yea I kinda agree, I definitely don't think it'll carry you all the way to high plat, maybe mid gold but unless you're on a team, you won't get much higher than gold solo queuing as a mediocre light.

But I agree with the overall sentiment

[unkempt moss]

Im just going by my own experience with that, so you coulf be right. Its probably subject to one's game knowledge and stuff. We just did a season where played light exclusively as a duo and it was basically high plat before we started seeing any pushback.

6 seasons of heavy probably gives you enough game knowledge to take something unfamiliar that high.

[compact tundra]

That's fair, my ranked experience is solo que season 6 & 7 sword and going past high gold was so hard for me, but maybe a decent more meta leaning light could do it well, I just don't see a light whose bad with their gadgets getting much higher than gold with solo que, again add a team to that and you'll probably hit plat

[unkempt moss]

When did they nerf sword? That probably didnt help. I think it was 7.

[compact tundra]

It was the beginning of season 6 it got the nerf, and then season 7 they reworked it and added lunge clamp

I only tried rank with post nerf sword

I also play grapple sword with gateway, vanish bomb/breach charge, and H+/sonar grenade. So I'm certainly not a meta loadout

But I do get to move real good

I by far worked best when I had 2 heavies I could always keep on the defensive and could support

[unkempt moss]

You can make it work. Once we get the gun skins we want my group usually just makes stupid load outs and runs ranked. I think having a weird kit is within the spirit of the game. Its in the game, it should be fun.

Embark got a real hate for melee a couple seasons ago and I'm not sure why

[compact tundra]

Oh it's fun, I move at real fast, just I move at real fast straight into my death

[compact tundra]

It's really punishing against lower skill players and lackluster against good players, it's in a very difficult balancing spot

And they decided having new players not be frustrated is worth more than melee players being viable

[unkempt moss]

My stance on sword is that they need to swap sword and dual blades between light and medium. The block is way more meaningful on light, and the lunge is more meaningful on medium.

It would need some tweaking but people just deny it immediately.

Grapple hook with a blocking dual blade would be insanely fun to gap close.

The walk speed means it could stay on someone. I just think it's the play.

[compact tundra]

Eh I kinda disagree with that but I see where your coming from, mediums biggest melee issue is closing the distance and light biggest melee issue is survivability so over all it'd be a good change. But I feel it falls way too far into the problem of ruining what people like about weapons, kinda how sword clamp killed combos and therefore killed a lot of sword mains fun, moving these weapons would ruin the fun for a lot of people even tho it might make balancing sense

[unkempt moss]

I just think they could find a way to have more fun with it if you tried. But i also just want to try it

I wish we could mix and match things like they can in private mode

[serene glade]

Fun in the big 2025 year of Esports. Not happening

[compact tundra]

It'd be a really fun event, we could have light dual blades, medium sword, and heavy dagger. But I think for the base game it changes things too much for the current mains

[compact tundra]

Oh I so agree, I hate how they keep restricting private matches rather than letting us get as creative and goofy as we want

[unkempt moss]

I actually want riot shield on heavy so bad.

[compact tundra]

Oh god I can hear the temper tantrums in #👂┇game-feedback already

[unkempt moss]

They'd never catch anyone, so it would be fine.

[compact tundra]

That would be hilarious and honestly not that bad an idea but it would it be hated by done players

[compact tundra]

Eh a heavy with good movement is scary, that's the only reason I can get kills with sledge

[unkempt moss]

But youre touching on the right thing they're. They have good movement. Its an acquired skill.

That shoild be rewarded.

[serene glade]

Good movement is not enough to catch up to a class who's walking speed is slightly slower than you're sprint speed most the time unfortunately

[compact tundra]

I agree but I think swapping weapons is a big deal, the only weapon I'd personal advocate for swapping us Cerberus. I think Cerberus should be an alternate to the double barrel and medium should get a dragons breath shotgun closer to the model, I think it'd help balancing that difficult weapon a lot

[compact tundra]

Yea, that's where winch, mesh, and lockbolt come into play

[unkempt moss]

The game is definitely in need of some sort of shake up.

[compact tundra]

Honestly I think the game is pretty close to being really well balanced with a few reworked and tweaks

[unkempt moss]

Embark needs to let me run "underground tour" where I try out all of my changes to the game.

Balance and exciting aren't the same though. A lot of people are bored with how it is right now.

[compact tundra]

Fuck i want to run a underground rebalance tourny, it's be so fun to do

[serene glade]

Buff the servers and melee becomes better tbh. But that's not happening

[unkempt moss]

Biggest buff the game could receive. Playing the current LTM and seeing my shots zigzag through the air was an eye opening experience.

[compact tundra]

These are my balance change ideas all placed in one manifesto
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vwapmPGxJ03NcFzN4qXryyR2CsW4AB6dnz5VBJMVIrI/edit?usp=drivesdk

[unkempt moss]

What are the top 3 changes you would want to see from this

[compact tundra]

From my thing?

[unkempt moss]

Yeah.

[compact tundra]

Winch, mesh, and melee weapons

Tho the melee's aren't done yet

[compact tundra]

Oh I agree but honestly that mostly will help spear more than anything

[serene glade]

Ive had lights dash through dual blade swings, sledge right clicks whiff completely on someone right in front me. I feel like I'm gambling most the time depending on server, but I'm addicted to the casino so it's fine

[unkempt moss]

• Fire change is good. I feel the same way.
• gas 25% is high for DPS, but its not a bad idea.
  Biggest change I'd make to smoke and gas is they plume continuously so they can move with platforms or destroyed floors.
• mesh shield i dont think is bad, they'd definitely need to play around with the health. I think it retains some juggle and is strong.
• nerfing googun not good, but im biased.

If you reduce the googun capacity it limits heavies best mobility tool unfortunately. Having to reload before the stack will break would feel awful. At the very least, you'd need to keep it at 15.

[compact tundra]

The gas number was just for simplicity to show off the change, I would never want it that high

I get the goo nerfs are crazy but I think if the other specs are brought in line people will see just how strong goo gun is. It's crazy good with high skill and hard counters winch and just overall is a PVP monster in good hands. I get goo isn't utilized well by many people rn but I think the longer the game goes in the more goo gods we'll see

[unkempt moss]

Oh i think its currently the best spec. Even with how much people hate winch. The nerfs will make that even more apparent.

[compact tundra]

Honestly with that change we could play around with goo having a longer life span but I get it's super harsh for the least picked spec rn

[unkempt moss]

It also definitely comes off as someone who's a melee player which made me laugh.

[compact tundra]

Goos in a weird spot where it's by far the best item In the game, but only if used at its full potential which is so difficult it might as well not be considered for balance

[compact tundra]

Yea that's fair

[unkempt moss]

It had an air of someone who's been goolocked and deleted one too many times.

But thats one of the many reasons I think its the best and its not close. One problem is I think nerfing one of the games most unique things runs in to that balance over fun part.

I think the fire destruction buff to goo was good, and the health nerf was fine. Where are you seeing goo being abused the most?

[compact tundra]

Actually weirdly enough I haven't. I wrote the goo gun rework based off of snails opinions since he's a dual blade main that got goo locked a lot. I've actually played goo gun since open beta and I love that damn gadget, it's literally infinite goo and is the funniest thing in the game

[unkempt moss]

Got it. I think if we lose fun googun the game is lost. It's the last bastion of pre-esports finals.

Theyve taken almost all the fun stuff out of the game. Kick flipping cash outs, gooFO and the other movement tech with Goo. They killed sword for a lot of people. I skipped season 8 and am just grinding the battlepass in these last four days because they just keep killing the soul of the game.

[compact tundra]

I kinda agree and disagree, i think we can try to keep the game balanced at a higher level while keeping the game fun in casual. It's just a hard bar to cross. I think goo gun could be reworked to keep the fun and be more balanced, my idea for that was the alt balance change for it but honestly that would be a tuff one

But removing goo planes and goo launchers was so stupid and I'd add it back in a heart beat if I could

[unkempt moss]

The problem is you can try and balance for all levels but balance will never be agreed upon by all levels. Your sword got nerfed because of low end players, not because it was dominating high end. Its very seldom we get a change that everyone agrees on. I dont think I have seen a game that has ever been able to bridge that gap.

[compact tundra]

I think TF2 is the closest we've seen but honestly your right, I just think we can get close

[unkempt moss]

If you had to choose, which would you pick. Fun and balanced for the 99.99% or serious and balanced for the ruby+ crowd?

[shell sonnet]

[insert comment on ubersaw]

[indigo nexus]

The choice in this hypothetical is obvious though it doesn’t seem to relate much to the state of the game. It is not a choice between one and the other and indeed embark did not choose between one or the other on that front.

[unkempt moss]

Im just asking to see what he values more of the two.

[compact tundra]

I think the 99% is more important but to me the competitive player base makes up a solid percentage of the player base, even if they aren't ruby. I for one play the game more competitively despite not playing ranked

[unkempt moss]

I almost exclusively play ranked but my load outs are unserious. There's like three versions of the game being played at all times in the standard format whether its world tour or ranked. I know Sausage is trying to trivialize what is being said but its not necessarily obvious at all.

[indigo nexus]

What makes a player “competitive” in your view?

[unkempt moss]

You have bronze to gold.5, gold.5 to diamond.5, and then diamond.5+. Each plays a vastly different game.

We intentionally drove ourselves down as far as possible and we're only able to get to like mid silver without just standing in the lobby not playing.

Things like MGL and Dual Blades are very effective down in the bottom tiers.

[compact tundra]

To me someone who plays the same mostly with the goal of getting better and mastering whatever niche they order or the game overall. To me it's players who find they're fun from the challenge rather than the goofy

[indigo nexus]

Hmm. From my experiences that would classify the great majority of players I’ve seen as competitive

[unkempt moss]

Whats your definition then?

[compact tundra]

I'd say it's a good portion but also our veiw is slanted since most casuals aren't joining the discord to discuss balance, they're busy running triple minigun in quick cash

[unkempt moss]

I think you can be competitive and still derive fun from goofy. When im playing goofy I want to win more than when I play normal stuff. The challenge itself is part of the fun of playing a terrible load out.

[indigo nexus]

I’m not sure if they’re great terms to use to begin with. But for convenience I sometimes just use “competitive” refer to diamond/ruby when talking about balance issues

[compact tundra]

Thats what I do but I still consider myself a competitive player, the fun if bad weapons is making meta players heads spin

[compact tundra]

My Cerb for example

[unkempt moss]

What terms would you use?

[indigo nexus]

I usually just outline “elo” groups as relevant. But I don’t really consider player motivations as they’re not relevant to most conversations and mostly following the same tune.

[unkempt moss]

What would you use the elo groups for in a conversation? Like what would you be talking about for that to come up?

[indigo nexus]

Well I might say that a certain weapon is disproportionately ineffective in higher elo play for example

Vague but anyone who reads it probably gets the picture well enough

[unkempt moss]

Right. As an example, im assuming you remember when the model was the huge boogeyman of the discord since youre green. Do you think they handled it well?

[indigo nexus]

Well I would not make any confident assertions on the topic. But I thought that that statistical nerf which ‘killed’ the weapon was not great in combination with the quick melee combo nerf, as one on its own would have sufficed

I think virtually everyone agreed that that went too far and even after like four buffs it isn’t considered good

[unkempt moss]

I agree with that

[indigo nexus]

Curiously at the time a lot of players seemed happy with the change because the gun “deserved” it, which is something I don’t relate to

[unkempt moss]

I think that's a lot of the problem with them listening to the discord actually. When something is strong for too long and people get the "fatigue" they go on like a vengeance arc about the thing. And then we get entire seasons where things like the mesh and model are not worth playing. And I think thats what's going to happen to the winch if im honest.

Its going to get smoked by the mesh shield now, which on top of the multiple nerfs its received already will make it a tough buy for a lot of people.

And then we're back where we started with meshSA being the play. So we've had this round of nerfs making everything weaker and less fun, only yo end up where we were. At least that's how I feel it will go.

[indigo nexus]

I honestly could not tell you how that will play out.

The change isn’t drastic enough that I expect it will kill the spec, it’s popular at most skill levels, and mesh shield is likewise quite underrepresented right now

[unkempt moss]

Do you have a strong opinion on anything?

[indigo nexus]

When I am sure about something then yes

[unkempt moss]

How about an example.

[indigo nexus]

balance is tricky because we’re talking from fairly naive viewpoints

[unkempt moss]

Thats why I don't really talk about balance.

I focus on making the experience more engaging

[indigo nexus]

er… any claim about something in the game that I can disprove I guess :p

[indigo nexus]

In my mind balance is maybe the biggest facet of this

And it’s fun to try and theorise about it, really.

Though it does irk me a bit when people angrily declare balance demands for something they only have half the picture of themselves

[compact tundra]

I'll tell you, it's this mother fucker trying to convince me throwing knives aren't thr most broken overpowered weapon in the game, he got passionate about that one. But I think it's cause my take is dog doo doo and solely based on my personal hate

[indigo nexus]

Well I guess that works too, a very bold claim that tries to challenge an established meta for which I have some faith in its accuracy, with an additional bonus of it being possible to argue over the magnitude of specific points

I don’t know how good throwing knives are “overall” (whatever that means), but I think there’s a strong observable case for them not being the best weapon, plus proponents of the idea have according to my memory been known to make some misleading claims about the weapon’s capability

[compact tundra]

Nu-uh

It is broken, it is potentially the best light weapon by a mile, and it has got to go. I hate throwing knives and they should be nuked and then reworked. I want them nuked first tho just so I have an excuse to eat popcorn and cheer

[unkempt moss]

I guess I'll just wait to see you make a claim of some sort of confidence. Right now you're just kind of agnostic and that's no fun

[compact tundra]

Me? Cause if so I could talk extensively on how I feel about throwing knives, but I'm too busy at work rn for that kind of extensive writing

[unkempt moss]

No other fella

[compact tundra]

Ah ok

[unkempt moss]

You posted a manifesto of your opinions earlier. Its definitely not you.

[compact tundra]

Fair

I haven't gotten to throwing Knives in there yet tho, might do that next if I break sequence

[unkempt moss]

I don't really think I have a weapon that I feel is overly strong right now. There's a few that are underpowered to the point of needing a strong patch.

For 9 I'd really like to see the MGL and Spear get some love.

[compact tundra]

Oh that would be fun. I just want the melee reworks to make sword have its full skill expression added back while keeping the ttk manageable and not oppressive to fight

[unkempt moss]

Have faith in the dual blade swap. It has to be coming. Embark has to listen to me at some point.

Then my dreams of the attack on titan larp will be realized.

[compact tundra]

But I like my grapple sword, tho heal beam sword would be so fun for me as a support sword

[unkempt moss]

How does grapple dual blade not sound more fun? Its crazy.

I will say, embark has used my suggestions before and didnt give me credit. But thats okay.

Some day they'll work in all of my suggestions.

[iron zenith]

SPEAR MENTIONEDDDDD

[unkempt moss]

Dont worry, I know all three of you spear users are out there. Ill always fight for heavy rights.

[muted veldt]

lol

lol

[compact tundra]

I think the FAMAS and 93r are but honestly they're not busted just a bit overtuned in my opinion. There are some more weapons I think need to be tuned a bit but those two are the only ones I think actually need a bit of a nerf

[karmic axle]

Nice hustle "Tons of Fun". Next time, eat a salad!!!

[unkempt moss]

Its so funny. My friend used the 93r way before the buffs and said it was really good but I never saw anyone using it so I had no idea. Then they buffed it and it was a wrap.

[compact tundra]

Wait before any buffs?

Cause back then it was a contender for the worst weapon in the game

[karmic axle]

Sawed off shotgun is better

[unkempt moss]

Yeah he loved it. He couldn't believe they were buffing it. And he used to rip people up with it. Its just funny the entirely different perspective people have with the game.

[compact tundra]

That's wild, that gun was trash from what I know and the like 2 times I tried it

[unkempt moss]

Hes also the same person that somehow makes the spear work.

[hardy dust]

93r used to be a direct downgrade of famas in every single way except reload time

It was absolutely one of the worst weapons in the game

[unkempt moss]

Sorry, I thought it was clear with the last part that I was speaking on the subjectivity of peoples experience with the game. I wont speak anymore.

[hardy dust]

I wasn't trying to disagree with you just adding to the point unjust made about it being a contender for the worst weapon in the game

93r used to be so shit 😭

[unkempt moss]

Dont come at me right now. Ive had too many light teammates tonight. My fuse is very short.

[polar cedar]

famas is not busted bro, it’s the most perfectly balanced weapon in the game

[stoic garden]

m11 is the most perfectly balanced weapon ☺️

[indigo nexus]

I wonder what the embark balance guy would say if you made him decide what the best balanced weapon was

[stoic garden]

obviously bfr titan (jk, they'd say m11)

[placid slate]

Mf let the p90 be a m11 clone for med, his opinion isn't public for a reason

[indigo nexus]

Do you think the P90 is problematic?

[mystic trellis]

Breach drill

[slow linden]

I do,he does,many do,there's a reason the fcar and the akm and to a certain extent the famas have gone completely unused,the p90 is just better,and is so problematic that it can out trade some heavy weapons

[indigo nexus]

Er, what? In what sense are those weapons unused?

[stoic garden]

what.

[indigo nexus]

P90 is the least viable of the four of them, and it does not trade out heavy.

[stoic garden]

i honestly think p90 is mostly dogshit and is best used as a noob weapon if u cant aim

nearly same ttks as akm with a third of the range got me tweaking

[slow linden]

I rarely see fcar anymore,famas is seen sure but much less than last season,and akm has just been getting nerfed and powercrept literally every season

[stoic garden]

yea medium has many weapons and p90 is possibly the easiest one to use, it's pretty fun honestly

[slow linden]

There should be no noob weapons,everything should be strong but have a learning curve,weapons that take zero effort to use and don't have hard counters are unbalanced no matter how shit you personally think they are

[stoic garden]

p90 hard counter is staying anywhere beyond 15 meters

almost like m11 😱

[indigo nexus]

My experience would gauge FCAR as the most popular, though it switches to famas if you’re much better than I am. AKM hasn’t been nerfed in almost 5 seasons, and this is curious as most people will say there’s been an opposite of power creep in this game, though I think it’s been pretty neutral in the last several seasons

[indigo nexus]

True but absolutely impossible

[slow linden]

I like the p90 in most other games,I use the p90 in a few other games,I don't like using it in this game,I don't like fighting it in this game

[slow linden]

Flamethrower is considered a noob weapon,and it's got way harsher counters than p90 as it should

On another topic Winch is a noob spec with ZERO counters

[stoic garden]

wants winch dead award

I'm so ready to use mesh next season.. if my game returns to at least 50 fps

[indigo nexus]

Nah, it’s the opposite, it’s least effective for worse players

I think charge and slam would fit that description best

[stoic garden]

it's semi easy to hit and has nearly no counters in its effective range, almost always results in a kill

[slow linden]

P90 has harsh falloff,yes,but it has nearly no recoil or spread,when I was using it I was picking people off and keeping them from regenerating from up to 40 meters away with it,and if I couldn't pick them off I would push the wounded and obliterate them

Its fucking gross

[stoic garden]

careful how you speak or they'll make recoil worse than lewis

[slow linden]

Good

[stoic garden]

rename yourself to KILL p90 or I'm never taking you seriously 🙄

[indigo nexus]

Kinda, but charge and slam / mesh shield / goo gun are all easier to hit, less range sensitive and less punishing. Winch does not almost always result in a kill when worse players use it

[slow linden]

Lewis is honestly fun now,might need a small damage buff,but I actually like that a world War 1 weapon has a funky recoil pattern

[stoic garden]

i dont understand why people want to give it more damage, almost same ttks as m60 but a good bit more range, what am i missing

even appoh says it needs damage

[indigo nexus]

I think it’s actually the only hitscan gun in the game to have spread while aiming down sights, it does actually make a notable difference at range. You can keep someone from regenerating with almost any gun with no issue.

[kindred arrow]

if any gun cant secure a kill on someone already wounded, that gun is utterly worthless

[slow linden]

It's a sidegrade to shak,the recoil pattern needs to be more worth learning,I'm stubborn so that's why I use it

[stoic garden]

i personally used lewis a good bit and it feels balanced as much as m60, if feels like akm vs fcar type deal

[kindred arrow]

maybe when discussing a weapon's power level we should start at the situation where you are not already presumed to win the fight

"i can win when i already have a 50% advantage in a situation where people are mechanically meant to be unable to win without a massive skill gap" ok

[slow linden]

You say that but the m11's spread is so horrendous that sometimes you cannot do that with it and it should honestly stay that way

[stoic garden]

carnifex disagrees

[kindred arrow]

landing a single bullet should still not be an issue

[stoic garden]

i think in his case of actual mastery of the weapon it should be ok to hit many shots from a distance yes?

it deals 8 damage at max falloff anyway

[slow linden]

The m11 is the most balanced gun in the game,the p90,a weapon with nearly identical,slightly blurred stats being on a class with double the health is very problematic

[kindred arrow]

i mean theres 3 blurred use cases you're discussing here

[stoic garden]

censoring shak50

[kindred arrow]

1: stopping regen, which any gun can do easily
2: closing to kill someone who is half or less, which any gun should be able to do easily
3: finishing someone half or less at range, which p90 should be more capable than m11 because medium is a midrange class even for closer ranged weapons

[indigo nexus]

It has quite substantially lower DPS and a notably slower reload

[slow linden]

I mean the stats are pretty much the same just move the dials up and down here and there

[stoic garden]

around 1.8x longer reload iirc

[plucky spade]

P90 op.

Weapons-gadgets never change

#💣┇weapons-gadgets

[slow linden]

One can call it balanced on paper but I still think an smg on medium was a terrible idea that I never should have supported, it's not fun,plane and simple,and if they don't nerf it correctly it will just be awkward,I don't want anything gutted except winch,every weapon that was even remotely problematic they've killed and I just don't want that to happen anymore

[stoic garden]

oh btw i hate p90 because it means akm will never get 36 ammo again

[kindred arrow]

yeah, losing 1/8th of damage a shot and 1/10th of rpm in exchange for a slightly less bad falloff modifier (really just evens out dps) on a close range smg is totally worth it

slight damage per mag is evened out by horrendous reload

[slow linden]

True

[kindred arrow]

if weapons were not class locked i would probably never use the p90

[kindred arrow]

akm is such a pointless weapon

[stoic garden]

maybe

[slow linden]

Medium is a support class,the reload is covered by your teammates,or I dunno,something that everyone uses like cover? Reloading in the middle of an open fight no matter what weapon is dangerous,and it should always be dangerous

[kind stag]

thats like comparing light sword with medium riot shield or dual blades, they can both block bullets and 100 more hp, but the advantage of light sword is movement and speed

[kindred arrow]

needing to spend twice as long behind cover means spending less time supporting your teammates in the fight

[slow linden]

Slowly Slowly gutted and powercrept to complete irrelevance

[stoic garden]

gutted once

[kindred arrow]

also, yeah, p90 is inherently weaker than m11 even if stats were identical because its a 10m range weapon on a class that cannot fly around the map by pressing q

[wicked grove]

https://tenor.com/view/broken-heart-gif-12982960240308275363

[stoic garden]

cover that may not always be available due to range constraints in (frankly uncommon) situations

[kindred arrow]

i would say the ARN is a case of this applied to a rifle instead of an smg, but the ARN's recoil being so ridiculously nonexistent is a huge mechanical advantage at longer ranges