suggestion-discussion

[hazy loom]

ill post a video here

[cosmic narwhal]

Me neither, we're way past that at this point.
Now the topic is about something (relatively) a lot more interesting.
Though, definitively not one suited for this lobby (server? i still don't know what to call it)

[hazy loom]

if u want to see that is

[meager jasper]

Quite. To put things back on track, do you have any ideas/suggestions regarding what you would put in for points of interest in the map?

[cosmic narwhal]

Well, i've already mentioned my original thought before (about the whole fog revelation and everything), but to be honest, there could be so many other types of poins of interest.
Simply thinking of an objective or desire a player could want and make a point of interest that grants him such desire.

Could come in many varieties.

• Want to kill someone? Maybe some kind of Wanted poster, where, once interacted, will mark a player and show the general direction of where he is in the map. Upon successfully killing the player, he`ll have a bounty in him (ocupying a small slot in the dead player's inventory) that can be gathered and sold for gold. The stronger the gearscore of the player, the better the rarer the bounty.

• Want to make the round last longer? Maybe some time of Ritual Skull, where, once interacted, will summon a small mob. If the mob is killed, the Ritual skull can be activated to "pause" the game timer for a short while.

• Want to find good loot? Maybe there`s a trasure map of some sorts, that makes a random chest on the other side of the map turn golden. (It can only be opened by the one who was the treasure map in his inventory or something). Once opened, it grants the normal rewards of a golden chest, without the struggle of fighting a boss or something, but with a grander risk of players camping such a chjest if found.

I believe the healthiest way to create points or things of interest to the players is to simply think (what do players want to do?) and create something that aids them towards it.

[icy knot]

You can post the video directly to a class discussion channel.

[hazy loom]

ill post in rouge since im playing rouge rn

[cosmic narwhal]

welp, that took a while to write, though i believe i got my ideas across.
Any insights on your part, @meager jasper ?

[meager jasper]

Mmm. the first one feels like it might be vaguely abuse-laden if it took the wrong form, and besides that is a little... gamey? The others are more interesting to me. The middle one is more interesting to me but I'd possibly want more reward to it. The principle of the third one is alright, but I'd want it to be a bit more dramatic than a chest. Give me a vault room or something. Maybe it could be a hidden room that spawns randomly off the side of the map and searching for it without the map is extremely slow?.

[granite knot]

I sank 100k just to get an emote, which is actually amazing

[cosmic narwhal]

I mean, yeah..the first one'd kinda gamey....cause it's a game...? I just think an easierway to find players is warranted.

The second one i just thought about, so i couldn't elaborate a lot.

i like the idea of the hidden treasure vault in the edges of the map, but i'd preffer that the way to open it is through a secret pressure plate in the wall, a pressure plate that is highlighted if you have the treasure map.

Ther`s also the one i mentioned before, a magic ink/pen that would allow you to draw on the map, clearing up the Fog of War and possibly revealing interest points for you.
That one i find personally interesting.

[hollow estuary]

i like the wanted poster, basically give me anything that makes finding players easier, because right now, the game is the most dead it's ever been in terms of pvp atleast in solos

[cosmic narwhal]

exactly
Also i think there is a very interesting statue that could be made: the shadow statue, in which grants a buff where, once within a dark enough area, you become one with the shadow, essentially invisible while within it, unless a light source is shed upon it.

This could also be just a Rogue perk or ability, but eh...

[hollow estuary]

maybe hide mastery gets replaced with this

[proud sigil]

Remove true damage and +all

[fleet pagoda]

I posted this on reddit yesterday and figured I'd just post the whole thing here as I had shared a link to the short version of the suggestion earlier

Dear Ironmace..

The circle should not exist in your game. You have plenty of other options to use other than a circle. Since the game is based on modules, make the closing of a map module based.

For example;

Crypts.

You hear a soft cry, slowly growing louder. You proceed to a door and the cry grows louder. You open it and it's a Banshee. You instinctively close the door, but it's too late. The banshee shrieks and all of the lighting in the room goes dark. From this point you have about 15 seconds to find a door that doesn't have a banshee and you escape the room (or die.) If you survived, you can throw a torch into the darkest room and you can see the banshees slowly floating your way, crying, into the next room.

When you're at the final module, the banshees gather around the room and converge into some sort of super boss, and you either fight it to escape / loot or die.

(From this point it's short and sweet examples, use your damn imagination.)

Ruins.

The Spectral Knight's army arises and a wave of ritualistic hooded skeletons with Spectral Torches begin sprawling through the modules, slowly approaching you until you escape / take red.

Inferno.

You hear a soft cackle, and its Imps. The Imps laugh behind doors waiting for adventurers to dare open it. If they do, they are burned for 50% HP every couple of seconds.

These are just examples of what should be done rather than a simple "ahhh swarm ahhh it's the circle"

Take this as you will, but please.. this game needs more sophisticated forms of module based rounding-up the players rather than just the "10 year old me is scared of circle of death" thing.

Edit: made a short, official suggestion on the Dark & Darker suggestion feed. Here is the link;
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/624217/modulebased-circles

[meager jasper]

The game doesn't need modules becoming blocked off at all. I think people are just trying to barter after IM have made objectively the wrong decision.

[jolly leaf]

Well, unfortunately I don't think SDF is going to remove it again, and some people seems to actually like this, they're happy with that because I guess they're shortsighted and don't see what the game could be with mechanic like we speak of earlier. So at least I would prefer what he suggested. It seems more interesting than a dumb closing circle

That doesn't mean we shouldn't fight to see the Swarm removed but those suggestion can't hurt

[meager jasper]

I disagree. I think people are tired and willing to pretend it's okay, but realistically, the majority of people are just going to stop playing HR, because they're not as engaged as the people who are going to beg for a compromise.

SDF will budge back again in a few months. Again. Hell he might swing back again to the same decision even after that, because if there's one thing we've learned is that these people do not learn lessons.

There's only so much you can ignore what you're doing to your population.

[jolly leaf]

Well I thought so too but, a lot of people seem to defend the Swarm and I've seen a poll on Ryan6day channel with over 5k vote and it was a 50/50 on should we keep it or not. That plus the fact they've stated that their goal wasn't to push people to play HR anymore, that it wasn't for everyone. I don't know SDF might stick to it

[slow arch]

bring back n hop

[granite knot]

Who's going to buy the DLC when HR is desolate with no people in the lobby?

[meager jasper]

A full 50% of people of people willing to vote, who are invested enough to watch a channel devoted to DaD is... in no way representative. And even if it was, that is not a good number. That's not exactly a supermajority of even sweats who are okay with it.

Consider that the most likely people to hate this change are the people who will never talk or engage with anyone else in the DaD community.

[jolly leaf]

Totally agree it's not a majority at all, but it's not a tiny minority too. I don't know if we can ignore them. But I think you'r right and that we shouldn't try to please those side of the community, there is better way to make the game more properly hardcore with real reason to PvP (and PvE) not just being forced to by the Swarm

[icy knot]

What are you guys even discussing?
This is What SDF said:

`In our quest to make the game more accessible we feel we have made good progress with the current Normal game modes. However, we also feel that we have lost a lot of the hardcore edge we originally intended. In the past we had pursued the strategy of pushing the High-roller mode as the definitive end goal for ALL players and tried to press players into that mode by retaining a high level of consistency between the Normal and HR modes. Recently, our thinking has changed and we now look at the High-Roller experience as a uniquely separate experience from the Normal mode.

Our goal for High-rollers is no longer broad appeal or high participation, but a return to a true hardcore playground that serves as a high-end test for only the strongest willed players and parties. We believe that the original versions of DaD with the dark swarm circles and random portals are more aligned with this vision, and we will be testing the return of that system for the HR dungeons.

Please understand that there will be growing pains as we tune this system to properly work along with the new random dungeons and continuous matchmaking system. We will also need time to better adjust the rewards for surviving the much more brutal HR dungeons. Unfortunately, our internal capacity has limits in finding the correct balance for the new HR dungeons, and our goal is to fine-tune this system along with the hardcore community so we can properly release a “Return to the Hardcore Dungeons” by the start of the next season.`

The majority of the player base did not play HR even though the mode was easy. He will make it harder, adjust circle and gather data about it next season.

He will not trust the opinions of some players or check the number of upvotes under the "remove circle" suggestion, as the majority of players who vote for it haven't even played it in the first place. He will only trust the data, and that's the smartest thing to do.

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[icy knot]

❤️

I hope Free 2 Play players will have access to only 1 mode. PVE or Normals

[uneven loom]

make a lion-person class :>

[vast axle]

Fix gear scores. Equipping a full set of GREEN loot sends you into high roller. HR sucks. I hate it. There is literally no point in going into HR if you don't have 1000 hours, cuz you'll get rolled by other players or screwed by the circle. I make 10x profit looting in the 124 range, but the SECOND I equip a full set of greens I'm at like 160. Make it make sense

[stoic spruce]

Make the goblin tell you, you have missed out on your lost items retrieved from the dungeon after time is up, if not already implemented I'm not sure

[vast axle]

Nah, you check after the timer is up and he's just grinning at you with a fat lot of nothing recovered

[winter idol]

I would argue with that.

1. The past shows that IMs vision for the game is not set in stone. There is a real Chance to make them change there mind again.

Arguing with his vision in mind tho:

2. He did not say "we clearly want the circle". He said " We believe that the original versions of DaD with the dark swarm circles and random portals are more aligned with this vision, and we will be testing the return of that system for the HR dungeons.". In this channel we argued, that the circle is not really in line with his vision and what could be better ways to reach it.

3. He clearly said that he doesn't care about player numbers in hr, but about the hardcore player base. So low numbers won't change his mind, but maybe the voices of those who he likes to aim this mode at will do.

[vast axle]

I personally find it amusing that they said in the notes "our goal is no longer high HR participation" and then force you into HR at the earliest opportunity. Seems like they don't really know what they want out of HR except that they want it to be hard

[winter idol]

How do they force you to play hr?

Infact there where polls showing that around 50% of the players don't play hr.

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[vast axle]

I think they don't play because they don't want to lose gear. I just equipped a full set of green gear on warlock. Falchion and crystal ball, no secondary, green rings and a green necklace. My gear score is at 141

That's how they force you into HR. Gear scores make no sense at the moment if they aren't trying to force HR participation

[winter idol]

Well yes and no. The gear score is not to force you to play hr, but to create lobbies with somewhat comparable statadvantages on players. Your argument is valid tho. If they want people to enjoy staying in norms, they definitly need to open higher gs brackets for norms, so that you can actually play the gear you earned. This will most likely happen with the start of the new season. That we don't have it right now is probably rooted only in IMs inability to think things through before they release something. I would not say it's bad intention tho. Just wait a few patches. There change of vision for hr is literally just one patch old and historically it takes IM much longer to make something work as intended.

[vast axle]

I'm nothing if not patient. Grinding out the religion skin rn in squire sets until I can use my juice

Just frustrating to have to tailor gear sets to avoid HR really. Lemme use my purple stuff dang it, it's pretty

[languid thorn]

ADD MORE WEAPONS

Pole Axe (with hammer side and spike tip) - Pole Hammer (With Spike side and spike tip) - part1san spear - Billhook

One Hand Axe - HEAVY one hand AXE (with hammer side and spike tip)

Executioner - Great Sword - Estoc - Falx
B.stard Sword - Scimitar - Messer - Short One Hand Spear
Eveningstar

Kite Shield
Targe Shield
Allow short sword to be used in main hand

REMOVE WEAPONS MASTERY

• Allow all physical weapons by default

• Slayer should give access to Recurve Bow

• Ban all daggers, all magical weapons, all bows and windlass

REWORK THE FKING FLANGED MACE ANIMATION

Remove True DMG - True DMG will never be balanced, since the faster the weapons or depending on scaling it is always broken. Adding on top that there is SOO much armor penetration in the game at the moment. True DMG ruins the balance.

Remove +ALL from the game. Having 1 single stat that give you EVERYTHING is not balanced. Renders any other trinket without +ALL useless.
Remove +ALL from ability. Same argument. PPL just stack plus all on everything.

VICTORY STRIKE REWORK:
Victory strike should be 15% phys power +15% armor pen for 8 seconds, if you get a kill it grants 25% heal on kill once

[icy knot]

The most unfair in HR is PVP. Fighting with players with way more experience and unbalace of classes.

[meager jasper]

The thing is, making a mode superficially more annoying to deal with isn't 'making it harder'. Removing all ability to reliably make profit in a mode through removing any insurance safeguards is not 'hardcore'. That just makes even more people not want to play it, and that includes the sweatiest among us.

I understand SDFs goals and he has no idea how to achieve them other than retreading ground that objectively made the game feel worse.

[languid thorn]

what you don t like sorc being able to run and hit you with AOE speels for 1 tick of dmg for 25% hp????????

[meager jasper]

HR participation is vital to its survival as a mode. Vital to its difficulty because an influx of players wearing good gear they can easily get is how you challenge people there. You can't just say "Oh I want to push out even more of the playerbase from it" and expect that to make it a better mode.

SDF has been getting told from day one that the way he should be increasing participation is to make the rewards more engaging, and yet every season what do we see? AP rewards that open within weeks of the end of the season. Do you see how utterly stupid that is?

The point of the AP system is engagement and yet they simply don't tell people what is up for grabs until it's far too late and people have already done with the game for a season

[languid thorn]

nah bro, this game is Competitive pvp high ranks, whaty ou wanted to pvp pve quest loot and craft?
NOOOOOOOO
we go in Call of duty dungeon ops

[meager jasper]

I'm not even convinced that's really what these people want. I think it's just a smokescreen so they can made the lobbies dead then kill the bosses in peace lol.

[languid thorn]

cater to 1% lose the other 50%+ opf players, players go back each wipe to tarkov not for PVP only
but for
questing
loot
pvp
pve
all combined, having 5 times more loot
quests give unlocks and not 2 useless items this helps you in having greater stuff to buy from traders and be properly used

[meager jasper]

Yes, right now questing unlocks crafting but that crafting is also locked behind bosses rather than general play. Which effectively means you have to be an end-game, skilled player to even interact with that system.

[languid thorn]

each player can play to their own desire,
wanna pve only afk loot? SURE buddy
wanna focus pvp? sure buddy hot spot high tier loot zones
wanna focus questing sure we gotch you

[meager jasper]

They seriously need to start taking notes from Marauders or something. Every main quest in that game either unlocks a new, vital piece of gear crafting, like shit that can be used to open vaults, unlocks a cosmetic for the season (which reset) or some actually craftable within a run piece of gear or a gun.

[languid thorn]

while i finish quests if i grind in a week to reach the max traders + fence rep + lvl 45 in 2 weeks normal players NEVER NEVER do that they take 2 months plus to even get above 30

[meager jasper]

The current rewards are paltry and the game is only afloat because the core loop is so fun. The core combat is so fun. But they have no idea what they're doing in terms of reward structures.

[languid thorn]

i never played that, but imo inspiring from tarkov is just that they have to hard focuse pve questing, loot experience, is too much looting the same 5 items that are worth something or the 5 gems

[meager jasper]

Gems were a great addition, but where's the specificity? If I want a gem, why is there not somewhere I would go to seek them out?

[languid thorn]

imo gems should be reworked again
make them like attachments

make them like attachments
free to replace at any time if the item was BROUGHT in raid
you can gain gems by dismantling items
found items in raid cannot be changing gems until you exit

gems can be attached up to the same tier of item for free
so an epic can get green gem
make gem, rarity base stats

[meager jasper]

It's funny. The eyes of statues used to spawn with gems in them. And they actually removed that, despite it being a great idea. It's like they think the value of gems in their game being high is more important than the actual reward loop. It's an imaginary number, it doesn't mean anything.

[languid thorn]

here is why i truly think the game is a problem
50%+ in 024 is bad
why?
well in tarkov players still que despire losing shit
why?
cause in tarkov it take 2 runs togain SOO MUCH MONEY you can buy the best gear sets you can
here to do that you either get super lucky - unlikely
or you have to farm countless runs
it takes too much time to have gucci gear
while it taks too much time to also even have ok gear

in tarkov ok gear is literally the smae value as a bad run

[meager jasper]

Exactly. The devs are insistant that they want things to be scarce, it's the reason they tried to nerf loot in patch 69, despite veryone telling them the increased loot is what made the game feel playable.
Things do not need to be scarce in the long term, at all. They need to be difficult to get in an individual match.

[languid thorn]

you know in tarkov loot is a problem too, the most fun tarkov was when there was shit to farm everywhere
timmis could have cash
chads could fight non stop in high tier loot areas
it was FUN

[meager jasper]

A big part of the problem is that specificity I mentioned. There's so many loot objects in the game that contain literally nothing of value. How many skeletons on the ground do you open, like someone mentioned earlier? I don't even check them. I don't even check anything less than lion-heads unless I'm just trying to fill my inventory in the last moments of a match.

[languid thorn]

yup

[meager jasper]

And that comes from not having specific areas to seek specific weapons, specific gear, or specific resources/gems.

Lets say my gem pile is getting empty. There should be a module somewhere that's got a very high gem drop chance.

All the ore that's in the game: currently locked behind bosses despite bosses having their own rewards and piles. Why?

[languid thorn]

imo items loot is bad
it should be
materials based
and making craftin or buying from traders worth
crafting cots too much
you cna t either buy enough gear too XD

also, farming bosses here is soo lame, in tarkov you have at least some proper quests and reason to do it,
you get a skin
you get a cool weapon purchase unlock
you get gear buy unlock armors etc

and don t get me started on the CRATES

OHHHH THE CRATES
Weapon crate
armor crate
money crate
that actually HOLD stuff
not 5 things and is full like out gold chest

[meager jasper]

It's funny with the gems as well, because they added coffers, but they spawn terrible loot even in HR, like they're intentionally making the gem drops in them pathetic.

It would be easy as hell to make a vault module filled with high-rate drop coffers and make it require some sort of craftable key to even get in.

[languid thorn]

nah bro keys in this game are the true gold chest value holders

[meager jasper]

The ability to actually use golden keys this wipe was great. I hope they retain their low value next season.

IM shouldn't tolerate this kind of key economy like how it was before. Keys are utilities and the less people use them the less people are engaging with the basic rewards of the game.

And there's no world in which a 15k gold key ever returns its value.

[languid thorn]

nah bro, i farm keys all the time, a key every 15 min
just git gud
XD

[meager jasper]

It wouldn't be a thing too if the drop rates weren't obscenely low.

[languid thorn]

yeah at least if they were findable you would use them and not be mad that it cost you 50k for a key and got jack sh1et out of it

[meager jasper]

In marauders, you can pick up cutter torches for vaults in map in specific areas you might find such a tool or make them yourself after you've unlocked the craftable. In this game, your best chance is farming bosses over and over for a tiny chance of getting one.

The only non-boss, the champions, literally take hundreds if not thousands of pulls to get one from them. That's so dumb, for what only unlocks a randomized pile.

I've played for hundreds of hours this season, I've been very involved this time around. I have not pulled a single key from a champion, and I kill them whenever I come across them.

[languid thorn]

ah there s that word again
unlocked tools / crafts
naaahhh
bro,
here 2 legendary items value 200g

[meager jasper]

Imagine we had accessible gold again. Then we had a key-forging module-in map. In order to make a golden key, you have to bring in a bar of gold or something. Bam. Two new types of points of interests to maps, a way better key economy. People would fight over these areas too, so more pvp engagement. People would run maps specifically to engage with these goals.

Make the gold spawn in all difficulties but the key-forge only HR or something, and at least a layer down, like in crypts. Maybe hell.

Keys would be everywhere. They would have a high, but relatively fixed value compared to gold. You could interact with keys in so many more ways, killing people for their gold/keys to get one yourself and rush pulling a gold door in the same map.

@keen onyx this is how you increase pvp engagement and hardcore play in HR, not the dark swarm. Rewards that aren't random. Points of interest.

[languid thorn]

bro,
C
I
R
C
L
E
We are here to do a battle royal, no ?

[meager jasper]

It's frustrating seeing them make the same mistakes over and over again. Nobody would call the condition of Marauders' sweaty lobbies anything other than hardcore, and yet even they don't have a BR circle. The only other game that does that I can even think of was starsiege, which has since stopped being a pvpve entirely. It's not a good mechanic.

[icy knot]

What if HR was like Arena for a few days? What I mean by that. Devs could make an event where players could join HR games and not lose any minted gear.

[true sand]

Is there an administrator who can help me solve my account problem

[languid thorn]

labs in tarkov is not available for a few days is always but it has a cost

[meager jasper]

I don't want there to be no risk.

Insurance systems are important, but if you lose your gear to another player you should lose the gear.

I'd rather they were much softer than such a sloppy change. Like putting the expressman back into the map at a random location.

The goblin, obviously should be re-added. Having that crutch for pve is important when the pve in this game is entirely based around learning movesets and countering them, and if you don't have that knowledge, you simply die.

[languid thorn]

i have an idea for express man
make it so you do not actually leave the server once inside
you can go in like a special room safe from end map damage
place your shit
and walk in the red door again lower
you cannot walk back out

[meager jasper]

That's how it was before. I'd be fine with a return to that, but I actually think it would be more interesting if he was an objective on the map where you could dump a load of loot.

[languid thorn]

so is the same thing as we had before, but is a CHOICE when you leave the current server,
before it was a special server

[icy knot]

It could be just an event for at least a week. It would invite so many players into HR

[meager jasper]

The maps themselves desperately need more stuff imo

[languid thorn]

it would be camped and with fog of war is lame imo

[meager jasper]

? Respectfully, you're coming at this from the same place as sdf where he adds 'events' nobody wants in order to drive some sort of engagement for something in a completely false way that will end right away once it stops.

[icy knot]

I want this

[meager jasper]

You can't sidestep having to design a good game with a fomo event, and it's a waste of resources tbh.

Not once have I ever seen an 'event' these devs have released and enjoyed it. It's always some unwanted sweeping change. Like minted gear? You seriously think people apart from you would be interested in not being allowed to loot other players in HR and treating it like a second arena for a while?

That sounds like an absolute nightmare.

Heavily populated pvp-only server with no rewards. Amazing. Third parties any attempt to get a boss.

I don't even like the first arena lol. It's a dumb mode

[icy knot]

It's a great way to get good at the game. New players are scared of HR because they are bad at PVP. Such events could allow them to learn PVP in the dungeon without any gear fear.

[meager jasper]

New players are not afraid of HR because they are bad at PVP, they are afraid of it because there are literally not enough rewards to make the risk worth it.

And of course, because the mode tries to force PVP, with a terrible dark swarm system.

I am not bad at pvp, and I do not want to engage with HR right now outside of quickly farming the AP for end of season. Because, again, it's just not worth it. Kits cost 10k and runs get a couple of k and are very likely to force you to meet resistance at some point. And the only real rewards in HR other than bosses are other players. So if you don't know the boss and you're not confident in killing a kitted whatever... why would you go there?

[icy knot]

Well I don't know like you but I was afraid of PVP in gear for a long time, and I still am a bit.

[meager jasper]

Normal Hell, for instance. Is relatively dangerous. It's not HR Hell obviously, but it's easily as hard or harder and has the same rough loot as HR crypts. It's got piles, etc. People go there in norms, despite it being roughly in the same difficulty category or worse. Difficulty, once again, is not the issue. Reward is.

[meager jasper]

Your request for this event shows the real reason you're afraid: gear fear. Not pvp fear.

Imagine you could replace your kit in one good run.

And to be clear a good run without killing another player.

False scarcity is 80% of the problem with HR. People lose kits and go back to norms, that's the loop.

[icy knot]

Isn't gear fear almost the same as PVP fear in High Roller?

[meager jasper]

That's my point. This problem is fixed by addressing scarcity, but merely letting people get good for a week doesn't fix anything if you're going to revert to a dangerous system in a week. People don't need a course in fighting - they need a system that rewards them for playing it.

[vast axle]

I suck at PvP, an encounter with another player is almost a 100% chance of kit loss for me at the moment, so kinda, but I wouldn't care as much if I could get a full kit in a run where I don't see anyone else

[icy knot]

I know this doesn't solve HR issue but I think game needs more events.

[meager jasper]

Eh. I don't necessarily oppose that in principle. I do think their efforts would be better focused on content for the dungeons right now though. When you compare DaD to other games it's quite empty.

TBH they've just burned a lot of my goodwill for anything they call an event. So I'm very lukewarm about the idea.

[jolly leaf]

Hey we always circle back to that -> https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/620767/improve-continuous-dungeon-instead-of-reimplementing-the-circle
This is the way, not the Swarm. Improved fog of war and random dungeon with point of interest to satisfied both PvP and PvE player. And make HR more hardcore through mob, boss, maybe some harder module only available in HR some point of interest you only found in HR, adjustement to those change to FoW to make it harder to navigate in the dungeon in HR. Not by totally remove the Goblin recovery and adding a swarm, that just add frustrating randomness

[reef cosmos]

for old players/veterans(playing since play test1) > https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/624371/full-kits-on-marketplace

[tacit otter]

I disagree with you here. I think newer players still haven’t mastered the mobs so that combined with PvP can make things scary. They are focused more on surviving and getting out than getting the big rewards.

[tacit otter]

But I do agree with you here. Once you realize that gear is so easily replaced HR just makes you a better player.

[meager jasper]

These are the same thing. One completely informs the other.

Their perception of things isn't actually relevant here, they wouldn't care about loss if gear was less scarce, objectively. There are other games that show that.

Beyond that, there's an inevitable feedback loop of not being able to even attempt HR, because of the gear brackets. I like the gear bracket system, I think it's good - but it does mean that people will lose kits repeatedly then just not be able to play in that bracket.

[icy knot]

Make event where classes can have 5 perks

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[jolly leaf]

Or 3 skill (3 skill would be so unbalanced xD)

[vale wadi]

The random modules and blacked out map are absolutely atrocious combined with the “discovery quests”
I must have played 200-300 games this wipe and never found ”long bridge” lol…
Probably the worst change ever. Not everybody just wants to pvp 24/7… even tarkov has grasped onto this fact. I used to really enjoy this game until you changed the map situation.

[jolly leaf]

I like this idea, small thing to make Fow and Random dungeon a bit more bearable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGzeLW7ifsU

[hollow estuary]

if you have to make somwthing "bearable" then its already failed and should be removed

was a single guy not content with pre fow maps?

[jolly leaf]

I can change to "Enjoyable" if you want, that's what I meant. I think FoW is a good feature it just need a few upgrade to reach is full potential

[jolly leaf]

How many hour do you have? For me the single, visible map caused some kind of redundancy in the gameplay, without new "in dungeon" content, such as new point of interest, new activities to do etc the game started to feel kinda dull for all those who weren't playing only for PvP. Every game start looking the same, rush boss or mid room to find PvP, each interesting module behing camped by PvP player. Random dungeon and Fog of war tend to revive a bit the Dungeon crawler aspect of the game

[winter idol]

Not to mention that spawnrushing is basically gone because of fow, which is a huge benefit to new players

[hollow estuary]

i got 300 hours

[jolly leaf]

Still in the learning phase xD

[hollow estuary]

definitely not

[winter idol]

The smartest idea I read sofar: the shrine in the loot room below a slain boss should upon activation reveal the location of the second boss. If both bosses are slain, the shrine should reveal the location of the loot room. Easy, smart and engaging fix imo.

[winter idol]

I've got a thousand hours and am still in the learning phase xD either your incredible talented or you're overestimating yourself xD

[jolly leaf]

Yes, I like that

[jolly leaf]

That's what I meant, even if you'r really good and already know everything you can know on the game, with "only" 300h you'r still enjoying thing, you'r still discovering thing. You're less inclined too see the redundancy in the game

[icy knot]

So bro just placed 2 bosses and loot room next to each other.

Buff or key to open loot room is must if they are separated.

Someone suggested before: Reveal loot room to the player and maybe also other boss room after killing one boss.

But doesn't having everything in one place makes only one point of interest on the map? More PVP over bosses?

[icy knot]

[slender parcel]

guys how do i migrate epic games it keep giving me failed to connect to the server

@waxen iron

[jolly leaf]

You're right, the suggestion you talked about is better

[meager jasper]

Random maps are great and I genuinely can't wait until they give frost caves the same treatment. My only issues with the core loop right now are the changes to HR, specifically. Dark swarm's bad and so is the loss of goblin there.

Furthermore I have also been saying maps should've always been random. Long before it happened. What else is the point in the module-based design?

Modules are otherwise literally an instance of bad design.

[naive current]

They should add to randomized dungeons by making all map edges wrap around to the other side. I hate having to check the map to see if I'm going to run up on a dead end.

And sometimes you spawn with this stupid circle on the opposite corner of the map from a boss and have 0 chance of engaging it when you finally find it.

[icy knot]

@full tulip
Wait... If the map will always reveal the 'golden key room' and there's always some chance to obtain a 'golden key,' the player that will drop one with the map is happy and has obejctive in the dungeon.

[naive current]

It also feels silly to have to check the completely empty map as soon as I spawn into a match to see which way the edge of the map is so I don't walk that way. I'm not supposed to know where I am, so why do I know not to walk south in the southmost module?

[winter idol]

I would like to start another discussion. One that I don't have an answer to but would like to hear your opinions and ideas.

We all know that true damage and +All is a hot topic. Most people want one or both gone. I too think true damage is bad for the game in the fact that it is heavily biased towards fast attacking weapons and there is no competitive equivalent for hard hitting weapons.

However
I kinda really like building true damage and +All. I'm not talking about that it's obviously good. It just gives me personal joy to find an item with +1 All or to run a full true damage set in a ssf run. It's the same like finding boots with movespeed or a chest with max health. I think there is a lot of benefit to be had in having one extremely high value roll on each item category. You instantly know that this item is good. You know what to look for on the market if you want to build budget, it also evens the field between bis gear and just decent gear, because if you habe those two rolls on a ring, everything else is basically a nice to have bonus.

So personally I don't want true damage to be gone. But there needs to be a solution that doesn't favors fast attacking builds.

What's your opinion on this?

[jolly leaf]

I think you have the good mindset on this topic. And like you said True damage is too strong espcecially for high attack speed build/weapon. Imo something worth trying would be to remove it and make Additional physical damage scale at (0.5) of your Phys power bonus. I always thought Add phys was more cool, it scale on Location (if you hit head or arm) and is affected by armor ,which make it not very worth right now. but if it scale to PPB it could be nicer. Class with bigger weapon tend to stack more Strengh, that would balance it a bit too

[meager jasper]

The way +all is right now is only economically problematic, not actually problematic in game terms. +3all isn't that much, and it as you say, it makes the jewellery slots important without allowing like +10all for all bits of gear.

True damage is a tricky one. Personally, I do think physical true damage should be removed. At the very least, I think that additional damage is less problematic. Magic damage is another thing entirely - If you play magic classes you know it's completely inviable to play mages unless you've got their true damage adds (though additional is now possible with builds targetting elemental weaknesses the point still stands). They'd need to completely overhaul spell scaling again in order to facilitate its removal, and that would mean redoing the baseline damage of every spell in the game.

Realistically I think the same is true of rogues too. Removing true outright ends them unless you give them a significant consolation buff. I don't know if it's worth the hassle.

[icy knot]

You know what would be funny if iron mace would make meme out of us in the dungeon. Bunch of skeletons praying into a wall.

[meager jasper]

I do however, personally, hate how strong the daggers are in this game.

The fact full-plated fighters are actively encouraged to use a rondel or a rapier is... well. It's not exactly battlefield accurate is it? It's silly.

Yet weapons like the halberd are pretty objectively bad. And halberds are absolute beasts irl. They can very easily dent plate to the point of the plate being a liability.

There is no world in which someone with a knife, unless they get the drop on a plate-wearing halberdier ever kills the man with the halberd.

And I think people crying about the 'one-hit' meta did this to these weapons. It's totally fine when a rogue kills you in less than a second on the clock as long as they took four swings, but being hit by halberd in the same amount time and it killing you? Totally unacceptable to people. It's ridiculous.

Personally I still think we should have even more health than we do. More health is better for the game, but the heavy weapons need serious love in terms of damage output.

[winter idol]

What if true damage would not be flat but based on your weapon/spell base damage like "+2% true physical damage)

[jolly leaf]

Oh, that's interesting. Would need a lot of testing tho

[meager jasper]

That would do disproportionately nothing for daggers though.

Rogues would go from the best scaling in the game to the worst in the game overnight.

I'd probably suggest something more in the middle: first of all, remove the frost amulet as it is from the game.

That's a huge reduction in the amount of true you can get right there. Second of all, make an amulet that adds significant percentage damage for physical weapons. This would then favor the big weapons and not favor the daggers. Make it so this roll counts as true damage, so if you want true damage +1 you literally have to not use this necklace.

[blazing stratus]

we already had exactly that... it was called "physical damage bonus" and it was not that useful

[icy knot]

I have never seen anyone complaining about this in other games

[meager jasper]

Yes, was going to say. That's a skill issue fam.

[naive current]

I'm not sure how to take that comment. Are you saying it's a non issue? I wouldn't say it's the most important thing in the world, but other games have visual queues (the contingent ends, and you can see that from a distance to know what you're getting into). In DnD, you're (mostly) blind to the next area and waste time opening doors unless you open the map right away.

[meager jasper]

Yes? The map is there to be used.

This is unironically just you complaining about your own lack of awareness of a mechanic that resolves your issue with one button press.

Whereas making the make fold on itself like that has real gameplay implications.

[slender parcel]

Guys please i need help.
I cant migrate from epic. It keeps giving me failed to connect. Quit the game

[naive current]

I am perfectly capable of opening the map... I'm saying it's weird to get directions from a map that's empty. I also think the gameplay would be more interesting with a wrap around.

[icy knot]

Man I had to personally check how FOW map look like and if there is indicator where you are on the map.

Map borders are the indicators where walls are and player has an arrow which direction he is now looking at. I heard woman are bad at navigation but come on..

[icy knot]

Wrap around could be interesting

[rustic glade]

I started playing Druid and confirmed what he said, no class can fight, if I make a mistake or I'm losing the fight I do the jump combo and flee across the map or with the rat I go through doors and heal myself, what a horrible class.

[naive current]

Everything I said had to do with wrapping the map. Minor inconveniences (like opening the map before I've filled any of it out instead of referring back to what I've already discovered later on) would be removed and more interesting gameplay would result. I wasn't saying I don't know where I am. Chill out, I'm sharing an opinion.

[rustic glade]

Everything is rosy, nobody wants to fight me HAHAH

[meager jasper]

Seriously guy go and touch grass. You only complain about druid. It lives rent-free in your head.

checks your messages
I mean that literally. First page, not a single message about anything other than how you hate druid and how you want it nerfed.

And all of it complete hyperbole that no one but you is swallowing.

You're a warlock. Panther druid is literally the counter to you. Deal with it and stop crying.

[hollow estuary]

i only bothered to learn cyclops and troll, and spent 90% of my time before patch 80 just doing pvp

[winter idol]

That's not even close to the same. True hast no damage drop-off, no sourspot, no limbdamage reduction and no armor reduction. Other than that: yeah it's basically the same. That's because a % damage increase technically benefits everyone equally. It's just that high attackspeed weapons in this game are so bad on there own, that without flat onhit damage they are useless. That's the only reason pdb
feels useless on rogues. That's also a major designflaw in the game imo causing classes
like rogue to feel real bad in
squire lobbies, where they don't have access to true. Fast weapons are literally designed
with flat True in mind, so ofc they would need a buff to compensate that

[blazing stratus]

I never said that true and %dmg are the same if youd read carefully. If someone suggests that "true" addsgets replaced with some %dmg.. which is just physical power...

[jolly leaf]

No? Because the %true would ignore the armor? It could be compared to Armor pen, but not Phys power. True damage also ignore where you hit, arm, head, chest etc

[winter idol]

If you would read carefully:
I suggested changing FLAT True damage to PERCENTUAL true damage. Which would still be true damage with all the benefits I listed but the damage calculation of pdb.

[meager jasper]

I would point out that technically we do have that with armor penetration. It just... doesn't scale well.

[winter idol]

Let's say instead of 1 true you would get 2% true.

With a 26 weapon damage rondel dagger you would basically get +0.52 true

While with a 63 weapon damage halberd you would basically get 1.26 true

Keeping in mind that you probably attack 3 times with a rondal for each attack of the halberd, this seems to be reasonable for each weapontype

[winter idol]

Armor penetration is something different. It is a roll that doesn't increase your damage, but reduces the resistance of the enemy. So if the emeny runs little armor, you essentially have a dead roll.

[meager jasper]

This isn't true though. Even a white-geared sorcerer will have more armor than you can even penetrate, because those penetration percentages are so low. Buuut. That's arguing semantics.

[jolly leaf]

That would solve the disparity between Slow and fast weapon/class. But True damage would still be too strong and absolutely needed even more important because now even Barb etc want to build it

[icy knot]

Lich purple circle deals 95% of player health. Why there is no more % health damage in the game?

[winter idol]

Good question. Especially for bosses

[winter idol]

Well yes. But like I said, I'm not against some strong rolls, it's like movespeed on boots or hp on chest, legs

[winter idol]

Maybe one could keep +All to jewelery and %true to cape, hands and hat, so every gearpiece would have some kind of main roll to look for

[jolly leaf]

I think that an issues with true damage is it's too strong but only if you can stack a decent amount. Is it still worth taking if you can only get 3-4 true max?

[regal trench]

introduce pig person skin, preferrably with pot belly and wild boar options. no other suggestions necessary the game would be perfect

[icy knot]

I would rather want +1 all on one weak item. How about having +1 all on tanky, slow items?

[meager jasper]

That's my thought as well. If you could only get a couple of points of it would be less of an issue.

I think they should consider removing the frost amulet specifically because of that. It's always extremely inflated in cost too, because it's strictly the best necklace in nearly all circumstances.

Also a thought: phoenix and frost amulet should both do something related to fire and ice damage now that we actually have a use for those damage types.

I also totally think c-sword should deal arcane damage.

At the very least I think our gear should interact with elemental resistances as well, and spreading out damage types and making them more complicated like that would be a reasonable surrogate for the effects of true damage.

[jolly leaf]

What I was trying to say is that stacking true is a issues because having a lot of it make it exponentially better. But would it still be an issues to stack it if it was nerfed or for exemple removed and replaced by an improved Additionnal phys/mag damage

[meager jasper]

Oh you misunderstand, I don't think it should be a damage add.

Unless it's exclusively to magic. Magic is mathematically built around that, and it's fine. But it shouldn't apply to weapons generally.

I'm saying a phoenix amulet that only buffs your fire magic, or something like that. Maybe fire and divine, vs frost and evil so all the casters get something. Maybe a third that gives something like earth and spirit or lightning and spirit.

Make builds more varied, and more interesting for the mages rather than "maximize true damage on every slot"

[jolly leaf]

I don't know how they could implement elemental stat. That would add too much stat if it's a random attribute. Maybe every Will/knowledge/Mag power piece should have a base random attribute (Like a white stat but random with Fire, Ice, Dark, Holy damage)

[meager jasper]

A thought occurs to me: If weapons had invidual damage types it would be easier to balance true damage

Piercing damage all being tied to bows and daggers and spears would inherently make it possible to make a necklace that's suited to it. Same for bludgeoning. You could have a better-scaling bludgeoning necklace specifically because bludgeoning weapons won't get silly with their damage adds

[winter idol]

I too think that Phoenix and especially frost amulet are the core problem. A unique frost gives 5 true alone out of a max of 9.

[meager jasper]

And armors can and should have specific elemental and physical damage type resistances.

[icy knot]

I would rather accept jewlery with +1 fire on base stats rather than it being on random roll

[meager jasper]

Broadly piercing and slashing does very little to real plate armor, unless it's a tailored weapon for the purpose like the pick-end of a warhammer or pole axe, which is representable by armor piercing.

Perhaps each armor should simply have an armor rating and not an MR rating, and instead each damage type gets a multiplier against that armor (like we currently have for physical damge, like a (1) or (0.75).) Like lightning would absolutely wreck plate and essentially go through it. Untyped magic damage should no longer exist. Any source of flat magic damage, like rogue poison or c-sword, should be typed into something like poison or arcane respectively.

[tacit otter]

How orcs should look, like in OD&D.

[meager jasper]

That way if you have armor piercing it disables all of that scaling.

[regal trench]

im thinking more bebop from tmnt

[shy tide]

Fix match making I want at least 2 players in my lobbies

[dark ember]

Ngl, i think clerics should get access to lantern shield

[rustic glade]

I've already stopped playing it, it's unplayable, obviously I want them to nerf the druid but now I hope it takes a little longer, I killed a rogue with a 10k kit without using my head, honestly why complain if guys like you guys come out to defend something indefensible, I'll just play it and take advantage of how stupidly broken it is.

[meager jasper]

All I'm hearing is reeing

[icy knot]

Nerf

[cinder orchid]

Also stopped playing, my only joy in this game was bossing despite the sh!t chance and sh!t rewards (I prefer to get 10k per troll pelt instead od 3k) also it is impossible to learn for a new player, and I am as masochistic as it gets (spent 180 attempts learning a boss the worst way possible)

[meager jasper]

He's talking about warlock

I can't wait to see what happens when he runs into a plated fighter or kitted barbarian with his little panther. And he learns that, in fact, the class also has its own counters.

[cinder orchid]

Nah buddy, try rogue on spectral knight on point blank range

[granite knot]

4 hits is all it takes to kill them, easy.

[meager jasper]

Ah it's the other one who cries about druid.

[granite knot]

I'm not the one trying to defend something that shouldn't be a thing at all.

[meager jasper]

The copium is real. There's literally nothing wrong with panther, except for the interaction between it and chicken. It's weaker than rogue in every conceivable way.

[icy knot]

What if @meager jasper is @keen onyx in disguise

[meager jasper]

Imagine actually thinking being hit four times by any weapon is too extreme.

[eager junco]

The focus should be retaining new and existing player base. The FOW and timed exits hinders new players from learning the game. FOW prevents existing players from achieving goals or tasks. The game should be more than just wonder around blindless. The vision of the game shouldn't be blinding the players base. @keen onyx

[meager jasper]

Oh please, this game would look nothing like it does if I was its lead dev. I do think the panther-chicken thing is ridiculous for example.

[granite knot]

Yeah, from your side. I actually played 45 agility druid. It's so numbingly easy I refused to play it after a day.

[meager jasper]

lol ok

Go and say that in the druid chat and you'll be laughed at. There's nothing easy about surviving as a panther. It's made of paper mache

[granite knot]

All it took was to press Q, E, W, RMB, LMB 3 times and bam, got a kill.

[meager jasper]

Amazing, he has a strong grasp of hyperbole.

[granite knot]

Amazing, he is still oblivious to the fact panther is easy to play.

[meager jasper]

Panther is balanced, and people like you crying about it doesn't change that.

The fact you keep playing classes that are partly or completely countered by it? That's a you issue. You don't see me crying about iw barbarians despite the fact I play sorcerer.

[granite knot]

It's not balanced, we already established that fact. 4 tapping PDR classes shouldn't be a thing at all.

Did I mention druids use insta shapeshift? They can just turn into a bear and 2 tap every class.

But yeah, I'm the delusional one, right?

[meager jasper]

No pdr class loses to a panther, don't lie. It takes serious misplays

Show me the footage. I'll wait.

[granite knot]

Oh no, druid messed up? Just go rat and run away.

[meager jasper]

Lol just rat. Okay. It's a shame you got achilles struck

[granite knot]

Shame barb missed because of the hitbox. Oh well...

[meager jasper]

It's a shame you got poisoned. It's a shame you got cursed. It's a shame you're burning. It's a shame the pdr fighter has an explosive bottle.

Your inability to use counterplay properly is completely your fault. Lol a barb missing a panther with an achilles on a hatchet? Okay.

There's so, so many ways to deal with druid, and all people like you do is weep about how supposedly strong it is.

Again. No PDR fighter loses, at least on paper, to a panther druid. And including them skirmishing away from you isn't exactly a stunning rebuttal of that. Bring the explosive bottle next time.

[granite knot]

Shame I can turn into human and stay in dreamwalk, cast spells and to turn into panther again.

Where is the counterplay? Panther doesn't give a single f about little poison, curse or bottle or elevated platform.

[meager jasper]

Lol turn into a human and stay in dreamwalk after losing a fight in panther. You're just a liar dude. How are you taking that extra hit after transforming back?

And of course, if you're a panther, you're not very good at healing.

[meager jasper]

Are you...dense? All of those things are for rat.

Again, I asked you for videos. Show me this mythical panther wrecking a properly kitted pdr fighter. Show me.

Your personal opinion isn't compelling. Show me evidence.

Should be easy to find a half-dozen fighters who play like masters who still die to panthers right? Despite the fact they have front-facing heads exactly where their weapons are and they die in two hits of nearly any weapon. Sometimes one.

Complete delusion. You're either trying to nerf your counter-class or you're just incapable of basic rational thought. So get the evidence, and we'll see if the fighter actually made mistakes.

And your stance isn't new by the way. Literally everyone in this game complains exactly like you do about exactly the opposite class they play. Imagine that. It's always the game balance's fault in an asymmetrical game. Never you. Never them.

Jeez. You're typing up a text wall there aren't you? There's nothing further you can add, you know? Get some real evidence of how supposedly OP panther is.

[granite knot]

Damn, trying to win an unwinnable at all costs, so you got passive-aggresive? Yikes.

I wonder how that works in your favor at all.

[meager jasper]

You're making claims about the balance that don't track with basic maths. So again, if you think what you said was true, just get any evidence.

[granite knot]

Meanwhile you attack everyone when someone touches your precious druid.

How is that helping you?

I have to wonder, did you have a hissy fit when they nerfed panther?

[meager jasper]

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm asking for evidence. Stop dancing around the issue. If you're able to prove that panther can face-tank a fighter and kill it, I'll rescind my stance.

[granite knot]

Suuuuuuuuuuure, just having a little passive aggresive thing you have going on, but it's not an attack in any way. Right

Any fighter?

[meager jasper]

You are currently attacking my personality, instead of responding to my argument. That's called ad hominem. You're the only one here who's attacking anyone.

Rigor is not 'passive aggressive'. Let's see the evidence.

And I'll decide if you're right based on it, and nothing else. Let's let the data tell the story yes?

Because both of us, you'll surely agree, have biases.

[granite knot]

You definitely have, since druid is a golden child to you.

[meager jasper]

I'm a sorcerer main, and bear druid is my secondary. I don't have any real stake in panther, I just know you're wrong because I've actually played it. It's not relevant either way, that's just another appeal. You're trying to discredit me without actually addressing me, yet again. Can you or can you not prove a druid in equivalent kit can kill a plated fighter with only panther? Without relying on running away repeatedly with rat to try and attrition them.

Because I'll give you a hint. It can't. It's not close, either.

Bear is the 'correct' solution for druid to fighter, and it struggles with longsword parries.

[granite knot]

Every single time someone says druid should be either deleted or nerfed, you come in to defend the class. Like clockwork, yet you claim druid is not a golden child?

Oh, now you're making conditions so my evidence is actually viable to you? Who would have thought...

[meager jasper]

So that's a no.

looks into the camera
That's all folks. If you'll excuse me. I'd rather not listen to someone repeatedly complain with no basis. Bye.

[granite knot]

Thanks for proving my point.

[meager jasper]

So many appeals. Lol. You were told how to prove something.

[granite knot]

So much passive - aggresivness for something you can't defend.

[meager jasper]

Still coming back to make some new, vapid statement I see? Seeing people flounder around trying desperately not to give receipts for their stupidity is always funny.

[meager jasper]

Defend? I don't need to defend anything. You're the one making a claim. It's on you to prove it. End of story. So prove it, or don't.

The more you fail to give any sort of real evidence I hope you know how absolutely foolish you look.

[granite knot]

Aren't you always the one claiming druid is balanced? How is that not defending the class?

[meager jasper]

I told you my opinion could be changed with evidence to the contrary.

[granite knot]

Yet you provided none.

[meager jasper]

You are making the claim, stop deflecting.

[granite knot]

Was I the one who said druid is balanced and didn't back it up with evidence, just a personal opinion?

[meager jasper]

Its on you, as the person suggesting we change druid, to have receipts. You can't weasel your way out of the basic reality that you're making a claim here.

Basic scientific method here, bud. Stop trying to wriggle out of it, it's cringe.

You're allowed to say I'm wrong if you have evidence to back it up. But otherwise you're just pretending your word is better than someone elses. Which is not a compelling argument. Especially when you're talking to someone who has actually, in the past, mained druid exclusively for a season.

[granite knot]

"Druid is balanced." But yeah, words are not compelling argument, are they now?

[meager jasper]

Seriously though, I'm done with you if you're not going to say anything productive. You know full well I can't prove a negative, but you're still trying to 'reason' your way to winning an internet argument like a child.

Have a lovely night, and enjoy taking the last word and looking even more like a fool, even though you refuse to give even one video, even a biased one, showing a druid doing what you say they can do.

[granite knot]

What's the word describing the thing you criticise yet doing at the same time? Hypocrisy?

Go on, prove to me druid doesn't need any change at all.

[meager jasper]

Can't prove a negative.

Night night, coldcoder. I hope you find a way to evict druid from your mind, since it seems to live there so rent free.

[hollow estuary]

i would complain about druid, but really the only thing to be mad about is the lack of any pvp
i haven't fought a druid in over 2 weeks

[meager jasper]

Tbh I don't even think there's that many of them. Even at the height of the game's population I never came across that many. I'd honestly like to see the breakdowns of classes in a season again like we got in the PTs

[untold burrow]

when does it wipe?

[next juniper]

make druid transformations take 2 seconds and root them in place while their doing it

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[granite knot]

Careful, Zen will tell you to suck it and get good.

[granite plinth]

they should add some kind of bash mechanic so you can stun people who hold parries, shields, blocks it would deepen the melee system and prevent players from parry goblining, cuz you shouldn't get rewarded as much from just a parry, a free attack is enough don't need a insta kill cuz you tried to attack them or make a counter to that.

[icy knot]

Maybe there should be another tournament. I wonder which class would win again

Because what happened to the druid since then. He got shapeshift cooldown and panther buffed.

[icy knot]

They should make strong transformations without shapeshift mastery(nerfing shapeshift time) and weaker transformations with shapeshift mastery

[fathom hemlock]

Rework warlock in some way. Seriously look at their spells right now. If you don’t have a cleric frontline power of sacrifice is bad, ray of darkness has always been bad, since the nerf hydra life drain is bad, bloodstained blade doesn’t do true damage so most of the time you’re doing more damage to yourself than enemies, and eldritch shield is a really cool idea, I personally think there should be more shields in the game but it doesn’t shield enough and is too costly plus takes your darkness shards and doesn’t scale up with damage so doesn’t benefit from them. Genuinely the only good warlock spells now are curse of pain which doesn’t stack the first hit anymore so you just curse of pain and dark bolt spam. The only viable warlock playstyle now is movespeed true magic spam with curse which is extremely toxic to play against and unfun to play and results in a toxic and unrewarding gameplay loop where either you die to curses and can’t catch the warlock or you have the stats to beat the warlock and win. This class is in desperate need of changes Becuase right now it’s in a terrible state. I hope the devs see this.

[icy knot]

Well interesting balance changes.

• We will see why rogue was given move speed penalty to double jump.

• Solo cleric was cooking before we will see what he will be doing now with smite.

• 30seconds for +2 kinda strong

• Warlock has +3all but it's okey. Now it's worth playing this only curse playstyle.

• +100%mpb back to play meme beam is good.

[winter idol]

Don't forget time distortion back to 100%

[winter idol]

True

[winter idol]

Also I lowkey dig the dj buff. The nerf was on since before druid came out and backstep was a thing. It was kinda broken back then. Now there is much more mobility in the game. So we'll see.

[feral night]

cleric back at the top after a very short time in the mid tier so excited to see that

[limber elbow]

IRONMACE really love ranger that why they buff him hard to broken and never got nerf , and if you play goblin cave you know that big spider special attack can make player can't attack but not for ranger , with a guy stack hp to 190 take 1 hit from ranger he down 70-80% good game balance . that why i say i love this game in beta test and ready to pay 50$ to play but now if some one give me 100$ i still say no this game like shit now

[lilac garden]

HEAR ME OUT

what if crows no longer deal damage to you in ruins but they are still there to make a shit ton of sounds instead?

[icy knot]

I'm still not gonna play soul collector for my caster warlock.

Sorcerer has 50% additional magical power bonus for 3 spells.
Warlock has 100% but he doesn't have good dark magic damage spells and after cast you lose all of it for the rest of the fight. If only warlock got all shards back after getting a player kill.

But then this perk will be so complicated on top of your +all you just better to split it into 2 perks or make skill tree xd

[valid oak]

True, tm warlock it's unplayable too, it's an old class completely useless in this meta

[meager jasper]

I agree, but maybe not for the same reasons. I think that warlock and wizard are both unfun classes when it comes down to the way they feel to play and play against. I would prefer both of them operate more like sorcerer. I've gotten decent at both wiz and lock in the past, but once I played sorc this season it was genuinely eye-opening what it was like to actually be allowed to use your own spells, and have them be punchy but not unfair feeling low-cast-time hitscans that make you behave like a deadly mosquito on steroids with an agi/know build.

The only reason warlock pays life for its spells is as a balance measure vs wizard having to use spell uses.

Spells uses were always an unnecessary mechanic that warps the damage balance of spells. Cooldowns make spells no longer spammable, which allows them to be stronger, without making them oppressive.

The design, in other words, is based on a false premise, and is several levels of bad balance deep into a system that doesn't actually make sense in the first place.

[idle plover]

Getting worse and worse the hotfixes

[meager jasper]

These changes are a w in my opinion. The nerfs to cleric were not intelligent in the first place. TD should be a 0-cast time perk.

While we're talking about cleric, there's a pretty easy way to balance clerics spells better too... Cooldowns.

The instinct with this is probably that sorcerer should have its own unique interaction with spells, but honestly, it's just bad to have spell uses. Sorcerer will still feel unique because it has unique perks and can cast with its hands. It doesn't need to be the only class with CDs. Let all the classes benefit from a balance pass of their spells and a bunch of CDs attached to them I say. It will overall make all magic feel stronger but reign in so many toxic-feeling ones.

[teal egret]

Add rapiers and daggers to warlock add melee perks he is supposed to be a hybrid not just spell caster

[meager jasper]

They did that. It was completely op.

[teal egret]

Actually? But make a come back with some tweaks

[meager jasper]

I would much rather they focused on making platelock viable than gave more classes daggers and rapiers - which are extremely annoying to deal with. The most annoying class in the game doesn't deserve more annoying tools.

Also they would need bloodstained blade and demonform pretty fundamentally changed in order to allow daggers.

[teal egret]

Plate lock is horrible in every way he doesn’t have that much magic weapons to use unlike cleric has smite that scales he just has BOC them does 0 damage without it

Just go demons glee fighter better platelock lmao

[meager jasper]

Yes, I completely agree. It doesn't make sense.

Hopefully the boc buff helps a little bit

[teal egret]

The BOC buff is actually huge I can go crystal sword platelock and delete plate fighters. But that’s all then get deleted by a barbarian with reckless and iron will

And does iron will work as a passive or does it have a cooldown

[hollow estuary]

guys can you believe it, another pointless patch that doesnt fix fow and lack of pvp

[meager jasper]

I can. Maybe one day they'll listen about dark swarm and gobbo merchant too. Til then im basically done with HR

[teal egret]

Yea anyone he tried to do wyvern? In hr you gotta fight him in swarm

[icy knot]

99% you are right
My additions:

• Power of sacrifice could get small buff but I think it's okey, people just don't realize how strong it is and how to use it.

• Ray is such an easy spell to hit, has 100%scaling + benefits from dark shards. I would say it's situational: very good vs shields.

• Life drain was playable when TM was weaker. For some reason devs decided running around and healing should be easy/main warlock build so they buffed it.

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[sleek sierra]

is anyone elses game just saying connecting and not actually letting you in?

[winter idol]

The problem with POS is not the spell itself it's the circumstances around it.

1. (Same for demonlock) most people play on range and go for kiting, where POS will just burn 48 hp and give nothing in return. Warlock has no tools to gapclose if the enemy wants to keep the distance.
2. If the enemy wants to get personal, you already want to open with cop, maybe cow and bb. It just gets to much preparation. If I have to decide between pos and bb I would always take bb, just for the fakt that I can buff myself before getting in without loosing a ahotton of hp on the way if the enemy just decides to run. POS is pretty good in theory but if u run 10 spell melee warlock your trolling and if you run 5 spell there are simply spells that u can use much more consistently.

[icy knot]

True. Situational spell

used by every TM warlock to heal, deal damage, buff himself.

Give me better POS idea

[icy knot]

Has Crystal sword BOC damage increased?

I don't think so

[worthy anchor]

for the last days of wipe can you make hell drop artifacts like crazy? I want to have a crazy end of wipe and people that don't have gold can enjoy what it feels like too play with a folgor or viola

[jolly leaf]

Nop, Crystal sword have Magic weapon damage, not Magical damage like Book and Sphere. Magic weapon damage only apply when you melee hit with the sword not with the skill/spell you use with the sword in hand

[icy knot]

Magic staff buff ❌
Magical scaling abilities buffs ✅

Why

[proven wigeon]

stop patching and , back and forth your classes, fix core game mechanics, holy the amount of pandering these dev do for this community, yet I still cant jump over a barrel depending on demand if its faced a certain way, or attempt blocking with a sword without attacks going straight through the sword at certain distances. Prioritize.

[icy knot]

@keen onyx @full tulip
Do something about trade Bots
#warlock message

[jolly leaf]

So they're really pushing the PvE mode next wipe, without giving any detail about it... They promised to improve at communication and then do that. Again -> #game-discussion message

[odd parrot]

Fuck low skill/low effort Druid players holy crutch man aha just delete the class at this point

[icy knot]

They started to listen, but to the wrong people.

• They saw clerics crying about having to choose the correct spell during a teamfight.
• They saw Sorcerers complaining for no reason about a 25% nerf?
• They saw the double jump meme and thought the game itself is a joke, so they buffed double jump instead of nerfing the Druid.
  #the-tavern message
• Weapon mastery change reverted? why? Because our lord sdf is playing him?
• At least the Warlock changes weren’t that broken.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah it's so mess up. I'm really losing hope when they do stuff like that

[icy knot]

Probably everyone will play PvE since class balance is still in the gutter.

You also Watched OnePeg vid?

[jolly leaf]

Which one? On all the recent revert?

[icy knot]

yup

[jolly leaf]

Yeah i've seen it

[icy knot]

I always try to stay positive about changes, but OnePeg sometimes really opens my eyes.

At least cleric is not completely reverted, but bless(+2 all) having 30seconds again is too much.

[jolly leaf]

Imo the worst revert is the sorcerer one, in fact it's a buff. Because now you have instant cast with x3 cooldown instead of x4

[icy knot]

- Smite's attribute bonus ratio changed from 75% to 100%.
Have devs watched Firebox cleric videos? How he without breaking a sweat kills other tanky classes?

[icy knot]

yup

[jolly leaf]

Cleric was probably already the strongest melee/tanky class before the Divine protection and Smite buff

[icy knot]

indeed. As if we are playing a completely different game. Probably because they truly have no experience in this game yet.

I'm actually surprised that SDF isn't nerfing Sorc while playing Fighter. He might start soon when the next season begins.

[jolly leaf]

Can't wait to see how what the PvE mode will look like. Can we extract stuff from this mode? Is it host locally, or are they really going to open a server for 1 team (which is exactly why they released the Continuous dungeon)? Or is there several team on the map but you can hurt other player (which would be dumb because you can't really train boss etc because everyone is going to fight it). I don't see how this goes well, either they're working on it for a long time now, never talked about it and are going to release something big without ever hyping people or they really started to work on something a few week before Graysun talked about it in The Tavern and I don't see how it can be good

[jolly leaf]

How do you see this PvE mode? I personally don't think it's a good idea, but hey they're doing it anyway so let's start making suggestion.

Here's how I see it :

• A 3x3 map with at least one boss room
• FoW, Randomized dungeon
• You can only drop gear with a slightly lower drop rate than normal, the gear dropped in PvE mode can only be used there and you can only use gear found in this mode. Maybe setup something with the Squire, a PvE Gearset
• 3-4 people in solo, 2-3 team in duo, 2 team in trio (For server cost, can't open a server for one team)
• The boss room can't be open from the outside after the fight start (So the first team to reach it have a fair try)
• Not sure about this one but, always one floor (to minimize server cost). If you choose PvE mode in Forgotten castle you randomly get Ruins, Crypt or Inferno. Need to figure out something for Ice cavern

Any feedback? Other idea?

[icy knot]

Lock the bosses for free-to-play (F2P) players. Once they purchase the game, the bosses should be unlocked.

[elfin onyx]

What would be the point to have teams in a pve mode?
Unless people can't kill eachother this sound more like a shorter raid mode

This isn't specifically about your suggestion im just wondering how there going to do pve mode but we'll have to see on April 11th

[jolly leaf]

Server cost

[elfin onyx]

Yeah alright

I like that its 3x3, like a way for newer players to start

What about that "sewer" idea they had? That sounds like a perfect location for timmys to crawl their way out and EARN the right to delv into the dungeons

[jolly leaf]

If they forced the Continuous dungeon because "We had lobby open for 15 to 45min with only one team" to then proceed to add a PvE mode who's a full map with only one team I quit

[elfin onyx]

Hey you said you wouldn't be a doomer

[jolly leaf]

I had the same reflexion but it have to be 2 different thing. The main reason people ask for a PvE mode is to train mobs and boss, every mob and every boss. This Sewer idea would be a Tutorial map, probably with no boss, it wouldn't work as a PvE training ground

[jolly leaf]

Sry boss

[elfin onyx]

I understand the want for training for bosses, I had the same want when I was learning troll and cyclops but idk it feels out of place to have an own section just to learn bosses.

But if they can make it feel natural than I'd be down, like having a campaign in the sewer and ending it with a boss

[elfin onyx]

Lmao didn't read the end of your message alright maybe a boss would be too much, than a miniboss

[jolly leaf]

I totally agree with you, imo this PvE mode is a terrible idea and it shouldn't exist, but hey they're doing it anyway without asking us or giving any detail, so I make adapt and try to suggest thing to make it good

I'd prefer to see them improve how the Rookie lobby work. So people can learn the game and train everything they want with people of same skill level (If people reaaaaaally want a training ground)

[elfin onyx]

My main hope for a pve mode is the introduction of new content that couldn't be in a pvp environment but at the same time, even while writing this I also really don't want them to divert updates/content from the main game to this pve mode so I don't know just hold the line I guess

[jolly leaf]

Yep, that's why I don't see how a PvE mode could be a good thing. It's either bad and pointless or good but then it took a lot of time and ressources from the main game. That's why #game-discussion message

[elfin onyx]

I would think the goal is to have some harmony between the modes.

"Just did a bunch of raids and got some bis gear lemme head to pve mode (hope they give it a cool name) and rack up some kills on bosses (if bosses are even in pve mode)

Writing this shows how little we know about this mode but we can only hope for

[jolly leaf]

I like this idea xD But it'll upset everyone

[jolly leaf]

But then why don't work on making harmony in the dungeon instead? The game was meant to be PvPvE, we came here for that, because it was unique, focus on that. There is a bunch of very good suggestion who try to do that

[icy knot]

F2P players should be allowed to play PVE mode to train bosses. But it would be better marketing strategy if it was only for legendary status players.

[jolly leaf]

Hear me out, FP2 player should be allowed to play only PvE mode

[elfin onyx]

That would be fine if the game first came out but now that would mean stopping fp2s from playing pvpve, a riot would happen even if most of the people rioting have legendary accounts

[jolly leaf]

Worth it xD

[icy knot]

Yea I also thought about that but you can't take away candy(normals) from a child. It will be very mad

[jolly leaf]

The kid have to learn, the hard way

[elfin onyx]

Sounds more like a culling

[jolly leaf]

Clearly it's too late to do that, but it would have been the good thing to do if the F2P had been released after the PvE mode

[elfin onyx]

Look i played the game before there was a Squire or a map, I know I've grown soft with all these things so making the game harder is fine by me but it depends what's increased in difficulty, I suggested not being able to move while having the map out

[jolly leaf]

I've always said they gave too much to the F2P player. The normal, only white gear was enough

[icy knot]

You know what devs could do. Change normals into PVE and after a year bring back normals but only for legendary accounts

[elfin onyx]

I mean they only get 1 class account that seems fair and they can't do hr

[jolly leaf]

That's still let you do 80% of the game content. Every quest, boss, craft, class (even if annoying)

[elfin onyx]

Didn't know f2ps could do quests or craft

[jolly leaf]

Imo the main thing that could make me buy the game as a greedy f2p is Arena

[jolly leaf]

It's litteraly faster to say what F2P can't do. They can't sell thing on the marketplace, can't play HR, can't play Arena, can't have more than 1 character. I think that's it, except that they can do everything else

[elfin onyx]

I can see how restricting more stuff for f2ps, like I said I didnt know they could also do all that stuff I saw the free version as a samplier of the game.

Imagine as a f2p you go down the red stairs in crypts and it kicks you out saying only legendary can experience lower levels

[icy knot]

Yooo that smart. Restrict F2P to only one map

[jolly leaf]

As we said it's too late now but it could have been a good thing

[elfin onyx]

Only ice cavern

[icy knot]

@keen onyx @full tulip Restrict water map from being played by F2P accounts!

Allow them to play only 3 that exists already, because you can't take away it from them now...

[elfin onyx]

If ironmace was a bad company* the water map would be dlc

[icy knot]

They could even restrict classes

[elfin onyx]

Oh no you only get the original cast of classes

[jolly leaf]

No that would have a bad impact on the marketplace, gear of FP class would cost more

[icy knot]

No if they are restricted to white gear only. But you are right

What if maps were unlocked by level of the character or by completing quests?

[elfin onyx]

Wellll i mean the collectors quests basically mentioned the water map, I forget the name of the quest line ill look at the wiki but it would be neat to have to do a tough quest to unlock the map

[icy knot]

Yea each merchant has many map specific quests.

[elfin onyx]

https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/The_Collector

Chapter: Submerged Secrets

Yeah but this one is about a map that's not in the game yet

[icy knot]

What if trade and marketplace were unlocked by doing quests. What if some merchants were unlocked after doing some quests.

So much untapped potential

[elfin onyx]

I mean I can see a first general quest of gathering being needed to unlock the market, I mean you need level 20 to access it which already gives off a "prove yourself" vibe

[pulsar sparrow]

Do not allow pve to mix with the normal marketplace

[remote hornet]

how come so many people are only doing the arena stuff?

im returning player and everyone is goin ham about the arena.

[sharp roost]

stop freaking flip flopping you flip flopping bastards

[granite sapphire]

Because we can run whatever and go crazy without losing gear, which adds more incentive to find and/or craft the juiciest gear and make random builds that may or may not be viable in a safe testing environment

More fights, less other stuff

[nocturne pond]

if we MUST have a pve mode hopefully its something like arena, just a short module clear with like greens and maybe a blue or two

[jolly leaf]

I hope it'll not work and they finally focus on improving the Dungeon but as you say if the PvE mode must be then i'm pretty happy of my suggestions #suggestion-discussion message

[somber elk]

trio dead duo dead pure failure, dont listen to players, listen to your mind. the game was trio in the first and balance wasnt a problem, now we just balancing to salsify solo players and have no time to add content

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[twilit narwhal]

ADD MORE UNIQUE ITEMS

[granite plinth]

why did they remove 125+ gear score for normals

i'm not about to pay 30 usd for some highroller

[barren grove]

Will wizard finally get worked on for bare minimum solos atleast or are u guys going to make sorcerer the new magic druid with a longsword...

[icy knot]

Too much content for F2P
This needs to change

[icy knot]

Sorc got ultra buffed last 2 patches. I don't think good sorc player is beatable.

[barren grove]

Im just saying giving a class low cooldowns on half hp and 30 insta cast spells and a long sword to riposte with doesnt seem fair when wizard has to crutch on one spell if they get slightly close to them (magic missle)

Atleast sorcs benefit from the true magic damage and the spam is so fast that u can kill geared people on squire gear. Meanwhile wizards are now forced to build knowledge only and use mana surge (10% magic power bonus) and just feel like a cheap copy of sorcerer.

I thought sorcerer would be something out of avatar not an instant cast spam jedi

[night wharf]

buff tumble 😁

[icy knot]

Make a meme about it they will buff it

[night wharf]

its already a meme if you run it bc how bad it is rn

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[versed hinge]

MORE ARTIFACT WEAPONS! Unique Zwei with old blood exchange effect

[versed hinge]

and make flute reposte do 150% instead of 110%

[jolly leaf]

Hi @dawn grotto How close am I of how the PvE mode will be?

I assumed that this PvE mode is meant to be a training ground/tutorial.

Here's how I see it :

• A 3x3 map with at least one boss room
• FoW, Randomized dungeon
• You can only drop gear with a slightly lower drop rate than normal, the gear dropped in PvE mode can only be used there and you can only use gear found in this mode. Maybe setup something with the Squire, a PvE Gearset
• 3-4 people in solo, 2-3 team in duo, 2 team in trio (For server cost, can't open a server for one team)
• The boss room can't be open from the outside after the fight start (So the first team to reach it have a fair try)
• Not sure about this one but, always one floor (to minimize server cost). If you choose PvE mode in Forgotten castle you randomly get Ruins, Crypt or Inferno. Need to figure out something for Ice cavern

[winter idol]

To find something positive about pve mode:

We all know that pve in this game could really see some improvements. There are good reasons experienced players ignore it whenever they can. To make this pve mode work the kinda need to step up their game with like pve events, better craftables, more exciting mob and boss mechanics and so on. Until now they basically ignored that because players cared mostly for pvp. Now they have to think about making pve feel compelling on its own and there could be much to gain from this new nessecity for the game as a whole.

[jolly leaf]

Yes you're right on that. But if they figured that out, why not do that directly in the main game mode? I feel like the PvE mode would be better as a small tutorial/training ground instead of a big thing with lot of PvE content or worst exclusive PvE content. Just do that on the Main game mode

[winter idol]

Well this would be a good question, but I don't try to understand their reasoning, just trying to see the bride side xD

Also one could argue that there wasn't really a great demand from the community for that and they already have alot to focus on. People demanded a pve mode because they struggled with pvp. I very rarely read something about actually improving the pve to make it more interesting. Also I can imagine it's quite hard to get reliable data about pve player interactions in the classic gamemodes. I don't know.

[icy knot]

Many new players commented and suggested "make pve mode"

[jolly leaf]

We always come back to the same thing. The game would be way more interesting for both PvE and PvP player if they add In dungeon content, new point of interest, improved existing feature like FoW and Randomized. You made the good suggestion with this one : https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/620767/improve-continuous-dungeon-instead-of-reimplementing-the-circle Honestly that would solve most issues, maybe indercetly for some

[jolly leaf]

Well, https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/487404/pve-only-mode That's one of the old one now, and it only have less than 500 upvote. I feel like people asking for that are a vocal minority/shortsighted people. In fact people with a better vision and knowledge of the game understand that something like this would be better #suggestion-discussion message

[icy knot]

Yes it definitely is minority. I think they are focusing now on new player experience.

[jolly leaf]

Oh also I got the best idea yesterday about the F2P restriction. Let them do EVERYTHING, give them the whole game. But only on the test server. Boom problem fixed, you now have thousand of people testing your game for free.
And to make them still buy the game, only update the test server with the update you really need to test, don't let them have blue shard stuff like that

[winter idol]

But I do agree. I would love to see something like a pve only map as a kind of starting dungeon. But not a complete gamemode similar to hr with all the maps and all the same content.

Imo I really think by making all maps exist parallel to each other they really missed the chance to form progressing through the different dungeons as the games main gameplay loop similar to mmos or rpgs.

Following their idea of separating normals from HR:

Connect every normal map to a different gear bracket so players have a clear starting map wich could totally be pve only. With better gear you can go on the next map, wich offers harder enemies (tailored to the specific gs) new mechanics like layers down, pvp, key rooms, whatever and better loot to progress further and further. Make all normal maps ssf (including merchant items but no marketplace).

On HR reuse all maps parallel to each other as we have right now (except circle ofc). Basically leave HR as is. This would make getting into the game so much easier and more structurised, while not messing with endgame players. I dint know just a thought.

[jolly leaf]

Which is a bad idea imo, because if you're new and you leave the game because you can't handle both PvE and PvP imo the game is not meant for you, A PvE mode won't change that, you'll learn and get better at PvE but still gonna hate and get stomp in PvP and eventually leave the game. Would be more interesting to work on the retention of player who already have a couple hundred hour and/or work on improving the Rookie lobby to give people who're actually here for a PvPvE game progress in a more fair environnement, with people or your skill level

[jolly leaf]

That could work, I think it's too late now, it could have been the good way if they started by that tho

[winter idol]

I don't know if it's to late. Honestly I think the majority of players that hate on everything new are veterans that mainly play hr and they are not affected. And I feel like normal players would appreciate gs tailored mob difficulty and also the option to actually play higher rarity gear without having to go hr. Even if it's just on specific maps it's still more than they can right now. Like someone pointed out the other day, you can't even run a full set of green gear with a white secondary weapon in norms. So it would basically be a straight upgrade xD

[signal narwhal]

I would love if they could add short little dev comments to each class they touch in the patches. Just want to explain what they're shooting/hoping for because the near constant changes to Warlock darkness shards, and the immediate rollback time distortion changes makes no sense to me.

[winter idol]

True

[sharp arch]

Does magical healing and magical power scale druids healing?

[winter idol]

Yes

[icy knot]

⬆️ yes! @keen onyx @full tulip what was the reason behind all of this

At least recent changes finally balanced healing druid

Devs in patch 82: time to revert druid changes

[winter idol]

I made a suggestion regarding this. Upvote if you like it

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/624874/the-chance-to-make-norms-the-dungeon-crawler-it-was-always-supposed-to-be

[ripe turtle]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/624882/pve-gear-for-pve-mode-and-pvp-gear-for-pvp-mode < Some food for thought about PvE mode.

[icy knot]

Legendary accounts have access to a 'shared character stash', allowing them to have an excessive amount of inventory and marketplace listing space. I think it's somewhat game-breaking and should be removed in the future.

I don't know how people will react to having no market for the first few weeks of next season or how it will impact the economy, but as a good idea for the future, I suggest reducing the number of possible marketplace listings and adding quests that allow players to increase them. Alternatively, being part of a religion could also provide more listings.

[winter idol]

For marketplace listing: I do think that shared marketplace listings across characters would he a good thing. Just for the fact alone that you don't have to check every character by hand for sold items. Maybe giving access to 5 slots once u unlock the marketplace with a few more slots to unlock via quests up to a total of like 20 or 25 maybe.

For the packmule charscters: I don't really see how you could prevent this without major artificial limitations. I also don't see a big problem in this.

[winter idol]

In general I would love to see more elements of the game being locked behind quest progress. Marketplace slots, stash tabs, even things like religion.

[icy knot]

Having so many listings causes the marketplace to inflate very quickly, and being able to use other characters as your 'mules' is an added advantage that further contributes to this inflation. That's why the devs will remove the marketplace in the next season as an attempt to combat this issue.

I believe this shared stash exists primarily so that Legendary accounts have something that F2P players don't.

Or they are removing marketplace to bring back this loot extraction feeling. That people will probably hate.

[winter idol]

The shared stash exists because players wanted it since forever. Long before the marketplace was a thing. You don't want to go back to the times before I assure you xD

[icy knot]

yes I don't want, no one wants to have stuff taken away. but it will be better for the game.

give 2 or 3 additional stashes to all characters instead of shared stash

[winter idol]

Well I think a lot of people (me included) would really love the loot extraction dungeon crawler feeling. Definitely not all tho. Alot will hate being forced to do it. Wich is why I would suggest keeping the ssf to norms and allowing the marketplace for hr. If ironmace wants to separate the two gamemodes, I'm on board. Create two modes that cater to the different player types. Make norms the dungeoncrawler that it was always supposed to be

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/624874/the-chance-to-make-norms-the-dungeon-crawler-it-was-always-supposed-to-be

[winter idol]

The shared stash is not important for having more inventory space. It's important to literally send items between characters.

[icy knot]

Shared stash should be used to transfer valuable items between characters, not as extra storage room.

Maybe some restrictions should be added to shared stash i don't know.

[icy knot]

me too but people also love marketplace as it was best addtion to the game. so the marketplace should be limited but not to this extend as they are about to do.

[winter idol]

The marketplace will return. It's just to soften the start of the wipe and probably to test how ssf would impact the game. I'm pretty sure after this period is over, they will keep ssf for certain parts of the game and allow the marketplace for others. I'm not sure how exactly they do this. Only time will tell.

[winter idol]

Also just going of of myself:

I almost never buy from the marketplace for normals, only for hr since building a kit for norms is absolut pain xD so keeping the ssf for norms only would probably be generally viewed as a good change if it allows for higher gs to be played in norms. Unless ofc I'm an exception here.

[icy knot]

@abstract stirrup I think this could be useful here! Can you make this happen?

[abstract stirrup]

Hmmmmm. I'll raise the suggestion

[icy knot]

Additionally, I believe there should be more options available beyond just a tick and a cross.

[north jungle]

really should add a thing where you could at least see or report the player's name tag that killed you, don't have to be the whole team when you get out or all dies.

if your team mate didn't all die for exit blue or they just left from the cheaters where they took blue or red, there is no way of reporting them,

it just happened to me where there was a cheater one taped me and i forgot to see the death cam and i cant even report him even with screen recording on proving them to be cheating. which makes me very sad QWQ

https://outplayed.tv/dark-and-darker/eVzXVe

[grave crown]

Remove the arena team rank cap

[jolly leaf]

There is definitely progress to do concerning the report system. It still lack some basic reason like "Teamkill" or "AFK/Abandon". Also one Arena game should count for the 5 game needed to get 1 Karma point, right now you basically can't "Karma down vote" people you played with in arena. Also we should be able to report people via the Arena "Recent Matches" and we should have one for the dungeon too. I think Hunt : Showdown have a good "game recap" system that show you every people you interacted with in the game and allow you to report them even after the game.

A better in-game report system would help to fight cheater and toxic player

[north jungle]

for sure making some great points, but i think being able to see every one is a bit too much work on the servere holding all the data, all i need is the person that killed me or the people that did the most damage to be and i can report them for that

[jolly leaf]

Everyone who interacted with you, kill or damaged

[elfin onyx]

That was in hr at one point, remember the names that you did damage to/got damaged from were on the right

[jolly leaf]

Really? I don't remember that, but nice that mean they know how to do it

[elfin onyx]

yeah i tried looking for the hotfix with it but gave up asked the wiki discord if there was a page where i could scroll through every single hotfix

[fresh plinth]

i just queued into an arena in squire gear because there is no minimum gear-score and because the game always defaults to the last thing you do. I am sorry to thee people that queued up with me just now. My suggestion is to have minimum gear score in arena and also to make the menu be blank or default to what you play most not what you played most recently.

[ashen canyon]

While that isn’t a bad idea, I think the better idea is to slow down and pay attention before you queue. Should always check gear, queue type and class before hitting ready.

[fresh plinth]

youre not wrong but I will say it was my first game of the day and I only started playing arenaa last couple weekends

[ashen canyon]

Totally understandable, I’ve went into arena before with the wrong gear, on another occasion wrong perks, it’s a learning moment more than anything.

[hollow estuary]

i would love to hear sdf talk about his dellusions

[alpine violet]

triple sorc in arena shouldnt be allowed. completely unfair

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[icy knot]

Yo, someone cooked this good idea that could improve loot extraction part of the game.
-> HR Dungeon Recovery for Self-Found items ONLY <-
I think this could also be applied to normals.

This is a step in the right direction, and the idea could be refined even further.

@keen onyx @full tulip this:
What if self-found items were guaranteed to be returned by a goblin, while handled ones had only small chance of being returned? This would encourage players to use self-found items, leading to more time spent in the dungeon and fewer items being bought on the market.

[winter idol]

Not the worst idea

[icy knot]

It's not a big improvement but a good one

[icy knot]

Or what if items got their stats reduced when traded? but that might be too impactful

[jolly leaf]

That's too much, but the Self found recovery is cool

[lost panther]

Add a simulacrum for bosses/ sub bosses so players can learn them faster.

[jolly leaf]

Wait to see the PvE mode, it might be just that

[winter idol]

Only problem I see:

As long as there is no marketplace (or if they later decide to keep ssf for norms) there is already a no real way to spend gold right. Only thing really is merchant items. gobbo recovery would reduce the need to spend gold even further which could be a problem. Maybe if you were to make it so there is no recovery for bought items and a partial Chance for ssf items, this could work.

[icy knot]

I agree with everything you said

As long as there is no marketplace (or if they later decide to keep ssf for norms) there is already a no real way to spend gold right. Was that a problem before any form of trade existed? Only thing I can think of Is make more ways to spend money. Increase Stash price, introduce religion earlier.

Only thing really is merchant items. gobbo recovery would reduce the need to spend gold even further which could be a problem. Yes, in my suggestion, the only way to lose self-found items would be if another player stole them. Players typically steal only valuable items, so inexperienced players who don’t know what to wear would mostly keep their gear, while experienced players' gear would likely be taken.

Assuming the current Dungeon Recovery system has a 50% probability of an item being returned, this suggestion introduces two probability variables: self-found probability and handled probability that will replace the current single probability for all items.

Basic Idea:

• self-found = 80%
• handled = 20%

Having an 80% probability for self-found items would allow players to keep their dungeon found gear longer. The 20% probability for handled items would ensure that items bought on the market have a higher chance of being lost in the dungeon.

---

It might be beneficial to further divide the Dungeon Recovery probabilities between Normal and High Roller modes as it is currently:

Normal:

• self-found = 80%
• handled = 20%

High Roller:

• self-found = 50%
• handled = 0%

In terms of High Roller, it remains harsh environment for good, purchased items, but becomes more forgiving for real dungeon crawlers.
Numbers could require further adjustments.

[winter idol]

Well that's pretty thought out tbh.

Well as far as I remember there were always trade chat. People still bought items, it just took longer and was way more cumbersome.

[winter idol]

I think i have a solution. This is based on some assumptions, but I think they are pretty fair so bare with me.

IM wants to separate the two gamemodes frome each other, wich is a good idea imo, because there always have been two groups of players: the people that want this game to be a dungeon crawler and the ones that want it to be a battleground. It is fair to assume that at the end norms will become the dungeon crawler and hr the battleground version of dad. With there push to test ssf with the next wipe it is also fair to assume, that in the end ssf will stay for norms, since it is extremely fitting for the dungeon crawler aspect of the game, while marketplace will be brought back for hr, since it's extremely fitting for the high octane battleground aspect of the game.

Now if that happens IM has to rethink a few of the old limitations for both norms and hr. Currently hr is designed to be a harder endgame version of norms. So it makes sense to limit things like high gear and AP gain to hr, while preventing entrance with too low of gear. But if in the future both modes should function basically as standalone modes that carer to different audiences, they both have to be "complete" in their way. That means allowing squire gear back in low bracket hr, aswell as high gs brackets back in norms. It also means that AP rewards should not be kept to HR only if you don't want to force people into HR. Now ofc earning AP in Norms is much easier due to the easier mobs.

So my idea:
Make two different AP ranks for norms and HR. While progressing through ranks in HR stays as it is, there is an additional requirement in norms: once you unlocked a rank via AP points, you don't just get it, but you unlock the option to buy it with gold. With increasing costs for each rank. That would create a huge gold sink only for norms, while not targeting hr and the marketplace economy. It would also incentivise going HR for AP because it's much cheaper.

And ofc you can only collect AP rewards once you upgraded to legendary edition, but you can earn the AP on squire accounts too, encouraging them to buy legendary when they grinded through and see what they would get in terms of skins.

[gleaming mirage]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/625046/stop-announcing-wipe-so-early-its-killing-the-game-real

Maybe the post minimises the complexity of wipes in general but this suggestion would at least start to help IMO

[winter idol]

Not a bad idea but I dint think it would change much. Dark and darker wipes every 3 month consistently, so in the last 4th of the wipe people would still know that wipenis coming soon.

[gleaming mirage]

You are right that most people would know, but the mystery of it all is enough to keep things relatively normal. Currently when the end of season timer begins, the game drastically changes. If we remove that timer alone I believe the change will be noticeable

[winter idol]

I would also love to read your thoughts on those assumptions. I really believe this is what's about to happen eventually if IM doesn't change it's vision again xD do you think it's to far of a stretch?

[winter idol]

Definitely. There was a season not that long ago where something went wrong with the timer. People went wild. It was riot xD so I don't know if it would be good bit definitely noticeable xD

[half pewter]

The game needs a new build for a rogue without invisibility from daggers - a new combat perk that is not limited to invisibility and daggers, but a rework of back attacks or thurst, since it is almost impossible to unleash the potential of a rapier or short sword. For example: the thust short sword perk extends to all types of weapons or a bonus to physical strength when using NON-daggers.

[alpine violet]

please for the love of god stop allowing multiples of the same classes in Arena. It is so toxic....

[jolly leaf]

Too far of a stretch imo. And I'm not that sure it's the way they're going anyway, they're going to release a PvE mode. Expect if it's really only a training ground (which I hope) I don't see them splitting Norm and HR that way, they'll probably make this PvE mode the Dungeon crawler part. And honestly I feel like they're too shortsighted about their own game for that.

Anyway i'm not sure it would be a good thing, that would mean that the Adventure/Dungeon crawler part of the game is limited by Normal rules, weaker mob, less drop rate etc (Otherwise HR lose is particularity, I don't think letting people use Marketplace gear and easier AP would be enough to make people play HR especially if you still lose all you'r gear in HR and not in normal)

I don't know if I was clear, but what I try to say is that I don't think they need to make Norm and HR 2 very different mode or add a PvE mode to make the game feel more like a Dungeon Crawler and like a Battleground. I'm convinced you can manage to do that in one game mode, and then split it in 2 difficulty with HR having a good balance between harder with better loot and not too frustrating/discouraging

[winter idol]

Well they already announced that they want to separate the gamemodes. And tbh im on board for that. They tried to combine the dungeon crawler and the battleground since forever, but whenever they made a step in one direction there was backlash from the other side (Fe. Randomized dungeons+FOW, return of the circle, ssf test next season) it might be possible to combine both goals into one but just with a lot of compromise and loss for both sides. And I honestly don't know what would be the reason for that. You already have a pretty stable norms and hr community. Most people that enjoy norms stay there and same for hr. So the modes are already separated in terms of playerbase.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah, but I don't think the reason of the backlash are about the thing they introduced, it was about how they introduced it. They either don't speak about thing before they release them on live server or add them in a early stage, push them on every map, Normal and HR without trying to make it better first. Like imagine if they introduced Randomized and FoW on one map only and started doing the improvement we spoke about before pushing it on every map. I think that would have been a feature people would like. Same goes for almost everything, every backlash could have been avoided and turned into something good with a tiny bit of communication, testing and listening of feedback. And honestly did they really tried to combine dungeon crawler and battleground? Not much was made to combine PvE and PvP. The gameplay loop/in-game content (I don't speak of class and map, but new things to do in the dungeon, thing that really add to the PvPvE feeling) is pretty much the same since the release of the early 2 year ago.
I won't say that "Most people that enjoy norms stay there" it's more "People who hate HR stick to norms" Especially now that there isn't the same rule in Norm and HR anymore (Swarm, no recovery). By that I mean that the playerbase isn't really separated, not willingly at least.
As I said before, we all came here before the game offered a unique PvPvE experience no other game manage to do, that's what's unique to this game and I believe in the end that's what people want. I just find it sad to end up splitting the game to a PvP game and a Dungeon crawler game, it lose what make it unique, some game do this Fantasy PvP and Fantasy Dungeon crawler better than DnD but none achieve to made them work together.

We're looping on that over and over again but for me there is one way to take to make the game better : #suggestion-discussion message

[jolly leaf]

It may be irrational, it a gut feeling but I don't think splitting the PvE and PvP side of the game is what will make people like it or play it more. This game have so much potential and I feel like this would make it lose what's make it unique

[winter idol]

Maybe your right. I don't know ... time will tell. But one major example I forgot to mention was the first iteration of wyvern. Battleground People hatet that too so it got reverted to a run of the mill boss like every other.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah, that's one of the only thing they tried that I have in mind, but again in bad condition imo. They didn't talked about it, it was on a new boss that everyone wanted to try, never try to improve it before they "reverted" it, for example it could have required only 2 player in solo and 3 in duo to awake the boss, the reward after the boss never been enough for two team and should could have been split on two side of the arena to avoid people betraying each other.
The idea are good but poorly executed, and that stand for almost everything leading to great thing being removed or gutted

[jolly leaf]

And i'm not that optimistic about "time will tell" they need to seriously wake up, really start communicating and listening their community. Honestly the best, long term, thing that should be done is this https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/591702/incentivize-using-the-test-server-by-rewarding-and-including-players. And they know it's the good way, not the easy way but it's what they need to do, they've talked about it in the last Tavern table, they're aware that they need to test things more, that they have the test server but that it'll require to improve it to incentivize people using it, they said that almost word by word

[void atlas]

Probably don't allow two or more of the same class to be on a team in arenas. EVEN IF QUEUEING SOLO

[jolly leaf]

I'm not sure they can allow to do that unless people are ok with way longer queue time

[winter idol]

Yeah right. I still can't understand how they manage to repeatedly push out new half baked ideas without a thought about consequences or testing.

[jolly leaf]

That, that's the main issues with IM. They don't learn from their mistake.

[winter idol]

Yap

[muted crag]

Alright mother heckers I got a new warlock spell for y'all's asses so hold on to it. The names a work in progress but it gets the point across, "Immolating bonfire". You set yourself on fire and sit down, effectively becoming a campfire for teammates!

[void atlas]

there's absolutely no way that it would affect queues more than like .5 seconds with how many times I've seen doubles/triples on BOTH teams. In that case it would have picked the same people just arranged them differently. Even if it attempted to not double down on classes until the queue hits 1 min or something.. it's easily cheesed to intentionally queue into your friends anyways and basically any class doubled up is irritating to play against. Double Rogue? sucks.. Double Ranger? sucks... Double Cleric? sucks... Double Barb? sucks... Double Wizard? sucks.. Double Sorc? sucks... so on and so forth

[jolly leaf]

I agree with you, that's just the reason IM gave us. I could certainly be improved, like you said sometime it's just a matter of arrangement. And I think that people won't mind longer queue time if they stay under a minute, but sometime we're close to that already and I believe forbidding double/triple comp would increase it more than 0.5s especially near the end of wipe

[brave nova]

Warlock skill idea: Shadow Strike. After locking onto a target(in the same way as judgement works), stand still and channel for 0.75 seconds. After the channel ends, dash towards and into the target in shadow form, immune to all but AoE damage and inflict 10(1.0) dark magical damage upon impact, consuming all darkness shards. The caster gains +15% action speed and +5 dark magical weapon damage in the form of a buff, lasting for 3 seconds.

The dash is cancelled if the target moves out of range, or if there happends to be a physical object inbetween the caster and the target. If a different target happends to be in the way, that target will receive the impact damage instead and the dash will end prematurely.

[void atlas]

Personally, I would wait even a good amount longer just to have double classes not be a thing, and I only see the same sentiment all around. Of course, the people who would have no problem with how it is now wouldn't be voicing their opinion however, so hard to tell really, but it seems to me that the general consensus is "Yea, fuk that sheit!" XD as a trio I regularly get queues that are 1:30+ but as a solo it's practically instant almost every time so I dunno.. seems lame, but I am biased

[blazing sleet]

If anything, I would honestly just prefer if they did a subclass system inspired by dungeons and dragons.

[elfin onyx]

Lot of perks have parts of their subclasses in them.

Id say they could combine the perks into subclasses and make a new ultra-perk section of implement all subclasses into separate perks

[blazing sleet]

That’s kinda what I mean

[elfin onyx]

Oh yeah lmao, well I've thought of that for a little bit now

Id say something like that would come with multiclassing

[vestal cloud]

whoevers idea it was too add nightmare mobs too the gamre i hopew you get cancer

arena

[elfin onyx]

Please don't include threats for staff and or users.

[astral reef]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/623549/add-the-menu-brightness-setting-back-as-a-seperate-option

[fleet pagoda]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/625115/keep-random-groups-formed-after-game-ends

[feral night]

this last balancing update sucked why not focus on making one or two classes balanced at a time instead of changing 5+ classes? get one or two classes to a good place and balance around them

[cosmic narwhal]

ok...hot take (not really)
The multiple divisions of gear and teams on the maps (although is ideal)....is dividing players too much.

Am i wrong to believe this?
I`ve played multiple matches in a row without finding a single player.

[alpine violet]

gonna keep saying it. get rid of multiple of the same classes in arena.

[icy knot]

It must be your first wipe

[alpine violet]

I cant play arenas with 50% of my friends cus of the ranking restrictions.... Big sad that we cant just play the comps that we want to with friends.

[icy knot]

Why not make it so spell book gives knowladge

[jolly leaf]

Why should it give any? A crafted one why not. You could make it with the Banshee Sonnet it kinda look like paper and it's useless right now

[icy knot]

when you read you get smarter

[cosmic narwhal]

not really.
played the game since it's first beta.
I know the number of players dilude the closer it is to wipe, but i could manage it and find players, since the maps weren`t randomized and i sort of knew where players usual spawned or where they'd go.

[blazing sleet]

Men of true wisdom are rare to come by.

[icy knot]

Hear me out. There isn’t much variety when it comes to basic magic items. The crystal ball at least has Weapon Damage, but spellbook and magic staff has nothing interesting in them.

[hollow estuary]

frozen take

[blazing sleet]

Im pretty sure magic staff has magical penetration. and then book is ran for least movement speed reduction. But i was just making a joke off of what you said in the sentence i replied to, lol.

[icy knot]

But to be honest in terms of balance magic staff needs buff to be usable

[astral reef]

Please upvote if you also think the menu's are too dark
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/623549/add-the-menu-brightness-setting-back-as-a-seperate-option

[jolly leaf]

Never understood why they normalized Staff, crystal ball and book damage

[barren grove]

add an alchemist class: counts as a caster. can throw potions. can craft special potions ( think of bard but offensive . ) uses herbs as ammo . the herb rarities can affect the crafted usable potions. or even affect potencies so like (1 wardweed = 10 mixes etc etc ) and u can mix multiple potions on the go. if u want to craft very powerful potions you would need a campfire.

[analog pebble]

W

[zealous pawn]

nerf projectile damage if you ever want arena to be a serious mode

[somber wind]

https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/625145/blue-named-gear-for-pve-exclusive-content

[cosmic narwhal]

I think the Artificer would have this.
A few perks that would focus on the whole alchemist sub-class.

[barren grove]

The who

I want the class to be basically a guy who can enchant his crystal sword with potions and then also throw them. A battle mage with lower hp than bard. Maybe add a perk that makes his bottle double bounce

[somber wind]

Artificer is one of the remaining Dungeons and Dragons classes left that are confirmed to be coming. The others are Monk and Paladin.

[jolly leaf]

I'm pretty sure they never confirmed the Artificer. If I remember correctly they've only talked about the basic Dungeon and Dragon class, they've never said anything about class coming from the extension

[somber wind]

During playtest 2 SDF posted the first letter of every planned class or was it Terence, I don't remember; I can go looking for it 1sec

#the-tavern message

[jolly leaf]

Thx. It's just that I've never heard them talk of the Artificer. Monk and Paladin yes but i don't recall any mention of the Artificier

[somber wind]

Yeah it was only talked about early on since it was likely going to be the last class they do. They used to be alot more open about talking about the future before the lawsuit, when the lawsuit happened they stopped talking in chat as much.

SDF has been talking abit more recently though in Twitch chats.

[jolly leaf]

There is the A indeed

[jolly leaf]

They really need to start improving at communication... It's not against Graysun but they should definitely hire someone who's jobs is to be community manager full time

[somber wind]

So the reason why they stopped was they were afraid of anything being used against them in court no matter how inocuous.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah I know that, but in the last Tavern Table podcast they've said that now they'll start releasing information on every plateform, try to improve on communication etc. And well... I don't really see it. Even the annoucement of the PvE mode, not a word on the Discord, they only announced it on Twitter as far as I know

[somber wind]

Yeee it was more so they intend to do more Tavern Tables and do those ads that you see in #📢ironmace-media . We should be seeing another one this coming month.

[somber wind]

I don't think PVE was announced on twitter, that said I haven't checked. I remember it being SDF talking about it in OnePeg's twitch chat.

[somber wind]

Speaking of PVE cough

[jolly leaf]

It does https://x.com/IronmaceGames/status/1905251915996209384. that would have been even worst if they only release the info on onepeg's chat

[somber wind]

AH kk, I haven't been keeping up as much as I used to since I've been waiting for a more major game mechanic.

[jolly leaf]

"from my understanding it's going to be capped at Blue Rarity gear" Where did you heard that? As far as I know we don't know shit about the PvE mode

[somber wind]

Twitch chat

[jolly leaf]

Omg it's so bad to talk about something so important on a twitch chat...

[somber wind]

Who knows though, subject to change. I would like it to be capped at Blue though, Purples crashing in price would be bad I feel.

[jolly leaf]

if you have more detail can you send me a dm pls?

[somber wind]

Literally the only thing was that they would consider PVE exclusive content but that's literally it.

[jolly leaf]

That's so bad... why are they splitting the game in two distinct thing

[barren grove]

Please increase the marketing for the game. Nobody knows the game exist and this wipe its so bad nobody is playing. The economy is in shambles. We need some sort of daily quests that keep the game and economy running. Hell why not just artificially make quests to stabilize the market

[somber wind]

Well if things are capped at Blue they wouldn't have a massive impact on the main game even if we get named blues since they'll get sold on the marketplace so you never really HAVE to do it.

[jolly leaf]

I was talking about the exclusive content

We've all joined this game because it was a unique PvPvE medieval fantasy experience. And instead on working on that, improving the main game mode, they're going to split PvE and PvP, splitting their ressources and making two distinct thing that other game do better

[barren grove]

Ive seen this happen in tarkov and 80% of the people shifted to pve because of how grindy. Barely optimized and cheats infested the game is.

The market in pve also got hit by dupe cheaters even

[somber wind]

I genuinely think that's why rarity is capped at Blue to keep it from being a replacement.

[barren grove]

Honestly pve should be all solo self found

[somber wind]

That might be nice but I feel like that doesn't solve the issue that impacted Tarkov tbh since if someone new plays and goes to PVE they can just stay there and climb rarity.

[barren grove]

Oh nono.tarkovs issue are the devs themselves.

[somber wind]

Nakita is abit stupid lol

[barren grove]

U can fix an economy by either fixing the supply or fixxing the demand

Or start making more items and weapons that can be bartered for other stuff. Like epic sword for epic gem etc

Tarkov did it. The economy is doing great and late wipe prices ALWAYS go up

[jolly leaf]

I really think a PvE mode is a bad idea, especially if they plan to make it more than just a training ground and want to add exclusive content. I've talked about that a few day ago if you'r interested #game-discussion message

[barren grove]

U never run out of money late wipe. Recently if i die in HR i never recover if i spend 2k. Either u get a kill and the kit was 600 gold (doesnt even sell ) or u run solos and hit hoards and waste hours

Pve shouldve been just (practice mode) and itwouldve solved everything. Tarkov has it too. They have a seperate server lobby for it so people do what they want. Spawn bosses. Make bosses disappear. Mob count. Difficulty etc

I dont think anyone will cash in on the pve mode. Why.... the only people who will play this dont even play dark and darker in the first place.they wouldve played an actual pve game

[jolly leaf]

For me the PvE mode shouldn't be more than a training ground. Here's how it should be imo :

• A 3x3 map with at least one boss room
• FoW, Randomized dungeon
• You can only drop gear with a slightly lower drop rate than normal, the gear dropped in PvE mode can only be used there and you can only use gear found in this mode. Maybe setup something with the Squire, a PvE Gearset
• 3-4 people in solo, 2-3 team in duo, 2 team in trio (For server cost, can't open a server for one team)
• The boss room can't be open from the outside after the fight start (So the first team to reach it have a fair try)
• Not sure about this one but, always one floor (to minimize server cost). If you choose PvE mode in Forgotten castle you randomly get Ruins, Crypt or Inferno. Need to figure out something for Ice cavern

[jolly leaf]

Exactly, we all joined DaD because it was unique, a PvPvE game like nobody did. And now they're spliting that in two thing that other game already do and probably better than what IM will make

Imo, everything's here to make the game better. Focus on the dungeon, make it a place where you can both be satisfied as PvP and PvE player, make it so it's not too random, with tool and cool in dungeon thing to find your way. And Listen to what people suggest, want or not and test it in a more accessible environnement (improved test server)

• First listen more and test thing, make the test server more attractive https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/591702/incentivize-using-the-test-server-by-rewarding-and-including-players
• Second, work on "in dungeon" content, new point of interest, new purpose. Hard and easy so people who want the Dungeon crawler aspect of the game can chill and those who want to go deeper or PvP can look for the more important point of interest https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/554235/dark-and-darkers-content-problem
• And finally, I like the Fow of war and Random dungeon, but it need improvement so it's less rough and work with those new content/point of interest https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/620767/improve-continuous-dungeon-instead-of-reimplementing-the-circle

[barren grove]

Make a shrine that reveals a n area in a 3x3

Put it in the new modules iron mace added

[jolly leaf]

Look at the third suggestion, there is some really cool idea to make FoW more enjoyable (Especially in the comment with a couple upvote)

[barren grove]

https://tenor.com/view/superb-idea-superb-idea-cat-thumbs-up-cat-gif-18270110337435478324

Forget it all. Give barb a windlass

Also give rogue crossbow mastery

[jolly leaf]

Double jump, Thumble, SPEAR Rogue

[barren grove]

Wait rework tumble i swear no matter what u do u still get hit doing it. Why is it so bad

[jolly leaf]

It scale on action speed, the more you have the fastest you thumble, And I think you even go further. Maybe it should scale more

[barren grove]

Make it so tumble becomes at crouching distance so its harder to get hit or increase tumble speed

It should scale with move speed instead

[jolly leaf]

Yeah, but honestly it's only balancing there's is thing so much more important... I'm really starting to lose hope about the dev. A PvE mode with exclusive content... While all we need is content in the dungeon, work on that, add things to do in the dungeon

The Expressman : Put him in a random room in the dungeon and your need to go there to give him stuff to extract.
Fishing : https://youtu.be/eusNKWKROfg nothing to add.
A forge : It does the same thing that the Goldsmith but you can get the max roll of a stat and it cost only the gem (That mean you need to bring your gear and gem in the dungeon and take the risk to lose it)
A gem Hoard: Like a gold Hoard but with a higher gem drop rate, put them only behind the Key room so people actually use them

PvP player would gather around important point of interest while PvE player would have thing to explore and do if they want to chill in the dungeon and have a little adventure

It's heart breaking to watch them taking bad decision and making the same mistake over and over again

[astral reef]

Really hoping this gets more attention
https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/623549/add-the-menu-brightness-setting-back-as-a-seperate-option

[jolly leaf]

Yeah that would be nice, I upvoted it already

[lilac garden]

make all skins more buff when barbarian equips it

[elfin onyx]

[jolly leaf]

I want a old lizard and cat when I equip them on wizard xD

[jolly leaf]

Someone told me SDF talked a bit more of the PvE mode on some streamer's chat... (That's terrible, especially after they said they'll try to improve at comunicating and try not to spread information a bit everywhere). And it seems he said they plan on making exclusive content for this PvE mode... We didn't had PvE content for the longest time in the Dungeon, the gameplay loop is the same since the early access release and now there talking on not improving it but making new content for a different game mode. They're really spliting the game in two instead on working on making a good PvPvE game

[icy knot]

It's the same thing
Enhance Class Distinction Across Races

[icy knot]

Certain damage types could cause enemies to bleed, with bandages stopping the bleeding sooner. However, this would require splitting damage types into categories such as blunt, slash, and pierce. What do you think.

[winter idol]

I really like the idea of enriching martial combat and seperating weapons by more than just dps. Hiwever If you would apply things like bleed or maybe concussion effect for blunt weapons simply by damage type on every attack, that would get hella cheotic. You would probably need to implement things like status resistances and it would get massivly complicated.

What if instead they would rework just certain attacks of weapons. Like most twohanded weapons have rm attacks that nobody uses. Have those slow attacks apply a status fitting for the weapon. For weapons that dont have a rm attack you could pack those effects on the last attack in the chain, encouraging you to actually go through with your combo and giving enemies a Window to play around. Like "i can trade one or two blows but i need to get out before the third attack hits me or i bleed out." You could balance this much better because it would give ways to avoid and counterplay those "powerattacks" kinda like playing against longsword reposte. I would love to see something like that.

[icy knot]

In terms of mechanic I think bleed should tick every 2-5 seconds and would require small nerf to pierce and slash damage

[winter idol]

Like i said i wouldnt tie it to damage types nessessarily. I would go for special weapon attacks. This is the one thing that makes longsword such a beloved weapon regardless if it was strong by stats or weak. People cried when it was bad, but they played it nonetheless because it had this unique combat enhancing special attack. Many people want more weapons to have a reposte for that reason, i don't. I want more weapons to have a special attack LIKE reposte but different. Make melee weapons distinct. This would reduce the Stat checking meta and would make people choose weapons by preference and not just by dps potential.

[fluid hare]

Teaming in any lobby should be bannable, no exceptions...
the fact that people are running around in NORM solos lobbies with teams of 3 and four... because they are too scared to queue in trios like wtf...this game is turning into trash!

[jolly leaf]

I like this idea, it would be worth testing something like that

[icy knot]

+1

Maybe bleeding could slowly reduce Recoverable Health instead of Health.

[jolly leaf]

That's a good idea. Too bad they never read us

[icy knot]

😅

@keen onyx @full tulip @dawn grotto Give us a sign

[jolly leaf]

That's it i've decide that i'll be bitter now xD

Earing that they planned on making this PvE mode more than just a training ground, that they plan on adding exclusive content to it instead of working on the actual Dungeon. That really make me lose hope for the futur of the game. Even if they achieve their goal to get more player thx to that I feel like it won't be the same game anymore. That they dropped working on making the base game better, making a good PvPvE Dungeon crawler extraction experience

We've all made so many very good suggestion, constructive criticism, giving feedback. But they never listen, never learn of their mistake. I'll keep doing it because I don't want to see this game die, I do deeply love it

[jolly leaf]

In case they actually read that :

• What to do to make the future of the game better and more steady #suggestion-discussion message
  (You know at some point you'll have to make the test server work, you've said it in the Tavern Table)

• How the PvE mode should be, and nothing more #game-discussion message

[icy knot]

Imagine having 3 or 5 guys just sitting in suggestion-discussion channel for months, pitching good ideas and not reading them.

[jolly leaf]

We should be paid, or at least have role as consultant

[icy knot]

I think we are the most dedicated players in the entire player base who want to help.

[jolly leaf]

and they /ignore us. They have the tool to make this game a real gem and they don't use them

[icy knot]

Indeed, as an unemployed data scientist who loves this game, I would see this as an absolute win.

[forest berry]

i know you guys are discussing something else at the moment but i have feedback for @keen onyx @full tulip @dawn grotto Arenas should not have named items , or any personal gear , instead it should be specific "arena" pieces that you can mix match however you want. Arenas in general in all games and in general perspective is strictly PvP that is focused on skill and teamwork and not gear, so why would someone with "better gear" have an advantage since getting better gear is partially luck (drop chance) and less skill. Also whats the point of having PvE in Arenas since they dont offer anything except for a warlock who uses that to heal ..... (another unfair advantage like the gear) or something like that. Also i get it balancing classes is difficult and there are different aspects of balance in PvP vs PvE but what is the benefit to have the same classes in Arena present even at randoms

does anyone else agree with this or am i the only one that sees this ?

[sand zodiac]

Absolutely hate this idea, as bleeding SHOULD tick actual health not recoverable health (like if you were poisoned), so I'm glad yall aren't getting paid for these suggestions lmao but I like the idea of bleed

[jolly leaf]

Because the game is meant to be PvPvE and even tho Arena is the "PvP mode" they want don't want to make it a purely PvP mode, they want it to still be linked to PvE, to the Dungeon and I think that's a good thing.

[forest berry]

i get that or at least i get the idea i just dont see any benefit in Arena specifically, i see only negatives , it would make sense if there was no advantage to like 1-2 classes over the others

[jolly leaf]

But there isn't really? And anyway that's would be a matter of balancing nothing to do with arena itself or how it work

[icy knot]

Thanks for feedback, we need more people here to discuss things. Don’t you think that allowing bleeding to affect actual health might be too strong? It could potentially undermine the rogue class identity.

[jolly leaf]

Also I feel like player on this game should let go of the "competitive" aspect of this game, everyone won't be able to compet against sweats and people who can put time in the game. People need to make piece with what rank they have, or don't try to reach the top, I know it's unfair because there is reward based on your rank and that's why I was happy with the AP change recently, now even people who don't tryhard can reach the top rank with time and effort. That's what the game should be about, longtime objective you have 3 month to complete even if you don't play too much instead of tryharding to reach a competitive rank @forest berry

[meager jasper]

The AP change is great yeah. Even as a sweat my opinion has always been that a critical mass of sweats makes any game unfun and we should be catering to those who wont grind for a hundred hours every season.

[jolly leaf]

At least on this topic xD

[forest berry]

no question about that, all games should be played for fun and not tryharding unless you do it for a job i guess (streamer, esports pro etc) which in that instance it might make more sense , but my concern is primarly with fairness or balance (call it whatever you want) over tryharding , i dont mind if the person putting in 1000 hours is better than the person putting in 10hours that is logical and it makes sense , i mind when a person regardless of hours has an advantage because they have access to specific items or because they play a specific class or specific build

[jolly leaf]

Yes I agree with that, even if the person who don't play that much is as skilled as the guys with 1k hours, he may not have the same gear and lose because of that. But I feel like it would be wrong or go against the nature of the game to make Arena a mode purely PvP, totally split from the main game mode. I hear what you say but I think it's a "necessary evil" (?). The game should be build around the dungeon, if it was all me Arena wouldn't even be a thing.

[sand zodiac]

Good question: but given the improvements made to rogue, I think they'd be fine. I main rogue and have played since/before the all character health buff, and can say that, if we weren't dead on arrival then, we wouldn't be even if bleed was added. More so, limiting which weapons actually proc bleed or cause bleed, would make it that much MORE beneficial to rogues—i.e. daggers cause bleed, maces do not, etc, etc. Looking at other games for inspiration, just because a weapon can make you bleed, doesn't mean it should proc bleed (look to bleed effects in weapons in games like Dark Souls or Elden Ring for example, as they seem to have a pretty good understanding that bleed shouldn't proc off just one or two hits of a weapon, but instead have its own multiplier and proc bar).

[sand zodiac]

If you wanted to make something limit recoverable health, I think a de-buff like "curse of pain" or something following the "curse" line of thought would fit more in line with functionality and character design—i.e once cursed, your health recovery is hindered by _% factoring into separate categories for either magical healing or physical healing (like a variation of the goblin mage debuff, but improved to allow for some, albeit lesser so, healing)

[meager jasper]

Yep. The correct and nuanced take. We all want the sensation of getting better, but if I can just gear chwck any newbie the game becomes terrible for everyone eventually.

[icy knot]

Agreed

[jolly leaf]

But does that really happen in arena? I mean there's a point you're stuck at some rank, if you don't have decent gear or skill, and you should fight against people with roughly the same skill and gear. Also the game work on season, within the 3 month of a season even newbie if they really pursue that goal can make a couple decent kit no?

[meager jasper]

I dont play arena so honestly? It would be disingenuous to speak about its balance.

[jolly leaf]

Fair

[winter idol]

The truth is, there are two ways to play this game. Sweaty pvp focused action and almost rpg like slow paced dungeon crawling. And imo both ways have there right to exist. Many people enjoy and play both depending on there mood. The problem is, it always feels bad if you encounter someone in the dungeon that wants to play the other kind of way as you. It feels bad for both players. That's why I like there idea of separating the game modes. Also I totally see it as a big problem that this game has so many experienced sweats that make it very hard for less experienced players to enjoy the game. Especially in current hr. That's why I always was a fan of skill based matchmaking. I know that alot of people hate on sbmm for good reasons, but that's mainly because it is designed bad in so many games and many people cant even imagine it working as intended. I truly believe that almost everyone that plays this game at least in theory enjoys it's unique blend of pvp and pve. The problem is that right know pvp means certain death and loss of all progress and investment to half of the player base. There are people running around killing half the lobby in norms and hr alike. This means one person has the fun of its life while 6 other people just got unlucky to be matched with a sweat lord that they clearly have no chance against. That's why people are begging for a pve mode. Not because they dislike pvp in general but because pvp is just majorely unfair and unwinnable from their perspective. That's also why so many people play below 24. Because it atleast cuts the chance of being outgeared. And also because not loosing anything is pretty comforting if seeing an other player means certain loss of your investment. I don't judge them for not wanting to invest in gear.

[alpine violet]

multiples of the same classes in arena is sooooo cancer. REMOVE IT PLEASE!

[mellow frigate]

real, just let people play the way they want instead of saying it will ruin the game. Everyone is okay with sweats running around chasing down people who just want a slow dungeon crawling experience, so why can't PvE enjoyers have their fun?

[winter idol]

To give a little bit more perspective: when I started playing this game a long time ago, I had real player interactions in every other game. People weren't necessarily talking more (I play eu) but there where so many interactions with people helping out if they saw you struggeling with a miniboss, people faking friendliness and stabbing you in the back once you turned it to them. People sharing campfires and just goofing around. Encountering players in the dungeon could always go both ways. It was glorious. It was what hooked me onto this game and i never really got over it.
I can't remember the last time I had a real player interaction. The last time I shared a campfire. I would cry tears of joy If I would get betrayed and stabbed in the back once again, because that would mean that there was someone actually willing to interact. Nowadays people either avoid contact or try to kill you on sight. There is no in-between. And I truly believe this is caused by the lack of sbmm. People deeply feel the need to get better at pvp to stand a chance, so they jump every player they see. Also they fear that missing the drop on someone potentially more skilled then them will cause certain death.

[slow arch]

give bard a song that does dmg in a cone infront of the instrument

[digital forge]

add blocking mage hand with spear back in revert the druid dream walk change bc it only promotes rat jumping and give us more time in dungeons

[winter idol]

1. I never said anything will ruin the game.
2. I explicitly said that I'm NOT ok with sweats running around chasing down dungeon crawlers.
3. I totally want pve enjoyers to have there fun. There is probably no one that is more on board with that. I just think that should be possible in some form of the "normal" game, and not in a separate mode. And that's not because a pve mode would be bad on itself, it's because the community is too small and the devs are too inexperienced to handle even more gamemodes. They didn't manage to handle norms and hr from the beginning. Implementing Arena was already far to much for them and now implementing another additional gamemode, regardless if its pve or whatever else, is just flat out madness imo. If these devs would show more competence in balancing, content creation and problem-solving, I would be all for it. But they aren't. They are overwhelmed by simple things like making dual wield a functioning combat style. They struggle with things like move speed difference. They take forever to develope something like the expressman, just to screw it completely eventually. A pve mode is just to much for them.

[slow arch]

give wizard a movement ability

[jolly leaf]

I totally agree with you and I share most of what you're saying. Indeed people behavior is kinda horrible now, but I believe it's because Ironmace catered around those player, if they'd choosed to keep in the way of what they tried with the Frost wyvern, or increasing the TTK, (again but) working on PvE content (who would most certainly benefit to PvP player too) I think the community we'll have now would be very different and closer to what it used to be. It's not too late to do that imo, they shouldn't cater to sweats. Honestly I don't think they'll leave the game anyway and it would make the game more enjoyable for new player / attract new people and keep them on the game. I still don't believe that splitting the game is the way, adding a tutorial, a training ground, working on making the Rookie lobby better and be more clear on how they work, obviously using a mix of GBMM and SBMM (but that require more player so it won't be possible soon), Adjusting the loot rate/loot table of normal and HR, potentially adjust them for each GS bracket so experienced player don't go in -24 or 25-124 to farm boss because they don't drop troll pelt or key for exemple.

[jolly leaf]

Your 3rd point is pretty much exactly how I feel about this PvE mode

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[winter idol]

Yeah that would be the way

[grim dirge]

no rage bait in the suggestion channel please!

[barren grove]

Rework gearscore brackets. Make normals 0-200 and anything above should be highroller. Keep the 24 queue

Double the value of all treasure in game to make a replacement for bad economy

[white cargo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/s/zbSzp9FzEH

some ideas for the other named items that we haven’t got yet

[worthy cosmos]

my suggestion is stop locking races behind red shards because I don't feel like giving this game my money again

[winter idol]

Don't do it then xD I mean they habe to make a living off something xD

[jolly leaf]

NO! They should starve and live in the street, working on the game in cyber cafe or by stealing the electricity of their neighbor. And they should at least make Blue shard skin with the same stat that Red Shard skin... oh wait

The only 2 skin we can only buy with red shard and don't have a copy for blue shard are were Skin exclusive to quest

[lilac garden]

make illusory work only when you hit a spell on an enemy target

[icy knot]

Will Warlock's Weakness ever work with mobs and bosses' new damage reductions?

[abstract bone]

it does work. mobs take 20% reduced damage from warlocks.

[slow arch]

give bard a song that does dmg in a cone infront of the instrument

[alpine violet]

how about we get rid of the mobs in Arena???? let us actually just fight....

[old sluice]

When they said they were gonna release arena I pictured it would be like a colosseum with two doors that would open on both ends then the teams would run out and fight to the death, while people can spectate in the stands.

[naive thicket]

Raise marketplace limit to 200k or something. Trying to get unique gems is a nightmare rn

[jolly leaf]

Or remove the trading post and let the limit to 50k so price do go stupidly high

[tired stirrup]

@sdf BRO, WIPE IS ABOUT 1 WEEK AWAY, YOU STILL HAVE TIME TO EXTRACT ALL THAT KIMCHIN NOODLE SOUP FROM YOUR BRAIN AND REVERT THE CHANGES YOU MADE BRAH, I PAYED YOU 30 BUCKYS TO PLAY WITH CACAINE AND HAKKERS NOT TO PEW PEW POINTLESSLY IN THIS FOG OF WAR CRAPPY STUFF, DON'T CROSS THE LINE BRO!!!! IM WARNING YA!

[jolly leaf]

I listed several suggestion who are, I think, essential to the game right now

• First listen more and test thing, make the test server more attractive https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/591702/incentivize-using-the-test-server-by-rewarding-and-including-players
• Second, work on "in dungeon" content, new point of interest, new purpose. Hard and easy so people who want the Dungeon crawler aspect of the game can chill and those who want to go deeper or PvP can look for the more important point of interest https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/554235/dark-and-darkers-content-problem and a couple more idea #suggestion-discussion message
• And finally, I like the Fow of war and Random dungeon, but it need improvement so it's less rough and work with those new content/point of interest https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/620767/improve-continuous-dungeon-instead-of-reimplementing-the-circle

Imo, everything's here. Focus on the dungeon, make it a place where you can both be satisfied as PvP and PvE player instead of spliting it in several game mode, make it so it's not too random, with tool and cool in dungeon thing to find your way. And Listen to what people suggest, want or not and test it in a more accessible environnement (improved test server)

[slow arch]

monk when?

[normal robin]

PvE mode is going to destroy the game for alot of players and here's why. Me and my friend group all have over 1k hours, we like to pvp, but we feel like we're in the bottom of the barrel when we fight we tend to lose like 95% of the time. We all have jobs and can't no life the game, we don't have bis, and when we do it's gear fear because of our loss rate. PvE mode will destroy this game for us, because the 5% we do have a chance of overcoming, won't be in the dungeon anymore. Pve mode should either not give gear, or the drops should be majorly nerfed. But we do like the gear brackets and arena, the way everything is set up currently has been so refreshing and it's the reason we all started playing again. It allows less skilled players to actually be able to play pvp without getting completely overran every game. But the pve mode will get rid of us and less skilled players like us, because either they will be run over in pvp mode until they quit, or will grind pve mode until they quit. Then you will only have the tryhard no-lifes left, and when that becomes every fight, they could get bored and quit too. This pve mode, the way I've been hearing is going to be, will ruin the game.

[meager jasper]

Pve and arena are both huge mistakes. They detract and compete with the core experience in big ways.

This whole meta where nobody is playing the core game because they're running uniques in arena is utterly stupid. They should not be encouraging it.

[winter idol]

Well it's last week of the wipe. It doesn't really matter right.

[meager jasper]

I mean we get a lesser version of it every weekend. It's already split the playerbase and made it so nobody actually gambles with gear.

This "event" is just them showing how out of touch they are with what they're doing to the game in a more extreme way.

[winter idol]

I think it's good that the acknowledge the troubles of pvp and think about new ways of on-boarding players, but pve mode just isn't a good solution. I mean new players can learn pve. Great. And after that? They still have to go into pvp mode if they want to progress further and will get their as handed there. The right solution would be a skill based matchmaking imo.

[meager jasper]

I'm opposed to sbmm in the extreme. And doing that is encouraging them to indulge in more pointless meta-level game changes. The core game is fine, and no further onboarding is needed. More content is needed in game.

[winter idol]

I dont think the core game is not fine for the majority of the player base. The core idea is good and should be advanced instead of making new gamemodes. But getting matched against sweats just because you actually want to play the gear that this game is about is a certain death sentence to a lot of players. Even in normals there are so many sweats running around killing timmies. That's not a good experience.

[meager jasper]

So? I dont want a game where im matched only with sweats because of success. That punishes you for being good. The gbmm and betting system is enough and I thought that when I was new too.

Friction is not a bad thing by the way

[half pewter]

The Mage currently lacks arcane, ice, and electric spells. Arcane magic - invisibility, arrows, 2 shields and a lock on the door, clearly missing some kind of massive combat spell. Ice magic - shield and Ice bolt, we recall that we have ice mastery, which only works on ice bolt, lacks some kind of wall like the druid and frost skill, which deals ice damage (almost all classes have such a skill for weapon damage, but not the magician, it is not logical). With electric magic, everything is simpler - 2 different lightning bolts, as if you can make melee damage skill instead of frosty (if there is an imbalance with ice mastery). By the way, when will the crystal weapon perks and memory bonus lamps stop being useless?

[icy knot]

What if Arena exists just to create a good MMR system that serves as the core of skill-based matchmaking in the dungeon?

[jolly leaf]

I think like that too. Imo a good way to make the experience whole but less rough for new player so they have better chance to stick to the game would be to work on this Tutorial map they talked about, allow it only for people in the Rookie lobby. Improve that system too, because we don't know how it work, when we're still in it or not, we can't quit it if we want too etc. And finally i'm not 100% against a "PvE mode" if it's built as a Training ground, where gear you found and can use there is totaly separated of the actual Dungeon. Something like that would be perfect imo

"How do you see this PvE mode? I personally don't think it's a good idea, but hey they're doing it anyway so let's start making suggestion.

Here's how I see it :

• A 3x3 map with at least one boss room
• FoW, Randomized dungeon
• You can only drop gear with a slightly lower drop rate than normal, the gear dropped in PvE mode can only be used there and you can only use gear found in this mode. Maybe setup something with the Squire, a PvE Gearset
• 3-4 people in solo, 2-3 team in duo, 2 team in trio (For server cost, can't open a server for one team)
• The boss room can't be open from the outside after the fight start (So the first team to reach it have a fair try)
• Not sure about this one but, always one floor (to minimize server cost). If you choose PvE mode in Forgotten castle you randomly get Ruins, Crypt or Inferno. Need to figure out something for Ice cavern

Any feedback? Other idea?"

[winter idol]

Had that thought too xD we'll see what happens if they dialed it out for arena. Even if that isn't there plan, they could still transfer it to the dungeons afterwards.

[winter idol]

Well it's not just complete beginners. This game is really skill dependent and a lot of people like @normal robin don't have the time to put 8 hours a day into 'getting gud'. A game after all should be fun to everyone that enjoys the concept of it. To say 'the game is fine' basically means 'I had to get gud to have fun, now I want to be the one going rampant.'

It's also the people at the top, that amass hoards of gold because they don't die frequently and therefor screwing the marketplace economy. Imo not having a sbmm is the root evil of alot of the problems this game has to deal with.

[barren grove]

do a late wipe event where trader reputation is all maxxed out and everything is 1 gold coin

[winter idol]

.

[jolly leaf]

Ty

[jolly leaf]

I really hope we won't be able to farm crafting material/boss loot in the PvE mode. I heard of a new tag on item linked to it, "Tradeable" and "Non-Tradeable". Hopefully that mean that you can only use the loot you drop (Crafting stuff included) only for you, your quest and craft gear. Crafted gear with PvE mode material should also be Non-Tradeable otherwise it'll have a huge impact on the Main game

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[icy knot]

From a basic balance perspective, wouldn't it be wise to nerf or rework a playstyle that the majority of the player base considers overpowered, rather than allowing such an unfair dungeon experience to continue, potentially driving players to quit?

Wouldn't it be better if one thing were weak so that five others could thrive(live)?

[winter idol]

Talking about b hop or?

[winter idol]

Forgot to pin you xD

[icy knot]

nah

[jolly leaf]

Guess what? I have suggestion for that too xD

• Landmine rogue Rework https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/563627/rogue-rework-suggestion-master-of-poisons (in the comment too)

• Change how Warlock heal work https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/564808/rework-of-warlocks-healing-mechanic (Was a biggest issues back then, but it's still one or two buff away to be broken again)

[icy knot]

Zen is about to tell all casual players to get better at the game.

[meager jasper]

I agree in concept but what you're suggesting actively waters down the point of the game. In my opinion all you can do is assure everyone has reasonable access to gear, for cheap. You absolutely should not prevent people's skill paying off if you want players to actually stick around.

At a certain point that's the game. If you're not interested in the long term looting and pvpve loop then you shouldnt be playing the game.

All you will do is remove the reason to engage by making top tier play insufferable by implementing that sort of mmr. And that, by the way, is closer to the hard-mmr rank system we used to have, and indeed people gamed it because demigod matches were ridiculously dangerous sweatfests.

[icy knot]

Give Illusory’s Invisibility to Ceremonial Staff
Hear me out. Wouldn't it be better if Illusory's Invisibility passive was given to the Ceremonial Staff instead? This way, it would make healers safer rather than making damage dealers overpowered.

here <-

[jagged flicker]

Occultist Boots shouldn't weigh almost as much as plateboots for base speed- they're technically slower than heavy boots. .w.

plate is 2, occult is 3, heavy is 4

[icy knot]

Why in Goblin Caves Troll room is always next to the Cyclops room?

[jolly leaf]

Yeah, Occultist boots used to be 6MS it was way too god and as usual they nerfed it too hard but this time never reverted it. I think 4 would be enough with maybe a Copper version or something (Frostlight would be too strong imo)

[winter idol]

I want to give my opinion on your three arguments.

1. Skill should pay off.
   In general I totally agree. The question is HOW it should pay off. Skill should totaly pay off from things like pve and quests. If you can do bosses consistently, if you know where big chests are, if you can handle pve quickly and without getting damage, you'll get good loot far quicker than someone that has less Skill. But if you mean Skill should pay off in the amount of kills you get per death, I disagree. Because this payoff in fun for you would be build on the dead corpses of multiple people that you basically robbed of their fun. If there is no sbmm, the more Skill you aquire, the more people you kill per death ... the more costs your fun the overall playerbase. And that's not a good concept.

2. You should play the game only if you are interested in the pvpve loop.
   Exactly. Without sbmm there is no pvpve loop for the majority of the playerbase. There is a pve loop randomly terminated once in a while by encountering another player. What I want is make the pvpve loop accessible for players of all skill levels, not just the top. You know because that's what makes this game so great.

3. Sbmm would make top tier play insufferable.
   I disagree. Currently low tier play is insufferable and top tier play is Hella fun. Sbmm would even that out for all to have a comparable amount of fun. So what your calling insufferable is not even close to what low tier play is right now. Doesn't seem very fair to me.

Also the AP ranking system we had was not even close to a sbmm. There was a rough correlation to player Skill do to the time investment needed but that's about it. Ap ranking was based on pve only and had nothing to do with pvp Skill. Also a good sbmm system should never give rewards for reaching higher ranks. It's a balancing mechanism, not a battle pass.

[meager jasper]

Currently low tier play is insufferable and top tier play is Hella fun
You seem to live in a completely different universe to me. HR is an unfun nightmare of hyper risk and no guard rails, with re-added mechanics that only exist to inconvenience you into fighting other players instead of looting the actual dungeon, and arena is valueless unless you want to waste time repeatedly farming a pointless number with nothing to do with the rest of the game, even ignoring its current condition with named uniques that are so overpowering it's pointless to play with anything else.

The most fun in HR I've had since they ruined it has just been repeatedly running frost caves, and going straight down as a sorc, because sorc can walk over anything in that place with resistances, and literally nobody goes there, so it's free AP. I shouldn't be incentivized to do that with extreme gear-value losses on every match I want to play HR, it's ridiculous. That's always going to be the real disincentive for all players to risk their kits. The false scarcity of gear that IM insist on keeping intact.

Every time they have ever allowed a lot more gear into the game, the result has been unanimous praise. And the game still needs more to do, more to get, and most importantly, more of it to go around.

That's really how you'll help out the newbies. Let them play with kits without fearing their loss.

Real kits. Not <24s.

[jolly leaf]

"But that's not HarDCoRE, let's add the Swarm back and remove the Goblin recovery!" (Without noticing everyone of course)

[winter idol]

I totally agree on that but that's a whole other topic.

[meager jasper]

I see them as very interlinked. You want to help out the newbies, I'm saying the best way to do that is gear. Not some sort of forced matchmaking where I'm forced into even more hostile situations.

More gear helps everyone. More content helps everyone because it gives people more to do with less competition for it.

[jolly leaf]

^

[meager jasper]

Take for example frost cave. The whole map is essentially useless except for the wolves and the gold pile. That's three modules, and everyone knows where they are and what their value is.

Randomized dungeons helps a little with that competition but it's not the root problem. The fact of the matter is most newbies are forced to flounder around in a monster-dense place with essentially no meaningful loot, while the good players simply guarantee they'll not be taking anything of value because there's so few points of relevance.

What's on the Ruins level of the Castle maps? Two bosses with essentially no loot. It's essentially only used for pvp or for questing, and only then, briefly.

[jolly leaf]

Is there still a couple Ore in Ruins or not anymore? I believe in the old middle room the square. But that's not really enough anyway

[meager jasper]

There's a decent amount of rubysilver, but it doesn't spawn reliably. The old middle still has one guaranteed one I believe, but again, nowadays are you willing to go to HR to try and mine it, knowing you have to run a 224 kit minimum?

[winter idol]

Well I would take more content over a better matchmaking that's for sure. But eventually we need both imo they are continuously working on a sbmm for arena so it's not really the question what to prioritize. It's more of a general question if a sbmm would be good for the base game or not.

[meager jasper]

At best you'll bring a complete nothing burner kit, which is incentivizing playing the game wrongly basically.

[winter idol]

There's also a chance of ruby in the zombie cave module and in the skelly mage cave module with the big stones. But yeah it's not compelling at all

[meager jasper]

Rubysilver should not be difficult to mine. Nor should gold or froststone. Newbies should be allowed to get it specifically because it gives them goals to work towards in getting kits of their own.

[jolly leaf]

Yep, because you know that if you see someone he'll hard rush you and probably have min maxed crafter kit. Because there's nothing more to do than that for PvP player in Ruin. While a PvP point of interest would fix that

[meager jasper]

I remember when the game actually had a decent, healthy amount of mining and I will never get why they decided to remove it.

People should be able to run HR repeatedly, in kits that are at a mimimum level of functionality. That's what condition I'd like to see the game in.

[jolly leaf]

I'm not sure about that, those Ore allow you to craft some "mid/end game" gear (not the best but really good gear) But it should have other Point of interest, who allow to craft less important thing (Like flower and Iron for exemple), things that allow you to make decent amount of gold

[winter idol]

On that note I think it's also dumb that every piece of craftable gear either requires you to slay very hard monsters (bosses, inferno minibosses) or to mine (imo mining can be fun, but it's just a side activity, basically keeping you from actually playing the game). There should be mich more crsftables from random monsters that you want to slay anyway. Let us craft goblin armor, zombieweapons and bone necklaces. They don't have to be bis. Just something worth taking.

[meager jasper]

The way I see it, all that purple-grade gear is at best HR-fodder for 224< and 225+. Some of it is wildly build-definingly op compared to everything else, and needs a nerf, but it should be all accessible, because making it that way lets people actually have a decent amount of gear.

The crafting in this game is incredibly stingy.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah, i'd like that too honestly, you'r right on that. Rubysilver, frostone and gold could be a mid- lew end game Ore with one or 2 new ore that you find exclusively behind end game Point of interest (boss, key, a new type of event) to craft even better gear, some legendary maybe even a couple unique piece

[meager jasper]

I don't want crafting to be wildly op, I want it to be a reliable source of gear for everybody

And yeah, I hate that most of it is locked behind bosses. Most of which need some sort of guide to defeat because they're mechanically completely disengaged from normal gameplay.

[winter idol]

Totally agree.

[jolly leaf]

Also I believe crafted gear should give more gearscore than basic gear. A purple crafted helmet is better than a normal purple helmet, it should give more gearscore

[jolly leaf]

Yes. That would be great, and it's only one kind of point of interest, they have so much possibility. I really like the fishing idea Ryan6dayaweek come up with, low end farming point of interest who allow you to get buff to loot middle/high end more easily. https://youtu.be/eusNKWKROfg

[meager jasper]

Mm. Depends. I'd expect if I got my way they'd need to be toned down anyway

A gold helmet isn't better than a regular helmet, tbh. A frost-stone one definitely is.

If the rider effect was suitably small it wouldn't matter much.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah, honestly if they nerf gear globaly to increase TTK, making crafted gear better wouldn't be that much of an issues. Right now it's too strong but only because gear is already too strong overall

[meager jasper]

I'd rather they weren't straight upgrades over normal gear, but some kind of sidegrade.

[jolly leaf]

What do you mean by that? I don't know what sidegrade mean (English not my first language)

[meager jasper]

Take wolf hunter leggings. They're widely considered incredible for certain classes, but a lot of that is just scarcity. They're not strictly the best for all classes. They do give up certain things for other things.

[meager jasper]

Not downgrade or upgrade. But something balanced near normal gear that's unique.

[jolly leaf]

Ok ok ty

[meager jasper]

Cloth pants and loose trousers are very similar to a lot of classes, they're side-grades depending on what you want.

[jolly leaf]

So make crafted gear unique piece with stat you don't get on other item instead of a variant of a loose trouser for exemple?

[meager jasper]

Like froststone could actually come with a movement penalty because it's cold or something, in exchange for getting something cool.

[winter idol]

On that note I think they should rethink how bosses work in this game. Like most bosses take a billion runs to learn (wich is unfun) and once you learned to dodge every single attack there is basically no difficulty anymore. Lich and ghostking are imo the best bosses, because they rely on simple, somewhat interesting unique mechanics rather that just a bazillion different attacks that oneshot you. They are fun to fight (even tho they could also see alot of improvements) fighting troll or cyclops or spectral is just the question of how often you died to them really. I want bosses to be a compelling goal to search for for everyone, not just a free lootpile gatekept for people that endured the suffering of learning them.

[meager jasper]

Yeah I generally agree. I will say, I often find ghostking's jump to be... a bit jank. Might be sync issues though.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah clearly the fact most boss are hard only because they one shot you and after you learned them they're not a threat or not fun anymore is terrible design

[meager jasper]

The boss design is informed in big part because they guard important loot. I do think they should be way less cheap.

One that's often forgotten because it's old now is troll. Troll is such a trash fight, he just randomly either goes for your head or your feat, and 50% of the time you just die if you trigger that move, so the way to fight him involves cheesing him in such a way so he never does that. Cyclops meanwhile, though he has nothing of value, is a much better fight. It's just positioning, and he's got one funky eye-beam attack.

[winter idol]

Fe you could make a lot of craftable gear that gives pve advantages like damage resist against goblin poison, resist against ice slow effect or the classic undead bonus damage type of stuff. That wouldn't make it op but it would be a nice sidegrade.

[jolly leaf]

And Cyclops don't always one shot you, unless you take the big hit

[meager jasper]

Yeah that's a good idea.

Especially with all the resistances and stuff being added to mobs.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah we know they can tweak a lot of resistance now

[meager jasper]

Maybe froststone stuff deals ice-based physical damage. (ie it can't be gamed to get extra +magic damage unless it's actually a frost-stone c-sword or something, but it just converts whatever weapon damage it dealt into ice)

[winter idol]

Good idea

[meager jasper]

And of course armor could be very frost resistant. Which makes it interesting in pvp but not hugely op. There's a couple of spells with ice.

There's no class that uses only frost, so it wouldn't ruin anyone's day completely.

[jolly leaf]

But it have to be Base stat (the white one on gear) If they add resistance to each damage type as random attribute it'll flood other stat and gear will become to hard to find with the good stat/gemming will become a nescessity

[meager jasper]

Yeah I don't think they should add resistances as enchants. I'd rather it was tailored to specific bits of gear, like maybe base plate having lightning weakness instead of magic for instance.

[jolly leaf]

Yep

Too bad they never read us

[meager jasper]

[jolly leaf]

Seriously the game could be so insane xD The game how I picture it in my mind is incredible

[meager jasper]

Also, while we're talking about crafting. The base idea that every single piece of gear needs to include the previous tier's gear, is a huge problem with it.

You should not need a blue plate to craft a rubysilver cuirass, it makes no sense and it just supresses the gear economy.

[jolly leaf]

Yeah that's bad, it inflate the price of some random gear piece

[meager jasper]

It's a huge problem with the idea of actually letting people make enough gear for themselves, because if they're going through a zero to hero scenario, they're going to be putting resources into exactly one piece of gear, that statistically at some point they are going to lose. Silver gear is actually some of the only gear I like, but having to sacrifice a specific type of sword for a silver longsword of the tier I want instead of just more silver/another resource for a higher tier, is pointless.

And I also think it's a big part of the reason why few people actually craft a lot of gear.

They get plenty of rubysilver to sell. But to all but a few people willing to buy other bits of gear to sacrifice, there's just not that much reason to do it. Most of the time it's a loss of profit to make a bit of gear as opposed to just selling the raw resource and buying something similarly powerful.

With the resistances though you could encourage people to build different kits, essentially just with their own effort, for different dungeons.

[jolly leaf]

But they're adding a PvE mode and reverted HR to Swarm + No goblin....

I shouldn't doom but it's really too much lately. I don't know what more we can do, how can we be listened to. By dev and by player, I feel like people stopped thinking about the game too, they're shortsighted, want fast fix instead of looking at the whole picture and fix thing on the long term

[icy knot]

flower armor for magical healing 🤣

[winter idol]

Why not xD

[icy knot]

Fish scale armor

[jolly leaf]

+50% swim speed on the water map

[winter idol]

I really like the concept of silver weapons. You just need to collect silver, a green weapon from the merchant and boom you made yourself a weapon that is also just a blue longsword for pvp, but for a lot of the pve it's actually legendary by stats. That's the kind of sidegrades I'm talking about. And you don't need to slay bosses or do a sideactivity like mining. It's really the most satisfying craftable in the game.

[icy knot]

I was talking before about restricting marketplace a bit and came up with this suggestion: Quests to Unlock More Marketplace Listings Now I'm thinking what about a trade that is open 24/7 should it also be limited or maybe removed?

[viscid hollow]

Can we make chests for rare? Id like to have it like zelda where clearing a module of mobs would spawn a chest with good loot. With an abundance of chest it feels so repetitive opening a chest and looking at its contents for 4 miliseconds before realizing its not worth it and moving on, especially with market place and or highroller its very rare ill open chests for any loot besides golden, coffins, bossroom loot etc

[jolly leaf]

I was jokingly answering to someone they should remove the Trading post and let the limit to 50k in the marketplace so price don't inflate so much. But it could be a good idea, what do you think about that?

[languid thorn]

imagine wondering why this game gows lower and lower

• water map not on wipe update
• guild halls not on update
• aquebus not on update
• monk not on unpdate
  HAHHA What a joke

might aswell not even wipe at that point

• wipe content = balance patch
  

[icy knot]

could be.

I bet people would trade in the dungeon

@keen onyx It always annoyed me that goblin archers have so much HP

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[hollow estuary]

i don't care about those updates, i just want a fun gameplay loop (not fun right now with FoW and random dungeons) with acceptably balanced gameplay (definitely not: true damage panther, kite warlock with curses, and every other class with more than 103% movespeed that can make huge mistakes and just walk away after it)

I lock a rogue in a room, he's so done and dead that he might as well disconnect from the game

wait nevermind, he just double jumped out of the room onto a wall, or alternative scenario: he has true damage and pdr and can just stat check me

the class meta for atleast rogue has shifted from a sneaky class that HAS to be smart to get a kill and dies in 3 hits, to having a bunch of bis gear and being able to hold the left mouse button to win any fight, it's crazy how much stats ruin the game

[languid thorn]

well that is called having fking content, this game has no content

[barren grove]

i have been saying we need new weapons for ages

like add cobalt weapons etc why not

make craftable arrows. silver arrows cobalt bolts etc

[languid thorn]

new weapons
full quest rework - make them reward UNLOCK - crafts, item buy but 0 items rewards aka do this unlock this epic fine cuirass craft or unlock 5 fine cuirass availability in shop

more items to loot - leatherworking, blackmsithing, jewlcrafting, enchanting, religious, whatever
disenchanting - gives enchantment used against PVE
dismantle - gives mats / gems

more maps
more items
make armor look different based on quality

Pole Axe (with hammer side and spike tip) - Pole Hammer (With Spike side and spike tip) - part1san spear - Billhook

One Hand Axe - HEAVY one hand AXE (with hammer side and spike tip)

Executioner - Great Sword - Estoc - Falx
B.stard Sword - Scimitar - Messer - Short One Hand Spear
Eveningstar

Kite Shield
Targe Shield
Allow short sword to be used in main hand

REMOVE WEAPONS MASTERY

• Allow all physical weapons by default

• Slayer should give access to Recurve Bow

• Ban all daggers, all magical weapons, all bows and windlass

REWORK THE FKING FLANGED MACE ANIMATION

Remove True DMG - True DMG will never be balanced, since the faster the weapons or depending on scaling it is always broken. Adding on top that there is SOO much armor penetration in the game at the moment. True DMG ruins the balance.

Remove +ALL from the game. Having 1 single stat that give you EVERYTHING is not balanced. Renders any other trinket without +ALL useless.
Remove +ALL from ability. Same argument. PPL just stack plus all on everything.

VICTORY STRIKE REWORK:
Victory strike should be 15% phys power +15% armor pen for 8 seconds, if you get a kill it grants 25% heal on kill once

[hollow estuary]

this game has content: 3 maps, norms and HR dungeons, tons of gear and weapon options, 10 classes, 2 dungeon levels for ice cavern, 3 dungeon levels for ruins, troll, cyclops, lich, banshee, wyvern, etc, arena, and a bunch of perks and skills for every class
another map and a new class/weapon is only fun for 1 wipe, then becomes regular gameplay

if you rely on content being one time things, you're quickly gonna need a dev team of 50 people to constantly add new empty content which players only enjoy a few times before it gets boring

[kindred cave]

Where can I report a user for distributing hacks?

[jolly leaf]

That's not what I call new content. For me content is "in dungeon" stuff, point of interest, things to do in the dungeon. Things like that
The Expressman : Put him in a random room in the dungeon and your need to go there to give him stuff to extract.
Fishing : https://youtu.be/eusNKWKROfg nothing to add.
A forge : It does the same thing that the Goldsmith but you can get the max roll of a stat and it cost only the gem (That mean you need to bring your gear and gem in the dungeon and take the risk to lose it)
A gem Hoard: Like a gold Hoard but with a higher gem drop rate, put them only behind the Key room so people actually use them

Or https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/554235/dark-and-darkers-content-problem

[barren grove]

oh yeah. make keys a vendored item

but make them expensive anyways. their price needs to be stable

[languid thorn]

please read the above

also, how abut

Armor crate
weapon crate
gold chest
gem, key, heal chest
loot chest

all from vendors or craftable

THERE ARE SOO MANY THINGS TO ADD

[barren grove]

add a hell level to goblin caves and it should be spider nest

[languid thorn]

available to craft or to buy ONLY AFTER A questline

[hollow estuary]

i would call that a new game mechanic, which is the correct way to add content

[jolly leaf]

That's why they need on working to improve the gameplay loop. New map, class and weapon are cool but if the gameplay loop is still the same you're just doing the same thing in a new map and with new weapon who'll eventually become normal/bboring too

[languid thorn]

idk man, look at what tarkov achieved, good pvp while also making content content content.

they just added a new questline with a new location

[hollow estuary]

yeah, i imagine how mind-numbingly boring PvE will be because gameplay outside of pvp and bosses is boring as shit
you're basically given infinite time to learn crazy parry tech on mobs

[barren grove]

make the crystal sword have a block that reflects magic damage

[hollow estuary]

tarkov has events that they add near the end of wipe, i bet so many people would want something like that in this game

[jolly leaf]

Even bosses become boring eventually. Most boss have poor design, it's "Dodge everything or get one shot" but when you've learned everything they're not fun/not a threat anymore. Lich or GK for example are a bit better because they don't one shot you with every attack and have cool attack pattern

[languid thorn]

that content questing, looting, pve + pvp all are divided 25% each and can be focused exclusively by each player based on their desire
oh wanna pve only in a pvp server? sure, oh new encounter pvp

here The dungeon is an obstacle instead of the feature, which makes no sense
the devs treat the game like a competitive shooter in my eyes
@hollow estuary
also, imo all leaderboards should be removed, it drives the game in the wrong direction
all rewards should be achievable all the time any time, with static achievements / quests

[hollow estuary]

tarkov also has better PvE because the loot from killing a scav is more interesting than a goblin dropping 10 gold and a goblin ear, the PvE is also harder and more spread out

if you put a blindfold over my eyes, i could parry most mobs and kill them

[hollow estuary]

PvE is not fun after 100 hours of gameplay

[languid thorn]

it baffels me the y flip flop in balance and treat the game in a competitive maner instead of just making content

yeah also the PVE thing should be totally locked PVE mode full game featured, not this jank Epic item locked so ppl can trade to go in pvp

pve players WILL NOT! go pvp 95% of them
i have many friends i teached them tarkov pve not 1 switched with me

[languid thorn]

yeah cause is not rewarding, if i kill 100 skelly maybe i should damn get something decent at minumum, in tarkov you have that.
scavs, have tiers and loot tiers, some can have GIGA expensive shit, but will you take the time to open 100 of them?
here you get what, 5 gold XD

in tarkov for mee pve is not "fun" either, right after 2.000 hours, ofcourse is not, but what is fun is what they COULD have

oh man, i wish we had the "ledx / red keycard" experience here for more of players but noo LOCK IT DOWN LOCK IT DOWN not HARDCORE ENOUGH 100 more runs no! 1000 more runs to get that named item XD

[hollow estuary]

PvE is actually so pathetic in this game, you can't just throw 10 goblins in a module and think that players are gonna be engaged
at most it's annoying when you are chasing a player and have to kill mobs

[languid thorn]

it is, i know, is not cool to kill them when the most efficient thing is to cheese them
is sad, that s also part of the combat being so bad
from melee, range, magic

comparing this to chiv2 / mordhau whould be a disrespect imo

the game has becom, oh we have this dungeon thing that hold me from rushing a player
at that point remove dungeons and make
Call of DaD team deathmatch

i love pvp, but it has to be 1 of of the 4 other equally important experience of the game, with the option to hyper focuse EACH one separately

[jolly leaf]

But it's not the point too imo. I like this combat system, i don't want to play mordhau

[languid thorn]

yes and no, too simple and is just what we got, impossible to balance jank left click 0 brain

too mordhau and i know i would NEVER want mordhau here due to it being way way too hard

hell, i can t believe ppl still complain about LS
when i was playing LS nobody would

and i dropped it soon after seeing what a cope weapon it is, even if i was decent at it or good i guess

[jolly leaf]

better stagger system, better blocking a few more parade. That's enough imo

[languid thorn]

what if we don t change much this system
BUT
we add weapon collision and weapon folding / handling mechanic,
what i mean?
you have a spear
i you are near a wall you "fold" your hands and point the spear up since, no space, right?

this is what i mean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoViPGGL-iQ
have the weapons do this
@jolly leaf

[vestal pine]

does the goblin merch still send your gear bgack??

[jolly leaf]

Not in High Roller. Yes it's bad.

[elfin onyx]

watched it, its 44 seconds also the vid was made like 3 years ago

[jolly leaf]

Yeah on I see. And you shouldn't be able to attack in thus stence then? I'm not sure I like that, I get it would add realism and make fight more complex but there is way to mush tiny space, corridor etc in the game imp it'll just be very frustrating and punishing.

But it could be interesting to try something like make shield tangible all the time. Meaning if he's he your back it'll block a hit or an arrow coming from behind. But it would probably do thing very weird when in hand but not in blocking stance. Maybe make weapon more tangible like if two weapon touch each other while swinging it could block and stagger like a parry would do

I'm really not sure it'll be a good thing but it would be worth it to test it

[keen sundial]

Can we get a bar fight simulator? No weapons. Just fist and beer in the tavern

[jolly leaf]

@winter idol @icy knot @meager jasper Just watched the Tavern Table. I'm a bit reassured about the PvE mode, it look like they really see it as a Training ground for new player, or a testing ground for new PvE feature with the intent to add it in the Dungeon. Still think it's a waste of time and could have been done through a Tutorial + efficient Rookie lobby, as i'm pretty sure some people will never move from PvE to the dungeon or will leave the game even after learning PvE because the PvP is a totally different world.

Unfortunately not a work on the Swarm, seems like it'll stay. Not a word on adding improvement to FoW and Randomized which is sad

[static hare]

^agreed seperating the player base even more could be very damaging

people already only play arena

[jolly leaf]

That's what i've been saying since before they announced the PvE mode, when I understood they'll do ut anyway I suggested a way to do it who won't hurt the main game too much and was limited enough so people don't play that only. #game-discussion message
What they announced is kinda close to that, or could tend to become that with peoples feedback so it's not as horrible as it could have been (Still prefer my version tho)

[grizzled jay]

Anyone knowI I can use the LFG properly

[merry folio]

As a suggestion I suggest understanding your community better.. as an example why do tavern table with someone who barely plays or understands your game? I would suggest looking at the content creators that actually keep people in the community.

[elfin onyx]

This WIPE MAINTENANCE IS EXPECTED TO START AT 3 PM KST ON APRIL 10, 2025. These are the changes they have teased so far:

Adventure Mode

• New PvE mode called "Adventure Mode"
• PvE mode will be a separate queue where you can use the same character as PvPvE mode
• You can acquire gear and quest items in PvE
• You'll run into other players in PvE mode but you won't be able to kill them. They're going to try to prevent griefing
• PvE mode is trios only
• PvE mode will have random matchmaking and you can choose not to fill if you want
• PvE mode will have no GS limits
• All bosses should be available in PvE mode

Gameplay Changes

• EXPRESSMAN IS BACK
• New merchant which will be unique from the function of existing merchants
• New quests and quest types.
• 12 weeks of quest drops. So groups of quests will drop once a week until a few weeks before end of wipe
• New crafted items: Tome of Sheol - crafted book
• New monsters: Abomination and Cerberus - they look like bosses
• They mentioned potentially overhauling all the existing monsters with new models / animations (?)
• Potential solo queue arena (?) They're considering varied arena game modes from week to week
• Merging 24 and 124 normal modes into 1
• Normal mode will have up to epic gear from chests and mobs, and up to legendary gear from bosses. They state it should be more rewarding than before in terms of drops because players can enter with up to 124 GS in all normal lobbies
• No tavern / gathering hall / guild hall this wipe
• No Water Map this wipe

High Roller Changes

• Changing 224 HR mode to allow entry with 0 gearscore.
• 224 HR can no longer drop artifacts, but will drop more uniques
• 225+ HR will drop more artifacts than before
• HR Boss loot will be increased
• In HR the bosses will not always be there - you have to craft boss keys from materials gathered from subbosses to spawn in the bosses
• Weekly leaderboards are being added to HR
• HR will still have the classic AP grind for seasona

Thanks kball for the list❤️

[winter idol]

Well at least they put some sort into that^^

I think over all they mentioned a few interesting changes in the right direction bit nothing really that seems to solve any of the pressing issues we discussed.

Take the boss summoning feature they want to add. In Geral I think this could go a long way in implementing a gameplay loop because as I understand it you can't just farm bosses every round anymore, you basically have to go in, farm the mats to craft the summoning item from minibosses, get out, craft it, go back in, find the boss and kill it. So the gameplay loop now involves two steps which is double of what we had, which is good I think. On the other hand it just doubles down of the problem with bossing and fow+circle in HR and I think it will be a pain to actually play it out in the dungeons when they don't implement some of the boss finding mechanics we discussed ...

Same with the new brackets. Being able to run HR zero to hero again is a good thing imo, but we still can't play any type of gear sets in norms. Unifying the normal brackets won't change anything imo and you're still kept at 124 which isn't even enough to run a green kit, so they still force you to go into hr if you want to progress in form of gear.

Idk. It all seems half baked again, but maybe half baked in the right direction.

[winter idol]

Thank you mister warden^^

[icy knot]

How about not giving new merchant to free to play players.

[civic shard]

What's the issue with f2p players?
They already can't do he and get the actual good loot

[jolly leaf]

How about not giving them the new quest or only the 5-6 first week

[icy knot]

Who cares about good loot when HR experience is just worse than normal mode. I regret buying this game

[civic shard]

HR is better than normal though ?
Plus the shared stash tab and having more than 1 character is huge

[jolly leaf]

I don't think it is, bit anymore with the Swarm, random portal and no more Recovery goblin at all. We'll see next season if the improvement of the "Reward" side of HR is good enough to make that much randomness and frustration worth it

[civic shard]

I mean we are getting expressman back so he'll make it better for getting out with good loot even if you die

[icy knot]

I play only 1 character for 2 years. Shared stash is bad for the game.

[icy knot]

Expressman is only for HR?

[jolly leaf]

Same as you, I like the Boss summoning feature. Would have liked something around key, I really like the Gem hoard behind key door idea i've shared. There is good intent to work on PvE they just don't take the good path for that, it's better still not good tho but we're used to terrible so it's reassuring to see them at least take a better path

[winter idol]

Yeah tbh I do not expect them to nail anything on release anymore. I'm just happy they are looking in the right direction and have at least some of the big problems on their agenda

[jolly leaf]

Did they say it'll be HR only? I heard them saying he's coming back + we're increasing drop rate of Normal, that + PvE Mode I guess HR will be pretty empty, especially the 124-225 most people like as sweats will go in 225+ for artifact. But sure it'll help a bit in HR too, should have never removed it. Better even should have make hime a npc to find in the dungeon, so it's not that free and add a point of interest to look for in the dungeon

[jolly leaf]

Yep, now they need to put their glass on and start reading us to get the feedback and idea the game deserve

[civic shard]

No idea of he is HR only. But it just means you can find nice gear/loot in HR and take it out safely

[winter idol]

They should implement boss summoning in norms too. Would give you something to do if gear still isn't a thing in norms. It would fit even more without circle and if you want to train bosses you can go pve mode

[jolly leaf]

Yes, it'll make HR better for sure. Still HR is worst than Normal due to Swarm, no recovery at all (it could only let you buy a couple item back, would be better than nothing but harder than normal), random portal too

[jolly leaf]

I bet that's for every gamemode. Even PvE mode (which make boss harder to train as you can't just spam the boss fight, but less contested as everyone would have rushed the boss room every game figthing the boss with 10 player every round in PvE mode

[winter idol]

True

[jolly leaf]

Now you'll have to play 15-30 min before you can try the troll and get stomped first pattern xD Each time.

Also they said "We'll increase loot rate in Norm and HR because they're harder than PvE mode" that's afraid me a bit. They said that for gear PvE mode will be worst than Norm, but what about Wolf pelt, Troll pelt etc? Is the old Norms drop rate applied and Norms drop increased? Or does that get nerf too in PvE mode? Because if it's not nerfed in PvE mode people will farm there, even tho drop rate are better in Norm/HR imo

[civic shard]

Should be nerfed.
Graysun was in the tavern earlier and said it'd be really inefficient to try and farm these things from pve mode. So we will see I suppose

[jolly leaf]

Ok thx, i'll read that later

Oh just got an idea. You know we talked about a "revealing shrine" that clear some part of your map, like a couple module around you. What if it was a Channeling Shrine? You need to stay on it, it's very slow and expend the revealing zone on your map, making the map around you clear. If you wait long enough you can reveal all the map, but if you found it in a corner it'll take more time than in the middle room.

[jolly leaf]

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[winter idol]

Cool idea in general, but that could give you a massive advantage over others tepending only on luck of where you spawn. So maybe let there be a audible sign all over the map when someone activates it and all people get a continuous ping on the map.

But I don't really like the idea of a shrine revealing the fog around you. That kinda just takes away the exploring aspect and also you could just check by walking to a door. I much more like the idea of a shrine that reveals points of interest like bossrooms. That way it would spare you the random search while still keeping the exploration on the way.

[slow arch]

if you gonna keep b hop out of the game add more skill expression ability's in the game for other classes there is only 4 classes in the game atm that have this 2xjump rogue druid animal changes ranger back step sorc electric dash

[jolly leaf]

Just don't put it in a specific module, make it replace a randomly other shrine

[winter idol]

Wouldn't really change much tbh

[jolly leaf]

I missed the end of your message. Yes of course a Shrine who show PoI would be better

[torpid fjord]

let us move inventory stuff while sitting and rotating items in inventory

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[meager jasper]

Wow, so pve is, as expected, a complete nothingburger that no one will play.

trios only
rare gear lootable only
epic from bosses

The absolute state of these devs.

It seems like they're actually adding this mode to replace <24s, which is getting removed. Which is stupid. Because we have <24s, and people like it.

If I was an under <24 player I would be pissed right now. You're replacing their mode with something with less reward and no pvp. The default game mode will now be <124s and this will be a glorified tutorial.

And again, IM is completely wasting time adding a mode nobody with any brain cells should want in this game, diluting it, and the matchmaking pools - when they specifically did not put the dev time into the things people actually want to see. IE the new map. Or... any new content.

Additionally, they have once again dropped the loot in normals down to epic-grade, legendaries from bosses. They literally have not learned the lesson patch 69 should have taught them that we generally want more loot, and the game is better that way.

[mellow frigate]

I'm pretty sure it will be the most popular mode

[frail hazel]

The lesson from patch 69 isn’t that we want more loot its that we want loot to matter, if good loot doesn’t do anything then there’s no point. If good loot is easy to access theres some point but not much reward from finding good loot

[meager jasper]

We'll see. As ever I'll give it a chance, but to be honest, none of these changes were necessary or desirable. They should be focusing on content, period.

[wide kite]

It feels like they aren’t playing their own game

[quiet aspen]

fix the fucking audio dude. this is getting ridiculous.

[mellow frigate]

you're wearing your headset backwards again

[icy knot]

⬆️

[pine shoal]

any way they can reactivate the Religion....wouold be nice to have it before the next wipe, something to do...

[jolly leaf]

The wipe is April 10th, it's in one week

[pine shoal]

i know, i was saying that would be nice to continue having religion until the end of the wipe, then we can grind and fight for getting the 200k gold skin

[jolly leaf]

Yeah it could have stayed open until the 7th like arena. At least

[pine shoal]

yes would been nice having something to do other than arena

[normal robin]

does anyone know why my group is not gaining ap?

we just started playing again a couple weeks ago and wanted to grind HR

[regal frigate]

Please dont copy paste mobs in to the game. In my opinion the new fat mob dont fit here.

[abstract bone]

it fits perfectly as a sub boss in inferno.

[nocturne forge]

season already ended my boy,

[elfin onyx]

april 10th is when wipe happens around 2am est, expect it take like 9 hours so go to bed instead of waiting for it if i was you

[blissful crane]

I'd wager half the community would love to have a true solo adventure through the dungeons and against the bosses....without other players trying to kill them.

[last escarp]

Please give wizard one base kit clarity pot

[fast wigeon]

then magic classes would just have unlimited clarity pots

[fast wigeon]

that is what pve mode is for is it not

[slow arch]

bring back b hop

[icy knot]

Make Dungeon Recovery more likely to return self-found items.

[queen harbor]

Oooh, I like that

[summer plover]

in the future pve mode can we ave no time limit for crawl and chill in the dongeon for learn more all mecanic

[lilac garden]

buckler perk for rogue and ranger

[jolly leaf]

I wonder if doing something similar with the Expressman would be good? Like you can only give him not "Found by" item. That mean that between each floor you can give him what you found in the floor but if you killed someone with a good kit you can't give it to the Expressman, you need to either leave or go down and keep it in your inventory.

I see some side effect to that, don't know if it's good or not. It would make first floor where people mostly fight. And I had another one but I forgot xD

[last escarp]

ok and you still have to sit for it and it would be a grey so it would only be 8 sec and the econemy for claritys is riduclous it can change

[fast wigeon]

clarity stacks with campfires tho I think it's just too much, just place a campfire if you can't afford clarities

[icy knot]

• play with fees(0 fees for self-found)
• make him lose gear like goblin using %(bad idea)
  ...

[jolly leaf]

Yeah why not, that's an other solution

[last escarp]

you do not always have time for a campfire its not about affording them its about helping spellcasters with a very out of date mechaic compared to the newer casters i.e warlock and sorc

[icy knot]

But doesn't have any huge in-game impact. Or does it?

[icy knot]

They could give expressman more inventory space for legendary accounts only

[languid thorn]

REMOVE TRADING AND MARKET

Removing Trading especially ensures a harder way for R@M@T to exist
Removing Market makes the entire item pool worth something
Add "inventory" tracker to monitor what players bring in game in case of R@M@T and PERMA! BAN! BOTH!

Necessity if market is remove?
Full rework of vendors and questlines to provide all tiers of rarity for items and to make all items variants available from trader (basic ones)

To unlock certain rarity Tiers you should complete quests to "unlock" rarities.
right now you can only see what, 1 epic item? how about complete a quest to unlock all / certain items for epic tier for plates from armorer vendor

Vendors should have each item available and all rarities with 5+ avg quantity of each item
This can't be posted because it contains content blocked by this server. This may also be viewed by server owners.

You can double the amount of armors available by making example Fine cuirass have 5 + quantity via Gold and 5 + more available via Barters (and no it should not cost you a gold chest for that barter, it should be quality expensive as the gold price)

[icy knot]

Items getting weaker when traded wouldn't be so bad, as some people might think.

Almost every item has some variation in base stats—for example, a white longsword can have 40–42 weapon damage. What if trading an item would reduce it's base stat? In 42-damage longsword case it should get reduced to 41 or 40. 40-damage longsword wouldn't get weaker. This would ensure there is no 42 damage longsword on the marketplace. This would make dungeon crawling a little bit more worth, rather than relying on the marketplace 24/7.

I forgot about people getting killed, so I guess when an item would transition from self-found to handled, its base stat should be lowered.

[faint dirge]

Nahh

[languid thorn]

lol no please what the actual fk is even that logic, are you ok?

[icy knot]

sry my bad. We should remove any trade possible and make copy of tarkov

[meager jasper]

Its another suggestion that involves moving the meta of the game in some way rather than making new content so im against it on principle at this point

I still want them to go back to non swarm hr and add goblin

And then stop doing pointless stuff of course and make real stuff

[jolly leaf]

Why Swarm is bad -> #suggestion-discussion message

The real stuff -> #suggestion-discussion message

Still didn't figured a good PvP Point of Interest other than very important module like Boss room etc. But there's no module with a objective really linked to PvP and that could reward it, I don't know maybe a module where you can bring the soul heart of one or several ennemy to open a special door with loot behind it who's better with more Heart, like with more than 4 ennemy heart you have the Marvelous you found behind Skull key door or Ice door (So with a chance of artefact)

[meager jasper]

I dont think pvp needs to be more encouraged than it is.

But I understand that is a matter of preference

My reasoning being that pvp already comes with massive rewards potentially - and any site rewarding pvp runs the risk of being empty and unused because coordination like that isnt reliable.

While its the actual core of pve and its reward loop I think that's lacking. Right now its really only bosses and a select few farmable mobs and piles, and that's it for complexity.

I think broadly the pvp in this game is good already. And any qualms I have with it are more about class design being unfun to deal with, individually.

[jolly leaf]

Yes but what I fear, is to see PvP player, instead of gathering somewhere, split at each PvE Point of Interest tto farm player who don't really want to PvP and are here to farm the dungeon. While a interesting PvP module might be interesting enough to make PvP player look for it and fight here

Because some (most?) PvP player in reallity like to PvP as long as they're running down Timmies xD

[meager jasper]

That's the game.

[jolly leaf]

But of course what the game need most right now is PvE Point of Interest :

For me there is easy one.
The Expressman : Put him in a random room in the dungeon and your need to go there to give him stuff to extract.
Fishing : https://youtu.be/eusNKWKROfg nothing to add.
A forge : It does the same thing that the Goldsmith but you can get the max roll of a stat and it cost only the gem (That mean you need to bring your gear and gem in the dungeon and take the risk to lose it)
A gem Hoard: Like a gold Hoard but with a higher gem drop rate, put them only behind the Key room so people actually use them

Other good idea : https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/554235/dark-and-darkers-content-problem

[meager jasper]

More points means less predictability though. The last thing I want is to make it so pvp is actively discouraged.

[jolly leaf]

I won't say that. That's what the game became after so long without PvE content/backdash on cool PvE thing (like the wyvern).
I strongly believe with the good PvE change and if IM stick to it they can manage to change the playerbase mindset or gather new player with people who're not such animal as soon as they see another player

[jolly leaf]

Because this ^ Is what make new player leave the game the most imo. Being run down everygame by min maxed player who stay in low GS lobby only to kill timmies.

But anyway, start by doing PvE content and then we'll adjust xD

[jagged horizon]

get rid of fog of war it makes bossing impossible with random dungeons, get rid of the idea of summoning the boss with a token is kinda stupid as well and fix the balancing of the game with the characters. Game is melee focus so rangers and caster just get destroyed everytime.

[jolly leaf]

If you're up to hearing suggestion on that, I believe you're wrong on FoW and Random dungeon. And the summoning we didn't even see it in action yet

[jagged horizon]

Well we are all allowed to have our own opinion. I have 8k hours in this game and FoW is making it impossible to boss.

[jolly leaf]

Yes, I agree but that doesn't mean the good solution is to remove it.
For exemple you should get the map of people you kill, maybe increase the discovery range or link it to a stat, like Ressourcefulness or Memory capacity, and most importantly I think it need a special item that you can only found in the dungeon. Like the scrap of a map or a compass who show an exit and the boss room on your map for exemple. You could drop them with a high drop rate on the Skeleton corpse you find on the ground pretty much everywhere (like it's an adventurer who start drawing a map and died) or with a lower drop rate on regular Skeleton monster.
Or the totem in the loot room below a slain boss should upon activation reveal the location of the second boss. If both bosses are slain, the shrine should reveal the location of the loot room.

They could allow teammate to share map too or ping thing on the map for other

Most of this come from me talking with other people on how to improve FoW and Random dungeon. This suggestion isn't from me but I posted most of the idea in the comment https://darkanddarker.featureupvote.com/suggestions/620767/improve-continuous-dungeon-instead-of-reimplementing-the-circle

[jagged horizon]

thats an idea

[jolly leaf]

Ty I believe it's always good (when the feature doesn't have only bad side) to try to think on how to improve something instead of wanted it to be removed directly.

But we can agree that IM did implement FoW and Random dungeon poorly. They should have tried things like the suggestion I just made while it was still only on Crypt, or maybe Crypt and Inferno and don't push it on every map in this rough state

[jagged horizon]

Struggling to find boss isnt fun. Runnning through crypts and not finding the room then going to hell and doing the same thing isnt really fun either.

[jolly leaf]

Yes and that's why you should have thing that help you find it. An other exemple could be a Shrine who can replace any other shrine and when you use it the boss room is revealed on your map. Or maybe I don't know something with the expressman? Like if you give him enough treasure/gear instead of securing it he can trade it for a map of the next floor, or a compass who show the direction of the boss. There is a lot of possibility

(Actually I really like the Expressman idea)

[jagged horizon]

👍🏻

[marsh grotto]

@bold reef

[spark sonnet]

can you buff bard, it should not lose to pdr rogue? why are the damage % so low on the class? you giga buff battle cleric, which now does more damage than as being a healer. Your balancing is so awful lol