suggestion-discussion

[coral merlin]

XD

[fierce relic]

''shame'' debuff to the dirty cockroaches for being seen

[arctic lagoon]

can they make a list of what they are planning on adding, im curious on whats gonna be changed

[rigid prawn]

They got a lot on their plate atm I’m sure, consider it a happy surprise when EA gets released

[chrome steppe]

give wizard a perk to deal 50% more pve damage

[granite plinth]

i think it would be cool for the wizard to be able to manipulate weapons as a skill. like be able to make a weapon float and have more reach for a x amount of time. Obv would take alot of points in the spell book

[coral merlin]

Actually manifesting a ghost sword would be cool

[left creek]

i reckon you should unlock the third at a much higher level

[lone crescent]

20?

[rancid pebble]

I think they plan to have 0 perks at 0 and then offset them, so first perk lvl 5

iirc they said half a year ago that they changed the playtests to allow faster progression for data collection, ig higher loot quality and letting people use perks earlier

[spare meadow]

Give each glass a unique double jump. Like rogue gets triple, wizard can float, swordsman gets a jet pack etc

[pure basin]

Make the magic staff shoot a projectile when you left click. Maybe could have 10 charges that can regen with meditation. Maybe even have staffs of different elements. Like frost element that slows a small amount, with a bit of damage. Holy staff that could heal for a small amount, and do a bit of damage to undead. Dark matter staff that could inflict damage over time, while also enthrall undead for a short period of time etc.

[reef spindle]

do you know any weapons with unique behaviour like:
rondel dagger with infinite combo
felling axe with reset after hitting an enemy
?

felling axe cancel his animation when you hit enemy
other weapons go through enemies

what other unique mechanics would you like to see?

[lusty tendon]

In my opinion I think shields should break after being hit with like 20 attacks

[autumn flare]

Version of goblin caves for duets plox

[patent mauve]

Orc City

[tawny python]

i could imagime with some /ability/perk you could turn some normal arrows into explosion arrow .

[granite plinth]

poison maybe, as you're dipping, oil for fire I can see, ice arrows and explosions sound more like a physical item

but we'll see

[tawny python]

dont think ice arrows belong to the game

[fierce relic]

if they do less dmg why not

[granite plinth]

oh but explosives..?

[graceful frost]

I don’t think they are a terrible idea. But they need to really limit the numbers to make it not op. Like very limited

[signal rain]

Love this idea

[lone crescent]

He means food active skill

[signal rain]

Would suck having it happen to me but also would make for some pretty intense fights if you get your shield broken down slowly and then getting the upper hand one hand with sword

[lone crescent]

Or maybe a stamina based block mechanic?

[signal rain]

Understand gotcha

[lone crescent]

Why does the wizard even needs free magics?

[signal rain]

Just sounds cool

[pure basin]

It would make use for the staff, also would be fun to use. noone likes it as is

[lone crescent]

Cool or fun doesn't mean is good for the game tho

[pure basin]

also used to kill mobs, and save spells for 10 spell wiz

[signal rain]

Plus I think wizard is going more for the support role and when sorcerer comes out that will be the magic dps so having a staff that did dmg would be a interesting kit build option

[pure basin]

you can balance it obviously, not like it needs to be broken

[lone crescent]

They just need to buff the staff in some way, having 10 free spells for me is nonsense

[pure basin]

whats nonsense about it honestly?

[lone crescent]

Even if it does 1 damage the projectile is still broken when you stack magic dmg, there's no room for a good balance

[pure basin]

its just a way to clear mobs, and break stuff. just to save spells. most people will still carry a book

[lone crescent]

Use Crystal Sword

[pure basin]

how does it stack? you either use that projectile, or your spell. spells will still be what people use for pvp

[signal rain]

Maybe not 10 spells that does seem extensive but what about like 2 spells on the fire staff that let you cast like a 10ft wall of fire as if. You threw down 2 molotoces side by side. Could use that in a support scenario to block the enemy offf and buy your team time to heal or get away. Could be similar with a ice staff or other elements

[pure basin]

that doesn't make the staff useful

[lone crescent]

Imagine you have 10 free projectiles that deals 1 damage and you have lime 15+ magic dmg on gear, they are 10 free 16dmg projectile

[pure basin]

the whole point is to make it a viable choice so people will put use to it.

[signal rain]

You gotta use it for the role the character is designed for. Could also be a alternative one maybe that does like 1 spell cast and it’s like a super fireball

[pure basin]

so ranger must be really broken to you.

[lone crescent]

Don't get me wrong, they are cool ideas but it doesn't mean cool = good

[signal rain]

Ranger Meh class fighter does everything but better

[signal rain]

You calling my fire staff idea a bad idea? ………………….🤣

[lone crescent]

The only real weakness of the Wizard is that he have limited spells, why he should have more?

[pure basin]

there is no reason the 10 projectiles will have to be broken. trust me if i get into pvp im switching to a book. if you play 10 spell wiz you pretty much just get in the way for pve most of the time. it will just give you a way to work around that.

[lone crescent]

Yes but if you use all your spells you take out the staff and have 10 more

[signal rain]

I get what your saying but I believe one of the cons of the wizard is that it’s not good for clearing pve as it’s a class orientated to support and pvp

[pure basin]

the weakness of wiz is the low health

you could literally make the projectile just for pve

[signal rain]

And limited spell use. Your supposed to be good and use them wisely time-out meditation into your movements around the dungeon

[signal rain]

Not a bad idea

[lone crescent]

How you make it just for pve? It should deal 0 dmg in pvp?

[pure basin]

yeah wont damage other players, or just do a very minimal amount to players

its not like this staff would be broken, and you are all the time dieing to a wiz bc he has a staff. its just a fun way to make it viable

some would still rather just use a crystal sword or crossbow. or is a crossbow broken too?

[signal rain]

I don’t really see a problem with it just make sure the dmg is minimal to players to the point it’s not really viable to use it over spells against players

[pure basin]

yeah you could easily balance it

[lone crescent]

The best way to balance the staff could be more magic dmg and slightly less cast time.

If you give a spell to the staff only for pve it's still trash tier, if it works for pvp too is broken

[pure basin]

so is a crossbow broken?

wiz can use crossbow. that is extra projectiles. and you can get way more bolts than 10

[lone crescent]

Wizard with crossbow it's weak cause low phys dmg and long reload time

[pure basin]

that is why you make the staff do low damage too

[lone crescent]

You can't cause wizards will stack magic dmg and make it op, plus magic res is low on every character.
If it in some ways works only for pve is still worst then any other alternative

[pure basin]

you make the damage based on weapons rarity. you just have it do less damage. so take fireball, lets say that deals 100 damage. make the one projectile do 10

it's just a matter of good balancing. you can make most concepts work if it is balanced

[lone crescent]

Fireball deals 30 direct and 10 splash

[pure basin]

just a hypothetical situation

i dont know all the stats lol. its just to say %10 of the damage as a starting point.

[lone crescent]

3? Then you have to add the staff magical power, the INT magical power and the raw magic damage and true magical dmg. Even a small number become huge with gear

[pure basin]

lets say if the wiz is down to nothing but to projectile in is staff hes in a bad situation. that is a last resort because of the low damage output

[pure basin]

that is a problem with stat balancing then. bc hes going to one shot you with zap before he even gets to a staff

[patent mauve]

1% chance for HR lobby to be Oops All Mimics

[coral merlin]

That’s what I was thinking, one of the best spells is a Small poke spell but that’s only when you get to like +50 magic dam, maybe the staff just doesn’t scale with your stats but rather with it’s own rarity, (white) 5 damage, green 6 and so on

[rugged pilot]

Why bother getting into a conversation about balance of wizard if you don't know the stats of the spells

[pure basin]

You don't need to know the exact stats to play wizard. I just need to know what stats scale well. I can tell how much damage I do from a dummy. Why would I waste my time with every stat?

[rugged pilot]

Show me where I said play wizard

[pure basin]

Dumb argument. I played a decent amount of wizard. It's my main class. I don't have to know the exact stat of each spell. That is the point.

[rugged pilot]

Sure, it just means everybody that does know the stats thinks you are a babywiz

[graceful frost]

you don't need to have the exact stats of the wizard and spells memorized just to talk about the class and potential balancing? Do you know the exact health of all the enemies? oh well looks like you can't talk about pve

you especially don't need to know the exact stats just to formulate an opinion.

[pure basin]

Ty, this guy is just a low brow

[graceful frost]

yeah. you should see him in general. the pinnacle of cringe. Steer clear.

[rugged pilot]

If I was gonna talk about balance yes sir, I used Wizard health when people complained about Crossbow Skele being too OP and oneshotting. It only oneshots if you are 80% health and without hat

[pure basin]

Oh haha a general warrior? Yeah I'm good. No need to waste my time. Ty again lmao.

[graceful frost]

I wouldn't even say general warrior. he doesn't even have points. he kinda randomly barges into other ppls discussions, says there wrong. doesn't explain why. then calls them a redditor. Its super funny

[rugged pilot]

Phantomz just hates me, spends way more time in general while reddit lawyering! But you pick your friends mang

[rugged pilot]

I speak in suggestions discussions, and occasionally barb chat and general for spam

[graceful frost]

[glacial walrus]

XD Yes. Just yes.

[obtuse lichen]

#d-and-d-suggestions message

My suggestion about magic staff

Dw every normal person hates him

What the point of knowing exact numbers if you dont know how to do basic math and what % means

Average zap user

@pure basin @lone crescent

[tawny python]

it not about dmg , since they will have other utility like slow burn dmg etc .. that would break the game . imagine frozen arrow that slow 20 % with perk that you already slow . if you get hit you will barelly move .

[lone crescent]

When you talk about balance you should consider the consequences the change will have on the class, the game and other classes too.

Cool/fun can't be the only reason. Just as example, in theory double jump is cool amd fun, in reality it completely breaks the game and the class and makes every other classes almost useless in certain situations

Or in your example @pure basin Wizard have limited spells, let's give him more.
Then i could say Barbarian is slow, let's give him a dash, then i can dash onto enemies and oneshot them, sure it's fun for barb players, but for every other classes it's just bad.

Every class weakness should be respected

[tawny python]

it does os wiz/rogue /ranger in hr

[rugged pilot]

No it doesn't

You can go on the wiki and look at the damage crossbow skele does, it is not enough to kill a wizard with a 10% Headshot reduction hat

ranger has more hp
Haven't checked rogue but likely the same story

[tawny python]

i said in hr + the one paid 100 if the skely is a nightmare it does os .

[rugged pilot]

The discussion was not about Nightmare skele

Being in HR makes nightmare more likely, but if you are in HR you shouldn't be naked wizard / default gear wizard

[tawny python]

geared or default doesnt change much with wizzard .

[rugged pilot]

The hat alone makes a massive difference

Reducing headshot damage by 25% is huge if its the difference of being 1shot at full hp or not, then add blue potion or cleric buff and its like a flat 15 damage reduction

When you give people counters to crossbow skele they then come out with random excuses like "Yeah but what if you don't notice it, or its already aggrod and shoots you through a window"

Like okay buddy you were not paying attention and got domed by a skeleton.

[tawny python]

i believe wizzard can wear leather cap and wizzard hat only . the leather cap have 7% capped in all ranks . https://darkanddarker.wiki.spellsandguns.com/Leather_Cap

[rugged pilot]

Not sure if thats the same wiki but Wiz hat definetely had reduction to headshot damage on it

so maybe incomplete. I know the mob damage is accurate and some of the weapons because somebody in here sat and did it for hours

trying to remember this dudes name but he was a legend

Definetely borked, if you peek the t3 Wizard hat it says it has 25 armor, while all the others aren't. Higher than that actually says there us -5 move speed which is not true

[obtuse lichen]

Ye i always drink potion before fighting crossbow skelly and also its always alone without any other mobs nearby

also i can just strafe 4 head

generally speaking you take ideal situation instead of the whole picture

@tawny python dont waste your time on him

He thinks that is fine when mob can take 80% of your hp with aimlock head shot

[warm spoke]

if you crouch at the right time you can dodge the shot

[obtuse lichen]

@warm spoke its impossible to do unless you know the exact timing because it has no visible animation or proper sound que
Also bolt flies 2 fast

Well you can just dodge all the attacks

But if you dont most of the attacks take 40% of your health at most
But not 80%

[autumn flare]

You are not always able to do this, sometimes you run from players or other mobs and game over bayo bayo cuz skelet 1shot you

And not everyone know all the map and every room

[lone crescent]

Well i hate crossbow enemies in every game cause they have no animation while shooting

[rugged pilot]

Its very possible and yes I don't mind an easy enemy being able to kill smoothbrains

People love to lie and say it oneshots though which it does not

[obtuse lichen]

dont talk to me weirdo

[real trellis]

There definitely needs to be an audio queue just before the crossbow skeleton fires.

[autumn flare]

It takes 96% HP from wizard

[rugged pilot]

Thats not a oneshot

[autumn flare]

In this game you are almost never on full Hp 100%

[signal rain]

Am I the only one the loved the crossbow skele. It brought the fear back to the pve. As someone who’s played since pt1 this last playtest it was finally scary again. Pt 3 and 4 I had figured out pve and they were kinda just in the way of the pvp. With the new axe, spear, and crossbow skele it brought back some of that danger they had lost

[rugged pilot]

If you are taking damage on Wizard I dunno what you are doing

[autumn flare]

XD

[rugged pilot]

Unless its in PVP, which at that point PVP is what killed you, not the skeleton

[rugged pilot]

Yeah most people liked the new harder skele's, the people that didn't were very loud ragers that think there is no way to dodge it and just die over and over

and people running naked rogue / wiz into crossbow skele

[autumn flare]

Anyway even 80% of HP is too much dmg for a common mob that's the hardest one to dodge

[rugged pilot]

Or just learn to dodge it and its 0% hp

[autumn flare]

Nah i dodge it almost everytime, probably better than you

[signal rain]

Like I will say crossbow skele ended some good runs on me. But I’m of the mind that PVE should be a actual threat. Almost comparable to other players. I think the wraith should be like a roaming problem for who ever runs into it. Like avoid fighting in that room till it’s dead cause it will just start tarrin everyone up

[rugged pilot]

Better than me but concerned about a mob doing too much damage

[autumn flare]

Just saying it's too strong compared to other mobs and for some proffesions crossbow skelet is final boss of a run

[rugged pilot]

Only if the player is bad

[autumn flare]

You got rotten brain my friend dont understand my point

[rugged pilot]

I've watched streamers die to goblin archer 8/10 of their runs because they don't know you can just HOLD crouch and never get hit

[signal rain]

I will say some classes do not have a good option for cross skele like rogue or cleric. Your kinda stuck face rushing but in those situations your option should be to avoid and go somewhere else

[autumn flare]

Ye excactly

[rugged pilot]

Yeah thats my point. You are never really FORCED to even fight a crossbow skele

The biggest reason to be "forced" is if you don't pay attention and it ambushes you, at which point gg

[autumn flare]

And my point is, you don't have that option in every run

[rugged pilot]

Almost every single run there was a way around them, if not you need to learn to evade its shots

[autumn flare]

For me when i played rogue, i was more scared of xbow skelet than of minibosses and players lol

[rugged pilot]

I'm more scared of all AI than players because players make mistakes

[signal rain]

You should be.

[rugged pilot]

Spiders are more of a concern than a 3stack chasing me, and often damage me more in a run

[autumn flare]

Idk if that was the goal

If they add some 1 sec animation to the xbow skelet shot or lower his dmg a little bit, atleast by 10 im totally fine with that mob

I mean in 3 homies party runs it's totally ok how it is but for solo players it may be a little bit too challenging for common mob

[coral merlin]

Since they added rarity’s for Lanterns, I wonder if there’s a unique that DeStealths like light orb

[obtuse lichen]

nerd argument

[compact barn]

New skellies were dope. All of them. Seeing a black variant zwei skelly go full beyblade was amazing the first and second and third time xD

[dusk olive]

its the longsword guy!!!

yeah the new skeletons were pretty cool, besides the spear one

i can dodge any enemy in the game without cheese BESIDES the spear skeleton

[dusk olive]

also why dont you have troubadour

you definitely qualify

[compact barn]

Not gonna lie had a better chance parrying the spear skeleton than I did trying to dodge it when I was playing with longsword lol. Spear skellies out there showing spear superiority even as pve. Also I'm not quite sure why I don't have troubadour xD I did apply awhile back but just let it go and didn't worry about it when nothing came of it lol

[dusk olive]

its bullshit, if you dont have a shield or a longsword you cant dodge attacks consistently

also try applying again, the staff here are usually very busy

[cedar lotus]

With the current state of armor I would love to see some more visual options for naked runs. Maybe make a slot for a 0 weight tunic with 0 armor. It would be fun to collect different tunic skins that could be worn over armor. It would also help differentiate friend vs foe.

[pure basin]

Idk why people are having troubles understanding my suggestion. It's not going to be a op spell on the staff. It's just for pve mostly. Like you said if you can understand basic math you would know that you can balance a spell to not deal too much damage. If you want to say because stats scale at higher levels that is a completely different issue. You are making the most low IQ assuming argument you can make. Listen to what people are saying, then really listen. Stop being on the offence for no reason. Makes you look ignorant af

@lone crescent

[lone crescent]

You can't change all the stats scaling just for one spell and I know that games wher pve and PvP damage are different but mostly for crowd control, not for damage, it is unnecessary hard to code

The only way to make it weak is making it true magical damage, but then you can stack +true magical damage on gear and still make it op

[pure basin]

You can indeed make the item do more pve than pvp damage. It's not super complicated, just changing how one effect functions. Then they would be able to implement this application in other ways for other things they decide to add to the game. Also what do you think about Wands then? They are talking about adding them with a substantial spell that casts from the wand.

It literally doesn't have to be broken, and it's a cool way to make use of an item that isn't up to par. I don't see the issue.

Iron mace is a great team of devs, I'd have full confidence in them balancing this kind of mechanic.

[lone crescent]

I don't see how it's worth coding for a single spell

Also what do you mean for Wands spells?

[lone crescent]

Anyway you shoot that projectile and it hits something the game should determinate who you hitted and then choose how much damage that npc should take?

Usually they do this kind of stuff in RPGs were before you shoot the game already knows who the target hits and the effect gets determined before you even use you ability

I can't recall any game like this that differentiates ability effects between mobs and players, I could be wrong tho

[pure basin]

Starsiege deadzone does it. It's really not complicated like you are making it out to be. Yes Ironmace has said they plan to add wands that cast spells, and there is a model out there farmed from data. Or they may have released the image not sure.

[olive kettle]

there already is magic resistance on pve mobs, give magic missiles low magic penetration and the other spells high

[lone crescent]

How does it works in starsiege? You deal less/more dmg depending on target?

I think Wands will just be 1 handed casting tools that will use normal spells, maybe crystal ball but for cleric.

They even "confirmed" consumable scrolls for spella as utilities

[lone crescent]

Yeah he's talking about a spells that does more damage on mobs and less on players, and he's suggesting this spell to be built in into magic stuff without taking a spell slot

[pure basin]

I heard wands will have a number of uses like a throwing knife or axe, and cast a spell instead. With starsiege it's just energy weapons deal more damage to pve, and less to actual players. Kinetic weapons deal more to players. That simple. That game is also super early in development, I think 6 months.

[obtuse lichen]

wait when did i ever said something to you

[pure basin]

Idk last night you @ me

[lone crescent]

They confirmed it? Any official source or statement?

[obtuse lichen]

argument about math was adressed to breeze

because this guy keeps barging in and saying his nerd argument every time

[pure basin]

I don't have a source. I think it was a q and a, I may have heard it from one peg in a video. I could be wrong tho, pretty sure I didn't dream this up.

[obtuse lichen]

I tagged you to have a look at my suggestion

[lone crescent]

I did translation of QnA (they never published for some reasons) and there wasn't anything about wands

[pure basin]

I'm sry bro I had a lot of people being toxic bc I made a suggestion lmao. Will be the last one I make, or I'll post, and just end it there.

[obtuse lichen]

what was your suggestion again

[lone crescent]

Nothing in Dev-QnA channel either

[lone crescent]

If you mean me i'm not being toxic, just discussing my opinions

[pure basin]

Making the staff useful by adding 10 or so projectiles to kill pve with. Maybe have a small effect on pvp but nothing big. More like a last resort if you run out of spells.

[pure basin]

Not you some others if you scroll up. You are civil, and make good conversation.

[obtuse lichen]

Not bad
But i think staff should be slower alternative to magic book but with higher damage

[lone crescent]

My point is that with magic scaling with good gear it will become too strong as a free spell

[pure basin]

I like that too. I would go for that 100%

[obtuse lichen]

What if its going to have pure damage that doesnt scales with anything

But by making it deal more damage to mobs it's actually sounds like a cleric staff

[lone crescent]

It will scale with +true magical damage

[obtuse lichen]

When did you ever see a lot of true magical damage

[pure basin]

The way stats scale now is pretty broken. But the game isn't fully developed. They will adjust it later they have said this in a q, and a.

[lone crescent]

Fair point

[obtuse lichen]

yep actually im the one who thinks that +flat damage numbers should be removed or only be available on gloves

[pure basin]

Still we are talking like half a zap with of damage or something. They will balance the stats, and they could make a staff that casts spells not as strong as your spell memory spells.

It's just a tool that would be used for pve.

[obtuse lichen]

Actually you can just use spells and meditate on the wizard i see no problem with it

[lone crescent]

A melee Goblin have 200hp, half zap is 10, it will still be trash tier

[random parrot]

Hey I played this game on steam when it was open beta I really liked it. Recently I heard what had happened, I wonder what is happening with the game and dev team

[obtuse lichen]

Arcane missiles work really well against mobs
Lawsuit

#📢community-announcements message

[pure basin]

Half a zap to players. It should three shot a small goblin, maybe 4

[obtuse lichen]

just use missiles and meditate

[pure basin]

Yes but this would be for 10 spell wizard

[obtuse lichen]

still can restore spells but really slow with G

[lone crescent]

I still don't see the point of this spell and it's usefulness, only unnecessary coding

[obtuse lichen]

Or go melee
Idk for me this game is balanced around teams idk if they should add stuff like that

[lone crescent]

Or use a crystal sword or quarterstaff.
You should still use big spells against elite mobs

[pure basin]

It will be a safer option since you can get ran up on while meditating. You will still have your spells for pvp. It's viable use for 10 spell wizard.

[obtuse lichen]

Ignite + quarterstaff works like a charm

[obtuse lichen]

i dont think it's necessary it just going to be a huge utility buff to wizard every class should have pros and cons

[pure basin]

The point is to make use of the staff. Some would prefer to use projectile as a wizard vs pve

[lone crescent]

With 10 rpojectile you could kill 2 mobs, then you have to meditate anyway

[pure basin]

Yes but you meditate with your spells ready

[lone crescent]

Staff should be balanced with more damage, then a build around staffs sacrificing casting speed, with the active skill for instant casting could be high tier

[obtuse lichen]

big fireball

[pure basin]

There are a number of ways you can go about making the staff viable. Mine is a fun way to make it useful that can be balanced.

[obtuse lichen]

Your way just gives to much utility to cleric and wizard

[lone crescent]

It doesn't need to be better or equal to spellbook, it just need to be strong enough, cause you will loot magic staffs anyway, just something to make them useful and not just garbage

[pure basin]

What utility? Pve projectiles?

[obtuse lichen]

Yes, you are increasing room clear speed for these classes

[pure basin]

Doesn't have to. It's actually a slower safer method.

[lone crescent]

Your way still makes it useless for casting, that's the problem.
No one will haver choose to loot a magic staff or to use it if the only things it gives you are some bad projectiles and is trash in everything else

[pure basin]

You bring a spell book

It can still cast spells as usual. But later on you would use it as a secondary

[obtuse lichen]

well in groups wizard usually stay behind and not helping to clear the room but by making staff deal damage to mobs it will drastically increase room clear speed for groups

[lone crescent]

A white spellbook is better then a legendary magic staff atm, that's nonsense, every staff you find is garbage both for wizard and other classes who wants to sell

[pure basin]

Meditation wizard is faster for this already. It would be for 10 spell wizard to not be useless in pve

[lone crescent]

No one will carry a staff for some projectile over a crystal sword or quarterstaff

[pure basin]

I would just to have projectile for pve

[obtuse lichen]

They idea behind 10 spell wizard to be really strong in pvp and really trash in pve

[lone crescent]

Still worst then the alternatives

[soft finch]

They definitely don't

[pure basin]

Yes it wouldn't be op for pve just to be able to do it

[obtuse lichen]

No need to buff 10 spell wizard thats your choice to use 10 spells and not be able to meditate

[lone crescent]

200hp, same as skeleton footman

[pure basin]

Doesn't have to be. Plus going to hell, and doing pve with melee as wiz is sketchy at best

[obtuse lichen]

If you want to do pve as well play with meditate thats it

[pure basin]

I guess you just can't understand my point. I will call it here. It's not productive

[lone crescent]

Magic staff shouldn't be just a pve tool, I want the weapon to be actually strong

[obtuse lichen]

i dont understand the point of making pve projectiles only for 10 spell wizard

you are creating pvp nukebomb and want to make it somewhat usable in pve

[lone crescent]

That's nothing wrong for wizard to be bad at pve, it's just a class weakness

[obtuse lichen]

Well if you want safer option you can use crossbow on the wizard

[pure basin]

I wouldn't be against making it viable to pvp too. Even with the spells. But that would be up to devs to balance

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah thats my point

[lone crescent]

Exactly, that's like a magic version of the crossbow

[soft finch]

You want the wizard to have the strong hit stick?

[soft finch]

So why not just use the crossbow

[obtuse lichen]

ideally remove bonus magic damage from the spellbook and give it to magic staff

[lone crescent]

That's what I'm saying

[soft finch]

Why?

[pure basin]

why to make meta a slow casting clunky feeling playstyle?\

[obtuse lichen]

broken english or mistypo

[obtuse lichen]

to let people decide if they want to cast slower but stronger spells or faster but weaker

[lone crescent]

Cause if you find a legendary magic staff, with amazing rolls, might as well throw it on ground cause is still worst then a white spellbook

[pure basin]

you can make the staff deal a bit more magic damage, but not take away magic damage from the spell book. that is way out there

we love our spell book. feels way better to play.

[obtuse lichen]

any reason why spellbook should keep bonus magic damage if a lot of items already give insane amount of it

[soft finch]

The staff also allows pve clear with 0 resource consumption, so you meditate less. It also gives you a option to bonk a cheeky rogue

[lone crescent]

A good suggestion someone proposed is reducing cast time of the stuff by 1/4 and rasing the magic damage by 1.5x

[pure basin]

lol you keep going to a stat balancig issue. we are talking about making the magic staff viable. this is a circle of madness

[patent mauve]

1% chance for HR lobby chests to be Oops All Mimics

[obtuse lichen]

Last time when wizard tried to bonk me he missed twice and died

[soft finch]

Neat personal experience, not relevant in an objective discussion

[obtuse lichen]

I never saw any sane person to actually use magic staff in pve

[lone crescent]

@pure basin don't you want to have a viable staff for casting?

[soft finch]

And I did, because it's really easy and having less spells ready for pvp is bad

[pure basin]

I'm wanting to make the staff viable in any way. that is why i suggested my idea

i dont want to make the spellbook bad tho. that is my favorite item in the game.

[obtuse lichen]

Normal person just buys quartestaff or crystal sword

[lone crescent]

Every weapon that casts magic should be viable at doing it

I don't even want to talk about crystal sword casting

[obtuse lichen]

Everyone likes spellbook because its the best item for wizard but it needs to be changed to actually have some choice between magic items

[soft finch]

Normal people also do runs with starter kit

[obtuse lichen]

normal people dont have 0 gold in stash

[lone crescent]

You could still use spellbook for fast casting while you could choose magic staff for power, like a melee have to choose between 1 handed and 2 handed

[pure basin]

only other one as of now that should be viable to cast spells is either staff or book.

[soft finch]

Not the point.

[obtuse lichen]

Crystal ball is actually a good choice for a mage rn as well only staff is worthless

[pure basin]

sry yes that is ok too. i want one hand crossbow with it tho

[obtuse lichen]

what are you on about only poor people do starter kit runs or loot goblins

[obtuse lichen]

🤦‍♂️

[soft finch]

Objectively false but OK man

[obtuse lichen]

why do you want ranged pve option for wizard so bad

[lone crescent]

@pure basin we have the same issue as Wizards on Barbarian, the Battle Axe is one of the worst weapon in the game but is good for PvE, do you think we like the weapon?

[pure basin]

i main wiz and barb. i did good with the battle axe in pvp

right click chop works wonders in pvp

[obtuse lichen]

why don't we remove all classes from the game and make all items available without any restrictions then

[lone crescent]

I did good too, but you must be blind to not realize the slow swing speed and bad reach, is the worst barbarian weapon, almost worthless

[soft finch]

Lmao what

[obtuse lichen]

I want mo rogue to use arming sword and ranger armor

[lone crescent]

It came came out more aggressive then what I planned lol

[pure basin]

decent reach, but is slow. barb has a big fallout there. but the francisca axe with achelies heel is busted. they cant run away

barb is supposed to be a slow heavy hitter. that is part of the charm

[lone crescent]

No sane person will use good gear when using a battle axe

[obtuse lichen]

wizard supposed to be glasscannon

[pure basin]

felling axe isnt that slow if you want a faster alternative

[lone crescent]

It's still a kinda good start cause it's strong for pve

[pure basin]

i never argued against that.

[obtuse lichen]

but you want to make him a safer option for pve

[pure basin]

well i guess im not sane, bc i went all purple with a purple battle axe. I stomped with it too

[lone crescent]

Every weapon is better then battle axe on Barbarian, maybe he only worst is war maul

You just need to see the market, you see good battle axes sold for low prices and still no one buys them

[pure basin]

that is opinion. people say the zweihander is bad i disagree. ive killed my fair share with it

[lone crescent]

The damage is high but the moveset and reach are awful

[pure basin]

you can learn to use it better, that is a thing.

[obtuse lichen]

people can just stand besides the wall against zwei and you are going to hit it

[lone crescent]

Zweihander is bad cause it hits walls, only for that reason, in a wide area is good

[pure basin]

just like warmaul. ive see a dude 3v1 as a cleric with warmaul. he did a spin while attacking, and one tapped a team lmao

[obtuse lichen]

It's only works agains noobs

[lone crescent]

Warmaul is trash on barb for slow move speed

It's meant for cleric

[pure basin]

you can learn to play certain items better. some people like different weapons that others think of as trash

[obtuse lichen]

warmaul is a meme weapon

[lone crescent]

Liking a weapon doesn't change reality

[pure basin]

i only used it once, was fun, but i didnt do well with it

[obtuse lichen]

it only works if people just mindlessy push you

[pure basin]

still there is a possibility you can find a way to make it good. maybe use it as a secondary, and swap when people are clumping.

[lone crescent]

On Barb the good weapons are double axe, felling axe, horseman axe and hatchet
Viking sword is bad cause it have no perk to buff damage

[pure basin]

bardiche was meta too

[lone crescent]

You can kill people with magic staff too, does it make it a good weapon?

[lone crescent]

Yeah Bardiche and Quarterstaff too

[pure basin]

magic staff has no scenario where its better than a book besides the fact it can break barrels. im not against making changes for weapons, but war hammer does see play, and has enjoyers. the staff doesnt

[obtuse lichen]

@lone crescent viking sword is bad because first attack is really slow and its actually shorter than it looks like

dude tell me why not #d-and-d-suggestions message

[lone crescent]

👍

[reef spindle]

max values on every time of gear

[rugged eagle]

Very helpful wiki page ty 🫡

[reef spindle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1068515318533730344/1116453755148304604/obraz.png

[reef spindle]

seems like 2 one handed weapons (or shield with a weapon) is better than 2 hander

[signal rain]

That satisfaction received from killing Some one with a maul blow to the head is more then worth its draw backs. Especially when u get em with the alt overhead combo oof just smashin em right into the floor

[patent mauve]

Big mood, also the slow from maul is so juicy, they are sticking around for the next bonk if they lived the first one.

[obtuse lichen]

<@&988703997378584596>

[cedar lotus]

Can confirm this man did indeed stomp with a purple battle axe

[pure basin]

Ty bro, ready to get back in the dungeon with you again!

[reef spindle]

okey
+2 to all have only 2 handed weapons
wiki should be updated later

[ripe prairie]

suggestion : teach the moderation team what not to do
AKA never let the 9th bullshit happen again

[ionic oxide]

It ain't their fault lol, it's just desperate fans being, desperate fans

[steep bronze]

Guys…. Tis the ninth… and still no update… My hollowed feelings fear we may not know what to do in this dire time. I sat shaken wondering if thy lord had forgotten us or worse…. Forsaken His faithful following…. So I decided to look within and ask thyself what could be going on…. Then I realized. They had not forgotten or forsaken us. They are forging the greatest game of our time. So don’t forget Brethren! HOLD THE LINE! AND PRAISE THE NINE!!!

[chrome steppe]

Ooh yeah hold that line baby

[solar falcon]

suggestion: give ranger longsword but keep the -5% melee damage reduction. rangers in dungeons in dragons and most popular fantasy examples (such as aragorn especially) have had longswords. actual medieval rangers who roamed the forests of England as law enforcement carried Swords and a bow.

with their mid tier damage reduction (if you have decent gear and chose to play aggressive over movement speed). and the damage reduction as well as zero melee perks I don't think the ranger would be stepping on the fighters toes with this Any more than the spear does, it just gives you options to play a slightly different style. it's only a better option than spear or crossbow sword combo if the person using it is fairly skilled as it requires actually getting in on melee

[patent mauve]

I like this idea

[placid canopy]

To be fair longsword in DaD is more like a greatsword

[solar falcon]

I don't wanna hear a soul tell me that it would be taking away from the fighter in any way because rangers don't have a single class specific weapon and only gets the hood and a mid tier armor.

[patent mauve]

They should let the barbarian be able to smash ores but only gets one piece from the nodes.

[solar falcon]

the etymology of sword names doesn't matter all that much but the longsword in DaD is definitely just a longsword. just two fist hilt length, blade length is about right at somewhere between 36-42" in length and it is nimble, the block animation is fantastic example. a greatsword hilt is longer usually two and a half hands or more long for more leverage and the blade heavier usually ~50" and not nearly as nimble

[solar falcon]

this is a funny suggestion but also clerics with the warmaul

[patent mauve]

It matches the, "open chests and doors? Nah son SMASH" Mentality of barbs xD

[clear mortar]

Just curious if you have any cool ideas on ranger class specific weapons, I'm trying to think of some but am stumped

[compact barn]

Longbows are Ranger specific

Also longsword on Ranger would be cool. But I'm biased cuz you said longsword so I shall support more longsword bros xD

[solar falcon]

a new Bow similar to the Mongolian horsemans bows.
aragorn, Geralt of rivia and Drizzt du'orden are the three most popular examples of fantasy rangers. aragorn uses English longbow and longsword. garalt uses longswords a hand crossbow and several traps and bombs, and drizzt is from a dungeons and dragons forgotten realms novel series and uses two short Swords and has a panther animal companion.

D&D rangers very limited support nature spells.

really there isn't much to compare to that isn't already in. it sucks that rangers share all their great and have to compete with the higher golfld earning classes for it. spear should be ranger native imo.

[solar falcon]

it is but it is also very commonly used by fighters so I ignored it

[faint onyx]

Wizards should get long swords

[compact barn]

True many use it. Still a firm believer fighters should prioritize the standard crossbow over sacrificing a perk slot for just the longbow

[faint onyx]

I like the idea of blue and purples not just having better stats but also different lengths, swing speeds and cooler skins

That way you can choose a longer slower weapon or a shorter slightly faster weapon

Within a range appropriate to the weapon of course. Maybe +-15%

[patent mauve]

I'd prefer, better modifiers for sweet spots other than different ranges.
Like 75% instead of 70% damage on non sweet spot hits kinda deal.

[solar falcon]

I just watched all your parry and repost videos today after watching your the darkest hour podcast episode. love the work Oggie and if you need a competent ranger for EA let me know, I'm going to be applying what I've learned to spear blocking

[faint onyx]

Different shaped sweet spots for different weapon skins. Different length sweet spots for different weapon lengths

[rugged eagle]

This will def be the case when fighter perks get some love so you cant justify wasting a perk slot on weapon mastery

[compact barn]

Hell yeah, glad the videos are worth watchin. That podcast was actually fun as hell to do too lol. I'll add ya when I get home or if you see this before I do feel free to add me. We'll catch some runs when they get us back in the dungeon

[solar falcon]

i sent a request until they open the dungeon back up im going to go get lost in a computer science spell casting minecraft mod.

[lone crescent]

@solar falcon Ranger has windlass crossbow, survival bow and longbow as exclusive weapons.
He already has a lot of ranged and melee options

Making spear native is not that useful cause you will still use the perk if you use a spear, otherwise better play rapier

[solar falcon]

fighters can use any of those items with one perk. quite a lot of fighters run windlass or longbow as their secondary, well actually most. also bards have survival bow as native.

[lone crescent]

Yeah I meant recurve bow actually

Fighter can use all, that's part of his class

[solar falcon]

the difference is when the things discussed are often why the fighter takes that perk. its pretty much the only reason fighters take it is to use bows or cossbows

[lone crescent]

They could give more penalty for bow if they wanna nerf ranged fighter

[solar falcon]

fighters using ranged isnt my concern. the discussion was meant to justify rangers having longsword as an option

[lone crescent]

Longsword should be fighter only imho, something similar? Why not

Ranger is still a ranged class, an elaborate moveset like block, parry and stuffs like that doesn't fit the class imho

[rigid prawn]

add a bit of length to the longsword and change it to a fighter only Bastard sword with current moveset, make a longsword that's fighter/ranger!

If balance of having parrys on ranger is a concern that is (which i think is not a big deal considering the MASSIVE risk a Ranger takes to utilize the weapon).

[narrow bane]

my suggestion is drop the freaking game its been months

[obtuse lichen]

Longsword simp

2 handed swords axes aren't meant for ranger
Only simple weapons like spear, bastard sword, hatchet should be usable on ranger
Unless its a hybrid like fighter
Ranger was learning how to shoot not how to parry and riposte after all

[obtuse lichen]

just play fighter and be happy

[rigid prawn]

Dont be afraid of change

[obtuse lichen]

im not

It's just stupid how you want to make ranged class better at melee

lest make a character that's can move really fast can shoot with bows and on top of that swing swords lol

[rigid prawn]

ranger doesnt mean ranged it means protector of the woods like a park ranger

[obtuse lichen]

look at the lore accurate rangers silly
They engage in the melee only if it's their last resort

[rigid prawn]

just because hes good with a bow doesnt mean you cant use a sword lol

[rigid prawn]

closed minded, dual wielding short swords with a pet is a ranger archtype as well

[obtuse lichen]

facepalm

[rigid prawn]

good point i retract my statement you were right

Look up Drizzt on google images you will see what im talking about

[obtuse lichen]

Dont be afraid to suggest your idea once they open it

[rigid prawn]

ive made lots, but i doubt we will see it til EA launches

[obtuse lichen]

good job

[rigid prawn]

thanks dad

[obtuse lichen]

That means you a more successful than me?

#d-and-d-suggestions message #d-and-d-suggestions message

[rigid prawn]

What are you trying to do here? You good?

im not measuring phalices here dude, pop off though!

[obtuse lichen]

I don't wanna be rude but you idea about longsword is dogshit and probably not any sane person wants to hear it
and on top of that i think it's pointless to argue with you because so far your arguments were
"it's cool" "don't be afraid of changes"
And by making some measurements i think even making some good arguments against you is just waste of the time

[real trellis]

Ranger already gets access to spear they don't need longsword too

[rigid prawn]

good way to not be rude is to not post a comment that starts with "not to be rude"

scroll up ive already made a case for it
#suggestion-discussion message

ide trade the spear for a longsword honestly but ranger is super squishy so its pretty high risk as it is

[obtuse lichen]

i dont see any real statement here

[rigid prawn]

ill rewrite it for you then

Ranger is squishy so having a parry/riposte weapon would be a high octane highrisk/highreward playstyle on the ranger

[obtuse lichen]

high casino

[rigid prawn]

i didnt even post the original suggestion though just expanded it with my bastard sword idea, i just wanna be aragorn man lol

[real trellis]

I think it's a bad idea because you usually take a hit while doing the riposte anyway

[obtuse lichen]

Use fighter with a bow thats it

[rigid prawn]

yep thats one way to do it currently light armor and your almost there just no hood :(

[obtuse lichen]

facepalm

[real trellis]

I don't think there's any getting through to this guy

[rigid prawn]

thats the risk part!

[obtuse lichen]

so basically you're saying you want to roleplay but cant?

[rigid prawn]

is english your first language? honest question

[obtuse lichen]

That's not how the balancing works my guy

[rigid prawn]

im saying having a longsword on a ranger makes sense, your saying its not cause they use bows mainly, im saying that only 1 archtype of a ranger, you said "Facepalm"

[obtuse lichen]

1

[obtuse lichen]

2

[rigid prawn]

your reading comprehension needs some work if the only thing you got out of that is that i wanna roleplay lol. I explained a way to make your character a ranger while being a fighter using your idea and your attacking me for it, tkae a chill pill dude

[obtuse lichen]

im getting brain tumor

[rigid prawn]

bad faith arguement, waste of time lol

[obtuse lichen]

I think you are the one who needs to take some brain activity pills before making suggestions like that just re-read your argument with other people and you will see what i mean

[rigid prawn]

What arguement? IM NOT THE GUY WHO MADE THE SUGGESTION!

[atomic cipher]

Stay civil folks.

[real trellis]

And there's no reason that barbarians shouldn't be able to wield all the same weapons as a fighter and vice versa (without having to take a perk for it) because they have all the same weapon profs but they don't because class identity is more important than what you think would be cool

[obtuse lichen]

In russia we fist fight each other to death

[atomic cipher]

Wonderful, but this isn't russia. Disagree with one another, but do not resort to insulting each other.

[real trellis]

Nobody asked and that has nothing to do with anything

[obtuse lichen]

Just a joke

[rigid prawn]

I dont mind keeping balance, my only contribution was a way to add a balanced version of the other guys suggestion by splitting the current longsword off into a bastard sword and creating AN ENTIRELY NEW WEAPON using the current longsword skin that rangers can use as well. It could not have parry/riposte, the skys the limit!

Dudes from russia, makes more sense why the language barriers there. Sorry if ive been impatient with it im just tired of getting argued at lol

And hoenstly i agree with adding more weapons to the barb pool, seems they have ideas with stuff like the viking sword being added to the game, would be cool to see barb have access to the round shield

I dont agree with locking classes out from weapons, especially if its something that applies to their archtype. You can get enough class identity from skills/perks, no need to limit weapon variety

You could even furthur balance longsword on ranger by making it require a perk like the current spear does. More than 1 way to deter a specific build over other options. Point is its there for those that want it

[obtuse lichen]

I don't have any problems with understanding your suggestions
It's just doesn't makes any sense for me
also adding skins for the game isn't really good decision unless that skin has the same length width height on the physical model as a default one or remaking weapon with the same skin in 2 types is not really good it will make it confusing
locking weapons on some classes important as well because it's one of the ways to keep the game more balanced around teams and draw the line between class self identity just imagine how broken it will be if cleric had a bastard sword instead of a mace
On top of that it will be much more easier to find stronger weapon on any class while raiding the dungeon
Idea without class locked weapons can be only implemented by adding debuffs on the weapon that is being used by wrong class
if not the game is going to be totally broken and unbalanced as fuck because people will just stick to the most broken class and spam meta weapon
having more options is good but the drawing the line between fun and balance is necessary as well
I don't mind seeing completely new weapon on the ranger like billhook or something like that but against giving him weapons from the meta pool they are pretty much in the right place + state especially longsword
right now i think we should pay attention to underused weapons instead of the weapons like longsword, halberd and spear.
For the sake of having more options as well

+i think archetypes are planned in the future but rn they aren't that urgent especially when the game needs polishing in more important aspects

You simply cant just take everything from a boardgame and make it 3d fps pvpve dungeon crawler without rebalancing it around game genre

@real trellis is that good enough?

[real trellis]

Why are you asking me, your argument is with the other guy

[obtuse lichen]

IK

[obtuse lichen]

Im afraid to tag him by myself

[real trellis]

I'm not getting involved any further lol I said what I wanted to say

[obtuse lichen]

definitely not because fighter is all rounder meanwhile ranger specializes in ranged combat and high mobility giving him more melee options is not necessary
Especially when they involve meta weapons
Every class should have pros and cons
His interaction speed movement speed and skillset will just make him a lot more stronger in combat than fighter then the only downside will be is armor and thats it
Even if you wanna say that naked fighter has the same feeling as ranger it's not really true
Because their base stats are different and ranger definitely wins in movement speed and action speed by default
meanwhile the only option to make fighter faster is to use sprint or just dont chase at all and switch on the bow
Melee option should be last resort for ranger and not be treated as main especially in pvp
also imo ranger shouldn't get extra damage from spear perk

It's accurate that some rangers can use simple polearms like spear since their hands are trained well
but giving bonus damage for that? spear is already isn't that bad since it has range fast attacks and simple animations

And btw rn on the fighter you dont have really have powerful active skills for weapons but can use pretty much every equipment of your choice
Meanwhile on classes like ranger and barb most of the active skills boost your damage or buff you a lot but they are very limited in equipment
Basically thats how the balance works

what im trying to say is if you want to play with ranged and melee option at the same time just play fighter

[granite plinth]

[solar falcon]

I love that you're using lore to try to validate your argument. in every single example of a ranger in actual history and popular culture, rangers use Swords and especially longswords. they definitely don't engage in melee as only a last resort. look at aragorn the most famous ranger and the reason the term is popularized for the rest of the fantasy archetype. chaucers Canterbury tales has a ranger leading a knight and squire along their pilgrimage, neither are armed but the ranger is mentioned to have a longbow, sword, dagger and buckler. look things up I've had this argument in ranger chat a few times.

[ripe hornet]

Legalos used his daggers/short swords a lot as well in LOTRs

[obtuse lichen]

Its a unique case

• i already explained why it's not great

[solar falcon]

that man is stonewalling every argument with closed minded assumptions and is exactly like the idiot that argued with me for hours and turned his argument into agreeing with me then got blocked for DM messaging me to kms.

don't try to discuss suggestions with people who can't have their opinion changed.

твоя мать трахает свиней

[obtuse lichen]

What the fuck

idk who are you talking about

It's not always about lore anyways

[solar falcon]

your argument had both hilariously bad opinions and just plain incorrect statements
let's tear it apart

fighters are all rounded classes but we don't care about them for this talk

rangers specialize in ranged combat, but they still must engage in melee often as is the nature of the dungeon.
their mobility is irrelevant because every single class has some option to slow and catch a ranger or boost their own speed rangers can't just run away from melee and win if the other team wants to chase.

rangers still have many many cons even if they do get longsword, it's just a skillbased weapon. not good if you can't use it right.

interaction speed has no bearing in this argument as its only relevant if we're talking about him running away and he's not using the sword if he's closing doors

already mentioned move speed isn't really an issue

what skillset? he has a -5% debuff to Weapon damage and not a single melee skill that would apply to longsword.

there's no way a ranger with a longsword is stronger than a fighter. they have a fraction of the armor values, no victory strike, swift, sprint, second wind, or anything perk wise the fighter has, they would have a sword that on matched quality would do less damage before the armor is involved and zero perks to help it, fighter can passively heal during fight, use sprint to out movespeed the ranger, buff their damage several times with several perks, then use victory strike. on top of that a longsword fighter with the same amount of playtime and stats as a ranger with a longsword is going to be better with it since that is their primary weapon.

a naked fighter vs a naked ranger. the fighter has more health and perks on their side, even with matched health the ranger does less damage than the fighter, movespeed is on the fighter side since the ranger can't escape from melee after taking one hit, the fighter wins movespeed with sprint which every fighter should use.

melee option should be a last resort or situational option only I agree as a ranger main. but that doesn't mean it has to not be an option or be such a bad option they can't still win, but only if they are skilled.

they shouldn't get extra damage from spear perk, but the spear perk only negates the -5% debuff rangers have with all melee. I say give them a perk to use the longsword but keep the debuff,

fighters have some of the best active skills in the game.

rangers skills only buff their ranged attacks so longsword with no added skills meh.

I'm not going to reply anymore, I've made my suggestion, arguments for its validity and how it won't truly effect balancing much. defended it a few times and it doesn't matter since the next time we see the game many many things will have already changed

[obtuse lichen]

Your arguments are only relevant if you take purely melee combat for both classes excluding every other aspects of the game
Also you are hypocrite my guy #suggestion-discussion message

blocking everyone that doesn't agrees with you is not going to help
and not taking every other aspects of the game when you are arguing about class balance is straight up stupid
Its like saying let's give barbarian bow because he has limited ranged options
why not he still will be much worse than a ranger with bow anyways because he has no skills for it and also slower

Btw it's historically accurate that vikings used a bows

[real trellis]

wowie zowie this argument is still going.

[obtuse lichen]

i guess

he probably blocked me already and im talking with myself
Cant really expect anything from hypocrite especially when he types some really mean things on the Russian

Anyways i want bow for a barbarian now because it's historically accurate and probably won't be stronger than ranger!!!!

[hazy epoch]

or we just dont? theres nothing historically accurate about a barbarian using a bow. the barbarian is a berserkr viking which is a shock infantry who doenst use ranged attacks aside from the long range of a two handed axe. this is why we leave the devs to make the game and not fools like you.

[obtuse lichen]

That was a joke

[hazy epoch]

was there also a joke when you malded and told the dude you were arguing with to khs?

[obtuse lichen]

wait what i did not

[lone crescent]

@solar falcon LOTR isn't a good example, Gandalf, a sorcerer, fights with a sword

[obtuse lichen]

@hazy epoch what are you on about i never dmed anyone

[ripe hornet]

the wizards in DaD can use a sword as well though, and Gandalf also primarily uses his staff for magic related stuff

[lone crescent]

He uses his staff just for some utility spells

I know he casted a fireball once (didn't read the book tho) and that's all, then he act like a warrior

[lone crescent]

Barbarian is DaD is both classic tribal barbarian and viking

[ripe hornet]

i mean it makes sense though that every "class" in a fantasy setting would have some sword/melee experience as thats the primary style of fighting

[tropic dirge]

66

[obtuse lichen]

agree

[hazy epoch]

you cant say a barbarian is a berseker and a archer viking, theyre trained completely different

[lone crescent]

Yeah it's just to point out that classes as depicted in LOTR are not a good example for a fantasy game

[obtuse lichen]

Its better to take example from DnD not from LOTR

[solar falcon]

I never blocked anyone. I just don't see the point in the discussion.

Gandalf is a wizard not a sorcerer. (technically a God but that's not important to the subject) also wizards in DaD use a crystal sword so??

lord of the rings is always a good example when discussing fantasy genre because it popularized and spearheaded the interest in fantasy. damn near everything you do in fantasy bases a lot of its lore or influence around Tolkiens work

[obtuse lichen]

But most of the classes in this game were actually based on DnD

[hazy epoch]

this game is literally fantasy fuck off with ur irl shit lmfao

[lone crescent]

Barbarian in DnD have proficiency with all the weapons, including bows.
In DaD they choose to give him classical barb gear and viking related stuffs, like they choose to give medieval gear to fighter

[solar falcon]

Swords are and always have been sidearms and secondary weapons in history and In fantasy

[obtuse lichen]

Well thats how the balancing works in the game genre since it is not tabletop game
you take all the aspects of the game into account before making any decisions about class balancing

[hazy epoch]

use your brain, inf trains as inf their whole life, archer trains at archer, in no wy in barb proficient with every weapon considering THEY LITERALLY CANT EQUIP EVERY WEAPONN

[ripe hornet]

think the majority of it is just based off balance though, having a Giga tank barb thats just plucking you from across the dungeon would be super annoying

[solar falcon]

rangers in D&D are proficient in all weapons as well

[obtuse lichen]

@solar falcon Were you talking about monty

[lone crescent]

Modern fantasy is based on DnD

[solar falcon]

d&d is based on works made by chaucer and Tolkien so??

modern fantasy is the product of many many years of needs that read Tolkien and built upon that

[obtuse lichen]

Yes that's what im trying to say

[lone crescent]

In DnD, Dungeons and Dragon's, they have proficiency with every weapon

[hazy epoch]

kid stonewalls everythig so much that the conversation has drifted

[solar falcon]

rangers are not just archerers that's not what the word ranger means. a ranger is a warden, and traveller, referring to the range they roam

[ripe hornet]

Its a game at the end of the day, yes it is influenced by prior fantasy aspects, but that doesn't mean it has to follow all of their rules strictly. They can make changes that suit the game and balance the game so its fun

[opaque estuary]

longsword would just immediately become meta on ranger would it not? its only competing with stuff like rapier/short sword

[lone crescent]

If we have to take everything from DnD then yes Barbarian should be able to use bows, shield, daggers, spears, axes, and almost any non magic related weapons, that's why the "accurate ranger" discussion makes no sense

[obtuse lichen]

i think we should talk about actual classes and how to make playable experience on them unique instead of just taking historically based opinions or lore accurate ones

[solar falcon]

bows are dex based weapons in D&D barbarians are strength based characters. they can use them but they suck with them

[lone crescent]

Ranger in Dark and Darker is clearly meant to be an archer

[obtuse lichen]

Yes

[solar falcon]

it would compete with spear directly that's the meta mele for ranger atm

[lone crescent]

That's not even relevant for the discussion

[opaque estuary]

wtf ranger can use spear?

[solar falcon]

you brought it up and i refuted the argument. that makes it relevant

[ripe hornet]

it makes sense for them to have a long range melee poker cause they squishy

[obtuse lichen]

Spear isn't really meta i used 50% bastard sword and 50% spear and liked bastard sword more since it has faster attack speed and doesn't takes slot perk

[lone crescent]

He can use the bow, he's bad with it but he CAN use it, so he should be able to use a bow in the game according to your argument

[obtuse lichen]

In my experience i only engaged with a sword when enemy was really low or i ran out of arrows and couldn't reload in time

[opaque estuary]

the real answer for why IM doesnt give ranger a longsword is they probably want to keep certain weapons as exclusives for one class, ranger already has about as many weapons as barb/rogue and giving ranger a longsword would take the fighter only identity away from the weapon

[lone crescent]

@solar falcon if yoo are using Aragorn as a ranger archetype then i can use DnD Barbarian, you can't reject facts cause you don't like them

[opaque estuary]

figher only has longsword and halberd if i recall correctly as "exclusive" weapons

[obtuse lichen]

Ranger isn't going to be stronger in terms of fair 1v1 fight on the longsword against fighter
but overall its really a huge buff for ranger to use meta weapon like a longsword
Its making him a bit 2 confident in melee fights against other classes as well and gives him a lot more chances

[solar falcon]

go find me a popular fantasy ranger and tell me if they exclusively use a bow and no longsword

[ripe hornet]

Its also only the playtests, there is plenty of content to be added and plenty of changes to be made

[obtuse lichen]

Why you are taking unique chars instead of typical rangers

[lone crescent]

I don't care, Ironmace needs to create their own version of the Ranger, they don't need to just copy

[solar falcon]

because he is a ranger and popularized the name ranger and when people say I want to be a ranger it's followed by like aragorn. I brought up other characters too I usually bring up three

[obtuse lichen]

Just roleplay as fighter aragorn

[ripe hornet]

when i think ranger i think Legolas tbh

[obtuse lichen]

When i think ranger i think about usual archer with 1 handed weapon and bow

[ripe hornet]

elf with bow

[lone crescent]

Vex'halia, The Legend of Vox Machina, based on a DnD stream campaign, she is Ranger/Rogue hybrid and uses only a bow

[solar falcon]

I'm not saying I want to be aragorn he's just the most popular example of a ranger.

regardless of any history or lore, character, or D&D.

I'd like to play ranger with options to diverse like every other class has.

[obtuse lichen]

Oh god i think devs should just rename ranger to archer so people stop trying to make aragorn out of the class

[opaque estuary]

pretty sure ranger has the 2nd or 3rd most weapons

[solar falcon]

that is a character decision in a role playing game doesn't mean rangers can't be anything else

[opaque estuary]

youre shifting the goalpost on that one brotha

[lone crescent]

"go find me a popular fantasy ranger and tell me if they exclusively use a bow and no longsword"

I did and you just rejected my argument saying she doesn't count, this is not even a discussion

[obtuse lichen]

Basically ranger isn't really a ranger in dark and darker rn it's an archer or crossbowman

Also it's not DnD or LOTR

[glacial sphinx]

Dont agree you can use a bunch of melee weapons, spear in particular is insanely good. And I don't think Dark n Darkers ranger needs to fit exactly into your preconceived notions of it in general

[lone crescent]

It's Aragorn choice to fight with a sword instead of a bow then, so Aragorn doesn't count, sorry but that's a braindead statement

[solar falcon]

giving an example of a ranger that doesn't just use bows is positive to the argument that rangers can use more than just bows. giving an example of a ranger that just uses bows to argue they can't use other weapons is dumb.

devilman really wants to change the name of the class to archerer so people can't ask for a ranger to have things every other ranger in fantasy has

[opaque estuary]

nah man the point is you asked for something and are discrediting the answer

[lone crescent]

Also the Ranger in DnD can use spears, swords and rapiers, what do you want more? You want him to be a worst fighter?

[obtuse lichen]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117130525002444820/image.png
just look at this

This class is meant for ranged combat mostly even devs said that

[lone crescent]

Nooooo they NEED to copy the rangers from other fantasy related stuff so he can roleplay as Aragorn

[obtuse lichen]

He is hypocrite anyways #suggestion-discussion message

[lone crescent]

I gave him exactly what he asked
#suggestion-discussion message and then this? #suggestion-discussion message

[obtuse lichen]

This guy just looks at the part of the picture instead of looking at the whole art

[glacial sphinx]

Think its good to define classes a bit more, honestly dungeons and dragons classes overlap too much. Plus by the logic of having everything the class has in some other medium you're going to end up giving Wizard a 1000 more spells.

[lone crescent]

Yeah only his opinion matters lol

[obtuse lichen]

ofc

[lone crescent]

Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians and Bards all uses the same weapons in DnD

It's all about competence, the Bard has low competence with the bow so he can use only survival bow that is the worst

In DnD even Barbarians can use bow, but no survival bow to barbarian, why? For balance ofc

[obtuse lichen]

Yes

My main point was the balance not lore or history at first but then he started to compare ls fighter to ls ranger instead of comparing classes to each other as the whole

He was comparing tree branches instead of trees

[lone crescent]

WE are stonewalling

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah im an idiot

Also have you translated what he typed on the Russian to me

[lone crescent]

Did now lol

[obtuse lichen]

🧟‍♂️

[lone crescent]

How do you guys feel about dual weapons? What if they make something like dual swords and dual axes as weapons? I mean one piece of gear that takes 2 slots and does mixes combos with both hands

[warm oxide]

Seems kind of janky unless there are two unique weapons that have a unique movement when held together

[lusty tendon]

I think there should be a paladin class where like you deal 15% more damage with two handed swords or spearsbut you can only wear plate armor and you move like 5% slower

[lone crescent]

I said one piece of gear made of two weapons, like you loot the item "dual blades"

Both sword are part of one weapon, i'm not talking about two different blades to use togheter

[compact barn]

Lemme get them dual longswords

[rigid prawn]

Gandalfs magic is insanely subtle, he has some less subtle uses of it like the beam of light he used to save the rohan riders. Gandalf is the definition ofm a utility mage.

[lone crescent]

That's exactly why he can't be considered a fantasy mage archetype

[rigid prawn]

But wizards are usually a utlilty based class in a lot of games/media. Gandalf is a staple fantasy wizard i don't understand how you could think otherwise lol

This whole discussion about balance is stupid anyway. The game isn't finished yet and EVERYTHING is subject to change. They put spear on Ranger to give it a viable strong melee weapon, theres NOTHING stopping them from doing it again. The also added the Viking sword to the barb which is a 1 handed sword, they could add a round shield or even a sub class bow specialist that takes hits to their melee capabilities as a trade off. Everything in the game is placeholder, and the game borrows heavily from fantasy media. expanding weapon pools create diversity, and the longsword, although very strong, come with down sides that the ranger loses from as well. The parry is very precise and if missed, gg ranger. The sword has the same MS modifier as the spear, so has the similar downside. People that are just screaming BALANCE are short sighted and cant see that thigns can be adjusted to not be op. Just because in YOUR mind something is OP doesnt mean thats how it will translate to the game. Let them add it, we will test it, if its bad or seems wrong then it can be removed.

Balance is not an arguing point at this stage in development, this is the stage of EXPERIMENTATION!

Hell they've talked about letting most classes get access to some sort of magic, whether thats through one use scrolls or other staples like rangers access to nature magic, class identity will rely heavily on how you build your character OUTSIDE weapon choice.

A barbarian isn't defined by the axe they wield, but by the Rage they channel and the recklessness of their swings.

[abstract swallow]

The only thing relevant about balance at this stage of development is that the developers are not actively pursuing it. (We simply receive whatever internal changes they've made, and hotfixes for some problem children)
This is a good thing, for three obvious reasons.
The first is that the developers aren't making balance decisions based on incomplete versions of the game where, which are heavily influenced by elements not avaliable in the public test versions. (See: Ranger/Wizard being held back exceptionally hard by Knowledge and Resourcefulness being almost completely unfinished)
The second is that the developers can implement new systems and content for testing/feedback without having to worry about how it will impact an ecosystem with managed balance, or that feedback being oriented purely towards balance. (See: Literally every new spell/class/feature)
The third is that it's more resources the developers can put towards making the game feature complete, which should obviously be the priority for the game during its developmental and testing stages.

[rigid prawn]

Badger with the common sense once again!

we have examples of games that try to balance while they develop the game like Tarkov and Star Citizen, both which have almost a decade of development time with the intended game being years away still. Focus on getting systems in, let the EA testers TEST the new systems, and then adjust accordingly as feedback rolls in. Double Jump and locust swarm are perfect examples of this

[lone crescent]

@abstract swallow @rigid prawn we were discussing the fact that wanting things based on: "Aragorn uses a sword" makes no sense.

The only balance thing I said is that a bow to barbarian is broken and i'm pretty sure that's true

[obtuse crane]

dung and drags drew influence from tolkien

[obtuse lichen]

ok

[rigid prawn]

Ide argue everything in this game in someway at it’s core is based on something similar to “Aragorn uses a sword”. This is a fantasy rpg after all, it’s all based on fantasy tropes. Why dismiss one while attaching to another?

[obtuse lichen]

why people keep bringing up this discussion
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117130525002444820/image.png

[lone crescent]

He wants Ranger to be strong in melee cause he wants to play melee ranger like Aragorn, we said just play fighter and he said no he doesn't have the hood, how's that even a discussion?

[obtuse lichen]

This guy wants hood too

[lone crescent]

He just wants his character to cosplay and roleplay as Aragorn

[rigid prawn]

Why can’t ranger have a long sword though? Balance is not a talking point as badger and I have established, so besides the fact that YOU don’t want it why does it matter if he has access to it when he already has access to a fighter weapon through the spear?

[obtuse lichen]

ok here we go again

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117130525002444820/image.png

[lone crescent]

1. Ranger doesn't need a lot of melee option
2. Fighter needs his own class weapons

[rigid prawn]

And he has a lot of them, he also has access to other classes weapons through a perk since it fits the archetype of a fighter to be well versed in many weapons. Ranger having 1 more melee option is not the end of the world, so why doesn’t he need it?

[obtuse lichen]

[lone crescent]

Fighter has only Longsword and Halberd as his own

[rigid prawn]

Before bard there was also falchion as well, but as more weapons and classes get added to the game that roster will flesh out more.

[obtuse lichen]

just make billhook for ranger and fighter and everyone will be happy

[rigid prawn]

For all we know they will give druid access to the halberd

[lone crescent]

Ironmace vision of the ranger is as an archer, I guess they don't want the class to be strong in melee and i like that

[obtuse lichen]

+1

[rigid prawn]

You say that as if the spear peek doesn’t exist, ironmace have established the ranger as the proficient archer and your railroading that role as the identity of the class when it’s not even by ironmaces implementation

[obtuse crane]

its a 3 man triangle ROLE cmb system. ranger plays his role. simple.

[lone crescent]

Spear sure is strong but is accessible as a perk to keep some balance

[rigid prawn]

Once again, clarification, ranger /= ranged, it mean warden or protector of the wilds like a Park ranger irl

[lone crescent]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117130525002444820/image.png

[rigid prawn]

Yea I’ve seen that it still doesn’t mean that they can’t get access to melee weapons lol

[obtuse lichen]

its really hard to find a decent spear nowadays + it takes perk slot
But by adding 2 meta weapons accesible for ranger instead 1 it will be easier to find spear or longsword

[rigid prawn]

So make it locked behind a perk like spear! Problem solved

[obtuse lichen]

Simply doubles the chances of finding better weapons

[lone crescent]

Spear, arming sword, short sword and rapier, does he needs more?

[rigid prawn]

Why not?

[obtuse crane]

spear is pog, but i believe ur forgetting rapier/short sword combo. as a figher/cleric i do fear getting close to a ranger who is preparedd

[obtuse lichen]

bastard sword is insane imo

[rigid prawn]

What weapon are you referring to, there is not bastard sword in the game lol

[obtuse lichen]

I meant arming sword sorry

[rigid prawn]

I see lol, big difference!

[obtuse lichen]

Every weapon for ranger is great he doesn't needs more melee options for now

[rigid prawn]

Why not? Why add arbitrary limitations on a game that doesn’t have its foundational systems in place? What about after they add 10 more melee weapons to the fighter, then it’s not as much of a problem no?

[obtuse lichen]

I think we should talk about underused weapons instead of meta

Because the bigger weapon pool the easier it will be for ranger to find melee weapon with a great rolls

[rigid prawn]

And that’s a bad thing how?

[lone crescent]

Then just add longsword to Bard too cause he should be able to use for the lore

[obtuse lichen]

yes

[rigid prawn]

Explain yourself please lol

[lone crescent]

Add bow to barbarian cause he should be able to use it

[obtuse lichen]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117130525002444820/image.png
#suggestion-discussion message

[rigid prawn]

I have no problem with bard having long sword personally since I believe identity is tied to the character stats rather than the weapon they choose to wield myself, or barb for that matter

[obtuse lichen]

We are just running in circles

[obtuse crane]

@rigid prawn its a bit moot, as i dont think uve even seen the unique weapons yet...... u do realise at somepoint no matter the class with the right weapons u will one shot just about anyone right/

[lone crescent]

The truth is that not every class should use everything, they need to preserve classes identity and a longsword to ranger will damage fighter's identity and give a meta melee weapon to ranger

[rigid prawn]

In the current placeholder systems yes but everything is subject to change so once again balance is not a good talking point at this stage in development

[obtuse lichen]

Remember even if they were inspired by LOTR or DnD it's not a boardgame but pvpve extraction dungeon crawler
you simply cant apply boardgame rules to it

[obtuse crane]

idk where u read that, but no. one thing all 6 play tests have been testing is some median of balance across varous inputs

[placid canopy]

It's entirely possible there's a melee ranger subclass or multiclass into fighter depending on what they do with those type of things. Pointless to argue for hours about the unknown

[rigid prawn]

I don’t get this line of thinking, longsword would be used VERY differently by a ranger. Longsword on fighter is strong because he’s got 85% dmg reduction backing up the damage and lack of defence

[placid canopy]

You can just play lightly armored fighter and it would be the same

[lone crescent]

By this logic you could give felling axe to ranger cause he uses it differently

[obtuse lichen]

alright why not just add different unique weapon for ranger why you want to play on ls so bad

[rigid prawn]

Balance is an afterthought as they implement new systems, fixing obviously broken stuff is not the same as balancing the game

[real trellis]

Oh my GOD bro yall are STILL on this

[obtuse crane]

there is no hope with this fella, must have only 20hrs palyed

[compact barn]

Yes add longsword to bard so I can parry a fool and play him a farewell tune afterwards

[obtuse lichen]

I want axe for cleric also plate armor

[compact barn]

Also let's get a metal lute shaped like an axe with high melee damage for a unique bard weapon please and thank you

[rigid prawn]

Ad hominem detracts form your position, makes you look bad and seem like you have nothing better to add

[obtuse crane]

after u get 500hr of expericne dieing, ull understand why a lot of what u say is not good long term

[obtuse lichen]

alright you are all brickwalling where is my 2 handed axe for a cleric and crystal ball

[rigid prawn]

Give me an example then if you’re so wise

[rigid prawn]

Fighter can use crystal ball :P

[obtuse lichen]

Because its not only about comparing ls on different classes its about comparing classes as the whole

[compact barn]

Also spear rangers are exceptionally deadly in melee because of how well the class stats synergize with the weapon on top of how good the weapon stats are as well. Ranger in DaD is not a ranged only class

[rigid prawn]

And what is the downside to ranger getting access to the longsword

[placid canopy]

Honestly surprised i never saw magic damage fighters with crystal sword and a wizard friend igniting them

[obtuse lichen]

Its making him a bit over excelling in melee aspect

[rigid prawn]

Y’all make it out like ranger with a longsword is unkillable lol

[obtuse crane]

u dont remeber the great spear nerf? why would they get a ls if spear is already op?

[compact barn]

Giving ranger longsword wouldn't change the fact they'd be playin the class sub optimally regardless because of how good they are with spear lol. So give everyone longswords! More longsword bros the better!

[rigid prawn]

Because what’s op now could be trash later after the 100 balance passes that will happen throughout the development

[lone crescent]

Crazy YouTubers did it

[placid canopy]

It more seems like longsword just doesn't fit the theme of the game. Ranger supposed to be ranged in this game. Any other media is irrelevant

[rigid prawn]

Based on what? The devs don’t seem to agree with you with their access to spears

[obtuse crane]

u cant play what ifs on the future unknow *******, only the present and the past. gf

[obtuse lichen]

you need to compare trees not branches

[rigid prawn]

You are defending balance on an implementation you’ve never play tested, talking about what ifs lol

[lone crescent]

Ranger has access to spear cause he need some chance of winning in melee range, they don't want you to run into enemies with spear lol

[rigid prawn]

You say this but without context it has no substance. Ranger as a whole is not a ranged only class so by that definition it should get access to more melee options

[obtuse crane]

im a figher main. i got tons of ls experience. spear is op. smple. u realy wan tthem to have a spear, and a ls to parry with? bro u asken to get trained

[obtuse lichen]

facepalm

[placid canopy]

Just base on the description they gave for the class. It's weird they even have access to it in the first place, but a spear over literally any other weapon makes sense for its simplicity. I still don't agree with it being a powerful weapon in this game

[rigid prawn]

Longsword as I see it would be a high risk high reward playstyle on ranger, rewarding skill through parrying and positioning and punishing those that can’t do either

[obtuse lichen]

tbh i prefer arming sword more than spear on the ranger

[obtuse crane]

thats why they have a spear, spear>LS what dont u understand about that?

[rigid prawn]

Archetypes of ranger makes them excel with ranged option but there are examples of rangers that don’t use bows at all in fantasy media

[obtuse lichen]

#suggestion-discussion message

[placid canopy]

This game isn't fantasy media. It's dad

[rigid prawn]

It is a fantasy rpg by definition don’t know why you would think differently

[obtuse crane]

lol

[obtuse lichen]

just play barony you can use everything on any class in it

[placid canopy]

The title of the class is "ranger"but by the description is a ranged class. If the name wasn't there you'd have no reason to ever want it

[obtuse lichen]

Just think about it as an archer

[rigid prawn]

Man I feel like a broken record

Ranger doesn’t mean ranged it mean warden or protector of the woods like an irl park ranger

[obtuse crane]

or play fromsoft pvp with ur melee ranger frenstine

[obtuse lichen]

Its an archer for fuck sake

[rigid prawn]

That where the tracking/ bear traps and heightened hearing tropes that the class have come from

[obtuse lichen]

#suggestion-discussion message

[placid canopy]

The game class identity is archer as of now. End of story. If you want a melee guy go play a dif class

[rigid prawn]

Railroad the class all you want, when the tree implementation comes in and if they add subclasses like they’ve previously discussed then that will all go out the window

[placid canopy]

I think that's the first thing i said

[rigid prawn]

You guys are getting attached to placeholder systems and class designations during an alpha test. This is a slippery slope and you WILL be disappointed I can assure you

[obtuse lichen]

skill tree probably is going to upgrade your skills or attributes

[placid canopy]

.

[rigid prawn]

We don’t know what it does yet we can only guess. For all your know through the tree you’ll be able to make a melee specialist ranger, it’s a guessing game

[obtuse lichen]

Yes

Multiclasses will probably have massive downsides as well

[rigid prawn]

But they could stilll be in those game then all your arguments that you’ve made against a melee using ranger is dismantled and you’ve agreed that’s the case lol

[placid canopy]

In traditional dnd the downside is lack of progress in main class where the best things usually are

[rigid prawn]

Fun > min max

[placid canopy]

Minmax = fun 🙂

[rigid prawn]

It can be lol

[obtuse crane]

we do know, perks and skills as we know it are a placeholder system to test them to gain data. THESE will be apart of the leveling class system that hasent been shown/used yet. so yes. we do have an idea of what and how it works

[obtuse lichen]

no one knows if they are even going to implement multiclasses or just stick to simplicity by adding more various perks on the normal classes

[rigid prawn]

They could go multiple directions, including giving ranger access to the longsword! Anything is possible at this stage of development

[obtuse crane]

uh no. gl though

[rigid prawn]

You don’t have to like the idea, dismissing it as never going to happen though I think is naive

[obtuse lichen]

Im going to have nightmares about ls today

[rigid prawn]

[glacial sphinx]

Don't think every class should get every weapon, and I don't think rangers should get a longsword. It's not for balance reasons though its for differentiating classes.

[edgy hound]

Just curious, Why do people think rangers will get longswords

[glacial sphinx]

just a bunch of people arguing for it in this channel, because of aragorn supposedly

[edgy hound]

Yea rangers shouldn’t get longswords but they need to improve their melee a tiny bit

[glacial sphinx]

Think fighters having longswords exclusively is a point that makes the class interesting. Spears on rangers are very strong and fitting. They could add some more spear variants maybe. Rapier is also a pretty good weapon in general plus it feels nice to use.

Rangers without a perk like the spear one should be at a meaningful disadvantage in melee vs rogue/fighter/barbs/clerics though, and fight roughly evenly with wizards in melee.

[rigid prawn]

Ide rather they swap out the spear for the longsword if i had the option between the 2. Dont see a problem personally with ranger getting access to it, but seems fighters want to retain it as an exclusive. Best of both world, longsword would be fighter exclusive but give a couple inches of length and turned into a bastard sword (mechanics stay the same). Current longsword model is turned into a new longsword weapon that doesn't have parry and useable by ranger/fighter. Both team win, fighter get unique parrying playstyle while Aragorn lovers get the option to use the new revamped longsword.

Fighter would of course be able to use both

[rigid prawn]

Curious on why you consider the spear a valid ranger weapon while longsword not. Not looking for an argument jsut trying to understand.

[placid canopy]

The real crime is not everyone having access to a dagger

[glacial sphinx]

Its more of a dexterity weapon in my view and a longer range one. The longsword has a unique melee mechanic which imo is suited to be exclusive to a melee specialized class.

[rigid prawn]

Fair, makes sense. Even though i think the longsword mechanics cant be capitilized on as well by the ranger because of lighter armor/ less survivablility, i can understand the want for those specific mechanics to be fighter only. I still think finding some sort of common ground where ranger has access to a "longsword shaped" weapon even if it doesn't share mechanics.

[glacial sphinx]

yea think thats fine, a larger onehanded sword than the arming sword. And daggers are fine too

[rigid prawn]

dagger should really be unlocked across all classes

[compact barn]

I want all classes to have longsword, but I'm a bit biased

[worthy quarry]

I get what your saying but why would a barb ever use a dagger?

[abstract swallow]

weight penalty
it's half the reason they use francs

[worthy quarry]

Yeah but they would still be slow if you were to do that just become a rogue with heavy armor

[abstract swallow]

I routinely put my weapon away to beat people to death with my fists as a Barb, swapping to a knife would just be a better version of that

[rugged eagle]

From my point of view Ranger is more of like a woodsman with him putting down traps and campfires so a spear thematically makes more sense then a longsword as spears have historically been used for hunting i.e boar hunting just my two cents though

[rigid prawn]

makes sense to me!

I have no qualms with the spear as a ranger weapon myself either, but seeing some sort of 2 handed sword for the ranger class, lognsword or not, jsut make sense from a theme point of view from other ranger inspirations. We already have dual wield with short sword/arming sword combo for those Drizzt wannabes, would be cool to see the Aragorn love :P

[abstract swallow]

there's lots of different 'class fantasies' that can be perscribed to Rangers, it all depends on which ones the devs want to use (which we'll probably see more of with Class Trainer archetypes)

[summer drift]

I don't see a ranger as someone who could beat a fighter in a swordfight

[rigid prawn]

rogues ability to use daggers better than other classes doesn't mean other classes shouldn't get access to daggers. Rogue has attack speed and on hit stacking abilities that play towards accenting a fast hitting weapon, Barb would maybe get some use in reckless and other on hit stuff (looking at u Achilles) but can be better utilised by higher burst damage potential weapons like felling axe for that one shot potential.

this is actually my argument for longsword on ranger as well, although a parry god could potentially finesse a barb with a longsword on ranger, the consequences for a mistake could quite literally mean you die instantly (missing the parry). On fighter this isnt as much of an issue since you can stack damage reduction to make those little mistakes more forgiving, so the fighter will always excel with the longsword relative to the ranger.

TLDR: Ranger vs Fighter of equal skill, both with longsword, fighter has the advantage

Considering you can also already block with a spear, ranger already has the option to have the potential the longsword would bring. Longsword sacrfices the reach of spear for faster follow up through the ability to riposte

But i do agree, we will have to wait and see what the devs decide to do with the class tree system/ subclasses etc. They have the final say at the end of the day.

[placid canopy]

Not commenting on anything else here, but

Rogue has attack speed and on hit stacking abilities
is a full meme when poison is like one of the worst perks they can take and it's the only one like that

May be different in the future of the game

[rugged eagle]

Surely the dot debuff resistance interaction will be fixed for EA?

[placid canopy]

Even without that it's still 2 damage per hit that takes 4 full seconds which is worse than even dagger expert with the base dagger

[rugged eagle]

If not wizard mains will be on suicide watch

[arctic lagoon]

I really wanna know what changes theyre making aaaaa

[summer drift]

In my opinion bard should get Spell Memory and access to lesser spells such as zap or ice bolt as they're usually considered to be a bad jack of all trades in D&D

They're also spellcasters just like warlocks. They don't do everything through playing songs

[rigid prawn]

Ambush is another perk that can benefit from attack speed

[rugged eagle]

Makes sense I'd like some more spells added before this change though so there is not too much overlap with wizard

[summer drift]

Agreed. Although bards are able to cast the same basic spells such as Magic Missile (not our version since in normal D&D they are much weaker and dont' come in such large amounts)

I don't mind some overlap as long as bards don't get to cast stuff like the cleric plague spell, resurrection or fireball. In fact some overlap would be good, just like non caster classes can overlap weapons.

[placid canopy]

Huh? It says first attack

[rigid prawn]

You're right i meant Weakpoint

[placid canopy]

Eh attack speed doesn't really matter for that either. 1 big hit is same as lots of small

[rigid prawn]

For the 50% damage yes, but tyhe 50% reduced defence is where the more hits you get in the better

[placid canopy]

I mean... Sure? But it's still exactly the same for 1 hit at 50 dmg vs 2 at 25

[rigid prawn]

first hit is the only one thats gets the 50% dmg increase, the 50% reduction is for 5 seconds afterwards. The more hits you get in those 5 secons the better.

[placid canopy]

I don't think you read what I said

There's no stack there

[rigid prawn]

what do you mean by stack? the stacking of the 50% dmg over the 50% debuff?

[placid canopy]

Either

[rigid prawn]

they dont stack, 1 applies to the first hit the other applies to hits afterwards, dont see what your getting at lol

[placid canopy]

Yes but they don't really gain anything from attack speed there other than the usual benefit of it ofc

[rigid prawn]

all of rogues weapons hit fast enough to get a couple hit in those 5 seconds, but i never did the testing on whether getting a extra hit in with a stiletto or castillion would be more damage overall. would be fairly comparable i would think though.

[placid canopy]

Pointless to figure it out cuz everyone has varying debuff duration

[rigid prawn]

yeah so many factors it just comes down to use what you like lol

[placid canopy]

In general stiletto is best dagger tho

[rigid prawn]

im partial to the short sword, really like that over head for bypassing shields / smacking double jumping rogues

[worthy quarry]

every year have June 9th give like 2x gold and xp to remember the line holders that fought nexon

[summer drift]

That would actually be pretty cool

[obtuse lichen]

having random events in the game will be cool overall

[bleak dagger]

They should take the servers offline at the 9th, instead. To relive the kiddie's eternal suffering.

[granite plinth]

Hello.

I think the darker and darker special edition collectors box should have some ingame items. my idea is something like a cape that gives you minor stats like +5 All Stats and is account bound. This will make the box set totally cool!

[graceful frost]

👎

[granite plinth]

I think it would be cool if the spell book for wizard lit up when casting a spell. Like what if when casting a fireball a red rune started to glow on the page. Also maybe the page turns when you switch spells? Small things but would be cool

[bleak dagger]

yeah please make this game pay to win. dumbest idea in the history of modern gaming monetization. Makes me so mad how someone can make such a stupid suggestion.

[obtuse lichen]

he is a known troll btw

[autumn flare]

Skins for items, like different cape colour or some painting on shield would be fine

[obtuse lichen]

it would be cool to let people change armor color or paint their shields

[bleak dagger]

sounds like one step away from ingame skin purchases. I think it is crucial to identify items or overall itemquality by the looks; color would be one dimension, but own shield banners sounds totally nice.

[autumn flare]

Ye i loved old regal gambeson pattern

[obtuse lichen]

well item model will still be the same i dont see a problem with identifying armor by how model looks even if colors were partically changed

[bleak dagger]

the "ruby armor" is like just a red version of regular plate. Which means you can see like: "oh shit, that man is invested."

[obtuse lichen]

Letting people to partically armor colors isn't going to be that big of the deal

[obtuse lichen]

Actually i think you are kinda misunderstood me because instead of armor i meant clothing

My bad

[bleak dagger]

what cloth would that be? I mean if you wear full armor one couldn't see it anyway?

[obtuse lichen]

items like gambesons
maybe some limited options for pants
Basically everything that made from leather or cloth

[bleak dagger]

isn't that still armor?

[autumn flare]

Idk if the skins don't change pattern and shape of items, just change color shade for example dirty yellow into dirty beige it's totally ok

[obtuse lichen]

It is but like i said it's not going to be a problem if you add some limited options for changing colors

[bleak dagger]

I can already see all the pink unicorn rogues

[obtuse lichen]

Keyword limited or simply more variants

[bleak dagger]

What I'd really like to see is putting all those gems you pick up in the dungeon to sockets in your armor.

[autumn flare]

What can't you get dude? We are not talking about unlimited customization but like 3 or 4 shades to choose from

[obtuse lichen]

lol

Well in mordhau you can change clothing color as you like

And it doesn't looks corny

idk why people think that changing emblems on the clothing or having different color sets will make them stuggle with identifying its type

Like literally physical model will be the same except for some patterns or colors

tell is that hard to identify templar armor after some colors and pattern were changed a bit on the mordhau example
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117408788950032465/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117409010786783253/image.png
@bleak dagger@autumn flare

or gambeson
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117409867636949053/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1078231698724114442/1117410171640107038/image.png

[autumn flare]

That's what im talking about, it's totally ok to have to choose from 2 or 3 color options

It even look better in game, when everybody look a little bit different and has some little customization

[obtuse lichen]

Yep

It doesn't even needs to be implemented as a slider you simply can add more variants as ground drops or loot
and make tailor do repainting or changing pattern if you want a different color or pattern from the one you got

It's not going to affect stats of the item in any way

#d-and-d-suggestions message also i'd like to see this

[lone crescent]

New Goblin caves look insane

[obtuse lichen]

not really hyped up about goblin caves since im not fan of solo gamemodes nor singleplayer games

[olive kettle]

skill issue

[obtuse lichen]

boring issue

[patent mauve]

Goblin caves is a barbarian wasteland, it looks like they're opening it up in more areas for all classes to enjoy.

[lucid salmon]

Rangers are going to clean up in that room

[tulip grotto]

a good way to solve the lack of real fighting and basically anything but pve past the first floor of the dungeon would be to populate the following layers with multiple raids until its at full capacity - basically when you go down a layer you merge servers with other people going down a layer until there is a full server. Would make going down layers feel a lot better and more interesting. Could be a nightmare for disconnects or losing loot if done improperly though

I really do think that would solve a lot of the problems with there being not many incentives to go down layers while keeping the core of the game

[arctic lagoon]

they should add a "wizards only fool" emote

[wispy viper]

I would like to see a named npc / questgiver named Nixon with a gavel stuck in his head.

[arctic lagoon]

nah id say a unique spawn that runs around with insane gold drops that has the most annoying move set

if it was a giant spike panel, id feel more ok with it but its literally a DOT

[ebon valve]

I think with a 2 level map it works with just a single "lobby". but a map with more floors like a 3 4 or 5 level map would maybe need a second lobby to fill up with new players.

[rigid prawn]

depends what they decide to do with the later levels. Based on hell being filled with difficult monsters and bosses, wouldnt be suprised if seeing less people is intentional as the game shifts frome pvp to more difficult pve. Especially when were talking about additional levels like 4-5. Dragon boss when?

[tawny python]

the rogue is sdf is actually a paid actor .

[tulip grotto]

thats true but atm the levels below just feel empty and unexciting when you pretty much never run into other people. Less risk and more just endlessly shooting dumb pve. Pve would have to become significantly more challenging in a way that is more interesting than just more damage + health

[rigid prawn]

to each their own i guess, i enjoy the hell monster variety. as the game expands they will only add more monsters and intelligent monsters like orcs will hopefully be harder to fight. You can already see a little bit of this in the goblin caves where the goblins will bait you into chasing them. only works a few times but its still a sign of intelligent ai.

[tulip grotto]

yeah that definitely would be cool. I think merging lobbys would be quite good even for the later levels like 4-5 too just cus it would be almost guaranteed to never see any other groups on those levels and for keeping long term interest in the game it would make those levels more challenging + have the randomness between matches - not just running into rooms knowing every single mob and interaction in there @rigid prawn

I mainly think its a good idea just cus of the response to the first level being implemented last playtest. A lot of people liked the second level combat and feel and there wasnt much of that at all in the start of the playtest cus there was nobody down there. It would also kinda turn every match into a high roller match cus there would be high roller level fights on the second floor(since everyone in that raid wouldve already collected the loot of a level) without there having to be a different catagory for high roller

idk why ive suddenly become passionate about this idea cus I dont talk in discord at all but I would really like to see it implemented

should it ever be released that it is

[rigid prawn]

thats a fair point, if they designed a boss around teaming up with other teams or something it would be almost required to merge lobbys to make sure the opputrunity was even there lol.

The longer the game is in limbo, the longer the devs have to work on it, silver lining.

[lone crescent]

Guys the Rogue in sdf's video uses double jump only once, probably they put a cooldown

[rigid prawn]

[graceful frost]

I would assume it has a cooldown or something. One thing is i wish they added a sound to it so you knew when a nearby rogue did it. Say a rogue is jumping around ruins above you

[obtuse lichen]

I pretty sure devs said they will make max 3 floors per map
And i think it's enough
It's better to make like 4-5 maps with 2-3 floors or even 1 floor than making 5 floored map for no reason if you already have full inventory after 2 floors
Most of the people just won't go deeper than 2nd floor unless it's forced
Merging lobbies is a questionable idea as well because i personally don't wanna sit and wait in que between floors

[summer drift]

Multiple floors per map gives you a much better chance to add challenging pve. I like it

[obtuse lichen]

Just play highroller

or harder maps

with 5 floors system the game needs complete overhaul

[summer drift]

Highroller is for sweaty pvp gamers, I'm not gonna go there on starting gear to lose money

[obtuse lichen]

this game is pvpve not pve

[summer drift]

It sounds a lot like you enjoy the pvp aspect more than pve

[obtuse lichen]

I enjoy both aspects of the game just don't see any reason for maps with more than 3 floors

[bleak dagger]

I want sockets in my armor, so I can put in those sweet gems we find in the dungeon. (totally new idea btw)

[summer drift]

I haven't tried it so I have no idea whether it would be bad or not. But 3 seems like a good number to me unless the maps become a lot smaller/faster

I feel like there's a certain rush of adrenaline that you get when you're forced to take a red portal from not finding blues. I think it may benefit this game to have more progressively dangerous maps you don't want to go to

Currently when you reach the last depth if you don't find a blue portal you're just screwed

[obtuse lichen]

And 12 minutes is a bit to fast for pvpve based game sometimes
Ideally i think it should be 15 minutes per floor

Just dont know you are going to clear more challenging mobs quickly with than amount of the time

[summer drift]

Maybe it could be an advantage to have different maps with different lengths. The goblin caves play much faster overall for example

[obtuse lichen]

Especially without ranged chars

[spice sigil]

There is no down side to more than three floors just don't go there if you don't want to. The game's difficulty is chosen by you. So it's perfectly reasonable to just not go to those floors. But other people still could.

[spice sigil]

This is why more floors could be cool. It just keeps amping the adrenaline rather than just having to accept the fact you're dead. You can have epic moments of making it out when you otherwise would not have.

[obtuse lichen]

@spice sigil it breaks economy + not neseccary change because like 10% gonna go for it
IMO waste of the resources

And if you couldn't escape from 2 floors in a row
what can i say just git dut

Or just be straight up useless if floors deeper than 3 not going to have like purple loot laying around by default

[spice sigil]

I think one or two MASSIVE maps would be cool then some shorter ones

[obtuse lichen]

You can make it bigger by increasing floors size and not floors count

[spice sigil]

I want a real mega dungeon like 10 floors. Get that feeling of playing dnd again for the first time...

[obtuse lichen]

keep dreaming i guess

[spice sigil]

thats fair but its not quite the same. O I have an idea! What about a floor with 10 floors but each of the floors could be very small. Now that would be some fun gameplay.

[obtuse lichen]

🤬

[spice sigil]

kindda like a really fast paced mode. As close as we are gonna get to TDM or might and magic dark messiah MP again

[obtuse lichen]

👍🏿

[summer drift]

Exactly. Deeper floors are scary as sin, but when you make it would it would feel a lot more rewarding. And to some people they would focus more on going deeper with better gear to get better loot

[spice sigil]

agreed

[obtuse lichen]

Like whats the problem with just going highroller are you that scared of pvp?

This game isn't going to be purely pve based just get over it

[summer drift]

I couldn't have said it any better. More risk more reward

[spice sigil]

ALSO floors can get smaller and smaller as you go down to cut down on time, wasted resources, and time gaps between players since not every player has that much time! Its perfect!

The devs can just steal from real dnd for this. At least in my experience floors tend to get smaller and smaller as you go down since other things get more complex such as the players ability s and the complexity of the monsters. So its only nature that deeper floors get smaller.

[summer drift]

See, the thing is. You like PVP more than PVE. I'm the opposite. They shouldn't make the game entirely to your taste when other players won't play the same way you do.

[obtuse lichen]

Cut where it's already 12 minutes
Or do you suggest to make like 4 room floor with 3 minutes timer or what?

[summer drift]

You could do that. Maybe the bottom most floor is straight up a boss fight

[spice sigil]

its not about being scared its about being smart. It is HARD to live long enough to get down to the next floor. That is enough of a challenge.

No one is attacking you. Your points are vaild. makeing floors smaller but harder as you go down fixes the issues you have brought up. It increases the amount of pvp on those floors AND fills the needs of players who want even hard monsters and more challenging traps and stuff.

[obtuse lichen]

This whole convesation is pointless.

[spice sigil]

you could make it a format so it would be much easier to manage. Each floor could lose another two min or three.

[obtuse lichen]

#suggestion-discussion message
a lot of the people like you already were suggesting ideas like that and they were hardly downvoted and disapproved

[spice sigil]

players could kill bosses to get more time added to a floor for all players? Both giveing them more time to loot but also increased risk of players being able to kill the players who killed the boos leading to some intense combat.

[obtuse lichen]

You are just trying to create a complete different game at that point

[summer drift]

So if someone likes a different aspect of the game more than you do they're trying to make a different game and their opinion isn't valid?

[obtuse lichen]

Im down to see events like that but as the part of the main gamemodes hell no

[obtuse lichen]

what are you on about

[summer drift]

You keep trying to dismiss his opinion by saying "this game is pvpve, it shouldn't focus on pve more" or "game events are cool but that's not what the game is about"

How do you know this? You're not a dev, we're just making suggestions based on assumptions

[obtuse lichen]

facepalm

[summer drift]

We don't really know if IM is trying to cater to different experiences or not, but plenty of people have expressed liking pvp less than pve

[spice sigil]

what, no I am not..... All it is, is adding more floors.... Every floor needs to have different design ideas and dialog in order to create the best game.

I am not fighting you. We want the same thing.

You want more pvp, so do I smaller floors that people would only go to when they looking for a fight is what you want. And I want more floors with more challenging traps and monsters and as you want as well more PVP.

We want the same thing...

I want more stuff than just more pvp but I also want more pvp. I just want more depth to the game. Their is no downside.

The more maps we have the more ways we can pvp and the game will be more fun.

What we both want is emergent gameplay. This leads to that...

[obtuse lichen]

I already explained to why making more floors isn't great idea

[summer drift]

That's an opinion. That doesn't mean you're right. At least don't make it seem like you're fighting my guy over here.

[obtuse lichen]

Just look at the amount of the players that go for inferno floor its like 20% max

[spice sigil]

Also. I do think the pvp makes the game work better than it would without it. That dose not mean there should not be maps that are mostly pve and vice versa.

Do you not want a pvp only floor with some crazy underwater element? That sounds like a blast! They need to add more crazy things.

The devs should feel free to go ALL OUT. high fantasy, crazy level design. Thats the sort of thing that keeps a game alive.

[obtuse lichen]

Read devs q-a

[spice sigil]

the newest video is a great example! They are makeing new maps and that is great!!!

[summer drift]

I do respect the idea that we should focus on not spending too many dev resources on features that won't be played as often, but wanting more content is definitely a good sentiment to have. I think the devs benefit from alternative ideas.

[obtuse lichen]

They already told that 2-3 floors is the way to go

[spice sigil]

can you link the msg

[obtuse lichen]

Exacly having more content is fun but making 5 floored maps is just lack of the resources most of the people just check it out once and thats it

[spice sigil]

also ideas can change the game is still early in dev time my guy.

[summer drift]

I think George has a point. If maps were shorter people would be a lot more likely to go down. But we'll never have data to prove it if they don't try it, so we can only speculate

If there were a vertical map focused entirely on exploring shorter floors I can guarantee you it would feel more like a rush to the finish type of map to most players. Just replace red portals with stairs.

[obtuse lichen]

Maps will feel empty with 5 floors because loot needs to be placed evenly
or they will be a complete menace for economy if not

[summer drift]

Bro have you seen the treasure hoards? Maps are not always evenly distributed 😂 People will always find a way to abuse economy, they just have to nerf that

[compact barn]

I want a harder floor than the hell level. Where more and more pve spawns are black variants or harder

[summer drift]

Some people go to B2 (not even highroller) just to tap the free treasure hoard in the centaur room

[summer drift]

https://tenor.com/view/pacha-okay-great-meme-just-perfect-gif-16605517

[obtuse lichen]

Just explain to me why you dont want to make new highroller map with diffent mobs instead of 5 floors maps?

[summer drift]

I don't wanna play with sweaty pvp gamers all the time. I'd rather not play highroller if I just wanna have fun with buddies, especially those who are new to the game

[spice sigil]

they are clearly open to trying new things like the really cool blue map. I hope they add more cool stuff like that. Maybe not messing with the lighting to much but man there SO MANY THINGS YOU CAN DO WITH DUNGEONS!!!

Like the whole reason why D&D got so big was the staggering amount of freedom dms had with their ability's to make dungeon's!

And The devs are basically the dm in this case. They have that same freedom.

MAN It would be so sick to have map that is like a massive stair case with crazy multi floor fights with all sorts of spells and close combat on the steps! With a race to the bottom vibe for massve loots!!!!

[obtuse lichen]

Thats not your game then

[summer drift]

Dark and Darker doesn't belong to you my brother. Just go play Hunt, that game is more pvp focused (the NPC enemies are a joke in it).

[spice sigil]

its your game then either, its no ones game, its a community-based game. We all deserve to have spaces for other realms of play. Its ok to have pvp focused modes and some modes without it!

[obtuse lichen]

Just look at the suggestions similar to yours they got downvoted hardly

[summer drift]

Feel free to link some. You can copy message links

[obtuse lichen]

Not going to waste my time with pointing out obvious

[spice sigil]

No one wants to take away your pvp they just want to add to the experience over all.

its ok for the devs you can try other maps.

Please send me some of these messages so I can learn from them. And see people good counter arguments to them.

[summer drift]

Not everyone in this game is an elitist who gets off of killing other players, that's all I'll say. I like my loot goblin gameplay.

[obtuse lichen]

Stay cornered in fear like a rat

[summer drift]

https://tenor.com/view/remember-that-remember-batman-bad-guy-i-will-remember-that-gif-11943514

[spice sigil]

wha bro I want to believe you. I want you to show me where the flaws in my idea is but if you cant do that then I hold my stance.

Sorry if you felt attacked man just sharing ideas.

No one is saying get rid of pvp. That would be very foolish. People just want to see this game taken to its limits since its so epic.

To end it here I will say this. We want the same thing. some smaller more focused maps only get you more of what you want which is that juicy, high intensity GAME PLAY,

[gaunt cargo]

It's the dev's game, and their vision should be respected. You don't deserve anything from them in terms of design.

[summer drift]

This channel is called "suggestions" for a reason. Nobody here is feeling entitled to anything

Except the people who claim they know what the direction of the game should be, if that sounds familiar 😉

[obtuse lichen]

you just keep spouting non sense
a lot of the players like this game for the way it is rn and how its balanced in pvpve aspects
Im tired to keep saying that it's pointless to waste resources on this 5% players that want this game be more pve based

[spice sigil]

agreed. But its hard to deny that its a bad idea to at least think about what me and GreenKnight of the Line are saying.

I am not demanding I am saying that some players deserve to have some pvp maps since that's what they want and some pve maps since that's what they want.

making people to play together who dont wanna is not good for any game.

[spice sigil]

more floors adds more pvp too.

[obtuse lichen]

it's not unless it has queue in between floors

[summer drift]

If you want more pvp you play Highroller, that's an undeniable fact. There's nothing wrong with adding things that aren't highroller maps, as long as they cover all the bases.

[spice sigil]

why not add new maps then high roller maps of those new maps! everyone wins!

[summer drift]

This is not necessarily true. You can have less blue portals per floor and smaller maps and you'd have more pvp

[gaunt cargo]

If you can't see the entitlement in his message, then this going nowhere. Suggest and discuss all you want, but implying you "deserve" to be catered to from a game you don't own and haven't paid for is nonsense.

[summer drift]

IIRC in Playtest 4 they added a smaller map for highroller. I don't remember exactly what it was called.

[obtuse lichen]

Look at the #d-and-d-suggestions chat people like you get downvoted badly

[summer drift]

I don't think George is acting entitled to anything

[obtuse lichen]

It's like a conversation that we had yesterday about longsword on the ranger

[summer drift]

In the end it'll be the devs that decide if they should try something or not, and not us. He's not "demanding" anything

[obtuse lichen]

Sometimes i wish they still had opened suggestions so people can actually see that their idea is shit

[summer drift]

You're just being rude man. I know you have good intentions, but that's not a way to have a conversation, especially after you said it's pointless to talk about it.

[spice sigil]

More maps is better for pvp. I DO NOT wanna fight in the howling crypts forever. The howling crypts are great and I love them. But new maps dont hurt anyone. And new floors dont hurt anyone.

I love howling crypts and I will be playing on them for years when the game comes out. but new maps will be needed its a good idea to talk about they can make them new and engaging.

[obtuse lichen]

Because we are running in circles

[summer drift]

I suggest we just leave this conversation here and chill.

[spice sigil]

we should all play some dark and darker when it comes out to see whos right on the field of combat! ahahahahahah

[obtuse lichen]

More maps are going to be added soon + move variants of the existing ones

[spice sigil]

epic!

[obtuse lichen]

Check devs q-a

Ruins are probably going to be reworked as well

[gaunt cargo]

Did you read the message? This game isn't a "community-based" game and he's stating that everyone "deserves to have spaces" for their type of play. That's entitlement.

[summer drift]

That's his opinion.

[gaunt cargo]

Entitlement is a product of opinions.

[obtuse lichen]

It's easier to add more layouts to existing maps rather than implementing new floors or maps
because every map or floor needs to have their own unique atmosphere and feeling

[summer drift]

I think it's community based in the sense that people can vote for suggestions. That has to be worth anything. If the devs decided to add something you don't like into the game you'd speak up

[summer drift]

From the perspective of getting more stuff done quickly as a game dev I totally agree with you here. They should never spread themselves thin on new features

I actually think it's not a good idea to focus on adding a lot more classes into the game than what we have now, because balancing will take so much more work if they do.

[obtuse lichen]

or you will end with floors like oh this floor has blue sand this floor has normal sand

[obtuse lichen]

yes

people will still play the same comp despite bard buff probably

[compact barn]

They have space to add more classes still. But if they're actually gonna add a subclass system they won't need very many more because the variety will already be high

[gaunt cargo]

Entitled players are what cause games with good, focused design and game play to flush their vision down the drain, losing their core audience who actually appreciated their vision.
Like I said, I have no problem with anyone suggesting or debating anything, as long as they don't think there's some kind of moral imperative for the devs to include their opposing game play desires.

[compact barn]

They did say they were gonna add all the base classes in D&D I thought right?

[obtuse lichen]

i dont remember that

[compact barn]

Was back in one of the q&a's around playtest 2/3 I think

Druid and Paladin likely too come still but not sure if there's more than that? I'm not well versed on D&D stuff lol

[obtuse lichen]

Like I told yesterday you can't apply tabletop rules and will be the long way to go until we see all the classes well balanced and available in DaD

[rugged eagle]

https://youtu.be/uKULTFV9HRM?t=508 The initial idea for the classes are here so any could be added

[compact barn]

Yeah they talked about it as well in the Pestily q&a

[rugged eagle]

Not sure how they plan to implement artificer but the rest sound cool

[obtuse lichen]

They might not add some classes at all if it breaks the balance
and just give more options to other classes like cleric gained in pt 5 passive armor armor skill and stuff like that

[rugged eagle]

We don't really know if any of this stuff has changed which is why I'm patiently waiting for the next dev qna 🙏

[compact barn]

Balancing is an active effort throughout all games lives when it's a PvP focused multiplayer. Worrying about breaking balance is a non issue when they will be actively addressing balance throughout the life of the game

[obtuse lichen]

Yeah but having locust swarmed wasn't really pleasant experience

[compact barn]

Locust swarm wasn't a balancing issue it was bugged on release to live I thought. It got adjusted within a day while playing through a torrent even

But I understand what you mean, having the game break while adding new things is unenjoyable I agree with that completely. Hopefully they take a slow and measured approach to keeping things in check while adding new content

[obtuse lichen]

Every change needs to be properly tested before pushing it into main client

[summer drift]

That's because they suck 😭

[obtuse lichen]

If felt like bard was really rushed in pt 5

He had 2 spell memories that weren't even usable since he couldn't change notes

[summer drift]

I don't wanna see any new classes until the bard is worth playing honestly

[compact barn]

I think bard will be significantly better when EA drops

[glacial sphinx]

I think Bard was pretty cool and had its own unique strengths, I enjoyed some moments even soloing on it, but certain mechanics were too clunky for pvp situations

[summer drift]

Some classes in D&D will be straight up unbalanced if they wanted it to be like the tabletop. Paladins stacking infinite amounts of smite killing in one hit, etc. They would have to make so many changes to make it balanced it's not worth it rn imo

[obtuse lichen]

I think they should not add warlock even if it's ''ready'' and balance out the bard properly instead

[compact barn]

Don't think they ever mentioned straight up implementing tabletop styled mechanics, just that they want to include the classes as the basis for characters from D&D

[glacial sphinx]

spending a lot of time on balancing when you potentially have a talent tree upcoming that will upset that balance can be time wasted. It has to be playable and fun right now, so people aren't turned off the game but other than that balance is secondary

[obtuse lichen]

Every class is pretty much in a good spot rn except bard

[rugged eagle]

We're probably going to get finished Bard and Warlock for EA especially since they're taking a bit of extra time working on EA

[obtuse lichen]

it's not like they just drop talent tree without any testing

[summer drift]

💯

[obtuse lichen]

no one knows what talent tree will be

Is it going to buff you character or simply unlock some stuff so you can develop 2 different fighters with different passives skills and equipment

or simply just upgrade existing perks and skills

[glacial sphinx]

honestly think it should be pretty minor stuff and very limited power creep. Maybe some kiss/curse effects to keep differences in power reasonable

[obtuse lichen]

No one knows if multiclass system will actually be needed with talent tree

[obtuse lichen]

I think they might lock some passives and perks behind a skill tree so you need to lvl up and maybe even pay before you can use them
and keep some basic ones that doesn't require unlock

Or maybe add weapon masteries nobody knows

It a huge ❓ rn
I don't want to see the game as hard as POE management system but at the same time not that easy as D2 system

[glacial sphinx]

locking them behind the skilltree was the initial plan, but I think an interview mentioned they were pulling back from that idea a little seeing how much people enjoyed immediately being able to customize

[obtuse lichen]

Well since you can create different chars it's not a problem i think

[glacial sphinx]

it can be from a perspective of player retention, if people find it more fun when they can immediately make some choices then putting those behind a level grind might not be the right choice.